[Deck] Belcher

[Happy Gilmore]

Yeah I think I meant Serum Powder. The one that gives a free mulligan. I would think this lets you run 56 card decks.

Theres also that random card regrowth that might be breakable with mana accell in the new set.

Serum Powder is not the same as running a 56 card deck. It forces you to mulligan if you have it in your hand because it is a completely dead card, cannot produce mana (because of the investment), and it has the disadvantage of completely screwing you over if you end up removing your one Taiga along with your hand when you use the Serum Powder. GR Belcher needs more mana acceleration, not fluf like Serum Powder.

[BreathWeapon]

Serum Powder is not the same as running a 56 card deck. It forces you to mulligan if you have it in your hand because it is a completely dead card, cannot produce mana (because of the investment), and it has the disadvantage of completely screwing you over if you end up removing your one Taiga along with your hand when you use the Serum Powder. GR Belcher needs more mana acceleration, not fluf like Serum Powder.

Unless Monolith is unbanned or you're in the Dark Ritual/Bayou crowd, anything you put in that slot is pretty much fluff any way, so you may as well pick your poison.

[Michael Keller]

I think we had this conversation a few pages back about Serum Powder: It's not great but at the same time I think everyone is pretty much aware it can reset your hand. The only problem is, you're giving up a precious acceleration or win condition for it (same goes for Wraith - you don't know what you're drawing into). It all depends on your style. If you're a more conservative player, chances are you'd prefer to play Serum Powder. If you're not, you obviously wouldn't.

[Nihil Credo]

From what little testing I did, by FAR the BIGGEST problem with Serum Powder is that it tells your opponent that you're playing Belcher, which is absolutely murder when you're on the play in G1 - it tells them to mull for answers. Were it not for that, the effect would probably be worth it.

[Michael Keller]

From what little testing I did, by FAR the BIGGEST problem with Serum Powder is that it tells your opponent that you're playing Belcher, which is absolutely murder when you're on the play in G1 - it tells them to mull for answers. Were it not for that, the effect would probably be worth it.

Belcher should in no way be running Street Wraith or Serum Powder - or Manamorphose. This is not "Bauble Burn" or anything like the sort. These are replacement cards that, while functioning for a subtle purpose, serve no real effect other than thinning your deck out and drawing into something potentially irrelevant. It's all about the opening hand. Does Storm really matter when you can already Empty for twelve? Just take your opening seven and deal with it from there. If you have to mulligan, then do it. But don't sacrifice acceleration (the key to the deck, people) for mana-fixing cards in a deck that packs over thirty percent acceleration already. Remember, there is a difference between acceleration and mana production. Will it help you draw into that Belcher or Wish? Maybe. But ask yourself this:

Are you willing to take that chance playing at Worlds or a 50+ person tournament?

[Willoe]

I just tested a list with 4 street wraith, and I didn't had any mulligan problem. The list I play might be flooded with mana acceleration (I don't have the list right now, since I can't open MWS), but how often does it happen when Street Wraith could be in your opening hand? Say your opening hand consists of:

Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Goblin Charbelcher, Street Wraith and a Burning Wish.

I would definetely keep this hand. If you cycle Street Wraith, you can run into 1*taiga, 4*land grant, 3*lotus petal, 3*rite of flame, 3*desperate ritual, 4*seething song, 4* simian spirit guide, 4* tinder wall, 4* elvish spirit guide or even 3* street wraith. In total, that's 30 (with the street wraith, otherwise it's 30). 30/53*100=56,6% of winning the game now.

This might be a very wierd scenario, as it not directly kills you if you miss. You just go (you know the drill) petal, rite, desp. rit, LED, Burning, resp crack LED grabbing ETW, making twelve gobs.

But consider the situation: Often the cycle with street wraith has a greater chance of winning the game rather than giving the opponent a timewalk. How big does this win-% need to be to keep the opening hand.

I'm testing a lot of combo decks at the moment, and belcher's one of them. I post my list later if you want to see it. It's nothing fancy, but I think it's pretty good.

[b4r0n]

Belcher should in no way be running Street Wraith or Serum Powder - or Manamorphose. This is not "Bauble Burn" or anything like the sort. These are replacement cards that, while functioning for a subtle purpose, serve no real effect other than thinning your deck out and drawing into something potentially irrelevant. It's all about the opening hand. Does Storm really matter when you can already Empty for twelve? Just take your opening seven and deal with it from there. If you have to mulligan, then do it. But don't sacrifice acceleration (the key to the deck, people) for mana-fixing cards in a deck that packs over thirty percent acceleration already. Remember, there is a difference between acceleration and mana production.

I agree that Street Wraith and Serum Powder don't belong in the deck. But how can you claim that Manamorphose has no place when you yourself have had success with Wild Cantor in your list? Manamorphose is not replacing any acceleration; rather, it simply seems like an improvement for that mana-fixing slot. I'm curious as to what your rationale is for thinking otherwise.

[Michael Keller]

Well here's my reckoning behind playing Wild Cantor:

Wild Cantor only costs one to play. You need to be able to use that additional mana for something really important. Like, Desperate Ritual or even Burning Wish. Seriously, though: Why would someone Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual into Manamorphose?

To draw a card, of course. :cool: /sarcasm.

Wild Cantor can swing, it can block, and it costs one - perfect for Dark Ritual. You don't want to accelerate into a Manamorphose, get your two mana back, then draw into X, when you have Y in your hand that wins the game anyways.

I'm going to try and say this slowly so people can understand:

Bel...cher...does...not...need...man...uh...fix...ing. :cool:

[Nihil Credo]

I'm going to try and say this slowly so people can understand:

Bel...cher...does...not...need...man...uh...fix...ing. :cool:
Wild Cantor is what again?

[Michael Keller]

Wild Cantor is a creature that adds one of any color to your mana pool and costs one.

I should have said: Any other predominant mana-fixers. Apologies.

[Nightmare]

Wild Cantor also:

~ Stores mana, in case the need to, you know, activate a Belcher arises and it isn't turn 1.
~ Removes Bridge from Below from the game.
~ Blocks Goblin Lackey
~ Swings for 1
~ Costs a single mana
~ Sucks.

Seriously, if we're comparing "Shitty card in Belcher A" to "Shitty card in Belcher B," that's fine, but remember you're debating over what card sucks less.

[Michael Keller]

Wild Cantor also:

~ Stores mana, in case the need to, you know, activate a Belcher arises and it isn't turn 1.
~ Removes Bridge from Below from the game.
~ Blocks Goblin Lackey
~ Swings for 1
~ Costs a single mana
~ Sucks.

Seriously, if we're comparing "Shitty card in Belcher A" to "Shitty card in Belcher B," that's fine, but remember you're debating over what card sucks less.

Sigh of relief.

[m03]

Why would someone Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual into Manamorphose?

To draw a card, of course. :cool: /sarcasm.


So they can cast Tinder Wall and Dark Ritual afterwards, of course.

Or heck, maybe even two Tinder Walls, if you had that kind of hand.

The draw almost always gives you either mana acceleration or something that can be imprinted on Chrome Mox. Not that I would count on the draw doing anything useful, but it's better than nothing.

A better question would be, if Manamorphose didn't cantrip, would it still be considered as a replacement for Wild Cantor?

[Michael Keller]

It doesn't really matter. Personally, I've had a tremendous amount of success with the deck and Cantor and I am not about to cut him out until I see a feasible reason to.

[Nightmare]

So they can cast Tinder Wall and Dark Ritual afterwards, of course.

Or heck, maybe even two Tinder Walls, if you had that kind of hand.

The draw almost always gives you either mana acceleration or something that can be imprinted on Chrome Mox. Not that I would count on the draw doing anything useful, but it's better than nothing.

A better question would be, if Manamorphose didn't cantrip, would it still be considered as a replacement for Wild Cantor?What mana sources are you running that can cast Rite of Flame, but not Tinder Wall? I mean, there's Chrome Mox, but that's like, the least reliable mana source you have.

[Jaynel]

Seriously, though: Why would someone Rite of Flame or Desperate Ritual into Manamorphose?

To draw a card, of course. :cool: /sarcasm.


Plus one to Storm, of course. And the potential of drawing into another mana source, free or otherwise, that nets you ANOTHER spell for Storm.

Wild Cantor is, in my experience, the absolute weakest card in the deck and I've been looking to replace him forever. Manamorphose is the best candidate for the job.

"Storing mana" seems like a pretty weak excuse. In order for this to be viable, either you drew the lone Taiga in the deck, flashed your hand to fetch it out with Land Grant, or used Chrome Mox mana to cast Wild Cantor and then passed the turn. To me, those hands need to be tossed back.

[m03]

What mana sources are you running that can cast Rite of Flame, but not Tinder Wall? I mean, there's Chrome Mox, but that's like, the least reliable mana source you have.


Fair enough. I didn't think my logic through on the first example. The second is valid, albeit less likely to occur. Though, it's happened quite a few times during testing.

[sunshine]

Worst case scenario for a belcher player (next to mulling into oblivion) is when you open with an amazing draw only to get stifled/orim’s chanted/whatevered after you blow most or all of your acceleration ramping up to go for a kill. This is where manamorphose has a critical advantage over wild cantor. The important thing is that manamorphose is potentially +2 storm count as opposed to +1 from cantor. In other words, you can often hold more cards back when using manamorphose because you reach critical storm more quickly (even if you only get to hold one extra card back it is still significant) – which just makes it easier to recover from a foiled first attempt.

I'm not trying to say that manamorphose is strictly better than wild cantor in this deck, just that it is definatley worth testing for the spot.

[Michael Keller]

Plus one to Storm, of course. And the potential of drawing into another mana source, free or otherwise, that nets you ANOTHER spell for Storm.

Wild Cantor is, in my experience, the absolute weakest card in the deck and I've been looking to replace him forever. Manamorphose is the best candidate for the job.

"Storing mana" seems like a pretty weak excuse. In order for this to be viable, either you drew the lone Taiga in the deck, flashed your hand to fetch it out with Land Grant, or used Chrome Mox mana to cast Wild Cantor and then passed the turn. To me, those hands need to be tossed back.

I'm just wondering: Why would someone cast Manamorphose and keep a hand without a win condition in it already...? Is the replacement draw really that essential when all you need to do is end up somehow having X+2 red mana at most? All you need is one red for hard-casting Warrens or having two red mana to Wish for it and then to cast the side-board Warrens. I mean, if you want to play Manamorphose you can, but for all intents and purposes it's up to the player and it really makes no difference. Is there really a difference between twelve and fourteen tokens when your opponent is on a two-turn clock anyways? In fact, all you're really doing is burning more cards so your opponent can Explosives away everything you made. At least (and I use that term loosely) Cantor can stay in play if that's the situation.

[Nightmare]

"Storing mana" seems like a pretty weak excuse. In order for this to be viable, either you drew the lone Taiga in the deck, flashed your hand to fetch it out with Land Grant, or used Chrome Mox mana to cast Wild Cantor and then passed the turn. To me, those hands need to be tossed back.OR, and stick with me here, cause I know you guys can do it - Your opponent didn't let you goldfish all over their face, and you're rebuilding to like, activate Belcher or something. Who knew? I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Belcher player sit with a land, an untapped Belcher, and a Spirit Guide in hand. Let's say your next draw is either Cantor or Manamorphose. You either cantrip, losing your second mana source in the process and hoping for another mana source off the top, or you play a Cantor, invest literally nothing but a card into it and have the mana to activate Belcher next turn.

[Jaynel]

Is there really a difference between twelve and fourteen tokens when your opponent is on a two-turn clock anyways?

Oh, absolutely. We have chump blockers in this format and shenanigans like Pyrokenesis. A two-turn clock of 10 green men can turn into a 3 or 4 turn clock if you run into enemy dudes. 14 or 16 critters is much harder to stop from overrunning towards the dome.

[Michael Keller]

No one really plays Pyrokinesis anymore. And if they decide to burn a red card in addition to the Pyrokinesis AND...let's say they drop a 1/1...You're still looking at 9-10 damage and a two turn clock if you Warrens for 14. Pyrokinesis would be placed in a deck that runs primarily red cards, which you destroy. There are no such thing as chump-blockers against Belcher. You're being overrun by a horde of ankle-biting Goblins and it will happen turn one, two at the latest and they'd have to have a legitimate turn-one creature drop that matters, which it doesn't. Even Lackey doesn't matter if you hold back a dude or two and get in there (assuming you're referring to the definitive turn-one drop). I did this in Hadley, and it worked to perfection. Even if your opponent buys themselves one more turn, they dropped a turn-one man so that means they're obviously playing an aggro variant (at least). That spells trouble when they're staring down twelve to fourteen Goblins compared to their one.

Those dudes are red, btw.

[sunshine]

If I could clear something up: I don't think anyone was ever suggesting that manamorphose allows you to keep hands w/o a win condition.

Also, there are situations when it is not correct to just dump your hand on the table and go for 12-14 goblin tokens - especially when you know your opponent can deal with them (read: in belchers bad matchups). The issue of Manamorphose vs. Wild Cantor is somewhat irrelevant against aggro. If you are in a situation where you want to have resources left over after casting ETW Manamorphose can let you do this and have more cards in hand afterwards than Wild Cantor would.


Your opponent didn't let you goldfish all over their face, and you're rebuilding to like, activate Belcher or something. Who knew? I can't tell you how many times I've seen a Belcher player sit with a land, an untapped Belcher, and a Spirit Guide in hand. Let's say your next draw is either Cantor or Manamorphose. You either cantrip, losing your second mana source in the process and hoping for another mana source off the top, or you play a Cantor, invest literally nothing but a card into it and have the mana to activate Belcher next turn.

and this is the obvious argument for wild cantor, probably every belcher players has been in this exact situation: able to make 2 mana with an untapped Belcher in play.

[Michael Keller]

It all depends on what you're playing against. I played against mono-blue control in the finals of a recent large tournament and I would have just Emptied the Warrens for like six if I had it in my opening grip. It's about match-ups and knowing how much to Empty for.

It would also be especially painful if someone countered Manamorphose over Cantor because, assuming you have RR floating (off Tinder Wall, Rite of Flame, etc.), casting Cantor with one R left, you at least can cast something beyond the fact. It's like a larger valve to channel your mana through to fix it: The larger the investment the harder the fall.

[Nightmare]

It would also be especially painful if someone countered Manamorphose over Cantor because, assuming you have RR floating (off Tinder Wall, Rite of Flame, etc.), casting Cantor with one R left, you at least can cast something beyond the fact. It's like a larger valve to channel your mana through to fix it: The larger the investment the harder the fall.This is another reason I hated running Seething Song in Belcher. Manamorphose is yet another spell that screams "If you counter me, I fizzle."

[Michael Keller]

This is another reason I hated running Seething Song in Belcher. Manamorphose is yet another spell that screams "If you counter me, I fizzle."

My point exactly. That's why Dark Ritual is so good in this deck and so few people play it anymore; It's cheap acceleration and it can make your opponent scratch their head whether or not to counter it. Plus, it helps when your opponent casts Ill Gotten Gains and you have a Bayou untapped with a Belcher sitting there collecting dust. :cool:

Yeah the control player with Force in hand does lick their chops at the hopes of seeing Seething Song. If I play against control, I'll Warrens for like six and I'm fine with it (assuming I have it in the opening grip). Fetch-lands help the cause too.

[sunshine]

I'm not disagreeing with either of you, but 100% of the time I would rather get a manamorphose countered rather than the spell I was going to play after it.

[Michael Keller]

Which is why you play the cheaper, more efficient solution.

Simply put:

If you go fishing regularly (that's right, I said fishing), you can become a master with this deck.

[m03]

It would also be especially painful if someone countered Manamorphose over Cantor because, assuming you have RR floating (off Tinder Wall, Rite of Flame, etc.), casting Cantor with one R left, you at least can cast something beyond the fact. It's like a larger valve to channel your mana through to fix it: The larger the investment the harder the fall.

So they piss away a counter on Manamorphose rather than either the better/more necessary acceleration or the Belcher or the Wish that you still have in hand?

Yay.

If they're got counters, this seems almost preferrable.

Edit: Looks like this was covered while I was still typing the above. Nevermind.

[Nightmare]

So they piss away a counter on Manamorphose rather than either the better/more necessary acceleration or the Belcher or the Wish that you still have in hand?

Yay.

If they're got counters, this seems almost preferrable.Oh, does Belcher normally have two extra mana and a card in hand that it can piss away baiting counterspells now? This is news to me. Here I was thinking it was pretty tight on mana most of the time.

[MTL10]

so, just out of curiosity, what exactly does "cret" in CRET belcher stand for.. does it have something to do with the ETW in the deck? or is it like named after its cteator or what... i'm baffled by what cret could stand for, i've tried to go over many, many accronymns in my head and can't seem to find one that makes sense

[Nightmare]

so, just out of curiosity, what exactly does "cret" in CRET belcher stand for.. does it have something to do with the ETW in the deck? or is it like named after its cteator or what... i'm baffled by what cret could stand for, i've tried to go over many, many accronymns in my head and can't seem to find one that makes senseIt's the name of the team that built the original "Good" list.

[m03]

Oh, does Belcher normally have two extra mana and a card in hand that it can piss away baiting counterspells now? This is news to me. Here I was thinking it was pretty tight on mana most of the time.

Which would you rather have countered, if it's going to happen anyway?

Which would you rather counter, if you were the opponent?

I'm working under the assumption that you would cast it early (like Taiga -> Tinder Wall -> Manamorphose), rather than late in the chain (off of Seething Song, etc. as the last spell before Belcher, EtW, Wish).

Casting it late in the chain IS risky and potentially foolish.

[MTL10]

It's the name of the team that built the original "Good" list.

does "cret" stand for anything? or is that actually the name of the team... if so, what a weak name lol.. CRET! ooooh intimidating haha

[m03]

does "cret" stand for anything? or is that actually the name of the team... if so, what a weak name lol.. CRET! ooooh intimidating haha


Charles' Rear Entry, according to Google.

[Nightmare]

Which would you rather have countered, if it's going to happen anyway?

Which would you rather counter, if you were the opponent?I'm only answering the second part, deal with it. I don't care which one I counter, as long as it stops you from going off that turn. Your deck tends to beat itself fairly frequently when facing disruption, so the more chances I get to pull said disruption off the top of my library, the better.

[b4r0n]

This is another reason I hated running Seething Song in Belcher. Manamorphose is yet another spell that screams "If you counter me, I fizzle."
So if someone goes SSG, Rite of Flame, Manamorphose, you're going to counter that? Doesn't it seem wiser to counter whatever they channel the mana into?


Oh, does Belcher normally have two extra mana and a card in hand that it can piss away baiting counterspells now? This is news to me. Here I was thinking it was pretty tight on mana most of the time.
No, but it's pretty easier to draw into more acceleration, especially if you've only spent a card or two to get the point of playing Manamorphose. Countering a Manamorphose doesn't seem like it'll accomplish very much, especially if it's early on in the chain of accelerants.

[m03]

I'm only answering the second part, deal with it.

Nice attitude.

I changed my post above to clarify my point (prior to your post...but you must have hit reply before seeing it), however invalid it may be.

[Nightmare]

So if someone goes SSG, Rite of Flame, Manamorphose, you're going to counter that? Doesn't it seem wiser to counter whatever they channel the mana into?Generally speaking, 2 mana from Belcher isn't scary. 4 mana is scary. Let's say you go Land, Petal, Rite, SSG, Manamorphose. I counter it all day long. There are ways to play around Force of Will with this deck, obviously. My point is, in what situation - when you can't already win without Manamorphose, and you can't do exactly the same thing with Cantor for less mana invested - is Manamorphose going to win you the game where Cantor would lose it?

[b4r0n]

My point is, in what situation - when you can't already win without Manamorphose, and you can't do exactly the same thing with Cantor for less mana invested - is Manamorphose going to win you the game where Cantor would lose it?

That's a very good point. There are definitely a few (double Tinder Wall comes to mind), and the potential for extra storm can be relevant. But the more I think about it, the more it seems that you're right.

That's a much clearer way of looking at the issue than how A Legend was arguing against it.

[Nightmare]

(double Tinder Wall comes to mind)
In the event that you have:

Tinder Wall
Tinder Wall
Rite of Flame
Manamorphose/Cantor
Chrome Mox
Red Card to Pitch
Win Con(Let's assume your win con is EtW)

You're saying that with Manamorphose, you win, and with Cantor, you lose. I'm saying, you're looking at about the ONLY scenario where that happens. Darn, one more mulligan on the day. I'm not particluarly bent out of shape on the matter, especially since your opponent probably does counter it if you're 4 cards into a 7 card hand and you're dropping to zero mana in the pool.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

In order for that to happen, the control player would have to let SSG go through uncountered. That seems highly unlikely.SSG stands for Simian Spirit Guide right? The mana ability of Guide can't be countered, not even by Stifle.

[Nightmare]

In order for that to happen, the control player would have to let SSG go through uncountered. That seems highly unlikely.

Anyway, Manamorphose shouldn't be cast at the end of the chain. A better play would be Land, Rite, MM, Petal, SSG -or- Land, Petal, MM, Rite, SSG.

Either way, SSG is probably getting countered, but now you have an extra card in hand to help with the recovery.

Of course, in this situation, if they decided to counter MM, that would be even better.



Depends on the decklist.
A) You can't counter Simian Spirit Guide.
B) Decklist is irrelevant. I don't care what your list looks like, I'm happily anticipating examples. This isn't theory world right now, I'm looking for real world scenarios where, without considering interruptions from opponent, Manamorphose is a superior choice - in a significant way - than Wild Cantor.

So far, someone has suggested a single example. That isn't even close to enough to overcome the versatility that Cantor provides. Can you add to the list?

[m03]

SSG stands for Simian Spirit Guide right? The mana ability of Guide can't be countered, not even by Stifle.


You can't counter Simian Spirit Guide.

Total brainfart, for some reason I was thinking SSG == Seething Song.

What's funnier is I thought about it atleast a couple of times before posting..."wait, do they mean Seething Song...why would you chain Manamorphose off of Seething Song?"

[syssc9]

Wow! This thread has increased a whole page and quarter since I started writing this in spare moments today while trying to also do my day-job. It may be hopelessly obsolete now, but I'm posting anyway, deal with it! ;-)

I keep reading that playing with 4 Street Wraith is like playing with a 56 card deck. Well, yeah, sorta - but only sorta. Same is sorta true for Manamorphose, although less so, but still somewhat. Ambiguous enough? Everyone who says they are merely filler is somewhat correct. Both fish for new/additional cards. Neither card ever enters into my decision on whether or not to Mulligan. Either I have a Kill in hand and enough mana to make it work, or I do not and ship it back. OK, once in a very great while, if I have the kill but am short a single mana (and it's 3rd and long) I will take the chance offered by these cards - bid 'em up or sleep in the street! But I never draw to an inside straight. They can make a good thing better, but you better not try to use them to make a bad thing good. The odds are just too long.

Now I'll put my money - and maybe my foot - where my my mouth is. I am running 4 of both in a strictly GR deck, one Taiga, no Bayou, Dark Ritual or Cantor. I think I am trying to do the same thing as everyone else, i.e., maximize the first turn combo percentage. For me it's either 1st turn combo, or I mulligan. Right? Or am I asking too much? I don't think so with this deck.

Another possibility that remains to be explored (you know, just another couple hundred goldfishes...) might be a build with both Cantor and Manamorphose and try returning Dark Ritual to the build, but without the Bayou. I guess I would even consider pulling the Tinder Walls for the Dark Rit's. The Rituals and Bayou left my build originally for the same reason as most of the rest of you - increased overall consistency and less Belcher mis-fires. With the need for Green removed along with the Tinder Walls (I always use the alternate casting cost for Land Grant) perhaps the +2 of the Ritual could be made to work and even maintain consistency. I dunno. Gotta go goldfish. My wife's gonna divorce me if I don't talk to her sometime this week...

[Happy Gilmore]

A) You can't counter Simian Spirit Guide.
B) Decklist is irrelevant. I don't care what your list looks like, I'm happily anticipating examples. This isn't theory world right now, I'm looking for real world scenarios where, without considering interruptions from opponent, Manamorphose is a superior choice - in a significant way - than Wild Cantor.

So far, someone has suggested a single example. That isn't even close to enough to overcome the versatility that Cantor provides. Can you add to the list?

Are you actually trying to argue that Wild Cantor should be included over Metamorphose?

Careful Nightmare, I thought you were arguing for Cantor of a moment there.


Cantor, versatile? It swings...I'll give you that.

