[Deck] Ichorid

[BeeblesofLife]

I'm considering changing three cards in the SB as an alternate win.
What I am suggesting is using Breakfast's win as an anlternate win in our SB.
We already have a dredge engine so getting the pieces into the grave yard wont be that big of a deal.
The reason I am suggesting this is in case your oppenant has a way to get rid of bridges. This would be brought in inplace of bridges and you can still win on the same turn that you activate it because you can dread return FKZ and still win in similar fashion.
What do you guys think?

[Black-Op]

What is the Titan going to do about 12 ETW tokens, a leathal Tendrils or Belcher?
Platinum Angel will keep you alive in these cases, so you can kill the opponent (next turn would be recommended ofcourse).
I know most combo decks have arti hate, but i don't see why they would board it in after game 1 against ichorid. And if so, the angel still buys you time, cause they would have to direct their resources to getting rid of it instead of killing you on the spot.
I think it's a great sb card, thanks Bane, I hadden't thought of it meself (jet :wink: )!

[Bryant Cook]

If you can reanimate her why not just animate Cephalid and Dredge the rest of your deck? You're bound to win then, making it a win-more.

EDIT: You're just as fast as 12 goblin tokens. If they don't block you win, if they do they've burnt up their resources. I fail to see how this isn't a win/win.

[noobslayer]

My version has been running two Cephalids to finish out the combo. They have been so clutch in goldfishing. It's like flashing back a coliseum with no mana.

[outsideangel]

My version has been running two Cephalids to finish out the combo. They have been so clutch in goldfishing. It's like flashing back a coliseum with no mana.

Usually whenever you Dread Return Sage you win the game. I don't really feel the need to run creatures that aren't Sage, because winning the game is probably better than whatever else they're going to do.

If for whatever reason you're still running the duals over the 5c lands, I guess a Stern Proctor or two in the SB could be a decent dredge-able answer to stuff like Solitary Confinement.

[Bovinious]

I'd rather run a Harmonic Sliver than a Stern Proctor, although you'd be able to cast Proctor more often if that ever came up.

EDIT: Indrik Stomphowler seems much better than Harmonic Sliver actually.

[ForceofWill]

Here I go I finished 3rd (again) at Kevin's 4 berserk tourney. To put together this deck I ended up borrowing 28 cards from 5 different people.

Played this list

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// NAME: Untitled Deck

// Lands
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation

Round 1 played Bane: you can look at his notes (I didn't bounce his leyline because I had a chain in my hand also but nothing to do.

Round 2 burn
game1 I smash him do what I'm suppose to and didn't see mogg fanatic.

game 2 go through half my deck with breakthroughs and coliseums and other draw spells without getting a dredge guy or a dread return target with the creatures to flash it back.

game 3 quad mulligan keep a no land hand of troll breakthrough putrid didn't draw anyland.. die turn 6

round 3 Shane (Watcher) Eternal Gardens
game 1 I remember him playing turn 2 trinisphere and having my ichrods/narcos/zombies beat him down

game 2 I just comboed out and it was over fast

round 4 got paired up to a 3-0 Red Death

game 1 I saw polluted delta then killed him

I board it safe not knowing what hes playing and bring in 1 ancient grudge 1 ray of revelation 2 chain of vapor

we have a long drawn out game I apply early beats therapy him some. trade guys. he removes some bridges. eventually he draws his one out of crypt. and removes like 30 cards. I still have a full hand of cards though and discard a troll at my endstep he drops a shade. I dredge a bridge an ichorid and a black creature and another dredger. he hits me down for 7 with shade. I bring back ichorid and dredge. swing in get a zombie at eot and discard a card for ichorid. he plays jitte and my zombie blocks his ichroid for a while and I play bring ichorid back draw discard black creature make zombie go. for awhile until he gets a jitte then in one turn I play a city of brass putting me to 3 and chain of vapor his shade and swing in putting him to 1 and me with 3 zombies and a narco. He has one draw and has used 3 of his burn spells. He doesn't get it and I win.

round 5 ugr thresh
game 1 he double mulls and I turn 1 therapy him for 2 brainstorm. kill him soon after.

game 2 I combo out through force of will thanks to therapy.

round 6 Angel stax scoops to me

top 8 survival
game 1 I kill him turn 2

game 2 hes stuck at 1 land but I'm doing absolutely nothing but toying with him. just hard casting deep anal and shit like that until I finally just kill him.

top 4 Pete (archlord) with Death and taxes.
game 1 His turn 3 samurai beats my slow hand.

game 2 I therapy him turn 2 for samurai and kill him turn 3.

game 3 we played draw go for 20 turns around turn 10 he plays a samurai I still do nothing and I get beaten to death by his curtain..

3rd/4th match 4c Aggro Matt (Trialbyfire)

he wants to split I'm mad about losing to death and taxes and start acting like a dick (the drugs may have had something to do with this).

game 1 he plays land vial. I go turn 1 win

game 2 I offer him the split 55 me 45 him. He says let me look at my opening hand and decide. He does and says no. turn 1 duress hits my breakthrough. he follows it up with turn 2 chalice for 1. turn 3 he plays a goblin legionaire and when I try to mini combo he removes 2 bridges. he then draws 8 lands in a row and I win.

[Bovinious]

Grats on the finish, although I dont think its wise choice to cut a Cabal Therapy. Was LFTL useful at all beyond dredging for 3? It seems to me that that slot would be much better served as a Thug for dredge 4 and Ichorid food, or in your case Cabal Therapy number 4, but again grats on the finish!

[MattH]

Is this deck playable if you don't own Pithing Needles?

[outsideangel]

Is this deck playable if you don't own Pithing Needles?

Yeah. If you play it smart and don't get terribly unlucky, you can play through Crypt. Ancient Grudge helps against it too.

[Bovinious]

Putrid Imp helps you play through Crypt, as well Chain of Vapor/Ancient Grudge can be good answers to Crypt as well.

[ForceofWill]

@Bovinious as for the list I played I actually only played 1 cephalid sage and 4 cabal therapy. Also the only reason I was playing life from the loam was I couldn't find a 4th thug. I really wanted thug in every given situation during the tourney. You can play through crypt without needles. If you look at my matchup against red death I got crypted for over half my deck and still won.

[Bane of the Living]

Round 1 played Bane: you can look at his notes (I didn't bounce his leyline because I had a chain in my hand also but nothing to do.

You went to eight cards and started using your discard phase, dumping shit into the rfg pile rather than the graveyard. If you really had CoV in your hand your foolish.

Platinum Angel is the shit. Sometimes Sage wont be good because you cant kill your opponent for some reason. Ghostly Prisons, Confinement, whatever.. Angel just says you dont lose. People scooped to it.

[ForceofWill]

Did you see what I was dumping? my hand was terrible but I wasn't going down to 5 when I had a hand with leyline CoV land.

I am def playing 2 sage in my next tourney with the deck although I'm not sure if I will keep the ancestors chosen or switch to platinum angel.

[Bovinious]

I dont really see how Platinum Angel is all that good, your opponent wont scoop to it if they have any sort of sweeper/burn/targetted removal/artifact kill, in fact I cant think of a single deck that doesnt have one of these things.

[Lego]

Isn't this deck more like Bridge from Below/Dread Returns combo than it is Ichorid combo?

Anyway, I have faced a situation twice in the past dozen or so games that I have 3 Narcomoebas in play and no (or 1) Bridge from Belows in the graveyard. What do you do here? Assuming you've run out of ways to draw (Deep Anal, Cephalid Colliseum) outside of Dread Returning Cephalid Sage, do you just wait until the next turn, dredge something and hope to hit a Bridge? The other option is to sac the Narcomoebas, dredge most of the rest of your library, and next turn bring back 3 Ichorids to Dread Return a FKZ for lots of Zombie tokens.

I'm just trying to make sure I'm not missing something obvious :)

[Tacosnape]

With Breakthrough, Deep Analysis, Narcomoeba, and Cephalid Sage all in this deck, and Chain of Vapor in sideboard, what are the thoughts on Force of Will as a sideboard option? You're usually going to lose most of your hand pretty quickly anyway, and opening hand Narcomoebas kind of blow.

[ForceofWill]

I'd run force of will if it could counter turn 0 leylines which is this decks biggest problem. I find that other combo decks (that don't run leyline) are not huge threats to you. You can race them and have therapies. What exactly would you bring in force of wills against?

[Bovinious]

We really dont have enough blue cards to support FoW, especially considering you would almost never want to pitch a Breakthrough or the lone Cephalid Sage. Also Force just doesnt seem like a better answer to anything, what would you need it to stop?

[Turbographics]

Yeah I shouldn't have scooped round 6! But I was hoping you'd take control out of the top 8 because I'd rather see ichorid across the table from me than anything running force and daze.

As far as I could tell from your post, Cabal therapy seemed like the decks MVP card all day. Hitting yourself with it speeds the deck up and later being able to flash it with an ichorid post-combat main seems tight. Also, the early game pressure it applies, especially against control, keeps them on the defense the whole game.

I realized I was going to say exactly what Bovinious said but I do completely agree. LFtL seems like a weak reason to cut a solid card like therapy. Is there no other cut to make?

[ForceofWill]

I didn't cut therapy for life I cut the 4th thug because I couldn't get it. I cut a therapy for a sage because so far I have been finding dread returning sage is almost always gg.

[Valdez]

Has anyone concidered/tested Crippling Fatigue as a SB Option vs. MM or Sutured Ghoul + Breath against multiple Extirpates/Crypts..?

[Tacosnape]

Has anyone concidered/tested Crippling Fatigue as a SB Option vs. MM or Sutured Ghoul + Breath against multiple Extirpates/Crypts..?

That 2 mana would be the problem there. 2 mana is really tricky for us to consistently get.

[Jaynel]

I also support the use of Platinum Angel. It's a big surprise for most decks when they realize they didn't plan on having to deal with artifacts Game 2. You can usually clear out any relevant creature removal (i.e. Swords to Plowshares, one of the few removal spells in the format that can deal with it) before Dread Returning it. It's a 5 turn clock (usually less because you have zombies) and you're untouchable. Also good if you deck yourself. I strongly recommend it as a sideboard option.

So here's my SB:

4 Chalice of the Void - Set at 0, preempts Tormod's Crypt.
3 Chain of Vapor - Standard anti-Leyline weaponry.
3 Reverent Silence - Main reason to run duals + fetches and not rainbow lands.
2 Ray of Revelation - Good off of an Lion's Eye Diamond?
2 Tropical Island - I always loved having lands in the board. -2 Sea, +2 these when siding in Rays and Reverent Silences.
1 Platinum Angel - She's a beauty.

And the maindeck, just for kicks. Pretty standard except for the manabase. Also, if anyone has Bridges from Below for sale, send me a PM.

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [U] Underground Sea
1 [FS] Dakmor Salvage

// Creatures
4 [FS] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FS] Street Wraith
2 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FS] Bridge from Below
3 [TS] Dread Return
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough

However, ever since Gencon I've been wondering: What makes this deck better than Cephalid Breakfast? What do you guys think?

[Bovinious]

I definately wouldnt say Ichorid is better than Breakfast, Breakfast is probably the best deck in the format, but it does have some advantages, such as less vulnerability to counterspells and a greater chance of winning turn 1-2.

[mustang8907]

Ernest Turck, Lion's Eye Diamond
2007 Legacy Championship Top 8
Main Deck

60 cards
7 lands

4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Underground Sea
1 Dakmor Salvage



25 creatures

3 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Cephalid Sage
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Flame-Kin Zealot



28 other spells

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Careful Study
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Lotus Petal
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy



15 sideboard cards

1 Unmask
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tropical Island
1 Wonder
3 Reverent Silence
1 Chalice of the Void


this is the deck that I have been playing with(which its exactly this list because earnest got it from joe george, the same person i talked to to build my list) and it works wonders.
although my sideboard is a little bit different my sideboard kind of looks like this.

4 pithing needle
4 leyline of the void
4 chain of vapor
3 chalice of the void

i always felt that the sideboard earnest used was really bad. i never found the reason for 1 unmask or the 1 tropical witht eh reverent silences when most of the time u dont draw that land which makes 4 cards worthless. i have never tried the wonder but i might try it next week since the tourny i go to has a lot of empty of the warrens.

and as for if this deck is better than breakfast. i couldnt tell ya. they both made top 8 at gencon. and right now i would put necrobridge(thats the real name of the combo since the narcomebas and the bridges are the main combo) over breakfast because the guy who played breakfast had alot of testing before he played it and earnest picked up the deck the day of the tourny and didnt know what bridge's second part of the text said.

oh and also to all of the ppl here who have more than 2 undergrounds and the coluseums. maybe you should just try it. most of the time when i get a first turn or second turn i only need 1 land or a petal. that second mana only helps in a mirror matchup. in which it goes to who ever gets the better draws from your sideboard.

[ForceofWill]

playing 6 land and 3 petal makes it a lot harder to cast chain of vapor/pithing needle. if you have breakthrough in your opener and no discard you would also want to have more land leading to the turn 3 win almost every time (granted this isn't as good as the turn 1 win but it improves consistency which is why I started playing the deck). That seems like it would be a lot less consistent especially since you took out 2 mana sources and made 3 of them one shot deals only to add a spell you need your lands/petal to cast. Also Your playing putrid imp gets a lot worse with that manabase.

[Bovinious]

What I dont understand about the GenCon list, other the the obvious downfalls like 1 Forest and 3 Reverent Silence, 3 Island and a Wonder, is why would you ever want Lotus Petal over a rainbow land? The only time Petal is better...I cant even think of a time to be honest, and it doesnt help you cast SB cards either if you have to play a business spell as well.

[outsideangel]

What I dont understand about the GenCon list, other the the obvious downfalls like 1 Forest and 3 Reverent Silence, 3 Island and a Wonder, is why would you ever want Lotus Petal over a rainbow land? The only time Petal is better...I cant even think of a time to be honest, and it doesnt help you cast SB cards either if you have to play a business spell as well.

It's not better. My guess is that he couldn't find the rainbow lands, hence the awful mana base. I'm almost positive that unless you're running Wonder there is no reason not to run a rainbow land mana base.

Speaking of which, I've been looking at other rainbow lands. I think the best are City + Mine, but is there anything else anybody thinks is any good?

[Bovinious]

I've considered Undiscovered Paradise and Tarnished Citadel, but those are both probably worse than Gemstone Mine. Citadel actually doesnt seem THAT bad, but the life loss you will already be suffering from City and Deep Analysis may make it too costly.

[Jaynel]

Along with manaburn from LED and Cephalid Coliseum. Gemstone Mine and City of Brass seem best.

[Bane of the Living]

In testing Im smashing Breakfast. Your faster than they and you can do silly things like Dread Return a huge Gravetroll that Sutured Ghoul has problems with or get Platinum Angel into play.

Out of the board Leyline hurts them very very badly. They have few ways to get out of it and they cant afford to board in their own against you because of constraining sb space.

I have added a new card to the maindeck. It was worked in as a strange sb option but has since been added main for the ridiculous plays Ive been able to do with it. I dont plan on releasing info to anyone but my team until Epic Dual Land Draft. The only detail I can go into is cutting one copy of Ichorid. OH NOES!

The Gencon list was terrible, please disregard his build and make a copy of mine.

[Jaynel]

Just a random question: during your upkeep, can you put the Ichorid trigger on the stack then dredge (with Coliseum or something) to find black guys to pitch to him?

[Nihil Credo]

Yes.

[outsideangel]

The Gencon list was terrible, please disregard his build and make a copy of mine.

You're so very humble...

Also, Stern Proctor answers Leyline, and they have many ways to tutor for it. Sure, Leyline is strong, in that it makes them blow a tutor and a turn to answer it, but it's not the be-all-end-all of the matchup.

I do think Ichorid should do better against the newer Breakfast lists, running Cabal Therapy over Daze, however. Walking a Breakthrough into Daze can be back-breaking, but if you don't throw it out there, you might not have time before you die. Therapy is substantially less scary.

[Bane of the Living]

You're so very humble...

Also, Stern Proctor answers Leyline, and they have many ways to tutor for it. Sure, Leyline is strong, in that it makes them blow a tutor and a turn to answer it, but it's not the be-all-end-all of the matchup.

I do think Ichorid should do better against the newer Breakfast lists, running Cabal Therapy over Daze, however. Walking a Breakthrough into Daze can be back-breaking, but if you don't throw it out there, you might not have time before you die. Therapy is substantially less scary.

No really just look at the list. Assuming you play Ichorid it would baffle me if you dont also agree. I hear rumors that he couldnt scrap together all the cards needed on time but that might be an excuse for a shooty build. Just so we're all on track with his list here..


1) Underground Sea
This guy is actually going with the Reverant Silences. I think 2 Ray and 4 Chain of Vapor are more than enough to take out the leyline that no ones playing. If he's actually going with RS he needs to retool his manabase to include actual forests. He has only one and it isnt even a Dryad Arbor. No fetches, just a random Trop.

2) Lotus Petal
Lotus Petal is worse than a land always. This isnt a storm combo deck where you need to up your storm count and invest all in one turn. The few lands in the deck are precious. Their most important use is the sb cards. Lotus Petal is awfull with Deep Analysis since you burn up your mana source casting something like Breakthrough or Pimp and your left with nothing to play DA.

I could actually tie 2 and 3 together for the anti synergy with Reverant Silence. If he was running Trops over Petals at least he'd have the chance to cast his RS's.

3) Wonder
There are two islands in the deck. Just two.. I dont need to say anymore.

4) Carefull Study
I dont have a beef with the card itself just the fact he's running additional spells you need mana for when he's playing 3 blue sources less than standard builds. These could just be Street Wraiths at least.

5) No golden mana
He's running PImp and Reverant Silence. Thats an issue right there. He could go with Emerald Charms but he still needs lands that produce three colors of mana that way.

6) Random one ofs
The one of Unmask and Chalice are awfull, they could be relevant one ofs such as Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge, Platinum Angel, Bogardan Hellkite, the list goes on.. Unmask and Chalice need to be in opening hand and have no synergy with the deck.

I dont think Im arrogant in assuming my list is the best. The five color manabase has more than proven its worth. The land count is perfect for casting critical sb spells. To each his own as far as personal strategy. If you have something up your sleeve to fit in your build go for it, thats what this games about. However Ive provided the most efficient shell for Ichorid to work from. My results with the deck are..

4-0-2
4-0-2
4-2
4-2
5-1

I havent been close to a losing record with the deck. It plays very unfair compared to other legacy decks. It makes the opponent the control player at all times. Your faster than almost any deck in the format and your resistant to counterspells and creature removal. Aggro combo has always been the most powerfull combination of archetypes since you have an aggro default win when combo fails. Think Skullclamp Affinity or Food Chain goblins.

Of course CB has Stern Proctor for Leyline but it forces them into a tight situation. Rather than tutor for their first or second combo pieces they need to find the proctor. Leyline coupled with your insanely fast clock is pretty bad for them. Do you think CB can tutor for proctor and play him and combo off before the zombies swarm them?

