[Deck] Ichorid

[Muradin]

I don't think that the Dred Returns combo should be entirely cut from the deck.
It makes you faster and provides you with sacrifice outlets for your Nacromoebas. At least 1 Flame Kin Zealot and 2 Dread Returns should remain in the deck in my oppinion. Every deck should be happy to improve it's speed by 1-2 turns just by adding 3 cards you even don't have to pay mana for.
Then I don't know why all of you suppose Gamble to be all that great. It searches for a card(if you have one of your 8 rainbowlands) and then you have a 20 % chance of having to discard exactly the card you did search for. In many cases there may be other cards you'd like to discard(mainly dredgers) but there are often only a few cards left you could discard. I think Gamble doesn't make this deck more consistant but rather more luck dependant.
When I tried it Careful study was much better than Gamble as it can be played with a Cephalid Coliseum and acts as search, discard outlet, carddraw for dredges and handfixing. I think that there must be a reason its always a 4-of in all Extended lists. In a format with that many active pros this card must probably be good as well in legacy, despite of the differences in the powerlevel and the cardpool. The last few free slots are supposed to fix consistancy issues, and that is what Careful Study is really good at because it's just so versatile in this deck.

@ BreathWeapon: I did cut 1 Dread Returns, 1 Cephalid Sage, 2 Gamble for the Careful Study's in comparison to the other builds. Furthermore I added one more land to make sure I get the mana I need to cast 4 more cards you actually have to pay for.

[Jaynel]

Is Careful Study used as a discard outlet or used to dredge cards? If it's the latter, it seems like Brainstorm would be much better (instant speed, puts back Narcomoeba). If it's the former, it seems like Gamble would be better because you get 1 card that you need instead of 2 random cards that may or may not help you.

[Bovinious]

Cutting the Returns package for 1 PImp, 1 Thug, 1 Paradise, 2 Gamble is interesting, it takes away some of the game 1 explosiveness, but would probably be better for games 2-3 as Dread Returns package is almost always sided out. Once I find my other 2 Gambles I think ill test out this a bit, seems worth a try at least.

[Tacosnape]

Alright, a ton of points:

1. Cutting Dread Return is a bad idea, I feel. Dread Return gives the deck a whole dimension it lacks otherwise, namely insane Zombie Generation and a large Golgari Grave-Troll when necessary. It's worth noting that you can cut Flame-Kin Zealot without cutting Dread Return.

2. You shouldn't run Gamble with only 8 Rainbow Lands. I run 10 and a playset of Gamble.

3. The main reason to run Gamble is that it gives you terrific sideboard options. You can now sneak random 1-ofs like Chalice, Needle, Volcanic Spray, and so forth in the deck for certain situations. This allows you to board in anti-hate cards without necessarily having to know what your opponent is boarding in against you.

4. The deck, pre-Gamble, needed more things to do on turn one if you don't have the broken draw. Therefore I think Careful Study is not a replacment for Deep Analysis, but a replacement for Gamble. Study is easier to cast and can do ridiculous shit like draw two, discard Troll and DA, and then go crazy next turn. Gamble and Study don't belong in the same build, but I've come to the conclusion that one of the two does in fact belong in the deck. It's also worth noting that Study can dredge in a pinch off Study/LED, often hitting Deep Analysis mid-dredge for insanity.

So here would be my two builds as of now:

GAMBLE ICHORID:

3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Gamble
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ray of Revelation
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Volcanic Spray



STUDY ICHORID:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Careful Study
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
3 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Ray of Revelation
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Volcanic Spray

[Bovinious]

Less than 4 Breakthrough/Coliseum seems really bad, also going below 11 dredgers is questionable as well. Im not sure cutting the Dread Return package is right either, but keeping them in at that expenseive seems wrong for sure imo.

[Jaynel]

Post-Lorwyn, is it necessary to run Crippling Fatigue in the sideboard to take care of Gaddock Teeg? Should we side out Dread Return if we suspect him coming in games 2 and 3? Are there better answers to him?

[DragoFireheart]

Post-Lorwyn, is it necessary to run Crippling Fatigue in the sideboard to take care of Gaddock Teeg? Should we side out Dread Return if we suspect him coming in games 2 and 3? Are there better answers to him?

If Gaddock Teeg is being used why not just simply do Ichorid beat-down? Remember that Gaddock will disable some of their spells and will more than likely hurt them more than you.

[Bryant Cook]

Less than four Dread Return is a mistake. It decreases the turn 1/2 win consistancy way too much to cut it, I also agree with who ever said less than 4 Coliseum/4 Breakthrough is a mistake.

[DURESSyou92]

would it be possible to have gamble in the SB?:

1x Pithing Needle
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Volcanic Spray
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Undiscovered Paradise
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Gamble

[Jaynel]

Seems better to have Gamble in the maindeck to absolutely blow other decks out game 1, then side them out (if necessary) in games 2 and 3 for anti-hate stuff.

[Tacosnape]

Actually it's entirely possible D-92 (I have no idea how else to shorten your name to a nickname. Calling you Duress could be confusing. D-92 Sounds like a rapper or something called out in a Bingo hall.) is on to something. I find Careful Study to be stronger than Gamble game 1, but I really miss Gamble when I need to find a Ray of Revelation or a Needle in a hurry.

And I really like that sideboard except for the lack of Chain of Vapor, but it's still pretty freaking good.

Volcanic Spray is too insane not to run. It can clear ETW tokens, Fanatics before you start going off, and hardcasting one against a Yixlid Jailer will cause some of the best facial expressions you will ever see.

[Bovinious]

1-2 Gamble SB was something I considered when I first discovered Gamble in this deck, but at the moment I just play playsets of Needle/Chain rather than play less of them and more Gambles, after all SOMETIMES Gamble has a drawback. Id rather focus on trying to fit more Gambles MD. I dont get all this talk of Careful Study, I'm pretty sure id rather Gamble for Breakthrough/LED every time...Also Volcanic Spray seems pretty mediocre, being a 1-of and costing 2, I dont think you will be able to cast it turn 2-3 to kill off ETW tokens very often at all.

[Tacosnape]

1-2 Gamble SB was something I considered when I first discovered Gamble in this deck, but at the moment I just play playsets of Needle/Chain rather than play less of them and more Gambles, after all SOMETIMES Gamble has a drawback. Id rather focus on trying to fit more Gambles MD. I dont get all this talk of Careful Study, I'm pretty sure id rather Gamble for Breakthrough/LED every time...Also Volcanic Spray seems pretty mediocre, being a 1-of and costing 2, I dont think you will be able to cast it turn 2-3 to kill off ETW tokens very often at all.

Why not?

Seriously, if you have to Gamble for LED/Breakthrough, then you're going to have a chance to hit a second land drop before you -do- the LED/Breakthrough, which will allow you to Flash Volcanic Spray if you need it.

Secondly, if you have Gamble and 2 lands, you can Gamble for the Spray turn one.

[Bovinious]

Well yeah if you actually draw 2 land, which is very hard with 12-14. Casting Breakthrough on turn 2 via land would leave 0-1 mana open, allowing a possible turn 3 Spray, but it seems to me a better plan would be just make a bunch of zombies and block. I guess its ok as a SB option if ETW is really prevalent, but I personally dont see a need for it.

[thelemite]

I playtested the Ichorid combo deck on MWS with some fairly good results. I took it to a tournament and realized that I was unprepared to deal with TES.

My build:

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Deep Analysis
1x Gamble
3x Dread Return

4x Bridge from Below
4x LED

SB:
3x Leyline
3x Chain
3x Needle
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Emerald Charm

Round 1- TES Game one- it out ran me to a Tendrils round 3.

Game two- Sided out FKZ and Dread for Chain of Vapor. Opening Leyline by the TES player, I had a chain in my hand and kept. Bounced the Leyline and still lost turn 2 to a Tendrils.

Round 2- No stick. Took it apart, killed on round 2-3. Sbed in Chains.

Round 3- Madness. First game it was a FKZ into a swarm of zombies for a 3 turn kill. Game 2 (no sb) was a round 4 smashing by a Dread Returned Grave troll.

Round 4- TES again. I win game one with a few well named therapies and Zombie horde. Games 2 and 3, I lose to extirpates and leylines.

I seemed a turn too slow to beat TES on the whole. Does anyone have any suggestions to assist this matchup? I was considering COTV as a potential SB card.

[Bovinious]

TES, and storm combo in general, is one of Ichorid's few bad matchups. I'd guess its something like 60-40 their favor, the only way to beat them is basically draw a turn 1-2 win, or dredge into Cabal Therapys and slow them down enough. At my local tourney last weekend I beat TES in top8 by dredging into 3 Cabal Therapies games 2 and 3, which was kind of lucky but I'll take it. Also, if they go for EtW, you can make some zombies and block, or SB 1 land and 1 Volcanic Spray. Pretty much just mulligan to a fast hand, hope they dont win turn 1, and hope you hit Cabal Therapy.

[BreathWeapon]

If you specifically want to hedge your Storm combo match up, SB Force of Will and play draw, discard, dredge until they try to go off with out protection. It's good for winning at least one game out of three and if you win game two it totally fucks with them game three whether or not you keep them in the MD or SB them back out.

As long as they don't hate you in the face with Leyline of the Void, I think you can secure the match with Force of Will in the SB.

[Bovinious]

4 Breakthrough, 4 Narcomoeba, 3 Deep Analysis, and 1 Cephalid Sage are the only blue cards MD, so unless your siding in additional blue cards (like Chain of Vapor, I guess) in addition to FoW I'm not sure this is very reliable. Seems interesting, but I'd rather just try and race since they rarely win turn 1, unless you have extra SB space for a playset of FoW.

[BreathWeapon]

4 Breakthrough, 4 Narcomoeba, 3 Deep Analysis, and 1 Cephalid Sage are the only blue cards MD, so unless your siding in additional blue cards (like Chain of Vapor, I guess) in addition to FoW I'm not sure this is very reliable. Seems interesting, but I'd rather just try and race since they rarely win turn 1, unless you have extra SB space for a playset of FoW.


You only need about 16 blue cards to support Force of Will. The plan has worked for me in the past, because it has so much shock value, but you may just be better off SBing Chalice of the Void and keeping it simple.

[Bovinious]

Does the 16 include FoW itself? I realize that with Chain of Vapor SB as well you're just at a minimum amount of blue cards, but its by no means as much as other decks running FOW that can cast it consistently, also, Id almost never want to pitch Breakthrough. Chalice seems alright as well as an answer.

[BreathWeapon]

Does the 16 include FoW itself? I realize that with Chain of Vapor SB as well you're just at a minimum amount of blue cards, but its by no means as much as other decks running FOW that can cast it consistently, also, Id almost never want to pitch Breakthrough. Chalice seems alright as well as an answer.

Yes, it includes FoW itself, and even tho' 16 blue cards seems low in this format for FoW, if you've played Vintage, it's the standard for including FoW in combo decks. Whether or not you want to RFG Breakthrough is irrelevant, if you can trade 2 cards in exchange for your opponent's entire hand and not immediately losing the game, I'd RFG Ancestral Recall if I had to.

[Tacosnape]

I'm not quite to the point of tossing my support behind Force of Will, but if it comes down to a choice of pitching Breakthrough or letting someone resolve Crypt/Planar Void/Something Else on turn one, I'd take pitching Breakthrough.

I think what will ultimately keep Force out, however, is Leyline of the Void. This prevents Force from actually solving the whole problem of never knowing exactly what to board in, as Force can't stop Leyline.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not quite to the point of tossing my support behind Force of Will, but if it comes down to a choice of pitching Breakthrough or letting someone resolve Crypt/Planar Void/Something Else on turn one, I'd take pitching Breakthrough.

I think what will ultimately keep Force out, however, is Leyline of the Void. This prevents Force from actually solving the whole problem of never knowing exactly what to board in, as Force can't stop Leyline.

You missed the point, FoW isn't SBed in as an answer to the opponent's hate, FoW is SBed in as a bullet to the opponent's strategy (LED + FoW=Mind Twist). You certainly could SB in FoW to deal with the opponent's hate, but FoW is to Storm combo as Leyline is to Graveyard combo, you just want to SB the card in and take your free win. FoW may or may not be good against the opponent's hate and Leyline may or may not be good against Mogg Fanatic etc. but regardless it's an incidental consideration in this case.

[Bane of the Living]

I playtested the Ichorid combo deck on MWS with some fairly good results. I took it to a tournament and realized that I was unprepared to deal with TES.

My build:

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x Breakthrough
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Deep Analysis
1x Gamble
3x Dread Return

4x Bridge from Below
4x LED

SB:
3x Leyline
3x Chain
3x Needle
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Emerald Charm

Round 1- TES Game one- it out ran me to a Tendrils round 3.

Game two- Sided out FKZ and Dread for Chain of Vapor. Opening Leyline by the TES player, I had a chain in my hand and kept. Bounced the Leyline and still lost turn 2 to a Tendrils.

Round 2- No stick. Took it apart, killed on round 2-3. Sbed in Chains.

Round 3- Madness. First game it was a FKZ into a swarm of zombies for a 3 turn kill. Game 2 (no sb) was a round 4 smashing by a Dread Returned Grave troll.

Round 4- TES again. I win game one with a few well named therapies and Zombie horde. Games 2 and 3, I lose to extirpates and leylines.

I seemed a turn too slow to beat TES on the whole. Does anyone have any suggestions to assist this matchup? I was considering COTV as a potential SB card.

Well his turn 3 kill happens. You had at least 2 turns to finish him off which means mulligans should be important to you here. Also, never sb out Zealot against combo. It makes your clock a turn faster. When your playing against a deck that has a win possibility turns 1-2 you should be concerned with racing them. I ususally only take out zealot in control matchs.

I play four Chalice of the Void in my current sb. It deals with TES quite well, especially when youre playing Gamble to make your virtual CotV count 6-7. Chalice also handles Extirpate which you should be more concerned with frankly. All current landstill decks pack it and most black aggro decks do as well. Leyline isnt the favored approach to combat this deck. Just since its the best doesnt mean people are willing to make accomidations for it.

The "TES" deck you played against second doesnt sound like your run of the mill build. Most versions utilize the sb space for wish targets, Shattering Sprees, and REBs.

You have way too much Leyline hate in your board. Get your fourth Leyline in there and consider CotV. Good luck.

Regarding Force of Will.
Instead of arguing against Breathweapon I recommend you just listen to the people that are seasoned with the deck. Force of Will is awfull against Tormods Crypt since you can often just play through it or go for 1 for 1 trades against it. (Ancient Grudge, Chain of Vapor) Even better Pithing Needle goes 1 for 4 against crypt.

Force does nothing at all against Extirpate and becomes useless if a TES player simply Chants you first. Is this 'element of surprise' really worth the wasted sb slots and possibility of not having the blue card? NO.

Force does nothing against Leyline.

Chalice of the Void is amazing against Extirpate, amazing against Tormods Crypt, and amazing against any deck you play against that has 15+ 1cc cards in it.

The fact that CotV is free makes it actually synergistic with your deck..

Do I need to go on?

Here is my current sb for reference.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Pithing Needle

[FakeSpam]

You missed the point, FoW isn't SBed in as an answer to the opponent's hate, FoW is SBed in as a bullet to the opponent's strategy (LED + FoW=Mind Twist). You certainly could SB in FoW to deal with the opponent's hate, but FoW is to Storm combo as Leyline is to Graveyard combo, you just want to SB the card in and take your free win. FoW may or may not be good against the opponent's hate and Leyline may or may not be good against Mogg Fanatic etc. but regardless it's an incidental consideration in this case.

I have no clue what you just said.

[Berzerked]

He is saying that you don't SB FoW to fight their hate, you board it in to fight their combo. Just like they are boarding LotV to fight your combo.
Game2 they are going to combo out as soon as possible, and if you can pull off countering the right stuff, they are pretty stuck, while you either win, or find a Chain for the Lleyline and then win. Whether or not you bring in FoW, a resolved Lleyline is a beast to win through, especially when they can combo whenever because you're unable to apply any pressure. If you can stop their combo, however, LotV becomes easier to deal with, as you aren't pressed as hard for time.

[BreathWeapon]

He is saying that you don't SB FoW to fight their hate, you board it in to fight their combo. Just like they are boarding LotV to fight your combo.
Game2 they are going to combo out as soon as possible, and if you can pull off countering the right stuff, they are pretty stuck, while you either win, or find a Chain for the Lleyline and then win. Whether or not you bring in FoW, a resolved Lleyline is a beast to win through, especially when they can combo whenever because you're unable to apply any pressure. If you can stop their combo, however, LotV becomes easier to deal with, as you aren't pressed as hard for time.

If Storm combo SBs in Leyline of the Void, I think your just legitimately fucked. There's no way you can answer their Leyline of the Void and then stop them from going off in the mean time. Even if you do catch them off guard with FoW, they'll probably be able to rebuild before you can. That said, I don't know any one who SBs Leyline of the Void in TES or Belcher other than me, so consider yourselves lucky that this is never going to happen to you any way.

@BOTL, you may actually want to play with Force of Will against Storm combo before you claim it's worthless. It's the only card that will stop them from forcing you to scoop before you get to draw a card, and if they have to cast Xantid Swarm or Orim's Chant before they go off, it's either a virtual Time Walk or a Daze regardless of whether or not its in your hand, and if you do counter either card they can't necessarily risk the IGG chain. You can go for the ad hominem attack all you want, but I'm pretty sure people can see Force of Will for what it is and decide for themselves whether or not its worth it in a Storm combo meta (wherever that may be) or against Storm combo on the final tables. Even if you are playing with Chalice of the Void, if you lose the coin flip, you may have already lost the match. Of course Force of Will isn't as good as other answers against hate cards, but other answers aren't as good against combo or protect you from hate resolving in the first place. Scoff at it all you want, but Force of Will offers the deck a measure of protection that no other card can offer in its place, which makes it a card that people need to measure on its own merits.

[T_B]

I seemed a turn too slow to beat TES on the whole. Does anyone have any suggestions to assist this matchup? I was considering COTV as a potential SB card.

My board's plan against both Crypt and TES has been CotV. You need it very quickly against Tormods C, but it will work often. It is also mostly free, as you rarely put it at anything other than 0 against TC, but against storm you can do whatever, probably something like 0-1, even though 1 takes out your therapies. Probably 0 still.

[Jaynel]

I'm pretty sure Bane's right on this one, and Force really has no place in the sideboard. It's already pretty tight.

Chalice comes in against both Storm combo and decks siding in Crypt when you're on the play (usually game 3, if anything). Pithing Needle handles Crypt better than Chalice when you're on the draw. Leyline comes in against most aggro and heavily graveyard-based decks. Chain of Vapor comes in if you suspect an enemy Leyline game 2 (decks running black), or in game 3 if you saw a Leyline game 2.

The rest of the slots (usually 1-2) I run Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation.

Something like:
4 Leyline
4 Chalice
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Needle
2 Ancient Grudge

[Tacosnape]

My board's plan against both Crypt and TES has been CotV. You need it very quickly against Tormods C, but it will work often. It is also mostly free, as you rarely put it at anything other than 0 against TC, but against storm you can do whatever, probably something like 0-1, even though 1 takes out your therapies. Probably 0 still.

Chalice-1 doesn't take out your Therapies for the purpose of making zombie tokens really quickly, however. Seriously, though? Who the hell is playing Chalice for 1 in this deck? In what situation would you possibly want to do this?

Ray of Revelation keeps getting underrated, too. It hits Leyline from the hand, it can hit anything else from the yard, including Plague, Elephant Grass, Ghostly Prison, and even including Planar Void off one land and a discard effect or no land and a Diamond.

[Happy Gilmore]

I have never played Ichorid in tournament. Could someone explain the side boarding strategy against the major decks? It seems very difficult to figure out what to cut.

edit: Although I can't really understand what Breathweapon is trying to say, he may be on to something with FOW out of the board. Its free, can answer atlealt one piece of hate, or stop combo from going off.

[Bovinious]

Against decks that arnt fast combo you SB out the Dread Returns, Flame-kin Zealot and Cephalid Sage, then usually some number of Golgari Thugs/Putrid Imps/Deep Analysis/Ichorid, depending on the matchup. Its usually just basically SB out the DR combo when you dont need to win super fast, and water down a little bit in other places.

[spirit of the wretch]

Yeah, you cut the combo package against every deck that can't kill you before turn 4 (every Non-Combo.dec). Against black decks you have to side in the Chains and Rays, just because they may be siding in Leyline (which would totally fuck you otherwise). Against other decks you always side in the Chalice/Needles against Crypts.

[Lemuria]

I've been playtesting against Threshold, and I'm pretty satisfied with the MUs. I've learned how to fight through counters and even under pressure of Goyfs. You can go via Friggorid, dredging slowly, then, you therapy them to death, reanimate Teh Zealotz0rs if needed and go for the lethal blow. Yo can also reanimate a Big Bad Golgari Troll, but it wasn't necessary on the games I've played. Ichorids do the job very fine.

Since you rarely will combo them, you cut the combo part on the next games.


Anyway, I'm really really happy with this deck and how it can be extremly brutal.

[Bovinious]

The good Thresh matchup, and Landstill matchup as well, is one of the biggest reasons to play this deck. Against these decks you can pretty much go EOT discard mode and never have to resolve a spell, although flashing back Therapy is usually helpful. Goyf really isnt much of a threat unless you have no clock, because you just chump block it all day with zombies and it will never die removing your bridges.

[Bane of the Living]

Its worth noting that it is possible to drop Chalice for one so its still worth siding in against thresh over Pithing Needle game 2(on the draw). A single crypt wont kill you but multiples will and they have tons of draw.

Needle is bad in multiples and easier to counter. Chalice can be set at zero then one.

Oh and your matchup against Landstill isnt as good as you think if your not playing Chalice. Extirpate in multiples and along with Explosives/Engineered Plague/ ect can just tear you apart if you walk into the matchup unprepared.

