[Deck] Belcher

[Vacrix]

Wild Cantor is there to support the black. Especially when you lack Land Grant--> Bayou option you really do need a way to find the black consistently.

Yes normally I'd agree that the problem is you don't really have enough mana to play and activate. But the rituals that this lists runs are insane. Each add a net of +2 while Culling adds +3. Also, keep in mind that spare Spoils and Plunges can find you mana sources.

I admit though that its a theoretical list. I was just entertaining the idea of a list that ran Pacts instead of Land Grant.

[Ando]

Just posted a REPORT (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?18806-First-time-countering-spells-trying-to-win-Trops!) with this deck. Some bad luck in round 3 kicked me out of top 4 contention, then scooped to a guy I knew round 4 cause he had a chance to get it. The deck is good for sure, and I think it doesn't just scoop to blue, but it's tough to play against for sure.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

My list is running 4x Manamorphose and 2x Infernal Tutor MD, 1x IT SBed. I never have a problem between the 4x Manamorphose and 4x Petals allowing for black mana. I only run 2x EtW maindeck. How are you guys liking the Grim Monoliths? Is is helpful? Does the fact that it's all colorless mana suck, or does that matter much?

I consistantly miss Dark Ritual in the list, not that I've played it in Belcher before, but I'm for the most part a FT or Adn player. I really like the list and I have pretty much got all the tricks down. I'm only running one land and obv. it's a taiga. I tried a Bayou out but cut it almost immediately after it ruined my ability to win 3 games in a row. Was that just bad luck? I think not, but I'd like your opinions.

--ABC

[Ando]

My list is running 4x Manamorphose and 2x Infernal Tutor MD, 1x IT SBed. I never have a problem between the 4x Manamorphose and 4x Petals allowing for black mana. I only run 2x EtW maindeck. How are you guys liking the Grim Monoliths? Is is helpful? Does the fact that it's all colorless mana suck, or does that matter much?

I consistantly miss Dark Ritual in the list, not that I've played it in Belcher before, but I'm for the most part a FT or Adn player. I really like the list and I have pretty much got all the tricks down. I'm only running one land and obv. it's a taiga. I tried a Bayou out but cut it almost immediately after it ruined my ability to win 3 games in a row. Was that just bad luck? I think not, but I'd like your opinions.

--ABC

Monoliths are ehh, Pyretic Ritual is better I think. The being able to store mana has only come up a couple times in testing and never durring a real game.

As far as Dark Rit/Bayou goes, I don't miss Dark Ritual nearly as much as I enjoy the more consistant T1 kills even without casting Land Grant.

[Tenth]

Any new updates on this deck? I have taken it as my main legacy deck and am loving it so far.
this is my kind of deck, go big or go home!

I have been running Matt Hazard's list:
Business (11)
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Street Wraith

Mana Sources (49)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Land grant
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

Sideboard (15)
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Ricochet trap
4 Guttural Response
3 Deus of Calamity

I have seen a lot of talk about Mox Opal in the vintage forums but do you think it could work for legacy?
Anyone else play Belcher... lets work together to perfect out 75.

i will be heading out to a local legacy night shortly, let you know how it went later.

[affinitypimp]

here is the list have been playing, and all i have to say is that its awesome.

x1 volcanic island
x1 taiga

x4 LED
x4 Lotus petal
x4 chrome mox
x4 elvish spirit guide
x4 land grant
x4 goblin charbelcher
x4 tinder wall
x4 seething song
x4 desperate ritual
x4 rite of flame
x4 manaplause
x4 ponder
x4 brainstorm
x2 infernal tutor
x4 burning wish

sideboard
x1 ill gotten gain
x1 diminishing returns
x1 empty the warrens
x1 tendrils of agony
x1 goblin war strike
x1 grapeshot
x4 xantid swarm
x4 pyroblast
x1 red elemental blast

the brainstorm and ponder are so good. they can help me win games by just searchign for stuff and setting up the perfect turn 2 or 3 to go for the throat. the 8 blue spells make the deck super consistant is all i have to say about it.

[JonBarber]

here is the list have been playing, and all i have to say is that its awesome.

x1 volcanic island
x1 taiga

x4 LED
x4 Lotus petal
x4 chrome mox
x4 elvish spirit guide
x4 land grant
x4 goblin charbelcher
x4 tinder wall
x4 seething song
x4 desperate ritual
x4 rite of flame
x4 manaplause <---?
x4 ponder
x4 brainstorm
x2 infernal tutor
x4 burning wish

sideboard
x1 ill gotten gain
x1 diminishing returns
x1 empty the warrens
x1 tendrils of agony
x1 goblin war strike
x1 grapeshot
x4 xantid swarm
x4 pyroblast
x1 red elemental blast

the brainstorm and ponder are so good. they can help me win games by just searchign for stuff and setting up the perfect turn 2 or 3 to go for the throat. the 8 blue spells make the deck super consistant is all i have to say about it.

0_0

Have you played 1 land belcher? You win turns 1 or 2 90% of the time. Why would you ever need blue? Especially when you have to waste things like lotus petals for them.

No empty the warrens?? Really?

Also, read the card land grant. Volcanic Island is not a forest.

No simian spirit guide? What advantages does version offer other than unneeded cantrips and lack of win conditions?

[affinitypimp]

lol Volcanic Island says that its clearly a mountain, therefore doubling the damage belcher does.... besides that, belcher isn't even whats dangerous... its the burning wish package that allow me to wish for nice win conditions. playtest with it before u judge. but u have bad judgment anyways since u thought volcanic island wasnt a mountain

[JonBarber]

lol Volcanic Island says that its clearly a mountain, therefore doubling the damage belcher does.... besides that, belcher isn't even whats dangerous... its the burning wish package that allow me to wish for nice win conditions. playtest with it before u judge. but u have bad judgment anyways since u thought volcanic island wasnt a mountain

I edited my statement immediately after posting it. In my head I was thinking Trop would be a better replacement, but that it wouldn't double. It still isn't fetchable off land grant which is the entire point of the deck.

Regardless, 1 land belcher plays burning wish as well. I have played it, many times to many wins. How do you expect to win game 1 against blue decks without maindeck empty the warrens? Your relying on 8 very easy to counter win conditions. Your "nice burning wish win cons" are 1 empty the warrens and 1 tendrils. Good luck with that. Your board currently does nothing to deal with hate, which is 90% of its job. Your only answer to teeg/canonist is a 1 of grapeshot in the board. You have zero outs to a trinisphere, chalice, or thorn of amethyst. Without simian spirit guide, casting your pyroblasts post board is going to be much more difficult.

I think my judgments pretty good.

[affinitypimp]

Red mana is not an issue to make. i put the elvhish spirit guide cause lots of times green is actually more needed to play a tinder wall. and with the volcanic island being there, its good to goldfish it time and time again after playing a brainstorm effect only to draw it and play that land for extra mana. and hate can holny hurt you so much presideboard. its post sideboard that you have to worry about but thats why you also get those red blast effects VS blue. O i forgot to put Eye of nowhere on my list. thats part of the sideboard too in place of one of the xantid swarms

[JonBarber]

Red mana is not an issue to make. i put the elvhish spirit guide cause lots of times green is actually more needed to play a tinder wall. and with the volcanic island being there, its good to goldfish it time and time again after playing a brainstorm effect only to draw it and play that land for extra mana. and hate can holny hurt you so much presideboard. its post sideboard that you have to worry about but thats why you also get those red blast effects VS blue. O i forgot to put Eye of nowhere on my list. thats part of the sideboard too in place of one of the xantid swarms

I still see no reasons why your version is better than 1 land. You have the same sideboard plan vs blue (blasts and swarm), less rituals to cast them, and soo many more ways to lose game 1. How do you ever expect to hit double blue against a piece of hate? Chalice for zero shuts off your petals, and thorns/trinis simply kill you. 1 land plays 11 win conditions, 8 cycle effects, has a consistant turn 1.5 win, and has the same (if not better) board plan vs blue decks. What advantages do you have over this?

[JustPAT4]

Hahaha Jon Barber I love you you cantankerous little beotch.

Can I hire you to shout down all fools that plague my existance with a combination of stout logic and demoralizing insults? ...I offer extra money if the tone of your attacks is saturated in invective... Jus' sayin' :laugh:

[Koby]

I too fail to see the added benefit of Cantrips to 1-land Belcher. This deck's power doesn't come from mana, but rather being able to combo with 6 and 7 card hands.

Cards such as Manamorphose, Street Wraith, and cantrips make evaluating Keepable hands very complex and a gamble.

Thus, Brainstorm and Ponder; while powerful, don't belong in a deck that has high variability in draws.

I would advocate a 0-land Belcher list, eschewing 4 Land Grant and Taiga; but I think that the latter version is slightly more consistent.

[Tenth]

I have been considering a list that includes grim monolith, voltaic key and mox opal.
I don't have anything solid yet but it is in the works.

[popiezhius]

x1 volcanic island

If You splash blue and need blue mana, You need to play tropical island which is fetchable with land grant. All that the volcanic island will do is that sometimes the belcher shots will be non lethal and You will lose.

[marclark]

Your name is Affinitypimp

Go home

[lorddotm]

If I was a mod I would change this topic's name to: "How to Properly Feed a Troll."

[marclark]

Troll... Hungry... RAAAAWR!

Seriously though, I dont really think adding blue is the right way to go. Although blue does offer some cantrips that let you see more cards (Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder, etc.) It also a.) adds another color, which makes the deck a bit too inconsistant IMO, And b.) makes your belches worse by either having a volcanic stuck in there 90% of the time, or using trop and not always being able to Land Grant for it, with the added hurt of trop not being a mountain.

Regular R/G belcher with Taiga is consistent enough as-is. If you like you can run "free" cantrips in that deck without screwing up your mana or having to play sub-par duals in the deck. Manamorphose at least fixes your mana while also cantripping and being on color (It is also nice for pitching to Chrome Mox, while blue cards wouldn't be all that helpful).

In general though, people seem to be gravitating away from using any cantrips, as they tend to make mulligans far more difficult than normal. When only 1 out of 2 "free" cantrips are even being played in most cases, it seems to me that more cantrips aren't really what Belcher wants. Especially blue ones that can't even be cast sometimes and cost mana regardless, which could in turn slow your deck down by a turn or two.

[keys]

I would advocate a 0-land Belcher list, eschewing 4 Land Grant and Taiga.

How would you consistently get G for sideboard cards like Xantid with only ESG and Petal? I'm curious what this would look like.

Would Monolith + Belcher + Petal + Chrome + LED + Opal (24 Artifacts) be enough to activate Opal consistently? Monolith/Belcher might not count towards this because you need to burn mana like Petal to get them into play.

You could go Chrome (imprint red) -> Rite -> Monolith + Opal -> Belcher. But if that Chrome is a Petal, it wouldn't work. Although Opal could help with activation of Belcher.

Having Petal/Chrome/SSG as your only reliable initial mana sources seems risky. If you get Petal, Chrome, and Opal together, obviously it's really good.

Something like this?

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Street Wraith

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide

4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Grim Monolith

@Tenth: The problem I have with Matt Hazard's list is that Street Wraith really shouldn't count as "Business". Don't you have to mull all the time? Keeping a hand with Wraith as your only business seems like a death wish since you only have a 15% chance of drawing into EtW or Belcher after seeing your opening 7...

Also why would you play Richochet Trap? It doesn't counter Mindbreak Trap or Stifle.

[Koby]

I tested out a rough draft of 0-land Belcher yesterday with Mox Opal. Here's what I've tested:

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
3 Mox Opal
4 Belcher

4 Burning Wish
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flames
4 Tinder Wall
4 ESG
4 SSG

3 Goblin Welder
3 Guttural Response
3 Empty the Warrens

This was not enough artifacts to activate Opal consistently. Welder/LED is an interesting take on the low level of business spells, and often acts as counter bait. It also helps to beat blue decks when otherwise you're cold to them. A simple fix is to add 4 Grim Monolith in place of Manamorphose which does nothing aside from fuel BWish/LED strategies. I sampled about 10-15 sample games against random Legacy decks on MTGO, and the draws have been less than stellar.

This list needs more testing.

[keys]

You need Monolith if you want to play Opal. Ideally there would be another artifact initial mana source to replace Tinder Wall... I think you're diluting the deck too much with Welder. Turning on your opponent's creature removal isn't fun either.

[Tenth]

I think Voltaic key could help with Opals metelcraft drwaback and get really interesting with Grim Monolith.

I think I will test out this list a bit.

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
4x Tinder Wall
4x Rite of Flame
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Elvish Spirit guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chrome Mox
4x Mox Opal
4x Voltaic Key
4x Street Wraith / 4x Burning Wish / 4x Manamorphoses

28 artifacts if you count Belcher. I'll report back after testing.

[keys]

I'm curious if it works, but I think the narrowness of Key will prove to be ineffective. Also, I would probably cut Tinder Wall before I cut Seething Song. It's by far the weakest ritual with only 8 green sources in the deck (unless you count Opal).

[median]

You'd want to cut chrome mox first, very little can be imprinted with 28 artifacts.

[Tenth]

@keys I think you are right about Voltaic Key I goldfished about 15 games and it was only useful once.
I am now looking at this list:

4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens

4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Elvish Spirit guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Manamorphoses

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Grim Monolith
4x Chrome Mox
4x Mox Opal

I would really like to fit one more set of artifacts in but I can't seem to find the right card. I considered chromatic star but if I am going to go off turn one it just eats up 1 mana.

[Dm225]

This is what I'm thinking about building, thoughts on the sideboard?

//Artifact

4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

//Creature

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

//Instant

4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song

//Sorcery

4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

//Land

1 Taiga

//Sideboard

4 Ingot Chewer
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Grapeshot
1 Hull Breach
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree

[median]

That looks decent, I would try and work in guttural response in the side board. I like it more than swarm.

[median]

Sorry for the double post, but i just had an idea, has anyone though of leyline of anticipation as a solution to the mirror/ other fast decks?

[Dm225]

That looks decent, I would try and work in guttural response in the side board. I like it more than swarm.

How many "anti-blue" cards are reasonable? Would 8 be too many? Because that seems to be the worst matchup obviously.

[GoldenCid]

How many "anti-blue" cards are reasonable? Would 8 be too many? Because that seems to be the worst matchup obviously.

Concerning that...i'm intruducing myself into belcher and i wanted to know which are the wosrt matchups...I know discard is bad but counter decks and ever worst right?

[keys]

Concerning that...i'm intruducing myself into belcher and i wanted to know which are the wosrt matchups...I know discard is bad but counter decks and ever worst right?

The worst matchups would be Counterbalance and tempo decks, followed by Stax and TES.

CBTop shuts you off rituals, and FoW/Spell Snare/Counterspell are the nail in the coffin. Go for early EtW if you can game 1. Game 2 you have to anticipate Firespout... You can bring in blasts and wish for Reverent Silence if CB hits play.

Tempo decks like Can Thresh, New Horizons, and Merfolk (to some extent) are a pain since they also pack Stifle. Xantid Swarm is key here.

Stax/Dragon Stompy can get lucky with turn one Trinisphere/Chalice and shut you out. Dragon Stompy will bring in sweepers like Volcanic Fallout. You want Ingot Chewers and/or Shattering Sprees.

TES can also be a difficult matchup because they play Duress and Silence as well as a clock that isn't much slower. You don't really have a board against other storm combo... just hope to go off turn 1. Maybe Leyline of Anticipation, as median suggested?

Those are your bad matchups. Good luck!

[GoldenCid]

TES can also be a difficult matchup because they play Duress and Silence as well as a clock that isn't much slower. You don't really have a board against other storm combo... just hope to go off turn 1. Maybe Leyline of Anticipation, as median suggested?

Those are your bad matchups. Good luck!

Thx!!!
Maybe against TEs or storm combo (solidarity) X. swarm coulb be an option to stop their silence / counters.

1 more question, what version has shown to be more stable? 1 or 2 lands?

[JonBarber]

Thx!!!
Maybe against TEs or storm combo (solidarity) X. swarm coulb be an option to stop their silence / counters.

1 more question, what version has shown to be more stable? 1 or 2 lands?

1 Land. It also fizzles much much less

[GoldenCid]

Ok....i wanted to give a chance to 2 land belcher and i found that it's very stable if you have the apropiate skills. I provides you more chances to go oof via belcher (one turn kill) with a minimun probability of revealing a land before the first 10 top cards. Beside, it gives you more opportunitis in the side. What do you think?

This is my list:



// Lands
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MM] Land Grant
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [U] Dark Ritual
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [9E] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 3 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [FNM] Duress
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach

[popiezhius]

Ok....i wanted to give a chance to 2 land belcher and i found that it's very stable if you have the apropiate skills. I provides you more chances to go oof via belcher (one turn kill) with a minimun probability of revealing a land before the first 10 top cards. Beside, it gives you more opportunitis in the side. What do you think?


I have tested similar version (-4 manamorphose, +4 chrome mox) some time ago. It seems that it wins more often win turn one than One land belcher without black, but its main weakness - 14 win conditions seems too many, quite often You need to mulligan, because You have hands with 3 wincons. I would play Rgb without tutors (or maybe with 1 or 2 tutors only), only with rituals as black cards.

P.S. 1 Infernal tutor should be in sideboard, be it 2 land or 1 land version.

[GoldenCid]

I would play Rgb without tutors (or maybe with 1 or 2 tutors only), only with rituals as black cards.


Nice...what would you cut and what would you add??

[Tenth]

Thx!!!
Maybe against TEs or storm combo (solidarity) X. swarm coulb be an option to stop their silence / counters.

1 more question, what version has shown to be more stable? 1 or 2 lands?

I have to play against TES almost every week in my meta and I have found 4x Mindbreak trap to be the best sideboard option.
It does slow me down but if my win condition is duressed it gives me time to draw another. If I am not duressed and they go for the win it can just shut them down and buy me a few turns while they rebuild there hand.
With minbreak trap in hand other combo players have to play slower and more cautious, an orims chant or multiple duress's are usually a must for them to win.

[GoldenCid]

I have to play against TES almost every week in my meta and I have found 4x Mindbreak trap to be the best sideboard option.
It does slow me down but if my win condition is duressed it gives me time to draw another. If I am not duressed and they go for the win it can just shut them down and buy me a few turns while they rebuild there hand.
With minbreak trap in hand other combo players have to play slower and more cautious, an orims chant or multiple duress's are usually a must for them to win.

Respect to 1 or 2 lands...i ave found that 2 lands has a little risk of revealing a taiga before the first 10 cards. But on the other side i showed to be a bit versaliter than 1 land. In my experience after the my question you quoted with 1 land i always went off consitently in T1 or 2 via warrens (80% EtW - 20% GB).
With 2 land it's a bit displaced to t2 (lot of times you go off in t1 but not as much as 1 land) going off via belcher - warrens (50%-50%) whch is better.

[popiezhius]

Nice...what would you cut and what would you add??
-1-3 infernal tutor, -3-0 manamorphose, +3-4 chrome mox to Your list.
There is another possibility - try 3 Spoils of the vault in Your list instead of infernal tutor, however I did not test it myself. It cost 1 mana less and does not require hellbent, but I'm not sure about its drawback.

[GoldenCid]

-1-3 infernal tutor, -3-0 manamorphose, +3-4 chrome mox to Your list.
There is another possibility - try 3 Spoils of the vault in Your list instead of infernal tutor, however I did not test it myself. It cost 1 mana less and does not require hellbent, but I'm not sure about its drawback.

Yeah my bad...i make a mistake in my posted list where it says 4 Manamorphose i should say 4 Chrome mox.

On spoils its similar to Plunge into darkness but i'm not sure if they are as good as the tutor...if i have to choose i'd choose plunge.

