[Deck] PandeBurst

[Silthyn]

//Combo:
4x Replenish
4x Saproling Burst
4x Pandemonium

//Search/Discard:
4x Careful Study
4x Brainstorm
4x Mystical Tutor
3x Intuition
4x Attunement

//Protection:
4x Force of Will
3x Swords to Plowshares

//Artifacts:
3x Chrome Mox

//Lands:
4x Tundra
4x Flooded Strand
4x Ancient Tomb
3x Plains
4x Islands


I have not tested this list much, so I can't tell what's good and what's bad.
Comments?

[kicks_422]

4 Force of Will isn't enough to protect Replenish. Splash black for Duress?... Also for Cabal Therapy, which could also make you discard your enchantments.

[Silthyn]

4 Force of Will isn't enough to protect Replenish. Splash black for Duress?... Also for Cabal Therapy, which could also make you discard your enchantments.

I don't like the sound of a third color. But I agree I need more protection. Maybe some other counterspells?

[Cait_Sith]

I am running PandeBurst now, and I prefer Compulsion over Careful Study. It dodges a Chalice at 1, is reusable, doesn't automatically provide card disadvantage. I run 4 each of Pande and Burst and have had some trouble finding them.

I don't like Coliseum because if you have Threshold, but no win, there is a problem here.

I am running:

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
6 [ON] Island
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [U] Tundra
6 [TSP] Plains

// Protection
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will

// Dig and Discard
4 [MR] Thirst for Knowledge
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [TO] Compulsion

// Combo
4 [TSB] Pandemonium
4 [NE] Saproling Burst
4 [UD] Replenish

Some extra protection would be nice, but our choice of Pitch Counter is poor at best. Pact of Negation is tremendously risky, Thwart unplayable, Daze means they need to tap out. My only other thought would be 4 SB Abeyance vs counter heavy decks (since few of them have the brutal fast clock they need to make waiting for 6 mana bad)

[Silthyn]

I find Compulsion too slow. I mean, 6 mana to discard two cards? You have a point about Chalice though, so I'll think about it.

I think I'll put in 1 extra of each enchantment though. What about 1 Chain of Vapor MD to tutor for with mystical?

[Cait_Sith]

Goblins is probably going to dominate again, so what would you use an MD Chain for?

[Silthyn]

Pithing Needle of course :3

[Cait_Sith]

I'd SB some hate, rather than MD it, but that is me (almost no decks run MD Pithing now.)

[Phantom]

I find Compulsion too slow. I mean, 6 mana to discard two cards? You have a point about Chalice though, so I'll think about it.


What about a draw spell like Compulsive Research. Can be used for card advantage, search, or discard and fits nicely into the curve.

[Cait_Sith]

This deck lacks two drop, but is very heavy on 3 drops, so it fits clunkyly into the curve. Also, sorcery speed = bad.

[Silthyn]

Ayep, and with the Research, you can't discard a Pandemonium and a land card, which you often want to do.

[Tinefol]

You're ablo to do so.

[Cait_Sith]

You're ablo to do so.

You are right, that you are able, but when we are running 7-8 discard outlets that are more powerful as far as this deck is concerned, why add in Compulsive? The only time I wanted it was when I wanted to keep 1 extra land for the might Compulsion. But I lost anyway to Md Extirpate.

[Silthyn]

Oh, I've always thought you needed to discard either one land card, or two non-land cards. Isn't Research just plain better than Thirst in that case?

[Cait_Sith]

Hi, Meet Thirst for Knowledge. He is an instant. On average, instant > sorcery. Thank you.

[Silthyn]

Hi, Meet Thirst for Knowledge. He is an instant. On average, instant > sorcery. Thank you.

Me = Didn't think of that ;)

[shteev]

What happens if we're going off for 21 points of damage to the face, and someone shoots one of our creatures with a Swords To Plowshares or Gempalm Incinerator? Will that decrease the amount of damage to non-lethal?

[Silthyn]

What happens if we're going off for 21 points of damage to the face, and someone shoots one of our creatures with a Swords To Plowshares or Gempalm Incinerator? Will that decrease the amount of damage to non-lethal?

Pandemonium deals damage when the creature enters play, and when the opponent are able to kill it, the damage will already be on the stack.

[Cait_Sith]

I think Tolarian Winds deserves some testing... maybe. It is iffy, but being able to cycle 5 cards is nice.

