What will happen if flash isn't banned?

[blacklotus3636]

I know alot of people have already made up thier minds about flash and say it should and will be banned June 1st but what if the metagame adjusts and flash turns out to not make as strong a showing at grand prix cloumbus as everyone thinks? I remember dragon had alot of raw power and resliency but it was actually balanced out by the fact that it could be hated out with certain archetypes. I read in an article(I forget who wrote it sorry) on SCG that people wanted flash banned because they couldn`t play the decks that they liked anymore and all this fussing is just people not wanting to change. I`m not saying its true or untrue but its at the very least a point of view that should be explored. Perhaps I`m being too optimistic in saying this but part of me was hoping that flash might usher in a metagame shift that would leave legacy looking more like vintage because decks would have to be much faster to keep up with flash. I don`t want this to turn into another thread like the one we already have so if you could limit yourself to comments about how Legacy might evolve if flash stays after June 1. Thanks!

[Windux]

It will go on. Simple...

Prepear for the new Decks.

It's like Vintage. New Cards, new Decks, New Inviroments.

[Windux]

Great argument.
Sorry that not everybody in the world speak english that perfect like you do. Whatever, buy something with your Credit card.

Vintage is the best format to compare with Legacy.
There is no Editionrotation, only the changes with new cards and the B/R list and what player's do with the new cards.

It can't be that we are playing the same decks like 2005, just with some minor changes.

I bet you can take the old GP decks and still win some events with this.
I don't think Wizards is happy with this and now it's finally the time to change the direction in deckbuilding.
"Oh your deck sucks, it can't handle a First Turn Lackey"

[juventus]

Wow, your talking about vintage in a legacy forum and you don't know how to spell prepare or environment. Wotc has confirmed that they are gonna do something about flash but has not said what yet.

He is probably foreign and english is not his first language; give him a break. In any case you're making yourself out to be a huge douchebag since you can't spell you're.

I think if flash is not banned the format will suck. Flash is powerful to the point where it will force decks to play cards that are not very powerful in general, but are good against flash. There are no decks except the most dedicated blue control decks that can beat a well built Flash deck without some serious tweaking.

[odabella]

...There are no decks except the most dedicated blue control decks that can beat a well built Flash deck without some serious tweaking.

Almost every Aggro-Control Deck (Fish, Sui ,BW-Confi ,Thresh , Fearie Stompy ...) can beat Hulk Flash. They only add Leyline or Trickbind to the Sideboard and i think they have good Chances. Even Goblins could survive with hate in the sideboard. Don't panic :wink: .

[Zuriya]

If they don't want to kill inspiration they will ban Protean Hulk.
This way people will have to start thinking again ...

[Tacosnape]

I might have already mentioned this, but if Flash isn't banned I will punch a bunny in the face.

Oh, and if it is, I'll be in church all day the next Sunday.

[Finn]

Despite having even more cards available than Legacy, Vintage actually has an extremely small pool of realistic cards to work with. It just has a lot of unplayable cards tossed in as well. There are fewer playable cards, in fact, than in Standard, and most of the cards in every deck are going to be identical. Know why? Aggro does not exist. Therefor every deck must be Blue, Black, or both, because it's all some form of combo and control. Good deckbuilding skills and innovation are not rewarded. Vintage is only fun if you get off on using broke-ass cards.

I have no interest in playing Vintage. When 1.5 got seperated from the T1 restricted list, it got tons, I mean tons more interesting. I don't know if Flash really is all that, but its very existence means one thing:

Legacy = Vintage's little brother, again!

No f*cking thanks.

[insertnamehere]

The odds of this deck being as big as everyone saying it will be is pretty slim. Considering the following things happen:
A. Your opponent doesn't maindeck Leylines
B. You draw ample counters against any UX decks out there
C. You getting everything you need on the first turn.
D. You find some hole in the wall store that sells all of the junk rares for the deck. C'Mon who keeps older sets stocked full of cards. I was only able to find 12 Flash, 6 Hulks, 7 Gemstone Caverns, and 3-4 of every other junk rare within all 7 stores I visited. When I said Flash they looked at me like I was some Noob:confused:

[Lone Signal]

I bet you can take the old GP decks and still win some events with this.
I don't think Wizards is happy with this and now it's finally the time to change the direction in deckbuilding.
"Oh your deck sucks, it can't handle a First Turn Lackey""Oh your deck sucks, it can't handle Flash" is not really an upgrade for the format, it's sort of a sidegrade, if that.
Plus, stability of the format is an element that some people do enjoy. If people wanted a fluctuating format, there's Standard. And to a lesser extent, Extended. And it's not like no new deck ever surfaces in Legacy, nor that a rogue/metagamed deck never place tops.

[dre4m]

The odds of this deck being as big as everyone saying it will be is pretty slim. Considering the following things happen:
A. Your opponent doesn't maindeck Leylines
B. You draw ample counters against any UX decks out there
C. You getting everything you need on the first turn.
D. You find some hole in the wall store that sells all of the junk rares for the deck. C'Mon who keeps older sets stocked full of cards. I was only able to find 12 Flash, 6 Hulks, 7 Gemstone Caverns, and 3-4 of every other junk rare within all 7 stores I visited. When I said Flash they looked at me like I was some Noob:confused:

If this is your justification for saying Hulk Flash won't be huge, you need to consider:
A) You have to draw them, and very few people MD them.
B) This has never been a problem with 4 FOW 4 Daze and plenty of discard.
C) You don't need to!!!!!
D) Ever heard of Ebay? Or online magic shoppes? Both have plenty of Flash, Hulk, etc ready to go.

Seriously, the deck is BUHfuckingROKEN and admitting it is the first step to solving the problem.

[Weekend Daddy]

If the format continues to hold up Flash, I am assuming Belcher and TES will be the new top 3.

At that point, I'll show up the first Legacy tournament when I get back from the desert with a 40 card deck.

'Oh? This ISN'T Yugioh?'

[BreathWeapon]

Can some one show me a non-Protean Hulk version of Flash that is an argument for banning Flash as opposed to banning Protean Hulk?

Rector? Gamekeeper? Reanimator? Where's the "broken?"

[Phantom]

I would guess that Flash is more broken than Hulk. Gamekeeper is already a solid deck. I don't know for a fact that it will be broken with Flash, but it just seems much safer to ban Flash than to ban Hulk and have to keep an eye on all current and future sac abilities.

[Xero]

If they don't ban Flash, Wizards will have to make sure they never print cards with great leaves-play abilities ever again. That constrains design far more than banning Flash would.

[BreathWeapon]

If they don't ban Flash, Wizards will have to make sure they never print cards with great leaves-play abilities ever again. That constrains design far more than banning Flash would.

That's nonsensical, because the Eternal formats don't put design restraints on R&D, and even if they did, you'd still have to deal with it in Vintage to.

[Brushwagg]

If Flash isn't banned then Aggro will die. Goblins might hold on the longest, but it really can't fight the 2 card 2 mana combo.

@Leyline:Alot of people have mentioned this. But if the deck isn't playing counters or Black, then the Flash deck will simply bounce this and then win. Forget about tring to react it.

So ya if people thought the format was stagnant a little while ago, which it wasn't until Flash got good again, it will get very stagnant with a very small playable card pool.

[mikekelley]

If Flash isn't banned I'm quitting magic. Standard is boring as all get out, and I can't stand combo players.

I play the game to have fun with other people, you know, not watch a guy say "Island, ESG, GG"

[freakish777]

Flash a Gamekeeper won't be "I win right now" the same way activating Belcher isn't "I win right now" but both are close.

Notice how the price of Flash on all the websites went up a lot and not Protean Hulk (as much).

Flashing a Yosei locks your opponent down for a turn, Flashing a Mindslicer Mindtwists all players, Flash + Penumbra Wurm = 2 mana 6/6. None of these are close to "Flash resolves -> I win." But the point is obvious. Protean Hulk isn't (and never will be) broken.

