[Deck] Belcher

[dlevsApiJ]

That's what i said in my first post to you -.- ... And you know that i mean 4 Swarms...

And if you have testes it, you see you dont have problems with 4 Pyroblast main, 50% of the decks play FoW, and something against that is really good. Eventually, you can imprint him on a Chrome, and if you have 1 mana to much, you can make your storm 1 higher.. Please test is before you say things.. Than you can play 4 Xantid Swarms in the slots...

Mvg

[FredMaster]

And if you have testes it, you see you dont have problems with 4 Pyroblast main, 50% of the decks play FoW, and something against that is really good.
Matter of fact, my meta doesn't contain 50% Decks with FoW in it.
I mentioned that earlier, if u would have read, what i said.
And yes i know you mean 4 Swarms. But:
1. Write, what you mean.
2. Swarms can be countered/dazed as well. It makes no difference.

The important third one:
I will not play the Xantid Swarm in MD. And i don't have 4 SB slots for it either. And i really prefer drawing a LED, Belcher, Wish or anything else than just a bad Pyroblast having a Goldfish.
I just don't exspect much hate in shape of Countermagic coming at me [b ] .[/ b]

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

I think black isnt good enough, with the main reason that Bayou isnt a mountain, and 1 land is much better (i have already said other reasons before..).

Pyroblast is much better than Red Elemental Blast, cause you can play it on a non blue spell/permanent for storm.

Your SB is very nice, but i like to play 4 Xantid Swarm, cause its the best answer the counter...

4 Spree is also very good, you can board in 3 and leave 1 for a Wish against CotV/Trinisphere/etc.

Mvg

|


While I agree that black isn't good enough, I would like to suggest two Taigas. It has been discussed before, and I still stand behind the idea. Ever since I have switched from one to two Taigas, I have loved it. The slight increase in Belcher fizzling is well worth the reward of the second land. It is SOOOO helpful when you need to rebuild your mana and recover from a failed combo attempt. As the game drags on, the second Taiga really shines.


EDIT: It also makes dubs Land Grant not suck.

[Brehn]

Seems like you've never played against a deck running blue... The Duress is the card, the Wishboard relies on - apart from the EtW plan.

Assuming you're on the play vs Threshold. You play a Land and 2 ritual effects (or Petals) to go Wish -> Duress and grab one counter. Second turn you have 4 cards in your hand and 1 mana source available (if you cast Chrome Mox first turn you would have 3 cards and 2 mana sources available, I don't think that would change the situation).

If you go for EtW now you will not create more than 10 tokens. If they play a single creature, you will not win before turn 5. Let's check: Engineered Explosives and Pyroclasm are killing you. Playing two creatures and blocking also is enough. Why didn't you just go for EtW for 12 tokens on turn one?

If you go for Belcher now you can't activate it unless you have LED. If you have just drawn LED, Wish->Duress was a clear misplay on turn 1 because you wasted two Rits + Wish without having a 2nd turn kill / huge Goblin Army for sure.

So the only situation I can imagine is: Land, Belcher, Burning Wish, Ritual, Ritual, LED, 1 other card in your starting hand. If the other card produces mana, you could have gone for the turn 1 kill (and maybe losing to Force) instead of opening yourself to Needle, Daze and $Cantrip -> FoW/Daze (the odds are a bit higher, I think). If the other card doesn't produce mana, you would have certainly not wasted your only 2 Ritual effects on something like Duress.

Conclusion: No, I don't see, why the wishboard totally _relies_ on Duress. Explain. If I play a blue deck I either try to go off turn 1 and pray or I rely on Xantid Swarm and Pyroblast.

[Jak]

Against a deck like thresh, why would you want to try and go off fast and walk into a force. Just build up your hand with the spells needed to win and protection. Wishing for Duress is great in all combo decks, allowing to see their hand. Against control decks and thresh I will usually play it slow and wish for duress.

[dlevsApiJ]

2. Swarms can be countered/dazed as well. It makes no difference.
[b ] .[/ b]

What's the difference between countered and dazed? daze also counters... (of i may not make a mistake you also may not..)


But most of the time they dont have 2 counters... and when they have,, they have 1 less :).

Mvg

[Brehn]

Belcher goes off fast, very fast, very often turn 1. That's why everybody fears it: its speed. With this deck you do not benefit from slowrolling - your opponent is drawing answers, you are drawing nothing. Thresh can build up their hand quite impressively, give them 2 or 3 turns, then stare at the Needle on Belcher while Duress reveals Daze, FoW and Explosives. Even if you are playing a protection-heavy build (4 Pyroblast, 4 Xantid Swarms), you should realize your 11 winning conditions (4 Belcher, 3 EtW, 4 Wish) become 4. You can't win with a turn 4 Empty the Warrens so you have to go for Belcher, need 7 Mana and get owned by Force of Will, Daze, Counterspell and Stifle -- need quite a lot of Pyroblast for that, so more than 7 Mana are necessary. Could you explain your strategy here, are you playing 4 Xantid Swarms and relying on them?

Also, you are claiming, "wishing for Duress is great in all combo decks". In my last post I explained why I can't see the greatness of casting Duress at the cost of two cards. Could you give an example situation, when you would wish for Duress?

[Kronicler]

1st turn: ETW for a bunch.
2nd turn: Wish for Duress and cast it (you will need some lands / accel for this), take that clasm/explosives out of their hand.
3rd turn: Win a game you would have otherwise lost.

I do have to say though that B-Wish for Duress seems better in TES than it does here because we will most likely drop lands on both turn 1 and 2, meaning we only need 1 mana from accel to cast both wish and duress. That might be a bit harder here.

Kronicler

[Nihil Credo]

1st turn: ETW for a bunch.
2nd turn: Wish for Duress and cast it (you will need some lands / accel for this), take that clasm/explosives out of their hand.
3rd turn: Win a game you would have otherwise lost.
Goblin War Strike does the same thing, only better because it doesn't let them topdeck another EE/Clasm or Brainstorm it back to the top of their library.

[NANTUKO_SHADY]

Honestly... why just randomly stall out the game a turn when you can just end it???

[Slay]

Because the Clasm/Explosives can be taken before you play EtW, in the late game.
-Slay

[Nihil Credo]

What is this "late game" that you speak of?

[dlevsApiJ]

I'm thinking/testing to play 4 Xantid Swarm main instead of 4 Pyroblast, who were gonne to side now (in the slots of the the Swarms)..
But i dont know whats better (even not with testing), the reasons you (dont) want to play him main:

Swarm main:
reasons why you want:
- It stops more then 1 counter.
- You play it a turn (ore more turns) before you combo, so you dont have to use 1 mana when you combo.

reasons why you dont want:
- You only want to cast it whit a permenant that makes mana, when you play it with Lotus Petal, you have 1 mana less when comboing
- Does nothing against MM ore something (but u have Bwish)
- Its not good if the other player has 1 STP and 1 Counter.. (Pyroblast will work in this situation of you have enough mana)
- Sometimes you play it turn 1 in game 1 (instead of winning turn 1, if you could), when you dont know what the other should play (afraid of counter), and then you see the other also play Combo and wins turn 1, or thing like CotV ore Trini turn 1.

Are there people who have tested him? And have good reasons to (dont) play him main....


Mvg

[BreathWeapon]

Yes, Xantid Swarm Time Walks the opponent into his Meddling Mage Counterbalance, Gaddok Teeg or Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void, Xantid Swarm can be countered with creature removal, there's more R mana than G mana etc.

Blasts are the best possible disruption card.

[Bane of the Living]

Dont forget blast is a nice maindeck card against Cephalid Illisionist and can target your non red spells to up storm count against non red decks. It also pitches to Cave In. (Red FoW arguement!)

I actually think a way to destroy artifacts maindeck is the tech right now. Everyone is relying on Needle easily stopping Belcher.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yes, Xantid Swarm Time Walks the opponent into his Meddling Mage Counterbalance, Gaddok Teeg or Pernicious Deed, Pithing Needle or Chalice of the Void, Xantid Swarm can be countered with creature removal, there's more R mana than G mana etc.

Blasts are the best possible disruption card.

Most of that cards arent even stopped by Pyrblast, but i see your points :).
It's also good against Breakfast, yes, havent thought about that (but in my meta in Holland, nobody plays it, but i think in the future people will, cause it is so good). And that it can add stormcount, Swarm can also (but green mana is hard to get/keep while comboing).

Yes, with the things you say, i think the Pyroblast's are coming back main:)

Mvg

[badjuju]

Hey guys,

I'm new to Legacy, but I'm hoping to pick up and participate in some local tourneys soon. Naturally, I don't have access to many dual lands (most of my buddies are T2 players), so I picked something that A) I saw place in several top 8's and B) was a bit cheaper to make. Killing fast is a plus :P

Anyways I put together a quick version and did some goldfishing and I like how the deck plays out. I think the deck takes a bit more knowledge and skill than people give it credit for, although it's definitely less of a brain-strain compared to the other combo decks. (Mostly just knowing and maximizing your option trees from any given hand, and when to ship it.)
The past few pages haven't had any updated decklists. Sorry if these are repeats, but I think it's about time we compiled some recent placing belcher lists:


' Belcher ' by Javier Sánchez Soriano
Event: 1 Torneo Liga Petrerense de Legacy
Date: 30.09.2007
Place: 6th
Participants: 40

creature [16]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor

instant [12]

4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

sorcery [16]

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Land Grant
3 Rite of Flame

artifact [15]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Sideboard:

1 Pyroclasm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rite of Flame
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Duress
2 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach


' Belcher ' by Tsuda Yuugo
Event: Ancient Memory Convention #28
Date: 23.09.2007
Place: 4th
Participants: 51

creature [16]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Welder
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

instant [11]

4 Desperate Ritual
3 Pyroblast
4 Seething Song

sorcery [15]

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

artifact [16]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

2 Taiga

Sideboard:

4 Pact of Negation
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Simplify
4 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony

' CRET Belcher ' by Andreas Rössler
Event: Bazaar-Liga Legacy September 2007
Date: 16.09.2007
Place: 2nd
Participants: 76

creature [19]

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
3 Wild Cantor

instant [8]

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

sorcery [15]

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

artifact [16]

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

2 Taiga

Sideboard:

1 Empty the Warrens
3 Shattering Spree
1 Cave-In
1 Simplify
4 Dark Confidant
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Bayou


So you have successful decklists on all fronts:
A) with the inclusion of MD Infernal Tutors
B) with the inclusion of Welders and MD Pyros (with pacts in the board)
C) with the inclusion of Street Wrath (-Dark Rituals)

The most impressive placement is deck C, coming 2nd in a field of 76. It also happens to be my favorite variant so far for a few reasons:

-Street Wraith has been tested. According to PR's analysis, SW actually helped more hands than it hurt (4 help, 2 hurt, 8 unaffected by a sample size of 14). What it does is effectively make the deck 56 cards.
-Dark Ritual was always iffy especially with its dependence on Bayou and Cantor. By removing it you may lose some gas in the long run but you increase your consistency.
-Removal of Dark Ritual also means the removal of Bayou. I don't know about you guys, but I actually hit Bayou more times than I had expected while goldfishing. I'm not sure how this actually plays out in real tournaments, but giving your opponent an extra turn is never a good thing. A small chance to hit a Bayou is still a chance, and minimizing all chances of losing (in this case by exchanging one card) seems like an obvious decision.

I personally never really liked Infernal Tutor because it was always a mana sink, the situations where you tutor for more mana accelerant aren't as common as people claim they are, and sometimes you're stuck with the other kill card you CAN'T cast in your hand, so you can't hellbent tutor up the alternative.

Ok I don't know what's up with the board, but I guess it worked for him. It's pretty creative and lets you bounce back into the game with Confidant. I'd give it a shot at least, just to see what kind of results come up.

The other decks I'll leave for you guys to discuss amongst each other, but from what we can assume all variants are viable and it may just come down to preference or what you're accustomed to. I'd like to see what you guys think of the Japanese list that has welders and pacts. Seems like it's pretty well equipped to fight hate: should we take note?

It's late, sorry if my sentence structures sucked.

[Tacosnape]

Pact of Negation is a retarded and horrible idea for a deck that doesn't necessarily kill on the same turn it goes off. Pact + ETW doesn't work at all, and Pact + Belcher + Activate has the distant chance of hitting a land and killing you as a result, whereas hitting the land under normal circumstances means you merely have to work your way up to 3 mana to finish the opponent off.

Also, I absolutely -love- Build C. I think it's fantastic. Our playgroup has long since given up on Black maindeck in Belcher, and the sideboard of Confidant/Therapy/Bayou is a questionable but fascinating idea.

[Brehn]

Yeah, Pact of Negation sucks.

Build A seems to be really bad -- black splash only for Infernal Tutor (does he do anything without LED?), Rite of Flame in the Wishboard (wtf?). Build B wastes slots for Goblin Welder, who won't do anything.

My build is similiar to build C, mainboard I have
-1 Taiga (1 land seems to be enough)
-3 Wild Cantor (meta choice)
+4 Pyroblast (meta choice)

I don't think the "transformational" black splash is worth it as Black was cut from the lists for some reason. Dark Confidant was dismissed in TES, how bad must it be in Belcher then? A non-transformational sideboard for a RG-version would be like this:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike (<-- great)
1 Hull Breach
1 Simplify
1 Cave-In
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 random slots (more REB, maybe Infernal Tutor, Pyroclasm or Xantid Swarm [I'm not a friend of this]) - obv 4 Pyroblast if not maindecked

[lloydrage]

I am building this deck right now, do I go for the version with dark ritual or without?

thanks

[Nihil Credo]

I say go straight R/G, and fill the DR slots with Street Wraiths or Pyroblasts (depending on the meta). In addition to the danger of hitting a Bayou and multiple Time Walking your opponent, more hands are ruined by Ritual's colour screw than are saved by its +2 mana production.

[lloydrage]

thanks Nihil, I will build that.

do you have an example decklist with sideboard?

thanks again

[Brehn]

My list:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall

4 Street Wraith
4 Pyroblast

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

====

1 Empty the Warrens
4 Shattering Spree
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Simplify
1 Grapeshot
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wild Cantor

[Nihil Credo]

My current list is very close to Brehn's. I just run +1 Taiga, -1 Pyroblast in the maindeck, and +1 REB, -1 Wild Cantor in the SB.

[lloydrage]

quick question, why run street wraith? Isnt mana better there?

as always thanks

[Brehn]

There are no replacements in the colors that actually net you mana, so you run Street Wraith to cycle it into mana (and sometimes an alternative win condition). Some people play Wild Cantor in his place, which is effectively just +1 storm. In the black build, Cantor is also used as a mana fixer though.

[lloydrage]

is there a primer for this deck?

[Nihil Credo]

1) Do about 100 goldfishes.
2) Be good at guessing whether your opponent has countermagic/EE in hand.

That is just about all that is needed to pilot this deck well.

[lloydrage]

ok, was just hoping for some more info :)

thanks though

[badjuju]

ok, was just hoping for some more info :)

thanks though

That's really all the information you need. The deck doesn't take an especially large amount of thinking to play, just become comfortable with your mana production spells and win conditions, do some simple math, and know what to expect against certain deck archetypes.

The more you goldfish the deck the more familiar you become with what hands to keep and what not to keep. After a while, you start seeing cards as fixer, one mana gain, two mana gain, LED as post wish or belcher mana, etc etc. After you know all the possible combinations, you can decide whether or not you should mulligan with only a quick glance at what your opening hand is.

For Nihil's second suggestion, that's something you're going to have to work on over time. Knowing your matchups (especially game 2) is extremely crucial. First game you will goldfish more than half the time based on the fact that most decks aren't well equipped (besides blue-based ones) to counter a turn 1 belcher activation or even 10+ EtW tokens. When you head into game 2, all sorts of hate comes in, and that's when you'll have to judge whether or not your hand is A) resilient enough to fight past hate B) has enough disruption to push your combo through C) not good enough and in need of a mulligan.

If you're not for ballsy decks, I don't think you should play this. It really is hit and miss, and if you play against blue-based control and hate cards all day you're probably not going to do as well. However, it is fast and consistent which, on the other hand, makes your opponent mulligan and play according to your rules. The fear of dying on the first turn alone makes this deck a menacing threat.

Oh yea, a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Street Wraith's function. You're asking if mana should replace him? Well then, what kind of mana are you talking about? All the best red mana production spell are already in this deck (one's that net you +1 or +2 red) and by running Street Wraith you are effectively cutting down your deck to 56 cards and increasing the chances that you'll draw the good mana production spells.

[lloydrage]

That's really all the information you need. The deck doesn't take an especially large amount of thinking to play, just become comfortable with your mana production spells and win conditions, do some simple math, and know what to expect against certain deck archetypes.

The more you goldfish the deck the more familiar you become with what hands to keep and what not to keep. After a while, you start seeing cards as fixer, one mana gain, two mana gain, LED as post wish or belcher mana, etc etc. After you know all the possible combinations, you can decide whether or not you should mulligan with only a quick glance at what your opening hand is.

For Nihil's second suggestion, that's something you're going to have to work on over time. Knowing your matchups (especially game 2) is extremely crucial. First game you will goldfish more than half the time based on the fact that most decks aren't well equipped (besides blue-based ones) to counter a turn 1 belcher activation or even 10+ EtW tokens. When you head into game 2, all sorts of hate comes in, and that's when you'll have to judge whether or not your hand is A) resilient enough to fight past hate B) has enough disruption to push your combo through C) not good enough and in need of a mulligan.

If you're not for ballsy decks, I don't think you should play this. It really is hit and miss, and if you play against blue-based control and hate cards all day you're probably not going to do as well. However, it is fast and consistent which, on the other hand, makes your opponent mulligan and play according to your rules. The fear of dying on the first turn alone makes this deck a menacing threat.

Oh yea, a lot of people seem to be misunderstanding Street Wraith's function. You're asking if mana should replace him? Well then, what kind of mana are you talking about? All the best red mana production spell are already in this deck (one's that net you +1 or +2 red) and by running Street Wraith you are effectively cutting down your deck to 56 cards and increasing the chances that you'll draw the good mana production spells.

thanks for the info, that helps a lot

I will start my goldfishing soon

thanks all

[badjuju]

Haha, not much discussion going on for this deck. Guess like there's not much to change anyways.

There are a few variations I'd like to talk about:

1-land versus 2-land thing.
I've found that going down to one Taiga has made my kills much more consistent without actually hurting the lasting power of the deck. Settling for a (hopeful) two-turn kill is pretty gutsy, especially if you don't have permanent mana sources to back up your Belcher.

MD Pyroblast?
Ok, as far as metagame choices go, this is still a piss-poor option IMO. It can get you there, but I find that I am almost always short on mana to cast it should I need to go off in the early turns. Furthermore, if you're going to wait to go off on turns 2 or 3, you're risking running into more than one counterspell, making Pyroblast meh. I don't know, everytime I see that card in my hand I sorta just scratch my head. I'd like to hear from someone who has done well in a tournament running MD Pyroblasts. But then again, there's not really anything else I'd put in that slot.

Anti-Control Card Selection?
Is there any? Or would it just be dumb to run this in a control-heavy metagame? I don't know what I'm talking about, I didn't get enough sleep. I just want to get some discussion rolling. GO!

[lukatron2]

I was just wondering if Pithing Needle was ever considered in the SB against EE and other randomness. I'm sure theres a reason why people don't but I was just wondering. It's probably not worth it and there are better options? I was just thinking that in the aggro control match up sometimes EE is all that can stop your victory?

I really want to put this deck together I just need 3 more Belchers. Do you guys think I should run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith? Also, how do you think this deck fares in a meta with lots of Thresh and some other combo? It seems like it has a decent match-up against most decks other than Stax and such?...Maybe I'm wrong...

[dlevsApiJ]

Haha, not much discussion going on for this deck. Guess like there's not much to change anyways.

There are a few variations I'd like to talk about:

Anti-Control Card Selection?
Is there any? Or would it just be dumb to run this in a control-heavy metagame? I don't know what I'm talking about, I didn't get enough sleep. I just want to get some discussion rolling. GO!

Xantid Swarm...?




Do you guys think I should run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith

SW... WildCantor only gives 1 storm, SW gives you a card that gives you most of the time 1 storm+mana. Cantor is only good when you play black (and playing black is bad IMHO)... You "play 56 cards" with SW...

Mvg

[BreathWeapon]

Haha, not much discussion going on for this deck. Guess like there's not much to change anyways.

