[Discussion] So What about June 1, then?

[chmoddity]

Wizards hinted that things were going to be changing in Legacy after this GP. Clearly it is now a topic in the forefront. So, what are you hoping to see done? Let's hope that Wizards has been looking more closely at the format and what some of its veterans have to say than they were recently concerning Flash. Try to refrain from making this another "this should be unbanned" topic. I just want to know what cards should be in the crosshairs and under what conditions.

The way I see it, there are a few possibilities:
1. Flash scrubs out - you are all idiots (snicker)
2. Flash does reasonably well, but is hated out effectively
3. Flash dominates

If 1 is true, what will be the likely changes to the B+R? Same as some have been clamoring for? Land Tax, Mind Over Matter, etc. in - maybe Vial out?

If 2 is true, I friggin' quit Legacy because I hate Vintage. But what will happen to the B+R? I suppose you can count out Vampiric Tutor for starters.

If 3 is true, OK, Flash out. Maybe Hulk as well. But what comes in? I mean, we will be getting an entirely new format - again?

[UrDraco]

The outcome of each of your scenarios:

1) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.

2) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.

3) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think it is extremely important that we use this opportunity to convince the DCI to re-asses their banned list. Many cards on it are simply not that powerful (Replenish, Land Tax, Mind over Matter) and should be unrestricted. But they never will be without imput because they have no reason to doubt their own conclusions that these cards are above the powerlevel of the format.

Is there a place on the internet where the DCI can hear oppinions about the B&R lists or do they simply come up with it themselves?

[chmoddity]

@HG, that's a really good point. I mean, I was hoping that they would do just that, and I suppose that is the point of the thread in the first place. But I will bet there is nothing better than forums.

[Cabal_chan]

1) Flash scrubs out: Well, IMO, it would be better to overreact and find it was ok after all, than to think it's ok and then be bit over the head with it. WotC will not unban anything because they are speaking ex cathedra and cannot be wrong, even though Flash is easily more powerful then several of the cards on the banned list.

2) See Bender's Theme Park quote from Futurama.

3) See Bender's Theme Park quote from Futurama.

[Eldariel]

I wish to point out that they specifically stated that they'll reassess the B&R list for Eternal formats come June 1st (they haven't had the resources to do so previously, or so they told), so Flash getting the axe isn't likely the only result. I think you folk are giving them too little credit; they did separate the banned and restricted lists for Vintage and Legacy after all and they're holding GPs too. Their policies are unfortunate, but it's true that this course of action is the one that follows the policies. They simply haven't given themselves means to act otherwise. Memory Jar was an exception that occured because all formats sucked at the moment. This isn't such a case, so we'll have to wait until June 1st, but rest assured that the banning will happen, and maybe even some other changes. Have faith.

[Solpugid]

Why does flash have to get banned to fix this problem? It seems to me that protean hulk is the real problem here. Flashing in gamekeepers and rectors just doesn't seem that bad. But, if I'm wrong, an innocent card would be banned and our format would remain wrecked.

[Cabal_chan]

It is arguable that Flash is stronger than many of the cards currently on the Banned list. The only reason Hulk is broken is because of it's interaction with Flash. Previous to the un-errata, Hulk wasn't that good. So you have several options now.

Option 1: Ban neither
This is clearly unacceptable for many obvious reasons which I will not go into.

Option 2: Ban Flash only
This would kill Hulk Flash. Yes, there are other cards that can be used to get Hulk into play and send it to the grave, but none of them are as strong as Flash.

Option 3: Ban Hulk only.
This would also kill Hulk Flash. However, Flash would then be used in other decks that need to get a creature into play and then kill it. This banning would be bad for two reasons.

Reason A: Design Limitations.
WotC is now forced to design all come into play effects and goes to graveyard effects with Flash in mind.

Reason B: Legacy gets shafted.
WotC designs as normal, and Legacy receives cards that gives Flash new targets to abuse.

Option 4: Ban both.
Given WotC's handling of Affinity in old Standard, this may be the route they take. While this is overkill, it is also the safest route.

[Goblin Snowman]

Why does flash have to get banned to fix this problem? It seems to me that protean hulk is the real problem here. Flashing in gamekeepers and rectors just doesn't seem that bad. But, if I'm wrong, an innocent card would be banned and our format would remain wrecked.

Flashing in Gamekeeper at the end of the 1st or 2nd turn is a fairly easy to assemble win condition. The bigger problem is having Flash in existence would either put massive design constraints on the DCI or have the formant wrecked again.

[Happy Gilmore]

If pervious actions of the DCI are any tell tale both will get the axe. Dragon + Bazaar for example; they may be conservative when deciding to ban something, but rarely take chances once they've committed.

Standard:
All 6 artifact lands, Ravager, Vial, Disciple. :eek:

[Eldariel]

Flash created the problem, so removing Flash removes the problem. It's not like they'd ever print a card like Flash again anyways as its present functionality is simply a result of poor wording rather than intent. Nobody was winning anything with Protean Hulk before Flash, it's not likely that anyone will be winning anything with it afterwards, and even if they will, that won't be as slick and smooth a package as it is presently. It'd either take more cards to pull off (massive slowdown and inconsistency), cost more mana (Solidarity/Aluren>>>it) or other issues. The short version of it, they might very well 'break' flash again with leaves play-abilities (or some cards that enable the present leaves play abilities to be too broken at 1U, if they aren't already), while there's no danger of them ever breaking Protean Hulk again as they've already shied away from such cards since Urza's or so, and the kind of effects that make Hulk broken are merely typos. So, there's no other rational course of action than to ban Flash. They banned Bazaar because it was a money-card and totally broken, they banned Dragon because they feared the Dragon/Animate combo, not because of Dragon the Deck. A poor analogy.

[Meeee]

Flashing in Gamekeeper at the end of the 1st or 2nd turn is a fairly easy to assemble win condition. The bigger problem is having Flash in existence would either put massive design constraints on the DCI or have the formant wrecked again.

Yes Flash would impose design constraints on Wizards but lets be realistic there are currently a total of 3 creatures that have game breaking or close to game breaking capabilities; Protean Hulk, Academy Rector, Gamekeeper. Of those 3 only hulk is truly degenerate with flash both rector and gamekeeper are good(maybe gamekeeper more so) but it's not the surefire win that Hulk is assuming you put it into the Salvagers shell you would have to hit a therapy every time gamekeeper hits another gamekeeper to actually find a salvager then you have to hit a Lion's eye(not hard I'll give you that) then you have to have 2 mana to actually start the infinite mana, you also need to have milled a spellbomb or whatever is used. Yes it could be good but it's not as synergistic with pacts as the hulk is so it doesn't gain as much from FS since theirs a chance you'll fail to mill the right cards and you can’t go off on upkeep because you need to cast artifacts. Rector on the other hand is relatively tame in Legacy by itself there is no bargain and the best you can get is maybe Null Profusion (maybe there’s something I missed feel free to give a better option).

Let Flash stay the format needs some innovation. just ban the Hulk.

[Happy Gilmore]

A poor analogy.

I disagree; Dragon without Bazaar would have been horrible.

Buried Alive + Animate Dead + Dragon

Is quite similar in power level to:

Cabal Therapy + Show and Tell + Hulk


And if anything the Hulk three card (sans Flash) combo is better, costing only 4 mana and disrupting your opponent in the process. And yet....it has been legal since the printing of Hulk and no one has played it. Banning Dragon, Replenish, and Land Tax were over reactions to the problem. At the time only Replenish was being used in a deck (as a 2 of in Enchantress). I see a pattern in the DCI's actions that suggest the banning of both. However it has been a while since the last major adjustment to the B&R list, so their policies may have changed.