[hugh1130]

a version using gifts as well as intution might be called for

in legacy, we can run 4x regrowth to support a 4x intuition/4x gifts build

[realmlord]

What about Attunement? It not only provides significant discard, it comes back with Replenish. It also makes an Opalescence "transformation" win better if our opponent Needles/Stifles/Suppression Fields the Saproling Burst.

[Cait_Sith]

a version using gifts as well as intution might be called for

in legacy, we can run 4x regrowth to support a 4x intuition/4x gifts build

I tried to use Gifts, but it just doesn't work.

[Silthyn]

What about Attunement? It not only provides significant discard, it comes back with Replenish. It also makes an Opalescence "transformation" win better if our opponent Needles/Stifles/Suppression Fields the Saproling Burst.

That's another deck :3

[Pinder]

I tried to use Gifts, but it just doesn't work.

This is true. I can't think of any Gifts stacks off the top of my head that guarantee PandeBurst in the yard and Replenish in hand. You'd have to have Pandemonium, Saproling Burst, and Replenish in there, as well as presumably a Regrowth or something to get something back if they put it in the yard. In which case they'll just give you Pandemonium and Burst and put Replenish and Regrowth in the yard.

So pretty much you would have to Gifts for things that you don't care where they go, at which point you're probably just better off using Intuition, which is cheaper and just as instant.

But PandeBurst officially dies to Pithing Needle, Crypt, Extirpate, Leyline, etc., etc...do you really think that it's the right shell to properly abuse Replenish?

[Tinefol]

Pinder, well Gifts can be used to get PandeBurst in the grave, but you still have to get Replenish the other way

[Pinder]

Pinder, well Gifts can be used to get PandeBurst in the grave, but you still have to get Replenish the other way

That's why I made the argument that Intuition is probably better than Gifts for that purpose, if only because it's a tad cheaper.

[Silthyn]

What about Breakthrough? For two mana, you draw four cards, keeping the Replenish and discards the rest of the cards (hopefully Pandemonium and Saproling Brust).

[Pale Moon FTW]

But PandeBurst officially dies to Pithing Needle, Crypt, Extirpate, Leyline, etc., etc...do you really think that it's the right shell to properly abuse Replenish?

The problem is that any deck abusing Replenish will be vulnerable to graveyard hate.

[CynicalSquirrel]

This is an incredibly janky idea, but bear with me. Has anyone thought of Tireless Tribe in this deck? He's an answer to turn one Lackey and pretty much any attacking creatures that could give you problems, and of course is a half decent outlet for discarding your enchantments.

I've also been considering a black list with Imp/Tribe along with Duress and Therapy, but I haven't been too pleased with it.

[Mulletus]

OLD SCHOOL REPLENISH Combo!!!!
~~ actually shown to me by mike glow (w/ adjusments)

Combo
4 Saproling Burst
4 Pandemonium
4 Replenish

Draw/graveyard fill
4 Attunement
4 Intuition
4 Careful study
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental note

Land/accel
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Serum Powder
4 delta
4 stand
4 tundra
4 trop
4 volcanic

Now I think this can win on the first turn, but there is no control. It needs refinement. sorry about the caps, but i gotta run. I wanted to keep this a secrete and walk into a tourney with an old combo unbanned.

edit: i posted this somewhere else too, and i hope led works

[outsideangel]

Wait, wut?

LED seems subpar in that deck. The only thing it's really good with is Intuition.

Also you have no way to protect the combo at all, and that's bad.

Mike Glo or no, that deck doesn't look good.

[APriestOfGix]

Pandemonium deals damage when the creature enters play, and when the opponent are able to kill it, the damage will already be on the stack.

NO, NO, NO!!!!!


NO!!!!

ONLY COMBAT DAMAGE USES THE FREAKING STACK, get that in your pea size brains everyone, ONLY COMBAT DAMAGE!!!!!!!!!!

[Xero]

Ah, no. Lots of things use the stack that aren't combat damage.

[Silthyn]

That was... Scary...
Many things uses the stack.

[MattH]

Ah, no. Lots of things use the stack that aren't combat damage.

He clearly meant combat damage vs. other sources of damage, which indeed do not use the stack.

However, if that damage came from a triggered ability (such as Pandemonium's), that ability will use the stack. But that is a different case.

[GreenOne]

Combo
4 Saproling Burst
4 Pandemonium
4 Replenish

Draw/graveyard fill
4 Attunement
4 Intuition
4 Careful study
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental note

Land/accel
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Serum Powder
4 delta
4 stand
4 tundra
4 trop
4 volcanic

Now I think this can win on the first turn

How can this thing win on the first turn?
I mean, other that stupid things you'll never do like:
Hand: land, brainstorm, 2xLED, Sap Burst, Pandemonium, another card.
Play Land, LED; LED, Brainstorm, brake LEDs in resp, hoping to see a replenish in the first 3 cards.