[BreathWeapon]

Either is sufficient, Wild Cantor is superior to Manamorphose in top decking situations while Manamorphose is superior to Wild Cantor in gold fishing situations. In testing, Manamorphose has been the difference between 8 and 10 goblins or pass/untap and activate Belcher enough for me to prefer it over Wild Cantor, while the double colored UU/BB supports Diminishing Returns, Tendrils of Agony or whatever Timmy targets are in my Living Wish SB.

From what I've seen, CRET Belcher could/should run both Wild Cantor and Manamorphose in order to cut Seething Song and make Dark Ritual a more consistent accelerant.

Edit:

@Nightmare, Manamorphose does have a lot of in game uses Wild Cantor doesn't, you get hands where Manamorphose lets you bypass a low storm count Empty the Warrens for Diminishing Returns against aggro, or you get hands where Manamorphose lets you bypass Empty the Warrens for Tendrils of Agony after a Diminishing Returns/Slithermuse.

It's not a decisive advantage, but oppening up decision trees never hurts.

[Michael Keller]

rom what I've seen, CRET Belcher could/should run both Wild Cantor and Manamorphose in order to cut Seething Song and make Dark Ritual a more consistent accelerant.


I agree, almost. Seething Song is a key element in Belcher. Keep it the way it is. That's why the deck is in this forum. Changing it is really unnecessary considering it is winning.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree, almost. Seething Song is a key element in Belcher. Keep it the way it is. That's why the deck is in this forum. Changing it is really unnecessary considering it is winning.

Seething Song is one of the worst, if not the worst, cards in the deck in actual Belcher vs Blue match ups. As good as it is in goldfishing, it's such an obvious Force of Will and Daze target that cutting it for a more consistent Dark Ritual is arguable.

Belcher doesn't need major changes since it's the most binary deck in the format, but there's still room for preferences. I've seen/played some wildly unorthodox and effective variants, like 8 Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon in the MD etc.

[Michael Keller]

Seething Song is one of the worst, if not the worst, cards in the deck in actual Belcher vs Blue match ups. As good as it is in goldfishing, it's such an obvious Force of Will and Daze target that cutting it for a more consistent Dark Ritual is arguable.

So what you're saying is Seething Song is so good it deserves to be cut from the deck because it can be countered, basically. That makes no sense when you consider the entire deck is acceleration and to cut one of the best accelerators in the deck seems outlandish. If something is going to be Dazed or Forced, there's not much you can do anyway, so you might as well go for it (like you should).

[BreathWeapon]

So what you're saying is Seething Song is so good it deserves to be cut from the deck because it can be countered, basically. That makes no sense when you consider the entire deck is acceleration and to cut one of the best accelerators in the deck seems outlandish. If something is going to be Dazed or Forced, there's not much you can do anyway, so you might as well go for it (like you should).

No, it's not a question of being counterable, it's a question of a 3cc accelerant being at the exact point where a counter does the most damage. Assuming the opponent is competent, he's going to use his Force of Will to prevent Belcher from achieving 4 mana instead of waiting to see whether or not the win condition is Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens. Depending on what acceleration you have, and how you play your acceleration, you can end up keeping more cards in hand after a counter if you have lower CC acceleration compared to higher CC acceleration.

It's too complicated to explain in detail, and I'm tired, but the deal is Seething Song just screams "counter me" the moment you play the card. If there was another 2 for 3 ritual in R or G, I'd cut Seething Song for it, the 8 ??? slots withstanding.

[Wallace]

No, it's not a question of being counterable, it's a question of a 3cc accelerant being at the exact point where a counter does the most damage. Assuming the opponent is competent, he's going to use his Force of Will to prevent Belcher from achieving 4 mana instead of waiting to see whether or not the win condition is Goblin Charbelcher, Burning Wish or Empty the Warrens. Depending on what acceleration you have, and how you play your acceleration, you can end up keeping more cards in hand after a counter if you have lower CC acceleration compared to higher CC acceleration.

It's too complicated to explain in detail, and I'm tired, but the deal is Seething Song just screams "counter me" the moment you play the card. If there was another 2 for 3 ritual in R or G, I'd cut Seething Song for it, the 8 ??? slots withstanding.


...If something is going to be Dazed or Forced, there's not much you can do anyway, so you might as well go for it. (like you should).

[Nightmare]

Yeah, that would be all well and good, if it were true.

There is something you can do about it. Namely, you can mitigate the amount of harm the counterspell or daze will do to you, in terms of cards invested, mana invested, and recoverability. There's a reason you don't blow rituals into 7 mana before you drop the Belcher if you can avoid it. By running a rit effect like Seething Song, which costs basically one or more spells to ramp up to it on top of the spell itself, you're forcing an all-in situation every time you choose to play that spell. If it were a similar, but cheaper option (say, Dark Ritual), you could achieve the same net mana for less investment, which allows you to keep more cards in hand, should your gameplan be foiled. This means you have a better chance at rebuilding resources and trying again.

[m03]

Generally speaking, 2 mana from Belcher isn't scary. 4 mana is scary. Let's say you go Land, Petal, Rite, SSG, Manamorphose. I counter it all day long.

Ok, now that I've got this straight (from thinking you meant Seething Song before), let's address it.

You wouldn't make that play because it's a bad play. You're intentionally giving the opponent too much information by pitching Spirit Guide before casting Manamorphose. A better play would have been Land, Petal, Rite, Manamorphose (or Land, Rite, Manamorphose, Petal), and hold Spirit Guide until after MM resolves.

Given this play, would the opponent still counter MM? What does he think is in your hand after that play?

I actually lean towards keeping Cantor still, but arguing these points is mildly educational.

[Nightmare]

Ok, now that I've got this straight (from thinking you meant Seething Song before), let's address it.

You wouldn't make that play because it's a bad play. You're intentionally giving the opponent too much information by pitching Spirit Guide before casting Manamorphose. A better play would have been Land, Petal, Rite, Manamorphose (or Land, Rite, Manamorphose, Petal), and hold Spirit Guide until after MM resolves.

Given this play, would the opponent still counter MM? What does he think is in your hand after that play?

I actually lean towards keeping Cantor still, but arguing these points is mildly educational.I agree, it's a terrible play. At the same time, doing it the better way still nets you nothing but a cantrip. That's probably fine though, since a Cantor in that slot nets you nothing.

By the way, I agree, this discussion is rather entertaining. Moreso than any other actual Magic discussion I've had lately, anyway.

[Nightmare]

As an aside, I'm about 99% sure that this should be considered the new "Standard" build:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Manamorphose
4 Wild Cantor

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desparate Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
3/4 Chrome Mox
1/2 Taiga

[BreathWeapon]

Can you consistently support Dark Ritual with out Bayou? As much as failed Belcher activations suck, not being able to cast Belcher in the first place with a dead Dark Ritual would be a lot worse.

[Nightmare]

Can you consistently support Dark Ritual with out Bayou? As much as failed Belcher activations suck, not being able to cast Belcher in the first place with a dead Dark Ritual would be a lot worse.
I suppose if the issue arises you could include the Bayou, but it would surprise me, since you have 8 mana fixers plus Lotus Petal to add a single black mana. You're effectively removing 5 Black sources (4 Land Grant + Bayou) and adding 4 (Manamorphose).

[Michael Keller]

Are you actually trying to argue that Wild Cantor should be included over Metamorphose?

Careful Nightmare, I thought you were arguing for Cantor of a moment there.


Cantor, versatile? It swings...I'll give you that.

Cantor is better than Manamorphose. It's cheaper to play and it sacrifices to Dark Ritual. Simple. Playing a two casting-cost valve that replaces itself does nothing but increase storm. And it's like I said, if you already have a win-con in your hand, then all you're doing is risking emptying acceleration into a mana-converter and having it get countered. Better than having the win-con countered? Mmm depends. I mean if you're trying to win the game, then I suppose that it is a bad idea. /sarcasm.

And I don't agree with cutting Bayou in this deck, ONLY if you run black. If you do and your acceleration gets countered, having the available "real" mana is too important to pass by. It is soooo nice just tapping a Bayou and Taiga to play Burning Wish sometimes. It throws your opponent off big time because you're not dumping acceleration to play it. And now you have the capability to (potentially) cast Infernal Tutor off all that acceleration in your hand.

Yum.

[Seregrauko]

I've been following this thread for awhile now.
Never played a combo-deck, and I'm planning to make Belcher my first.

I'd like to play the black version since I love the +2 mana from Dark Rit and I've decided to give Spoils of the Vault a try.
-It can generate stormcount + mana or tutor up a wincon.
Furthermore the new edition brought Manamorphose, which I think is a great card for the deck!

With the deck still packing Burning Wish I've got 4 Belcher + 3 EtW + 4 Wish + 3 Spoils = 14 cards that functions as wincons or tutor 'em up. I like that number..

I'm trying to figure out the whole Taiga + Bayou thing. I can't imagine this deck benefitting from having a non-mountain land in it. Or running 2 lands at all.

My concerns are therefore:

Can I consistently generate the black mana for D. Rit / Spoils (Tendrils from the board?)
-Yes, I think I can. But is it possible without the inclusion of Wild Cantor?

Do I loose too much mana accel by running both Wish and Spoils? (though spoils can net a D. Rit / Seething Song / LED to get + on the mana account)

What's the reason for running Desperate Rit over Cabal Rit? -Can't we generate sufficient red mana allready?
I realize this deck doesn't hit threshold all that easy, but it certainly doesn't splice onto arcane either!

Maybe you could keep Desperate Rit and then substitute the lone Taiga with a Bayou? (With SSG we should have plenty or red sources) Or is this way to risky for the games where you have to activate Belcher without having played a Land or Land Grant?

I guess those are my initial thoughts. Any comments on 'em??

Thanks!

[Happy Gilmore]

I've been following this thread for awhile now.
Never played a combo-deck, and I'm planning to make Belcher my first.

I'd like to play the black version since I love the +2 mana from Dark Rit and I've decided to give Spoils of the Vault a try.
-It can generate stormcount + mana or tutor up a wincon.
Furthermore the new edition brought Manamorphose, which I think is a great card for the deck!

With the deck still packing Burning Wish I've got 4 Belcher + 3 EtW + 4 Wish + 3 Spoils = 14 cards that functions as wincons or tutor 'em up. I like that number..

I'm trying to figure out the whole Taiga + Bayou thing. I can't imagine this deck benefitting from having a non-mountain land in it. Or running 2 lands at all.

My concerns are therefore:

Can I consistently generate the black mana for D. Rit / Spoils (Tendrils from the board?)
-Yes, I think I can. But is it possible without the inclusion of Wild Cantor?

Do I loose too much mana accel by running both Wish and Spoils? (though spoils can net a D. Rit / Seething Song / LED to get + on the mana account)

What's the reason for running Desperate Rit over Cabal Rit? -Can't we generate sufficient red mana allready?
I realize this deck doesn't hit threshold all that easy, but it certainly doesn't splice onto arcane either!

Maybe you could keep Desperate Rit and then substitute the lone Taiga with a Bayou? (With SSG we should have plenty or red sources) Or is this way to risky for the games where you have to activate Belcher without having played a Land or Land Grant?

I guess those are my initial thoughts. Any comments on 'em??

Thanks!

The real issue is needing a red source to pay for 7 of the win conditions, And metamorphose can only be played with Red or Green.

[Seregrauko]

You're completely right about that.. I guess I could have figured that out by looking at the numbers. Thanks for clarifying though!

Anyway, how about the Cantors? I think it looks like their mandatory in the 3-color built. Am I wrong?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Seregrauko, with Manamorphose now legal this would be IMOP the optimal version of Belcher to play with Spoils in it:

4x Belcher
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Spoils of the Vault

4x Chrome Mox
4x Rite of Flame
4x Manamorphose
4x Dark Ritual
4x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Seething Song
2x Cabal Ritual
3x Desperate Ritual
1x Taiga

Before Manamorphose I played 4x Cabal Ritual and rarely encountered any type of mana issues, I think a 3/2 split of Desperate and Cabal Ritual will be the correct call but I would play 3x Cabal Ritual and 2x Desperate Ritual because of the SB I run. As far as the Sideboard goes these cards HAVE to be in there:

1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence

And the rest is up to you on how you want to play the deck. I hate the Red Blast plan, I have never found it satisfactory against Thresh-type decks so I play the following SB:
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Reverent Silence
1x Shattering Spree
1x Pyroclasm
1x Diminishing Returns (I hate this card but it is necessary)
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
4x Tombstalker

This is not a typical SB for this deck but it has been a lot better than the blast plan for me. I am not advocating playing this SB at all, I am simply saying try the blast plan against control and try this SB and see which you prefer.

[sunshine]

running a single living wish in the sb along with tombstalker and storm entity could be an interesting option.

buring wish -> living wish -> tombstalker/storm entity

and notice that this chain alone makes storm entity a 3/3, so it's not unreasonable to drop a 7/7 haste guy on turn 1. Of course ETW is superior in the majority of cases, but there are decks that will have a tougher time dealing with one 7/7 than a horde of 1/1s. Tombstalker is probably a more interesting option here. A turn one stalker is often going to be much scarier to decks like (non-white) threshold than a bunch of goblin tokens that die to explosives.

[Seregrauko]

Thanks, Pulp! I'll look into it. -Your list looks alot like the one I plan to play. Though nothing is certain yet ;)

I just ordered the last cards I need..


running a single living wish in the sb along with tombstalker and storm entity could be an interesting option.

burning wish -> living wish -> tombstalker/storm entity

That looks rather interesting I think. Has anybody tried this out? I'm not sure whether or not this is the way to go game one. I think I'd go for EtW as Wish-target then. But maybe game 2/3?

[m03]

Seregrauko, with Manamorphose now legal this would be IMOP the optimal version of Belcher to play with Spoils in it:

4x Belcher
4x Burning Wish
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Spoils of the Vault

4x Chrome Mox
4x Rite of Flame
4x Manamorphose
4x Dark Ritual
4x Land Grant
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Seething Song
2x Cabal Ritual
3x Desperate Ritual
1x Taiga


Why Cabal Ritual/Desperate Ritual over Tinder Wall?

It seems like this would be better for your list:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Desperate Ritual
+4 Tinder Wall

[Bryant Cook]

Is there a reason to not play 52 cards in Belcher now?

Everyone's lists should have
-4 Street Wraith
-4 ManaMorphose
-4 Wild Cantor
-4 Dark Ritual
-X Cabal Ritual (It's now better than desperate ritual)

I don't see a reason to run desperate ritual/seething song.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Why Cabal Ritual/Desperate Ritual over Tinder Wall?

It seems like this would be better for your list:
-2 Cabal Ritual
-2 Desperate Ritual
+4 Tinder Wall

That would be fine, it all comes down to personal preference. I hate Tinder Wall in the deck, I always have and it didn't really give much of a mana boost anyway. Basically the deck is all R/B now which I like better. But yes, you can run Tinder Wall in that slot, I really just don't like the card.

[RoddyVR]

After getting beaten by this deck (piloted by ALegend) at the Hadley tourny, i've been considering building one for myself. Also goldfishing different builds of this on the train ride every day seems more fun then goldfishing burn decks.

I have a couple questions.

1. Why does this deck run green? Why not just go red/black?
The only real green card you run is Tinder Wall (land grant isnt realy green, its 0 cost). Is this one card realy worth having the third color? I'd leave the ESG in for the mana fixers and for colorless mana.

2. Why the love affair with landgrant?
Having land at all (especialy non mountain) can make belcher misfire.
Having 4 land grant + 1 land is like you have 5 of the same legendary card in your deck in that if you get more then 1 of them in your opening hand, you've got completely dead cards in your hand (a card of "0:reveal your hand, fail to find land" does not seem good, even it if adds to storm).
With 8 spirit guides, 4 petals and 4 chrome moxes, isnt 16 "initial mana" cards enough when you realy only need one to combo off.

[arsenalpow]

Even if you can't locate a land you can still cast land grant for free storm.

[StarkTheBloody]

Is there a reason to not play 52 cards in Belcher now?

Everyone's lists should have
-4 Street Wraith
-4 ManaMorphose
-4 Wild Cantor
-4 Dark Ritual
-X Cabal Ritual (It's now better than desperate ritual)

I don't see a reason to run desperate ritual/seething song.

Did you mean +4 Street Wraith +4 Manamophose?

[Nihil Credo]

Did you mean +4 Street Wraith +4 Manamophose?
No, he meant to run all the stuff he listed. What he suggested to cut were Seething Song and Desperate Ritual for their black counterparts, and add 8 manafixers along with 4 Street Wraith.

12 black sources (MM/Petal/Cantor) should be enough to consistently get black mana (16 if you use a Bayou, but that's a more debatable inclusion). The question becomes whether running Wild Cantor is worth it to enable the switch to black.

[jjjoness']

No, he meant to run all the stuff he listed. What he suggested to cut were Seething Song and Desperate Ritual for their black counterparts, and add 8 manafixers along with 4 Street Wraith.

12 black sources (MM/Petal/Cantor) should be enough to consistently get black mana (16 if you use a Bayou, but that's a more debatable inclusion). The question becomes whether running Wild Cantor is worth it to enable the switch to black.
If you really run that many black sources, how about replacing Taiga with Badlands?
The only card that requires green is actually Tinder Wall, and some sideboard stuff like Xantid Swarm, Hull Breach and Tranquility, but getting green shouldn't be a real issue since you still run SSG, Petal, Cantor, Morphosis, and Chrome Mox, which is an awesome 20 cards.

edit: Forget about this shit....reading Land Grant shatters all my dreams...^^

[Happy Gilmore]

Is there a reason to not play 52 cards in Belcher now?

Everyone's lists should have
-4 Street Wraith
-4 ManaMorphose
-4 Wild Cantor
-4 Dark Ritual
-X Cabal Ritual (It's now better than desperate ritual)

I don't see a reason to run desperate ritual/seething song.

Metamorphose needs a red or green source to create different colored mana. I've been testing a bunch of builds the last couple of days for fun and this is my current build.

4 Belcher
4 Burning Wish
3 ETW

4 Metamorphose
2 Wild Cantor

3 Desperate Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame

3 Thoughtseize

4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 LED

It has performed very well in goldfishing, and Thoughseize is so so much better than Pyroblast. You can use Thoughseize before going off with Burning Wish and LED. I also found having 6 mana converters to be around the right number.

[RoddyVR]

Even if you can't locate a land you can still cast land grant for free storm.

would you run a card that said:

"Storm count card"
CC= 0
Sorcery
Reveal you hand.

The fact that it can give you +1 storm count is crap. Manamorphose is getting negative feedback for ONLY giving storm count, but it costs no CARDS in addittion to costing no mana.

Has anyone ever tried this deck without landgrant (and i assume 0 lands at that point). Does the "Chrome mox as only reusable sourse of mana" thing suck so much that this just isnt an option?

[BreathWeapon]

Is there a reason to not play 52 cards in Belcher now?

Everyone's lists should have
-4 Street Wraith
-4 ManaMorphose
-4 Wild Cantor
-4 Dark Ritual
-X Cabal Ritual (It's now better than desperate ritual)

I don't see a reason to run desperate ritual/seething song.

I don't see a problem with Desperate Ritual, I'd prefer being able to cast a Desperate Ritual off of a Tinder Wall or Right of Flame as opposed to the off chance I'd ever reach Threshold for Cabal Ritual, and I don't think it's even possible to fit both Manamorphose/Wild Cantor and Street Wraith in the same deck.

[Pulp_Fiction]

It really is nice having a permanent mana source in play. Land Grant works well in that it adds free storm and after you play Belcher in a tournament and see a Chalice of the Void for 0 in play you will be glad you have a land in your deck, so far as Belcher misfires .... not really you only have to reveal 10 cards before you hit the Taiga and maybe 1-2% of the time or something sick like that will happen, but in all of the games I have played with Belcher I have only misfired 3 times with Taiga in the deck (out of hundreds of goldfishes and some tournament play). But that is one of the many upsides to playing Spoils of the Vault, you Spoils for Land Grant and win right there. But it also enables Reverent Silence in the wish board which is far superior to the other option Simplify.

[Ozymandias]

The percentage chance of misfiring with one land in the deck on turn 1 is 10/52= ~19 percent.

The percentage chance of not hitting a Taiga or Land Grant in your opening hand is approximately 50%

so for a one land list, you should whiff something like 10% of the time on a t1 belcher.

For a two-land list, you have a 60% chance of opening with at least one land, but your whiff percentage is going to be either 19 or 38 percent, depending on whether you fetch Taiga or Bayou.

So, my question is, is it ever really worth running a bayou to fetch?

[Brehn]

your whiff percentage is going to be (...) 38 percent,

So, my question is, is it ever really worth running a bayou to fetch?

It never was.

[Seregrauko]

Regarding the Bayou it had my concern as well.. Though I think I'd never run 2 lands, I pondered running 1 Bayou in my land slot. But I fear that this will cause Belcher misfires, since Bayou doesn't double the damage-outcome. This way you have to reveal approx. 20 cards from your library without showing your Bayou..

So the lone Taiga is probably still the way to go. But then we need the manafixers. (Manamorphose isn't just a storm card, and you don't run Land Grant just to produce stormcount, but it does it at worst)

I'm guessing that the 4 Cantors are mandatory then? I'm still not crazy about Desperate Rit, but it looks like we're stuck with it. (It can be cast off Tinder Wall / Rite of Flame, Cabal Rit can't)

Still kinda uncertain about SW, they do make your opening hands rather hard to read. And they do nothing compared to Manamorphose.

[Ozymandias]

I think that the deck might look something like this, in order to take advantage of Ritual:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual (Easier to make R than B, and you can't get threshold easily in this deck, unlike TES/FT)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Manamorphose
4 Wild Cantor

For a non-Ritual list, the big changes would be -4 Dark Ritual, +4 Seething Song, -4 Wild Cantor, +4 Street Wraith.

So you have 12 ways to cast a Dark Ritual in this deck. Is that enough to warrant its inclusion?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Why aren't you running Seething Song? It makes things a LOT better when you have it IMOP. Also I see that people are afraid to run Spoils of the Vault, literally no list has them in it, I would highly recommend running them as when you run more black cards you can afford to run more black rituals (more to imprint on Chrome Mox) and better mana adders. Really with the addition of Manamorphose you don't need Tinder Wall anymore. you can play more Cabal Rituals! Tinder Wall was always annoying to me since it is the only green card in the deck you spend mana on and on more than one occassion it has been totally useless due to its casting cost and sat in my hand. It also imprints on Chrome Mox and adds green ... how useless.

[Ozymandias]

Part of the problem with Seething song is that it makes a lot of your acceleration much worse versus FoW, because usually, if you cast it you've invested at lest two other pieces of acceleration into it. That measn that if the opponent (correctly) Forces the Song, you're not only -1 card, but you're -3 mana.

Compare to Dark Ritual. Ritual can be cast off of one piece of acceleration. So, if your opponent Forces it, you're -0 cards and -1 mana.

If either resolves, however, you still get the +2 mana. Therefore, Ritual is better.

Tinder Wall is better than Song for the same reasons, especially if you cast the Wall off of a Taiga.

The only problem with the Ritual is that a) the mana it produces is black, which can hurt sometimes, and b) you need black mana to cast it, which you only have 81% of the time.

[Michael Keller]

I can't honestly stand the whole concept behind people being afraid of Force of Will. It doesn't matter. Use the best possible acceleration spells and win. If someone has a Force of Will, it's at their discretion when they want to use it. You have to learn to play through it.

[Ozymandias]

You have 11 mindeck win conditions, only 3 of which have Storm.

In roughly 40% of all game 1s, and 90% of all game 2 and 3s, you'll be facing a Force of Will.

Playing less "All in" type acceleration, like Seething Song, means that you can rebuild after it without getting completely wrecked.

Put another way, why does nobody with an R/G list play Channel the Suns? After all, it's better than a do-nothing card like Street Wraith...

[Happy Gilmore]

You have 11 mindeck win conditions, only 3 of which have Storm.

In roughly 40% of all game 1s, and 90% of all game 2 and 3s, you'll be facing a Force of Will.

Playing less "All in" type acceleration, like Seething Song, means that you can rebuild after it without getting completely wrecked.

Put another way, why does nobody with an R/G list play Channel the Suns? After all, it's better than a do-nothing card like Street Wraith...

That logic is completely flawed. Do you have any idea how long it will take to rebuild after getting a Seathing Songs countered?

The investment is huge. And if you cant go off turn 1 (but can resolve a belcher) you will have a lot more chances of drawing a ritual effect you can cast in the following turns without the Seathing Songs.

[Ozymandias]

That logic is completely flawed. Do you have any idea how long it will take to rebuild after getting a Seathing Songs countered?

The investment is huge. And if you cant go off turn 1 (but can resolve a belcher) you will have a lot more chances of drawing a ritual effect you can cast in the following turns without the Seathing Songs.

