[Question 2] 6/1 B&R Changes

[Peter_Rotten]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move? What would you have done differently and why? Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck? Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

[Braves54321]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

I am very pleased with the b/r announcements. I feel they made the right move banning Flash first and foremost. This b/r announcement was very key to the current and future legacy community as almost everyone was aware of and almost inherently scared of Legacy ruled by Hulk Flash.

In addition I am happy to see Mind over Matter and Replenish unbanned, simply because of the fact that it shows that the DCI is willing to unban cards at some point. We're been stuck with basically the same cards on the banned list since Nov. 2004. This shows in the future possibly more cards can come off, even if it is a slow process as the DCI is afraid of format warping cards.


What would you have done differently and why?
I feel there are more cards that can be unbanned, such as Hermit Druid. If Wizards took the time and investigated the format further they could have seen a 1/1 combo deck enabler will never work in a format where creature hate is so prevalent.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?
It is possible. I see any new deck that is viable having to use Replenish. Also, old archetypes such as PandeBurst might come back, with the right build and/or right player could be competitive. I may be wrong, but I don't see Mind over Matter being incorporated into any competitive deck just based off its casting cost being UUUU (and then 2 colorless to top it off).


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?
Someone better to answer this question would be SpatulaoftheAges, or anyone with more experience with the deck than me, as I have basically none. I assume its going help the deck fight control (by nullifying counters) and mass removal effects such as Pernicious Deed.

[MattH]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?
I love it. Flash's time was up, and I might note that the position I have had since the beginning - that Flash deserves to be banned but it's a fun thing to experience once - is exactly what Forsythe thought. I'm happy to see he and I were in agreement.

There were any number of cards I wanted to see back, but Replenish was probably my favorite. I am extremely happy to have a new toy to play with, and it will be tons of fun figuring out which way to go with it is the best - Enchantress? UW Opalesence? Pandeburst? Some kind of arcane Dredge or Gamekeeper build? WHO KNOWS! AND IT'LL BE A FUCKING BLAST TO FIND OUT!

I do not envy Vintage right now. They are going to go through a huge upset, between Flash, Future Sight turning Ichorid insane, and now this.


What would you have done differently and why?
Unban Land Tax, otherwise everything was pretty much hunky-dory. I thought they could have unbanned Entomb or Hermit Druid or Replenish but not all three and really not even any two - any one of them is fine but they grow in power exponentially when put together.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?
Replenish: at least one!
MoMa: No, probably not ever.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?
It can beat Deed without Crystal Chimes? I dunno, I am much more interested in the combo versions. Not that I don't love me some Enchantress (one of my favorite decks) but it's what they call a 'known quantity' and I am more interested in exploring something new to me.

Maybe they'll go back to Sylvan Library/Pursuit of Knowledge. Who knows.

[Afro]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

It can be said that nearly EVERYONE saw the flash banning coming. I really shouldn't have to go into why but when people actually play Serum Powder to find hate cards there is a problem with the format.

As for the other 2 cards coming off the list (Replenish and Mind over Matter) I am estatic! I have fond memories of playing Replenish in the old Saga/MM type 2 format as well as running PandeBurst in Extended. I feel the deck has only grown stronger with the new cards coming out recently. (TfK, Careful Study, etc)


What would you have done differently and why?

I would like to think maybe one or two more cards could have come off of the list. Land Tax as most know is a huge target as almost everyone on this forum knows. I really didn't like the reasoning given in the article on mtg.com. The article essentially stated that the card is on the edge of the list but because it is boring and annoying it stayed on. Give me a break!

Dream Halls I would have also liked to have seen get lifted but that is because I am in the camp of "Lets see if the community can break this card wide open." rather than just banning cards because they MIGHT be too powerful.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?

Replenish holds great potential. Not only does it bolster the current Enchantress builds that were on the rise before Flash.format but could bring back past decks like PandeBurst or the Opalescence versions that run Tides and Waves. Dredge could also bring about a new type of Replenish that the world has never seen. Only time will tell. Mind over Matter on the other hand....not so much. The mana cost seems too color restrictive and I feel that Wizards almost wants you to try and use it with Replenish. I just don't see it happening.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

I haven't played enchantress since Replenish was still legal however I knew when it departed from the format that the deck lost a very vital tool. Being able to replay your entire board after a Deed activation or Tranquility spell is HUGE. Karmic Justic alone just reset both boards but now you have a spell that puts you right back into the game, most likely ahead of your opponent.