[Tacosnape]

Why exactly are people making a case that Protean Hulk is the overpowered card when no Hulk-based deck had ever even made a tournament showing in the vast expanse of time available for it to do so prior to the errata on Flash? Protean Hulk was a $.50 scrub rare. It will return to being so when Flash is banned.

[Slay]

I disagree; Dragon without Bazaar would have been horrible.

Buried Alive + Animate Dead + Dragon

Is quite similar in power level to:

Cabal Therapy + Show and Tell + Hulk


And if anything the Hulk three card (sans Flash) combo is better, costing only 4 mana and disrupting your opponent in the process. And yet....it has been legal since the printing of Hulk and no one has played it. Banning Dragon, Replenish, and Land Tax were over reactions to the problem. At the time only Replenish was being used in a deck (as a 2 of in Enchantress). I see a pattern in the DCI's actions that suggest the banning of both. However it has been a while since the last major adjustment to the B&R list, so their policies may have changed.

No, because Dragon doesn't have to be inyour hand to play Buried Alive. Dragon's a two card combo, one card being a graveyard enabler and the other being AD/Necromancy. Hulk just isn't a very good card.
-Slay

[Solpugid]

Why exactly are people making a case that Protean Hulk is the overpowered card when no Hulk-based deck had ever even made a tournament showing in the vast expanse of time available for it to do so prior to the errata on Flash? Protean Hulk was a $.50 scrub rare. It will return to being so when Flash is banned.

I personally am advocating hulk being banned (at least currently) instead of flash not because hulk is the culprit in the combo. Rather, I think it's (again, currently) good to have a flash combo deck in Legacy, since combining it with gamekeeper and rector is not nearly as degenerate as with hulk, but still competitive.

The way to break up the combo while still leaving new, interesting decks in the format after the erratum would be to ban hulk and not flash. However, I can certainly understand the argument that a new creature to abuse with flash will inevitably come along and warrant the banning of flash all over again.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

No, because Dragon doesn't have to be inyour hand to play Buried Alive. Dragon's a two card combo, one card being a graveyard enabler and the other being AD/Necromancy. Hulk just isn't a very good card.
-Slay

People are forgetting this isn't 2005.

Dragon is a 3 card combo.

Dragon + Animate Dead + Something to use all that infinite mana on, to you know, actually win.

It's a 2 card combo if all you want is a draw.

Bazaar made Dragon effectively a 1-2 card combo, depending on your perspective.

This is why Entomb-Dragon wasn't even that hot. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't format breaking.



Also, if it gets snuffed you lose all your lands. So another thing to consider when comparing apples to grapples.

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure I could make a crazy Flash deck if they only banned Hulk.

[Eldariel]

I'm not claiming, the idea of banning the Dragon was necessarily correct, but I can easily follow the train of thought behind it; Dragon is the card that actually makes the combo possible, there're billions of methods of putting cards to graveyard and multiples (well, two to be exact, but that's more than there're Dragons or Flashes) to create a reanimation loop, but only one that actually makes the deck operate, so the obvious card to hit is that one. I don't think Bazaar's banning was even linked to Dragon, or that they gave Dragon's powerlevel a second thought. I think Bazaar was simply banned to remove the 'three unrestricted' (Workship, Drain and Bazaar) from the format, while Dragon was removed to kill the actual combo. There's no such case here, so the likely scenario is Flash getting the axe. And I'd prefer it that way instead of getting every future creature with a good leaves play-ability axed.

[Di]

Dragon is a 3 card combo.

Dragon + Animate Dead + Something to use all that infinite mana on, to you know, actually win.

Assuming we go with the aforementioned combo with Buried Alive, it is still only a 2 card combo (Buried Alive + Animate) because you get something such as Ambassador Laquatus or Sliver Queen to channel the infinate mana.

Not that it's really important of anything, but just sayin.

[kirdape3]

I personally wouldn't want to see some idiot Flash in Academy Rector and combo off that way. Flash as is is pretty degenerate; you get to trigger the CIP and leaves-play abilities of some pretty rude creatures at a ridiculously discounted price.

Protean Hulk on the other hand simply isn't good at the fair price of seven mana. If you've got seven mana, you should be able to win the game like that.

[freakish777]

I agree with kirdape here. Flash may be almost as good in GK-Salvagers as it in Hulk. Yes, it will require an additional 1W to combo off, but it has the advantage of not needing Flash to make GK good. In fact being able to bait Threshold with your Flash, have them FoW it, and then just play GK next turn anyways doesn't seem bad at all.

Next, some possibilities on things to fetch with Rector:

Tame:

Humility/Moat
Nether Void
The Abyss

Possibly sick:

Illusions of Grandeur
one half of PandeBurst
anything in a GWu Enchantress deck?
Ritual of Subdual (more annoying than anything else)
Meishen the Mind Cage (annoying)
Decree of Silence (annoying)
Transendance (? maybe with Sulfuric Vortex)

Potentially Broken:

Future Sight (generally untapping with Future Sight in play is GG)
Battle of Wits
Cadaverous Bloom (not quite Dream Halls, but close)
Form of the Dragon
Dovescape
Null Profusion/Recycle
Eye of the Storm (this one seems best)




Other creatures to use with Flash:

Sundering Titan for a one-sided Armageddon anyone?
Great Whale in High Tide (this is crap, but still do you really want to get beat by someone Flashing in Great Whale to Reset?)
Grozoth! (tutor for any number of 9cc cards!)


Things you can play with Hulk:

Show and Tell/Reanimation/Hunting Grounds/Natural Order + sac outlet
Sneak Attack/Shifty Doppelganger

[Solpugid]

Yes, flashing gamekeeper is good, but what are you getting? Salvagers? That means that your opponent gets to disrupt you by:

1. Countering flash, 2. stifling gamekeeper's ability, 3. killing salvagers if you don't mill the whole combo, 4. killing salvagers in response to the returning or playing lion's eye diamond, 5. countering diamond as you try to play it, 6. removing your grave from the game in response to the return ability, etc. etc.

Disrupting hulk flash is much more difficult, and I think gamekeeper-flash would be very good (a top tier combo deck) but not rediculous. The same goes for rector. Of the enchantments named above none of them really do that much without building the deck around abusing the tutored enchantment, and this leaves much less room to run control cards to force flash through in the first place.

Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't see flash without hulk as being a problem with the current card set.

[Eldariel]

Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't see flash without hulk as being a problem with the current card set.

There's absolutely no reason to wait until it'll be broken again if it isn't already, especially if it means axing completely harmless cards like Protean Hulk. Getting rid of Flash is the only path that really seems vindicatable and consistent. They've banned typos before, since apparently they can't admit that it's bad when cards do everything they aren't supposed to.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

I love playing flash with academy rector. I don't see it broken.

My choices would be:
Recycle
Mirari's Wake
Decree of ilence
Future Sight
Dovescape

DCI should unban replenish. Maybe flash + hulk for replenish is a fair trade.

[Clark Kant]

Everyone who posted here seems to agree that Hulk Flash is a problem deck that needs something banned.

When the entire community is in such unianimous agreement, I think we can safely conclude that Hulk Flash will have a piece banned.

I also agree that Hulk was never broken before Flash and it was around for over an year, so it's kinds of pointless to claim that Hulk is the problem card that should be banned imho.

The more pressing concern is the implication in the opening post that LAND TAX should unequivobly unbanned.

I am not certain that's true.