So...i don`t know if i cut 1 Tutor what could be a good replacement??1 Pyretic ritual? 1 Cabal ritual?1 Wild cantor?

[defector]

This thread is so massive I don't know where to jump in. I just started playing this list as well as joined the site, I used to be a vintage player so I saw this deck back in the Mirrodin days, and decided to give it a whirl. I don't think I'm qualified to add to the discussion now, but I was wondering can anyone point me towards match up analysis for this list? I have read some vintage stuff but nothing legacy specific.
thanks!

[Ozymandias]

Here's a slightly outdated primer I made for Belcher a while back.

The List:

1x Taiga
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x Grim Monolith
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Tinder Wall
4x Land Grant
4x Rite of Flame
3x Empty the Warrens
4x Burning Wish
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Manamorphose (Could be Pyretic Ritual, but sometimes you need G, UU, B, or BB)
4x Seething Song

Sideboard:
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Tendrils of Angony
1x Pyroclasm
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Ingot Chewer


Hurr Belcher Primer

1) Mulliganing Decisions
at 7: Keep any hand capable of
a) Burning wish with 4 mana floating- (on the draw you can have 3)
b) Empty the Warrens for 10 goblins (8 on the draw)
c) Goblin Charbelcher with maximum 2 topdecked mana source required to get there (on the draw 2)
at 6:
Keep any of the above, as well as ETW for 8, or burning wish needing 1 extra mana source.

at 5:
Keep any of the above and any hand with less than 3 win conditions

at 4:
Keep anything except 4 win condition hands.

2) When do you go off?
The answer is basically as soon as possible preboard. You WILL lose to FoW 8/11th of the time, and it's probably not worth trying to draw cards for Daze mana unless you have ETW, as you give your opp turns to establish other defenses. Remember that even if you are stopped by a force, correct playing of mana sources (never remove an SSG except as part of casting spells orplaying abilities, don't crack permanent mana sources unless you have to).

Postboard, I would go to 6 looking for Empty or Xantid Swarm, but if you don't have it, just go for it anyway.

3) What are your wish targets for?

Empty the Warrens-your basic Burning Wish Target. most time you will have 6 mana to go Bwish-Empty for 10-14 goblins.

Infernal Tutor-Helps with BWish-LED basically. If you have 4BR after LED/BWish, makes your ETW +1 storm. If goblins will not get there (like versus Tabernacle or something) you can tutor for charbelcher. (Don't get cute with Itutor if your opp has an island-Daze or Spell Pierce can ruin your day if you don't keep the extra mana open) If you can generate 4BBBR, it gives you +2 storm for a Tendrils (This is relevant because you need 9 storm+Tendrils to kill--mostly after a Diminishing Returns, but sometimes with multiple LEDs/Manamorphose). If you have 8B (Bwish+3 LEDs, probably) you can IT for Charbelcher and win.

Tendrils of agony--if your opponent somehow manages to damage himself, like with fetchlands, you can win easy with this. Also, On the draw, you might have 8-9 spells, depending on how many SSG/ESG and Manamorphoses you end up with. If it's high enough, BWish-Tendrils for 20 is an option.

Diminishing Returns--when you won't get there with Warrens and only have 4 or 5 mana so IT-Charbelcher isn't an option, or when you need to try and win THIS TURN and don't have enough storm or mana to IT-Charbelcher or Tendrils (like if you are facing down Emrakul or something.)

Remember, you can only generate B and U mana through LED and manamorphose so keep that in mind when you try to win "exotically"

Answers:
Reverent Silence-Leyline of Sanctity, Moat, Elephant Grass, and other troublesome enchantments. Remember you need Taiga for this to be free.

Shattering Spree-Ensnaring Bridge, Thorn of Amethyst and other troublesome artifacts.

Pyroclasm-Gaddock Teeg, Meedling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist (not on the same term) other people's ETWs, and other creature annoyances.


3) Sideboarding.

In general, you want to cut 4 Manamorphose for 4 Xantid Swarm in most matchups. Grim Monolith allows you to "bank" mana in certain situations, which is better than +1 Storm IMO. Bear in mind that you now are totally reliant on LED for your "exotic" wins, but such is life. You will still get rocked by Mindbreak Trap out of nonblue decks, so might as well belt and suspenders. If your opponent instead has Chalice or Trinisphere, go with Ingot Chewer. If they have both blue and artifact disruption, you are in for a bumpy ride, and should SB 2-4 Chewer 4 Swarm for 4 Manamorphose 2-4 Grim monolith. Obviously versus other combo you probably want to board nothing. Nowadays, you might want to cut Chewer from the board for Guttural Response, at which point you board out 4 manamorphose 4 monolith in every match where you see U and do nothing otherwise.

[defector]

Thanks!! That's an awesome start!!

[JJ_JKidd]

What's the ideal SB for Belcher (no BWish) deck in an aggro meta? Is the GenCon 2nd place Belcher still viable? I dont like his Sb though that's why im asking. Thanks!

[defector]

Ideally you should be able to just go off before they kill you. In an aggro meta you are the combo deck, they need to answer you. That being siad, expect aggros decks to bring in hate cards against you. The biggest ones are probably "Chalice" "Null Rod" or maybe "Meddling Mage" or "Gaddock Teeg." I'd look at Krosan Grip to deal with enchantment and artifact hate and Grapeshot to deal with the creatures. Not playing Burning Wish is a problem here, but you should win game one, so you have to chances plus mulls to pull it off. Good luck!

[JJ_JKidd]

Ideally you should be able to just go off before they kill you. In an aggro meta you are the combo deck, they need to answer you. That being siad, expect aggros decks to bring in hate cards against you. The biggest ones are probably "Chalice" "Null Rod" or maybe "Meddling Mage" or "Gaddock Teeg." I'd look at Krosan Grip to deal with enchantment and artifact hate and Grapeshot to deal with the creatures. Not playing Burning Wish is a problem here, but you should win game one, so you have to chances plus mulls to pull it off. Good luck!

In my non-Wish list I have the ff as SB:

3 Deus of Calamity
2 Pyroblast
2 REB
3 Xantid Swarm
5 ?????

I want to try the non-Wish build first at it seems that that is not a complicated build for beginners like me because you just win via ETW or Belcher. I just need 5 cards for the free SB slot though. I dont know what to place. Thanks

[Dark Ritual]

LED and manamorphose aren't your only blue source. There is also lotus petal. Just a little nitpick.

For those 5 slots I suggest guttural response's. You can remove ESG to play them is the reason. And add in a wishboard really, wish isn't that hard to use. Game 1 it usually grabs EtW. Game 2 and 3, EtW is an option as is reverent silence as is diminishing returns. Infernal tutor is simple to use; if you have boat loads of mana, as in 9+ mana, get charbelcher and kill with belcher. It typically isn't that hard to get hellbent with it. And secondly, I suggest you max out pyroblasts before you play REB because you can pyroblast any card including a land to get hellbent or raise the storm count if you have 5 mana and an EtW in hand. Burning wish + LED is sick sauce. Also tendrils is a somewhat rogue choice in the SB most builds don't run it some do. The play I like against combo decks without ill-gotten gains is a first turn tendrils for 16 or something so AdN doesn't work at all since they have such a low life total :smile:

Also, why do people play deus of calamity and other such cards in the board? The man plan seems pretty terrible in this deck since a deus of calamity is essentially a charbelcher; counter it and you generally lose.

[JJ_JKidd]

LED and manamorphose aren't your only blue source. There is also lotus petal. Just a little nitpick.

For those 5 slots I suggest guttural response's. You can remove ESG to play them is the reason. And add in a wishboard really, wish isn't that hard to use. Game 1 it usually grabs EtW. Game 2 and 3, EtW is an option as is reverent silence as is diminishing returns. Infernal tutor is simple to use; if you have boat loads of mana, as in 9+ mana, get charbelcher and kill with belcher. It typically isn't that hard to get hellbent with it. And secondly, I suggest you max out pyroblasts before you play REB because you can pyroblast any card including a land to get hellbent or raise the storm count if you have 5 mana and an EtW in hand. Burning wish + LED is sick sauce. Also tendrils is a somewhat rogue choice in the SB most builds don't run it some do. The play I like against combo decks without ill-gotten gains is a first turn tendrils for 16 or something so AdN doesn't work at all since they have such a low life total :smile:

Also, why do people play deus of calamity and other such cards in the board? The man plan seems pretty terrible in this deck since a deus of calamity is essentially a charbelcher; counter it and you generally lose.

Okay I will probably go with the Bwish. Will try to post list asap. Thnks guys.

[defector]

I agree 100% about Deus being a bad idea. For the sidebaord go to 4 Xantid Swarms, thsi deck draws poorly so if your facing control you want the redundancy of your best anti control card. You'll be happy with the Burning Wish, also look at "Regrowth" in the board as wish tech, love it! Anyway, good luck with it!

[Ozymandias]

You can't really afford to get too cute with your Wish targets or SB plans. Any answer that costs more than 1 mana costs too much, IMO.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Well, I'm new to the discussion, but here's what I've been playing lately. It's a bit off the beaten track of Belcher, but I think you might find it refreshing.

Maindeck: 60

2x EtW
4x Belcher

1x ESG
2x Wild Cantor
3x Tinder Wall
3x SSG

3x Summoner's Pact
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
4x Burning Wish

4x Pyroblast

4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED

2x Manamorphose
4x Rite of Flame
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

1x Taiga

SIDEBOARD: 15

3x Xantid Swarm
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x IGG
1x D. Returns
1x EtW
1x Reverent Silence
1x Hull Breach
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Pyroclasm
1x Meltdown
1x Flame Slash/Innocent Blood
1x Duress

It's a weird build, however, its been fairly smooth sailing. Lmk what you guys think.

--ABC

[defector]

Does pact really work for you? That looks risky to me, as you don't have that many creatures to fetch out and if you don't go off that turn than you definitely die. Do you play in a really control heavy meta? Your not kidding as that is the weirdest belcher list i have seen yet. Do you usually pact for tinder wall or are you looking at cantor? Anyway, definitely interesting!

[JonBarber]

Well, I'm new to the discussion, but here's what I've been playing lately. It's a bit off the beaten track of Belcher, but I think you might find it refreshing.

Maindeck: 60

2x EtW
4x Belcher

1x ESG
2x Wild Cantor
3x Tinder Wall
3x SSG

3x Summoner's Pact
3x Infernal Tutor
4x Land Grant
4x Burning Wish

4x Pyroblast

4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x LED

2x Manamorphose
4x Rite of Flame
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song

1x Taiga

SIDEBOARD: 15

3x Xantid Swarm
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x IGG
1x D. Returns
1x EtW
1x Reverent Silence
1x Hull Breach
1x Infernal Tutor
1x Pyroclasm
1x Meltdown
1x Flame Slash/Innocent Blood
1x Duress

It's a weird build, however, its been fairly smooth sailing. Lmk what you guys think.

--ABC

This looks like the online versions that ran pact because land grant isn't online. I feel like with this build you'll often times have too many dead cards floating around.

[JJ_JKidd]

I had some sick hand in a simulated playtest yesterday which pretty much convinced me to go the BWish way. I really cant remember all the details, only this:

I Wished for Infernal Tutor after cracking LED which gave me 9 mana floating: BBB and RRRRRR (9 mana)

Cast Tutor for Belcher with B and R so I had BB and RRRRR (7 mana) left

Then I cast and pop the Belcher.


My SB basically looks like this now

1 ETW
1 Hull Breach
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Xantid Swarm
4 REB
1 I cant remember the other one.

I only have 3 Swarms btw bec I cant find the 4th one. I also dont know how IGG works with this deck. Can someone please explain?

[defector]

The whole idea with Ill Gotten Gains is to create a short loop that ramps up your mana and storm count. IGG on stack sac LED, recur LED, B Wish, Seething Song, then seething B wish, sac LED in response, ETW for +4 more storm than before. Or swap in an Infernal Tutor and run that same combo except tutor for belcher. Most of these decks are about abusing LED, IGG is just another tool to use it, get cards back and use it again. Question for you, how is Goblin War Strike working for you in the side, I love that card in Belcher! It just makes the race with goblins so much less stressful and lets you worthwhile B Wish targets with the ETW plan. How has your testing been?

[JJ_JKidd]

The whole idea with Ill Gotten Gains is to create a short loop that ramps up your mana and storm count. IGG on stack sac LED, recur LED, B Wish, Seething Song, then seething B wish, sac LED in response, ETW for +4 more storm than before. Or swap in an Infernal Tutor and run that same combo except tutor for belcher. Most of these decks are about abusing LED, IGG is just another tool to use it, get cards back and use it again. Question for you, how is Goblin War Strike working for you in the side, I love that card in Belcher! It just makes the race with goblins so much less stressful and lets you worthwhile B Wish targets with the ETW plan. How has your testing been?

I experienced something like this, with 7 Mana float and a ETW at hand, I Wished (5 mana left) for GWS and I used RRRR to cast ETW which was @ my hand then I sued the 1 mana float to cast GWS :tongue:

[JJ_JKidd]

I experienced something like this, with 7 Mana float and a ETW at hand, I Wished (5 mana left) for GWS and I used RRRR to cast ETW which was @ my hand then I sued the 1 mana float to cast GWS :tongue:

*used not sued

[Secretly.A.Bee]

This looks like the online versions that ran pact because land grant isn't online. I feel like with this build you'll often times have too many dead cards floating around.

Which cards would those be? I run 3 Infernal Tutor so that when the occasion that pithing needle names Belcher and I'm playing something that puts men on the field that hinder my 12-14 EtW tokens, I still have a win-con of 14-18 men, which, lets face it, is a much more comfortable number. The only thing I can think of other than those is the pacts you mentioned. However, they are extremely useful. The only other thing I may do with them is drop them down to two and put in the 4th SSG.

I hate drawing EtW. Hate it. It's almost never useful for me. It's my plan to drop one from the mainboard list, running 1x and then the 1 in the board, and putting a Tendrils in the mainboard so that I can igg for an actual win.

One last change I am definitely thinking of changing is -1 Pyroblast, +1 Manamorphose. My only problem is that I don't know where to put the Blast in my board because I like all of my SB choices. I think I may drop the Flame Slash slot for it as I already have Clasm for the problem critters.

It's not like I just threw this list together, it's been changing slightly over long periods of playtesting and I feel that instead of just running the traditional R/G build with tons of playsets, it should be more capable of handling some of it's more difficult matchups. I understand that sometimes a matchup is just bad (such as anything with 3sphere), but when you can improve your matchups, why wouldn't you?

This is just my first post here, not my first build. I also play SI, QSI, PSI,DDFT, DDANT Hybrids, FT, I have been playing FT since the before the days that it ran Street Wraiths and Death wishes, even before. I play hybrid lists of FT and TES, and also Belcher. I'm not being offended, but I would like a deeper explanation of what you think might be a better option for the issues you have with my list.

I'm glad I've sparked some discussion. Also, I don't play online, so its interesting to me that there are lists that reinforce some of the ideas I've had.

Also, on another note defector:


The whole idea with Ill Gotten Gains is to create a short loop that ramps up your mana and storm count. IGG on stack sac LED, recur LED, B Wish, Seething Song, then seething B wish, sac LED in response, ETW for +4 more storm than before. Or swap in an Infernal Tutor and run that same combo except tutor for belcher. Most of these decks are about abusing LED, IGG is just another tool to use it, get cards back and use it again.

This doesn't work since BW is rfg when it resolves, making it impossible to loop without multiple BW in hand. This is the main reason I run as many Infernal Tutors as I do in my maindeck.

-ABC

[GoldenCid]

I don't like rely the generation of B mana to just spells...why don't you run bayou??

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm trying it out as I type actually. I didn't want to, but alas...

[defector]

Two lands stings. Go ahead and test it, but trust me two lands will let you down in tourneys and cost you games. It sucks. I am moving towards cutting black entirely and just going red/green. It sucks losing the best rit in the game, but its more consistent. Still testing, but my intuition is that its a good move. We'll see.

[kicks_422]

It's been a "good move" since years ago. No other version has put up consistent results aside from R/G Belcher with Burning Wishes.

[GoldenCid]

But isn't RGB more stable post board??

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think something is off on my list. It's comboing different ways consistently on turn two, but I think I want Dark Rits. I haven't been using them, but it feels like I want them in place of something. Looking at: Tinder Wall.

Thoughts? I feel like I'm twisting Belcher and SI into one list.

[median]

I don't think that's the way to go. My advise is to play rg. The biggest problem is casting your rituals. Diversifying them would just be more problematic and there's not enough of the right cards to play rb or gb.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I think that the +1 mana rituals are crap, and as such I'm trying to get to the +2 rits. +1 rits include Desperate Rit, Pyretic Rit, the first Rite of Flame is a +1 rit, Spirit Guides are +1 and Tinder Wall is +1, as is lotus petal and chrome Mox, only chrome mox is worse (albeit necessary as start-off mana). LED is a +3 rit with a huge drawback, only good for two purposes: activating belcher, or popping in response to IT or BWish. Song is a +2 accelerant, but you have to get to 3 mana first. Dark Ritual is a +2 rit with the ability to be played off of a start-up mana producer. Lay it down with an LED and an IT in hand and you have yourself a first turn Belcher unactivated. I think that's better than 10-12 goblins.

With all this in mind, I don't understand why the list is RG instead of BR. I guess that's the question that has me doing all this questioning. What does green give the list that black can't do better. If the answer is Land Grant, I think that's dumb. If the answer is Tinder Wall, it's worse, and if it's ESG, I quit belcher.

-ABC

P.S.-This upset me today with my playtesting so bad that I'm now drunk.

[lorddotm]

I think that the +1 mana rituals are crap, and as such I'm trying to get to the +2 rits. +1 rits include Desperate Rit, Pyretic Rit, the first Rite of Flame is a +1 rit, Spirit Guides are +1 and Tinder Wall is +1, as is lotus petal and chrome Mox, only chrome mox is worse (albeit necessary as start-off mana). LED is a +3 rit with a huge drawback, only good for two purposes: activating belcher, or popping in response to IT or BWish. Song is a +2 accelerant, but you have to get to 3 mana first. Dark Ritual is a +2 rit with the ability to be played off of a start-up mana producer. Lay it down with an LED and an IT in hand and you have yourself a first turn Belcher unactivated. I think that's better than 10-12 goblins.

With all this in mind, I don't understand why the list is RG instead of BR. I guess that's the question that has me doing all this questioning. What does green give the list that black can't do better. If the answer is Land Grant, I think that's dumb. If the answer is Tinder Wall, it's worse, and if it's ESG, I quit belcher.

-ABC

P.S.-This upset me today with my playtesting so bad that I'm now drunk.


You plan on playing Belcher without Land Grant? Hope you have fun mate, taking 5 IMS out and adding in Rituals that don't produce the colour you want (Red) seems like the game winning plan.

[MGC_player]

I can tell you from experience, that I prefer the R/G list more than ones that use B. I've also tried reconfiguring it to R/B and it just failed miserably since I could never reliably get the mana colors I wanted. Desperate Ritual actually has something I've seen most people overlook which is the splice ability. That has saved me multiple times when playing this deck.

For reference, this is the deck I am testing in real life
Land: 1
Stomping Ground - Don't have Taigas yet, but I'll get there eventually

Kill stuff: 12
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Burning Wish
2 Goblin Bushwhacker

Accelerants and mana sources: 47
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
3 Wild Cantor
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

Sideboard
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
2 Shattering Spree
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
3 other things

I've increased my turn 1-2 kill percentages with the new configuration swinging for 20 turn 1 is possible and swinging for 20 on turn 2 is a great surprise and is unexpected. It happens quite often since no one expects you to play a kicked Bushwhacker after storming for 10 goblin tokens.