You are not comprehending my staement.

Seething song is the sort of "all-in" acceleration I was talking about not playing. That means that you can rebuild more quickly after the Force of will.

Lrn2parse.

[b4r0n]

Playing less "All in" type acceleration, like Seething Song, means that you can rebuild after it without getting completely wrecked.

By this logic, LED would also be a bad card to play; discarding your hand is the epitome of going "all in". Point is, neither LED nor Song should be disregarded because of the mere chance that they'll be countered. They help you to win, and that's enough.


Put another way, why does nobody with an R/G list play Channel the Suns? After all, it's better than a do-nothing card like Street Wraith...

Channel the Suns costs 4, which is as much as your win conditions. It also only nets you 1 mana, and requires green. There's no good reason to run it, unlike Street Wraith, which can be considered to "reduce" your deck size by 4 and allow for greater consistency. I fail to see how your argument is at all relevant.

[Ozymandias]

What you're missing is that when LED gets countered, you lose no mana, and are +1 on cards. And in the one situation where you would sacrifice LED (after a wish, without passing priority) you'll probably lose to FoW on the Wish first, since you'd only have two cards in hand at most. If you play LED to, say, activate Charbelcher, you win. So it is different.

[BreathWeapon]

People who don't see the difference between Seething Song getting countered and Dark Ritual getting countered are being ignorant, the mana investment into Dark Ritual is less than the mana investment into Seething Song, so getting Dark Ritual countered is easier to recover from than getting Seething Song countered. If the choice is between Seething Song and Dark Ritual, then the answer is going to be Dark Ritual.

No one is saying Seething Song is bad, we're saying any 1 for 2 or 2 for 3 accelerant would be superior.

Off tangent, Channel the Suns isn't so bad, if it's the difference between activating Belcher on the same turn you cast it and 6 mana for Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens, I'd consider it in R/g Belcher over Manamorphose, especially if you're running Living Wish -> Slithermuse.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I can't honestly stand the whole concept behind people being afraid of Force of Will. It doesn't matter. Use the best possible acceleration spells and win. If someone has a Force of Will, it's at their discretion when they want to use it. You have to learn to play through it.

Is there anything more that needs to be said after this? After all the "oh .. this is better because .... or what if they counter this ...." playing suboptimal acceleration like Tinder Wall instead of Seething Song just because your opponent may counter a few spells will result in a deck that is just that ... suboptimal.

[BreathWeapon]

Is there anything more that needs to be said after this? After all the "oh .. this is better because .... or what if they counter this ...." playing suboptimal acceleration like Tinder Wall instead of Seething Song just because your opponent may counter a few spells will result in a deck that is just that ... suboptimal.

Dude, if you think Tinder Wall is suboptimal you have no clue what you're talking about, Tinder Wall is the second best ritual in the deck.

[sunshine]

I'm sorry but I think it is wrong to just ignore the fact that you will have to face disruption over the course of a tournament. I wont argue with you that seething song is more fun (maybe even better) to goldfish with, but not every player is going to just let you just goldfish every game. If an opponent has a force in hand, and they know what they're doing, they wont hold their force until you try to drop a win condition (because ETW doesn't care about force) - they'll point that force at the accelerant that you've invested the most mana into. In other words, running high mana cost accelerants is something we should be trying to avoid if possible in order to improve our nightmare matchups. The problems is we also need a critical mass of accelerants to ensure that we can combo out quickly, so we have been stuck with seething song.

Think about this from the control player's perspective. Whenever I sit down against belcher with thresh/landstill I practically pray for them to try and resolve a seething song so I can force it and watch them fizzle.

[m03]

If an opponent has a force in hand, and they know what they're doing, they wont hold their force until you try to drop a win condition (because ETW doesn't care about force) - they'll point that force at the accelerant that you've invested the most mana into.

Right, if they have a FoW, then they should be targeting any mana accelerant that puts you over 4 mana, regardless of what it is. If you go Land -> Tinder Wall -> Rite of Flame -> Desperate Ritual, then they should be countering Desperate Ritual.

Ultimately, the results are the same though, right? So you might as well run Seething Song anyway.

[nightbringer]

And now for something completely different ...

With al this talk about playing dark ritual without bayou i started thinking.
Could we play orims chant main now?

That might be something to think about because if if whe could do this than force becomes a lot less of a problem.

Its just a thought so don't shoot me for saying this.:rolleyes:

[Michael Keller]

Is there anything more that needs to be said after this? After all the "oh .. this is better because .... or what if they counter this ...." playing suboptimal acceleration like Tinder Wall instead of Seething Song just because your opponent may counter a few spells will result in a deck that is just that ... suboptimal.

Are you serious? Tinder Wall is the heart and soul of this deck.

I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about or what you said. I play both in my build, which is what any good Belcher deck should play.


Right, if they have a FoW, then they should be targeting any mana accelerant that puts you over 4 mana, regardless of what it is. If you go Land -> Tinder Wall -> Rite of Flame -> Desperate Ritual, then they should be countering Desperate Ritual.


That's not all together true. See, a control player might just let you get to four mana because they think you're going to cast a Goblin Charbelcher or Burning Wish, then counter it. But little do they understand you could Empty the Warrens - which is what you should try and mulligan into if you know your opponent is playing heavy control. I've fallen victim to the previous logic, and this is where my memo comes from. If you don't open game two with a R.E.B. or Empty the Warrens, you should mulligan. If you're opponent keeps their opening hand, then you know you made the right choice.

And to be openly honest about this deck, it really feels like there is no such thing as an "optimal" build, only an optimal pool of cards. I'm sure Pulp Fiction's deck can combo out turn one. So can mine. I bet Breath's deck does it often too. But, unfortunately, some people don't understand how fragile this combo deck is and that it is that way in nature. That was how it was originally intended to be: Blazing speed and a win condition, that's it. Of course, you could always try running Orim's Chant - which would be kind of cool with Channel the Suns and Manamorphose.

But again, you're sacrificing acceleration for defense. But that's the big question now, isn't it?

[Nihil Credo]

If your opponent doesn't know that decks with lots of Red rituals run motherfucking Empty the Warrens, he's either a terrible player or has zero experience with Vintage, Legacy, or Extended.

[Ozymandias]

The thing is that your opponent shouldn't be forcing anything that puts you over 4 mana. Because Empty the Warrens is only going to be the kill card 3/11~27% of the time. He should instead wait to Force the much more likely Belcher or Burning Wish. Even in the situation where you have the Empty, your FoW-palying opponent will most likely have an answer, especially after sideboard.

The reason that Seething Song is different than other accelearion is because once it gets Forced, you've spent 3 pieces of acceleration on it, and then you get crushed because you have 3 cards in hand and no mana in your pool.

[BreathWeapon]

The thing is that your opponent shouldn't be forcing anything that puts you over 4 mana. Because Empty the Warrens is only going to be the kill card 3/11~27% of the time. He should instead wait to Force the much more likely Belcher or Burning Wish. Even in the situation where you have the Empty, your FoW-palying opponent will most likely have an answer, especially after sideboard.

The reason that Seething Song is different than other accelearion is because once it gets Forced, you've spent 3 pieces of acceleration on it, and then you get crushed because you have 3 cards in hand and no mana in your pool.

27% of the time is enough to warrant countering the acceleration, the counter is still damaging Belcher's game plan enough to be worth it regardless and you can't risk the 27% of the time Empty the Warrens makes you look like a dumb ass because you decided to be greedy.

[Ozymandias]

It really depends. Because let's assume that the opponent has played 3 accelerants, so he has three mana in his mana pool, and is obv. holding one kill condition, so that he has 3 unknown cards in hand. Then, he plays a 1-mana accelerator.

If you counter, you basically lose. Because your opponent has, a hypothetical 11 win cons, 4 street Wraith, and 45 acceleration, so that there's little to no chance that he's holding at least two more win conditions, which is what you would need to have your counter be effectful. Otherwise, he ramps up to that 4 mana through your counters and plays what he was gonna play anyway. 8/11 of the time. Or, he could cast Burning Wish, and find something good anyway.

With a two-mana accelerator, countering it makes more sense, because your opponent has a (39/49) 50% chance of not holding enough accelerators to get back up to four mana. But still, the fact that he could Wish for a storm win con and win later means you might want to hold off. Because he could storm for then the next turn.

Which brings me to the point that if your opponent plays a seething song off of three or four mana, you should counter, and then laugh. Because he can't recover.

So, the only time it's right to counter going above four mana is when it's with a Seething Song

[b4r0n]

It really depends. Because let's assume that the opponent has played 3 accelerants, so he has three mana in his mana pool, and is obv. holding one kill condition, so that he has 3 unknown cards in hand. Then, he plays a 1-mana accelerator.

If you counter, you basically lose. Because your opponent has, a hypothetical 11 win cons, 4 street Wraith, and 45 acceleration, so that there's little to no chance that he's holding at least two more win conditions, which is what you would need to have your counter be effectful. Otherwise, he ramps up to that 4 mana through your counters and plays what he was gonna play anyway. 8/11 of the time. Or, he could cast Burning Wish, and find something good anyway.

Not really. If you counter the accelerant, he has 2 mana in his pool and 3 cards in hand. To win from this situation, he needs those 3 cards to consist of 2 accelerants and EtW. If those are the cards he has in hand, he wins regardless of which spell you counter. But if he only has 1 accelerant, he fizzles. Or, if has a Wish or a Belcher instead of EtW, he fizzles for the turn. By countering that accelerant, you have the greatest chance of stopping the combo.


So, the only time it's right to counter going above four mana is when it's with a Seething Song

As described above, this isn't true (unless you have an answer to EtW).

[Ozymandias]

THe thing is, the chance of his two remaining cards being accelerants is actually (40/50)^2=64%, and the chance of his kill being ETW is 27%.

So 36% of the time, countering the 1-mana accel wins, and 64% of the time, it loses. Granted, he might not have enough mana to Wish and Warrens, but just letting him get EtW in his hand is bad. Even so, if he has the wish and you say it doesn't win. the percentages go to 64% lose to 40% lose.

Now, compare that to not countering the accelerant. This play wins 73% of the time and loses 27% of the time. Therefore, it's better to not counter a 1-mana accelerant that would push them to four. However, you should counter 2-and-3-drop accelerants, since those make him lose if they fail.

[b4r0n]

THe thing is, the chance of his two remaining cards being accelerants is actually (40/50)^2=64%, and the chance of his kill being ETW is 27%.

So 36% of the time, countering the 1-mana accel wins, and 64% of the time, it loses. Granted, he might not have enough mana to Wish and Warrens, but just letting him get EtW in his hand is bad. Even so, if he has the wish and you say it doesn't win. the percentages go to 64% lose to 40% lose.

Now, compare that to not countering the accelerant. This play wins 73% of the time and loses 27% of the time. Therefore, it's better to not counter a 1-mana accelerant that would push them to four. However, you should counter 2-and-3-drop accelerants, since those make him lose if they fail.

How are you coming up with these numbers?

This still doesn't seem right to me. By countering that accelerant and leaving the Belcher player with 2 mana in pool, 3 cards in hand, they have the following outs:


accelerant, accelerant, EtW (your counter was irrelevant anyways)


accelerant (or LED), LED, Wish (requiring 2 specific 4-ofs, plus an accelerant... aka a pretty slim chance)


accelerant, accelerant, Belcher (they can drop a Belcher but won't be able to kill you this turn... in this case, yes, it would have been a wiser play to save the counterspell for the Belcher)

In any other case, they fizzle. Am I missing something?

Additionally, keep in mind that we've only been discussing a hand of 7. For each mulligan the Belcher player takes, they have drastically fewer outs, so countering that accelerant becomes better and better.

[m03]

THe thing is, the chance of his two remaining cards being accelerants is actually (40/50)^2=64%, and the chance of his kill being ETW is 27%.


But what are the chances of them being usable accelerants for the situation? If it's a LED and a Dark Ritual, for instance, it could be a couple of turns before they draw into anything allowing them to be useful. In the mean time, the control player is drawing into more counters.

[Ozymandias]

Take a theoretical decklist with 11 kill conditions, 4 Street Wraith, and 45 mana spells. So, given that there is at least 1 kill condition in their hand, and 4 accelerants, what could the other cards be?

The first one has a 41/51 chance of being a mana source(41 sources and 10 kill cons left in the effectively 51-card deck). If the first once is a mana source, the second one then has a 40/50 chance of being a mana source. So, the chance of them being both sources is (41/51)*(40/50)=about 64% for them both to be mana sources. I took the fact that there's no real instawin from burning wish into account, and multiplied by 7/11 Win conditions for the one in hand, thereby coming up with 40% for the insta loss chance from countering.

Also, for any give situation, the first accelerant I would play would be LED. You lose the least from an opponent's FoW.

Also, bear in mind that if a Belcher player storms off for something like 8 goblin tokens, holding something back to rebuild off of, countering the main copy of EtW gives you a whole extra turn to find something

[Pulp_Fiction]

Also more numbers to keep in mind, your opponent is only going to have Force of Will in their opening hand 40ish% of the time. And while we are comparing numbers lets also assume the control player takes mulligans as well, possibly mulling (down to 5 at lowest) trying to find Force of Will or Stifle, then we need to take into consideration the amount of time they give the Belcher player to rebuild after mulling into their necessary counter/control cards.

[syssc9]

I don't mean to be a downer or anything, but calculating all these simple percentages may not be the most accurate representation of what this deck does/is doing in any given situation. I think we need someone with more than passing acquaintance with hard-core statistical analysis to help us. Unfortunately, that ain't me. I am no longer in school, nor do I currently have access to such a person, but if one of us is taking a course in statistics, it is often possible to get help from the teacher/professor and get some extra credit at the same time (not to mention brownie points.) Not bad for working on a Magic deck. Getting a real expert involved may yield some real gold, especially for a deck like this. Anyone who has ever been involved, even if only peripherally, with statistics can tell you, it is far from obvious or intuitive. Hey, you might even suck the Prof into our game!

[ratzes]

Isn't Richard Garfield a phd in combinatorics, maybe we can talk to him lol.

We don't need a phd in stats to calculate all of these probabilities... its just glorified counting. The problem is in deciding on a deck to analyze. Get together a base deck, and we can start filling out all of the probabilities.

[ratzes]

Oh, if you meant probabilites taking into consideration what your opponent does, you are looking at something with the complexities of chess and go, but on an even greater level.

The best way to figure that sort of stuff out is play testing, combinatorics isn't going to help there.

[chocomel]

Hey guys,
I started tweaking belcher a few weeks ago, because i wanted to add dark rituals...
When manamorphose was printed, i first got the idea because splashing for an other color would be a lot easier.
So i removed the inverior rituals and added dark rituals and cabal rituals.
To support cabal rituals I also added 4 street wraith's in addition to the mana morphoses, so getting ******** never has been easier before!
With the "new" rituals the deck was faster than before and it could storm a lot easier, so replaced the EtW with tendrills but didn't like the mainboard storm stuff like Ill-gotten gains, tendrills, etw, etc..
So I decided to move all of it to the sideboard, after all it was a belcher deck, so the main win should be belcher.
While adding infernal tutor's to replace EtW I kept the same possibilities to get some business at hands..


Here's the list:

// Lands
1 [B] Bayou
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
3 [GP] Wild Cantor
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [US] Dark Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
1 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [MI] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [AL] Diminishing Returns

Short card explinations:
2 lands, sometimes you need red, sometimes black to power up the eninge, so playing only with 1 land isn't a possibility, i think...

Wild Cantor, mana fix, storm

Simian Spirit Guide, fuel, imprint target, start-up

Streetwraith, cabal ritual fuel, imprint target, deck thinning

Dark ritual, best ritual ever printed

Rite of Flame, second best ritual printed

Cabal Ritual / Desperate Ritual, not that good ritual but they are needed, cabal ritual slightly better than desperate in this deck...

Land Grant, free storm, and land is good

Chrome Mox, startup, free storm.

Manamorphose, the best filler card ever printed, mana fix, free storm, and instant card draw, all for the relative cost of 0.

Seething Song, well this one kind of sucks, you almost can't keep a hand with 2 of these, and 3 mana is a lot tho get the party started, so that's why I only play 1 and I didn't know what else to put in it's place..



Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish, utilty, storm, kill searcher.

Goblin Charbelcher, well the deck is named after it, so it should have at least 1 belcher in it, don't you think?

Lotus Petal/Lion's Eye Diamond , mana fix, fuel, etc

So that's it, a belcher deck that can easilly storm for 10 and killing with a tendrills with the right hand and a improved chance to win t1 and 2 by using a belcher..

Comment is welcome :)

[GGoober]

I've always thought that black is a good addition due to Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor for your win condition or Burning Wish then win. 3 color Belcher is a little strained for the 1st two turns without a land grant, or if it gets FOWed. You would then have to rely on either manamorphose or Wild Cantor/LED to effectively cast off a ritual (not possible with LED since you'd lose your ritual). Perhaps tweaking with the list to make black as consistent a source as red and green would make this new list strong. The heart of Belcher is still in RG though,but I personally like a black splash for Infernal Tutor, IGG. Hell, in the Fetchlands Tendrils, Doomsday is the big addition that wins if left uncountered. But this deck can't really support Doomsday since there's no way to protect the combo (FT has Chants to resolve their combo safely). Belcher is more focused on the fast explosive wins, and the right bluffs and right timings when casting off your accelerants, comboing off.

[m03]

But this deck can't really support Doomsday since there's no way to protect the combo (FT has Chants to resolve their combo safely).

Besides the fact that Charbelcher and EtW don't work well with an empty library.

[Mental]

I've always thought that black is a good addition due to Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor for your win condition or Burning Wish then win. 3 color Belcher is a little strained for the 1st two turns without a land grant, or if it gets FOWed. You would then have to rely on either manamorphose or Wild Cantor/LED to effectively cast off a ritual (not possible with LED since you'd lose your ritual). Perhaps tweaking with the list to make black as consistent a source as red and green would make this new list strong. The heart of Belcher is still in RG though,but I personally like a black splash for Infernal Tutor, IGG. Hell, in the Fetchlands Tendrils, Doomsday is the big addition that wins if left uncountered. But this deck can't really support Doomsday since there's no way to protect the combo (FT has Chants to resolve their combo safely). Belcher is more focused on the fast explosive wins, and the right bluffs and right timings when casting off your accelerants, comboing off.

What's all the hype about Doomsday suddenly? Since FT started running it, it's like the new "thing" to put in combo decks. Really, the card is mediocore at best, slightly better than IGG with set up/in certain MUs, and definitely isn't worth running in any combo deck but FT.

For what it's worth, I think black is unnecessary in Belcher. Doesn't RG Belcher have a critical mass of mana acceleration in any event? And has room for some REBs? Seems like playing Black is unnecessary, especially if you need to play crap like Wild Cantor. Infernal Tutor could be nice, but seriously, in MUs where it won't get FoWd, you win anyways.

[syssc9]

I agree that 3 colors is a strain on Belcher. I mentioned in an earlier post dropping black and going to R/G for the improved consistency. Well, when you look at it, green is splashed only for Tinder Wall. At least it is the only card I actually need green to cast in my deck. IMO it is just as legitimate to drop green altogether (I know, some of you are already screaming, “Heresy!”) and going exclusively to the black splash. This gives access not only to Dark Ritual, but To Tendrils of Agony and various tutors and recursion affects.

Down with Taiga! Up with Badlands! Viva la Revolucion!

[sunshine]

the problem with dropping green completely is not just losing tinder wall but also land grant as well as the effectiveness of elvish spirit guide. you’re giving up eight free mana sources and not picking any up. go ahead and test a list without green but I suspect you will not be too happy with the consistency.

[syssc9]

Land Grant is always cast for free. Always. Who, when playing this deck, would spend 2 to get one? Not I. Elvish Spirit guide still produces mana, albeit now it only qualifies as generic. I probably shouldn't hold my breath for Phyrexian Spirit Guide, but since I put Cantor back in the deck and am also running Manamorphose, I am having no more consistency problems running Black than I was running Green. I have done considerable testing with this new configuration (and am now sleeping on the couch, instead of in bed with my wife, see my previous post *Ninja Edit - couple of posts back) but as yet have no competitive experience with the new configuration. Perhaps you should also do some testing, you might like it ;-). Either way it's a Red Deck with a one color minor splash, either b or g.

[sunshine]

obviously my point - it's a free accelerant. and if you cut green and only run badlands you wont have any forests to get with it... even if you cast it for free ;)

[syssc9]

Oops! As my youngest daughter would say, "Well, duh, Dad!" Can I use 'senior moment' as an excuse? I did turn 60 this year...
(Where is that damn drawing board, anyhow?)

@ sunshine
OK, now that it's been a couple weeks, I gotta tell ya...
You should have seen me, diligently testing, goldfishing away and pulling that Badland out with the Land Grant, over and over, just as happy as if I had good sense. Boy, it was working great! I must have forgotten to pay the premium on my moron insurance that month.

[Michael Keller]

I agree that 3 colors is a strain on Belcher. I mentioned in an earlier post dropping black and going to R/G for the improved consistency. Well, when you look at it, green is splashed only for Tinder Wall. At least it is the only card I actually need green to cast in my deck. IMO it is just as legitimate to drop green altogether (I know, some of you are already screaming, “Heresy!”) and going exclusively to the black splash. This gives access not only to Dark Ritual, but To Tendrils of Agony and various tutors and recursion affects.

Down with Taiga! Up with Badlands! Viva la Revolucion!

Cutting green out of Belcher is terrible. Land Grant and Tinder Wall are critical mana producers that start your acceleration and improve your win ratio. Dark Ritual should be played anyways with green and red. You have Lotus Petals and Wild Cantors/Manamorphose to produce black. It was never a problem for me.

[StarkTheBloody]

Dark Ritual should be played anyways with green and red. You have Lotus Petals and Wild Cantors/Manamorphose to produce black. It was never a problem for me.

QFT. I can probably count on one hand the amount of times I've been unable to cast Dark Ritual.

[Vacrix]

how has goblin welder worked out for belcher? i think that it wud be a nice side in against control because its essentially another LED/belcher.

the build in my play group runs 4 of them mainboard with success. it wud be better anyway to put them in 2 prepare for the control match-up since that is your main problem. and you can get rid of chalice's and trinispheres with them too if ur opponent plays lotus petals.

[NQN]

obv every staxx/dragonstompy plays 4 lotus petal. worst argument ever -.-

[Brehn]

Who the hell plays Trinisphere and Lotus Petals in the same deck?

[StarkTheBloody]

Who the hell plays Trinisphere and Lotus Petals in the same deck?

Uh, no one. Might get lucky and get a Mox Diamond or stax in the graveyard to weld out chalice, but not too likely.

[lavafrogg]

The deck started green black and green black red but with the printing of of empty the warrens and the inclusion of burning wish made the deck not lose to itself.
Plunge into darkness has a potential to miss and the original spoils of the vault had the potential to kill you.
The deck has moved from the find a LED to win to have a FOW or lose.

[Vacrix]

lol plzz i wasnt arguing that welder should be included because some people play petals in stax/stompy. its because if ur belcher gets forced you are kind of fucked. it would be nice to have another way to get it into play once its in ur grave. i mean i know that the deck has other avenues of play if ur belcher is forced, like ETW but the deck if u can belch ftw then why not?

in fact you can even play the welder, LED, pass the turn. next turn, break the LED, discarding belcher, and then weld in the belcher, if u have another artifact to pitch to it that is.

and that is usually the reason you would play welder at all. the other reasons were just things i thought of off the top of my head when i was writing that.

and ya u r more likely to see mox diamond than lotus petal. i overlooked that..

[Pulp_Fiction]

Although I think it is pointless to say this because all people are going to say is "well it kills you, no point endangering yourself even more, Spoils isnt good cause you die to often" but to be honest Spoils of the Vault/Plunge into Darkness is better than Welder in this deck in that if Spoils resolves you will 99.8% of the time win that turn thats why I like it better than Plunge into Darkness and Welder probably won't survive long enough to do anything. But playing Spoils makes it so you are essentially playing 14-15 Kill sources as opposed to 11 and fetches out acceleration when you are in need. I recommend playing 3x because seeing it in multiples blows and you only want to cast 1x a game, not several. Recently on deckcheck.net 2x belcher decks top4ed running Spoils. So please, no comments on how it can kill you, you are playing a combo deck that is all or nothing and Spoils is that kind of card and helps the deck maintain it's speed which is essential and also makes the deck more resiliant to hand destruction.

[GreenOne]

if Spoils resolves you will 99.8% of the time win that turn
You might find this interesting:

I thought that somebody might find this interesting. As far as spoils of the vault goes and assuming that you are at 20 life.