[Cait_Sith]

He clearly meant combat damage vs. other sources of damage, which indeed do not use the stack.

However, if that damage came from a triggered ability (such as Pandemonium's), that ability will use the stack. But that is a different case.

However, damage from Pande is still "locked in" when the ability is triggered, correct?

[Mulletus]

How can this thing win on the first turn?
I mean, other that stupid things you'll never do like:
Hand: land, brainstorm, 2xLED, Sap Burst, Pandemonium, another card.
Play Land, LED; LED, Brainstorm, brake LEDs in resp, hoping to see a replenish in the first 3 cards.

land, replenish, led, x sap burt, x pandemonium (x cant be 0) = land, play led, annonce replenish, pitch the goods when you crack led, win

[Cait_Sith]

land, replenish, led, x sap burt, x pandemonium (x cant be 0) = land, play led, annonce replenish, pitch the goods when you crack led, win

Lose. You can only activate LED whenever you could play an instant. Instants cannot be played during the announcement of spells.

[Mulletus]

you can't cast sorceries with led? I didn't know it was erratad to say you can only cast instants. This is what oracle says it does: Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.

I thought it would work like this: I play land, cast Led, play Replenish filing my graveyard with enchantments from the activation of LeD, if replenish resolves the enchantments return to play.

[MattH]

you can't cast sorceries with led? I didn't know it was erratad to say you can only cast instants. This is what oracle says it does: Sacrifice Lion's Eye Diamond, Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.

I thought it would work like this: I play land, cast Led, play Replenish filing my graveyard with enchantments from the activation of LeD, if replenish resolves the enchantments return to play.
You can use LED mana to pay any type of mana cost, but you cannot activate its ability while announcing a spell, which is what you are trying to do in your example. You can't do this because you can only use LED's mana ability when you could play an instant, and you can't play instants in the middle of announcing a spell.

You have to get your 3W before you break the LED. There is no way to play a spell from your hand with LED's mana*.

*Madness cards are played from the RFG zone.

[Cait_Sith]

Discard your hand: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool. Play this ability only any time you could play an instant.

I thought it would work like this: I play land, cast Led, play Replenish filing my graveyard with enchantments from the activation of LeD, if replenish resolves the enchantments return to play.

You cannot play an instant during the announcement of a spell. LED was errata'd for the sole purpose of PREVENTING it from doing what you are trying to do with it now.

[Hanni]

U/B/w Replenish

Lands (20)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island
4 Ancient Tomb

Creatures (1)
1 Gigapede

Spells (39)
4 Brainstorm
4 Careful Study
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Intuition
4 Attunement
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Replenish
4 Pandemonium
4 Saproling Burst

Sideboard (15)
2 Misdirection
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Massacre
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Pithing Needle

This is the list I've been playtesting on MWS to some decent success. Not sure if I'd want to fit Stifles or Meddling Mages in the SB or not. I've had turn 4 goldfishes with Duress/Force backup very consistently and a few turn 3 kills as well. I really like the build. I was considering trying to fit in 2 City of Traitors for additional accel but I'm not sure what to cut.

The Intuition stack is either Pande/Burst/Gigapede or Replenishx3 97% of the time. The other 3% of the time it grabs FoW or Seal of Cleansing. (NOTE: These percentages are completely backed up by pages and pages of statistical data).

The maindeck has been functioning very well for me. I almost always have discard outlets for the combo pieces and I tend to find Replenish fairly easy with all the draw. I was considering trying to fit Cunning Wish so I could fetch Disenchants, but I don't think it's worth it.

The sideboard is mostly just thrown together. Misdirection comes in vs Deadguy or Red Death style decks. Massacre comes to deal with Meddling Mage. Cabal Therapy is just there cause I dunno, Seal is there to answer Leyline or Needle, Needle is there to answer Crypt. I was thinking Ground Seal could be a good idea but then I'd have to splash green (but I would get access to Krosan Grip so I dunno).

Thoughts?

[Aernil]

I really dunno if it belongs here, but it seems that you all didn't see a (in my opinion) really good opportunity:
If you would stay GW, you would have a more stable manabase.
I don't think of a Enchantress shell, but of a pure combo.
Use something like Utopia sprawl/ Wild growth to power a Serra's Sactum (get it with Crop rotation) and play Greater Good and Saproling Burst.
That lets you dig for 21 cards maximum, discarding 18 (maximum too) getting Burst and some Pandemoniums into the bin.
Enlightened Tutor/Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library/Sterling Grove to search for missing pieces, and Orim's Chant and Abyeance for protection.
I don't know if it's a way to go, but I think GW has all things needed for the combo.