Aether Vial isnt good against Ichorid like it is against control decks, its slow and often wastes your turn. My team actually came up with the boarding strategy for goblins which includes removing Vials for games 2-3.

CB's only threat is Force of Will and a possible turn two combo. That sounds like alot to those unexperienced with the matchup but when you factor your own speed and your Leylines it makes things comfortable for you. They dont really have ways to remove your bridges. Their creatures cant sac themselves and they dont play removal. Their only hope is to block with a Nomad and let it die. This is slim since its a combo piece they wont want to lose. Goyf is generally to large to die.

[Kronicler]

Hey Bane, could you post your list minus sekrit teks right now? I can't seem to find it in the last 6 pages and am very interested in it considering that you think it is close to perfect.

Kronicler

[Bane of the Living]

Hey Bane, could you post your list minus sekrit teks right now? I can't seem to find it in the last 6 pages and am very interested in it considering that you think it is close to perfect.

Kronicler

Why not then I dont have to type it to 5 people a day.

4 Coliseum
4 CoB
4 Gemstone
4 LED

4 Breakthrough
3 DA

3 Ichorid
4 Bridge
3 Dread
1 FKZ
1 Sage

3 PImp
4 Meoba
4 Troll
4 Stinky
3 Thug

4 Therapy
3 ???

Thats the maindeck.

1 Platinum
2 Ray of Rev
4 Chain
4 Needle
4 LotV

Thats the board.

[Silverdragon]

Secret Tech that warrants cutting an Ichorid could be Street Wraith but I am sure you didn't have Street Wraith in your board before as a "strange sb option".
One with Nothing comes to mind as additional LED's but again why would you play this in your board before?
Another idea I have is Dryad Arbor but it seems strange as a 3-of. (Maybe that's just me and my affinity for symetry)

[Bane of the Living]

Secret Tech that warrants cutting an Ichorid could be Street Wraith but I am sure you didn't have Street Wraith in your board before as a "strange sb option".
One with Nothing comes to mind as additional LED's but again why would you play this in your board before?
Another idea I have is Dryad Arbor but it seems strange as a 3-of. (Maybe that's just me and my affinity for symetry)

The cut to 3 Ichorids is freaky I admit. I dont think I can pull this off and be happy with it unless I was running Leyline to assure Bridge stays around. I might go to two mystery cards and back to 4 Ichy.

EDIT


I've picked it up just a few days ago so i didn't play it a lot yet,but i would like to know the general plan against ***** and landstill decks.

Im getting all kinds of emails so rather than answer some of them twice Ill do so here.

Landstill
First off, go into both of these matchups confidant, theyre great for you.

Landstill is one matchup where taking a mulligan is not so important. Infact you could mulligan to more busted hands but often shouldnt since going to eight cards and using the discard phase is tech against them. There's no way Landstill can put a clock on you that will ruin this strategy. They have two cards you need to be concerned with. One is Force of Will obviously. Always name it with therapy to rid yourself of the only way to stop comboing.

Engineered Explosive is the other card you dont want to see since it can stop you from winning in one turn. Thats pretty much all its good at however. I dont even know what else to add aside from the board strategy. The matchup is nearly a bye for you.

Ill usually side out the Flamekin Zealot, one Ichorid (in my four Ichy build) and one Dread return. Leaving myself the option to make a big troll. In come Pithing Needle. The only things you care about are Mishras Factory nurfing your bridges and Explosives/Deed.

Remember that activating Cephalid Coliseum is huge when attempting a spelless game since it cant be countered. Most builds of Landstill dont even contain yard hate. Laughable.

Thresh
This is where Therapy shines. You usually want to name Tarmagoyf with your therapies. Hes their threat against you. Force of Will is problematic but you have the discard phase and you can flashback therapies to force key spells such as DA and Dread.

Red Thresh can be a bit tricky since they could be running clasm main or sb. Just dont play foolishly and try to therapy it before leaving 10 tokens on the table. Red Thresh has no answer to a 15/15 troll. With White Thresh your strategy only changes to compensate for Swords. Therapy it if your going for Ichorid beats rather than zombie rush.

Against either version sb out your FKZ since you dont need the uberfast win. Attrition is king. Against Red thresh leave Dread Return for Troll killz but against White take it out. If they know what they're doing they will name Dread Return with Meddling Mage. You not only (usually) nullify MM with this tactic but you keep yourself from eating hot Swords to Plowshares and keep it as a mediocre card for them.

Goyf is really the only card to give a shit about it. The only way you can really lose is by Dredging awfull or seeing goyfs turns 2 and 3.

Oh and when you sb in Leyline the thresh matchup becomes a joke.

Do people want any strategy outline for other matchups?? I think Ive played against mostly everything at this point.

[Nihil Credo]

I was going to guess at old friends Ashen Ghoul and/or Nether Shadow, but they don't seem really capable of enabling "ridiculous plays", and the Ghoul is tricky to activate with only eight black mana producers. Then again, they're both perfect candidates for cutting an Ichorid.

Castable flashback cards seem Acorn Harvest (2/3 of a Dread Return for two mana), Flash of Defiance (meh), Folk Medicine (pointless), Traitor's Clutch (huge unblockable Troll?).

As for interesting reanimation targets, there are a ton of those (from Caller of the Claw to Karmic Guide, from Sun Quan, Lord of Wu to Angel of Despair), but the fact that you ran it as a 3-of pretty much precludes that.

Just throwing something out. Guessing at mystery cards is always fun :)

[Bovinious]

This "sekret tehcs" crap is really getting annoying lol, no offense or anything but I can only assume the tech isnt very good if it hasnt already been mentioned in this thread or thought of by anyone else, Id love to be to proven wrong though.

[Adan]

Yeah, and those secret techs are not even good.

Yesterday I played on a small tournament with 12 people and went 3rd with a 3-1 record, losing zu Slivers (by the way, it's the 6th tournament in a row where I was tormented by Slivers and always just went X-1 -.-).

I can't help it, but I won't play Ichorid at the German Legacy Championship due to the lack of consitency.

Against Slivers I lost 2-1 because in the 3rd game, I dredged about 30 cards and didn't see any Moebas or Bridges. And I didn't saw that Darkheart Sliver coming...(he played a small Black Splash for Hibernation Sliver afaik).

That was unlucky.

But I annihilated the other 3 opponents Life, Enchantress (random build and random scrub piloting) and Goblins.
Life fucked me g2 because he had his combo together within 3 turns and I kept a slow hand. g3 I took my revenge by 1st turn killing him.

Ah, and about the secret techs: They are stupid. Some opponents won't board out Swords to Plowshares since they can disrupt a littlebit with them (like swording a Narcomoeba when you dredged a 2nd one and the trigger is on the stack -> no tokens).

So Platinum Angel is only good when facing Combo, but a lots of combodecks have outs against him (Iggy pop maybe not, but IGGy Pop could also just mulligan to Ley-Line, autowinning g1).

Somehow I got 2 different feelings. It's the best Ichorid build ever and it can be fast and explosive, but sometimes also very very inconsistent.

I think I should better shuffle my deck properly...

[Muradin]

I've been playing Ichorid in our local tournament yesterday. There were 16 people, so 4 rounds of swiss. My build was pretty standard(with rainbow lands), but I couldn't find a Platinum Angel in time.

My first game was against Counter slivers.

Game 1 I killed him turn 3 without any defense except him playing out some useless 2/2 slivers.

Game 2 he explosived away a bunch of zombies and the got taken down by ichorids and a 14/14 GGT.

My next match was against goblins.

Game 1 I didn't go for the eot discard plan because I knew what he was playing and thought this would be much too slow against goblins.
To say it short: I mulled to oblivion and got killed turn 4 .

Game 2 I second round killed him .

Game 3 was very very close. I got first turn Pimp, he got Lackey.
I discarded a Stinkweed Imp eot and dredged it getting an ichorid. Next turn he attacked with his lackey and I blocked with stinky, getting treshoold after damage on stack. He still got a mogg fanatic this turn.
Then the shit happened: I dredge the troll and got all 4 bridges in my grave with this one dredge. He removes all four and I fail to kill him with ichorids.

Round 3 was against Aggro-Loam.

To make it short: He did nothing both games and after boarding it became even nastier for him with the leylines.

Round 4 was against red *****.

I was on the draw and went for the eot discard. After dredging the first time I had already 3 bridges in my GY. On turn 3 though he had two 6/7 goyfs, but in each of my upkeeps I reanimated an ichorid to get 3 tokens eot. He attacked each turn and after some more dredges the token became too many and he lost.

In general the deck played out much smoother than I expected, but I had some problems with the Sideboard.
I had no clue what to take out in those matchups and so I sideboarded very random. For example against goblins 4 leylines came in and I took out:
1 ichorid, 1 golgari thug, 1 dread returns, 1 cabal therapy.
Please could someone who is good with the deck(probably bane) post how to sideboard against the following decks:

Goblins, Hannifish with Counterbalance, Aggro-Loam(kind of Terrageddon without confinement)

[thejack]

Could anyone tell me what his early gameplan is? Do you try to go up to 2 lands before breaking into LED/breakthrough or do you go straight forward as soon as possible?

[Jaynel]

It depends. If you have a sick hand like LED, Breakthrough, 4 Dredgers, Cephalid Coliseum, the obvious play is to just go nuts on turn one. Play land, LED, Breakthrough popping LED in response, DREDGE x4 and most likely win.

Some decks that have a really slow clock (Survival or random bad aggro) you can slowplay, hit 2+ lands and then play out the deck after you have more options.

It also depends on what deck you're playing against. On the draw against Threshold, you might just want to wait until your discard phase and drop a dredge guy and hope to hit Ichorids/uncounterable threats.

[Tacosnape]

I don't know if it's the "Secret Tech" or not, but Brainstorm offers a lot of interesting possibilities, ranging from loading your Narcomoebas back on top of your library to allowing a triple dredge and getting a pair of GGT's out of your hand and back atop your library for future dredging.

[Bane of the Living]

This deck can occasionally dredge 30 cards without seeing a meoba or something like bridge. It just happens. Its the price you pay when welding such a powerfull deck. Look at the example of Muridans game against thresh, sometimes you'll get the bad luck returned to you five fold.

I have no problem losing one out of ten games to myself when the other nine are insanely quick unstoppable wins. The deck may have problems with things like wicked random Leylines or sometimes gobs but look at all the byes the deck has.

Id keep practicing if you feel like the deck is inconsistant. Sometimes you get unluckey but other times you just need experience.

I posted a sideboarding strategy a couple pages back.

[outsideangel]

Why is everyone running so many lands? I've been absolutely fine with just 10. Dredging lands into the yard is dead, and often (like against Landstill or Thresh) you don't even make lands drops (as to stay at max hand size to be able to discard EoT).

Has anyone else tested fewer lands? If not, you should try it.

[Bane of the Living]

I like having eight chances to draw a rainbow land for my sbing options and 12 lands to reliably cast anything out of the board such as Needles and CoV. Sideboarding lands is for fools. I have gone to 3 Gemstones and I felt like I missed the fourth. To each his own. Im not lucky enough to have one in every opener.

[diffy]

Why is everyone running so many lands? I've been absolutely fine with just 10. Dredging lands into the yard is dead, and often (like against Landstill or Thresh) you don't even make lands drops (as to stay at max hand size to be able to discard EoT).

Has anyone else tested fewer lands? If not, you should try it.


I was running 9 (4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Gemstone Mine, 1 City of Brass) for a while too and I was never hapy staring at that Putrid Imp in my hand that I couldn't cast because of not having that Land in my opening hand (which is where you have to have the Lands because you usually draw a grand maximum of 1-2 [non dredged] Cards.
Also, You wouldn't want to totally relly on Lion's Eye Diamond to play your Deep Analysises.
In conclusion, I always felt that running 12 lands actually speeded the deck up quite a bit because it's not so reliant on the 'one dredge per turn' anymore.

As for the Handsize/EoT discard plan... this is why I always chose to draw against a random opponent.

[Bane of the Living]

Goblins, Hannifish with Counterbalance, Aggro-Loam(kind of Terrageddon without confinement)

Against goblins you really dont want Therapy as much as other matchups so I cut 3-4 of them. Ill also cut maybe one copy of Dread Return since its only good with sage and fkz. Making a large troll is bad against hordes of blockers.

Hannifish I treat the same as Thresh but you'll usually find yourself relying on zombie tokens and large trolls moreso than Ichorids. Attacking into Mother of Runes blows so just reanimate Ichy's when their EoT death will create lots of zombies to strick all at once or to combo with Dread Return. If you only have one bridge its usually fine to trade it with their defense since you'll often dredge into more. Counterbalance can really only stop Cabal Therapy. Luckily you can still cast it and sac a guy to make zombies. Deep Analysis and Dread Return cost too much to balance and Breakthrough can be played for the appropriate cost if you attempt a Therapy first. If they have a one drop and no way to manipulate again you can almost always cast Breathrough for :1::u:

Aggro Loam is easy enough. They have mediocre beats that cant race you and little to no disruption for you. They're disruption falls under the scorched earch tactics where they may need to bolt their own creature or Wasteland their own Factories just to knock the Bridges out. Take advantage of these moments and just plan to seek alternate routes of victory. Siesmic Assault is insanely bad for you if it resolves but no current Loam decks pack shit like Tinder Wall to power it out early enough. Just be mindfull and dont assume you can start with your discard phase when you expect Assault. If shit hits the fan and it does resolve your only hope is a very large troll, which is alot of hope might I add. After sbing you have Leyline and they often have nothing for you. If they do its nothing compared to they way leyline devestates them. Its nearly impossible for them to Burning Wish for a way to take it down and them put pressure on you.

[Bovinious]

I like being able to flashback DA or activate Coliseum more often when I dont draw LED, and it makes it easier to cast SB cards as previously stated. Im sure the deck would run pretty well on 10-11 lands but I prefer 12.

[Tacosnape]

I actually run 13 lands as a strictly mathematical decision: 4 City, 4 Gemstone, 4 Coliseum, and 1 Undiscovered Paradise.

The reasons for running a slightly high land count are many:

1. You can't consistently cast anything that doesn't cost :u:, :1:, or :0: without at least eight rainbow lands. I prefer 9, and I'm experimenting with 10 and only 3 Cephalid Coliseums. Things you might want to cast that can't be done without a rainbow land include Putrid Imp, Cabal Therapy, Flashbacked Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation, and Emerald Charm.

2. You have several tricks that involve having a total of two mana. These include Deep Analysis Flashback, activating a Cephalid Coliseum, hardcasting Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation, or casting Breakthrough for a number higher than zero. Therefore it's not a terrible thing to hit 2 land in your opening hand.

3. If you aren't cutting dredgers or graveyard business spells for land, then it isn't relevant in the slightest that lands are dead in your graveyard.

4. As an age-old rule of magic, better slightly too much land than slightly not enough.

EDIT: Also, why in God's name would you not want Therapy against Goblins? It's a fantastic hardcast or early flashback against Mogg Fanatic and/or Tormod's Crypt.

[Nihil Credo]

EDIT: Also, why in God's name would you not want Therapy against Goblins? It's a fantastic hardcast or early flashback against Mogg Fanatic and/or Tormod's Crypt.
Those cards (the only ones you really care about) both get cast as soon as the opponent draws them. Therapy won't get rid of them, unless you're on the play and you spend your first turn playing the sorcery and you call the right one of the two. And the flashback will still be nearly useless - at most it will hit an Incinerator, or a Matron.

[Bane of the Living]

It still makes me spew ice tea out my face when I read that Mogg Fanatic is gg. Just keep thinking that guys. I have no quams with you dropping your Fanatics before Lackeys..

[Bovinious]

Ive heard many people say this and have thought about it myself, but does everyone think it is probably best to choose to draw first with this deck if you win the die roll? Intuitively I always choose to play, even though I like it much better to be able to discard EOT turn one or to use LED --> threshed Coliseum turn 1. I feel like I'm choosing to play first just so my opponent doesnt get to be on the play, which actually doesnt seem so strong as the chance that I'll draw a busted hand then lose before I get a turn is slim. If I'm on the play and do nothing, they get to draw a card on their turn, which basically makes it like theyre on the play AND got to draw a card, which seems bad for me. I realize whether you want to play/draw/its irrelevent depends on the hand you pull, but I'm wondering what everyone else chooses blindly.

[Tacosnape]

Ive heard many people say this and have thought about it myself, but does everyone think it is probably best to choose to draw first with this deck if you win the die roll? Intuitively I always choose to play, even though I like it much better to be able to discard EOT turn one or to use LED --> threshed Coliseum turn 1. I feel like I'm choosing to play first just so my opponent doesnt get to be on the play, which actually doesnt seem so strong as the chance that I'll draw a busted hand then lose before I get a turn is slim. If I'm on the play and do nothing, they get to draw a card on their turn, which basically makes it like theyre on the play AND got to draw a card, which seems bad for me. I realize whether you want to play/draw/its irrelevent depends on the hand you pull, but I'm wondering what everyone else chooses blindly.

I would say no. I would play first against a blind deck for two reasons:

1. Against other combo, I want to gamble on having the fast explosive draw before they do.
2. Duress.

That said, there are many decks which I would choose to draw on if the match wasn't blind, which many aren't.

Also, as far as the Coliseum/LED opener goes? Just play Coliseum, LED, pass. Then crack the LED during your upkeep next turn. Use your normal draw step to dredge something in your graveyard (Your mana from the upkeep carries over into your draw step), and then use the Coliseum during your draw step. It's a little less glamorous than the Turn one Led/Coliseum/Unzip/Thud opener you get when on the draw, but it still gives your opponent the same number of turns.

[Bovinious]

@ Tacosnape:

I pretty much agree with you, I always choose to play just so my opponent cant, and your right getting my LED Duress'd away would suck. I was just wondering about this because I've seen multiple people say they choose to draw first with this deck and was wondering if that was actually a popular/correct decision.

[outsideangel]

If you know what you're playing against, then it can be correct. Against Threshold for example, I'd probably draw. Same for Landstill. Against countermagic, your plan is draw, eot discard, dredge, eot discard, etc. so if you know what you're opponent is playing, it can be correct to opt to be on the draw.

[BreathWeapon]

@ Tacosnape:

I pretty much agree with you, I always choose to play just so my opponent cant, and your right getting my LED Duress'd away would suck. I was just wondering about this because I've seen multiple people say they choose to draw first with this deck and was wondering if that was actually a popular/correct decision.

It's a calculated risk, drawing creates Threshold for Coliseum, collects information for Therapy and lets the deck discard/dredge immediately, but you open yourself up to either a turn 1 loss, Stifle and Daze, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void or Duress and Cabal Therapy respectively. I think you want to play draw go against aggro and control, can play draw go against combo (Force of Will is in my SB to insure that I win the match up tho') and you really have to judge whether or not you want to play draw go against aggro-control for yourself, since it brings up to 8 additional counters into consideration.

It could just be a hold over from all of the people who played Manaless Ichorid in Classic tho'. If you find yourself winning less against Threshold on the draw then on the play, it definitely isn't worth drawing. Against everything else, I think your pretty much safe either way.