If you have 53 cards left in the deck, spoils has a:
(49!*(53-20)!)/(53!*(49-20)!) = 13.97% of killing you searching for a 4 of.

If you have 52, (48!*(52-20)!)/(52!*(48-20)!) = 13.28%
If 51, (47!*(51-20)!)/(51!*(47-20)!) = 12.59%
If 50, (46!*(50-20)!)/(50!*(46-20)!) = 11.90%

I don't think that it is often that you would take more than 10 cards out of your library before you are looking at dipping below 20 life in legacy, whereas spoils is a bad idea anyway unless you are desperate.

Looks like the 99,8% is more like a 87%.
Also, you don't win that turn if not going for the belcher kill. This means you need at least 8 manas instead of 4 (ETW), 6 (Burning wish) or 7 (Belcher + activation).
Also, this math is done with 20 life at disposal when searching for a 4 of. This is not always the case: the opponent could have a Lightning Bolt or Mogg Fanatic to decrease your life, you could have a Belcher in hand that you need to discard to LED and tutor for another one, a Blecher can get discarded etc.

Yeah, if Spoils resolves AND you're still alive you can be in good shape, but it's useless in multiples (I'd play a 1 or 2x if I had to), and it makes you lose >=13% of the games you play it. This doesn't help consistency IMO. I'd better play Manamorphose or Street Wraith that (without using off-color mana, or even mana at all) gives me a 20% probability (11/53) of drawing a win condition if i don't have it in hand (which is unlikely).

[Vacrix]

ya i agree with GreenOne. it doesnt really improve your game that much. if you are losing more and winning more than the consistency just seems alil shaky to me.

welder isnt necessarily a mainboard, but rather a side in. most likely your opponent will remove their removal like StP, bolt, etc once they see that you are playing belcher, unless of course they expect welder. spoils isnt really something that your opponent is going to force. welder on the other hand seems much more dangerous if it hits the field. especially if you slow play it because then if your opp has no removal you jus need to wait for a lion's eye and/or a belcher, or some other combination to go off.

[DeathwingZERO]

The most common versions of Belcher from a while back were maindecking both Spoils and Welder to great degree. As far as search goes, nothing beats Spoils. It's a 1 mana instant speed investment that only suicides 10% of the time. I can't say I can see any better use for 4 slots.

As far as Welder is concerned though, I don't think it's necessarily good anymore at all. Most control decks would still expect it, seeing as it's LED 5-8 in most cases. At the very least, there's a ton of graveyard hate, a ton of creature hate, and a ton of Needle's and such running around rampant. So in reality, Welder turns ALL of your opponents answers online, at once. Not necessarily the best play.

I'm tweaking up a new list, seeing as I haven't played the deck in about 2 1/2-3 years time. If I find it useful enough, I'll end up playing it at the DLD coming up on Sunday out here in Vancouver.

[GreenOne]

The most common versions of Belcher from a while back were maindecking both Spoils and Welder to great degree. As far as search goes, nothing beats Spoils. It's a 1 mana instant speed investment that only suicides 10% of the time. I can't say I can see any better use for 4 slots.

Yeah, a couple of years ago spoils was hot, because it was the only reliable tutor to get your only win condition (belcher). The card was played by some tendrils deck too (namely Nausea).

Time passed and new cards were printed. With the addition of Empty the Warrens the deck gained some more hot material to work with, changed a lot of the manabase and its win conditions.

Results:
- Spoils is in a very secondary color to the deck.
- The deck already can mulligan into one if its 11 win conditions if it needs to, so a tutor like spoils is unneded
- It can't tutor directly for ETW (well, it can, but the risk becomes higher) so every win condition becomes a costy one. Belcer costs 7B and epty the warrens costs 4RRB.

[m03]

The most common versions of Belcher from a while back were maindecking both Spoils and Welder to great degree. As far as search goes, nothing beats Spoils. It's a 1 mana instant speed investment that only suicides 10% of the time. I can't say I can see any better use for 4 slots.


It's been discussed several times over the last 12 pages or so of replies. I tested heavily with and without Spoils, and came to the conclusion that it didn't make that much of a difference, so it was best to just not run it.

[DeathwingZERO]

My main question to those who don't wish to run Spoils is this:

In a metagame where EtW is not an option, what do you do to get Belcher online ASAP? Spoils is a first turn guaranteed hit for a 4 of, with the risk of a 10% loss due to just bad shuffles.

So you've got 7B to hit Belcher activation counting Spoils for something needed, but the B can be from a first turn Chrome/Land and the 7 on the next turn, it doesn't need to be all at once. This compared to 8B from Infernal Tutor (requiring you to rip your hand via LED or reveal something you need a duplicate of, giving opponents far too much information already, AND would more or less require it to be the same turn you are going off, or a critical piece of accelerant), or the same from Plunge, which has a better chance of whiffing, due to most people not going past say 10 life.

My personal thoughts is with a mixture of the 3, the consistency level of the opening 7 hits a far more acceptable level. The build I am testing on runs those, as well as still being able to fit in Burning Wish and Street Wraith, and still have 39 pieces of mana. While I'm not certain it's going to be amazing with the numbers I have, it's at least a much better deck than it was a few years back.

If I start showing any results over the next week of playtesting for the weekend bash, I'll list the deck and see what people would change. Chances are though it'd be just a few cards, and I'm actually pretty fine with that. Belcher lists have always had personal tweaks in them.

[GreenOne]

My main question to those who don't wish to run Spoils is this:

In a metagame where EtW is not an option, what do you do to get Belcher online ASAP? Spoils is a first turn guaranteed hit for a 4 of, with the risk of a 10% loss due to just bad shuffles.


In a meta where ETW is not an option I'd play another deck. Seriously, if you want a deck That goes balls to the wall and doesn' play ETW, just look for Spanish Inquisition. It runs belcher too and has an amazing turn 1 wins percentage. Belcher without ETW is just clunky and has less game against Force of Will. If you need all those setup spells to tutor for Belcher then you'll probably win on turn 2 because on turn 1 you searching for it. This leaves time for the opponent to play Brainstorm/Ponder/ leave stifle mana open or to play a Pithing Needle postside.

And the loss from spoils are >=13%, not due to bad shuffles. It's mere statistic.

EDIT: I forgot that spanish inquisition existed. Damn, that deck is a blast!

[Bourgeoise]

Just to get the ball rolling on this again and to get some more thoughts on the black splash......

Recently I got back into this deck and have been working on the black splash a lot. The only green card I kept in my version was the Land grant and I dropped the Elvish Spirit Guide completely running 4 Street Wraith in its place, I have found that my problem usually is not getting the mana in my opening hand to start comboing off, but to open with one of my win cons. I tested some with Wild Cantor and the hands that I opened it in I never needed it to fix mana, having 2 free mana and a win con or tutor almost always resulted in comboing off. Having the necessary 2 mana in opening hand also makes the deck I'm running technically a 52 card deck between Street Wraith and Manamorphose. Some ideas in here are from my own personal experiences with the deck and reflect my play style, so please don't bash but constructive criticism is welcome.

Here's the list:

1x Taiga
1x Bayou
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Land Grant

4x Goblin Charbelcher
3x Empty the Warrens
3x Infernal Tutor
1x Burning Wish

4x Manamorphose
4x Street Wraith

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
3x Seething Song
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual

SB:
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Pyroclasm (iffy, cave in does not work here)
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Diminishing Returns
4x Overmaster
3x Magus of the Moon
3x Shattering Spree

In goldfishing it was possible to hit 18 goblin tokens without much difficulty and with a perfect hand you could pump out 20, R/G belcher usually maxed out at 14-16 when I used to play it and I like the possibility of getting to 20 since it gives the opponent one less turn if you end up having to go the goblin route.

Overmaster is a personal favorite over blasts and seems situational but I feel it can be very powerful for what this deck needs because of a tournament I ran r/g belcher in right before I stopped playing the deck. Two games in a row I opened a hand with wish a blast and LED, so I combo off sac the LED in response to my wish and get the wish countered I had extra mana for the blast but had to discard it, Overmaster would have won both games. Most people would rather run blasts probably in order to protect the belcher itself, but against control I usually go for the tokens anyways and this card compliments that game plan very well.

Overmaster can be cast right before the tutor you need to resolve which is where smart players will try to disrupt you anyways. An added bonus is that you draw a card off of it and if it is an artifact accel or land you can just play it before you cast your tutor, and if it is instant speed accel you can cast in response to your tutor.

First turn Magus of the Moon can end games against some decks, but that slot is up for grabs really.

[Michael Keller]

I agree with Overmaster. It cantrips and stops your opponent from countering your win condition - all for one mana.

[Shimster]

Personally, I don't like Overmaster. It doesn't force Belcher through, It doesn't help against Stifle on EtW and the control player normally doesn't have to counter a late Burning Wish.

Pyroblast is way faster - you don't need to cast it, you just have to bluff it. While it counters Force and Stifle, it is also able to blast Counterbalance.

I am currently testing two versions of CRET Belcher: One uses Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor, one is straight RG and uses Street Wraith.

// Lands
1 Taiga

// Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall

// Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
4 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Simplify
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

vs.

// Lands
1 Taiga

// Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Wild Cantor

// Spells
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

// Sideboard
4 Pyroblast
4 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
1 Thoughtseize
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony

I haven't finished testing yet, but as the RGb list is more explosive, the RG list is more consistent.

[linux-ll-]

I tested this Belcher list and I´m very satisfied.

// Lands
1 [R] Bayou
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall

// Spells
4 Manamorphose
3 Seething Song
1 Desperate Ritual
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
3 Rite of Flame
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CS] Rite of Flame
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 2 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [10E] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation

The Sideboard was made for my meta, a lot of Landstill and NQG

[MasterBlaster]

@linux-ll-

The belcher list that I run is almost exactly like your's except I have:

-1 Bayou
-1 Desperate Ritual

+1 Seething Song
+1 Rite of Flame

I'm curious, why do you run a single Desperate Ritual instead of making it a 4-of of Seething Song or Rite of Flame?

[RockOfTheFormat]

You might find this interesting:


Looks like the 99,8% is more like a 87%.
Also, you don't win that turn if not going for the belcher kill. This means you need at least 8 manas instead of 4 (ETW), 6 (Burning wish) or 7 (Belcher + activation).
Also, this math is done with 20 life at disposal when searching for a 4 of. This is not always the case: the opponent could have a Lightning Bolt or Mogg Fanatic to decrease your life, you could have a Belcher in hand that you need to discard to LED and tutor for another one, a Blecher can get discarded etc.

Yeah, if Spoils resolves AND you're still alive you can be in good shape, but it's useless in multiples (I'd play a 1 or 2x if I had to), and it makes you lose >=13% of the games you play it. This doesn't help consistency IMO. I'd better play Manamorphose or Street Wraith that (without using off-color mana, or even mana at all) gives me a 20% probability (11/53) of drawing a win condition if i don't have it in hand (which is unlikely).

I checked the math on this, and I am 100% sure that you spent way too much time figuring this out, and another 73% sure that you need to beer bong a 40 oz. of Old E and then hold your breath als long as you can, just to make sure you are still alive. Math is funny. So many squiggles and crazy symbols, and it all ends up useless when you are face to face with the girl of your dreams. Unless that girl is Leelee Sobiesky, she really likes the nerdy guys.

You're real good at wasting my time. I've decided to ban your IP.

Sincerely,

PR

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Yeah, nothing says "class" like being a pot-bellied frat boy lying in a pool of his own vomit, Bud Lite and STD-soiled linen.

I'm sorry, let me translate that into a more appropros vernacular.



WHOOOT! CHUG! WHOOO!!11 WAZAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap?




PS: Show me your boobies.




On a less serious note, cantrips seem terrible, since the eliminate Belcher's biggest strength; being able to look at your hand and knowing if you're going to go off or not.

[GreenOne]

I checked the math on this, and I am 100% sure that you spent way too much time figuring this out, and another 73% sure that you need to beer bong a 40 oz. of Old E and then hold your breath als long as you can, just to make sure you are still alive. Math is funny. So many squiggles and crazy symbols, and it all ends up useless when you are face to face with the girl of your dreams. Unless that girl is Leelee Sobiesky, she really likes the nerdy guys.

Well, belcher is a deck based on math. The purpose in building the deck is to have the highest probability of hitting the combo + the right amount of mana in your opening grip. So, if you don't want take math into account you'll be probably better with another deck.

Also. Stop flaming please.

EDIT: oh, and next time you should try to explain your thoughts too. It really works when you're communicating wit other persons.

[RockOfTheFormat]

Agreed, but with SoTV you run a 1/7 that you will kill yourself at best, so I preffer not to use it. Adding a cantrip or 2 in the form of Manamorphose is not always bad, because you can LG and then still have random rips off the top.

[kicks_422]

Just a question... Is there really a need to stock up the SB with silver bullets? I mean, most of the time you're Wishing for EtW anyway. Maybe a couple wouldn't hurt, but loading it with cards which you probably won't be able to cast or have the time to do so seems a bit off.

For example, this is my SB (RG build):
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach

Any pros and cons in running an actual SB over a typical Wish board?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Just a question... Is there really a need to stock up the SB with silver bullets? I mean, most of the time you're Wishing for EtW anyway. Maybe a couple wouldn't hurt, but loading it with cards which you probably won't be able to cast or have the time to do so seems a bit off.

For example, this is my SB (RG build):
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach

Any pros and cons in running an actual SB over a typical Wish board?

YES, finally discussion about this deck that I want to partake in. OK, this sideboard pertains ONLY to decks that run Bayou and Dark Rituals/Cabal Rituals in them. This SB has worked for me in the past and I think I have posted it before but I really don't want to look back in the thread. Here is the SB I run for Belcher:

1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
4x Tombstalker
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

Those wish targets are the cards that I think have to be in the deck with the exception of DReturns. Returns was won me a lot of games with no hand, I see why people don't run it because you have to have LED in play but I personally love having the card. Pyroclasm has to be there as well because it can help you out of a lot of tight jams and also in the combo mirror if your opponent is dumb enough to go for the EtW kill .... you have a good answer if need be. Reverent Silence can be Simplify but I just prefer Silence cause it's free and that 6 life is generally not an issue.

For the good stuff. IMOP the Red Blast plan has never been effective against control otherwise this deck would be more widely played. I hate the Blast plan and have never won more than 2 matches running it. Discard is just better IMOP. I ran a similar SB in SI and while SI is a totally different deck they are both insanely fast combo decks and I decided to try the SB out in Belcher. To my suprise it worked wonders and I kept using it and it is a LOT more effective against control. Here is how I boarded with this deck against Counter-control/Stiflestuff.dec:
-4 Burning Wish
-4 LED
-2 Seething Song
-1 Tinder Wall
+4 Tombstalker
+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Empty the Warrens

I realize that this is a radical plan but it maximizes your chances of having a good early game plan as well as a decent late game plan against countertrash.dec. I decided to cut Burning Wish cause all it does is draw counters and LED is next to useless with this plan and the other 3x are up to you, I usually take out Seeting Song cause it gets me in the greatest troubles if its countered however it is nice having 2 if need be and the other card could be whatever but since Tinder Wall has the least boost with worst casting cost I cut 1. I love this SB and would recommend to anyone to test it out. It works quite well. Thoughts?

Also, a big thank you to Peter Rotten for banning RockOfTheFormat.

[badjuju]

Just a question... Is there really a need to stock up the SB with silver bullets? I mean, most of the time you're Wishing for EtW anyway. Maybe a couple wouldn't hurt, but loading it with cards which you probably won't be able to cast or have the time to do so seems a bit off.

For example, this is my SB (RG build):
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach

Any pros and cons in running an actual SB over a typical Wish board?

In all honesty, my testing has shown that a SB with Wish targets comes in handy...some of the times. It's happened enough that I needed a Goblin War Strike or a Shattering Spree or a Diminishing Returns, to warrant the board spaces...although many times it can be overkill (ie. going for Tendrils kill). Most of the time, however, nothing will stop you from a swift victory. If you need to wish for something to remove an obstacle, chances are you're already fighting a downhill battle.

I'm still up in the air about it.

[badjuju]

Sorry for double post, but this one is a completely different topic:

I've been wanting to update my list (I've been out of the Legacy loop for a few months), and upon my return I was pretty surprised at the new lists. I'll go ahead and copypaste some of them here, but here are some things I've noticed:

- Infernal Tutor (and Spoils): are seeing lots of play. I don't know what incited this, but you can't really argue against its inclusion either. I've tested this card before (Infernal Tutor), and the only thing I can say is that it's solid, but there are a lot of times where you want it to be the last card in your hand but you've got like two win conditions or something and can't make the best of it. Otherwise, it's still great in the deck.

- Xantid Swarm in SB: seems to have taken a staple slot in sideboards. In retrospect, Swarm is a great answer to blue-based decks that I've overlooked. I whole-heartedly agree with its inclusion.

- Manamorphose debate (aka what card is less shitty): people are making weird cuts and additions between Manamorphose, Wild Cantor, Desperate Ritual, Street Wraith, and Seething Song. I always thought that you'd want Desperate Ritual for the +1 spell (isn't that the point of the deck?), but our top 8 Gencon list cut Desperate Ritual in favor of Manamorphose as well as Infernal Tutor over Wild Cantor. Greedy plays!

The more I goldfish the deck and the more I playtest it against various decks, the more I can find case and argue for every single card that's been mentioned in here. It really all depends on the situation at hand and how good your draws are. As far as goldfishing goes, no particular deck ever comes out on top (although I've had a share of Bayou flops with R/G/B - though the Dark Ritual has made some explosive turn 1s that RG can't always make), which leads me to believe that everything branching out from the core of the deck becomes absolute preference. Optimizing the list means running all the important stuff, and everything beyond that point is up to what you're more comfortable with, how risky you want to play, and what your metagame is like. The variety in these placing belcher lists is testament. It's more about knowing your odds, matchups, math, and having those lucky draws than it is your decklist imo - because every list is viable; it's just mana, kill, and ways to find mana and kill lol.

#Belcher
#Matthew Elias
#Gencon Legacy 2008
#3rd Place
#notes: runs Infernal Tutor, Manamorphose, and 1 Plunge. Xantid Swarm in the board.

Mainboard:
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
3 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Plunge into Darkness
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cave-In
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize
4 Xantid Swarm

#Ritual Belcher
#Tobias Demmer
#Isherlohn Legacy 07/08/08
#4th place of 56
#notes: this is Nightmare's list with Cantor/Manamorphose sans Seething Song. I like this list a lot, since it only runs 1 Taiga (maximizing belcher) and is still able to support Dark Ritual. However, the deck also lacks the punch without Cabal Ritual or Seething Song.

Mainboard:
1 Taiga
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wild Cantor
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Simplify
1 Goblin War Strike

#Dark Belcher
#Christian Freiberger
#Legacy Manheim 06/08
#1st place of 21
#notes: Listed for emphasis on use of Infernal Tutor and Xantid Swarm.

Mainboard:
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Sideboard:
1 Duress
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm

#RG Belcher
#Nagamune Masaki
#Ancient Memory Convention 35th
#4th place of 53
#notes: okay it's a Japanese list. This guy had 4 blue decks and a discard deck in the top 8...hence the warped list haha.

Mainboard:
2 Taiga
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Defense Grid
4 Desperate Ritual

Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Goblin Welder
3 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
2 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin Grenade
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Duress
3 Pithing Needle


#Dark Belcher
#Georg Seydel
#Iserlohn Legacy June 2008
#2nd place of 69 (lost to Faeries)
#note: /salute pulp_fiction. This list is proof that Spoils still works. But then again, he's so oldschool he even puts one Rite in his board which has been pretty meh for me in previous testing.

Mainboard:
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Seething Song
4 Land Grant

Sideboard:
1 Rite of Flame
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Thoughtseize
1 Rough / Tumble
1 Deathmark
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree

#Dark Belcher
#Michael Keller
#Hadley March 2008
#2nd place of 40
#notes: our very own A_Legend. Same freakin list he's been running since the stone age. Theory? Why change something that ain't broke.

Mainboard:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Wild Cantor
4 Seething Song
4 Land Grant
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Chrome Mox
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Deathmark
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree

[CopperLeaf]

Cabal Therapy may have a place in the board for the /b builds. Especially when going for the EtW kill, it may be usefull to strip two cards that want to kill your horde of dudes.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Cabal Therapy is just alright. Generally against something where Cabal Therapy would be played after you have resolved EtW you are most likely going to win anyway. It would be nice to make a bunch of dudes them flashback Therapy naming EE or Pyroslasm, Echoing Truth, etc. but generally it isn't needed. It is the nature of running a combo deck, you don't play defensive cards because you should not play defense in a combo deck, its all about offense and winning the game as fast as you can.

I wanted Manamorphose to work so bad but it just can't. It may work for some people but to me it adds to many inconsistencies to the deck. I was testing it and it seemed like every time I was counting my mana I was 1x short and if Manamorphose was DRitual, CRitual, Tinder Wall, etc I would win that turn. And there will be times when casting Manamorphose when you need a mana source that you draw a win con off of it and thus can't combo. Manamorphose adds to many "ifs" to the deck and it also really sucks in any opening hand after you mulligan to 6 or lower. If you can make it work, go for it, but I just think the card is terrible in the deck.

As far as Spoils of the Vault goes, I am glad it is starting to catch on. It is a fantastic card and works well in Belcher, just imagine how good Belcher would be if Demonic Consultation was legal!!! This is like that except that it kills you on occassion. I used to play a lot of storm combo (then Thresh began to dominate my meta) and I have no idea why Infernal Tutor would be played in Belcher. I would rather run Plunge into Darkness personally but Infernal Tutor just seems to put more emphasis and reliance on LED. Although I love those hands where you go all-in with BWish on the stack busting LED but on the other side LED isn't needed to power out BWish just seething song and a RoF or something. Infernal Tutor adds a whole other complication to the deck that I personally think it doesn't need, it is a terrible tutor and for a deck like Belcher and I think it wastes to many resources. Especially because there are times in Belcher when you can't empty out you hand thus making Infernal even worse. If it works ... play it, but I think Infernal Tutor just adds to many problems to a deck that functions just fine.

[badjuju]

Cabal Therapy is just alright. Generally against something where Cabal Therapy would be played after you have resolved EtW you are most likely going to win anyway. It would be nice to make a bunch of dudes them flashback Therapy naming EE or Pyroslasm, Echoing Truth, etc. but generally it isn't needed. It is the nature of running a combo deck, you don't play defensive cards because you should not play defense in a combo deck, its all about offense and winning the game as fast as you can.

I wanted Manamorphose to work so bad but it just can't. It may work for some people but to me it adds to many inconsistencies to the deck. I was testing it and it seemed like every time I was counting my mana I was 1x short and if Manamorphose was DRitual, CRitual, Tinder Wall, etc I would win that turn. And there will be times when casting Manamorphose when you need a mana source that you draw a win con off of it and thus can't combo. Manamorphose adds to many "ifs" to the deck and it also really sucks in any opening hand after you mulligan to 6 or lower. If you can make it work, go for it, but I just think the card is terrible in the deck.

As far as Spoils of the Vault goes, I am glad it is starting to catch on. It is a fantastic card and works well in Belcher, just imagine how good Belcher would be if Demonic Consultation was legal!!! This is like that except that it kills you on occassion. I used to play a lot of storm combo (then Thresh began to dominate my meta) and I have no idea why Infernal Tutor would be played in Belcher. I would rather run Plunge into Darkness personally but Infernal Tutor just seems to put more emphasis and reliance on LED. Although I love those hands where you go all-in with BWish on the stack busting LED but on the other side LED isn't needed to power out BWish just seething song and a RoF or something. Infernal Tutor adds a whole other complication to the deck that I personally think it doesn't need, it is a terrible tutor and for a deck like Belcher and I think it wastes to many resources. Especially because there are times in Belcher when you can't empty out you hand thus making Infernal even worse. If it works ... play it, but I think Infernal Tutor just adds to many problems to a deck that functions just fine.

I'm going to have to agree with you on some points regarding Infernal Tutor. A lot of times it doesn't really help my hand at all. The main synergy is obviously with LED, and as often as that happens (which is more than you may think), it's more often in the "meh" section rather than "omg that Infernal Tutor just won me the game!". There are very specific situations where Infernal Tutor is amazing, and more situations where it is less than mediocre.

As for Spoils: I don't know if the deck necessarily *needs* the card more than it *wants* it. The random deaths are what has steered me away from the card, and don't get me wrong, testing has shown that I don't die often from it, but I have and there still is that chance of happening at a more important time. Still, I can't argue that the card is very, very strong when it does work (and much more flexible than Infernal Tutor).