There are a few variations I'd like to talk about:

1-land versus 2-land thing.
I've found that going down to one Taiga has made my kills much more consistent without actually hurting the lasting power of the deck. Settling for a (hopeful) two-turn kill is pretty gutsy, especially if you don't have permanent mana sources to back up your Belcher.

MD Pyroblast?
Ok, as far as metagame choices go, this is still a piss-poor option IMO. It can get you there, but I find that I am almost always short on mana to cast it should I need to go off in the early turns. Furthermore, if you're going to wait to go off on turns 2 or 3, you're risking running into more than one counterspell, making Pyroblast meh. I don't know, everytime I see that card in my hand I sorta just scratch my head. I'd like to hear from someone who has done well in a tournament running MD Pyroblasts. But then again, there's not really anything else I'd put in that slot.

Anti-Control Card Selection?
Is there any? Or would it just be dumb to run this in a control-heavy metagame? I don't know what I'm talking about, I didn't get enough sleep. I just want to get some discussion rolling. GO!

I'm running 8 Blasts in the MD, the main reason to run Blasts, let alone 8 Blasts, is that even tho' the deck doesn't have the mana to cast a Blast with 7 cards on average, it doesn't matter, because the deck should just cast its win condition "Blind" if Force of Will is in the opponent's hand less than 40% of the time. However, the deck does have the mana to cast a Bast with 8 cards on average, and this is where Blasts are the most critical, because both Force of Will and Stifle are active, Brainstorm or Ponder increases the odds of Force of Will to 50% and Belcher needs an answer against the combined percentages. Daze is negligible, because even tho' it's active, the extra card Belcher draws offsets it.

If you do have the mana to cast Blast on 7 cards, great, but if not, then use the Blasts to counter cantrips to "Time Walk" your win conditions or counter Counterbalance/Meddling Mage so you can activate your Belcher or get a second chance to combo. Games 2 and 3, the opponent has to go looking for an answer, so he should be mulliganing, and depending on how far he mulligans, you can top deck for the mana to cast your win conditions and your Blasts on the same turn.

About the most important thing that has changed, and I can't stress most important enough, is that LED has become a baiting card. Thanks to Ichorid, LED says "you must Force of Will/Daze me" game one, so Storm combo has gotten more resilient against counters, especially Storm combo that doesn't really rely on LED.

Other than that, all I can suggest is to have a SB plan for cutting the Blasts, I like Serum Powder and Leyline of the Meek myself, tho' Street Wraith works to I guess, and consider Leyline of the Void if Ichorid is popular, because it can turn a bad match up into a guaranteed match up.

Mulliganing is easy, learning how to play against control just requires some one to point it out to you or experience, about the only question you have to ask yourself is whether or not you want to SB out Seething Song against control for something else.

Any way, 8 Blasts is a no brainer in a Tarmogoyf metagame. The deck isn't all that hot with Stifle around, but other than that, it does alright.

[dlevsApiJ]

The build I'm testing:

// Lands
2 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
3 [SC] Xantid Swarm

// Spells
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

The swarms main are good in my meta, but they need more testing..

Why i play Cave-In & Rough // Tumble is because Cave-In doenst work against Geddock Teeg, so i need another answer, but Cave-In is so much better when not playing against Geddock Teeg, i play both (but do I need Cave-In? I think i play the removal not many, only againt Teeg and MM and sometimes more,, so maybe cut the Cave?)

And then cut it for the Goblin War Strike (i had cut it for the Rough // Tumble,, because i thought it was an overkill, but after cut him, i lost some games because i was 1 turn to slow with the EtW tokens (a friend plays EE main ;)),, and in some situations i had killed him if the GWS was in my Side.. But i van also cut it for a second enchantment removal:

Simplify, i want to cut the card, ore play 2 second enchantment removal,, when the oppo has 2 enchantments and you want to destroy one, you can never do that.. Some cards to play instead of the Simplify:
- Hull Breach
- Reverent Silence
- and maybe Tranquility

are there people that can say something about that?


Today i had a nice play, I mulled to 5, and combo'ed in turn 2:

Land Grant (1 Storm, 1 Mana) -> Tinder Wall (2 Storm, 2 Mana) -> Rite of Flame (3 Storm, 3 Mana) -> Seething Song (4 Storm, 5 Mana) -> Seething Song (5 Storm, 7 Mana) -> Played Lions Eye diamond (6 Storm, 7 Mana) -> B. Wish (7 Storm, 5 Mana) -> Activated LED (7 Storm, 8 Mana) -> Wished for a Tutor (7 Storm, 8 Mana) -> Played Tutor for a B. Wish (8 Storm, 6 Mana) -> Played B. Wish for a Tendrills (9 Storm, 4 Mana) -> Tendrils with 10 Storm, turn 2 With a muligan to 5, and No D. Returns :P.

Mvg

[dlevsApiJ]

Someone that can answer a question, i have a tournament this weekend, and I need a good build (i'm testing very much) :)..

Mvg

[BreathWeapon]

Straight red with one land and 8 blasts is about as good as it gets, I can tell you that Xantid Swarms are awful in Belcher and aren't worth your time, they cost you mana, storm and a turn, compare that to a blast.

[Wallace]

I went 4 -2 day one of TMLO 3 with this build:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Wild Cantor
3 Tinder Wall
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Taiga

SB:
4 Pyoblast
4 Red Elemental Balst
1 Hull Breach
1 Simplify
1 Duress
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diminishing Returns

[dlevsApiJ]

Straight red with one land and 8 blasts is about as good as it gets, I can tell you that Xantid Swarms are awful in Belcher and aren't worth your time, they cost you mana, storm and a turn, compare that to a blast.

Ok, xantid let you be one turn slower, but is stopt All the counter, Blasy only on, and you need 1 mana more the turn you combo!..

But maybe is Swarm better in side, so they side out their creature kill.

And can you post a list with 1 land and 8 blasts (i dont think i gonna play 1 land, after a failed combo'ing, when you already had a taiga, you dont want your Land grant for nothing..

Mvg

EDIT: ow, and Swarm also works against shit like Orims Chant..

[Lego]

SB:
4 Pyoblast
4 Red Elemental Balst
1 Hull Breach
1 Simplify
1 Duress
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diminishing Returns

What do you board out for the 8 blast plan?

How often was Burning Wish relevant? Were you more often winning with EtW, or with Belcher?

[BreathWeapon]

One turn is "forever" against Threshold, you shut down Force of Will, Daze, Stifle and Spellsnare, but you Time Walk them into Counterbalance, Meddling Mage or Gaddok Teeg and let them cantrip into Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle. If your opponent has two answers in his, then you lose, regardless of whether or not you have Xantid Swarm or a Blast, and if they have a counter and removal, you just look stupid.

You could SB Xantid Swarm, altho' I'd look into Goblin Welder at that point.

This is the list I run,

MD
4 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Right of Flame
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

SB
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
5 Open Slots

Your only bad match ups are discard, prison, decks with Orim's Chant and decks with Force of Will and either Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy or Duress.

Cephalid Breakfast is an auto-loss

[Wallace]

What do you board out for the 8 blast plan?

How often was Burning Wish relevant? Were you more often winning with EtW, or with Belcher?


I find the deck winning 50/50 between belcher and ETW. I think I may have miss-posted the list, I only run 6 blasts in my board, I forgot what the other two cards were. The 6 blasts are easy to put in, you just remove one of a bunch of cards, the Wrath's are easy to side out too. Burning Wish is a must, it goes and gets answers to so many things, not to mention getting ETW, FTW!!!

[dlevsApiJ]

Build with no lands?:

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
1 [GP] Wild Cantor (what also to do with the last slot..)

// Spells
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [U] Red Elemental Blast
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [IA] Pyroblast
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [P2] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [PLC] Rough/Tumble
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens

[Jaynel]

I dunno, it seems like Land Grant is pretty awesome with the +1 storm +1 mana deal. What does cutting the 1/2 Taigas offer besides always winning off a Belcher activation?

[Wallace]

I dunno, it seems like Land Grant is pretty awesome with the +1 storm +1 mana deal.

Seconded, this deck really needs to run one or two land. Land grant is too good not to run.

[matelml]

You shouldn't run more than 4 Blasts main, with more than that it becomes too hard to combo. And Xantid main doesn't look good either, it will be bad too many times and it's not even a good color on a Mox. With the SB you can do pretty much anything you want, Belcher's SB isn't very strong anyway because if you board more than 4 cards it becomes inconsistent and if you don't have a land probably won't have mana to cast the Welders/Swarms/whatever and still combo.

@Sacearuse:How can you combo half of the time with Goblin charbelcher when only 4/11 (appr.36%) of your wincons are Belcher?

[Wallace]

@Sacearuse:How can you combo half of the time with Goblin charbelcher when only 4/11 (appr.36%) of your wincons are Belcher?


I'm just looking back at the last three events I ran the deck. It works out to 7/17 (41%) of my matches I Belched my opponent out. I keep a good record of my matchs and how I won them, sorry my math was a little off.

[dlevsApiJ]

// Lands
1 [b] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
2 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [IA] Pyroblast
2 [4e] Red Elemental Blast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [MM] Goblin War Strike/Cave-In (what of the 2?)
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [SC] Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Simplify
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony

I'm not sure of the 1 land, sometimes i dont want it, and other times i want:P, but with 6 counter main, i think i fizzle less, so 1 land is good
@ Matelml, with 6 counters, i havent had a problem with drawing to many..
I cutted 2 D ritual for the 2 ReB, isnt cutting something other better? (1 LandGrant?, cause 4 LandGrant with 1 Taiga is sometimes to much..)

[Waikiki]

I'd rather cut a street wraith or tinder wall.

[Brehn]

You don't want to cut Land Grant as it's an initial mana source which can start your engine and improves your Belcher. I've seen Elvish Spirit Guides and Seething Songs being cut for a 2nd land or more Blasts and it feels better for me, but as long as nobody comes up with actual numbers it's just a matter of taste.

[BreathWeapon]

You shouldn't run more than 4 Blasts main, with more than that it becomes too hard to combo. And Xantid main doesn't look good either, it will be bad too many times and it's not even a good color on a Mox. With the SB you can do pretty much anything you want, Belcher's SB isn't very strong anyway because if you board more than 4 cards it becomes inconsistent and if you don't have a land probably won't have mana to cast the Welders/Swarms/whatever and still combo.

@Sacearuse:How can you combo half of the time with Goblin charbelcher when only 4/11 (appr.36%) of your wincons are Belcher?

The number of Blasts in the MD has nothing to do with whether or not the deck can/can't combo unless the Blasts are replacing Serum Powder, and Serum Powder is too much of a tell in the MD. You don't keep a hand with Street Wraith hoping to draw into more mana, and Wild Cantor's mana fixing is moot in a 2c deck. If you aren't running 8 Blasts, you can't count on a Blast being in your opening hand, and that changes the Threshold % by a lot.

You seriously don't need 2 lands, or even want 2 lands. I've lost more games to a failed Belcher activation than I have from not being able to find another Taiga. If you have 2 Land Grant, just imprint one on a Chrome Mox or cast it for storm. Top decking dead Land Grants and having to wait another turn to combo isn't nearly as bad as failing to kill with the Belcher and waiting turns to try it again.

You already choke about 1 in 10 times with Belcher, choking 1/5 times is totally unacceptable.

Unless you're playing with Serum Powder or casting Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns, there's no way you're winning an equal amount of games with Warrens and Belcher. It's a 7 to 4 ratio if you count Burning Wish as additional copies of Warrens, and you should.

[raudo]

I browsed through all my cards trying to find a card to replace the weak Wild Cantor / Pyroblast slot. I don't know how stupid idea this is but I'm going to test 2-4 Winds of Change. Probably the casting cost of R can still be too much to spend but I'd like to find it out.

If opening hand is something like this (like it usually is) Winds of Change can give you a chance:

Lion's Eye Diamond
(Wild Cantor) Winds of Change
Chrome Mox
Simian Spirit Guide
Desperate Ritual
Rite of Flame
Seething Song

Play LED, Discard Simian, play Winds of Change. Get Burning Wish, Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide and Land Grant. There is just enough mana to go for Empty the Warrens.

[Nihil Credo]

Street Wraith or even Serum Powder seem both miles better than Winds of Change. They fulfill the same role - helping bad draws - for zero mana.

[Slay]

Street Wraith should be in this deck. It makes one mana on average, which is usually exactly what you need.
-Slay

[BreathWeapon]

Street Wraith should be in this deck. It makes one mana on average, which is usually exactly what you need.
-Slay

That's troublesome tho', because Street Wraith shouldn't be counted on drawing into what you need, he's just there to make already good hands better. Even on the draw, it's speculative at best.

[Slay]

That's troublesome tho', because Street Wraith shouldn't be counted on drawing into what you need, he's just there to make already good hands better. Even on the draw, it's speculative at best.

There is an ~80% chance that Street Wraith will be a ESG or better. In a deck which is purely statistical, those are odds I like.
-Slay

[Iranon]

For those questioning the number of lands...

The chance of a Belcher activation dealing more than 19 points of damage if you have 52 cards left in your library are roughly

81% (1 Taiga left), 65% (2 Taigas left) or 57% (1 Taiga, 1 Bayou left).

This surprised me a little; especially the difference between both 2-land variants (it felt larger in actual play).


***

Personally, I never liked the blasts much, favouring Storm Entity as a cheap win condition that shines if they try to counter your mana sources. They're also quite good at bringing home a game that started off with a lacklustre goblin swarm and can turn useless hands into merely sucky hands.

[Wallace]

Why would you even consider Winds of Change? You wan't gain any cards off of it, shuffle in like one maybe two cards, draw 1-2?

Street wraith is really good in belcher, I have been running it for a month now and like the results I have gotten with it. I aslo have droped to 1 Taiga insted of two, you really don't need two and one works just fine.

[BreathWeapon]

There is an ~80% chance that Street Wraith will be a ESG or better. In a deck which is purely statistical, those are odds I like.
-Slay

And the other 20% is as good as GG. Belcher is built on statistics, but it isn't built to withstand variance. Relying on your Street Wraith or your 8th card to fix your hand is often worse than just taking a mulligan unless your mulligan is diminimus. Those implied Time Walks add up really, really fast at a tournament if you're not careful about it.

[Slay]

And the other 20% is as good as GG. Belcher is built on statistics, but it isn't built to withstand variance. Relying on your Street Wraith or your 8th card to fix your hand is often worse than just taking a mulligan unless your mulligan is diminimus. Those implied Time Walks add up really, really fast at a tournament if you're not careful about it.

I'd much rather hope my 8th card or Street Wraith brings me up to the 7 or 4 mana required to win than mulligan and risk mulling into oblivion. Street Wraith may not be the best card in the world, but it's better than any other choices for the deck(like shitty Wild Cantor or Living Wish). Besides, if my hand required Street Wraith to be something good to bail me out of it, I'd be mulliganing anyways.

And if you honestly think mulliganing is better than taking a 4/5 chance that you win the game, you should NEVER be allowed to touch Belcher.
-Slay

[BreathWeapon]

No, I'm saying if you don't have a hand that can commit a threat to the board on your first turn, you should ship it. If you're relying on Street Wraith in order to do that for you, you have to ask yourself whether or not you want to play with Serum Powder instead. If you just want to gamble on .8 of a mana source, as opposed to Serum Powder mulligans, mulligans, mulligans into Serum Powder mulligans etc. that's you're business, but the deck was built around mulliganing, and I've seen no math that backs .8 mana source .2 Time Walk being better than whatever Street Wraith is replacing + mulligans.

The decision has to be numbers based, but presuming that Street Wraith is superior to just mulligans, when the status quo was mulliganing before Street Wraith was printed, isn't an argument.

[Nihil Credo]

Serum Powder, as a statistical enhancer, has one huge drawback over Street Wraith: it forces you to reveal your hand. It's uniquely terrible on the play, as any opponent will instantly mulligan into FoW or any answer they may have in the maindeck (EE, Needle, etc.); but it's annoying on the draw too, since it lets your opponent know that, for example, he should go for Turn 1 Brainstorm instead of Turn 1 Mongoose, or Turn 1 Duress instead of Turn 1 Ritual -> Negator.

It may be slightly better than SW at fixing bad hands, but that issue alone solidly pushes it into second place.

[Slay]

Serum Powder is worse than Street Wraith for the reasons Nihil said, but it's also terrible in the midgame too. Street Wraith is never a dead card, so even in a very few scenarios where it's slightly worse than Serum Powder, it's still the superior card.
-Slay

[aTn]

Has anyone tried Last Chance or Warrior's Oath as possible Burning Wish targets in the sideboard ? I don't see it as a great idea, but here's what I thought:

It lets you get an extra turn to be able to attack with ETW tokens for the win: for example, you resolve ETW on turn one (on the play), you attack with tokens on your second turn and resolve Last Chance, you then attack with ETW token on your extra turn (your opponent will not have the opportunity to resolve Engineered Explosives or Pyroclasm - assuming he plays no acceleration like Chrome Mox, etc.). It also gives you the opportunity to resolve Belcher and get an extra turn to activate it. I think it's circumstantial at best... just an idea.

[Wallace]

Has anyone tried Last Chance or Warrior's Oath as possible Burning Wish targets in the sideboard ? I don't see it as a great idea, but here's what I thought:

It lets you get an extra turn to be able to attack with ETW tokens for the win: for example, you resolve ETW on turn one (on the play), you attack with tokens on your second turn and resolve Last Chance, you then attack with ETW token on your extra turn (your opponent will not have the opportunity to resolve Engineered Explosives or Pyroclasm - assuming he plays no acceleration like Chrome Mox, etc.). It also gives you the opportunity to resolve Belcher and get an extra turn to activate it. I think it's circumstantial at best... just an idea.


Its sounds ok but I think Goblin War Strike is just a better all around idea. Serves almost the same purpose and doesn't cause you to lose if something goes wrong.

[Shriekmaw]

Its sounds ok but I think Goblin War Strike is just a better all around idea. Serves almost the same purpose and doesn't cause you to lose if something goes wrong.



I've seen Goblin War Strike in a lot of boards for both TES and Belcher. I never ran the card because I found that almost all the time you combo out via warrens, you don't have another wish to war strike the opponent out. I would rather use my slots in the board for more useful wish targets or cards against the tough matchups.

The rough matchups are basically any decks that play "blue" cards. :)

[aTn]

I never ran the card because I found that almost all the time you combo out via warrens, you don't have another wish to war strike the opponent out.

I totally agree (this applies also to my suggestions). That's why I found them circumstantial at best.

Even playing four-ofs in the SB and siding them in wouldn't guarantee the play situations I mentioned would happen (and it would be a waste of SB slots).

EDIT: I agree with you Sacearuse, Warstrike is better than Last Chance.

[Wallace]

I've seen Goblin War Strike in a lot of boards for both TES and Belcher. I never ran the card because I found that almost all the time you combo out via warrens, you don't have another wish to war strike the opponent out. I would rather use my slots in the board for more useful wish targets or cards against the tough matchups.

The rough matchups are basically any decks that play "blue" cards. :)

I was just saying that compaired to Final Fortune/Last Chance, warstrike is better.

[asdljas]

Sometimes, I wish for Goblin Warstrike before I Empty the Warrens. It comes up where I have both the wish and EtW, and I can do both with my mana. Goblin Warstrike doesn't add to the storm count, but I can always get it, combo, and hold it to cast the next turn when my Taiga or Chrome Mox untaps. It can't be bad as a one-of in the board. It makes your EtW kill one turn faster, which is sometimes relevant.

For those of us considering cutting 1 Taiga, and running one-land Belcher: should we cut a land grant, and go down to three? If so, are there viable options for additional free mana?

Also, I run four Rite of Flame in the main deck. Sometimes, I'd like to wish for a ritual effect though. Does anyone have any input on this? Should I be running one Rite in the board, or maybe a Seething Song or something?

[dlevsApiJ]

Song doesnt look so good in the side,, its a instant.. ;)

RoF also isnt good,, you only get more mana when you have 2 of them in the grave,, cause Wish cost 2.. And when you play 3 main,, its hard to get 2 of them in your grave...

Mvg

[asdljas]

Yeah, my bad on the Seething Song. The only sorcery ritual effects I can think of are Channel the Suns (which only gives you +1 mana when you spent 2 to Burning Wish), and the Rite of Flame. I really want a +2 ritual effect in the board, or something that doubles as such.

What do you guys think about the Land Grant question? Should we go down to three if we're running only one Taiga?

