[Brainstorming] Break Replenish!

[Mordenkain]

Sooo... With the newest B/R changes, we flush down Flash, and get to play Replenish or Mind over Matter instead. MoM is waaaay to overcosted to ever make something remotely good, so I suggest we focus on Replenish instead. So, how to break it?

Ill start out with what ideas I have in mind:

1) Replenish Breakfast
Putting Replenish in a Cephalid Breakfast shell could be a possibility. Not all that good in my oppinion, but it's a possibility.

2) Mesmeric Orb + Seeker of Skybreak/Grim Monlith.
Either some staxx-ish deck or some Elf thingie, maybe somewhere around Secret Force style, I dunno.

3) Replenish Loam
My own idea (I think, haven't seen it mentioned anywhere else). Basic idea is to use a G/W/? loam shell. Loam + Confinement + Replenish could be something. Also, splashes could give us Devestating Dreams + Burning Wish (red splash) or Pernecious Deed and Damnation and discard (black splash).

4) Enchantress
No idea about this, just thought that enchantress plus replenish should be able to do something. XD

Any other ideas?

- Mordenkain

[Pinder]

I think that Replenish might be best suited to some sort of Enchantress/Loam Shell. It just seems like it would fit well in something that could stall long enough to both get to the mana required and the neccesary cards in the yard via Dredge. Incidentally, you should be able to Dredge a lot when you're drawing a metric fuckton of cards from your various Enchantresses. Also would help fight Wateland on your Sanctum and such. Hell, you could probably even sneak in Wasteland for some sort of crazy Loam/Wasteland shenanigans. Wow, you might not even need PandeBurst at that rate...

[greenmage]

Replenish-Opalescence.
With a controllish shell (wrath, counterspells, parallax tide, parallax wave, humility, seal of cleansing), and attunement+brainstorm+tolarian winds to seek, and opalescence beatdown as win option. I've seen a casual deck with this shell in action, and it was pretty strong.

[Mildiou]

I'm so excited with the unbanning of Replenish. It's one of my favorites cards.

Could a build similar with the old Standard version with Parallax Wave/Tide be viable in the current metagame? One enchantment I would like to see used with Replenish is Decree of Silence, it could help to protect your plans after Replenish is played.

[Mordenkain]

I don't think we should be focusing on what to win with when playing replenish, but rather how to get the enchantments to the grave, how keep them there, and how not to die in the meantime.

In short, less thought on win condition, more thought on shell.

[Mirrislegend]

I'd say go for the something similar to Replenish decks of yore. Enchantress, with blue NOT for words of wind, but for a very stable secondary draw engine (Attunement) and control pieces.

[burkey_boy]

Creatures
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Enchantments
1 City of Solitude
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Exploration
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Karmic Justice
2 Moat
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Seal of Fire
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
2 Sylvan Library
4 Utopia Sprawl
1 Words of War

Lands
6 Forest
2 Plains
4 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath

61 cards...
i say 2/3 replenish MB, 1/2 SB but i honestly dont know what to cut... they are all so beautiful...

im thinking at least 1 karmic justice and 1 sylvan library...

[greenmage]

I'm so excited with the unbanning of Replenish. It's one of my favorites cards.

Could a build similar with the old Standard version with Parallax Wave/Tide be viable in the current metagame? One enchantment I would like to see used with Replenish is Decree of Silence, it could help to protect your plans after Replenish is played.

Decree? I don't know. After you used replenish, the opponent is quite dead anyway. I'd rather draw cards that I can hardcast the normal way.

[Cait_Sith]

Replenish? Combine it with Inutution, Gifts, and Pursuit of Knowledge, plus 2 each of the five hondens. Then see what happens.

Edit: A preliminary list:
// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
6 [ON] Island (1)
5 [P3] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [U] Tundra

// Spells
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [UD] Replenish
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [CHK] Honden of Cleansing Fire
2 [CHK] Honden of Infinite Rage
2 [CHK] Honden of Seeing Winds
3 [TO] Compulsion
2 [CHK] Honden of Life's Web
2 [CHK] Honden of Night's Reach

[Silthyn]

What about a pure combodeck with Pandemonium and Saproling Burst? Too weak?

Otherwise, I like the idea with Opalescence. Maybe dredge will work? :rolleyes:

[Cait_Sith]

What about a pure combodeck with Pandemonium and Saproling Burst? Too weak?