[FakeSpam]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

Yes. Flash was a little format warping. Then again, so is goblins. Goblins doesn't kill you on turn 0 with protection, however.


What would you have done differently and why?

I personally would have unbanned everything that came pre-banned as part of the extended package. Actually, I would have probably jacked the power level of the format completely. Unbanning: Earthcraft, Entomb, Gush, Frantic Search, Hermit Druid, Land Tax, Oath of Druids, Skullclamp, Vamperic Tutor, and Worldgorger Dragon in addition to the removal of Mind over Matter and Replenish. But that's just me. I'm not in charge of these things. Probably for a good reason. This leads into the next question.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?

No. Specifically, I don't believe that Replenish or Mind over Matter are really important anymore. The cards that are already able to be played are much more powerful and format defining than these two. Sure, Replenish is pretty good. It's not broken by any stretch of the imagination. No more so than Living Death or Patriarch's Bidding.[/quote]


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

It means enchantress has more resilliance against hate. Replenish isn't a pro-active card for enchantress. Heck, it's not even green. In a perfect world, enchantress wouldn't even run it. Does it make enchantress better? Well, yeah. Duh.

[Eldariel]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

It's a start. Flash obviously needed to go and as much seemed to be obvious to R&D as well, for which I am glad. Mind over Matter and Replenish deserve a doomo arigato. I think they could've done more though. They promised major changes and while Replenish seems to be an actually relevant card off the list, two safe cards don't feel 'major' to me.


What would you have done differently and why?

I would've wanted to slow the format down to try and further reduce the restraints the format sets on deck building. I'd want to try and maximize the importance of strategic deck construction and that calls for a few less random wins. Therefore, I'd axe Goblin Lackey and probably Lion's Eye Diamond (although I love all the non-combo applications). I'd also have unbanned Land Tax and Dream Halls as potentially powerful contenders that have limiting factors. Land Tax is an interactive card and even when you get it going, it isn't that overpowering. While the effect tends to win you the long game, I really don't feel like it's too strong, and looking at the recent colour breakdown, white could really use some help. Dream Halls because you can win for 4 playing Aluren or more recently Replenish, I think 5 is a fair costing for a total 'I win'-card. I mean, that's the cost of Battle of Wits too.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?

Yes, I think Replenish will be starring in some viable combo-deck, probably Aluren-style except with enchantment-based control shell instead of a counter-based control shell. More versatility, less stack control, might be a fair trade especially as it allows beating decks like Goblins rather consistently.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

I don't feel like Enchantress really stands to gain that much from Replenish outside anti-hate, but Replenish seems to have uses outside that, and Enchantress is viable regardless. Overall, I'm very happy with what they did, but I feel like they could've done more, especially with all the huge changes to Vintage.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

I'm going to go with most of the other answers and say "sort of". I like the changes they made, but really we only got one new toy, and it's really just supplemental. I wouldn't want to see any more blue cards come off, as the color's got enough help at the moment, but it would've been nice to see Land Tax and, say, Necropotence come off, as those are the two weakest colors, two very iconic and powerful cards, but ultimately slow control engines. Which aren't broken and really are helping the weakest archetype in the weakest colors in the metagame.

Of course, I imagine that the explosion over Flash made them less willing to unban potentially problematic cards this time around.


What would you have done differently and why?

Unbanned Land Tax and Necropotence. Yeah, maybe playing your first land will result in your opponent going Mox Diamond into Land Tax, but that's an acceptable risk to me, ultimately. The effect of Land Tax isn't that powerful when you don't have mana to abuse it with. At the end of the day, Life from the Loam is better.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?

I've been tinkering with Mind over Matter in a Basalt Monolith/Power Artifact deck, but it's not been what you would call promising. Attunement-Replenish might be borderline viable again, with Ideas Unbound and some silly new Enchantments that came out over the past five years.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

Tier 1.5 again, I guess. Which makes Goblins a little weaker, storm combo a little weaker, and Solidarity stronger.

[Machinus]

Regarding the question:

I don't think it is possile to make an intelligent argument in favor of leaving Flash legal.

It's a good thing that the DCI had enough time left over from not doing anything in other formats to fix some problems with Legacy. It's a bad thing that it took them three years to change their minds about Mind Over Matter being broken. I don't expect that the format will get the full twenty minutes a year necessary to come to these conclusions.

