[Deck] Empty the Slogger

[Tao]

I found this deck here:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=8192

2 (unknown) people played the deck on a 32 man online tourney and both finished Top4. The deck may look janky, but it is very strong and a lot of fun to play.

I played a similar version of this deck together with a friend (we used exactly the same list) in a small German online tourney. We could finish 1st and 2nd and the deck is quite strong:

http://www.germagic.de/dc/deck.php?id=8192

This would be the Version with Future Sight in a Non-Flash meta (the deck can't beat Flash):

// Mana
10 [TSP] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [EX] City of Traitors

// Creatures
4 [PCS] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Arc-Slogger
4 [PC] Sulfur Elemental
4 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [PS] Flametongue Kavu

// Spells
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Rift Bolt
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
2 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 2 [b] Winter Orb
SB: 2 [8E] Boil
SB: 2 [UD] Powder Keg


Card Choices:

Fast Mana:
Tomb, City and Mox are known from Faerie Stompy, Song from Dragon Stompy. Simian Spirit Guide gives you even more fast Mana and can be casted as Equipment carrier.


Key cards:

Chalice of the Void: Also known from Faerie and Dragon Stompy. No discussion needed here, I think.

Empty the Warrens: One of the best cards in the deck and one of the reasons why I decidewd to make a new thread instead of keep posting into the Dragon Stompy thread. It is an uncounterable threat against Control and a very big ETW can overwhelm other Aggro decks. Furthermore it turns otherwise dead draws like Chrome Moxen and Seething Songs into Raise the Alarms. Play it.

Magus of the Moon: You can always play it on Turn 2 and often on Turn 1. It kills a LOT of decks in the Format because it comes so fast that the oppent may be unable to fetch for his Basics. Furthermore it offers Wasteland protection and can help against the drawback of City and Tomb.

Equipment: It makes ETW tokens, Simian Spirit Guides and Magus to bigger threats.

Good cards:

Arc-Slogger: The biggest threat in the deck. Not much else to say about it.

Flametongue Kavu: Only two because it ay be a dead draw. But often a great Tempo swing.

Rift Bolt: I am thinking about cutting it for more Swords and Kavus. But it is quite strong: it is better than Lightning Bolt because it goes around Chalice 1 and increases Storm Count for ETW.

Sulfur Elemental: Everyone who played Standard in the past half year knows why Flash and Split Second are great. His 3rd ability takes out Mother of Runes, Soltari Priest makes him trade with Jotun Grunt and enable Kavus to take out Exalted Angels.

[BreathWeapon]

The interesting thing about ETW is that it also forces the opponent to counter the Seething Song, in order to prevent the mana and storm count from resolving ETW thru' their counter, when the Seething Song could be casting the Arc-Slogger, always leaving the threat in your hand after their counter.

I can't stand the equipment or the Sulfur Elemental, and I'd much rather use Trinisphere and Goblin Siege Gang Commander, since the original mana base was designed to support eight five casting cost creatures, and the new mana base is designed to cast turn one 3cc bombs (you should really use Blood Moon in your SB over Boil for this reason).

Other creatures to consider are Warmonger and Dwarven Blastminer in the MD, because Warmonger > Flametongue Kavu against Goblins and it's a four turn clock, and if the opponent uses its ability to kill it, then its Wrath of God, Shock and Mana Short all in one card. Dwarven Blastminer is just a flexible card at 3 for 2/2 or 1R for 1/1, and it can win a game on its own against aggro-control or control or lock out an opponent from under a Trinisphere.

Cave-In is another good SB card to bring in against Goblins and increase the storm count and Flameshot is a good MD card for the same reason. Tormod's Crypt is usually in the SB for aggro-control and combo, and you get free storm out of it to.

I'd at least use the MD P.Pillar the Germans were using before, otherwise it's just as good as conceding against combo with out it.

This is easily one of my favorite decks in the format, and I look forward to picking it up after Flash gets banned.

[Zilla]

This is a little off-topic, but I'm curious... have you actually tried to beat Hulk Flash with this deck? You're running Chrome Mox and SSG, which means you have the speed you need to support the 8 blast plan against them from the sideboard. You have a reasonably fast clock to back it up, and in a pinch you could back it with Leyline as well.

This is really more a question born of curiosity than a suggestion. Could you beat Hulk Flash if you dedicated 12 SB slots to it?

[CalebD]

Very similar to a deck I was messing with pre-PLC, but with those germans ingenuity and PLC the deck looks a LOT better. Sulfur elemental fits as a solid 2R cc crit. So is magus of the moon, glad to see you added him.

Don't be afraid to set a chalice at 0 against decks using engineered explosives, it gets rid of the best way they have to deal w/ your goblins.

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast (you'll be trying for chalice on two)
SB: 4 [IA] Pyroblast

eh? Chalice isn't bad, and SSG works against daze and w/ the REB spells well. Still don't think it'd be a good meta call at all.

Edit: took too long to post, dang you Zilla.