[Tacosnape]

I think trying to draw first against Threshold is risky. Granted, you can get LED/Coliseum and go nuts, or just draw and discard a troll, but going first, all you have to worry about is Force of Will, which is enough of a threat in itself. Going second, now you're factoring Daze into the equation.

Your LED might resolve against Daze if you have a land, but Breakthrough won't unless you pass priority without using the diamond (If you crack the Diamond, they'll Daze the Breakthrough and you're hurting.)

Also, if you go Cephalid Coliseum, LED on the draw, A good Threshold player will, depending on his hand, Daze the Lion's Eye Diamond anyway, so you can't do the LED/Coliseum trick that turn. Then they'll turn around and Needle it. Of course, if they run Stifle, they'll just Stifle the Coliseum.

Going first, they only have one card you have to try to factor into the equation: Force of Will.

Just for an example, the very first game I went second against Threshold, I kept a hand of the following:

Cabal Therapy
City of Brass
Stinkweed Imp
Stinkweed Imp
Lion's Eye Diamond
Deep Analysis
Ichorid

On the draw, that's a decent hand against Threshold. You can go City of Brass, Therapy for Force. Depending on their hand, you can then follow with LED / Deep Analysis / Dredgers McDredginton. If you catch a Narcomoeba here, you can nail them with another Therapy if the first revealed anything relevant to hit. Otherwise, you're in decent shape.

[MattH]

Your LED might resolve against Daze if you have a land, but Breakthrough won't unless you pass priority without using the diamond (If you crack the Diamond, they'll Daze the Breakthrough and you're hurting.)

If you crack the LED, can't you just pay for the Daze?

[Jaynel]

Even if they do Daze after you pass priority, you can pop LED and pay with 1 of the 3 mana. You'll also have your hand in the yard when Breakthrough resolves so you can dredge then Deep Analysis.

I think the only thing really worth worrying about is Force. You can play around Daze well enough, I think.

[Adan]

Well, you have to crack the Diamond before you pass the priority.

And the oracle text of LED says that the ability is played like an instant.

So, if your opponent has got some brains, he can indeed daze Brakthrough.

Because the Stack then looks like this:

Breakthough, LED Ability on top, then you pass priotity, Daze targeting Breakthrough.

Daze resolves, breakthrough is counteres, LED Ability resolves, and the you will get your Mana.

I hope I'm right this time...

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Because the Stack then looks like this:

Breakthough, LED Ability on top, then you pass priotity, Daze targeting Breakthrough.

Daze resolves, breakthrough is counteres, LED Ability resolves, and the you will get your Mana.

I hope I'm right this time...

No, it's not right, LED's ability is a manaability. You'll get the mana and can pay the 1 for Daze.

@Topic: Here is my current decklist:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [VI] Emerald Charm (or maybe Wax/Wane)

I don't know, if the 2 Sages are good, but I'm pretty happy with this version.

PS.: This is my first post in this forum so I would like to say "Hi" to all ;).

[Illissius]

No, LED's activation is still a mana ability and doesn't use the stack. You can only play it when you could play an instant, but it isn't one itself. Specifically, you can't use it while you're playing a spell, to prevent you from using it to play a card from your hand.

As an aside, it's odd how the printed text says exactly the opposite, "play this ability as a mana source". I'm pretty sure this is because Fifth Edition rules worked differently (so under 5E one aspect of it was assumed and the other had to be clarified, while under 6E they're reversed), but I don't know the specifics.

[gnurbel2000]

Well, you have to crack the Diamond before you pass the priority.

And the oracle text of LED says that the ability is played like an instant.

So, if your opponent has got some brains, he can indeed daze Brakthrough.

Because the Stack then looks like this:

Breakthough, LED Ability on top, then you pass priotity, Daze targeting Breakthrough.

Daze resolves, breakthrough is counteres, LED Ability resolves, and the you will get your Mana.

I hope I'm right this time...

Lion's Eye Diamonds ability works similar to split second.
You play it like an instant, but your opponent can't react on it, as long as it didn't resolve.

[Adan]

I just looked at Crystalkeep. Yes, I was wrong. But you still can't play the ability when you passed priority.

[outsideangel]

No, LED's activation is still a mana ability and doesn't use the stack. You can only play it when you could play an instant, but it isn't one itself. Specifically, you can't use it while you're playing a spell, to prevent you from using it to play a card from your hand.

As an aside, it's odd how the printed text says exactly the opposite, "play this ability as a mana source". I'm pretty sure this is because Fifth Edition rules worked differently (so under 5E one aspect of it was assumed and the other had to be clarified, while under 6E they're reversed), but I don't know the specifics.

I believe it's because "mana source" is not a card type any more. Dark Ritual, being a classic example, can be found as a mana source, an interrupt, and most recently as an instant. Isn't it just assumed now that any ability that makes mana is a mana source?

[Tacosnape]

Eh, I was tired when I made that post. LED's ability is a mana ability indeed, meaning you can play around Daze effectively.

The "Play only any time you could play an instant" clause is designed to keep you from announcing a spell, then using LED to pay for the cost of it.

[APriestOfGix]

Correct.

Lion's Eye Diamond is indeed a manasource.

It acts just like a mana source, in that it does not use the stack, and can't be responded to.

However, in eratta, it was changed so that unlike ALL other mana sources, this can only be played when you can play an instant.

This is because the original purpose of the card, before 6th was that it could ONLY be used to play abilities of cards already on the table, else it would be a Black Lotus. When the new rules came, they found a loop hole to the original printing, and playing it as mana source let you play 1 spell with it. Well 1 spell (yawgs will anyone?) was sometimes all you needed, so that eratted it to play when you can play an instant.

Of course people started running all their restricted cards sideboard, and ran 4 Burning wish, to now have 4 copies of Time Walk, Yawgs Will, and other restricted sourceries, for the extra cost of 1R. Using the LED to pay for the tutored card, made you able to play 4 Yawgs will, in a deck for only 1R each. Lion's and Burning both quickly got the Restriction, but now we have the same thing here in Legacy, (look at TES)

[Illissius]

I believe it's because "mana source" is not a card type any more. Dark Ritual, being a classic example, can be found as a mana source, an interrupt, and most recently as an instant. Isn't it just assumed now that any ability that makes mana is a mana source?

It is, which is why the current (post-6th) wording -- "play this ability only any time you could play an instant" -- makes sense. What I don't know is how the original wording of "play this ability as a mana source" made sense under 5E rules, because I don't know what the 5E rules were. (e.g. why being a mana source wasn't already implied, and why they didn't have to specify the instant speed restriction)

[Bovinious]

The instant speed restriction didnt have to be specified under pre-6th Edition rules because pre-6th you couldnt say "Ill announce the casting of X, and sacrifice LED to pay for it". Once 6th edition rules came out, WOTC felt they needed to preserve the original functionality of the card and issue erratum. I'm not sure why the printed version clarifies its a mana source, but probably to stress that it can (or COULD) be played anytime, and couldnt be countered or responded to.

[MattH]

The instant speed restriction didnt have to be specified under pre-6th Edition rules because pre-6th you couldnt say "Ill announce the casting of X, and sacrifice LED to pay for it". Once 6th edition rules came out, WOTC felt they needed to preserve the original functionality of the card and issue erratum. I'm not sure why the printed version clarifies its a mana source, but probably to stress that it can (or COULD) be played anytime, and couldnt be countered or responded to.

Under 5th edition rules, you had to have the mana in your mana pool before playing a spell - you couldn't activate mana abilities during announcement. So LED worked there (though the tutor trick still worked - there were just a lot fewer tutors back then; pretty much just Demonic Tutor and Demonic Consultation).

The default rule for activated abilities was (and still is) to be playable at instant speed unless otherwise stated, which is why the printed version lists the ability as a mana source (which was at the time supposed to be the fastest possible action - faster than interrupts, and thus uncounterable. This meant that for a brief period it was productive to play a Dark Ritual with a Nether Void out, because the Ritual, as a mana source, couldn't be countered by NV's triggered ability).

[Kronicler]

Of course people started running all their restricted cards sideboard, and ran 4 Burning wish, to now have 4 copies of Time Walk, Yawgs Will, and other restricted sourceries, for the extra cost of 1R. Using the LED to pay for the tutored card, made you able to play 4 Yawgs will, in a deck for only 1R each. Lion's and Burning both quickly got the Restriction, but now we have the same thing here in Legacy, (look at TES)

Except we don't have any Time Walks or Yawgs Will or most of the other restricted socercies to tutor for.... so Burning Wish + LED isn't anywhere near as broken as it was in vintage.

Kronicler

[APriestOfGix]

Except we don't have any Time Walks or Yawgs Will or most of the other restricted socercies to tutor for.... so Burning Wish + LED isn't anywhere near as broken as it was in vintage.

Kronicler

well duh silly...

We do have Baby Yawgs, and Draw 7's though...

I'm just saying thats what TES was inspired by, Long.dec

[Disagree]

Went to a mox jet / bezerk tournament this saturday this was the list I was playing.

4x GGT
3x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed
4x Putrid imp
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
4x LED
4x Ichorid
3x Dread Return
1x Cephalid Sage
1x FKZ
4x Breakthrough
4x Deep Analysis
4x Underground Sea
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum
SB
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x Blazing Archon
3x FoW
2x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void

There were 3 goblin players 3 ichorid players (counting myself) a Cret belcher, RG Stax, No-Stick w/ eratic drako, WU Fish, S Top combo, WUG Threshold, BW (sorta pikula), Burn, BU Aggro Control, and a WBG Survival.

Round 1 Goblins (2-1)
game 1 he had a god draw and owned me.
game 2 & 3 i won turn 1-2 he didnt have a chance.

Round 2 BU Aggro (2-1)
Game 1 I win turn 3 combo.
Game 2 He starts with a crypt and play - I play putrid imp t1 and follow it up with a breakthrough > discarding my ggt/thug to imp he crypts in response to discard I draw 4 and discard ichorid and some other dredgers and he crypts again next turn > I draw dead while he rips me apart.
Game 3 - i win turn 3.

round 3-4 ID to top 8

top 8 -
Round 5 Black white pikula
Win game 1 going off turn 2.
Win game 2 turn 4 (could of won a turn earlier just frogot to do something ><)

Round 6 - Goblins
Game 1 - turn 1 lackey > kikijiki next turn double lackey matron into sharpshooter he removes 2 of my bridges on my first attempt to combo off I go off again next turn with 2 bridge but cant make enough zombies to get through - left him at 5.

Game 2(boarded in Blazing archon) - I destroy his hand with therapy > putrid > therapy > leaving him w/ a vial and top decking.. I play another putrid imp and try to get dredge going > he crypts and plays a shooter kills imp > I get another imp / thug off the top (i have 3 mana) and wait 2 turns trying to find a way to get threshold and he top decks SGC(plays w/ vial) and kills me..

I could of won game 2 concidering I had the mana to drop thug / and then force him to either block it or kill it which would of given putrid/cephalid thresh.. would of been GG.. (was just to tired and was thinking to hard about not letting my third imp die ><)

btw- threshold won the mox, grats Woodrow.




Alright, anyways I really like the deck but goblins seems to be a pretty hard matchup from the play testing ive done against them. Also from what Ive seen sideboarding is really hard, can anyone help me out with what to take out etc?.. and btw my actual sideboard was missing cards and had alot of filler stuff.. archon would of been wonder FoW/truth would of been leyline and -2 chalice +2 needle.

[Tacosnape]

What do people think about Chrome Mox in this deck?

I continuously find myself stuck at one mana and wanting two to chain into multiple Deep Analyses (And Dakmor Salvage is very slow at solving this problem and thereby sucks), and there's always something moderately useless in my opening hand.

Is it too risky that the Mox can be countered or destroyed?

[Jaynel]

I don't think Chrome Mox is such a good idea. What cards would you want to pitch to it? I can think of one: Narcomoeba. Everything else you want sitting in your yard, not the RFG zone. Even Putrid Imp feeds Ichorid, and Cabal Therapy can be seriously abused to decimate hands and make tons of Zombies.


I think there are 3 options to sidestep the problem of playing DA, in order of viability:

a) Learn how to play without it. Don't count on Deep Analysis as a crutch but use it if it's there. Obviously don't ignore it either, it's an incredibly powerful engine. However, be able to make other plays that don't involve it. Maximize Zombie tokens made and Dread Return Cephalid Sage (multiple times), or use Cephalid Coliseum.
b) Hold back until you have 2+ lands in play. Not always the right play, but sometimes.
c) Use LED mana. I know, you don't always get LED in your opening hand, but when you do you're usually able to play 1-2 Deep Analysis, which is enough.



I'm only running 3 Deep Analysis in my list, and I view it as the weakest of the 3 draw engines in the deck, the other 2 being Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum.

Breakthrough is best played, as I've said before, when responded to with LED and a hand of dredgers. This is a key turn 1 play.
Cephalid Coliseum is also great in conjunction with LED, but also works with T1 Putrid Imp, T2 upkeep discard + DREDGE, Cepahlid Coliseum, dump hand, activate.
Deep Anal really only shines with LED (especially with multiple LED). It also has the downside of not discarding the cards that were just drawn. When it's good it's great, but when it's not it sucks.

[Tacosnape]

I don't think Chrome Mox is such a good idea. What cards would you want to pitch to it? I can think of one: Narcomoeba. Everything else you want sitting in your yard, not the RFG zone. Even Putrid Imp feeds Ichorid, and Cabal Therapy can be seriously abused to decimate hands and make tons of Zombies.

I'm only running 3 Deep Analysis in my list, and I view it as the weakest of the 3 draw engines in the deck, the other 2 being Breakthrough and Cephalid Coliseum.

Breakthrough is best played, as I've said before, when responded to with LED and a hand of dredgers. This is a key turn 1 play.
Cephalid Coliseum is also great in conjunction with LED, but also works with T1 Putrid Imp, T2 upkeep discard + DREDGE, Cepahlid Coliseum, dump hand, activate.
Deep Anal really only shines with LED (especially with multiple LED). It also has the downside of not discarding the cards that were just drawn. When it's good it's great, but when it's not it sucks.

First of all, how are you activating your Coliseum in the listed instance? You're assuming you have two land? Fantastic, but that doesn't solve the problem. The problem is needing the two mana.

Cephalid Coliseum is every bit as useless as Deep Analysis without a guaranteed two mana, and I don't think this deck can afford to always wait a turn. Yet, sadly, if you don't have an LED, you will go off much faster if you -do- wait a turn and drop the second land.

This is where the solution of Chrome Mox comes along.

As far as what you imprint on Chrome Mox, you're thinking too much in terms of what single cards you should imprint on it and less in the context of what's in your hand at the time. Narcomoeba's an amazing opening play imprint, but so is Dread Return, because you don't need one right off the bat and you'll probably roll another one midway through your combo. If you've got two Breakthroughs in your hand, why not imprint one? One of each of your dredgers sitting in hand? You probably won't need that Thug, even for Ichorid fodder, as the speed you'll gain from having 2 mana on turn one will compensate very well for missing one black creature in your grave as Ichorid fodder. I don't even think it's that cardinal of a sin to imprint an Ichorid itself depending on your hand, as rolling your deck at high speed should be able to compensate for the fact that you're one Ichorid short.

I mostly agree with your assessment of Deep Analysis in the current build. It sucks outside of the ungodly LED draw, and for a large part, so does the entire deck. So why not fix the problem? Hitting 2 mana lends the deck a ridiculous amount of consistency it otherwise lacks, and hitting 2 mana faster is better.

Just as a sample, I goldfished ten hands in a 3-Mox-packing build and saw at least one Mox in the opening hand on four of them. Here are those four hands (None of which contained a Golgari Thug, but hey, who needs illustration of points.)

Hand 1:
Deep Analysis
Golgari Grave-Troll
Dread Return
Cephalid Sage
Chrome Mox
Chrome Mox
Putrid Imp

Hand 2:
Cephalid Coliseum
Chrome Mox
Golgari Grave-Troll
Stinkweed Imp
Ichorid
Breakthrough
Deep Analysis

Hand 3:
Narcomoeba
Breakthrough
Chrome Mox
Putrid Imp
Gemstone Mine
Deep Analysis
Stinkweed Imp

Hand 4:
Lion's Eye Diamond
City of Brass
Golgari Grave-Troll
Deep Analysis
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
Chrome Mox

Hand 1 is pretty ugly at first glance, but not terribly bad. If nothing else it's a clear example as to why the absolute max for Chrome Mox would be three if not two, because double mox kind of sucks. Double Moxen can imprint Dread Return and Cephalid Sage, cast the Putrid Imp, ditch the Analysis/Troll, and then go nuts on turn two by Dredging the Troll, then flashing the Deep Analysis. You get better options if you're on the draw as to what to imprint.

Hand 2 is pretty weird. It lacks a discard engine, so I think in a vacuum here where I was going first I'd actually open with Coliseum, Mox imprinting Deep Analysis, Breakthrough for 1. This will get you Threshold and Dredge Guys and let you trip your Coliseum for mass havoc next turn.

Hand 3 is just pretty. Mine, Mox imprinting Narcomoeba, Putrid Imp lets you get things started, then use the Breakthrough immediately after discarding the Stinkweed Imp. This will give you a fast dredge chain with the ability to flash Deep Analysis next turn, as it was in your opening hand here. This is a pretty clear example of Mox being a huge benefit to you here.

Hand 4 you pretty much just ignore the Mox and go City, LED, crack, flash both Deep Analyses. You -can- imprint Dread Return on the Mox, but with two Deep Analyses already in your hand, your chances of rolling into one diminish greatly.

[Jaynel]

Fair enough. What'd you cut in your list to make room for the Moxen. I'm still not sold on it, but I'll test it out. I just have some comments on the hands you drew.

Hand 1, those 2 Moxen could just be lands and you'd get the same result.

Hand 2, you're pitching a DA - kinda counterintuitive to the whole premise behind the addition of Chrome Mox.

Hand 3 illustrates perfectly how the Mox would work. No issues here.

Hand 4, as you said, completely ignores Mox and just goes nuts with DA and LED. It could be any card here (better if it were a dredger).

Regardless, I'm interested in trying it out.

[technogeek5000]

Me and my friend basically have this whole deck built between us. What im basically asking here is if you can construct this deck on a bugdet. I have therapies but i dont have LED's.

Can you play without LED's and still be succesful?

[noobslayer]

The short answer is No.

The long answer is NNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Jaynel]

I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

Sadly enough, one of the viable options would be One With Nothing. Please don't play this though. Just shell out for LEDs, they're played in a bunch of combo decks.

[Xero]

LED isn't really that expensive anyways. If you use ebay or look for deals elsewhere, its pretty easy to get a playset for around $30-35.

[Bovinious]

@ Chrome Mox:

In the situations you desribed, how much better is Chrome Mox really than Lotus Petal? Im not advocating Petal here, but it seems like you would rarely want/need to use a Mox more than once so Petal would serve almost the same purpose, without biting you in the ass if you dont have the correct color to imprint or cannot afford to RFG that colored card.