[Bongo]

I've been testing Storm Entity as a minor win-condition in Belcher:

1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall

4 Pyroblast

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Storm Entity


SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Shattering Spree
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Cave-In
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Simplify
1 Grapeshot


While I can't say anything conclusive yet, Storm Entity has been surprisingly useful as a Plan B.
You can catch opponents offguard if they board out their creature removal and you circumvent stuff like Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives which would normally be very good against EtW tokens.

If anybody else is testing this, let me know how it does for you.

[Soto]

Won't you mana burn like crazy from Storm Entity?

[Slay]

Mana burn doesn't matter, but why would you put the Storm Entitys in the maindeck, when the time they're at their best is when you get to avoid creaturekill?
-Slay

[meanee]

Storm entity is very much better in the sideboard. It has to come as a surprise, otherwise, it is way too easy to kill for your opponent. The very best for a belcherplayer is to kill turn 1 or 2 with the charbelcher, and then the next round board in things like storm entity, and hope to catch your opponent off guard.

For reference, here is the list me and my (danish) team has developed. It is very aggressive, and after the meta has shifted towards a lot of force of will decks, it is not very good anymore.

THe kill:
4 belcher
4 empty the warrens
The critters:
8 spirit guides
4 tinder wall
4 Street wraith
The others:
3 pyroblast
4 serum powder
4 land grant
THe mana:
4 seething song
4 desperate ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 lion's eye diamond
1 taiga

The sideboard is something like:
4 storm entity
4 red elemental blast
3-4 shattering spree
3-4 something...

Anyway, that's how we play the belcher. There is no need for the second taiga, or land in general...

- meanee

[Iranon]

Storm Entity has been a solid maindeck card for me, generally being a credible win condition if the opponent is countering mana sources all over the place. Even though it'll die quite often, I think it improves some unfavourable match-ups.

[Wallace]

For reference, here is the list me and my (danish) team has developed. It is very aggressive, and after the meta has shifted towards a lot of force of will decks, it is not very good anymore.

Anyway, that's how we play the belcher. There is no need for the second taiga, or land in general...
- meanee

I see you have cut burning wish and the wish board, how consistant can this deck be only running 8 win conditions insted of 11?

[meanee]

You're right, that sometimes you simply have to muligan just because you don't have any win-conditions in your starting 7. BUT. And there is a but, i'd say. If you exclude the wish, and wishboard from the deck, you can go off a lot faster. Up til about a .5 turns earlier...

In a thresh fow-in-generel meta I wouldn't play my list anymore. It has simply no way of fighting through a hand full of fow, daze, stifle and the like (even though one of my teammates fought through 4 counters when going off, but that seems to be a rare case :))

Anyway. All in all I like to play my list better than the wish-lists. Mine is very very aggressive, but, as I just said, it is also a lot more vulnerable... Unfortunately...

- meanee

[badjuju]

If anyone has seen the latest list (or cares anyway), CRET Belcher won a 75-man tournament...filled with blue in the top 8. Now most people wouldn't advocate playing this deck in a blue-filled environment (and for the most part, such is still true), but this guy definitely proved us wrong. The card that won him these matches was Magus of the Moon. At first, I sorta dismissed the creature since it didn't make any sense in the deck. But as I imagined the plays, Magus of the Moon really puts the other decks (especially the tri-color aggro-control decks) in a jam. Backed by MB REB effects, resolving a Magus isn't as bad as people would think.

Secondly, the general consensus in Europe is still to run 2 Taigas. I honestly haven't found any particular advantage, but at the same time they're still running Wild Cantors and such. The deck might be a bit slower or inconsistent with Belches, but do you guys think it is worth it to stick to 2 lands?

Lastly, this isn't the first time I've seen 3x Rite of Flame MB and 1x SB. The chances that you'll have yarded a Rite of Flame (or two) while casting a Burning wish for something other than a win condition is very narrow. I still think 4x Rite of Flame is the correct number MB to maintain the explosiveness of the deck.

[Waikiki]

Where can I find the decklist? I wonder what goes out for the magus

[Wallace]

If anyone has seen the latest list (or cares anyway), CRET Belcher won a 75-man tournament...filled with blue in the top 8. Now most people wouldn't advocate playing this deck in a blue-filled environment (and for the most part, such is still true), but this guy definitely proved us wrong. The card that won him these matches was Magus of the Moon. At first, I sorta dismissed the creature since it didn't make any sense in the deck. But as I imagined the plays, Magus of the Moon really puts the other decks (especially the tri-color aggro-control decks) in a jam. Backed by MB REB effects, resolving a Magus isn't as bad as people would think.

Secondly, the general consensus in Europe is still to run 2 Taigas. I honestly haven't found any particular advantage, but at the same time they're still running Wild Cantors and such. The deck might be a bit slower or inconsistent with Belches, but do you guys think it is worth it to stick to 2 lands?

Lastly, this isn't the first time I've seen 3x Rite of Flame MB and 1x SB. The chances that you'll have yarded a Rite of Flame (or two) while casting a Burning wish for something other than a win condition is very narrow. I still think 4x Rite of Flame is the correct number MB to maintain the explosiveness of the deck.


Do you have a deck list or the name of the tournament so we can see the top 8?

[Jules]

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3408

[asdljas]

Okay, I'm not so sure about the Magus of the Moon tech, but it seems to be popular. Even the worlds lists had one deck with the Moonman in the board. Does anyone have test results with this? Also, two of the three lists at Worlds were running Xantid Swarm in the board.

[Filipinho]

I really like Paul Borocyk's list. From my playing, it's playing really well. Pretty smooth.
I like being striclty red and green, with black I had a lot more problem with consistency, being mana screwed a few times.
I like playing 2x Taiga's to maximize Belcher effect. With 2x lands you can get yours via Land Grand or draw and keep a land in the deck for a huge Belcher. I like improving the chances of an instant kill.
I like the Street Wraith, it makes your deck have 56 cards. More chance to draw whatever you want.
I like having REB's MD, it's a metagame slot, but tendency is that every meta will have lots of counters. At worlds was a good call.
What I'm not sure is the wish board and side boarding techniques. Could you help me?

[Wallace]

I really like Paul Borocyk's list. From my playing, it's playing really well. Pretty smooth.
I like being striclty red and green, with black I had a lot more problem with consistency, being mana screwed a few times.
I like playing 2x Taiga's to maximize Belcher effect. With 2x lands you can get yours via Land Grand or draw and keep a land in the deck for a huge Belcher. I like improving the chances of an instant kill.
I like the Street Wraith, it makes your deck have 56 cards. More chance to draw whatever you want.
I like having REB's MD, it's a metagame slot, but tendency is that every meta will have lots of counters. At worlds was a good call.
What I'm not sure is the wish board and side boarding techniques. Could you help me?

Running 2 Taiga's doesn't maximize belcher, running 1 does however. If you hit no land off of a Belcer activation you will do damage equal to the number of cards left in your deck. I would rather run one Taiga and fetch it with a Land Grant, leaving zero land in my deck which,would guaruntee that I kill my opponent, then run two lands and chane revealing a land to early.

Another thing is you want to run main board Pyroblasts not REB. Pyroblast can target any color spell, addiing to storm count if needed, while REB can only target blue spells. If this was just a typo then just ignor this last paragraph.

[Filipinho]

Sorry. I knew about pyroblast x REB.

But I thought you had to reveal a land for belcher to work... being new to the deck has these things.

[JDunkin00]

I have played belcher many times and perfer the wishes there is too much hate maindeck (explosive, p needle) if the win the die roll. I also like cantor cause sometime you just have to beat in just ask tacosnape.

[Tacosnape]

I have played belcher many times and perfer the wishes there is too much hate maindeck (explosive, p needle) if the win the die roll. I also like cantor cause sometime you just have to beat in just ask tacosnape.

Yeah, that game was ridiculous.:P

I mostly agree, though. Cantor's still pretty good. What Wild Cantor allows you to do even in R/G is, much like Tinder Wall, stagger your combo when you're short on mana. Taiga/Mox, Cantor, go, leaves you only needing a net mana of +2 next turn to hit either a Belcher or a Warrens.

While this isn't a great strategy and the slot would be better served as a genuine mana accelerant, the obvious problem is that there isn't one. Without going into three colors, which hurts consistency.

[JDunkin00]

Yeah, that game was ridiculous.:P

I mostly agree, though. Cantor's still pretty good. What Wild Cantor allows you to do even in R/G is, much like Tinder Wall, stagger your combo when you're short on mana. Taiga/Mox, Cantor, go, leaves you only needing a net mana of +2 next turn to hit either a Belcher or a Warrens.

While this isn't a great strategy and the slot would be better served as a genuine mana accelerant, the obvious problem is that there isn't one. Without going into three colors, which hurts consistency.

Thanks for backing me up on that. :cool: Also while less consistant in theory I still have a small black splash of Infernal tutor. It's so good with LED and nice to pick up extra Rites to go off next turn with warrens+ or extra S Song to go off with belcher. Just 2 tutors main and one for the wish makes a big difference. I will try out these 1 taiga builds and see which I prefer.

[Shugyosha]

You should really try the Magus tech. I know the guy who went first place with it and he confirmed me that it was quite good. He also went 8th in the same tourney with mostly the same build one month later.

Although he runs Magus and Blasts the deck still seems to run smooth enough. I'm playing with Magus myself but I'm still not too thrilled about Blasts main.

[Wallace]

So how about we add a Draw 5-7 card effect to the deck?

Slithermuse

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gifCreature - Elementalhttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/morningtide-rare.gifWhen Slithermuse leaves play, choose an opponent. If that player has more cards in hand than you, draw cards equal to the difference.
Evoke http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana2.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manau.gif


Anybody think Slithermuse will have an inpact on this deck?

[Bovinious]

With what blue mana would you evoke that? You have 4 Lotus Petal, and if you wanted to toss Wild Cantor back in the deck youd have that but even so thats just 8 blue sources...you cant even Burning Wish for it and use LED mana to pay for it. Doesnt seem to great here.

[BreathWeapon]

With what blue mana would you evoke that? You have 4 Lotus Petal, and if you wanted to toss Wild Cantor back in the deck youd have that but even so thats just 8 blue sources...you cant even Burning Wish for it and use LED mana to pay for it. Doesnt seem to great here.

4 Land Grant + 1 Tropical Island + 4 Lotus Petal + 4 Wild Cantor = 13 U sources. I've been running Slither Muse in both the 13 U configuration and as a Living Wish target and both of them have impressed me so far. The increased Belcher misfires are worth the additional threats, tho' I'm not certain the 13 U configuration is superior to 8 MD blasts.

[Tacosnape]

If only they'd hurry up and print Vodalian Spirit Guide.

Seriously, though. This occurred to me in Belcher, but I am a little hesitant about the lack of blue.

[JDunkin00]

If only they'd hurry up and print Vodalian Spirit Guide.

Seriously, though. This occurred to me in Belcher, but I am a little hesitant about the lack of blue.

Glad that was sarcastic cause blue with hidden mana is bad news. Plus you can run Wheel of Fate in the deck as is if you just desire some draw.

[Bovinious]

4 Land Grant + 1 Tropical Island + 4 Lotus Petal + 4 Wild Cantor = 13 U sources. I've been running Slither Muse in both the 13 U configuration and as a Living Wish target and both of them have impressed me so far. The increased Belcher misfires are worth the additional threats, tho' I'm not certain the 13 U configuration is superior to 8 MD blasts.

Tropical Island seems bad, theres a reason no one plays Bayou and Dark Ritual anymore, the same goes for Tropical and Slithermuse. And why are you back suggesting Living Wish? That card is not good in this deck, if you want to play Storm Entity MD/SB (I hope thats what its for...) then run it but dont run awful cards like Living Wish.


Glad that was sarcastic cause blue with hidden mana is bad news. Plus you can run Wheel of Fate in the deck as is if you just desire some draw.

Wheel of Fate. No, just no.

[BreathWeapon]

Tropical Island seems bad, theres a reason no one plays Bayou and Dark Ritual anymore, the same goes for Tropical and Slithermuse. And why are you back suggesting Living Wish? That card is not good in this deck, if you want to play Storm Entity MD/SB (I hope thats what its for...) then run it but dont run awful cards like Living Wish.



Wheel of Fate. No, just no.

I know the reason Bayou and Dark Ritual were cut, I was the one that advocated cutting them in the first place, I also know the difference between what Bayou and Dark Ritual adds to the deck and what Tropical Island and Slithermuse adds to the deck.

Living Wish isn't bad, it's mediocre, but that's acceptable considering there's no other threat in either color that the deck can use. 1G+2U for a Slithermuse is less cost/risk than 1R + 2UU for Diminishing Returns and the deck gains access to Goblin Welder, Ancient Tomb, Storm Entity, Magus of the Moon etc.
Living Wish is only as good or as bad as its targets, and Slithermuse is a pretty good new target.

I'm not advocating anything, I'm just testing a new card, so chill out.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Just one Question...

In a R/G Build with only 1 Taiga but 4 Pyroblasts main, when you have 4 open Slots...

Would you Run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith???

Thx for Help

[spider900]

Just one Question...

In a R/G Build with only 1 Taiga but 4 Pyroblasts main, when you have 4 open Slots...

Would you Run Wild Cantor or Street Wraith???

Thx for Help

I would run Street Wraith since he digs for Finishers or Burning Wish (which is also kinda win condition, but also an answer to hate). I run 3 Street Wraith in my version, too, and I never felt it too hard to make a decision whether to mulligan or not...I really won't run Cantor instead of him, 'cause Cantor only gives you the right color of mana which I have in most cases already without him...

Spider

[Humphrey]

Slithermuse is Evoke :3: :u:

[aTn]

Hi guys.

I've played Belcher a bit during the time fellow Montrealer's (Team CRET) had success with the deck. Althought I liked the deck, I always favored Threshold as my deck of choice to take out to local tournaments. These days, I'm thinking of picking it up Belcher again and I'd like to know your take on recent developpments.

1. - 4 Dark Ritual:

Is playing Dark Ritual that hard ? Running 4 Cantor, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Land Grant and 1 Bayou, it never occured to me that getting B was a huge problem. Maybe your opponent can deny your black sources by killing Cantor, wasting Bayou or getting rid of Lotus Petal, but that doesn't seem likely (I might be wrong, since I haven't played the deck in a long time).

2. Street Wraith:

I have no 'real' opinion on this, since I haven't tested it yet.

3. 4 Pyroblast maindeck:

Same as (2).

Are there current lists that are considered to be 'standard' ?

[Tacosnape]

In a short summary

1. Dark Ritual -can- be played, but the acceleration you gain isn't worth all the inconsistency.

2. Street Wraith blows.

3. Pyroblast is maindecked because without Dark Ritual, there isn't another mana accelerant to run in that slot that anyone's come up with.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hi guys.

I've played Belcher a bit during the time fellow Montrealer's (Team CRET) had success with the deck. Althought I liked the deck, I always favored Threshold as my deck of choice to take out to local tournaments. These days, I'm thinking of picking it up Belcher again and I'd like to know your take on recent developpments.

1. - 4 Dark Ritual:

Is playing Dark Ritual that hard ? Running 4 Cantor, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Land Grant and 1 Bayou, it never occured to me that getting B was a huge problem. Maybe your opponent can deny your black sources by killing Cantor, wasting Bayou or getting rid of Lotus Petal, but that doesn't seem likely (I might be wrong, since I haven't played the deck in a long time).

2. Street Wraith:

I have no 'real' opinion on this, since I haven't tested it yet.

3. 4 Pyroblast maindeck:

Same as (2).

Are there current lists that are considered to be 'standard' ?

aTn, there are a bunch of different versions to play u can go R/G, R/G/B, R/G with 1 land, it just depends on your playstyle. I personally think black HAS to be in the deck for dark ritual, cabal ritual, and plunge into darkness/spoils of the vault. I have talked with a lot of people around my local Legacy tournies about belcher any everyone unanimously agrees black has to be in there but the street wraith option is up in the air. Street Wraith terrifies me so I don't play it. Here is the verson I currently play, if nothing else I mulligan a lot less than I did with only R/G versions and have consistently stronger starting hands.
Main Deck
Land:
4x Land Grant
1x Bayou
1x Taiga

Artifacts:
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED

Creatures
4x Tinder Wall
4x ESG
4x SSG

Rituals
4x Dark Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
4x Cabal Ritual

Kill
4x Goblin Charbelcher
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
3x Spoils of the Vault (could be plunge)

Sideboard
1x Reverent Silence
1x Cave-In
1x Pyroclasm
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hull Breach
1x Goblin War Strike
3x Shattering Spree
3x Pyroblast
3x Xantid Swarm

I have tried all of the builds especially the one with magus and pyroblasts main but I just never found it as consistent as this build. Anyway, it all comes down to your local meta and playstyle, try some different builds and see which one suits you.

[aTn]

Thanks for your advice (Taco, Pulp). I've played the CRET version of the deck for some time and I feel comfortable with it. That being said, I haven't tested some match-ups like Dragon Stompy and Dreadstill (which seem pretty hard).

[ACME_Myst]

Time to get some attention towards this deck.

Note that I'm not actually playing this deck right now, but I'm an avid combo player anyway so it does have my interest.

Anyway, I'm currently working on a computer program thats able to pilot Belcher completely on it's own. If you wonder how this works, here's an example:

The program "shuffles" up the deck, draws a random hand, then sees if it can combo with it. Here's a piece of example output:



Hand (7):
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall
Lotus Petal
Chrome Mox
Goblin Charbelcher
Lions Eye Diamond
Wild Cantor
Keep


Plays out like this:

Lotus Petal (G)
Lotus Petal (GG)
Chrome Mox -> imprint Wild Cantor (GGG)
Tinder Wall (RRGG)
Lions Eye Diamond (RRGG)
Goblin Charbelcher ()
Crack Lions Eye Diamond (RRR)
Activate Goblin Charbelcher

Finished. Press return to run again.


Or an example using EtW:



Hand (7):
Simian Spirit Guide
Street Wraith
Land Grant
Chrome Mox
Wild Cantor
Simian Spirit Guide
Rite of Flame
Mulligan

Hand (6):
Elvish Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall
Wild Cantor
Lions Eye Diamond
Burning Wish
Rite of Flame
Keep


Plays out like this:

Elvish Spirit Guide (G - Storm 0)
Tinder Wall (RR - Storm 1)
Wild Cantor (RG - Storm 2)
Rite of Flame (RRG - Storm 3)
Lions Eye Diamond (RRG - Storm 4)
Burning Wish (G - Storm 5)
Crack Lions Eye Diamond (RRRG - Storm 5)
Wish for Empty The Warrens
Empty The Warrens for 12 tokens ( - Storm 6)


Finished. Press return to run again.


Please note that as of now the program isn't finished or bug free, but as you can see we're getting some nice results already.

Why am I telling you this? The reason is simple:

Once I'm finished building the program, and have incorporated all logic needed, we can use the program to find the Absolute Fastest Belcher List Possible (tm). The program could go over thousands of hands for every possible permutation of the decklist, and finally present the list with the best results, tweaked to the very last card.

Now, what I need from you, the community (if you want to help, ofcourse), is a list of all possible cards that should be tried for the deck. I'll edit this post with all cards that are named.

Finally, I'll edit in an URL to download the temporary program (the one whose results are above) once I've worked out the biggest problems.

[Edit]
Here's the first list of cards that might be tested. If you feel more of them should be on here, or some shouldn't be, feel free to say so:

Lands
Taiga, Bayou

Artifact Mana
Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Bloom (wtf)

Red Mana Accelerants
Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, Simian Spirit Guide

Black Mana Accelerants
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual

Green Mana Accelerants
Elvish Spirit Guide, Channel the Suns, Land Grant, Tinder Wall, Birds of Paradise

Tutors
Burning Wish, Infernal Tutor, Spoils of the Vault, Gamble, Plunge into Darkness

Win
Empty the Warrens, Goblin Charbelcher, Storm Entity (mh)

Filler Cards
Street Wraith, Wild Cantor

Protection / Backup (difficult to test)
Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, Duress, Thoughtseize, Xantid Swarm, Pact of Negation, Goblin Welder, Unmask, Cabal Therapy, Dark Confidant, Magus of the Moon

Strange ideas
Leyline of the Meek, Serum Powder

Wishboard-only cards
Goblin War Strike, Shattering Spree, Hull Breach, Simplify, Tendrils of Agony, Diminishing Returns, Cave-In, Pyroclasm, Rough // Tumble, Tremor, Ignite Memories, Deconstruct, Echoing Ruin

Big thanks to Brehn for giving me the complete list.

[kicks_422]

Wow. That's cool. However, all you're calculating is speed, with no room for protection/disruption (e.g. 4 Pyroblasts MD)... Still a very useful program to see what the fastest list would be, and then go from there for protection or whatever.