You dont need FoW just because of TES. Thats retarded. Only Bryant wins with it anyways.

[Bane of the Living]

So this deck made it to the Decks to Beat forum. Did it suddenly lose its flair? Ive noticed a hell of a lot more graveyard hate recently which has put the deck in the back seat for me. Its easy enough to fight through usually but its just a pain in the ass when your seeing Leyline of the Voids maindecked in your local meta.

The deck needs a way to answer Gaddock Teeg because he can really ruin your gameplan if your not prepared. Hell Im wondering if the best way to work around him is by sideboarding out all your dread returns and DA's.

[TheRock]

I don't think the deck has any "flair", so to speak. My guess is that there hasn't been a need to innovate with this deck all that much.

Still, it's not like this deck has really HAD to innovate or anything, but lots of Leylines will probably make any Ichorid player wonder.

Many decks that pack Teegs are usually slow to the point where this deck can wait to win and then just go on a one turn killing spree. Wouldn't Cabal Therapy, Chain of Vapor, and Gamble usually be enough - all you would have to do is make sure your Chain resolves and then let FKZ do the rest.

My thought (while it may not be right) is this: if you side out DRs, FKZ, and Sage against the Teeg-filled deck, then you have to win with 2/2s and 3/1s. Without Leylines, that's just a disaster (or a block) waiting to happen. Even with Leylines, you still have to win a race against a deck that probably has Tarmogoyf, graveyard removal, and/or Engineered Explosives.

For Teeg, wouldn't siding out the Deep Anals and like a Thug be better most times, or it this a deck that I'm missing?

[godryk]

I'm not an expert, but I'm just wondering if Crippling Fatigue can be a valid answer to Gaddock Teeg if necessary. We can just dredge all our deck and then sending him to the graveyard. Anyway gambling for chain of vapor can still be a valid plan.

[Adan]

The deck needs a way to answer Gaddock Teeg because he can really ruin your gameplan if your not prepared. Hell Im wondering if the best way to work around him is by sideboarding out all your dread returns and DA's.

Surprised to here something like that from you, the Ichorid-Man himself!:laugh: Since when does Gaddock Teeg ruins your gameplan?
The opponent has to cast him BEFORE you are doing that LED-Breakthrough-DA thingy. And if he casts a 1st Turn Gaddock Teeg -> EOT-Discard.

Gaddock Teeg is also just a cards for aggrocontrol-decks. And you normally beat those decks. So in my opinion, Gaddock Teeg is a card you don't need to worry about. I also thing Meddling Mage on Cabal Therapy hurts much more than Gaddock Teeg.

[Bane of the Living]

Surprised to here something like that from you, the Ichorid-Man himself!:laugh: Since when does Gaddock Teeg ruins your gameplan?
The opponent has to cast him BEFORE you are doing that LED-Breakthrough-DA thingy. And if he casts a 1st Turn Gaddock Teeg -> EOT-Discard.

Gaddock Teeg is also just a cards for aggrocontrol-decks. And you normally beat those decks. So in my opinion, Gaddock Teeg is a card you don't need to worry about. I also thing Meddling Mage on Cabal Therapy hurts much more than Gaddock Teeg.

Meddling Mage on Therapy can be bad but you still have Dread Return and Ichorid for zombie production. Mr T can ruin your late game dredging from Deep Analysis and shutting down your reanimation strategy, something often very powerfull against Thresh. When coupled with Counterbalance its just as bad as Mage also naming Therapy.

On another note, I was a fool to play Geddon Stax over Ichorid at the mana leak.

[Bovinious]

On another note, I was a fool to play Geddon Stax over Ichorid at the mana leak.

Yeah I was reading a tourney report and someone said you playing some stax deck not Ichorid, bad times I'm sure. :(

[Bane of the Living]

Yeah I was reading a tourney report and someone said you playing some stax deck not Ichorid, bad times I'm sure. :(

4c Thresh
B Thresh
U/W Landstill
TES
Survival
Cephalid Breakfast

Those are the decks I played against. An amazing metagame for Ichy. The only match I wouldve had more trouble with than less wouldve been TES. I only saw one guy there playing Ichorid but he said he wasnt registered here. I have no ideawhat he played against but he didnt do that hot.

[Soto]

Hey, I just got back from our weekly legacy thursday here in Montreal. I rolled with Ichorid. Turnout was extreme at 32 but it's a shame there was no cut to top 3 let alone 8. It was just 4 rounds and whoever had best rank at the end won a few boosters. Playing was free.

Anyway, so I rolled with Ichorid, usual list with 2 Gambles. Sideboard contained Leylines, Chalices (should've been pithing needles), chain of vapors, ray of revelation.

1st round (some kind of slow T2 deck with Vorosh) not registered

Game one:Turn two in off LED+Breakthrough+Deep Analysis.
Game two: I mulligan into oblivion (when I should have kept my 7 card hand :( ) he beats with double strike 12/12 Vorosh.
Game three: Turn two or three win.

2nd Round (Goyf Rack) not registered

I win in 3 games. I can't remember many details, only he didn't have Leylines or Tormod's Crypt in the board so the games my draws didn't absolutely suck, I won. He extirpated Bridge from Below once or twice. Rack is a real beating against Ichorid. 3 Dmg a turn is sweet. I won last game at 1 life.

3rd round (UGr Thresh) not registered

His first time playing Thresh, his MD was tuned, but the sideboard was bad. I won in two without any trouble.

4th round (UGr Thresh) aTn

Very experienced in general but mostly Thresh player. I won the first match obv. Second match i side in Chalice as I'm expecting Tormod's Crypt. I keep my opener as I can work on a turn three win, but he has Crypt to slow me down. He eventually brakes it. I think ı'm ok, but he drops two more the next turn.

Game three, he also sides in Krosan Grips which I really wasn't expecting. He has a slow start and so do I by mulliganing to 5 (LED,LED, GGT, SI, GThug). I draw go for a while not wanting to burn for 3 of the LED. I draw a chalice and play it for 0. Next turn he top decks krosan grip, brainstorms into double chalice and I scoop.

I finished 4th out of 32 so not bad, but had I played the second game of the last round a little better perhaps I would've done better. This deck seems to have alot of trouble against Tormod's Crypt, more even than LotV.

Thoughts?

[Bane of the Living]

Hey, I just got back from our weekly legacy thursday here in Montreal. I rolled with Ichorid. Turnout was extreme at 32 but it's a shame there was no cut to top 3 let alone 8. It was just 4 rounds and whoever had best rank at the end won a few boosters. Playing was free.

Anyway, so I rolled with Ichorid, usual list with 2 Gambles. Sideboard contained Leylines, Chalices (should've been pithing needles), chain of vapors, ray of revelation.

1st round (some kind of slow T2 deck with Vorosh) not registered

Game one:Turn two in off LED+Breakthrough+Deep Analysis.
Game two: I mulligan into oblivion (when I should have kept my 7 card hand :( ) he beats with double strike 12/12 Vorosh.
Game three: Turn two or three win.

2nd Round (Goyf Rack) not registered

I win in 3 games. I can't remember many details, only he didn't have Leylines or Tormod's Crypt in the board so the games my draws didn't absolutely suck, I won. He extirpated Bridge from Below once or twice. Rack is a real beating against Ichorid. 3 Dmg a turn is sweet. I won last game at 1 life.

3rd round (UGr Thresh) not registered

His first time playing Thresh, his MD was tuned, but the sideboard was bad. I won in two without any trouble.

4th round (UGr Thresh) aTn

Very experienced in general but mostly Thresh player. I won the first match obv. Second match i side in Chalice as I'm expecting Tormod's Crypt. I keep my opener as I can work on a turn three win, but he has Crypt to slow me down. He eventually brakes it. I think ı'm ok, but he drops two more the next turn.

Game three, he also sides in Krosan Grips which I really wasn't expecting. He has a slow start and so do I by mulliganing to 5 (LED,LED, GGT, SI, GThug). I draw go for a while not wanting to burn for 3 of the LED. I draw a chalice and play it for 0. Next turn he top decks krosan grip, brainstorms into double chalice and I scoop.

I finished 4th out of 32 so not bad, but had I played the second game of the last round a little better perhaps I would've done better. This deck seems to have alot of trouble against Tormod's Crypt, more even than LotV.

Thoughts?

I think you just need more experience with the deck. Like you said you probably shouldve kept the seven card hand so you could hit your discard phase. More often than not thats simply enough to take care of thresh unless they get the stone cold nuts against you.

Dont bother to weaken your engine to sb Chalice of the Void if your not on the play. Its only usefull if you can play it before they play the first crypt. I usually dont even side against thresh unless its on the play Chalice.

Crypt is fine if you learn how to play around it. Learn how to dredge in moderation and look for the key Putrid Imps that can set up situations where your opponent will be pressured to blow their crypts early. Dedicating too many Ichorids and Bridges to the yard at once is how you get hit too hard by Crypts.

Ive seasoned myself enough against Tormods to foresake the Pithing Needles in the board. After all they cost mana...

Remember you can utilize Chain of Vapor as a means to cripple Tormods. If you bounce it they can either nuke what you have in the bin at that moment or risk losing to hastey zombies or losing the returned crypt to a Cabal Therapy.

Look a couple pages back to see my sideboarding strategy with the deck as it might help you shore up problems you have with doing so.

[Zach Tartell]

I def. went back to page 19 and didn't see a boarding list.

Anyway, I'm in the 'Cuse meta, which means Landstill and decks built to beat it. I've heard that Ichorid steamrolls control, so I'm totally psyched to play it. The only problem is that both of the builds of Landstill (UWb or UWbg) run extirpate in their board. Is there some magical solution to that shit? Or do I just have to play with no bridges, ichorids, or deep analysis's?

[The Rack]

Alright guys so I've been reading and since lonelybaritone mentioned Extirpate, do you guys have a game against it? I think Groundseal could be a solution if you are running the 5 color manabase most are running and it cantrips into a dredgefest. This is kinda out of left field but it doesn't affect any of your own cards, I believe, and could help protect your graveyard from stuff. My 2 cents.

[Bovinious]

Extirpate isnt that bad, they really need to draw 2 of them in about 3-4 turns (one for Bridge, one for Ichorid) to beat you, and if you know its there you can therapy it away. If you run Chalice SB you could also possibly set it at 1, though I dont reccommend it.

[Tacosnape]

Alright guys so I've been reading and since lonelybaritone mentioned Extirpate, do you guys have a game against it? I think Groundseal could be a solution if you are running the 5 color manabase most are running and it cantrips into a dredgefest. This is kinda out of left field but it doesn't affect any of your own cards, I believe, and could help protect your graveyard from stuff. My 2 cents.

It's easier to get the mana for Chalice-1 than Ground Seal (:2: vs :1::g:), and Chalice 1 handles this problem just as effectively, while simultaneously taking care of Tormod's Crypt and being good against Storm Combo.

Plus, Ground Seal shuts off your own Dread Returns, although you'd likely be boarding this out.

In any case, Ground Seal's a no go. Chalice >> Ground Seal.

[Soto]

I think you just need more experience with the deck. Like you said you probably shouldve kept the seven card hand so you could hit your discard phase. More often than not thats simply enough to take care of thresh unless they get the stone cold nuts against you.

Well the hand I should've kept wasn't against thresh. The problem that I had against thresh was the triple tormod's crypt by turn 3... And you can't really set up plays with Putrid Imp when they have 4|4 Fire//Ice / Bolt.

[Ataxrxes]

I've read this thread a couple times but I can't remember if I have seen this addressed. Here is a hypothetical situation:

On the play game one you have an opening hand of Coliseum, LED, Breakthrough, GGT, Stinkweed Imp, and two random cards. Barring any disruption and your deck liking you, you can probably get a turn one or two win out of this. What is the correct play to make in this situation? Just go for it and hope they don't have active Force, or let them play a land next turn to give you better information but possibly duress you? Just something I was wondering after gold-fishing two opening hands like this on MWS this morning.

[Bovinious]

I've read this thread a couple times but I can't remember if I have seen this addressed. Here is a hypothetical situation:

On the play game one you have an opening hand of Coliseum, LED, Breakthrough, GGT, Stinkweed Imp, and two random cards. Barring any disruption and your deck liking you, you can probably get a turn one or two win out of this. What is the correct play to make in this situation? Just go for it and hope they don't have active Force, or let them play a land next turn to give you better information but possibly duress you? Just something I was wondering after gold-fishing two opening hands like this on MWS this morning.

If on the draw you could just drop LED, Coliseum, activate LED, activate Coliseum, have UU floating for a hopeful DA. On the play if you have no clue what your playing against it really is a judgement call, but it seems safer to wait a turn and use the Coliseum than go all out with a Breakthrough. You just go Coliseum, LED, and if they FOW LED you still can Breakthrough for like 10 cards to yard. I figure more decks will have FoW than kill you on turn 1, so with no info I'd say drop Coliseum, then LED, then say go and combo via Coliseum and hopefully DA next turn.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

If on the draw you could just drop LED, Coliseum, activate LED, activate Coliseum, have UU floating for a hopeful DA. On the play if you have no clue what your playing against it really is a judgement call, but it seems safer to wait a turn and use the Coliseum than go all out with a Breakthrough. You just go Coliseum, LED, and if they FOW LED you still can Breakthrough for like 10 cards to yard. I figure more decks will have FoW than kill you on turn 1, so with no info I'd say drop Coliseum, then LED, then say go and combo via Coliseum and hopefully DA next turn.

I say drop first LED than Coliseum, because if you drop the land first your opponent knows what you are playing, but with LED it could also be TES...

Its not that important but... ...i think its the better play!

[Bovinious]

Well I always drop land first so they cant Daze my LED, or at least so i"ll be able to pay 1, but if your on the play or they have any Islands/fetches out sure go LED first.

[Bane of the Living]

I say drop first LED than Coliseum, because if you drop the land first your opponent knows what you are playing, but with LED it could also be TES...

Its not that important but... ...i think its the better play!

This is a kick ass tactic but you need to do it right. Dont take this route if your opponent has a fetchland or island up to avoid being hit by daze. Otherwise yes pretend to be TES. This has absolutely bluffed me resolved LED's. This also has the advantage of keeping one more card in your hand to reach your discard phase. That can be important if the LED was your only discard outlet.

Seeing Islands if often enough to convince me to go to eight cards as it is. Starting with the slow role and dredging into Ichorid/Therapy to clear the way for the comboing.

[Jaynel]

Is it better to play or draw then against
A) an unknown opponent game 1?
B) an opponent playing Thresh game 2?

[Bane of the Living]

Its always better to play first game one because if your playing against other combo you want a head start. Theres also less of a chance (4 less cards) of seeing a Force of Will from your opponent.

After you know your opponent has islands always put yourself on the draw you want to draw into that Chain of Vapor/Pithing Needle and you really want to hit your discard phase.

If you know your opponent has Tormods Crypts coming in and you have the chance to play you should choose to go first since you want a Chalice set to zero to stop them from playing them.

Confusing I know.

[Jaynel]

After you know your opponent has islands always put yourself on the draw you want to draw into that Chain of Vapor/Pithing Needle and you really want to hit your discard phase.

If you know your opponent has Tormods Crypts coming in and you have the chance to play you should choose to go first since you want a Chalice set to zero to stop them from playing them.


Which overrules the other? Like Islands + Crypts: what happens then?

[Tacosnape]

I've read this thread a couple times but I can't remember if I have seen this addressed. Here is a hypothetical situation:

On the play game one you have an opening hand of Coliseum, LED, Breakthrough, GGT, Stinkweed Imp, and two random cards. Barring any disruption and your deck liking you, you can probably get a turn one or two win out of this. What is the correct play to make in this situation? Just go for it and hope they don't have active Force, or let them play a land next turn to give you better information but possibly duress you? Just something I was wondering after gold-fishing two opening hands like this on MWS this morning.

It heavily depends on if one of the random cards is a land. But you never ever fear Force of Will in a hand where you can play two hand-emptiers in the same turn. That hand -will- beat Threshold game 1 on the play unless they're holding double Force.

On the play, I would lead with the Lion's Eye Diamond blindly and see if it gets Forced. If it doesn't, I go Coliseum, Breakthrough, Crack LED. Even if Breakthrough gets Forced you're now in good position to begin your dredging next turn, which will usually be enough to beat Threshold and sometimes Landstill game 1. If they don't show a Force, go crazy, and you might win right off if you roll into a Deep Analysis.

If LED -does- get Forced, here's what I do, case by case.

Case 1: Neither of the random cards in my hand is a land or anything else remotely useful. I play Breakthrough for 0 and go for the slow dredge kill, which should be good enough against Threshold and often Landstill.

Case 2: One or more of the random cards in my hand is a land. I pass the turn, play a land next turn, and Breakthrough for 0 (Not 1, or walking into Daze/Snare will set you back several turns and could lose you the game.) This will allow you to activate your Coliseum or flash Deep Analysis on turn 2 (Dredge the Troll first to find out if you have DA available), and go to town.


Which overrules the other? Like Islands + Crypts: what happens then?

Crypts. Any time you get to game 3 after rolling your opponent game 1 and guessing wrong about their hate and losing to said hate game 2, which happens more often than not, it'll be your choice and you'll know what their hate is. At this point, you choose to play first if defending against their hate requires you go first via something like Chalice for 0.

[Bane of the Living]

It heavily depends on if one of the random cards is a land. But you never ever fear Force of Will in a hand where you can play two hand-emptiers in the same turn. That hand -will- beat Threshold game 1 on the play unless they're holding double Force.

On the play, I would lead with the Lion's Eye Diamond blindly and see if it gets Forced. If it doesn't, I go Coliseum, Breakthrough, Crack LED. Even if Breakthrough gets Forced you're now in good position to begin your dredging next turn, which will usually be enough to beat Threshold and sometimes Landstill game 1. If they don't show a Force, go crazy, and you might win right off if you roll into a Deep Analysis.

If LED -does- get Forced, here's what I do, case by case.

Case 1: Neither of the random cards in my hand is a land or anything else remotely useful. I play Breakthrough for 0 and go for the slow dredge kill, which should be good enough against Threshold and often Landstill.

Case 2: One or more of the random cards in my hand is a land. I pass the turn, play a land next turn, and Breakthrough for 0 (Not 1, or walking into Daze/Snare will set you back several turns and could lose you the game.) This will allow you to activate your Coliseum or flash Deep Analysis on turn 2 (Dredge the Troll first to find out if you have DA available), and go to town.



Crypts. Any time you get to game 3 after rolling your opponent game 1 and guessing wrong about their hate and losing to said hate game 2, which happens more often than not, it'll be your choice and you'll know what their hate is. At this point, you choose to play first if defending against their hate requires you go first via something like Chalice for 0.

Your a professional. Im hoping someone will do well with this deck soon, it only had some minor hits. I had to put it down in my local meta to let some of the smoke (and leylines) settle.

[e1567]

Hello everybody I have been reading the source for a while now and I figure it is about time to finally post.

I have been playing Ichorid ever since planar chaos came out and I think I do well with it. I think I am running the traditional list:

Lands

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures

4 Golgari Cave Trolls
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamonds

Other Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Bridge From Below

Side Board

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chalice of the void

The side board is tuned for an enviorment that has stax and multiple leylines. I am bringing this deck to the 40 dual lands tournament in Niles and I'm hoping I will do well.

So has anyone here tried this deck against stax I find I have lots of trouble against it. I wish I could find room for Ray of revelation in the side board to go against ghostly prison.

Does anyone have a suggestion on overall sideboard building I am thinking about taking out the leyline of the voids to make room for rays. Does Leyline help against any decks other than breakfast, spore frog lock and mirror? Any help will be much appreciated.

[Illissius]

Leyline is there to protect your Bridges. Any further detrimental effect on your opponent is happy coincidence.

[e1567]

Leyline is there to protect your Bridges. Any further detrimental effect on your opponent is happy coincidence.

That is true but with that thought set in your mind do you main deck leyline's?

Does anyone have a leyline MD list that they have tested well, I might take out putrid imp for 4 lotv. I really do like putrid imp but my main plan is to eot discard a dredger but i really like how he can slow roll your engine and then he is ichorid food.

Again I would be most appreciative for advice on building a side board.

[Bane of the Living]

You shouldnt maindeck Leyline if your meta is stax oriented. You should instead find the room for 1-2 Ray of Revations. If aggro like Affinity and Goblins arent a big worry for youthe Ray's can take their spots in the board or something.

[Lemuria]

Ray of Revelation should definitively be in the SB, as well as Ancient Grudge. I've seen many Leylines sbing against us, some Propaganda and Ghostly Prision, and also some Platinium Angel

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Hmmm i dont think ancient grudge is good in the sb!
There is no artifact that scares me (expet crypt) but grudge is not the best awnser to a crypt, because you have to hardcast it...
Other problems could be Ensnaring Bridge, Platinum Angel... But who plays that? And Bridge + Angel are 2 slow against you!

[Ataxrxes]

Hmmm i dont think ancient grudge is good in the sb!
There is no artifact that scares me (expet crypt) but grudge is not the best awnser to a crypt, because you have to hardcast it...
Other problems could be Ensnaring Bridge, Platinum Angel... But who plays that? And Bridge + Angel are 2 slow against you!

When you say hardcast do you mean play it from your hand? Because that's not true at all. If Ancient Grudge gets into your yard you are 100% certain to get rid of that crypt (barring countermagic or something). Either they sac the crypt then and there or you cast it before you attempt to fill up your yard and go off and they sac in response which hopefully leaves you free to do your thing.

[Lemuria]

... But who plays that? And Bridge + Angel are 2 slow against you!


Some Reanimate builds side in Platinum Angel, and they can easily cast on the first turn. But they also have Blazing Archon, and that really hurts.