[Bane of the Living]

Actually Flashing a Gamekeepers is almost as retarded as Hulk. The effect will basically sneak the Gamekeepers into play through counters better, since you can 'cast' him EOT, and kill him away for you. Then you dont need to rely on redonculous methods like Living Wish -> Kjedorean Dead. It also saves two mana for the combo since Flashing Keeper is 2 mana not 4. Leaving you the other 2 mana to activate your Salvagers.

Id laugh my ass off if Hulk is who gets taken down and shuffle up my new keeper deck. Remember Summoners Pact -> Gamekeeper too.

[freakish777]

Actually Flashing a Gamekeepers is almost as retarded as Hulk.

Right, hence not "I win right now" because you could chain into another GK without hitting the Therapy to keep chaining. Same as a belcher activation randomly hitting it's Bayou as the top card of their Library.

[meanee]

First of all, I don't think they will change anything but flash itself.
BUT if they, for some indcredibly odd reason, should decide to let flash live, the first deck I would built with it would start:
4 flash
4 sundering titan
Because sundering titan is the nutz with flash...

Also different stars - kokusho, jugan and, as someone mentioned, yosei... Flash is broken...

If Flash isn't handled by WotC then the first deck to play, wil certainly not be belcher and/or TES. Belcher dies horribly to flash - my record as of yesterday tells me that I lost 7 out of 7 pre-board games against FS flash... And if you should be lucky enough to encounter a deck that's not flash, you will get raped by the plethora of cheep/free counterspells everyone will be playing to win a flash game...
TES could be an okay choice in the meta though. The best deck would still be Hannifish... That deck is actually amazing against Flash. Meddling mage flash, and counter their sole answar... Easy. (My record as of yesterday says 3-0 against fs flash).

- meanee

[dahcmai]

I don't think killing just the Hulk would really work. There's plenty of other targets. It may not be a first turn wonder win, but it's still one heck of an early advantage. Hulk itself was a crap rare before flash opened it up. Flash is the problem and it's obvious.

Even allowing things like Flash, Rector, Eye of the Storm or some such, go silly, is really kind of dumb in a way. It would put a hamper on any new creatures with leave play abilities and any powerful enchantments ever printed from here on out by allowing it to stay as is without the Hulk.

I can't see it going past the post-GP bannings.


What I wonder is how someone didn't see that one coming in the first place. Flash had a reputation before it's errata anyway.



Oh yeah I'm going to the GP, so when you see some person standing up yelling "fuck yeah! Shaharzad!" at a Hulk player, that's going to be me. lmao! I intend to have some fun.

[Michael Keller]

I understand this thread deals with the big "what if" question of whether or not Flash will be banned, but I'll say it will be. I'll even go on record as to say the card will be restricted in Vintage. What makes the card so potent isn't the fact that it drops a creature into play at instant speed, it's the wording pertaining to the sacrifice that makes it so busted. I think it might have been an oversight. Until then we'll have to deal with it.

And unfortunately, this GP has been utterly bastardized by what Mr. Nightmare referred to as a "Mirage Block" deck. For me, Magic doesn't exist again until June 1st. That date is the Apocalypse for Eternal. We'll see what happens.

And for those people who are creating variants of the combo and trying to develop it, you're wasting your time. Seriously. It's a two card combo - we get the picture. There's no need to further break the most broken combo in the history of the game any more than it already is. On 6/1, it's history.

[Caboose]

Legacy = Vintage's little brother, again!

No f*cking thanks.

Holy shit, I agree with Finn for the first time in my life. This is the sign of end-times.

WotC needs to learn that Legacy isn't "Vintage Lite" and respond accordingly. :rolleyes:

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Honestly, and this is coming from an Elgin, I don't see the point in the enormous argument over banning Hulk vs banning Flash.

Does anyone remember how they fixed Affinity? 7 to the head, you know they're dead. They banned Bazaar and Entomb; why ban Dragon too? Why ban every single problem piece from Urza's? I think they've taken to a policy of not taking chances once they've decided that A)something needs to be banned, and B)that something isn't one overwhelmingly obvious card(such as Skullclamp).

My money is on both cards joining the list.

[Di]

My money is on both cards joining the list.

The Hulk-Flash scenario is much, much different than the others you listed. With Affinity, it was clear that every one of those cards was worth banning. Just because you got rid of the Ravager and Disciple didn't mean the deck was dead. If you left the artifact lands, chances are KCI would've run rampant. With Dragon combo, look at the cards listed: Bazaar, Entomb, and Worldgorger Dragon. Bazaar got axed for obvious reason of being the best land ever printed, but look at the others. Entomb, and especially now considering what has been printed in recent years, is retardedly good. Worldgorger Dragon didn't need Bazaar to be broken either; all it needed was any means of finding the graveyard. These combos differ from Hulk-Flash because all of the cards are incredibly good individually. I don't see why they would bother banning Protean Hulk when they know it's complete trash on its own. The card never saw play prior to Flash, and it probably won't afterwards either. There aren't any other cards even remotely close to Flash that would allow some retardedness from Protean Hulk to the point of banning it.

[dahcmai]

And unfortunately, this GP has been utterly bastardized by what Mr. Nightmare referred to as a "Mirage Block" deck. For me, Magic doesn't exist again until June 1st. That date is the Apocalypse for Eternal. We'll see what happens.



I am literally playing Goblins with 4 Shaharzads in the deck just out of protest. If they want to be silly, I can do that in style too. What's amusing is Shaharzad is actually decent against Hulk flash. Play with half your combo? Don think so.

It shall be momentous!

[sammiel]

Entomb being banned actually came up when I was hanging out with some friends to play casual today. They mostly think entomb shouldn't be banned, but then they also seem to think Hulk is fine and isn't destroying the format.

Does anyone else know people or have friends who actually think the format is fine with Hulk Flash? Cause I really could not believe that people thought this.

[beezy]

I wouldn't mind a meta shift from thresh, gobbos, etc as long as it wasn't a degenerate combo like Hulk Flash is.

[T is for TOOL]

The topic of this thread is the repercussions of not banning Flash. Comments related to the playskill of those that may not favor a banning do not belong. Keep it on topic.
-TOOL

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

To answer the titular question. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death)

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The Hulk-Flash scenario is much, much different than the others you listed. With Affinity, it was clear that every one of those cards was worth banning. Just because you got rid of the Ravager and Disciple didn't mean the deck was dead. If you left the artifact lands, chances are KCI would've run rampant. With Dragon combo, look at the cards listed: Bazaar, Entomb, and Worldgorger Dragon. Bazaar got axed for obvious reason of being the best land ever printed, but look at the others. Entomb, and especially now considering what has been printed in recent years, is retardedly good. Worldgorger Dragon didn't need Bazaar to be broken either; all it needed was any means of finding the graveyard.

All that Hulk needs is a way to get into play and then die.

All that Flash needs is something that's busted when it dies and/or when it comes into play.


These combos differ from Hulk-Flash because all of the cards are incredibly good individually. I don't see why they would bother banning Protean Hulk when they know it's complete trash on its own. The card never saw play prior to Flash, and it probably won't afterwards either. There aren't any other cards even remotely close to Flash that would allow some retardedness from Protean Hulk to the point of banning it.

Listen to yourself.

I'll tell you what. If you can work up some half-decent Dragon list with neither Bazaar nor Entomb, that isn't strictly worse than TES or Iggy Pop, I'll cede this point.

[Xero]

All that Hulk needs is a way to get into play and then die.

And how does that happen? Sneak Attack? Hulk was around for around a year before Flash was unerrated, and it didn't do anything. Why ban a bad rare when Flash is clearly the problem?


I'll tell you what. If you can work up some half-decent Dragon list with neither Bazaar nor Entomb, that isn't strictly worse than TES or Iggy Pop, I'll cede this point.

Can you make a dominant deck with Protean Hulk that dosen't involve Flash?

[Zach Tartell]

Can you make a dominant deck with Protean Hulk that dosen't involve Flash?

I toyed with him in Rec-Sur, but I just kind of didn't like how hard-casting him was pretty impossible. That's pretty much all that I can think of him beign good in.

[beezy]

Well I guess someone could try to make a deck (aside from Recur/Sur) with Show and Tell and sac outlets like Ashnod's Altar,Cabal Therapy, Claws of Gix, although it would probably not be as consistent or good.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

And how does that happen? Sneak Attack? Hulk was around for around a year before Flash was unerrated, and it didn't do anything. Why ban a bad rare when Flash is clearly the problem?