Land Tax by itself is no powerhouse. But now that we have both Chrome Mox AND Mox Diamond in the format, a one casting cost enchantment that draws three cards a turn with no additional mana investment or activation costs, filters the deck of all lands and has such incredible synergy with so many powerful cards to the point of breaking them... Solitary Confinement, Scroll Rack, Threshold, Armageddon, Belcher etc. Perhaps it's not Land Tax itself, but the way it interacts with so many uber powerhouses sure seems like it might infact be too strong.

I'm not completely convinced that a one casting card should do all that. It might be okay, it might not. I dont think we can make that determination without testing the card in an organized manner. And the thing about an unbanning is, once the dci unbans a card, the probability that they will reban it is next to nil even if it proves to be. So perhaps it would be better if we did try to break Landstill to the best of our abilities, and then come back and see if the card deserves its spot on the list.

[eternaldarkness]

The outcome of each of your scenarios:

1) They don't care about Legacy and would never doing anything quickly to respond to a problem or lack of change in the format. They continue to not care about Legacy and only answer our e-mails when they come in the form of a giant flood with the answer of "We are not going to change anything because it only affects one format and we want to stick to our policies". Lastly, they don't unban anything because they still don't care or think about Legacy.


I think this form of thinking is severely biased and uncool. First and foremost of all, DCI is an institution and like all institutions they have built in rules that must be strictly abided. They never emergency ban anything (they did this once and the circumstances then was radically different from what it is now) and they have come to the decision that they never will. If they are going to ban something it will be because the card is so dominant in the tournament scene that it forces 'unfun' situations. The card may also be format warping, every deck uses it, causes polarization between decks that use it and decks that try to hate it out etc. (Basically Raffinity in Mirrodin legal standard)

Stress however on ...the card is so dominant in the tournament scene... Like it or not, the only way to determine this is with an actual tournament. Hence Grand Prix Flash. It doesn't matter that we all know the decks is degenerate. It doesn't matter if we all send hate mail to the DCI. If the first line in the DCI Banning Rulebook reads, ban cards only if proven degenerate in a tournament scene, then they are only going to ban cards if they are proven to be degenerate in the tournament scene!

Faulting the DCI for adhering to their rules policy is just wrong.

[Silverdragon]

I think this form of thinking is severely biased and uncool. First and foremost of all, DCI is an institution and like all institutions they have built in rules that must be strictly abided. They never emergency ban anything (they did this once and the circumstances then was radically different from what it is now) and they have come to the decision that they never will. If they are going to ban something it will be because the card is so dominant in the tournament scene that it forces 'unfun' situations. The card may also be format warping, every deck uses it, causes polarization between decks that use it and decks that try to hate it out etc. (Basically Raffinity in Mirrodin legal standard)

Stress however on ...the card is so dominant in the tournament scene... Like it or not, the only way to determine this is with an actual tournament. Hence Grand Prix Flash. It doesn't matter that we all know the decks is degenerate. It doesn't matter if we all send hate mail to the DCI. If the first line in the DCI Banning Rulebook reads, ban cards only if proven degenerate in a tournament scene, then they are only going to ban cards if they are proven to be degenerate in the tournament scene!

Faulting the DCI for adhering to their rules policy is just wrong.

I'm ok with the DCI following their policy. I'm not ok with the policy itself because this policy can and will sometimes lead to degenerate formats at big events. A change in their policy could easily prevent this and make it unnecessary to wait for big events to show that card xy is broken when everybody knows it before.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I'm ok with the DCI following their policy. I'm not ok with the policy itself because this policy can and will sometimes lead to degenerate formats at big events. A change in their policy could easily prevent this and make it unnecessary to wait for big events to show that card xy is broken when everybody knows it before.


I agree. I understand their perspective about sticking to policy, but in the future they should re-think the coordination between the people who make text changes and the DCI and what impact the changes will have. There's no inherent reason the different departments can't coordinate. And I'm of the opinion that the pros of considering emergency bannings outweigh the cons.

[Phantom]

I agree. I understand their perspective about sticking to policy, but in the future they should re-think the coordination between the people who make text changes and the DCI and what impact the changes will have. There's no inherent reason the different departments can't coordinate. And I'm of the opinion that the pros of considering emergency bannings outweigh the cons.

Agreed.

Oddly enough the NBA is going through a similar situation with the suspensions of key players in the playoffs for leaving the bench during an altercation. Basically, a team got punished for having their star player decked. The rule is clear, and the commissioner followed it to a T, but the rule is dumb.

My favorite quote on the subject:

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
-Ralph Waldo Emerson

[Tacosnape]

I think Ralph Waldo Emerson was an overrated nutbar psycho for the most part (Though less so than Thoreau,) but that quote rings true.

And yeah, my Phoenix Suns got screwed pretty hardcore. I was pissed.:mad:

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Obviously they should ban hulk and/or flash and unban mind over matter and replenish.

There are no reasons to keep banned these cards.

[Hubris]

While I agree that Flash should be banned, I just wanted to point out something that hasn't been brought up, if by some chance Hulk is banned and not Flash.

Both Gamekeeper and Academy Rector read "When CARDNAME is put into a graveyard from play, you may remove CARDNAME from the game. If you do..." while Protean Hulk reads "When Protean Hulk is put into a graveyard from play..."

If I'm not mistaken, with GK and AR, you have an opportunity to remove them from the game with something like Coffin Purge before the "When CARDNAME is put into a graveyard from play" ability resolves. This then causes the ability to fizzle, because the "you may remove CARDNAME from the game" part cannot be met. This is not true for the Hulk however, because it just has to hit the graveyard.

The point of all this is with GK and AR you have an extra opportunity to disrupt the combo.

H

[dre4m]

While I agree that Flash should be banned, I just wanted to point out something that hasn't been brought up, if by some chance Hulk is banned and not Flash.



Actually it has been brought up. And discussed. Very much.

You are right about the additional opportunity to disrupt, though, but even then, you need some instant speed graveyard removal, like Tormod's Crypt, Withered Wretch, or my personal favourite, Extirpate.

[eternaldarkness]

I'm ok with the DCI following their policy. I'm not ok with the policy itself because this policy can and will sometimes lead to degenerate formats at big events. A change in their policy could easily prevent this and make it unnecessary to wait for big events to show that card xy is broken when everybody knows it before.

How else are they going to gauge whether a deck is broken or not? While the DCI do hire pro players who might be able to spot brokenness, really the best way to test a supposedly broken deck is with a big tourney. Yeah it sucks when the tourney turns out like Mirrodin Block with Raffinity on the loose...but that's just the way it is.

And saying that "everybody knows" a card is broken is kinda weak, IMO. Everybody knew Goblins was broken several years ago and cried out for banning lackey/vial. Now we know Goblins is beatable.

The Ferret said it best back at SCG: "Before you try to get Wizards to beat the big bad monster, maybe you should try beating it. Just a little harder."

PS: Note that I'm not against banning Flash. I think that the deck is too powerful...but I won't threaten to quit Legacy just because they don't ban flash. I'll just try harder to beat Flash without mangling my deck with hate. What I am against is the thinking that DCI and Wizards doesn't care for Legacy just because they stick to policies they've adhered to in every single format.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

How else are they going to gauge whether a deck is broken or not? While the DCI do hire pro players who might be able to spot brokenness, really the best way to test a supposedly broken deck is with a big tourney. Yeah it sucks when the tourney turns out like Mirrodin Block with Raffinity on the loose...but that's just the way it is.

They've pre-emptively banned cards before. Mind's Desire is one obvious example. They obviously have other criteria besides tournament results.


And saying that "everybody knows" a card is broken is kinda weak, IMO. Everybody knew Goblins was broken several years ago and cried out for banning lackey/vial. Now we know Goblins is beatable.