I don't think Forsythe's comments about Land Tax make sense. The card can't beat any of the best decks. It's not very powerful, and I don't understand how is it at all "oppressive." I am worried that the standards they are using to moderate these lists are not realistic.

I hope something neat comes out of Replenish. It's not tier 1, but that's the point - it should have been returned to us a long time ago.

Regarding Lackey and LED - I'm really surprised people want these cards to go. They are not broken in this format, and I think they are very important for supporting Aggro and Combo. I'm also really confused about how anyone could want both of them gone. Either Aggro is a problem and Combo is too weak to fight it, or Combo is good and has overpowered Aggro. It is impossible to object to both cards based on tournament results; in my opinion, they support neither, but at least such a position would be consistent.

I also think LED and Lackey are format driving cards, and removing them and cards like them makes the format too much like extended, which I find very undesirable.

EDIT: I probably should have linked to this (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/14244.html) earlier.

[Di]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

I believe this is among the first steps Wizards will be taking to make Legacy a much more enjoyable format, starting with the obvious banning of Flash and unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish, two cards that had no reason to be on there to begin with. Given that GP Columbus was an enormous success in their eyes (despite the Flash fiasco, you can't ignore almost 900 players for a Legacy event), I believe Wizards will be paying more attention to Legacy and thus will make more good decisions involving the removal, and banning of certain cards in the future.

Because this is a Legacy exclusive forum I'll keep my Vintage opinions out of it, but I'll just say they did the exact opposite for Vintage with what they did for Legacy. Unrestricted Gush with storm combo? Thanks!


What would you have done differently and why?

I still would've removed Land Tax from the list despite Forsythe's claims. One of the arguments against it was, and I quote, "the games involving it are agonizing and boring." Games against Solidarity are completely agonizing and boring, so should we make a call to ban High Tide? What about Stasis? It's incredibly poor rhetoric to believe that a card is banned not only because of what it does, but because people don't like it. Also, they completely overrate the power level of Land Tax. Power level aside, look at what kind of decks would be running it: Decks with basic lands. A lot of them. That limits it to 1-2 colors maximum. With only the few rare examples, the top decks in Legacy flourish because they have access to a variety of colors and flexible gameplans. Decks with Land Tax have basically one gameplan: slow, bad control. And that's control in a deck who relies on not playing lands in a format that is back to being dominated by Goblins. When do they expect to cast Wrath of God? How does a Land Tax deck's combo matchup fare? Does the 3 basic Plains in their hand scare the combo player to death? Honestly.

Now that the Land Tax rant is aside, there's the focus on what other cards can potentially come off the list. I'm not going to get into a giant debate agonizing over certain questionable cards, but instead point out those that actually won't completely distort the format.

Dream Halls: Possibly borderline, but it involves you building a deck full of overcosted crap to make it possible. Oh, and it costs 3UU. I'm much happier winning with my storm combo deck before turn 2, thank you.

Hermit Druid: This guy requires a deck full of bad cards and an untap step. Considering that everyone and their mother has cards specifically for Goblin Lackey, how would Hermit Druid be any good in this format? Oh yeah, people run graveyard hate too.

Those above, along with Land Tax, are the only cards I'm pretty sure that won't do as much as leave a tiny dent on the format. There are certainly other cards worth mentioning, such as Earthcraft, Entomb, Gush, etc, but we gotta take baby steps. No need for giving us an entirely new format right away.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?

Mind over Matter, no, and it won't see any play, ever. The card is far too expensive to be bothered in any deck. On the other hand, if the DCI ever smoked crack and unbanned Tolarian Academy then Mind over Matter would be a tier 1 card. As for Replenish, it opens up a handful of new possibilities. You get the joy of another combo deck in the format, as well as gives some interesting new options, specifically with dredge.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

Honestly, I don't believe it will mean much at all. I believe Enchantress's win streak earlier in the year was attributed to not having any hate at all against at, not to mention people didn't know how to play against it. Replenish helps the deck out, but it doesn't really solve any of their biggest problems aside from control matchups, which were already positive. Pernicious Deeds aren't seeing all that much play these days, so getting the board nuked only to bring it back isn't going to happen all that often. However, it does make the deck a bit more resilient to disruption, so it'll be interesting to see how it ends up.