Why did they ban Dragon?

Why not? What's lost? Either another card with abusive potential, or a jank rare. Either way, no harm done by banning it.


Can you make a dominant deck with Protean Hulk that dosen't involve Flash?

A good portion of cards on the banned list would not create dominant decks if unbanned. Potential abuse is still there; that may be enough for it to get the axe. That and the utter lack of collaterol damage.

[Sims]

I actually think one of the arguments for the banning of Flash is also true of the Protean Hulk: It places a restriction upon future set and card development.

One of the major reasons for the banning of Flash and not Hulk is that without Hulk there isn't the super strong instant win combo that is known at the moment, but it would place serious restrictions on creatures with abilities that trigger when entering the graveyard... Except, on the flip side, they'll also be placing restrictions upon what could be used to put the card there (from play) or ways of cheating it into play for cheaper than it costs.

This may not seem like a very big deal... but it does matter. In the vein of Dragon, the Dragon is definately abuseable even without Entomb and Bazaar. Leaving it in the format would have just brought out the "Budget Dragon" decks that we had before, except with some combo accel and maybe tutoring it might be a bit more consistant than the previous budget version of the deck. It would also restrict cards that they could print regarding the discarding or placing of cards from the library into the graveyard for fear of smoothing out a way to dump the dragon and comboing off with it.

I feel this is a strong reason for the banning of Hulk along with Flash, to prevent it from slipping off their radar and having them print something down the line that may not interact strongly in Type 2, but rocks Extended and Legacy.

[DeathwingZERO]

I actually think one of the arguments for the banning of Flash is also true of the Protean Hulk: It places a restriction upon future set and card development.

If they do choose to leave either one, but ban the other, it really won't slow their choices on development. If they have something as broken a combination as Flash's ability for Hulk, or Hulk's ability to trigger through Flash, they'll just take care of a problem when it would arise again. I really don't think they'll have to worry about possible Legacy or Vintage interactions because of future cards, they even say they only test as far back as Extended (and very little at that).

I remember one of the WotC writers basically saying that worrying about too many possible interactions basically kills any real ingenuity with new cards. I think the whole point is to keep balance in Standard, Block, and with some amount of interest for Extended. Past that, both Legacy and Vintage are dealt with in a more open manner: if we break it, then they look into it. I personally am grateful we actually get the chance to make "shit" cards look good sometimes.

Hulk has really proven to be a one time thing, and hopefully they won't allow something that absurd to happen again. Flash deserves the same recognition. They already said the ability "Flash" is what they evolved it into, so now they at least have that issue dealt with.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

To answer the titular question. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death)

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. If Flash isn't banned, entropy in the universe will increase until there's nothing left but photons in the universe? I'm fairly certain that's going to happen whether Flash is banned or not. :P

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No. In the reality in which Hulk-Flash is banned, the Universe reaches a point of perfect equilibrium, and a species of penguin butlers evolve who serve us muffins for breakfast every day while we sit in bed reading the newspaper and listening to our own personal band made of clones of the original AC/DC lineup (or you can have Brian Johnson; both models are available).

[Di]

I'll tell you what. If you can work up some half-decent Dragon list with neither Bazaar nor Entomb, that isn't strictly worse than TES or Iggy Pop, I'll cede this point.

Did you ever look at any of the budget Dragon lists back then? Of course they were inferior to the deck running Bazaar, but at a time like now (pre-HF of course), they'd probably be very playable, and I daresay a viable tier 1.5 deck. A Reanimator shell that happens to win the game on the spot isn't anything to turn away from, considering Reanimator itself pops into the upper tables every once in a while.


All that Hulk needs is a way to get into play and then die.

I'll tell you what. If you can work up some half-decent Dragon list with neither Bazaar nor Entomb, that isn't strictly worse than TES or Iggy Pop, I'll cede this point.

I seriously doubt there is potential abuse left in Protean Hulk after Flash gets axed. What's the cheapest means of abusing it? Sneak Attack? Recurring Nightmare? By that time, the deck is slow as hell. If a Hulk combo isn't winning before turn 3 like the rest of the viable combo decks in the format, the card isn't broken and therefore nobody really gives a shit.

Now, I'll tell you what. If you can come up with a Protean Hulk list that wins that is fast and viable, I will concede my point. I will put money on the fact that whatever you come up with would be inferior on basically all points to an updated version of a budget Dragon list. There is honestly no potential for abuse from Protean Hulk. Seriously, how many of you even knew what the card was before the Flash fiasco? I sure as hell didn't know what it did. And it's not because I don't pay attention to the game and cards being printed, it's because it was a complete and utter crap rare. The card was never even mentioned in any type of list prior to Flash because there are seriously no alternate viable means of abuse.

[Zilla]

I seriously doubt there is potential abuse left in Protean Hulk after Flash gets axed. What's the cheapest means of abusing it?
Cheapest? A discard outlet and Reanimate + Therapy or Necromancy by itself. It could theroetically be decent. It wouldn't be broken by any means, given a heavy reliance on the graveyard, a requirement for more combo pieces, and being a turn or two slower. In any case, I think one of the main reasons that Dragon was banned (aside from potential brokenness) is that it creates a confusing, counterintuitive interaction with Reanimate, which is something they wanted to avoid. Banning Dragon was just easier than issuing errata to every reanimate effect for the purposes of clarity.

[Nightmare]

I knew what Hulk did - it found Azorious Guildmage and Masticore in my Type 4 stack.

[DeathwingZERO]

Zilla hit it pretty much head on, Hulk works to the advantage of Necromancy's "instant speed" shenanigans.

I've actually put together a shell for that deck, as it was nearly the exact same idea as the budget Dragon deck I was developing back when B&R split, and I was deciding if Dragon really deserved the axe.

To be honest, I'd say the Hulk has just as much possibility of coming back via Reanimator as Dragon did, as both will win the game at instant speed because of Necromancy. I'd go as far as to say with just a few tweaks, you could even use Elgin's "Jack Flash" deck as the core, with either a slight mill or discard modification.

On a similiar note, if you turned it into a true combo deck, you could just as easily maindeck anti-hate such as Needle for Crypts, etc. I would definitely say the deck would need much more protection though, as StP, Crypt, and especially Extirpate could cause serious issues. I highly doubt it'll be near the "Flash Hulk" broken, but potential is still there to be better than the rest of the combo top dogs of the format.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Did you ever look at any of the budget Dragon lists back then? Of course they were inferior to the deck running Bazaar, but at a time like now (pre-HF of course), they'd probably be very playable, and I daresay a viable tier 1.5 deck. A Reanimator shell that happens to win the game on the spot isn't anything to turn away from, considering Reanimator itself pops into the upper tables every once in a while.

Reanimator doesn't turn StP/Disenchant/Chain of Vapor/BEB/Edict/Stifle into a Rain of Salt.


I seriously doubt there is potential abuse left in Protean Hulk after Flash gets axed. What's the cheapest means of abusing it? Sneak Attack? Recurring Nightmare? By that time, the deck is slow as hell. If a Hulk combo isn't winning before turn 3 like the rest of the viable combo decks in the format, the card isn't broken and therefore nobody really gives a shit.

You could simply build a re-animator shell as Godzilla suggests.


Now, I'll tell you what. If you can come up with a Protean Hulk list that wins that is fast and viable, I will concede my point. I will put money on the fact that whatever you come up with would be inferior on basically all points to an updated version of a budget Dragon list.

Except for turning [any pinpoint removal] into a one-sided Geddon.

Which is kind of major, especially when you lose the speed you got from Entomb or Bazaar.

I think you're missing my point; Hulk without Flash would probably be somewhere in tier 1.5-2. Which is maybe the same level that Dragon would be. Either way, both cards have a lot of *potential* for abuse, and so it seems best to simply remove any potential future problems.

And I for one WAS aware of Hulk before Flash got de-erratad. The ability to grab any number of creatures with total casting cost 6 and throw them into play is inherently abusable, possibly to an unhealthy extent. I'm not sure the DCI will want to take that chance, since literally nothing would be lost if it were banned.