I think that this is a dangerous thing to say, because you're equating "format-warping" and "unhealthy" with "unbeatable", and it's an equivocation that is used whenever someone wants to justify not banning a card.


The Ferret said it best back at SCG: "Before you try to get Wizards to beat the big bad monster, maybe you should try beating it. Just a little harder."

Yeah. I saw that. I think it's a rather stupid thing to say, as it assumes that any time a deck is unhealthy and distorting, it's the fault of the players for not "trying harder" to beat it. We can carry that "argument" to infinity and just do away with banned lists completely. We can even forget the different formats, and just have one enormous, unrestricted card pool.

That's because it's not an argument or a point, it's a cliche that doesn't mean anything. It's also completely unfalsifiable. No matter how hard I try, you can just keep saying I should be trying to harder, and never have to aknowledge whether or not my points have any validity.

In short, news break: "Internet Pundit Says Something Stupid, People Who Joined the Conversation 5 Minutes Ago Think It Extraordinarily Clever."


PS: Note that I'm not against banning Flash. I think that the deck is too powerful...but I won't threaten to quit Legacy just because they don't ban flash. I'll just try harder to beat Flash without mangling my deck with hate. What I am against is the thinking that DCI and Wizards doesn't care for Legacy just because they stick to policies they've adhered to in every single format.

Well here at least we're on the same page. I do tire of the "OMGz Wizzurds h8ts L3g4cy!" spam. Wizards doesn't give it as much support as Extended and Standard for a lot of good reasons, but the constant bitching about it sure doesn't help.

[hi-val]

If the DCI bans anything, it will most likely be Flash. They've admitted that in the past, their practice was to ban stuff around the combo instead of the offending card itself. For example, Strip Mine and Hymn were restricted in T2 to stop Necropotence without actually doing anything to stop The Skull. Lo and behold, Necro dominated anyway. In Extended, they took out Dark Ritual before nailing Necro IIRC to stop Trix, and again, it stomped.

Banning Hulk and not Flash would be like banning Akroma instead of Entomb. They've admitted that they're just going to kill the problem cards now (I think this was after the Affinity debacle), which makes me think that they'll hit Flash, which is the degenerate part of the combo. It seems that Footsteps of the Goryo on my Protean Hulk doesn't seem as busted as Flashing it out.

As far as the DCI paying attention to Legacy goes, there's another huge Legacy tournament at GenCon they've got to manage, and in any case, they're talking about Flash. I wouldn't worry about them ignoring Flash when for three weeks, the only topic on the internet was a Mirage rare : )

[Machinus]

The only question now is whether or not they will take Hulk along with Flash. This would not affect the format. However, if they left Hulk in the format, it would demonstrate that they have spent more than zero minutes making a B/R decision, which is something we desperately need.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Flash would see some play if Hulk was banned, and might even be good, but it certainly wouldn't be format warping. Neither would a Necromancy/Footsteps deck with Hulks. Honestly, I think it matters very little which is banned, as long as one of them is. Banning Flash would probably make the DCI feel less silly, though.

[hi-val]

Flash would see some play if Hulk was banned, and might even be good, but it certainly wouldn't be format warping. Neither would a Necromancy/Footsteps deck with Hulks. Honestly, I think it matters very little which is banned, as long as one of them is. Banning Flash would probably make the DCI feel less silly, though.

Agreed. I'm sure they'll realize that having Hulk around the format is less dangerous than having Flash around the format, in any case.

[Machinus]

It matters very much that they ban Flash. Neutering the Flash deck is a necessary consequence of their decision, but they must take Flash. Consider this timeline:

1) Legacy is healthy and growing.
2) Combo piece #2 enters format. Nothing happens.
3) Combo piece #1 enters format. Format explodes.

This is the easiest banning decision ever. If the DCI is going to make any sense as an arbitrating body they have to restore Legacy to its previous state.

[Nightmare]

If the DCI is going to make any sense as an arbitrating body...http://magiccards.info/un/en/275.html

[Machinus]

http://magiccards.info/un/en/275.html

I think you might be the only person ever to suggest I'm being optimistic about the DCI.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's a good point. Can they make Time Vault do what it actually fucking says, if they're going to break Flash?

[burkey_boy]

flash needs to be banned. With all the new sets that will come in just sets up possibilities that there will be ore combos.
Also, if they only ban hulk, which is silly, there are also little bits like flashing in a titan and killing all lands and shanagans like that.
Not cool.

[Phantom]

http://magiccards.info/un/en/275.html

Man, I love the wording of old cards. "Time Vault Begins tapped"? So is it like, tapped in my hand, cause that might give something away.

My favorite was the original wording of Time Walk, "Target Player loses his next turn" which can either be read as a Time Walk, or the greatest card ever printed (Which I guess Time Walk may be anyway).

Edit: The only way banning Hulk would make sense is if there were some great outcry from the Legacy community that we really wanted Flash to stay. Since we all lived happily without Flash, I'm not sure many will miss it.

[FoolofaTook]

Has anybody considered the fact that WotC just drew nearly 900 people to a Legacy tournament with Flash-Hulk in play and getting a lot of airtime?

They might decide they want more of that type of action and not less. That would probably lead to a few significant unbannings on June 1st and not the banning of Flash or Vial.

I don't think they'll go that way but you have to think they perked up and noticed what happened at the actual event.

[Machinus]

Dirty pro's looking for cheap points does not equal a desirable event.

[FoolofaTook]

Dirty pro's looking for cheap points does not equal a desirable event.

That's true but then again the entire Standard format does not equal desirable events either and WotC has supported it for a decade now.

[Phantom]

Yeah, I think a popular format with terrible events is preferable to WoTC than a bad format with good events. I could be wrong about that though.

[Belgareth]

I'm sure Lille's attendance figure was much higher , so I doubt flash had any effect on that or if it did it was countered by the amount of people who refused to go because of it.
Location explains the increased attendance.

June 1st , it should be banned , however from the few people I have spoke to it looks unlikely :(

[eternaldarkness]

Sorry if it took me some time to reply to this.


They've pre-emptively banned cards before. Mind's Desire is one obvious example. They obviously have other criteria besides tournament results.

Mind's desire is more of the exception rather than the rule. Their current policy is to let players break the format then do something about it. I can certainly see where this policy came from as over a million players are much better at finding brokenness than a small group at Wizards/DCI.


I think that this is a dangerous thing to say, because you're equating "format-warping" and "unhealthy" with "unbeatable", and it's an equivocation that is used whenever someone wants to justify not banning a card.

Note that nowhere in my post did I imply this. I merely said what occurred several years ago. People wanted Lackey/Vial banned then and now Goblins is much more accepted (in the sense that much less people see that a ban is necessary). I didn't say that "format-warping" and "unhealthy" is "unbeatable" and I certainly don't know where this is coming from.


Yeah. I saw that. I think it's a rather stupid thing to say, as it assumes that any time a deck is unhealthy and distorting, it's the fault of the players for not "trying harder" to beat it. We can carry that "argument" to infinity and just do away with banned lists completely. We can even forget the different formats, and just have one enormous, unrestricted card pool.

Your taking Ferret's line way off base. It doesn't imply that the banned list is unnecessary. It doesn't say that its the player's fault for not trying hard enough. It's about players bitching about a deck before even trying to beat it. I see a lot of people over the net crying about Flash not because its broken and destroys the format but because they can't play their pet decks.


That's because it's not an argument or a point, it's a cliche that doesn't mean anything. It's also completely unfalsifiable. No matter how hard I try, you can just keep saying I should be trying to harder, and never have to acknowledge whether or not my points have any validity.