[Jaynel]

If something goes wrong (like it sometimes does) and you fizzle, you get to untap with at least 2 mana sources and try again, I guess.

[Illissius]

Chrome Mox is better than Lotus Petal for pretty much the same reasons that a land is better than Lotus Petal, minus the (un)counterable bit.

[Bovinious]

Of course there are some times when the permananent status of Mox will be beneficial, I was just wondering if that outweighed the drawback of the imprint, which Im not sure of.

Petal and Mox are pretty much both worse than land, so I dont see how that really supports Mox over Petal.

[TheMightyQuinn]

I have a question for all of you Ichorid players out there. If, for some reason, you were unable to attain 4 Bridge From Below, what would you replace the 4 Bridge/1 FKZ package with? I assume it would be with Sutured Ghoul/Dragon Breath, but what would the configuration be for those 5 open slots?

[Jaynel]

Bridge from Below, like LED, is unfortunately a very necessary piece of the deck. I suppose you could run Sundering Titan or some other fatties plus Dragon Breath just for Dread Return, but the deck loses a lot of power without Bridges. Ichorid dying at end of turn becomes a boon, and Cabal Therapy nets you power most of the time. That sort of insane stuff doesn't happen without Bridges.

[deadlock]

Old Ichorid lists run Ashen Ghoul. If you are more focused on the Dread Return combo, i suggest Nether Shadow.

[Adan]

Blah, bridge from below is the reason why this Deck is so sick.

Ichorid without Bridges is similar to not running LED.

I think Bridges are the main killcondition, Dread Return on the second place and Ichorid on the third place I think.

[Cait_Sith]

Me and my friend basically have this whole deck built between us. What im basically asking here is if you can construct this deck on a bugdet. I have therapies but i dont have LED's.

Can you play without LED's and still be succesful?

Yes, but you CANNOT give me any good reason to not run LED, because there is none. All it can do, at beast, is shave off 2-3 turns of play time.

[TheMightyQuinn]

My question was purely hypothetical. I realize how important Bridge is to the deck. Theres no harm in asking what you would replace it with if backed into a corner.

[Filipinho]

I liked this list.
It won a tournament with 49 people in japan. I think it's very clean and focused.

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Watery Grave
4x Undergrown sea
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

2x Golgari Thug
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Grave Troll

4x Putrid Imp

1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba

3x Careful Study
3x Deep Analysis
4x Breakthrough

3x Dredge Return
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Bridge From Below

[Tacosnape]

I have a question for all of you Ichorid players out there. If, for some reason, you were unable to attain 4 Bridge From Below, what would you replace the 4 Bridge/1 FKZ package with? I assume it would be with Sutured Ghoul/Dragon Breath, but what would the configuration be for those 5 open slots?

I think I would indeed run Sutured Ghouls in this situation. 4 of them.

Ghouls not only give you an easily lethal kill condition, but they're also an additional 4 guys to pitch to Ichorid, which you'll need without Bridge from Below.

I'm not sure I'd spend the last slot on the Dragon Breath, though. I can't really think of anything better offhand, so I guess it'll work.

[Adan]

I think I would indeed run Sutured Ghouls in this situation. 4 of them.

Ghouls not only give you an easily lethal kill condition, but they're also an additional 4 guys to pitch to Ichorid, which you'll need without Bridge from Below.

I'm not sure I'd spend the last slot on the Dragon Breath, though. I can't really think of anything better offhand, so I guess it'll work.

And where are the fat guys to make a huge Sutured Ghoul???
You won't have any. So mybe you will have to run Gigapede or such a crap.

Actually not playing Bridges means that you will loose a lot of speed. So it's not a good idea. Bridges and LED are auto include.

[Nihil Credo]

C'mon guys, you have four open slots in a deck that is able to produce green mana. I think we all know what you should run.

PS: Just kidding.

PPS:...ok, mostly kidding.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

C'mon guys, you have four open slots in a deck that is able to produce green mana. I think we all know what you should run.

PS: Just kidding.

PPS:...ok, mostly kidding.
Goyf should certainly find its way into this deck, Dread Return it, and next turn attack for each creature in all graveyards.

You are implying goyf (http://magiccards.info/8e/en/259.html) right?

Seriously though, Psychatog could work in place of the Bridges. It couldn't be as mana-less as it is now.

[Bane of the Living]

Dont bother trying to play the deck without LED's or Bridges, thats like playing Survival without Survival of the Fittest or Landstill without the Standstills.

I love the idea of 2 mana turn one but its inconsistant. What do you remove for Moxen? Not land if your trying to get to two mana more consistantly. Not key amazing fucking cards in the deck. Id like to know what your removing from your list Tacosnape. This deck is fast enough already, I dont see why it would ever need mox.

Tarmagoyf doesnt belong here. He sucks compared to the kill methods you utilize. Why would you pay two mana for a 5/6 when you could pay two to win the game??

[Jaynel]

Techy play I figured I'd post: Play Golgari Thug, flashback Therapy, and put a Narcomoeba back on top of your library (that got discarded, etc) to be dredged away.

[Bovinious]

Yeah I've pulled the same shenanigans, against Red Death one time I was reduced to blocking with a Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug, so I had the Narcomoeba hit the yard first, then had my Thug's trigger put it back on top so next turn I could Dredge the Thug back, putting Narc into play, and then recast the Thug, just to do it all again next turn. I did this to stall for about 3 turns but eventually he casted a Shade and broke the ceasefire (plus I was taking damage from 2 Cities). It was just a bit of post-Crypt desperation, but was fun while it lasted :) .

[Derklord]

Goyf should certainly find its way into this deck, Dread Return it, and next turn attack for each creature in all graveyards.

You are implying Lhurgoyf right?
Seriously, that's not the worst idea... 1-2 Lhurgoyfs in your graveyard and Sutured Ghoul should be big enough for a one hit kill ('Tog can do this, too, but Ghoul isn't stopped by one blocking creature^^).
Probably the best kill not involving bridges...

[Xurcks]

If you think about using Lhurgoyf why not just use Mortivore which regenerates?

[Adan]

Could you all just stop talking about Lhurgoyfs in THIS THREAD?!

Playing Ichorid without Bridges and/or LED is like playing Solidarity without Reset and/or Hightide.

Or Theshold without Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf.

Or...like eating doner without kebab!!!

[Bovinious]

Lhurgoyf is awful because its basically the same as GGT which we already run, and its not really worth it at all to run 2 Lhurgoyf, 1 Sutured Ghoul, and 1 Dragon Breath over the FKZ kill. I cant believe I have to explain this but I guess I do...and please people dont mention Tarmogyof again, this is one of the few threads free of people verbally masturbating over it, please lets keep it that way.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Could you all just stop talking about Lhurgoyfs in THIS THREAD?!I wasn't seriously suggesting Lhurgoyf, that's why the real content started with "Seriously though..."

[DragoFireheart]

Whats wrong with the Lhurgoyfs?

[Bovinious]

I'm really at a loss here guys, I explained why the idea was awful (it wasnt even close to viable), and people are still talking about Lhurgoyfs here...I guess Ill just have to start ignoring this thread (like I have to ignore most...) if its going to be derailed with terrible ideas like this, the only person here whos posting I ever learn anything from is BaneoftheLiving anyways, and from what Ive seen from him and know myself, I know my version of the deck is pretty optimal already. So as long as this thread keeps getting derailed by non-sense Im gunna ignore it so I dont get my 3rd warning from flaming someone in here, this is getting rediculous.

Also, if the mods somehow want to call this post inflammatory and warn me for it that is fine by me, frankly Im fed up and have multiple computers anyway...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Whats wrong with the Lhurgoyfs?
Lhurgoyf is awful because its basically the same as GGT which we already run, and its not really worth it at all to run 2 Lhurgoyf, 1 Sutured Ghoul, and 1 Dragon Breath over the FKZ kill.I was joking when I suggested Lhurgoyf. It's a bad card. It dies to the hate that this deck would face. If you had to run a reanimation target that wasn't Flame Kin Zealot, it would be something like Simic Sky Swallower, an Akroma, or Sundering Titan.

I can't see any reason to run any thing other then Zealot, winning now is better then wining three turns later.

[Adan]

Can someone give be a definition of the EOT-Discard-Mode?

Somehow I'm not satisfied with the 2 possibilities.

Do you:

- draw to 8 card, then discarding every dredger turn by turn, topdecking into Land-Breakthrough when the Odds are good?

or do you:

simply dredge 6 cards every turn?

Against thresh for examble I'm not very satisfied with either the first or the second possibility, because it's slow and I once got raced by tarmogoyf because I had every cardtype in the GY.
I'm just too stupid to play Ichorid, so I need help!

[outsideangel]

Simply dredging 6 a turn CRUSHES thresh. Because your graveyard is essentially your hand (and in many cases better) it's almost like you're drawing five extra cards a turn, which is just absolutely retarded, and they can't do a damn thing about it because dredge can't be countered.

"Dredge, discard, go" puts a lot of pressure on the Thresh player because you've removed the "control" part of "aggro-control" and now they have to try to out-goldfish you, which is not something they're very well set up to do.

Eventually, though, you do want to switch gears. Ideally you want to see a couple Cabal Therapies in the yard, and try to catch them at a point where they can't play Counterspell. Then you Therapy away their control elements all in one turn and play your bombs (Breakthrough, Dread Return on Cephalid Sage) and just win the game from there.

It seems counterintuitive, but often this style of play can be faster than running out the first turn LED or Imp or what-have-you, because if your discard outlets get countered, either by Force or by Daze, you're going to be down 1-2 cards in hand, and it's going to take you at least another couple of turns to draw back up to where you can discard.

[Bane of the Living]

So Ive been preparing for the EPIC DLD in Oct, playing several games against Ceph Breakfast, Landstill, and Survival.

Survival has been shored up thanks to my hidden shit and better sb options. Landstill is nearly a round bye, Ceph is where it gets tricky.

I find myself with roughly a 50/50 game against them since they can combo as quickly as I and also have FoW. There are some games where you can Therapy them for the correct card (almost always Illusionist) but other times they have one of the tutors in hand and assemble combo on you. Sometimes they open with turn one Nomad, turn two Illusionist. Is anyone else playing this matchup rigorously?

Leyline of the Void makes the matchup insanely easy. They simply cant find the bounce and also combo before you smother them. I actually feel comfortable losing game one and stealing the next two for sure. Though it does make me wonder whether its worth exploring the option of maindecked Leylines again. I suppose this is a meta call but it helps with all the janky shit like goblins, affinity and survival as well. Thoughts?

[Jaynel]

I've also been wondering about squeezing Leyline of the Void in maindeck. It's such a bomb against so many decks, and it would make sideboarding for matches where it isn't needed very easy.

However, I think whatever you would have to cut would slow down the deck a lot. The problem is, Leyline is really only effective when 4 are run, to increase the chances of it being in your opening hand. I wouldn't want to cut any Ichorids, because they would be amazing with your Bridges from Below impossible to remove. I also wouldn't want to cut any discard outlets - Putrid Imp, LED, or Breakthrough. Cutting Deep Analysis would severly weaken the Dredge engine, and would also invalidate running LED to power it. You could eliminate the Dread Return package (which is ~5 cards) and run 4 Leyline + 1 something. In matches when you don't need Leylines (which is mostly fast combo like Belcher), you could side in the Dread Return package + Platinum Angel/disruption of your choice.

Edit: After some playtesting, Leyline of the Void proves to be a house against Cephalid Breakfast. That plus a fast clock usually means good game. Board out 1 Dread Return, 1 Golgari Thug, 1 DA, and 1 of any of the following: Ichorid, Golgari Thug, Breakthough.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Yesterday I played a tournament and got problems against Solidarity, Threshold and Uw Landstill (Moat and in the second game Crypt + Academy Ruins). I went 3-4-0 beating Belcher, Pikulla and Threshold and lost to Solidarity, Landstill, Threshold and 10-Land-Stompy (he was much faster and got a Turn 3 kill :( ). I think one problem was, that I never mulliganed, I should do it next time.

This was the list I played:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [IN] Wax/Wane

I played just 3 Analysis, but I think it was wrong. Actually I'm thinking about Leyline main, it does really help I think.

Edit:
I think I will try this version now:
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
3 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [IN] Wax/Wane

[Jaynel]

(First, I'm just wondering: is this a European metagame?)

To which variants of Thresh did you beat/lose? I find that my matchup with UGr is pretty solid, and doesn't go down that much post board. Solidarity seems like it wouldn't be a bad matchup; it would probably favor Ichorid because of a speed advantage, lack of spells, and Cabal Therapy. However, you are kinda doing their job for them with the whole milling thing. Moat in game 1 against Landstill is kinda random; I wouldn't worry too much about that.

May I suggest Chalice of the Void over Pithing Needle in the sideboard? It preempts Tormod's Crypt and Engineered Explosives at 0.

[Bane of the Living]

It sounds like your inexperience with the deck lead to your loses. Its easy to see the busted plays with Ichorid but it isnt always clear what to do with the imperfections the deck will hand you. Mulligans to fast hands are key to beating decks with powerfull late games.

[Tacosnape]

What are the thoughts on an Ichorid build that runs a slightly higher land count to allow a large chance at getting 2 land and Tolarian Winds?

I've been finding in just screwing around with Goldfishing that Tolarian Winds resolved with a Grave-Troll in hand is game on that exact turn a little over 50% of the time with 5 cards in hand (On the play or on the draw with a play turn one), a little less than 50% with 4 cards in hand (On the play and you did something turn one), and about 90% of the time with 6 cards in hand (On the draw.) This gives Tolarian Winds a feel almost similar to Flash.

In any case, the results are generally devastating. Winds acts as both the discard outlet for your dredgers and the draw tool to make them go nuts.

[BeeblesofLife]

The only way possible to make that any good is to add petals. T.Winds is a great card don't get me wrong but by the time you play it you will have the same amount of dredging as a breakthrough. It could be good if you got it off turn one. If you are going that route use lotus petals, that would increase speed . I subbed my brass' with petals and they work out wonderfully in most cases.

[Illissius]

Winds would go hand in hand with Chrome Mox, I think.

[Benie Bederios]

Winds would go hand in hand with Chrome Mox, I think.

I tried that in old builds but that isn't that good. I mean if you start with 7 cards, you play land(6), play Chrome Mox(5) Imprint(4) and play Tolarian Wind(3) meaning discarding and drawing only 3. Breakthrough is better in that place, because it makes sure you get Threshold and probably giving you a dredger next turn.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

It sounds like your inexperience with the deck lead to your loses. Its easy to see the busted plays with Ichorid but it isnt always clear what to do with the imperfections the deck will hand you. Mulligans to fast hands are key to beating decks with powerfull late games.

It was the second tournament with that deck. In my first one I could have made Top8 (with 5-2-0 and and old version with Wraith and Underground Seas), but I let the last guy I played against win because he had much better chances to get a good card (finally he was at the 4th place), so I went 4-3-0 and got the 19th place out of 69. I played the deck for about 3 mounth since this thread was started.

Okay, I think I've to learn how to mulligan with this deck ;).


(First, I'm just wondering: is this a European metagame?)

About 70-75% are controldecks (including aggro-control [Thresh, Baseruption and so on]), 15-20% combo and the rest is aggro.


To which variants of Thresh did you beat/lose?

I've won against U/G/r/w and lost to U/G/r (but this game was very close).


I've got a suggestion for the SB: Sundering Vitae :).

And this ist how my SB looks like at the moment:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Sundering Vitae

[thejack]

At the moment I'm running Ichorid with the "old" manabase (I run 4 underground sea, 3 Watery Grave, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 1 Dakmor Salvage).
This mana base has helped me win games in the threshold matchup because I was able to keep dredging up my Golgari thug to block the goyfs from my opponent while gathering enough zombies to swing for the win. If I had been using the manabase with city of brass and gemstone mines I wouldn't have been able to slow play like this.

The mana base I use has the obvious (and many times mentioned) disadvantage that it makes it impossible to run splash colour cards in the sideboard.

I was wondering if anyone here seriously tested using a mana base like mine and putting riftstone portal in the side? I have not yet had the chance of testing this but at first sight it looks ok. Can anyone here tell me why this can or can't work out?

[Silverdragon]

The biggest problemcard your sideboard has to deal with is Leyline of the Void so relying on the graveyard to deal with enchantments looks like a really bad idea. For artifacts (aka Tormod's Crypt) a card like Ancient Grudge works because you are actually able to get it into your graveyard to play it for G. Ray of Revelation is really good against random non-Leyline enchantments like Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement or similar stuff but against Leyline you can get neither Ray itself nor the Riftstone Portal to pay for it into your grave.
In case the primary hate you face is Leyline I'd prefer City of Brass -> Emerald Charm over anything else. In any other situation going with a more classic manabase (I'd prefer 4 Underground Sea 4 City of Brass 4 Cephalid Coliseum) seems at least equally good.

Maybe someone could test a sideboard like this:
4 Dryad Arbor
3 Emerald Charm
4 Pithing Needle
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor

Dryad Arbor might be a good anti-Leyline card because if your opponent mulligans into Leyline you can go beatdown until you find an answer or at least buy more time by chumpblocking. Additionally it ups the creature count for Dread Return and the green count for Charm/Grudge.

[Nihil Credo]

Dryad Arbor might be a good anti-Leyline card because if your opponent mulligans into Leyline you can go beatdown until you find an answer or at least buy more time by chumpblocking.
Or it may get Plowed/Wasted/Bolted/whatever while you wait to topdeck the Charm, which then gets stuck in your hand. Basic Forests for the win.

[mixer]

Hello, decided it's best i'd stop lurking and give something back. Im gonna be playing this deck at only (big) legacy tourney in my country, metagame i expect consists traditionaly of aggro decks but i expect better players to bring fast clock combo decks to foil them. I spent most time learning to play with standard 5color manabase list however now im thinking about this:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [UNH] Island

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
SB: 3 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [JU] Wonder

Discussion:
1. How justified is to run 5 color manabase just for 2-3 rays/grudges in board as im not sold on emerald charm and similar stuff? i belive same thing charm does can be done by chain of vapor/therapy, am i wrong? Only what rays deal with i can think of top my head are Ghostly Prison (in practice, after board,i managed to go trough one with large troll more than once), Solitary Confinement (can be dealt, aldo less efficiently, with chain of vapor) and both of those arent really all that common.
Now with normal manabase you don't get some major changes but there are few small ones that add up:
-one more card in GY when fetching to reach ******** for coliseum
-improved resistance to wasteland
-less pain damage and lands that sick around instead of depleting
-one card less in library when fetching so your chance to dredge something useful improves
-ability to run wonder

2. MD leyines? how many games you won against non fast clock combo decks that you would lose if you did not have Dread Return package in main? Im really curious if anyone ever tracked this data. And against fast combo (breakfast, tes and mirror. belcher excluded) leyine in first game is goodtimes for you. also it hoses random stuff like deep analysis in madness, genesis...
Other matchups i expect:
***** - Leyline improves match slightly, i always sided Dread package out for needles anyways, this is attrition war for me.
Goblins - MD leyine improves your chanes
Affinity - Not sure what happens here as you lose one turn and their clock is fast but they lose ability to randomly own your bridges with ravager and like 2 ornithopters also disciple becomes chump blocker. I guess it stays the same, maybe a bit better.
i don't really expect much Stax (that possibly gets worse with leylines but than again it makes their crucible is useless) and survival (did not really test so i have no proper data).
Also with leylines in main instead dread package you get at least one free spot more, i upped number of thugs to 4.

