[Deck] Ichorid

[BreathWeapon]

You can't cut Ichorid, Ichorid is a win card, Flame-Kin Zealot, or whatever else is in that slot, is a win more card. You need cards that win games in marginal situations and not cards that win games after resolving the nuts, Golgari Grave Troll, Zombie Tokens, Ichorid and Cabal Therapy are all the deck needs to win 99% of the time and Flame-Kin Zealot is the first card you SB out in any match up that brings in hate.

I don't understand people's reasoning for Brainstorm > Careful Study, because Brainstorm has been a terrible replacement for Careful Study in testing. Brainstorm doesn't help find side board cards any more than Careful Study does, in fact Brainstorm is worse than Careful Study at finding side board cards, because both cards dig 3 cards deep, but Brainstorm has to draw thru' a brick if it doesn't find the card, and Brainstorm doesn't put Ray of Revelation, Ancient Grudge or Dark Blast into your discard pile.

Just run the following gold fishing drills,

City of Brass
Careful Study
Careful Study
X
X
X
X

City of Brass
Careful Study
Breakthrough
X
X
X
X

City of Brass
Lion's Eye Diamond
Careful Study
Deep Analysis
Golgari Grave Troll
Golgari Thug
X

Cephalid Coliseum
Careful Study
X
X
X
X
X

And then run Careful Study gold fishing drills at less than 7 cards and see how often you lose the game because Careful Study was Brainstorm. This is the single most important point in the argument, Brainstorm loses the game if it bricks in these situations, Careful Study never does that. Even when Brainstorm finds an outlet, unless it's Lion's Eye Diamond, it's Time Walked the opponent into Daze where Careful Study could have been the outlet in and of itself.

Edit: People who run Flame Kin Zealot remind me of the same people who ran Pyrite Spellbomb in Bomberman, and it's the same principle here, albeit to a lesser degree, that there just isn't enough the opponent can do, or anything the opponent can do, to make waiting a turn a problem, and post board the point is moot because the Dread Return package is the first thing that gets removed for answers.

[C.P.]

Flame-Kin Zealot is the first card you SB out in any match up that brings in hate.

This is not necessary the case. If their hate is something that requires them to have a turn (e.g. anything but leyline), it might be better to have a ability to fight the hate by killing them right away. It is also worth noting that zealot makes taxing effect worse. I know Ichorids are just as good for this, but they are usually a turn or two slower than Flame-kin, allowing other slower hats to resolve.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Sorry if this issue has been discussed already, but I don't feel compelled to sift through 38 pages looking for it. Why isn't Pithing Needle played over Chalice of the Void more? As far as I comprehend, Needle stops all of the stuff Crypt does, and then some. Maybe I'm missing something. Anyone care to fill me in?

[Bovinious]

Sorry if this issue has been discussed already, but I don't feel compelled to sift through 38 pages looking for it. Why isn't Pithing Needle played over Chalice of the Void more? As far as I comprehend, Needle stops all of the stuff Crypt does, and then some. Maybe I'm missing something. Anyone care to fill me in?

I still play Needle over Chalice in my current SB, I feel that the ability to stop Crypt on the draw (which you will be on game 2) makes up for the fact you need to draw one of your 12 lands to cast it. Plus, Needle stops other stuff like Vial, Survival, en-kors/Kiki, the list goes on. The only reason I can see to run Chalice is if your meta is VERY infested with fast combo like TES/Cret/SI/Iggy where Chalice for 0 would serve as disruption for those difficult matchup as well as decent Crypt protection. Its also nice to not have to "waste" a turn to nueter Crypt, but I find thats hardly relevent since no very fast decks will be SBing Crypt against you so losing the turn is hardly relevent. If I missed any reason people play Chalice correct me but thats as far as I can figure...

[Tacosnape]

It's also worth noting that Chain of Vapor + Chalice of the Void stops Tormod's Crypt also.

Chalice is in large part played because it costs 0 to Needle's 1. Ichorid doesn't have a whole heck of a lot of mana to spare. Chalice also helps out against Storm Combo.

I think Needle is definitely worthy of some consideration, however. I don't play 4 Chalices because multiple Chalices are useless when you tend to play all of them for 0 (You can't even drop the second one for 0 to back up the first, because the first one counters it). Needle helps you out of some tough situations, and unlike a lot of your anti-hate sideboard tech, is easy to decide when to board in. Decks that don't pack black pack Tormod's Crypt, making this a pretty easy decision.

[conboy31]

It looks like I am in the slight minority but after a handful of games today against various decks I feel that Careful Study is superior to Brainstorm in current lists.

The discard 2 cards appeared to be stronger than getting to see an extra card (and potential dredge) and manipulating the immenent topdeck. I do not think putting back a 'moeba is as relevant as people are making it out to be.

For reference, I ended up using:

Dredge:
4 Trolls
4 Imp
3 Thug
Resources:
4 Gemstone
4 CBrass
4 LED
4 Cephalid
Draw:
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
2 Careful Study
Other:
4 'Moeba
4 Ichorid
1 Sage
1 Zealot
3 Putrid Imp
3 DReturn
4 Bridge

Which is almost identical to a few of the most recent lists.

[Bovinious]

It looks like I am in the slight minority but after a handful of games today against various decks I feel that Careful Study is superior to Brainstorm in current lists.

The discard 2 cards appeared to be stronger than getting to see an extra card (and potential dredge) and manipulating the immenent topdeck. I do not think putting back a 'moeba is as relevant as people are making it out to be.

I dont think you are in the minority at all actually, most people who have actually played this deck for a long time and know it well recognize Careful Study is obviously better and more synergetic with this deck, whats up for debate now is how many should we play and in place of what.

[diffy]

Why isn't Pithing Needle played over Chalice of the Void more? As far as I comprehend, Needle stops all of the stuff Crypt does, and then some.


Basically what people said:
- Chalice is better against fast combo
- Chalice costs 0 mana

And I'd like to add that:
- Chalice stops Engineered Explosives at 0 (at least semi-permanently) and so buys time
- Chalice is a great out to Extirpate if you get paired against control where you have time to find 2 lands

[dlevsApiJ]

And I'd like to add that:
- Chalice is a great out to Extirpate if you get paired against control where you have time to find 2 lands

Yeah, never thought about that, I play CotV because it cost 0 mana and it also stops EE, but I hate Extirpate soo much, so I like this play :). Never thought about it.

And I found Flame-Kin to be very good, because you can say you Therapy away there whole hand,, but they still have a topdeck (and when they play Brainstorm, they put their Deed/EE on top of their deck..). So I keep playing 1.

[xsockmonkeyx]

And I'd like to add that:
- Chalice stops Engineered Explosives at 0 (at least semi-permanently) and so buys time

Yes, this is true. Keep in mind that if they have colorless sources they can still resolve an Explosives at zero around a Chalice at 1.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Basically what people said:
- Chalice is better against fast combo
- Chalice costs 0 mana

And I'd like to add that:
- Chalice stops Engineered Explosives at 0 (at least semi-permanently) and so buys time
- Chalice is a great out to Extirpate if you get paired against control where you have time to find 2 lands

I agree with you first two points. However, Needle deals with Explosives better than chalice does. Not only can explosives be played around chalice, like sockmonkey said, but chalice can't deal with explosives that have already hit play. Yes, chalice is free, but is it worth sacrificing the power of needle over it?

Sidenote: In a meta crawling with TES/Belcher, I can see why Chalice would get the SB slot. For the sake of my argument, this is not the case.

[Bovinious]

EE can also get around Chalice for 0 if they pay :1: for it via Wasteland/Factory/Monastery or whatever, so even then Needle seems like the better call to me.

[TheMightyQuinn]

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.

On another note, is Brainstorm/Careful Study even needed? I've been doing fine in testing with just 4 Breathrough, 3 Deep Anal, and 4 Coliseum. I cut the other draw in favor of a 4th Thug, among other things.

[BreathWeapon]

Yeah, thats what I was getting at.

On another note, is Brainstorm/Careful Study even needed? I've been doing fine in testing with just 4 Breathrough, 3 Deep Anal, and 4 Coliseum. I cut the other draw in favor of a 4th Thug, among other things.

I believe so, once Deep Analysis is reduced to 1x and Careful Study is added, the deck is more consistent. The deck functions with ?x Deep Analysis and 0x Careful Study, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for structural improvements.

[spirit of the wretch]

EE can also get around Chalice for 0 if they pay :1: for it via Wasteland/Factory/Monastery or whatever, so even then Needle seems like the better call to me.

The good thing abut Chalice is, that you drop it on your first turn and it stop both: Crypt and Explosives. No matter what they boarded you dealt with both of them.
The bad thing is, that it's fucking useless against Belcher compared to a Needle (this is why I will probably will swith back to the Needles).

[Willoe]

It would be super secret tech to show up with a magnivore, fueled by deep analysis and breakthrough and maybe careful study dealing a whopping approx. 8 damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seriously, am I right when I'm saying that nonland, non super broken yard effects (and that broken isn't goyf broken) should be in this deck. WTF is people suggesting mortivore and goyf? Mortivore might be good if it had haste, but it hasn't. And even if it had, it would definitely not belong in this deck. Goyf doesn't belong in every deck! Dread Returning a goyf would be the far most worst play. The deck's nearly perfect as it is right now, whichever little twists on it that occurs. If my meta wans't packing leylines and crypts n SB and some even in MB, I would play it, that's for sure.

[Bovinious]

I believe so, once Deep Analysis is reduced to 1x and Careful Study is added, the deck is more consistent. The deck functions with ?x Deep Analysis and 0x Careful Study, but that doesn't mean that there isn't room for structural improvements.

Ive respected what you had to say earlier about Careful Study and how its clearly better than Brainstorm and all, but seriously NO ONE else is cutting DA down to 1 or whatever you say, having 1 is terrible because if you cant count on hitting it when you have UU or UUU floating so theres really no point of it at all. You are right though the deck does not need Careful Study or for that matter DA, but the deck does function a lot better with DA and probably from extra draw spells in the form of Careful Study, as well.


The good thing abut Chalice is, that you drop it on your first turn and it stop both: Crypt and Explosives. No matter what they boarded you dealt with both of them.
The bad thing is, that it's fucking useless against Belcher compared to a Needle (this is why I will probably will swith back to the Needles).

Why do people always say stuff like this? Your first turn is NOT fast enough, you WILL be on the draw, so Chalice is not an answer if they draw either of those...having to just pack it in game 2 is awful when you could just play Needle, name Crypt or EE, and play around the second of those 2 IF they even drew it...

[spirit of the wretch]

Why do people always say stuff like this? Your first turn is NOT fast enough, you WILL be on the draw, so Chalice is not an answer if they draw either of those...having to just pack it in game 2 is awful when you could just play Needle, name Crypt or EE, and play around the second of those 2 IF they even drew it...

Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.

[BreathWeapon]

Ive respected what you had to say earlier about Careful Study and how its clearly better than Brainstorm and all, but seriously NO ONE else is cutting DA down to 1 or whatever you say, having 1 is terrible because if you cant count on hitting it when you have UU or UUU floating so theres really no point of it at all. You are right though the deck does not need Careful Study or for that matter DA, but the deck does function a lot better with DA and probably from extra draw spells in the form of Careful Study, as well.

When I say 1 Deep Analysis I don't necessarily mean only 1, rather start with 1 and then increase the number of them until you're consistently casting the card off of Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED chains with out consistently drawing it as a blank.

Whether or not that number is 1, 2, 3 or 4 isn't the issue, my point is that the deck shouldn't assume that 4 Deep Analysis is the base line and then cut back, but assume 1 Deep Analysis is the base line and then add more.

Even if the correct number is 1, and I'm not saying it is, saying that there's no point to 1 at all is just wrong. On average the deck is going to see 25% of its deck after Careful Study, Lion's Eye Diamond and two dredgers, if 1 Deep Analysis gives the deck a double Time Walk 1 in 4 times, that's significant. If it weren't significant, I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. There's a mathematical solution to the problem, I'm just not certain how to solve it.

Deep Analysis, like Dread Return, is a modular slot, and I'm just arguing perspectives, not absolutes.

[Freshrock]

Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.

How does Chalice stop topdeck solutions better than needle? Needle stops a topdecked crypt as easily as a chalice does.

[Bovinious]

Because Needle stops things they've in their opening hand which Chalice doesn't, but Chalice stops topdecked solutions much better than Needle.
And why not play around the first one they put on the board and prevent all the others. Sounds like a pretty good plan to me. It's much easier to play around a known threat than around a random topdeck.

Needle prevents topdecks also, granted just of the card you named. Why would I want to play around the first Crypt when I can Needle it and not need to worry at all? You may have to worry about top-decked EE but thats really not a big deal, theyll kill ur tokens, next turn youll get more tokens, doesnt seem that bad unless somehow theyre winning that turn, the tradeoff is definately worth it because if your opponent draws Crypt in his opening grip, which some people mull to, your going to feel pretty dumb you have Chalice and not Needle, almost every time.


When I say 1 Deep Analysis I don't necessarily mean only 1, rather start with 1 and then increase the number of them until you're consistently casting the card off of Breakthrough + LED, Careful Study + LED or Cephalid Coliseum + LED chains with out consistently drawing it as a blank.

Whether or not that number is 1, 2, 3 or 4 isn't the issue, my point is that the deck shouldn't assume that 4 Deep Analysis is the base line and then cut back, but assume 1 Deep Analysis is the base line and then add more.

Even if the correct number is 1, and I'm not saying it is, saying that there's no point to 1 at all is just wrong. On average the deck is going to see 25% of its deck after Careful Study, Lion's Eye Diamond and two dredgers, if 1 Deep Analysis gives the deck a double Time Walk 1 in 4 times, that's significant. If it weren't significant, I wouldn't have bothered with it at all. There's a mathematical solution to the problem, I'm just not certain how to solve it.

Deep Analysis, like Dread Return, is a modular slot, and I'm just arguing perspectives, not absolutes.