I have heard of 0 land belcher and it doesn't play land grant so you can try that route as well, though I haven't really seen a list for it. I think the reason it is R/G is that the green pseudorituals like tinder wall can also produce red mana which is the main color you need in the deck and free spells like Land grant pull your land out of your library to make the belcher consistent. The addition of green isn't for a single card but more for the cumulative effect that it has on the deck that makes it incredibly consistent.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I didn't mean that I didn't think that Land Grant shouldn't be in the list, but rather that if green was chosen as a secondary color in the list based soon that card, it's a pretty lousy reason to continue on with green as opposed to just using lands that have green in them, and choosing a better secondary color. Excuse the bad wording of my previous post (I did add the drunken clause, in my defense).

After clearing my head this morning with a couple cups of coffee, I sat down and really analyzed my list compared to others without black. I came to a final list that I think is finally to my liking, and am now getting ready to playtest. Here's the list, sorry to be posting so many, but they change and I need input. Without further introduction, the list I'm most satisfied with:

RBg Belcher

7
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens

7
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor

4
4 Pyroblast

16
4 Land Grant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

2
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

20
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond

4
4 Manamorphose

Sideboard: 15
4 Duress (Thoughtseize when I can find them)
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Meltdown

--ABC

[GoldenCid]

I 1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Empty the Warrens



Is really needed this toolbox??

[lorddotm]

2 lands seems shaky too.

All in all, the consistency of RG doesn't seem to be worth losing for the power of RBg.

[GoldenCid]

Hey! What's up! Im trying to introduce myself into a tournament with RG Belcher with this list:

1 Taiga
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Street Wraith

SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 Autumn's Veil
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer

What i need is a brief guideline of how to side in the deck (it's very difficult to me). Off course if you have comments about main they will be welcomed.

[Apple]

I'd have 4 Xantid swarm, and side them in against blue control in place of street wraith. Seething Song is also unlikely to resolve against anyone with counters as well.
Ingot chewer count can be upped, and use them against anyone with chalice, needle and the like.

I'd leave the rest of the deck alone since it's the core of it. Autumn's veil usually just end up getting eaten by a counterspell. Daze should be played around when against fish.

Anyway, what has a very good matchup against this deck? My meta is rampant with blecher.

[defector]

Any of your core blue based control decks and stax lists have favorable to very favorable match ups versus belcher. As someone pointed out in an earlier post, you lose to FOW 8 out of 11 times with this deck. I think a little testing is all it takes to convince anyone that the deck simply can't support three colors. It doesn't have enough resources to do any real mana fixing either. This list wants to go off in the first seven or get Belcher on board for a turn 2-3 activation. I've tried to get the rits in and its just not working. This is the current list I am running, and so far I am pretty happy with it.

CantBelch 1.0

Mana Base-43-

Taiga X1
Elvish Spirit Guide X4
Simian Spirit Guide X4
Land Grant X4
Lotus Petal X4
Chrome Mox X4
Lion’s Eye Diamond X4
Tinder Wall X4
Rite of Flame X4
Desperate Ritual X4
Dark Ritual X1
Pyretic Ritual X2
Manamorphose X4
Seething Song X4

Kill-11-
Goblin Charbelcher X4
Burning Wish X4
Empty the Warrens X3

Creatures-4-
Wild Cantor X4

Sideboard-15-
Xantid Swarm X4
Guttural Response X4
Infernal Tutor X1
Empty the Warrens X1
Goblin War Strike X1
Pyroclasm X1
Reverent Silence X1
Regrowth X1
Hull Breach X1

This deck sides like a SOB, almost its whole game planis an "all in" combo. First out are seething song and cantor for xantid and guttural. Those are the only cards I side in and then only against control everything else I just race or look for wish utility. Everything subject to change, but this is whats going to my next weekly tournament:) With Survival out its kind of wide open right now, so have no idea what I'll be running into. Once the meta re adjusts boards will probably change a bit. I love the maindeck here, cantor lets you hold the one extra mana from seething song on for the next turn and smooth out the tinder wall draws. So far very happy with this, any ideas or responses please let me know.

[FieryBalrog]

Your list is 63 cards- the mana sources add up to 48, not 43 (which would have been 2 cards short). What would you cut? I wanted to try the list so I cut 2x Pyretic Ritual 1x Desperate Ritual as those seemed the weakest.

[Ozymandias]

The 4 Wild Cantor and 1 Dark Ritual are both mistakes IMO. I would cut them and add two more pyretic ritual, which may or may not be better than Grim Monolith in that slot. Double Tinder Wall draws, while sometimes awkward, are highly unlikely, and so Cantor is not really worth it--especially since it is pretty much +1 storm and nothing else in R/G belcher. If you want to bank mana, Grim Monolith has to be better than Cantor, even if it is colorless mana. If you want rits, then you need a Bayou.

I think your wishboard needs Diminishing Returns for times when 10 goblin tokens are not going to get there and you don't six mana to IT->belcher. Regrowth isn't good enough, because any time you're casting it, you are just hemhorraging mana and effctively setting yourself multiple turns back. Goblin War Strike is basically win-more. Hull Breach is better off as Shattering Spree+Simplify/Reverent Silence, because mana is at a premium. I personally like SB tendrils but you probably don't need it.

[defector]

I completely screwed up my cut and paste. I don't know how I managed that one.

One Land Belcher

Mana Base-45-

Taiga X1
Elvish Spirit Guide X4
Simian Spirit Guide X4
Land Grant X4
Lotus Petal X4
Chrome Mox X4
Lion’s Eye Diamond X4
Tinder Wall X4
Rite of Flame X4
Desperate Ritual X4
Manamorphose X4
Seething Song X4

Kill-11-
Goblin Charbelcher X4
Burning Wish X4
Empty the Warrens X3

Creatures-4-
Wild Cantor X4


This is the list I am running. I would prefer grim monolith in the wild cantor slot, I just don't have them yet. I don't like tendrils in the board, but probably should go back to the one diminishing returns. I haven't given up in regrowth yet, but I think your right.

[defector]

One thing in defense of Cantor, Chrome Mox is a terrible necessary evil in this deck and Cantor mitigates C-Mox a lot.

[GoldenCid]

Why monolith would be so relevant??

[defector]

The reason why I like Monolith is that you get mana that sticks around. A resolved Monolith is a Belcher activation in waiting. It's also all the colorless mana that ETW needs. It takes two to cast and gets you three, so it fits your acceleration game plan. So thats the benefit of Monolith. Now that things that suck about Monolith. Its another two cost spell that nets you one in a deck that doesn't need another two cost that nets you one. It also has no color help and no synergy with Chrome Mox. That being said I wonder if two Cantor and two Monolith might be a good configuration. This deck can be very frustrating in that you can get a hand full of acceleration, but all your acceleration costs two and you only have one SSG or ESG or Land Grant. This makes you mull or take pretty heavy risks that you'll draw into enough to kick off. I look at belcher almost like a chemistry experiment where you have catalysts and reactants and products. The catalysts are the zero costs or the RFG for Mana spells, the reactants are the standard acceleration spells and the Burning Wishes and the products are the wincons in ETW and Belcher. There seems to be a pretty string consensus on "products" 11 wincons is the way to go, but the correct configuration of catalysts and reactants is where the debate and fine tuning is. I hope that helps to answer you question, at least my opinion of it. Forgive the rambling:)

[GoldenCid]

It also has no color help and no synergy with Chrome Mox.

I think that if you run monolith you should cut your mox.

[defector]

You might be right. I'm going to try different configurations of 4 Cantor, 4 Monolith, 2/2, 3/1 and see what happens. I just can't seem to find what I like the most in that slot. Street Wraith is OK, Cantor is OK, Monolith is OK, Pyretic is OK. Nothing seems spectacular. The rest of the list seems pretty tight, its just this last slot thats giving some trouble.

[Ozymandias]

There's nothing wrong with Street Wraith--I ran it myself in that slot in the 1-land build before monolith was unbanned. But the problem is it's only a mana source 80% of the time--the rest of the time it's a second win condition, which blows.

Other nice thing about monoliths:
It allows you to play chicken with your opponent, even when you have no intention of driving off the cliff that turn. So you can run Monolith out and pass if it resolves--something that does not work with Pyretic Ritual.
It stores more mana than wild cantor, and gives you a positive amount that turn if you need it.
It also lets you keep playing hard-to-remove mana sources to the board, which can be important if you need to topdeck into a win-condition--say, if your opponent thoughtseizes you for your wincon t1.

One thing I was thinking is that with 4 belcher, 4 mox, 4 petal, 4 Monolith, and 4 LED, the Goblin Welder plan is close to workable. Not sure it's actually better than Response, though.

[defector]

I haven't even gotten to testing with welder:) With that many artifacts in the list you could start looking at mox opal. I agree with everything you say promoting monolith, the only thing I don't like is that it costs 2. The deck has plenty of two cost spells, cantor at one is a great bridge to Tinder Wall, +1 storm, and mana that sticks around a turn. I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just not convinced your right. I hate looking at hands that just can't quite kick off. Plus it hurts Chrome Mox a lot to run four more no colors and Chrome Mox is hard enough in this deck as is. I'll give the cantor route some shots and then do some more more testing, played a numch today and was really liking cantor, though I agree that slot is the weakest in the deck. I am saying the jury is still out:)

[JJ_JKidd]

2nd place with Belcher yesterday, 76 players. Will post report in a while.

[JJ_JKidd]

Finish: 2nd out of 76

Decklist:

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Taiga
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinder Wall
___
60

Sideboard:

3 Xantid Swarm
4 Guttural Response
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Hull Breach
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens

Round 1: Goblins

Game 1: He wins die roll. I Tendrils for 10 on my turn. GG. Win.
Game 2: Belcher T3. GG. Win.

Kinda funny because in our table, there were 2 other Belchers. Unluckily, the other one was paired to Merfolk while the other one was paired to Faeries. Dodged 2 blue decks there.

After Rd.1: 1-0

Round 2: Mono Black

Game 1: He wins die roll. He Hymns taking out 1 of 2 Burning Wish in my hand. I still managed to Empty the Warrens (ETW) for 16 though. Win.

Game 2: He plays Hymn again taking out the lone BWish. I pass the turn. He plays Nighthawk. Drew ETW and I cast ETW for 16 again. He plays Bob. I attack and pass turn. He takes 2 to Bob and casts Tombstalker. Turn comes back to me I attack and game is over. W

I was lucky enough to have avoided his Ratchet Bomb(s)

After Rd.2: 2-0

Round 3: Affinity

Game 1: I play and ETW for 16 which went all the way. W

Game 2: He lays down lots of artifact creatures while I ETW for 10 which was not enough. What I should have done was wait for another mana source and cast double ETW which could have netted me 24 tokens instead. He Berserks his Ornithopters twice and I lose. L

Game 3: I play and ETW for 10 again but he manages to outrace me. I was down to a top deck for the first time in the day. I had 8 tokens and he was down to 6 but he had 2 Ravagers, an Ornithopter with a Cranial Plating and many more. Id surely die on his next turn and need to draw a BWish. My board was a lone Taiga and a LED and my Hand was an ESG and a Desperate Ritual. I drew the card, placed it face down on the table, patted it hard, placed it in my hand, and it was a…………………………… BWish!!! Lol wtf! I tapped Taiga, removed ESG from game and cast Desperate Ritual. I played the card and Wished for Goblin War Strike for 8! W

After Rd.3: 3-0

Rd.4: Slivers

Game 1: I ETW for 10. Win

Game 2: We has a lot of counters. On to Game 3. Lose

Game 3: I managed to lay down 2 Xantid Swarms. I ETW for 10. Win

My only blue matchup of the day!

After Rd.4: 4-0

Rd.5: Zoo

Game 1: T1 belcher + LED (Land Grant, Rite of Flame, Desperate Ritual, Desperate Ritual, Belcher, LED). Didn’t even see his deck. Win

Game 2: He lands Canonist and Suppression Field. I destroy both via Hull Breach but it was too late. Lose

Game 3: ETW for 16 on turn 1. W

After Rd.5: 5-0

Rd. 6 and 7: ID; ID

Top 8

Quarterfinals: Ad Nauseum Tendrils (ANT)

Game 1: Win die roll and play first casting 16 tokens via 3 Rite of Flames. He storm counts which got me worried. Nothing happened apparently. Win

Game 2: He plays first and Duress(es) my Chrome Mox but I had a Wish in my hand. I managed to ETW for 14. He plays Brainstorm and Ponder. We managed to get into turn 4 as he Chants with Kicker. On my turn I play Belcher and activate, he was down to 6 so the chances that the Goblin Charbelcher will go through is very very high and it did. W

Semis: Prize split


It was a good day overall. It was my first time to play the deck in a big event. Many thanks to my teammates and to my girlfriend who brought me some food and meds since I was not feeling well at that time. The Top 8 (in no particular order) was:

ANT – 3
Zoo
MonoU Merfolk
Rock
White Weenie
Belcher (Me)

[defector]

Good showing!! That's almost the exact list that I run. I love the War Strike in the board! Well done. Any thoughts about what you'd change board wise? I like 4 Xantid and 3 Guttural, did you find it hard to get Xantid whan you needed it?

[Ozymandias]

I took a top 4 split out of 40 yesterday.

//Maindeck
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Stomping Ground (Loaned my Taigas out)
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinder Wall
//Sideboard:
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Guttural Response
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Shattering Spree
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens

I decided against monolith mostly because I traded them away, but Pyretic was fine all day.

R1 v. Junk: G1: He seizes my belcher after I lose the die roll. I rip one two turns later and win the game on turn 4
Boarding: -1 Seething Song, +1 Infernal tutor (It's nice to have another win-con MD vs. discard.)
G2: He mulls to 4, I make 10 Goblins, and that's that.
R2 v. Vampires: G1: I mull to 6. I see two win conditions and keep, and he makes a mistake, Thoughtseizing me for the belcher instead of the Lotus Petal which was my only initial red source. I warrens for 10, and his hexmages and depths are a turn too slow.
Boarding: +1 Infernal tutor, -1 Seething Song
G2: He mulls to 5 and doesn't get anything going.
R3. The guy playing Ur with Moons, Jaces, Trinketmage->explosives/Pneedle, forces, snares, and pierces doesn't want to mull to Force, so we I.D. +EV man, +EV.
R4 v. Lands G1. I slowroll for 3 turns till I can 1-shot him with Belcher.
No Boarding,
G2. He leads with Forest/exploration/thicket, and I decide to show him my moves and instead of safely ETWing for 14 and possibly losing to chasm/tabernacle/EE, I decided to show him my moves and diminishing returns with RRG floating. Sure enough, I turn up Belcher/LED for the t1.
R5 v. Necrotic Ooze combo. I lose the 4th roll on the day. He mulls to 4 looking for lands/force, after shipping a 7 with thoughtseize/brainstorm/land. It wouldn't have mattered: my hand was stacked, with ETW, Land grant, Petal, Petal, ESG, Tinder Wall, Seething Song, and belcher on the topdeck, so I beat everything but Force/Thoughtseize.
Boarding: -4 Seething Song, -4 Pyretic Ritual, +4 Xantid Swarm, +4 Guttural Response.
I keep a 7 that belches (SSG, SSG, Manamorphose, Desperate Ritual, Chrome Mox, Belcher, Petal), since I know I'm probably getting seized on turn 1. He does, and takes belcher. I draw rite of flame and pass. He Brainstorms, fetches, and seizes again-taking manamorphose. I draw guttural and pass. He casts personal tutor for buried alive. I need to draw livelivelive to win this. Sho-nuff, I rip Belcher. Petal, rite, ritual, Mox imprint guide, Belcher. "Force?" "Guttural Response pitching SSG."
Nice. Life. He buries, and now it's a race of reanimation versus mana--which I win.
R6. ID
Quarterfinals versus monoblack aggro-control--kind of like "the gate" but with Port, Ritual and Sinkhole. Also, no Hymn (Only thing I disliked?)
G1: I know he's basically cold to goblins, so when I win the die roll, I ETW for 8 and that's all she wrote.
Boarding: -1 Song, +1 IT
G2: I keep a 3-wincon (1 of each), 4 mana hand, knowing that I can probably beat a thoughtseize. He blind Therapies and hits desperate ritual. I rip a mana source, correctly read him for an answer to Goblins ( I knew he had ratchet bomb) and play a belcher sans mana. I keep drawing win conditions and do not get there before dying.
Boarding: +1 Song, -1 IT
G3: Mox Remove SSG, rite, ritual, song, belcher, LED activate, deal 34. Yahtzee!

[JJ_JKidd]

Good showing!! That's almost the exact list that I run. I love the War Strike in the board! Well done. Any thoughts about what you'd change board wise? I like 4 Xantid and 3 Guttural, did you find it hard to get Xantid whan you needed it?

Thanks! Im thinking of the 4th Swarm actually. My problem is that I only have 3 Swarms. I used to have IGG on the boards but since I rarely have the chance to make it work, I just replaced it with Hull Breach. As for the Xantid, when the Slivers match came, 2 are immediately in my opening 7 + a Land Grant. So I risked the Grant and cast it and cast Xantid, which eventually resolved.

[defector]

I gotcha, makes sense. I think the four Xantids are ideal on the other handif you can draw like that just run two:) I have a Hull Breach inmy board as well, I don't own shattering sprees which I will cut teh breach for when I get them. Anyway, good day, those are just hair splitting differences, glad to see the list come out and perform well!

[defector]

To Ozymandias:

Good results at the tourney! I like the list, that seems to be the current standard for the archetype, and I like it. You can totally run the life loss duals in this list, if we ever develop a legacy budget forum Belcher would have to be on it. Surviving the die roll can be huge with this deck and you managed that all day:) Well done! Thanks for posting your sb choices, I think this deck sideboards poorly as it is so tight and front seven dependent, but i am starting to agree with you that Seething is one of the first cards out. Anyway, good job!!

[Ozymandias]

I might get 1-3 pyroblasts into the board, cutting swarms and responses--just to diverisfy my counter-hate, make swords less effective, stuff like that. Obviously replacing Grounds with Taiga.

I wonder if this deck has the juice to go to SCG and win 6 or 7 of 8 rounds. Given how roundly it stomps anything without a force in the opening 7, it might.

[GoldenCid]

Thanks! Im thinking of the 4th Swarm actually. My problem is that I only have 3 Swarms. I used to have IGG on the boards but since I rarely have the chance to make it work, I just replaced it with Hull Breach. As for the Xantid, when the Slivers match came, 2 are immediately in my opening 7 + a Land Grant. So I risked the Grant and cast it and cast Xantid, which eventually resolved.

Congratz!!

Some questions:

1- Do you consider Xantid swarm the best card in your side?
2- Do you side it in together with guttural response?
3- Which is the key beetwen running pyroblast or guttural? Just the R/G cost?

[IrishLegend]

Hi Guys
Good job on the recent finishes.
Im building belcher and I know for the most part how the deck works. What I dont get is how you guys sideboard. Could you guys explan this to me please.

[Ozymandias]

Basically, you take out the worst rituals, if your opponent has counters or chant. Song makes 2 mana, but it requires three to play, practically screaming "Blow me out." Pyretic has similar blowout issues, and is strictly worse than Desperate ritual. Then, you bring in all of your counter-hate (basically everything that isn't a singleton.)

Postboard, you want to play out the bare minimum of cards, but try to have mana open for a disruptor.

[JJ_JKidd]

Congratz!!

Some questions:

1- Do you consider Xantid swarm the best card in your side?
2- Do you side it in together with guttural response?
3- Which is the key beetwen running pyroblast or guttural? Just the R/G cost?

Best card (in the blue match up because the best card, best per se, is ETW) on the side is Xantid Swarm because its like a Duress in which it begs to be countered. I also side it in with Guttural taking out 2 Pyretics, 2 Songs, 1 LED, 1 Manamorphose and 1 Desperate. The third question, because of the R/G cost maybe.