[RoddyVR]

Now that i have all the cards i need to build this deck, i need to figure out the list i should use.
In putting together a list, i came upon a question i hope you guys can answer for me. I'm sorry if its already in this thread somewhere, i tried finding it, but as you can immagine searching one "lion's eye diamond" in this thread pulls up prety much every list.

Why does everyone play Lion's Eye as a 4 of, even in decks without black tutors.
As far as i can tell, the only time it actualy works is if you have either a charbelcher (use diamond to activate) or a burning wish (actiave in response to wish).
In all other cases, your Lion's eye, is just a +1storm count. You cant use it because it would dump your whole hand and you've got no use for the mana.

So why run a 4 of that is only usable if you have one of 8 cards in your hand also. I would think that in this case, cutting a or two diamond for another tutor (infernal probably) would make for atleast a more likely use for the diamond, and less likely that you end up with a diamond you cant use.

Or am i just completely missing something here?

Also, i'm going to try goldfishing a few different variants of this deck (have a lot of time on the train to kill), and would like to know about what sort of goldfish is a "good one". Meaning should i be counting only the number of turn 1 wins (including 10+tokens?) or are turn 2 wins still wins? From a goldfish perspective, what are the general benchmarks for a good build vs something that is worse then average.

[badjuju]

Now that i have all the cards i need to build this deck, i need to figure out the list i should use.
In putting together a list, i came upon a question i hope you guys can answer for me. I'm sorry if its already in this thread somewhere, i tried finding it, but as you can immagine searching one "lion's eye diamond" in this thread pulls up prety much every list.

Why does everyone play Lion's Eye as a 4 of, even in decks without black tutors.
As far as i can tell, the only time it actualy works is if you have either a charbelcher (use diamond to activate) or a burning wish (actiave in response to wish).
In all other cases, your Lion's eye, is just a +1storm count. You cant use it because it would dump your whole hand and you've got no use for the mana.

So why run a 4 of that is only usable if you have one of 8 cards in your hand also. I would think that in this case, cutting a or two diamond for another tutor (infernal probably) would make for atleast a more likely use for the diamond, and less likely that you end up with a diamond you cant use.

Or am i just completely missing something here?

Also, i'm going to try goldfishing a few different variants of this deck (have a lot of time on the train to kill), and would like to know about what sort of goldfish is a "good one". Meaning should i be counting only the number of turn 1 wins (including 10+tokens?) or are turn 2 wins still wins? From a goldfish perspective, what are the general benchmarks for a good build vs something that is worse then average.

-Lion's Eye Diamond: notice how you just listed 8 of your 11 win conditions that would work great with LED. Remember that the deck is just mana and kill, and LED does what it does best in here. I am almost never sad to see it in my hand. If you don't see its power, you have to look at it from a different perspective. Produce 4 mana, drop a belcher, and you won't have to worry about producing the extra 3 for the activation because LED handles it. Produce 3 mana, play Burning Wish, and crack that LED in response for the warrens. It's like cheating. Any other black tutors just make the card even more absurd.

-As for goldfishing, anything that leads to a turn 1 or 2 kill is generally considered good. Also, it would be a good idea to keep count of mulligans and how they affect your win ratio. Learning what hands to keep goes a long way with this deck. Once you've goldfished the deck enough you'll begin to recognize a functioning versus non-functioning hand with a mere glance. You'll visualize most spells as +1 mana, +2 mana, and win condition - it's just simple math from there.

-I don't think there's any perfect OPTIMAL build, but if you want the most optimal goldfishing (ie you're never, ever going to face against any sort of disruption or hinderance to your game plan), I'd say a variant packing the most punch (meaning you're including Seething Song and probably Dark Ritual) to improve your chances of going off turn 1. Others may argue that 1 Taiga builds prove more consistency on the belcher part of the deck, while others observe that having both Taiga and Bayou helps the deck in games where you don't instantaneously win. Either way, having 2 lands hurts your chances to win with the deck, as does using tutors like Spoils of the Vault. It all depends how risky you want to play, because cards like Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault are both powerful, but they come with a price.

[BreathWeapon]

I'd suggest a SB with 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus of the Moon, game 2 when the opponent mulligans into Force of Will, he'll counter the acceleration and you'll go into a top deck war, at which point having 3cc, non-Storm "threats" lets you really pressure him.

Just dropping a Blood Moon is GG so often, and they can't afford to keep hands on Stifle for game 3, so it's a really effective strategy.

[caiomarcos]

-I don't think there's any perfect OPTIMAL build, but if you want the most optimal goldfishing (ie you're never, ever going to face against any sort of disruption or hinderance to your game plan), I'd say a variant packing the most punch (meaning you're including Seething Song and probably Dark Ritual) to improve your chances of going off turn 1. Others may argue that 1 Taiga builds prove more consistency on the belcher part of the deck, while others observe that having both Taiga and Bayou helps the deck in games where you don't instantaneously win. Either way, having 2 lands hurts your chances to win with the deck, as does using tutors like Spoils of the Vault. It all depends how risky you want to play, because cards like Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault are both powerful, but they come with a price.

I've played for a while and still can't decide - the awesomeness of Ritual and Spoils or the suckyness of flipping a Bayou.

[badjuju]

I've played for a while and still can't decide - the awesomeness of Ritual and Spoils or the suckyness of flipping a Bayou.

I'm still not sure either. For the most part, I don't flip Bayou...but it happens often enough that it might become troublesome. I'm currently running the Manamorphose version with a single Taiga and 8 ways to generate black. It's okay, but as other people have complained, sometimes you're short a +1 for the kill.

@BreathWeapon

Who were you addressing? lol. The Magus build is kinda old, though I'm not sure why he got dropped cause moon effects are owning with Dragon Stompy.

[BreathWeapon]

Just a random thought addressing the SB, I've been running Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon in either the MD or the SB for awhile now and having good results, and I was curious what other people thought about an "8 Moon Plan" instead of an "8 Blast Plan."

[caiomarcos]

I'm still not sure either. For the most part, I don't flip Bayou...but it happens often enough that it might become troublesome. I'm currently running the Manamorphose version with a single Taiga and 8 ways to generate black. It's okay, but as other people have complained, sometimes you're short a +1 for the kill.


Thinking of it right now, both builds probably give you the same amount of win/lose situations. The black build wins on the back of Ritual and tutors, and lose with the extremely disappointing Bayou on Belcher. The 1 Land build wins more often on Belcher but might have losing hands that could be winning ones if Rituals and such were on deck.

If that's is true (and it seems to be, because this discussion is going on for such a long time and no real veredict is out), I rather not lose to a Bayou, because it pisses me off big time.

So, for now, no Bayou, thanks.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I tried 1 land Belcher but I hated not having the second land in the deck. I have play the R/G versions and just totally hate the builds. I tried 1 land RGb with Manamorphose and hated that even more. Manamorphose just really sucks in the deck, because it doesn't add mana and its cantrip effect will occassionally cantrip into yet another wincon keeping you from getting to mana # 4. Manamorphose just adds to many ifs to the deck. As far as Bayou goes, you don't flip it that much and when you cast Land grant just fetch it everytime and drop Tinder Wall :) I know its not that simple but just go for Bayou nearly everytime you cast LG. I have found while playing 1 land Belcher I usually draw my 1x land and LG or double LG which is just to pointless. So for now I will keep Bayou in, it is also very nice to have land #2 against Stompy variants or Stax.

[Rush]

Is the general consensus that Living Wish and Goblin Welders are no longer good tech for the deck? The last truly competitive list I saw ran both, which is why it was competitive actually.

[badjuju]

Is the general consensus that Living Wish and Goblin Welders are no longer good tech for the deck? The last truly competitive list I saw ran both, which is why it was competitive actually.

I believe welder depends on your meta. The Japanese still run him almost religiously.

Also, where did you find that list? I don't think any lists from this summer's tournaments had Living Wish.

[Rush]

Well, I hadn't actually seen a list in awhile, but most of the one's I'm seeing now do not run them. It's kind of odd in my opinion. They are fantastic cards for the deck.

[DeathwingZERO]

Welder is a terrible choice if there's any instant speed cheap removal in your metagame. The reliance on his abilities becomes too central for the deck concept that people will keep bad hands that tend to die to StP or Pithing Needle, when they should be looking for hands that will drop a Belcher or Wish -> Victory condition X (Tendrils or EtW). The only time Welder really shines is when you've gotten crucial spells countered anyways, and that battle typically runs the risk of them packing removal in addition to counters.

And I still live (and die) by Spoils. Statistics be damned, I'll take my supposed 1 in 10 loss to speed up the deck to packing turn 1 kills more often. It's also the cheapest and most effective way to dig for anything, being a core black and instant speed. The deck is nothing but a suicide run to pop a nuke on your opponents face anyways, where's the victory dance if there wasn't a risk involved?

Also, I'm very tempted to look into that Tombstalker tech. Seems pretty good when a majority of the spells go to the yard, and getting rid of them for a 5/5 flyer and a smaller Goyf on the other side of the table seems pretty good. I'll look into that next time I work on this build.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Neither of those are really needed but it depends on your meta. Welder is still fantastic in this deck against counter-based control strategies. I remember a while ago someone slaughtered a nearly all Thresh top 8 with R/G Belcher with 2x Pyroblast, 2x REB, and 2x Magus of the Moon in the main. The list was never really heard from again. No one developed it any further, I built it but found it inconsistent. Truthfully as we try and develop Belcher further people just tend to revert to the proven lists because they really are the best. The only debates about Belcher that really matters today is Bayou inclusion, Spoils inclusion, and Manamorphose inclusion. This is one of my original lists with a heavily modified SB that I always run when I want to play Belcher. I swear by the list and SB, I have done a top 4 split with this build quite a few times:

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

Sideboard

1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker

EDIT: Deathwing just posted before I got a chance to see what he said. I also support Spoils to the end in Belcher. The only better card for Belcher would be Demonic Consultation, but since that can't be run, Spoils it is.

[badjuju]

@Pulp Fiction

I tried to push the development of the list a while back. Once again, that kind of deck truly depends on what forecasting you have of your metagame. I really, really like the Magus tech, so as BreathWeapon suggested I might just move it to the SB. I'm not sure if I'd want Bloodmoon in there too, just because Bloodmoon doesn't actually swing.

Here's the list I had:

// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [GP] Wild Cantor
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
2 [FUT] Magus of the Moon

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
2 [IA] Pyroblast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 2 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [PT] Pyroclasm
SB: 2 [R] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [6E] Diminishing Returns
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In

Might be a bit out-dated, but worked for me. Note that the other guy's list had 2 Taigas. I could definitely see running 2 Taigas in a version like this, especially if you're expecting a lot of blue-based opponents. It seems like there are still enough multi-color decks running around that Magus would be good, but I'm not sure about the 4x blasts main. I've never been a big fan of them. Anyone else want to chime in on the list?


EDIT:
On another note, I also play the exact same version of Belcher as you, Pulp, except I've been using Infernal Tutors instead of Spoils. I'll admit that they're a lot weaker, but that isn't the problem I have with the deck. Without Wild Cantors, I have trouble finding ways to produce black consistently...and that seems to be the only bane of that decklist.

[monkeyfeelers]

here in the middle of nowhere (Montana)
We have had a great deal of success with a very similar build to the one posted above. However we came to the conclusion that the deck had reached the critical mass of mana acceleration and storm enablers so we decided to raise the threat count up so that we could always do something on turn one or two

threats
4 charbelcher
4 burning wish
3 Empty the warrens
4 Blood moon

We opted for bloodmoon over magus since swords to plowshares is relatively common and easy to cast even under magus. A similar problem arises with the prevalence of korosan grip on bloodmoon but that is generally two turns slower. Turn one bloodmoon often buys you plenty of time to win, where magus of the moon can win all by himself but I see no reason why this deck should not win faster than attacking for 2 a turn.

To make room for the bloodmoons we cut what we found to be the weakest mana/storm producers- Wild Cantor. I never really liked this card as it never produces a serious affect right now, which is the whole point of the deck.

On a final note a lot of people are splitting their blasts two and two. I see no reason for this aside from meddling mage and cabal therapy both of which have much better targets against you than your blasts. Therefor I suggest 4 pyroblast as you can cast them on non blue targets for storm while comboing.

// Lands
1 [R] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 BloodMoon

// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [IA] Pyroblast

The side board changes depending on the expected meta game but should include
1 Empty the warrens
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal tutor
1 Shattering spree
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing returns
1 Tendrils of agony(never seen this used)
1 Goblin war strike
1 cave-in/pyroclasm(or both)
The rest of the slots should be dedicated to whatever decks you fear most in your meta.

[badjuju]

We opted for bloodmoon over magus since swords to plowshares is relatively common and easy to cast even under magus. A similar problem arises with the prevalence of korosan grip on bloodmoon but that is generally two turns slower. Turn one bloodmoon often buys you plenty of time to win, where magus of the moon can win all by himself but I see no reason why this deck should not win faster than attacking for 2 a turn.

To make room for the bloodmoons we cut what we found to be the weakest mana/storm producers- Wild Cantor. I never really liked this card as it never produces a serious affect right now, which is the whole point of the deck.

On a final note a lot of people are splitting their blasts two and two. I see no reason for this aside from meddling mage and cabal therapy both of which have much better targets against you than your blasts. Therefor I suggest 4 pyroblast as you can cast them on non blue targets for storm while comboing.

The side board changes depending on the expected meta game but should include
1 Empty the warrens
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal tutor
1 Shattering spree
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach
1 Diminishing returns
1 Tendrils of agony(never seen this used)
1 Goblin war strike
1 cave-in/pyroclasm(or both)
The rest of the slots should be dedicated to whatever decks you fear most in your meta.

Your reasons for the decklist are sound.

-I too found it kinda dumb that people ran splits. I had already changed my list to 4 Pyroblast like 5 minutes after I posted my old list. Nobody is going to name REB on you, and the +1 storm count is relevant enough to just go ahead and run Pyroblast.

-In a lot of ways I guess you are right about Bloodmoon (the fact that cheap removal can't handle it). The thing is, if you resolve a Magus of the Moon against most decks that pack StP, they probably won't be able to cast it anyway. (Don't quote me on that, I understand there are decks like Angel Stompy and whatever, but against those you should just be able to combo off. At the same time, however, I have no idea how many basic lands people are running nowadays just to fight against Dragon Stompy.)

-4 Bloodmoon is kinda heavy. Have you ever found it to be clunky? Even running the 4 Belcher / 4 Wish / 3 Warrens / 3 Infernal Tutor I've found that I often have 2 win conditions in my hand. In some ways that's good, in some bad, but unless your metagame is infested with nonbasics, running 4 might be a bit too many?

-Wild Cantor is pretty much just filler in R/G lists. Your conclusion to cut it is fine.

[kilukru]

Quick question, is this deck playable without the Chrome mox?

If not counting the mox's im about 5$ close to building this deck but i dont have the cashflow to get them? What do you think?

[badjuju]

Quick question, is this deck playable without the Chrome mox?

If not counting the mox's im about 5$ close to building this deck but i dont have the cashflow to get them? What do you think?

No, not really. I mean you could try, but really the deck needs all the +1 mana sources available in the format. Chrome Mox is a +1 for 0, or in other words, an initial mana source (to start your Dark Ritual/Rite of Flame/Tinder Wall/etc.).

[Pulp_Fiction]

This is one of the many cards in the deck for which there is no substitute. The rituals are all interchangeable based on preference but Chrome Mox is Vital. You can get away with running 3, A Legend only ran 3 and his list was quite successful. But they are so vital against something like Dragon Stompy its insane. After SB against something like Thresh you will be very glad you have a permanent mana source in play. Of course you can play the deck without them, there is no argument there, throw in Wild Cantor or Manamorpose or Serum Powder or something in its place but don't expect the deck to perform very well pre-SB and post SB the deck will encounter some serious problems.

[yawg07]

Hey, just thought I'd post it here.
On the MTG Salvation Tourney #7
I went 5-1 and made it to Top 8 (then lost to Swan Thresh) playing Belcher.


// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [IA] Tinder Wall

// Spells
3 [SHM] Manamorphose
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [B] Dark Ritual

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [DS] Oxidize
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [IA] Pyroblast

[Pulp_Fiction]

How did you like the Xantid Swarms in the deck? Everytime I decide to put the Swarm in the SB they just get StPed when they are actually played. Do you like them more than additional hand disruption/blasts?

[Deirex]

I realize this is my first post here so it won't suprise me if I don't get much attention with this post, but I just thought I´d post my list here which has been doing well recently.


CREATURES (16)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith

SORCERIES (15)
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

INSTANTS (12)
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

ARTIFACTS (16)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

LANDS (1)
1 Taiga

SIDEBOARD
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pact of Negation
3 Shattering Spree
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Empty the Warrens

As you can see it´s kind of a Balls to the wall version of the deck. I realize how bad 4 maindeck Manamorphose and 4 Street Wraith might be but the aggro decks in my meta regularly kill you turn 3 so I´ve decided to try and go of as early as possible. Not that Aggro is usually a problem but still speed is what this deck is about imo.


I´ve only participated in 2 serious tournaments with this deck and the results have been good so far.

I´ve also been in a couple of small tournaments with 10-18 ppl but they´re too small to take serious and people usually just bring jank decks for them anyway.

4-1 At Wizard-Games Champion of Merfolk tournament 08 (24 ppl) 4th place. (played 2-lands with 3 Storm Entity maindeck).
Won against: MonoW-Stax, Pox, BG-Survival, UW-ScepterChant.
Lost to: Landstill.

4-1 At Alcon-08 (30+ ppl) 5th place.
Won against: Keeper(landstill), Goblins, BG-Loam, Landstill.
Lost to: Landstill.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Alright, this is interesting as hell, crazy new take on Belcher. I was looking around on deckcheck and found this:
creature [15]

3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Street Wraith

4 Tinder Wall

instant [19]

4 Dark Ritual

3 Desperate Ritual

4 Manamorphose

4 Seething Song

4 Spoils of the Vault

sorcery [12]

4 Empty the Warrens

4 Land Grant

4 Rite of Flame

artifact [12]

4 Goblin Charbelcher

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Lotus Petal

land [2]

1 Bayou

1 Taiga

This is actually not a new take at all, its more an old take, it looks like one of the original builds of the deck only updated. This list looks like it has potential. Get rid of Manamorphose for Chrome Mox and cut Street Wraith for 1x ESG, 1x Desperate Ritual, and 2x Infernal Tutor and this might be an awesome fit in the current meta. You can find a link to the deck here:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22399

Maybe this deserves a little developing, it looks very promising. Burning Wish was always my least favorite card in the deck cause I hate busting that LED and asking if they have FoW. This opens up a lot of new SB possibilities as well since you don't run wish targets and the blast plan is not so effective against blue otherwise this deck would be more widely played. He ran Ancient Grudge in the SB which is a very interesting call, possibly better than Spree in this build? I have no idea but it looks very interesting to say the least. Maybe it is finally time to start sticking Cabal Ritual into Belcher?

[Shawon]

I second cutting Street Wraith. Not good with Spoils at all. It also makes mulligans more confusing.


Maybe it is finally time to start sticking Cabal Ritual into Belcher?

As a former Belcher player, I never liked Cabal Ritual. You realistically never get Threshold. Red rituals (song too) are better.

[SuperBean]

I've been playing quite a bit of Belcher recently, and here's my list I've been using.

Creatures:

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
3 Wild Cantor

Instants:

4 Dark Ritual
4 Seething Song
3 Manamorphose


Sorceries:

4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
2 Infernal Tutor

Artifacts:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Land:

1 Bayou

Sideboard:

3 Pyroblast
3 Vexing Shusher
3 Shattering Spree
2 Pithing Needle
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Grapeshot

--------------------------------

The first thing that you will notice about this version is that it plays NO maindeck protection whatsoever. It is very available in the board with 3x Pyroblasts and 3x Vexing Shushers.

Aside from that I've done quite well in the tournaments that I've played it in. The most recent time I played against the following: Dragon Stompy, Poxless-Pox (Splashed green for pernicious deed), Another Black-White Poxless-Pox, and eventually lost to White-Black Poxless-Pox in the Final 4 due to massive discard and vindicating my Belcher then following that up with a Tombstalker.

So I ended up going 4 Wins - 0 Ties - and 1 Loss

[GreenOne]

The first thing that you will notice about this version is that it plays NO maindeck protection whatsoever.
The first thing I notice is that it plays no taiga maindeck. Is that bayou really needed for those 6 black spells in the deck?

[Dark_Cynic87]

Well, 4x of those black spells are D. Rits. If you look, there's 8x Spirit Guides, as well as Tinder Walls and Wild Cantors, and Petals. All of these are capable of starting out your mana chain if you have red accel., but only the cantors and petals can start off a black accel chain. I think that's the basis of having a Bayou as opposed to a Taiga. Chrome mox isn't all that handy in this situation since there are in fact only 10 black spells.

Pce,

--DC

[bowvamp]

OK, so although this may be my first post, do not disregard it... (I've been playing competitively since the end of scourge)

I have recently started playing Legacy Belcher ( Combo has always been my archetype) and have realized that if the opponent disrupts your plan in any way, you are often relying on the TD. This is not good. Also, there is a clear hit and miss on the opening hand and while this isn't bad, it can make you mull to levels that you would like to avoid. From these two oft-discovered discoveries, I concluded that Belcher needs a one card drawing power house.

Sylvan Library...

With this one card a well tuned belcher starts to become more resilient while still not loosing it's edge. Belcher still retains it's clear bombshell hands, but loses the need to TD quite so often... please tell me what you think

oh yeah... the list I've been running...
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
2 Taiga
4 Chrome Mox
3 Burning Wish
4 Tinder Wall
4 Street Wraith
4 Sylvan Library

it's actually not tuned at all... just the pure and simple belcher...
I don't have a SB yet...

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm still honestly curious why people are opting to take black out of the equation completely, when combining the fact that it's the fastest accelerations, best (re: only reliable) tutor effects, and disruption in the form of Thoughtseize or Duress all in one.

It only takes one Bayou and swapping out the Tinder Wall, cutting back on Seething Song (slow and inconsistent as hell in opening hands), and the choice of running full sets of storm wins or Burning Wish to make up slots for Dark Ritual, Spoils, and Cabal Ritual (which I'd probably still run 2-3), or protection.

As for Street Wraith, I like it, but in order to maximize it's draw without risking losing to Spoils I'd suggest cutting Spoils back to a 2 or 3 of, and using Infernal and Street Wraith as dig instead. I really don't like Infernal much either, as the deck rarely runs out of cards without LED discard, so maybe 4 Wraith, 3 Infernal, 2-3 Spoils. Tweaking the list might be dependent on how often you think you're actually going to kill yourself.

I'll take a list I was working on a while back and post it on here, so people interested in the BRG list can see what I was working with. Playing against mono red Goblins, I was actually racing them pretty much every game, short of bad draws on Manamorphose and one or two games where Spoils put me in SGC's fling range. I say if it can beat the fastest aggro deck in the format (since you have little ways of disrupting their attacks), it's got a good start for tuning.

[kicks_422]

Beating Goblins with Belcher should be a given. That's not really a good measuring stick for any Belcher build.

[DeathwingZERO]

Beating Goblins with Belcher should be a given. That's not really a good measuring stick for any Belcher build.

On the play, they can kill you by turn 3. As far as I'm concerned, it's the epitome of what you want to race. If both are unhindered, and you aren't outpacing a mono-red list, you need to re-evaluate.

Much like you said, you should beat them. They are the fastest of aggro, you are combo. If you can't, work the list. If you can, start testing it against a real gauntlet you'd expect.

Typically, after determining it's got pretty much solid game against Goblins both pre and post board, I'll put it to the test against Thresh, Landstill, and any other decks I know should give it problems.

Combo decks are pretty much a coin toss, so I rarely play against storm and Ichorid. Usually whoever is first is going to have the upper hand, especially if there's disruption in either.

[kicks_422]

With a list that splashes black for more tutors, your aim should be Turn 1 or Turn 2 at the latest, especially up against an aggro deck without countermagic nor discard. Your Turn 1-2 wins should be much, much more frequent than the Turn 3 kills of Goblins anyway. Mulliganing is the most important skill that this deck utilizes, risky but that's the way the deck is constructed in the first place.

[bowvamp]

Hi everybody... I just want to address the issue about whether or not to splash black.
This issue goes on and on and on throughout the history of belcher but never seems to go unanswered.
The advantages as I see them:
RG=
8X useful spirit guides ESG doesn't only produce :1:
less confusing opening hands
no color troubles
more consistent belcher umm... belches?:confused:
more sac-mana (to play with your lands like cantor and tinder wall)
BRG=
more tutors
more mana
access to Ad-Nauseum and other black card draw... is this all?

oh yeah, I still don't have any progress happening with my Sylvan Belcher list...