I forgot about PandeBurst. I am using the shell you see above in it, given that I have immense draw and discard. Sadly I can easily win on Turn 4-5, but that seems a little slow (although having Swords and Force is nice).

[caiomarcos]

I think a good start would be the Type 2 decks of 2000, for reference:

(25) Lands
9 Island
8 Plains
4 Adakar Wastes
4 Rishadan Port

(35) Other
4 Attunement
3 Counterspell
1 Energy Field
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Frantic Search
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Opalescence
3 Parallax Tide
4 Parallax Wave
4 Replenish
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Removal
1 Sky Diamond
1 Wrath of God


Add some FoW and maybe some Daze in the maindeck, put in 4 Tundra and you already have a reasonable list.

I'm testing Careful Study in place of Frantic Search. It's a sorcery, it sucks, but you'll use it first turn to rip a counter form the opp's hands or do dig after whatever you need and start to fill your grave, and since you're not playing it in the same turn as replenish, the lack of the untap clause makes doesn't make much difference.

I also added 4x City of Traitors (could be Ancient Tombs, don't know which one is better) for 1st turn Careful Study, 2nd Attunement and 3rd a huge Replenish. It maybe easily to disrupt, but is fun as hell, is like playing in 2000! Only if I had my Saber Bargain to fight it!!!

[Silthyn]

I forgot about PandeBurst. I am using the shell you see above in it, given that I have immense draw and discard. Sadly I can easily win on Turn 4-5, but that seems a little slow (although having Swords and Force is nice).

Pact of Negation can't be that bad in PandeBurst, right? :rolleyes:

[Cait_Sith]

Pact of Negation can't be that bad in PandeBurst, right? :rolleyes:

Umm, Pacts are utterly crappy cards. All 5 of them. So yes, they are bad in PandeBurst because if ANYTHING goes wrong, you just auto lost.

[dre4m]

Umm, Pacts are utterly crappy cards. All 5 of them.

I really don't think that this is a true statement. Sure, you lose if they fizzle your combo, but isn't that a big step toward losing anyway? Sure, you can recover, but your opponent will be well on his/her own way to winning by then.

[BreathWeapon]

The interesting conundrum that Replenish has is that it could just be worse than Solitary Confinement + Intuition/Burning Wish/Living Wish in a control shell, so it's either Turbo Form of the Dragon.dec, where Replenish is worse than Show and Tell, a Burning Wish target for 3cSlide, Rifter or an anti-counter/sweeper card for Enchantress etc.

[Peter_Rotten]

Hmm, could we do something with this following combination?

Replenish
Burning Wish
LED

With 3 lands in play, we could cast BWish for Replenish, pop LED which dumps some Enchantments in the yard, then use the LED mana to cast Replenish.

[Arrowni]

Squee and Attunement in a controlish build is my coffee, you are already graveyard dependant, lets make it matter.

[shteev]

Umm, Pacts are utterly crappy cards. All 5 of them. So yes, they are bad in PandeBurst because if ANYTHING goes wrong, you just auto lost.

How about Orim's Chant to protect your combo then?

[Nydaeli]

Something with Hatching Plans might be decent. Or not, since that card sucks.

[Mulletus]

OLD SCHOOL REPLENISH Combo!!!!
~~ actually shown to me by mike glow (w/ adjusments)

Combo
4 Saproling Burst
4 Pandemonium
4 Replenish

Draw/graveyard fill
4 Attunement
4 Intuition
4 Careful study
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental note

Land/accel
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Serum Powder
4 delta
4 stand
4 tundra
4 trop
4 volcanic

Now I think this can win on the first turn, but there is no control. It needs refinement. sorry about the caps, but i gotta run. I wanted to keep this a secrete and walk into a tourney with an old combo unbanned.

[laststepdown]

I would really like to see a dredge deck with Recoup to flashback the Replenish, a Life from the Loam manabase, with Pandeburst and Seismic Assault backup, maybe Pernicious Deed/Volrath's Stronghold/E Witness backup. Sylvan Library/Children of Korlis/ Volrath's Sronghold?

My point is, I really want to put Pandeburst in LftL control. Am I completely nuts?

[FakeSpam]

From Adept Q&A:


Yes, I think Replenish will be starring in some viable combo-deck, probably Aluren-style except with enchantment-based control shell instead of a counter-based control shell. More versatility, less stack control, might be a fair trade especially as it allows beating decks like Goblins rather consistently.