Well im not yet well versed with regards to the deck as I used to play Zoo before. I dont want to claim that these assumptions are the BEST but these are what I felt were correct based on playtesting, and hours reading Beclcher stuff on the net.

Congrats btw to Ozzy!

[defector]

I agree with you for the most part, but I can't side out a LED, it drives 4 Belchers and 4 Wishes. I will cut one Land Grant or 1 Chrome Mox first. I typically bring in 7 cards vs control 4 swarm and 3 guttural and I cut 2 seething, 1 grant, 1 chrome,1 desperate, and then struggle with the last two slots:) To Ozy, I don't want to sound like a hater, but I have my doubts about this deck going 6 or 7 in a major, we die to splash aimed at Goblins(plague) and stupid needle. It's hard to find a list that can't side 2-6 against us, on the other hand in this post survival meta, who knows, but I'm leery of this deck going that far. Don't get me wrong I like it, its hella fun to play, but one ofthe ant/tes lists is probably the better long haul combo for now, in my opinion anyway.

[JJ_JKidd]

I agree with you for the most part, but I can't side out a LED, it drives 4 Belchers and 4 Wishes. I will cut one Land Grant or 1 Chrome Mox first. I typically bring in 7 cards vs control 4 swarm and 3 guttural and I cut 2 seething, 1 grant, 1 chrome,1 desperate, and then struggle with the last two slots:) To Ozy, I don't want to sound like a hater, but I have my doubts about this deck going 6 or 7 in a major, we die to splash aimed at Goblins(plague) and stupid needle. It's hard to find a list that can't side 2-6 against us, on the other hand in this post survival meta, who knows, but I'm leery of this deck going that far. Don't get me wrong I like it, its hella fun to play, but one ofthe ant/tes lists is probably the better long haul combo for now, in my opinion anyway.

Well, the GenCon Belcher almost won it all. This deck is kinda under the radar I think, and I managed to put up a good result just in time before Goblin (Plague) and Merfolk (Needle is to Vial) hate cards increase in proportion. Well I think it depends on the meta youre playing when you choose to play the deck. Again, im not an expert at the deck but I do have common sense. When your meta is Gobs, Merfolk, CBTop or any black variants, I think the deck will somehow struggle to put up a decent result because of the presence of SBs against these decks mainly Needle, Plague, etc.

But if its more of Zoo and a bit of Gobs, Merfolk then it might put up a fight.

[defector]

This is true, and if its a big enough tourney you'll see all of it, so what the hell, if you like the list and it feels good I'd say go with it. No deck is free of bad match ups, and belcher can sometimes just play solitaire anyway:)

[JJ_JKidd]

This is true, and if its a big enough tourney you'll see all of it, so what the hell, if you like the list and it feels good I'd say go with it. No deck is free of bad match ups, and belcher can sometimes just play solitaire anyway:)

Very well said with regards to the solitaire! Heck, ive even had more hours playing with myself than actual playtesting with my team mates!

Anyway, ive just wanted to ask for some response if this play is a right play:

Situation

1. Preboard on the play. You assume that your opponent is not blue and has no hand disruption.
2. Hand: Lotus Petal, Tinder Wall, Pyretic Ritual, ESG, Seething Song, Belcher, SSG
3. Remove ESG for Wall, then sac it for Pyretic and cast Seething Song then Belcher while you still have Petal and ESG in your hand.
4. The question: Is this a logical play? Is it logical to land Belcher and not activate it (because you only have the SSG and the Lotus left which will only produce 2) and just hope to top-deck an additional ritual which will get you to 3 which would then activate the Belcher?

[Joe_C]

Seething song gives you RRRRR. play belcher with RRRR, pitch ssg, lay down petal, use floating R from song, sac petal, win

[Namida]

Assuming your opponent has no Force, and no Discard, the difference seems almost marginal. However, it should be noted that you couldn't cast a topdecked Seething Song if you cast Belcher on turn one, and if for some reason your opponent has maindeck Pithing Needle or some other way to deal with Belcher on turn one, you'd be walking right into it. What advantage do you have to casting Belcher on turn one anyway, other than to make Force of Will the only answer for it, and/or play around discard?

Edit: I read that post like five times and thought that hand could make seven mana, but went with the original post... I guess I'm talking about a hypothetical hand where you could cast Belcher and had two mana on your next turn, then.

[JJ_JKidd]

Seething song gives you RRRRR. play belcher with RRRR, pitch ssg, lay down petal, use floating R from song, sac petal, win

Lol i didnt see that. Thanks for correcting me. How about this instead:

Lotus
Mox
Pyretic
Tinder
ESG
SSG
Belcher.

So Mox imprint ESG then cast Tinder Wall, sac Wall for Pyretic, then remove ESG then Belcher. So you have two mana sources left on your next turn.

[JJ_JKidd]

Seething song gives you RRRRR. play belcher with RRRR, pitch ssg, lay down petal, use floating R from song, sac petal, win

Lol i didnt see that. Thanks for correcting me. How about this instead:

Lotus
Mox
Pyretic
Tinder
ESG
SSG
Belcher.

So Mox imprint ESG then cast Tinder Wall, sac Wall for Pyretic, then remove ESG then Belcher. So you have two mana sources left on your next turn.

[JJ_JKidd]

Assuming your opponent has no Force, and no Discard, the difference seems almost marginal. However, it should be noted that you couldn't cast a topdecked Seething Song if you cast Belcher on turn one, and if for some reason your opponent has maindeck Pithing Needle or some other way to deal with Belcher on turn one, you'd be walking right into it. What advantage do you have to casting Belcher on turn one anyway, other than to make Force of Will the only answer for it, and/or play around discard?

Edit: I read that post like five times and thought that hand could make seven mana, but went with the original post... I guess I'm talking about a hypothetical hand where you could cast Belcher and had two mana on your next turn, then.

Yes you got it. I dont have the deck with me at the moment so its difficult to make these simulations.

[JJ_JKidd]

Assuming your opponent has no Force, and no Discard, the difference seems almost marginal. However, it should be noted that you couldn't cast a topdecked Seething Song if you cast Belcher on turn one, and if for some reason your opponent has maindeck Pithing Needle or some other way to deal with Belcher on turn one, you'd be walking right into it. What advantage do you have to casting Belcher on turn one anyway, other than to make Force of Will the only answer for it, and/or play around discard?

Edit: I read that post like five times and thought that hand could make seven mana, but went with the original post... I guess I'm talking about a hypothetical hand where you could cast Belcher and had two mana on your next turn, then.

Yes you got it. I dont have the deck with me at the moment so its difficult to make these simulations.

[JJ_JKidd]

Assuming your opponent has no Force, and no Discard, the difference seems almost marginal. However, it should be noted that you couldn't cast a topdecked Seething Song if you cast Belcher on turn one, and if for some reason your opponent has maindeck Pithing Needle or some other way to deal with Belcher on turn one, you'd be walking right into it. What advantage do you have to casting Belcher on turn one anyway, other than to make Force of Will the only answer for it, and/or play around discard?

Edit: I read that post like five times and thought that hand could make seven mana, but went with the original post... I guess I'm talking about a hypothetical hand where you could cast Belcher and had two mana on your next turn, then.

Anyway thats true whats the point of casting it when you wont explode? SO the question now is will you or will you not cast?

[Namida]

Well, your hypothetical situation is rarely realistic, unless you've been scouting.

If I am completely blind to what my opponent is playing, I would cast the Charbelcher. Force of Will/Mindbreak Trap are the only things that can prevent the Belcher from resolving on the play, and only one of those actually happens. Discard on your opponent's first turn is also something you want to avoid.

[Ozymandias]

I would always, always, always cast belcher on turn 1. So many things can happen in the intervening turn to let your opponent put up some shields. Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, Chalice, Brainstorm into extra force, trinisphere stifle mana up, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

One thing is pretty clear about this deck: You will draw mana. Fully 45 of the 56 non-cantrip cards in the standard R/G lists are mana--that means that over 75% of the time, your next card will give you a mana. I regularly keep belcher hands that require a topdecked mana source, because it's a lot harder to kill a belcher than it is to stop it, in a lot of situations.

Also, remember to husband your mana. Try to cast the most expensive spells first, and don't get greedy.

[JJ_JKidd]

I would always, always, always cast belcher on turn 1. So many things can happen in the intervening turn to let your opponent put up some shields. Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, Chalice, Brainstorm into extra force, trinisphere stifle mana up, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

One thing is pretty clear about this deck: You will draw mana. Fully 45 of the 56 non-cantrip cards in the standard R/G lists are mana--that means that over 75% of the time, your next card will give you a mana. I regularly keep belcher hands that require a topdecked mana source, because it's a lot harder to kill a belcher than it is to stop it, in a lot of situations.

Also, remember to husband your mana. Try to cast the most expensive spells first, and don't get greedy.

Noted. Answers my question

[JJ_JKidd]

I would always, always, always cast belcher on turn 1. So many things can happen in the intervening turn to let your opponent put up some shields. Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Thoughtseize, Chalice, Brainstorm into extra force, trinisphere stifle mana up, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

One thing is pretty clear about this deck: You will draw mana. Fully 45 of the 56 non-cantrip cards in the standard R/G lists are mana--that means that over 75% of the time, your next card will give you a mana. I regularly keep belcher hands that require a topdecked mana source, because it's a lot harder to kill a belcher than it is to stop it, in a lot of situations.

Also, remember to husband your mana. Try to cast the most expensive spells first, and don't get greedy.

Noted. Answers my question

[defector]

I agree, I always cast the Belcher especially in a situation as you describe. With two sources up you have ever ritual except seething song, four LED's and a chrome mox+ one turn. That's better than turn one lackey as far as I am concerned. Something like almost 46 outs to go off either that turn or the next one. Turn three kills are fine with me:)

[Dionos]

Why do you keep petal in your hand instead of 2 spirit guide?

Unlike petal the spirit guides can't be countered on t2 and can't be taken out by duress.

[Ozymandias]

I would run petal out, and leave it uncracked, actually.

[Dark Ritual]

Always run your artifact mana out there in case of discard. There's no point not to; if they have artifact destruction turn 1, what will they aim it at? Charbelcher if they're a good player. If they're a bad player, they aim it at the petal lol and a topdecked LED wrecks them. But really this deck aims to win as fast as possible so casting charbelcher turn 1 is ALWAYS the right play. Force can blow you out sure but they only have a 40% chance of having it. When they get a blue mana, they have brainstorm or ponder or stifle which hurts you a lot. Along with spell pierce and daze.

[dontbiteitholmes]

There seems to be some confusion as to what comes out when 7x sideboard cards go in from the last page. Why doesn't everyone just post what they take out as this seems to be the only real issue with the deck that hasn't yet been resolved.

Seems to me like 4x Seething Song, 3x Pyretic Ritual is a good option but some people seem to disagree. I could definitely see cutting other stuff especially Manamorphose as it doesn't give +1 mana like the other Rituals but sometimes you need it to put on Mox or cast Walls.

[defector]

I usually cut Seething X4, Land Grant X1, Chrome Mox X1. The first six is pretty easy, the seventh is usually a coin flip between a Manamorphose, or a Desperate Ritual. I think Seething is too hard to get off against control. I want to avoid mulling as much as possible game two and three so I cut the Mox and Grant cause two in the opening hand is hell. I'm no expert on this list but that seems to work best for me.

[JJ_JKidd]

My sideboarding vs the only blue-match up.

Out

2 Morphose
2 Seething Song
2 Pyretic Ritual
1 random $h!t

In

3 Xantid (helped. for details, see my report above)
4 Guttural

[Silent Requiem]

Hello all,

I've written an article about Belcher, but I wanted an experienced pilot to check the article over before it is published. Ideally, I'm looking for someone with a solid tournament track record and 2+ years playing the deck.

Any volunteers?

-Silent Requiem

[Final Fortune]

SBing out rituals before manamorphose is terrible, Seething Song is the only ritual I'd SB because a counter on Seething Song is usually GG compared to a counter on Pyretic Ritual.

Actually, Manamorphose is terrible in general, I don't understand why any one would play Manamorphose over Grim Monolith because the deck really doesn't need color-fixing and relying on Manamorphose to draw into mana backfires far more often than it's worth.

[OurSerratedDust]

I apologize if I had missed this somewhere in the thread, but does anyone know what Belchers turn 1 win percentage is? If not, I'll figure it out myself. I would consider a large EtW or Belcher activation a "win."

[GoldenCid]

I apologize if I had missed this somewhere in the thread, but does anyone know what Belchers turn 1 win percentage is? If not, I'll figure it out myself. I would consider a large EtW or Belcher activation a "win."

I'd say 80%...divided in 60% warrens + 20% belcher via.

@Silent Requiem: I'm not an expert but i'd like to see your article.

[JJ_JKidd]

I'd say 80%...divided in 60% warrens + 20% belcher via.

@Silent Requiem: I'm not an expert but i'd like to see your article.

I would also like to see the article. I have like 2 months of Belcher so far. However, the first tournament with the deck (76) resulted in a 2nd place finish.

I would also like to inform everyone that im currently making a sample-hand for a turn-1 win w/Belcher w/LED, without, among others. Its pretty painstaking. Some of my examples are listed below:

1. Turn 1 Win (w/Land Grant) – The presence of Land Grant assures a win. This differs from opening hands without Land Grant as a blind Belcher might hit a Land even before dealing lethal damage.

1.1. With LED

1.1.1. Land Grant, LED, LED, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Burning Wish

- Land Grant for Taiga (R)
- Rite of Flame (RR)
- 2nd ROF (RRRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRRR)
- Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor (RRRR)
- LED for RRR (RRRRRRR)
- 2nd LED for BBB (RRRRRRRBBB)
- Tutor for Belcher (RRRRRRRB)
- Cast Belcher using RRRR (RRRB remain)
- Activate using 4 remaining mana

1.1.2. Land Grant, LED, Elvish Spirit Guide, Tinder Wall, Desperate/Pyretic Ritual, Seething Song, Belcher

- Land Grant for Taiga (G)
- Tinder Wall, then sac (RR)
- Pyretic/Desperate Ritual (RRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRR)
- Cast Belcher (R)
- LED
- Activate Belcher w/LED

1.1.3. Land Grant, LED, Rite of Flame, Pyretic/Desperate Ritual, Seething Song, ESG/SSG, Belcher

- Land Grant for Taiga (R)
- Rite of Flame (RR)
- Pyretic/Desperate Ritual (RRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRR)
- Belcher (R)
- Activate Belcher w/LED

1.1.4. Land Grant, LED, Lotus Petal, Tinder Wall, Tinder Wall, Belcher, ESG/SSG

- Land Grant for Taiga (G)
- Lotus Petal for G (GG)
- Tinder Wall, sac (GRR)
- Tinder Wall, sac (RRRR)
- Belcher
- Activate Belcher w/LED

[JJ_JKidd]

Suggestions ^^ are welcome as always =)

[kicks_422]

And... what do you intend to accomplish with this? If it's for a primer for new players... Well, belcher is already easy enough to learn without such a primer.

[JJ_JKidd]

And... what do you intend to accomplish with this? If it's for a primer for new players... Well, belcher is already easy enough to learn without such a primer.

Its basically to show the sample hands which will lead to T1 win.

[Hopo]

Its basically to show the sample hands which will lead to T1 win.

Why would you want to do that? There are like shitloads of minor variations of a god hand that will get you there. (ESG or SSG? petal or SSG or ESG?) I guess the others are wondering the same as me: why bother? Everybody knows that a first turn belcher is good, as is 10+ tokens. You hardly need to bore anyone to death with monotonous sample hands to prove that. Like kicks said, it's not like this is the most difficult storm deck to pilot.

[tangram]

1.1. With LED

1.1.1. Land Grant, LED, LED, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Burning Wish

- Land Grant for Taiga (R)
- Rite of Flame (RR)
- 2nd ROF (RRRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRRR)
- Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor (RRRR)
- LED for RRR (RRRRRRR)
- 2nd LED for BBB (RRRRRRRBBB)
- Tutor for Belcher (RRRRRRRB)
- Cast Belcher using RRRR (RRRB remain)
- Activate using 4 remaining mana

You always go for EtW.
I play T.E.S. for sometime now and I agree Hopo: Belcher is pretty easy to play. G1 you just need to mulligan until you can get a win condition is hand. G2 is where things might complicate.
So if the primer really needs updating is regarding how to sideboard vs the various deck around.

[JJ_JKidd]

Its a turn 1 win so why wouldnt you go for it?

[tangram]

Because not everyone uses Infernal Tutor in their sideboard. Though I agree with you that it does bring added flexibility.

[JJ_JKidd]

Most often I have +1 spell count with it if you search for the EtW in your deck.

[Silent Requiem]

Thanks for your interest in the article, guys. I was PM'd by someone I knew and I sent them the article a couple of weeks ago but they have not gotten back to me yet. At this stage the several Belcher pilots I have tried to contact have fallen through. Guess they fizzled. :tongue:

I'll try and get the article posted tomorrow. While it is an intro article, it's not a "primer" in the typical sense. It's for new Storm pilots that are serious about choosing the right deck for them. You can read the earlier articles here:

http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-becoming-a-storm-pilot-by-silent-requiem/
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-anatomy-of-a-storm-by-silent-requiem/
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-ant-101-by-silent-requiem/

-Silent Requiem

[GoldenCid]

Thanks for your interest in the article, guys. I was PM'd by someone I knew and I sent them the article a couple of weeks ago but they have not gotten back to me yet. At this stage the several Belcher pilots I have tried to contact have fallen through. Guess they fizzled. :tongue:

I'll try and get the article posted tomorrow. While it is an intro article, it's not a "primer" in the typical sense. It's for new Storm pilots that are serious about choosing the right deck for them. You can read the earlier articles here:

http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-becoming-a-storm-pilot-by-silent-requiem/
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-anatomy-of-a-storm-by-silent-requiem/
http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2010/12/storm-academy-ant-101-by-silent-requiem/

-Silent Requiem

I insist on your article :)

Btw, in my country is coming a big tournament in 2 weeks, do you thinks that belcher (1 land) is a good canditate for it?

I'd play this list (suggestions are needed and very welcome!)

1 Taiga
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Grim Monolith

SB: 3 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 Hull Breach
SB: 1 Reverent Silence
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Goblin War Strike
SB: 2 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Pyroclasm

I'd like some recommendations for side besides...

THX!!!

[The Rack]

I would rather have Shattering Spree than Ingot Chewer in the board. Pyroclasm isn't necessary, you should race aggro easily and it will kill your tokens. Hull Breach is over kill as you will rarely have RG to use for that. I use 3 SHattering Spree in my board with 4 Xantid Swarm and 2 Pyroblast with the rest being wish. Also, I think you need Chrome Mox in there. Permanent mana sources are really valuable in the deck.

My 2 cents.

[Damoxx]

Pyroclasm isn't there for aggro matchups. You run pyroclasm to take out teeg/canonist. The shattering spree vs ingot chewer is pretty much dependant on what artifacts you are trying to hit. If you don't want clasm, run deathmark instead.

Chewer is great against CotV while spree does hit chalice, but you need to spend at least 2 on the spree in order to hit the chalice. Spree is AWESOME against a 3sphere because the 3 you pay aloows you to blow up three artifacts, while paying 3 for chewer gets you only one artifact. Generally I haven't found the 1 mana difference to be all the problematic, so I'd go with spree.