[ACME_Myst]

Yes, that's indeed a problem. You could still include Pyroblasts in the deck, even use them to up the stormcount, but it probably won't be any good if the only result we're looking at is speed.

Obviously very fast lists exist already, but I daresay nobody is going to do 5000 goldfishes to see if 3x Cantor / 4x Tinder Wall is more optimal than 4x Cantor / 3x Tinder Wall.

Btw, if there a any coders on these boards who would like to help / are interested in seeing the code, drop me a PM.

[kicks_422]

Could you calculate how much speed a certain card adds to the deck? Because if you could, then once the fastest list is found out, maybe you could take out the cards which contribute the least to speed and replace them with Pyroblasts.

[ACME_Myst]

That's not really needed. I just figured out how to bypass the problem:

Instead of asking the question "Give me the fastest list possible", just ask for "The fastest list containing 4x Pyroblast".

That actually was way to simple :p.

I'm now down to the last few points on the bot, before I'm going to release the program:

- He now refuses to imprint winconditions on Chrome Moxen.
- Street Wraiths are now only used as imprint fodder.
- He can only play hands on turn 1, on the play. A turn structure should be added.

Once that is fixed, I can begin to implement all the other cards. Once that is done, a program has to be written to create all possible permutations of decklists and track their results. Then it's only a matter of time before we get sme results.

Hopefully by tonight I'll have the program uploaded in it's first state (using only my current decklist).

[Pulp_Fiction]

That is a really cool program, make sure you test out this list http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=3408
Also, does the program factor in mulligans, and then it draws 6 then 5 or anything like that?

[C.P.]

- Street Wraiths are now only used as imprint fodder.


...Even computer Knows that Wraiths suck balls.

Anyways, nice Idea. As a disruption piece, perhaps you should consider 8 blasts and 4 Swarms. And can you find out the number of spare BWishes that can answer random things and how much mana you have then?

EDIT: Also, it seems the program does not count belcher numbers. This may matter if you are running bayous in the list. How do you intend to solve this problem?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Hey, just a few random ideas I am going to throw out about this deck, I have been having problems with B/W Confidant/Deadguy Ale type decks and the occasional Pox deck. And the matches get exceedingly worse when Engineered Plague comes in. What do you guys think about Wheel of Fate as a 1x of wish target? It seems like it would be good against heavy discard and generally they dont put you on that fast of a clock in Legacy terms. I am going to try it out this week and see if it works, probably to slow, but might be very good.

Also, in a format with a lot of Chalices and 3Spheres and the random affinity deck, given the proper meta, does anyone think Seeds of Innocence would be a good 1x of wish target? I love Shattering Spree but I have seen double 3Sphere and it is sick. Anyway, I know these are sub-optimal wish targets but I am just curious if anyone has tried them out and how it worked.

[ACME_Myst]

Ok, here's an update on the program:

The current version can be found here:

http://www.savefile.com/files/1378005

It's full of bugs (like not discarding eot), but it works most of the time. I will, however, not continue work on this project. Why not?

Another member from these boards (SnakeEater) contacted me, and we have both agreed to completely rewrite the code. The endresult will hopefully be a computer program that's not only able to pilot Belcher, but any combodeck we throw at it. So TES, SI, Iggy etc might all be possible, in time. When I said the Belcher program would be able to calculate the fastest list possible, I won't have to tell you the possibilities that this new program might create.

For those interested in this project, any updates will probably be given their own thread somewhere on these boards.

[Mooglar]

acme can u post the txt file with it so we may change the decklist around thx

[thelemite]

18 person tournament Bethlehem PA

Finished 5th 3-1 (did not advance due to pairings)

Round 1 Vial Goblins 2-1

G-1 Belch turn 2

G-2 keep a hand with Belcher, and not enough to use it. Piledriver death

G-3 round 2 ETW for 14 tokens, Traded guys and round 7-8 for another 8 tokens.

Round 2- Faerie Stompy. 1-2 (record 1-1)

G-1 Chalice for 1 and counter magic keep me off my game.

G-2 12 Goblin tokens turn 2 protected by a pyroblast for good luck.

G-3 Chalice for 0 and 1 turn 1 makes it ugly for me.


Round 3- Burn 2-0(Record 2-1)

G-1 Belch for 20 round 1
G-2 14 tokens round 2

Round 4- TES 2-1 (record 3-1)
G-1 Belch turn 1 for the win
G-2 TES tendrils turn 2 for the win (Im one turn slow)
G-3 opponent and I mull, Turn 2 12 Goblin tokens by me for the win.

Out of it by pairings.

Name Qty Sideboard
Taiga 2
Elvish Spirit Guide 4
Simian Spirit Guide 4
Tinder Wall 4
Blood Moon 2 1
Wild Cantor 2
Goblin Charbelcher 4
Burning Wish 4
Empty the Warrens 3 1
Rite of Flame 3 1
Land Grant 4
Seething Song 4
Lotus Petal 4
Lion's Eye Diamond 4
Chrome Mox 4
Desperate Ritual 4
Pyroblast 2
Red Elemental Blast 2 1
Infernal Tutor 0 1
Shattering Spree 0 4
Simplify 0 1
Cave-In 0 1
Pyroclasm 0 1
Deconstruct 0 1
Ignite Memories 0 1
Goblin War Strike 0 1

[Michael Keller]

...Even computer Knows that Wraiths suck balls.

Anyways, nice Idea. As a disruption piece, perhaps you should consider 8 blasts and 4 Swarms. And can you find out the number of spare BWishes that can answer random things and how much mana you have then?

A few points I'd like to share:

First: Do not run blue in Belcher. It's terrible. There's only one blue card worth considering and that's Diminishing Returns in the board as a wish target. Blue has no valuable acceleration in a deck aimed to win on the first turn. Pact of Negation is another wasted slot. Every single card in your opening draw is of value, especially acceleration, and you should not waste it on something reactive until post-board (where Blasts come in).

Second: Street Wraith is a fine selection, even though I don't play it. It far from sucks balls. Playing what is essentially a fifty-six card deck is good for what you need - to increase your chances starting or drawing into a win condition. Although some people don't like it, and I can see why.

I'm working on a list right now I plan on playing in Virginia and Massachusetts in the coming month. I'll post it soon.

[n00per]

this is the Belcher list I want to build in the next month:

4 Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
4 Pyroblast

Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Simplify
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cave-In or 1 Pyroclasm

[Ch@os]

Looks pretty standart, like a build for a blind meta,

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, here's an update on the program:

The current version can be found here:

http://www.savefile.com/files/1378005

It's full of bugs (like not discarding eot), but it works most of the time. I will, however, not continue work on this project. Why not?

Another member from these boards (SnakeEater) contacted me, and we have both agreed to completely rewrite the code. The endresult will hopefully be a computer program that's not only able to pilot Belcher, but any combodeck we throw at it. So TES, SI, Iggy etc might all be possible, in time. When I said the Belcher program would be able to calculate the fastest list possible, I won't have to tell you the possibilities that this new program might create.

For those interested in this project, any updates will probably be given their own thread somewhere on these boards.

In my experience, the fastest R/g list possible is Serum Powder + Leyline of the Meek, finding Belcher more often or Time Walking Goblins leads to the quickest possible kills. Living Wish and Storm Entity is the only other configuration that probably competes for speed, since Wish + LED into a Draw 7 usually takes a turn off the clock.

[Michael Keller]

In my experience, the fastest R/g list possible is Serum Powder + Leyline of the Meek, finding Belcher more often or Time Walking Goblins leads to the quickest possible kills. Living Wish and Storm Entity is the only other configuration that probably competes for speed, since Wish + LED into a Draw 7 usually takes a turn off the clock.

A few points:

Serum Powder is essentially useless - it provides nothing proactive for you to win the game. You just might continue opening your hand with one and all you're doing is resetting a hand that could do the exact same thing if you open with a win condition or mulligan the proper way. Either way you cut it, a Force of Will is a Force of Will and a Thoughtseize is a Thoughtseize. Serum Powder might give you outs, but it is essentially a dead draw when you attempt to combo.

Leyline of the Meek is again - another non-proactive card. It's not business. You'll open hand it, drop it, and then what? It's like mulliganing to six and hoping for a turn one EtW. What if you open with Belcher? Imagine drawing into this. It's terrible. You need business spells - maintain the balance of acceleration the way it is.

Living Wish is another bad choice. All you need is Burning Wish. That card nets you so many outs (whether it be an Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns), it is vital in trying to win the game. Living Wish is slow, so I have no idea where you conceived "speed" from it in a deck that doesn't need to cast a creature that can be: Swords to Plowshared, Shriekmawed, or chumped until they find an answer. It's not a bad choice, but I'd rather have 12 or 14 1/1 tokens out than one 8/8 or 10/10. More people play Plowshares than Stifle.

[chokin]

this is the Belcher list I want to build in the next month:

4 Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rites of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor
4 Pyroblast

Sideboard
4 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Simplify
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cave-In or 1 Pyroclasm

Infernal Tutor and Tendrils in the board...but you have no Bayou and are only able to cast them off of Cantors, LEDs, and Petals. How has that been working for you? I'd imagine that having that Bayou would help.

[BreathWeapon]

A few points:

Serum Powder is essentially useless - it provides nothing proactive for you to win the game. You just might continue opening your hand with one and all you're doing is resetting a hand that could do the exact same thing if you open with a win condition or mulligan the proper way. Either way you cut it, a Force of Will is a Force of Will and a Thoughtseize is a Thoughtseize. Serum Powder might give you outs, but it is essentially a dead draw when you attempt to combo.

Leyline of the Meek is again - another non-proactive card. It's not business. You'll open hand it, drop it, and then what? It's like mulliganing to six and hoping for a turn one EtW. What if you open with Belcher? Imagine drawing into this. It's terrible. You need business spells - maintain the balance of acceleration the way it is.

Living Wish is another bad choice. All you need is Burning Wish. That card nets you so many outs (whether it be an Empty the Warrens or Diminishing Returns), it is vital in trying to win the game. Living Wish is slow, so I have no idea where you conceived "speed" from it in a deck that doesn't need to cast a creature that can be: Swords to Plowshared, Shriekmawed, or chumped until they find an answer. It's not a bad choice, but I'd rather have 12 or 14 1/1 tokens out than one 8/8 or 10/10. More people play Plowshares than Stifle.

1) Serum Powder is a free 6 card mulligan, if you can resolve a win condition in the first 6 card hand, you can keep it, if you can't resolve a win condition in the first 6 card hand, you can "mulligan" it for a 7 card hand. Either way, Serum Powder is virtual card advantage in a deck that mulligans aggressively, if you find it "essentially useless," you haven't played with it enough to know the difference.

2) If you draw Leyline of the Meek and Goblin Charbelcher, then you ask yourself whether or not you can resolve Goblin Charbelcher. If the answer is yes, then you keep the hand, and if the answer is no, then you mulligan the hand. Either way, you don't really care whether or not you draw Leyline of the Meek, because there was no other card that would have resolved the Goblin Charbelcher in the first place other than Street Wraith, which isn't a mutually exclusive card. On the other side, Leyline of the Meek is either a free Time Walk for Empty the Warrens or a virtual storm generator, which lets you race Pyroclasm and Engineered Explosives on the play and Engineered Plague and Pernicious Deed on the draw, or it lets you keep 7, 6 and 5 card hand you wouldn't other wise be able to win with by making your Goblins lethal.

3) Living Wish increases the speed of the deck by A) reducing mulligans, since Living Wish plus Lion's Eye Diamond/Wild Cantor into Slithermuse lets you keep a hand only on Living Wish B) resolving Slithermuse and drawing a new hand lets you float mana and build storm, the storm alone usually Time Walks Empty the Warrens into a one turn win or a Storm Entity into a turn two win.

Living Wish is also a pseudo win condition, Living Wish->Magus of the Moon can lock an opponent out of the game before he drops a land. I've seen the Europeans MD Blood Moons and Magus of the Moon in the open slots just to eliminate the opponent's mana base, at which point the Europeans rebuild thru' top decking while their opponent's are TKOed for the rest of the match. Short of that, I used to win via Minion of the Wastes or Rorix Bladewing, but even a Storm Elemental can get in for lethal sometimes. Combined with Living Wishes utility, it's enough to justify playing Living Wish over the other non-existent business options.

Whether or not those cards are optimal is irrelevant, he asked for the cards that increase the speed of R/g Belcher, and free 6 card hands and Time Walks are the answer. Ideally, you'd like to fill those 8 slots with Blasts, but practically,the deck can't support Blasts with 7 card draws on average. Whatever you choose, it's going to be sub-optimal in some form.

[Michael Keller]

1)Whether or not those cards are optimal is irrelevant, he asked for the cards that increase the speed of R/g Belcher, and free 6 card hands and Time Walks are the answer. Ideally, you'd like to fill those 8 slots with Blasts, but practically,the deck can't support Blasts with 7 card draws on average. Whatever you choose, it's going to be sub-optimal in some form.

Don't challenge my expertise on the subject with a cheap shot like that. You're lucky you haven't received a warning for starting a flame war. Be mindful and respectful of your peers because we're all in this together.

Back on topic:

I have played every version folks have posted in this forum and I find that the optimum build to be the original Ewokslayer list (with minor sideboard tweaking). I know he's had much success with that build so I'm following suit. I really believe that list to be the best and most of the other builds are trying to do things they don't have to do. You're using a logic that is completely ridiculous: Trying to open the game with six cards (potentially five) and banking on your opponent opening with a Force of Will. That's sub-optimal. I've won/Top 4'ed the local tournament in Syracuse the last four weeks in a row through about 40 Force of Wills. You need to understand that you shouldn't be playing around your opponent's hand - they should be playing around yours - that's why they mulligan if they don't open with a Force, because they're afraid you'll win. All you're doing is wasting precious mana acceleration with cards that ultimately serve no purpose.

Mulliganing aggressively is critical, yes. But resetting your hand into a bunch of reactive cards is not what you want to do with a combo deck.


On the other side, Leyline of the Meek is either a free Time Walk for Empty the Warrens or a virtual storm generator, which lets you race Pyroclasm and Engineered Explosives on the play and Engineered Plague and Pernicious Deed on the draw,

You'd, um, kind of lose the game by then - there'd be no race. And, Leyline gives your 1/1's +1/+1...that doesn't get around Pyroclasm, so I don't understand that logic. If they're going to kill your creatures, then they'll do it regardless of Leyline. Ultimately it won't be lethal. If you're speaking of swinging in before they Pyroclasm, that won't matter because - again - storm won't be lethal with cards like Pyroblast, more Leylines, and more Serum Powders in your main build. The bottom line is, you're going to have to pick a hand to open with. And you might end up finding yourself with a set of cards sans Serum Powder with the other cards that will give you an auto loss. You have to consider opening a hand with those cards and not being able to do anything. Plus, if your opponent drops E.E. , you're more than likely already screwed because the basis of the debate is based on you "racing" those cards. If that hits the table, your only out is Belcher or Shattering Spree.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I looked back at the original list and I am wondering why would you ever want to play black for just 4x Dark Ritual and 1x Duress/Thoughtseize and 1x Infernal in the side. From my experience playing the deck the inconsistencies from adding in 4x dark ritual just arent even worth it. My question is why would you ever play black in belcher without Spoils of the Vault or Plunge into Darkness in the main?

[BreathWeapon]

Don't challenge my expertise on the subject with a cheap shot like that. You're lucky you haven't received a warning for starting a flame war. Be mindful and respectful of your peers because we're all in this together.

Back on topic:

I have played every version folks have posted in this forum and I find that the optimum build to be the original Ewokslayer list (with minor sideboard tweaking). I know he's had much success with that build so I'm following suit. I really believe that list to be the best and most of the other builds are trying to do things they don't have to do. You're using a logic that is completely ridiculous: Trying to open the game with six cards (potentially five) and banking on your opponent opening with a Force of Will. That's sub-optimal. I've won/Top 4'ed the local tournament in Syracuse the last four weeks in a row through about 40 Force of Wills. You need to understand that you shouldn't be playing around your opponent's hand - they should be playing around yours - that's why they mulligan if they don't open with a Force, because they're afraid you'll win. All you're doing is wasting precious mana acceleration with cards that ultimately serve no purpose.

Mulliganing aggressively is critical, yes. But resetting your hand into a bunch of reactive cards is not what you want to do with a combo deck.



You'd, um, kind of lose the game by then - there'd be no race. And, Leyline gives your 1/1's +1/+1...that doesn't get around Pyroclasm, so I don't understand that logic. If they're going to kill your creatures, then they'll do it regardless of Leyline. Ultimately it won't be lethal. If you're speaking of swinging in before they Pyroclasm, that won't matter because - again - storm won't be lethal with cards like Pyroblast, more Leylines, and more Serum Powders in your main build. The bottom line is, you're going to have to pick a hand to open with. And you might end up finding yourself with a set of cards sans Serum Powder with the other cards that will give you an auto loss. You have to consider opening a hand with those cards and not being able to do anything. Plus, if your opponent drops E.E. , you're more than likely already screwed because the basis of the debate is based on you "racing" those cards. If that hits the table, your only out is Belcher or Shattering Spree.

I didn't start a flame war, the question was "which cards increase the speed of the deck," and I assumed that it meant which cards resulted in the fastest GGs based on the turn the opponent's life reaches 0 in RG Belcher. Your assuming that A) you're an expert on the issue and I'm not B) your opinion is sufficient to dismiss my analysis with out any definitive factual or argumentative basis and C) we're discussing RGB Belcher instead of RG Belcher.


The simple fact of the matter is that RG Belcher is a 52 card deck, it could function with 8 Kobolds for the soul purposes of generating storm for Empty the Warrens and imprinting red mana on Chrome Mox. What you do with those last 8 cards is a marginal decision. RGB Belcher was dismissed because Dark Ritual was an inconsistent mana source, Wild Cantor was unnecessary with out Dark Ritual and the second land resulted in misfires. Other people found that the deck was more consistent with out black and a Bayou, and RG Belcher became the standard. If you want to play RGB Belcher, that's fine, but this argument doesn't pertain to you, because you've already made up your mind on what to do with the remaining slots.


Your reasoning against Leyline of the Meek is misinformed, R/g Belcher generates at least 5 storm if it can resolve Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens, and 5 storm is the average storm count from a 7 card hand. Considering 5 storm from 6 card hands isn't uncommon, and Leyline of the Meek is essentially -1 storm (comparing it to Wild Cantor) for a Crusade, you always net a positive gain. Even if that positive gain isn't enough to race Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed, it still races Wrath of God or Damnation while surviving Empty the Warrens specific removal.

Note: I think the definition of race was clear in this instance, and if it wasn't, then you've already figured it out for yourself.

I've tested both cards extensively, and they're perfectly functional even if they aren't necessarily optimal. Regardless of their playability, if you put RG Belcher + 4 Serum Powder and +4 Leyline of the Meek into the program, I'm certain they'll produce the fastest wins.

I apologize if my post confused you, but I think I laid out my argument and its parameters concisely. Personally, I couldn't figure out what you were talking about until I re-read your post and came across "wasting precious mana acceleration" before I realized you were playing RGB or "CRET" Belcher, which is really its own deck, because you can't possibly argue cutting the 9 to 5 cards that differentiate it from RG Belcher.

[Iranon]

I really think decks need to meet 3 criteria to benefit from Serum Powder:

1) they need to have a powerful, focused game plan - check.
2) they need to consist mostly of 3-ofs and 4-ofs - check.
3) they need to actually be able to use it in the actual game - nope.

Yes, you can still win with some hands containing a blank and the option to take free mulligans sounds nice... but it is perfectly pointless. 'Take this 7-card hand or a random six-card hand' becomes 'take this 6-card hand or a random 7-card hand' which isn't necessarily better. What's worse, if you have 2 Powders in your opening grip, it becomes 'take this 5-card hand or a random 7-card hand' which is worse; to say nothing of the annoyance of topdecking one.

I will gladly use the card in mono-Silver Stax but not in a deck that will wish to use its mana distributed over 2 turns at most.

[badjuju]

Hey guys,

It's been a while. I ended up selling a lot of my cards after a crushing defeat at a large Legacy tournament back in December. I simply lost interest in the game. However, I, for whatever reason, could not bring myself to part with Belcher. The deck is simple enough for me to pick up any time and try my luck in a tournament and what do you know? Big tournament coming up again...this time I won't make the same mistakes.

Few questions I'd like addressed.