Fair enough, however I still think the minimum number of DAs to run is 3, POSSIBLY 2, but I see what you were going for with adding rather than subtracting.

[smoky squirrel]

@Spirit of the Wretch

You did not play Cephalid Sage in your list. Why is that? Did you ever miss it?

[spirit of the wretch]

The Sage always feels a little bit like "win more" to me and I wanted to improve the consitancy of the deck (by playing BS). This came at the cost of explosivness, of course. And as the DR package gets boarded out almost every single game, I decided to cut it down to the absolute minimum.
I missed the Sage when facing Belcher. Combo is the only matchup where he really shines. In every other MU you're usually able to kill fast enough without him, but that one turn you might get from reanimating him against combo.decs is crucial. I do however like Gamble/BS a lot better in this slot, as it is simply good against every deck.

@Bovinious:
Especially against Grow I like to have the option of slow-dredging. You can play around a Crypt quite ok this way. The problem with slow-dredging is, that it's ..., well ... slow. So you might suffer some serious Goyf (aka Mr 6/7 second turn in this MU) beatings. A topdecked EE (to remove your blockers) can mean GG.
As I mentioned the only real advantage I see is that Needle can shut down Belcher (an issue in my metagame), which Chalice can't.

[Bovinious]

@Bovinious:
Especially against Grow I like to have the option of slow-dredging. You can play around a Crypt quite ok this way. The problem with slow-dredging is, that it's ..., well ... slow. So you might suffer some serious Goyf (aka Mr 6/7 second turn in this MU) beatings. A topdecked EE (to remove your blockers) can mean GG.
As I mentioned the only real advantage I see is that Needle can shut down Belcher (an issue in my metagame), which Chalice can't.

How is Needle or Crypt relevent to slow-dredging? You can do that either way but possibly wouldnt have to on the draw if you have Needle, while you would need to with Chalice. Topdecked EE will very rarely lose you the game unless your in some serious trouble otherwise, that statement is almost laughable to me. All EE does is kill your zombies which you will get back next turn, its basically either a Fog or a Turnabout. Id be much more worried about Deeds which can kill their creatures too removing your Bridges so you cant make a new army next turn, and only Needle stops Deed. Chalice is probably better in a meta infested with Belcher/Storm combo because stopping LED/Mox/Petal is probably better than just stopping a Belcher they may not even have, but again your Chalice may never even get to hit the table game 2...I still havnt seen a compelling argument to run Chalice over Needle unless your meta is packed with fast combo, yet some people run Chalice even when there is not much combo, and I dont see why.

[Ataxrxes]

some people run Chalice even when there is not much combo, and I dont see why.
Because Chalice= $5.00 and Needle= $15.00? I know that's why I bought a playset of Chalice first anyway. I would actually prefer the Needles but I can't afford them and I have no way to trade for them where I am. The last time I went to a tournament nobody had any for trade either.

[Bovinious]

Because Chalice= $5.00 and Needle= $15.00? I know that's why I bought a playset of Chalice first anyway. I would actually prefer the Needles but I can't afford them and I have no way to trade for them where I am. The last time I went to a tournament nobody had any for trade either.

See I think that is a good answer, Id much rather someone play something slightly worse for monetary reasons and admit it than have people just claim the cheaper card is better to justify their decision. I guess to an extent this deck is a budget deck because the only expensive thing MD is the LEDs, so I can see people not wanting to pay for Needles, but like you said Needle is usually still better if you can afford it.

[BreathWeapon]

Combo aside, one of the reasons I run Chalice of the Void instead of Pithing Needle in the SB is that I don't plan on SBing game 2. If the opponent resolves Tormod's Crypt, then the deck can play thru' it, if the opponent doesn't have Tormod's Crypt, then the deck can operate at full speed with out having removed threats for answers, answers that may or may not be the correct answers depending on the opponent's SB. Game 3, Chalice of the Void is superior to Pithing Needle because Chalice of the Void is free, the opponent has revealed Tormod's Crypt is in his deck and it also prevents Engineered Explosives from clearing Zombie Tokens as an added bonus.

Ichorid is a tempo deck, so being able to do things for free is significant. I don't think Chalice of the Void is better than Pithing Needle or Pithing Needle is better than Chalice of the Void, it's just a question of how you approach your match ups and SBing. I figure game 1 is in the bag, and game 2 is a crap shoot, so game 3 needs to have the most efficient answers, ergo Chalice of the Void instead of Pithing Needle.

[dlevsApiJ]

I played Ichorid at the Belgian Champs, and I was 13th (129 players).
I played this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return (what should I cut for the 3rd?)
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void (because I have no Peedles)

There was a Problem with the Sage, the guy I bought it from send me the wrong Cephalid, so I played 1 Careful Study more.. (normally I play 2).

This were my matchups:
* 2-0 Some stupid Casual deck :rolleyes:
* 2-1 TES
Lose game 1 because of a turn 1 winn, turn 2 board in CotV, mulled to 5 with a CotV and later a Therapy was enough, then boarded in Leylines, so I hoped I could slow him down (for his Rite of Flame, Cabal Ritual and IGG) and then Cotv/Therapy. In my opening hand were 2 Leylines and 2 Cotv, and later some Therapy-flashbacks. I'm so lucky :cool:
* 2-1 Grow with black (boarded in Vapors cause I expected he should board in Leylines, but he boarded in Crypts, so there is the loss from, the first Crypt -> Vapor -> Therapy, but there came a second out of his Confidant
* 0-2 DragonStompy (i played against this deck before the tournament, and I lways lose to it, also other Ichorid players Imet at the tournament lose of it. The first time i saw it i thought it was a good matchup, do I play wrong against this deck? Or slows turn 1 Trini/Chalice/Moon (they always play them if I would play a Cephalid land) you to much down, with there fast kill..
* 2-0 Aluren
* 1-2 Elves (very strange, i won game 1. Game 2 he mulled to 5, I kept a hand with 3 Therapys, a land and some dredgers, I thought if I Therapy myself for dredgers and Therapy him 2 times for creature I will win. But he was still to fast (when I look back on it, I dont know why I kept this hand :S..), and game 3 I mulled to 5, and his Crypt was to much..)
* 2-0 The mirror :D, always nice to win the mirror with 2-0... Game 2 was pretty cool, we both knew we boarded in Leylines, so i asked him how many Leylines he had,, we both had 2 Leylines, but end of his turn I went Vapor, he kopied him, but I was faster, because i could begin one turn faster (I already had a PImp on the table).

I'm very happy with the build, i didnt missed the Sage, but that was luck.. Also the Cotv's are very good I think, normally 1 Crypt shouldnt be very problematic, you dont have a land always (or dont want to use it), it give you a change VS combo, and if it comes to late, you always have a Game 3. So I keep them instead of Peedles.

Is there someone how you can play the best against DragonStompy? Cause I think this shouldnt be a very hard matchup.

Mvg

ps. sorry of my bad english..

[thejack]

Congratulations on your results. I've seen you play in the tournament and had been wondering were the Sage was:tongue: . You did much better than the guy using my Ichorid in the tournament. I'm really glad you did this good because people underestimate the deck in the benelux.
I believe beating dragon stompy game 1 should be rather easy, they can't really beat recurring Ichorids that bring tokens to the game. If they have a clock under 5 turns you should win this. Or just combo win is they don't have trinisphere.
Game 2 will be a lot harder due to crypts en probably pyroclasms. Go for the combo win if they don't drop the trinisphere otherwise just hope for the best.
Game 3 side in your chalice en drop it turn 1 on 0. Just play trough the pyroclasm.
It won't be easy but I believe it won't be that hard either.

[myselves]

Congratulations on your results.
#

Against DS it's a big difference between the Matchup pre- and postboard, preboard it shouldn't be a problem, but postboard you have to play through 3sphere, Keg, Crypts, and he know what you are playing, so he will try to put you under pressure.
So preboard it's nearly autowin, postboard close to an autoloss.

[Brehn]

I've tested the Dragon Stompy matchup heavily and it's bad, even preboard. You definitely need an explosive hand and be lucky that he doesn't play a turn 1 Trinisphere / Chalice set on the right value to slow you down significantly. There's no such thing as slowrolling when you're facing a turn 2 Arc-Slogger followed up by Jitte. And, believe it or not, Magus of the Moon can screw the hell out of you. If you want to win vs DS:
1) Keep a hand that can win undisruptedly on turn 3.
2) Hope for mulligans of your opp.
3) Play Cephalid Sage.

[dlevsApiJ]

Ok, I gonna test that matchup many times this week :).

And what do you guys think of this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [US] Gamble

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void

There's one slot, should I play one more Gamble, one more DReturn, or 1 more PImp?

Mvg

[Dr.Kokusho]

Hello everyone !!! I just had an idea which could be useful for the decks development ( then again maybe it isnt)

How about we take out the pithing needles in the board and replace them with 4 mystical tutors. I like them because they enable us to effectively have more copies of chain of vapor in the deck without severely diluting the combo since they can also fetch draw spells and discard enablers. Also the vapors can effectively do what pithing can plus a lone echoing truth can handle multiple crypts or leylines on the board.

I also feel that it is now time to start hating other decks back!!! We have access to 5colors allowing us to cast all of the most powerful 1cc hosers in the game. Unfortunately I do not know what those are but maybe more card savvy members can find them. They do not have to be in multiples since gamble or mystical tutor can be used to fetch them or can be combo pieces themselves if laying down hate is unnecessary.

Finally I advocate the use of extra rainbow lands in the sb since hate will effectively slow the deck down and extra lands help it survive better in the long game.

[ClearSkies]

Hello everyone !!! I just had an idea which could be useful for the decks development ( then again maybe it isnt)

How about we take out the pithing needles in the board and replace them with 4 mystical tutors. I like them because they enable us to effectively have more copies of chain of vapor in the deck without severely diluting the combo since they can also fetch draw spells and discard enablers. Also the vapors can effectively do what pithing can plus a lone echoing truth can handle multiple crypts or leylines on the board.

Since gamble was bad, why even play with Mystical Tutors?
Pithing Needle in play solves Tormod Crypt problems as long as it stays in play. Mystical Tutor does not. Chain of Vapors only forces them to use it or stall it for a turn.



I also feel that it is now time to start hating other decks back!!! We have access to 5colors allowing us to cast all of the most powerful 1cc hosers in the game. Unfortunately I do not know what those are but maybe more card savvy members can find them. They do not have to be in multiples since gamble or mystical tutor can be used to fetch them or can be combo pieces themselves if laying down hate is unnecessary.

Like Pithing Needle? That is one mana and is a really powerful hoser against certain kinds of stuff. (Crypt, Deed)



Finally I advocate the use of extra rainbow lands in the sb since hate will effectively slow the deck down and extra lands help it survive better in the long game.

However, this is a combo deck. When given the opportunity, it wants to try to win as fast as possible right? Not to mention that when you start dredging, it is hard to dig up some lands.

[Dr.Kokusho]

Maybe its best that before I suggest card additions to the deck that I first share my views on the ichorid deck as a whole so that the framework of reasoning behind my card choices can be better understood or that corrections can be made to the misconceptions that other people and I have about the deck.

Legacy Ichorid Combo - A deck that aims to win by filling the graveyard with cards and abusing massive card advantage provided by cards that function in the graveyard to achieve victory.

I would like to define a term which I would be using frequently which we'll call "going off". This means successfully resolving a draw 3 or 4 spell that would enable a chain of undisrupted dredges that result in a lot of cards in the graveyard.

When you "go off" successfully the opponent usually dies due to hasted zombies or they will just lose since they will often experience a combination of multiple zombie tokens, a reanimated fatty, multiple discards, and reccuring ichorids that produce more zombies which would overwhelm most decks' resources to fight back.

With this in mind my mindset when playing the deck is to "go off" as fast as possible. In my experience once you go off you generally win, barring misplays (not using cabal therapies to get rid of opponents answers) or lucky topdecks (such as a topdecked solitary confinement)

Other combo decks also apply this strategy since they "go off" in their own ways to win the game but there are many advantages to the ichorid combo that other combo decks do not.

1. It regularly goes off on turn 1 and 2 allowing us to bypass intaractions forced by many decks. This means the combo can only be disrupted in turn 1 by FOW. Turn 2 is more disruptable since it is vulnerable to daze, trini, COtV, Wasteland Etc, but if the opponents do not have them they lose. If they do you do still have a chance to "go off".

2. Ichorid requires 4 pieces to go off, namely a draw spell, a mana source, a discard outlet and a dredger. Fortunately many of the pieces fulfill multiple roles (such as colliseum being both an outlet, a mana source and a draw; careful being a draw or outlet; and LED which is an outlet and a mana source) leading to less mulligans and less reliance on tutors to find pieces.

3. Ichorid has a very good aggro back up plan against counter based control if ever they prevent us from "going off" which comes in the form of ichorid, Pimp and zombie token beatdown.

Because of these reasons it is very likely that the ichorid player will win game 1

Now assuming we win game 1, we come to the much more difficult game 2. Here we lose the advantage of non-interactivity since the the opponent gets to play first and more importantly starts boarding in graveyard hate. Due to this the ichorid deck's plan changes a bit. Though the plan is still to "win as fast as possible" , it is more accurately described as " get rid of hate then go-off" which is a lot more difficult to do.

This is because when graveyard hate hits play, we essentially need to have 5 things in our hand to "go off" and these are a mana source, a dredger, a draw spell, a discard outlet , and the anti-hate we board in. Also unlike the other pieces which can serve multiple purposes, anti-hate only functons as anti-hate which does not help us "go off" when there is no graveyard hate in play.

Now assuming that we draw those 5 on the opening 8 cards then all is well and good but more often than not one or two pieces are missing and therefore the deck will have to draw a few more cards before effectively "going off" which often leads to longer games and a much more dificult fight.