[Pulp_Fiction]

Because Sylvan Library has no place in Belcher. You want to add something that adds consistency in a RG build splash black and play Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault. Otherwise just run the awful Street Wraith and/or Serum Powder. This deck is a "DUUUR" combo deck in that it doesn't rely on topdecks and require complicated thought processes about which lands to fetch out, figuring out if you have enough mana to Chant and combo out, complicated stacking of the deck, etc., it simply looks at its opening hand and asks "can I win?" This deck should not be in topdeck mode. Ever. It should be losing big or winning big, no inbetween (aside from race situations with 8ish Warrens tokens or a failed Belcher attempt). Sylvan Library does absolutely nothing in the main and is hideous in your opening hand, it takes up space and adds nothing to the combo turn. Belcher doesn't need setup cards. You want setup play DDFT or TES.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd have to agree with Pulp. You don't have the time or resources to use Library effectively, your turn two is the latest you want to go off. Any later, and you are opening up a can of worms on yourself. Everything in the format has a critical mass of turn 3, whether it be other combo decks, Thresh, etc playing out CounterTop or any control/aggro control having access to FoW, Daze, and another counter on the same turn, etc.

The deck's focus is to go off laughing at a FoW. This used to happen because of Welder, being able to get whatever you got countered back into play. Then it evolved into discard elements (mostly because StP was more common now), then people started maindecking Xantids. Personally, I toss in a couple of Duress (now would be Thoughtseize, all because StP is still common, and Xantid in my opinion is a turn too slow), and call it good. Aside from Spoils, you aren't taking damage anywhere in the first turn.

Also, having Manamorphose in the deck means you can still pack the 8 Spirit Guides, but I personally would only pack the red ones anyways. Having 8 deters from the storm count, which is necessary if you can't get to Belcher and have to go with EtW or Tendrils (another good reason for black). As far as the consistency of the Belch, Land Grant is obviously always going for Bayou first. Aside from that, hope you don't hit it on the way down.

Typically, as far as I've seen, BRG doesn't have mana inconsistencies. Cantor and Manamorphose can be cast off green or red, and Tinder Wall is taken out simply because it's unnecessary to force the deck to require green to get anywhere, as all green adds is Tinder Wall and Spirit Guide. There's really nothing else you need to worry about as far as mana fixing, unless you opt into the Tendrils kill in the SB, which requires 3BBR, as opposed to 4RR for EtW via Wish. Xantid from the SB (if you choose to play it) can even be cast off Chrome imprints of itself (or anything hybrid), or the land you fetch with Grant.

[badjuju]

lol people are still posting in this thread? As far as I know, the list is already pretty much optimized for both versions of the deck, RG and BRG. There's a few preference slots that you can toy around with, but otherwise there really isn't much room for experimenting. That's the result you get when you engineer a combo deck for optimum speed and ignore the rest. If a card doesn't directly help you speed out the combo asap, then it most likely doesn't have a place in the deck.

I think Belcher is a great place for a combo player to start in Legacy. However, if you seek to push your skill and use it to your advantage, Belcher has way too big of a random factor for any seasoned player. The frustration level will soon get the best of you (unless you're a really, really lucky guy lol).

[AcidFiend]

Firstly this is my first post on The Source - sweet forum! Anyways...

I've read this thread from start to finish, and in the last few pages there were a few comments about there being 'standard builds' (R/G & R/G/B), and some comments of card changes, though I didn't see many updated full decklists.

Based on comments by Pulp/DeathwingZERO I compiled the below list of what a R/B/g version minus ESG's might look like. If this was posted somewhere previously I apologise I missed it.

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

I've been testing it and it feels even more 'all-or-nothing' than the version I currently play (pure R/G). I feel I can Goldfish Turn 1/2 kills a lot more with access to Dark Ritual and Spoils. It also feels more robust in the sense of having discard there to bait out some Countermagic. However you occasionally die from tutors, though the way I figure it if you don't get the right cards you were destined to die anyways.

There is also a slight inconsistency on having both red and black sources to start casting your mana-producers, but I guess it can come down to mulliganing..

Keep this thread alive, I love this deck! While you can die from Spoils its really exciting to use - this list plays like an Extreme Sport! :tongue:

[Ozymandias]

You should probably have something like 4 Manamorphose in there, and strip Duress/Cabal Ritual out. You'll never get threshold quickly enough to matter, and you pretty much pack it to Force anyway.

Also, Wish is probably better than Spoils, because it a) can fetch answers to unforseen problems, b) won't kill you, and c) requires only red to go off.

Thoughtseize might very well be better as Pyroblast, because it can add to the storm count, and requires only red.

[AcidFiend]

You should probably have something like 4 Manamorphose in there, and strip Duress/Cabal Ritual out. You'll never get threshold quickly enough to matter, and you pretty much pack it to Force anyway.

Theres been discussion about manamorphose and how it doesnt give you any extra mana, only adds to storm count. Duress stays. Cabal could probably be swapped out, but you're not expecting to have threshold, it just adds storm+1 mana tho. Its probably the weakest card tho.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I really don't play this deck anymore, I think in terms of combo this deck just can't reliably fight through hate cards like B/U/g ANT and TES can. IMOP those are pretty much the best combo decks in the format currently. First off, Burning Wish is spectacular in the deck. But it does have its hits and misses. Against heavy control decks I actually side out Burning Wish unless I know they are playing Chalice or Trinisphere.

A little more than a year ago Belcher was hot shit since it could reliably go off turns 1-2 everytime but just packed it in to certain hate cards and was far superior (IMOP) to TES or almost any other combo deck at the time. This is certainly not the case today. Turn 1 Trinisphere just ruins this deck in every way. Also, Belcher has problems with just 1 hate card but dealing with numerous is a serious problem. Orim's Chant is also a serious problem. This deck is not built for the long run. You don't build up a hand and test the opponent's defenses slowly and look for openings then strike (and unlike about a year ago, today you reliably win); but rather the deck just explodes in the first few turns before the opponent is able to do anything.

If you want to play combo today, look up TES and U/B/g ANT (without Chant + KGrip). If you really want to play Belcher this is my final list that I used to run. It is IMOP the optimal version of Spoils Belcher to run:

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

Sideboard

1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker

If you want me to talk you through card choices and SB strategies I can, I always liked Belcher since it is simple and effective at what it does. But this deck is really like not even playing magic, you just goldfish it with someone sitting in front of you. However, with the printing of Ad Nauseam I think it has really put a dampening on Belcher since most combo decks can reliably go off on turns 1-3 which used to be why people played Belcher over slower setup combo decks like Iggy Pop and Solidarity.

[AcidFiend]

If you want me to talk you through card choices and SB strategies I can

Hey Pulp, can you show us with the above decklist what SB choices you'd make against:
-Dreadstill
-Threshold
-Ichorid

That'd be sweet.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Never SB anything against Dredge. Belcher is simply faster than they are. Aim to go off as early as possible or if things look shitty just try to keep a hand with Burning Wish or Tinder Wall. Tinder Wall removes their Bridges when u sacrifice it during their turn! But this matchup should not be to bad. Try to win with Warrens tokens since they most likely will bring in Pithing Needle for Belcher.

I SB the exact same against every blue-based deck that plays counterspells! This is what I do:

-4 Burning Wish (only good with LED)
-4 Seething Song (this thing gets countered u are fucked)
-3 Tinder Wall

+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize
+4 Tombstalker
+1 Empty the Warrens

Belcher is a glass cannon deck and will not handle the long game. Most people prefer the Red Blast plan but it does nothing. If it were any good this deck would be tier 1! Turn 2-4 Tombstalker is just a house against most control decks! Since StP comes out he is a very big suprise! I choose to cut Burning Wish since you have to go all-in with LED or shit tons or rituals and basically lose if Burning Wish is countered. You can moderately storm with 4x EtW in the deck, go for Tombstalker, or Belch them out, all within the first 1-3 turns backed up by hand disruption!

Against decks that run just Chant effects go:
-4 Tinder Wall
-2 Seething Song

+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize

Play this deck with caution though, honestly, there really isn't any reason to play this over TES, if you can build Belcher you already have all the expensive cards for combo: LED, Mox, and Burning Wish. All you have to do is invest in Orim's Chant or just play Duress in its place (sub-optimal but if money is a big issue it works). Good to see interest in this deck again, but its time has pretty much come and gone :(

[Tacosnape]

Belcher needs an alternate kill besides Empty the Warrens, which in the days of Stifles and Engineered Explosives and Pyroclasms galore really doesn't cut it.

The other problem Belcher faces is that Ad Nauseam was printed. Which instead of saying ":7:, win target game." says ":3::b::b:, win target game." Granted, Belcher will randomly fail to kill, and Ad Nauseam sucks if they stall long enough to drop your life total low, but for the most part, Ad Nauseam dropped the converted mana cost of a one-card win by 2. All while allowing a more resilient and consistent shell.

[AcidFiend]

Hehe thanks guys. I get the consensus from players and see the results and know this decks time has come, but I just wanted my build/strat for it to be optimal regardless.

I hoard decks, I rarely rip them up. I'll probably go on to create ANT/Dredge next from scratch, but I'm leaving my Belcher intact. I can pull it out occasionally against casual chumps to show em how to win on turn 1 hehe.

[GGoober]

In what kind of meta would Belcher steal wins?

Does it do well in a meta of Counterbalance Thresh? I know it does terrible against Stompy/Stax with 3Sphere. But I would like some opinions on a meta of Counterbalance and discard. Is Discard ever a problem for the deck?

I'm assuming aggro should be a cakewalk. Can Belcher race ANT in terms of speed?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yes Belcher is faster than ANT. That means it has a higher turn 1 win % chance. However it is still a question of who wins the die roll.

ANT runs disruption in form of 4 dures + 4 chant and is a bit slower. I think the MU is 40/60 for Ant.


Counterbalance is no problem for Belcher cuz it is just to slow. But most deck that run Cbalance also run Fow and Daze wich are more threatening.

Discard could be annoying cuz you couldnt mull as aggresivly as against other decks.

@Tacosnape:
Yeah i agree with you. I think ANT is just the better deck.

[hwtcharger07]

here is the belcher list I am currently running

1L gnarbelcher

Lands: 1
1 taiga

Creatures: 12
4 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
4 tinder wall

Spells: 31
4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 dark ritual
4 land grant
4 seething song
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
3 empty the warrens

artifacts: 16
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 goblin charbelcher

SB:
1x diminishing returns
1x empty the warrens
1x tendrils of agony
4x shattering spree
4x pyroblast
4x tombstalker

I think te maindeck here is pretty solid, manamorphose is needed, it is a must, it increases stormcount like nobodys buisness, fixes your mana, and draws you a card for free. Without manamorphose its near impossible to play dark ritual which speeds this deck up so much. I tied for first in a 20 man tournament with this last week (i IDed in the finals to GR vial gobs, we played out the games though i lost 2-1 from not drawing anything to help me go off). anyway this list is solid (minus the SB) and I will be taking it to 5k this weekend in philly. Mindbreak trap will probly ruin my day if i run into it, so i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed. anyway thoughs, comments, criticisms and suggestions would be very appreciated. Thanks.

[workingdude]

here is the belcher list I am currently running

1L gnarbelcher

Lands: 1
1 taiga

Creatures: 12
4 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
4 tinder wall

Spells: 31
4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 dark ritual
4 land grant
4 seething song
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
3 empty the warrens

artifacts: 16
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 goblin charbelcher

SB:
1x diminishing returns
1x empty the warrens
1x tendrils of agony
4x shattering spree
4x pyroblast
4x tombstalker

I think te maindeck here is pretty solid, manamorphose is needed, it is a must, it increases stormcount like nobodys buisness, fixes your mana, and draws you a card for free. Without manamorphose its near impossible to play dark ritual which speeds this deck up so much. I tied for first in a 20 man tournament with this last week (i IDed in the finals to GR vial gobs, we played out the games though i lost 2-1 from not drawing anything to help me go off). anyway this list is solid (minus the SB) and I will be taking it to 5k this weekend in philly. Mindbreak trap will probly ruin my day if i run into it, so i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed. anyway thoughs, comments, criticisms and suggestions would be very appreciated. Thanks.

I'm assuming this is against a FOW-deficient meta?

The main other problem I have is that this deck even loses to a lot of decks that run any type of sweeper either main board or sideboard. 7 of your 11 win cons have a 2 turn clock after you cast it. Plenty of time for a sweeper.

I've started turning against this deck.

Also 12 and 13 win-con lists are a percentage or so more consistent of having either 1 or 2 win cons in the opening hand. It helps if you opponent is a duress player too.

[sco0ter]

You probably want some answers for Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage.

[yankeedave]

I run a Deathmark in the SB to wish for. But I usually mulligan until I have a win-con and 4 mana in my hand, then, if I go for the Belcher kill, I lay it on the table and let them sweat it until I get 3 mana. If I have the EtW, then I just let it ride.

Force is an issue, but I have made a few MD changes to the list above, namely, I have dropped black and am running 3 Land Grant, 3 Seething Song, 3 Goblin Welder and 3 Pyroblast. I find the Welders and the blasts help save your ass from time to time and you can do funky tricks with Welder.

One of my faves is lay a Welder with a Belcher in hand and see if it sticks. If he lands, the go for the LED, if that sticks, drop another artifact and then crack LED for 3 mana, discarding your hand. Weld Belcher out using the other artifact, and win.

If Welder gets countered, then play with the confidence they have one less counter in hand. Your blasts will help push this thru!

Dave

[sunshine]

I'm somewhat partial to Ad Nauseam in Belcher lists with access to black mana. Might be worth considering.

[yankeedave]

That seems like a very dangerous proposition, as you have 7 cards with a CMC of 4 , 10-12 with a CMC of 3 and maybe 16 or so with a CMC of 2. So that's over half the deck with a 2+ cost, waaaay to high with Ad Nauseum, total suicide really!

Dave

[Hanni]

I was playing a Counterbalance control deck the other day (no Daze), and my opponent was playing Belcher with a black splash. He was racing my Counterbalances and the only games I won was 1st turn FoW starts, and he actually powered through a few of those.

We played about 20 games, and I'm rather fascinated with it. I've never had issues with combo before with my control deck, and I've beaten Belcher countless times in the past, but this guys turn 1 combo percentile was like 75%. The only games where he didn't combo off by turn 2 at the latest was games where I hit him with FoW, and even in a couple of those, he still went off on turn 2 and won. In 2 games I hit him with double FoW, and I won both of those games.

As far as I know, he didn't run any disruption maindeck.

The biggest notable mention was Spoils of the Vault, which he used to find either the accel he needed, or the win condition he needed. Rather ruthless.

He didn't cast Empty the Warrens once, so I'm not sure if it was present in his list or not. All of his wins came from Belcher itself.

Another interesting spell he played was Birds of Paradise, and I remember that distinctively because I've never seen Birds of Paradise in Belcher before. Birds of Paradise was a sick t2 enabler, though.

Something like this, maybe?

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

4 Bird's of Paradise
4 Tinder Wall
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Burning Wish

4 Charbelcher

Honestly, I cannot remember what all I saw and didn't see. His deck was pretty damn good, though. Anyone have any clue what I'm talking about here? lol...

I doubt I'm 100% accurate as to how his deck was built, so this list might be whack. Hmm...

[yankeedave]

I would be interested in seeing his list too, sounds brutal! That said, I get a high percentage of first turn wins by knowing when I can go off with judicial mulliganing.

I havent tried Spoils, but I have seen several lists with that card in it. Seems like a very solid way to grab your win-con. I would play EtW in the SB if this card was good enough. It enables you to have hands with Spoils and the ability to generate 8 mana, but no other win-con, and Spoils for the win!

I would also reckon that he was running Simian Spirit Guide. I wonder how reliable his first turn birds was cast?

If you know this guy, I would really be interested in seeing his list!

Dave

[Hanni]

He was just some random guy off MWS, but he was cool as hell.

The thing that got me was that he beat me more than I beat him. I ran a countermagic package of 4 Counterbalance, 4 Counterspell, and 4 Force of Will. I ran 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top as my (early) draw. The only times I beat him was with FoW in my opener, his turn 1 percentile was that crazy good.

The thing is, I had only 1 card (FoW) to really answer him, and otherwise he just smacked me around. Mulliganing for 1 specific card almost makes the matchup as bad as Ichorid for a blue-based control player (i.e mulliganing into Relic, etc).

Now of course, I didn't run Daze. FoW + Daze may likely screw him, I'm not sure. BoP seems like it helps out in the area of dodging Daze a little, but still. That's kinda sick if he can win t1 that often, t2 the latest (consistently), and only get beat by a t1 FoW/Daze, which he was still able to play through on a few occasions.

Spoils was his MVP. It helped guaruntee him a Belcher win everytime, which was so much more effective than an EtW would have been for him. That's kinda where BoP helped out I guess, by allowing him to Belcher ftw the following turn when the actual t1 win wasn't possible. Of course I didn't pack Needles SB, and he activated Belcher before my relevant artifact removal (4cc artifact) was able to be cast, so those t2 wins were essentially t1 wins anyway.

Spoils costing only B is nuts for a tutor, and the fact that it can grab ANY spell in the is so powerful. Grabbing anything means whatever missing piece you need to win, you get, whether that's anything from Dark Ritual, to LED, to Rite of Flame, to Belcher, wtfever.

I keep trying to recollect what he ran exactly, and I keep trying to logically mix around the numbers of each in my head. I'm still really up in the air, but I'm also trying to logically figure out on my own what would work best and with what numbers, too.

Another thing too, he rarely mulligan'd. Spoils must have been that good for him, or maybe BoP made it more stable, I have no friggin clue.

I know that a good mix of both red, green, and black spells is necessary for Chrome Mox, since all 3 colors are essential. The deck wants to be able to cast all 3 colors consistently.

I don't think I saw him cast much SSG/ESG, if any (I really can't remember).

I really wanna figure this out, build the deck, and take it for a spin. Anyone else with any experience with this style of 3c Belcher that wants to chime in and help me out? It's much appreciated.

[yankeedave]

Did you see him use Burning Wish at all? If so, what did he wish for? It will help me work out his deck a little.

Also, with a 3 colour list, was he running Manamorphose as a mana fixer?

Dave

[Hanni]

I think I saw him Burning Wish into Tendrils once, and it did lethal, I just don't remember how he pulled it off.

Either way, the deck needs around 10-12 slots applicable for the kill maindeck to consistently have one to win with. I don't recall him using Infernal Tutor.

For starters, I know for a fact he had 4 Spoils of the Vault.

Beyond that, whatever the best 3rd kill option is would be the final slot. Keeping in mind color is important to, since a fair balance of all 3 colors would be important for Chrome Mox. I think Burning Wish is the best bet, although Empty the Warrens is so lackluster these days. Again, I think he used the Burning Wish to Tendrils me, but I don't know. Burning Wish for acceleration doesn't really seem to make lots of sense, since it costs 1R. Not really sure what the 3rd best tutor/kill would be, honestly.

I did not see Manamorphose. BoP and Tinder Wall were his mana fixers.

I also don't recall seeing ESG I don't think, so that's probably wrong too. -2 ESG +2 BoP for now, I think.

EDIT: After goldfishing, I'm thinking he HAD to run ESG/SSG, because I'm getting inconsistencies and he only had 1 or 2 in the 20 games we played.

Also, I'm guessing that there has to be more ways to convert into black mana, I'm thinking Manamorphose or Wild Cantor would work.

Like I said, I really don't remember what exactly he was playing, but I wanna keep fooling around with all kinds of different shit with the 3c list until I start goldfishing the deck and getting the results he was getting.

(I really highly doubt he got lucky ass hands all 20 games, I'm gonna spend all day trying to figure this out.)

EDIT: This is what I got goin on right now. Tell me what you think, honest opinions.

3c Belcher

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [DDC] Duress
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast

I'm still curious if the BoP's wouldn't be better off as 2 each of the Guides, but so far that list is running rather smooth. The sideboard is just a random throw together for now.

I have been able to successfully use the Burning Wishes to Tendrils for 20+ several times now, once for 26 damage via Manamorphose chains. The deck loses it's access to MD uncounterable win via MD EtW, but I'm so sick of EtW in the format currently. MD Tendrils just seems to risky; Burning Wish feels appropriate for now. However, Burning Wish may be better as something else, like EtW or Tendrils (more than likely EtW).

[Ranarion]

Isn't Wild Cantor way better than BoP in this deck? You only need to get 1 mana from it per game so the sacrifice part isn't a problem. Wild Cantor is easier to cast, you can use him in the turn you play him (not for mana but as 0: Increase your storm count by 1) and he is more powerful if imprinted in Chrome Mox than BoP. I really can't see any advantages of BoP in this deck over Wild Cantor.

[yankeedave]

I would make the changes listed below, just for testing. Explanations are below:

// Lands
1 [b] Taiga
1 [b] Bayou

// Creatures
2 Wild Cantor
3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

I wasnt convinced by BOP, but Wild Cantor seems stronger. I am not sure it is needed as a 4-of, with already having Manamorphose. I think 6 fixers should do it. I have also reduced the Cabal Ritual count, as it isnt very good without Threshold and upped the Burning Wish back to 4, as you are going to use your BW's for dealing with problem cards such as Gaddock Teeg, counterbalance etc. I am using something like:

SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns (for helping along if you are short of Win-cons)
SB: 1 Deathmark (for those troublesome Hatebears!)
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing (I see some ichorid, good at putting bridges back into their decks!)
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast

Have a play with that, and let us know the results!

Dave

[hwtcharger07]

you should really test the list i posted. I've found it to be far superior to the 2 land bayou build. I had 3 spoils main back then but cut them as i killed myself with them a few times (though thats mostly my bad luck). also they are impossible to cast with out manamorphose which i wasn't sunning at the time. Though i suppose i should test spoils now that my mana is better (even though i cut bayou).

to the poster who said 12-13 wins cons is better than what i run, i have, and know of only the 4 belcher, 3 etw (1 is SB) and 4 burning wish; for a total of 11. what else do you propose i run? were you speaking of spoils of the vault or something else, please elaborate. I'll post a new list after class.

[Hanni]

Okay, I've been doing alot of work on this all morning, and I've come to some huge conclusions. Get ready for a big post.

3c Belcher Mini Primer

Prologue

Belcher first surfaced back when we still had the trifecta of Goblins, Threshold, and [Combo]. At the time of its printing, Empty the Warrens was insane. We has just gotten a ton of red rituals, and the format wasn't prepared to handle 8-12 1/1 Goblin tokens on turn 1-2. Since then, the format has obviously evolved. Belcher fell out of favor around the time when blue started seeing heavy play. The deck tended to fold to resolved FoW. The EtW kill also became answerable for many strategies, and for the most part, Belcher got shelved.

With the printing of Tarmogoyf, the whole format changed (obviously).

With Tarmogoyf, Goblins fell down from it's domination. Still a great deck, but no longer the best deck in the format. Even though everyone swares up and down that the format keeps speeding up, and that undercosted fatties like Tarmogoyf are a clear sign of that, I disagree. I think the format has actually slowed down.

Significantly more powerful cards keep getting printed and they are slightly higher up in the cc range (Krosan Grip, for example). CounterTop isn't low cc either, it costs (1) + (U)(U), and then an additional (1) to be active. I rarely ever see artifact/enchantment removal these days cost under 3 mana (again, Krosan Grip, for example). These sort of examples are what I mean by slower but more powerful cards seeing print/being used.

Traditional combo (IGGy Pop, for example) has evolved as well. It's definitely got some new tools; most recently, Ad Naeseum and Silence, and of course Wipe Away/Krosan Grip for the era of Counterbalance. However, these decks aren't running rampant right now because of spells like Counterbalance. Still very good decks, but easily hated out. Additionally, now that we are in an aggro heavy metagame in addition to aggro/control, Ad Naeseum itself has become a vulnerable engine for ANT.

The Present Age

We are currently in an aggro and aggro/control heavy metagame right now.

(When I refer to this as 3c Belcher, keep in mind that I really mean R/b Belcher with green splashed in for Land Grant's and Taiga/Bayou.)

I believe that 3c Belcher is the evolution of control for the current format/metagame for a number of reasons.

3c Belcher has an incredibly consistent turn 1 combo right now, with very few wins going past turn 2. This is relevant because it races most of the hate options out there. Also, the deck shifts its focus from the EtW kill, which is easily answerable by a large number of played spell these days, and goes back to its namesake: Goblin Charbelcher.

The (r)Evolution

To make this easier, I'll just briefly specify 3 lists of cards, and what this means for 3c Belcher.