-Since my absence, it seems like Goblins has returned to the forefront. There is also a large showing of Monowhite Stax, Faerie Stompy, and Dragon Stompy decks -- how have you faired against these archetypes?
-I've been looking up recent high-placing belcher lists...all of them seem to be running black. The version I had used before deciding to quit was a pure R/G 1-land deck w/ Magus of the Moons. I suppose Magus didn't prevail and will still be a heavy metagame call. Is black w/ Spoils of the Vault and whatnot the way to go now?
-In my testing, two lands was always a hinderance. In my testing, two lands with one BAYOU, was an even greater hinderance. Thus, I've never advocated the use of black in the deck. Is it really worth the risk?

I'd like to see some optimal and/or successful decklists!

[Pulp_Fiction]

In my opinion black MUST be in the deck. The acceleration gained from Dark Ritual and the searching powers of Spoils or Plunge into Darkness as well as Thoughtseize/Duress in the SB help the deck a lot. Now, I am an advocate of Spoils of the Vault. It really just makes the deck INSANELY explosive and generally when cast allows the deck to combo out that turn as opposed to Plunge into Darkness which you will generally be able to go off the turn after it is cast. True to the nature of the card you will kill yourself with Spoils. It happens. But the tradeoff between comboing off turn 1 over turn 2 is IMOP worth the risk. I rarely play Belcher anymore, all things aside I play Spanish Inquisition, the 2 land version because it is simply a better, more explosive, and more resiliant deck (from my experience and testing). But the list I ran for Belcher is:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Spoils of the Vault

4x Seething Song
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Rite of Flame

4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall

4x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal

4x Land Grant
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

SB
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Hull Breach
1x Pyroclasm
1x Cave-In
1x Reverent Silence
1x Metagame Slot (I like Seeds of Innocence here)
3x Shattering Spree
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress (could be 3x Pyroblast)

If you want a very controlled version of Belcher play with Plunge into Darkness, but the Spoils version is a LOT faster and a little more consistent. Personally I have never been a fan of the 1x land versions or any of the R/G versions but again, when it comes to pure speed no version of Belcher is faster than the Spoils version from what I have seen or tested.

EDIT: Of the 3x times I brought Belcher to my weekly Legacy tournament with a turnout of 15-25 people I made the top 8 once, the top 4 once, and split in the finals once. That speaks strongly of the decks consistency.

[badjuju]

Thanks for the thorough answer.

I'll definitely test the black version with Spoils now (I am DEFINITELY a fan of the card). Also, what do you board out for hand disruption? (I'm guessing Seething Songs then 1-ofs of other cards?)

[edgewalker]

Wasn't spoils played in the first versions of belcher. If I remember right it was dropped because you lost too many games to the card for it to be actually effective.

[matelml]

What are the chances on losing 20 (or more) life with Spoils when you name a card that's not in your hand on turn 1 or 2?

[Soto]

Imo the best Belcher list that ever was is the CRET belcher. It's around here somewhere, only thing that needs to be changed are some things in the sideboard, otherwise it's the most consistent one.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Thanks for the thorough answer.

I'll definitely test the black version with Spoils now (I am DEFINITELY a fan of the card). Also, what do you board out for hand disruption? (I'm guessing Seething Songs then 1-ofs of other cards?)

I usually take out something like 2x Seething Song, 2x Tinder Wall, and 1x of each Spirit Guide. For the most part what acceleration you take out doesn't matter so long as you keep pretty much all of the black cards in the deck to imprint on Chrome Mox (taking out 1-2 Cabal Ritual would also be fine but I wouldn't recommend it).

It is not very likely that you will kill yourself with Spoils so long as you do the math first. Like if you name Rite of Flame and have 2x Rite of Flame in your hand, that is not a good chance of survival. Try to think of Spoils as a pseudo Burning Wish, numerous times I have emptied my hand and cracked and LED with Spoils on the stack naming Empty the Warrens. And really, the life loss from Spoils (from what I have seen) is almost less than that of Plunge into Darkness because depending on the situation you almost always pay 8-14 life. It is also great for milling away lands. Casting Spoils and watching your lands be milled away is great, all the better for Belcher. But there will be times where you kill yourself with it. There will be 4x Belcher left in the deck and taking 20 from Spoils naming Belcher sucks, it happens, but not to often. To some people that is unacceptable which is fine, but due to the nature of decks that can consistently win on turns 1-3 I think it is just an assumed risk.

[badjuju]

I looked back at the original list and I am wondering why would you ever want to play black for just 4x Dark Ritual and 1x Duress/Thoughtseize and 1x Infernal in the side. From my experience playing the deck the inconsistencies from adding in 4x dark ritual just arent even worth it. My question is why would you ever play black in belcher without Spoils of the Vault or Plunge into Darkness in the main?

After doing some more research and talking to people, I've found that the actual difference between the decks is minimal. I did about 50 goldfishes with each version (ontop of my previous experience with the deck), and I've found the results to be pretty much the same.

BLACK
-for Dark Ritual is basically trying to eliminate that last slot that the R/G version doesn't have. I'll be honest, I've had some explosive starts that I don't usually get with R/G, but I also flip Bayou often enough that it makes me worried about the odds of it happening in a tournament.
-for tutors is probably unnecessary. The deck is consistent enough by packing 11 win conditions - I will occassionally mulligan down to six or even five to hit a win condition but it's not very often that I do.

STRAIGHT RG
-offers the same punch without worrying about flipping a Bayou and balancing R, G, and B sources.
-the final four slots can just as easily be Street Wraith, effectively cutting fat and increasing the chance of finding cards you need to win. Contrary to popular belief, I've never really found it that hard to decide mulligans with a Street Wraith in my opening hand.
-these slots can also be used for Magus or Pyroblast, depending on metagame.
-with this setup I am also able to run one land. Many argue that you lose stability, but I haven't really found it to be a problem...if you're looking for stability, you're already on the long road from winning.

I can't really decide between CRET and RG 1-land right now, but I suspect the difference won't be that big. I can't see any clear advantages or disadvantages between the two, because they balance out pretty well.

I'm also having trouble deciding a proper sideboard. Do people prefer hand disruption? Or does rolling with Blasts/Swarms/Sprees been working out fine?

[Mental]

In my experiance Belcher sideboards consist of Blasts and Sprees, and some wish targets. I'd say 5-6 Blasts is standard, and 4 Sprees.

[Michael Keller]

In my experiance Belcher sideboards consist of Blasts and Sprees, and some wish targets. I'd say 5-6 Blasts is standard, and 4 Sprees.

Four Spree is far too many. Two, tops. How often are you going to need to expend mana into a Burning Wish to go for a second Shattering Spree, let alone a fourth, with Replicate? The sideboard should consist of 6-8 relevant Blast effects. This allows you to more readily combat the game two and three traditional oceanic hate that is sure to come in against you. And if they play Explosives - all you can do is cry and go into top-deck mode. Spree is generally there only for Needle, and that pretty much it. If your opponent knows you're going to dump your hand for 12 tokens, they're ready to clear your board with open mana.

[badjuju]

Ok now the board is getting really cluttered if we're going to shove in 6-8 Blast effects, unless you're going to count hand disruption under the same category.

Necessary (5):

Empty the Warrens
Goblin War Strike
Infernal Tutor
Shattering Spree x2

Then you need enchantment removal, which can be (at least one is necessary):

Simplify
Reverent Silence
Hull Breach

To make breathing room:

Pyroclasm
Cave-In

Anti-blue:

Pyroblast
Red Elemental Blast
Xantid Swarm

Hand Disruption:

Thoughtseize
Duress

Other:

Tendrils of Agony
Diminishing Returns
Magus of the Moon


I omitted other random stuff such as Grapeshot, Ignite Memories, and creature-based sideboard strategies. With the remaining 10 slots, how would you best configure for a wide metagame? How would you decide between the different enchantment removal spells and/or Pyroclasm vs. Cave-In?

[Michael Keller]

With the remaining 10 slots, how would you best configure for a wide metagame? How would you decide between the different enchantment removal spells and/or Pyroclasm vs. Cave-In?

1.) It's just the same: Continue to run the necessary silver bullets in your sideboard that can combat everything that they try to throw on you.

2.) You should play both, if you want. I find myself playing Pyroclasm, but Cave In is very good and gets around a miscellaneous Chalice at two (if they get that far).

A lot of people read more into the Belcher sideboard than they really should. Burning Wish is really just another Empty the Warrens, a Demonic Tutor, or a Timetwister. You can have a makeshift sideboard with answers, but these should be staples:

6-8 Blasts
Diminishing Returns
Infernal Tutor
Duress/Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Shattering Spree

This leaves 2-4 open slots that are really just wide open. When you play Belcher, you'll find yourself rarely going for the other targets with Wish.

[badjuju]

1.) It's just the same: Continue to run the necessary silver bullets in your sideboard that can combat everything that they try to throw on you.

2.) You should play both, if you want. I find myself playing Pyroclasm, but Cave In is very good and gets around a miscellaneous Chalice at two (if they get that far).

A lot of people read more into the Belcher sideboard than they really should. Burning Wish is really just another Empty the Warrens, a Demonic Tutor, or a Timetwister. You can have a makeshift sideboard with answers, but these should be staples:

6-8 Blasts
Diminishing Returns
Infernal Tutor
Duress/Therapy/Thoughtseize
2 Shattering Spree

This leaves 2-4 open slots that are really just wide open. When you play Belcher, you'll find yourself rarely going for the other targets with Wish.

That's true. In all of my playtesting against various opponents...95% of the time my wish is just going to be for EtW. If I'm wishing for anything else, I'm already in a jam.

[syssc9]

I've been playing the straight RG build with Street Wraiths for the 56 card effect. The last 4 slots are usually blasts, but I have been doing some goldfishing with 2-4 Storm Entity. I know, I know - StP. The reason for my experiments is I really would like to have more than 11 kills, at least in game 1. After all, 15 > 11. So is 13. If I get Storm Entity and another kill condition, I always choose the other kill. The main benefit seems to be less Mulligans. I also occasionally get hands that generate enough manna to cast EtW or Belcher as well as SE. Thoughts?

[matelml]

After all, 15 > 11.

It depends on what you mean with 15>11. On forums ">" is often used as "is better", which doesn't have to be true in this case.

[syssc9]

Gosh, sorry. I guess I am just to mathematical at heart. I thought I was saying 15 (or even 13) win conditions is greater than 11 win conditions, or at least might result in a few less mulligans. Maybe. Sometimes.

[GGoober]

Actually, I am not sure but isn't Summoner's Pact a good card to run in Belcher?

It acts as a storm count and a tutor for Elvish Spirit Guide, and helps thin the deck out. For builds running Tinder Wall, it can search up Tinder Wall for red mana acceleration.

This card is only good if you are going for the kill on that turn though, just wondering.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yeha and the storm count is only for ETW? So you need another turn...?

[b4r0n]

Yeah, Pact + Empty the Warrens is not a combo. It also seems risky if you're going for Belcher, since a Force or a Stifle means that you lose, rather than just fizzle; I've found that the deck is surprisingly good at recovering from failed combo attempts over the course of several turns. So overall, Pact just doesn't seem like a good fit.

[monopoman]

Manamorphose :1::rg:
Instant Common
Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Well looks like Belcher got a new toy out of this set. Seems like this is an auto include from how good it seems. It may be a 0 net on mana gain but you can fix your mana then draw a card.

Maybe this card nearly blows Wild Cantor out of the water?

[kicks_422]

Not really. Wild Cantor, you can cast on Turn 1 to have +1 mana next turn. In a straight R/G build, I don't see why the deck would ever need mana filtering.

[BreathWeapon]

Not really. Wild Cantor, you can cast on Turn 1 to have +1 mana next turn. In a straight R/G build, I don't see why the deck would ever need mana filtering.

Manamorphosis converts R to G, G to R, imprints for R/G all while being a non LED source of UU for Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns. The draw a card is + storm/mana production 75% of the time, which is better than Wild Cantor pass 100% of the time.

[monopoman]

Yeah I realize the turn 1 play of wild cantor pass and having +1 mana next turn.

But the ability to draw a card off this thing while prepping yourself for any mana you need is damn good.

Especially since odds are you will topdeck a +mana effect. The only downside I see is the whole street wraith factor making it hard to know what hands to keep.

Maybe running this with Street Wraith can be a possiblity cause while opening hands would be even harder. the fact of the matter is you will be digging even deeper to get what you want.

And you can get multiples going like street wraith draw this play this street wraith etc..

Sure not guaranteed to happen but getting 2 in a row can happen pretty regularly.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Recently at my local tournament I made it to the top 4 out of 23 people and we all split. Here is my list:

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
1x Bayou
No kidding, out of 8 games this deck went off no later than turn 2. It was disgusting. Now the reason I post this is because I have a new SB for Belcher and I was curious about people's thoughts.

SB:
1x Reverent Silence
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Pyroclasm
2x Shattering Spree
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker

I stripped the standard wishboard down to the bare minimum because after a little while of playing the deck, it occurred to me the only things I ever wish for is Empty the Warrens and Shattering Spree. Reverent Silence needs to be there just in case and Pyroclasm is also there just because I think it needs to be (random Gaddock Teeg will show up). But other stuff like Goblin War Strike and Hull Breach .... etc, I think is just nice to have but altogether not necessary. The same with the blast plan. Running 6-8 Red/Pyroblast in the SB really just isn't getting the job done so I thought I would try a drastically different approach to the SB. The Duress and Thoughtseize work VERY well and since I run Cabal Ritual instead of Cantor/Desperate Ritual things work out just fine. As far as sideboarding goes, this is meant strictly for Thresh/Blue Counterbalance control type decks. I take out 4x Burning Wish, 4x LED, 3x Tinder Wall and put in the 3x Duress, 3x Thoughtseize, 4x Tombstalker, and 1x Empty the Warrens. It is quite effective against countertop which gives this deck such a hard time and it is especially nice to have the hand destruction in the combo mirror. Thoughts?

[Michael Keller]

I stripped the standard wishboard down to the bare minimum because after a little while of playing the deck, it occurred to me the only things I ever wish for is Empty the Warrens and Shattering Spree. Reverent Silence needs to be there just in case and Pyroclasm is also there just because I think it needs to be (random Gaddock Teeg will show up). But other stuff like Goblin War Strike and Hull Breach .... etc, I think is just nice to have but altogether not necessary. The same with the blast plan. Running 6-8 Red/Pyroblast in the SB really just isn't getting the job done so I thought I would try a drastically different approach to the SB. The Duress and Thoughtseize work VERY well and since I run Cabal Ritual instead of Cantor/Desperate Ritual things work out just fine. As far as sideboarding goes, this is meant strictly for Thresh/Blue Counterbalance control type decks. I take out 4x Burning Wish, 4x LED, 3x Tinder Wall and put in the 3x Duress, 3x Thoughtseize, 4x Tombstalker, and 1x Empty the Warrens. It is quite effective against countertop which gives this deck such a hard time and it is especially nice to have the hand destruction in the combo mirror. Thoughts?

These are very valid points and we should all further address how to shape and tune the sideboard so it looks crisp. Wish targets that are not mandatory carry dead weight. The whole idea behind the structure of the deck is to combo out within the first two turns, and most of the other sideboard options are nice, but they're just obligatory when it comes to trying to win. As all in agreement, these cards are staple in the sideboard (sans Blasts):

Thoughtseize
Shattering Spree
Empty the Warrens
Infernal Tutor
Diminishing Returns
Reverent Silence

Considering this, and the inclusion of 6-8 Blast effects, perhaps taking the sideboard into a new direction that could be more proactive than reactive might be worth a try. At Comix Zone yesterday, myself along with Bigbear and Konsultant shot out the idea of Earthquake or Demonfire. There was even a chuckle to Dry Spell (which, not to be taken seriously, is at worst a semi-decent choice over some of the other dead weight the current board is carrying].

I really feel the sideboard needs a plan of action. It's missing a silver bullet, and bad.

[BreathWeapon]

What most people fail to understand is that Belcher is a turn 1 combo deck, if you have to wish for removal, you've already lost. Short of Empty the Warrens, Diminishing Returns, Cave In and Reverent Silence, I don't think I've ever wished for another SB target, and I can't even remember the last time I wished for Cave In or Referent Silence.

On the other hand, Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains are seriously appealing now that Manamorphose gives the deck access to BB.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I LOVE Manamorphose but I am not crazy about it. The thing that scares me about it is that it doesn't add mana, now drawing a card the turn you are going off is amazing in a deck like Belcher, but much like Street Wraith it leaves a lot of very questionable cards you may draw. I am definitely going to test it, probably in the spot of Tinder Wall or Rite of Flame. What spot does everyone think Manamorphose should occupy?

Tendrils of Agony and IGG are not for Belcher, they can be random wish targets and usually work out fine with an LED or 2 in play, but we should certainly keep IGG out of Belcher because this deck's second greatest strength (besides speed) is that it doesn't use the graveyard, and when you start adding in cards like that you make it very vulnerable to even more storm combo hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void. Plus, if you start adding in IGG and Tendrils you might as well just play 2x land SI.

[BreathWeapon]

I LOVE Manamorphose but I am not crazy about it. The thing that scares me about it is that it doesn't add mana, now drawing a card the turn you are going off is amazing in a deck like Belcher, but much like Street Wraith it leaves a lot of very questionable cards you may draw. I am definitely going to test it, probably in the spot of Tinder Wall or Rite of Flame. What spot does everyone think Manamorphose should occupy?

Tendrils of Agony and IGG are not for Belcher, they can be random wish targets and usually work out fine with an LED or 2 in play, but we should certainly keep IGG out of Belcher because this deck's second greatest strength (besides speed) is that it doesn't use the graveyard, and when you start adding in cards like that you make it very vulnerable to even more storm combo hate cards like Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void. Plus, if you start adding in IGG and Tendrils you might as well just play 2x land SI.

Don't cut Tinder Wall or Right of Flame for Manamorphose, Manamorphose goes into one of the 8 open slots in R/g Belcher or in Wild Cantor's slot in R/g/b Belcher.

Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains are fine, if you Burning Wish -> Diminishing Returns or Living Wish -> Slithermuse then Burning Wish can grab Tendrils of Agony instead of Empty the Warrens and end the game in a single turn, while Ill Gotten Gains turns a double Burning Wish hand into a guaranteed kill instead of going for an Empty the Warrens or a Diminishing Returns, or it generates storm for a Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens hand while discarding half of the opponent's cards.

If some one sides in GY hate against Belcher because I'm SBing Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains, I'll nominate them for a Darwin award.

[Michael Keller]

I am going to go into some detail about the current sideboard and how it can be optimized. I sat down with Fakespam and we discussed in great detail some new choices. Some of these might seem controversial, but there has been an ongoing paradox as to what to include and exclude as it pertains to the sideboard. Understand that the idea here is to gain a different perspective as to how to make the sideboard more proactive than reactive. Because frankly, the mechanics behind most Belcher sideboards are just too reactive (which is really the opposite of the idea. Keeping in mind, you're going to try and combo out as soon as possible. With that said, here are the current sideboard cards which I feel are dead weight:

Goblin War Cry
Target opponent chooses a creature he or she controls. Other creatures he or she controls can't block this turn.

Okay, the only way I can see this card being somewhat useful is when you find yourself in a situation where your opponent has dropped a Moat in play. Assuming you actually get to turn four without killing him/her first, there should be no situation that would warrant a single Burning Wish to deal a minimal amount of damage when your opponent should already be dead with that many tokens on board.

Pyroclasm
Pyroclasm deals 2 damage to each creature.

If you're going to expend a sincere amount of mana looking to off an opposing army without Wishing into a Warrens and making one of your own, you've probably already lost. What sense would it make to waste one of your win conditions by offing a few creatures on your opponents side without dealing any damage to him/her? You only play two land, so you'd ideally waste an additional acceleration component in order to cast this, and for what?It just doesn't add up. The card is great, don't get me wrong, but not here. I've won consistently with the deck for a long while now and I have never once wished for it, ever.

Cave-In
You may remove a red card in your hand from the game rather than pay Cave-In's mana cost. Cave-In deals 2 damage to each creature and each player.

Again, but this time you're putting yourself at card disadvantage to off a few creatures your opponent has at the low cost of three of your own cards. Every bit of acceleration is key. And there should be no excuse dumping another [situational] card in your hand and wasting a Burning Wish to do this. It's just not worth the effort, people.

Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast
Choose one - Counter target spell if it's blue; or destroy target permanent if it's blue.