This is why I thought of using mystical tutors in game 2 since they can function as anti-hate, draw or discard outlet depending on what you tutor for. Using tutors also allows us to board out spells that are dead with graveyard hate in play such as 2 breakthroughs while not diluting the dredge engine since the tutors can get echoing truth, chain of vapor or they can act as breakthroughs 3-6 though it may be delayed by a turn. Gamble also plays this role as well and in fact sometimes it is better since it can get any of the pieces required to "go off" and puts it in the hand instead of going to the top of the library. However gamble is indeed a gamble due to the random discard. For people who want consistency over power, mystical tutor is a better choice.

Some might say that bouncing a crypt is a temporary solution and I find that this is not so. The bounce usually happens at the end of the turn before going off. Now assuming the crypt is bounced and you "go off" the next turn then the crypt will no longer be a threat since it would be cabal therapied. If your opponent did not have resources stopping the vapor and you"going off" then it is extremely likely he has no way to stop you from making him discard the crypts allowing you to use the graveyard resources without fear (barring a topdecked crypt of course). There are exceptions of course where needle is much better such as multiple tormods in play but I give more likely siutations higher consideration than the exceptional ones.

I also think it would be best not to side in pithings game 2 unless fighting combo since I am unsure if my opponent will side in leylines or the crypt. Id rather have the more versatile chain since it can be tutored and it can handle both types of hate. You might say that I can needle many other useful things apart from crypt such as wasteland, etc. but my playstyle would rather maximize my chances of "going off" rather than disrupting the opponents strategy . Game 3 is a different story since the hate has been identified and I have a better idea of what to pithing since I have been beaten and I know what cards apart from crypt that need to be shut down since they caused my defeat.

In some game 3s i bring the anti-hate back out and just hope fora turn 1 undisruptable kill on the play. This strategy can pay off in non-leyline using decks or if you are tired and do not want to play a long complicated game.

My final and most controversial opinion for others is the addition of rainbowlands or non-land mana producing spells such as lotus petals and chrome moxen in the sb. Now in my experience with the deck, game 3 usually becomes a mulligan fest for the opposing deck. If they won game 2 then it was probably due to the presence of hate. That is why they will often mulligan to hate even if the rest of his cards are crap such as a sui black player mulliganning to leyline and 2 wastelands with many black creatures or a goblin deck mulliganing to leyline with rishadan and aether vial with no mountains. So generally the opponent would rather keep disruptive and slow hand rather than try to win quickly resulting for a much longer game.

Now for ichorid to "go off" successfully it needs to use at least 3 mana. 1 mana to remove the hate, 1 mana to discard and 1 mana to draw. I often find myself mulliganing to 1 landers and I can get the hate of the table, but then my only land gets wasted away preventing me from casting spells until I topdeck another land. I know I can still play slow dredge but it is a strategy that has never won for me; therefore I am not in favor of it. Addition of non wastelandable sources of mana such as the petals or chrome moxen or additional lands can help in ensuring access to at least 1 mana the whole game and could have netted me victories in some of my game 3 losses.

This is all opinion though and criticisms and alternate reasonings would be most welcome.

[Lemuria]

@Kokusho


Your list runs 59 cards. You may add a Putrid Imp in that remaining slot since he is so retarded.

[dlevsApiJ]

I think that was to me, instead then to Kokusho..

And it was my question which card i should play in the last slot :). Yeah, the 4th PImp looks best :).

Mvg

[dlevsApiJ]

I'm thinking to make this changes to my latest list:

Main:
+ 1 Gamble (instead of 1 PImp more)

Side:
+ 1 Echoing Truth (a reason for the 3th Gamble)
- 1 Ray of Revelation (1 is enough)

So you have 5 bounce spells, and 3 searches for them.. The truth is good for multiple Leylines/Crypts (sometimes I board in Bounce, cause I think they board in Leylines, but then I see Crypt´s.. when I dont know what they should board in, I board in the Bounce,, Bounce against Crypts is better then CotV against Leyline :P, and when you can combo the same turn ore can use a Therapy its not a problem any more..) but I gonna test if its good enough (cause it cost 2 mana!)

Mvg

[slobad23]

Is there any reason that mental note isn't used in this deck? I mean, it puts 2 cards from the library into the graveyard and then you draw/dredge.

Has it been excluded because you can't be sure you will be throwing away a dredge card?

[Bovinious]

Mental Note would be worse than Careful Study, Tireless Tribe, Street Wraith, Brainstorm, and a few other cards prolly. The card is just unreliable and weak in this deck and awful in general.

[myselves]

Maybe I'll take part in the next tournament with Ichorid, I'm not sure to choose Icho for this tournament, cause most of the players expect Grow, Landstill :smile: and Belcher:frown: .

My current list:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 LED
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 DA
3 Dread Return

4 Bridge from below

4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
2 Cephalid Sage
1 FKZ/Homura, Human Ascendant

At the moment I'm not sure to play FKZ and not Homura, because Homura enable Ichorid to beat for 5, and turns the token to flying Werebears.
So my thought is, that Homura put me in a position to rape some random aggrodecks.

[Bovinious]

Homura doesnt really help you win the same turn you return him, which is the whole point of FKZ. We could just wait a turn with a bunch of 2/2s and Ichorids to win the next turn w/0 FKZ, so why is winning more the next turn better than usually winning a turn earlier?

[myselves]

Homura doesnt really help you win the same turn you return him, which is the whole point of FKZ. We could just wait a turn with a bunch of 2/2s and Ichorids to win the next turn w/0 FKZ, so why is winning more the next turn better than usually winning a turn earlier?

I know, but Homura coul be sacced for Therapy or another Return, (and flying Trolls have Style³). I actually don't know if Homura or FKZ is better, FKZ enables the 1stturnkill, but the MU against Fastcombo is worse with FKZ or Homura, against Grow, Landstill and so on it doesn't matter if you play Homura or FKZ.
I'll test again the next days.

[dlevsApiJ]

I went to a tourney with 60+ man, and I went 9th (It was withhout Top 8, before the last round, I stand 5-1-0, I made the last game, we both had wonn 1 game, same play mistakes, very stupid mistakes, else i was 2nd! (I hate myself :P).

But what I wanted to know, sometimes, when they have Crypt, and they have draw/confidant, I see boarding in Chain (on the draw) or CotV (on the play) isnt enough.. I also play 1 Grudge, so I board him in too.. so what are the best card to board out? For 4 cards you board out Sage, FKZ and 2 Dread Return, but after that, what is good to board out? At the most I will board in 9 cards (4 Chain, 4 CotV, 1 Grudge), sometimes 8 (4 Chain, 4 CotV), sometimes 5 (4 Chain/4 CotV, 1 Grudge). So what do you guys think to board out after "the combo cards"?

Mvg

[Bovinious]

You just water down your engine a bit, I SB out 1 Golgari Thug (3 MD), Putrid Imp, Ichorid, DA, Breakthrough, in that order, also depending on the matchup.

[dlevsApiJ]

Ok, so just take out some "random" cards.
And when do you board in more cards then you do other times? Cause you dont want to board in To much, then your deck becomes slower..
Sometimes I have not enough answers, and sometimes I have to many..

MVG

[JDunkin00]

I think that was to me, instead then to Kokusho..

And it was my question which card i should play in the last slot :). Yeah, the 4th PImp looks best :).

Mvg

Definately 4 PImp! He is very crucial to keep dredgers out of hand. He also beats with evasion where other discard outlets do not. Also for one mana hoser cards try my favorite card Stifle. It stops most of the sweepers (deed, keg, explosives) and saves you from crypt. This single card hoses most of the hose cards people bring in, it just doesn't stop Leyline (Blue or Black). Yes I went there. Blue leyline slows this deck tremendously by stopping multiple ichorids and zombies from being in play.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I am officially tired off my current decks and wish to hop on the Ichorid train finally. I have only played against Ichorid a few times, and never piloted one. From reading the thread a bit, I am getting a general idea of the ins and outs of the deck. However, I was wondering if there was a more extensive primer lying around somewhere. The opening post doesn't go too far in depth. My apologies if it is in an easy to find location.

Edit: You know what, posters already did an awesome job explaining how this deck works... I just had to read the ENTIRE thread and not just a few pages. Excuse me and my silly laziness. Great job guys and I really enjoyed reading this. Onward to happy zombie land!

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Sorry for the double post. I was wondering what the state of the deck is in the current meta. It doesn't seem to be getting that much respect now. Its all about TES and Breakast. Is Ichorid a dying breed? Or is it just waiting for the right pilot.

[Ch@os]

Thats exactly what this Deck need, no attention not too much SB hate and a good player.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Thats exactly what this Deck need, no attention not too much SB hate and a good player.

Ha ha ha, I guess we should get this on the down low. Although a major problem is that the hate for this deck is also the hate for Breakfast and Threshold. GY hate is going to be played regardless.

[Maagler]

I just placed 5-8 at the Mass Hadley tournament with this list:

4x Ichorid
4x cabal therapy
4x breakthrough
2x gamble
4x golgari grave troll
3x deep analysis
1x cephalid sage
4x lion's eye diamond
2x dread return
4x putrid imp
1x flame kin zealot
1x cephalid sage
4x bridge from bellow
4x stinkweed inp
4x narcomoeba
4x gemstone mine
4x city of brass
2x golgari thug
4x cephalid coliseum

side:
4x leyline of he void
2x ray of revelation
2x ancient grudge
3x chain of vapor
4x chalice of the void

there was a good turnout of 36 people. I also placed fifth with a similar list at the first Wareham Tourney (25 people):

3x Ichorid
3x cabal therapy
4x breakthrough
2x gamble
4x golgari grave troll
3x deep analysis
1x cephalid sage
4x lion's eye diamond
3x dread return
4x putrid imp
1x flame kin zealot
2x cephalid sage
2x golgari thug
4x bridge from bellow
4x stinkweed inp
4x narcomoeba
4x gemstone mine
4x city of brass
4x cephalid coliseum

side:
4x leyline of he void
2x ray of revelation
2x ancient grudge
3x chain of vapor
4x chalice of the void

It seems I always make it into top 8 only to scrub out and loose. I am always happy to see the thresh match up, and I saw a lot of it yesterday. I also like the first list better as I never recurred a sage in all the matches that I played, and I always sided it out for anti hate cards.

Playing against thresh I would usually side like this:
-1 ichorid
-1 sage
-1 zealot
-1 lion's eye diamond
-1 deep analysis
-2 gamble
-1 golgari thug
-1 cabal therapy

+4 chalice of the void
+3 chain of vapor
+2 Ancient grudge

It seemed to work but I am wondering if anyone has any other suggestions.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

How did City of Traitors work out for you? Don't you need to ensure more sources of colored mana in the build? It makes casting things like PImp and gamble less consistent I would think. I don't see the acceleration traitors gives you as relevant, but I have been only playing this deck for a day and you Top 8'ed...

[xsockmonkeyx]

How did City of Traitors work out for you?

He meant City of Brass. At least I hope he did.

[edgewalker]

How did City of Traitors work out for you? Don't you need to ensure more sources of colored mana in the build? It makes casting things like PImp and gamble less consistent I would think. I don't see the acceleration traitors gives you as relevant, but I have been only playing this deck for a day and you Top 8'ed...

I'm hoping he meant City of Brass

[Maagler]

sorry thats what i meant (city of brass) fixed.

[Jaynel]

You have Cephalid Sage listed twice in both of those lists, what's up?

[Rood]

I would just like to say, congrats Maagler on making the Top 8 once again, it really sucked we had to get matched up first round I was hoping we could play in the final match

[Brehn]

(lists)

- Both lists are only 58 cards, and there is a serious lack of Golgari Thug. I'll just assume you're playing 10 dredgers. :]
- How did Gamble turn out for you? Have you had the problem of a Coliseum+Gamble-hand?
- Also, both sideboards contain 16 cards.



I also like the first list better as I never recurred a sage in all the matches that I played, and I always sided it out for anti hate cards.

- I've found Cephalid Sage to be incredibly useful vs any kind of Aggro and Combo. What matchups did you see? Are the Hadley and Wareham metas dominated by Threshold and Landstill, where Sage doesn't shine at all?
- I also like the first list better. How can you justify running only 3 Ichorids? If you want to run multiple Sages, cut the Gambles. Sage is run to make Ichorid 2 turns faster (improve Aggro/Combo), Gamble is run to combat hate and to increase your chances to draw a keepable hand (improve Control/Board Control). Those two seem sort of counter-intuitive, especially if you're cutting essential cards like Ichorid and Therapy to run both.



Playing against thresh I would usually side like this:
-1 ichorid
-1 sage
-1 zealot
-1 lion's eye diamond
-1 deep analysis
-2 gamble
-1 golgari thug
-1 cabal therapy

+4 chalice of the void
+3 chain of vapor
+2 Ancient grudge

It seemed to work but I am wondering if anyone has any other suggestions.
- Siding out Ichorid seems sooooo wrong. In conjunction with bridges, Ichorid is the main reason you win against Threshold. Also, your second lists only plays 3 of them, did you also side one out playing that one?
- Looks like you faced a lot of non-white-Threshold. Dread Return with Golgari Grave-Troll as your only reasonable target seems pretty meh otherwise. Did you steal some games vs UGr/UGb doing this? I've never tested this strategy, mainly because the white version is way more popular here, but isn't cutting a Therapy counter-intuitive? If I want to reanimate a Troll, I'd like to know first if my opponent is holding a FoW.
- Gamble should be much more useful postboard, being able to grab the hate you need. On the play, you'd have 6 Chalices in your deck. However, you're siding it out.
- I don't know how much hate you're expecting, but siding 9 cards might be overkill.

With my current build (your first list -2 Gamble -1 Deep Anal +1 Thug +2 Careful Study) and this sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Gamble (try it! you want it postboard, but you don't need it preboard)
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
my boarding strategy against non-black Threshold is:
-1 Golgari Thug
-2 Dread Return
-1 Cephalid Sage
-1 Flame-Kin Zealot
-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Careful Study
+3 Gamble
+3 Chalice of the Void
+1 Ancient Grudge

and against Threshold with black, an additional:
-1 Careful Study
-1 Breakthrough/Cabal Therapy/Lion's Eye Diamond (haven't figured that one out yet)
+2 Chain of Vapor

So, while you're siding out Gamble, I'm siding it in. It still needs testing though, and I'll definitely consider leaving Returns in against UGr.