After some post-board goldfishes against the deck, I'd still very much rather be the Hulk player. The 12-15 hate cards don't mean much if your deck is too inconsistant to play them effectively.

Still, that's just a few random GFs, I have no idea what the actual percentages are.

[BreathWeapon]

This is a little off-topic, but I'm curious... have you actually tried to beat Hulk Flash with this deck? You're running Chrome Mox and SSG, which means you have the speed you need to support the 8 blast plan against them from the sideboard. You have a reasonably fast clock to back it up, and in a pinch you could back it with Leyline as well.

This is really more a question born of curiosity than a suggestion. Could you beat Hulk Flash if you dedicated 12 SB slots to it?

I used 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere MD with 4 Leyline of the Void and 8 Blasts SB, and I could go about 50/50 against them depending on the coin flip and their draw/mulligans. It isn't as good as B/r against them, but it is better than B/r against the random aggro that is going to be out there.

[Zilla]

I used 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Trinisphere MD with 4 Leyline of the Void and 8 Blasts SB, and I could go about 50/50 against them depending on the coin flip and their draw/mulligans. It isn't as good as B/r against them, but it is better than B/r against the random aggro that is going to be out there.
I had a feeling this would be the case, but I was curious if anyone had actually tried it. I've tested red-based decks with the 8 blast plan myself against Flash and have had mixed success: it can work if the majority of the rest of your deck is direct damage, because it allows you to back your blast plan with targeted removal for their combo pieces (assuming they're running the Jiki combo). On its own, I doubt the 8 blast plan has much merit against Flash combo running discard and countermagic as protection, because they can simply outcontrol you, and you've diluted your threatbase significantly to make room for these control elements, which inherently reduces your clock. It's basically a catch-22. I had hoped an archetype like this might be an exception, but apparently not.

[frogboy]

how is Trinisphere good against Flash? Don't they just draw another land and then kill you?

[Aggro_zombies]

how is Trinisphere good against Flash? Don't they just draw another land and then kill you?
Most Flash builds don't run very many lands, so unless they have one in hand or the top of their library, it can be a problem. It also forces them to combo off unprotected or have five mana in play, and it ups the cost of all of thir search spells / cantrips. So it's decent at slowing them down, provided they don't kill you before you can play it.

[Happy Gilmore]

I had a feeling this would be the case, but I was curious if anyone had actually tried it. I've tested red-based decks with the 8 blast plan myself against Flash and have had mixed success: it can work if the majority of the rest of your deck is direct damage, because it allows you to back your blast plan with targeted removal for their combo pieces (assuming they're running the Jiki combo). On its own, I doubt the 8 blast plan has much merit against Flash combo running discard and countermagic as protection, because they can simply outcontrol you, and you've diluted your threatbase significantly to make room for these control elements, which inherently reduces your clock. It's basically a catch-22. I had hoped an archetype like this might be an exception, but apparently not.

With the number of artifacts in the deck you could very well support Covetous Dragon. He is a 6/5 flyer for :4: :r: with very few drawbacks. Great Furnace would also up the artifact count.

-4 Slogger
-3 Rift bolt
-3 Moutain
+4 Great Furnace
+4 Dragon
+2 Kavu ?

I might also suggest this radical idea:

-4 ETW
+4 Burning Wish with (ETW in the board plus a whole lot of crazy cards)

It ups the storm count and finds you answers in a pinch.

[BreathWeapon]

It's not as bad as it seems, because Arc-Slogger and Siege Gang Commander or Warmonger and Empty the Warrens are still a three to four turn clock, and that lets you SB out your four drops and your removal spell or your five drops and your Seething Song if you want. Your clock isn't getting reduced, but your threat density certainly is. I'd rather be on the other side of the table, but you have to remember, you're preying on all of the decks that beat Hulk Flash and your still coin flipping (or probably more like 40/60 or 45/55) Hulk Flash itself.

Replacing ETW with Wish defeats the purpose of using ETW in the first place, it's an uncounterable threat that turns Seething Song into a counter target, and its increasing the number of 2cc cards in a deck that sets Chalice of the Void at 2 a lot. I considered using Burning Wish and 3 ETW, but you really, really want your SB space, and you have really good threat density as it is.

[Tao]

-4 Slogger
-4 ETW


I will not cut EMPTY THE (warrens and arc) SLOGGER from the deck. Covetous Dragon is worse than Arc Slogger, even if he had no Artifact drawback. Slogger has 4 Shocks built in, while Dragon has only Flying and a bit more power.


But Burning Wish sounds interesting. I have never thought about that.



This is really more a question born of curiosity than a suggestion. Could you beat Hulk Flash if you dedicated 12 SB slots to it?

I will try to test it. With Jitte (solid against both versions), Chalice of the Void and Magus of the Moon (makes it hard for them to play their Discard and they can't shape their hand with Brainstorm; stops Boseiju) you have some Disruption in the mainboard. Combined with Blasts and 3-Sphere it might work.