[Mad Zur]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?Absolutely. Banning Flash was necessary. Unbanning cards was less expected, but I'm happy that they would like to shorten the banned list when they think it's safe to do so.
What would you have done differently and why?There are many more cards on the banned list that may not need to be there, but I wouldn't make too many changes at once, particularly right now. I think two or three cards coming off the list is sufficient, and the two they chose were the most obvious choices, in my opinion. The format is already going through a major shift as a result of Flash and there is much more room for innovation. I don't think unbanning more cards is at all necessary right now. I agree with Forsythe that the list should ideally be as short as possible, but the format will not suffer from this being done gradually. If I had unbanned anything else, it probably would have been Land Tax.

I would certainly not have banned anything except Flash. I was hoping that the Flash situation would show people that complain about Goblins in this format what an actual degenerate format is, but that doesn't seem to have happened. There is a large variety of decks that are favored against Goblins, using many different strategies. Goblins is a good deck and might be the best deck (though I am not convinced of this), but it is certainly not a dominant deck.

Some have also expressed concern over Storm combo. While combo has gotten stronger over the past two years, it is not even close to dominant. It is still relatively unpopular, has several bad matchups, and can often be effectively beaten with hate.
Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?I would not be surprised to see a good Replenish combo or combo-control deck, although it might turn out to be weaker than the options we already have. I would be surprised to see a good deck that uses Mind Over Matter.
Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?
First of all, I'd like to point out that I think Enchantress was a viable deck before Flash, even without Replenish. It has a good matchup against any aggro deck and can be built with enough threat density to have a close matchup with Threshold and most control decks. I'd also like to point out that "hate" was not an issue. Mass enchantment removal is hardly played at all, and the deck can play through any that does see play, particularly with Karmic Justice and Holistic Wisdom. More specific hate cards like Tranquil Domain are much harder to deal with than things like Pernicious Deed or Engineered Explosives, but the specific hate is completely unplayed.

The biggest problem for the deck, in my opinion, was and still is its weakness to combo. It can run enough disruption to have a good chance against Solidarity, but the faster combo decks that have recently gained some popularity can often win before any of this disruption comes online. These decks were rarely played, so Enchantress was still a decent option. (Enchantress can run hate for these decks, but this takes slots that are usually necessary to maintain a decent control matchup.)

Replenish, unfortunately, does not address the deck's worst matchups. It makes recovering from hate easier, which is not relevant at the moment. It is amazing against any black deck, which is also mostly irrelevant. It is the best threat the deck has against control decks, although as I mentioned, it already had access to a large number of good threats against control decks. It makes the deck better on several fronts, and will certainly be played, but it does not significantly change the deck's place in the metagame.

I think the viability of Enchantress will mostly depend on the popularity of combo. If decks like Iggy Pop, TES, and CRET Belcher remain about as uncommon as they were before Flash, Enchantress will continue to be a strong choice.

[Zilla]

First, a preface: I just spent half an hour writing the answer to this question and it failed to post. I'm going to answer again, but it's going to be much shorter. I apologize for the brevity.


What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?
Flash was obviously the correct call. Dead horse.

Replenish and MoM are relatively innocuous as well. I predicted these would come off, and I agree with these changes.


What would you have done differently and why?I might have unbanned Land Tax. Given its inherent restrictions (it forces you to run a ton of basic lands, it's white, and it forces you to build a deck around it), it's probably not at all broken. Then again, Forsythe is right that it lends itself to extremely boring games. While this fact isn't enough to justify the banning of a card, it is enough to justify my not caring one way or the other.

I might have unbanned Dream Halls. It's relatively slow and forces you to build around it. However, blue is already one of the strongest colors in the format, and it probably doesn't need any more potentially broken tools. I think it should be reviewed carefully in the future, but it's cool where it's at for the time being.

I might have banned Goblin Lackey. Obviously Flash was far, far more broken. But the key argument against Flash's legality was not that it was unbeatable, but that it badly distorted the format. Lackey also badly distorts the format. People say that this is okay because Lackey is inherently "fair", but I think this creates a dangerous double standard. While Flash was head and shoulders above everything else in the format, Lackey is still above everything else in the format as far as power level and distortion are concerned, just not to as extreme a degree. I think that if format distortion is a viable argument in favor of Flash's banning, then it is a viable one in favor of Lackey's as well.