[Bovinious]

If you wanna get really lucky and always draw SB cards then Chain of Vapor + Cabal Therapy = Destroy Target Anything, but otherwise I think its a good idea to run 2 Ray 1 Grudge for random stuff like EPlague/GPrison and EBridge/Jitte. Ray also serves as Leyline hate 6-7.

[e1567]

Hey guys I see not too much activity figured someone would want to post about Eldariels post ichorid went 1st in a 50 man tournament. In addition I went 12th place at the 40 dual land tournament here in chicago. Here is my report.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=179821#post179821

[Lemuria]

Nicely done anyway, even with a manabase so weird. You should play the Cities and Mines, sou you can play Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge on your SB, and that allows you to play Gamble as well. Also, you should SB Chalice of the Void or Pithing Needle, but anyway, good job.

[e1567]

First off thanks Lemuria

I know it was weird like i said in the report one of my teammates (who went 0-3) talked me into the reverent silence board. Afterwards I wish i did not play the reverent silence board cuz it hurt me too much post board, not being able to hard cast therapy always hurt me.

I do think I will try the gamble board but im not sold on taking out a single DA because it is so crucial to my play style, one explosive turn so my bridges dont really matter if they chuck a creature in the grave from combat( I also like to wait when they are tapped out take that extripate)because I already got all the zombies I really need. Oh hey guys I have a question for you it came up at the tourny.

3 Bridge from below are in my grave yard. I am attacking with a couple of zombies and 3 Ichorids my opponent has goyf(5/6) and two Quirion Dryad one at 1/1 and the other at 4/4. Ok so here it is, he block all three of my ichorids so he will not die. All three of my ichorids die and his dryad dies. So how exactly does this work. All four go at the same time thus all four trigger bridge.

The judge ruled that I get no zombies because bridge will not be in my graveyard. I decided not to argue with him because I was going to win next turn anyhow.

Now what I thought was that since I own bridge and I am the active player I can control the order of the triggers on the stack thus putting my ichorids on top while his dryad on bottom.

What do you guys think I haven't had the chance to check the rules verbatim just yet. And I figured the more discussion on this thread the better because kid ichorid is just awesome, in fact it is so awesome it pulled me away from faerie stompy which was my first legacy passion.

[Ataxrxes]

Well, since you can stack the triggers in your favor after a Damnation, I don't see how this would be any different. Put all the RFG triggers on the stack then put all the zombie triggers on. Zombies are created then the first RFG trigger removes all your bridges and the rest of the RFG triggers do nothing.

[Bovinious]

The Judge was wrong. Since you are the active player you get to stack the triggers, and if you want zombies you can have the zombie-making triggers resolve first (trigger last) giving you zombies BEFORE they get RFG'd. Bridge from Below can be a complex card rules-wise, but I think its unexcuseable a judge would mess that up...fight him next time.

[DURESSyou92]

I opened a lorwyn pack the other day and a got the card Wispmare. Would it be better than Rey since it costs on less (from yard)? Against leyline and planer void you can't use rey (from yard) anyway so might as well use this and get tokens.

[Bovinious]

Seems worse than Wax//Wane since its sorcery speed, and wont ever give you zombies if Leyline/planar is on the table. I wouldnt even play Wax//Wane tho, Chain of Vapor and Ray of Rev are generally enough.

[e1567]

See I figured that was how it worked. But like I said it didn't matter cuz i was going to win anyhow, but next time if it matters I will destroy him:cool:

So does anyone here have any ideas for a side board with out lotv. In my meta I have never seen a use for it. I mean it would be useful against 43 land but I have to board in enchantment hate against it. So I was just wondering since we run the rainbow lands has anyone given thought to a more diverse side board.

So how is gamble working for everyone, is it worth taking out a DA and somthing else probably a dredger bringing the total to 10. Is it really worth it.

[Lemuria]

My list goes almost the same as your list, except:

mana base of course :cool:

-2 deep analysis
-1 dread return

+3 gamble

Having Gamble MD is like having extras Breakthroughts or LEDs. The discard doesn't matter, so this is a demonic tutor for R.

Some people tells me that I should cut one Gamble for a Deep Analysis, but I'm quite happy with that build, since Gamble can be every card I want. Course, you sacrifice speed for consistance, but I prefer to play a safe game instead of a risky one. And when I mean "sacrifice speed", that doesn't mean I'm not killing people on turn 2 or 3. :wink:

Also, gamble can search your Rays, Grudges, Chalices, CoV...anyway, good and versatile card for this deck.

[soundwave123]

The thread is so large that I have no idea if this has been mentioned before but I have built the deck and I am pleased at the speed but I find myself wanting to take out one card from the sideboard for Magus of the Disk for a complete one answer to the hate with few exceptions like layline of the void which of course is what ray is used for along with chain of vapor. Anyone have any ideas whether this would be a positive move or bad move? And what to take out of the sideboard for this guy.

[Bovinious]

I'd rather run Angel of Despair than Magus, but I wouldn't recommend running her either. If I did tho I guess id cut a Ray/Grudge since it'd serve a similar purpose, and you would have to leave Dread Returns in as well post-SB, which will force you to cut stronger cards.

[Bane of the Living]

Ok heres a bunch of things..

Congrats with your wins e1567. The deck can be very complex, Ill give you that. I replied to your report in that thread.

Heres what you need to remember. When you want to add a "gimmick" to the deck like Magus of the Disk, Evoke Dude, ect..
Ask yourself Would this really be better than Chain of Vapor??

If the answer is "No I just wanna be cool" then dont play it. Id gone down to 3 Chains till I realized it was just one of the best cards you could board in most circumstances. I dropped Pithing Needle from my list. Chain of Vapor is usually a fine answer to Tormods Crypt. The turn you want to combo off you bounce it, or just combine it with Cabal Therapy. You do play 8 of them afterall.

Ive cut Gamble from my list simply because luck is already too much of a factor in your gameplay. Ive cut it for Street Wraith. Its always been amazing enough to put in the deck but Id always figured there were better cards to play in Legacy since we have mana and more powerfull cards, as opposed to Vintage who has Bazaar and foresakes mana.
But then I realized I was playing jank like Gamble that needs one of 8 other cards in the deck to be cast. So back in he goes.

He's free dredging. Period. Its not counterable and makes the discard phase much more glorious. Thresh is growing in popularity and cycling yourself a dredge is becoming the difference between dying to Goyfs and winning around counterspells. Feeding Ichorids just cant be overlooked. It lets you win through Ichy beats much more reliably.

[blitz]

Ok heres a bunch of things..

Congrats with your wins e1567. The deck can be very complex, Ill give you that. I replied to your report in that thread.

Heres what you need to remember. When you want to add a "gimmick" to the deck like Magus of the Disk, Evoke Dude, ect..
Ask yourself Would this really be better than Chain of Vapor??

If the answer is "No I just wanna be cool" then dont play it. Id gone down to 3 Chains till I realized it was just one of the best cards you could board in most circumstances. I dropped Pithing Needle from my list. Chain of Vapor is usually a fine answer to Tormods Crypt. The turn you want to combo off you bounce it, or just combine it with Cabal Therapy. You do play 8 of them afterall.

Ive cut Gamble from my list simply because luck is already too much of a factor in your gameplay. Ive cut it for Street Wraith. Its always been amazing enough to put in the deck but Id always figured there were better cards to play in Legacy since we have mana and more powerfull cards, as opposed to Vintage who has Bazaar and foresakes mana.
But then I realized I was playing jank like Gamble that needs one of 8 other cards in the deck to be cast. So back in he goes.

He's free dredging. Period. Its not counterable and makes the discard phase much more glorious. Thresh is growing in popularity and cycling yourself a dredge is becoming the difference between dying to Goyfs and winning around counterspells. Feeding Ichorids just cant be overlooked. It lets you win through Ichy beats much more reliably.

I've actually been skewing the goyf slots and removed gamble to include 4 street wraiths. Does this strike you as a good move? 4 more ways to get a dredge in the deck and 4 more chances to put ichorid back on the board is the way I see it...

[Bovinious]

Street Wraith seems alright but ive got to wonder why are you worrying about the Thresh matchup, we already pretty much dominate. I think I'd still rather have Gamble just to increase the effective number of each SB card you run. And also how are you fitting in 4 Wraiths? If you cut 2 Gamble thats 2 slots but I dont see what else you could safely cut.

[e1567]

Good job picking up the playskill mid tourny =0

But I have to say this is the most complicated deck Ive ever played. Im still learning "better plays" with it all the time. Fighting hate becomes a different monster all together. Sideboarding wrong is very easy. Im hoping to write an extensive primer on the deck soon along with strategy and matchup analysis.

I will say this as an end note. Cabal Therapy is very significant in your games. Its the mvp of the deck and your skills with it can become dependant on your games outcomes all the time.


Thank you Bane, like i said I really like this deck. Im not sure I would call this the most complicated deck to play with, I tried to play solidtary and that deck is a bitch to play. But I will 100% agree that side boarding is a mother in this deck. That is why I like the idea of gamble but im not so sure that it is really that good against lotv, cuz if you pitch your answer that was a dead and meaningless play. In my short experience of competitive play with this deck I do feel chain of vapor is mvp in the side, I just wish I could have 4 more. But of course if we see leyline we do generally lose game 2 unless of course they get unlucky/mull and see no duress or thoughtsieze.

I might try the SW but im not so sure about taking the DA that does slow us down and with Friggin goyf we need as much speed as we can get.

I still want to try gamble though as a 2 of.


Im hoping to write an extensive primer on the deck soon along with strategy and matchup analysis.



And I will be looking forward to criticizing and make fun of you as much as possible :tongue:

[soundwave123]

You have a valid point Bane. Thanks for the help. Just so you guys know I placed 1st with the deck at my local store. Played against alot of random stuff and even a deck packing X4 trinisphere X4 Ghostly Prison X4 Propiganda maindeck! Cabal Therapy for the win!

[Ataxrxes]

Do you guys who play this deck at tournaments use the zombie token cards? Because I like to use lots of them. My question is where do you keep them so they are readily accessible yet you don't have a big stack of token cards sitting on the table giving your opponent information you don't want him to have yet? I would prefer to keep them in my deck box but 15 sb cards plus 12+ zombie tokens make a tight fit in there.

[klaus]

Do you guys who play this deck at tournaments use the zombie token cards? Because I like to use lots of them. My question is where do you keep them so they are readily accessible yet you don't have a big stack of token cards sitting on the table giving your opponent information you don't want him to have yet? I would prefer to keep them in my deck box but 15 sb cards plus 12+ zombie tokens make a tight fit in there.

The most convenient way to use Zombie tokens is using a singleton token card and putting a dye on top that indicates the number of zombies in play.

best,
Klaus

[Bane of the Living]

The most convenient way to use Zombie tokens is using a singleton token card and putting a dye on top that indicates the number of zombies in play.

best,
Klaus

This is what I do too but I use two tokens, one for tapped zombies and one for untapped zombies. :rolleyes:

[Bovinious]

I keep 16 of those 10E Zombie tokens in my box with the SB, but it is a very tight fit.

[T_B]

I use lots and lots of Scathe Zombies.

[MattH]

I use the 1994 CocaCola Monsters of the Gridiron cards, which I cannot seem to find any images of, but trust me they're cool.

For squirrels and/or saprolings, I use Number Munchers cards.

[Tacosnape]

I use the 1994 CocaCola Monsters of the Gridiron cards, which I cannot seem to find any images of, but trust me they're cool.

For squirrels and/or saprolings, I use Number Munchers cards.

Dear God, that might be the nerdiest thing I've ever seen posted. You have my respect.

I use altered 4th Edition Scathe Zombies where on each one a different zombie has a comic-style text bubble above his head saying "BRAINS!" They're a throwback from my Black-Green Zombie Infestation Madness builds.

Also, for what it's worth, I've quit liking Gamble in this deck. Altering your manabase to consistently get Red isn't worth it.

[Lukas Preuss]

Funny, in my playtesting, we have come to the conclusion that Gamble wasn't worth the effort, as well.

What did you replace it with? We started to put more emphasis on the Dread Return combo again, but I'm not sure if this is the correct call. What does your Street Wraith list look like, Bane? What did you replace the Gambles with, Taco?

[Muradin]

I am still playing Careful Study. It is never awful, but it is always useful and smoothes out the whole deck. It is easier to cast than gamble(with cephalid coliseum) and acts as carddraw, anti-hate dig postboard and discard engine. It's just never totally broken, but always at least useful. You could compare it to Vindicate. Vindicate is never the best card available in a certain situation. You can destroy lands for 2 mana, creatures for 1 mana... and the same is true for everything else. But fact is, that Vindicate can do it all. See Careful Study from this point of view and try it out. Then if you come to the conclusion that it still sucks post your results here.

[Lukas Preuss]

I tested Careful Study already, eventhough I have to admit not as thoroughly as the other cards. It's nice, because it is a much more reliable discard outlet than Gamble and lets you dredge, as well. It's mana cost is much easier to support, which is a huge bonus.

But, I was wondering if these cards make the maindeck too slow. In an unknown metagame, I would like to have an explosive game 1 (thus my reasoning to increase the Dread Return combo to 3 Dread Return, one FKZ and one Cephalid Sage maindeck again), followed by a strong sideboard (which would be 4 Chain of Vapor, 4 Leyline, 4 Chalice of the Void and 3 other cards, most likely a combination of Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge).

[Lemuria]

Street Wraith sometimes can be teh broken, but it makes your mulligans decisions really tough. I'm not sure if he is the right pick, and, if running only 3 is enough.

[soundwave123]

Well I've been asking opinions and thoughts from alot of people yet I never post my list... I think its almost identical to alot of peoples lists but I figure I should post it since I feel its almost done. Today I will be testing Dakmor Salvage maindeck again. I have a stax player in my meta and I've been told it will improve my matchup against it. If anyone has any questions about my testing with the build as it stands now don't hesitate to ask.

Breakthrough - 4
Bridge From Below - 4
Cabal Therapy - 4
Cephalid Coliseum - 4
Cephalid Sage - 1
City of Brass - 4
Deep Analysis - 4
Dread Return - 3
Flame-Kin Zealot - 1
Gemstone Mine - 2
Golgari Grave-Troll - 4
Golgari Thug - 3
Ichorid - 4
Lion's Eye Diamond - 4
Narcomoeba - 4
Putrid Imp - 4
Stinkweed Imp - 4
Street Wraith - 2

//Sideboard
Leyline of the Void - 4
Chalice of the Void - 4
Chain of Vapor - 4
Ray of Revelation - 2
Ancient Grudge - 1

[Bane of the Living]

Funny, in my playtesting, we have come to the conclusion that Gamble wasn't worth the effort, as well.

What did you replace it with? We started to put more emphasis on the Dread Return combo again, but I'm not sure if this is the correct call. What does your Street Wraith list look like, Bane? What did you replace the Gambles with, Taco?

Heres the new list.

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 LED

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomeoba
3 Dread Return
1 Flamekin
1 Sage

3 Thug
4 Stinkweed
4 Troll

3 PImp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
3 Street Wraith

I like Street Wraith much more than Gamble because gamble was rarely cast off the 8 red lands in the deck and it was usually the 'win more' slot you take out for sideboard cards. The Gamble + sb cards sounds nice since it gives you more copies of your sb cards but to stick with that plan you need to dilute more of the actual engine.

Carefull Study is nice but I like that Wraith is free and a black creature more than the extra draw and discards. Dont get me wrong, its a close call, but I just need to go with the free card draw this time.

Im not sure how hot cutting a Mine was but it hasnt been a huge issue so far. Versions running Wraith are much more efficient at going to discard phase and still killing quickly.

Wraith does not make taking mulligans harder. Infact he makes each hand worth keeping more.

[soundwave123]

Wraith does not make taking mulligans harder. Infact he makes each hand worth keeping more.

I can't agree more... With him in opening hand things like City of Brass, Putrid Imp, LED, Breakthrogh, Street Wraith, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum.

I would prefer street wraith over gamble in this situation and in almost any other situation... Yes sideboarding is easier but I prefer to win asap game 1 and then mulligan for sideboard cards if I have to g2.

Which brings me to another point... I've noticed that most games I play on mws and in my meta are so slow they can't handle the combo and most never pack leyline G2. I think I might be just getting lucky. lol

[Lemuria]

Man, I'm so sick of MWS, there's almost no decent deck to playtest, and ther's only a bunch of -no need to gay-bash- who barelly know the rules. The best thing to do it's to playtest paciently with your friend, testing against the top decks in the format.


I used to run 11 land configuration, but i think 12 is safest. BTW, am I the only one to always draw 1 - 3 narcomoebas in my opening hand?:frown: , man...that sucks.

[T_B]

I do randomly have them in opening hand but most of the time it is almost irrelevant. Or I mull.

Do you guys feel safe with only one sage? I have found having many more is much more helpful. How many do you guys run? I like having 2-3. I am still undecided on a Wraith or another Sage.

[Lego]

I use lots and lots of Scathe Zombies.

Still one of the only cards to appear in every core set.

[soundwave123]

Man, I'm so sick of MWS, there's almost no decent deck to playtest, and ther's only a bunch of **** who barelly know the rules. The best thing to do it's to playtest paciently with your friend, testing against the top decks in the format.


I used to run 11 land configuration, but i think 12 is safest. BTW, am I the only one to always draw 1 - 3 narcomoebas in my opening hand?:frown: , man...that sucks.

I agree not alot of opponents on MWS are worth playing but I do record my stats as far as first turn kill or 4th turn to find out if I'm getting faster kills.

As far as narcomoeba's being in the opening hand... I have horrible luck with that also. Usually only 1 though.

[Bovinious]

I dont play Ichorid on MWS because its a bitch to make so many clicks and also deal with imcompetent people now knowing interactions. Also, people can have infinite card SBs on MWS and can include all the GY hate they want so games 2 and 3 wouldnt really be meaningful...

[soundwave123]

I do randomly have them in opening hand but most of the time it is almost irrelevant. Or I mull.

Do you guys feel safe with only one sage? I have found having many more is much more helpful. How many do you guys run? I like having 2-3. I am still undecided on a Wraith or another Sage.

I wouldn't run more than 1 because how good is it to have him in the opening hand and no way to discard.... it happens. I would prefer street wraith.

Another good reason not to run multiples is because you can dread return cephalid sage then cabal therapy him back to grave and repeat a dread return if you need to. I've done it many times to push farther down so I could get more narcomoebas in play.

[Barook]

Also, people can have infinite card SBs on MWS and can include all the GY hate they want so games 2 and 3 wouldnt really be meaningful...
Not if you look at the Security Code - if the number isn't 0 or 15, it doesn't show [Type 1.5] at the start of the game.

[Lukas Preuss]

Just wanted you guys to know that I T8ed at the Dutch Legacy Champs (around 110 players or something) with Ichorid. I went completely undefeated in the Swiss and only lost to Chris Wilczek, playing our team aYb's new 4c Hybrid Fish deck in the T4. I will write a (maybe short) report on how things went...

[spirit of the wretch]

Just wanted you guys to know that I T8ed at the Dutch Legacy Champs (around 110 players or something) with Ichorid. I went completely undefeated in the Swiss and only lost to Chris Wilczek, playing our team aYb's new 4c Hybrid Fish deck in the T4. I will write a (maybe short) report on how things went...

Congratulation! Can we have a decklist, especially: did you play Gamble? I played the deck in Karlsruhe (should have 4/0/0ed, ask Adan, he'll be glad to tell) and I was very happy with them.

[Windux]

http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/in...2285#msg172285

Here are the Decklists.

Btw Lukas made a 2nd Turn Kill, starting with Land, 2 LED, Putrid Imp and flashbacking 3 Deep Analysis, milling 2 Moeba, and 4 Bridges ;)

[Lukas Preuss]

Oh, I made some awesome plays throughout the entire day.

No, I didn't play Gamble. I found them not to be necessary and wanted to have the most explosive game 1 possible, so I ran 12 Dredge creatures and 3 Dread Return, 1 Sage, 1 FKZ. This won me many games... I didn't lose a single game 1. I think I will try to give you guys more detailed information in my report.

Btw, Windux, the link doesn't work.

This is the link: http://www.kvdeckmasters.nl/Forum/index.php?topic=9554.msg172285#msg172285

[Bovinious]

Was it really much better with 12 dredgers as opposed to 11? If I was to cut Gamble (which I'm considering), I think I'd add a 2nd Cephalid Sage first for more game 1 consistency.

[Lukas Preuss]

Oh, the 12th dredger really wasn't that important. I didn't have any problems with 11, but I had that one slot left after cutting Gambles and putting the Sage back in, so I decided to run 12 dredgers.

I don't think the second Sage is necessary, though, because you can just as well flashback Therapy, sac Sage and Dread Return it again. My game 1 was actually pretty explosive, but I guess you cut run the second Sage in that slot and it will probably be just as good.

[Lemuria]

What about the Street Wraith?

Do you think that he is not necessary for a explosive early turns kill? I tested him in the deck and I'm pretty satisfied, also, it's good because you can feed the Ichorid more often.

[Tacosnape]

What about the Street Wraith?

Do you think that he is not necessary for a explosive early turns kill? I tested him in the deck and I'm pretty satisfied, also, it's good because you can feed the Ichorid more often.

Every time I read "Street Wraith," I start trying to sing a variant of the song from Aladdin, redone a la Ichorid.

Yet despite these musical linkings, Street Wraith probably isn't worth it in the deck. Not particularly due to any major flaw in the card, but moreso because the deck's quickly running out of slots.

[Bovinious]

Thats what I think about Wraith also, if the deck had to run 64 cards Street Wraith would be the inclusion but I really cant justify cutting anything for it (and if anyone pulls a BreathWeapon and claims 64 cards is alright while running Wraith they lose a testicle).

[Brehn]

I managed to win a 14-man-tournament with this list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below

3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

2 Gamble
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
===
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Ray of Revelation
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Chain of Vapor

Don't tell me my SB sucks. I know it already.