3 Pyrokinesis (needed against Aggro)
6 Blasts
3 3-Sphere
3 Winter Orb (needed against Control)

Against Flash I'd board out 3 Bolts, 2 Kavus, 2 Swords of Fire and Ice and 2 Sulfur Elemental for Blasts and Sphere. I will try it.

[BreathWeapon]

Winter Orb has to the be the worst card I've seen in the SB in this deck, for what reason would we run Winter Orb over Blood Moon or Boil or all of the other red cards that just win the game against Control? You run Winter Orb in Faerie Stompy or AfFOWnity because you don't have access to bigger and better bombs, C/Ping it into red based aggro prison is just being lazy.

[Zach Tartell]

Winter Orb has to the be the worst card I've seen in the SB in this deck, for what reason would we run Winter Orb over Blood Moon or Boil or all of the other red cards that just win the game against Control?

Some control decks don't run non-basics (such as Rabid Wombat) or run multiple basics (such as enchantress, some versions of truffle shuffle, and Bg or Trainwreck). Orb is the hottness. And it lets you use your non-basics.

[Happy Gilmore]

I wasn't suggesting cutting ETW, I think that Burning Wish would be much better as a maindeck card imo since it both adds to storm and gives you multiple options. Having the "I win" factor by fetching Anarchy from the board against White decks, Clasm and other mass removal against agro, Boiling sea against Blue decks, artifact removal, plus Demon Fire or something along those lines for an instant kill makes more sense don't you think? Running Wish effectively still gives you 4x ETW maindeck. There is no reason not to switch over.

[barron]

get rid of empty the warrens. i found it suboptimal almost all the time. Too many decks can deal with it because it fell into anti goblins SB. It was usually able to deal a little damage, but was always disapointing since without card draw you can't keep exploding.

[Maveric78f]

My reflexion is based on pre-FS concerns

As said before, This deck has to prove its regularity against Flash in order to be viable. To do so, it needs a lot of hate in SB. The best plan would be to place an early CotV@2 and then be able to protect it thanks to REBs. But it looks very random. You need more tempo. To solve it, Trinisphere+Boil is descent but the LeylineotV remains the best option.

SB proposal :
4*Trinisphere
4*Boil
4*LeylineotV

You mull until getting a first turn Trinisphere or a Leyline in opening hand.

I even wonder if CotV should not be sided out in this matchup (post-FS, I would recommend to keep it in order to play it @0). I would keep maybe 2 of them, but that's not even sure.
-2 SoFI
-2 CotV
-3 Rift Bolt
-2 Kavu
-3 Magus on the Moon (or its replacement in pre-FS build)

If your opponent plays the karmic kiki combo (which is a better deck), side out the 3*jitte and keep all the Magus in.

Sudden shock should be taken into consideration instead of Rift Bolt, as a karmic kiki killer. Moreover it's very good against Psychatog, which is one of the rare decks having a positive MU against Flash and as it should be a deck to beat.

I would not recommend you to play Burning Wish for a lot of reasons :
- it gets countered although EtW does not
- it spoils completely your SB although you really need it
- it's too slow in the flash metagame

I confirm that orb is worse than the otherr mana denial propositions. Ok it's faster than Boil, but why would you need to play it fast ? If you want to piss of loam decks just play ruination or xxxMoon. If you want to piss off blue based control decks and flash, play boil. As I think that LftL decks are in great decline : firstly Leyline, secondly extirpate, thirdly flash which is too fast for LftL and fourthly flash that involves a lot of SB (and even MD) with Leyline*4.

According to me, the metagame @ Columbus will be highly blue based (to play and to counter Flahs decks) and Boil is a house in such a metagame.

[Adan]

What the Fuck?

"Legacy" =/= "Hate Hulk Flash"

Additionally, Hulk Flash ist NOT unbeatable.

Anyways, this deck is really good. Think of it as a red Faerie Stompy, with Seething Song instead of Clouds, Arc Slogger instead of Sea Drake and Sulfur Elemental instead of Trinket mage.

Sulfur Elemental has also the good advantage of just chumping a Jotun Grunt when you don't have Flametounge Kavu.

Ah, and when Future Sight becomes legal, Magus of the Moon will raise this Decks powerlevel much higher then (1st turn Blood Moon which can smash your face with a SoFaI in Turn 2? Insane!)

[Maveric78f]

It has been a time when you could not make a deck without maindecking 8 answers to turn-1 lackey.

Time has changed, and when you build a deck you have to take into consideration your flash MU. If I thought that the Flash deck was unbeatable, I would never propose a SB against it as it would be useless.

The deck looks good to me too even if it's clearly weak against Gob&Flash MD.

[bigbear102]

Hey, just got some interesting results against Flash. The deck I played against wasn't optimal, but it used the Kiki/Guide win. I had one Sulfur Elemental out, and then when he brought guide into play I SS/Flashed another Elemental in, and he was left with a lone Kiki-Jiki. It's not unbeatable, but it is a maindeck way to beat the deck. He couldn't recover in the amount of time needed cuz I was swinging for 6.