[Drathro]

Just before the rules change on Flash, I built a decent Reanimator Hulk deck that almost never went off later than turn 3, often on turn 1 with counter or discard backup. It certainly wasn't as broken speed-wise as Flash Hulk, but it played more like a classic WGD deck, in that it could play slower if necessary to fight through hate and still just win at an opportune time. I don't know that it was ban-worthy, but pre-Flash-errata, it was definitly going to be a surprise to the metagame.

I know some of you want to see a decklist, but there was so much new tech that came out of the Flash Hulk discussions, that the list I had should be considered pretty out of date by now. Interestingly, I cut Necromancy from the original deck - it was too expensive! Maybe with the new tech added, Necromancy would make a return. I haven't worked on the deck it since the errata change, since Flash is just straight-up better.

By the way, unbanning Entomb would be a bad idea. Entomb + Hulk would increase the number of turn-1 Reanimator Hulk kills to a bannable level.

[Evil Roopey]

Entomb being banned actually came up when I was hanging out with some friends to play casual today. They mostly think entomb shouldn't be banned, but then they also seem to think Hulk is fine and isn't destroying the format.

Does anyone else know people or have friends who actually think the format is fine with Hulk Flash? Cause I really could not believe that people thought this.

I think that it's an amazing thing for the format. It pushes people to play good cards like Duress and Therapy main instead of not being able to play such cards because of Goblins. I think that a format ruled by combo is much more interesting and fun than a format ruled by aggro, it makes games more interactive and punishes play mistakes more.

[Atwa]

I think that it's an amazing thing for the format. It pushes people to play good cards like Duress and Therapy main instead of not being able to play such cards because of Goblins. I think that a format ruled by combo is much more interesting and fun than a format ruled by aggro, it makes games more interactive and punishes play mistakes more.

I'm not too sure this is really healty for a format.

Sure, some good cards don't see that much play, because of Golbins. But would having a whole archtype uncompetive be that much better?

Most of the deckbuilding in the format is based around some sort of creature base. When winning with creatures isn't a real option anymore, we would shift in a sort of Vintage-lite format. We are seeing this already happening with Flash, where people are going to play combo or a controldeck so they won't lose against the combo. I do not think this is healty.

Having deck around which can win on turn 1 isn't that bad, but having the format end most games on turn 2 isn't that healty either.

And about making the format more interactive. What's more interactive, playing combo and counterspells, or playing every archtype which excists and let it be a battle of skill.

I really like playing combo, don't get me wrong. Having creaturesdecks unviable in the format won't do it any good however.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think that it's an amazing thing for the format. It pushes people to play good cards like Duress and Therapy main instead of not being able to play such cards because of Goblins. I think that a format ruled by combo is much more interesting and fun than a format ruled by aggro, it makes games more interactive and punishes play mistakes more.


I hope you're being facetious.

[Slay]

I hope you're being facetious.

I doubt it, considering he made Nausea.
-Slay

[Phantom]

I think that it's an amazing thing for the format. It pushes people to play good cards like Duress and Therapy main instead of not being able to play such cards because of Goblins. I think that a format ruled by combo is much more interesting and fun than a format ruled by aggro, it makes games more interactive and punishes play mistakes more.


I'm not sure I understand your comments. If you think the format is more fun, that's your opinion, and I won't argue with that, even though I disagree. I would question why you don't play Vintage.

Anyway, your comments on Duress and Therapy seem dead wrong. Some very successful decks run these cards mainboard (Red Death, GK, Truffle Shuffle). What you're talking about is a format that nearly FORCES you to run duress and therapy. I like my format to force me to run a good deck, not specific colors and cards.

Lastly, I think we have different definitions of interactive.

[Evil Roopey]

I'm not sure I understand your comments. If you think the format is more fun, that's your opinion, and I won't argue with that, even though I disagree. I would question why you don't play Vintage.

Anyway, your comments on Duress and Therapy seem dead wrong. Some very successful decks run these cards mainboard (Red Death, GK, Truffle Shuffle). What you're talking about is a format that nearly FORCES you to run duress and therapy. I like my format to force me to run a good deck, not specific colors and cards.

Lastly, I think we have different definitions of interactive.

Well considering good lists of all of those decks in the old format shouldn't be running Duress, I don't see your point. And yes, it does force you to run a different set of cards than Goblins forced you to run, but now you are playing cards that are more subtle in their power in the sense that you have to make more and better choices, making the skill level of the format increase.

I do play a lot of Vintage, but that doesn't mean I can't play Legacy as well.

What's your defintion of interactive? Your opponent playing a bunch of Goblins and you doing nothing but looking for your turn 4 Wrath? Or your opponent doing absolutely nothing but fluff for turns on end until they just outright win the game because you can't stop them? That is a horribly poor definition of interactive if you ask me.

[TeenieBopper]

What's your defintion of interactive? Your opponent playing a bunch of Goblins and you doing nothing but looking for your turn 4 Wrath? Or your opponent doing absolutely nothing but fluff for turns on end until they just outright win the game because you can't stop them? That is a horribly poor definition of interactive if you ask me.

As opposed to having your opponent go off before you even getting a turn?

Goblins is infinitely more interactive than just about any combo deck ever. That's like the implied definition of combo- non interactive.

[Phantom]

Well considering good lists of all of those decks in the old format shouldn't be running Duress, I don't see your point.

Ummm. Every list of Red death in the T8 forum runs Duress so I'm not sure where that's coming from. You may think it shouldn't run duress, but it's clearly viable. You may be right about Truffle, as I don't really keep up with it, and with Gamekeeper I was clearly talking about Therapy.


What's your defintion of interactive? Your opponent playing a bunch of Goblins and you doing nothing but looking for your turn 4 Wrath? Or your opponent doing absolutely nothing but fluff for turns on end until they just outright win the game because you can't stop them?

What decent Legacy decks do this against Goblins?


I do play a lot of Vintage, but that doesn't mean I can't play Legacy as well.


I never said you couldn't, I am just saying that there is already a format for people with tastes such as yours. No reason to turn Legacy into Vintage sans Lotus since most of its fanbase is clearly against it.

[Cerryl]

And yes, it does force you to run a different set of cards than Goblins forced you to run, but now you are playing cards that are more subtle in their power in the sense that you have to make more and better choices, making the skill level of the format increase.

What cards are more subtle than the cards that goblins forced you to run, and how are they more subtle? I'd like to see a card to card comparison here, because I'm not buying this at all.

[Zilla]

By "subtle" he means cards which require more thought or playskill. For example, Goblins forces white to run Swords to Plowshares as an answer to turn one Lackey. This is a significantly easier card to play than Cabal Therapy, where an innate understanding of the format and your opponent's deck will help you to play more optimally.

That said, I still think the argument is bullshit. Why force people to play "good" cards? Good players are already naturally inclined to play objectively powerful cards. People don't need an overbearingly broken combo that requires them to play these cards; if they're naturally strong, good players will choose them without being forced into it.

Objective power isn't the only relevant aspect of the game. In fact, identifying subjectively powerful cards requires far more skill as a deckbuilder and player than simply playing the objectively powerful ones. When a metagame forces players to choose from an extremely small cardpool, that element of skill is completely removed from the game.

In a wide-open, diverse metagame, a deckbuilder must identify his metagame, determine its weaknesses, and choose the set of cards which best exploits these weaknesses, build them into a deck, test it, tune it, and practice with it. These are huge parts of the game, and they cease to be relevant when the metagame consists of solely two or three viable decks.

When only the objectively powerful cards are relevant, there's no incentive whatsoever to explore or innovate. If you thought the metagame was getting stale when Goblins was king of the hill, just wait until you're playing in a format where only two colors are playable. It's exciting now because it's new and there's a lot of testing and innovation to be done. Once that intial exploration is over, this will be the most boring format ever conceived.

That's one of the main reasons that the majority of dedicated Legacy players are ex-Vintage players; they got bored of such a narrow, limited pool of viable cards and wanted some variation in deckbuilding and playstyles. Why would we want to give that up? Seriously, this isn't rhetorical: if you really want to play in a format where only the objectively powerful cards are viable, why wouldn't you just play Vintage?