Conclusions:
- Before the event I considered Gamble to be necessary. However I only used it 2 times in the whole tournament and it didn't win me games I would have lost otherwise.
- Cephalid Sage rocks. Seriously. Sometimes it's good to board out 1 Dread Return, 1 FKZ leaving the Sage in just for its pure explosiveness.
- Ichorid Players get way too lucky, especially when facing IGGy Pop :)
- Why should you think about playing Street Wraith in a 60-card-list with so many better cards around? I don't suggest going to >60 because I want to keep my testicles.

Speaking of awesome plays, I managed to get a turn 1 kill vs Goblins by going double LED -> double Deep Analysis. However there was one which I considered way more awesome:

Quarterfinals, I'm looking at my opponent's decklist, he plays the exact UGb Threshold list of Coppola's article. That means he brings in 4 Jailers (*stares at the lonely Chain of Vapor in my SB*). Damn.
I win game 1 easily, boarding in the 4th Therapy and the Chain. My opponent draws his seven cards and sends them back. I carefully watch him drawing 6 new cards, he says "Keep.". I can tell he's holding a good hand. Damn.
I look at my seven: Mine, Pimp, Therapy, LED, Deep Anal, Troll, Stinkweed Imp. Holy cow, I'm not going to lose this.
He leads with Thoughtseize and stares at my hand for some time, finally going for the Therapy. I play Pimp, flashback Therapy, he forces. Whoa. I play LED, flashback Deep Analysis, dredging a Narcomoeba and another Therapy, which I play taking his Jailer and proceed to win on turn 3 without Dread Return. Now that's awesome.

[badjuju]

So what's all this talk about Gamble not being any good? I suppose it isn't very "explosive" at times, but does adding extra Deep Analysis and Dread Returns really help all that much? I'd probably want to run Careful Study if anything.

(This is aimed at Lukas and Brehn mostly, I know the opinions of the regular posters.)

[Brehn]

Adding Cephalid Sage helps. I think it should be maindecked if there is a slight chance that your metagame doesn't consist of 100% Threshold, Landstill and MUC. I still can't tell if Gamble is the right choice, as I said i didn't really get a chance to use it in this tournament, so I will need further testing.

[Bongo]

In my testing, Dredge regularly smashes every non-combo deck that doesn't pack Leyline.


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomeoba
2 Dread Return
1 Flamekin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

4 Thug
4 Stinky
4 Troll

3 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis

4 Leyline of the Void


Because I expect the numbers of Dredge to rise significantly in the coming months, I chose to maindeck Leyline.
Not only is it useful against Threshold, Loam decks, Breakfast and various other stuff, it also gives you a free G1 win in the mirror.

Without LED, DA is often useless, and I seldom activate more than twice. 2 copies seem to be fine so far. 2 Dread Return are also enough, because you activate it once for FKZ for the kill, or activate it for the Sage which lets you dredge enough cards to find the second copy.

What I'm not so happy about are the 3 Putrid Imps. I thought about cutting another Gemstone Mine, but that seems a little too risky.


1) What do you think about maindeck Leyline?

2) How do you win the mirror?

My current SB is:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

Chain of Vapor has the problem of bouncing your Leyline too, so I don't know what to do here.

[mastech]

Can someone help me with the sideboard?

in a sample sideboard like:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

how do u sideboard vs each deck?

thnx.

[Berzerked]

I am also finding it difficult to decide what to board in and out for various matches.
For example, I regularly win game1 against Breakfast, but the next games see more trouble when they board in Deed. It's easy enough to play around normally, but not when backed up by Goyfs and the pressure of the combo. So, I can board in Chains, CotV, and LLotV...that's like the whole sideboard. Obviously CotV is not necessary, but if I side out my own combo, as many people have suggested, my deck is now much slower, and basically sucks against them, so CotV looks much better. LLotV is also some good against them, but necessary? Chain seems like auto-board with Deed, Leyline, and their combo pieces. There just isn't enough room, and on top of that, I don't feel like sending back a very good hand that would normally be fast enough (not anymore because I sided out my combo), just because I don't start with Chain, which I'm never going to find once I start dredging anyway...

[kicks_422]

Just asking... Why isn't anyone running Tolarian Winds anymore? Has it been replaced by Breakthrough? I think it would work fine if the deck runs both Breakthrough and Tolarian Winds...

[Bovinious]

Basically because it costs 2, you will rarely have 2 lands in your opener and to ensure you could get 2 consistently you would need to add more land which I think would weaken the deck more than Winds would strengthen it.

[dlevsApiJ]

Hello,

i also want to play this deck, but dont know how to side, when you want to put 4 CotV/Leyline/Chain of Vapor in... 4 Therapy out? Then its much harder to sac your own creatures for 2/2 zombies...

Mvg

[lolosoon]

For SB Strategy, I'll go with Bane's hints :

Never ever sb out your therapies. I take 1-2 out most just because they're way too synergistic with the deck. Using it as a sac outlet to get zombies or as a discard outlet on yourself is way too valuable. Therapy naming Mogg Fanatic is a key play. I would cut your combo win for Leylines and a drop one of a couple four ofs for Needles.

So, you should go with -1 FKZ, -1 Cephalid Sage, -2 Dread Return for your 4 of's, then -1 Imp, -2 DA if you need more rooms.

I still do have SB Issues with the deck.

I wonder if Pithing Needle won't be better than Chalices beside the Ancient Grudge Vs Tormod's Crypt.

Chalice is pro-active and can be Sided-in vs Storm combo to slow them down a bit. (though, don't board out your own FKZ combo for that, it'd be stupid).
But you do have to cast them (and/or Therapy) to shut further Crypts as soon as turn1. If a Crypt is played turn1 by your opponent, you must bet him into an early use (Slowplay him with 1 Dredge and 1 Ichorid at a time), or wait for Gamble=>Ancient Grudge.

Needles seems waaaaayy better on the draw (ie Game2), no ?!?

Any thoughts ?!?

[dlevsApiJ]

Ok thanks :).

And why some people play Gamble? I didnt play it and also didnt miss it...

Mvg

[badjuju]

Hey guys,

I just attended a 52-man Legacy in San Diego and went a disappointing 3-3. I'd like to throw a disclaimer out there: I was both very under-prepared and very inexperienced with combating hate. Most people on the forums have played enough games to play around Tormod's Crypt I guess, but honestly I was having trouble against that card all day. Below is my decklist and tournament report; I tried to take as detailed notes as possible so those wanting to learn or pick up this deck can learn from my horrible playmistakes and experience:

Ichorid
#Chris Liao
#Game Empire Legacy
#1 December 2007

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba

4x Breakthrough
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy

3x Deep Analysis
2x Gamble
2x Dread Return
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

//Board
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-game notes:
First off, I was tipped off by a few friends that the expected metagame was going to be heavy 4C Landstill and Threshold, followed by random aggro decks. Assuming this was going to be the metagame, Ichorid would've been a surefire choice to gun for top 8. Unfortunately, the metagame was almost 100% random, meaning you had no idea what to expect around every corner, making boarding decisions a nightmare.

The previous nights, I had been discussing with both Bovinous and Brehn about various MB and SB options. For the most part, we concluded that Gamble was stronger for fighting random hate, therefore I chose to go with that particular list.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I guess I don't have much more to write about, so here's the tournament report. Also, I don't want to sound like a sore-loser, but my opponents did have fantastic crypt rips that totally destroyed me all day. Without those rips, I would definitely have been riding towards top 8.

Round 1: Spencer playing UG Threshold
Game 1 - I keep a decent hand with imp, troll, and breakthrough. He starts off with petals, cantrips and werebear. I proceed to dredge via troll, then hit multiple narcomoebas, allowing me to effectively decimate his hand with therapies. I then safely cast breakthrough for the turn 4 FKZ kill.

Board // -1 FKZ, -1 Breakthrough, -1 DA, -1 DR // +4 Needle

Game 2 - I mulligan to 5, having no dredgers on my mull to 6. My 5 hand, however, was quite strong, consisting of LED, imp, troll, and DA. He starts off strong with a cantrip followed by goyf. I decide I'd better go balls out or just lose the game to eventual goyf beats (since I had already dredged off of troll, effectively making goyf bigger than he should've had any business being on turn 3). So then I LED, crack, flash DA, DA gets forced, I then sac coliseum and end up dredging a good third of my deck, leading into 1 bridge and Ichorids. The race is on: goyf + werebear vs recurring Ichorid + tokens. Eventually I get him down to 8 with two ichorid in the yard (only 3 black creatures though) and I'm at 4. EOT, he snabacks my imp. He has three cards left after I swing with my Ichorid, putting him down to 5. There's no way he can keep up with my token generation once I get two ichorids online, so I cast imp as a chump blocker to not die from goyf (also expecting to get a 2/2 token from the dead ichorid). Well, he had it. Forced my imp and stifled my ichorid, leaving him home free for the kill.

Game 3 - I get an early heavy-dredge hand into two narcomoebas, a therapy, ichorids, and two bridges. Upon flashing back therapy, I decided to name tarmogoyf, but he had only one land in play (he had been mana screwed for 2 turns). Here's where I misplayed: I should have named a cantrip spell because he was seriously hurting on land. I feel like I have the game in the bag, because soon I can just start recurring ichorids infinitely and getting tons of tokens ontop of that. Unfortunately, I let him keep his brainstorm and he ended digging up a crypt, knocking a good half of my graveyard out of the game. I was cold after that, and he dropped two werebears and a goyf that went all the way.

0-1-0


Round 2: Cort playing Mono Red Sligh
Game 1 - As soon as I saw the mountain, chain lightning, I knew that I was going to be in trouble...cause I kept a slow hand...and had mulled to 5. I end up dredging off imp and thug, hitting narcomoeba and a therapy. I therapy him naming lightning bolt. I see: chain lightning x2, lava spike, flame rift, spark elemental, and fireblast. Of course, all of that hits my face before I can effectively go off.

No Board lol.

Game 2 - I kept a greedy hand and ended up therapying myself turn 1 for GGT. I ended up dredging out 3 bridges, which were promptly removed by a well-timed tormod's crypt. He keeps laying down the burn, chipping my life slowly - 17, 14, 11, 8....However, I eventually get two ichorids in the yard with enough food to keep swinging in his face. He ends up getting stuck on his mountain + barbarian ring, meaning he couldn't fireblast me for the win. Ichorids got there!

Board // -1 DA // +1 grudge

Game 3 - Mulligan to 5 again, but decided to EOT troll. Meanwhile, he kept chipping away at my life and I was afraid to dredge too far (in fear of spark elementals or mogg fanatics eating my bridges). Luckily, he is stuck on two lands again...and when he didn't cast flame rift + fireblast and incinerate instead, I decided to go off. I untapped, cast breakthrough on thug, hit two GGTs in the process, two narcomoebas, therapy myself, dread return sage, dredge a million more, and FKZ him for some ridiculous number. Very, VERY close game.

1-1-0


Round 3: Jam playing G/W Good Stuff Beats
Game 1 - I see him play savannah, birds of paradise. In my head I was thinking: want to concede right now? JK! I turn 1 gamble for GGT (since I had LED and breakthrough in hand). Luckiest thing all day: GGT gets yarded. He follows by casting sakura tribe-elder. I untap, dredge GGT, LED, breakthrough - crack LED in response, dredge into triple bridge, and FKZ him for the win.

Board // -DR package // +2 needle, +1 ray, +1 grudge

Game 2 - He mulligans down to 6 and plays crypt. I kept a pretty slow hand, but dropped a gemstone mine and played needle naming crypt. Apparently his hand was very slow as well and we played go-fish for a few turns. Eventually, I find a GGT and begin dredging. He grips my needle and crypts me, then witnesses back crypt. I end up grudging his crypt, and then dredging again. He was pretty much cold after that. I hit several very good dredges, including three bridges, narcomoebas, and therapy. I eventually ran him over with zombie tokens.

2-1-0


Round 4: Matt playing RG Survival
Game 1 - I mull to 5 (I am seriously hating my deck at this point). I have to double therapy myself just to keep on dredging troll. Meanwhile, he plays birds and some beats. I end up flashing back double DA, hitting triple bridge, flashing back therapies to destroy his hand, and swinging in with 9 tokens and 4 ichorids the ensuing turn.

Board // -DR package, -1 breakthrough // +4 needle, +1 ray
(I REALIZE MY MISTAKE HERE: it was an obvious choice to bring in LotV, but I was an idiot and didn't even think about it...not having playtested or even expected RG Survival.)

Game 2 - I end up making a gutsy play, involving cracking my LED early and trying to flashback DA with GGT in the yard. My DA is forced! I'm pretty much cold after that after he gets spore-lock on me followed by survival advantage.

Game 3 - I mull to 5 AGAIN (although he mulls to 5 as well). I actually don't have good notes on this one, but it was a very slow game. I keep basically an unplayable hand (I have a really hard time going below 5 cards...in fact, I almost never do), but manage to top a GGT and begin my EOT dredging. I end up casting LED and flashing back two DAs (with a land, of course) hitting three bridges and slowly making tokens with ichorids to overcome his birds, wall of roots, and various other irrelevant creatures.

3-1-0


Round 5: Ben playing Spanish Inquisition
Game 1 - I knew Ben was playing SI cause my buddy had fought him earlier and beat him with UWb fish. With this in mind, I try to keep a fast hand. He decided to play, and passes the turn (wanting to go off on an 8-card hand instead of 7). I play therapy on him naming dark ritual and missing, but seeing: 2 0cc creatures, cabal ritual, land grant, chrome mox, tendrils of agony, and infernal tutor. He untaps and doesn't have enough to go off just yet, so he land grants for a land and passes. Big mistake. I untap, LED, dump my hand, and coliseum + flashback DA into dread return sage. I therapied him 4 times, removing tendrils, cabal ritual, infernal tutor, and the dark ritual he just drew...while having 4 bridges. He had nothing and died the next turn.

Board // -1 thug, -1 ichorid, -2 gamble // +4 chain of vapor

Game 2 - I mulligan to 5, he kills me turn 2.

Game 3 - I miss with therapy on the play, and he kills me turn 1 on the draw.

3-2-0


Round 6 (final): Jacob playing Affinity
Game 1 - He plays great furnace. I play double LED, crack one, drop GGT, flashback DA into 2 more GGTs and another DA, crack LED, flashback DA again, hitting more GGTs and my last DA, flash that back, hitting 4 narcomoebas and 3 bridges. I then therapy him once just to see what else was in his deck then proceed to FKZ for 30+.

Board // -DR package, -1 DA // +4 needle, +1 grudge

Game 2 - We both go pretty slow. I'm moving at a moderate pace with my dredges (using EOT troll). Eventaully I hit double ichorid and a single bridge: we being racing. At this point, I'm sure he has needle, but at the same time, I can't stop dredging or else I'll lose the race by A) not having enough bridges or B) not having enough ichorid food to keep racing. He topdecks the crypt, removing all of my ichorids and bridges, sacs his board to ravager and kills me.

Game 3 - I am angry at my deck at this point, and decide that I just want for some higher power to give me the god hand. Just once. So I say screw it and board out my needles, putting back my DR package - I wanted to win fast against affinity. I get a crap hand and end up cracking LED quite early to flashback grudge on his lands, while putting dredgers in my yard. He's stuck on one land, and I untap, dredge, and hit bridge + narc + therapy. I therapy him, naming ravager - I see: thoughtcast, frogmite, frogmite, plating. HE IS STUCK ON ONE LAND AND HAS 1 GENESIS CHAMBER. Of course, he untaps, draws seat, plays frog frog, plays thoughtcast, then crypts me from the last card he draws off thoughtcast. G_G. I'm cold after that: he draws another land equips and swings with tokens / frogmites. I chump and die soon after.

3-3-0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusions and Notes:
-The plays that usually make or break me really are my therapies. For example, naming a cantrip vs threshold when I know they have very few outs or naming cards that I know will definitely put my opponent in a position to turn the tables. I cannot stress how important and key this is to your deck.

-Boarding versus aggro is pretty much a nightmare. On one hand, you want to bring in lots of cards to deal with their hate. On the other, you want to maintain your speed so you don't fall behind or lose to fanatic/ravager shenanigans. I, for one, feel that cutting the FKZ package almost makes the deck feel very sluggish and almost unbearable to play. You dredge, but you can't dredge too fast cause you don't want to get crypted...but at the same time you aren't really getting anything done against their fast clocks.

-I didn't think crypt would be that bad, since I played against it in standard. But the way this deck dredges is far superior and can cost you games if you over-do it. Granted my opponents always RIPPED CRYPT at the most opportune moments, Chalice of the Void is definitely something I would consider in my board for future tournaments.

-I suppose most of you want to know whether or not Gamble was good for me. My answer? It was solid. I wouldn't say it was amazing, but I DO wonder what life would've been like if I had another Dread Return for those moments where I was always a bit short of killing my opponent right then and there.

-Screw topdecked crypts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Overall I was pretty disappointed with my performance, but I can't blame anyone but myself. My lack of experience with the various decks in the format coupled with my poor ability to foresee crypts / deal with that aftermath cost me many games. I'm not sure if it's something that can be helped, but a topdecked crypt is usually pretty brutal because it comes when you least expect it. On a side-note, I think I would've done much better with Belcher, cause I know more than half the decks I played against probably wouldn't have been as easily ready against me as they would have been against Ichorid. I'd like to give a couple of shout-outs to people who have been helping me understand and develop this deck for over a month now, constantly pushing me to overcome my fear of hate (which is now re-installed -.-) and teaching me how to play it correctly --


Major props to:
Bovinious (Scragnoth) - for pretty much answering all of my questions regarding dredge - all the time, anytime.
Tacosnape (Death by Teatime) - for introducing the basics of the deck to me.
Brehn (Felixandra) - for the last minute help in deciding which variant of the deck to run.
My buddy John - for making top 8 in his first legacy tournament...ever.
Ben - for playing my kinda deck - SI FTW!
Game Empire in San Diego - for hosting a 50+ man tournament with awesome top 4 prizes.
and everyone in the Ichorid thread for providing constant updates and feedback regarding the performance of the deck!

Thanks for all the support and don't let this deck succumb to hate!

[Bane of the Living]

Tourney report

A couple things..

Putrid Imp cant block if he has thresh.

Against Survival board needle if you have it not Leyline. Pithing Needle can name Survival or Spore Frog.

Against Affinity you bring in Leylines to stop Ravager and tog from rapping your Bridges. I usually dont bring in Needle but Chalice if im on the play.

Does SI play Leyline of the Void in the board? I have no experience against it.

Leyline shouldve come in against the Red Sligh deck playing Spark Elementals and Fanatics. Both are worse for you than Crypt. Chalice is amazing against them.

Ive reduced my mulligans by taking Gamble's out of the deck and keeping Putrid Imp count at 3. Running Street Wraiths in those slots has allowed me to draw into shit I need for free and play manaless much more often.

Ichorid kills become much more viable with the additional black creatures.

Ive been playing Chalice over Needle for a while now. I never looked back.

Chalice for 0 can break the mirror match.. btw.

[Bovinious]

A couple things..

Putrid Imp cant block if he has thresh.

Against Survival board needle if you have it not Leyline. Pithing Needle can name Survival or Spore Frog.

Against Affinity you bring in Leylines to stop Ravager and tog from rapping your Bridges. I usually dont bring in Needle but Chalice if im on the play.

Does SI play Leyline of the Void in the board? I have no experience against it.

Leyline shouldve come in against the Red Sligh deck playing Spark Elementals and Fanatics. Both are worse for you than Crypt. Chalice is amazing against them.

Ive reduced my mulligans by taking Gamble's out of the deck and keeping Putrid Imp count at 3. Running Street Wraiths in those slots has allowed me to draw into shit I need for free and play manaless much more often.

Ichorid kills become much more viable with the additional black creatures.

Ive been playing Chalice over Needle for a while now. I never looked back.

Chalice for 0 can break the mirror match.. btw.

With less Putrid Imps and no Needle SB do you think its safe to reduce the land count? Im considering trying -2 Gamble, -1 Gemstone, for 3 Street Wraith after playing Street Wraith in Extended, where I think it is a bit better because you run Careful Study. It def seems like it could be good here as well tho but I really dont think cutting a PImp is wise, especially since PImp makes Street Wraith so much better, giving an extra dredge on turn 1.

Im still not sold on this Chalice vs. Needle thing, they will be on the play game 2 and can go Crypt go game 2 and your Challice just sits there looking pretty, has casting Needle at :1: really been than much of a problem?

[Brehn]

Yesmilord: With SI and Affinity you faced two horrible matchups, so it's not as bad as you might think.


Ive reduced my mulligans by taking Gamble's out of the deck and keeping Putrid Imp count at 3.

What? You've reduced your mulligans by cutting Putrid Imp, the second-to-best turn 1 play of the deck and a main reason you don't lose to a Crypt, to 3? How does that work? I'd rather cut the Coliseums to play 12 rainbow lands, so I can cast him consinstently.


Running Street Wraiths in those slots has allowed me to draw into shit I need for free and play manaless much more often.

Sure, manaless is cool and with Street Wraiths you can win quite fast and consistently without playing a land. But I have two questions: 1) Is playing manaless fast enough vs aggro decks? and 2) Don't you always board the Wraiths out, considering that they do nothing but draw a random card when you're facing hate?

[Bane of the Living]

With less Putrid Imps and no Needle SB do you think its safe to reduce the land count? Im considering trying -2 Gamble, -1 Gemstone, for 3 Street Wraith after playing Street Wraith in Extended, where I think it is a bit better because you run Careful Study. It def seems like it could be good here as well tho but I really dont think cutting a PImp is wise, especially since PImp makes Street Wraith so much better, giving an extra dredge on turn 1.

Im still not sold on this Chalice vs. Needle thing, they will be on the play game 2 and can go Crypt go game 2 and your Challice just sits there looking pretty, has casting Needle at :1: really been than much of a problem?

Casting Needle isnt a problem. Having sideboard space for it is. This is my current board..