The truth is, these cards read: Counter a spell if it's name is Force of Will or Stifle. Assuming you're on the draw, you're opponent has already played a land. Let's make no mistake: These cards are great. But the truth is, what is better: Thoughtseize or one of these in your opening grip? I don't think these cards stop Krosan Grip, Extirpate, anything obnoxious, etc. People will argue with me on this, but they are not essential. Again, another slot I feel like I am forced to board in based on lack of options. Thoughtseize is strictly better. Hell, so is Duress. This way you are at least stopping an opponent from doing something before you combo and not mid-stream. You're better off knocking out that card before they decide to use it. Some people play both, and I can understand. But not for me. Belcher's worst matchup is control, but these cards function essentially the same way. It's just one is better, and that's Thoughtseize. Keep in mind: In order for these to be useful, you have to open hand one of them with a kill condition. Too situational. With Thoughtseize game one at least you're putting yourself in a position where you can wish for one.

The 2nd Shattering Spree Theory
There should be no excuse for expending two Burning Wish for this second copy. It is a wasted slot not only in your sideboard, but your main-deck as well. You are rendering Burning Wish a waste as well. Remember, the only way to get a Burning Wish - is by top-decking it. And if you're going to use it on a second Shattering Spree, you've more than likely already lost. One is essential. Two is not.


With all of that being said, I spend a lot of time evaluating cards from older sets all the way until the newest block. These are some choices myself and a few other Sourcers present as efficient and innovative ways to altering what was a reactive, dead-weight sideboard into a more creative and proactive sideboard. I have confidence in these selections as they at least do something.

Dry Spell
Dry Spell deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

In many games I'm forced to deal with killing an opponent when their life total is so low but followed by a stabilizing blow or stroke of bad luck. This spell knocks off not only creatures, but it deals damage to an opponent as well. This card hits every creature on the board. What's one damage, you say? Just think about all the relevant creatures in the format. Most of their asses are one. And their have been many instances an opponent has seriously gone to one or two life and then you are unable to recover because they've stabilized somehow. It doesn't specifically target an opponent, which is a bonus. It's a black Earthquake for one. 'Nuff said.

Mana Clash
You and target opponent each flip a coin. Mana Clash deals 1 damage to each player whose coin comes up tails. Repeat this process until both players' coins come up heads on the same flip.

I've been there: You're on the ropes and you're hoping for the best possible scenario. We've all been there and know how it feels to lose a pivotal match where you think you can win, but just couldn't. Why give yourself a five to ten percent chance of just staying alive when you can give yourself a seventy five percent chance to win? Okay, I know that's a bit of an exaggeration (somewhat, not totally), but think about it: You're staring down serious damage or a combo-out and maybe you've already hit an opponent and they've stabilized (or maybe not, it's irrelevant). This can be your silver bullet, because guess what: You've just put the game in fate's hands rather than your opponents at the cost of one mana. That sounds very appealing to me - and that's why I'm playing it. It's the coolest alternate win condition ever printed and it's an out when you're staring down a loss.

Goblin Welder
Choose target artifact a player controls and target artifact card in that player's graveyard. If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player sacrifices the artifact in play, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

This guy was actually in the original 'standard' Belcher builds years ago. Who's to say he still doesn't have the juice? He usually milks a Force and he's a one-drop. He turns your artifacts into Belchers or LED's. And guess what: You're opponent is boarding out creature removal games two and three. And if this guy gets active, that can pose a potentially very serious threat to your opponent.

These are some choices which I feel will turn the deck around and make the sideboard a little more proactive than reactive. After all, that is what Belcher should do best, but the way it was written, just wasn't true. Look, the idea is this: If you're wishing for something other than a win condition (whether it be lack of mana acceleration in your hand or whatever), then chances are you are freakin' desperate.

And desperate times call for desperate measures.

[Jaiminho]

Aren't those thought of "you've already lost anyway" overrated? I mean... you can win after trying to go off N times if you haven't actually lost, can't you?


EDIT - I forgot to read something, so I changed my post to something less dumb.

[Michael Keller]

We're referring to the sideboard. If you want to win with a card in your main build, you'll have to top-deck it. With Burning Wish you have outs in your sideboard. And the "you've lost already" theory is not overrated. The longer the game continues, the less chances you have of winning. There's too much heat in the format these days to get away with murder the old-fashioned way. And again, it's a matter of pro-activity vs. re-activity. I want to be able to Wish for something that increases my chances more-so of winning, not staying alive.

[BreathWeapon]

Goblin Warstrike is one of the additional SB targets I don't mind using, because Belcher tendrs to draws hands with both a threat and a Burning Wish a lot, and Burning Wish -> Goblin Warstrike turns a dead Burning Wish into a Time Walk for Empty the Warrens at a reasonable mana cost.

Blasts are a lot better than discard in practice, sure discard is better in theory, but the B mana causes it to be prohibitive in a R/g/x deck.

I like Goblin Welder in the SB a lot, he baits Force of Will like a champion.

[Bovinious]

I am going to go into some detail about the current sideboard and how it can be optimized. I sat down with Fakespam and we discussed in great detail some new choices. Some of these might seem controversial, but there has been an ongoing paradox as to what to include and exclude as it pertains to the sideboard. Understand that the idea here is to gain a different perspective as to how to make the sideboard more proactive than reactive. Because frankly, the mechanics behind most Belcher sideboards are just too reactive (which is really the opposite of the idea. Keeping in mind, you're going to try and combo out as soon as possible. With that said, here are the current sideboard cards which I feel are dead weight:

Goblin War Cry
Target opponent chooses a creature he or she controls. Other creatures he or she controls can't block this turn.

Dry Spell
Dry Spell deals 1 damage to each creature and each player.

Goblin War Cry should be Goblin War Strike, and Dry Spell is awful, Cave-In does 2 damage to each creature and player, and is also not awful and in color (black was cut from good lists months and months ago).

Also, have you guys seen the new spell from Shadowmoor Manamorphose? It costs :1: :rg: , add 2 mana of any color combination to your mana pool, draw a card. Its probably better than Cantor, not sure if its better than Street Wraith since this deck doesnt usually need to color fix, just didnt see much discussion on it.

[BreathWeapon]

Yes, we did, the general conception is that it's an automatic inclusion. The 2x color fixing is useful for SB wish targets as well.

[Michael Keller]

Goblin War Cry should be Goblin War Strike, and Dry Spell is awful, Cave-In does 2 damage to each creature and player, and is also not awful and in color (black was cut from good lists months and months ago).

Also, have you guys seen the new spell from Shadowmoor Manamorphose? It costs :1: :rg: , add 2 mana of any color combination to your mana pool, draw a card. Its probably better than Cantor, not sure if its better than Street Wraith since this deck doesnt usually need to color fix, just didnt see much discussion on it.

Cave-In is not a good choice. Yeah, it's free. If you're willing to dump another [red] card in your hand. Again, being situational. You have enough acceleration to get whatever color you need. That shouldn't be a problem in a deck STRUCTURED as a mana-producing machine.

And I play black in my list in Syracuse. And I've top 4'ed 9 weeks in a row with it in Syracuse - including the Hadley tournament. Black should never have been cut in the first place with acceleration like Dark Ritual which is an auto-pump into Belcher and use with Infernal Tutor and discard effects. My list runs black - and it's good. That's foolish to assume a good list doesn't run black, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"General consensus" should never dictate over results. And results show that black as a subsidiary of the main two colors has proven time and time again to be critical. Dark Ritual itself has won me more rounds than I can remember. Even Pulp's list runs black. And I'm sure his is consistent as well. Apologies on the name of Goblin War Strike. Sorry I forgot what it's name was - it only sat in my sideboard for the last three months and has dust all over it.

[sunshine]

@A Lengend + mana clash

After doing a little bit of math it's not hard to show that the average number of rounds of flips you get from mana class is between three and four. Supposing you were rather lucky and got six rounds of flips (this happens about 23.7% of the time) your oponenet on average would get three heads and three tails, just like you. If you're just looking for a one mana sorcery to do the last few points of damage wouldn't chain lightning be a better option? I think having some reach to wish for is great, and mana clash is cute, but it only will do as much damage as chain lightning less than a quarter of the time.

[BreathWeapon]

Sometimes Belcher can just wish for Tendrils if it needs to put the finishing move on the opponent, I've seen a couple people sport that card in their SB for such a purpose, and between that and Cave In there shouldn't be a problem.

I'm not big on Dry Spell or Mana Clash, they seem decidedly bad.

[Wallace]

Cave-In is not a good choice. Yeah, it's free. If you're willing to dump another [red] card in your hand. Again, being situational. You have enough acceleration to get whatever color you need. That shouldn't be a problem in a deck STRUCTURED as a mana-producing machine.

And I play black in my list in Syracuse. And I've top 4'ed 9 weeks in a row with it in Syracuse - including the Hadley tournament. Black should never have been cut in the first place with acceleration like Dark Ritual which is an auto-pump into Belcher and use with Infernal Tutor and discard effects. My list runs black - and it's good. That's foolish to assume a good list doesn't run black, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"General consensus" should never dictate over results. And results show that black as a subsidiary of the main two colors has proven time and time again to be critical. Dark Ritual itself has won me more rounds than I can remember. Even Pulp's list runs black. And I'm sure his is consistent as well. Apologies on the name of Goblin War Strike. Sorry I forgot what it's name was - it only sat in my sideboard for the last three months and has dust all over it.

Cave-In is also screwed over by Gaddok Teeg, just use good old Pyroclasm.

[Michael Keller]

I've thought of Chain Lightning and it's not bad. It decidedly better than some of the original choices. It's a matter of preference, really. And you shouldn't really use a probability method with Mana Clash, because each flip is separate and there's a 75% chance each time someone will take damage with no variable. If you're going to lose anyways, it's a one-mana out. If there's one better, I'm all for it.

[BreathWeapon]

Cave-In is also screwed over by Gaddok Teeg, just use good old Pyroclasm.

It's not either or, but I find Cave-In is more mana/turn efficient than Pyrocasm a lot of the time, it's not like Belcher has a lot of permanent mana at its disposal, and Cave-In can discard redundant threats to resolve itself.

I don't see Gaddok Teeg enough to care, usually I'm just trying to get rid of a Meddling Mage. Chain Lightning may be better than either Cave-In or Pyroclasm at that rate tho', I actually have no idea why any one plays Pyroclasm.

[Michael Keller]

I don't see Gaddok Teeg enough to care...

Absolutely. I rarely see him or Meddling Mage. I think everyone's kind of mulled over Chain Lightning at one point or another. It seems like a feasible choice.

[Zach Tartell]

I actually have no idea why any one plays Pyroclasm.

Really? What about the TES or Belcher Mirror match? The sort of "I'll make 24 goblins, pass the turn."

Pyroclasm is good.

[Michael Keller]

Really? What about the TES or Belcher Mirror match? The sort of "I'll make 24 goblins, pass the turn."

Pyroclasm is good.

In that instance - wouldn't Dry Spell be good? (:cool:)

In all seriousness though, I've never had to really worry about Goblin tokens facing down Goblin tokens. It's basically comes down to evaluating how many Goblins you can make to counter-act their Empty the Warrens. Or you could just try the Belcher out. It's just rare that it happens in the local metagame, but I could advocate either Pyroclasm or Cave-in for a major tournament setting. I really want to say it's good here, but I just haven't used it yet to say it is.

[Bovinious]

Cave-In is not a good choice. Yeah, it's free. If you're willing to dump another [red] card in your hand. Again, being situational. You have enough acceleration to get whatever color you need. That shouldn't be a problem in a deck STRUCTURED as a mana-producing machine.

And I play black in my list in Syracuse. And I've top 4'ed 9 weeks in a row with it in Syracuse - including the Hadley tournament. Black should never have been cut in the first place with acceleration like Dark Ritual which is an auto-pump into Belcher and use with Infernal Tutor and discard effects. My list runs black - and it's good. That's foolish to assume a good list doesn't run black, when you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

"General consensus" should never dictate over results. And results show that black as a subsidiary of the main two colors has proven time and time again to be critical. Dark Ritual itself has won me more rounds than I can remember. Even Pulp's list runs black. And I'm sure his is consistent as well. Apologies on the name of Goblin War Strike. Sorry I forgot what it's name was - it only sat in my sideboard for the last three months and has dust all over it.

Are you really trying to tell me I have no idea what I'm talking about? Youre the one suggesting cutting SB staples for terrible cards like Dry Spell and Mana Clash. And about black, the best lists over the last 9 months or so, particularly in its hayday back last summer/fall, have all been RG, playing 1 or 2 Taiga and Street Wraith/Pyroblast/Cantor MD in place of Dark Rit. Turning up a Bayou really sucks, and you can still play an Infernal Tutor SB if your not running Bayou/Rit. Top8ing in Syracuse with a black list doesnt say all that much to me, since I saw the best versions of this deck in its hayday, and they were all RG. Good decks (like this one) can and sometimes will win with subpar card choices, Threshold would (and used to) do well playing Werebear in the Tarmogoyf slot. Dont be so quick to attribute your success to a subpar choice, or to insult others who do know the deck despite your flame.

[Michael Keller]

How can you attribute those cards as sideboard staples? What, because "everyone" plays them? Is that how we function in this forum?

What people don't understand is that just because people decide to play those cards in their sideboard doesn't mean they're instantly "good". The cards I presented are far from horrible. The truth is - cards like Pyroclasm and Goblin War Strike are essentially dead. They serve no way as an alternate method to kill or stun an opponent when the game is on the line.

Goblin War Strike is ONLY relevant when Moat is in play.
Pyroclasm is ONLY relevant when YOU'RE the one facing down an army of Goblins or a random Gaddock Teeg. Which should NEVER be the case because that's what this deck does best anyways.

What makes you think an Earthquake for one is bad? I don't understand your logic. What, because it's black? Color is irrelevant. You have enough colored acceleration to get what you need. Hell, even Earthquake itself is a fine choice. Maybe even Hurricane. Anything as a finisher. It's a starting point.

And Mana Clash is far from terrible. If you're going to lose anyways, who's to say you can't deal 6-8 damage to someone off that card when you're going to die anyways? I'm guessing you're one of those players who hated it when someone played Shahrazad and then you lost. I just don't see the logic. In reality, everything else in the sideboard is almost irrelevant other than your win conditions.

And how can you play essentially 8 dead cards in the main build? Opening with a Pyroblast when your opponent isn't playing blue? Street Wrath when you can just play another useful card?? It doesn't make sense and you're putting the main build at a gamble. That's not good.

And don't question my success with my build. It's there. Keep on topic.

[Bovinious]

How can you attribute those cards as sideboard staples? What, because "everyone" plays them? Is that how we function in this forum?

What people don't understand is that just because people decide to play those cards in their sideboard doesn't mean they're instantly "good". The cards I presented are far from horrible. The truth is - cards like Pyroclasm and Goblin War Strike are essentially dead. They serve no way as an alternate method to kill or stun an opponent when the game is on the line.

Goblin War Strike is ONLY relevant when Moat is in play.
Pyroclasm is ONLY relevant when YOU'RE the one facing down an army of Goblins or a random Gaddock Teeg. Which should NEVER be the case because that's what this deck does best anyways.

What makes you think an Earthquake for one is bad? I don't understand your logic. What, because it's black? Color is irrelevant. You have enough colored acceleration to get what you need. Hell, even Earthquake itself is a fine choice. Maybe even Hurricane.

And Mana Clash is far from terrible. If you're going to lose anyways, who's to say you can't deal 6-8 damage to someone off that card when you're going to die anyways? I'm guessing you're one of those players who hated it when someone played Shahrazad and then you lost. I just don't see the logic. In reality, everything else in the sideboard is almost irrelevant other than your win conditions.

And don't question my success with my build. It's there. Keep on topic.

Yes, what everyone plays does define what is a staple. Many people in this format play Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, etc, thus they are staples of the format. Just as Pyroclasm, and to a lesser extent Cave-In and Goblin War Strike, are staples of Belcher, and just as Dry Spell and Mana Clash are not. These are definitions, not opinions.

Goblins War Strike is good when Moat is in play, or you have gotten through an attack with your swarm of ETW tokens but are now facing down a big army of Goblins/Zombies, it will win the game for you here. Pyroclasm is good when someone else has a Goblin/Zombie army, but you do not, or if you can afford to lose your army less than they can afford to lose theirs. These cards are NOT dead, they actually help you win games, unlike Dry Spell and Mana Clash which rely on the fact that you are "going to lose anyways". If you are planning on losing anyways, something else is wrong here other than your Burning Wish targets. Dry spell is worse than Pyroclasm simply for the fact that Clasm can kill zombie tokens, commonly made in masses by Ichorid, you know, the 2nd best deck in the format by the March top8 numbers. Also yes, in the case someone has Mage/Teeg, Clasm answers this also, and it also is better against goblins if they summon an army, perhaps after you whiffed on your belcher after flipping the Bayou you shouldnt have been playing in the first place. I dont know what you are talking about with Shahrazad, but it shows your arrogance and how judgmental you are, and this whole back and forth affair shows how you are condescending and refuse to even consider you are wrong because you have made a few top8s in Syralose. Again, good decks can win with subpar choices, and good decks can always improve. Please stop being so immature and debate the cards rather than call my experience into question and repeatedly champion your local top8s and alleged mastery of the archtype.

[Michael Keller]

Right, yeah, anyways:

Goblin War Strike is god awful. How in earth can someone justify playing that when you should have won anyways with those tokens? Good against Moat? How can you justify getting to turn FOUR or FIVE anyways? Without winning, you must have been doing something wrong, sorry. All you're doing by playing that card is justifying your clock as slower and inane. It makes sense, but it isn't optimal. Perhaps Dry Spell isn't either.

Don't consider being put in a bad situation "doing something" wrong, that's just dumb. There's another reason you play Burning Wish, and it's to look for answers when you're on the ropes (apparently something you don't understand). Goblin War Strike is too situational and redundant when you should have won with those tokens anyway. I recommend either Earthquake or Hurricane. They are true finishers which you can pump A LOT of extra acceleration into - assuming just like you do - that they've been hit once for ten or so. Kaervek's Torch isn't bad, either.

[suprafan386]

What bovi is saying with goblin warstrike being good is that it can win you the game after one round of swinging with tokens.

Lets put an example out there you have just made ten tokens say turn one. Turn two you swing with tokes putting your opponent at ten and burning wish for goblin warstrike and win on turn 2. Instead of having to pass the turn and hope they don't draw an engineered explosives, cave-in, flamebreak, etc. Because you need to get in with at least 2 rounds of swinging with those tokens .

Thats why belcher plays it in the wishboard to make the token kill potentially faster.

[Michael Keller]

Right, but first you're going to have to expend your resources getting all those tokens. Second, you'd have to have a SECOND Burning Wish in your hand in order to get that card. Then, you'd have to have enough mana to do it all in one turn. Again, too situational. If you have those tokens, swing. If your opponent has Explosives (for zero), they'll blow it. Your card is a sorcery, where their activation is an instant.

It's like the most narrow of circumstances the card would actually be considered useful. I've never needed it.

[BreathWeapon]

Right, but first you're going to have to expend your resources getting all those tokens. Second, you'd have to have a SECOND Burning Wish in your hand in order to get that card. Then, you'd have to have enough mana to do it all in one turn. Again, too situational. If you have those tokens, swing. If your opponent has Explosives (for zero), they'll blow it. Your card is a sorcery, where their activation is an instant.

It's like the most narrow of circumstances the card would actually be considered useful. I've never needed it.

Dude, I use Burning Wish -> Goblin Warstrike all of the time, it's how you race Pernicious Deed and Pyroclasm.

@Lonely Baritone,

TES isn't going to walk into a 'Clasm against Belcher tho', TES is going to become the control deck and disrupt Belcher with Orim's Chant and keep them off of Goblin Tokens with Burning Wish instead. Belcher is just fucked in the Storm combo mirror, so there is no point in addressing it.

The reason I said, "I don't understand the reason people use Pyroclasm" is because Cave-In is going to be more mana/time efficient for the mass removal effect and Chain Lightning is going to be more mana/time efficient for the targeted removal effect. You are never going to be able to actually wish for Pyroclasm against 2 Meddling Mages, because the second Meddling Mage is going to name Burning Wish, you just SB Pyroclasm so they have to name it.

Between Cave-In and Chain Lightning, I just don't see a point to Pyroclasm.

[Bovinious]

Goblin War Strike is good because sometimes, dare I say it, the opponent may be playing Magic also and have FoW/Daze to set you back a few turns...And Pyroclasm and/or Cave-In is better than Dry Spell because, playing black or not, red is an easier color to get than black, and Clasm kills zombies and x/2s in goblins.