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

There are other forms to abuse hulk, but also they're slower. I think hulk should be banned not flash.

[Zilla]

There are other forms to abuse hulk, but also they're slower. I think hulk should be banned not flash.
By that same argument, there are other forms to abuse Flash. Academy Rector and Sundering Titan come to mind.It's really the combination of the two cards that produces the brokenness, although Flash is the stronger of the two. Threre are more ways to abuse it and it's a blue instant, which is arguabley the strongest card type/color in the game. If they wanted to play it reall safe, they'd ban both. If it were just one or the other, Flash should be the one to go.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

By that same argument, there are other forms to abuse Flash. Academy Rector and Sundering Titan come to mind.It's really the combination of the two cards that produces the brokenness, although Flash is the stronger of the two. Threre are more ways to abuse it and it's a blue instant, which is arguabley the strongest card type/color in the game. If they wanted to play it reall safe, they'd ban both. If it were just one or the other, Flash should be the one to go.

You're talking about nonbroken combos. Also flash improves control (a good thing).

[Evil Roopey]

Ok, lets simplify everything.

The format that is run by Goblins is less interactive because it is slower. Stay with me. In Legacy, the amount of broken cards that take time is much more than the amount of cards that are broken in the first few turns. So, you can conclude that it is infinitely harder to interact with these things because they are more powerful.

Take Goblins for example, give an enough time there are very few decks that can even come close to stopping it. Same goes for Solidarity,Thresh, and GR Belcher. But on the other hand, Flash is a deck that is easily hated out and when it is, it leaves the format for change to slower things but only for a while until it can just come back and beat all the slow decks. This makes for a changing metagame, which means people have to add the skill of watching and identifying a changing metagame and how to shift it which adds loads of strategy to the game that doesn't exist in a stagnant metagame.

I like that aspect of the game, so that is why I'm always pushing for it. This is an opportunity for it to actually happen, and I hope it does and Flash doesn't get banned. It's just an opinion, if you don't like it ignore it and go on with your day, it doesn't matter anyways.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Ok, lets simplify everything.

The format that is run by Goblins is less interactive because it is slower. Stay with me. In Legacy, the amount of broken cards that take time is much more than the amount of cards that are broken in the first few turns. So, you can conclude that it is infinitely harder to interact with these things because they are more powerful.

Take Goblins for example, give an enough time there are very few decks that can even come close to stopping it. Same goes for Solidarity,Thresh, and GR Belcher.


You're not making any sense; you're saying the problem with the old meta-game was that there were too many decks that have some kind of inevitability if the opponent isn't doing anything or isn't playing another deck that tries to have some kind of inevitability, and that this makes it harder to interact but less skill intensive at the same time.

You're not being logically coherent, Bryan. Why is a deck harder to deal with because it gives your more time?


But on the other hand, Flash is a deck that is easily hated out and when it is, it leaves the format for change to slower things but only for a while until it can just come back and beat all the slow decks. This makes for a changing metagame, which means people have to add the skill of watching and identifying a changing metagame and how to shift it which adds loads of strategy to the game that doesn't exist in a stagnant metagame.

But you just said there were lots of decks that had similar strength levels. Now you're saying the deck can be "easily hated out", which isn't true, and that having blue-based combo-control duking it out with blue-based aggro-control involves skillful meta-gaming. I'm not buying this.


I like that aspect of the game, so that is why I'm always pushing for it. This is an opportunity for it to actually happen, and I hope it does and Flash doesn't get banned. It's just an opinion, if you don't like it ignore it and go on with your day, it doesn't matter anyways.

I love trying to gauge and prepare for meta-games. That's where most deck innovation comes from, in my opinion. But that's not what Hulk creates. When you try to build a deck in the Hulk meta-game, you've got to ask yourself "Why wouldn't I just want to win for 2 mana at instant speed, with counter back-up?"

I'm not sure how many legitimate answers there are to that question. I suspect very few.

[aTn]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. If Flash isn't banned, entropy in the universe will increase until there's nothing left but photons in the universe? I'm fairly certain that's going to happen whether Flash is banned or not. :P

Or worst, Gene Simmons might release another album of monkey music and get to show his new ass implants onstage.

Seriously, I guess the Fish smell wouldn't go away and Thresh lovers wouldn't get their chance to play their beloved Goyfs.

[Artowis]

You're talking about nonbroken combos. Also flash improves control (a good thing).

Non-broken until either a new busted enchantment to fetch w/ Rector or a new 'I ruin you when I die' type of creature gets printed anyway.

[Hummingbird TG]

Flash improves Control? How does blowing up all of Control's lands with a Titan do that?

[Zilla]

You're talking about nonbroken combos.
You're talking about nonbroken combos too. Reanimating a Hulk is hardly broken. You need a way to get it in your hand, a way to get it in the yard, and a way to reanimate it, and a way to get it in the yard again. All with the hopes that your opponent isn't running Tormod's Crypt, Leyline, or any other number of prevalent graveyard hate. You're basically talking about a slightly improved Reanimator strategy, which may be decent, but certainly not broken.

[Nihil Credo]

But on the other hand, Flash is a deck that is easily hated out and when it is, it leaves the format for change to slower things but only for a while until it can just come back and beat all the slow decks. This makes for a changing metagame, which means people have to add the skill of watching and identifying a changing metagame and how to shift it which adds loads of strategy to the game that doesn't exist in a stagnant metagame.You are arguing that a metagame revolving around the cycle of (Hulk -> Hulk-beating Fish -> Fish-beating "slow" deck like Goblins -> Hulk) somehow requires more skill than the Goblin-driven (but very open - you can't deny this) metagame we had before.

You are so very, very wrong.

[Evil Roopey]

You're not making any sense; you're saying the problem with the old meta-game was that there were too many decks that have some kind of inevitability if the opponent isn't doing anything or isn't playing another deck that tries to have some kind of inevitability, and that this makes it harder to interact but less skill intensive at the same time.

You're not being logically coherent, Bryan. Why is a deck harder to deal with because it gives your more time?

First of all, I'm making perfect sense you just aren't following me. Second, there weren't too many decks that had inevitability, there were like 4, and most other decks didn't even come close. And yes, when a decks power goes up it is harder to stop them, that is logic. So with that logic you can conclude that given enough time, which the deck we're referencing now is like 3-4 turns, they can't be stopped. Before Legacy was a race to piece everything together before your opponent and when you did there really wasn't anything that they could do. Now that it takes only a turn or 2 to set-up everything the power level of the deck is obviously lower, but the cards used to stop said deck are just as cheap and will most likely do the trick. So basically what I'm saying is that Hulk Flash is easier to stop on turns 1-2 than Solidarity or any of the previous decks were to stop on turns 4-5. This makes games more interactive because you can actually stop your opponent.

Now onto player's skill level. Before you had turn turn 1 Lackey vs. the world. It's pretty self explanatory how to stop said Lackey, you get rid of it. But now you don't have these guide-lines. You have turn 1 BS, turn 1 Duress, turn 1 Therapy, turn 1 Portent. Those are the staple plays now. These plays are inherently harder because they require choices that weren't there before. I'm not trying to say that playskill wasn't required before Flash, but rather that there is now more playskill required now.


But you just said there were lots of decks that had similar strength levels. Now you're saying the deck can be "easily hated out", which isn't true, and that having blue-based combo-control duking it out with blue-based aggro-control involves skillful meta-gaming. I'm not buying this.

Yes I am. Why? Because blue is just harder to play than any other color. Period.


I love trying to gauge and prepare for meta-games. That's where most deck innovation comes from, in my opinion. But that's not what Hulk creates. When you try to build a deck in the Hulk meta-game, you've got to ask yourself "Why wouldn't I just want to win for 2 mana at instant speed, with counter back-up?"

I'm not sure how many legitimate answers there are to that question. I suspect very few.

I think you are highly over-estimating Flashes power. Look at the deck, it can't possibly beat all the hate, there is just way to much of it. Especially the Kiki version, because it loses to Crypt and Needle as well as everything else.