Of course I'm not going to say that you didn't try hard enough. That would be cheating and I wouldn't be addressing any of your points if I just cling to my own arguments. In any debate, you HAVE to address the opposing points. That said, if testing and tournament results proves that Flash is broken, then its broken and deserves the axe. But only after brokenness is proven, not before.


In short, news break: "Internet Pundit Says Something Stupid, People Who Joined the Conversation 5 Minutes Ago Think It Extraordinarily Clever."

This is unfair and uncalled for. I've been playing Magic for over ten years now and I've been lurking in the forums for over a year. Just because I've only realized that I love the Legacy format enough to contribute to discussion just now doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't have merit.

In short: Yeah, I joined 5 minutes ago. So what?


Well here at least we're on the same page. I do tire of the "OMGz Wizzurds h8ts L3g4cy!" spam. Wizards doesn't give it as much support as Extended and Standard for a lot of good reasons, but the constant bitching about it sure doesn't help.

Agreed, people should stop bitching and start doing something. For example, why not test play "unbanning" certain cards (eg. Land Tax) and then submitting the results to the DCI? At least it would make a much better argument for unabannings than say CARDNAME should be unbanned, Wizards doesn't care if they don't.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Mind's desire is more of the exception rather than the rule. Their current policy is to let players break the format then do something about it. I can certainly see where this policy came from as over a million players are much better at finding brokenness than a small group at Wizards/DCI.

That logic still only applies as far as using players as a back-up. Just because FFL can't forsee all interactions doesn't mean they can't judge whether a forseeable interaction is broken or not.


Note that nowhere in my post did I imply this. I merely said what occurred several years ago. People wanted Lackey/Vial banned then and now Goblins is much more accepted (in the sense that much less people see that a ban is necessary). I didn't say that "format-warping" and "unhealthy" is "unbeatable" and I certainly don't know where this is coming from.


And saying that "everybody knows" a card is broken is kinda weak, IMO. Everybody knew Goblins was broken several years ago and cried out for banning lackey/vial. Now we know Goblins is beatable.

Are you seriously not seeing the implication?

People say "A" about deck "1".

We know that "B" is true of deck "1".

Therefor "A" is untrue only if it contradicts "B". So if it's beatable, it can't be broken. That's equivocation. If they're not equivalent then what you're saying doesn't mean anything.


Your taking Ferret's line way off base. It doesn't imply that the banned list is unnecessary. It doesn't say that its the player's fault for not trying hard enough. It's about players bitching about a deck before even trying to beat it. I see a lot of people over the net crying about Flash not because its broken and destroys the format but because they can't play their pet decks.

I would love to see a quote somewhere where someone actually stated that the reason they want Flash banned is because it invalidates one specific deck. I would love to see that, because as it stands right now, Ferret is simply making an assumption, as are you, as is Anusien and everyone else using this red herring about people who are upset because Elves isn't viable post-Flash.

Assuming there are a handful of people with such a motive for complaining about Flash, I'd also love to hear how the motives of a small minority of people calling out to ban the card relates in any way to whether or not the card should be banned, or whether or not players are "trying hard enough" to beat it(maybe, just maybe).


Of course I'm not going to say that you didn't try hard enough. That would be cheating and I wouldn't be addressing any of your points if I just cling to my own arguments. In any debate, you HAVE to address the opposing points. That said, if testing and tournament results proves that Flash is broken, then its broken and deserves the axe. But only after brokenness is proven, not before.

The testing and tournaments have done this for a while. The initial GPTs were a pretty good indicator, as was simply testing the deck on MWS for a while, assuming you have a frame of reference to compare the deck to.

Hell, knowing what the previous combo potential in Legacy is and then comparing it to the Hulk-Flash kill condition should have been an enormous tip-off.


This is unfair and uncalled for. I've been playing Magic for over ten years now and I've been lurking in the forums for over a year. Just because I've only realized that I love the Legacy format enough to contribute to discussion just now doesn't mean that my opinion doesn't have merit.

In short: Yeah, I joined 5 minutes ago. So what?

So what's your frame of reference for the discussion? Do you know which points you're bringing up have been discussed on this same forum, and which haven't? What are the factors framing your opinion on the matter, and are they actually sufficient?

I could go on the Big Lebowski shpiel, but it shouldn't be necessary. I very rarely go the PopularMechanics forums and start posting about what I think about the LooseChange video, for instance. I have an opinion on the matter, but I'm also aware that my opinion is not adequately grounded in concrete knowledge of the subject to actually offer any constructive points to the discussion, regardless of how much merit I think my opinion has.

It doesn't actually matter whether your opinion has merit or not. It only matters whether your points have merit. If they're just repetition of previously made points, they don't have merit, because they've all ready been discussed(assuming that vein of discussion came to some sort of conclusion). If they make assumptions like "broken=unbeatable" and "the people who are complaining are only doing it because of their invalidated pet decks", your points can't have merit, because they begin with faulty assumptions.


Agreed, people should stop bitching and start doing something. For example, why not test play "unbanning" certain cards (eg. Land Tax) and then submitting the results to the DCI? At least it would make a much better argument for unabannings than say CARDNAME should be unbanned, Wizards doesn't care if they don't.

There is such a thread. Bongo started it I believe. I can't seem to find it and I'm on lunch break, but it's around somewhere.

[Nightmare]

There is such a thread. Bongo started it I believe. I can't seem to find it and I'm on lunch break, but it's around somewhere.http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4275

[hi-val]

I think The Ferrett's point applies in one of two situations. The first one is when Jitte is dominant and people haven't worked hard enough at getting around it, up to running Manriki-Gusari. When they adjust to Jitte's power level, it becomes manageable. Cards like Plagued Rusalka help ameliorate it and its power drops dramatically. The second situation is the absurdity of Raffinity, where even playing a deck that you've worked hard on to beat Raffinity won't win. There's simply no amount of "trying harder" that will get the win, because Raffinity is simply too strong.

It seems the debate is whether Flash was the first situation or the second.

[Machinus]

It seems the debate is whether Flash was the first situation or the second.

This article and the points in it have the same flaws as all of the ideas proposed by non-Legacy players about Legacy.

Obviously skullclamp was a bigger problem than jitte, but they were both problems, and there is absolutely no equivocation from Wizards about this.

That point is only relevant to this discussion to remind everyone that when there is something wrong with the format, Wizards rotates in better sets, or the DCI is left with the job of cleaning up the mess. Flash is more broken than either of those cards, and under circumstances even remotely resembling pro events (more than 3 weeks development time total), the evidence would be even nastier than the GP. The only reason anyone can say anything optimistic about this weekend is because they realize what should have happened.

[UrDraco]

I think this form of thinking is severely biased and uncool. First and foremost of all, DCI is an institution and like all institutions they have built in rules that must be strictly abided. They never emergency ban anything (they did this once and the circumstances then was radically different from what it is now) and they have come to the decision that they never will. If they are going to ban something it will be because the card is so dominant in the tournament scene that it forces 'unfun' situations. The card may also be format warping, every deck uses it, causes polarization between decks that use it and decks that try to hate it out etc. (Basically Raffinity in Mirrodin legal standard)

Stress however on ...the card is so dominant in the tournament scene... Like it or not, the only way to determine this is with an actual tournament. Hence Grand Prix Flash. It doesn't matter that we all know the decks is degenerate. It doesn't matter if we all send hate mail to the DCI. If the first line in the DCI Banning Rulebook reads, ban cards only if proven degenerate in a tournament scene, then they are only going to ban cards if they are proven to be degenerate in the tournament scene!

Faulting the DCI for adhering to their rules policy is just wrong.