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice
2 Ray
4 Leyline
1 Crippling Fatigue

Crippling Fatigue is for Gaddock Teeg, its a meta specific sb card so dont go wild on me. Mr T is devestating to your gameplan and I need a way to rid him aside from Cabal Therapy.

I havent completely cut PImp. Ive had him as a three of compared to alot of other peoples list which run 4. My most current list is posted.

I removed 2 Gambles and one Gemstone Mine. The same idea you have.

@Brehn.

Like I said I still run 3 PImps I didnt completely cut him. I reduced my mulligans because manaless ways to dredge make hands a hell of a lot better than a red spell that requires one of 8 other cards in the deck to be cast. Not to mention, it needs to be cast, not cycled.

Coliseum is the very best source of dredging in the entire deck. Never ever cut it. Its the only uncounterable way to dredge aside from your draw step. (unless of course your running SW's)

1) Playing Manaless against aggro is a bad idea since its often too slow a method, however a manaless way to dredge against these decks can give you the speed you need to beat them. You should note that alot of aggro matches come down to their guys vs your Ichy's. Aggro can often remove Bridges with Fanatics or what not, SW's give more fuel to your Ichorid returns.

2) Yes you board out SW. One of the best parts about having the hollow spaces in your deck.

I wish I could fit a 4th. Im thinking of removing the 4th Ichy or 3rd DA. Afterall I only own 3 foil Ichorids. :tongue:

[Bovinious]

If casting Needle isnt a problem then why are you running Chalice over it? Needle works on the play or draw and Chalice only on the play, do you think Chalice at 0 really cripples storm decks or something (who again will be on the play for game 2)?

[blitz]

street wraith for me replaces 2 gambles, a mine, and a thug. This doesn't screw up any of the numbers does it?

[Bovinious]

street wraith for me replaces 2 gambles, a mine, and a thug. This doesn't screw up any of the numbers does it?

Im not sure, I dont think I really like cutting a land and leaving 4 PImps because you wont be able to cast him as much, and I dont think cutting an Imp is good either. Also Id stay at 11 dredgers too, which basically leaves the 2 Gamble slots and 2 undecided for me, I hate how theres no room and I cant decide!

[BKclassic]

I have been a lurker on the boards for a while and I have seen many instances where some new guy comes in and says that his (or her) version of the deck is the nuts and everyone else has been doing it wrong for ages. So I will try not to do that, but I think you guys should really consider my thoughts on this deck. Brace yourselves, I cut Lion's Eye Diamond, Dread Return, Narcomeoba and added Ashen Ghoul.

Mana- 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures- 30
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid

Spells- 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below

Why this deck is better:
-You don't have to over commit yourself. Lion's Eye Diamond and Dread Return both require you to over commit yourself, either by making you put all your eggs in one basket or by not working without half of your library in your graveyard, leaving you vulnerable to graveyard disruption. So I replaced those cards for slower but more reliable cards, Tireless Tribe and Ashen Ghoul.

-Game 1- If your opponent has disruption, this deck will give you a much better shot at winning. If they don't, it is still pretty explosive and you should still be in good shape. In games 2 and 3, regular Ichorid sides out Dread Return for disruption, so you might is as well design the deck with that condition heavily in mind.

-Consistency. This deck is as counterspell proof you can possibly hope to be. Also, Meddling Mage does little and Mr. T does nothing. There is no single card this deck desperately needs to resolve. Also, Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are a really great opening for the deck, and with 10 rainbow lands, it happens all the time. Also, no more dead Narcomeoba's in your opening hand (or the 5 Dread Return cards) and look how redundant the deck is-

14 Mana (Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow lands)
16 Card Draw (Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Street Wraith)
12 Discard (Putrid Imp, Tribe, Careful Study, Tireless Tribe)
10 Dredge (obvious)
12 Win (Bridge From Below, Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul)
4 Disruption (Cabal Therapy, But if you flash 'em all back, thats 8!)

This also means that you can shave a card here in there if you want to work in a set of Thoughtseize without major consequences. (Maybe -1 Tribe, -1 Wraith, -2 Ghoul)

-Street Wraith- Maybe it's just me, but I really like Street Wraith in the deck, and it is fantastic to finally have room for a set.

Obviously, an opening hand of 3x Golgari Grave-Troll, Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum, and Street Wraith in the regular version is better then this deck, but I think that a hand with Putrid Imp, Rainbow land, Golgari Grave Troll and Careful Study and is not much worse and a lot more likely.

[Tacosnape]

Cutting Dread Return isn't that far-fetched.

Cutting Lion's Eye Diamond is probably a bad idea, but it at least has logic behind it if you're going for consistency over explosiveness. However, the fact that you cut Deep Analysis along with it is a terrible idea. Deep Analysis gets 100 times better without Lion's Eye Diamond, because your chances of hitting 2 land per game skyrocket.

Cutting Narcomoeba is lunacy. At the very least, Narcomoeba + Cabal Therapy is how you beat combo and various forms of hate. At the most, it's a nutbar way of generating multiple zombies while disrupting your opponent. There is no way this card should be cut, ever.

I must admit I like the concept of Ashen Ghoul, though.

[BKclassic]

I like Deep Analysis, too, but the chances of the deck hitting 2 mana with only 14 lands is still pretty slim and I really hate staring at my graveyard when I only have a lone City of Brass for mana, and I really like having everything cost 1. Also, with 8 Putrid Imps, you don't usually anymore then your original 7 cards. But perhaps it should be played in spite of all that.

You are probably right about Narcomeoba, too, but one thing to note is that deck sort of makes up for it with other more Cabal Therapy victemns in the form of Tireless Tribe and Ashen Ghoul. And like I said, you there is room for playset of thoughtseize which could make the difference up.

Man, I can all ready tell Street Wraith is going to get cut. :(

[xsockmonkeyx]

I must admit I like the concept of Ashen Ghoul, though.

Me too, I could see the black activation being worth the extra 2 power compared to Nether Shadow(maybe). How often do multiples in the yard become a waste? I dont really imagine being able to pull out 2 during an upkeep that often so a second in the yard is kinda meh. Sure you could pull it out next turn potentially, because they stick around, but who wants to have to wait?

Is it ever a problem with the fact that Ashen GHoul comes out "during your up keep" while Ichorid is "at the beginning"? I mean, are there ever times you have to choose between one or the other because you would go under the 3 creature requirement for Ashen Ghoul by removing the black creature and the Ichorid from your yard?

Nether Shadow is beginning of upkeep, so you could stack it in front of an above Ichorid, right?

[kicks_422]

Is 10 dredgers enough? Even in the Vintage version with Bazaars, I feel that going below 12 is a crime against the deck.

I'd have to agree about NOT cutting the Narcomoebas. Those and the Bridges are the cards from FS that gave this deck a nudge to the upper tier.

[Fuzzy]

What about the Baubles (Urza's & Mishra's)?

Well, if in Vintage it works...

[Brehn]

Bane_of_the_Living: You're making good arguments, I'll definitely test a Gamble-less list with 3 Street Wraiths. Anyway, I'd never cut a Putrid Imp, it's the best dredge enabler of this deck.

About cutting Lion's Eye Diamond: It works. It definitely works, if you're playing against Threshold, Landstill and MUC all day long. However, there are some matchups where speed is relevant, by cutting LEDs you seriously weaken your Aggro and Combo Matchups.

About Baubles: look like a worse Street Wraith.


Cutting Narcomoeba is lunacy.
Yeah. But I also think it's lunacy to play less than a playset of Bridge from Below, Ichorid, Golgari Grave-Troll and Putrid Imp. Bridge and GGT are obvious, you might say, but I think a list that plays less than 4 Ichorids or Imps (and I see those frequently) is just as good as a list with only 3 Trolls. It's like taking a good deck and cutting the best cards from it. It's like Threshold with 3 Mongeese, 3 Goyfs and 2 Force of Wills. Or Goblins with 2 Lackeys and 3 Warchiefs. Or... -- it just doesn't make sense.
This is also a reason why bucci's quite unusual list keeps me interested. He essentially plays 8 Putrid Imps (Tribe) and 8 Ichorids (Ghoul). This just has to be good in some way, in spite of any odd choices.

[BKclassic]

Me too, I could see the black activation being worth the extra 2 power compared to Nether Shadow(maybe). How often do multiples in the yard become a waste? I dont really imagine being able to pull out 2 during an upkeep that often so a second in the yard is kinda meh. Sure you could pull it out next turn potentially, because they stick around, but who wants to have to wait?

My goal with the deck is to not have to have overextended yourself too much with the dredging, which means not as many cards are going to be in your graveyard, and therefore less chance of multiple copies of Ashen Ghoul. But in general, I find having two in your graveyard to be a good thing, I can usually put one into play on turn 3 and another on turn 4 (the deck doesn't win in one turn anymore), and extra copies can always be eaten by Ichorid. But with all that said, I think 3 copies would be all right.


Is it ever a problem with the fact that Ashen GHoul comes out "during your up keep" while Ichorid is "at the beginning"? I mean, are there ever times you have to choose between one or the other because you would go under the 3 creature requirement for Ashen Ghoul by removing the black creature and the Ichorid from your yard?

You can respond to Ichorid's trigger by activating Ashen Ghoul, making it not a problem.


Is 10 dredgers enough? Even in the Vintage version with Bazaars, I feel that going below 12 is a crime against the deck.

I'd have to agree about NOT cutting the Narcomoebas. Those and the Bridges are the cards from FS that gave this deck a nudge to the upper tier.

I checked on Germagic to see what people are doing in terms of numbers of Golgari Thugs-
1 Thug- 1 person
2 Thugs- 6 people
3 Thugs- 5 people
4 Thugs- 2 people

So I would say that 10 dredgers is doable. Though it is worth noting that two of the three lists that made first place both ran 3 Thugs, and there was one first place list with 2 Thugs.

[spirit of the wretch]

My goal with the deck is to not have to have overextended yourself too much with the dredging, which means not as many cards are going to be in your graveyard, and therefore less chance of multiple copies of Ashen Ghoul. But in general, I find having two in your graveyard to be a good thing, I can usually put one into play on turn 3 and another on turn 4 (the deck doesn't win in one turn anymore), and extra copies can always be eaten by Ichorid. But with all that said, I think 3 copies would be all right.

First of all, I like your list a lot. It's an interessting new take on the deck.
But I have to agree, that cutting LEDs and Narcomoebas probably isn't the way to go.
My question is: what is the problem with overextending? A well-timed Crypt will fuck your gameplan one way or the other. If you've dredged half of your library or only 20% won't matter.
I really like the idea of additional Imps. I wouldn't cut them under any circumstances (just like the Ichorids for that matter) and the possibility of getting one in your opening 7 more regularly seems appealing.



I checked on Germagic to see what people are doing in terms of numbers of Golgari Thugs-

I wouldn't play less than 11 dredgers if you're not playing Gamble, but 10 is probably ok if you desperately need the space in the deck.

@Gamble: I was quite pleased with that card, winning the game every time I cast it. The only problem I see is the amount of coloured mana in the deck, so I consider forcing 1/2 Undiscovered Paradise into the deck in the place of the Dread Return package (I only run 2 DR and a Zealot these days).

[edgewalker]

Mana- 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures- 30
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid

Spells- 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below


Wow, this looks really familiar. Oh yea, it's the original version of this deck back when Rav first came out, you added Street Wraith and Bridge.

With that said, I've always liked this version better because it's less of a glass cannon and has a better game against hate since it's not completely reliant on Bridge. Personally, I would drop the tribes for more dredgers or land because I don't think they're needed but reliably having a mana source in play is.

[Bane of the Living]

I have been a lurker on the boards for a while and I have seen many instances where some new guy comes in and says that his (or her) version of the deck is the nuts and everyone else has been doing it wrong for ages. So I will try not to do that, but I think you guys should really consider my thoughts on this deck. Brace yourselves, I cut Lion's Eye Diamond, Dread Return, Narcomeoba and added Ashen Ghoul.

Mana- 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures- 30
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid

Spells- 16
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below

Why this deck is better:
-You don't have to over commit yourself. Lion's Eye Diamond and Dread Return both require you to over commit yourself, either by making you put all your eggs in one basket or by not working without half of your library in your graveyard, leaving you vulnerable to graveyard disruption. So I replaced those cards for slower but more reliable cards, Tireless Tribe and Ashen Ghoul.

-Game 1- If your opponent has disruption, this deck will give you a much better shot at winning. If they don't, it is still pretty explosive and you should still be in good shape. In games 2 and 3, regular Ichorid sides out Dread Return for disruption, so you might is as well design the deck with that condition heavily in mind.

-Consistency. This deck is as counterspell proof you can possibly hope to be. Also, Meddling Mage does little and Mr. T does nothing. There is no single card this deck desperately needs to resolve. Also, Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe are a really great opening for the deck, and with 10 rainbow lands, it happens all the time. Also, no more dead Narcomeoba's in your opening hand (or the 5 Dread Return cards) and look how redundant the deck is-

14 Mana (Cephalid Coliseum, Rainbow lands)
16 Card Draw (Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Street Wraith)
12 Discard (Putrid Imp, Tribe, Careful Study, Tireless Tribe)
10 Dredge (obvious)
12 Win (Bridge From Below, Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul)
4 Disruption (Cabal Therapy, But if you flash 'em all back, thats 8!)

This also means that you can shave a card here in there if you want to work in a set of Thoughtseize without major consequences. (Maybe -1 Tribe, -1 Wraith, -2 Ghoul)

-Street Wraith- Maybe it's just me, but I really like Street Wraith in the deck, and it is fantastic to finally have room for a set.

Obviously, an opening hand of 3x Golgari Grave-Troll, Lion's Eye Diamond, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum, and Street Wraith in the regular version is better then this deck, but I think that a hand with Putrid Imp, Rainbow land, Golgari Grave Troll and Careful Study and is not much worse and a lot more likely.

Hopefully I can politely tell you why your build is underdeveloped.

First off I can tell your building off the extended ports since your running Tireless Tribe. But let me key you in on a few things here.

Pithing Needle shouldnt be amazing against you. It can hit PImp, it can hit Coliseum and thats it. Your playing a combo deck, why should you play one that gets totally crippled by a largely played card. Tormods Crypt is already house against you, dont make things worse.

Speaking of artifacts that rape your mother that every deck can play.. Chalice of the Void for one is alot worse for you than it is in the list Ive fathered.. Lets make a little chart.

My deck..
4 Therapy (still sacs guys!)
4 (Breakthrough)
3 PImp

Heres yours
4 Therapy
4 Tireless Hobo
4 PImp
4 Carefull Study
4 (Breakthough)

That doesnt seem to good for you.

14 Lands is going to make your dredges alot worse. None of those lands are even Dakmor Salvage, a card many of us include for our metagames. Infact I should stop right here and ask you why your even dredging if your not playing Narcomeabo.

It looks to me like your playing a version that wants to go to late game. I dont think you realize the reason this deck perfoms so well is the fact that it does win on turns 1-3.

Your running only 10 Dredgers which I highly advise against but thats not even justified by running Gambles..

Mr T can be dealt with by running one single copy of Crippling Fatigue that can open back up Dread Return.. Not playing Dread Return is ridiculous, it lets you capitalize on Bridge so much its not funny.

Not playing LED is well... LED is the reason to play Legacy, just stick to Extended with your build. Your gaining nothing just by porting Ashen Ghoul into a 1.x deck.

Your version just screams bad for so many reasons. Your going into late game is the biggest reason. Your really gonna let your opponents draw more Mogg Fanatics? Hardcast Leyline?

Just get better at playing with LED's and learn how to play the deck. If I sound rule at all I apologize but coming in here saying "This is why my deck is better" is very antagonizing and uncalled for.

[Bovinious]

I pretty much agree with Bane, that version looks ALOT like what I'm going to run in extended this season, except theres no Ashen Ghoul in extended. Also I dont really understand what you gain by not running Narcomoeba, you would never SB them out even if side out DR right? So its not like hes no good without DR...a free creature is almost never bad actually.

[xsockmonkeyx]

My goal with the deck is to not have to have overextended yourself too much with the dredging, which means not as many cards are going to be in your graveyard, and therefore less chance of multiple copies of Ashen Ghoul. But in general, I find having two in your graveyard to be a good thing, I can usually put one into play on turn 3 and another on turn 4 (the deck doesn't win in one turn anymore), and extra copies can always be eaten by Ichorid. But with all that said, I think 3 copies would be all right.


Well, yes I figured that the 4x was more suited to your version. I was speaking more in the context of throwing a couple Ashen Ghouls in a traditional Combo shell to see if you could get a little redundancy of Ichorid.


You can respond to Ichorid's trigger by activating Ashen Ghoul, making it not a problem.


Ahhh, thank you. I never played the Friggorid version of this only the LED Combo, so Ashen Ghoul has never come up.


a free creature is almost never bad actually.

Speaking of free creature, I was playing around with Basking Rootwalla a while back and wondered if anyone else has tried him. He was really good with the Dread Return engine if you had him in your opening grip, and could make for some explosive starts, but poor in every other instance. Just throwing that out there.

EDIT: Rootwalla was also good when you ripped him off of the top of your library with Coliseum and Breakthrough.

[Bovinious]

Speaking of free creature, I was playing around with Basking Rootwalla a while back and wondered if anyone else has tried him. He was really good with the Dread Return engine if you had him in your opening grip, and could make for some explosive starts, but poor in every other instance. Just throwing that out there.

I think I'd run Dryad Arbor before I'd run Rootwalla, and I dont think Id run the Arbor.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think I'd run Dryad Arbor before I'd run Rootwalla, and I dont think Id run the Arbor.

Rootwalla is a little better than arbor, I think, because it doesnt cost your opening land drop and you dont lose it if you drop a first turn land and discard your hand. He's still probably doesnt make the cut though.

[BKclassic]

On the Narcomeoba thing, in my version of the deck, an extra 1/1 just doesn't make that much of a speed difference, though it is an aid to Cabal Therapy, I agree to that. However if I were going to cut something, it would probably be the Street Wraith, and it that case, I really think a set of Thoughtseize would be better then Narcomeoba in this deck if you are worried about resolving hand disruption. Extra 1/1s don't really speed up my version.

On the number of dredgers, this is really not a huge deal, just cut two cards. Today I changed my list to subtract a Putrid Imp for a Golgari Thug.

Chalice of the Void certainly can be a problem if they are on the play and drop it for 1. I counted 31 (7 SB, I think) Chalice of the Voids in the last 5 events on Germagic (though 4 were in an Ichorid deck which is probably not going to be a problem), however this is compared to 60 Force of Will. Personally, I like the trade off (granted, Force of Will is much less devastating, but already if you have a Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe so is Chalice). But that is why we have sideboards. Also note, that if you play this deck, there is a good chance people will drop their chalices for 0 in an attempt to stop Lion's Eye Diamond. Still, this is a good reason to work in a few Deep Analysis.

And on the extended port issue, I just built this deck by starting with the old list, and thinking that opening with Putrid Imp was really great and wanting to work in Tireless Tribe, and then maximizing consistency. But I can see the resemblance. Not sure why I bothered to mentioned this, but whatever.

I suggest thinking about my version like goblins, but with a more reliable turn 3 and 4 goldfish, is good against control without needing to draw Aether Vial, can play 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Thought Seize (they really aren't hard to work in), in exchange for some vulnerability to certain things. Also, Tireless Tribe is a nasty answer to Tarmogoyf. Anyway, try it or don't, but I like it.

[No_Life_No_Future]

This has probably been mentioned before, but is there any room for Standstill?
The opponent would undoubtably have to break it, but the list looks pretty tight and stanstill comes online turn 2 when you would probably rather be smashing face....

[Bovinious]

Im not sure why you are worried about Force of Will, this deck crushes Thresh and Landstill and can race Cephalid Breakfast, Force has never been a problem for me.

[dlevsApiJ]

2 mana is to much in most of the situations, if you cant play it from your graveyard (like Deep Analysis, who you can play with LED).

But i have a quesion, I play this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (think I gonna play 4 Peedle here, after al reasons of playing Peedle over CotV)
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation

I keep playing 12 Dredgers. I like it very much, and now I sometimes have not enough Dredgers, with less Dredgers i have to Mull even more. Also it's good for your Ichorid plan, cause Golgari Thug can be removed for him, and with more Dredgers it isnt so hard te remove him.

Is there any cards in this deck that can be cut for Street Wraith? It sounds as a nice card in this deck te me, cause you can go manaless and you can pitch it to Ichorid, and I like to have a good second win-plan with your Ichorids.


Mvg

[Bovinious]

You could pretty safely cut a Dread Return and a Thug, but other than that not much can go unless you want to cut a land and a PImp, which Im not sure is wise. Street Wraith doesnt have to be a 4-of so just running 2 in place of a Thug and DR may be worthwhile, thats what I'm trying right now.

[dlevsApiJ]

I like it to drop an Imp turn one (cause you can discard all your Dredgers), and I also like 12 Dregders. 3 Return is many times "to much", but sometimes you dont find one so you have to wait one turn with your kill,, so 3 sounds good to me. I dont want to run less then 12 lands.

But I think I gonna test the same as you do.. 4th Thug and 3rd Return is very nice, but cutting the shouldn't be a problem.

Mvg

[dlevsApiJ]

SW as 2-off is really bad! You almost never draw it, the only thing you do with it is pitching it to Ichorid.

Mvg

[Tacosnape]

SW is really bad! You almost never draw it, the only thing you do with it is pitching it to Ichorid.

Edited for greater accuracy.

[Lothian]

So what about Yesmilord version game1 with pure explosiveness with no tormod problem:

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Putrid Imp
4x Ichorid
3x Street Wraith

4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Dread Return
3x Deep Analysis
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage
4x Narcomoeba

To remove the last 15 cards with SB:

4 Careful Study
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Ashen Ghoul
1 Street Wraith
2 Undiscovered Paradise

To get Bocci version game2 more aggro than combo, less vulnerable to graveyard hate.