You are arguing that a metagame revolving around the cycle of (Hulk -> Hulk-beating Fish -> Fish-beating "slow" deck like Goblins -> Hulk) somehow requires more skill than the Goblin-driven (but very open - you can't deny this) metagame we had before.

You are so very, very wrong.

No, I said that it required the skill of noticing when the meta shifts and that that is something that I like in a format. I like when decks are beatable. Goblins, Thresh, Solidarity, and GR Belcher are much less beatable than Hulk and Fish.

[Peter_Rotten]

I like when decks are beatable. Goblins, Thresh, Solidarity, and GR Belcher are much less beatable than Hulk and Fish.

I'm trying to follow you, but I'm not sure you are clearly saying what you mean. Do you mean that we have more effective single card hate against a deck like Hulk Flash? For example, a single LeylineotVoid ruins Hulk's game plan and must be dealt with? But decks like Thresh, Solidarity, CreT Belcher, and Goblins can play around hate? Goblins doesn't 100% need to remove a single plague? Thresh can sometimes wait out Dystopia? Belcher doesn't always need to remove Chalice? Solidarity can often CWish and Bounce?

If this is what you mean, then wouldn't that make those 4 decks better decks? More versatile decks?

Sorry, I'm confused as to what your point is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just don't get it.

[Evil Roopey]

I'm trying to follow you, but I'm not sure you are clearly saying what you mean. Do you mean that we have more effective single card hate against a deck like Hulk Flash? For example, a single LeylineotVoid ruins Hulk's game plan and must be dealt with? But decks like Thresh, Solidarity, CreT Belcher, and Goblins can play around hate? Goblins doesn't 100% need to remove a single plague? Thresh can sometimes wait out Dystopia? Belcher doesn't always need to remove Chalice? Solidarity can often CWish and Bounce?

If this is what you mean, then wouldn't that make those 4 decks better decks? More versatile decks?

Sorry, I'm confused as to what your point is. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I just don't get it.

I have stated many times that those 4 decks are in fact more powerful and more versatile than Hulk Flash. So, yes, that is what I'm trying to say. The point that I'm trying to make is that I don't think that it is healthy for those decks to exist in such a way because they make games unfun and they deprive interaction between opponents where Hulk is easier to beat so it is more interactive.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

First of all, I'm making perfect sense you just aren't following me. Second, there weren't too many decks that had inevitability, there were like 4, and most other decks didn't even come close. And yes, when a decks power goes up it is harder to stop them, that is logic. So with that logic you can conclude that given enough time, which the deck we're referencing now is like 3-4 turns, they can't be stopped.


That's the worst logic ever. If we can conclude that deck's power increases over time, then why wouldn't starting at a much higher power level make that increase even more signifigant?

And why are we even making that assumption? Are we assuming the position of a deck that doesn't do anything? The number of decks that have viable interaction against at least some of those 4 decks is insane.

In the environment you're describing, all I have to do to compete is be able to put up resistance by turn 3.

To answer Goblins you need to be able to deal with a turn 1 Lackey OR deal with a turn 3 Aether Vial(because turn 4 is when it matters) OR be able to deflect their attack step somehow(Zombie Infestation or Solitary Confinement) OR be able to win before turn 4.

I don't mean to imply this is easy, but there are a lot of strategic outs.

Against Threshold you need to be able to attack their low threat count(Pernicious Deed, Wing Shards) or play too many must-counters for them to deal with(most Survival builds, Trainwreck).

To deal with Solidarity you need to either attack their hand(Red Death), or counter their spells(Thresh) and have a clock by turn 3-4. Solidarity is certainly the closest to what you're describing; in fact, its greatest strength is its inevitability. I do think the format would benefit from losing Reset, but it's not the same ballpark as Hulk.

RG Belcher is a concern, but using it as an argument is kind of flawed, since it was never part of the established meta-game, though that would probably have changed pretty quickly. However, against this kind of combo you get a few outs you don't have against Hulk; 1) CotV is/was the new Tormod's Crypt. It's a free artifact everyone can run that hoses most of the combo in the pre-Hulk meta-game. It costs 4 if you want to do anything to Hulk. Good luck with that. 2)Empty the Warrens, while improving your game against aggro-control, also gives other decks outs against you.

To compete against Hulk, I need to put up disruption by turn 1 and it needs to be in multiples. This assumes the same position vs. Lackey of being on the draw; if they go off turn 2, they can easily have a counter or discard of their own, meaning I need 2 counters with one mana. I have Stifle, Duress, Daze, FoW, and maybe Unmask and Shoal. This doesn't point towards a lot of deck flexibility. Alternately, I could play hate, and then add Leyline of the Void to the mix, which requires a bounce spell *if* I have it in an otherwise playable opening hand. And are we talking about MDing Leyline? SBing? And what advantages does playing a non-hulk deck with Leyline in the SB have over playing Hulk with Leyline in the SB??


Before Legacy was a race to piece everything together before your opponent and when you did there really wasn't anything that they could do.

Considering the number of decks that either COULD race or COULD do something about it, I'm not sure what you're basing this on.

Say that you're concerned about Goblins and Threshold in your meta-game. Well then you might want to consider Rifter, Landstill, Rabid Wombat, Aluren, or a meta-game Goblins(tweaked for the mirror) or a meta-gamed Enchantress(tweaked for Threshold).

If you're concerned about Belcher and Solidarity, you might want to play Threshold, Slivers, or Red Death. Or if you anticipate a lot of people playing those aggro-control decks because of anticipated amounts of combo, maybe you want to play Stax, or a variant of Truffle Shuffle or Dirt.

What you're saying simply isn't sensible. The more pieces in the equation, the more complicated it is, the more skill it takes to meta-game properly.


Now that it takes only a turn or 2 to set-up everything the power level of the deck is obviously lower, but the cards used to stop said deck are just as cheap and will most likely do the trick. So basically what I'm saying is that Hulk Flash is easier to stop on turns 1-2 than Solidarity or any of the previous decks were to stop on turns 4-5.

Define "easier". I'm not sure you've done much testing with the slow-roll versions of Hulk-Flash, since they kind of blow your argument out of the water. Hulk isn't forced to go off early, and it can pack more disruption than Solidarity can, making it actually a lot harder to fight in the mid-game through most conventional means.


This makes games more interactive because you can actually stop your opponent.

Given that in the previous meta-game, decks actually lost rounds, sort of out of necessity, I believe it was possible for decks to be stopped. That's what happens in a match; one deck is stopped from achieving its objective, and the other achieves its goals.


Now onto player's skill level. Before you had turn turn 1 Lackey vs. the world. It's pretty self explanatory how to stop said Lackey, you get rid of it. But now you don't have these guide-lines. You have turn 1 BS, turn 1 Duress, turn 1 Therapy, turn 1 Portent. Those are the staple plays now. These plays are inherently harder because they require choices that weren't there before. I'm not trying to say that playskill wasn't required before Flash, but rather that there is now more playskill required now.

Those plays all existed before Hulk-Flash. So did turn 1 Vial, go, or turn 1 Exploration, go, or turn 1 Careful Study, go, or turn 1 Birds of Paradise, go, or turn 1, Archbound Worker, go, or turn 1, Lightning Bolt, go, or turn 1 Mother of Runes, go.

And what's more, there were turn 2 plays also, and turn 3 and turn 4 and turn 5 plays. As the game wears on strategies are forced into conflict. The fact that Goblins in the old meta-game was marginally better than the rest of the field doesn't mitigate the fact that Hulk is vastly superior to the rest of the field.


Yes I am. Why? Because blue is just harder to play than any other color. Period.

It is because it is. Period. That's ridiculous.

A)If anything, black is the hardest color to play.
B)Thinking of it in terms of what color is hardest to play is just lazy thinking. What blue deck are you talking about? Solidarity? True. Aluren? Which part of Aluren is hardest to play? The blue parts? The green parts? The black parts? What about Slivers, or Threshold, or Landstill? Playing a complicated strategy requires skill. Believe it or not, even Goblins requires considerable skill, though the threat density of the deck makes it more forgiving of mistakes.


