[Day 2 Updates] GP Columbus!

[Ewokslayer]

Does it really matter?

Either way you were playing the best deck in the format by a wide margin.

[Di]

More decks prepared to battle the Kiki-kill. Steve ran the Disciple kill because he guessed that less people would prepare for it and most of the hate would be aimed at Kiki. I think that that is rather smart meta-gaming.

This may be correct, but two of my opponents actually told me that they were expecting to be playing against the Disciple version rather than Kiki-Jiki because it came out first and thus was more popular.

No matter, as Ewokslayer just pointed out it was the best deck either way.

[freakish777]

I think what Steve is saying is that with the information available to him at the beginning of the tournament (ie, not knowing Sadin's decklist and knowing that he had less byes than some other people, and thus has more rounds to slog through) that he decided on the Disciple kill in order to bypass some of the hate that would be played and that he's happy with his decision and would come to the same conclusion if the tournament were to be replayed and he still only had the same information available to him. I also think that he's agreeing that in the abstract the Kiki-kill is stronger, allowing for more cards in the maindeck to find the combo or force it through, and that perhaps if he had had Sadin's list before the tournament he may have run it (even if he did, there's no guarentee he would have gotten to the same record as he did seeing as how he likely had at least 1 more round to play than Sadin did, and his match-ups were different meaning there could have been several matches he may have lost had he played Sadin's list).

Billy Moreno himself with the same list (as he designed it) didn't fair as well as Steve did. Additionally, hi-val also played the Disciple kill, although didn't make it to day 2. I think the largest benefit of playing the Kiki version is that you can board it in or out. One of it's downfalls are that it's susceptable to removal (Sudden Shock/Wipe Away, EPlague, 2x StP/etc).

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I never made such a claim. My view is that Kiki kill is better, objectively speaking, because it plays fewer cards. I played Disciple based on a *metagame* call. I do believe, however, that for the GP metagame, Disciple kill was better, ceteris peribus – that is, holding everything else equal. But other things are rarely equal.


This is completely untrue. I did not claim that. I claimed that Disciple was a metagame call. But the statement that Disciple was a metagame call is not logically equivalent to the statement that kiki was the incorrect metagame call.


I think that's kind of tricky. It's hard to say what's "objectively speaking" better. Objectively, if no one had known about the combo, and I was taking the deck to the GP, I'd rather have the Disciple kill than the Kiki-kill. You lose 4-5 slots of dig/disruption, but you gain immunity to virtually all hate. I would say that in a "Legacy vacuum", Disciple isn't a meta-game call, it's the superior version, because it gives its opponents no outs except for counter-magic and discard, and you still have room for 8 or so disruption spells. Of pre-Hulk Legacy lists, only Thresh w/ MD Mage and possibly Fish/Landstill would give you any problems, and they're still not what you would call match-ups.

But when everyone knows about the combo in general, Kiki becomes superior, since the immediate and obvious answer is to run a deck with lots of blue and black disruption, and the Kiki kill allows more room for you to fight general disruption, both to protect your combo and to give you the edge in the mirror, which you now have to assume is going to be highly relevant.

Your reasoning appears to be that people have made the assumption that the Kiki version is better, and because of that assumption, the Kiki version actually loses a lot of its strengths, because people will board and play hate that's only good against Kiki, with the gamble that they won't run into the Disciple version.

Which could go either way; I think that might have been a logical step too far at the point of the GP, based on available decklists and the hate they were running. While you may dodge a lot of the hate that Goblins would be playing, it still appears that Goblins is an extremely favorable match for the Kiki version.

I did raise the same concern with Jack before he left for Ohio though. He decided it was better to have the general disruption MD, and use the conversional SB against anticipated hate.



Also, I would say the opposite in terms of Kiki vs Disciple and power vs resiliency. Disciple appears to be more powerful since there are virtually no specific answers to it(defining powerful as a combination of speed and how difficult a plan is to stop), but if its plan is thwarted, its harder for it to recover with extra dead slots(defining resiliency as a decks ability to recover from setbacks).

[TheAardvark]

Bannings and restrictions take effect on the 1st (in this case, july 1st). New sets become legal on the 20th of the month following the release.


Uh, no. B&R changes are effective on the 20th of the month they are announced. So, if Flash (or whatever) gets the axe on June 1st, the ban would be effective June 20th.

Just saying.

[Sea R Hill]

Does anyone knows where we can find the Day2 decklists?

[Bryant Cook]

BS! I lost points going 6-3.

[Nightmare]

Yeah, I have a lot of ground to make up...

[Ewokslayer]

I gained only 22 points for going 9-3-3. :frown:
That's less than the points I lost in the last round.
Though I am now 15th in my area.

[Smmenen]

Uh, no. B&R changes are effective on the 20th of the month they are announced. So, if Flash (or whatever) gets the axe on June 1st, the ban would be effective June 20th.

Just saying.

I stand corrected. I just looked at the wizards site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/announce/dci20070301a

You are right. Ok, So Flash will be banned June 20th.

[Di]

Lol I lost 15 points after going 6-3 (technically 5-3 from 1st round bye). Oh well. I thought I'd lose a lot more actually since all of my losses came from established type 2 players/pros that had no eternal rating at all.

In other news, WHERE'D THE REST OF MY NAME GO?!?!? :P AWESOME

[Tacosnape]

Sheesh. A lot of people passed me after the GP. Down to 91 in the US.:( I wish I had access to tournaments. Like, ones that aren't bought out by Daniel Oravet.