What Goblin Charbelcher Has Problems With

Pithing Needle
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Force of Will

I'd like to say that Pithing Needle is a big hoser for this deck. Luckily, Pithing Needle has fallen out of favor for many players. There are simply better answers for most things now, it's alot easier to remove these days than it was back when, and regardless it just sees less play than it used to.

There are a few other big threats too. Chalice of the Void is problematic. It can be dropped turn 1, and requires us to have an answer. Chalice @ 0 isn't nearly as devastating against us as it is against ANT, so Chalices' power is more limited to decks that can power it out for 1 on turn 1, but it's still a problem either way. Turn 1 Trinisphere's are even more problematic, and must be dealt with. Turn 1 Trinisphere's are less common, luckily. Lastly, FoW can still shut us down, too.

Other Possible Problems

Daze is only mildly effective against us. On the play, a turn 1 combo completely invalidates it. Even when the opponent is able to cast Daze, I've found that this deck often has excess mana sources, of whatever color it needs, so Daze is hit or miss. Additionally, the deck can get Dazed from 7 mana to 6 and still cast Belcher... it simply has to wait for the following turn to activate it, which I'll discuss a little later.

We still have the chance to either fizzle, or be put into death range from a bad Spoils of the Vault. This makes the deck a little bit more fair against aggro, but not really. The deck doesn't fizzle on its own often, and the aggro decks don't really have much time to put enough damage into the red zone to kill us under low life totals. Additionally, the deck doesn't always cast Spoils.

The Disadvantages of Empty the Warrens and Advantages of Goblin Charbelcher

With all that being said, every other form of hate that would have either rocked Goblin Charbelcher in days of old, or hate that directly effects current combo decks (like ANT) are far less effective against us.

First, I'll list the weaknesses of the old EtW route for today's metagame. EtW is clearly bad in most cases with today's aggro heavy metagame. Goblin Charbelcher circumvents these answers. The below list is just a small list of the many problems EtW faces:

Empty the Warrens Hate

Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Maelstrom Pulse
Firespout
Engineered Plague
Propaganda
Ghostly Prison
Tabernacle effects
Wrath of God (if we go off turn 2 on the draw or make 8 or less tokens)
Damnation (if we go off turn 2 on the draw or make 8 or less tokens)
Elves (any variant that quickly spams guys onto the field)
Goblins (Goblins isn't getting faster at swarming, pumping, etc)
Zoo (they can put enough guys into play to block enough before lethal)

That's not the entire list. Most decks these days run anti-aggro, and EtW falls victim to most of these answers. The fact that EtW (i.e combo) can potentially lose to decks it's supposed to beat (i.e aggro), is rather disturbing.

Now, hate that the turn 1-2 Charbelcher races:

What Goblin Charbelcher Races

Krosan Grip
Qasali Pridemage
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Trygon Predator
Harmonic Sliver (for those that still play this)
Counterbalance (CounterTop)
Gaddock Teeg
Ethersworn Cannonist
Meddling Mage

3cc artifact removal comes online 1-2 turns too slow to be relevant. Active CounterTop is also 1-2 turns too slow to be relevant (although blind reveals can sometimes be a pain).

In the case of the hate bears, if the Belcher player is on the draw and doesn't drop Charbelcher until turn 2, those obviously aren't raced (same with a Counterbalance if its in a sweet blind reveal spot). Otherwise, rather than pack disruption, like traditional combo does these days (like ANT), we just race disruption.

So for the most part, our clock forces decks to either hope we get a horrible draw (+mulligans), have Chalice and/or Trinisphere (and be able to cast them soon enough), or be playing FoW. In any of these cases, the opponent must have said hate in their opening hand/turn 1 in order to shut us down, and occasionally, we can power through that hate. That's somewhat disturbing. Mulligan for FoW or I win? Sounds pretty good to me.

Deck Construction

What makes 3c Belcher so unique is its ability to focus on playing Goblin Charbelcher rather than Empty the Warrens, which has serious advantages, as listed above. A resolved, unactivated Goblin Charbelcher is almost just as good as a resolved, activated Goblin Charbelcher in the current metagame. Few players have an answer to a resolved Belcher on their turn 1 (Belcher player on the play), and few answers to a resolved on their turn 2 (Belcher player on the draw). Goblin Charbelcher is very resilient.

Secondly, black opens the deck up to the best ritual ever printed in Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual makes the deck increasingly faster and more consistent, and Spoils of the Vault is superior to Burning Wish for us. Spoils costs 1cc, which makes successfully combo'ing that much easier, and opens us up to have extra mana to play around Daze, or even Pyroblast the opponent's FoW postboard. Spoils grabs any spell we need in the entire deck and isn't restricted to a limited number of sideboard choices. Most importantly, spoils can grab accel when we already have a kill card in hand, whereas Burning Wish doesn't really have that option. Think of Spoils as our Vampiric Tutor/Demonic Tutor crossbreed; our Ad Naeseum, if you will.

Digging more into the deck itself, I'll explain a few card choices that have a few players puzzled:


Isn't Wild Cantor way better than BoP in this deck? You only need to get 1 mana from it per game so the sacrifice part isn't a problem. Wild Cantor is easier to cast, you can use him in the turn you play him (not for mana but as 0: Increase your storm count by 1) and he is more powerful if imprinted in Chrome Mox than BoP. I really can't see any advantages of BoP in this deck over Wild Cantor.

I had definitely considered Wild Cantor, but wanted to test Birds of Paradise first, since the opponent that spanked my ass royally (with this deck) used them. I agree that Wild Cantor is the better card here, but regardless, the role that either plays is a crucial one. Wild Cantor is easier to cast, being R/G (red being the important part), which is definitely relevant. Cantor can be used the turn it comes into play to act as a Manamorphose effect, which is relevant. It also pumps the storm count if you need to cast EtW/Tendrils, without taking away from mana production. If the deck can only generate enough mana to cast Belcher but not activate it, Cantor can be played the same turn and used as an additional mana source on the following turn to help activate it, which is important.


I wasnt convinced by BOP, but Wild Cantor seems stronger. I am not sure it is needed as a 4-of, with already having Manamorphose. I think 6 fixers should do it. I have also reduced the Cabal Ritual count, as it isnt very good without Threshold and upped the Burning Wish back to 4, as you are going to use your BW's for dealing with problem cards such as Gaddock Teeg, counterbalance etc. I am using something like:

Whether we run BoP or Cantor, 4 is necessary. Not every turn 1 Belcher is able to be activated, and having the ability to activate it the following turn is very important. The opponent will [usually] not have a way to answer Belcher on turn 2, but [usually] will on turn 3.

Cabal Ritual is exactly identical to Desperate Ritual (minus splice) when we don't have Threshold, and rediculously good when we do. So far, 4 SSG has been fine for me. The fact that Cabal Ritual adds to the storm count, whereas ESG does not, is relevant in the situations where we need to Burning Wish for a lethal Tendrils. Green is also an unecessary color for this deck, whereas black mana is far more important.

I feel that 2 Burning Wish has been the perfect number. If we experience hate bears postboard, we likely race them. If not, we can always attempt to Spoils for a Burning Wish (possibly suicidal). I'm now running 4 Grapeshot/Deathmark* postboard, so 3 come in and 1 stays out, giving us 3 maindeck removal for Spoils and 1 for Burning Wish, which gives huge consistency for finding one in a relevant span of time. Counterbalance will make casting and resolving Burning Wish difficult anyway, so it's simply better to try and race it in game 1 and bring in (4) Red Elemental Blasts in game 2 if you truly need to answer it.

*I'm still up in the air on whether to run Deathmark or Grapeshot. One one hand, Deathmark costs 1 mana less, which is relevant. On the other hand, Grapeshot is uncounterable and can kill multiple hate bears. We cannot generate enough storm to make Grapeshot a win condition, so it's a matter of uncounterability + mass removal vs cost. Mana color is largely a non-issue.

4/4/2 on Belcher, Spoils, Wish has been excellent in testing.

Since I've already tested with BoP and Grapeshot...

The Current List

3c Belcher

// Lands
1 Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [GP] Wild Cantor
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [DDC] Duress

[B]Sideboarding Strategy

Pretty simple, and I did briefly mention it. There are a few specific problems that we have to face, and so the sideboard reflects that. With both Spoils of the Vault and Burning Wish maindeck, we are able to max out on these answers. Doing so allows us to bring 3 of them into the maindeck while leaving 1 in the sideboard, so we effectively have 9 of each particular answer to deal with said problem (10 in the case of REB/Duress vs Blue). I'll add more specifics on what to drop for these as I compile more testing and results.

Epilogue

So in conclusion, for those of you that actually read that whole thing, I think this deck is the evolution of combo for our current metagame until we experience a metagame shift. It answers most of the current problems that traditional combo faces (like ANT); specifically, against aggro/control and/or decks playing CounterTop. At the same time, it still maintains its great matchups against everything else that was a great matchup.

Watch out for Pithing Needle is this deck does take off, since it's splashable for every sideboard (like Relic/Crypt are to Ichorid). Make sure you keep those Shattering Spree's handy.

[Jak]

How does it beat Force of Will?

[Hanni]

How does it beat Force of Will?

By forcing the opponent to have Force of Will in their opening hand/have it turn 1. If they don't, they lose.

In the face of Force of Will, the deck can still combo off. Often, the deck has enough mana sources to cast a second tutor (or the Charbelcher that's in hand, after having had its Spoils countered). The deck generates a great deal of mana in its current configuration.

On rare occasions, the deck can stop combo'ing after something major gets countered (like Seething Song), rebuild in time before serious pressure is put on (Goyf, Counterbalance), and go off again ftw.

Postboard, 4 Red Elemental Blast (again, typically with excess mana sources) and 1 Duress to Burning Wish for are also good answers. Spending 1 mana on Red Elemental Blast often means activating Belcher on turn 2 rather than turn 1, which [usually] doesn't matter.

However, if FoW makes up the large majority of your particular metagame, would you be playing combo anyway? At least this deck would appear to fair better against decks with FoW than traditional storm (like ANT), which seems like a step in the right direction to me. Does this mean combo [3 Belcher] will make a comeback? Probably not, few people take me seriously anyway.

[hwtcharger07]

Hanni while I am happy you are interested in this deck i think you are making some crucial mistakes regarding belcher. mainly this is due to the inclusion of spoils of the vault, I have done a lot of testing with this and it is BAD, i have died so many times when i would have won if i had just waited a turn because of this card. Spoils also decreases you chances against agro builds significantly. Spoils in theory is good however when there is 52 cards in your library and all the belchers are on the bottom it is no fun, I guess it is fair to say you would lose this game anyway but losing to yourself is no great testament to belcher's power. also you are not running tinderwall this is also upsetting to me as tinder wall fixes mana, and blocks problem creatures like goblin lackey all day long, tiderwall also kill bridge from below, which is very relevant.

I agree that empty the warrens is sub par but cutting them for spoils is not the answer and will not increase you win percentage. also I believe you are missing out by not running the full 4 ESG 4 SSG this is necessary if you want to get off the turn 1 belch as it works the same as lotus petal except it isnt affected by chalice of the void or thorn of amethyst, both of which are very prevalent in legacy right now.

while birds is good against control, it is a magnet for their removal game 1 so your turn two belcher might turn into a turn never belcher. also it unlike the full compliment of spirit guides is crippled by chaliceOTV.

Not that I am opposed to progress/change/innovation but if you are concerned with making your opponent mulligan into answers try my build, it is solid maindeck though the sideboard needs a re-tooling. also cabal ritual is more or less always a black desperate ritual, though i would rather play desperate ritual because you can chain it into seething song, ETW, or burning wish. also burning wish into diminishing returns wins games you don't have business playing in.

[Infinitium]

Running a search on Recross the Paths didn't yield anything, has it seriously not been discussed at all? Whilst still a bit on the slow side, it DOES win 2 turns after stacking the library at the latest, and can grab protection/removal whilst going at it. It also abuses LED something fierce, even after the culling of the draw step trick. Granted it's kinda lackluster without thinning that Taiga beforehand, but on the tech side it CAN be cast in order to find that and then replace itself.

I've played it in the EtW spot for some mild success previously and would be interested in people's opinion about it (despite this deck being a bad choice in modern legacy et al). My list for reference:

RG Paths Belcher
// Lands
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MOR] Recross the Paths
3 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [9E] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Burning Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [6E] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning

Generic Win Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/Lotus Petal/Street Wraith -> Goblin Charbelcher

Wins by Charbelcher on the spot and spits on Ethersworn Canonist. Postside the Lotus Petal can be replaced by a 1-of Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree, or Chain Lightning (with two extra mana available) to deal with whatever.

G1 Hate Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/LED/Street Wraith -> Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract (RRRR Floating) -> Burning Wish/Seething Song/LED/Charbelcher

The second Wish can grab Reverent Silence or Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree with an extra mana invested in order to remove assorted hate and continue winning by Belch from there.

*Most often achieved by putting Manamorphose on top of the library and winning the next turn with at least 3 mana on the table/on hand, but putting LED and a Street Wraith on top also works.

[Hanni]

@ hwtcharger07


Hanni while I am happy you are interested in this deck i think you are making some crucial mistakes regarding belcher. mainly this is due to the inclusion of spoils of the vault, I have done a lot of testing with this and it is BAD, i have died so many times when i would have won if i had just waited a turn because of this card. Spoils also decreases you chances against agro builds significantly. Spoils in theory is good however when there is 52 cards in your library and all the belchers are on the bottom it is no fun, I guess it is fair to say you would lose this game anyway but losing to yourself is no great testament to belcher's power. also you are not running tinderwall this is also upsetting to me as tinder wall fixes mana, and blocks problem creatures like goblin lackey all day long, tiderwall also kill bridge from below, which is very relevant.

Spoils isn't much different than Ad Naeseum, which is also an engine card at the expense of life. Difference is, Ad Nauseum costs 5 mana and draws you cards, where Spoils costs 1 mana and tutors for a specific card.

Losing due to a bad Spoil's is no worse than fizzling with the combo do to other reasons. How many times do you find yourself 1 mana short of going Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens? Seems like no less of a fizzle than killing yourself outright; if you cannot combo off fast enough with Belcher, you will more than likely lose anyway.

How often are you actually fizzling with Spoils, anyway? I very rarely lose more than 10 life with it. I don't think the 1 out of 10 fizzles that Spoils causes is worth running a worse version of the deck.

Let me explain it this way:

First and foremost, between Belcher and EtW, Belcher is the superior kill spell. Spoils grabs Belcher, Wish doesn't.

Secondly, Spoils is 1cc, Wish is 2cc. This is relevant for so many reasons. The deck is made up of mostly +1 (net) mana rituals. This means that it requires 1 less ritual effect to combo off with Spoils as opposed to Wish. Spoils -> Belcher costs 5, Wish -> EtW costs 6. Therefore, if you're only able to create 5 mana, you would normally be unable to combo with Wish into EtW, but you would be able to put Belcher into play. In cases where you do you have 6 mana, the extra 1 mana left over from Spoils into Belcher gives the deck resilience; the ability to dodge Daze, or cast REB (postboard) against FoW, is invaluable. Of course, in times where you have 7 mana available, rather than Wish into EtW with 1 leftover mana, you can simply win right on the spot with Belcher. These differences are not subtle.

Thirdly, Spoils and Wish serve two different functions. Both Spoils and Wish grab the kill spell as their primary function.

Wish can grab protection spells from the sideboard with its secondary function. Minor plus; more often than not, Wish is not needed to grab protection spells from the sideboard in game 1. People don't bring in their hate until games 2 and 3. I agree that in special cases, like opponent's with maindeck Chalice/Trini, Burning Wish is great. At the same time, I am still running 2 Burning Wish maindeck.

Spoils, on the other hand, enables you to combo easier/faster in game 1, by grabbing either the kill spell, or an additional accelerant. This versatility is invaluable, especially postboard. Being 1cc less, and being able to grab an extra accelerant, allows the deck to more easily cast REB's against opposing FoW's.

In games 2 and 3, bringing in 3x sideboard protection, keeping 1 sideboard protection in the sideboard, gives the deck access to 9 protection spells with the 4 Spoils + 2 Wish. With just 4 Wish, you get access to 4 protection spells.

All 3 of these make Spoils > Wish, without a doubt.

As far as Tinder Wall goes... all it is, is another +1 (net) accelerant, except it requires an initial green mana source rather than a black one. Blocking is an unecessary strategy in Belcher, because you should simply be combo'ing instead. The only spells that green offers, are ESG and Tinder Wall, two +1 (net) accelerants. ESG doesn't even generate any storm count.

Green is an inferior color to black, which offers a +2 (net) accelerant, and a +1 (net) accelerant that has the possibility to be a +3 (net) accelerant if you have Threshold. Threshold is achievable through cantripping/tutoring via Manamorphose and Spoils. Both black accelerants generate storm count. Green offers nothing else relevant besides those two accelerants, the black accelerants are superior to the green accelerants, and black offers the best tutor available with Spoils. Being in black also opens up Tendrils as a Wish target, which is superior to EtW when you can generate enough storm... and enough storm generation is possible through Manamorphose and Spoils (and the Wish, and the Tendrils itself, of course).


I agree that empty the warrens is sub par but cutting them for spoils is not the answer and will not increase you win percentage. also I believe you are missing out by not running the full 4 ESG 4 SSG this is necessary if you want to get off the turn 1 belch as it works the same as lotus petal except it isnt affected by chalice of the void or thorn of amethyst, both of which are very prevalent in legacy right now.

Yes, it will. ESG is +1 (net) mana. How does this accelerate the deck any different than casting Spoils for Dark Ritual? Spoils for Ritual is the same +1 (net) mana. Cabal Ritual, pre-thresh, is also a +1 (net) accelerant. The only point to ESG/SSG is that it gets your chain started, where the deck already has sufficient means to get the chain started, green mana from ESG is less valuable than red or black, and black offers you not only the best ritual ever printed (Dark Ritual), it also offers you the best tutor for this deck (Spoils). Dark Ritual is +2 (net) mana, and it's from a 1 mana initial investment, no less. ESG also doesn't build storm, which is mildly relevant for me since I run 2 Wish and a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils sideboard, and massively relevant for you, since 7 of your kill cards are storm-based (4 Burning Wish, 3 EtW).


while birds is good against control, it is a magnet for their removal game 1 so your turn two belcher might turn into a turn never belcher. also it unlike the full compliment of spirit guides is crippled by chaliceOTV.

I've already switched over to Wild Cantor for obvious reasons.


Not that I am opposed to progress/change/innovation but if you are concerned with making your opponent mulligan into answers try my build, it is solid maindeck though the sideboard needs a re-tooling. also cabal ritual is more or less always a black desperate ritual, though i would rather play desperate ritual because you can chain it into seething song, ETW, or burning wish. also burning wish into diminishing returns wins games you don't have business playing in.

I'd rather try my build, since fundamentally, the entire deck construction makes sense for the current metagame we're in, which is all detailed in my mini primer.

Exactly, Cabal Ritual is no worse than Desperate Ritual, and produces black mana for Spoils, or even Tendrils. The deck runs so many red accelerants that it has little lack of red funding, and with Cantor/Morphose/Grant/Mox/Petal, easily converts back and forth between red and black sources as necessary. This is what I did: R/g -> R/b. Essentially, I cut green for black, as black is the superior secondary color to red.

I've yet to find a need for Diminishing Returns so far. Doesn't mean it's not a possibility, though.

The only final question I have for my build is whether dropping 1 Cabal Ritual for 1 Burning Wish would be a better configuration.

[Gocho]

@ hwtcharger07
As far as Tinder Wall goes... all it is, is another +1 (net) accelerant, except it requires an initial green mana source rather than a black one. Blocking is an unecessary strategy in Belcher, because you should simply be combo'ing instead. The only spells that green offers, are ESG and Tinder Wall, two +1 (net) accelerants. ESG doesn't even generate any storm count.

Green is an inferior color to black, which offers a +2 (net) accelerant, and a +1 (net) accelerant that has the possibility to be a +3 (net) accelerant if you have Threshold. Threshold is achievable through cantripping/tutoring via Manamorphose and Spoils. Both black accelerants generate storm count. Green offers nothing else relevant besides those two accelerants, the black accelerants are superior to the green accelerants, and black offers the best tutor available with Spoils. Being in black also opens up Tendrils as a Wish target, which is superior to EtW when you can generate enough storm... and enough storm generation is possible through Manamorphose and Spoils (and the Wish, and the Tendrils itself, of course).

Yes, it will. ESG is +1 (net) mana. How does this accelerate the deck any different than casting Spoils for Dark Ritual? Spoils for Ritual is the same +1 (net) mana. Cabal Ritual, pre-thresh, is also a +1 (net) accelerant. The only point to ESG/SSG is that it gets your chain started, where the deck already has sufficient means to get the chain started, green mana from ESG is less valuable than red or black, and black offers you not only the best ritual ever printed (Dark Ritual), it also offers you the best tutor for this deck (Spoils). Dark Ritual is +2 (net) mana, and it's from a 1 mana initial investment, no less. ESG also doesn't build storm, which is mildly relevant for me since I run 2 Wish and a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils sideboard, and massively relevant for you, since 7 of your kill cards are storm-based (4 Burning Wish, 3 EtW).


I test your Belcher version 30 times yesterday and I find some problems:

- You can't convert Black mana in Red mana. When your mana sources are only Lotus petal or Land Grant, Dark Ritual and the expensive red spells you can't chain the spells to produce mana. If you can't find a Petal and only have SSG and no mana-fixers you can't play Black Rituals. I took a lot of Mulligans because that. There aren't a black mana-fixer? Green and Red mana can be fixed, Black mana can't.

- Tinder Wall is a must have because it's flexible. It gives only +1 mana but it's RED mana. You need more cheap mana cards because you can't chain Dark or Cabal Rituals with expensive Red Rituals. You need a G to play it, but the same cards that give you B to play Dark Ritual can give you G to play Tinder (Land Grant, Lotus Petal, mana-fixers and Chrome Mox).

- I don't like Cabal Ritual. You get BBB for BR, and then you can't get R to continue chaining spells. I rarely have Threshold and if I get it, I have enough mana and don't need more. You can't play it without a mana-fixer or Dark Ritual and in both cases you can play Spoils without play Cabal. I'll put Tinder Wall in this slot. You can play Lotus Petal (G)-> Tinder (RR) -> Mana-Fixer (RB) -> Dark Ritual (RBBB) -> Desperate Ritual (BBRRR)or Setthing Song (BRRRRR)-> Belcher(B or BR) -> Spoils for LED. But can't DO it if the Tinder was a Cabal.

- Spoils it's great and a must have. You would die for it (never in my 30 test games), but you can win with only 5 manas + Charbelcher + Spoils if you look for LED. If you get FOWed, getting 5 manas another time it's very easy with this deck.

- Chrome Mox is terrible. Two cards for a single mana? When I played it I always need a second turn to activate Belcher. ESG would be better used only for colorless costs. His green mana can be fixed, black mana can't. And protect you vs Chalice at 0.

My suggestions until we find a Black Fixer (untested):
-4 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Ritual
+4 Elvih Spirit Guide, +4 Tinder Wall

Recross the Paths must be tested. I played Solidarity/Spring Tide and arranged all my library with Flash of Insight give me a lot of games. If you play Recross, you can add a single card as protection to combo in your second turn and put in the pile. And if win the clash, easy if you rearrange all your library and put a Belcher, you can use it to imprint a Chrome Mox.

If you don't like it maindeck, can try it in the sideboard as wish target.

EDIT:


Generic Win Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/Lotus Petal/Street Wraith -> Goblin Charbelcher

Wins by Charbelcher on the spot and spits on Ethersworn Canonist. Postside the Lotus Petal can be replaced by a 1-of Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree, or Chain Lightning (with two extra mana available) to deal with whatever.

G1 Hate Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/LED/Street Wraith -> Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract (RRRR Floating) -> Burning Wish/Seething Song/LED/Charbelcher

The second Wish can grab Reverent Silence or Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree with an extra mana invested in order to remove assorted hate and continue winning by Belch from there.

*Most often achieved by putting Manamorphose on top of the library and winning the next turn with at least 3 mana on the table/on hand, but putting LED and a Street Wraith on top also works.

Wow, Doomsday Piles in Belcher cheaper. I must try it.
But, I think that you must put a Recross as wish Target and add the Wish count to 4. It's 2 more mana, but you have 7 Recross (3 for 2G and 4 for 3GR) to play with.
And can try a single crash for a Spree in the sideboard. You can't wish for it, but can put it in the pile for the second wish and cost no mana. Some for Thunderclap vs Chain Lightning.