My board the last time I played belcher (4-5 months ago):

4 Xantid
4 Gutteral Response
1 EtW
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
3 Shattering Spree
1 Tendrils
(I may have had reverent silence in place of hull breach)

[Mr. Headshot]

1.1. With LED

1.1.1. Land Grant, LED, LED, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Burning Wish

- Land Grant for Taiga (R)
- Rite of Flame (RR)
- 2nd ROF (RRRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRRR)
- Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor (RRRR)
- LED for RRR (RRRRRRR)
- 2nd LED for BBB (RRRRRRRBBB)
- Tutor for Belcher (RRRRRRRB)
- Cast Belcher using RRRR (RRRB remain)
- Activate using 4 remaining mana

I'm a new belcher-player and I don't understand how you can be able to cast Infernal Tutor after you cracked a LED. I thought discarting your hand was part of the cost the play LED? May i missing something...:eyebrow:

[NesretepNoj]

1.1. With LED

1.1.1. Land Grant, LED, LED, Rite of Flame, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Burning Wish

- Land Grant for Taiga (R)
- Rite of Flame (RR)
- 2nd ROF (RRRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRRR)
- Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor (RRRR)
- LED for RRR (RRRRRRR)
- 2nd LED for BBB (RRRRRRRBBB)
- Tutor for Belcher (RRRRRRRB)
- Cast Belcher using RRRR (RRRB remain)
- Activate using 4 remaining mana

I'm a new belcher-player and I don't understand how you can be able to cast Infernal Tutor after you cracked a LED. I thought discarting your hand was part of the cost the play LED? May i missing something...:eyebrow:

It is just because, that the example is poorly explained. This is how it works:

- Land Grant for Taiga (R)
- Rite of Flame (RR)
- 2nd ROF (RRRR)
- Seething Song (RRRRRR)
- Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor (RRRR), in response: LED for RRR (RRRRRRR), 2nd LED for BBB (RRRRRRRBBB)
- Tutor for Belcher (RRRRRRRB)
- Cast Belcher using RRRR (RRRB remain)
- Activate using 4 remaining mana

[Mr. Headshot]

Thanks NesretepNoj, that explains it.

[Silent Requiem]

After far too long, here is a link to my Belcher article.

Enjoy (http://www.manaleak.com/mtguk/2011/03/storm-academy-belcher-101-by-silent-requiem/).

-Silent Requiem

[leegoo]

Nice Article Requiem.

Have loved belcher for some time.. never gotten around to playing it though, as I always felt like it was "easy mode." compared to some of the other combo decks. That said, I've changed my tune. I'm going to rock the 1 land at my next local and give my brain a break from Solidarity and ANT.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Good article. I love playing Belcher, and I've gotten pretty good with it over the past 6 months of some fairly intense testing. I've been messing around with Infernal Tutors a lot in the MB, I like 2 along with a full set of Wishes, but I don't run the second land. I cut back a bit on the EtW by one, with 2 in the MD and 2 in the side. I would like to point out that Desperate Ritual is better than Pyretic for the simple fact of Arcane on a 4-of in a list. It is actually relevant sometimes, and that makes it better in my opinion. The art sucks, but what ya gonna do?

I also occasionally run a Tendrils in the sideboard, along with an IGG or two, and a 3rd IT in the sb as well. Black is certainly worth looking into if the "classic" build is getting a little boring or is too straightforward, not enough bend in it's resilency.

--ABC

[sperry023]

Hey all -- I'm just getting into Legacy and currently live in a Legacy-free area. I've been lurking around the site for a month or so reading discussions on a lot of decks to get a feel for the format, and I'm in the process of building several decks to get other people into the format.

I'm a huge combo junky and I love how unfair Belcher can be. Since I'm not really able to test, the best I can do is goldfish and crunch some numbers for other people to use. For those who haven't done this, the way you figure out your probability of drawing a certain card (or type of card) in a specified number of draws is to find the probability that it is NOT your next card and multiply by the probability of it NOT being the following card, remembering that your deck is now one card less. Then do that a number of times equal to the number of cards you want to draw for the test. That will give you probably of NOT drawing the card (call this x), so the percentage of drawing the card is (1-x)*100.

First I wanted to see the probably of winning with Belcher with Taiga still in the deck (playing the 1 land version). Since revealing 10 non-Taiga cards will give 20 damage, I calculated the odds of not revealing Taiga in the top 10 cards. If you are able to activate it with 53 cards remaining in the deck:
(52 / 53) * (51 / 52) * (50 / 51) * (49 / 50) * (48 / 49) * (47 / 48) * (46 / 47) * (45 / 46) * (44 / 45) * (43 / 44) = 0.811320755
or to go a couple cards deeper:
*(42/43)=.79245283
*(41/42)=.773584906
*(40/41)=.754716981
*(39/40)=.735849057

So if you have drawn 7 cards (including Belcher) with no Taiga or Land Grant, the chance you will deal 20 with Belcher is 81.1%.
8 cards = 79.2%
9 cards = 77.4%
10 cards = 75.5%
11 cards = 73.6%

The other thing I wanted to test was the probably of drawing a kill spell (4 Burning Wish, 4 Belcher, 3 Empty the Warrens) if you don’t have one in your opening 7 (I realize that the general recommendation is to toss the hand back if you don’t have the kill, but I was curious of the numbers). I figured that the minimum requirement was to draw one in your next 3 cards, which can mean several different turns depending on whether you play or draw and whether or not your hand has one or more Manamorphose. Starting with 7 cards in hand, the chance of NOT drawing a kill in the following three cards is:
(42 / 53) * (41 / 52) * (40 / 51) = 0.490053786
and to go a little farther:
*(39/50)=.382241953
*(38/49)=.296432535
So you will find a kill in the top 3 cards 51% of the time, top 4 61.8% of the time, and top 5 70.4% of the time.

edit: The chances of NOT drawing a kill card in your opening 7 is 22% and the chances of not drawing a kill in 6 is 28%.

Next is the chances of topdecking a “free” mana of a specific color to start a ritual chain, say you need a green for Tinder Wall or a red for Rite of Flame. In this case your “live” cards are 1 Taiga, 4 Land Grant, 4 of the appropriate Spirit Guide, 4 Lotus Petal, and if you have an extra card of the color you need, 4 Chrome Mox.
Without a card in hand to pitch to Chrome Mox:
(40/53)=.754716981
*(39/52)=.566037736
*(38/51)=.421753607

So you will topdeck the appropriate mana in 1 card 24.5%, in 2 cards 43.4%, in 3 cards 57.8%.

With a card in hand for Chrome Mox:
(36/53)=.679245283
(35/52)=.457184325
(34/51)=.30478955

So you will topdeck the appropriate mana in 1 card 32.1%, in 2 cards 54.3%, in 3 cards 69.5%.

Do with this what you will -- it was just fun to look at the numbers.

[tangram]

Great number crunching. Much appreciated. Thanks mate ;)

[Mikeleroi]

Nobody wrote about it so... What about the new free spells? Maybe blue one deserves a try, substitute for street wraith?

+1 storm for free:

Gitaxian Probe
Sorcery - Common
Look at target player's hand.
Draw a card.

[Infinitium]

Shame that the information part of it is almost useless seeing as Belcher rarely have the luxury of adapting its playstyle. The possibility of running up to 12 free cantrips does make me want to dust off Recross the Paths again though.

[michaelq]

I picked up Belcher off the internet - someone had already built and sleeved the deck, so all I had to do was learn how to play it. I gold fished for a few hours and had a long phone call with my friend Bryce who shared with me a number of insights on playing Belcher - most importantly, 1) under what circumstances to mulligan and 2) when to hold back for fear of countermagic.

After disseminating some clever misinformation on our google group that I was going to be playing Merfolk (Mwa-ha-ha), I sat down across from Steven, who was playing Merfolk. He joked that I was probably playing Belcher and just dissemination some clever misinformation that I was going to be playing Merfolk. This was confirmed when I took more than 20 seconds to decide whether to keep my opening hand.

Say what you will about Spell Pierce and Force of Will, in my opinion the absolute worst thing about the Merfolk matchup is Cursecatcher. He provides the extra, cheap and persistent countermagic that really makes this Belcher’s nightmare matchup.

After some initial countermagic, I was able to storm out and empty the warrens for 8 or 10 tokens, but they were not enough to get past Steven’s mounting army of fish.

Game two, I boarded in 4 Xantid Swarm (Throughout the day, I always board out Manamorphos, by the way, since that’s my flex slot). Game two, I stuck a Xantid Swarm, then the following turn, went off with protection (keeping an extra mana in my pool at all times for his Cursecatcher). He was overwhelmed by Goblin Tokens.

Game three, I kept a hand without a win condition because I had Xantid Swarm. Normally all keepable hands have both a win condition and an initial mana source (a Lotus Petal, Taiga or Spirit Guide). Xantid Swarm came down and Stephen had no removal, so I was able to attack, then play out Tinder Walls, Burning Wish, and other set-up spells without fear of countermagic. By the time, I had a win condition, however, Stephen had 4 fish out, and even with 12 tokens, I was unable to get through. I decided to hang back, blocking with tokens. His Coralhelm Commander took to the sky, and as my life dwindled I was forced to block with Xantid Swarm. Had I had an extra turn or two, I might have ripped a Charbelcher, but I imagine by then he would have had countermagic. Anyway, I was thrilled to have won even one of these games.

0-1

Round 2: Versus Kevin with Landstill (Pernicious Deed version)

Game 1: Kevin may have underestimated the speed of Belcher in keeping his opening hand. I went off turn two with 12 goblin tokens, and he had no immediate recourse and scooped.

Game 2 he opened with Leyline of Sanctity, blanking my Goblin Charbelcher (which I win with about 33% of the time). I had to mulligan, but my hand had an initial mana source, Empty the Warrens and Xantid Swarm. I dropped a Chrome Mox, then brought out the Xantid Swarm. As I’d hoped, Kevin had boarded out all of his targeted removal, and though he may have had countermagic in hand, he decided not to use it. In retrospect, this was the critical play of the game. I was, over several turns, build up a hand of mana sources. He played Pernicious Deed, which is an absolute house against Belcher (pop it for zero and you kill all mana sources and goblin tokens). I had burning wish in my hand, and at this point had to wish for enchantment removal. I attacked with Swarm, then safely started casting accelerants. With barely enough mana, I cast Burning Wish and grabbed Hull Breach (I couldn’t grab Reverent Silence because I didn’t have a forest in play – Kevin had Spell Snared my hand-revealing Land Grant). I targeted Pernicious Deed with Hull Breach, forcing him to pop it for 1, wiping my board. I had 4 mana left, and was able to Empty The Warrens for 10 tokens. I passed. To my great relief, he did not have another Pernicious Deed. He activated Mishras to chump my tokens and stay alive an extra turn, but was unable to find an answer. This was definitely the most exciting game of the afternoon for me.

1-1

Round 3: Versus Chris with Death and Taxes

Game 1: I empty turn two, and he’s unable to stem the tide, though he makes a valiant effort with Mother of Runes and Umezawa’s Jitte.

Game 2: I mull once or twice and he opens with Aether Vial. I can’t go off, so I simply pass the turn with an empty board. He drops a pithing needle, naming Belcher. I again pass with no plays.

At this point, Chris has a critical mass of creatures on the board, and I do something very novice. I have 10 mana either in hand or on the board, belcher and burning wish in hand. I probably had at least one or two turns of him beating in before I’d run out of time. The smart play would have been to wait for Mana #11, that way I could ritual out, cast Belcher drop my Lion’s Eye Diamonds, crack them before resolving Burning Wish, get Hull Breach, blow up the Pithing Needle and activate Belcher for lethal. Instead, I simply wished for Empty the warrens, believe that 12 goblin tokens could get through Jotun Grunt, Mother of Runes and a Serra’s Avenger. Had I done the math, I probably would have realized this unlikely, but I didn’t. Anyway, my hand committed, he slowly flew Serra Avenger over my tokens and killed me.

Game 3: I turn-one. Chris shrugs, then casts Enlightened Tutor. “What are those goblins called? ‘Goblin Token’?” and he reaches for Runed Halo. Lucky for me, you can’t Halo naming tokens. He didn’t have an out and failed to find, then dropped a Mother of Runes and resigned himself to blocking.

2-1

Round 4: Versus Jon with GW Aggro

This was actually a great round, despite GW being pretty weak against combo decks.

Game 1: I slow roll it since I know he has a relatively slow clock. I play a mox and fetch my land, then Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens. When I look through my sideboard, I see that it isn’t there. In my excitement, I had neglected to de-board. I tell Chris that I’ failed to deboard and say I know it’s technically a game loss. I scoop and learn that he had maindeck Gaddock Teeg coming down next turn, which would have stopped me from emptying after I’d already used my Burning Wish (I have Pyroclasm in my board for Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist and Phrexian Revoker).

Game 2: I recall having a critical turn-one him.

Game 3: Another really exciting game. I have a killer opener on the draw. I slowly and deliberately ritual up toward Charbelcher mana (with Burning Wish in hand). From 8 cards I go Simian Spirit Guide, Rite of Flame, Pyretic Ritual, Seething song – CHANT! My mana pool of 5 drains, as does the color from my face. The good news is I still have 4 cards in hand, including two win cons and a Lion’s Eye Diamond. Jon builds up his army of hate bears, sticking an Ethersworn Canonist. My hand reaches 8 cards, so I drop a LED and continue to build up cards. He plays one of the Leonin cards and takes away my LED. I play another one. At this point, I topdeck the Ingot Chewer I need to kill his canonist, then cast charbelcher and belch (he didn’t have Orim’s Chant). It was a very hard-fought victory, and Jon definitely had the best combo hate available GW has available.

3-1

Round 5: Versus David (first place) with TES (for fun)

Game 1: I open with 14 tokens and David immediately laments not having Pyroclasm in his sideboard.

Game 2: David has a sick opening, Dark Ritual’ing twice, then casting Ad Nauseum, flipping all 4 of his Duresses and plenty of lotus petals. While he can’t win immediately, he is able to destroy my hand, which had burning wish, two belchers and an LED. He’s able to keep a hand full of business, and I don’t even have a first turn play, so I scoop.

Game 3: I show him my hand to Land Grant, and as he flips through it and does the calculations, he realizes I have a first turn Belcher win, and he has no turn-zero out.

All in all, it was great to play with Belcher. I played Spanish Inquisition many years ago, and frankly SI has nothing on Belcher. Though Belcher doesn’t pack much disruption other than Xantid Swarm, it is far more consistant than Spanish Inquisition (SI has flashback-aliscious Cabal Therapy). Though both routinely go off turn one, the great thing about Belcher is it is WYSIWYG. There are far fewer unknowns. Assuming you will go off turn one (which is possible about 60 – 80% of the time depending on your skill level and whether you’re on the play or on the draw), all the cards you will need are already in your hand – not unknowns on top of your deck.

What’s more, I see it only gaining from the release of New Phyrexian. The Phyrexian alternate-cost Peek card, Gitaxian Probe, will definitely make the deck stronger – it boosts storm and sniffs out counter magic. Mental Misstep only hits eight maindeck cards – Tinder Wall and Rite of Flame – far fewer 1-drops than most combo archetypes.

Finally, its speed, resiliency, and the flexibility afforded it by Burning Wish have definitely convinced me this is the top combo deck going forward.

Thanks for reading my report!

[Beatusnox]

Just started building Belcher, been playing it on MWS for a while now, and I am finally decided to shell out the cash to build it in paper magic ^^.

[Beatusnox]

Sorry for double post but I have a question, In the build I am running I use both Desperate and Pyretic Ritual. I was wondering if you all thought that dropping one of those, in order to play Burning Wish to have a denser threat base could be a good idea.

[Infinitium]

Wait, you don't run Wish? Mathematically you have the greatest chance of seeing exactly one win condition in your opening 7 (the rest being mana) if you run 11 cards dedicated to the slot, meaning that most (GR) Belcher lists start with 4 Belcher 4 BW 3 EtW for fun and profit (with the 4th EtW in the sideboard to be wished for).

[Beatusnox]

I was running the list that Requiems article had in it. Which had no Wishes. Though the more I play, the more I am noticing that the wishes are a necessity. The only thing I have noticed is that going the Wish route requires two extra mana. Though it is very doable.

[Parax]

Are people now playing gitaxian probe instead of Street Wraith? Why not as it bumps your storm count.

[Sims]

I was running the list that Requiems article had in it. Which had no Wishes. Though the more I play, the more I am noticing that the wishes are a necessity. The only thing I have noticed is that going the Wish route requires two extra mana. Though it is very doable.

Might be 2 extra mana but it's 2 extra goblins, which can make a difference, ontop of being extra wincons or utility as needed.

[Beatusnox]

Might be 2 extra mana but it's 2 extra goblins, which can make a difference, ontop of being extra wincons or utility as needed.

That was my thought, but I wanted to ask opinions on it before making myself look like a jackass and face planting piloting the deck.

Also, as for Gitaxian probe, I am definitely considering it over Street Wrath, The Ability to draw a card, and have knowledge of the existence of counter spells can be decision making. One question I have, why do so many blue players insist on dazing if I have the mana to pay when I try to go off with Empty the Warrens, it just adds to my spell count =/

[Dark Ritual]

Because the blue player is bad? Really, especially if you land granted, and the blue player is smart, they should know when to daze you. But yeah if they daze you and you have the mana to pay and still cast EtW there's something wrong with that player.

[Beatusnox]

So my list for post NPH, Would love advice on it.


Win Cons: '11'
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

Card Draw:4
4 Gitaxian Probe

Gas:40
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Manamorphose
4 Seething Song
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame

Land: 5
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga


Sideboard:15
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Slagstorm/Pyroclasm
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Pithing Needle


I havent decided if I want Pyroclasm or Slagstorm, I am leaning towards Slagstorm because it does hit harder.
the sideboard needs a lot of help I think, I am unsure of the meta I will be playing in so I tried to make a varied sideboard.

For the main deck I was wondering if Dropping wraith for Probe is the right idea, or if running both could be better.

[evanmartyr]

While I was initially very excited about Gitaxian Probe, I'm having more and more trouble finding a spot for it in the deck outside of the Manamorphose slots. Are you guys assuming that that's where it goes? I don't want to drop any more acceleration, since while running Burning Wish is necessary, you'd lose a decent amount of your ability to reach the required mana for Wish->EtW if you started filling the deck with cantrips.

I proxied up the standard list with no Wraiths, no Probes, and 4x Manamorphose, and ran it for a while (I could have sworn I had Burning Wishes, apparently not :P) in preparation for a Legacy tournament this evening. A few things I noticed that may be worth noting in the primer.

While MMS hits very few targets in our list (Rite of Flame, Tinder Wall, possibly Gitaxian Probe) those targets are almost all muy importante. Usually a hand doesn't include more than one spell to "jump" you to the next CC level. So, while an average hand may be something like:

Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Elvish Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall
Desperate Ritual
Seething Song
Burning Wish

or something, a MMS won't keep you from going off entirely , but it will keep you off 6 mana that turn. Essentially, against any deck that you know is running MMS, it's devestating to us because it's at least a time walk. At worst, it's more than a time walk. And because MMS hits pretty much everyone and everything with varying degrees of severity, it's a nearly perfect catch-all sideboard card, which means we'll likely see a lot of it.

I'm really not sure how the deck's going to handle this; it won't annihilate your chances, but I don't see how it won't lower your percentages against every other deck. As counter intuitive as it may seem, it may be time to start exploring Goblin Welder or a more stable version of the deck. Really, what the deck needs is a MD-able win condition that doesn't require 6+ mana, or just more storm-ey mana sources. An artifact-heavy version of the deck that potentially runs Mox Opal might be a better call too, since you can play Welder in that situation. Although the more "permanent" mana sources you run, the more you'll have to rely on Charbelcher or some other win condition, and the worse win conditions that require storm counts get.

Maybe just play MMS yourself and pray.

Looking around for some options to make it a more "grind you out" sort of combo deck, and I found a couple cool things.