[dlevsApiJ]

I just cutted the Gambles, they doesnt look good enough to me..
My "new" list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
1 [FS] Dakmor Salvage*

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [TO] Deep Analysis **
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond


// Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Chalice of the Void

* I like him. When you start with land -> breakthrough, you can dredge him to dredge 1 turn only 2 instead of 4-6, but then 1 turn later (comes into play tapped), of you have a DA (and I play 4 (maybe wanna go to 3)), you dredge for 8-12 more!
** Maybe wanna cut 1 for a Dread Return,, what should be the best?

Oh, and I like your Darkblast, but when do you need it? It removes your own Bridges,, and the only creature I really wanna kill with it is Yixlid Jailer, but when its in your grave you can´t... Against which creatues do you need it?

[Maagler]

@Brehn:
You are right about the gambles, they should be kept for the hate. I played a lot of UGw thresh, and their main form of hate included EE. I also lost to Roodmistah in finals who had a hard hitting tormods crypt.

Thanks for the suggestions on the side. Could i get your deck list?

fixed the card numbers in the deck :tongue:
(-1 chain of vapor, +2 golgari thug)

[Brehn]

List:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
3 Careful Study
====
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Gamble
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast

After getting beaten by Iggy Pop, Dragon Stompy, Mono-red Goblins and janky Poison Sliver Aggro with no graveyard hate involved, I've decided to play anything explosive this deck can offer, which includes Cephalid Sage and Careful Study. The Gambles in the sideboard are not thoroughly tested yet, but it seems quite logical to me. Also, note the Tarnished Citadel for more consistent Gambles. The following slots are debatable:

main:
1 Careful Study
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
might be replaced totally or partially with any combination of
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Golgari Thug
1 Dread Return

sb:
1 Darkblast
1 Gamble
might be replaced totally or partially with any combination of
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Simic Sky Swallower (if you want a reanimator target that just wins the game if it hits, I think this is the way to go)

[Muradin]

After getting beaten by Iggy Pop, Dragon Stompy, Mono-red Goblins and janky Poison Sliver Aggro with no graveyard hate involved...



This is really strange. I've been playing Ichorid in several tournaments during the last few months and did quite well with it. Nevertheless the few loss I had were against nearly the same decks you named here. I lost to Affinity with 4 crypts main, Iggy Pop(Leyline), Dragon Stompy and a 5 color Slivers Fundeck tuned a bit for tournament play( had my Breakthrough countered with Force of Will removing Sliver Queen, then proceeded to love against "Darkheart Sliver".)

In general I think that Careful Study is preboard in most situations superior to Gamble. There should be room for 2-4 of them in the maindeck as they really smooth out your drws by digging for lands, discarding dredgers and well, drawing cards. In general my list is Brehn's list -1 Cephalid Sage + 1 Deep Analysis. My Board is also different, but thats just personal preference.

[Maagler]

I have also considered Simic Sky Swallower as a side slot. I will try out your list thank you for posting it.

I have found that the games against dragon stompy are almost always an auto loss, especially when they know what you are playing. The only way that you can beat them under a trinisphere is with ichorid. but they can usually deal with them with a needle.

[Brehn]

FYI: Needle on Ichorid doesn't work. Needle stops activated abilites, Ichorid has a triggered ability. I've made a post about the Dragon Stompy matchup on page 40.

[Lukas Preuss]

It is quite possible that those losses you guys talk about have more to do with wrong plays/wrong mulligan descisions than with your decklists, your cardchoices or the matchups.

You simply should not lose to Dragon Stompy, Sliver, IGGy Pop, whatever preboard. I have played Ichorid again at the last monthly Iserlohn tournament, and my only losses were the mirror (drew shitty and he didn't... that was basically what descided the match) and a black deck packing 4 Leyline, 4 Extirpate, and Jotun Grunt in the SB... and he always drew multiple pieces of disruption in games 2 and 3... otherwise I would have won. Sadly, I missed T8 because of my shitty tiebreakers after that loss.

My point is, that this deck is still one of the strongest decks around. During my third or forth round I played against Andre Müller (?), who is a big German pro in Extended or something, and won through Leyline and Extirpate. During round six I won through Yxlid Jailer, Extirpates, and Engineered Explosives.

Oh, and Yxlid Jailer has been becoming a very big issue over here... nearly all the aggro Control decks are nowadays black based (UGb Threshold, Baseruption, Fish, whatever), and their hate card of choice is Yxlid Jailer. For that reason my board now contains 3 Contagion to take care of them. I usually board 3 Chain of Vapor, 3 Contagion against any black based aggro control deck. Contagion was awesome all day in Iserlohn, and I am sure it will prove itself again in the future.


Edit: Oh, and since you talk about it: One of my other wins was against Dragon Stompy... Game 1 you crush them, game two they might have Crypt before you win (although sometimes they have trouble casting it through their own Trinispheres), but game three you Therapy them for Crypt (and hit two, just as I did yesterday) and win from there on. Trinisphere is almost never a problem... just keep Ichorids and zombie tokens coming.

[Daze]

Games against Dragon Stompy seem to depend heavily on draw and dice. If they get down their hate before you get into dredging, you're usually screwed. Trinisphere and Magus of the Moon both shut you down, and you won't have enough time to slow-dredge them. Thus, you need a fast hand (no discard to maximum handsize in oder to discard) and from my limited experience, Therapy for Dragon has been great. Dragon (and Jitte) are the only big threats they have, everything else can be handled with the Bridge-tokens. But Pit-Dragon gives them a real fast clock and your only blockers are the Narcs. "Tomb, Mox, Mox, Pit Dragon, go. Untap, draw, Mountain, Seething Song, Swing for 20."

[spirit of the wretch]

Jep, if Dragon Stompy gets the nuts draw you're pretty much screwed. But that's a big IF. First turn Chalice/Blood Moon on the play followed by a random thread will almost surely kill you. On the other hand their mana base sucks hardcore, so there's always a chance of radomly winning because they screw/flood.
I played the MU only once and had no problems winning it.

Here's something for you guys to discuss:

I saw some Akroma tech in Extendet Ichorid.decs and it seemed pretty nice (of course, in Extendet you simply can't handle her) and now suggest the following build:

MB:
10 dredger
3 Dread Returns
3 Brainstorm
Zealot

SB:
1 Sage
1 Akroma

I really feel you only need the Sage in the combo MU and therefore I like my mainboard to be as consistent as possible ( => BS > Gamble). Akroma seems like a fine SB card against Goblins/Affinity/random Aggro.
But why not simply reanimate a Zealot and win?
Akroma doesn't need Bridges! Affinity and Goblins easily manage to remove them and Akroma is geat defence and a strong clock against these decks. Plus neither of these decks play StoPs and therefore basically can't handle her.
What do you think?

[thejack]

Am I the only one who prefers to let his opponent start, even pre board? This way you get a quick peek at the opponents mana base. If he opens with plains or forest just go nuts on your first turn if he opens with a blue based fetch or an Island just discard a dredger at end of turn to set you up to be able of dodging counters. The times this can go wrong are limited, T1 win from TES is all I can come up with. Why risk getting some discard outlet countered if you can get one at the end of turn 1 for free.
The hate from dragon stompy is hardly relevant if you choose to play like this. If they drop turn 1 trinisphere, it will slow you down at least 3 turns but whatever, your clock still beats their clock. If they open with a morph creature, just draw and see if you can rape his deck apart.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yeah, thats a very good argument I think, cause it sucks when your Breakthougk becomes countered and they get some 'Time Walks"...

And you draw your first turn a card, so you can start Discarding the first turn..

Is there anyone who has something to say about my last list? I'm not very happy with the 4th main DA and the 2nd Ray (I played 2 because of random enchantments as Moat/Confiment/etc. but never saw them on any tournament, and if you see them, its not more then once, so you can still go T8 :))

I was thinking about including Akroma/Simic Sky Swallower Sb, against fast aggro (with fanatic, goblins/zoo), who has a fast clock, and can kill there own creatures for your bridges. And mainboard, the 3rd Return.


EDIT: Is Leyline really needed side? The only time I boarded it in on tournament is in the Mirror and against Cephalid Breakfast, but in my meta, both are almost not played... And I think something as extra bounce/enchantments destroy/creature destroy (stupid Jailer) (like Contagion) is much better... The Leylines are more "nice cards" to have, against grave-combo decks, and decks with fanatic or something.. But you see much more things as Leyline/Crypt/Jailer,, so I would think about playing more cards against them..
Or am I completely wrong with this?

[dlevsApiJ]

About my idea of cutting Leylines, I'm thinking of playing Darkblast's instead of them, much better than Leylines I think!
I saw many people playing Contagion, but removing a Black card from your hand early in the game isnt very fine most of the time.. And Darkblast is also a Dregde 3! -1/-1 looks good enough against most creatures you hate, like Yixlid Jailer, Mogg Fanatic, Confidant (they find there anti cards faster with him) etc.. Of cource most of the time you dont have Bridges in your grave, because these creatures come turn 1/2, so that isnt even a problem..
Withered Wretch is still a problem, Contagion works against him, so should only he be a reason to run Contagion? Why doesnt Dredge and cost 1 black card..

Mvg

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Darkblast can't answer Jailer unless it's already in your hand. In your graveyard it won't have dredge. Mogg Fanatic's death is its important part against you, so it might not help as you may dredge Bridges while grabbing Darkblast. I wasn't aware the Confidant was a problem against this decks.

[dlevsApiJ]

I never said Confi was a problem. Contagian cant also not answer Jailer when its in your grave, and I never said Darkblast can, maybe the card can be in your (opening)hand? Even as for the Fanatic, they play it, and you can kill it Before dredging with your Darkblast... You kill the fanatic, when you have 0/1 Bridge, before they kill their own when you have more Bridges..

My only question was, should it be better then Contagian ? :smile:

[dlevsApiJ]

List I'm testing:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass
1 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Blazing Archon (against stupid fast aggro decks)
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [US] Gamble
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [AL] Contagion

Mvg

[myselves]

My only question was, should it be better then Contagian ? :smile:
Nothing, You can play Contagion for nothing, and it can kill multiple Jailer, Darkblast can't do this.

Gamble isn't good enough, compared to BS or Careful Study, it can search anything, but you also could discard the solution for Gamble, so in the mid or endgame it's worthless.

On my current list, i went back to play Careful Study, it's useful to find a solution in game 2, in game 1 it allows a more or less crazy action with the LED.

[dlevsApiJ]

Yeah, you can Discard your Solution for Gamble, but with the Gambles you play 6+ solutions of each, so ÿou find it back easier.. It's just that Gamble lets you play more solutions, for more situations.. It finds much easier then Study does (Breakthough is even better sometimes, when you have 2 lands)

And that Contagion is Free is why I play one of them, but removing a black card from hand isnt always possible,, so I also play a Darkblast .

[kicks_422]

Gamble isn't good enough, compared to BS or Careful Study, it can search anything, but you also could discard the solution for Gamble, so in the mid or endgame it's worthless.

If your opponent has the tools to take you to mid/late game, he's basically beaten you already.

[Quoth]

During my third or forth round I played against Andre Müller (?), who is a big German pro in Extended or something, and won through Leyline and Extirpate.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgevent/ptval07/final

You are correct on his name.



Q

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I am sure this had been asked, but why only play one FKZ? Swinging with hasty zombie tokens seems pretty important.

[Bovinious]

Because we play 1-2 Cephalid Sage, which lets us dredge more and find Bridges/Narcs/FKZ, so you really dont need 2. FKZ is only in the deck game 1 most of the time anyways.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Because we play 1-2 Cephalid Sage, which lets us dredge more and find Bridges/Narcs/FKZ, so you really dont need 2. FKZ is only in the deck game 1 most of the time anyways.

Yeah, I noticed he is always one of the first cards to boarded out. I hope this deck stays a keeper for at least another year, because I am getting serious with it and used some of my nicer trades to get the Lion's Eye Diamonds. This seems like the combo deck with the most flavor, and maybe Shadowmoor might add too it. Any thoughts on how this deck stands in the current metagame? TES and other tendril combo decks seem to get more respect now.

[Bovinious]

This deck is a serious contender in the current meta, Ive had great success with it in my local meta ever since Future Sight became legal. This deck can do really well as long as there is not gobs of GY hate, the problem at the moment is not many people play the deck at big events (except for some placings ive seen in Germany), which is a shame. People choose not to play it in fear of hate, but the fact of the matter is you can very often win through hate, and also the hate may not even show up.

[myselves]

If your opponent has the tools to take you to mid/late game, he's basically beaten you already.

*****?
Deadguy?
Deadgoyf?

The success of Ichorid depends on the meta.
Ichorid beats Grow, Landstill and so on, but looses to Fastcombo.
Postboard it can be really hard to play through the hate, or very easy, cause noone exspected Ichorid and played LotV or Jailers. So if a lot of players in your current Meta play Ichorid, playin' Ichorid is a bad choice, or it's the other way around.

[Xero]

Yeah, I noticed he is always one of the first cards to boarded out. I hope this deck stays a keeper for at least another year, because I am getting serious with it and used some of my nicer trades to get the Lion's Eye Diamonds. This seems like the combo deck with the most flavor, and maybe Shadowmoor might add too it. Any thoughts on how this deck stands in the current metagame? TES and other tendril combo decks seem to get more respect now.

Ichorid seems quite good right now. Landstill and Thresh are two of the biggest decks in the format, and you have good match-ups against both. Looking at the other deck in the format:

Goblins: This match-up is very draw dependent, but you should be looking for a quick start. Mogg Fanatic hurts, and they often bring Tormod's Crypt in from the sideboard. I would not take the Dread Returns package out Game 2, since it's much harder to win slowly with Ichorids and zombies against them.