I think you are highly over-estimating Flashes power. Look at the deck, it can't possibly beat all the hate, there is just way to much of it. Especially the Kiki version, because it loses to Crypt and Needle as well as everything else.

Yet those both lose to Deed.

I think the existence of both kills makes it pointless to try to play the hate. A smart player will look at the field when deciding to run Tormod's Crypt and think "This will be useful IF I play against Hulk and IF that Hulk is the Kiki-version and IF they don't have an answer for it and IF I draw it and IF it can make up for losing game 1."


No, I said that it required the skill of noticing when the meta shifts and that that is something that I like in a format. I like when decks are beatable. Goblins, Thresh, Solidarity, and GR Belcher are much less beatable than Hulk and Fish.

Well that's certainly true of the latter. I don't see how any of those are less beatable than Hulk. Every color has a deck with a good match against Goblins; Slivers, Enchantress, Aluren, fast combo, LftL control. The same is true of Threshold; Trainwreck, Survival of all kinds, Goblins, MWC. And Solidarity has less spread match-ups, and many more strategies that just fold to it, but on the other hand, it has a much worse match-up against Threshold and black-disruption than Hulk does, and it can race fast-combo less effectively. Belcher is good, but it has a bad aggro-control match-up and can be hosed by a free artifact that any color can run.

The point is that the old meta was very complex and skill-intensive, and turning this into Brainstorm.Go.Format doesn't in any way make the game more challenging. This appeal to the mythical skill level of Brainstorming into Force of Will is ridiculous. Meta-gaming is a skill. That's dead now. Deck-building is a skill. That's dead now. Tuning your sideboard is a skill. That's pretty easy when there are two decks to worry about. Familiarizing yourself with multiple deck strategies is a skill, and when there's only two, it becomes pretty simple.

[mogote]

I have stated many times that those 4 decks are in fact more powerful and more versatile than Hulk Flash. So, yes, that is what I'm trying to say. The point that I'm trying to make is that I don't think that it is healthy for those decks to exist in such a way because they make games unfun and they deprive interaction between opponents where Hulk is easier to beat so it is more interactive.
Why is it unhealthy for those less broken decks to exist?

Today I attended a local Legacy tournament with 2 duals as 1st price and 1 dual as price for 2nd place plus boosters for 3rd/4th. Originally the store wanted to give away more duals and boosters but attendance was lower than expected with only 11 players.
I'm pretty sure this is an effect of Flash as not everyone is willing to play in a Flash metagame or doesn't have access to a blue-based deck. After the tournament some participating players also announced to stop playing Legacy until Flash would be banned.

The metagame was diverse in a way:
3 Hulk Flash
2 UWb Fish
2 Solidarity
1 UGr Threshold
1 UGw Super Gro
1 Faerie Stompy
1 Landstill

The only noticable thing besides Hulk Flash being the most played deck was that every deck being played was blue-based. That seems rather absurd and I hope other colors will get playable again.
The way I see it Flash needs to be banned even if Hulk Flash variants can be hated out if the whole field is blue-based (no Hulk Flash finished better than 2-2 and all of them stayed outside of prize range).

[MattH]

I think what Roopey is trying to say (in part) is that it was obvious what you needed to do to stop Goblin Lackey, whereas it isn't as obvious what you need to do to stop Hulk.

LMK if I'm reading this wrong, I'm not confident in it at all.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I get what he's trying to say; he's wrong. It is obvious what you have to do to stop Flash; counter it or make them discard it. The other options are Stifle and Leyline. Everything else is situational. The problem is that the majority of the cards that can stop the combo are easily supported by the deck itself, pretty much trumping good reasons to run anything else.

[Nihil Credo]

No, I said that it required the skill of noticing when the meta shifts and that that is something that I like in a format. I like when decks are beatable. Goblins, Thresh, Solidarity, and GR Belcher are much less beatable than Hulk and Fish.
In other words, you are one of those players who enjoy warped, horribly broken metagames. Good for you. I'll let you know if I find the other one, so you can spend some awesome afternoons playtesting Affinity Block Constructed without a banned list.

In the meanwhile, please stay away from our open format.

[Rood]

I seem to like the idea of Hulk Flash being in the format...at the least it will give people something to think about and it will be funny to see people get owned before they finish drawing their hand. Sad part is, it will be Hulk vs. Hulk hate/Fish type decks for a long time, and people don't like rediculously lame meta-enviroments like that.

[CleverPetriDish]

In my area Flash has not been overly powerful. It's just another good deck in a meta that has changed to fight it. And it isn't just Flash and anti-flash either.

[MattH]

I get what he's trying to say; he's wrong. It is obvious what you have to do to stop Flash; counter it or make them discard it. The other options are Stifle and Leyline. Everything else is situational. The problem is that the majority of the cards that can stop the combo are easily supported by the deck itself, pretty much trumping good reasons to run anything else.

No, I meant more along the lines of the example he gave: do you Duress, Brainstorm, or lay a creature turn one? If you have a FoW, Stifle, and Brainstorm, what do you do when your opponent casts Duress? Those kinds of decisions are not obvious, and the contention seems to be that those kinds of decisions don't come up when playing against goblins. Against goblins, you don't get battles over information the way you do with Hulk. It sometimes comes up but not as often as Hulk, and it's of less importance when it does.

[TheRock]

These Flash arguments and comments remind me a lot of the things made against/for Trinisphere in T1 quite a while back. Trinisphere was definitely format distorting -- it took a fairly limited card pool (at that time of course) and made it a very limited card pool.

Legacy has a pretty good card pool to work with and Flash takes a lot of that away because of the raw power and versatility that it has. Taking this historical view into account, the protocol should be obvious.

Granted, I also don't know what all of your views on cards like Goblin Lackey, Goblin Ringleader, Nimble Mongoose, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Dark Confidant, Empty the Warrens, Lion's Eye Diamond, High Tide, etc., are, but I think any decent Legacy player knows about them. However, Flash can sure use a lot of those cards (minus obvious exceptions of course) just as well as the other decks in the format can. That's sick.

I'm sorry, but Flash has got to go.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

No, I meant more along the lines of the example he gave: do you Duress, Brainstorm, or lay a creature turn one? If you have a FoW, Stifle, and Brainstorm, what do you do when your opponent casts Duress? Those kinds of decisions are not obvious, and the contention seems to be that those kinds of decisions don't come up when playing against goblins. Against goblins, you don't get battles over information the way you do with Hulk. It sometimes comes up but not as often as Hulk, and it's of less importance when it does.


But that presumes that the decisions made in information wars are more important for determining playskill than decisions made in the combat phase. Not only more important, but so much so that the format doesn't even deserve the latter set of decision making skills.

While it may be exciting to fight a heated counter-war over a Brainstorm, this shouldn't come at the expense of all the other kinds of decisions that the game can involve.

It's kind of like saying that Vintage is more skill intensive than Limited. While the decisions you're talking about may not be immediately obvious, with a little practice you can cover the majority of those situations. When the field is more open(pre-Flash Legacy, and moreso Limited), you have to do more thinking on your feet. There will be more unexpected plays and interactions, and that creates a very skill-intensive format.

[diopter]

Legacy has a pretty good card pool to work with and Flash takes a lot of that away because of the raw power and versatility that it has. Taking this historical view into account, the protocol should be obvious.


The same can be said for Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Empty the Warrens, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony... the list goes on and on. There are a lot of format distorting cards in Legacy - surely not all of these cards should be banned?

If it's a matter of scale, then yes, Flash might be too powerful to be left alone. But you'd really have to have tournament results to back that up. Luckily GP Columbus looks like it might be making your case for you.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

The same can be said for Goblin Lackey, Aether Vial, Swords to Plowshares, Force of Will, Empty the Warrens, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual, Tendrils of Agony... the list goes on and on. There are a lot of format distorting cards in Legacy - surely not all of these cards should be banned?

If it's a matter of scale, then yes, Flash might be too powerful to be left alone. But you'd really have to have tournament results to back that up. Luckily GP Columbus looks like it might be making your case for you.

There are two ways to make knowledge out of opinion; the one you're talking about is from observation alone. The second way is through experience(past observation) combined with logic.