Then you'll let your opponent cold!

What's the point to have a sb if you can never play it and if it hinders your mull options?

[Bovinious]

61 cards is not good in a deck that wants to chain dredges, hit DA, and draw LED/Breakthrough. Also a tranformational SB isnt really any good b/c they extended-like version is still vulnerable to Crypt, Leyline, and Jailer, you for sure need reactive answers to their answers.

[Xero]

So, I think I may be the only person who does this, but I'm actually running
2x Cephalid Sage instead of 1 or 0. I think it makes the deck slightly more explosive, becuase you can almost guarantee a Dread-Returned Sage after a handful of dredges. Any thoughts on this?

[Bovinious]

I was actually thinking about trying a 3rd DR and 2nd Sage in place of the 2 Street Wraiths, those last 2 slots in the deck can be anything really there doesnt seem to be a best card or concensus... I suppose making the game 1 combo even more redundant seems good, in addition to helping race other fast combo, and also giving us more cards to SB out, seems good Im going to try it as well.

[Lukas Preuss]

I was actually thinking about trying a 3rd DR and 2nd Sage in place of the 2 Street Wraiths, those last 2 slots in the deck can be anything really there doesnt seem to be a best card or concensus... I suppose making the game 1 combo even more redundant seems good, in addition to helping race other fast combo, and also giving us more cards to SB out, seems good Im going to try it as well.

Excactly what I was thinking when I tested the deck for the Dutch Legacy Champs. Here is my report: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=185026#post185026

[laststepdown]

I was actually thinking about trying a 3rd DR and 2nd Sage in place of the 2 Street Wraiths, those last 2 slots in the deck can be anything really there doesnt seem to be a best card or concensus... I suppose making the game 1 combo even more redundant seems good, in addition to helping race other fast combo, and also giving us more cards to SB out, seems good Im going to try it as well.


StL players have been doing this (3 ceph sage) for approx. 1 month.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Just wanted to say that early testing with Ashen Ghoul has been less than impressive. :frown:

[laststepdown]

Just wanted to say that early testing with Ashen Ghoul has been less than impressive. :frown:

Slow cards are less than impressive. :)

[dlevsApiJ]

What about Platinum Angel as 1-off in the SB? In some matchups its really good..

Mvg

[Bane of the Living]

What about Platinum Angel as 1-off in the SB? In some matchups its really good..

Mvg

My standard sb usually includes one. Especially if I expect Ceph B, TES, or the mirror match.

If you know for sure your opponent is removing all their spot removal its sometimes worth going for but against combo your leaving your Dread Return win in for speed anyways.


Just wanted to say that early testing with Ashen Ghoul has been less than impressive. :frown:

Wasnt this obvious when the deck was called Friggorid??

[Bahamuth]

I've been playing this deck for a couple of days now and I'm still unsure about a couple of things.

Should I play first, not knowing what my opponent is playing? In other words, should I try to win as soos as possible, or prepare to use my end step as discard outlet?

Same question holds for situations where I do know what my opponent is playing. Are there any matchups where I shouldn't play anything and only discard at the end of the turn (which means going second)?

Edit: Should I play Chalice or Needle in my board? People seem to have different opinions...

[Bane of the Living]

I've been playing this deck for a couple of days now and I'm still unsure about a couple of things.

Should I play first, not knowing what my opponent is playing? In other words, should I try to win as soos as possible, or prepare to use my end step as discard outlet?

Same question holds for situations where I do know what my opponent is playing. Are there any matchups where I shouldn't play anything and only discard at the end of the turn (which means going second)?

Edit: Should I play Chalice or Needle in my board? People seem to have different opinions...

You should always play first against unknown opponents and if possible play around Daze if you see an Island. If you go into a game with a known blue deck go to your discard phase and slowroll unless you have a hand with turn one Therapy.

Chalice should be played over Needle if you expect Landstill and Combo. You need the extra hate against TES and Chalice stops Extirpate from being problematic. Chalice for 0 stops Explosives set to nuke zombies.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Wasnt this obvious when the deck was called Friggorid??

Never played Friggorid. I had to see for myself.

[Bane of the Living]

Never played Friggorid. I had to see for myself.

Thats legit. If its worth mentioning Ive been a bit pleased with a single copy of Nether Spirit. I dont know if Narcomeoba #5 will make the cut yet though.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Thats legit. If its worth mentioning Ive been a bit pleased with a single copy of Nether Spirit. I dont know if Narcomeoba #5 will make the cut yet though.

Funny, I have a single Nether Shadow in my list as card #60. Its been honestly the best extra creature Ive tried so far.

EDIT: I dont think you meant Nether Spirit. He would be spectacularly bad here.

[dlevsApiJ]

For SB Strategy, I'll go with Bane's hints :


So, you should go with -1 FKZ, -1 Cephalid Sage, -2 Dread Return for your 4 of's, then -1 Imp, -2 DA if you need more rooms.

I still do have SB Issues with the deck.




You gave me this tips, but if you have a "perfect" hand, and you could win turn1 or 2, you cant if you board them out, and then you see them playing their hate.. So isn't boarding Ichorids ore something out better? Or 1 Cephalid Saga (i play 2), 1 PImp, 1 Ichorid and 1 Dread Return/Deep Anylisis?

Mvg

[Bovinious]

You gave me this tips, but if you have a "perfect" hand, and you could win turn1 or 2, you cant if you board them out, and then you see them playing their hate.. So isn't boarding Ichorids ore something out better? Or 1 Cephalid Saga (i play 2), 1 PImp, 1 Ichorid and 1 Dread Return/Deep Anylisis?

Mvg

Not usually, because for game 2 they will be on the play and can drop Leyline or Crypt if they have it (they can drop Leyline on the draw as well), and also without the DR combo you can still "win" on turn 1 or 2 by dredging a bunch then taking their whole hand (or at least the hate/relevent cards) with therapies, so unless your against fast combo and need to race the DR package really is what needs to come out.

[diffy]

Just wanted to say that I just won the last BazaarofWonders tournament in Nürnberg for this year with Ichorid taking home a Mishra's Workshop.
Attendance was about 90 people. I ended up 5-0-1.
I played a very standard, streamlined list (same as Lukas Preus in the Dutch Champs (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=185026#post185026)) and was pleased with it all day long. The additional Dredger was just vital all day long.

I played against (in this order):
Dragon Stompy 2:0
Wasteruption (Baseruption with Doran) 2:1
Rw Goblins 2:0
UWb Landstill with Cunning Wishes 1:1
Baseruption 2:1
Rbg Goblins 2:0

I'll link a report when I've come to writing it (probably not before christmas as I have exams to study for). I'll also link additonal information (top8 decklists, precise attendance etc.) when they become available on Germagic.

As for the tournament, everything worked out really, really well. The deck basically did what its supposed to do and works more consistently than most people give it credit for (I had to defend my deckchoice numerous times on the higher tables because people where mouring about how the deck is inconsistent, a glass canon and me a lucksack and such -> not true as I just played smart around the hate and was familiar with my role in the matchups).
The only games I lost where against tripple Leyline of the Void from the Wasteruption guy (I could easily handle the one he played in the 3rd game), against double Engineered Plague and double Meddling Mage against UWb Landstill and against a really slow&horrible draw against the Baseruption guy.
The amazing thing was that no-one boarded in less than 4 cards (most boarding in about 8-10) and that I was still able to just ignore the hate, dredge, dredge, dredge and win, win, win.
I didn't see any Tormod's Crypts but an awefull amount of Extirpates, Meddling Mages, Plagues and Dorans (stops Ichorid). I boarded in Chalice in many games (to stop Extirpate) but never got to cast it at 1.

The rest of the top4 were:

2) Gbw Survival with Rector and no Tarmogoyfs
3) Rbg Goblins
4) UWb Landstill with Cunning Wishes

[dlevsApiJ]

At worlds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/worlds07/legacydecks , the decks that finished 4-1 or better), there were some Ichorid decks with strange slots:

- Most of the lists didn't play Gemstone's and City's, but Fetch and Duals.. (also 1 list plays 1 other colored dual in the SB for Reverent Silence..)
- Akroma in the SB.. (in 2 builds)
- Ancestor's Chosen in the SB..
- Crippling Fatigue in the SB (i dont think you need this one, i cant name creatures you really have to kill, and you also remove your own Bridges)
- Dakmor Salvage (as a land its to bad, cause you have to wait 1 turn and it only makes Black (only for Imp, and sometimes Therapy).. I think you could better play a Golgari Thug more

And 2 nice things I saw:
- Echoing Truth in the SB (as a 5th bounce, hope I can make room for it)
- Careful Study/Gamble (I didn't tested those 2, but I think they can be very nice, especially the Gamble, so you can play some 1-off cards in the SB, and then search them with Gamble (with a full hand you have to be very unlucky).

Hope some people can explaind the "bad" things I saw, so they turn out to be cards to test :)


Mvg

[myselves]

Hope some people can explaind the "bad" things I saw, so they turn out to be cards to test :)


I'll try



1Gemstone's and City's, but Fetch and Duals.. (also 1 list plays 1 other colored dual in the SB for Reverent Silence..)
2- Akroma in the SB.. (in 2 builds)
3- Ancestor's Chosen in the SB..
4- Crippling Fatigue in the SB (i dont think you need this one, i cant name creatures you really have to kill, and you also remove your own Bridges)
5- Dakmor Salvage (as a land its to bad, cause you have to wait 1 turn and it only makes Black (only for Imp, and sometimes Therapy).. I think you could better play a Golgari Thug more


1) In the past here in Germany some players just play a dualbase, because you just need UB preboard, postboard G for Grudge and Ray, so they board a tropical island.
2)+3) They are both alternate Choices for the SB, so you can board Titan/Angel/Akroma/Chosen just to beat your opponents, this choices all are okay, but not good enough to have a place in the maindeck.
Chosen is just a lifegain, so you'll have more time to beat the opponent with Ichorid, Token and so on.
4) Fatigue is just a removal for Meddling Mage, in general you won't need this card.
5) some old lists played this card, it's another dredger, you don't want to play this land, but you can use it to dredge two more cards, but Trolls, Imps and Thugs are enough, so don't play this!

@Gamble: there was a discussion about it in this thread, wasn't it?

[dlevsApiJ]

[QUOTE=myselves;186369
1) In the past here in Germany some players just play a dualbase, because you just need UB preboard, postboard G for Grudge and Ray, so they board a tropical island.
2)+3) They are both alternate Choices for the SB, so you can board Titan/Angel/Akroma/Chosen just to beat your opponents, this choices all are okay, but not good enough to have a place in the maindeck.
Chosen is just a lifegain, so you'll have more time to beat the opponent with Ichorid, Token and so on.
4) Fatigue is just a removal for Meddling Mage, in general you won't need this card.
5) some old lists played this card, it's another dredger, you don't want to play this land, but you can use it to dredge two more cards, but Trolls, Imps and Thugs are enough, so don't play this!

@Gamble: there was a discussion about it in this thread, wasn't it?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the comment :), I was thinking of playing Platinum Angel, so that can in the "big-beast" slot...

And why play duals/fetch over the 5 coler mana lands? You have to "waste" one SB slot (at the tropical island)..
Cause I gonna test Gamble I cant test then.. But is the deckthining from the fetch so good? You play 5 green mana making land (4 fetch and 1 Tropical) and with the 5 colored land you play 8 green mana making land, for the Grudge and Ray. I havent had many problems with the life loss/only 3 times use...

Mvg

[myselves]

I never said, that it was better.
I still think that everybody who have tested this deck for longer time than 3-4 days, now plays the 5c Manabase, for the reasons you've written and so on.

[Bovinious]

Yea its established that a 5C manabase is better so you can play Ray/Grudge SB and because Reverent Silence sucks, pros just missed the boat on that one.

[dlevsApiJ]

I never said, that it was better.
I still think that everybody who have tested this deck for longer time than 3-4 days, now plays the 5c Manabase, for the reasons you've written and so on.

It wasn't directly a question to you, but more in general :).
But ok, then I'm happy that i don't have strange "feelings" (dont know an good english word here..) about the manabase and why play it this way :).

[Muradin]

What do you think of playing 1-2 big creatures as reanimate targets in the board(which ones I am still not sure, for me it's just 2 Akromas) to improve your matchups against aggro decks packing mogg fanatic or burning their own creatures to remove your Bridge from Below? In general I found it not that great of an answer against Goblins to bring in 4 Leylines just for Mogg Fanatic.
(you got to have the leylines in your opening 7, too to have any positive effect of them)
Furthermore you need anti-hate if they are playing Crypts so your boarding decissions may become really difficult. With a third plan(Bridge, Ichorid beatdown, which isnt too good in those special matchups and the reanimator plan) it should also be hard for other decks to remove all your winconditions by extirpating Bridges and Ichorids. For matchups like Landstill we could play the red Akroma as they propably won't be able to get rid of it in time. Thoughts on that?

[myselves]

For matchups like Landstill we could play the red Akroma as they propably won't be able to get rid of it in time. Thoughts on that?

Yes, play huge creatures, but in the SB, you don't need them Mainboard.
And Landstill shouldn't be a difficult matchup, 4c has Deed and EE, but that's it.
What's your oppinion of Homura, Human Ascendant, sure you need a Return, but then Ichorid has Evasion and swings for 5, so okay to board in against Aggro.

And you also can reanimate a Troll, which could be a 15/15 or bigger, to big for Goofy and if your opponent hasn't a StoP.

[Lemuria]

If Landstill is able to deal with an army of zombies, what they can't do with a single creature?

Btw, I agree with Myselves. Reanimate a big bad ass Troll 15/15.

[Muradin]

Quote: If Landstill is able to deal with an army of zombies, what they can't do with a single creature? /Quote
Its to get another win conditions against extirpate. And landstill will often be in a situation where they can deal with a number of zombie tokens with explosives or deed, but they are not likely to ramp up to 8 mana to blow up the red Akroma with deed as they can't swords it.

[Tacosnape]

Okay, I've concluded that any list not running Brainstorm is making a mistake.

I doubt I will ever cut it from my Ichorid lists again after testing. The insane number of plays this allows that you can't do otherwise would take me aeons to list here.

For starters, here's my current maindeck list.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
3 Deep Analysis
2 Breakthrough


Brainstorm's finer points:

1. It's castable off any land in your deck.

2. It draws three cards, meaning it's just slightly less strong for dredging than Breakthrough.

3. It fixes questionable opening hands by digging for a second land that you'll want for Deep Analysis or to activate a Cephalid Coliseum, or by digging for a stronger dredger or a Lion's Eye Diamond on turn one.

4. It can stick Narcomoebas stuck in your hand back atop your library for rapid use.

5. It lets you keep cards in your hand unlike Breakthrough, meaning if you have two Brainstorms, you'll probably get to use both of them unless you crack the Diamond.

6. It does a fantastic job postboard at digging for the cards you sideboard in and the mana you need to cast them.

I cut 2 Breakthrough, 1 Thug, and 1 Deep Analysis for the 4 Brainstorms. This actually increases my total number of draw spells, draw consistency, and my ability to keep going midway through the deck and fight through yard hate, all at a very slight expense in potential explosiveness. Ten Dredgers is passable with Brainstorm digging for them. 3 Deep Analyses has been plenty, and I don't regret cutting down to 2 Breakthrough at all. The 2 Breaks are still stronger than other options, I feel, but the addition of the 4 Brainstorms still leaves me with enough draw power to handle things.

[diffy]

I cut 2 Breakthrough


Did you never encounter the problem of not having Breakthrough as an awesome discard outlet after a mulligan?
I like how you can recover from virtually any bad mulligan by simply discarding your hand and still having the chance to hit another dredger in the top4 cards of your library.
If I were to play Brainstorm, I'd cut more Deed Analysis as they basically fulfill the same job as Brainstorm in conjunction with an LED but I find myself to never have 2 mana to flash it back in the curse of a normal game.

Edit: Taking Lukas Preus's list as a basis, I'd cut the 3 Deed Analysis and one Golgari Thug to try out the Brainstorms.
I've no idea how important DA is as its only good in conjunction with LED.

[Adan]

I cut 2 Breakthrough


I lol'd and then stopped reading

Breakthrough is the sickest card beside Lion's Eye Diamond in the wole deck since it's versatile like hell.
It's random brokeness and discard outlet at the same time. I also don't understand why to add Brainstorms. You can put Bridges and Narcomoebas back to dredge them, but you could also simply discard them since you still got Ichorids.
But I agree with Clemens (Der_imaginäre_Freund).

[spirit of the wretch]

Daniel and Clemens are right.
Cutting Breakthrough seems like a horrible idea. It is the second most powerful card in the deck, let's you dregde for a million, acts as a discard outlet and digs four cards deep (if you cast it for 1).
Nevertheless, Brainstorms are an interessting idea for this deck!
Deep Analyse might be the better card to cut, because you rarely make it to two mana without the LED, so most of the time it's pretty useless.
I will play the deck on sunday, at the GP: Stuttgart Sideevent and maybe I'll give the Brainstorms a shot.

[Bovinious]

Brainstorm seems interesting, but I really dont think cutting Breakthrough is correct...Breakthrough is this decks most powerful spell, and it seems cutting Breakthrough would be counterproductive because Brainstorm would basically be like running more but weaker Breakthroughs. Im also not sure Brainstorm is better than Careful Study, the discard of Study may be better than the extra draw; even for digging, Careful Study seems almost as good because if you miss with Careful Study you still have your topdeck but if you miss with Brainstorm youre out of luck for a few turns. Ill try out both Brainstorm and Careful study as the last 2 cards, I suppose.

[Tacosnape]

I disagree. You're all placing too much value on Breakthrough.

@Der: In order to clarify when Brainstorm would have been Breakthrough, I tested with 2 of the weird reprint Brainstorms from the Coldsnap Precons in their slots. I almost never encountered the lack of an ability to discard due to the fact that A. Occasionally I still had Breakthrough, and B. Brainstorm had a tendency to dig me into LED, Imp, or Breakthrough.

What's more, Turn one Land, Breakthrough, go is a very weak play. It cuts you off from Deep Analysis and ever having another useful, playable card in your hand. What's more, unlike the stronger openings, it leaves you with around 10 cards in your graveyard, from which you must Dredge 6 a turn at best and form some sort of decent clock.

Additionally, multiple Breakthroughs in your opening hand is completely useless unless you're waiting until turn 2 and casting it for 1. This is the only thing Brainstorm sucks at duplicating. The bright side to this is that if you're doing this, a Brainstorm is almost just as effective as the second Breakthrough. Breakthrough might dredge for four, but Brainstorm does it for three and leaves you the option of keeping your other weapons in your hand.

As for cutting Deep Analysis, if you do this, there's absolutely no point whatsoever in running Brainstorm. Brainstorm's strongest point is its ability to hit you a second land if you need one.

Brainstorm makes the deck more consistent. I actually found my Goldfish time on average to be better with only 2 Breakthrough. While my number of turn ones dropped, so did my number of turn 5+'s.

[Lemuria]

But it seems like you are slowing down a little bit.

Do you still get turn 2/3 kills often?

[Tacosnape]

But it seems like you are slowing down a little bit.

Do you still get turn 2/3 kills often?

Yes. I don't get as many 1's, but if we're talking strictly in terms of kills by turn 3 or earlier, I get far more with Brainstorm than without it. I sacrifice the occasional turn one insanotron for abolishing a lot of the turn 5/turn 6 problems I get otherwise.

You're slowing down a bit, but you're actually increasing your ability to maintain your barrage in the midgame, so that by turn two or three you generally catch up. Sometimes I get Brainstorms on turn one into LED/Second Land that let me go crazy the next turn. It's also worth noting that Brainstorm on turn one will sometimes -hit- Breakthrough, letting you do insane shit next turn.

Additionally, Brainstorm with LED is only slightly weaker than Breakthrough with LED. One less dredge and the inability to discard your dredgers afterwards. Breakthrough's clearly stronger with a godhand (I might go back to testing 3, but I doubt it), but Brainstorm will set you up for more semi-godly plays in the second and third turns.

It's also worth noting that when you do get the Breakthroughs, you can always make the ungodly stupid play of 2nd Land, LED, Breakthrough for 0, in Response Brainstorm, in Response crack LED, and dredge 7, plus nailing a Deep Analysis midway through, and essentially guaranteeing yourself a turn 2 win if you don't completely whiff on rolling into dredgers.

[Bovinious]

Brainstorm does seem good, but it just doesnt seem to me as powerful a spell as Breakthrough, I really cant see how anyone can justify cutting Breakthroughs at all...

Also like I asked earlier, why is Brainstorm better than Careful Study? To quote myself from above:


The discard of Study may be better than the extra draw; even for digging, Careful Study seems almost as good because if you miss with Careful Study you still have your topdeck but if you miss with Brainstorm youre out of luck for a few turns.

You can pull the same kind of LED brokeness w/ Study as Brainstorm, and you can actually take advantage of the discard unlike the put 2 back.

[Tacosnape]

Careful Study's draw two is weaker than Brainstorm's draw three. Careful Study can't put a Narcomoeba back atop your library (This is pretty crucial, as more Narcomoebas will let you catch back up in your momentum for not running Breakthrough). And Careful Study doesn't dig as deeply when you need an answer.

And no you can't pull the same LED Brokenness with Study as you can Brainstorm. Brainstorm's an instant, meaning it allows you to combo with Breakthrough/LED or 2nd Brainstorm/LED for the ridiculous Dredge 6-or-7 followed by the Deep Analysis off the LED for the near automatic turn 2 win.

Study just felt weak to me. I don't like draw two-or-less cards that have to be in my opening hand (This is also why I think Street Wraith sucks ass in Ichorid). The only draw two I run is Analysis, because it works from my Graveyard. Everything else (Brainstorm, Coliseum, Breakthrough) draws three or more.