3. Sideboard:Needles and chains are standard stuff, rest is dread package i'd board in against fast combo and ravager, any ideas where else? 2 sages ensure i win the same turn i start dredging for real. Wonder... im not sold on it but i it can be used against slower aggro deck that can't put ttheir own creatures in GY instead of Leylines. i'd replace it with something else but not sure what... i don't understand why would i use platinum angel if i could just go for the kill, am i missing something?


Im still not sold on this build but it might be worth a shot.

[Silthyn]

Personally, I couldn't care less if my lands are getting wasted. They lose their landdrop, and I've been able to do what I wanted to do (that is, resolving a Putrid Imp or Breakthrough). If you're on the play, then you should almost be happy when they play Wasteland. I am most of the time.

[Muradin]

I really like the idea of mixer's list. Maindecking leylines might be a quite good possibility to make this deck better against the most common form of hate that's being used against it: Killing your own creatures. But I think its wrong to cut the whole dread return engine from the deck simply because then you'll be missing ways to kill your own guys for a good sake. I guess there should at least stay 1-2 Dread returns in the main to get a troll in matchups where your opponent simply will not kill your non-ichorid guys. Otherwise you'll be sitting there with your bridges and your mighty 1/1 moebas in play without a possibility to transform the into many 2/2 zombies.

(In the build with 1 free slot and the island-manabase I strongly recommend to run the lonely wonder main.)

[argus]

i'm testing this build:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
3 Polluted Delta
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Careful Study
3 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Wonder


mixer's idea was fine but sometimes you wish you had the combo first game and the leylines. i cut down on dredgers and a land in order to squeeze in 3x leyline (might not be enough but it needs some testing). i thought of cutting down one Sage to have a full set of Leylines

consistency is still there, albeit a little watered down. but you just improved aggro matchups which can hose you easily with their saccable creatures while hating on thresh, breakfast, etc AND keeping your combo

sideboard is still a work in progress

[Bane of the Living]

Ok lots of nice things..

Argus + Mixer

I like both your lists. Maindecking Leyline is a great idea and honestly Ives swapped it in and out many times. It depends on the metagame you expect. I would however go with all four rather than three or the card really weakens.

I hear what your saying about Fetchlands but the help they give against Wasteland is nothing compared to the resistance your manabase has against Stifle. Stifle really will ruin you if you cant combo off because you relied on a fetchland, much like the devestation it has against storm.

I still play the 5 color base to support Ray of Revelations and a main deck card which is not black or blue.

Wonder is never as good as another Cephalid Sage or a Platinum Angel. You play far too many games where you wont see an island.

Argus I do think 9 Dredgers is too few.

Mixer the Flame Kin Zealot combo is best in the maindeck since it has the entire deck over powered game one. Thats before graveyard hate comes in and thats also why the Dread Return package is often first to go to support anti LotV/Crypt. I like LotV main as well, dont get me wrong, its just very difficult to find the right cards to cut.

Might I suggest this build for anyone interested in playing them maindeck..

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Leyline of the Void

SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Platinum Angel/Ancestors Chosen

Keep the 5c manabase since you have more room in the sb since Leyline is in the main. You would also have room for Chalice agaisnt combo.

Think about Platinum vs Ancestor. What kind of aggro do you plan to play against? Burn, Chalice Stompy? Madness or Goblins? Some aggro can burn you down very quickly but not deal with an Angel, other times they can (tinstreet) so you would benifit more from a shit ton of life gain.

Chain of Vapor is often not enough alone. Black Blue leaves you only Chain as a castable anti Leyline card. Im not comfortable with only 4 answers. Your opponent may be playing 4 Duress or 4 Force of Will. I like the additional 1-2 copies of Ray of Revelation. Its quite possible to cast even with its 2cc sometimes and will hit another one if there are two in play.

Also Chain of Vapor will get your own Leyline bounced. Its not as relevant as it was in the Flash format but its still risky business against decks like Breakfast if running it, and the mirror.

Sundering Vitae would be best if you could convolk the :g: cost.

Dakmor Salvage has gone in and out of my builds a bit. I ultimately cut it since I found it too slow but if you plan to play against shit loads of blue control go for it. Id rather dedicate some love to Phantasmagorian if thats the case tho.

Tolarian Winds is usually only as good as Breakthrough but its casting cost puts it in Daze danger zone even if your planning to play more lands.

It wouldnt be as good as jamming Carefull Study or Brainstorms in the deck.

[Bovinious]

I still play the 5 color base to support Ray of Revelations and a main deck card which is not black or blue.


I think that quote just let me figure out your secret tech, it's Manabond isnt it? And if it wasnt Manabond, I think we should at least try out Manabond it seems pretty good.

[Bane of the Living]

The idea of playing Manabond and discarding Breakthrough and Cabal Therapy makes me sad.

[mixer]

I hear what your saying about Fetchlands but the help they give against Wasteland is nothing compared to the resistance your manabase has against Stifle. Stifle really will ruin you if you cant combo off because you relied on a fetchland, much like the devestation it has against storm. Sounds good, fairly good argument for 5color base.

Wonder is never as good as another Cephalid Sage or a Platinum Angel. You play far too many games where you wont see an island. I don't really like wonder but my list had 2 sages already, as for platinum i just can't see why i would reanimate him instead making 8-12 or so hasted 3/3 tokens and swing for the win. what decks do you board platinum against? possibly im failing to see somthing here.

Mixer the Flame Kin Zealot combo is best in the maindeck since it has the entire deck over powered game one. Thats before graveyard hate comes in and thats also why the Dread Return package is often first to go to support anti LotV/Crypt. I like LotV main as well, dont get me wrong, its just very difficult to find the right cards to cut.
Yes i understand that, my standard list uses Dread package and all, however this list i posted was based on hypotesis that in many cases (i'd wish i have some numbers now but i really don't, that's why it's hypotesis - not fact) games you win on turn X with bunch of hasted 3/3 zombies would be won on turn x+1 with army of 2/2 zombies and ichorids. often FKZ is just win more. Mostly only against fast combo that one extra turn would matter and against almost all of those decks MD leyline hurts them even more. Not to mention it improves your goblins, ravager and to lesser extent ***** match. Whats your take on this?


Think about Platinum vs Ancestor. What kind of aggro do you plan to play against? Burn, Chalice Stompy? Madness or Goblins? Some aggro can burn you down very quickly but not deal with an Angel, other times they can (tinstreet) so you would benifit more from a shit ton of life gain. And again, why do that? Why not just go for the kill? How often is not possible to go for the kill right away? In my practice i can't remember it happend much if at all.


Chain of Vapor is often not enough alone. Black Blue leaves you only Chain as a castable anti Leyline card. Im not comfortable with only 4 answers. Your opponent may be playing 4 Duress or 4 Force of Will. I like the additional 1-2 copies of Ray of Revelation. Its quite possible to cast even with its 2cc sometimes and will hit another one if there are two in play. i guess you are right here, 5C base better choice.

[Bovinious]

Then you cast Breakthrough instead...

You didnt say whether or not that was your tech, obviously sometimes the card wouldnt be good in all situations but I think it may be worth a try.

And if that really isnt your tech, my next guess is Gamble :)

[Bane of the Living]

what decks do you board platinum against?

MD leyline hurts them even more. Not to mention it improves your goblins, ravager and to lesser extent ***** match. Whats your take on this?

And again, why do that? Why not just go for the kill? How often is not possible to go for the kill right away? In my practice i can't remember it happend much if at all.


Some matchs where Platinum Angel is great are Belcher, TES, SI, Madness, Red Thresh, Cephalid Breakfast, Ravager, and the mirror.

There are some other decks that also have no way to kill a 4/4 artifact. When you come across them get your auto win. Anyone following Vintage should be familiar with this strategy via Tinker. Dont forget shes a great way to keep from killing yourself by dredging away your deck.

MD LotV is a great idea if you expect alot of those decks. I said myself Im a fan and swap them in and out of my main depending on the meta I expect. Do you like the list I suggested?

The reason for Platinum or Ancestor is because sometimes you just cant win the game. There are bogus things like Solitary Confinement or your zombies cant attack through a Ghostly Prison. There are all kinds of strategies for this but 'you cant lose the game' seems like a great way to combat losing the game.

Ancestors Chosen will sometimes help you get yourself in a better position to be winning. Sometimes, especially in games where you face Tormods Crypt you'll be forced to a crawl. Goblins will eat alot of your life before you get your own offense started. Ancestor will give you the time you need to get back in the game.

Other times the uber return targets are nice are when you only have a single bridge or none at all but have a Pimp, Ichorid, Meoba ect and a return to abuse.

Other great targets include Bogardan Hellkite for its ability to win outside combat and Angel of Despair to basically remove any issue you come across, a new favorite of late. Fitting.

[georgjorge]

MD Leyline is fine for the reasons listed, but I advise you to play at least 2 Serum Powder MD or SB if you play Leyline (three is better). Serum Powder is not the worst card if you haven't a Leyline, since with this deck almost everything depends on your opening hand, and not on how much card advantage you get, so a dead Powder is well worth the opportunity to try for a good starting hand again.

Manabond looks not bad, but I can't really think of when it would be better than a Putrid Imp or Careful Study (of course, it's better when you have three lands in your opening hand, but that shouldn't really happen with this deck anyway).

[Tacosnape]

Some matchs where Platinum Angel is great are Belcher, TES, SI, Madness, Red Thresh, Cephalid Breakfast, Ravager, and the mirror.

There are some other decks that also have no way to kill a 4/4 artifact.

Platinum Angel seems like a very bad idea.

Madness can kill it with Umezawa's Jitte or, more likely, counter Dread Return. And don't we beat Madness to a bloody pulp anyway?

Red Thresh will double burn it or counter Dread Return. And don't we beat Red Thresh into a bloody pulp anyway?

Affinity can Fling something at the Angel.

Cephalid Breakfast can Stern Proctor it (Does it still run that? If not I'm sure it has some answer.)

What other decks can't kill a Platinum Angel, exactly?

I also question how useful it is against most of the combo decks you listed. I think the only scenario where it would be awesome is against a fast Empty The Warrens, which doesn't kill you and which Platinum Angel wrecks (Assuming Belcher doesn't Wish for a Shattering Spree or Goblin War Strike.)

Most other combo decks, however, play out in one of two ways. Either they combo out and kill me before I get a move, or I dredge enough to slaughter their hand with Cabal Therapies and Zombies and Ichorids (Oh my!). If I Dread Return something, why would I not just Dread Return the Zealot and win? (You're not boarding out Bridges, are you? Bridges let you play Therapy aggro-control and have kill conditions!)

This could be useful in the Mirror, I'll grant you, where all they'll have is Chain of Vapor and maybe Ancient Grudge if they run it. But that seems like a reach.

[Bovinious]

I've also never really seen the appeal of reanimation targets as they always seem worse than reanimating a Sage and winning, unless of course you need to reanimate a Harmonic Sliver or Gloomdrifter so you can later win the game, but Im not even sure if those are good enough to include.

[Tacosnape]

I've also never really seen the appeal of reanimation targets as they always seem worse than reanimating a Sage and winning, unless of course you need to reanimate a Harmonic Sliver or Gloomdrifter so you can later win the game, but Im not even sure if those are good enough to include.

I had to look Gloomdrifter up. Pretty bizarre. I think I'd pick Blazing Archon over it, but still neat.

But yeah, seriously. I agree. The only reanimation target I could imagine ever wanting is Angel of Despair, and the situations for that are virtually so few that I'd have to maindeck it to make it worthwhile. The only three things I ever want to reanimate with Dread Return are Cephalid Sage, Flame-Kin Zealot, and Golgari Grave-Troll, although I suppose in one game out of maybe 800,000 it might be correct to Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp or Narcomoeba (Elephant Grass lock? Iunno. I'm reaching here.)

[satellites]

I've tested out the Platinum Angel sideboard for a few weeks now, and I'm not convinced that it's that strong. Most of the time, if I board it in, I end up not Returning it because there's a Grave-Troll that can win me the game, or something else better.

Thing is, Ichorid wants to be on the offensive. Platinum Angel is too passive. A better board slot would go to either more graveyard protection or a better Dread Return target (which, other than the ones already MD'd, are far and few between...).

[mixer]

MD LotV is a great idea if you expect alot of those decks. I said myself Im a fan and swap them in and out of my main depending on the meta I expect. Do you like the list I suggested? yes, it's pretty much standard maindeck list, just removes small chunks of engine + therapy for leylines. Aldo, for board im still not decided. Ill run chain and needle for sure, also some rays and additional therapy, possibly also another sage to speed me up against fast combo and some ancient grudges, they actualy are fairly good at forcing opponents to pop their crypt (and thats most common hate i will encounter) earlier than they would like.

[Bane of the Living]

Platinum Angel forces your opponent to have an answer to it. Alot of decks sb out creature removal and certainly artifact removal. Im sorry if its not to your liking, to each his own. Im certain there have been better things to Dread Return at times but Im also 100 satisfied with some games Angel won me that I had no right or chance winning.

Its ridiculous in the mirror and here in West MA we have a bit of that..

[Illissius]

Is your secret tech like, Pull from Eternity or Research // Development?

[Bane of the Living]

At this point Ive had like 8 people pm me asking about my tech and nearly a pages worth of guessing on this thread. I hate to hold info from all of you but I really want to launch the new version with surprise.

IMO if your not running my newest version with my tech you should probably be maindecking Leyline of the Void. It's too good to not play in the current metagoyf and its a great card to sb out for your own graveyard removal.

[Bovinious]

This week at my local tourney I tried out my new version with -1 Deep Analysis, -1 Golgari Thug (down to 3 of each) and +2 Gamble. Gamble won me a game against 43land getting a GGT with a Putrid Imp already on the table, but in my testing it has been nuts whenever I draw it and can cast it, getting me a dredger when I need it, but more importantly getting LED/Breakthrough when I need it. A play of land, Gamble getting LED/Breakthrough is really strong, and if you get unlucky and discard the LED/Breakthrough your not in much worse shape than you were before, although it is a gamble (hence the name). I suggest you guys try it out for serious. And by the way, Leyline sucks pretty hard MD unless your meta is all Breakfast, the "Tarmogoyf meta" thrives just as hard off your GY which happens to put all 6 card types in the yard, and also the fact that you very often want to SB a card out seems like a reason NOT to run that card...

[Muradin]

Yesterday I've been playing Ichorid in a 77 participants legacy tournament in Germany. I Placed 12th going 5-2.
The wins were against Goblins, Landstill, Cephalid Breakfast,Faery Stompy and Baseeruption(UGWB Aggro-Control, quite popular in Germany.)
The 2 lost matches were against burn and Empty the Slogger(Red-Stompy).
The loss against Empty the slogger was due to him being lucky and me not.
But the loss against burn was simply due to not being able to handle a lonely crypt. At this time I've pretty much lost my bias about the consistency of the deck as I realised how many mulligans you can take and still get a good draw. But I am still absolutely not satisfied with the sideboard of the deck and in general its ability to fight GY-hate. The only form of GY hate I got to see in my last four tournaments were Crypt and Extirpate(nobody plays Leyline). But this Deck doesnt lose against Extirpate as most of the time it hits the bridges and the you go on winning with Ichorids and reanimated GGT's.
I am 17-5-2 in all four tournaments I played with Ichorid and 4 of the 5 lost games are because of Crypt. Do you have any suggestions how to fight crypt better poastboard? This was my SB for those 4 tournaments, what would you change if you are pretty sure that you won't be facing any Leylines of the Void?
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient grudge
1 Ray of revelation

[Bane of the Living]

Yesterday I've been playing Ichorid in a 77 participants legacy tournament in Germany. I Placed 12th going 5-2.
The wins were against Goblins, Landstill, Cephalid Breakfast,Faery Stompy and Baseeruption(UGWB Aggro-Control, quite popular in Germany.)
The 2 lost matches were against burn and Empty the Slogger(Red-Stompy).
The loss against Empty the slogger was due to him being lucky and me not.
But the loss against burn was simply due to not being able to handle a lonely crypt. At this time I've pretty much lost my bias about the consistency of the deck as I realised how many mulligans you can take and still get a good draw. But I am still absolutely not satisfied with the sideboard of the deck and in general its ability to fight GY-hate. The only form of GY hate I got to see in my last four tournaments were Crypt and Extirpate(nobody plays Leyline). But this Deck doesnt lose against Extirpate as most of the time it hits the bridges and the you go on winning with Ichorids and reanimated GGT's.
I am 17-5-2 in all four tournaments I played with Ichorid and 4 of the 5 lost games are because of Crypt. Do you have any suggestions how to fight crypt better poastboard? This was my SB for those 4 tournaments, what would you change if you are pretty sure that you won't be facing any Leylines of the Void?
4 Pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 Chalice of the void
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancient grudge
1 Ray of revelation

Are you sbing in 4 Needles and 1 Grudge against it? That should be enough but you also have Chalice of the Void to play at 0 if your on the play. On the draw its next to useless.

Dont forget to Cabal Therapy for Crypt and slow roll your opponents when they have one rather than combo out. Putrid Imp is amazing against Crypt in helping you rebuild and slow roll. Try him as a four of.

[thejack]

I'm having some post board issues,
how do you beat a control deck that boarded leylines?
If you dare to cast a chain of vapor you are 90% sure for it to get countered.

[Muradin]

A blue based control deck boarding leylines and getting one first turn both postboard games (assuming you won the first) will probably beat you. Your best bets are chain ov vapor and ray of revelation. If those resolve you should have a quite good chance of beating him.
But actually there are no blue based (against non-blue control you shouldn't have issues getting rid of leyline) control decks playing leylines in their board.
The most common (aggro)controldeck you get to play against is ******** which simply will not be running leyline because of tarmogoyf.
The only real controldecks that could be playing leylines are tog(not very often played) and landstill.
But Landstill doesn't play leylines very often because it doesn't fit into its general gameplan. They'd much rather be running extirpates(if they splash black) or tormods crypt which are much easier to handle than leyline when not combined with much pressure from your opponent. I am really interested which particular decks you mean when you are talking of controldecks running leylines.

[laststepdown]

I'm having some post board issues,
how do you beat a control deck that boarded leylines?
If you dare to cast a chain of vapor you are 90% sure for it to get countered.

Shuffle and cut their deck, and don't give them a Leyline in their top 7. It works for me.

Other than that, draw a 2nd Chain of Vapor if the first is countered, that works too. What deck are you talking about? With that insight we can provide more information.

[T_B]

I had to look Gloomdrifter up. Pretty bizarre. I think I'd pick Blazing Archon over it, but still neat.