It's becoming moot, as the GP is showing what people have been saying pretty well. But it's not as if there was no way to see this coming; all you needed was experience with this format, and experience with a one-deck format like Ravager-Standard or old Dragon-1.5, and experience with the deck itself. I'm not even sure that last was necessary; common sense should tell you that when people consider combos like Aluren playable(4 mana, double green, +Cavern Harpy+Raven Familiar/Spike Feeder, +greater deck commitment to the comb(albeit the pieces aren't as useless on their own)), 2 cards and 2 mana at instant speed in blue, of all colors, isn't exactly "fair".

[Evil Roopey]

There are two ways to make knowledge out of opinion; the one you're talking about is from observation alone. The second way is through experience(past observation) combined with logic.

It's becoming moot, as the GP is showing what people have been saying pretty well. But it's not as if there was no way to see this coming; all you needed was experience with this format, and experience with a one-deck format like Ravager-Standard or old Dragon-1.5, and experience with the deck itself. I'm not even sure that last was necessary; common sense should tell you that when people consider combos like Aluren playable(4 mana, double green, +Cavern Harpy+Raven Familiar/Spike Feeder, +greater deck commitment to the comb(albeit the pieces aren't as useless on their own)), 2 cards and 2 mana at instant speed in blue, of all colors, isn't exactly "fair".

Flash only put 3 people in the top 8 and won. Goblins has been doing that forever, and nothing has been banned from it.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Flash only put 3 people in the top 8 and won. Goblins has been doing that forever, and nothing has been banned from it.

Goblins never did that in a field of 50%+ board control.

Read the GP(Day 2) thread above, and you'll see your point addressed.

[Barook]

Flash only put 3 people in the top 8 and won. Goblins has been doing that forever, and nothing has been banned from it.
PT Rome only had a few Academy/High Tide decks (if i remember it correctly, 3) in its Top 8, too, and we all know that the DCI banned the deck into oblivion afterwards.

[diopter]

PT Rome only had a few Academy/High Tide decks (if i remember it correctly, 3) in its Top 8, too, and we all know that the DCI banned the deck into oblivion afterwards.

People were kinda actively leaving the game at that point.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

People were kinda actively leaving the game at that point.

I think from all the buzz, WotC can figure out that it will lose a lot of players if we have FS legal and no June banning. A lot of people skipped the GP because of pre-FS Flash and they didn't even have a chance to ban it.

[Elfrago]

If Flash is not banned, people and decks will adapt to it and things will be better than before.

[Cabal_chan]

If Flash is not banned, people and decks will adapt to it and things will be better than before.

If "by better" you mean a combo deck that runs a 2 mana instant as a win condition along with disruption and/or counters to protect it, then yes. Oh, don't forget it will have tutors too. Comtria.

[Puzzle]

If Flash is not banned, people and decks will adapt to it and things will be better than before.And internet will be free of baseless comments.
How do you back that up ?

[diopter]

I think from all the buzz, WotC can figure out that it will lose a lot of players if we have FS legal and no June banning. A lot of people skipped the GP because of pre-FS Flash and they didn't even have a chance to ban it.

The GP still had 883 players, impressive by many accounts. A lot of the Legacy regular community skipped the GP, but there were enough new Legacy players to replace them, presumably.




And internet will be free of baseless comments.
How do you back that up ?

Some of your fellow anti-Flash Sourcers are guilty of baseless comments too.

[swishandamiss]

I was sickened by the comments of how everyone in the Top8 either did not care if it got banned or said it doesn't need to be banned

[sammiel]

Im pretty confident they would have broken a thousand if Flash hadn't been changed, and I know I would have gone.

[Evil Roopey]

I was sickened by the comments of how everyone in the Top8 either did not care if it got banned or said it doesn't need to be banned

That's cuz they are better at Magic than you and they know it shouldn't be, moron.

Warned for flaming. -Zilla

[swishandamiss]

That's cuz they are better at Magic than you and they know it shouldn't be, moron.
2 card instant speed combos should not be banned in a format where creatures have been known to dominate and in a format that wizards gives little support, so you are right it doesn't matter... :/

[noobslayer]

If Flash ins't banned I will have a new deck. I actually and honestly like playing the deck. I'd really like to see with a few more months of playtesting and tooling what it is really capable of. But, I won't shed tears if it gets the axe.

[Amon Amarth]

I was sickened by the comments of how everyone in the Top8 either did not care if it got banned or said it doesn't need to be banned

Agreed. Gadiel's comment in particular irked me.

Honestly, I would quit playing Legacy. Flash isn't good for the format. It distorts the format so heavily where only Black and Blue are playable. It is far better than most of the Banned list. It's WAYYY better than Dragon + Entomb.

[Nihil Credo]

I actually didn't mind Gadiel's comment that much. That was honestly how he felt about the issue, and it would have been inappropriate of him to express an opinion on a format he doesn't play.
More troubling, to me, are those who picked up Legacy right after Flash got in the meta and now think they're playing Vintage Lite. Some people may enjoy fightning counterwars over a Brainstorm, but I'd like it to be a rare event.
I've been playing only T2 and Extended since Flash entered the meta and will continue doing so if the deck isn't banned. Dammit, I play Magic because it's a wonderfully complicated game of resource management - if you take away "board development" from the list of such resources, that's narrowing the game.

[eternaldarkness]

Nods. The format is becoming too much like Vintage without the Power. And it is certainly not to my liking. The attack phase, board position, aggro decks...all of these stuff make Magic interesting. Taking them away is a huge mistake. Legacy was unique in that it was an eternal format that had aggro decks. Still do, but if Flash isn't answered then we may see the end of aggro.

What is bothering me though is that what if the descent to combo vs control metagames is a natural evolution of eternal formats? We are talking about (semi-) unlimited access to ALL of Magics cards here. Is it that surprising that a combo deck is the BEST deck? Vintage had aggro decks once a long time ago before people started fine tuning their combo/control decks.

I guess what I'm saying here is that even if we take out Flash, what's stopping another broken combo deck to replace the dethroned king?

[Nihil Credo]

I guess what I'm saying here is that even if we take out Flash, what's stopping another broken combo deck to replace the dethroned king?To be perfectly blunt: bannings. Yes, new cards thrown in the pool will eventually give rise to powerful combos. However, it is in Wizards' best interest not to have two formats that are too similar. There are people right now who enjoy Legacy but dislike both Vintage and Extended - many of them on this very forum. Having the format lose its aggro component (i.e. turn into Vintage Lite) would make this kind of people sharply reduce their involvement in the game, and in all likelihood eventually drop the game altogether.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Also, CotV is a pretty big roadblock to any other fast combo deck in the format. It's not like it's an instant win vs Tendrils-combo, but it's certainly flexible and powerful enough to take some of the bite out of non-Flash combo.

Although you could easily make a case for banning LED; it's going to happen sooner or later anyway.

[FoolofaTook]

Vintage had aggro decks once a long time ago before people started fine tuning their combo/control decks.

I guess what I'm saying here is that even if we take out Flash, what's stopping another broken combo deck to replace the dethroned king?

Aggro decks were the king of tournament Magic for the first year with combo decks and mana deprival decks placing fairly well and control somewhat out of the picture despite Zak Dolan's deck. He was a very good player, which is why that deck performed so well.

Then Balance came along and suddenly counters were the only non-Balance solution with any resiliency and the W/U/r control decks became a staple of the top 8's. That's when Aggro really lost it's grip. Balance rocked it back onto it's heels and Control slammed it into the ground

[Phantom]

I do find it mildly amusing that the people that want/wanted me to adopt a reasonable view, in their mind about Flash, and not claim that the sky is falling, are the same ones that are trying to convince me that aggro being marginalized is inevitable in Legacy.

They are telling me not to overreact to Flash because we have (or had) no hard evidence to support the wild claims of the best players and minds in the format, but they are trying to convince me of something that we have hard evidence AGAINST!

Since Legacys inceptions as we know it, it has been hailed as a format destined to be dominated by combo. Despite this, an aggro deck has been the best deck in the format pretty much the entire time.