I also added Goblin Skycutter. He also hits the Guide, although Bodyguard can protect from the Skycutter, it makes them think a bit more.

I like the 8 blast plan for the board if bringing anything like this to Columbus. I really haven't seen a need for ETW yet, but haven't played all that much either.

[BreathWeapon]

Some control decks don't run non-basics (such as Rabid Wombat) or run multiple basics (such as enchantress, some versions of truffle shuffle, and Bg or Trainwreck). Orb is the hottness. And it lets you use your non-basics.

Granted, but you really shouldn't be playing this deck if you expect to play against board control, and a Moon is a lot more devastating against control (the blue kind) than an Orb. Your basically designed to walk into a Threshold, TES and Goblins metagame and win, not deal with the random board control that loses to the combo that should be pushing it out of the meta.

[CalebD]

or Warmonger and Empty the Warrens are still a three to four turn clock, really good threat density as it is.

Warmonger has horrible synergy with EtW, while Kavu clears werebears/mages out of the way. I don't see why you'd ever want to replace Kavu in this deck, as 1.5 has lots of creatures.

[BreathWeapon]

Warmonger has horrible synergy with EtW, while Kavu clears werebears/mages out of the way. I don't see why you'd ever want to replace Kavu in this deck, as 1.5 has lots of creatures.

I use Warmonger along side Siege Gang Commander and ETW all of the time, and believe me, Warmonger is a recurring Wrath of God against Goblins. You'll get to clear the opponent's board and you'll get a four turn clock to, and then the opponent has to clear the Warmonger to get back into the game. As long as you aren't over extending with your threats, your anti-synergy is irrelevant, and you have 4 Chrome Mox and either 4 MD Pyrokinesis and/or 4 SB Cave-In to RFG the Warmonger or the ETW to.

I'd cut Siege Gang Commander for Covetous Dragon and Empty the Warrens for Flametongue Kavu before I ever cut Warmonger, because Warmonger is your entire MD game against Goblins.

On a side note, Sudden Shock is AMAZING against Flash, and you'll definitely want to either MD it or SB it in your GP meta.

[Arrowni]

You mean the kiki version I guess.

[BreathWeapon]

You mean the kiki version I guess.

And the Cephalid Illusionist version, and I doubt that people are going to use the Disciple of the Vault version considering it requires at least twice the number of dead cards as the other versions and that's the kiss of death in your mirror match.

Gemstone Caverns is also starting to grow on me in here, another set of Chrome Moxes just makes ramping to three so consistent.

[CynicalSquirrel]

This is going to sound pretty janky, but have you thought about Grinning Ignus at all? It can easily come down turn one or two, then accel into a Slogger next turn, plus it obviously has great synergy with Empty the Warrens.

I like the looks of the deck, I might have to try it out.

[Barook]

With Flash gone, we can go back to normal business. I still think it's an interesting deck with potential.

I looked up beefy 3cc creatures and found this one:

Flailing Ogre (http://magiccards.info/scans/en/mm/188.jpg)

I dunno where it can be fit in, but it looks like a decent beatstick. You have already a mana advantage and can use open mana for additional damage. Killing it via its own ability is also not that easy due to its 3 toughness.

Thoughts?

[Illissius]

They can attempt to kill it at the end of your turn and again after they untap, so unless you can double their mana, it's dying.

[Jak]

Has anybody been playing this deck? I think I might try and pick this up because is looks very interesting. So here is the list I would make.

Lands-18
6 Mountain
4 Great Furnace
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors

Accel-12
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

Beatz-20
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Covetous Dragon
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Flametongue Kavu

Spells-13
4 Fireblast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sword of Fire and Ice

I need to test the list out before I know what cards to cut, but I love Fireblast as the finisher when the opponent stabalizes with creatures or clears the board. I like it better than Bolt anyways.

Any thoughts for a good board. Here are the definite cards.

4 Trinisphere
3-4 Pyrokinesis
3-4 Anarchy

What would be another good card to add? And any ideas what to cut from the MD?

[outsideangel]

6 Mountains is not nearly enough to play any number of Fireblast, much less a full playset.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Yes drop 2 Fireblasts and add 2 Cave-in!

[Jak]

Yeah probably. But I really only cast one. Plus you have Magus so that should be factored into the Mountain count. I will probably cut it down to 3 though. And I will cut a Covetous Dragon to get it down to 61.

[Barook]

I'm going to test this deck, too.

But I'm going with the original version of the deck.

I have to ask: Is Covetous Dragon really worth it? I did some goldfishing so far with old version of the deck to get a feel for it and while the deck can hit 5 mana quite often early in the game, it's not always the case. What was your reason to cut Sulfur Elemental? Sure, it's not that overwhelming, but it's really a decent card for its mana cost. Relying only on accel to play a 5-mana threat as your main game plan looks kinda bad.

Oh, and cut down the FTK count to 2 (or 3 if your meta is creature-heavy) or it's likely that you end up with dead cards in your hand.