But yeah, seriously. I agree. The only reanimation target I could imagine ever wanting is Angel of Despair, and the situations for that are virtually so few that I'd have to maindeck it to make it worthwhile. The only three things I ever want to reanimate with Dread Return are Cephalid Sage, Flame-Kin Zealot, and Golgari Grave-Troll, although I suppose in one game out of maybe 800,000 it might be correct to Dread Return a Stinkweed Imp or Narcomoeba (Elephant Grass lock? Iunno. I'm reaching here.)

If I am going for a win-more (where you can win, you just want to make sure) or in the early game, I have found Dread returning at Thug useful. You get him in, get a few zombies, then kill him and get another narc on top. Janky, I know, but it works.


Question: Does the 9ish land base work for you like it did in GenCon? I have found about 13 to be good, but you never really know. What has testing proven for you?

[Bane of the Living]

If you really expect to play against decks running Leyline and heavy countermagic run Ray of Revelation as a four of and consider 14-15 lands to hit :1::w: reliably. That should do it for you..

[Bovinious]

If I was expecting Leylines backed with free countermagic around every corner, I probably wouldnt play this deck anyways. But like Bane said, more land and more Rays, possibly Wax//Wane as well.

[thejack]

I'm not saying that every deck in my meta runs free counters + leylines but some of them do. In particular I'm talking about weird but strong landstill variants that are being played in my test groups which even dare to maindeck extirpates.

thanks for the helpful ideas, I’ll try fitting in some extra lands and test the matchup again and see it makes a difference.
And hope it doesn't weaken the deck as a whole, otherwise the lands will get dropped again rather fast.

[Bane of the Living]

I'm not saying that every deck in my meta runs free counters + leylines but some of them do. In particular I'm talking about weird but strong landstill variants that are being played in my test groups which even dare to maindeck extirpates.

thanks for the helpful ideas, I’ll try fitting in some extra lands and test the matchup again and see it makes a difference.
And hope it doesn't weaken the deck as a whole, otherwise the lands will get dropped again rather fast.

The problem is really that your opponents are playing Leyline of the Void and Exi in the same deck.. That seems counter intuitive. Are some playing LotV and some Exi??

Start by adding a couple more lands. They may have counterspells for Ray the first or second time you cast it but not that 3rd or 4th. Their clock is so slow this strategy shouldnt fail you. If you expect Extirpate go with Chalice of the Void. Although Exi has Split Second you can counter it with CotV@1. Chalice is also a great way to mess with Engineered Explosives@0.

[MattH]

If you really expect to play against decks running Leyline and heavy countermagic run Ray of Revelation as a four of and consider 14-15 lands to hit :1::w: reliably. That should do it for you..

Is there any particular reason to run Ray over, say, Emerald Charm? If they have a Leyline out, you'll not exactly be making them counter the Ray twice, since it will be RFG and you can't flash it back or dredge it.

I guess if they try to CAST Leyline...?

The only thing I can think of is that Ray is better against other enchantments like Moat, Ghostly Prison, etc. and so it's better overall but not against Leyline.

[ForceofWill]

Well unlike vintage you can't emerald charm your bazaar and it's easier to get 2 mana in this deck. The chances to flashback exist too. or against planar void with the trigger on the stack you can flashback and destroy it.

[Bane of the Living]

Is there any particular reason to run Ray over, say, Emerald Charm?

I guess if they try to CAST Leyline...?


Yes, and Flashback. It does neat things with Dredge. :rolleyes:

[impulsecontrol]

Though it does not solve everything, I have been using Angel of Despair in my sb to combat cards like moat, engineered plague and ghastly prison. Not to mention I also used it to kill a Tarmogoyf the turn before it would have killed me. I have found it useful, anyone else try it yet?

[outsideangel]

The only thing I can think of is that Ray is better against other enchantments like Moat, Ghostly Prison, etc. and so it's better overall but not against Leyline.

This is why. I rarely see Leyline, and Ray is a little more versatile.

[OneWithNothing]

I'm wondering how running the 2x Gamble worked out for Bovinious. I've been trying it out myself and I'm a fan. It's always been nuts when I cast it because it fetches whatever you're missing, I'm almost tempted to try and find room for 2 more. Thoughts?

[calosso]

I'm wondering how running the 2x Gamble worked out for Bovinious. I've been trying it out myself and I'm a fan. It's always been nuts when I cast it because it fetches whatever you're missing, I'm almost tempted to try and find room for 2 more. Thoughts?

The one time I saw him use it is when it was game 3, and I am playing 43 land vs him playing Ichorid. He goes pass, then I got play manabond drop 5 lands. On his turn he goes gamblem, I hit grave troll, then he proceedes to do what the deck does and smashes me right on schedule. Anyways the gamble ended up being another dredger for him to win the game since he did not have one in his oppening hand. I believe gamble is a very good card, and I asked him and Bovinious seems to agree. It can also help find random amazing cards like breakthrough, and random sideboard cards like ray and pithing needle.

[Happy Gilmore]

my only question is how you are able to find space to run Gamble. I do like it alot since it increases consistency. Not to mention being a discard outlet all on its own.

[Bovinious]

2X Gamble has been the nuts so far, the cuts I made were the 4th Thug and 4th DA.

Gamble is amazing because it finds LED/Breakthrough when you need it, and assuming you dont randomly discard the card you just got the discard will probably actually HELP you. Plus if you discard the LED/Breakthrough you havnt gotten any worse than you were before casting Gamble other than being down a card. It also can get a dredger if you need it, which obviously would be good in hand or the yard. It's also not any harder to cast than Putrid Imp or Cabal Therapy with rainbow lands.

It also serves as Pithing Needle 5-6 and Chain of Vapor 4-5 (if you only run 3 SB like me, otherwise 5-6) postboard, which can help you find answers for Crypt and Leyline.

Basically the card is nuts and everyone should run it, I'd even consider a 3rd if I could find a cut to make.

[Tacosnape]

I like it, I think. What has killed me more often than not is having to mulligan a seven card hand with no dredger in it. I appreciate the fact that Gamble can solve this problem easily. For example, a hand of...

City of Brass
Gemstone Mine
Lion's Eye Diamond
Deep Analysis
Gamble
Ichorid
Bridge From Below

...allows a choice of City/Gamble for Troll/Go, or City/LED/Gamble/Crack in Response for :u::u::u:, grab Troll, discard Troll, Flash Deep Analysis.

What I don't like about it is that it's red. Running 8 Rainbow lands has been questionable for casting Putrid Imp, and adding Gamble would almost dictate adding another Rainbow Land or two, and then you're talking about potentially cutting a Cephalid Coliseum or two. Does anyone have any opinions on the possibility of dropping to 3 Coliseums for consistency?

[Whit3 Ghost]

2X Gamble has been the nuts so far, the cuts I made were the 4th Thug and 4th DA.

Gamble is amazing because it finds LED/Breakthrough when you need it, and assuming you dont randomly discard the card you just got the discard will probably actually HELP you. Plus if you discard the LED/Breakthrough you havnt gotten any worse than you were before casting Gamble other than being down a card. It also can get a dredger if you need it, which obviously would be good in hand or the yard. It's also not any harder to cast than Putrid Imp or Cabal Therapy with rainbow lands.

It also serves as Pithing Needle 5-6 and Chain of Vapor 4-5 (if you only run 3 SB like me, otherwise 5-6) postboard, which can help you find answers for Crypt and Leyline.

Basically the card is nuts and everyone should run it, I'd even consider a 3rd if I could find a cut to make.
Gamble was something that I absolutely loved in old Ichorid, I'm glad someone worked it into the newer lists.
Another plus is that it gives you the possibility of 8x chalice(depending on how many gambles and chalices you run) turn 1 against storm combo.

Anyway, anyone ever discover what BOTL's secret tech was? I remember scanning the thread and not seeing anymore discussion on the subject.

[calosso]

Gamble was something that I absolutely loved in old Ichorid, I'm glad someone worked it into the newer lists.
Another plus is that it gives you the possibility of 8x chalice(depending on how many gambles and chalices you run) turn 1 against storm combo.

Anyway, anyone ever discover what BOTL's secret tech was? I remember scanning the thread and not seeing anymore discussion on the subject.

His secret tech was terrible, it was platinum angel.

[Whit3 Ghost]

His secret tech was terrible, it was platinum angel.
Really, I thought that got spoilt a while ago, then he posted about his secret tech.

W.e

[Bovinious]

@ Taco: I think your right that 1 more land could be right, I wouldnt cut any Coliseum's though Id add either a Tarnished Citadel or Undiscovered Paradise. I havnt had major mana problems yet, but if it starts becoming a problem Ill make a cut for a 9th rainbow land, probably Tarnished Citadel.

@ Whit3 Ghost: Bane never revealed his tech and I think it was a 2 of MD, but theres no way it can be better for this deck than Gamble which I discovered was nuts while trying to guess his tech, so I've completely stopped worrying about it.

[cianty]

I went 3-1 yesterday at a small local weekly tourney with the following list:

-------------------------
ICHORID
-------------------------

// COMBO/WIN (20)
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flamekin Zealot

// DREDGER (13)
4 Golgari Gravetroll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Putrid Imp

// DRAW (7)
3 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough

// PROTECTION (4)
4 Leyline of the Void

// MANA (16)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

// Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Ancestor's Chosen


I beat UGR Threshold twice. One of which was despite a LOT of misplays on my part (like completely fucking up a Cabal Therapy flashback by naming the wrong card although I knew 75% of it due to a previous hardcast, and forgetting to revive Ichorid several times). The third deck was completely random mono-black aggro (mentioned for competeness only). My only loss was to Raffinity (without Aether Vials!): he beat be up 2-0. I had almost no chance.

Game 1: I didn't know he was playing Aff and kept an ok hand without leyline. He played the Arcbound Ravager and I lose. There's no way I could beat it. Did I mention he played 2 Tormod's Crypt main?!

Game 2: I did have The God hand(R) started with Leyline, and Needle on Crypt (wtf) and I think I even had Breakthrough, LED and Troll. I thought I HAD to win this and then kept dredging crap deluxe: lands, LEDs, Breakthroughs, PImps ... all the good things.


So I have to say that I could have win a few matches easier with a bit of experience with the deck (this was my first tourney with Ichorid). However, Arcbound Ravager is such a beast, he makes Mogg Fanatic look like poo. I did have a lot of answers in the sideboard but I had huge worries about what to take out. I usually sided out 2 Thugs, 1 PImp and I can't recall what else. Despite the many hate cards I did have in the sideboard I really couldn't decide which to pick and which to take out for them.

Anyways, I really like the deck a lot and I'll have to try Gamble now.

Cheers!

[cheddercaveman]

How does this deck deal with the current metagame? With so much threshold, this deck, and a handful of other graveyard decks, people are playing a lot of Tormod's Crypt, Morningtide, Leyline of the Void, Planar Void and so forth. That being the case, this deck has always seemed shaky to me. Usually what I see is that it pulls out game 1, and then folds up games 2 and 3. Am I the only one seeing this?

[cianty]

Those decks mostly pack only one or two types of disruption: Threshold has Tormod's Crypt and Engineered Explosives (not playsets of both), only black decks have Leyline, etc. I had no problem fighting Tormod's Crypt OR Engineered Explosives OR Pyroclasm OR Arcbound Raver. The problems start when a deck has more than the usual obligatory 4 card (like that Affinity build with 4 Arcbound Ravagers and 2 Tormod's Crypt main and drawing lucky). Usually those cards are only one-shots anyways. Ravager is so strong because he can sac a creature whenever he pleases and thus completely shutting off my Bridges. Against other decks those one time effects can be dealt with via Chalice, Needle and naming the right things with Therapy.

[Tacosnape]

How does this deck deal with the current metagame? With so much threshold, this deck, and a handful of other graveyard decks, people are playing a lot of Tormod's Crypt, Morningtide, Leyline of the Void, Planar Void and so forth. That being the case, this deck has always seemed shaky to me. Usually what I see is that it pulls out game 1, and then folds up games 2 and 3. Am I the only one seeing this?

No, you're not the only one seeing it, but it's not the deck.

You need more experience with the deck if you're having this problem. Just to illustrate a point and not to brag, I consider myself a master at picking up a deck and learning it almost immediately, but I found that early on in my Ichorid playing that the deck stumbled and struggled. After that, however, I've found it to be consistent, relentless, and brutal, and I know this is a result of nothing other than the fact that early on it was me making mistakes, stumbling, and struggling, and not the deck. Ichorid can have a tough curve and you don't often realize the mistakes you make.

As for the various forms of hate, let's analyze.

Tormod's Crypt is not game over by itself, though it can more or less serve as a double timewalk and when it's paired with things like Mogg Fanatic, it's pretty devastating. Crypt is solved by Needle or, if you run it, Chalice for 0.

Planar Void is game if left unanswered, but the amazing part about Planar Void is that Ray of Revelation circumvents it if you can get it to hit the Graveyard (Via Putrid Imp or even Dredging if you run instant speed draw like Brainstorm.) Planar Void being triggered means it can be responded to, which makes it infinitely easier to deal with than...

Leyline of the Void. Bounce slaughters Leyline, as does Ray of Revelation if you get two mana. I've only won one game ever without getting rid of it due to a bizarre hand that let me hardcast two Putrid Imps, a Narcomoeba, and a Stinkweed Imp and swing for the win (My opponent had mulled to 5 hunting the Leyline and therefore got stuck on one land for about five turns.)

Morningtide is jank, Tarmogoyfs galore or not. Just Therapy it or recover afterwards.

Extirpate can be tricky, but it's not the end of the world unless they hit you with two or more pretty quickly (Usually hitting Bridge from Below and Ichorid). Whatever they hit, switch your plan to win with something else.

This may seem like a lot of hate, but look at it this way. Graveyard hate is rarely maindecked and also rarely in a sideboard in a quantity higher than 4. The hardest part is guessing what to board in against your opponent, as until game 3 you have no way of knowing for sure just what graveyard hate he's packing.

[Lemuria]

No, you're not the only one seeing it, but it's not the deck.

You need more experience with the deck if you're having this problem. Just to illustrate a point and not to brag, I consider myself a master at picking up a deck and learning it almost immediately, but I found that early on in my Ichorid playing that the deck stumbled and struggled. After that, however, I've found it to be consistent, relentless, and brutal, and I know this is a result of nothing other than the fact that early on it was me making mistakes, stumbling, and struggling, and not the deck. Ichorid can have a tough curve and you don't often realize the mistakes you make.

As for the various forms of hate, let's analyze.

Tormod's Crypt is not game over by itself, though it can more or less serve as a double timewalk and when it's paired with things like Mogg Fanatic, it's pretty devastating. Crypt is solved by Needle or, if you run it, Chalice for 0.

Planar Void is game if left unanswered, but the amazing part about Planar Void is that Ray of Revelation circumvents it if you can get it to hit the Graveyard (Via Putrid Imp or even Dredging if you run instant speed draw like Brainstorm.) Planar Void being triggered means it can be responded to, which makes it infinitely easier to deal with than...

Leyline of the Void. Bounce slaughters Leyline, as does Ray of Revelation if you get two mana. I've only won one game ever without getting rid of it due to a bizarre hand that let me hardcast two Putrid Imps, a Narcomoeba, and a Stinkweed Imp and swing for the win (My opponent had mulled to 5 hunting the Leyline and therefore got stuck on one land for about five turns.)

Morningtide is jank, Tarmogoyfs galore or not. Just Therapy it or recover afterwards.

Extirpate can be tricky, but it's not the end of the world unless they hit you with two or more pretty quickly (Usually hitting Bridge from Below and Ichorid). Whatever they hit, switch your plan to win with something else.

This may seem like a lot of hate, but look at it this way. Graveyard hate is rarely maindecked and also rarely in a sideboard in a quantity higher than 4. The hardest part is guessing what to board in against your opponent, as until game 3 you have no way of knowing for sure just what graveyard hate he's packing.


And let's not forget that this deck can easily wins turn one or two, so, your opponents may play a hate quickly, or else...

[Syco_Tr0pic]

And a big badass 15/15 Golgari Grave-troll is nothing to be laughed at, too. Dumb fat GGT beats has won me many games lately, and the opponent seems to never see it coming.

[Tacosnape]

And let's not forget that this deck can easily wins turn one or two, so, your opponents may play a hate quickly, or else...

I find that a full turn one win is rare unfortunately, but I get a -lot- of wins turn two. Undisrupted I'd say my turn two or less win ratio is pretty close to 50% (It might be higher if I wasn't the worst person ever at drawing Lion's Eye Diamonds. I swear I get one like one game out of six.)


And a big badass 15/15 Golgari Grave-troll is nothing to be laughed at, too. Dumb fat GGT beats has won me many games lately, and the opponent seems to never see it coming.

This is very true. Though enormous GGT's are usually best against random things like Ghostly Prison or Extirpate, and less so against Crypt/Leyline/Planar.

[Bovinious]

Basically what Tacosnape said, when I started playing Friggorid 6 months or so ago I feared Crypt a lot and found the deck to be inconsistent, but having gained months of experience I found that the problem was more of me making small mistakes in play (often mull or not), or sideboarding (this is REALLY important). Basically you need to know what hands you should keep in each matchup and how to play them, and again aI cant stress this enough, a good SB and SBing strategy is pivotal. Sometimes you do randomly lose to hate, but correct play and sideboarding helps to minimize that significantly.

[Lemuria]

(It might be higher if I wasn't the worst person ever at drawing Lion's Eye Diamonds. I swear I get one like one game out of six.)

LOL.


Sometimes I get 2 LED on my oppening hand.


Mana, LED, Breakthrought, Sac LED in response, usually gg. With the entire Raccon City and its zombies, or a savage Golgari Grave Troll

[Silverdragon]

I've been testing this deck quite a bit lately and I have a question.
First this is my build so far:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Gamble
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Now what would you cut for an additional Gamble? I also want to play an additional Cephalid Sage and a fourth Golgari Thug but I think Thug is the first card to get cut for Gamble or Sage. Any advice?

Maybe it's already been talked about but what do you guys think of Stalking Vengeance? I've seen this card in Standard and Extended Dredge decks to get around Teferi's Moat and other nonsense. Could this card be useful in the sideboard?

[Bovinious]

In your list the 4th Putrid Imp would be the 2nd cut, in my list I cut 4th DA and 4th Thug because Ive always only had 3 Imps. 11 dredgers has actually been working out fine, and im not sure an extra Sage is needed either, I actually want to try and fit in a 3rd Gamble but cant find room.

[Brushwagg]

Here's the list I went 3-1-1 with last weekend. I beat U/R F. Stompy, TES(Twice once in swiss once in top 4), Breakfast. My lost came to Landstill and making alot of mistakes. Which I shoudn't have.

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [U] Underground Sea

// Creatures
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
3 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [IA] Brainstorm

SB:
4x Chain of Vapor
3x Annul
3x Pithing Needle
2x Duress
1x Cabal Therapy
1xWonder
1x Secret tech

The board was thrown together in like 5 minutes before the tournament started.