So, what exactly is an enchantment-based-control-shell? It's been years, is paralax wave/tide really still the best option? That just seems too slow and horrible.

[Ophidian]

I would really like to see a dredge deck with Recoup to flashback the Replenish, a Life from the Loam manabase, with Pandeburst and Seismic Assault backup, maybe Pernicious Deed/Volrath's Stronghold/E Witness backup. Sylvan Library/Children of Korlis/ Volrath's Sronghold?

My point is, I really want to put Pandeburst in LftL control. Am I completely nuts?



What an insanely awesome idea

You run Oath of Druids, 0 creatures, activate oath, put your library in the yard, flashback the Recoup on the Replenish, and win with PandeBurst. it would cut down on the combo cards, cause you'd only need 1 Pandemonium, 1 Sap Burst, and 1 Replenish, and 1 Recoup!!

[Goaswerfraiejen]

What an insanely awesome idea

You run Oath of Druids, 0 creatures, activate oath, put your library in the yard, flashback the Recoup on the Replenish, and win with PandeBurst. it would cut down on the combo cards, cause you'd only need 1 Pandemonium, 1 Sap Burst, and 1 Replenish, and 1 Recoup!!

Except that Oath is still banned in Legacy.

[Ophidian]

Except that Oath is still banned in Legacy.

damnit! I keep forgetting that...

[Alfred]

Hmm, could we do something with this following combination?

Replenish
Burning Wish
LED

With 3 lands in play, we could cast BWish for Replenish, pop LED which dumps some Enchantments in the yard, then use the LED mana to cast Replenish.

This seems to be the most powerful route that you can go. Using Replenish like Yawg's Will in Long is probably the best way you can push the ability of the card, and reduce the amount that you have to pay for it.

The way to maximize this plan is just to use as many bomb enchantments as you possibly can, so that when you pop LED, you are almost guaranteed to bring something good back into play.

[Bane of the Living]

I like the idea of it in Loam since your most powerfull cards are the enchantments and you already have the dredge engine to help, avoiding dumb cards like attunement that cost card disadvantage.

Between Confinement, Humility, and Seismic Assault in Columbus Confinement that probably warrents the room for a copy or two.

[Peter_Rotten]

OH! I just broke Mind Over Matter!

Put it into Spring Tide for the turn 4 win! Roar!

Edit!: WTF! I'm sorry. I don't know why I posted that in this thread! LOL!

[Cait_Sith]

Put it into Spring Tide for the turn 4 win! Roar!


So you can win a turn after you win? That sucks and is confusing.


The Loam decks do seem like a great target for Replenish now. Once Bane said Seismic Assault my brain went "Ooh"

[Amoeba-]

I sort of modified the previously legal list from 2000 Worlds.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Rishadan Port
3 Island
1 Plains

4 Attunement
4 Opalescence
3 Parallax Tide
4 Parallax Wave
4 Replenish
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Energy Field
1 Mind Over Matter
1 Seal of Cleansing
4 Standstill
1 Wrath of God
1 Decree of Silence
4 Force of Will
4 Careful Study

1 Chill
2 Pithing Needle
1 Decree of Silence
2 Lilting Refrain
2 Wrath of God
2 Daze
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Seal of Removal
3 Erase
Remember that once Parallax Tide, Opalescence, and Decree of Silence hit play you have a lock. Because I believe the errata has been changed that when Parallax Tide removes itself it immediately returns, thus Decree with it with zero depletion counters on it.

[BreathWeapon]

This seems to be the most powerful route that you can go. Using Replenish like Yawg's Will in Long is probably the best way you can push the ability of the card, and reduce the amount that you have to pay for it.

The way to maximize this plan is just to use as many bomb enchantments as you possibly can, so that when you pop LED, you are almost guaranteed to bring something good back into play.

So you load up on dead cards in Enchantments for Replenish instead of bombs for Tendrils of Agony? That just seems really, really awful. Dredging into it as a kill condition is about the best I've seen, and even that is really awful. I think you're probably stuck with Replenish as a supplimental strategy for Enchantress or Rifter.

[Maldur Sven Vedukor]

I think the opalescence version needs mirari's wake. And 4 opalescence is too much.

[C.P.]

I think the opalescence version needs mirari's wake. And 4 opalescence is too much.