That said, any format with a cardpool as deep as Legacy's that has aggro as "the best deck" is probably inherently healthy, so perhaps an exception can be made. I'm relatively ambivalent one way or the other on this one, but I do think Lackey deserves careful review at some point.

I might have banned Empty the Warrens. I say EtW over Lion's Eye Diamond because they offer very different things to combo. Traditionally, combo is "fair" because it has an inverse relationship between power and stability. The faster and stronger the combo is, the more unstable and easily disrupted it tends to be. The slower it is, the more stable and less easily hated. Iggy Pop is a very good example of the former, while Solidarity and Aluren are excellent examples of the latter. Flash broke this rule in half, which is why it so badly needed to go. CRET Belcher and The Epic Storm are really pushing it.

Where LED offers added speed and power, it does so at the cost of stability and consistency in most cases. EtW simply adds consistency in the form of extra kill conditions, and resilience to hate by being a totally different type of kill condition than the alternatives. This could potentially create a format-warping situation where decks are forced to dedicate their entire sideboards to beating not one but two very diverse kills.

That said, I think it's way too early to make a call on this one. I think EtW should definitely be kept under a watchful eye, but at least several months' worth of tournament data are required before making any kind of an informed decision.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?Mind Over Matter is probably too slow to make into a viable deck. It may see casual play, but I strongly doubt it will impact the format.

Replenish used to be legal in 1.5, before the B/R lists were split. As a combo piece, it was never viable back then, and as far as I know, no cards have been printed since that would make it much more potent. It's possible that it could be made into a relatively competitive combo deck, but I doubt that it will be better than other existing combos, particularly given the extreme amount of graveyard hate in this format.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?Replenish will give Enchantress some added protection against mass enchantment removal, which no one plays anyway. It's a nice tool here, but it won't severely impact that deck's viability one way or the other.

[scrumdogg]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement?

Flash needed to go & Wizards didn't fumble this. Kudos, but why exactly couldn't they have waited until the release of X ed. this summer (well AFTER our big event of the year) to have removed the power level errata?

MoMa won't matter much, although I'm expecting somebody will use it in an amusing manner. Replenish ....I hate that fucking card, but after I scraped myself off the ceiling I realized that the format has grown since it last left. Hell, the format became a separate format in the meantime...as well as speeding up & gaining a ton of new cards that combat Replenish. Also, in the Internet Age, information to deal with any card/combo/deck is much more readily available. That being said, I expect somebody will break Replenish hard enough to either warp the format or necessitate another banning. I would love to be wrong, but 1 card 'oops I win' combo cards tend to have that effect when enough effort to abuse them is utilized.

Land Tax is definitely boring, and the decks which would abuse it are control decks....that have difficulty handling combo....do we really want a slow, boring format in which aggro is completely dead & combo & control grind it out?

Godzilla states my feelings on Lackey better than I do, so I will let his words speak to all of you (again) on why format distorting cards should be under a microscope. My only change would be to substitute 'might have banned' to 'would have banned'....



I might have banned Goblin Lackey. Obviously Flash was far, far more broken. But the key arguemnt against Flash's legality was not that it was unbeatable, but that it badly distorted the format. Lackey also badly distorts the format. People say that this is okay because Lackey is inherently "fair", but I think this creates a dangerous double standard. While Flash was head and shoulders above everything else in the format, Lackey is still above everything else in the format as far as power level and distortion are concerned, just not to as extreme a degree. I think that if format distortion is a viable argument in favor of Flash's banning, then it is a viable one in favor of Lackey's as well.



Did Wizards make the right move?

Yes, except for not banning Lackey, Goblins should have to play fair (like most everybody else) and either A) pay mana for their spells B) have to wait (Vial, Warchief) or C) distort their deck and/or suffer card disadvantage to accelerate at a ridiculous rate.


What would you have done differently and why?

See above.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck? Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

Absolutely, with a playable card pool as vast as we have, someone will be able to abuse Replenish effectively. If MoMa does get abused, it will probably be hanging off the coattails of Replenish...but you can generate a lot of mana with MoMa & either Sanctum or Cradle & since MoMa allows you to ensure that you are Hellbent, cards like Demonfire have the potential to become very scary. Enchantress is the obvious shell, but which colors? How best to abuse the new additions? What win conditions? The major upside for Enchantress is that one of the previous nightmares for the deck (board sweep of whatever kind, often Deed) can now largely be ignored. The major problem of how to deal with ultra fast combo such as CRET Belcher, IGGy & TES while not hurting the positive matchup the deck has versus decks such as Goblins remains.