So basically
-3 Annul
-1 Wonder

@Lotus Petal:Love it. Having that one extra mana can make all the difference in the world.

[MattH]

Yes, and Flashback. It does neat things with Dredge. :rolleyes:

It does not do any dredge tricks when trying to kill a leyline. Which I explained at length.

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been saying this deck was a wrecking ball since I learnt to pilot it. The issues the deck has are often the players just like everyone said. Mulligan decisions and sideboarding can be brutal to one new with the deck. Although it may seem like just another combo deck this deck doesnt play like a normal magic deck does. It breaks rules by 'drawing' six cards a turn. Its the only deck you've ever picked up that doesnt need to cast a single spell to win the game.

Ive said this before and I'll continue saying it. Cabal Therapy is the lynchpin of the deck. It makes me shudder to see it run as a 3 of in some lists. Honestly cut Ichorids before therapy. You can lose several games because you have a Narcomeoba in play, 2+ Bridges in the yard, and no Therapy to get some 28 Weeks Later zombies.

Gamble is better than my tech. I might even swap to it for performance quality over tactical removal tech. I thought about it early on but I suppose forgot it was so good.

Cutting Cephalid Coliseum is insane. Its the best dredge enabler in the deck. Yes, better than Breakthrough. Breakthrough can be countered. You crush landstill and thresh with the spelless route and it supports that path better than any other card in the deck.

Angel of Despair is another little gem Ive been playing for a while now. She's usually better than Platinum Angel aside from combo matches. In all honesty I added AoD in preperation for 40+land.dec and Eternal Garden. I expect to play against Diablos or Watcher at the EPIC dld and the deck had no way to win through Crop Rotation. Its a turn one play that can lock you out completely. Glacial Chasm is the biggest suspect. Maze of Ith only hurts a big troll, Tabernacle cant hurt the big troll plan and Flame Kin Zealot allows the combo win still. Chasm can only be destroyed with Dread Return.

Consider adding it to your arsenal if you see lands in your meta. Im looking at you Germany.

This deck is funny in a way that zombies are.. It infects you and you swap decks right to fuckin Ichorid. I really cant think of a reason to play anything else. Really. Start testing the mirror match guys, Im already way ahead of you. Let the Leyline Wars begin.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Gamble is better than my tech. I might even swap to it for performance quality over tactical removal tech. I thought about it early on but I suppose forgot it was so good.

Hi,

this is my actual list, what would you cut for Gamble and how you're playing it? :) :

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

[MattH]

this is my actual list, what would you cut for Gamble and how you're playing it? :) :
Second Sage is not that great.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Second Sage is not that great.

I really liked the second Sage, he really often wins the game. But I'll try it. How many would you play? I think just one copy of it is not that great, I would like to run two, but I don't know what I should cut.

[outsideangel]

I think the second Sage is better than the 4th Deep Anal. I find that very often I never get to two mana, and Sage works manaless.

[Bane of the Living]

Hi,

this is my actual list, what would you cut for Gamble and how you're playing it? :) :

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

Ok heres Bane's breakdown on the Ichorid skeleton. I cant tell you exactly what to play. Everyone has their own playstyle and preferences with the deck. There are some cards in the deck that can be cut down for these 'meta' slots.

Here are the cards Im finding amazing as fit in's from time to time.

1) The second Dread target. IMO the second Sage is better. Sage will find FKZ. This can be win more sometimes and your opinion on the matter will fluctuate based off your personal luck when it comes to dredging. Sometimes you'll have the crazy, Stinkweed/LED/CoB/Breakthrough type hand but you wont dredge into another dredger or you'll just never see the FKZ or Sage, once in a great while it is the bottom card or so. Include Dread target #2 when you feel its appropriate. Just dont forget these are often the first cards cut for sb cards.

2) Angel of Despair. I wouldnt group her with FKZ or Sage since shes based more off your metagame. I dont want to start in on AoD vs Platinum since often decks are prepared for Plat maindeck (think StP) and this is a maindeck debate slot. Inclue AoD like I already said if your seeing alot of land decks. They in specific can just screw you since dropping a land or playing Crop Rotation is much faster than Worship/Ghostly Prison/Moat ect.. But if you see Enchantress in your meta as well, consider a main slot for her.

3) Leyline of the Void. My favorite card to rererereincorporate into the maindeck. The element of surprise from game one LotV is awesome. You win matches like Iggy and Breakfast and Goblins and Affinity much more. Often you'll need to metagame against those aforementioned or the land/enchantment/artifact prison meta. Know your enemy. By the way, whoever maindecks LotV is the one that wins the mirror.

4) Gamble. I havent had enough experience with this in the deck to figure if its just auto include to the skeleton or just an extra boost for the deck. The fourth Thug/PImp/DA can often serve the same power boost. The best thing Gamble has going for it is the ability to get LED. The crack of the format.

5) Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox. This is one of the most controversal innovations. Sometimes the speed boost will blow your opponent away before they can drop Crypt or get Daze online or Brainstorm into a Force of Will. Remember, if your opponent draws a card, plays an Island and Brainstorms thats, 11 cards theyve gone through to find it. Apply Lotus Petal when in very high Force of Will presence. It should be worth noting Lotus Petal is not my preference. Compare it to Petal in some builds of Flash. Some people chose to play them or them + ESG or maybe Chrome Mox as the perm mana source. The problem is the longer game goes on the worse your choice of a non land will be. Daze will hurt more; trying to cast 2 Needles in one game, or trying another time to resolve a a Chain of Vapor will hurt more. It makes it completely impossible to go into a petty beatdown with Meobas and Thugs. Finally, they make it much harder to cast Deep Analysis past turn one.

Heres my skeleton.

4 Bridge
3 Ichorid
4 Therapy
3 PImp
3 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread
3 Thug
4 Stinkweed
4 Troll
4 Meoba
1 Sage
1 FKZ
4 LED
4 Coliseum
4 City
3 Gemstone

Im not saying these are the numbers I run or the numbers that are right. This is the minimal number of these cards you should be running to perform at least to this decks standards. Add Brainstorms or Gambles or Leylines or anything but doing things like dropping below 15 mana sources is dangerous. Playing less than 11 Dredgers will effect the comboing.

I hope this helped alittle. I feel like Ive wrote a primer on the deck within these pages.

[Bovinious]

That shell is pretty good, in my opinion all lists should have 3X Dread Return and 4X Ichorid, which leaves 3 slots open, which I fill with a 4th Mine and 2 Gamble. I suppose if those last 3 spots were something that didnt cost mana like Street Wraith or Leyline you may be ok with 7 rainbow lands, but Id rather be able to cast Gamble and my SB cards more reliably.

[Bane of the Living]

That shell is pretty good, in my opinion all lists should have 3X Dread Return and 4X Ichorid, which leaves 3 slots open, which I fill with a 4th Mine and 2 Gamble. I suppose if those last 3 spots were something that didnt cost mana like Street Wraith or Leyline you may be ok with 7 rainbow lands, but Id rather be able to cast Gamble and my SB cards more reliably.

Glad to see your on top of things. :tongue:

The more 'free' slots in the deck, which also includes Ceph Sage, the less lands you need. Thats the minimal number I recommend when keeping sb cards in mind.

I think the deck can go to three Ichy's if running Leyline of the Void. Remember this. If bridge can become that primary you only need 3 ichy as fodder and slight back up. Dread Return is the most frequently sb'ed out card.

I forgot to mention Street Wraith, Im glad you brought him up. His power level goes up according to how powered the deck can be. What I mean by this is perhaps better when refered to as manaless. Also his use goes up depending on how many FoW's you want to dodge. He's so good with Bazaar.. :frown:

[Muradin]

I've been recently working on a better Sideboard for this deck. First I thought that unmask could be quite good. But soon I noticed that removing black cards is not good in this Deck. Then I tried Duress and it was really good as an answer to hate and against combo. Of course Duress is much more effectice when you are on the play, so if either you have lost game 1 or for Game 3 when you know what kind of hate you are facing.
When Lorwyn becomes tournament legal thoughtseize will be the most versatile answer to everything but leyline. It even gets rid of Mogg fanatic and Tarmogoyf. To be able to cast Thoughtseize constantly I added another land and cut an Ichorid for it.

What do you think of Thoughtsize in the sideboard?

[Tacosnape]

I'm not a Thoughtseize fan here.

Leyline handles Mogg Fanatic and Tarmogoyf just as effectively if not moreso.

[outsideangel]

Leyline doesnt really answer Tarmogoyf because of the number of card types you will inevitably be dredging into your own yard. Fortunately, just winning is a pretty solid answer to goyf.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

About how much would a descent Ichorid deck run? Just looking at the lists I am going to take a wild guess at around $325. I have been thinking about taking up another deck, so I would like to know what the damage to my wallet might be.

[Bovinious]

4 LEDs at ~ 12, 4 Gemstone Mines at ~6, 4 City of Brass at ~5, 4 Ichorid at ~5, 4 Bridge at ~8, then SB Needles and Leylines. Its not that expensive actually, I guess it depends what you have for it already.

[Tacosnape]

Leyline doesnt really answer Tarmogoyf because of the number of card types you will inevitably be dredging into your own yard. Fortunately, just winning is a pretty solid answer to goyf.

It answers Tarmogoyf in the only sense it's important to do so, in that it keeps Tarmogoyf from going to the opponent's graveyard. Other than that, you're exactly right. The solution to Tarmogoyf or any other nondisruptive creature is to just win.


About how much would a descent Ichorid deck run? Just looking at the lists I am going to take a wild guess at around $325. I have been thinking about taking up another deck, so I would like to know what the damage to my wallet might be.

Far far less than that. Ichorid's buildable for under $200. There isn't a rare in it that costs more than $6-8.


I've been recently working on a better Sideboard for this deck.

For what it's worth, I like the full playset of Ray of Revelation. There's so few artifacts that hurt you and so many enchantments, ranging from Leyline to Elephant Grass to Ghostly Prison to the ever common Engineered Plague (Try winning with two Plagues on Illusions and Horrors, especially after they Extirpate your Bridge from Below. It's tricky.) I feel like quad Ray serves better than a lot of the dead SB slots.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Far far less than that. Ichorid's buildable for under $200. There isn't a rare in it that costs more than $6-8.



Oh nice. Thats probably less than the cost of Thresh's manabase... Anyway, how does playing this deck feel in comparison to other combo decks? What about other decks in general? The deck looks like a blast to play, and it is plenty competitive. Is there any room for creativity and originality in this deck? Thanks and maybe next tourney you journey to, you might notice this odd tea cup wielding mofo across the table with a deck oddly similar to yours.

[Jak]

Well usually all combo decks are different and play different. I used to play test the deck a bit and found it extremely fun. The problem I had with it was that it is dependent on luck a lot. Like getting the LED or Breakthrough or getting enought bridges and nars in the GY. It was probably my skill at playing the deck most of the time, but sometimes you could just get unlucky and not get those things. It does have good MUs like Thresh.

[DragoFireheart]

I have been using this deck for a bit and I personally think that Leyline of the Void maindecked playset is a great idea. It keeps your Bridges safe and it weakens or Cripples other Graveyard based decks [Breakfeast, Thresh, Ichorid].

I do have one question though: is there some sort of card that can give my Trolls trample? If there is, would there be a way to implement it into this deck?

Don't ask why as I want to use this as my "secret tech". :wink:

[Illissius]

There's Brawn if you're using fetchlands and Arbors, or Wonder and Traitor's Clutch for other kinds of evasion.

[ClearSkies]

How about Sylvan Might?

Instant 1G

Target creature gets +2/+2 and gains trample until end of turn. Flashback 2GG (You may play this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then remove it from the game.)

You can pop it off for "only" at the cost of a LED and then some more mana. Now that is tech. >_>

Or, you can try Defy Gravity, if you just want flying.

U Instant

Target creature gains flying until end of turn.
Flashback U

[Jaynel]

Or you can Dread Return a Smogsteed Rider or Sun Quan, Lord of Wu.

[DragoFireheart]

Or you can Dread Return a Smogsteed Rider or Sun Quan, Lord of Wu.

Now thats some super secret tech. :laugh:

I might go use the brawn: only problem is the fact I'd have to get more Tropical Islands and I'm using my only playset in my Thresh deck. :frown:

[Tacosnape]

Oh nice. Thats probably less than the cost of Thresh's manabase... Anyway, how does playing this deck feel in comparison to other combo decks? What about other decks in general? The deck looks like a blast to play, and it is plenty competitive. Is there any room for creativity and originality in this deck? Thanks and maybe next tourney you journey to, you might notice this odd tea cup wielding mofo across the table with a deck oddly similar to yours.

Ichorid feels like no other deck. The first thirty or fifty times you play it, you'll find it awkward, inconsistent, and incredibly bizarre, kind of like how a typical player used to do with Solidarity at first attempt. However, with practice and effort, it becomes natural and deadly.

The creativity and originality comes largely in the sideboarding. Many many many things fall under the "Danger of Cool Things" label in Ichorid, and it's one of the only decks I've ever seen where you have to go out of your way to find cards worth sideboarding. 4 Leyline of the Void is mandatory in SB. The other 11 slots are kind of up for debate. Chain of Vapor is common due to it being insanely easy to cast and useful against Leyline. Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation are both complete powerhouses. Other options that have been tried include Pithing Needle, Chalice of the Void, Duress, and Force of Will, none of which have done much to prove themselves worthwhile. So the sideboard's still got room for improvement.



I have been using this deck for a bit and I personally think that Leyline of the Void maindecked playset is a great idea. It keeps your Bridges safe and it weakens or Cripples other Graveyard based decks [Breakfeast, Thresh, Ichorid].

I do have one question though: is there some sort of card that can give my Trolls trample? If there is, would there be a way to implement it into this deck?

Don't ask why as I want to use this as my "secret tech". :wink:

Maindeck Leyline's a metagame call, although I'd like to go on record to say that Leyline of the Void doesn't cripple Threshold at all considering you're going to make their Tarmogoyfs enormous on your own quite effectively. I personally don't like it, but I'd do it in certain metagames.

As far as the trolls, giving them trample would be a waste of a slot considering that on the whole you should be getting one into play about one out of ten games, if not even less frequently. I played through an entire tournament tonight (4-0, won top 4) and only brought a Grave-Troll in play once out of all the games (Against Burn.)

However, if you wanted to make a Troll evasive, Defy Gravity would be the only acceptable way to do it, in my opinion. D.G. is one of the only things you can semi-reliably cast in the midgame.

[mixer]

I played this at Croatian legacy champs and entered top8 with 4-0-2 score, i played against mono black aggro, some kind of loam control, landstill and *****. I lost first top8 round to ***** due to deck fizzling horribly in first game and hate in game two.

Heres the list i played, only thing i did not test was gamble.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Leyline of the Void

SB: 4 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Cephalid Sage

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Excellent performance mixer! I am no position to comment on your list due to me being a Ichorid virgin... That sounded awkward, but I think that is probably the best term for someone who has never played this deck :laugh:. It does seem very unique.

Hmmm, I really like the fact that this deck is still pretty open as far as SB goes. It means perhaps in some delusional part of my mind, I could be of help and bring a deck further in its develop. Its a nice thought anyway.

[Bovinious]

@ Mixer: you absolutely NEED 4 Cabal Therapy MD, I'd go down to 3 Ichorids before 3 Therapys, but would optimally keep 4 of each.

[Jaynel]

Could mixer also cut 1-2 lands? Would the deck still function optimally?

[Bovinious]

12 is pretty much the bare minimum if you want to be able to cast your Breakthrough and SB cards often, howeverI would cut the Leylines from MD but thats just me, in the right environment I can see how MD Leyline would be the right choice.

[mixer]

@ Mixer: you absolutely NEED 4 Cabal Therapy MD, I'd go down to 3 Ichorids before 3 Therapys, but would optimally keep 4 of each. If there would be one more slot one that therapy would be first card to add. It's not used only to disrupt opponent but also as valuable sacrifice outlet and discard for my hand too. Cutting ichorid for therapy is possible, especially since i rarely revive more than 2 ichorids at same time as number of black creatures i can feed to them mostly is not that big.


Could mixer also cut 1-2 lands? Would the deck still function optimally? I'd say no, sure there are broken hands that can win with no lands at all but often you need to keep hand that's just ok, in those situations is very often crucial to get to 2 lands so you can flashback deep analysis so you don't get stuck on dredging one card per turn. Also keep in mind that coliseum adds only blue mana so its useless fortherapy casting and rays/grudges off side. This deck needs more consistency over more power and cutting lands does the opposite.

[Lemuria]

I've playtested Gamble, and I have to say that this card is a cheaper Demonic Tutor on this deck, decreasing your chances of mulligan (though I've won matches even when I mulld to four) and setting up your combo on next turn. In your oppening hand, chances you will go off on the next turn are huge (unless you are a damn unlucky bastard as me, and tutor breakthrough, and then, discard breakthrough:mad: , but shit happens)

Anyway, I think Gamble pretty much worths 3/4 slots. Also, if people starts to pay more attention on this deck, I think it can easily become a DTB. It's the most consistent and deadly combo deck I have played among all combo decks you know.

[Bovinious]

I'd like to fit another Gamble or 2 MD also, what cuts are you thinking of making? Also, with 3 PImp, 4 Breathrough, 4 Therapy, 3-4 Gamble, does anyone think we may need to add a 9th rainbow land?

[Muradin]

Does anyone think, that Careful Study might be worth a shot as it's a staple in all Extended lists of this deck? In my careful study would make this deck a lot more stable making hands without a discard outlet less common. Furthermore it would be a card that could be played out of Cephalid Coliseum.
But its hard to find room for it as it would be best as a 4 of. Any thoughts on that?

[Illissius]

Extended versions don't have Lion's Eye Diamond, so they use all of Breakthrough, Careful Study, and Putrid Imp; Legacy versions tend to have LED and two of those three (generally Breakthrough and one of the other two), though if you think you can find room for more without compromising other aspects, feel free to try it.

[BreathWeapon]

It's not a bad idea just to compare Legacy vs Extended Dredge to see whether or not the Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis and Cephalid Coliseum package is superior to the Tireless Tribe, Careful Study and Street Wraith package and by how much. I've seen the Extended Dredge decks hold there own in this format, which leads me to believe that there might be something that we can learn from them. Tireless Tribe is fairly amazing against Tarmogoyf for instance.

[Tacosnape]

Cephalid Coliseum needs to be dropped to three, especially with Gamble becoming a part of this deck. I had several hands in a tournament this weekend that consisted of double Cephalid Coliseum and things I couldn't cast, be they Putrid Imp or Gamble. I don't ever want double Cephalid Coliseums. One is awesome, two is useless.

Undiscovered Paradise needs to take 1-2 slots, also. Its drawback is virtually nonexistant in this deck.

Careful Study doesn't belong here, strangely. LED, Breakthrough, Therapy, Gamble, and Putrid Imp fill the discard role very well. The only one of the aforementioned cards I would ever run less than four of is Gamble. Therapy is a monster, and Putrid Imp fills a triple role of being a discard outlet, being Ichorid Food, and being an evasive beater if you get into a ground stalemate.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

I am new to ichorid!