Survival: Very good. They need early disruption to beat you. Game 2 can be hard if they bring in Yixlid Jailer, but other than that, you should win the majority.

Storm Combo: Kind of a coinflip. They usually are a little faster than you though, although this is somewhat balanced by your use of Cabal Therapies. Depends a lot on luck.

Others: Of decks on the rise, Goyf Sligh is a good match-up, Cephalid Breakfeast is average, and Ancient Tomb based decks are crappy. Dragon Stompy is bad enough, but Angel Stax plays Ghostly Prison and Tabernacle effects which will kill you horribly.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Its good to hear Ichorid is a contender and thanks for the great match up analysis Xero. I have been playing around with the deck and the only thing that baffles me is the optimal draw package. Breakthrough at least as a 3 of seems necessary and beyond debate, DA at least 2 of but I feel more comfortable with 3, and after that comes the fuzzy part. For reference, here is my current list...

// Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

// Creatures
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return

What I would like to do is -3 Careful Study, + 1 Break Through, Sage, and Dread Return. Still, I am not sure if that is a good move and if Study is needed or not. Thanks.

Edit: No more 5 breakthrough savage tech :(

[spirit of the wretch]

// Spells
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
3 Deep Analysis
2 Breakthrough


This is some savage tech! I knew we should play more copies of that card :tongue:

You probably mean Dread Return.

In that case NEVER play less than 4 Breakthrough! This card is completely ridiculous! You might want to cut a Study for it.

[Bovinious]

What he said ^^, you NEVER want less than 4 Breakthrough, Careful Study as Breakthrough 5-6 may be alright over Dread Return #3 and Sage #2, but never in place of Breakthrough.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Ha ha ha, ok I guess its time for me to up breakthrough to 4. Thanks for the help. I think I should cut the study and put in the extra sage like suggested. I noticed myself fizzling when a sage in the bin could have put the juice back on.

[lolosoon]

Breakthrough is a house in this deck. 4 Dredge effect for U ? Sign me in !! One of the must have 4-ofs aof the deck.


For now, I do think 57(58) cards are engraved in marble//commonly agreed as the bulk (core ?!) of Ichorid Combo.

// Lands : 12
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

// Creatures : 25
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells : 20(21)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
2(3) Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return

For the remaining slots, options are :
- Dread Return #3
- Cephalid Sage//Flame-Kin Zealot #2
- Extra Dredger (mainly Thug #4 as he's quite > Dakmor Salvage)
- Gamble//Careful Study x2-3
- Lone Fancy Monster as reanimation target (Platinum Angel, Akroma and so on...)
- Extra Ichorid effects (Nether Shadow, Ashen Ghoul)
- Extra lands (Undiscoverd Paradise, Dryad Arbor, Dakmor Salvage...)

The first two options solidifies your combo, which is good. But you often side out the combo core for SB solutions to opponent's hate games #2-3 so it's debatable. It also depends of your style of play I think...

The extra dredger (Thug) is fine cause it helps insuring the extra dredge effects on Breakthrough//Coliseum//DeepA. But the core 11 Dredgers are usually enough for that. Sure, if you're somehow a bit unlucky with'em, hug a thug.

Gamble and Study have not the same purpose. Game One they dig for Combo pieces, after that, they dig for SB cards. Careful Study shines in TopDeck mode when your initial attempt "fizzle" (they removed your initial bridges or you dredged crap and coudln't mill you into an additional dredger//WinCon), but if you're facing a lot of Ichorid hosers Gamble into Siboarded cards could be the best solution.

If you go with the fancy monster, Platinum Angel or Akroma seems better SB choices than MD material.

The remaining choices depend of you, but are probably subpar or maybe metagame choices.

The Manabase can be discussed too, but the Rainbow Lands provide more SB options than the U/B one imho.

As reminder, the other manabase choice is :
// Lands
4 Underground Sea
4 Fetches (Polluted Delta)
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Which opens to SB Tropical Island to fetch and Reverent Silence.

About sideboard, it's tough to find a 100% agreed list but those 15 see lots of play :
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle//Chalice of the Void
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge

Sadly, MorningTide doesn't offer much for this deck. (even for SideBoard)


I know, all those informations are quite redundant with the rest of the thread. Still, I hope it'll help newcomers who don't have the courage to read through the 35 pages getting some useful informations.

Beware the mighty Zombie Tokens !!

[thejack]

Do you play Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void in the same sideboard? Shouldn't Crypt be Chalice of the Void?

[lolosoon]

Do you play Tormod's Crypt and Leyline of the Void in the same sideboard? Shouldn't Crypt be Chalice of the Void?

My bad, I waas thinking of another 0cc artifact : Chalice of the Void, to shut Crypt down, not the crypt itself.

Many thanks for pointing this out. Post Edited.

[Redlotus27]

Are there any lessons that can be learned from all the results in extended that Ichorid is putting up? It seems that much of the explosiveness is exchanged for more consistency. What are everyone thoughts on this matter?

[Bovinious]

Are there any lessons that can be learned from all the results in extended that Ichorid is putting up? It seems that much of the explosiveness is exchanged for more consistency. What are everyone thoughts on this matter?

Well in extended they dont have Lion's Eye Diamond, so they are forced to sacrifice speed for a bit more consistency. I play the Dredge deck in Extended right now and believe it is one of the strongest decks. The only real difference is that in Extended you play Careful Study, and sometimes Tireless Tribe to make up for the loss of LED and Deep Analysis (which isnt easy to cast without LED mana), so unless we want to cut LED, which we dont, I dont know what we could learn from Ext except that Careful Study is a good mini-Breakthrough, which we already know as seen by some people running 1-2.

[Redlotus27]

Has anyone explored using careful study and extra lands in the DA and LED slots? I mean, its less painful to careful study than it is to get fireblasted (-3 life and usually 1 mana burn) from the DA. I guess the discard with LED is the most important part, or is it the 1+ turn boost that it gives making all the difference?

[Bovinious]

LED lets you ship your hand in response to a Breakthrough, ship your hand activate Coliseum, use the UU to hopefully flashback DA, or like you said pop LED, discard DA and flashback, manaburn (isnt optimal but can get there). Basically, LED makes the turn 1 wins possible. I guess if you were in a meta with NO storm combo to race, Tireless Tribe and Careful study may be better to make turn 2 comboing more consistent, but even so this opens you up to other disruption...I dont really recommend this at all, youre literally just playing an Extended deck at that point (a good extended deck, mind you).

[kabal]

What is the optimal manabase these days? Obviously you are going to include Cephalid Coliseum, what are the next 8 lands?

If you go with the board that supports more than just UB, then makes sense to run City and Gemstone Mine. Speaking of the board are cards like Ancient Grudge, Ray of Revelation, Emerald Charm or Firestorm that useful? Onto of the board, you could run Gamble to get those sliver bullets. What is the consensus on Gamble?

Back to the board, the key cards seems to be:

4 Leyline
4 CotV
4 Vaper
3 Needle (Crypt, Belcher, EE) or 3 Contagion (Jailer, Mage) Or 3 Charm (Leyline, Ghostly Prison) or 3 Firestorm (Goblin tokens or quick aggro) or 1 Ray/2 Grudge

Assuming we don't play non-UB, what would the best manabase be? 4 Underground Sea and what 4 Gemstone Mine? Seems that would be the best way to support 2 colors and take a minimal amount of damage from your lands. Especially since you could be mana burning from Diamond for 3 and taking damage from DA. In the end, you could just play Watery Grave along side Sea.

Finally, what are your feelings on Akroma, Angel of fury as additional DR target? Can't bounce it, can't Swords it, but it is a turn slower than the "Wrath" version.

[NQN]

I don`t like chalice as a Solution for Crypt in g2. Normaly they play Crypt on turn 1 and then you are busted. I prefer playing 4 needle 3 chalice so i can board in needles in g2 and if i might loose I have chalice for g3 instead of 3 needles.

[kirdape3]

I doubt that Extended sacrifices a lot of speed, since the deck is capable (and does with alarming regularity) of killing on turn 2 with a reasonable draw.

Really, the only difference between the Extended deck and the last posted version is the addition of Careful Study over Lion's Eye Diamond, Darkblast over Deep Analysis, and an Akroma in the list to provide a backup for when killing them with Zombies isn't enough. That doesn't end up being that large of a difference.

[Bovinious]

The optimal 8 other lands are 4 City of Brass and 4 Gemstone Mine, to be able to flashback Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge post SB, as said.

For the SB, Needle is pretty much just better than Chalice, you will be on the draw at least game 1, and if they draw Crypt then and play it your Chalice is dead. Finding 1 mana for Needle really is not that hard, so it is the better choice. My current SB has 4 Leyline, 4 Chain of Vapor, 4 Pithing Needle, 2 Ray of Revelation, 1 Ancient Grudge. Some people do still play 2 Gamble main I think, its just a personal preference over DR #3 + Sage #2 or 2 Careful Study.

The Extended version loses speed in the it cant win turn 1, though like you said it can "go off" on turn 2-3 surprisingly often, as I know from playing the deck. One reason I wouldnt try this in Legacy though is because this makes you much more vulnerable to Chalice at 1, as in you cant cast any of your spells through it. Its not a large difference youre right, but its probably still a bit worse.

[dlevsApiJ]

Hi,

Why everyone still plays Leyline? I havent used it in any tournement i played with this deck, and there are card that are much more usefull/needed SB.

So can anyone say to me why its so much needed (or does it depends in the difference in meta.. but i dont think so)

My sb at the moment:

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Gamble (1 MD)
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 1 [AL] Contagion
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [RAV] Blazing Archon

[Redlotus27]

So the question now is, out of 100 games, would one rather have 5 turn 1 wins or 20-30 turn 2/3 wins? This is assuming no disruption. I believe that the latter is the most desireable. Through some limited testing, I have found that the careful studies actually help tremendously in finding hatebuster cards in games 2 and 3 after the first one in your opening seven is used up. This comes at the expense of using them to dredge, which stinks... Ichorid wins tons of game 1, it more often struggles through game 2 and 3.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Hi,

Why everyone still plays Leyline? I havent used it in any tournement i played with this deck, and there are card that are much more usefull/needed SB.



Leyline is too important to not include. It even comes in against Goblins so their fanatics don't RFG your bridges, nevermind the fact that is strong in the mirror and the legions of other GY based decks.

[romain7]

Here is my list

Creatures
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp


Spells
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return


Enchantments
4 Bridge from Below


Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond


Lands
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 watery grave



Sideboard (15 cards)
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Darkblast
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle




I have tried using careful studies as an added boost, but they have been undesirable in testing and goldfishing. As a 5th and 6th breakthrough. Really, putrid imp works better with a coliseum and dredgers than having careful study turn one. Maybe I should test them more

2 THugs-I usually run dry ad fizzle with dredgers, which led me to play 2 thugs.

3 Deep analysis-this card is priceless in here. Why does it matter to take 1 mana burn from the diamond and 3 life from DA if you are going to win the turn you pull this off or the turn after? there are only three because i feel that 4 is too much as you usually stumble upon one with dredgers and you only play about 1 a game.

4 cabal therapy- this card is indespensable as a 4 off. I ran 3 for a while, but after trading 1 of these in for a DA out, the results are qutie well. WIth the emptying of your opponent's hand and the synergy with multiple bridges, dread return, and sage or akroma. One extra really allows you to slow your opponent down when you don't have to save them for the final kill.

1 akroma, angel of wrath- Akroma is another win condition. Although not entirely necessary, akroma does come into handy when you haven't dredged much, your bridges are gone, or ichorid has been extirpated. I have a friend who also runs a stasis deck. This is a bit of trouble for him and goblins are not fond of her either.

SB- I run only blue and black only because I think the other cards dilute it and are not needed at all. Why would you use ray of revelation? 1st turn leyline kind of stumps this card all together. 4 chain of vapor is the best solution for leyline and even for crypt, along with needles. In game two, You will have to sacrifice some speed against any deck for anti hate and you might have to save up a couple extra mana or more at times. Chain of vapor can be used even on crypt and then follow it with a therapy or with the extra lands saved, the combo can be started then.

[Muradin]

I don't agree with you that Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge are in general bad sideboard cards in this deck. I don't see them as a good solution for Tormods Crypt/ Leyline of the Void either. To solve those problems we still have Chain of Vapor and Needle/Chalice. I consider Ray and Grudge rather as the perfect solution against random artifacts or enchantments because you do not have to draw them in order to use them. For example Ray is good against: Confinement, Elephant Grass, Moat, Engineered Plague, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Humility...
Grudge helps alot against: Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, Zuran Orb + Manlands, Jitte ...

So those cards are not the most frequently played ones and neither the best hate against us, but as there are many of them you are quite likely to get paired against a deck playing one of those cards in a larger tournament. Then you do not have to board in chain of vapor to solve those problems and slow your whole engine down .You just board in 1-2 cards and make sure you get them as soon as you want to swing for the win because you have big parts of your deck in your graveyard anyway at that time.

[dlevsApiJ]

Leyline is too important to not include. It even comes in against Goblins so their fanatics don't RFG your bridges, nevermind the fact that is strong in the mirror and the legions of other GY based decks.

Goblins isnt played many times, Ichorid isnt played many times (I'm 1 of the few who plays it in my whole country I think,, ok,, holland isnt very big :tongue: , the deck is soooo underplayed here)

Against gravebased decks (*****, loam ?) you better want things as Needle and Vapor, boarding more cards out just makes the other part of your deck weaker, dredge and win.

Ok, against Fanatic it's good, but in my SB, I replaced the LotV with cards that are solutions against more played cards,, and eventually, you can play Contagion/Darkblast on thei fanatic, before you dredged many times.