[Jak]

FtK is too good to cut. It helps out in too many MUs to go back down to 2. I really never tested the Elemental because I really do not have a ton of white creature decks running around. I could see putting them back in though. I just wanted a big beater. I will probably go back to the first version, but Fireblast for Rift Bolt. I love the card. So I will probably just use 3 Blasts instead of Bolts and up the FtK count to 3 or 4.

[Happy Gilmore]

FtK is too good to cut. It helps out in too many MUs to go back down to 2. I really never tested the Elemental because I really do not have a ton of white creature decks running around. I could see putting them back in though. I just wanted a big beater. I will probably go back to the first version, but Fireblast for Rift Bolt. I love the card. So I will probably just use 3 Blasts instead of Bolts and up the FtK count to 3 or 4.

I cut FTK for 2x Tahngarth, and yes, I am dead serious. He is a house against Goblins and he trades with Tarmogoyf. Sulfur Elemental trades with a Jhotun Grunt and is an uncounterable threat against control. Thats a huge boon.

[Jak]

Okay I was just looking through my cards and I saw this. I don't know if it would be any good, but I think it would be hella fun and might have potential. Skirk Fire Marshall. I mean would it be that bad as a 2-of? EtW for 6 turn one. Attack turn 2 for 6. Play SFM turn 3, tap down. Then Fireblast. Might be stupid, but just throwing out an idea.

[kirdape3]

I don't like the equipment at all. There's no creature that scares a Covetous Dragon in combat, a Tarmogoyf doesn't really do much against Arc-Slogger (trades no matter what? Sure.), and Empty the Warrens is going to be awfully good in a great many cases. Instead of the Jittes and Swords, which are overkill, you might want some more disruption in the form of Trinisphere and/or Sphere of Resistance to back up your Chalices of the Void. Fireblast is godawful with only six mountains; with your mana acceleration you can probably play Molten Disaster, Rolling Earthquake, or Demonfire.

Speaking of your mana acceleration, how would you feel about replacing Simian Spirit Guide with a permanent source such as Fire Diamond, a red Talisman, or even something like Prismatic Lens and/or Coalition Relic? A deck like this wants to hit all of it's accelerants and keep them, not necessarily spend multiple cards only to have it's threat countered or dealt with.

For alternate disruption, good old land destruction actually works wonders when under a Trinisphere. Wasteland's obvious, but Molten Rain and Avalanche Riders are also actually pretty good and they give you something to do if you don't draw your accelerants properly.

I'd be looking at something like this:

4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void

4 Covetous Dragon
4 Arc-Slogger
4 Avalanche Riders
3 Flametongue Kavu

4 Molten Rain
3 (X-spell)

4 (2-mana acclerant that taps for red)
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
6 Mountain

I'm sure that the numbers are wonky and you'll want to screw around with them, but at least there won't be Fireblasts in a list with 6 Mountains c_C

[Nihil Credo]

I think there are too many paths being pursued in this thread. While everything can be summed up as "Accelerated Red", the way this mana acceleration is being used is so radically different that it makes little sense to discuss single cards before an overall gameplan has been agreed upon.

I have four separate Accelerated Red decks in my Legacy folder. The only cards they share are:

6+ Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chalice of the Void

Once you look past those, there are a fuckton of options. Scroll this thread and you'll see many ideas listed. IMO, they can be separated into the following major paths:

1 - Taxing: Trinisphere, Tangle Wire
2 - Land destruction: Wasteland, Avalanche Riders, Molten Rain
3 - Empty the Warrens abuse: EtW, Seething Song, Rift Bolt
4 - Ritualled Fatties: Seething Song, Arc-Slogger
5 - Equipment: Jitte, Sophie, 2/2 dorks that get enabled by them
6 - Burn: Fireblast, Demonfire
7 - Board control: FTK, Earthquake and its offspring (Warmonger?)

Of these, the original Empty the Slogger list maindecked 3, 4, and 5. My suggestion is that this thread should remain focused on this combination, and a [Brainstorming] thread be opened to explore the other options - except for those which already have their own, like Wildfire Stax (1,2,7) and Dragon Stompy (4,5,7).

[Happy Gilmore]

I think there are too many paths being pursued in this thread. While everything can be summed up as "Accelerated Red", the way this mana acceleration is being used is so radically different that it makes little sense to discuss single cards before an overall gameplan has been agreed upon.

I have four separate Accelerated Red decks in my Legacy folder. The only cards they share are:

6+ Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chalice of the Void

Once you look past those, there are a fuckton of options. Scroll this thread and you'll see many ideas listed. IMO, they can be separated into the following major paths:

1 - Taxing: Trinisphere, Tangle Wire
2 - Land destruction: Wasteland, Avalanche Riders, Molten Rain
3 - Empty the Warrens abuse: EtW, Seething Song, Rift Bolt
4 - Ritualled Fatties: Seething Song, Arc-Slogger
5 - Equipment: Jitte, Sophie, 2/2 dorks that get enabled by them
6 - Burn: Fireblast, Demonfire
7 - Board control: FTK, Earthquake and its offspring (Warmonger?)