Look, Im through here. If anyone wants anymore of my insights on the best build of the deck PM me, or go read the old CRET Belcher thread in which I helped develop the deck last summer. Im done being accused of flaming and looked upon as some Belcher noob who cant comprehend the new "sekret tek" of Dry Spell and Mana Clash, when in fact I picked up, optimized, and played this deck in tournaments way before most others here. Adios.

[Michael Keller]

Goblin War Strike is good because sometimes, dare I say it, the opponent may be playing Magic also and have FoW/Daze to set you back a few turns...And Pyroclasm and/or Cave-In is better than Dry Spell because, playing black or not, red is an easier color to get than black, and Clasm kills zombies and x/2s in goblins.

Look, Im through here. If anyone wants anymore of my insights on the best build of the deck PM me, or go read the old CRET Belcher thread in which I helped develop the deck last summer. Im done being accused of flaming and looked upon as some Belcher noob who cant comprehend the new "sekret tek" of Dry Spell and Mana Clash, when in fact I picked up, optimized, and played this deck in tournaments way before most others here. Adios.

We value your opinions in this thread. My only reference to those cards weren't necessarily specifics but opening the door to new possibilities. Everyone is entitled to their opinion here. I choose to play black in my build and I've had a great deal of success. If someone else has had success without it, that's fine. There's even a variant that has popped up in Developmental using blue. We should all be open to new possibilities - especially in lists so tight.

[monopoman]

I just want to say I have seen many hands with my belcher list which is a extremely standard list. Where I might as well burning wish for goblin war strike since i need the storm count anyways. Since I'm casting Burning Wish just for storm copies on Empty the Warrens as stated you can play it right away or the turn after when you attack.

There are times when sure you storm up as much as you can and you only have 3R left just enough for empty the warrens.

But I have seen many hands where I get 7+ mana easily with no belcher and burning wish+empty the warrens in hand. So thats where it comes in handy and can be useful.

Some games its gonna be a worthless card but thats why it only occupies one slot in the SB.

[Michael Keller]

I just want to say I have seen many hands with my belcher list which is a extremely standard list. Where I might as well burning wish for goblin war strike since i need the storm count anyways. Since I'm casting Burning Wish just for storm copies on Empty the Warrens as stated you can play it right away or the turn after when you attack.

There are times when sure you storm up as much as you can and you only have 3R left just enough for empty the warrens.

But I have seen many hands where I get 7+ mana easily with no belcher and burning wish+empty the warrens in hand. So thats where it comes in handy and can be useful.

Some games its gonna be a worthless card but thats why it only occupies one slot in the SB.

When you cast Burning Wish, chances are you have no Goblins in play anyways. You'd have to open with a Warrens itself, build up storm, and then combo out. The you'd have to have a Burning Wish or another Burning Wish to get War Strike. So, wouldn't make sense just to - attack? Getting mana to combo out isn't the issue here. It's what to Wish for and is it the best option for the situation at hand. This card isn't. It says no to only one other card in the format which sees rare to little amount of play. Seriously, though: If you were staring down lethal damage (assuming you've nailed your opponent for, let's say, ten - and they've got a few Goyfs out that are 4/5's and they've wiped your board out with an instantly activated Explosives) and you top-decked a Burning Wish - what would you Wish for?

*Remember: Goblin War Strike isn't so hot when your opponent almost certainly can wipe your board at instant speed. The trick here is to locate a card in your sideboard that can win you the game. That's the problem with the sideboard: Have you noticed all the staples like Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor? They win you the game immediately. We need to find cards that can win you the game just as well as they can. Goblin War Strike - albeit one red mana - allows your opponent to go ahead and get an Explosives active because you need to spend at least one turn getting your Goblins in play from a hard-cast or Wished-Warrens. You're better off doing something called attacking - which, in turn, should free up a slot in the sideboard.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I agree and disagree a little here, but I really don't feel the wish targets are THAT important. Certain people like to play different versions of the deck but I totally agree with A Legend that the Goblin War Strike is pointless, you have to spend to many resources to cast it and the SECOND Burning Wish. That is the kicker, out of all of the times I have seen Belcher played I have only seen the card played once, and it didn't have any effect on the game, it was just win more. Now this seems to be the current topic, Pyroclasm or Cave-In and are they useful?

In a full wish board I would run 1 of each, but if you only play one Pyroclasm > Cave-In and here is why, Gaddock Teeg. He shuts the whole deck down if he resolves and Cave-In doesn't remove him. I think either/or has to be run in case you play against a combo mirror and they take a chance to go for Empty or in case you need some help against aggro and you can't storm up enough for Empty the Warrens to matter. People are also talking about Chain Lightning as removal in the SB. Personally I like Firebolt over that card cause in a few instances the flashback will be relevant and lets face it, the only creatures you need to kill are 2 toughness anyway ... Teeg, Meddling Mage, ... etc (neither is going to kill Goyf or Dreadnought thats for sure :) Here is the SB I am playing around with and it has been pretty effective so far:

3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
2x Shattering Spree

Of course I play 4x Cabal Ritual and 4x Dark Ritual in my deck to support this SB and honestly it has not been disappointing. Try it out against Thresh, it is quite effective.

[Michael Keller]

Now this seems to be the current topic, Pyroclasm or Cave-In and are they useful?

See, here's the thing:

They have their uses and they've seen play. The problem is they don't see enough play off a second or third Burning Wish to really do anything but delay the inevitable. You knock off a few creatures and you stay alive. Good luck, because now you've wasted a very critical top-decked win condition to off some creatures (which your opponent should have a better chance playing another threat than you top-decking ANOTHER win condition). They're perfectly fine choices, but I hesitate to advocate a card that sees little to no play in a deck which banks on it's sideboard at times to win, not just stay alive. I like the Thoughtseizes and Goblin Welder theory in the sideboard. They milk Force and they can be a serious threat games two and three as your opponent will almost surely board out creature removal, turning sacrificed jewelry into immediate win conditions.

[BreathWeapon]

When you cast Burning Wish, chances are you have no Goblins in play anyways. You'd have to open with a Warrens itself, build up storm, and then combo out. The you'd have to have a Burning Wish or another Burning Wish to get War Strike. So, wouldn't make sense just to - attack? Getting mana to combo out isn't the issue here. It's what to Wish for and is it the best option for the situation at hand. This card isn't. It says no to only one other card in the format which sees rare to little amount of play. Seriously, though: If you were staring down lethal damage (assuming you've nailed your opponent for, let's say, ten - and they've got a few Goyfs out that are 4/5's and they've wiped your board out with an instantly activated Explosives) and you top-decked a Burning Wish - what would you Wish for?

*Remember: Goblin War Strike isn't so hot when your opponent almost certainly can wipe your board at instant speed. The trick here is to locate a card in your sideboard that can win you the game. That's the problem with the sideboard: Have you noticed all the staples like Diminishing Returns and Infernal Tutor? They win you the game immediately. We need to find cards that can win you the game just as well as they can. Goblin War Strike - albeit one red mana - allows your opponent to go ahead and get an Explosives active because you need to spend at least one turn getting your Goblins in play from a hard-cast or Wished-Warrens. You're better off doing something called attacking - which, in turn, should free up a slot in the sideboard.

Dude, that logic doesn't make any sense to me, since when is attacking with Empty the Warrens and wishing for Goblin Warstrike mutually exclusive? The opponent being able to remove tokens at instant speed is irrelevant, you're suppose to wish for Goblin Warstrike before they resolve Engineered Explosives in the first place.

Goblin Warstrike just turns Burning Wish into a Time Walk for 1RR, the rest of the argument is topical, in a do or die situation the deck has to go for Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony or some other finisher, but that has nothing to do with whether or not Goblin Warstrike should be in the SB. Of course you need either Empty the Warrens or 2 Burning Wishes in hand, but that's the entire point of Goblin Warstrike in the SB, it turns the superflous win condition into a useful card.

[Shawon]

[regarding Manamorphose]Yes, I'll never ever have to use Chromatic Star or Sphere in my Belcher list. Never again.

[sunshine]

I've seen a lot of people reference Gaddock Teeg as a concern when considering sideboard options. I'm not going to argue that he doesn't stop this deck cold, he obviously does, but how often does he actually get played against you? I have to admit all the times that I've brought belcher to a tourney I've never once seen a Gaddock Teeg across the table... or any other table for that matter. This might just be a metagame issue, I'm just curious how much the card actually sees play elsewhere. I've at least looked over all the other forums in DTB and haven't seen a single copy in any of the lists there either. I'm not saying the card shouldn't be kept in mind, just want to know how much of a presence he is.

Also @goblin war stike:
Regardless of whether there are any Kithkin Advisors in your meta, you should almost certainly be prepared for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed as they are likely going to be the most common answer to a Warrens kill (aside from countermagic). Both EE and Deed come online to kill goblin tokens on your opponents third turn, so depending on the number of tokens you made and who won the die roll this likely means you'll lose your goblins when you need only one more attack to win. I honestly can't think of another card that would let you pull out the win here. It is certainly a situational card, but the situation is relevant enough to include one copy in the Sb imo - it is just so important to win before your opponents third turn when they run EE/Deed.

on a side note, if you must run some kind of direct damage finisher aside from Chain Lightning or Cave-in in the board, Demonfire is probably worth considering as you will most likely reach hell bent when ramping up your mana to play it.

[Michael Keller]

Also @goblin war stike:
Regardless of whether there are any Kithkin Advisors in your meta, you should almost certainly be prepared for Engineered Explosives/Pernicious Deed as they are likely going to be the most common answer to a Warrens kill (aside from countermagic). Both EE and Deed come online to kill goblin tokens on your opponents third turn

Second turn. All your opponent needs is two land with no counters on it after dropping it turn one. Demonfire was another consideration of mine.

[sunshine]

right, second turn for EE of course, sorry. But still the same reasoning applies.

[Michael Keller]

right, second turn for EE of course, sorry. But still the same reasoning applies.

Well actually, now it doesn't, because you've given away one full turn for an answer to an opponent. Remember, to expend your resources for a two turn lethal Warrens, you're going to have to cast 5 or 6 spells. You won't have any extra mana to play another Burning Wish then War Strike, because you've given an opponent a full turn to answer. This is, of course, assuming you've hit the $10,000 spot on Plinko three times in a row (meaning you've opened an EXTREME god hand with an EXTREMELY godly top-deck.

[Osse]

The problem with the majority of this disagreement is that you're counting Belcher out once the ETW tokens are gone. Often enough the Belcher player can sit on his Token barrage and build up his hand to go for another win-condition. Like, is there any real problem with just playing draw-go when you're the combo deck?

[Brehn]

Sorry guys, but any list without Goblin War Strike is horribly suboptimal.

I can't count the number of times I've wished for GWS anymore. I've even casted it on turn 1 numerous times. I also can't count the number of times my opponent flipped Explosives / Pyroclasm / whatever after the game and said "Screw your GWS". I also can't count the number of times I've read about this exact scenario in other people's tournament reports. I don't care whether you're successful or not, A Legend. In this case you're just plain wrong.

So let's see what's essential for the WISHboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Goblin War Strike
and probably:
1 Shattering Spree
1 Damage Spell (Chain Lightning, Cave-In, Tendrils of Agony)

One thing I've never understood, what on earth is Infernal Tutor for? I've asked this before in this thread and haven't gotten an answer. It's not a Demonic Tutor, it's a Diabolic Tutor you waste a Burning Wish on. I can't imagine a single scenario where this would be good.

About Dry Spell:

This spell knocks off not only creatures, but it deals damage to an opponent as well. This card hits every creature on the board. What's one damage, you say? Just think about all the relevant creatures in the format. Most of their asses are one.
Don't forget that the original reasoning behind Pyroclasm/Cave-In was Gaddock Teeg/Meddling Mage, which are actually relevant. I can't think of any creature that is relevant to Belcher and has an ass of one.

[yurivish]

Perhaps you can use it, in rare cases, to find and activate a Belcher. I don't know what else.

I've just goldfished this list for about a dozen games, and in most of them I went off with EtW or Belcher no later than turn 2. Manamorphose has proven very useful in hands like SSG, SSG, Seething Song, Land Grant, Dark Ritual, Manamorphose, Burning Wish - this hand allows for 12-14 goblins on turn 1 with the help of transforming the red mana from Seething Song into black for the Dark Ritual.

The loss of the second land did not appear to have affected the consistency of the deck, as far as I can tell, due to the addition of Manamorphose.


4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga

[Michael Keller]

Sorry guys, but any list without Goblin War Strike is horribly suboptimal.

That's utterly ridiculous. There's no diagnostic evidence to support that statement.


I can't count the number of times I've wished for GWS anymore. I've even casted it on turn 1 numerous times.

And I never have, so what's your point? I almost don't believe you because I've goldfished the deck thousands of times and played hundreds of games with it in tournaments and have never once had that happen. You'll have to show your list and explain that because [unfortunately] - that's almost impossible.

[BreathWeapon]

One thing I've never understood, what on earth is Infernal Tutor for? I've asked this before in this thread and haven't gotten an answer. It's not a Demonic Tutor, it's a Diabolic Tutor you waste a Burning Wish on. I can't imagine a single scenario where this would be good.


It's not, it's a vestigial organ from the original list that most people forget to have removed.

[Jaynel]

Perhaps you can use it, in rare cases, to find and activate a Belcher. I don't know what else.

I've just goldfished this list for about a dozen games, and in most of them I went off with EtW or Belcher no later than turn 2. Manamorphose has proven very useful in hands like SSG, SSG, Seething Song, Land Grant, Dark Ritual, Manamorphose, Burning Wish - this hand allows for 12-14 goblins on turn 1 with the help of transforming the red mana from Seething Song into black for the Dark Ritual.

The loss of the second land did not appear to have affected the consistency of the deck, as far as I can tell, due to the addition of Manamorphose.


4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga

That list goldfishes REALLY nicely. Manamorphose is really dirty, and I'm actually surprised about Spoils of the Vault. It's a really cheap tutor - kind of a Burning Wish for your library. In the 8 or so games I goldfished, the most it did was 12 (after which I was able to Belch for the win).

[yurivish]

Yeah, Spoils is a semi-backup plan for me. If I have a hand with a Spoils and a Warrens, I tend to go for goblins rather than risk losing the game outright. In all of my goldfishing, I've only went past more than 19 cards on one occasion.

[b4r0n]

Spoils is interesting idea, but I'm not sure how good it is. Old-school Belcher lists used to run it, but I think it got cut once EtW was printed (since the EtW/Wish/Belcher package provides more consistency and less risk). I don't think Spoils is necessary any more, but I'll mess around with the list. Regardless, Manamorphose looks pretty damn ridiculous for this deck.

[matelml]

One thing I've never understood, what on earth is Infernal Tutor for? I've asked this before in this thread and haven't gotten an answer. It's not a Demonic Tutor, it's a Diabolic Tutor you waste a Burning Wish on. I can't imagine a single scenario where this would be good.


I's purpose is when you have 2 or 4 mana left when you want to Wish->EtW to up the storm by 1-2. Usually it doesn't really matter, but it can be handy if your opponent might outrace you. If you also play ToA and IGG in the Sb you can win with ToA if you have 2 LED's, 4 mana and a Wish. It's not great, but probably at least as useful as Goblin War Strike.

[ratzes]

I have kinda been out of the loop with legacy for a while, but I remembered a lot of hype over street wraith.

With manamorphose almost bringing the deck size down to 56, why not include street wraith to get it down to 52? In addition, both help to get to thresh faster with c rit.

Sorry if this is ignorant talk, but like I said, I have been out of the loop for some time.

[meanee]

Why is it that everyone thinks that manamorphose is crazy in this deck? The only instance in which I reckon this could be okay, was in the three-color build, and that is not the best build (at least not in my opinion).

It is a great mana-fixer, but aside from that, it kinda blows in this deck - it does nothing. I'd rather play street wraith, because even though it doesn't make storm-count, it can be cast always, and it can't be countered...

I really don't think that manamorphose is great in this deck - but maybe a new deck could be made viable with the inclusion of this... Some kind of RG storm deck with hunting pack maybe?

Anyway: PLease explain why manamorphose would be as great as it seems you guys think.

- meanee

[from Cairo]

Why is it that everyone thinks that manamorphose is crazy in this deck? The only instance in which I reckon this could be okay, was in the three-color build, and that is not the best build (at least not in my opinion).

It is a great mana-fixer, but aside from that, it kinda blows in this deck - it does nothing. I'd rather play street wraith, because even though it doesn't make storm-count, it can be cast always, and it can't be countered...

I really don't think that manamorphose is great in this deck - but maybe a new deck could be made viable with the inclusion of this... Some kind of RG storm deck with hunting pack maybe?

Anyway: PLease explain why manamorphose would be as great as it seems you guys think.

- meanee

Whats not great about it?

It's literally free storm count. You invest 2 mana and one card, and you get 2 mana and 1 card. On top of that it fixes mana.

I fail to see how Street Wraith is remotely as good as this card. It has no potential to fix mana, it costs you 2 life, and nets you no storm.

[meanee]

But it does not do anything (neither does street wraith, but it won't make you die to a spell snare).
If you're trying to explode, you can't rely on drawing a relevant card with this. I see that it makes a "free" storm, but the card you draw won't matter a thing, because, when you play this, you're trying to go off anyway, and if you're relying on drawing what you need to kill your opponent with manamorphose, you're in a very bad situation, and you will most likely die.

The only thing I see this card doing, is making a +1 stormcount - anyway, that is the only thing you can RELY on. On some occasions it is clear that it will generate a +2 storm, but it will not matter much, because if you're trying to make the kill with EtW you are most likely not making 16-20 goblins anyway, and so you have to strike twice regardless. That is not very impressive... You could just as well play welding jar...

- meanee

[zefhek]

as i see it the manamorphosis can help to build up a 1-land 3 colour version that does not kill itself that easy like any 1-land 3 colour belcher version before.

its a manafixer that cycles, the free storm is a plus but not the reason for getting your hands on it.

at the spell snare argument i can say that in the r/g version you have desperate ritual in its place, which can be countered by spell snare too and if i can pull a spell snare to move my burning wish more freely i would take that chance too.

[meanee]

Please tell me you wont replace desperate ritual with this! That is a very bad choice!
If your point is, that the normal recent rg-build is also vulnerable to spell snare, I know. My point is, that for a card that does not win you the game, nor makes additional mana, nor does anything else relevant for you while going of, it is not a great plan, that it can be countered by one of the most played counterspells in the format, thus breaking you combochain...

- meanee

[Iranon]

Belcher, unfortunately, needs to run suboptimal cards to get to 60.

Spoils of the Vault is too risky
Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor aren't worth a third colour.
Living Wish, Storm Entity or Tarmogoyf are rather weak as backup plays.
Maindeck Protection is a cheap way out; what we really want is more speed.
Street Wraith, Wild Cantor or Manamorphose are blatant fillers.

[capewestgames]

Should we begin to discuss adding Vexing Shusher to the sideboard of Belcher decks?

I personally am liking the Guttural Response and will probably replace 4 of my blasts with them. The mana flexibility is nice.

Mike

[from Cairo]

Should we begin to discuss adding Vexing Shusher to the sideboard of Belcher decks?

I personally am liking the Guttural Response and will probably replace 4 of my blasts with them. The mana flexibility is nice.

Mike


Guttural Response
{rg}
Instant Uncommon
Counter target blue instant spell.
The mage's fancy spell was no match for the noise the boggarts made attempting to hawk a huge loogie.
Illus. Matt Cavotta #208/301

It only counters blue instants, REBs/Pyroblasts seem much better.

Things like Counterbalance, Meddling Mage, etc, can be countered by the blasts, where Guttural Response really only answers Force of Will and Stifle.

[b4r0n]

as i see it the manamorphosis can help to build up a 1-land 3 colour version that does not kill itself that easy like any 1-land 3 colour belcher version before.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Manamorphose would replace Wild Cantors in a three-color build and perhaps allow for Bayou to be cut.

Also, Guttural Response seems pretty bad. The deck has more access to red mana than green mana anyways, so it's basically as easily castable as REB/Pyroblast but more narrow. In fact, it seems worse than REB/Pyroblast in general unless you're running it in a deck without red.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Belcher, unfortunately, needs to run suboptimal cards to get to 60.

Spoils of the Vault is too risky
Dark Ritual and Infernal Tutor aren't worth a third colour.
Living Wish, Storm Entity or Tarmogoyf are rather weak as backup plays.
Maindeck Protection is a cheap way out; what we really want is more speed.
Street Wraith, Wild Cantor or Manamorphose are blatant fillers.