[kirdape3]

Flash absolutely deserved banning. It was not only the best combo deck, it was the best control deck in the winning Moreno version (adding Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top was genius). The format devolved into Flash/anti-Flash/Goblins - while that is not necessarily the end of the world in an ideal where the anti-Flash decks were any good, Flash just straight up beat everything.

Mind over Matter was at it's best when it functionally cost 1 or 2 mana because of Tolarian Academy. UUUU2 without Academy is awfully tough to acquire for most decks, and the deck that it's easiest for (High Tide) simply won't play it because by the point that it has six mana, it's either won or lost the game.

Replenish is pretty abusive though. Any card that allows such a serious mana cheat like that to occur is liable to do something wacky (Reanimate and Exhume aren't fair cards at all and they only put one creature into play; Replenish has a couple of different options to straight up win the game when it hits). The question is, is it unfair enough for Legacy? I think that it will be competitive but not crazy.

As for what I would've done differently, I probably would not have left Lion's Eye Diamond legal nor Goblin Lackey. If Wizards is truly looking for a fair format, those two are the next most liable targets. Mana cheats like that are the most abusive things around throughout Magic's history.

Replenish will probably be a viable deck, but I'm not sure how much more ridiculous it will be than existing options. Why would you play a Replenish pure combo when you can play Ill-Gotten Gains? That forces it by necessity into combo-control, but I don't know enough right now to know how good it is.

[Sims]

Flash wasn't even a question in my mind. The Tokyo event that got 50 players and showed a breakdown of 103 Leyline of the Voids (tying Force of Will) across 50 decks out of a possible 200 across 50 decks... That is pretty telling of how defining and warping Flash was. As has already been mentioned, the combination with CounterTop was brilliant and made it the best combo and best control deck in the format.

I, overall, am pleased with what was unbanned. Granted, I feel that Replenish and MoM were two of the most obvious choices for unbanning, but I don't want them to make too much dratic change all at once. There were a couple things I potentially would have done but I would be afraid of too much shift at once. I feel that was one of Flash's biggest problem is that it forced a very massive shift within a very short period instead of marginal shifts in a slightly extended time frame. Perhaps, give us some new toys and then give us a quarter or two of the B/R Cycle to break it, and if we can't then give us some new toys and see how they interact. I'm a fan of having as few cards as possible on the B/R list, but the ones that are on it I want to be there because they are broken and have to be there as opposed to just there because of destructive potential.

Of the things I potentially would have done differently, I would have Empty the Warrens or LED on my watch list. Perhaps not banning one or the other immediately but I do think they both warrant a watchful eye, as has been said, ETW offers storm decks two drastically different win conditions that can be difficult to counter act without bringing a very large amount of hate in from the board or packing it into your maindeck, though argument could be made for Burning Wish in this spot.... LED I think is obvious as to why it should be watched, as a Lotus is powerful, even if it's conditional. Land Tax could probably be taken off the list, as it's slow and fairly conditional, forcing you to run a lot of basics and build your deck around it. At the end of the day, I feel it would be safe because Life from the Loam is strictly superior, in my opinion. Another move I probably would have made is to axe Goblin Lackey....

Now I've been a large proponent of Goblins since work first started to port Vial Goblins from extended to the new Legacy... Hell I even ran it in a lot of local tourneys to good result without Lackey... but the pesky little s.o.b does cause a lot of focus to be put on the first turn, requiring an answer and fast, before the horde overruns you. I don't think Lackey is Goblins biggest strength (that would be Ringleader) but it would take away enough of the explosive punch that they pack and take away the "answer it on turn 1" aspect of the format, and open up aggro a bit, because currently I feel if you're playing pure aggro (or combo-aggro as I kinda feel goblins is) that playing a deck that isn't goblins is probably the wrong choice. Besides, maybe I'm alone in this opinion, but I wouldn't mind the format being a little bit slower and allowing nearly pure-control strategies to not feel completely invalid.

As far as Replenish goes, I think that it could potentially be a strong deck when worked in with a Life from the Loam-shell (giving the deck another potential win condition through PandeBurst along with something along with Seismic Assault) but I am not convinced yet that a combo-replenish deck will pack enough punch to be Tier 1. The card will be helpful in Solitaire in allowing it to bounce back from board sweeping removal, but as deed is underplayed and nearly no one that I know is packing Tranquility effects in their board, I don't think it's impact will be as strong.