Of these, the original Empty the Slogger list maindecked 3, 4, and 5. My suggestion is that this thread should remain focused on this combination, and a [Brainstorming] thread be opened to explore the other options - except for those which already have their own, like Wildfire Stax (1,2,7) and Dragon Stompy (4,5,7).

That is an extremely fascinating way to build a deck. One thing both variants have is a lack of burn. This I agree with, board control is a better strategy. In addition I think you might want to add #8, Burning Wish.

[BreathWeapon]

Siege Gang Commander and Empty the Warrens should be backed by Trinisphere and Tangle Wire to really take advantage of the number of permanents this deck can generate. With Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, I think Thoughts of Ruin or Devastating Dreams also become serious options.

Karplusan Minotaur and Stalking Yeti both look like solid 4 drops, and Dwarven Blastminer is an interesting 2 and 3 drop that gets to abuse Trinisphere.

I'm sure we all agree Gathan Raiders is just stupid good? It's too bad it has such anti-synergy with Razormane Masticore and Masticore tho'.

[Happy Gilmore]

Siege Gang Commander and Empty the Warrens should be backed by Trinisphere and Tangle Wire to really take advantage of the number of permanents this deck can generate. With Trinisphere and Tangle Wire, I think Thoughts of Ruin or Devastating Dreams also become serious options.

Karplusan Minotaur and Stalking Yeti both look like solid 4 drops, and Dwarven Blastminer is an interesting 2 and 3 drop that gets to abuse Trinisphere.

I'm sure we all agree Gathan Raiders is just stupid good? It's too bad it has such anti-synergy with Razormane Masticore and Masticore tho'.

Don't you realise how bad the synergy is between ETW/SGC and Devastating Dreams?

[BreathWeapon]

Don't you realise how bad the synergy is between ETW/SGC and Devastating Dreams?

Duh? There's a reason I included Thoughts of Ruin and separated the sentences.

[Jak]

So is Covetous good for this deck? IMO I think he is great providing a solid clock. Now after testing I have realized that 6 mountains is not enough to support Fireblast, but I would like to know, how many artifacts would be enough to support the Dragon? Would Sulfur Elemental be better? I have realized that he is pretty good, but does he beat out a 6/5 finisher?

So I guess I will name the agreed spots for the deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitor
10 More Lands (artifact or basic)

4 Chrome Mox
4 SSG
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice

4 EtW
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon

So that is 46 cards of the deck. So that leaves 14 slots to add stuff. HEre are the options I have seen.

Jitte
SoFI

Fireblast
Rift Bolt
Demonfire

Molten Rain
Trinisphere
Tangle Wire

Covetous Dragon
Sulfur Elemental
FtK
Tahngarth
Avalanche Riders
Warmonger

So the question is, which other 14 cards should the slots go to?

[Jak]

Oh and this may sound stupid but, I purchased the cards I needed for the deck today and currently can not find any mountains that look good in it. :frown: Frowns. Any thoughts to what would be a good Mountain picture. God I hate the new borders. I just hate when I have a deck that doesn't flow and look nice. Weird, but it is what I like. Any ideas?

[Happy Gilmore]

Oh and this may sound stupid but, I purchased the cards I needed for the deck today and currently can not find any mountains that look good in it. :frown: Frowns. Any thoughts to what would be a good Mountain picture. God I hate the new borders. I just hate when I have a deck that doesn't flow and look nice. Weird, but it is what I like. Any ideas?

Urza's Saga mountains, you will know the best picture when you see it.

[MattH]

Urza's Saga mountains, you will know the best picture when you see it.

Beta mountain! I have a pile of gorgeous ones...

[Jak]

Can I get 10 of those for free?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

This is where it's at. (http://magiccards.info/alp04/en/4.html)

What does this deck have against all of those goblin tokens that combo decks have been spewing out? The only combo resistance I can see is chalice. It looks like it could even benefit from maindeck Earthquakes or Pyroclasms. It's disynergious with you're own warrens, but is avoiding a disynergy worth a bad combo match-up?

[BreathWeapon]

This is where it's at. (http://magiccards.info/alp04/en/4.html)

What does this deck have against all of those goblin tokens that combo decks have been spewing out? The only combo resistance I can see is chalice. It looks like it could even benefit from maindeck Earthquakes or Pyroclasms. It's disynergious with you're own warrens, but is avoiding a disynergy worth a bad combo match-up?

Nothing wrong with Earthquake or Warmonger etc., this deck casts its disruption, cleans up the threats that got thru' and then casts its threats unless its going balls to the walls with Seething Song into a five drop. At heart, the deck is a mono-R board control deck that can switch gears if it needs to.

[Tao]

So is Covetous good for this deck? IMO I think he is great providing a solid clock. Now after testing I have realized that 6 mountains is not enough to support Fireblast, but I would like to know, how many artifacts would be enough to support the Dragon? Would Sulfur Elemental be better? I have realized that he is pretty good, but does he beat out a 6/5 finisher?

So I guess I will name the agreed spots for the deck.