Eladamri's Vineyard/Magus of the Vineyard: Shitty, since your opponent gets to use it first, but assuming you can parlay this into a turn 2-3 win, I'm not sure you'd care. This also doesn't really get you around MMS so much, but if you can increase the density of 1cc accelerants, you rely on individual ones less.

Braid of Fire: I. Love. This. Card. It's crap, but I don't care, it's also awesome. There's got to be a way to break the hell out of this. Perhaps not in this deck the way it is, but possibly in a modified version, since it's like a Grim Monolith that doesn't accelerate that turn, but lets you be more consistent the rest of the game.

Steel Hellkite: The obvious vulnerability to Swords, Path, Dismember, etc keeps this somewhat mediocre, but it's something to keep in mind, since it may as well be a Charbelcher activation against crap like Goblins and other creature-based decks, which tend to have a beter chance than most against swarms of Goblin tokens.

Deus of Calamity: I've seen this in SBs in some Belcher lists, but it may be worth considering for the maindeck in some metagames. I really like that opponents kind of have to block it but it still tramples over, and it shares an aspect of Steel Hellkite in that using stuff like extra Spirit Guides to make up the mana cost doesn't matter re: storm count. It's also one less mana than Empty the Warrens, which can make a big difference. Perhaps people should be boarding this in to avoid getting blown out by crap like Pyroclasm, in place of Burning Wishes?

Deity of Scars: I would love to suggest this, but it's nearly impossible to cast unless you start relying on black ritual variants.

The second thing I noticed was that occasionally some hands are definitely worth keeping against some decks even if you have to play draw-go for a while, whereas some hands are worth keeping despite being forced to go off asap, usually with a less than ideal number of goblin tokens, simply because waiting to draw more gas gives them too much time to develop a response. MMS is squeezing us somewhat on both fronts, so some specific matchup analysis, taking MMS into consideration, might be a valuable inclusion in the primer.

TL;DR = MMS bad for us. Find a better win condition than EtW (or smoother acceleration) and try that out. Goblin Welder might be worth trying, assuming an artifact-heavy build could work decently without an active welder.`

[Sims]

So, while an average hand may be something like:

Chrome Mox
Lotus Petal
Elvish Spirit Guide
Tinder Wall
Desperate Ritual
Seething Song
Burning Wish

or something, a MMS won't keep you from going off entirely , but it will keep you off 6 mana that turn.

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment though I haven't played belcher in a very long time, but doesn't this hand in the face of MMS as the only counter still get there?

Play Chrome, imprint Tinder Wall, storm 1
Play Lotus Petal, storm 2
Cast Desperate ritual, storm 3, RRR in pool
Cast song, storm 4, RRRRR in pool
Cast Burning Wish, storm 5, RRR in pool
Remove ESG, RRRG in pool
Cast ETW for 12

Sure a daze in the chain throws it all off, but if MMS is the only counter in their hand and somehow you know this, that hand still gets there.

Edit: Switched the order of removing ESG and casting wish, as there is no LED involved so holding the ESG til you know if Wish resolves makes more sense.

[Beatusnox]

I'm not disagreeing with the sentiment though I haven't played belcher in a very long time, but doesn't this hand in the face of MMS as the only counter still get there?

Play Chrome, imprint Tinder Wall, storm 1
Play Lotus Petal, storm 2
Cast Desperate ritual, storm 3, RRR in pool
Cast song, storm 4, RRRRR in pool
Remove ESG, RRRRRG
Cast Burning Wish, storm 5, RRRR in pool
Cast ETW for 12

Sure a daze in the chain throws it all off, but if MMS is the only counter in their hand and somehow you know this, that hand still gets there.

I do believe your math is right Sims. the only thing in that hand that would get countered by MMS is Tinder Wall and you can just imprint it.

[Infinitium]

Because the blue player is bad? Really, especially if you land granted, and the blue player is smart, they should know when to daze you. But yeah if they daze you and you have the mana to pay and still cast EtW there's something wrong with that player.

Not necessarily. Even if the blue player knows EtW is coming he'll still lose unless he keeps you off enough mana to cast it in the first place (or can dump his hand on the table in short very order to stem the bleeding). Blind Daze on the spell that would put you at 4+ mana is a very reasonable play (unless of course he has information about your hand).

[evanmartyr]

Ok, so it wasn't a very good example hand, but I see MMS buying people time against us, which is precisely the thing we do not want. We do not want them to have the time to get to 2mana to activate an EE set at 0. MMS'ing a single Rite of Flame could easily push us back a turn, or more if we draw things we can't bridge the gap from 0cc (SSG, ESG, Petal, Tinder Wall, Rite of Flame, etc) to 2, which is where we bridge the gap to Seething Song or just generally get to 4+ mana. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, just that it'll make our life harder since we'll have to take it into consideration for every single game 2 we play, and plenty of game 1s.

If anyone cares for a read, here's a crummy little tournament report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?20852-the-Monster-s-Den-Top-4-with-Belcher&p=547145) from tonight's 4 round legacy tournament in Minneapolis.

[thatoneguy]

If i can't get a hold of any lions eye diamonds, what could I put in untill I could? I realize the card is very important, but I can not find any, anywhere.

[perm]

Has anyone tried chancellor of the annex? If you play first it guarantees a win if you can go off.

[evanmartyr]

If i can't get a hold of any lions eye diamonds, what could I put in untill I could? I realize the card is very important, but I can not find any, anywhere.

I would just take out Burning Wishes, put in your EtW from the sideboard, and play as many Gitaxian Probes and Street Wraiths as you had open slots. Cutting down on win conditions and explosive mana sucks, but if you're going to take out one of the more important accelerators, I'd say ditch the thing they're usually combined with and shrink the deck as much as possible with cyclers. Obviously, you'd want four Probes before you topped the list off with Wraiths.

It might fizzle a lot, and you'll be going off blind a lot, just hoping you'll draw into the acceleration you need, but there aren't really any better replacements. Let us know how it works out :D

[4eak]

If i can't get a hold of any lions eye diamonds, what could I put in untill I could? I realize the card is very important, but I can not find any, anywhere.
// Initial Mana Sources - 21
1 Stomping Ground/Taiga
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox

// Conditional Mana Sources - 20
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Tinder Wall

// Trix - 8
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose

// Wish and Win-Cons - 11
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher


It might fizzle a lot, and you'll be going off blind a lot, just hoping you'll draw into the acceleration you need, but there aren't really any better replacements. Let us know how it works out :D

It goes for EtW more often. It can consistently get 4-6 mana, but it is very hard to get 7 mana in the opener. When you do play Charbelcher, most of the time you'll have to wait another turn or two before you can activate it.

Losing LED sucks. But, the deck still does play well despite lacking that +3 mana boost.


Has anyone tried chancellor of the annex? If you play first it guarantees a win if you can go off.

A player with two active free counterspells could still stop you. Mental Misstep and FoW, FoW and FoW, or MM and MM. Not a guarantee, and I'm thinking it just isn't worth the slot.



peace,
4eak

[evanmartyr]

You know that's a good point. Never mind about cutting Burning Wish.

Edit: Just did a pretty tedious search through all the possible win conditions that cost less than 7 on gatherer and came across Chandra Ablaze. I'm not sure how great she is as a replacement for belcher in budget lists without LED, but imagine this line of play.

Turn 1: Acceleration, Chandra. Use her -2: you hand likely increases in size, your opponent mulligans to three.
Turn 2: Start nuking creatures (if there are creatures) or your opponent.
Turn X: Cast all your nutty acceleration just sitting unused in your graveyard and storm out.

Maybe not the best replacement, but it might be an option?

[Beatusnox]

You know that's a good point. Never mind about cutting Burning Wish.

Edit: Just did a pretty tedious search through all the possible win conditions that cost less than 7 on gatherer and came across Chandra Ablaze. I'm not sure how great she is as a replacement for belcher in budget lists without LED, but imagine this line of play.

Turn 1: Acceleration, Chandra. Use her -2: you hand likely increases in size, your opponent mulligans to three.
Turn 2: Start nuking creatures (if there are creatures) or your opponent.
Turn X: Cast all your nutty acceleration just sitting unused in your graveyard and storm out.

Maybe not the best replacement, but it might be an option?

I disagree, if you can build up to six mana, odds are you could look at your hand and pass into a mana source for belcher from the top deck anyway.

And actually, to amend my list from yesterday, I would drop the manamorphose and add the probes, keep 4 probes and 3 wraiths just to try to have more digging.

Also, I know it takes away from the explosiveness but some of the worse lotuses that have been printed could be used as a temporary replacement for LED if you plan on getting them.

[Final Fortune]

I'm more or less certain the "cycler" slot is just Chancellor of the Tangle's place, because regardless of whether or not he's an awful top deck, he's a +1 initial, uncounterable mana source and filters G into R thru' Tinder Wall to start the Desperate/Pyretic Ritual chains, and drawing Chancellor of the Tangle and Chrome Mox in the same hand is the nut high since it's virtual card advantage.

[evanmartyr]

I'm more or less certain the "cycler" slot is just Chancellor of the Tangle's place, because regardless of whether or not he's an awful top deck, he's a +1 initial, uncounterable mana source and filters G into R thru' Tinder Wall to start the Desperate/Pyretic Ritual chains, and drawing Chancellor of the Tangle and Chrome Mox in the same hand is the nut high since it's virtual card advantage.

I hate that card, but I'm fairly certain that you're right.

EDIT: Even if you're wrong, and he doesn't straight up take the spot of Manamorphose/Probe, he might be a good replacement for Elvish Spirit Guide. I just worry about replacing Manamorphose with anything, since it's incredibly versatile in filtering your Spirit Guides into the correct color you need to smooth out opening hands.


I disagree, if you can build up to six mana, odds are you could look at your hand and pass into a mana source for belcher from the top deck anyway.

And actually, to amend my list from yesterday, I would drop the manamorphose and add the probes, keep 4 probes and 3 wraiths just to try to have more digging.

Also, I know it takes away from the explosiveness but some of the worse lotuses that have been printed could be used as a temporary replacement for LED if you plan on getting them.

What exactly would you suggest, since LED is generally considered the one worse lotus that exists. If there were more, we'd play them.

[Beatusnox]

I hate that card, but I'm fairly certain that you're right.

EDIT: Even if you're wrong, and he doesn't straight up take the spot of Manamorphose/Probe, he might be a good replacement for Elvish Spirit Guide. I just worry about replacing Manamorphose with anything, since it's incredibly versatile in filtering your Spirit Guides into the correct color you need to smooth out opening hands.



What exactly would you suggest, since LED is generally considered the one worse lotus that exists. If there were more, we'd play them.

For those who cannot get LED, You could play Lotus Bloom or Lotus Blossom Neither are as powerful as LED here, but could be used to a similar effect if are losing explosiveness already due to losing the LED.

[evanmartyr]

You'd be losing so much explosiveness I'm not sure it would matter anymore. Assuming you play it turn 1, it takes until what, turn 4 for Lotus Bloom to result in mana gain? And Lotus Blossom is significantly worse, given that it takes as long to net you +1 mana, AND it costs mana to begin with. Would you play Pyretic Ritual if it gave you the mana after 3 turns?

[defector]

In view of the new set, I am going to give this a try. I still hate this glass cannon piece of shite, but this makes it at least less painful to play. Losing manamorphose was like having a splinter pulled from my paw. I'll take this my little tourney in two weeks and then get back to you guys with results.

1 Land Belcher

Mana-46-
Taiga X1
Land Grant X4
Lion’s Eye Diamond X4
Lotus Petal X4
Desperate Ritual X4
Rite of Flame X4
Seething Song X4
Elvish Spirit Guide X4
Simian Spirit Guide X4
Tinder Wall X4
Pyretic Ritual X4
Chrome Mox X3
Mox Opal X1

Win Conditions-11-
Goblin Charbelcher X4
Burning Wish X4
Empty the Warrens X3

Draw Engine-4-
Gitaxian Probe X4

Sideboard-15-
Empty the Warrens X1
Reverent Silence X1
Diminishing Returns X1
Pyroclasm X1
Hull Breach X1
Shattering Spree X3
Guttural Response X3
Xantid Swarm X4

[thefringthing]

So it looks like from the stock list you've gone -4 Manamorphose, +4 Gitaxian Probe,-1 Chrome Mox, +1 Mox Opal. Not sure I agree on either account. I think I may be putting the Git Probe in as a wishboard card, though.

[evanmartyr]

Mox Opal X1

Whut.


Gitaxian Probe X4

So, you're replacing the best imprint the deck has, the only way for it to filter green into red and red into green, with a cantrip? Manamorphose has downsides, sure, but I'm fairly certain the mana fixing's better than the very occasionally relevant Peek; much of the time your plays won't change all that much based on what's in your opponent's hand.

EDIT: I'll be ditching an REB for a Probe in the SB though. Occasionally I suspect it may be relevant to race somebody. Free storm and all that.

[Beatusnox]

Whut.



So, you're replacing the best imprint the deck has, the only way for it to filter green into red and red into green, with a cantrip? Manamorphose has downsides, sure, but I'm fairly certain the mana fixing's better than the very occasionally relevant Peek; much of the time your plays won't change all that much based on what's in your opponent's hand.

I slightly disagree on the Manamorphose, they are both free if uncountered, but if manamorphose is countered, you lose two mana, whereas the Probe only loses two life, and if they are burning a counterspell on the probe, its one less counterspell they have to stop the win conditions. And while this deck is a glass cannon, it is by no means a bad deck.

I do agree on the Mox Opal thing though, Unless you couldn't get the chrome mox, and even then, its a poor substitute.

[kicks_422]

Who would counter Manamorphose?

Sure, Gitaxian probe lets you see your opponent's hand. Why, would you change your line of play according to what they have? Belcher has its options limited to its opening 7. You're not an interactive deck, so why care what they have in their hand?

[Beatusnox]

Who would counter Manamorphose?

Sure, Gitaxian probe lets you see your opponent's hand. Why, would you change your line of play according to what they have? Belcher has its options limited to its opening 7. You're not an interactive deck, so why care what they have in their hand?

Countering manamorphose if the deck is going off it can set us from 2 mana, to zero, and bridging from 0-2 again can be taxing on the deck.

In game one, if you are on the play, some decks may not want you to see their opening hand.

Beyond that, Seeing what is in their hand can change how you play. If they have too many answers in your hand, you may not go off right away and slow roll into the ability to have more than one win Condition, its not ideal, but it is possible.

[kicks_422]

Seriously?

It would be better to counter the spell that would bridge from 2 mana to 3 mana or more (in case there's a Spirit Guide to reach 4 for Warrens), not Manamorphose. You're assuming that your opponents don't know that?

So you open this hand: Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tinder Wall. That's an EtW for 14 Turn 1 right there. If you see an Engineered Explosives and Force of Will in their hand after you Probe (or even just the EE), you're seriously going to try to wait to draw into Belcher?

With or without that Probe, that's already a loss right there for you. Shuffle them up and go to Game 2.

[kicks_422]

Seriously?

It would be better to counter the spell that would bridge from 2 mana to 3 mana or more (in case there's a Spirit Guide to reach 4 for Warrens), not Manamorphose. You're assuming that your opponents don't know that?

So you open this hand: Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tinder Wall. That's an EtW for 14 Turn 1 right there. If you see an Engineered Explosives and Force of Will in their hand after you Probe (or even just the EE), you're seriously going to try to wait to draw into Belcher?

With or without that Probe, that's already a loss right there for you. Shuffle them up and go to Game 2.

[evanmartyr]

So you open this hand: Rite of Flame, Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Burning Wish, LED, Gitaxian Probe, Tinder Wall. That's an EtW for 14 Turn 1 right there. If you see an Engineered Explosives and Force of Will in their hand after you Probe (or even just the EE), you're seriously going to try to wait to draw into Belcher?

With or without that Probe, that's already a loss right there for you. Shuffle them up and go to Game 2.

While I agree that seeing that is bad, it may allow you to play differently, in that you could hold an LED in your hand to jump start a second combo attempt after dumping 12 goblins. If you're going first, they're probably taking 12 damage from your attack, and if you're going second, maybe you'll draw a EtW or something that would allow you to Burning Wish for Goblin War Strike. I dunno. I agree with your point though.

Until we can either support Mox Opal consistently, or they print a new mana source that filters mana as efficiently as Manamorphose, I don't see myself dropping it from the MD.

[Namida]

While I agree that seeing that is bad, it may allow you to play differently, in that you could hold an LED in your hand to jump start a second combo attempt after dumping 12 goblins. If you're going first, they're probably taking 12 damage from your attack, and if you're going second, maybe you'll draw a EtW or something that would allow you to Burning Wish for Goblin War Strike. I dunno. I agree with your point though.

Honestly, I think it shouldn't change your play because you should be holding that LED anyway. Turn one, 12 goblins kills as fast as 14 Goblins unless they have three one mana spells that can remove goblins.

[defector]

There are three choke points in the list that expose the vulnerability of the deck. Manamorphose, Seething Song and Burning Wish/Belcher. Getting rid of one of those is fantastic. Not only that but the Probe is +1 storm, draw a card, very synergistic with the ETW route. Your life total doesn't matter your playing combo. The deck doesn't support Opal well, but I think it supports Opal better than the 4th chrome mox. I don't have the math to back it up, just testing, but I think running the one Opal reduces your mulls from multi Chrome Mox hands. That's me though and I agree it's unorthodox. The only bonus of seeing your opponents hand with probe is if your holding belcher and etw in your hand, you see their packing fow you slow roll with whatever your goblin count is, if not then your green light to go off. It will probably help you every fifteenth game vs control. I like the new green guy that gives mana, he might be a four of, this deck doesn't play for the long game so he is kind of Belcher's speed. Need to get a set and test though.

[The Rack]

Another point about probe that hasn't been brought up yet is that Misstep hits it. While you may not think that's relevant and a blue player wouldn't waste a counter on it, they would. If they knew anything about belcher they would know that Tinder Wall and Rite of Flame are the only 1cc in the deck and Belcher can go off without them easily. I don't think it's safe to call Probe an autoinclude by any means.

[evanmartyr]

There are three choke points in the list that expose the vulnerability of the deck. Manamorphose, Seething Song and Burning Wish/Belcher. Getting rid of one of those is fantastic.

What do you mean by this. Nearly every single card in the deck is a "choke point". An opponent with a counter can hit pretty much anything up to EtW and we fall flat on our face.


Not only that but the Probe is +1 storm, draw a card, very synergistic with the ETW route. Your life total doesn't matter your playing combo.

That's not what's at issue here. I think if you run the deck for a few hundred iterations, you'll find that the mana fixing is quite relevant, whereas the lottery you play every time you play Probe is really crappy.


The deck doesn't support Opal well, but I think it supports Opal better than the 4th chrome mox. I don't have the math to back it up, just testing, but I think running the one Opal reduces your mulls from multi Chrome Mox hands.

Sure it reduces your mulls from multi-Chrome Mox hands....because there are fewer Chrome Moxes. I could play a Forest in place of a Chrome Mox and it would reduce mulls from multi-Chrome Mox hands, but it wouldn't be good.


I like the new green guy that gives mana, he might be a four of, this deck doesn't play for the long game so he is kind of Belcher's speed. Need to get a set and test though.

Same. I think if you want to reduce Chrome Mox mulligans, this guy's gonna be your friend.

[Namida]

What do you mean by this. Nearly every single card in the deck is a "choke point". An opponent with a counter can hit pretty much anything up to EtW and we fall flat on our face.

This is how I see it.