I am going to fault them for adhering to there own policies. Their policies are to not do anything rash or anything too quickly. By sticking to those policies they allowed for something worse that unjustly banning a card to pass. If you ask me, warping and changing an entire format 3 weeks before a GP is wrong, very wrong, and is counterproductive to their general policy of not doing this too quickly. Not only that, but the GP they did this to is only the third in that format, EVER. You are right that the DCI's policies are there to stop "'unfun' situations" and I feel like making any and all preparation people have been doing for 6+ months a waste, is very "unfun". It could have been as easy to say that the errata doesn't become legal until FS is legal, instead of the arbitrary day someone knocked off updating its wording from their to-do list.

I agree that the right thing to do is prove that a card is broken with tournament results, but the third ever GP for Legacy is not the place to do it and allowing this to happen was incredibly disrespectful to our community. I did not want them to ban the card before the tournament, I was just upset that they sat behind the "ban cards only if proven degenerate in a tournament scene" rule when that wasn't the problem. The problem was that they know good and well how to remove overpowered cards from a format after a new set becomes legal. They have official dates announced well ahead of time for when new cards are going to become legal and we have plenty of time to prepare and get ready for those new cards. I am upset that they didn't at least realize that there should also be an official time for introducing rules errata which may or may not be overpowering.

There lack of policy for things which could only affect eternal formats is just support for my answer to the original question, are they going to do anything June 1st? I think not. They will never know enough about Eternal/Legacy to know that a certain card warrants banning or unbanning. When they type up decklists or do any sort of report they never get anything right. What makes anyone think that they understand us when we say that Mind Over Matter sucks and doesn't need to be on the banned list. All they hear is, Mind Over Matter, we can't un-ban that, it made a mess of standard/extended back in the day and in a format with a larger card pool it HAS to be ban-worthy. They will never know or try to know enough to care about us, and if they mess something up we are going to complain so much they are going to regret it forever.

I just hope that the 883 people that played last weekend make them reconsider doing nothing June 1st.

[FoolofaTook]

The thing I'm kind of wondering about with Flash-Hulk is how it's any different from Channel-Fireball with 4 Channels and 4 Fireballs in the deck?

With Flash-Hulk you have a small but measurable chance in the DotV variant to win before your opponent takes a turn. It's a very small chance, but it's there, maybe 4% or 5% or something like that. And it assumes your opponent cannot stop you with a Force of Will, which is a widely used card in the format. If you want to have the counter of your own in hand and make it unstoppable, well maybe that takes the 1st turn kill down to 2% or so.

With Channel-Fireball you would have a small but measurable chance to win turn 1 with the right combination of Spirit Guides in hand and no counter on the other side, however your risk would be hugely larger given that you'd be channeling 19 life or so into the Fireball and if it got countered... Not to mention you've just blown 5 cards (at least 2 spirit guides along with a land and Channel-Fireball) in an unsuccessful attempt that left you at 1 life.

Ok, so now we're on turn 3 with both decks and both of them are in the same situation. They've both got everything they need to go off and maybe they both even have a counterspell in hand to increase the odds, however the Flash-Hulk deck is basically risk-free in the attempt because the worst thing that could happen is they're back to trying to reassemble the two card combo. The Channel-Fireball deck is still worrying about counters on the other side and Lightning Bolts causing a draw and it might even have less ammo if it took some damage from early critters. In short the Flash-Hulk deck is stronger and more resilient than the Channel-Fireball deck.

If they don't ban Flash on June 1st there's no good reason for them not to un-ban Channel. Channel is not half the danger that Flash is in the absence of Black Lotus.

[Ewokslayer]

Why wouldn't you just use Channel to pay and activate Belcher and save yourself 12 life?

[FoolofaTook]

Why wouldn't you just use Channel to pay and activate Belcher and save yourself 12 life?

Similar but more deadly concept to Channel-Fireball but still counterable and still requiring an extra card (2nd mana source for Channel) and still more expensive and risky than Flash-Hulk.

My point is that Flash-Hulk is likely as strong or stronger than anything you could do with Channel. It's a two card combo that can go off as an instant and kill on turn zero. Channel was banned because they were concerned about rare turn 1 wins. Where are we with Flash right now?

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

Flash hulk is the most broken deck I've ever seen. Flash/Hulk needs to be killed too. banning hulk or banning flash, it doesn't matter, but the deck needs to be killed.

Also, Legacy wasn't healthy before unerrataing Flash. The lack of a true control deck is a problem.

If legacy were simmilar to old extended, it would be more fun.

Also I think Land Tax, Mind Over Matter and Replenish need to be unbanned. These unbannings would make the format more healthy.
I can't understand why these cards are banned when Flash, Goblin Lackey, Æther Vial, Wasteland, High Tide and Reset are legal.
I don't agree with banning these cards, but obviously they're a lot better.

[Goblin Snowman]

Flash hulk is the most broken deck I've ever seen. Flash/Hulk needs to be killed too. banning hulk or banning flash, it doesn't matter, but the deck needs to be killed.

Also, Legacy wasn't healthy before unerrataing Flash. The lack of a true control deck is a problem.

If legacy were simmilar to old extended, it would be more fun.

Also I think Land Tax, Mind Over Matter and Replenish need to be unbanned. These unbannings would make the format more healthy.
I can't understand why these cards are banned when Flash, Goblin Lackey, Æther Vial, Wasteland, High Tide and Reset are legal.
I don't agree with banning these cards, but obviously they're a lot better.

I don't know about "more fun". TES and CRET Belcher were changing the metagame to more aggro control such as Fish and Chalice aggro decks already. (Like me randomly playing the Junk Pile mirror...."shudder"). Loam and more optimized Survival decks were taking the place of a "control" deck, along with BHWC Landstill and other random decks I can't think of. Having literally hundreds of playable decks out there seems pretty healthy to me.

[Slay]

Similar but more deadly concept to Channel-Fireball but still counterable and still requiring an extra card (2nd mana source for Channel) and still more expensive and risky than Flash-Hulk.

My point is that Flash-Hulk is likely as strong or stronger than anything you could do with Channel. It's a two card combo that can go off as an instant and kill on turn zero. Channel was banned because they were concerned about rare turn 1 wins. Where are we with Flash right now?

Channel is good by itself, because with Channel you can have any one of Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Goblin Charbelcher, Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Brainstorm/Plunge into any of those and you win. It makes every single one of your bombs cost either one mana or two mana, and all of yor tutors cost one mana. Having one card combo off for the win with HALF your deck is a helluva lot better than having two cards combo off with each other. There aren't many cards on the list that are more powerful than Flash, but Channel is undisputably one of them.
-Slay

[FoolofaTook]

Channel is good by itself, because with Channel you can have any one of Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, Goblin Charbelcher, Diminishing Returns, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Brainstorm/Plunge into any of those and you win. It makes every single one of your bombs cost either one mana or two mana, and all of yor tutors cost one mana. Having one card combo off for the win with HALF your deck is a helluva lot better than having two cards combo off with each other. There aren't many cards on the list that are more powerful than Flash, but Channel is undisputably one of them.
-Slay

How do Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains turn into turn 1 wins with Channel in Legacy? I could maybe see a hand with a lot of playable colored mana turning Burning Wish and/or Infernal Tutor into a win, although without Fastbond the odds are lower.

Obviously there are turn 3 scenarios that are completely broken with Channel, however by turn 3 a good Flash deck is going to win without a heckuva lot of directed hate coming it's way.

My basic point is that Flash is broken enough that it probably is no less broken than Channel was at the time it was restricted in the old format.

If your point is that a deck could be made that featured multiple breaks with Channel and is also coherent to play I totally agree with you. However I'm not convinced that deck would be any more likely to be able to get all of those breaks in play in the first turn or two and it might well just be clogging itself. Flash-Hulk seems to be very predictable and virtually unbeatable against decks that are not specifically aimed at it.