[Infinitium]

That build I posted isn't optimized by far tbh, and I'm way too lazy/impatient to run the math/gauntlet as is. 4 Wish Preboard may indeed be the correct choice (and safer since it doesn't need Grant/Taiga beforehand to be effective), but it will decrease the freak T1/T2 wins by Recross some. Basically having access to 3 non-LED mana+Manamorphose or LED+Wraith means Recross wins on the spot, having access to any of those 4 means it wins the next turn and having none means it wins after 2 turns.

May be worth it, iunno. Don't really play this deck anymore as it's, well, boring.

[surly]

.... I really don't know why there is that much discussion going on out of nowhere about this deck... anyway - I didn't read every single massive wall of text tbh, but there where some points that catched my eye:

*BoP... 3 words - are you serious :confused: I mean... really... even Cantor isn't the best choices, and BoP is even worse.

*cutting ETW: I honestly can't imagine this deck working without that card MD. Sure, it's not the most consistant way of winning and really fragile, but nevertheless - you simply can't constantly win with Belcher+Spoils all alone, so there has to be another option. Otherwise you'll loose too many games due heavy mulling.

*reducing the BW count: same as above, beside ETW it fetches Diminishing Return, which becomes a really strong card in combination with mana-heavy hands.

*Tinder Wall: after playing about 1k games with my Belcher list (playing that deck since 3 years now in some casual rounds :cool: ) I would sort all mana producing spells this way: LED/DarkRit/Petal > Rite of Flame/Land Grant > SSG/ESG/Tinder Wall > Seething Song > Mox/Desperate
....to summarize, before I would reduce the number of Tinder Walls I would cut Seething Songs, Desperate Rituals and reduce the number of Moxen down too 3.


Just for info, this is the list I'm playing since Manamorphose got printed:

4 Belcher
4 Wish
3 ETW
3 Spoils

4 DarkRit
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
4 ESG
4 SSG
3 Mox
1 Taiga

Those cards are my auto-includes, which leaves me 10 open slots to fill up. Sadly the powerlevel decreases significantly with those 10 cards...

a 4th Mox (this really sucks, you never want 2 of them in your opener)
4 Seething Song (honestly... this one sucks compared too the other ones above, but somehow it has to become 60 cards...)

This leaves 5 open slots, that consist of any combination of those cards: Desperate Ritual, Cantor, a 2nd Taiga and sometimes a Bayou.

SB is more easily build, my personal auto includes are ETW, Diminishing Return, Tendrils and Goblin War Strike. The rest can be filled with Magus of the Moon, Xantids, Blasts, Spree and additional Wish targets.

Hope this helps, greetz
surly

[thefreakaccident]

If you guys want a quick glass-cannon deck... why not play the infernal contract/cruel bargain/tendrils combo?

It had over a 60% first turn goldfish... by far the quickest and most consistent glasscannon out there.

[Hanni]

@ Gocho


- You can't convert Black mana in Red mana. When your mana sources are only Lotus petal or Land Grant, Dark Ritual and the expensive red spells you can't chain the spells to produce mana. If you can't find a Petal and only have SSG and no mana-fixers you can't play Black Rituals. I took a lot of Mulligans because that. There aren't a black mana-fixer? Green and Red mana can be fixed, Black mana can't.

I run into very few problems converting mana. Cantor and Morphose directly convert mana, Land Grant gives you flexibility in whether you need to start off with black or red, there are enough black spells to make Chrome Mox an easy fixer for either red or black, and Lotus Petal obviously helps enable either or.

Some hands require to be mulliganed, no differently than any other version of Belcher. My 1st turn combo win chances with the deck, without fizzling, are very high and very consistent, so I'm not sure where you're running into issues.

How can green and red be fixed but black cannot? This deck runs a ton of red sources and ways to cast red sources, and enough ways to convert those sources. I'm not running into issues with this, I'm not sure why you are.


- Tinder Wall is a must have because it's flexible. It gives only +1 mana but it's RED mana. You need more cheap mana cards because you can't chain Dark or Cabal Rituals with expensive Red Rituals. You need a G to play it, but the same cards that give you B to play Dark Ritual can give you G to play Tinder (Land Grant, Lotus Petal, mana-fixers and Chrome Mox).

I don't think Tinder wall is a must have. I'm not denying that it is a good mana accelerant, but it requires green mana, and I feel that the deck is better off sticking to a R/b base. Dark Ritual is the best ritual in the game, and gearing the deck to be able to consistently cast Dark Rituals sets it up for more frequent turn 1 wins.


- I don't like Cabal Ritual. You get BBB for BR, and then you can't get R to continue chaining spells. I rarely have Threshold and if I get it, I have enough mana and don't need more. You can't play it without a mana-fixer or Dark Ritual and in both cases you can play Spoils without play Cabal. I'll put Tinder Wall in this slot. You can play Lotus Petal (G)-> Tinder (RR) -> Mana-Fixer (RB) -> Dark Ritual (RBBB) -> Desperate Ritual (BBRRR)or Setthing Song (BRRRRR)-> Belcher(B or BR) -> Spoils for LED. But can't DO it if the Tinder was a Cabal.

Cabal Ritual is just a filler accelerant, because the deck cuts out green for black. ESG could replace Cabal since they both provide +1 (net) and ESG doesn't require an initial investment, but Cabal being black is important for the the black spell count for Chrome Mox, IMO. That, and Cabal adds to the spell count, which is relevant when I have to go with a Burning Wish win.


- Spoils it's great and a must have. You would die for it (never in my 30 test games), but you can win with only 5 manas + Charbelcher + Spoils if you look for LED. If you get FOWed, getting 5 manas another time it's very easy with this deck.

Yes, Spoils is the best card in the deck. Very flexible, never a dead card (even in multiples, sometimes). Makes having a hand of Goblin Charbelcher and Spoils better than a hand of Goblin Charbelcher and Empty the Warrens, or a hand of Burning Wish and Spoils better than a hand of Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, for example(s).


- Chrome Mox is terrible. Two cards for a single mana? When I played it I always need a second turn to activate Belcher. ESG would be better used only for colorless costs. His green mana can be fixed, black mana can't. And protect you vs Chalice at 0.

The thing about Chrome Mox though, is that it's a permanent mana source. I know the 2-for-1 is bad, and maybe I should test around with cutting it for ESG, but being permanent means that if I cannot cast + activate Belcher this turn, I have a greater consistency to activate it next turn. That, and it can provide either red or black to start my chain off, whereas ESG being green won't start my chain off without another 0 investment accelerant or a Wild Cantor.


My suggestions until we find a Black Fixer (untested):
-4 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Ritual
+4 Elvih Spirit Guide, +4 Tinder Wall

But there are plenty of black fixers...? We have ways of generating early R with SSG, Petal, Mox, and Land Grant. Once we generate an early red, we can convert it into black with a number of spells like Cantor, Morphose, Petal, Mox, and Land Grant. Like I said, I've not been having serious issues with converting the mana, honestly.

@ surly


*BoP... 3 words - are you serious I mean... really... even Cantor isn't the best choices, and BoP is even worse.

If you've read why I initially tried it, it's because the guy who beat my Counterbalance control deck used them. Wild Cantor is clearly better, and so I've switched.


*cutting ETW: I honestly can't imagine this deck working without that card MD. Sure, it's not the most consistant way of winning and really fragile, but nevertheless - you simply can't constantly win with Belcher+Spoils all alone, so there has to be another option. Otherwise you'll loose too many games due heavy mulling.


I don't win with Spoils/Belcher alone. I also run 2 Burning Wish MD, with a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils in the SB. If you're that concerned with the amount of kill spells ran, 1 Cabal Ritual can easily be dropped for 1 more Burning Wish, giving the deck a 4/4/3 Belcher/Spoils/Wish, which is the same number of kill spells ran in traditional R/g Belcher.


*reducing the BW count: same as above, beside ETW it fetches Diminishing Return, which becomes a really strong card in combination with mana-heavy hands.

Or, you can have Spoils/Belcher for mana heavy hands and just win with a Belcher + activation.


*Tinder Wall: after playing about 1k games with my Belcher list (playing that deck since 3 years now in some casual rounds ) I would sort all mana producing spells this way: LED/DarkRit/Petal > Rite of Flame/Land Grant > SSG/ESG/Tinder Wall > Seething Song > Mox/Desperate
....to summarize, before I would reduce the number of Tinder Walls I would cut Seething Songs, Desperate Rituals and reduce the number of Moxen down too 3.

I think Seething Song is a mandatory 4-of, because it and Dark Ritual are the only two rituals that add +2 (net) mana; every other accelerant is only +1 (net) (with the exception of a thresh'd Cabal Ritual). Everything else is debatable, but I don't value Tinder Wall very highly in my R/b deck because it costs green to be cast in the first place, whereas the deck wants to be generating red or black instead, and the red that Tinder Wall provides doesn't really matter since the deck runs an assload of red accelerants already. It's basically just a 1 mana invest +1 (net) accelerant, which is very good, but easily replaceable, IMO.

[Hanni]

Sorry for the double post, but I had new content to add that wasn't relevant to the previous post.

I'm going to try -1 Cabal Ritual +1 Burning Wish in my list for now, so that I have a 4/4/3 configuration of kill spells. This opens me up to more consistent opening hands I think, as well as give me more access to sideboard protections in games 1, 2, and 3 (if they go that long). Considering standard R/g Belcher runs a 4/4/3 also, this should be identical with starting hands and such.

Also, I'm not advocating Cabal Ritual. That accelerant spot could be any +1 (net) accelerant. I'm simply choosing Cabal Ritual, for now, because it makes more sense with the rest of the deck. The deck wants to be R/b, so adding green rituals seems counterproductive.

What I am advocating is Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault. I'm advocating that the deck should become R/b Belcher. I'm advocating dropping EtW out of the maindeck, and I'm advocating that the evolution of Belcher, hell the evolution of combo, is to go this route.

R/b Belcher is blazingly fast. My turn 1 win % has been like 90%, seriously. The few games where I don't win on turn 1 with an activated Belcher, I'm either dropping 10-12 1/1 Goblin tokens, casting Tendrils for lethal, or dropping Belcher turn 1 and activating it turn 2. Almost never do I combo out any later than turn 2, and if I do, I either kept a hand that should have been mulliganed, or I ran into FoW/Chalice.

R/b Belcher is very resilient. It races most relevant hate and has sideboard protection plans for the hate that it can't race. Aside from the few problem cards it faces (Chalice/FoW), the deck beats every other deck in the format when it's not fizzling, most cases even if it does for whatever reason combo past turn 2.

R/b Belcher is easy to hate out with Pithing Needle, which makes it a metagame deck much like Ichorid. Both Belcher and Ichorid have similar clocks, except they have different good and bad matchups. Difference here is that the deck doesn't fold to Pithing Needle because it runs Burning Wish to grab either EtW or Tendrils, and Shattering Spree is a great answer to it.

That is all.

EDIT: In my old Belcher deck, I used to pack 4 REB maindeck. I'm thinking it could be possible for me to drop the 3 Cabal Rituals for 3 REB maindeck, without a drastic change in the decks consistency. I'll test that a bit and see how it turns out.

[TestMonkey]

Gratz to Cedric for getting 8th at the 5k with deck.

Only complaint I have against his configuration is that double Tinder Wall in your opening grip sucks.

Regarding the sideboard, why isn't one Infernal Tutor an auto include? It gives you something to do if you have 6 or more mana after Burning Wish. 4 more goblins can make all the difference.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

R/b Belcher is easy to hate out with Pithing Needle, which makes it a metagame deck much like Ichorid. Both Belcher and Ichorid have similar clocks, except they have different good and bad matchups. Difference here is that the deck doesn't fold to Pithing Needle because it runs Burning Wish to grab either EtW or Tendrils, and Shattering Spree is a great answer to it.



I don't have much first-hand experience playing either one of these decks, but I thought the general consensus about Ichorid is that it doesn't really fold to sideboard hate either, as long as the pilot is experienced enough and knows what to expect...

It seems like they're pretty similar in resilience really. And although people aren't packing sideboard slots specifically for the Charbelcher matchup these days, people are using plenty of cards that are good against it: Force of Will, Chalice, artifact hate, Trinisphere, bounce spells, Thoughtseize, etc.

I don't think the meta is quite as ripe for the picking as all that. I'm not trashing Charbelcher, but I think you might be jumping the gun by a little bit if you're ready to proclaim it the next combo-deck-Jesus. :tongue:

[cwt1220]

Played by Cedric Philips

Artifacts
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Creatures
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song

Sorceries
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty The Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite Of Flame

Lands
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Sideboard:
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Duress
1 Empty The Warrens
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils Of Agony

-Chris-

[jandax]

This is a good primer. Really, the OP and following posters are intelligent and bring to the table good arguements for and against many things.

Here is a question for the masses, meant to illicit overwhelming pro's over con's:

Why run Belcher?

[voltron00x]

This is a good primer. Really, the OP and following posters are intelligent and bring to the table good arguements for and against many things.

Here is a question for the masses, meant to illicit overwhelming pro's over con's:

Why run Belcher?

In any given tournament, you effectively have a bye against 50% of the room.

[badjuju]

In any given tournament, you effectively have a bye against 50% of the room.

Also if you don't really want to think.

With the simplicity comes a price though - it's tough to "outplay" people because you have so few options with this deck. Just ram your head into the wall until you win or lose, simple as that.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Pro: you roll over any non blue deck and any blue deck that doest mull to force.

Con: a single force or sometimes dazze backed by a threat beats you.

[Gocho]

Last month in our monthly tournament, a standard Rbg Belcher makes top 2 after 5 Swiss round and Top8. He didn't faces a single blue deck.

In the final, he losed vs Tarmosligh. First game, Taiga was the first card after Charbelcher activation and can't find 3 mana to activate again. Second game 12 goblins meets a single Pyroclasm and a Tarmo kill him.

With Belcher, you are playing vs the luck.

This month our meta was fulled of Canadian Thresh and Merfolks.

[Damoxx]

GP: MN Legacy Side Event - 58 Players

2 Belcher decks Split the top 2 prizes.

[badjuju]

GP: MN Legacy Side Event - 58 Players

2 Belcher decks Split the top 2 prizes.

lol good times.

Losing to belcher must be an awful experience I've never had the displeasure of feeling.
...though probably still not as bad as CB though :P

[yankeedave]

Yeah, you hear about Belcher doing this a lot, and I have walked away from my local monthly league 3-0 or 2-1 a couple of times, then turned up and gone 0-3, 0-3, 0-3 at other events. I love this deck, but it is far to inconsistent and rolls over far too hard against any kind of control. It is very dependant on the opening hand and mulliganing to oblivion is certainly possible. I have shelved this for the time being as a deck that is fun to bring out against newbies to show them some brokeness, but not reliable enough to use against anyone else in serious tourney play.

Dave

[Damoxx]

Losing to belcher must be an awful experience I've never had the displeasure of feeling.
...though probably still not as bad as CB though :P

Well, after losing to Cedric at the Philly 5K, I decided it was time I tried to belch people. It worked...

Tournament report coming as soon as I find my notes.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Personally Ive been testing Hannis RB version and it really doesnt have half the consistency issues of RG belcher. Being able to go for belcher against decks that have EE or clasm is so huge.

[Brad Herbig]

I'm thinking about playing RB Belcher at the next event I go to.. Here is my list:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Spoils of the Vault

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Dark Ritual
3 Manamorphose

1 Taiga
1 Bayou

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Hull Breach
3 Duress
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm

There were a decent number of decks with force in my meta, but not too many, so I figured 8 pieces of blue hate would be fitting. I also like the Diminishing Returns, because it gives me a second hand to try with, and my opponent can't mull to force with the new hand. Any suggestions?

[kicks_422]

You might want to have some Shattering Sprees in the board. Back when I was playing this deck, my board was 4 Spree, 4 Pyro, 4 Swarm, 1 EtW, 1 Pyroclasm, 1 Hull Breach. I figured I would never Wish for anything else besides those three 1-ofs, though Diminishing Returns DOES look intriguing - maybe over the Pyroclasm slot.

[damionblackgear]

GP: MN Legacy Side Event - 58 Players

2 Belcher decks Split the top 2 prizes.

T8 1 of the Belcher's Won to his opponent scooping before he flipped lethal... He showed for fun... He whiffed. :D

[Vacrix]

just my 2 cents..

Goblin Welder > REB

welder is either going to draw a counter, or belcher will get countered, and then you can weld belcher into play. even better, drop LED and an artifact, break LED next turn putting belcher into the grave and then weld your belcher into play ftw. also, welder can take out opposing pithing needles provided they have another artifact in the grave. then again, REB can take out counterbalance.

ive seen welder put to better use then ive seen with REB. thoughts?




also, after playing seriously way too many hands with Pact SI, this thread got me thinking...

Summoners Pact > Tinder Wall

what does tinder wall do? it turns G into RR, so its an investment of G. summoners pact is an investment of 0 and it can fetch either ESG or SSG so it effectively nets you the same amount of mana but you can choose red or green and you dont need the initial investment of G. i will of course recieve the criticism, 'what if belcher misfires'. well my first reaction was, if your turn 1 WIN percentage (not going off percentage) is already at 90% then this should improve the consistency that much more. if not then, the number 90% is wrong or pact just doesnt belong. running into 4 tinder walls is an issue but running into 4 summoners pact? they even count as spells if you are going for tendrils via burning wish. speaking of which, how does one go about getting a high enough spell count to resolve a tendrils in belcher? im assuming that is with diminishing returns and color fixing accounts for the blue but really? i cant imagine that happening often. anyway, onto a list that uses pact, that isnt pact SI...

this build:

win con:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Spoils of the Vault


starting mana:
4 Lotus Petal
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

color fixing:
4 Manamorphose
2 Wild Cantor

rituals/led:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Dark Ritual
2 Culling the Weak

land:
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Taiga

the idea is, drop bayou in favor of dryad arbor. culling the weak can be used via dryad arbor which can be searched for via land grant OR summoner's pact, or you can play it by dropping wild cantor or searching for wild cantor and dropping it with another mana source. also, with this build you are very likely to drop a land because you can search for them with summoners pact or land grant. also, you can play spoils for land grant or pact to get rid of your other land if you have the hand to support that play.

the color fixing is very questionable though. it should probably be reworked if it works at all. you can of course search for SSG/ESG with summoner's pact while you can also search for a wild cantor to convert to black. the question is, are there enough black sources to enable 4 dark rit and 2 culling the weak? probably not. that has to be worked in somehow. i dropped taiga at first but i think that taiga will prevent the misfire more often so i changed it to keep taiga. manamorphose will therefore be key to color fixing you some black mana. you must run 4 in this build for it to work. all together that makes 4 petal, 2 cantor, 4 pact --> cantor, 4 manamorphose as the black sources/color fixers = 14 provided you dont have to use pact for cantor and then not have cantor as your color fixer or need pact as your starting mana for rituals.

i understand its a more risky build, but come game 2 you can board out summoners pact in favor of duress/xantid swarm/reb/welder/etc so really its just improving your game 1. the point behind running pact is to improve consistency in game 1. if it doesnt, by all means drop it but as long as belcher has the surprise factor, its going to win a lot of games out of sheer speed. especially game 1 games. also, you arent always going to have pact in your hand. in fact you wont have it in most of your games. the reasons for running it are along the same lines as running spoils IMO.

i can tell you from experience playing Pact SI that summoners pact is really legit if played in the right hand. granted, it might make you mulligan maybe a few more times in your playtesting of 50 games but im betting it will improve consistency. i also acknowledge that summoners pact is better made use of with draw4's that Pact SI has and belcher doesnt have. likely more color fixers will be necessary meaning more cantor and less ESG(?). i dont think you need even 3 ESG as you dont really use green mana for anything you couldnt use red for (give that tinderwall is out). then again, you need starting mana for rituals so i can see maybe cutting 1 for a 3rd cantor as a possibility.

thoughts?

[Zinch]

just my 2 cents..


also, after playing seriously way too many hands with Pact SI, this thread got me thinking...

Summoners Pact > Tinder Wall

what does tinder wall do? it turns G into RR, so its an investment of G. summoners pact is an investment of 0 and it can fetch either ESG or SSG so it effectively nets you the same amount of mana but you can choose red or green and you dont need the initial investment of G. i will of course recieve the criticism, 'what if belcher misfires'. well my first reaction was, if your turn 1 WIN percentage (not going off percentage) is already at 90% then this should improve the consistency that much more. if not then, the number 90% is wrong or pact just doesnt belong. running into 4 tinder walls is an issue but running into 4 summoners pact? they even count as spells if you are going for tendrils via burning wish. speaking of which, how does one go about getting a high enough spell count to resolve a tendrils in belcher? im assuming that is with diminishing returns and color fixing accounts for the blue but really? i cant imagine that happening often. anyway, onto a list that uses pact, that isnt pact SI...


Except for the fact that you can't search for SSG with summoner's pact because it only fetches green creatures. Otherwise I think it could be an improvement

[Vacrix]

XP

wow. im so used to just fetching either vine dryad or dryad arbor i forgot it can only fetch green. point taken. you can search for cantor still, but yea, that is obviously weaker. nvm.

[Phthisisity]

just so everyone knows 2 people (including myself) made the top 17 in at 150+ person tourney in binghamton ny this past sat (i think it was 170 something). there were only 3 belcher decks there. he made top 8 with cedrics exact list and i played 73 outa 75 cards. and i came back after going 0-2. and i happened to win one game through 3 dazes on the back of permenant mana sourses. i love you chrome mox.

[badjuju]

just so everyone knows 2 people (including myself) made the top 17 in at 150+ person tourney in binghamton ny this past sat (i think it was 170 something). there were only 3 belcher decks there. he made top 8 with cedrics exact list and i played 73 outa 75 cards. and i came back after going 0-2. and i happened to win one game through 3 dazes on the back of permenant mana sourses. i love you chrome mox.

wow grats. I hope everyone doesn't start playing this all of a sudden :X

[Phthisisity]

honestly i feel as if belcher is well positioned in the current metagame. i think our real focus should be on what is the proper board configuration for beating decks with blue. xantid swarm is not the answer. it doesn't beat counterbalance and it doesn't stop cursecatcher(the later should be as much of a problem, but i always come up against multiples). xantid swarm is too slow. it doesnt matter if you can cast it on turn one with combo in hand. i think i would rather play REB or something similar.

[sunshine]

Not needing to pay for your protection spell on the turn you combo is pretty huge, which is what gives Xantid an edge over REB or similar effects. I don't really seen Xantid being too slow unless you're plan is to Empty the Warrens and you need to race WoG. Emptying a turn earlier still doesn't outrace Explosives. If you're on the draw you're opponent might be able to get Counterbalance down (maybe even with top) but you still have a turn while he's tapped down to go off.

[Phthisisity]

i agree and that seems to be the case in testing. i think i am just bitter that i lost every game in an 8 round tourney that i resolved the bees. i also never cast the tendrils in the board. i'm not sure that the slot couldn't be something else. for reference i played cedric's list -1 ingot chewer +1 deathmark.

[sunshine]

i agree and that seems to be the case in testing. i think i am just bitter that i lost every game in an 8 round tourney that i resolved the bees. i also never cast the tendrils in the board. i'm not sure that the slot couldn't be something else. for reference i played cedric's list -1 ingot chewer +1 deathmark.

Yeah, it's biggest downside is that it's protection which is vulnerable to removal. I would anticipate most people boarding out there StPs and PtEs though.

[Phthisisity]

Yeah, it's biggest downside is that it's protection which is vulnerable to removal. I would anticipate most people boarding out there StPs and PtEs though.

you'd think so but any savy player may decide to keep it in. i played against bgw counterbalance in vestal and he kept his swords in, in anticipation of the bees. that is why i think reb may be better cause it blanks their cards. and if they do board out the removal then it is no loss for you.

another question for folks... how many cards do you feel comfortable boarding in in an MU such as merfolk?

[hi-val]

What about Vexing Shusher? It costs a mana more, but you can conceivably get it out with a Rite of Flame or something. Past that, you only need to pay a mana when they actually try to counter your spells. The downside is that I think Shusher benefits a deck that can develop its mana and make more land drops and Belcher doesn't really do that.

Another historic option is Goblin Welder, to bring back the Belcha and play nice with LED (if Welder isn't already maindecked, of course).

[Phthisisity]

What about Vexing Shusher? It costs a mana more, but you can conceivably get it out with a Rite of Flame or something. Past that, you only need to pay a mana when they actually try to counter your spells. The downside is that I think Shusher benefits a deck that can develop its mana and make more land drops and Belcher doesn't really do that.

Another historic option is Goblin Welder, to bring back the Belcha and play nice with LED (if Welder isn't already maindecked, of course).

the problem with shusher you already addressed, the problem with welder is that you only have 4 belchers where as, depending on the build, you have about 7 warrens so that kill happens alot more often. belcher kill is preferable, as it is more stable, but it doesn't always happen.