EDIT: which fatty should I play in the SB, Akroma. AoWrath or Blazing Archon. Akroma is more an alternatice win condition, when someone can easy remove your Ichorids + Bridges,, Archon is against aggro decks who dont have an answer against him (and Etw tokens). But I dont know which of the 2 should be better...

Mvg

[romain7]

Akroma. Archon doesn't do as much for you if it survives, or if your combo is screwed via extirpate or something along the lines of that. You should already be faster than any other aggro deck so akroma is a win more and win fast. It keeps to the theme.

[Daze]

Has anyone tested Undiscovered Paradise? I found that the drawbacks of both City and Mine can matter (although the later can rarely help to achieve threshold), and Paradise's drawback can help with endstep-discard if you didn't drege into more dredgers. I can't really think of a reason why it should not replace at least one City/Mine with it.
By the way, why is 12 the agreed number of lands to play, seemingly regardless of the number of spells played?
Furthermore, how where the Deep Analysis for those of you who run 3? Personally, I never managed to flashback more than one, however running 3 increases the chance to be able to do so. Was it woth the slot?

[dlevsApiJ]

Thats why i play 1 Dakmor Salvage, Dredge it for 2, and (of you already have 1 land) Dredge the turn after it for 12-18..

And your not faster as every other aggro deck, Ichorid isnt always fast, and especially Goblins (with their fanatics) can be faster then you.. Then Archon is much better then Akroma..

Mvg

EDIT: last time, I'm testing this deck in Extended, and the Tireless Tribes are very cool (expecially against Doran decks :P stupid they arent played in Legacy), to play more "imps" (I like Imp so much in this deck,, you can go so consistent with him, I like this play the most: turn1: Imp, turn2: upkeep, discard dredgers, then dredge, when you have more dredgers in hand also discard then, and then play a draw spell (or land). So maybe ad 2 Tireless Tribes? I think I can find 2 slots for them, I will post my new list soon (I'm also testing 2 Thug and 2 Darkblast main, cause if the oppo plays a creature turn 1 (I always let my oppo begin, to know if he plays counter, so I could better go EOT discard), you can Darblast it, and then Dredge).

[Bovinious]

Dahkmor Salvage is the nut low, you cant really count it as a dredger because it only dredges 2, and as a land its pretty bad also because it takes you 2 turns to get a mana out of it, and you need to waste a dredge. If you are playing more spells (2 Study or 2 Tribe, whatever), you could play an Undiscovered as a 9th land, I have done that in the past but dont really find it necessary. Some people like having more land to reduce mulligans though.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Just the other day I won (split in the finals) an extended tourney with this deck:
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath (has to be in here turn 2 Deed = loss without)
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
2x Tireless Tribe (amazing consistency + makes Doran Awesome for you)
2x Cephalid Sage
2x Darkblast (I would play this over Spineless Thug in MD any day)
3x Cabal Therapy
3x Ichorid (4 just seems like to many)
3x Dread Return
4x Narcomoeba
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Bridge from Below
4x Breakthrough
4x Putrid Imp
4x Careful Study
3x Tarnished Citadel
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine

SB:
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Darkblast
4x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Chain of Vapor

This deck is INSANELY consistent. The tourney had roughly 32ish people and there was like 6 dredge, a lot of counterbalance control, at least 5 Doran rock decks, tarmoburn, 2 Death Cloud, some random aggro, balancing tings, and cephalid breakfast; basically every viable deck archetype in extended. I played the mirror 3X TIMES and those were the only times I brought in Leyline of the Void. The deck really doesn't need Leyline in the sideboard at all unless the meta is full of dredge or iggy. And siding it in against thresh is to defensive of a play when you should be trying to keep the aggression goin instead of backing it off. Leyline is to defensive of a card to be put in a deck that is crazy aggressive. The problem of Mogg Fanatic or Arcbound Ravager is easily solved with Pithing Needle or end of turn Chain of Vapor. Now the reason I mention extended is that this version is more consistent and almost as fast as the Legacy version from what I have been testing (I have been playing Ernest Turck's list from Legacy Championship). The deck just seems so random and I mulligan a LOT more with this build than my extended build. My point is that I think legacy dredge has almost to much pure speed which causes it to sacrifice consistency. Maybe I am playing it funny or I need to give it more time. Any thoughts?

[Brehn]

Just don't play Ernest Turck's list, it's outdated. People have come to the conclusion that rainbow lands are better than Underground Seas and Lotus Petals suck. 7 lands and 3 Petals lead to mulligans, that's why current lists play 11-13 lands and 0 Petals. Just copy and paste some of the lists posted here and test them.
Also, note the differences between Legacy and Extended. Stuff like TES/Belcher/Iggy/consistent Breakfast exists -> Speed is relevant. Swords to Plowshares exists -> Akroma sucks. Living Wish for Jailer doesn't exist -> no need for Darkblast main.

[Pulp_Fiction]

I love Darkblast in the main mainly because my meta will randomly have a lot of goblins running around, and not only is it a great answer to Mogg Fanatic, but it keeps breakfast in check, keeps your opponent off Dark Confidant forever, is an answer to the occassional Gaddock Teeg/Jailer, and dredges for only 1 less than the thug.

[dlevsApiJ]

I love Darkblast in the main
Yeah, what you say, just what I was thinking with the card (the Fanatics and Confidants). In my testings till now, I also love them :smile:


Dahkmor Salvage is the nut low, you cant really count it as a dredger because it only dredges 2, and as a land its pretty bad also because it takes you 2 turns to get a mana out of it, and you need to waste a dredge.

You waste 1 Dredge, but of you already have 1 land (will be most of the time), you can flashback DA to Dredge 2 times more... (I have said this many times before.. even in the post where you wrote a reaction to) Thats a big plus I think, isnt it?

The only problem of the Tribe is, that it isnt removable for Ichorid,, I realy hope Shadowmoor ("dark" block, I hope it also bring other good Ichorid cards) will bring a new PImp, than I will cut 2 Thug for them (I play 4 Troll, 4 Imp, 2 Darkblast and 1 Salvage main, so no problem with less dredgers).. Cutting the 2 Thug for 2 Tribe, doesnt look good enough with your Ichorid..

I will do some tests (with Tribe, Darkblast main, and a little bit Salvage (the card already convinced me)),, and post if I have something useful to say :smile: .


-Jip

[Bovinious]

Yeah, what you say, just what I was thinking with the card (the Fanatics and Confidants). In my testings till now, I also love them :smile:



You waste 1 Dredge, but of you already have 1 land (will be most of the time), you can flashback DA to Dredge 2 times more... (I have said this many times before.. even in the post where you wrote a reaction to) Thats a big plus I think, isnt it?

The only problem of the Tribe is, that it isnt removable for Ichorid,, I realy hope Shadowmoor ("dark" block, I hope it also bring other good Ichorid cards) will bring a new PImp, than I will cut 2 Thug for them (I play 4 Troll, 4 Imp, 2 Darkblast and 1 Salvage main, so no problem with less dredgers).. Cutting the 2 Thug for 2 Tribe, doesnt look good enough with your Ichorid..

I will do some tests (with Tribe, Darkblast main, and a little bit Salvage (the card already convinced me)),, and post if I have something useful to say :smile: .


-Jip

Darkblast MD may be ok as an extra answer to Jailer, I'm just not sure I'd like to cut a Thug for it though in a build with 4 Ichorid. In Extended its okay to do because you only run 2-3 Ichorid, not so sure you can it as safely here.

With Salvage you have to wait a turn, so you really only gain 1 extra Dredge out of it (since you wasted 1 to bring it out). To me this rare occurence 9since you just run 1) doesnt seem worth the 1 slot.

[romain7]

Really, lotus petals do suck in this deck. Sure, they are another way for a turn one win,but you would need to draw another land in your opening hand. Lands are rare enough in the opening hand and there are no extra slots for extra mana.

Akroma is uneccessary. It is good to have another win condition at times, but she is too vulnerable from swords and people have found other ways around her. I find it hard to keep her in play when i do get her out. If you are going to pick a fattie I would go with her. Blazing archon is a waste of a dread return when she gets incinerated by a gempalm right after she comes into play.

3 deep analysis is really enough. How many times have you played DA in one game? Usually just once. Really, it is your worst draw engine because it doesn't allow discard on its own, but the flashback has made it irreplacable. You usually dredge into it and a large portion of the time you will have only one land anyway. You don't want it in your opening hand unless you have a diamond with it. Even then, you would rather have breakthrough with the diamond intstead.


I've really been leaning to careful study for added consistancy instead of the tribe. The discard ability really helps a lot in the long run, but wouldn't you rather just gain two cards (that you might need), discard two cards and not have a long run?

For this I would drop akroma(going to anyway), go down to 3 cabal therapy, and get rid of dakmor salvage.

Dakmor Salvage has not really helped at all. It irritates me more than anything and I think it just takes up a slot. If it didn't tap when it came into play it would be a whole different ball game. But, it's not.



Maybe this is just polluting, but has anyone thought about stalking vengeance. I don't think it would work as well as I really want it to.

[Maagler]

I am thinking about testing 2 tireless tribes in my deck instead of maindeck gambles. this would allow me to have 4 PImps two of which don't remove to ichorid.

Deck:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [5E] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot

// Spells
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [OD] Tireless tribe

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [US] Gamble
SB: 1 [RAV] Darkblast


Tirless tribe:

Pros-
- Is another discard outlet.
- Can be used as a big blocker against tarmogoyf (and will live)

Cons-
- cannot be removed for Ichorid
- can be killed by terror :tongue:
- could be replaced by a faster but more venerable card (like tolarian winds or careful study)

All in all I will test them and see how they go. In the matchups that I face around my area there are a lot of tarmogoyfs and threshold, so I am thinking that they may work in the deck. True story: I lost a round to thres that dropped all four goyfs against me. anyways what do you think?

[J.V.]

- can be killed by terror :tongue:

come on Andy lets be reasonable here... at least say Shriekmaw. :tongue:
Also last time I checked Tireless tribe was a creature...

[dlevsApiJ]

Darkblast MD may be ok as an extra answer to Jailer, I'm just not sure I'd like to cut a Thug for it though in a build with 4 Ichorid. In Extended its okay to do because you only run 2-3 Ichorid, not so sure you can it as safely here.

With Salvage you have to wait a turn, so you really only gain 1 extra Dredge out of it (since you wasted 1 to bring it out). To me this rare occurence 9since you just run 1) doesnt seem worth the 1 slot.

Yeah, cutting the 2 Thug for the 2 Blasts isnt good, in the new list I'm testing, i Cutted the Sage, FKZ, and only play 1 D Return (for Grave-Troll,, sometimes thats really needed.. when your Bridges are gonne,, and you need a Blocker or something).. Cause mose of the time you board them out, only not against fast-combo-decks (in the Mirror they are also good).. But when your grave is so full,, you can also Therapy them..
Ok, against Combo, playing with FKZ/Sage is better against combo,, but its also only a,, especially in the mirror (were Therapy lategame is very weak!), but Combo isnt played very much in my meta (I wonn from TES on a tourney one time,, when I didnt play with the Sage,, CotV is good, there, and I have Gambles to find them,, and against Belcher I can also board my peedles),, so I better make my starting hands better,, so I made this list:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass
1 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage (see below)

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
3 [OD] Careful Study (I can cut 1 for a Tireless Tribe.. I think I gonna test that)
2 [RAV] Darkblast
1 [TSP] Dread Return


// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Gamble
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [VI] Emerald Charm
SB: 1 [AL] Contagion
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge

Cause I have have 13 dredgers now (!) I'm thinking of cutting Salvage (and also because you only "winn" one dredge,, in my head it was more,, but yeah,, youre right,, thats isnt worth the slot..) for a Rainbow land,, which one should be better,, Undiscovered Paradise or Tarnished Citadel,, I havent tested them,, so before I have to,, maybe someone van say it :smile: ,, I think the Paradise will be better (no pain,, and it returns in upkeep,, no problem,, cause you play most games only 1 land...)

What do you guys think of this list?


- Jip

[Brehn]

I'm absolutely not a fan of decreasing the deck's flexibility by cutting the Return package. Remember, it's not only there to have a chance against combo, it also improves your aggro matchup and helps to fight through Extirpate. If you play your list, go Hellbent and your opponent plays Extirpate on Bridge just in time, you'll most probably lose if you don't have access to more than 2 Ichorids fast enough. And if Loam is really about to make a comeback with Crusher, you'll see plenty of Extirpates. The lone Return with Grave-Troll as its only target looks pretty random, is it just there for stalling?

[Bovinious]

List, etc

If there is really NO fast combo in your meta, then I think it may be permissible to cut FKZ/Sage, but realize that this will make game 1s a bit less dominant for you. Even so, from your list I would cut the Dahkmor Salvage and a Darkblast for another Dread Return (in case 1 gets countered, I assume with no combo there is lots of blue) and the 4th Careful Study. 11 Dredgers really is the magic number with this deck, you definitely dont need more and could possibly even go less if you want to be gutsy. Also, Undiscovered Paradise is probably better than Citadel, the gating ability isnt really a drawback all that often and it can be helpful sometimes as well.

[dlevsApiJ]

But I cutted the FKZ/Sage, just to have a faster turn 1..
With this changes,, your average starting hand becomes better, and when your grave is very full,, you are slower.. I prefer it to have a better starting hand..
And when you have FKZ/Sage + D Return in your grave,, you also have 1, 2 or 3 Therapys in your grave, to remove the Extirpate (and when they can play it in resp,, they can also play it in resp when you're playing D Return)

Against combo (and sometimes against aggro) the list isnt better,, but against (aggro) control,, and loam variants,, I like it much more,, and those decks are the biggest part of my meta... ;).


I will test my list (also with your tips Bovinious),, and post something of I found something "important" about it.