[Silthyn]

I really dunno if it belongs here, but it seems that you all didn't see a (in my opinion) really good opportunity:
If you would stay GW, you would have a more stable manabase.
I don't think of a Enchantress shell, but of a pure combo.
Use something like Utopia sprawl/ Wild growth to power a Serra's Sactum (get it with Crop rotation) and play Greater Good and Saproling Burst.
That lets you dig for 21 cards maximum, discarding 18 (maximum too) getting Burst and some Pandemoniums into the bin.
Enlightened Tutor/Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library/Sterling Grove to search for missing pieces, and Orim's Chant and Abyeance for protection.
I don't know if it's a way to go, but I think GW has all things needed for the combo.

Oh yes, it has everything, except for the card drawing. Sure, Greater Good works, but it costs alot and you need Burst in play. Attunement and Careful study is enough in this deck. Oh, that reminds me, I have to update my list, since Attunement was insane ;)

[Araneida]

GW hasn't got real Disruption. Imo you can't miss Duress and FoW in this kind of deck.

@Hanni: Why do you play Gigapede?
You can't cast him, he is "just" an intuitionable discard outlet.
I would try something like Thirst, but usually you should be able to grab Attunement. Maybe also Squee works well here as a Draw Engine.

Just some random thoughts...

[MattH]

GW hasn't got real Disruption. Imo you can't miss Duress and FoW in this kind of deck.

@Hanni: Why do you play Gigapede?
You can't cast him, he is "just" an intuitionable discard outlet.
I would try something like Thirst, but usually you should be able to grab Attunement. Maybe also Squee works well here as a Draw Engine.

Just some random thoughts...

It's so he can Intuition for Pande, Burst, and Gigapede, and no matter what his opponent chooses, on his next upkeep he can force both combo pieces into the graveyard, thus letting Intuition becomes double-Entomb.

[The_Prince]

I'm wondering if one couldn't kick out B as the thrid coulour and go either UW or UWg for Krosan Grip.

If one were to run Breakthrough or Frantic Search, one could dismiss LD Vault and run Orim's Chant over Duress. What cards does duress stop that Orim's chant doesn't? Especially in the turn in which you would like to go off?

What about Pact of Negation as additional protection for casting replenish?

[jrp]

Frantic Search = Not Legal in Legacy.

If you play Orim's Chant you have to cast it the same turn you are planning to cast Replenish. Duress can be played on earlier turns to clear the way for you to cast Replenish as soon as you get to 4 mana.

So, Duress > Chant, at least in this scenario.

[Aernout]

Why do you run 4 pieces of Saporling Burst and Pandemonium? I think running 2 Gigapedes, 1 Saproling Burst and 1 Pandemonium would be enough. When you draw a compo piece, you just Intuition 2 Gigapedes and the other combo piece. This give you more room for protection and disruption, but makes you a bit more dependent on Intuition. I don't think that matters though, as you are already really dependent on it.

[Juggs]

no mystical tutor? it finds intuition and replenish, btw intuition for gigapede and pandeburst is super sweet! props to who ever came up with using tech that didn't fit in ichorid but seems amazing here, but whats up with attunement? i still don't understand the appeal of that card, in the face of thirst? maybe even breakthrough, i'm tempted to go out on a limb and say careful consideration would be better, some one please let me know about attunemet

[MattH]

no mystical tutor? it finds intuition and replenish, btw intuition for gigapede and pandeburst is super sweet! props to who ever came up with using tech that didn't fit in ichorid but seems amazing here, but whats up with attunement? i still don't understand the appeal of that card, in the face of thirst? maybe even breakthrough, i'm tempted to go out on a limb and say careful consideration would be better, some one please let me know about attunemet
Gigapede is old tech for Intuition - at least a year old, and probably more. I don't remember who came up with it.

Attunement is cool because it moves enchantments from your library to your graveyard, while helping you find Replenish.

Orim's Chant is not as good as Duress in the case where you need to go off and you only have four mana. Or you have five mana but only one white. And so on. This should be elementary. :<

[Silthyn]

My list is a bit outdated, really. The Intuition tech seems really neat, and therefore I think I should just run one of each enchantments, 2 Gigapedes, remove Attunement (since you dont need it anymore) and put in something else.