[Deep6er]

I figure that Flash ABSOLUTELY needed to go. I'd say that was reasonably apparent. I could've gone for some other cards coming off (namely Frantic Search, God, I'd be so happy) but I completely understand Replenish and Mind over Matter. Mind over Matter I'm not even remotely interested in. Honestly, I'm not terribly interested in Replenish either, but I recognize the potential for the comeback (or creation) of lists focusing on Replenish's usefulness. I think Wizards did a decent enough job and I would have only added Frantic Search because I'm David Gearhart and I have an addiction to blue Instants. Fairly simple overall, I didn't have much to say about this primarily because it doesn't feel like they've really done anything huge, except eradicate the Flash fiasco. The unbanning kind of gave me hope that they would be interested in shaking around some ideas (like Frantic Search) and see where the dice fell. Eh, no loss, just a little disappointed (in the lack of Frantic Search).

[Lukas Preuss]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

I really like the changes. Flash was fun while it lasted but it had to go. It did warp the format at GP Columbus, eventhough there wasn't an optimal build and Future Sight wasn't legal yet. There was a huge and exciting amount of innovation before the GP, and it was great to see the development of such a strong deck, but Flash's time was definitely up. So, yes, Wizards made the right move.



What would you have done differently and why? Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck?

I really liked the unbanning of Replenish and MoM (although I don't really care for MoM since it will most likely have no impact on the format at all). Replenish might be viable. I'm really looking forward to finding out what Replenish will bring to the format.

But there is one thing that I wasn't really pleased with, though:

I know there was a surge from within the Legacy community to unban Land Tax, but once again we didn't do it. Not only is the card incredibly powerful, but the games involving it are agonizing and boring. Any environment where the correct play involves not putting out your first land should be avoided, and with two Moxes available for anyone's use as four-ofs, I'd expect those decks to pop up. If the card's power level alone made it only a borderline case for banning, the oppressive nature of how it affects games pushes it over the edge.
Land Tax should be save to unban, it won't warp the format and it is certainly not overpowered. Land Tax is the one card that most people want to see unbanned for years now. Wizards is aware of this, and they still don't want to unban Land Tax, eventhough they seem to know that it is not that overpowered. Their main reason to keep Land Tax on the banned list is that it is "agonizing and boring". Dear Wizards... why do you think that there is "a surge from the Legacy community to unban Land Tax" if that card only causes games to be "agonizing and boring"? Do you really think Legacy players are that stupid? Obviously there are a whole bunch of players that would enjoy Land Tax if it was unbanned...
Does this explanation mean that we will never see Land Tax unbanned?

[AnwarA101]

Even Wizards couldn't justify keeping Flash around any longer.



...but Flash is so format-defining and environment-warping that it has to go.

A good player piloting a uniquely tuned version of the deck did win the event, which was both good and bad I suppose, but a scan of the cards played and strategies employed over the weekend show that Flash's impact was unhealthy for the long term.



As for Replenish and Mind Over Matter they are fine additions to Legacy. I don't think either of these cards will provide much to the format as they are either narrow or expensive. The safe of unbanning of these cards will hopefully lead to more unbannings in the future.

I'm also glad that they didn't ban Goblin Lackey or Lion's Eye Diamond. These actions would have been preemptive and totally uncalled for. Goblins dominance has long since past. Anyone who needs confirmation of this should really check out the Top8 thread that I maintain here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3996) on the Source. Goblins has so many problems with Combo and its not dealing particularly well with better and better Aggro-Control decks.

Some people will point out that Combo is getting too good and want to ban Lion's Eye Diamond or even Empty the Warrens. All of this talk is premature. None of these decks has taken over Legacy like Flash did in the past month. If they are so good why doesn't everyone play them? I suspect that they have weaknesses that are exploitable and sometimes they lose to their own instability. It remains to be seen if Legacy will turn into a Combo player's dream. I'm glad Wizards realized that hasn't happened yet.

[Obfuscate Freely]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?
Wizards absolutely made the right move. Flash-Hulk was overpowered, and Flash was the correct piece to kill.