Editing to say: in the Force of Will environment I'm not sure a turn 1 effect that sacrifices a lot, as most of the Channel combos probably would can be considered more than an enormous highstakes gamble. Flash is never a gamble that costs you the game unless you are facing Flash.

Nevermind on Ill-Gotten Gains, just saw the errata that allows you to pick up discarded cards.

[Slay]

How do Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains turn into turn 1 wins with Channel in Legacy? I could maybe see a hand with a lot of playable colored mana turning Burning Wish and/or Infernal Tutor into a win, although without Fastbond the odds are lower.

Obviously there are turn 3 scenarios that are completely broken with Channel, however by turn 3 a good Flash deck is going to win without a heckuva lot of directed hate coming it's way.

My basic point is that Flash is broken enough that it probably is no less broken than Channel was at the time it was restricted in the old format.

If your point is that a deck could be made that featured multiple breaks with Channel and is also coherent to play I totally agree with you. However I'm not convinced that deck would be any more likely to be able to get all of those breaks in play in the first turn or two and it might well just be clogging itself. Flash-Hulk seems to be very predictable and virtually unbeatable against decks that are not specifically aimed at it.

Editing to say: in the Force of Will environment I'm not sure a turn 1 effect that sacrifices a lot, as most of the Channel combos probably would can be considered more than an enormous highstakes gamble. Flash is never a gamble that costs you the game unless you are facing Flash.

Did you know that there exists fast mana sources such as Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Chrome Mox that produce green mana and allow you to go off with Channel first turn? Because they're legal, and played in decks that would play Channel.
-Slay

[FoolofaTook]

Did you know that there exists fast mana sources such as Lotus Petal, Elvish Spirit Guide, and Chrome Mox that produce green mana and allow you to go off with Channel first turn? Because they're legal, and played in decks that would play Channel.
-Slay

I know they're there. So you essentially drop your hand turn one to put a lot of your life into a spell and the opponent comes back with FoW pitching a Brainstorm and then maybe even another FoW. There's a very real possibility that you've just put yourself at a real disadvantage while going for the win. Of course the opponent has also lost 2 to 4 cards stopping you so you're not dead yet.

With Flash the worst thing that you've done to yourself, likely, is pitched a card to put Gemstone Caverns in play at the start. If you get countered you're at a disadvantage but not remotely the same disadvantage as if Channel-whatever got cut off at the knees.

I can see a really ugly U/g/r deck that could make Channel-Fireball into just a completely nasty 2 or 3 turn inevitability. Both Channel and Fireball are Sorceries so you'd just be running the one set of Tutors and essentially other than 4 Channel, 4 Fireball, 4 Brainstorm and 4 Mystical Tutor the entire deck could be focussed around fast mana and counterspells.

It's my belief that the same kind of inevitability is inherent in the Flash-Hulk deck and it's just a question of finding the synergies and putting it in play.

I don't believe that Channel should be un-banned, just that if Flash-Hulk is going to be allowed to develop into the killer deck we all know is there, then there's no reason not to un-ban Channel and at least make insta-death more varied and interesting to watch as coin-flips decide 75% of the matchups.

[C.P.]

My basic point is that Flash is broken enough that it probably is no less broken than Channel was at the time it was restricted in the old format.

Imagine a spell:

ARTIFACTSAREGAY

2

artifact

Spend green mana only to play this spell
Sac, pay X life: Add X mana into your mana pool. It can only be used to play artifact.


Now this is not very broken is it? In only gives you Turn 2 Colossus or mind slaver. Not very broken at all. A humble stifle will end it all. How horrible. Worse than a combo card that can only be played in a deck that is built for it. for sure.

Channel is a very broken acceleration. Even tooth and nail or Biorhythm is intimidating with channel. Flash is good, but channel is fundamentally wrong.

[FoolofaTook]

When Channel was restricted it was because there was an opening hand that could kill the opponent before they could respond. It involved another restricted card, Black Lotus, and/or Mox Emerald and Mox Ruby. Even with the old draw-and-go rules for the first player the odds on having one of 4 Channels plus the enabling mana cards and Fireball were fairly low. Nonetheless it was considered to be a bad result when somebody could win before an opponent could play.

A few decks took the time, before Channel was restricted, to just fish for it and Fireball and try to win on turn 1 or 2 fairly predictably. Fastbond, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Fork, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister and Timewalk were the basis for those decks, which became known as recursion decks because they would take multiple turns (sometimes as many as 7 or 8 in a row) looking for the killer combo before the opponent got to play his first turn and pass only to watch the sequence sometimes start back up.

Even after Channel was restricted, along with Regrowth and Demonic Tutor and Wheel of Fortune and *Fork* (what an absurd restriction) people would continue to build decks just to look for the bloody combo and eventually even Fastbond was restricted. They didn't win any more games with Channel than the average tightly constructed deck. But they were a major nuisance to play against because it's just no fun to watch somebody masturbate with their deck for 5 or 10 minutes between each of your 15 second turns.

Flash-Hulk is so much more deadly and powerful in Legacy right now than anything a Channel deck could hope to do in 1995. It's like Channel-Fireball at instant speed.

Editing to say: Fastbond may have been finally done in by Land Tax and the Zuran Orb. It was an amazing deck thinner and life producer given that you got one life for each land you thinned effectively and could keep using Land Tax.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

If they ban Flash and/or Hulk and unban Replenish, MoM and Land Tax the format would become more healthy.

Still I don't understand how someone can think replenish is broken in legacy when better cards like Vial, Lackey, High Tide and Reset are legal. That sounds ridiculous.
If a card isn't broken, it should be unbanned.

[C.P.]

When Channel was restricted it was because there was an opening hand that could kill the opponent before they could respond. It involved another restricted card, Black Lotus, and/or Mox Emerald and Mox Ruby. Even with the old draw-and-go rules for the first player the odds on having one of 4 Channels plus the enabling mana cards and Fireball were fairly low. Nonetheless it was considered to be a bad result when somebody could win before an opponent could play.

A few decks took the time, before Channel was restricted, to just fish for it and Fireball and try to win on turn 1 or 2 fairly predictably. Fastbond, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Fork, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister and Timewalk were the basis for those decks, which became known as recursion decks because they would take multiple turns (sometimes as many as 7 or 8 in a row) looking for the killer combo before the opponent got to play his first turn and pass only to watch the sequence sometimes start back up.

Even after Channel was restricted, along with Regrowth and Demonic Tutor and Wheel of Fortune and *Fork* (what an absurd restriction) people would continue to build decks just to look for the bloody combo and eventually even Fastbond was restricted. They didn't win any more games with Channel than the average tightly constructed deck. But they were a major nuisance to play against because it's just no fun to watch somebody masturbate with their deck for 5 or 10 minutes between each of your 15 second turns.

Flash-Hulk is so much more deadly and powerful in Legacy right now than anything a Channel deck could hope to do in 1995. It's like Channel-Fireball at instant speed.

Editing to say: Fastbond may have been finally done in by Land Tax and the Zuran Orb. It was an amazing deck thinner and life producer given that you got one life for each land you thinned effectively and could keep using Land Tax.

Channel will change the way game works. With GG, You get large amount of mana that will speed up the game without having to combo out. Channel dosn't necessary have to kill on turn 2. Having 10+ mana on turn with 1 card is ridiculous enough already.

[Ophidian]

Editing to say: Fastbond may have been finally done in by Land Tax and the Zuran Orb. It was an amazing deck thinner and life producer given that you got one life for each land you thinned effectively and could keep using Land Tax.