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitor
10 More Lands (artifact or basic)

4 Chrome Mox
4 SSG
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice

4 EtW
4 Arc Slogger
4 Magus of the Moon

So that is 46 cards of the deck. So that leaves 14 slots to add stuff. HEre are the options I have seen.
...
So the question is, which other 14 cards should the slots go to?

I agree with that (even though I play only 3 Slogger). I think some Equipment is also very important because it makes smaller Empty the Warrens and the 2/2 creatures scary for your opponent who could otherwise just block and shoot them to death. I am currently running 3 Jitte / 2 Sword. I also still play the Sulfur Elementals because of their strength against control and because of their speed. Another new and good option for the CC3 Slot is Gathan Raiders, which would have synergy with Rakdos Pit Dragon. Currently I am not sure how an optimal build would look like.

[Tacosnape]

I 'really' didn't want to acknowledge this thread existed, but, meh.

Pit Dragon? Gathan Raiders? I like how this thread essentially took a deck I co-invented (technically invented, but Phantom deserves more credit for developing it), Dragon Stompy, and is now in the process of evolving it to be that deck.:P

Rolling Earthquake is the card you're looking for to deal with Empty the Warrens, and I'm iffy about running ETW itself since it's rare if ever you can cast it beyond 4-6. 6 is still pretty good though, so it's runnable.

It wouldn't hurt you to have 1-2 Razormane Masticores in place of 1-2 Arc Sloggers. Slogger and Razormane tap into the same resources to do their evil bidding. Slogger's slightly stronger, while Razormane is slightly more synergistic with the rest of the deck. I run 3 Sloggers and 2 Razormanes.

Gathan Raiders is incredible, Pit Dragon is incredible, and Sulfur Elemental isn't bad. Look into Rolling Earthquake and Umezawa's Jitte, too.

[Jak]

Yeah they are basically the same deck with some different creatures. I'll agree with you Taco.

What do you guys feel on the creature base? Do we need burn like Rift Bolt, Demonfire, or Fireblast for finishing the opponent off? Or would we rather run more creatures. I can not decide. There are situations where I win 3rd turn because of Fireblast. But I feel sometimes it sucks and would rather run Covetous Dragon. Big pimpin right der. Like I want to run a creature base like this.

4 Magus of the Moon
4 Arc Slogger
3 FtK
3 Covetous Dragon
4 Sulfur Elemental
4 EtW

Along with

4 Chalice
3 Jitte
2 SoFI

4 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 SSG

and the 18 lands.

Some thing like that.

[MattH]

Coal Stoker looks very interesting.

[Jak]

OMG!!! I really like that. Perfect hand would be tomb, mox, song, stoker, EtW. First turn 3/3 and 8 1/1s would be amazing. My problem is what to cut. I am thinking Sulfur Elemental, just because Covetous Dragon has done so much more.

[Silverdragon]

Covetous Dragon is cool but I don't think this deck needs him. Actually the last thing this deck needs is another 5cc finisher and even if it did there are so much possibilities like Razormane Masticore, Rakdos Pitdragon which is even better because it costs 4 and Gathan Raiders which are even better because they cost 3. Sulfur Elemental is good because it doesn't put pressure on the already shaky manabase and helps certain matchups where Covetous would just be another dumb fatty. Flash and Split Second aren't the best abilities in the world however having another uncounterable threat that doesn't lose to Shattering Spree or Meltdown is nice.
The main reason I see to play this over Dragonstompy is because you get Empty the Warrens and Sulfur Elemental (and Magus of the Moon) which are absolute bombs against most blue-based decks while keeping the Chalice against Combo and the Sloggers and Jittes against Goblins. The only downside is that you can't run Pyroclasm (and can even get hurt by it sometimes) and are slightly slower due to not having Rakdos Pitdragon.
So it comes down to a metagaming consideration. How many Pyroclasms and similar sweepers are you likely to see, how many combodecks, how many Fish?
These decks (Empty the Slogger and Dragonstompy) are no combodecks but aggrodecks with the tools to beat any archetype when tuned accordingly but you have to keep in mind that they have to have a manacurve. Also don't fall for the danger of cool plays, focusing on cool but unlikely scenarios to happen but rather concentrate on making your deck more consistant.
just my 2 cents

[Hummingbird TG]

For good Mountains, Guru would never hurt.

[Tacosnape]

@Silverdragon:
Modern Dragon Stompy lists run both Sulfur Elemental and Gathan Raiders, and some run Magus of the Moon in sideboard (Though I prefer Epochrasite to Magus of the Moon.) It just skips Empty the Warrens, which is rarely enough to kill in this deck and has to face all the hate now dedicated to Empty the Warrens.