So some questions...

Is breaktrough realy better than tolarian winds?

How should i play against a opponent with a crypt on board?
Should i ignore it? try to find a awnser for it? Or should i dredge softly and hold something back in my hand?

[loveisgreen]

Someone discussed that a couple pages back, I might suggest you read the entire thread before asking about the deck, there are lots of different builds and information on how to play it.

I can't imagine cutting a Coliseum for anything, if Gamble lets you do such broken things, I could support cutting the Sage and a Dread Return for a Gamble and a Paradise. But that's just me, I'm an all in kinda guy.

[Syco_Tr0pic]

I am new to ichorid!

So some questions...

Is breaktrough realy better than tolarian winds?

How should i play against a opponent with a crypt on board?
Should i ignore it? try to find a awnser for it? Or should i dredge softly and hold something back in my hand?

Basically, yes: Breakthrough mops the floor with Tolarian Winds. Winds costs 2 Mana, while Breakthrough costs, safe some weird scenario where you want to keep a card in your hand (another Breakthrough, a sideboard card, dunno), just one measly blue mana.
Plus, the wonder interaction LED + Breakthrough + Dredgers is the sole responsible for the decks 1st turn kills on the play (not the sole, you know, there's always LED + Cephalid Coliseum + Deep Analysis + Dredgers, but it's a longer shot).
If you try to accelerate into Tolarian Winds in the first turn with, say, Lotus Petal, or (god forbid) Chrome Mox, (cause you are stuborn and think that discarding before drawing is teh_nutz) you risk watering down your own spell, reducing the number of possible dredges off the card. Breakthrough always means 4 dredge opportunities.

Playing against a Crypt on the table revolves around slow rolling your threats. Ichorid is key in this kind of situation. Dredge slow, reanimate your Ichys, smash a little face. Make a zombie or two, if the guy is ok with that. They are going to blow the Crypt because of them sooner or later (sooner, I assume). Then, if you have gas in your hand and didn't get unlucky in your careful dredges (keep in mind that it happens time to time, though), you can try to go balls to the walls and run him over.
Putrid Imp also shines against Crypt, allowing you to control how much from your hand you are going to commit to the yard and being very reliable after the opponent Crypts your grave away.
If you are playing sided (probably taking the Zealot combo out), your strategy becomes wait for your anti hate cards (or just draw them in the opening 7 or 6 - that would be tech) and make them blow your yard in response to Chain of Vapor, Ancient Grudge or Pithing Needle. From there you proceed normally and rebuild.
Well... that's how I play, and I've survived double Crypt with those strategies, but it's not like it's the "End All Be All Guide For Ultimate Surviverance Against Angry Crypts of Doom". Sometimes the guy blows one Crypt and you die miserably just the same.
I wonder how the other guys handle that scenario as well. Something that I didn't cover?

[Tacosnape]

I think you covered Tormod's Crypt pretty thoroughly. There is, of course, the possibility of stopping it with Pithing Needle (If you run it, after a lot of testing I'm not sure you should) or Ancient Grudge (If you run it, after a lot of testing I -am- sure you should.) Chalice for 0 stops it, but only on the play or if you combine it with Chain of Vapor, and I'm not a huge advocate of Chalice in this deck anyway.

The third option is the ever risky Force of Will, which I've seen some people run as an all purpose board-in. The advantage of Force is that you don't have to have any idea exactly what graveyard hate your opponent packs to take advantage of it. The disadvantage is that it's difficult to cast sometimes and completely useless outside of your opening hand.

[Bovinious]

Force of Will seems pretty bad to me, not only do you not have enough (15 INCLUDING FOW...) blue cards, and also pitching Breakthrough would probably always suck. Plus, it doesnt even counter Leyline or Extirpate...seems underwhelming. Id rather run Unmask, which actually may not be that awful now that I think about it...

4X Pithing Needle is your best solution to Crypt (along with 2-3 Gamble MD), other than just winning or playing around it as described up there. Ancient Grudge does force them to pop it early, but so does not over dredging and beating down with a few ichorids/zombies. I like Grudge SB to stop other random artifacts I may see like Belcher/Mishra's Factory/randomness. And your right Chalice pretty much sucks in this deck.

[loveisgreen]

Playing on mws I keep running into Sui black decks that are running Yixlid Jailer MAIN, and I have no idea how combat this. Is it possible to up the Gamble count to 3 or 4 and mainboard 1 Darkblast against him, or is Sui not a very popular archetype?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Does your bridge get removed if you kill the Yixlid Jailer?

[Tacosnape]

Playing on mws I keep running into Sui black decks that are running Yixlid Jailer MAIN, and I have no idea how combat this. Is it possible to up the Gamble count to 3 or 4 and mainboard 1 Darkblast against him, or is Sui not a very popular archetype?

I've actually been testing Volcanic Spray, of all cards, to help against ETW Tokens and random annoyances like Yixlid Jailer. Granted, the flashback is irrelevant here, but it's a decent Gamble target.

[Muradin]

I am in general interested what all your sideboards look like as in my oppinion this is the part of the deck that is the most difficult one to build.

My SB at the moment is:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ray of Revelation
4 Pithing Needle
4 Duress(Combo in my meta)

[loveisgreen]

My sideboard looks like:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Darkblast (testing Volcanic Spray)
2 Chalice of the Void
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Orim's Chant

If the deck can work in 4 Gamble, the sideboard can become a Wish- like toolbox, and although I've cut the Cephalid Sage and a Dread Return for the third Gamble and a second Paradise, it hasn't hurt the consistency that much. Being able to fetch the piece you need to complete one of those broken LED, DA, Coliseum hands is absolutely nuts.

Chant is used against other combo, and I still think Chalice has game against Thresh and other decks playing LED when playing first.....Gamble opened so many doors for this deck it's hard to find anything that's worth bringing in.

[Bovinious]

My SB is:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge

Yixlid Jailer doesnt really seem to be a problem, but Chain of Vapor takes care of him (along with Therapy).

[Nihil Credo]

Does your bridge get removed if you kill the Yixlid Jailer?
Because of how zone-changing rules work, I am fairly sure the Bridge survives.

[Mordenkain]

I'll picking up this deck soon, been goldfishing this a lot in mws lately becoming very impressed with this bizzare deck. This is my list:

// Lands
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
+ some more, haven't chosen yet.

Pretty standard I know. I would like to include 2-3 copies of Gamble, however I have no idea how to fit them in. I would like to keep the rainbow manabase for a couple of reasons, one being the flexibility of SB and the soon the come MD gamble, another being I don't own a set of Underground Seas. On another note I would like to keep the Cabal Therapies at 4 if possible.

So heres the questions:

#1 How to fit 2-3 Gamble?

#2 What to put in the SB?

#3 Don't know if im the only one, but more often than I would like I get stuck on 1 mana, leaving me unable to flashback Deep Analysis, playing Breakthrough for more than X=0 and hard casting Golgari Thug in a pinch. Should there be some number of Lotus Petals in there?

#4 How is the matchups for this deck? I've heard the deck has a nice Threshold matchup (which is important for me, since my meta consist a lot by Threshold) and are quite good at combating other Agro decks and to some extent control decks.

#5 Any secret tech to share? =)

[Derklord]

Q: I have a Bridge from Below in my graveyard, and my opponent has a Yixlid Jailer in play [what happens, when i kill the Jailer] (...).

A: The Bridge from Below ability will not trigger. Bridge from Below has two leaves-play triggered abilities (How leaves-play abilities work is covered in section 410.10d). Whenever an event occurs in Magic, the game will look at the game state just prior to that event to see if any leaves-play triggered abilities triggered. This means that you check to see if the Bridge from Below's abilities triggered just before the Yixlid Jailer went to the graveyard. At that time Bridge from Below did not have any abilities, so there was nothing to trigger.

@Mordenkain: -1 Putrid Imp -1 Golgari Thug +2 Gamble is what my list looks like compared to yours.


p.s.: I love Needle... best answer to Crypt.

[Lemuria]

You know, Putrid Imp is a Giant, I would not run less then 3.

My config is: -1 thug, -1 Deep Analysis, -1 Land (11 land has did absolutely fine for me, no complaints) +3 Gamble.

[spirit of the wretch]

Hi, first of all, sorry if my English isn't all that great, it's not my native language.

I played this deck for the best time of the last 4 months.
I was in content for Top 8 at the German Legacy Championship until I scrubbed out the very last round against Landstill (which was quite embarrassing).
Last saturday I took the deck to one of the bigger monthly Legacy tournaments in Iserlohn and went undefeated 7/0/0 smashing:

1. Baseruption 2:1
2. B/U/G Control 2:0
3. Fearie Stompy 2:1
4. B/G Loam Control 2:1 (first game he starts with his maindeck Leyline...)
5. Cephalid Breakfast 2:0
6. U/W Landstill 2:0
7. Y&Y Aggro 2:1

For the references, this is the list I ran in Iserlohn:

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalide Coliseum

4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalide Sage

4x Breaktgrough
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Deep Analysis
2x Gamble
2x Dread Returns

4x Bridge from Below
4x LED

SB:
4x Leyline
4x Chain
4x Needle
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge

So Ichorid was obviopusly the right choice for these Matchups.

The thing I wondered about was, just how necessary do you think the "combo" part of this deck (in my case 2x Dread Return, the Sage and the Zealot) is?
These four cards were the first to be boarded out every single round. I understand, that it may be quite useful against fast combo (TES, Belcher and so on) to win on the spot, but even in these MU you're probably only winning if you manage to dredge away most of your library and by that time you should be able to rape their hand with therapies, making a fair amount of zombies in the process and killing next turn.
So the question is, whether there are more useful cards for those slots.
What do you guys think on that topic?

[APriestOfGix]

Hi, first of all, sorry if my English isn't all that great, it's not my native language.

Welcome to the Source!

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

@spirit of the wretch:
I also played in Iserlohn wit Ichorid, went 4-3... Here is the list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge


This were the decks I played against:
CounterSliver (2:1)
Rock (2:0)
Zoo (2:0)
Cephalid Breakfast (0:2)
Loam Pox (Leyline in the Main ~~) (2:1)
Pikula without LD (0:2) (in the 2. game I dredged about 50% in my first turn, then he plays Crypt an removed it all...)
Mirror (1:2)

I think I saw you, spirit :). I always was on the higher tables :).

€:// I haven't played Gamble, it was an newer version of the deck...

[Lukas Preuss]

Funny, I also played Ichorid in Iserlohn, and went 4-3. I lost to the Loam Pox guy with maindeck Leyline 1-2, though. :)

Unfortunatelly, I wasn't very familiar with the deck since I had just picked it up a few days ago. Had I had more experience, I could have easily gone 5-2 or 6-1, I think. The meta was just right for Ichorid, many Aggro Control decks and some Control and Combo. There were quite a few Ichorid decks at the top tables. Congratulations to you, spirit of the wretch!

My maindeck was a mixture between you two: 2 Gamble, but I only run 3 Putrid Imp and 1 Cephalid Sage. I too found the Dread Return/Sage/Zealot combo quite underwhelming, as well (maybe because I played against aggro Control mainly), but I'm not sure if it might be better to replace those 5 slots in the maindeck with something else.

[Tacosnape]

I personally don't like Cephalid Sage, so I cut down to the bare minimum for Dread Return - 2 Dreads and 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. However, I do acknowledge that Cephalid Sage is completely ridiculous in the right scenario, and it takes a good start and turns it into a lethal start. It does nothing to change a bad start into a good start, however. The trick to Ichorid is finding the right balance. (Translation: I reserve the right to re-include the Sage at a later date without sounding like an idiot.)

I think Dread Return is too versatile to cut. I've had several games where the FKZ combo finished someone off before they could recover, and also where Dread Return got me enough zombies to Survive, or got me a gigantic Golgari Grave-Troll to pound through Ghostly Prison or Elephant Grass.

I also don't recommend ever dropping below four Putrid Imps. Imp is incredible if you don't get a diamond, allowing you to hit your second land drop, repeatedly ditch Grave-Trolls and Deep Analyses, and highly importantly, fly for 2. I've won a lot of ground stalemates by sending Imps and Narcomoebas over people's heads. Not to mention, unlike a lot of options, Putrid Imp is still good in the graveyard for the purpose of feeding Teh Ichroidz.

[Bane of the Living]

Well I scrubbed out pretty bad at the EPIC DLD this weekend. We ended up driving north to Essex/Montreal instead of West to Buffalo and I drove an extra 200 miles or so. We slept in my car, if you can call that sleep so I was myself a zombie while playing this deck. Its been a few days but heres what I remember..

First my list was the standard with 3 Dread, 1 Sage, 3 Imp, 2 Gamble, 4 Therapy. My sb was 4 LotV, 4 Chalice of the Void, 1 Undiscovered Paradise, 3 Chain of Vapor, 2 Ray of Revalation, 1 Angel of Despair.

Round 1. Dryad Sligh (made top 8)
Game one I mulligan to 4 cards on the draw. I keep a hand of LED, Breakthrough, City, Troll. I rip Stinkweed off the top and smash him into the dirt. Turn one win.

Game two he gets 2 Mogg Fanatics and I couldnt play around both before his burn toasts me.

Game three goes similar, he gets a Crypt and I attack him with a Meoba and 4 Ichy down to 2 life. He top decks the burn he needs on his last turn alive and Fireblasts me. I think I may have won this if I therapied his Fireblast, forcing him to play it early. Unforturnatley I sbed out half of them.

Round 2 Fakespam
He opens with a blue fetch and I go for the turn one kill. I see no FoW when I drop LED and proceed to get the turn one kill again. I dont even know what hes playing. I forgot to therapy him. Fearing Leylines I go with 3 Chain of Vapor.

Turns out he's playing a Magus of the Moon 3c fish deck. He gets Jitte online game 2 I think.... I get my start forced and he squeaks out a win with bobvantage. Game three I get a very late kill with Grave Troll.

Round 3 I think I play against Tariq with black white landstill.
Hes on the draw and opens with a blue fetch. I have yet another turn 1 kill but decided to play it around Daze. I go for turn 3 kill when I realize he's playing Landstill. Shame. I couldve killed all my opponents turn 1 for three rounds!

Game 2 I sb in Chain of Vapors for Leyline. He keeps a hand of 1 land 3 Extirpates and wins obviously. I conceed as we get closer to time since my long strive to victory becomes too tedious. I take CoV out for Chalice of the Void.

Game three he gets another amazing opener. I have 2 Chalice and combocentral in my hand. I play the first and it gets Forced. He proceeds to Exi my Chalice that he just FoW'ed and takes the one in my hand. I start to slow roll him and he drops an Explosives for 0. I try to activate coliseum but he stifles two of them! I get 8 zombies and he blows the explosives. I get Bridge Extirpated and he drops Engineered Explosives on Horrors. I manage to dredge into 2 meobas and cast a thug to dread return a 14/14 troll. He blocks for two turns with Factories. Takes 14 and goes to 4. Then he WoG's. WTF??
I jokingly regenerate the troll. I get a meoba off the top and beat down with it for a turn. Then I dredge back a thug leaving me two cards in lib. I thought I could get the kill before he finds a swords or something. I run out of cards to draw. Im such a loser.. Mistakes all day.

Round 4 I get matched against an older guy not familar with the Gobs deck hes running. I take game one I think. sb in Leylines and lose, then win game three. Or something..

Round 5 I really cant remember what the hell else I played against but I lost to it and dropped to drink with Mr Nightmare and my woman.

I was still impressed with the deck despite my record. I made alot of play mistakes since I was so burnt out and tired.

Glad to see its picking up love in Germany. Its the perfect deck for your meta.

[Soto]

I just gold fished this list 10 times on MWS:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [7E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
2 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [US] Gamble

I didn't mulligan once. I had turn two wins 4 times, turn three wins 4 times, and turn four wins twice. I'm really starting to like this deck. Perhaps I'm just lucky.

[Jaynel]

Ha! I was just playing that exact same list, and I pretty much came to an identical conclusion. Gamble makes the deck a lot more consistant, acting as LED/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum 5 and 6. The only problem I ever encountered was not hitting a Sage or a Flamekin and having to pass the turn with usually ~10-15 cards left in my library. I guess that's just bad luck though.

[kikkofrio]

Sorry, it's only an idea, but, i'm not a ichorid player, but...

...This deck is now a combo deck...
...what do u think about put in 3 slot kiki-karmic-hussar kill?

[Brehn]

Why would 3 slots for Kiki-Karmic-Hussar be better than 1 slot for FKZ?

[kikkofrio]

not in alternative...togheter...

[Brehn]

When you have 3 creatures in play and a Dread Return + FKZ or Sage in your graveyard, you're usually winning. If you are not, the 4-card-combo (wtf) of Return+Hussar+Guide+Kiki-Jiki (how can you get 4 cards in your graveyard reliably?) would not help either in 98% of the situations. Horrible idea, this deck already is tight on slots.

[Nightmare]

Basically, the difference between this deck utilizing the SH/KJ/KG combo and Breakfast doing it is a measure of the way the deck utilizes the graveyard. With Breakfast, you have a repeatable loop that dumps your whole deck (or as much of it as you need) into your graveyard all at once. With this deck, it's an incrimental process, which means you can't be guaranteed to hit all the pieces you need in a timely fashion. For this reason, it's more successful to have a deck full of redundancy and one "win condition" as opposed to some form of toolbox. It's rather simple to eventually find a one of, it's much harder to find three of them.

[spirit of the wretch]

The space in this deck is already tight enough. I don't think it's a good idea to add more cards to the deck that just seem like "win-more".
I will start testing the following changes:
The list I played at Iserlohn
-2x Dread Return
-1x Sage
-1x Zealot

As mentioned above I don't think the combo kill is necessary in this deck.

+1x Undiscovered Paradise
+1x Thug
+2x Gamble

A full set of Gambles and an additional land should make the deck more reliable and consistent. I often felt I needed more land especially post board and to cast DA without LED.

[b4r0n]

Doesn't cutting FKZ slow you down by a whole turn? You may be slightly more consistent, but losing that speed seems bad. Same with Sage; it lets you dredge an additional 12-18 cards and hit the remaining cards that you need. I can understand boarding out the Dread Return package in some matchups (like Threshold), but cutting it from the deck entirely seems sub-optimal.

Gamble seems really strong. The card is perfect for the deck.

[Lukas Preuss]

I have been thinking about cutting the Dread Return combo from the deck, as well, but this is mainly, because our German meta is infested with Aggro Control. You don't have to be breathtakingly fast, it is better to be overall consistent. In this matchup, it doesn't matter if you're a turn slower since you just rip their hand apart with Cabal Therapy, have a horde of zombies and win on the next turn.

But I'm afraid that I will miss those sac outlets in the deck. I have often found myself to flashback Dread Return mainly to sacrifice some creatures to get a bunch of zombies. This would be very hard if you cut Dread Return, Cabal Therapy won't be enough. Any thoughts on that?

[BreathWeapon]

Any one else try cutting Deep Analysis for Careful Study?