Cards like Rite of Flame and Desperate Ritual aren't as devastating when they get countered because of the low amount of resources you put into them. You can recover from one of those getting countered, maybe even in the same turn. Seething Song requires that you put three mana into it, which means in most situations with this deck, that you got two-for-one'd if it got countered. Burning Wish and Belcher are your win conditions, so there's not much that needs to be said about how many resources you invest in them, nor what happens if they meet a counterspell. Manamorphose...I think that this is just how people feel about it. You're investing two mana into drawing a random card and getting your mana back most of the time when you cast it. It's a cantrip, but if it gets countered you're down two mana you didn't need to spend, and now you look silly. The feeling of getting your weakest spell countered probably makes it seem like the play of having that spell countered is more devastating than it really is.

[evanmartyr]

but if it gets countered you're down two mana you didn't need to spend

Except frequently you really did need to spend it, since you ripped a hand with 2 ESGs and red rituals, or something.

Earlier in the thread I pointed out that the investment costs associated with Manamorphose were what made me excited for Probe. Having tried out Probe, it makes you slightly more resilient to a Force of Will targeting the wrong thing, but it also increases the likelihood of color screw by a significant amount. So with Probe, using your numbers, it'll be *relevant* 1/15 of the time against control, which is our bad matchup anyway. Against nearly everything else, it's worse than Manamorphose, because it doesn't do anything relevant.

Basically, the deck's a glass cannon. We only have a few avenues for improving it, and they're all super, super specific; generally, only direct upgrades to current cards, or hitting a critical mass of one type of card that allows us to cut a color or something. Until we get some other convenient, storm-ey, way to filter mana green into red, or are able to completely cut green mana sources from the deck, I wouldn't expect Manamorphose to leave the deck entirely.

If you wanted to, though, looking into a Mono-red build might be an interesting thought experiment, or possibly dropping green for black, or something. Without green, you could go heavier into artifacts, which would (I imagine) allow you to support Mox Opal better. I doubt it would be as fast as 1-land, though.

[defector]

I agree with Namida's logic regarding choke points, I think those are the cards that control players let go or look to kill. Now mental misstep is probably going to make the merfolk match up very poor for belcher, that's life you can't beat all of them. On the other hand we improve with the new cards. I have given up on Opal completely, too inconsistent. Maybe the next route is some combo if filters like wraith and probe with fixers like manamorphose. Working on versions running various three of's, if I get anything interesting I'll post it. I'm doing everything in my power to not have the fourth chrome mox, we'll see how it goes. I have tried the red black version and it is also janky as hell. We need one more card, maybe in the next set:) On the other hand, probe makes us better and we still lose to merfolk.

[Namida]

Except frequently you really did need to spend it, since you ripped a hand with 2 ESGs and red rituals, or something.

Earlier in the thread I pointed out that the investment costs associated with Manamorphose were what made me excited for Probe. Having tried out Probe, it makes you slightly more resilient to a Force of Will targeting the wrong thing, but it also increases the likelihood of color screw by a significant amount. So with Probe, using your numbers, it'll be *relevant* 1/15 of the time against control, which is our bad matchup anyway. Against nearly everything else, it's worse than Manamorphose, because it doesn't do anything relevant.

That doesn't particularly come up often to me, the color restraints. I concede that this may not be the case for you, or maybe even most people. You're right that Manamorphose has a use, but it just isn't a use that is relevant often, though it's really good to have when it happens. A great majority of the time, I feel like it's basically just putting mana in to get the same mana out and draw a card.

I'm not arguing for the use of Probe. I think both cards aren't really good, but Manamorphose does more for the deck than Probe does. I was just trying to explain the "choke point" thing.

[lordofthepit]

I'm going to try out some Belcher for shits and giggles. Seems easy enough when you can win on turn 1 through no resistance, but obviously, your opponents sometimes ruin the fun by playing counterspells, which is why the Swarms and Red Blasts come in Game 2. But what cards do you take out to board in that protection?

[thefringthing]

I tend to cut 1 Taiga, 4 Land Grant, 2 Manamorphose, 1 Chrome Mox.

[Ozymandias]

That's a terrible SB plan. If you're expecting counters, you want every permanent mana source you can get your hands on to continue fighting them even if your first thrusts are parried. What you really need to do is take out some combination of pyretic ritual (lowest magnitude) seething song (sometimes important, like versus CB) and manamorphose (not actually any kind of business spell.)

[defector]

I agree with Ozy on the sideboard, you need all permanent mana you can get your hands on. You'd be surprised how often wasteland can hurt this list even with only one land. I like the probe in the control match up, sometimes knowing what they have tells you whether or not you have to be conservative, and what you have to fight through. Test as much as you can, I like to bring in 4 swarm and 3 Guttural Response, cutting 3 Manamorphose and 3 pytetics, one Seething.

[lorddotm]

I'm going to try out some Belcher for shits and giggles. Seems easy enough when you can win on turn 1 through no resistance, but obviously, your opponents sometimes ruin the fun by playing counterspells, which is why the Swarms and Red Blasts come in Game 2. But what cards do you take out to board in that protection?

The guy who Top 8'd SCG LA with Belcher would say that it is only easy if you drink your weight in hard liquor.

[evanmartyr]

As much as a cheerleader I've been for Manamorphose, they're the thing I take out for the Xantid Swarms. I haven't played many matches against "pure" control, and unless I start to see more I may cut down on the REBs in the SB since I only end up boarding one of them in against Merfolk and other blue/tempo decks...which might actually be a liability now, due to MMS.

But yeah, I can't think of a situation where boarding out Land Grant and your Taiga is a good call.


That doesn't particularly come up often to me, the color restraints. I concede that this may not be the case for you, or maybe even most people. You're right that Manamorphose has a use, but it just isn't a use that is relevant often, though it's really good to have when it happens. A great majority of the time, I feel like it's basically just putting mana in to get the same mana out and draw a card.

I'm not arguing for the use of Probe. I think both cards aren't really good, but Manamorphose does more for the deck than Probe does. I was just trying to explain the "choke point" thing.

Oh, I certainly understand the choke point thing. You summarized my argument nicely: Manamorphose does little, Probe does less. If they want to wreck you with a counterspell, they can do whether you play Manamorphose or not. Manamorphose also has these teeny little benefits that add up to it not ever really being a liability, unless your hand has no initial mana sources AND nothing to build into.

As for the Chrome Mox thing...I really don't get this aversion to it. There's no other mana source that I can think of that can replace a single copy of it, and much of the time you're winning with Goblin tokens anyway, meaning you can always play additional copies with no imprint solely for Storm.

[Admiral_Arzar]

The guy who Top 8'd SCG LA with Belcher would say that it is only easy if you drink your weight in hard liquor.

That was one of the best tournament reports I've ever read. It was up there with Bryant Cook's GP Columbus report in sheer hilarity.

Otherwise, I have nothing constructive to add.

[Beatusnox]

Is it odd that I actually feel Belcher could be positioned to do well at the GP this week?

In all the local Testing I have done with the deck, I only have had issues against decks that use Sphere of Resistance, and Merfolk. Most other Blue strategies I can beat in Games two and three without issue, or if I'm explosive enough, even game one. Xantid Swarm, IMHO is an amazing card that wins games. Locally, I seem to have tolerable match ups against Countertop Dreadnought, and some other countertop decks. Sea Stompy Is beatable, I can go off a turn faster than Ant, and I can bend zoo over and have my way with it. This is all locally though, and I know at the GP the players will be better than a lot of the bads in my area. I have found one deck though that completely hosed me, It was some weird mill deck that made me mill until I hit four lands, Running one land belcher, well, four lands doesnt happen.

[Dark Ritual]

...I would expect belcher to be very badly placed at the GP. I wouldn't be caught dead playing belcher at Providence. And yes, mind funeral is the tech against this deck but it costs 3 mana. I guess it matters if you're on the draw and go EtW for 10 or more dudes or you only get 8 goblins on the play or less.

If people misstep your gitaxian probe, let them. I honestly don't see why it's relevant that MM counters it. Because then you just go off and when you play another cmc 1 spell in the chain they'll slap themselves. I would play probe over manamorphose any day since street wraith was cut long ago for pyretic ritual/grim monolith.

[GoldenCid]

Could noxious revival be useful here??

[defector]

I think that Revival is too situational in a deck that is so front seven dependent, but that merits testing and a four of in the binder:)

[GoldenCid]

I think that Revival is too situational in a deck that is so front seven dependent, but that merits testing and a four of in the binder:)

Do you suggest to test a full set?

[Dark Ritual]

Noxious revival could actually maybe do good in here. The good part about it is it is any card that you have played previously; need a win con? Put charbelcher that they countered on top. Need mana? Put a rite of flame on top etc. etc. but the question is always what to cut and how many would you run I wouldn't run 4 because it seems awkward to start with 2 in hand and not enough mana to cast a win con and win. Running 2 could be interesting though to add semi business spells to the deck. And it could be interesting in post board games like say they counter swarm you simply get swarm back on top and try to resolve it again. If they counter it a second time I would go for the win then and there because it's rare that a hand has more than 2 pieces of countermagic at that point.

[GoldenCid]

Actually i'm running 4 Street Wraith, 2 Grim Monolith and 2 Noxious Revival + the other 52.

/ Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [NPH] Noxious Revival

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

[thatoneguy]

I can see that most people have moved away from running 2 land, and using dark ritual. I still use two lands, but dark ritual scares me in the deck. What should I replace it with, Street Wraith? I also want to know, if dark ritual leaves, I no longer need mana morphose. What should I replace that with? Here is the list I was going off of, it pritty basic. Thanks.

4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens

4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga
1 Bayou

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
3 Tinder Wall
4 mana morphose

[evanmartyr]

I wouldn't run a second land just for access to Dark Ritual, especially when you can just play Pyretic Ritual in its stead. Until someone comes up with a drastically different list, I'd say two colors with 4 flex slots (Manamorphose) is fairly ideal.

@Goldengirl: Why play Grim Monolith instead of Pyretic Ritual? They do the same thing on whichever turn is important, but one adds useful mana and the other does not. I also don't see much reason to play Street Wraith over Gitaxian Probe, seeing as how they do the same thing but one adds to storm while the other does not.

[thatoneguy]

So, replace Dark Ritual with Pyretic Ritual, and take out the mana morphose for street wraith? If yes, do I go down to one Tiaga or stay with 2 land?

[Final Fortune]

So, replace Dark Ritual with Pyretic Ritual, and take out the mana morphose for street wraith? If yes, do I go down to one Tiaga or stay with 2 land?

Cut Bayou and Dark Ritual and replace them with Tinder Wall and Pyretic Ritual, the old Manamorphose slot should be the new Chancellor of the Tangle - Street Wraith is awful.

[thefringthing]

Here's what I played at GP Providence:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Regrowth

[evanmartyr]

Here's what I played at GP Providence:

4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Rite of Flame
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
4 Land Grant
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Pyroblast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Regrowth

Sideboard aside, that is the exact same list I'm running. How'd you do? Good/Bad matchups in this new, exciting metagame of ours?

@Final Fortune: I wouldn't replace spells with non-spells in this deck. Taking out Manamorphose (which adds to storm and fixes mana which is occasionally relevant) with a card that is a slightly better Elvish Spirit Guide makes little sense. If you said to replace Elvish Spirit Guide with it, I'd understand.

[GoldenCid]

Hi all!!! In the actual meta i find terrible problem about how side this deck with the arrival of Mental MIsstep.
I included Noxious revival to minimize it effect but i was meh! Has anybody tested it?

I need advice about how to side in against this MU:

-Black discard
-MUC
-Merfolks

Beside could mental misstep help us? Has anybody teste Gitaxian probe?

For reverence i post my list and SB:

// Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
2 [UL] Grim Monolith
2 [NPH] Noxious Revival

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

Help is really needed. Thx!!

[Clark Kant]

I'm amazed that you think Gitaxian Probe even needs to be tested here. There is no reason to play Street Wraith when Gitaxian Probe is not already a four of...

1. It tells you what is in your opponents hand, knowing if they have a Daze or FoW, a Pyroclasm (or some other sideboard hate) or if they have a Hymn they can use if they get one more turn, is invaluable info.

2. It adds to the storm count for 0 mana.

3. It lets you play a 52 card deck same as Street Wraith. (combined with Manamorphose).


It absolutely is an automatic four of as far as I'm concerned. If you can't think of what to cut, I would play it over Street Wraith, since unlike Wraith, it adds to your storm count and tells you your opponent's plan.

[slobad23]

Like street wraith is makes mulligan decisions harder. Unlike something like TES you can't spend the first couple turns cantripping and sculpting your hand. We don't have the "oh look, a turn 5 ad nauseam... I guess I win" kind of play. Similarly we can't just peel a time spiral and win. There needs to be a number of cards used to pull off a win.

Unlike street wraith, the probe gets hit by mental misstep. Belcher is one of the few combo decks with as small an amount of one drops as it has in this misstep meta. Adding probe just gives them a target which doesn't need to be there. If in game one you see they have a force of will don't you still have to play pretty much the same game you would otherwise be playing if they didn't have it? That was rhetorical - the answer is yes.

[Final Fortune]

Sideboard aside, that is the exact same list I'm running. How'd you do? Good/Bad matchups in this new, exciting metagame of ours?

@Final Fortune: I wouldn't replace spells with non-spells in this deck. Taking out Manamorphose (which adds to storm and fixes mana which is occasionally relevant) with a card that is a slightly better Elvish Spirit Guide makes little sense. If you said to replace Elvish Spirit Guide with it, I'd understand.

Mana Morphose is complete garbage, and not running an unconditional, initial mana source in Belcher that synergizes with Chrome Mox is just, well bad. This deck is just 11 threats with the most efficient 49 mana sources available, everything else is just unnecessarily cute shit.

[MMogg]

Mana Morphose is complete garbage, and not running an unconditional, initial mana source in Belcher that synergizes with Chrome Mox is just, well bad. This deck is just 11 threats with the most efficient 49 mana sources available, everything else is just unnecessarily cute shit.

I disagree that Manamorphose is "complete garbage". Beyond turn 1, Chancellor of the Tangle is complete garbage. If you want to increase your non-storm hands, be my guest. I have enough problems with 2-3 Spirit Guides in hand that do fuck all with Empty the Warrens, I don't want MORE stormless slots. Manamorphose not only increases your storm count, but also cycles into the goods. I can't count the number of times I have won because of Manamorphose's "draw a card'. And speaking of mana fixing, not only does it fix mana through casting it, but also when imprinted on Chrome Mox it gives you either green or red.

I know where you're coming from wanting more initial mana sources, but it's not an initial mana source beyond turn 1. After that, it's a waste and this deck can't handle that waste. Maybe you're lucky enough to never need more than the first turn, but I often do.

Re: Gitaxian Probe... not a huge fan. Yeah, it cycles, but so often I just look at my opponent's hand and say, wow, I'm fucked. ;) It's a neat card, but it's not the Messiah of Belcher as some people seem to think it is. It also has pretty horrible synergy with Chrome Mox.

@GoldenCid:

Not much you can do in those match-ups. Have you tried testing Pact of Negation vs blue?

Vs. discard, you could try Leyline of Sanctity in the board. More importantly, though, I find vs. a heavy hand disruption deck, you really don't want to mulligan. I know, it sounds fucked up but hear me out. Let's say you mulligan down to five cards looking for a business spell. So, you're on the play, chances are with five cards you can't win; on the draw, they rape your hand of your one business spell, and now you're sitting there with 4 crappy mana cards. Keeping a lackluster 7-card hand seems meh, I agree, but mulling into oblivion and into 2 turns of Duress/ThoughtSeize/Hymn is pretty lame too. At least by not mulling, they leave you with 6 mana spells (if you have no business in hand) and a chance to rip something. I've also been experimenting with Mental Misstep in the board vs discard, but I haven't had many results yet to come to any conclusions. I am sure, though, that mulling down to 4-5 versus a heavy discard deck is not going to advance your chances to win.

[Final Fortune]

I disagree that Manamorphose is "complete garbage". Beyond turn 1, Chancellor of the Tangle is complete garbage. If you want to increase your non-storm hands, be my guest. I have enough problems with 2-3 Spirit Guides in hand that do fuck all with Empty the Warrens, I don't want MORE stormless slots. Manamorphose not only increases your storm count, but also cycles into the goods. I can't count the number of times I have won because of Manamorphose's "draw a card'. And speaking of mana fixing, not only does it fix mana through casting it, but also when imprinted on Chrome Mox it gives you either green or red.

I know where you're coming from wanting more initial mana sources, but it's not an initial mana source beyond turn 1. After that, it's a waste and this deck can't handle that waste. Maybe you're lucky enough to never need more than the first turn, but I often do.

Re: Gitaxian Probe... not a huge fan. Yeah, it cycles, but so often I just look at my opponent's hand and say, wow, I'm fucked. ;) It's a neat card, but it's not the Messiah of Belcher as some people seem to think it is. It also has pretty horrible synergy with Chrome Mox.

@GoldenCid:

Not much you can do in those match-ups. Have you tried testing Pact of Negation vs blue?

Vs. discard, you could try Leyline of Sanctity in the board. More importantly, though, I find vs. a heavy hand disruption deck, you really don't want to mulligan. I know, it sounds fucked up but hear me out. Let's say you mulligan down to five cards looking for a business spell. So, you're on the play, chances are with five cards you can't win; on the draw, they rape your hand of your one business spell, and now you're sitting there with 4 crappy mana cards. Keeping a lackluster 7-card hand seems meh, I agree, but mulling into oblivion and into 2 turns of Duress/ThoughtSeize/Hymn is pretty lame too. At least by not mulling, they leave you with 6 mana spells (if you have no business in hand) and a chance to rip something. I've also been experimenting with Mental Misstep in the board vs discard, but I haven't had many results yet to come to any conclusions. I am sure, though, that mulling down to 4-5 versus a heavy discard deck is not going to advance your chances to win.

The average multiple SG/Chancellor hands divided by being on the play and being on the draw isn't that bad, and while Chancellor is a terrible top deck, in all honesty so is Manamorphose, but at least drawing Chancellor and Chrome Mox in the oppenning hand is the nut, nut draw. Honestly, I'd rather play Grim Monolith than Manamorphose any day, but I don't think you can pass on another IMS resolving Tinder Walls. And Frankly, you could probably run Crimson Kobolds in that slot and still do fine.

[lorddotm]

The average multiple SG/Chancellor hands divided by being on the play and being on the draw isn't that bad, and while Chancellor is a terrible top deck, in all honesty so is Manamorphose, but at least drawing Chancellor and Chrome Mox in the oppenning hand is the nut, nut draw. Honestly, I'd rather play Grim Monolith than Manamorphose any day, but I don't think you can pass on another IMS resolving Tinder Walls. And Frankly, you could probably run Crimson Kobolds in that slot and still do fine.

I can see how you would think drawing a card you can't cast and drawing something that cycles would make you think they are both blanks.

[evanmartyr]

I was fairly excited about Gitaxian Probe, and still am. I'll miss the versatility of Manamorphose, but Probe is a fair replacement for a number of reasons. Probe requires no mana investment, while still replacing itself. It can bait Mental Missteps, which is occasionally relevant (about as occasionally as Manamorphose's mana fixing is). And that's about it. I'll have to do some more testing to figure out how often I need the mana fixing, or the ability to have a dual color Chrome Mox, but I suspect that Probe will take at least two slots in the maindeck.

Yeah, not really our fault, but the fact that we're arguing about a single slot in the maindeck and not searching for a new engine is kind of disappointing.

There was a thread on themanadrain.com that was working on a list that ran 4 Pact of Negation for protection and 4 Summone's Pact to act as an additional four copies of ESG. Granted, it got rid of Empty the Warrens in favor of broken Vintage crap, but switching to a much more suicide-ey deck that tries to boost the turn 1 win percentage as high as possible and/or win turn 2 with the Pact triggers on the stack could be fairly fun. I'm not sure if an even more suicide-ey version of belcher is really possible without them going back to the original wording of Mox Diamond, though, but it might be worth brainstorming a bit.