@Sacul:
You're absolutely right. Rolling Earthquake and/or Pyroclasm are essential to the deck, and the solution to dyssynergy with Empty the Warrens is to not run Empty the Warrens. The original concept of Dragon Stompy was to run 16 excellent disruptive 2-drops (4 Chalice, 4 Pillar, 4 Jitte, 4 Pyroclasm) and a horde of game-winning big guys (Pit Dragon, Razormane Masticore, Bloodrock Cyclops, Flametongue Kavu), as well as the best accelerators (Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors, and Seething Song) Further development of the deck brought in Arc-Slogger, Rolling Earthquake replaced Pyroclasm, Sulfur Elemental replaced Bloodrock Cyclops, and Gathan Raiders was squeezed in.

At some point in here, somebody fell prey to the "Danger of cool things" and added Simian Spirit Guide and Empty the Warrens, and through a classic case of reverse evolution, there you have Empty the Slogger.

For what it's worth, Dragon Stompy has a solid match against nearly every combo and nearly every aggro deck in the format, at the expense of losing to almost every control deck in the format. Dragon Stompy beats Empty the Slogger in the grudge match and doesn't have a single matchup that's worse except for the rare few where Magus of the Moon auto-wins.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

As Tacosnape said, this deck just seems like dragon stompy except with worse matchups over all. Simian Spirit Guide is bad in a deck like this, card disadvantage for a single :r: is just bad.
At some point in here, somebody fell prey to the "Danger of cool things" and added Simian Spirit Guide and Empty the Warrens, and through a classic case of reverse evolution, there you have Empty the Slogger.This (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=131426&postcount=117) post is the first to introduce "Empty the Slogger," after that, the thread is just you defending the deck from everyone.
Further development of the deck brought in Arc-Slogger, Rolling Earthquake replaced Pyroclasm, Sulfur Elemental replaced Bloodrock Cyclops, and Gathan Raiders was squeezed in.
There are modern versions of dragon stompy?

[Tacosnape]

There are modern versions of dragon stompy?

Yep. Astonishing, isn't it?

I think the most up to date list is something along the lines of this (Although it's subject to change if we figure out an answer to Tarmogoyf):

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Pyroclasm

4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore

SB: (Drop 1 of the following based on metagame/preference)
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Epochrasite
4 Pithing Needle

[Jak]

I want to build both decks and test them. Almost there. But Taco what do you recomend as a replacement card for Rolling Earthquake? It is a little out of my budget.

[Tacosnape]

Um. Hmm.

The ever-obvious Earthquake springs to mind. It's just going to suck against random decks like Faerie Stompy or Blue Skies whereas Rolling Earthquake can make those very matches favorable.

[Tao]

I originally posted the ETS list in th DS thread because they are clearly similar. But from the responses I got I saw that it was impossible to discuss the deck in that thread.

Empty the Warrens is the most important threat in this deck and it was the card that got most hated by the people in the DS thread. Furthermore this deck plays many x/2 guys so it does not want to play Earthquakee effects.

So I decided to make a new thread in which a deck with 4 ETW, 4 Magus of the Moon and 0 Masticores can be discussed. If your lists don't play ETW, they do not belong into this thread and rather into the DS thread:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4361&page=7


Empty the Warrens: However, I see no reason to play without ETW. The card is just insane strong. When you say that you have to face all the ETW hate you have to ask yourself why people play that hate. Easy answer: because they lose to a big ETW. Well, you can't produce 12 token, but you CAN produce 6 tokens and equip one of them (which is a strong plan) or back them up with additional creatures or with Chalice / Magus Moon disruption.

Rakdos Pit Dragon: I agree that he is a strong card and I have no problem when people play him.
But Hellbent obviously fits not together with ETW because one card makes you want to play wih an empty hand and the other makes you want to keep back additional Mox and Songs. An advantage of ETW compared to Dragon is that ETW rewards you for not overextending while Dragon rewards for playing with no backup.
So all in all I dont play him because the >3 mana slot is quite full with ETW, Slogger and Kavu and because I don't want to be hellbent when I rip a potentially game breaking ETW from the top of my library.

Magus of the Moon: He IS a maindeck 4-of. He is mediocre against Goblins (not dead), but he he is insane strong against the clear majority of the rest of the field (Landstill, Thresh, Fish, Loam). He allows first turn kills and usually is a real pain for your opponents.

[Barook]

Yep. Astonishing, isn't it?

I think the most up to date list is something along the lines of this (Although it's subject to change if we figure out an answer to Tarmogoyf):

10 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Rolling Earthquake
4 Pyroclasm

4 Sulfur Elemental
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
3 Gathan Raiders
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Arc-Slogger
2 Razormane Masticore


My Anti-synergy-senses are tingling! How does that combination of cards work for you?

And i can just agree with Tao in all points.

[Meekrab]

My Anti-synergy-senses are tingling! How does that combination of cards work for you?

And i can just agree with Tao in all points.
My guess is that if you're casting any of your board sweepers, your little guys have already swung in, or are just plain useless in the face of 238497 goblins or a 4/5 goyf, or have a Jitte on them.

[Jak]

Yeah, the sweepers help the deck so your fatties can swing through. Who cares if it knocks out your FtKs or Elements, because if they die, they already did their job by killing creatures or becoming a surprise blocker and you can swing in with your Dragons and sloggers.