Mvg


EDIT: I used your changes, Bovinious, but removed 2 Study for 2 Gamble main (they were in SB), so I could play 1 Echoing Truth and 1 Emerald Charm side... Just played against Affinity,, wonn 2-1,, didnt expected that.. Without the Sage and FKZ that matchup has to be worser than before.. Even when he removed 2 Bridges (I only got 1 back), by saccing creatures for his Ravager I still wonn.. 1 game doesnt say anything (can be lucky),, but I like the list till now.. (and of course it wasnt the first game I tested,, but the first game in a matchups that should be worser now..)

[dlevsApiJ]

How do you guys play the *****(/Landstill) MU?
EOT discard seems to slow (especially against *****, cause we really boost their Goyfs,, and also some Landstill builds run him),, but when you go (LED ->) Breakthrough/Careful Study,, they counter it most of the time (SW should be really good,, EOT discard a dredger because of 8 cards in hand,, and then SW,, but I dont think thats worth the slot :tongue: ).. So what should be the best play...

I'm also thinking if it will be better to be on the play or on the draw..
On the play you dont have to be affraid of Discard (Duress/Seize on your PImp/Breakthough/Study is sooo nasty,, cause it was your only discard outlet in your hand,, you have to wait 1 turn more before you can discard EOT),, and Daze.
But on the draw,, you see their land,, and mostly of the time you know if they play counter, so if you can better play your spells, or go EOT discard. On the draw you can also immidiately go EOT discard..
I think, that of you rolled the highest, choose to be on the draw would be the best.. or am I wrong with this? (this is 1 of the hardest things for me while playing this deck: playing spells,, or go to a 7+ hand for EOT discard,, when youre playing against counter-decks)

Can anyone help me with this :)?


Mvg Jip

[LordEvilTeaCup]

I haven't been playing this deck to long, but I like going on the play. The 7+ Eot discard dredger turn 1 only happens if your opening hand doesn't fail. So far, I find myself mulliganing at least to 6 and to 5 if I have to. I would rather take the chance of my opponent playing islands and give them a slightly less chance of them drawing into FoW. The speed is pretty relevant too, because you never know if you are facing another combo deck.

[dlevsApiJ]

And when you Know you are playing against combo,, should playing your spells (being fast but risky), or EOT discard (being slow but not risky) be better :smile: ?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

And when you Know you are playing against combo,, should playing your spells (being fast but risky), or EOT discard (being slow but not risky) be better :smile: ?

I think the only combo that you would even think playing more carefully against is Cephalid Breakfast which has Fow and the like. Against TES or Belcer its a race, so I would think the right call would be playing fast as possible. Hope that helps, although hopefully someone more knowledgeable will step in and offer their advice.

[Tacosnape]

The right call against Cephalid Breakfast is still to play fast. You beat any combo deck by rolling as many Therapies into your yard as fast as possible.

If you're worried about Cephalid Breakfast drawing its entire combo while still having Force backup, you're going to have some problems. I mean, you can worry about dying irl, too. Eventually they're both going to happen, and there's really not a lot you can do about either one. Sometimes people get transplants, and sometimes people play Sui Black and draw two Rituals, a Seize, a Hymn, and a Shade. But worrying about good decks like Cephalid Breakfast godhanding you on rare occasions doesn't make it worth switching to a passive strategy and losing even more games you'd win if you played aggressively.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Thats good to hear. Having to change pacing for different match ups can be a headache in a long tournament. At least the combo match-up is straight forward, but are there in fact instances where you should slow it down?

[Bovinious]

Against other combo you just need to race and either win before them or hit Therapies. Like Taco said, Breakfast wont always have the win with FoW backup, and if they do slowrolling would have done you no good anyways. You play fast against combo, and make a judgement call vs. Thresh/Landstill. To me it depends on the hand I draw, but usually going EOT discard kills them fast enough, they generally have little clock.

[dlevsApiJ]

Thanks for al the comments,, but I meant control instead of combo :rolleyes: (stupid me).. With al the non-control decks I dont have many problems,, but when they play FOW + Daze, I make many mistakes I think..
But Bovinious said it already about (aggro/)controldecks :smile: (thanks :smile: ) .. And when you have enough dredgers in your hand, so dont need EOT discard, you can therapy them for FOW/Daze, and then play your Study/Breakthrough.

So against counter decks, you will be on the draw game 2, against non-counter deck, you better be on the play :). And against an unknown deck, I still want to be on the draw (since +/- 50% of my meta here is counter,, I dont want to take the "risk",, especially not, because combo is sooo underplayed here (and I know most players in my country that play combo, so I'm prepared :tongue: ), and I'm not afraid of most decks before SBing, so the 1 turn difference doesnt make sence)

Jip

[thejack]

I just love playing against control when playing Ichorid, it's like easy. You just go EOT discard and you'r good to go. even ***** isn't fast enough to beat your clock if you find some blockers and at least 1 bridge by turn 3.

Goyf swings on turn 3 if they cast it as fast as possible. by then you will have dredged once, it may happen that you didn't dredge anything relevant.

So on turn 3 you get like 5 damage. Then your down to like 15 (perhaps a little less if you played a city or a colliseum and used it).

On your turn 3 you dredge again. suppose you don't find anything good once again. Then you will get hit by goyf again on the opponents turn 4.

So let's assume he dropped a second goyf on his turn 3 then you will get bashed for a max of 12 damage. getting you down to 3 or perhaps 1 or 2. Now if they play red *****, well you'r dead if they do not, you get another turn to dredge.

So dredge again, now you need to find some things but what are the odds you didn't find anything relevant by now.

Straight up control is even better, just get Ichorids to do the job for you.

[Brehn]

I just love playing against control when playing Ichorid, it's like easy. You just go EOT discard and you'r good to go. even ***** isn't fast enough to beat your clock if you find some blockers and at least 1 bridge by turn 3.

QFT. Ichorid is kind of designed to beat control, and aggro-control is just control that plays a fattie for 1G on turn 2. Just don't keep a hand that has to rely on casting Breakthrough and you're good. Usually it doesn't matter if he gets double Goyf because you have good chumpblockers with P.Imp and Narcomoeba which even produce more chumpblockers with Bridges. That way, once you're down in the red zone, he still needs 3-4 turns to clear the blockers, that should be enough time for you to win. Problems may only occur if he's playing Engineered Explosives.

An example hand I've had game 1 vs UGb Threshold (Top 8, so I've seen his list) on the play (I _always_ choose to play. Choosing to draw against a deck with Dazes is idiotic.):
City of Brass, Coliseum, Breakthrough, Grave-Troll, Bridge, Ichorid, Stinkweed Imp.
I'm quite sure that in this case it's wrong to go Land -> Breakthrough, because you're totally out of gas if he has the Force. I've passed the turn without doing anything, went to EOT-discard-mode and took some damage from non-chumpblocked Mongeese and Goyfs (something between 9 and 14). Eventually, I've had enough dredgers in the grave, so I went Land->Breakthrough to have it countered, next turn Coliseum -> win. Although I dredged very unluckily (all lands, all LEDs etc), he never had a chance.

[Bovinious]

I _always_ choose to play. Choosing to draw against a deck with Dazes is idiotic.):

This is how I think also, I dont think theres any harm in playing first, looking at your opening grip, seeing if it scoops to force, and either trying to start going off turn 1 or just pass and go EOT discard next turn. Even if you pass the turn after playing first, the opponent just gains 1 extra card, basically as if they played first but drew a card also. That doesnt seem that bad to me, since if you just passed the turn turn 1, you are obviously trying to get to 8 to EOT discard, so the fact that they have an extra turn to draw FoW isnt really a big deal, since you likely wont play a spell until they have been Therapyd anyways.

[dlevsApiJ]

But when you are on the play, you cant see if they play counter, and have FOW, so when you play land -> Breakthough/PImp/Study(/Gamble, in my list), and they FOW it, you only have 5 cards in your hand, so you have to wait 3 turns! before you can EOT discard. I dont like to take that risk.

About the argument of Daze, because I let them play, I know if they can play counter, so when I see blue fetch (ok, now I'm not 100% sure of they play counter)/dual, I dont have to be affraid of the Daze they can play, because I go EOT -> Discard.

I think it depens on your "playstyle" with the deck.. Even as your list..

Jip

[BreathWeapon]

I'm a big fan of this configuration,

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Deep Analysis
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

Putrid Imp is cut for Nether Shadow and Careful Study is fit into the deck by cutting 4xes into 3xes, you maximize your explosiveness with the additional LED + Outlet combinations while getting more mileage out of your combo turn with additional free creatures and strengthen your ability to slow roll at the same time. Nether Shadow is definitely underrated in any number in this deck, you guys should put some time into him.

[Brehn]

Maybe Nether Shadow is underrated, maybe not. But... holy crap, what are you doing to the deck? You've cut the Putrid Imps!


strengthen your ability to slow roll

No, you don't. The best way to slowroll is to have a Putrid Imp on the board and a dredger in hand. That way you can not only reliably dredge in your draw step no matter what your current hand size is, but also quickly change plans from "slow roll" to "all in". Also, 2/2 flying beater ftw. Also, Therapy fodder. Also, have you played against Tormod's Crypts? If you have, haven't you ever missed 4 additional ways to play around it?

Maybe Nether Shadow is underrated, maybe not. But... never ever cut those Imps. Fit your pet cards into other slots.

[Ozymandias]

Since I acquired all of the cards to play thid deck today, I have a question: Let's say I have a Golgari Grave-Troll in my graveyard, and nothing else. If I canst Breakthrough, and dredge back Grave-Troll, flipping over another Troll in the process, can I dredge that back to my hand with one of the three remaining Breakthrough draws? My gut says yes, but I want to be sure.

[Silvoz]

Since I acquired all of the cards to play thid deck today, I have a question: Let's say I have a Golgari Grave-Troll in my graveyard, and nothing else. If I canst Breakthrough, and dredge back Grave-Troll, flipping over another Troll in the process, can I dredge that back to my hand with one of the three remaining Breakthrough draws? My gut says yes, but I want to be sure.

Yes you can!

[Bovinious]

61 card list with Study, Shadow, no PImp


Maybe Nether Shadow is underrated, maybe not. But... holy crap, what are you doing to the deck? You've cut the Putrid Imps!

No, you don't. The best way to slowroll is to have a Putrid Imp on the board and a dredger in hand. That way you can not only reliably dredge in your draw step no matter what your current hand size is, but also quickly change plans from "slow roll" to "all in". Also, 2/2 flying beater ftw. Also, Therapy fodder. Also, have you played against Tormod's Crypts? If you have, haven't you ever missed 4 additional ways to play around it?

Maybe Nether Shadow is underrated, maybe not. But... never ever cut those Imps. Fit your pet cards into other slots.

QFT, also, Ichorid gets much weaker without PImp to RFG to him, I mean I guess you could remove Shadow but that would defeat the point of running it if itd just be Ichorid food...

61 cards is also a frown and always wrong.

[C.P.]

I'm a big fan of this configuration,

4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Deep Analysis
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine

Putrid Imp is cut for Nether Shadow and Careful Study is fit into the deck by cutting 4xes into 3xes, you maximize your explosiveness with the additional LED + Outlet combinations while getting more mileage out of your combo turn with additional free creatures and strengthen your ability to slow roll at the same time. Nether Shadow is definitely underrated in any number in this deck, you guys should put some time into him.

Don't you find yourself running out of dredgers due to lack of constant discard outlet? Perhaps a Phatasgomarian or something to fix the problem?

[LordEvilTeaCup]

You know, this deck is actually pretty difficult to play optimally. I find myself missing silly stuff like not RFGing my PImp to my Ichorid during my upkeep. Its not too bad, but definitely more difficult than aggro control decks and the like. Playing against hate and mulligan decisions game 2 seem to be quite tough as well. Any tips to become a better pilot of this deck?

[Ataxrxes]

You know, this deck is actually pretty difficult to play optimally. I find myself missing silly stuff like not RFGing my PImp to my Ichorid during my upkeep. Its not too bad, but definitely more difficult than aggro control decks and the like. Playing against hate and mulligan decisions game 2 seem to be quite tough as well. Any tips to become a better pilot of this deck?

Seriously? Start from page one of this thread and read through it again. Then just play as many games as you can, be it on MWS or at your shop or whatever. When your not doing that goldfish the hell out of it. Basically, practice, practice, and more practice.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Seriously? Start from page one of this thread and read through it again. Then just play as many games as you can, be it on MWS or at your shop or whatever. When your not doing that goldfish the hell out of it. Basically, practice, practice, and more practice.

Ha ha, thanks for the great advice. I have been goldfishing this deck probably 30 minutes a day, but having got many competitive games in yet. MWS seems pretty counter-intuitive as far as playing goes and can't seem to use properly... Perhaps its because I only play aggro-control, burn, and control in all formats that combo seemed to be a step up in difficulty. I just see myself getting more warnings with this deck in a tourney, then say Sui.... Would you say this deck is on the easier spectrum of combo, or about average? I think combo is my new fav archetype, because there are a greater variety of elements that you have to keep tract off. It actually feels strategic... Still, I imagine TES, and especially Solidarity to be harder to play.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

I wouldn't necessarily say Ichorid is on the easier side of the spectrum. I myself find it counterinruitive quite often. For example, after about 10 years of playing magic it's just natural to just untap and go for the top card of your library at the beginning of your turn. It really isn't difficult to stop for a second and just remember that you're playing Ichorid and you're not supposed to do that, it really isn't, it's just different. When i play Ichorid i just have to constantly remind myself i'm playing Ichorid. It's like the first time i drove a car in England after driving normal cars all my life: it's not hard to understand it's all the same but different. In fact, other approaching cars and the double continuous line on your right constantly remind you of it, yet, i kept punching the door with my right hand every time i wanted to change gears! How stupid is that!? Sometimes the brain is just not bloody happy when you change the routine. So no, i don't thing Ichorid is a particularly easy or hard, you just have to stop and ask yourself is you're supposed to be doing something else (this is actually a good habit with any deck but more so with Ichorid).

As for the easy side of the combo decks spectrum, i believe Belcher would be first.