If memory serves, Fastbond was restricted due to Type 1.5
When 1.5 was first conceived as the bastard child of T1, there was a vicious deck that revolved around Fastbond, Storm Cauldron, and Drain Life. You would have the 'bond and the Cauldron out, and tap a swamp for B, return it to your hand, play it, take a point, tap for B, rinse repeat, eventually going to Negative whatever life, and kill your opponent with a Drain Life to the dome.
Since the old 1.5 was based around the Banned/Restricted list, it made sense to restrict it in T1, thereby banning it in 1.5, yet keeping it viable for T1, and still keeping the recursion decks in check. Which, once again, if memory serves had all been exterminated by the advent of Weissman style keeper decks by that time. Although, it was pretty disgusting to see recursion decks to their thing, my particular favorite was Verduran Enchantress based with Rabid Wombat, and Spirit Link, usually getting Berserked 3-4 times, while you still had 20+ turns in the bank.

[FoolofaTook]

If memory serves, Fastbond was restricted due to Type 1.5... Although, it was pretty disgusting to see recursion decks to their thing, my particular favorite was Verduran Enchantress based with Rabid Wombat, and Spirit Link, usually getting Berserked 3-4 times, while you still had 20+ turns in the bank.

Yeah I think you are right about the type 1.5 restriction of Fastbond. Another early abusive type 1.5 deck had Land Tax, Fast Bond, Zuran Orb and Land's End with a ton of critter removal, mostly damage based. Stormbind was in that deck also as I recall. Something would come out by about turn 5 and kill you. The transitional sideboard was all green-red landkill and strip mines. It was just ugly.

The Enchantress deck was one I got to see played a lot in grand melees. There'd be like a 40/40 Wombat chewing on players in one bite as they verged in on it. Eventually somebody would have both a disenchant to get rid of the enchantment that made the Wombat untargettable and a plow and the madness would end.

[Slay]

When Channel was restricted it was because there was an opening hand that could kill the opponent before they could respond. It involved another restricted card, Black Lotus, and/or Mox Emerald and Mox Ruby. Even with the old draw-and-go rules for the first player the odds on having one of 4 Channels plus the enabling mana cards and Fireball were fairly low. Nonetheless it was considered to be a bad result when somebody could win before an opponent could play.

A few decks took the time, before Channel was restricted, to just fish for it and Fireball and try to win on turn 1 or 2 fairly predictably. Fastbond, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Fork, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister and Timewalk were the basis for those decks, which became known as recursion decks because they would take multiple turns (sometimes as many as 7 or 8 in a row) looking for the killer combo before the opponent got to play his first turn and pass only to watch the sequence sometimes start back up.

Even after Channel was restricted, along with Regrowth and Demonic Tutor and Wheel of Fortune and *Fork* (what an absurd restriction) people would continue to build decks just to look for the bloody combo and eventually even Fastbond was restricted. They didn't win any more games with Channel than the average tightly constructed deck. But they were a major nuisance to play against because it's just no fun to watch somebody masturbate with their deck for 5 or 10 minutes between each of your 15 second turns.

Flash-Hulk is so much more deadly and powerful in Legacy right now than anything a Channel deck could hope to do in 1995. It's like Channel-Fireball at instant speed.

Editing to say: Fastbond may have been finally done in by Land Tax and the Zuran Orb. It was an amazing deck thinner and life producer given that you got one life for each land you thinned effectively and could keep using Land Tax.

Flash-Hulk is like Channel-Fireball with instant speed. No one's debating that. We're telling you that you're wrong because this isn't 1995, and you can do much more broken things now than just pay 19 points of life and try to burn someone out. Channel combos with everything that costs lots of mana and does really good shit, do you get that? You can't Flash and win if you don't have Hulk in your hand, but you can Channel and win even if you don't have the Charbelcher(which is almost strictly superior to fireball anyways) in hand. You can use the mana to cast a tutor, and then win. Flash doesn't allow you to cast a Eladamri's Call to get the Hulk and then Flash again. It's a dead card without Hulk. Channel is only a dead card(assuming oyu have the mana) if your hand is entirely mana. Channel is much better, I fail to see how you don't get that yet.
-Slay

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know about that. Channel is in a worse color for combo, and discouraged you from playing the cards that help protect/set up the combo, like Duress and Daze and Force of Will. Nor do you really need a billion mana when you can spend 1U and win.


How about they're both broken in half?

[kirdape3]

Channel's an even bigger mana cheat than Flash, but both of them are pretty stupid. As in, please don't allow this in Legacy kthanx.

This deck still doesn't compare in degeneracy to some of the old Extended decks, but again, please don't allow this in Legacy kthanx. It's the only Eternal format where the degeneracy ends up evening out - Vintage you end up playing 30 of the same cards in any high-level deck.

[FoolofaTook]

I fail to see how you don't get that yet.
-Slay

I do get that Channel potentially could be more abusive than Flash as a trigger.

Here are the issues that I have with it being portrayed as clearly more abusive than Flash:

1. It's a Sorcery. 99% of the time (probably more) it's going to be cast during your turn. As an Instant Flash is definitely more abusive in terms of timing.

2. It requires GG to cast, which means that in order to Tutor for your win you probably need to come up with GGUU or GGB1 just to trigger the abusiveness on turn 1. This as opposed to coming up with just U1 to win with Flash, in your opponent's turn, before he has had any chance to play anything but instants.

From a mana requirement standpoint Flash again is more abusive in terms of likely availability, triggering off of any Spirit Guide in hand plus a Gemstone Caverns to win without Tutor before Channel possibly could. This assuming the combo in hand. Once Flash gets into it's actual turn 1 it is probably equally abusive to Channel since Channel can just as easily have the combo in hand and has probably the same shot of having the triggering mana on hand once it can put a land in.

3. It requires a significantly larger gamble to go for it's win. Same number of spells in play but Channel has spent 7 or 8 life to go get Charbelcher and activate it. That's just a clear difference in the cost of operating the combo.

If there is a place in which Channel becomes clearly better in the first couple of turns it would probably be in the synergy department. There are probably fewer cards, strictly speaking, needed to give Channel-whatever a 90% chance of going off by turn 3 than the DotV build and maybe even the Kiki build.

My take would be that the turn 0 factor and the lesser likelihood of getting screwed out of needed mana probably balances off the better chance of finding Channel-whatever by turn 3. Both approaches are already capable of being dealt with by the opposition by that point but both will probably also go off successfully anyway. Again, the instant nature of Flash looms heavily here.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that once you are talking nuclear weapons and small targets the megatonnage may be less important than accuracy and opportunity.

[Happy Gilmore]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that once you are talking nuclear weapons and small targets the megatonnage may be less important than accuracy and opportunity.

Well said.

[C.P.]

Why does some people only thinks Channel as a combo enabler? Is Dark Ritual only being played in combo? The same can go with Channel. It's actually even better than that. Dark ritual cannot power turn 2 DSC or something. Turning life into mana just snaps the game in half. I just don't see how channel is not more broken than flash. Flash cheats on creature. It is not a good card if creatures are not good. Channel cheats on the fundamental concept of the game.

[Goblin Snowman]

Why does some people only thinks Channel as a combo enabler? Is Dark Ritual only being played in combo? The same can go with Channel. It's actually even better than that. Dark ritual cannot power turn 2 DSC or something. Turning life into mana just snaps the game in half. I just don't see how channel is not more broken than flash. Flash cheats on creature. It is not a good card if creatures are not good. Channel cheats on the fundamental concept of the game.

And takes double green and doesn't win right then. Even if it breaks the game in a more fundamental way, it's not as good.