[xsockmonkeyx]

I think its possible to fit both Brainstorm and Breakthrough as 4 of's into the main if you cut back both the Dread Return and the Deep Analysis engines. I was goldfishing around today with this list and it seemed pretty consistent.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

4 Brainstorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

[Tacosnape]

I think its possible to fit both Brainstorm and Breakthrough as 4 of's into the main if you cut back both the Dread Return and the Deep Analysis engines. I was goldfishing around today with this list and it seemed pretty consistent.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp

4 Brainstorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

That's a fine list except for the 3 Putrid Imp part. Putrid Imp is ungodly strong. It's your best discard outlet, it ditches to Ichorid in the yard, flashes Therapy/Return, and beats for 2 evasively each turn in aggro stalemates while your zombie tokens hold down the fort. I think I would cut a Thug to go back up to the fourth Imp in that list, assuming you want to keep the 4 Breaks. 10 Dredgers isn't as bad as it seems when you're running the extra dig and draw.

[dlevsApiJ]

Isn't Careful Study better then Brainstorm?

And the list looks very cool, with the 4th Imp :).

Mvg

[xsockmonkeyx]

Yes, the 3rd Thug and 4th Putrid Imp slots can be switched because Imp is awesome. I had it that way for a bit but that extra dredger is nice with all of the draw 3/4 spells because you tend to want a dredger in your opening hand. Jury is still out on that one.

I really like the 8 Blue draw spells, makes opening hands with LED/Draw3,4 turn 1 bustedness much more likely.

[myselves]

Better cut one Ichorid, you won't need four.

Brainstorm is an amazing idea, I've tested it a few times now, but I won't play it instead of Breakthrough, cause Breakthrough is better and nearly like LED+BS.

@dlevsApiJ: No, it isn't, Tacosnape had explained why three posts before yours.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Better cut one Ichorid, you won't need four.

Yes, good idea. -1 Ichorid. +1 Imp seems reasonable. Ichorid doesnt come into play until turn 2-3 and this version has a lot of stuff to do on turn 1 and 2 where you would rather see an Imp and/or Thug.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp

4 Brainstorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

[dlevsApiJ]

Better cut one Ichorid, you won't need four.

Brainstorm is an amazing idea, I've tested it a few times now, but I won't play it instead of Breakthrough, cause Breakthrough is better and nearly like LED+BS.

@dlevsApiJ: No, it isn't, Tacosnape had explained why three posts before yours.

Thanks, very stupid from me :confused:
And cutting 1 Ichorid seemd better then cutting the Dredger, yeah :smile:

Mvg

[BreathWeapon]

Thanks, very stupid from me :confused:
And cutting 1 Ichorid seemd better then cutting the Dredger, yeah :smile:

Mvg

It's not an irrefutable argument, I'm not convinced that Brainstorm is better than Careful Study at all, if Brainstorm bricks than Careful Study would have been superior and multiple Brainstorms are worse than multiple Careful Study. Careful Study also sets up plays that Brainstorm doesn't, like Dredging or activating Ichorid on your second turn, Dredging to reach Threshold for Cephalid Coliseum or Dredging to discard additional Dredgers for Breakthrough. I don't think drawing 3 is that much better than drawing 2 and discarding 2, even with the Narcomoeba trick, because you'd need a Narcomoeba and an outlet to make it relevant in the first place, and you'd need 3 Dredgers to take full advantage of drawing 3.

Brainstorm mite be better than Careful Study under ideal situations, but the entire point of that slot is to get the deck started and then combo with Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe or LED for speed. Brainstorm is both win more and danger of cool things compared to Careful Study, and it even encourages bad decisions like Brainstorming for an outlet when you should have gone into EOT discard mode.

I suggested removing the Deep Analysis slot for the cantrip slot awhile ago, and I've used it to good effect since then;

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Deep Analysis
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

I actually think Careful Study > Breakthrough, not in a power sense, but in a strong yet non committal sense. Careful Study gives the deck both momentum and options, which is vital when facing Tormod's Crypt.

The MD is 61 cards, but you can cut whichever card you feel is the worst 4x, I cut a Gemstone Mine a lot. The SB is in flux, but one of the most powerful cards I've found in the SB is Darkblast. It Dredges, it kills Yixlid Jailor, it kills Goblins and it shuts down Cephalid Breakfast, which is huge.

The deck is consistently faster than the multiple Deep Analysis decks, you may not win on turn one on the draw as often, but you do win on turn 2 on average more often. I don't think winning on turn one on the draw off of LED, Cephalid Coliseum and Deep Analysis is that important, because the opponent either dropped an answer to prevent you from winning on turn one or you Dredge enough to Cabal Therapy his combo/hate piece and establish enough of a board presence to become inevitable. I look at Deep Analysis in the same sense as Cephalid Sage, it's just there to give the deck a random boost while the 1cc cards do all of the work.

[laststepdown]

I've been trying Undiscovered Paradise instead of City of Brass, to stop some of the bleeding from multiple uses added to Deep Anal...so far it's been fine. Then again, I run Lotus Petal as well. Pointless post, sorry.

[Tacosnape]

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that 2 Dread Return/1 Sage/1 Flame-Kin Zealot probably isn't correct, though I'm not entirely sure what is. I think if you play Sage you need 3 Dread Returns.

Here's my reasoning as to why.

Very often, when you want to Dread Return Sage, your graveyard has 1-2 Bridges. Meaning that when you Dread Return the Sage, whether by real creatures or by generating a pair of zombies off a Therapy flashback, you're going to pick up a couple more Zombies in the process.

This means that your board, after Dread Return #1's resolution, will probably be Zombie/Zombie/Sage, at worst. At best, it might pick up another Narcomoeba or two or a few additional zombies.

Now, if you run three Returns, you probably win. Sacrifice the Sage to Flash a Therapy (You almost definitely have one in the yard after the Sage), netting more Zombie tokens, allowing you to once again Dread Return the Cephalid Sage.

If you only run two and choose to do this, you forego your Flame-Kin Zealot kill. By running a third Dread Return, assuming you've hit a second one by this point (And you probably have by this time), you get to go ahead and roll the rest of your library before you go for the Flame-Kin, who you might need more ammunition for or who might be lurking in your bottom twenty or thirty cards.

This will likely come close to finishing off your library, letting you then use Dread Return #3 on the Flame-Kin Zealot and win immediately.

[myselves]

I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that 2 Dread Return/1 Sage/1 Flame-Kin Zealot probably isn't correct, though I'm not entirely sure what is. I think if you play Sage you need 3 Dread Returns.


On the last two tournaments, I've taken part with Ichorid, I've played 2 Sages and 3 Returns. This allows better actions, and Sage is one of the best cards in the deck, cause it decreases the chance to fizzle. I just play two Sages, cause if you do, you'll always have one in the Graveyard.


It's not an irrefutable argument, I'm not convinced that Brainstorm is better than Careful Study at all, if Brainstorm bricks than Careful Study would have been superior and multiple Brainstorms are worse than multiple Careful Study.

But as fast as you can, you don't want to draw cards with anything else than a recurring Sage. In more than 90% of the games, you won't cast more than one Study/Breakthrough/Brainstorm.
And Brainstorm allows cazy actions with LED and Breakthrough, so a Breakthrough+ Brainstorm is much better than two Studies.

[dlevsApiJ]

It's not an irrefutable argument, I'm not convinced that Brainstorm is better than Careful Study at all, if Brainstorm bricks than Careful Study would have been superior and multiple Brainstorms are worse than multiple Careful Study.

I said that it was stupid from me, because I don't looked 3 posts above ;).

And at the list on top of this page, I want to play that list with 1 Dread Return and 1 Sage more, what are the best cards to cut?


Mvg

[xsockmonkeyx]

Both BW and Taco make good points but in a sense we are taking two different cards and assigning them the same role. Careful Study is more of a set up card and Brainstorm is more of a combo piece so really the issue is whether you want more setup or combo potential.

In initial testing with a split of both I found instances where Careful Study would have been better than Brainstorm and visa versa but one was not better often enough to justify cutting the other completely. In other words I think there might be a place for both cards in the deck.

The card that is the win more IMO is Deep Analysis. DA only comes up if you are already comboing out then dredging 2 more times in that instance probably doesnt offset seeing DA as a brick in your opening grip at other times.

[BreathWeapon]

On the last two tournaments, I've taken part with Ichorid, I've played 2 Sages and 3 Returns. This allows better actions, and Sage is one of the best cards in the deck, cause it decreases the chance to fizzle. I just play two Sages, cause if you do, you'll always have one in the Graveyard.



But as fast as you can, you don't want to draw cards with anything else than a recurring Sage. In more than 90% of the games, you won't cast more than one Study/Breakthrough/Brainstorm.
And Brainstorm allows cazy actions with LED and Breakthrough, so a Breakthrough+ Brainstorm is much better than two Studies.

Who cares if Brainstorm + Breakthrough is better than 2 Careful Studies, and it isn't, trust me, if 2 Brainstorms are awful? Brainstorm does not put the deck in a position to Dredge, and that is not acceptable.

@Tacosnape

True, but I look at Cephalid Sage as Dread Return Cephalid Sage, Dredge into the second Dread Return, Dread Return Flame Kin Zealot and end the game or Dredge into the second Dread Return, Mind Twist the opponent's hand and then Dread Return Golgari Grave Troll and just win with a handful of tokens, an X/X and Ichorids in short order.

I'm not from the "combo out" school of Ichorid, what a lot of people fail to understand is that once Ichorid is in a position to win, it wins, and when it wins is often irrelevant. As long as Cabal Therapy keeps the opponent off of his combo pieces, and as long as you continue to Dredge Cabal Therapy, you're inevitable. A lot of the time I want to cut Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin Zealot altogether and max Dread Return, because after the first Dread Return it's all down hill from there.

If you honestly ask yourself what do you need the combo kill against, ironically your answer is Goblins, where Bridge from Below is at its worst. Unless you're running head to head vs Storm Combo, a match up where either your SB shines or your opponent SBs Leyline of the Void and you scoop, you don't have a reason to include dead cards for "win now" as opposed to cards that put you in a position to win.

The deck drives itself, you just have turn on the ignition.

@DlevsApiJ

The cards I'd cut are, Golgari Thug, Putrid Imp and Gemstone Mine for 60 cards and a 3 Dread Return, 2 Cephalid Sage and 1 Flame Kin Zealot package, altho' I don't see the need for a second Cephalid Sage.

@XsockmonkeyX

The amusing thing is that Careful Study and Brainstorm are good together, but with out Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough. Brainstorm's best application is as a strategic weapon against Tormod's Crypt, where the deck is holding back threats with Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Careful Study and Brainstorm instead of committing its entire hand with Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm not from the "combo out" school of Ichorid, what a lot of people fail to understand is that once Ichorid is in a position to win, it wins, and when it wins is often irrelevant. As long as Cabal Therapy keeps the opponent off of his combo pieces, and as long as you continue to Dredge Cabal Therapy, you're inevitable. A lot of the time I want to cut Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin Zealot altogether and max Dread Return, because after the first Dread Return it's all down hill from there.

When any deck is in position to win, it wins, to be fair. Personally, I've been testing a ton against Thresh and Landstill, which are in my opinion the two worst matchups, due to them being able to play the long game with little to no investment so much better, and Cabal Therapy is often irrelevant (Landstill just Brainstorms back it's Deed/EE, counters your Therapy, or Facts into new answers, Thresh Counterbalances/hard counters the Therapy). Both decks pack answers to you when you give more time.

In my testing, I've almost always been forced to go for the throat via Flame Kin, just because they can randomly topdeck (or not so randomly) into EE or Deed, of which this deck has no answers. Giving your opponent an extra turn when you can just win then and there seems to be rather terrible against most of the metagame at the moment, in my opinion. Ichorid is supposed to be explosive and win the turn it combos off, because of it's total lack of a backup plan if it's disrupted.

[myselves]

When any deck is in position to win, it wins, to be fair. Personally, I've been testing a ton against Thresh and Landstill, which are in my opinion the two worst matchups, ...

Are you serious?
***** is the best MU, you have enough cards out of the CB reach, and he can't handle Bridge from Below pre or postboard.
4c Landstill is not as good as *****, but ~60% for you, the clock of Landstill is to slow and gives you enough time, to try again if Deed/EE kills you token.

@BreathWeapon: you run Careful Study, but only one DA, DA is much better than Study, cause you have LED, and as fast as you can, you don't want to draw cards, the only exceptions are cards you can flashback, like DA.

[DeathwingZERO]

Are you serious?
***** is the best MU, you have enough cards out of the CB reach, and he can't handle Bridge from Below pre or postboard.
4c Landstill is not as good as *****, but ~60% for you, the clock of Landstill is to slow and gives you enough time, to try again if Deed/EE kills you token.

@BreathWeapon: you run Careful Study, but only one DA, DA is much better than Study, cause you have LED, and as fast as you can, you don't want to draw cards, the only exceptions are cards you can flashback, like DA.

I'm really curious what lists you've been testing against. Here's a bit of what I've had to test against:

-Red splash Thresh gets EE and Pyroclasm, both of which wipe non-hasty Zombies.

-UG gets Wasteland vs your entire land base, Stifle maindecked against your Bridges, and EE that they can use @ 0 vs zombies or 1 to blow up Imp and their own Mongeese, in order to take down Bridges mid-combo.

-White splash in my area still packs Mage, which you have no answer to when he drops early, making you rushed on getting a Therapy opening hand, because if they hit DR, Ichorids tend to be pretty terrible vs 6/7 Goyfs thanks to your graveyard's Enchantments, Lands, Creatures, Sorceries, and Artifacts, along with their Instants.

4c Landstill turned into a slaughterhouse post board. They have maindeck Deed, EE, inevitability past turn 4-5, and then have access to siding in Leyline of the Void and Crypt in addition. I literally won 1 game in 20, because my opponent would either see Leyline in opening hand, or have a Crypt out and enough counters or gas to get to turn 4 to dropping Leyline. First turn Leyline kept me from every win condition short of hard casting Narcomoeba and Imps, which is hardly relevant vs a 4/4 first striker that's online as soon as turn 4.

I'm not sure if your seeing the same types of hate as I am, but it's really starting to shake my foundation in this deck's ability to cope, which I always thought was pretty strong until this last week.

[myselves]

I'm really curious what lists you've been testing against. Here's a bit of what I've had to test against:


vs. normal Grow or Landstill builds.
And yes, you're right, they have the hate, but often it is to slow to stop your combo, and if it works, both decks are to slow, if they start with MM stoping return, you dig out Ichorids and the Token, if they kill your Token, your next turn Ichorid comes back, takes a few of their LP and gives you new token.

Grow doesn't play Wasteland, cause they have CB+Cantrips, often they don't even play Stifle.

If they board LotV, the MU isn't so good, you just can try to bounce them.
But I've never seen a Landstill or Grow(without B-splash) boarding LotV, and Crypt is not a big problem as you think.

[Tacosnape]

@Deathwing: You're out of your mind. Threshold is a cakewalk. Threshold is the reason you play this deck.

You don't need a manabase to beat U/G Threshold, and they can't Stifle your manabase unless you're running Fetchlands for some reason, which you shouldn't be. All you need to beat UG Threshold is to get a Troll/Imp in your yard. Then you dredge big guys, play Ichorids and Narcomoebas, and win.

UGR Thresh isn't really much harder. EE and Pyroclasm might sweep your zombies, but you can make more pretty easily. They can sometimes win on back to back to back to back sweeps/crypts with Goyfs backing it up, but this doesn't happen more than about half the time in my experience, and you're still going to take game one about 90% of the time.

[Bovinious]

To me I feel that 58 cards of the MD are set in stone, and for the last 2 I'm debating between Dread Return 3 and Sage 2, or 2 Careful Study. I actually agree with BW about Careful study being better than Brainstorm here...but i dont know why anyone would want to cut DA, LED doesnt seem to have much point without it.

[myselves]

To me I feel that 58 cards of the MD are set in stone, and for the last 2 I'm debating between Dread Return 3 and Sage 2, or 2 Careful Study. I actually agree with BW about Careful study being better than Brainstorm here...but i dont know why anyone would want to cut DA, LED doesnt seem to have much point without it.

In my opinion the three returns are shall be played, I personal would always run two Sages, to be sure that you'll always have one in your yard.
The Studies aren't needed I still think, they're just inferior Breakthroughs, not more.

[DeathwingZERO]

@Deathwing: You're out of your mind. Threshold is a cakewalk. Threshold is the reason you play this deck.

You don't need a manabase to beat U/G Threshold, and they can't Stifle your manabase unless you're running Fetchlands for some reason, which you shouldn't be. All you need to beat UG Threshold is to get a Troll/Imp in your yard. Then you dredge big guys, play Ichorids and Narcomoebas, and win.

UGR Thresh isn't really much harder. EE and Pyroclasm might sweep your zombies, but you can make more pretty easily. They can sometimes win on back to back to back to back sweeps/crypts with Goyfs backing it up, but this doesn't happen more than about half the time in my experience, and you're still going to take game one about 90% of the time.

Game one is never really a problem, unless they draw well. But game two gets them more EE, and more sorcery-speed answers in general. This is the main reason I continue to pack at least 3 DR, because I WANT to get that Flame Kin in play ASAP. Relying on Ichorid beats against Thresh is basically a losing battle. They can trade Mongoose against your Ichorids, killing off your Bridges and keeping their Goyf's in the meantime, and that's not even counting if they have white for StP or red for Bolt and Fire/Ice. The white splash is even more painful, because they only need the StP against your Ichorids, killing off what little chance the deck has at getting more zombies out over time.

From the sound of it, your games aren't going through any type of hate at all, let alone a clock. When I see Thresh killing Ichorid as soon as turn 4, that makes me wonder what's going wrong with the versions I see compared to other people.

And for the record, I'd say I'm seeing about a 70% favor for UGw Thresh I play against post-board, which is very closely based on the list Bardo threw out for our last Batcave tournament. Mage, StP, EE, Stifle and a clock are just bad for this deck's game plan. I'll continue with testing it and see if I can evolve a different strategy, but I'm still under the impression if Thresh was such a good matchup, this deck should be seeing WAY more showings, as the rest of the format short of TES or Breakfast is almost always too slow for this.

[Bovinious]

Was that post a joke? Thresh is pretty much a byw for Ichorid, and the reason it doesnt post more showings is because few play the deck because of incorrect notions about it scooping to single cards, and people who play it often play it badly, such as whoever you are citing that loses to Thresh 70% of the time...

[spirit of the wretch]

I'm just back from GP: Stuttgart where I played this deck at the legacy sideevent. I finished 7/1/0 taking 2nd place as the only person with 21 points. I played Taco's Brainstorm-tech (cuttet 3 Gambles for it) and was very pleased with it. I don't know if I like it better than Gamble in this slot, but it definatly is a very good card!
I will write a more detailed report tomorrow.

P.S.: For the love of god, put this deck back in the DTB forum! It really is THAT good.

[BreathWeapon]

To me I feel that 58 cards of the MD are set in stone, and for the last 2 I'm debating between Dread Return 3 and Sage 2, or 2 Careful Study. I actually agree with BW about Careful study being better than Brainstorm here...but i dont know why anyone would want to cut DA, LED doesnt seem to have much point without it.

LED is a huge, huge, huge card even with out DA, LED combos with Breakthrough, LED combos with Careful Study, LED combos with Cephalid Coliseum and LED even discards your entire hand by itself for 0 mana.

After using LED in Vintage Ichorid, what I noticed was the best hand that deck draws is Bazaar of Baghdad, Dredgers and LED. The LED puts the Dredgers in position to be Dredged on the first turn, which leads to either a turn one or turn two win 99% of the time.

DA is, in essence, a bad Careful Study on the play. You're best play is to cast either one of them before or after LED, but DA is useless with out LED where Careful Study is effective. What you want is to maximize your Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED plays and then run just enough DA in order to spend the remaining UU and Dredge a second time.

What I found was that Dredge was built on a bad premise, we took Manaless Ichorid and kept the original engine with out questioning whether or not the original engine was superior to draw spell + LED, and it turns out that it isn't, because people aren't drawing after the coin flip, and relying on being on the draw to maximize your speed is dubious for a number of very obvious reasons.

I have to admit tho', I have been looking at 4 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study and 4 Deep Analysis, removing Putrid Imp for Nether Shadow and removing Gemstone Mine for Deep Analysis. The idea is that adding Careful Study A) increases/maintains outlets B) consolidates mana costs into U C) reduces the need for lands D) supports Force of Will in the SB and Putrid Imps function is replaced by EOT discard/dredge and increased threat density from Nether Shadow when it matters the most, game 2 on the draw where the opponent elects to go first in order to drop Tormod's Crypt.

It's 100% experimental, but I think it goes to show you that there are a lot of things we've taken for granted, and Dredge is not set in stone.

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot

Note: It's often 4 Dread Return because I hate Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin Zealot and Dread Return is superior in draw, discard, dredge mode.

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Deep Analysis

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

It operates under the assumption that Putrid Imp is both A) too slow and B) worthless in the discard pile compared to Nether Shadow, which feeds Ichorid, recurs itself and is a permanent threat. It focuses on the fundamentals, the LED, Cephalid Coliseum and DA engine on the draw, the LED, Breakthrough or Careful Study and DA engine on the play and is superior in draw, discard and dredge mode thanks to Nether Shadow. You lose some consistency, like 2 lands for Cephalid Coliseum, one land for Breakthrough or Careful Study and one land for Cabal Therapy, but you also gain consistency in Careful Study, LED + DA at 4x and Nether Shadow.

I don't have enough practice with that list, but in theory, it's the farthest you can push the deck in terms of speed and the strongest you can make the deck in terms of draw, discard, dredge (sans Street Wraith).