Street Wraith is awful and should not be run in Belcher, we can argue (yet again) about the 56 card effect but it does not improve consistency and makes things even more vague; especially when you have a hand of 6 acceleration spells and Street Wraith, with Spoils of the Vault that is a turn 1 win.

I am an advocate of playing Spoils of the Vault, personally I think 3x is the right number because you only want to draw/play 1 per game. I think the reason most people don't like Spoils is that when goldfishing the deck no one takes the time to seriously shuffle the deck which does impact Spoils if everything is at the bottom. If you make a conscious effort to pile shuffle the deck after each play it will make a difference.

True, you will kill yourself with the card, nature of the beast. But Spoils does something amazing for Belcher, it lets you play 14-15 win conditions instead of the usual 11 (4x Burning Wish, 4x Belcher, 3x Empty) and helps the deck recover more effeciently from hand destruction. The only other card that can be played in its space is Plunge into Darkness which is inferior due to its casting cost. When Spoils of the Vault is cast you will generally win the turn is is cast. It greatly speeds up the deck and makes it mulligan less; and that (to me) is an even trade off for a random death on occassion. You really don't kill yourself much with Spoils and I strongly suggest you test is out, it is amazing. It also forces you to know every card in your deck because when you cast Spoils you are always thinking to yourself "what do I have in my deck that is still a 4x of and has x effect."

[ratzes]

I thought that somebody might find this interesting. As far as spoils of the vault goes and assuming that you are at 20 life.

If you have 53 cards left in the deck, spoils has a:
(49!*(53-20)!)/(53!*(49-20)!) = 13.97% of killing you searching for a 4 of.

If you have 52, (48!*(52-20)!)/(52!*(48-20)!) = 13.28%
If 51, (47!*(51-20)!)/(51!*(47-20)!) = 12.59%
If 50, (46!*(50-20)!)/(50!*(46-20)!) = 11.90%

I don't think that it is often that you would take more than 10 cards out of your library before you are looking at dipping below 20 life in legacy, whereas spoils is a bad idea anyway unless you are desperate.

[BreathWeapon]

The problem with a probability analysis of Spoils is that it fails to take into consideration that Spoils will increase the win % based on being such an efficient tutor. In the case of Belcher, if you don't win on the first turn, you lose regardless, so you don't care if Spoils kills you or not.

[Michael Keller]

In the case of Belcher, if you don't win on the first turn, you lose regardless, so you don't care if Spoils kills you or not.

That's just not true, and you know that Breath. It's not over until it's over. Sometimes all you need to do is buy a few turns and restock.

[BreathWeapon]

That's just not true, and you know that Breath. It's not over until it's over. Sometimes all you need to do is buy a few turns and restock.

In a metagame full of Counterbalance, it's generally true, winning past turn 2 is the exception to the rule.

[Michael Keller]

If an opponent is going to milk a Force of Will from their opening grip, they're going to need to pitch a blue card along with it. This is all assuming we've comboed out turn one (which we should have). A competent Belcher player will know not to overextend their resources too much and Empty the Warrens for six to eight - rather than eight to twelve. Sometimes holding back a key acceleration card for the price of storm could prove effective in the following turns. Obviously you will have to resort to a top-deck win condition IF they Force, but at least now you have something kept back to help. Depleting your hand is never the answer. You need to make your opponent wonder why you did that. Obviously you should dump your hand on the play, but I tend to go a fraction more reserved game two (assuming I've won game one). I beat Mono-Blue Skies for Christ's sake when my opponent let some acceleration resolve and I Emptied the Warrens for six. He tried to play poker face making me think he had Force, but either way I gave him a four (potentially three turn with Ancient Tomb/Efreet damage) clock. It also helps understanding what the opposing player is playing games two and three and who wins the die roll (which is obviously huge).

Point is: Play conservative, but never too conservative. Go for the win if you think you've got it locked down - drop your hand, seriously. But be careful - if an opponent keeps an opening hand of seven, take a second to think. Counterbalance may make its way into several big Legacy decks, but most of the time it's the supporting cards of both builds that ultimately wins or loses the game. I've battled through it before a couple times to some success and some failure; it just happens. But you cannot assume the game is over just because they drop that combo. There are plenty of outs. It just depends on how much available mana they choose to sit on and what they have on top of their library. This is where Blasts (obviously) come in handy. Sure, they might counter it by putting Sensei's Divining Top on top of their library, but you can buy yourself a turn in the early goings by doing so and potentially dropping some cards that don't necessarily cost one.

[ratzes]

The problem with a probability analysis of Spoils is that it fails to take into consideration that Spoils will increase the win % based on being such an efficient tutor. In the case of Belcher, if you don't win on the first turn, you lose regardless, so you don't care if Spoils kills you or not.
lol, then it wouldn't be a probability analysis of spoils :smile:

Anyway, it's good to know that those percentages apply every time you cast spoils. Sure including spoils may or may not increase the win %, but you are still dealing with a crap shoot either way.

[Michael Keller]

lol, then it wouldn't be a probability analysis of spoils :smile:

Anyway, it's good to know that those percentages apply every time you cast spoils. Sure including spoils may or may not increase the win %, but you are still dealing with a crap shoot either way.

I used to be a big advocate of Spoils. The only problem is: Even without it, you're still putting yourself at risk by depleting your hand to win the game. Spoils puts you at an additional risk of doing monumental, if not lethal, damage to yourself. I'm not saying it's bad because it isn't, but it certainly increases your risk factor of winning a game. Now your opponent will REALLY salivate when you try and cast something and they're sitting on a Force. It's like Diabolic Edict-ing a 19/19 Hatred-ed creature after you've paid the life. It really bites.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I completely agree with what you are saying, but against control you would just name Empty the Warrens and storm it out. I am also really liking how that SB I posted a while ago is working out. IMOP it is a lot better than the Red Blast plan from my experience.

SB:
1x Empty the Warrens
2x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Tombstalker

You side out 4x Burning Wish, 4x LED, and 3x Tinder Wall and you bring in 3x Thoughtseize, 3x Duress, 4x Tombstalker, and 1x Empty the Warrens. So long as you have Spoils in you deck (thus making Empty the Warrens even better) this SB is quite effective. Try it out, it seems like a bad idea I know, but it seems to work. Especially with Manamorphose!

[JohnnyCage]

Perhaps you can use it, in rare cases, to find and activate a Belcher. I don't know what else.

I've just goldfished this list for about a dozen games, and in most of them I went off with EtW or Belcher no later than turn 2. Manamorphose has proven very useful in hands like SSG, SSG, Seething Song, Land Grant, Dark Ritual, Manamorphose, Burning Wish - this hand allows for 12-14 goblins on turn 1 with the help of transforming the red mana from Seething Song into black for the Dark Ritual.

The loss of the second land did not appear to have affected the consistency of the deck, as far as I can tell, due to the addition of Manamorphose.


4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga


Whats your board?

[Happy Gilmore]

Did I miss something? How the hell did belcher become a DTB. It has had just 1 top 8 in the US over the in the last few months. Europe has 5 in the last month! only one per tournament but they had many many more tournaments this month. Is this the same guy or just mass of belcher players?

Sure, you can win with belcher, but why would you play it in a format filled with FoW? How can so many people think its a good choice for that type of metagame?

[Michael Keller]

For starters, not everyone plays Force of Will. Take a look at all the other Decks to Beat - I don't see Force in hardly any of them. And when someone doesn't, that typically favors you. It's just a popular, explosive combo deck. Either your opponent opens with Force - or they don't. It's still arguably the best combo deck in the format.

[laststepdown]

4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Manamorphose
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga

Haha, I run this card for card, only -4 Spoils, +4 Pyroblast. Spoils is probably tier 2 search for the deck in comparison to Infernal Tutor or Plunge. I'm tempted to just run Tarmogoyf in this spot cause it's retard strong.

[Happy Gilmore]

Why has no one been talking about this card?

Manamorphose

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif Instanthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-common.gif

Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Its Amazing in so many ways.

[Sek'Kuar]

Why has no one been talking about this card?

Manamorphose

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/mana1.gifhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/images/smilies/manarg.gif Instanthttp://mtgsalvation.com/images/spoiler/shadowmoor-common.gif

Add two mana in any combination of colors to your mana pool.
Draw a card.

Its Amazing in so many ways.

This man speaks the truth. Belcher benefits greatly from manamorphose.

[BreathWeapon]

Probably because Manamorphose is a given, every one is already running it. If you really want to break Manamorphose, figure out some way to get it to work with Doomsday.

[Michael Keller]

Probably because Manamorphose is a given, every one is already running it. If you really want to break Manamorphose, figure out some way to get it to work with Doomsday.

I won't be running it. It does nothing but replace itself. If your build has mana-correction issues, then you should rethink the foundation to begin with. All this card does is cycle and increase storm count. Besides, I thought everyone else wasn't running black anyways. If you run solid green and red, then why run it?

It's not bad, but seriously it's like Street Wraith 5-8.

[BreathWeapon]

I won't be running it. It does nothing but replace itself. If your build has mana-correction issues, then you should rethink the foundation to begin with. All this card does is cycle and increase storm count. Besides, I thought everyone else wasn't running black anyways. If you run solid green and red, then why run it?

It's not bad, but seriously it's like Street Wraith 5-8.

There's no reason to use Wild Cantor instead of Manamorphose.

You run Manamorphose in R/g because there isn't much else to run, between 8 Blasts, Guttural Response, Goblin Welder, Living Wish, Leyline of the Meek, Serum Powder, Street Wraith and Manamorphose, a card that generates free storm, digs for acceleration and imprints for R/g is going to be a superior choice to at least one of those other options. The color fixing is relevant, because Manamorphose is a non LED source of double colored mana for wish targets, I use it for Burning Wish->Diminishing Returns/Tendrils of Agony and Living Wish->Slither Muse/Minion of the Wastes a lot.

Cycling and increasing storm count for free is also more important than you make it out to be, I've had Manamorphose be the difference between turn 2 and turn 3 wins with Empty the Warrens quite a bit.

You'll probably be the only person not running it, Street Wraith is like Manamorphose 5-8.

[Benie Bederios]

There's no reason to use Wild Cantor instead of Manamorphose.

Last time I checked, Wild Cantor could produce mana. I would play the card in the Street Wraith spot. It helps immensly with cating Diminishing Returns from the SB.

BB

[BreathWeapon]

Last time I checked, Wild Cantor could produce mana. I would play the card in the Street Wraith spot. It helps immensly with cating Diminishing Returns from the SB.

BB

If you pass the turn with Wild Cantor, you may as well concede the game, it's a really god awful play to base a hand around. There's good odds Manamorphose will cycle into mana, and you don't have to bring all of your opponent's 1cc/Daze disruption and creature removal online to do it.

[m03]

There's no reason to use Wild Cantor instead of Manamorphose.


It depends. There are specific instances where one would be benefitial over the other, and they seem to be equally likely to occur, atleast according to my testing.

Take for instance each of these two hands:

1) Elvish Spirit Guide, Manamorphose, Dark Ritual, Chrome Mox, Tinder Wall, Empty the Warrens

2) Land Grant, Wild Cantor, Tinder Wall, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Burning Wish


In both instances, each gives an advantage that the other would not...the first hand allowing combo on the first turn, the second hand allowing combo on the second (assuming I got my math right).


Spoils puts you at an additional risk of doing monumental, if not lethal, damage to yourself.

As for Spoils of the Vault, I think it's absolutely worth running in the BGR version. Out of roughly 70 games worth of testing, It's only lost me the game once, where as it allowed me to win the game many more times.

In the one that I lost, the opponent was running a Stax deck, and I would've lost anway, since I was looking for one more source of mana, and decided to Spoils for Simian Spirit Guide, since I had not yet drawn one. The only source of immediately usable mana ended up being 4 cards deep anyway, and by that time the Stax player would have had Trinisphere and Chalice out on the board at minimum. This was game 2 as well, so he already knew what he was up against.

I guess the key is to know when not to play it. Game 2 against someone running FoW, it's a toss-up as to whether or not you're doing more harm than good by firing it off, so it might be better to save it for a Mox imprint, etc. Unless, of course, you're digging for an EtW.

[Michael Keller]

There's no reason to use Wild Cantor instead of Manamorphose...You'll probably be the only person not running it, Street Wraith is like Manamorphose 5-8.

Street Wraith is a card that is strictly a gamble, and so can be Manamorphose. You're putting yourself at risk by open-handing nothing relevant except a bunch of free cyclers. It's not about thinning your deck. It's about open-handing the appropriate acceleration and win condition. Street Wraith doesn't guarantee you anything, and neither does Spoils of the Vault. Mulligan if you don't like your hand or it's not good enough.

Because both of these cards put your opening hand at risk outside of the already-present threat of Force of Will, I choose not to play them.

[Wallace]

I have been testing with Manamorphose and have found it to be semi useful. I like it because I can now run 1 Taiga and no Bayou but still support Dark Ritual. I will keep testing and keep everyone updated...

[m03]

Street Wraith doesn't guarantee you anything, and neither does Spoils of the Vault. Mulligan if you don't like your hand or it's not good enough.


Spoils of the Vault != Street Wraith.

Wraith draws an unpredictable card. Spoils is a tutor with a 9 out of 10 chance of putting your win condition, or a win condition enabler, directly into your hand, and a 1 in 10 chance of bringing on a loss that you likely would have incurred anyway (after all, your best-at-the-time win condition was deeper in the deck than your life total...would you really have survived long enough to hit an alternate win?).

FoW is what it is....if they have it, they have it. If it was Demonic Tutor instead of Spoils, it would only have a 1/10 better shot at winning you the game, as the result of the tutor would be as likely to be countered, and would take you just as long to ramp back up.

Of course, you have alot more experience in this area than most of the rest of us, and the numbers to prove it, so maybe I'm just completely wrong here.

[Wallace]

Spoils of the Vault != Street Wraith.

Wraith draws an unpredictable card. Spoils is a tutor with a 9 out of 10 chance of putting your win condition, or a win condition enabler, directly into your hand, and a 1 in 10 chance of bringing on a loss that you likely would have incurred anyway (after all, your best-at-the-time win condition was deeper in the deck than your life total...would you really have survived long enough to hit an alternate win?).

FoW is what it is....if they have it, they have it. If it was Demonic Tutor instead of Spoils, it would only have a 1/10 better shot at winning you the game, as the result of the tutor would be as likely to be countered, and would take you just as long to ramp back up.

Of course, you have alot more experience in this area than most of the rest of us, and the numbers to prove it, so maybe I'm just completely wrong here.

The only flaw in your logic is that Spoils costs you a :b: and Street Wraith is free...

[m03]

The only flaw in your logic is that Spoils costs you a :b: and Street Wraith is free...

I don't see how that makes a difference...or is a flaw in my logic, for that matter. They're two completely different cards with completely different uses. I wouldn't run them both in the same deck, for sure. In fact, I wouldn't run Street Wraith at all.

Street Wraith works against your Spoils tutoring power by reducing the number of cards you can dig without dying by 1 (2 lost life and 1 gained card), while giving you almost nothing useful in return....whereas Spoils gives you a win condition.

[Michael Keller]

Well I mean you can run Spoils if you want. All I'm saying is you're putting yourself at risk of losing the game. You need to ask yourself:

Would you feel comfortable taking a deck with Spoils of the Vault into a major tournament setting knowing there's control everywhere? It just makes it harder to handle mentally too because you already have to worry about the control match-up. Spoils can be good at end of turn, that much I'll grant you. But I would never feel comfortable casting it in a big tournament.

I used to play Spoils in Mask-Nought years ago in the old 1.5 and I really liked it. But it makes your deck far too inconsistent to win in today's meta-game. Basically what I'm saying is: Make your opponent beat you. Don't beat yourself.

[GGoober]

I'm not sure if anyone has suggested this, but I think Summoner's Pact may be an inclusion in G/R Belcher. It tutors Elvish Spirit Guide/Tinder Wall for free, adding to a storm count, and allows mana acceleration and deck thinning. However, It's usually used when the combo is almost out, or when we are confident on going out. Just a thought.

I personally think Manamorphose is a strong inclusion. It makes the deck 56 cards, mana fixes for wish targets, and adds to storm count, satisfying all the requirements for Belcher combo to go off.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

...adding to a storm count...I don't think that Pact should be played for their storm value. You'd need to come up with the 2GG on the next turn if you plan to use Empty the Warrens.

[m03]

I don't think that Pact should be played for their storm value. You'd need to come up with the 2GG on the next turn if you plan to use Empty the Warrens.


Agreed. You're more likely to go off with Empty the Warrens than you are with Belcher, due to effectively running 7 copies (3x EtW, 4x Burning Wish). Pacts are bad new in Belcher.

[WiLdFiRe]

What's happening with that program that was going to find the fastest possible belcher list?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I think it is not possible to write a programm for this....

[Mulletus]

I wonder why Darksteel Ignot isn't included. I thought first turn wins were a good thing. Has anyone mentioned this yet?

[Maagler]

I wonder why Darksteel Ignot isn't included. I thought first turn wins were a good thing. Has anyone mentioned this yet?

Darksteel Ingot? This does not help you for a first turn win, you are loosing two mana by casting this. even if you had three permanent mana sources to play this with there are still better options.

[Wallace]

Darksteel Ingot? This does not help you for a first turn win, you are loosing two mana by casting this. even if you had three permanent mana sources to play this with there are still better options.

QFT...what purpose does the Ingot serve?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I assume he meant Serum Powder. Same set, same mana cost, they both tap for a mana.

[Proz0r]

Spoils of the Vault != Street Wraith.

Wraith draws an unpredictable card. Spoils is a tutor with a 9 out of 10 chance of putting your win condition, or a win condition enabler, directly into your hand, and a 1 in 10 chance of bringing on a loss that you likely would have incurred anyway (after all, your best-at-the-time win condition was deeper in the deck than your life total...would you really have survived long enough to hit an alternate win?).


Where is your math to backup the 1 in 10 chance? I'm pretty sure it's more (14 percent with a life total of 20).

[Happy Gilmore]

I wonder why Darksteel Ignot isn't included. I thought first turn wins were a good thing. Has anyone mentioned this yet?

Your not serious are you?

[Proz0r]

Your not serious are you?

He obviously means Serum Powder.

[m03]

Where is your math to backup the 1 in 10 chance? I'm pretty sure it's more (14 percent with a life total of 20).

It's only 14% if cast on turn 1, so that's a 1/7 chance. This number drops with every card drawn.

I figured a 1/10 estimate was a good assumption for an average game where you don't God-hand the first turn (maybe 1 mana shy), and manage to make it to turn 3 before either taking on measurable damage from creatures or outright winning, since the creature drops tend to start around turn 2.

So 1/8 or 1/9 would be a more accurate assumption, now that I think about it.

[sunshine]

It seems like one of the major questions for belcher's main deck is whether or not to include Spoils of the Vault. We have a question of power vs. consistency, spoils offers to streamline the deck and increase its speed but possibly at the cost of a game loss. I think the best way to really analyze this card is to start with a purely statistical analysis and let people take from that what they will.

a page or two back ratzes posted this:

If you have 53 cards left in the deck, spoils has a:
(49!*(53-20)!)/(53!*(49-20)!) = 13.97% of killing you searching for a 4 of.

If you have 52, (48!*(52-20)!)/(52!*(48-20)!) = 13.28%
If 51, (47!*(51-20)!)/(51!*(47-20)!) = 12.59%
If 50, (46!*(50-20)!)/(50!*(46-20)!) = 11.90%

this is all assuming you are at 20 life.

now let's assume you are playing 3 copies of spoils MD which seems to be the general consensus for people who run them. This gives you roughly a 37% chance of drawing one in your opening hand (rounding up a tad).

also suppose the tournament you're playing in will have 5 rounds of swiss and a top 8 - if you make it to the finals the most games you could possibly play is 24, so it is fair to estimate that in about 9 of those games spoils will be in your opening hand.

If you play spoils every game that you draw it, you should lose 1 game because of the card (keep in mind I have been rounding up whenever possible).

In my experience belcher mulls itself into oblivion at least this often - and you must consider that having even one copy of spoils in your deck will reduce the number of times you need to mull.

So, what to take from this? Personally I play two copies of spoils in my list and most tournaments that I take it to will not have 5 rounds of swiss plus a top 8. This analysis is far from exhaustive but I thought it might help to shed some light on the debate.

[Mulletus]

Yeah I think I meant Serum Powder. The one that gives a free mulligan. I would think this lets you run 56 card decks.

Theres also that random card regrowth that might be breakable with mana accell in the new set.