Can you explain why? No offense, but it seems to me that you like that card a bit too much. I cannot see why wake would be good in Opalescence ver.

Also, from my old experience, I believe that you want a many Opalescences as possible. Especially in a deck that randomly digs and discards.

@ LED version

I never though this day would come, but I agree with breathweapon. The idea is neat, but does not seem very efficient.

[dahcmai]

Boseiju, Who Shelters All wasn't around for the glory days of Replenish and it seems like a natural fit nowadays. What's 2 life compared to having an uncounterable Replenish? Seems good to me.

CIPT is annoying, but damned amazing when faced up against control.


Grim Tutor wasn't around at the time either.


Isn't there some ravnica sorcery that lets you go get some auras and dump them in the GY? I forget and am too tired to go look it up.


Just some random thoughts to think about.

[laststepdown]

Bosejiu is a land! It can be put into play with Loam!

This is becoming a better and better idea.

[Mordenkain]

As far as I understand from peoples opinion from thread, using Replenish in a loam shell seems the best idea. Obviously we would need to go G/W for loam and replenish. Then there is a couple of ways to go. Black for discard, damnation and deed seems pretty decent, but red gives us Burning Wish and Devestating Dreams, and gives the ability to hardcast PandeBurst combo, if that becomes necessary. Don't think blue gives us good things for the deck, perhaps intuition for loam+lands or thirst for knowledge.

So loam shell it is.

Any other thoughts on win conditions than PandeBurst combo?
Also, anyone able to hand out a few shells for G/W/R and G/W/B loam decks?

[Cait_Sith]

I think you're probably stuck with Replenish as a supplimental strategy for Enchantress or Rifter.

I disagree. The old Replenish lists from world need very little adjustment to become Turn 4 lists. Even though they lack Frantic Research (HOLY BOMB!) they can still stop Aggro dead, really annoy Aggro-Control (if that Replenish resolves then often Ag-Con is faced with dealing with more threats than they run, most of which are as big or bigger than their threats)

[MattH]

Bosejiu is a land! It can be put into play with Loam!

This is becoming a better and better idea.

Hah! Ya'll be up in my posts, stealing mah techs:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27179.0 (post #18)
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29336.30 (page 2, post #50)

Seriously though, I think there's no point to Replenish as a way to Zombify an expensive enchantment like Form of the Dragon or Dovescape, because if your enchantments are useless on their own (because they're uncastable), you might as well just use Pandeburst, whose pieces are similarly bad/useless on their own.

[Cait_Sith]

Actually you can win on the back of Saproling Burst just fine. I did it once against combo after they triple Duress'd my hand.

When you use Replenish the idea is to gain a strong board position from it. If I were to bring back 2 Parallax Wave, a Parallax Tide, a Lilting Refrain, and a Worship, (maybe even some Opalesence) I am clearly far ahead of my opponent.

If I bring in a Dovescape or a Form of the Dragon, I am going to be easily somped by a large number of decks out there.

[Illissius]

Hah! Ya'll be up in my posts, stealing mah techs:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27179.0 (post #18)
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=29336.30 (page 2, post #50)

Seriously though, I think there's no point to Replenish as a way to Zombify an expensive enchantment like Form of the Dragon or Dovescape, because if your enchantments are useless on their own (because they're uncastable), you might as well just use Pandeburst, whose pieces are similarly bad/useless on their own.

Oddly enough, the TMD thread doesn't have a single mention of Loam, while this one doesn't have Foil. Regardless, they also go well together.

[shteev]

Something with Hatching Plans might be decent. Or not, since that card sucks.

We do have access to Standstill, of course. We even get the Standstill back if we cast Replenish with it in play... altho we do give away 3 cards which isn't good.

There are great defensive options for Replenish, but they're all soft locks, arent they... we need a good hard lock, or a great win condition.

Can we do anything with Stasis?

[Mordenkain]

Can we do anything with Stasis?

I doubt we can do anythnig useful with stasis. Really.

[thefreakaccident]

you know, I think the stasis would be a perfect way to abuse both replenish and MoM... basically, the MoM could serve as a secondary lockpeice with the stasis, you could EOT tap all their permanents, your turn you repl. for stasis & continue to lock out... the other enchantments could work out quite well together (like the blue enchantment *oponents' perms come into play taped*, and things like moat and the such)

I am not sure how competative it could be (probably slower than hell), but I could see it being a good casual deck.