Edit: I've also tried replacing City of Brass with Lotus Petal for hands of Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough and land, where I could Breakthrough on the first turn and then activate Cephalid Coliseum on the second turn with Lotus Petal or draw, discard, drege and then activate Cephalid Coliseum with Lotus Petal once Dredgers were in position, but you lose a lot of other plays as well, Careful Study and Breakthrough, 2xCareful Study, Cabal Therapy protection etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like Putrid Imp, and I love turn one Land, Putrid Imp pass. Dredge and then either Breakthrough, Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum, but you have to run 12 lands just for Putrid Imp, albeit those 12 lands also support Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis, Cabal Therapy and the SB to an extent, but any cards that forces you to run lands in Dredge is bad.

I'm sure there is a medium for all of these concepts, but at the moment I don't have the time to come to a conclusion, and other people's opinions may differ on said conclusion. All I know for certain is that 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study and 1 DA is the starting point for the best possible Dredge deck, the rest is in 1+ DA, the land ratio and whether or not Putrid Imp and additional lands is worth 4- DA and Nether Shadow.

@DeathWingZero

That's not true, just because a deck is in a position to win doesn't mean it will win, Goblins is in a position to win when it has a board full of Goblins, but one Pernicious Deed eliminates its position. Dredge is a deck that doesn't have an answer, at least game 1, so once its in a position to win, there's nothing the opponent can do about it. With draw, discard, dredge, there isn't even much an opponent can do to prevent you from establishing a position to win, provided your clock is fast enough.

[Lemuria]

Also, Thresh will not have a Stifle every time you reanimate a Ichorid. They might remove one or two Bridges as they trade their Mongoose vs Ichorids but that's not so relevant. Next turn you just reanimate them again, dredge into some evasive narcomoebas and just beat down. You may also therapy them to hell, as Therapy is a monster in this MU.

[dlevsApiJ]

I want to take this deck to the Belgium National Tournament (how do you call that in English?), cause the Meta there is full of Loam decks and also a lot of ***** (and maybe Pikula, MonoB).

What do you guys think what the best Fatty will be in the Sb in a Meta like that, one of the Akroma's ore something as a Simic Sky Swallower? Maybe something that gives more Protection, as Platinum Angel or Blazing Archon?


And what matchups are less good? Cause I havent tested the deck against many others..


Mvg

[Xurcks]

@dlevsApiJ :When i was using a creature to reanimate in my sideboard, i liked Simic Sky Swallower(Big one with shroud,immune to STP and lots of removal) , Platinum Angel (Ass-saver versus Combo and may auto-win if unanswered) and Blazing Archon (4 Turn Clock and keeps goyfs and other shit at bay)

[spirit of the wretch]

As promised, here's my report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=188967#post188967

[Lemuria]

That was tottaly awesome. Congratulations

Did Brainstorm make a difference at all?

[Bovinious]

LED is a huge, huge, huge card even with out DA, LED combos with Breakthrough, LED combos with Careful Study, LED combos with Cephalid Coliseum and LED even discards your entire hand by itself for 0 mana.

After using LED in Vintage Ichorid, what I noticed was the best hand that deck draws is Bazaar of Baghdad, Dredgers and LED. The LED puts the Dredgers in position to be Dredged on the first turn, which leads to either a turn one or turn two win 99% of the time.

DA is, in essence, a bad Careful Study on the play. You're best play is to cast either one of them before or after LED, but DA is useless with out LED where Careful Study is effective. What you want is to maximize your Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED plays and then run just enough DA in order to spend the remaining UU and Dredge a second time.

What I found was that Dredge was built on a bad premise, we took Manaless Ichorid and kept the original engine with out questioning whether or not the original engine was superior to draw spell + LED, and it turns out that it isn't, because people aren't drawing after the coin flip, and relying on being on the draw to maximize your speed is dubious for a number of very obvious reasons.

I have to admit tho', I have been looking at 4 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study and 4 Deep Analysis, removing Putrid Imp for Nether Shadow and removing Gemstone Mine for Deep Analysis. The idea is that adding Careful Study A) increases/maintains outlets B) consolidates mana costs into U C) reduces the need for lands D) supports Force of Will in the SB and Putrid Imps function is replaced by EOT discard/dredge and increased threat density from Nether Shadow when it matters the most, game 2 on the draw where the opponent elects to go first in order to drop Tormod's Crypt.

It's 100% experimental, but I think it goes to show you that there are a lot of things we've taken for granted, and Dredge is not set in stone.

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba

4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot

Note: It's often 4 Dread Return because I hate Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin Zealot and Dread Return is superior in draw, discard, dredge mode.

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Deep Analysis

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

It operates under the assumption that Putrid Imp is both A) too slow and B) worthless in the discard pile compared to Nether Shadow, which feeds Ichorid, recurs itself and is a permanent threat. It focuses on the fundamentals, the LED, Cephalid Coliseum and DA engine on the draw, the LED, Breakthrough or Careful Study and DA engine on the play and is superior in draw, discard and dredge mode thanks to Nether Shadow. You lose some consistency, like 2 lands for Cephalid Coliseum, one land for Breakthrough or Careful Study and one land for Cabal Therapy, but you also gain consistency in Careful Study, LED + DA at 4x and Nether Shadow.

I don't have enough practice with that list, but in theory, it's the farthest you can push the deck in terms of speed and the strongest you can make the deck in terms of draw, discard, dredge (sans Street Wraith).

Edit: I've also tried replacing City of Brass with Lotus Petal for hands of Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough and land, where I could Breakthrough on the first turn and then activate Cephalid Coliseum on the second turn with Lotus Petal or draw, discard, drege and then activate Cephalid Coliseum with Lotus Petal once Dredgers were in position, but you lose a lot of other plays as well, Careful Study and Breakthrough, 2xCareful Study, Cabal Therapy protection etc.

Don't get me wrong, I like Putrid Imp, and I love turn one Land, Putrid Imp pass. Dredge and then either Breakthrough, Careful Study or Cephalid Coliseum, but you have to run 12 lands just for Putrid Imp, albeit those 12 lands also support Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, Deep Analysis, Cabal Therapy and the SB to an extent, but any cards that forces you to run lands in Dredge is bad.

I'm sure there is a medium for all of these concepts, but at the moment I don't have the time to come to a conclusion, and other people's opinions may differ on said conclusion. All I know for certain is that 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Breakthrough, 4 Careful Study and 1 DA is the starting point for the best possible Dredge deck, the rest is in 1+ DA, the land ratio and whether or not Putrid Imp and additional lands is worth 4- DA and Nether Shadow.

Making the deck more combo-ish and faster with more draw and less PImp seems interesting, although this seems to me to make the deck VERY reliant on LED because DA, Coliseum, and sometimes Breakthrough really are bad without LED in that build. You could possibly add Serum Powder to find LED much like Vintage lists use it to find Bazaar, but im not sure this is worth it because always using LED forces you to go all out and be vulnerable to FoW on LED and GY hate postboard where Imp/Tribe would help you play around Crypt. Also, I dont think 8 lands is enough if you always want to see one, in extended I run 10 and still dont draw land sometimes, and your list really seems to want to cast things for U.

[myselves]

And what matchups are less good? Cause I havent tested the deck against many others..


Raffinity and Fastcombo aren't good MUs, Raffinity rapes you preboard, but postboard they have problems to handle the LotV. Fastcombo in general and Belcher special are nearly Autoloss.
Gobo is preboard~45-50%, postboard maybe a bit better or not, depends on the draw I would guess, they have an amazing Start with Land, Fanatic go, and they have enough things to handle your bridges, and the beatdown don't work so if they know what you are playing it may be a little bit more difficult.
Landstill(2c) and *****/Grow are nearly the best MUs~70-75%, the MU against some Roguedecks depends of the skill of your opponents.

And I would run the Angel in the SB, the next option I would play are Homura or the Blazing Archon for BD, and during my last testings Homura was realy good, who can take 10-15 damage every turn just by Ichorid?

[dlevsApiJ]

And I would run the Angel in the SB

Which angel? There are 3 I talked about ;P

[Xurcks]

@dlevsApiJ : I think he's talking about Platinum Angel
@myselves:if you liked homura,why don't use silver seraph in it's place?
He beats for 6 in the air,doesn't need to die to be useful and his ability gives +2/+2 anyway with threshold,what should not be difficult to acquire with this deck :P

[myselves]

@dlevsApiJ : I think he's talking about Platinum Angel
@myselves:if you liked homura,why don't use silver seraph in it's place?
He beats for 6 in the air,doesn't need to die to be useful and his ability gives +2/+2 anyway with threshold,what should not be difficult to acquire with this deck :P

Yes I do, sry, but I thought you would understand.
I play Homura, because:
1) it gives your Token and Ichorid Evasion.
2) you can sacc it for more token and to get another creature back, and you have no problem to kill you own creatures, trust me.

This are things that Seraph can't do.

[diffy]

Which angel? There are 3 I talked about ;P


Platin Angel (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/228.html)
Artifact Creature - Angel 4/4, 7 (7)
Flying.
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.

Played for buying turns against Combo and against random aggro. I still wouldn't waste a sideboard slot on him as if you hit both a 1off and one out of 2-3 Dread Returns, you're probably in such a good shape against combo that you could just rape his hand with multiple Cabal Therpies and swing in for the win now or next turn.
He's near to useless against random aggro too as I board out the Dread Return package to have room for Leyline of the Void/Chalice of the Void and Chain of Vapor.

This is my board which serves me well:

4 Leyline of the Void (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/52.html)
4 Chalice of the Void (http://magiccards.info/mi/en/150.html)
4 Chain of Vapor (http://magiccards.info/on/en/73.html)
2 Ancient Grudge (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/143.html)
1 Ray of Revelation (http://magiccards.info/ju/en/20.html)


Leyline of the Void comes in against any fast deck (red based aggro, goblins etc) that can race a bad hand of yours and disrupt your Bridges by sending their creatures to the graveyard (with stuff like Mogg Fanatic or via directing a burn spell at them). It is also gold in the mirror and against some more exotic decks like Cephalid Breakfast or Iggy Pop.
Ancient Grudge is there to fight Tormod's Crypt while being able to continue Dredging. It is also brought in against troublesome Artifacts such as Ensnaring Bridge, Umezawa's Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice, Engineered Explosives etc.
Ray of Revelation is mainly there to kill oposing Engineered Plagues (naming Zombies or Horror) as it is too slow to remove a Leyline of the Void (you seldomly have more than 1 mana). It is also brought in against random stuff like Moat, Humility or Planar Void.
Chalice of the Void is your swiss-knife. It is multi purpose shutting off any Tormod's Crypts or Engineered Explosives for a mehre 0 mana while still being able to kill Extirpate and slow your aggro-control opponents down significantly at 2 mana. It is also brought in against any storm combo and played at 0 (depriving them off their fast mana) to slow them down enough to disrupt and kill them.
Chain of Vapor is just general awesomness and comes always in against the hate your opponent might have.

Other cool tech if you expect a creature heavy metagame:
Firestorm (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/101.html) which acts as a discard outlet and a board sweeper all in one.

[myselves]

Other cool tech if you expect a creature heavy metagame:
Firestorm (http://magiccards.info/wl/en/101.html) which acts as a discard outlet and a board sweeper all in one.

I've played the same SB on my last tournament, the Chalice is just useful in a Meta dominated by Fastcombo, but I woul run it, anyway, the only problem is, that you haven't the Slot for the Angel. Which could be missed in some MUs.
I've tested Firestorm instead of PImp, but it's just great against Jailer, PImp always will have the advantage, that it could 'feed' Ichorid.

[Bovinious]

I dont know why everyone is discussing all of these unneccessary big creatures for the SB, the optimal SB is probably the one Der imaginare Freund posted, except mine is 2 Ray 1 Grudge, and possibly Needle instead of Chalice, depending on personal preference and meta.

Also, Firestorm is awful because all of the targets need to unique so turn 1 you could probably only lose 2 cards to it and have to shoot urself, its def worse than Tireless Tribe (dont laugh, he works in Extended anyway) and maybe even One With Nothing /shiver.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

@Homura

I play this guy since about one month and took my version to the last Iserlohn-tournament. He was pretty awesome. He really won me games that were unwinable without him.

This was the list I played, but I just went 4-3-0 :( :

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [SOK] Homura, Human Ascendant

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [TO] Breakthrough
2 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

[spirit of the wretch]

That was tottaly awesome. Congratulations

Did Brainstorm make a difference at all?

They were pretty solid all day long, winning me at least two games. The question is, whether they are better than the Gambles I played in this slot before. Gamble seems like the more powerful spell, but the ability to cast BS off a Coliseum is incredibly important.
As a side note: I never put Narcomoebas back with BS... it just didn't happen.
Either way: Big Props to Taco for suggesting them although I still feel it's completly wrong to cut Breakthrough.

[BreathWeapon]

Making the deck more combo-ish and faster with more draw and less PImp seems interesting, although this seems to me to make the deck VERY reliant on LED because DA, Coliseum, and sometimes Breakthrough really are bad without LED in that build. You could possibly add Serum Powder to find LED much like Vintage lists use it to find Bazaar, but im not sure this is worth it because always using LED forces you to go all out and be vulnerable to FoW on LED and GY hate postboard where Imp/Tribe would help you play around Crypt. Also, I dont think 8 lands is enough if you always want to see one, in extended I run 10 and still dont draw land sometimes, and your list really seems to want to cast things for U.

The ratios need to be adjusted, I go back and forth on the number of Golgari Thugs, Ichorids, Nether Shadows, Dread Return package and Deep Analysis for lands or Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal. I like the idea of cutting Putrid Imp for Nether Shadow and running less land, Nether Shadow is just an untapped resource in this deck, and if the deck functions with out Putrid Imp, all the better.

[Tacosnape]

Platinum Angel in sideboard is a completely awful idea. If you've dredged enough to have 3 creatures in play, Angel in the yard, and Dread Return in the yard, then you've Dredged enough to unload on somebody's face with a series of Cabal Therapy flashbacks, which will buy you the time you need to win.

[BreathWeapon]

Platinum Angel in sideboard is a completely awful idea. If you've dredged enough to have 3 creatures in play, Angel in the yard, and Dread Return in the yard, then you've Dredged enough to unload on somebody's face with a series of Cabal Therapy flashbacks, which will buy you the time you need to win.

Not to mention that now that Swords to Plowshares isn't as omni present as it once was, reanimating Golgari Grave Troll as an X/X is often more than enough, Smother, Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict can't touch him, tho' Shriekmaw is the god of all removal spells for being able to to kill Golgari Grave Troll and remove Bridge from Below at the same time.

[Tacosnape]

Not to mention that now that Swords to Plowshares isn't as omni present as it once was, reanimating Golgari Grave Troll as an X/X is often more than enough, Smother, Ghastly Demise and Diabolic Edict can't touch him, tho' Shriekmaw is the god of all removal spells for being able to to kill Golgari Grave Troll and remove Bridge from Below at the same time.

This is true. GGT is a pretty fantastic reanimation target in certain circumstances.

Unless they have a Genesis/Shriekmaw lock (BGW or BGR Survival,) even Shriekmaw shouldn't be a problem, as I can Cabal Therapy the daylights out of someone before reanimating GGT (And I can't imagine I would ever Dread Return GGT without doing so unless I had no other choice.)

[dlevsApiJ]

If you have a hand without land, some dredgers, and some cards as PImp, Ichord, D Return etc. So its a hand with only Dredgers, and cards you can't use because you have no lands. Do you keep a hand like this when you are on the draw (against an unknown deck)? And when you are on the play (also against an unknown deck)?

And when you mulled to 6? I think you dont keep an hand like that then (ecpecially not when you are on the play)..

And when you know against what deck you play, what should you do then with a hand like that?

Thats the only thinh of the deck where I make mistakes, with hand to keep or not...

Hope someone can answer :)


Mvg

[diffy]

If you have a hand without land, some dredgers, and some cards as PImp, Ichord, D Return etc. So its a hand with only Dredgers, and cards you can't use because you have no lands.


Depends whether you are in game1 or after boarding.
Before boarding and on the draw, a 7 cards hand with a Dredger is a keep especially if you know that you're up against something slow like Landstill or NQG. Even if you aren't sure about what you're up agaisnt, I'd still keep that hand as it offers a discard outlet (the end of turn discard step) and dredgers which should beat about anything but Goblins preboard. Also you have the random chance of drawing a land for your Putrid Imp which would make the hand even nicer.
Before boarding, if that hand would be 6 cards, I'd keep it against anything slow (NQG, LS) and give the opponent a time walk. If you're up against something fast, I'd still keep that hand because you have 2 draw steps to find a land to play Putrid Imp so that you can then play around any sac-creatures.

You're never really up against totally unknow opponents as deck (and sideboard)-spying should be your primary occupation between the rounds and because you can always guess what is most probably that you play against depending on your meta. Try also to be very attentive when your opponent shuffles his deck so maybe that you get to see one of his cards. If you see something blue, go for the eot-discard mode and value high card count hands with dredgers faciliating the eot-discard mode over broken/explosive hands with fewer cards as they leave you totally down if your discard outlet gets countered.

After boarding, that hand is a definate mulligan. You just can't afford to keep a hand that has no answer to whatever hate your opponent might have brought in and that has to topdeck both a land and a solution in order to do something if your opponent does have that Leyline/Planar Void/Crypt etc.

[Illissius]

This is true. GGT is a pretty fantastic reanimation target in certain circumstances.

Unless they have a Genesis/Shriekmaw lock (BGW or BGR Survival,) even Shriekmaw shouldn't be a problem, as I can Cabal Therapy the daylights out of someone before reanimating GGT (And I can't imagine I would ever Dread Return GGT without doing so unless I had no other choice.)

Even if they have Shriekmaw, you can just regenerate the Troll.

[BreathWeapon]

Even if they have Shriekmaw, you can just regenerate the Troll.

I just addressed this in a PM, but you can't regenerate Golgari Grave Troll in response to a Shriekmaw as often as you think, a lot of the time the deck either taps out, sacrifices its lands or never has a land in play to begin with. You can't afford to wait for the mana either, since the Shriekmaw will remove Bridge from Below and the Zombie Tokens are more important than the Golgari Grave Troll, and you can always sacrifice the Zombie Tokens to reanimate the Golgari Grave Troll again.

4 Shriemaw can be a pain, especially if you're in draw, discard, dredge mode.

[myselves]

He was pretty awesome. He really won me games that were unwinable without him.


Yes, I like you list (cuz I played a very similar for weeks, except -1Thug, +1 DA).

And I agree with Der_imaginäre_Freund, preboard you can keep the hand, postboard just shuffle, the reasons are clear.

[dlevsApiJ]

I think of cutting the Flame-Kin and the Saga, they are very cool, but instead of winning with them you can also Therapy as hell and winn one turn later,, so you have some more slots... I think of still playing 1/2 DReturn to Return a Troll...
Instead of the cards you cut you can play more cards like Careful Study/Brainstorm, and some more DA (I played only 2).
Here's a list:


See my new list..


Should I play 0, 1 or 2 D Return?
Maybe only play the Saga, and not the Flame-Kin (cause Sage is soo good...)

Is this an option?


Mvg

EDIT: yes, of course play the Saga, stupid me :S..
Something as:
- 1 Ichorid
- 1 ? (Careful Study? or DA?)

+ 2 Saga

And should 2 DReturn and 2 Saga be good?

[myselves]

I think of cutting the Flame-Kin and the Saga, they are very cool, but instead of winning
Why? How could anything be better than an instant win?
Before Zealot you can flashback the four Therapys, if you want, but often you won't need every therapy you got and it won't be necessary.


And should 2 DReturn and 2 Saga be good?
It's o.k., some players want two, other three Returns, I'm a fan of running three returns, because they can do a lot in the deck, but without Zealot...
And why are you playing 4 Ichorids? One Zealot and three Ichorids are better than four Ichorids, an instant win in is great, a Aggro-beatdown okay, know what I mean?

[dlevsApiJ]

Yeah, I thought I could miss it, but that isn't..

Now i play this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [TO] Cephalid Saga]
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return (what should I cut for the 3rd?)
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

[diffy]

Now i play this list:


I'd suggest these changes:
-1 Deep Analysis
-3 Carefull Study
+4 Brainstorm
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Ichorid

Brainstorm is just so much more a broken card than Carefull Study, it helps digging for sideboard cards and does cute tricks with Narcomoebas.
With Brainstorm in the deck, you can go down on the dredgers. I wouldn't cut Ichorids ever because they are just a fantastic alternative wincondition and are the best tokken producer/creature you have.
Deep Analysis isn't all that great imo as it is only castable with a LED but you really need it in certain circumstances so that I wouldn't completely cut it.
Two Dread Returns are just fine.

[Tacosnape]

I'd suggest these changes:
-1 Deep Analysis
-3 Carefull Study
+4 Brainstorm
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Ichorid

Brainstorm is just so much more a broken card than Carefull Study, it helps digging for sideboard cards and does cute tricks with Narcomoebas.
With Brainstorm in the deck, you can go down on the dredgers. I wouldn't cut Ichorids ever because they are just a fantastic alternative wincondition and are the best tokken producer/creature you have.
Deep Analysis isn't all that great imo as it is only castable with a LED but you really need it in certain circumstances so that I wouldn't completely cut it.
Two Dread Returns are just fine.

I second this card for card, except I'd cut an additional Breakthrough for the 3rd Dread Return. 3 Returns >> 2 Returns due to the Cephalid Sage replay trick.


Even if they have Shriekmaw, you can just regenerate the Troll.

If you have the mana. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't.

[dlevsApiJ]

I played Brainstorm, but I didn't liked it that much cause it doesnt discard cards..
Brainstorm is better in "broken" situations,, and Study is better in "normal" situations..

I will test it, but I don't know...

And DA is sooo good, cause it makes LED's so much better...

So I test this changes:
-3 Carefull Study
+3 Brainstorm
-1 Golgari Thug
+1 Ichorid
Hope 10 Dredgers is enough..

Mvg

EDIT: I think Study is soo much better then Brainstorm...