There are those who disagree, who say that taking Hulk (and leaving Flash) would have left an interesting deck in Flash-Rector. I believe they are wrong, because Flash would almost certiainly end up broken again, with another creature with a CitP or LP trigger. Wizards would complain that this sort of thing would "limit design space" if it were legal in another format, but in Legacy (they likely can't afford to consider Legacy much when designing new sets), it would actually just be a problem waiting to happen.

In short, leaving Flash around would almost guarantee future bannings being necessary. Thus, it had to go.

I was also very pleased that Wizards did not ban both cards. They have been known to go overkill with bannings before (Affinity), but that was obviously not warranted here.


What would you have done differently and why?
There might be more cards that could come off of the banned list, but I'm in no real hurry to see them. I think its fine for Wizards to take their time.

Forsythe's explanation for leaving Land Tax on the list is the best reasoning for doing so that I've heard yet. It made me realize that I really don't miss the card. I'm basically ambivalent on it's being banned, now.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck? Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?
I was (pleasantly) surprised to see cards come off the banned list, since it shows that Wizards has interest in Legacy beyond just getting everyone to shut up about Flash.

That said, I doubt that either card will have much of an impact. Mind over Matter is awfully expensive, and it takes a lot of setup to get 6 mana's worth of use out of it. Replenish is much more interesting, and you can easily build a powerful deck around it, but that deck will suffer from consistency and resiliency problems. Four-mana sorceries are extremely hard to protect.

It is certainly nice for Enchantress to get Replenish back, but it won't even affect that deck, unless people start playing more enchantment-hate effects. I haven't seen a Tempest of Light in ages.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

I think Wizards got it perfect. They killed the combo that every sane person wanted killed, and they gave us back a couple toys.


What would you have done differently and why?

I do think they should review some of their policies in the future;

A) The policy of no emergency bannings seems more detrimental than helpful.

B) They need to work on coordination between departments so that cleanup work by the rules team doesn't cause damage to tournament formats.


Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

Well I dont think that it'll effect the deck that much, but it gets a tool vs hate like Tempest of Light.

J/K, what are you, high?

There are few cards in few decks that, when top-decked can turn the certainty of death into a smashing victory, and Replenish in Enchantress is one of those cards. It's not just hate, it's your Yawgmoth's Will vs anything packing disruption.

You can of course, sans Replenish, up your threat count to get a good match-up vs those decks, but it requires more situational slots. Holistic Wisdom is very expensive vs black based control with Wasteland and Sinkhole. Maindecking City of Solitude is dead against a lot of different decks, and is useless if you topdeck it after you've had your other threats countered.

[Nightmare]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move? What would you have done differently and why? Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck? Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?
My thoughts, in article form:
http://mtgsalvation.com/624-welcome-back-legacy-the-june-2007-br-changes.html

[Tacosnape]

What's your take on the B/R Announcement? Did Wizards make the right move?

Yes. Legacy has long been advertised by Wizards as a "Casual" format. While I think this couldn't be further from the truth, Legacy is an excellent format for casual players who want to become serious players. While Flash attracted attention, leaving it in the format would drive away both veterans of the format and the newcomers.

Flash also provided more than a match for all of its hate. It's my opinion that single cards that read "Win the Game." shouldn't be equally as fast as Meddling Mage without any acceleration involved.


What would you have done differently and why?

I'd have unbanned Dream Halls. I don't think the fact that it got left banned makes a huge difference in the format, however. I'd also keep an eye on both Empty the Warrens and to a lesser degree, Burning Wish. Combo should be strong, but not so degenerate as to not give players a move.


Do you think that the unbanning of Mind over Matter and Replenish will enable someone to create a relatively new viable or competetive deck? Specifically, what does Replenish's return mean for Enchantress?

I think people will certainly try. I don't anticipate to have to fear Mind Over Matter. For a whopping :2::u::u::u::u:, it's completely shut down by a widely played artifact that costs :1: named Pithing Needle.

I wasn't hugely in favor of the unbanning of Replenish, though, and I think it will make an impact on the format. I think most of the Replenish combo decks will fail, as there are better combo decks that also die to graveyard hate. However, I wouldn't be surprised to see it bump Enchantress up a few notches as it should improve Enchantress's control match, and I wouldn't be shocked to see 4-Color Landstill use it to bring back multiple Standstills and Pernicious Deeds. You also could see a new control deck emerge altogether, which given recent discussions on Control decks, may be what Wizards intended.