[Clark Kant]

Like street wraith is makes mulligan decisions harder. Unlike something like TES you can't spend the first couple turns cantripping and sculpting your hand. We don't have the "oh look, a turn 5 ad nauseam... I guess I win" kind of play. Similarly we can't just peel a time spiral and win. There needs to be a number of cards used to pull off a win.

Unlike street wraith, the probe gets hit by mental misstep. Belcher is one of the few combo decks with as small an amount of one drops as it has in this misstep meta. Adding probe just gives them a target which doesn't need to be there. If in game one you see they have a force of will don't you still have to play pretty much the same game you would otherwise be playing if they didn't have it? That was rhetorical - the answer is yes.

I'm very confused by your post.

1.) Actually, knowing whether your opponent has a FoW or Daze or Pyroclasm in hand, discard, and whether they have a fast hand or a slow hand absolutely impacts how you should play your hand, or when you should go off. If you know they have counters, then you can fairly easily bait their FoW with something like Burning Wish, or you can play around Daze for your key spells. If you know they have no counters, you can go for a much bigger and riskier play. If you know they have Pyroclasm, you know to avoid going for Warrens, that information is huge.

2.) Probe unlike Street Wraith, adds to your Storm count and also gives you valuable info.

3.) If the Mental Misstep Probe instead of Tinder Wall, or Rite of Flame or Grim Monolith, GOOD. That's what you want them to do.


Gitaxian Probe is a fantastic addition to Belcher. We should be playing it as a four of.

[oblivion4560]

I skimmed over this forum starting when people added Gitaxian Probe to the deck. I'm getting a lot of mixed reviews between that, Street Wraith, and Manamorphose, aka the cantrips cyclers of the deck. I've extensively tested this deck since I got a playset of LEDs last week. Here is my opinion on each of these cards:

Gitaxian Probe: It's a free cantrip, look at your opponent's hand if you're clear to beat off, and add 1 to the storm count. Instant 4-of.

Manamorphose: I've never understood this card's placement in this archetype, especially with the release of Street Wraith and 1-land belcher. Not only is it a conditional cycle card (you need two mana in the pool to filter through it), it doesn't add anything to the pool, which is what everyone wants in this deck. Sure it gives color versatility, but when this deck turned into 1-land belcher, it lost black, so the color change isn't needed anymore. I cut this very shortly after I noticed it didn't do anything useful.

Street Wraith: Like Gitaxian Probe, it's a free cantrip, except it doesn't add to the spell count. This way, though, it can't be countered like how G Probe is weak to Mental Misstep. Most people won't look into these differences that much, but I felt like I needed to say that. Having free deck thinners like this will make 1st and 2nd turn kills a lot more consistent, and I wasn't happy with just 4 cantrips in the deck. So, I need to make room for this guy.

After many goldfishes, I noticed about 2 or 3 of the 50 or so times I ran into color issues pertaining to Tinder Wall. This is primarily a red deck, and not having the Elvish Spirit Guide or Land Grant for the Tiaga can make this deck very awkward if I need to start with Tinder Wall. Plus, I wanted to keep down my 1cc to Rite of Flame and G Probe, since turn 0 counterspells need to be at a minimum. I tried a few times replacing TW with Street Wraith, just to test my prediction of the 8 cantrip consistency.

This is where the die hard Manamorphose fans call me a hypocrite. All I have to say is try this build out a few times, and maybe you'll at least see where I'm coming from when I say that Manamorphose doesn't actually do anything, especially when more of your cards are red and you don't need to fix yourself on certain colors anymore:

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Rite of Flame
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
4x Land Grant

4x Burning Wish
4x Goblin Charbelcher
3x Empty the Warrens

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith

1x Taiga

[Clark Kant]

Street Wraith doesn't add to your storm count. Manamorphose does.

Street Wraith doesn't fix your mana (which you admit is sometimes relevent). Manamorphose does.

You can Chrome Mox a Manamorphose to be able to produce both green and red. You would never want to Chrome Mox a Street Wraith to produce black.

Street Wraith costs two life. Manamorphose doesn't. This is sometimes relevent especially since we added Probe and especially against hyperaggressive decks like burn or sligh.

If Manamorphose doesn't do anything, Street Wraith does even less. I personally think Cantrips are invaluable to this deck, to increase the probability of you getting into your key mana producers and your win conditions, but Manamorphose does that just as well as Street Wraith and has many other useful functions on top of that.

I don't see any good reason to play Street Wraith over Manamorphose. I think Gitaxian Probe is an automatic four of in every list. I think 95% of lists should also play Manamorphose. After that, if you can find the room for Street Wraith, by all means, play that as well.

Who cares about your cantrips getting countered? Worry about your Rite of Flames, Seething Songs, Burning Wishes, and Charbelchers getting countered, not your cantrips. Your opponent has better things to counter than your cantrips.

[lorddotm]

Plus, I wanted to keep down my 1cc to Rite of Flame and G Probe, since turn 0 counterspells need to be at a minimum. I tried a few times replacing TW with Street Wraith, just to test my prediction of the 8 cantrip consistency.


So now every time they draw a Mental Misstep, one of your best Rituals is a complete blank? That seems like a huge mistake.

[Final Fortune]

I can see how you would think drawing a card you can't cast and drawing something that cycles would make you think they are both blanks.

If you're relying on Manamorphose cycling into a key spell to win on turn 1 or turn 2 then you're playing Belcher completely wrong, and if you're top decking after having your first threat countered they're both pretty bad draws. The deck wants cards that consistently produce mana, not cards that add unnecessary variance.

[frogczar]

Has anyone thought of using Autumn's Veil in the sideboard instead of Xantid Swarm? It seems more proactive, like Silence in TES. If they counter it it adds to the storm count.

Having tested Belcher fairly thoroughly, the absolute worst opposing card (and often the only thing that prevents the deck from winning) is a Force of Will.

[median]

The problem with autumn's veil is that it subtracts from your availible mana on the turn your going off, you also aren't guaranteed it will resolve, while if it doesn't you can gamble and continue to go for it, xantid swarm is certain.

[oblivion4560]

personally, I've never really liked xantid swarm, and even less now that mental misstep is around. it's weak to a lot of hate. STP, path, bolt, and stuff. but i've never tried it myself, so i can't say anything bad about it, but thats what i see. please prove me wrong tho.

[median]

I'm a fan of guttural response, but I agree Mental Misstep has hurt the deck a lot.

[GoldenCid]

Street wraith, Gitaxian probe, Manamorphose? Why not all??

It tested my 12 cantrips Belcher with succesess!!!

// Lands
1 [U] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [IA] Tinder Wall
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [9E] Seething Song
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [M10] Pyroclasm
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 2 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [FNM] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor

Let's comment!

[Xero_2285]

@GoldenCid: It's funny to see this. I actually just put together the exact same 60 card list. I saw the 4 Probe sitting on my card table and said why not. I have not got much testing time with it but for like 7 games. 3 of them I managed 12 tokens, 1 of them I dropped 16, and 2 of them I tapped Belcher on turn 1. Only 1 game I had to Belcher on turn 3. 12 cantrips is nice, Probe helps storm count plus card draw. So far really liking it.

[John Cox]

I like the list. But just a small nitpick on your sideboard, I would run diminishing returns. It may sound weird but you use it for the same reason you use infernal.

[GoldenCid]

@GoldenCid: It's funny to see this. I actually just put together the exact same 60 card list. I saw the 4 Probe sitting on my card table and said why not. I have not got much testing time with it but for like 7 games. 3 of them I managed 12 tokens, 1 of them I dropped 16, and 2 of them I tapped Belcher on turn 1. Only 1 game I had to Belcher on turn 3. 12 cantrips is nice, Probe helps storm count plus card draw. So far really liking it.

Yeah! The only disadvantage if it can be called, is that with 12 cantrip, not 8, is more difficlt to rise the mana in pool to play Goblin War Strike for lethal or for t2 kill. Just that in my opinion.

[Clark Kant]

Yeah, the 12 cantrip build is very strong. I am glad you guys are having so much success with it.

If you fear all the lifeloss and cantripping, then I think there is merit in cutting Street Wraith since it does not add to your storm count, doesn't tell you your opponents hand, doesn't fix your mana, and is usually not a good imprint target for Chrome Mox.

I think absolutely 100% though, every single belcher list should be playing...
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose

There is no excuse to cut either card. I think Street Wraith belongs in the list too, but that is more up to personal preference.

[GoldenCid]

Actually i'm running 4 Street Wraith, 2 Grim Monolith and 2 Noxious Revival + the other 52.



I was testing revival (4 Probe + 4 Morphse + 2 Street Wraith + 2 Revival) and what i observed is that it could be great as well as poor. Ok, it always apport to the storm count but it potential shines when you have a cantrip in hand to "combo" with in other cases it's almost useless. However, in a MM infested meta it could help a lot. Nowadays, i added regrowth to the side to wish for in case it's necesary.
Has anybody maken any experience?

[thatoneguy]

I am playing RG belcher, and would like to see a sideboard for this deck. So far I have
4 red pyroblast
1 REB
4 shattering spree
1 goblin war strike
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens

I have 3 empty spots, what should I put in?

[evanmartyr]

I am playing RG belcher, and would like to see a sideboard for this deck. So far I have
4 red pyroblast
1 REB
4 shattering spree
1 goblin war strike
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens

I have 3 empty spots, what should I put in?

Xantid Swarm is very solid if you see a lot of countermagic in your meta. Tendrils of Agony is generally better than Grapeshot. Infernal Tutor can be very helpful, as can Reverent Silence.

[GoldenCid]

Xantid Swarm is very solid if you see a lot of countermagic in your meta. Tendrils of Agony is generally better than Grapeshot. Infernal Tutor can be very helpful, as can Reverent Silence.

+1. Tutor+ Tendrils are great!

[Beatusnox]

I am playing RG belcher, and would like to see a sideboard for this deck. So far I have
4 red pyroblast
1 REB
4 shattering spree
1 goblin war strike
1 grapeshot
1 empty the warrens

I have 3 empty spots, what should I put in?

My sideboard was different than this.

I had


4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering spree
1 Slagstorm
1 Goblin War strike
1 Hull Breach
2 Tormod's Crypt
or
2 Pyroblast

[thefoxman88]

Played the following list to Top 8 at Nationals Legacy Side-Event going 4-2.

Round 1 - Merfolk - 1-2
Round 2 - Merfolk - 2-1
Round 3 - Brain Fart - 2-0
Round 4 - Brain Fart - 2-1
Round 5 - Sneak Attack 0-2
Round 6 - NO Bant 2-1
Top 8 - Bant 0-2

Not going to write a full report because can't remember it all, but things to note from the day.
- Control players feel comfortable keeping hands with single Mental Misstep. In two of the game 3 games, I was able to lotus petal, lotus petal, LED, pitch 2x Guides into Belcher. And Lotus Petal, pitch x2 Guides into Seething Song into Belcher play LED. The look on their face when they look at the misstep in their hands is priceless.
- Dark Ritual wasn't awesome, and most of the time had to Manamorphose before I could cast it.
- Stifle is annoying, and worse then a hard counter when you are on the draw.
- The deck still mulls like a pile of junk, keeping a hand with 6 ramp, and no win is so much better then mulling to 5 any day.

QUOTE
2-Land Blecher


2-Land Blecher

Simian Spirit Guide 4
Elvish Spirit Guide 4
Tinder Wall 4
Burning Wish 4
Chrome Mox 4
Dark Ritual 4
Desperate Ritual 4
Empty the Warrens 3
Goblin Charbelcher 4
Land Grant 4
Lion's Eye Diamond 4
Lotus Petal 4
Manamorphose 3
Rite of Flame 4
Seething Song 4
Taiga 1
Bayou 1

Sideboard
Thoughtseize 3
Empty the Warrens 1
Hull Breach 1
Ingot Chewer 4
Pyroclasm 1
Tendrils of Agony 1
Xantid Swarm 4

[rupus]

Played the following list to Top 8 at Nationals Legacy Side-Event going 4-2.

Round 1 - Merfolk - 1-2
Round 2 - Merfolk - 2-1
Round 3 - Brain Fart - 2-0
Round 4 - Brain Fart - 2-1
Round 5 - Sneak Attack 0-2
Round 6 - NO Bant 2-1
Top 8 - Bant 0-2

Not going to write a full report because can't remember it all, but things to note from the day.
- Control players feel comfortable keeping hands with single Mental Misstep. In two of the game 3 games, I was able to lotus petal, lotus petal, LED, pitch 2x Guides into Belcher. And Lotus Petal, pitch x2 Guides into Seething Song into Belcher play LED. The look on their face when they look at the misstep in their hands is priceless.
- Dark Ritual wasn't awesome, and most of the time had to Manamorphose before I could cast it.
- Stifle is annoying, and worse then a hard counter when you are on the draw.
- The deck still mulls like a pile of junk, keeping a hand with 6 ramp, and no win is so much better then mulling to 5 any day.

QUOTE
2-Land Blecher

What are your thoughts on 2 land vs 1 land? Did you ever whiff on a belcher? I thought the main reason (besides dark rit of course) to go 2 land was to play some protection in the main (duress, etc). Was thoughtseize in the board any better than say REB would've been? Did you ever tendrils for the win? Anyways, I don't think there will ever be a way for this to not mull like crap until they unban wheel of fortune. I guess that's what you get for playing the most broken deck in the format.

[GoldenCid]

What are your thoughts on 2 land vs 1 land? Did you ever whiff on a belcher? I thought the main reason (besides dark rit of course) to go 2 land was to play some protection in the main (duress, etc). Was thoughtseize in the board any better than say REB would've been? Did you ever tendrils for the win? Anyways, I don't think there will ever be a way for this to not mull like crap until they unban wheel of fortune. I guess that's what you get for playing the most broken deck in the format.

The same for me!! Discard is the only reason for going into 2 land?

[Beatusnox]

The same for me!! Discard is the only reason for going into 2 land?

More or less as far as I know. You can use the discard as protection to go off. Odds of whiffing are still low with 2 Assuming you go off in your opening 7, it would be 1:53 odds of hitting a land IF you had one in your hand. If you land Grant, it is 1:52, and If you went off no land, 2:53. So while it is not much more likely to hit a land, it is still MORE likely. Also, most black splashes I have seen do Run Protection which takes away from the explosiveness of the deck.

[Beatusnox]

The same for me!! Discard is the only reason for going into 2 land?

More or less as far as I know. You can use the discard as protection to go off. Odds of whiffing are still low with 2 Assuming you go off in your opening 7, it would be 1:53 odds of hitting a land IF you had one in your hand. If you land Grant, it is 1:52, and If you went off no land, 2:53. So while it is not much more likely to hit a land, it is still MORE likely. Also, most black splashes I have seen do Run Protection which takes away from the explosiveness of the deck.

[adamliniscus]

I've been playing this deck for a bit and I think it's a really strong choice.

8 Spirit Guides
12 Free Artifact Mana
16 Red Rituals
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
1 Taiga
11 Win Conditions
Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Mental Misstep
5 Burning Wish Targets (Empty, Tutor, Pyroclasm, Reverent Silence, Diminishing Returns)
2 Shattering Spree

---

Here are a couple thoughts:

Manamorphose does so much for the gameplan. It imprints on Chrome Mox like a champ, drives up storm, helps cast Tinder Wall out of nothing but red mana, and occasionally finds the last mana you need to go off.

Mental Misstep is a dramatic improvement over REB. It protects your hand from Duress/Thoughtseize on the draw, and counters opposing Missteps on the play, all with no loss of tempo. You can punish a blue player for thinking their own Misstep will be enough to stop you. It is also a good proactive answer to Pithing Needle.

[GoldenCid]

True! Misstep is a great addition for the side and requires no colour splash!

[thefoxman88]

What are your thoughts on 2 land vs 1 land? Did you ever whiff on a belcher? I thought the main reason (besides dark rit of course) to go 2 land was to play some protection in the main (duress, etc). Was thoughtseize in the board any better than say REB would've been? Did you ever tendrils for the win? Anyways, I don't think there will ever be a way for this to not mull like crap until they unban wheel of fortune. I guess that's what you get for playing the most broken deck in the format.

Here is how I see it, I might be way off the mark but i'll have a shot. The list I played was one I found in a primer without any tweaks or tech, this build was for me to learn the deck before changing it around.

2-Land vs 1-Land:
- Can splash for Thoughtseize and sometimes you get the nuts Dark Ritual into Dark Ritual type draws.
- Saves them weird match's when you draw/mull into double Land Grant and no Chrome Mox to hide it under.
Other then that, it sometimes a pain.

The whole argument over REB vs Xantid Swarm vs Thoughtseize is all these answer get blown out by misstep, clear and simple, and its no very offten you got the mana to REB and go off in the same turn. So I like Xantid Swarm, and can work as a blocker if in a tight spot. But then again, if they keep a Misstep + Force back-up type hand your in a bad spot anyway.

I have had a few games were I did wif on Belcher due to having Bayou, but them games I atleast had a chrome mox on the board, so the rebuild didn't take to long to try again.

Winning with tendrils? Only time it was useful was during testing against ANT/TES going for a weak tendrils with storm of 5, leaves them in a bad spot to Ad Nauseam themselves to death.

[HokusSchmokus]

I am going to take Belcher to the German Nationals next Sunday.

The list I plan to play is:

1 Taiga
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Manamorphose
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Burning Wish
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Empty the Warrens

SB: 4 Xantid Swam
4 Pyroblast
1 Reverent Silence
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Shattering Spree
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike

Any suggestions for improvement?
What are the benefits of the 12-Cantrip version over 8 Cantrips?Or should I even cut Probe?Also, even though I am very happy with my SB the card I miss is Diminishing Returns. Maybe cut a War strike? Thing is, this sweet little card helps so much with racing Batterskulls.

[K1w1]

Hey HokusSchmokus,

first, are you going to Iserlohn?
If yes, i will see you there :)

Second, I'm running the exactly list like you. And i have to say Gitaxian Probe is nice.
You can use it first turn and cut the storm count if you want.

War Strike is a + to the Tokens. Iwouldnt cut it.

K1w1

[HokusSchmokus]

Iserlohn for sure! Are there any other German Nationals?:P

I was just thinking that maybe Mental Misstep instead of Red Blasts are worth considering. They do not get Force but all other relevant stuff. Plus chances are you won't be blowing up that many blue permanents anyway.

[K1w1]

Nice :)
I thought rly much about MM and Red elemental/Pyroblast.
I think the blast is better then MM, because they are using FoW for sure.
Ok, you can pay 2 life with MM to counter the other MM but in some cases are FoW and youcant counter it with MM.

K1w1

[HokusSchmokus]

Yeah i most likely will still use the Blast. From where are you going to IS?

[K1w1]

From Remscheid and i think you from Dortmund :)

I'm there at Friday/Saturday/Sunday i think.

But i dont know all these days because i have to go every day new from Remscheid - Iserlohn.

[rupus]

Street wraith is lame. 8 cantrips is fine. In the board you could probably cut infernal tutor or tendrils for returns. I never liked tendrils or tutor in belcher. Another card to consider is flame slash because it kills bears and batterskull. I always liked hull breach and carpet of flowers too but IDK how necessary they are. What's you're boarding plan vs blue? You have 8 cards to bring in so what are you taking out? Anyways, good luck at nationals!

[HokusSchmokus]

I think I will only cut tendrils. Tutor can be useful some times I think, especially g2-3.
Vs Blue I obviously put in Blasts + Swarms
I am not sure what to take out bc I don't have any practise in this deck aside from mws, but I went ok with
-1 Rite
-1 EtW
-2 Seething Song
-1 Mox
-1 Land Grant
-1 Petal
-1 X, probably Tinder Wall. I do this rather intuitive, worked out for me this far.