[ebbitten]

My cousin threw together a pretty cool deck after replenish was unbanned, it had attunement, mental note, some countermagic, leyline of the void, opalescene and a couple other things all thrown together, completely untuned but it was still fairly strong, completely died to fish tho.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

[/Necro]

Idea;

With the following cards in the Graveyard;

3x Measure of Wickedness
1x Leyline of the Void/Solitary Confinement

you can cast Replenish and win at the end of the opponent's next turn.

The Measures will all see the Replenish hit the yard, switch to the opponent, and with either Leyline or Confinement in play, be unable to switch back to you. Stictly speaking the last part isn't necessary, but they're potentially useful on their own(Leyline especially with Goyf and Cephalid Breakfast roaming around), thus reducing the number of dead spots to 4 over other Replenish -> Win combos, and that spot isn't hard to hard-cast if needs be, since it would put you in U/W/b instead of having to support green or red, which don't add anything else to the deck's strategy.

A skeleton;

4x Measure
4x Replenish
4x Intuition
4x Thirst for Knowledge
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Brainstorm
4x Careful Study
4x Force of Will
2x Parrallax Tide
3x Stifle

This is probably terrible, but I think the core idea has potential. Perhaps Confinement with Squee to supplement the draw-discard engine, as well as give you game 1 wins off of Confinement-Squee lock?

[FakeSpam]

It is hardly what I would consider broken, but I have had favorable testing results with a replenish deck. Im running the legacy equivalent of the 2000 worlds list that is floating around the interweb.

My major concerns being goblins and thresh. I haven't been able to test those matchups.

[Akira]

I think the best ways to break this broken card. Is to play the opalescence build. Or the Pandeburst. I love the intuition+gigapede engine in the pande burst deck.

But either pithing needle or ground seal would be a good idea in either deck to protect the graveyard from crypt or extirpate. In my opinion pithing needle would be better because it works on Jitte, and other stuff. Heck maybe even stifle or trickbind cause it stops storm combo. But I dont know how much extirpate is played.

Also another thought for the opalescence version. How about sterling grove since it protects enchantments from destruction.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Ground Seal doesn't protect against Crypt. It targets players, not cards in graveyards. The only easy way to fight Crypt, Leyline, and Extirpate that I can see would be a white black build with heavy discard elements.

[from Cairo]

Think the best bet is to focus on Enchantments you'd want to have in play then just work in Opalescence and Replenish, if going the control route. Propaganda/Ghostly Prison, Parallax Tide/Wave, Worship, Seal of Cleansing, Aura of Silence, Ivory Mask, Suppression Field, Solitary Confinement, Rune of Protection: Red, etc. I'm sure there are plenty I'm missing some more good Blue ones would be ideal if you wanted to go a control route, gaining access to FOW, Brainstorm etc. Ancient Tomb would probably be really stong too since most of the enchantments have a :2: requirement to them and Replenish itself having a :3: may help boost the deck's speed.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Titania's Song stops Crypt + fast combo(if you can get it out in time). Just sayin'.

[MattH]

[/Necro]
3x Measure of Wickedness
1x Leyline of the Void/Solitary Confinement


What advantages does this kill have over the Pandeburst one, other than being able to hardcast the pieces?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

What advantages does this kill have over the Pandeburst one, other than being able to hardcast the pieces?


Half as much space, sort of. The second piece is either useful on its own, and not always necessary. Plus, being able to hard-cast it makes you able to dodge the GY hate that you would expect in the current meta-game, while packing the most powerful GY hate yourself.

I think it necessitates running Intuition, but Replenish should probably be doing that anyway.

I would also imagine that being able to hard-cast it would make life-gain easier to negate.

[AntoonAukema]

Hello

I think the build from worlds 2000 would be a good start for replenish.

4 Attunement
4 Opalescence
4 Parallax Tide
4 Parallax Wave
4 Replenish

Adding some slots for enchantments who would fit right in there.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

For a updated mana base.

Adding Counterspell, Force off Will, Swords to Plowshares, Meddling Mage for some extra control.

Careful Study should replace Frantic Search i think.

I would like to hear more opinions on this idea!

[Chaz_the_hunter]

Could you do something with Teferi's Care/Arneson's Aura and Enchanted Evening? 1 white to destroy everything your opponent has? that would be awesome

[Peter_Rotten]

Why bother destroying things when you can just win?

And BTW, bad Necro, bad.