[BreathWeapon]

QFT, also, Ichorid gets much weaker without PImp to RFG to him, I mean I guess you could remove Shadow but that would defeat the point of running it if itd just be Ichorid food...

61 cards is also a frown and always wrong.

It depends on whether or not there's another target for Ichorid, a recurrable black creature in the discard pile is going to better than one who is nothing but Ichorid fodder.

@Above

Pimp is kind of overrated, he's slow and a single 2/2 flier isn't better than multiple 1/1 hasted creatures once the deck is in motion. When I said slow roll, I meant Draw, Discard, Dredge, at which point having an additional threat recurring from the discard pile is superior to an uncastable outlet. Pimp doesn't solve the Tormod's Crypt problem either, once Tormod's Crypt resolves it just turns into X Time Walks as Pimp tries to play around it. The best way to deal with Tormod's Crypt is usually to scoop to it and go to game 3 on the play. They can't mulligan/draw into Tormod's Crypt 100% of the time before you either go off or resolve an answer. By concentrating on Breakthrough/Careful Study + LED and increasing the number of free creatures in the deck, you go off faster and establish a greater board presence.

I'm not a 61 card purest, but I'm sure there's something that can be cut tho'.

[Brehn]

The best way to deal with Tormod's Crypt is usually to scoop to it and go to game 3 on the play. They can't mulligan/draw into Tormod's Crypt 100% of the time before you either go off or resolve an answer.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

If you scoop to a crypt, seriously, play another deck. Look at this comment:

I wouldn't necessarily say Ichorid is on the easier side of the spectrum.
He's right. This deck is way too hard to play for you.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

What are the odds???

I thought i'd post this one just for fun. I was testing last night against TES. It's first turn of game 1, i'm on the play and TES mulliganed to 6 or 5. My hand is 2 LEDs, 2 Deep Analysis, 1 troll and 2 irrelevant cards. I go for it putting 2 LEDs in play and breaking the first one to flashback Deep Analysis dredging the troll back to my hand. I see two more trolls and dredge another one for the second card, milling the fourth troll and a combination of Pimps, thugs, bridges, and the third Deep Analysis. I break the second LED to flashback the two Deep Analyses in my graveyard (bringing back 2 trolls and 2 imps to my hand). I see with surprise that at this point i have seen 41 cards of my deck, including 4 Narcomoebas in play but not a single Dread Return bring anything into play (Sage, Zealot and 4 bridges are already in the graveyard). At least i can therapy TES to make sure i get another turn... but nope, no Cabal Therapy in graveyard yet so i have to pass the turn and hope i get another one. TES plays a land and does nothing and i'm ready to win in my turn. In my draw step i dredge an imp and see a combination of nothing, no Return, no Therapy and no Ichorid (did you notice i didn't put an Ichorid in play during my upkeep?). At this point there are only 14 cards left in my graveyard including 4 Ichorids, 3 Dread Return and 4 Cabal therapy! I attack for 4. TES wins next turn :(

[slobad23]

If I were you I wouldn't step outside the front door of your house... who knows what might happen to you!

I have had the same problem, but more that i get unlucky with narcomeoba's being dredged i.e. I don't dredge them!

I saw a list on http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=12840 from the ancient memory convention recently and the ichorid list in Top 8 played a Protean Hulk. The only thing I can think of this being used for is to sac' to a cabal therapy and find some narc's or a sage when you don't otherwise have one to return with a dread return.

What do you think of Protean Hulk as a dread return target? seems less of an alternate win condition than an Akroma, and more of a cephalid sage style card - it helps you go off when you otherwise couldn't.

Thoughts?

(oh and the 4 main deck leyline... maybe it was just a meta call)

[LordEvilTeaCup]

My luck with this deck seems pretty descent. Maybe its time you guys save some puppies to increase your luck and karma :wink:

I think the Protean Hulk idea could be interesting as a 1 of. However, I would think an additional sage instead would usually be better. Sometimes shit happens and you don't see that therapy to sac the Hulk.

[Bovinious]

What are the odds???

I thought i'd post this one just for fun. I was testing last night against TES. It's first turn of game 1, i'm on the play and TES mulliganed to 6 or 5. My hand is 2 LEDs, 2 Deep Analysis, 1 troll and 2 irrelevant cards. I go for it putting 2 LEDs in play and breaking the first one to flashback Deep Analysis dredging the troll back to my hand. I see two more trolls and dredge another one for the second card, milling the fourth troll and a combination of Pimps, thugs, bridges, and the third Deep Analysis. I break the second LED to flashback the two Deep Analyses in my graveyard (bringing back 2 trolls and 2 imps to my hand). I see with surprise that at this point i have seen 41 cards of my deck, including 4 Narcomoebas in play but not a single Dread Return bring anything into play (Sage, Zealot and 4 bridges are already in the graveyard). At least i can therapy TES to make sure i get another turn... but nope, no Cabal Therapy in graveyard yet so i have to pass the turn and hope i get another one. TES plays a land and does nothing and i'm ready to win in my turn. In my draw step i dredge an imp and see a combination of nothing, no Return, no Therapy and no Ichorid (did you notice i didn't put an Ichorid in play during my upkeep?). At this point there are only 14 cards left in my graveyard including 4 Ichorids, 3 Dread Return and 4 Cabal therapy! I attack for 4. TES wins next turn :(

Yeah...I lost in the top8 of a PTQ last weekend with Dredge because my last Dread Return and last Bridge from Below were in the bottom 4 cards of my deck, get over it. Well that was just game 1, but I went on to lose the match :frown:

But yeah that kind of shit happens with this deck occasionally, nothing we can do really just play your game, but realize you will lose to yourself in a such a way every so often.

[Bane of the Living]

Ive been off this board for some time and I cant say I missed it at all. The board is so spammed with bad decklists that bring up issues we've already discussed in depth pages back.

I realize we're 22 pages in and most of the newer players need to learn about the deck.

Im really sad no ones running my current list. I've put alot of innovation into this archetype. There are some really ugly things going on in comparison. I see people playing no Sages' cutting Breakthroughs, running Carefull Study over PImps even.

Akroma as a Dread Return target is awful. Id much rather be playing a second Sage and win the game the way the deck is designed too.

If Dragon Stompy is a part of your meta run a good amount of Ancient Grudge and mulligan to crazy hands.

Chalice should be run over Needle. Period. If your not a good enough Ichorid player to deal a Crypt here and there then you should put the deck down. The two biggest reasons to play CotV are to give you a chance against Extirpate and to be prepared for the mirror match. The mirror is all about LED -> DA's. If you dont have your own LED you need to stop your opponents from windmill slamming them on the table.

Dragon Stompy hates to see Chalice @ 0 stopping their Chrome Moxen, they're entire hand can crumble if they were relying on it.

Like Bovinious said its most likely pilot error that causes your game loses not the decklist. I see no changes for this deck until better cards are printed for it. Ive torn Gatherer apart for inclusions and I promise you Nether Shadow doesnt make the cut.

[BKclassic]

What is your current list?

[Joon]

This is my current decklist, I'm throwing it together at the moment and I plan to play several small tournaments with it.

Lands:

4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures:

4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Other Spellz:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return

SB:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Contagion

I guess the Sideboard is (except Chalices and Leylines) pretty much personal preference. As I have several decks in my meta that tend to play 2-3 Jailer in the SB (or even the full playset -.-) I like Contagions in the Artifact/Enchantenthate slot. Chain does this job, too.
I'm satisfied with this list, but what do yout think...?

[whienot]

Joon,

Is there really any advantage to running the rainbow lands when everything you are going to cast (sideboard included) is only B/U?

I suppose you can try to bluff artifact/enchantment hate.

[Joon]

Hardcast Zealot :eek:

Seriously, the Sideboard is tested and most changed thing. Before this version I played 3 Gamble in the side instead of 3 Contagion. In the Place of one Chalice and one Chain I played 2 Wax/Wane, which are the best spells to kill Leyline I suppose. But tutoring with Gamble was often too risky (discard the chalice/Chain etc) and so I decided to run Contagion in this Slot. Something like 1 Contagion 2 Wax/wane could also be played (as Leyline Solution 5-6 and Jailer solution number 5 in addition to chains). With exactly this List it would be better to run 4 Underground Sea and 3 Watery Grave I suppose.

[LordEvilTeaCup]

Im really sad no ones running my current list. I've put alot of innovation into this archetype. There are some really ugly things going on in comparison. I see people playing no Sages' cutting Breakthroughs, running Carefull Study over PImps even.



If you don't mind, could you show us your current list again Bane? It takes time for people like myself to catch up with a deck like this which works very different from most other decks. For what its worth, I have read and reread this whole thread and have picked up a lot of valuable information from you. The work you put forth so far I am sure, is very much appreciated.

[gnurbel2000]

Did someone try Wispmare in place of Ray of Relevation?
Usually you want it against Leyline and W is much easier to pay then 1W with only 12 lands, especially when you fear a Thoughtseize/Duress which could grab your answer against Leyline. And against a casted midgame Leyline you can even Dread Return it.
Against decks with a potential G2 Leyline you have to guess if they have it or not. And now if they don't have it you can evoke the Wispmare for W to get 1-4 Zombie token.

[myselves]

Lands:

4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures:

4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

Other Spellz:

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return


I've been testin' a very similar list the last times, the only thing I would change is:
+ 1 Dr.Return
- 1 random card (P.Imp seems to be the best, cause you have enough discardoutlets anytime with even 3)

[Joon]

I dislike cutting any other spell for Dread Return as two is usually enough. Also, I'll never cut P.imp from this deck. Petcards ftw! :tongue:
I guess that Careful Study and Pimp bring consistency to this deck and cutting consistency for more combo sucks, especially in this deck.

[myselves]

I guess that Careful Study and Pimp bring consistency to this deck and cutting consistency for more combo sucks, especially in this deck.

Yeah, but 3 Dr.Returns increases the combo consistency, I just suggested to cut one Imp, and three Imps are actually enough, trust me.
In most cases it's just food for Ichorid, it doesn't decreases your 'discardquality' by cuttin' just one of them.

[dlevsApiJ]

No, PImp is sooo good, especially when you can play a Study/Breakthrough the turn after it.. Never cut one..
And you dont need more combo consistenty (I cutted the combo, and have never missed it, so I think the whole combo isnt needed, but ok). 2 D Return with 1 Sage and 1 Zealot is enough, I think playing the 2nd Sage would be better if your really want...



Chalice should be run over Needle. Period. If your not a good enough Ichorid player to deal a Crypt here and there then you should put the deck down. The two biggest reasons to play CotV are to give you a chance against Extirpate and to be prepared for the mirror match. The mirror is all about LED -> DA's. If you dont have your own LED you need to stop your opponents from windmill slamming them on the table.

I Yeah, like Extirpate is a big problem :confused: ... when they Extirpate Ichorid you win with Moebas -> D Return -> FKZ(I dont run him)/Troll, and when they target your bridges, you return Ichorids each turn, and after they attacked, you Return a Troll. And putting your CotV @ 2 is not that easy with only 12 lands. I only play 1 CotV, (and then 4 Peedle) and 4 Gamble (2 main, 2 side), so finding the Crypt isnt a big problem (when you go land -> Gamble searching COTV you have 6 or 7 cards in hand (depends on play or draw),, so its not very risky.. )

And please say why I'm so stupid cause I cutted the Sage. Have you ever tested it ? Cause I haven't missed it..

Jip

[Brehn]

Ive been off this board for some time and I cant say I missed it at all. The board is so spammed with bad decklists that bring up issues we've already discussed in depth pages back.
(...)
Im really sad no ones running my current list.


Post your list. The last list you posted contained 3 Street Wraiths, you're not referring to that one, are you?

But you're absolutely right. Bad decklists everywhere, issues dicussed in depth etc etc. I'll start an attempt:
THOU SHALT NOT CUT PUTRID IMPS.

Maybe this will help, maybe not. I'm tired of arguing for him, any decklist that doesn't contain him as a four of is just plain suboptimal.

[thejack]

THOU SHALT NOT CUT PUTRID IMPS.

Maybe this will help, maybe not. I'm tired of arguing for him, any decklist that doesn't contain him as a four of is just plain suboptimal.

I must say that I don't agree with you on this. It depends on the way you play this deck and how well your meta is prepared. If you don't run it, then you are wrong, but depending on personal preferences you can choose between 3 or 4. Personally I run 3 and hardly ever cast them due to my way of playing the deck in legacy. (if I play it in extended I would like to run 6 of them)
The biggest problem in this thread right now is that the active people here play the deck differently (which one is best, well... I honestly don't know) We can discuss if you should run sage yes or no, careful study yes or no, the number of Pimp, etc. But we will never agree because we have a different approach on this really good deck.

[Brehn]

Tell me how running 3 Imps and hardly ever casting him works for you and your "way of playing the deck". How do you play around Crypts? What are your slowroll strategies besides "EOT discard"? How many other "discard outlets" do you play and don't you ever wish you'd play more?

In my opinion, the only "way of playing the deck" that justifies cutting an Imp is "Mulligan for Breakthrough and/or LED+DA". If this is your strategy, play Serum Powder. Horrible idea? So was Nether Shadow / Ashen Ghoul / Tireless Tribe / Akroma / Dakmor Salvage ... whoops, pretty much every new card suggested in the last few pages.

[spirit of the wretch]

THOU SHALT NOT CUT PUTRID IMPS.


You're so bloody right! QFMFT.
Anyway my performance this weekend with the deck:
Friday Night Legacy in Karlsruhe 3/0/0 1st
Sunday Legacy in Hassloch 5/1/0 2nd

My list now plays 2 Careful Studies maindeck, which really shine. I also cut the Leylines from the SB, as you don't really need them here.

But to get to some serious discussion:

1.) What's better: The third Thug or the third Study?
2.) Akroma should be good in the SB, especially against Affinity and Goblins, where you can't rely on having any Bridges in your GY to win with Zealot.
3.) 11 or 12 Lands and why?
4.) Do you need the Sage MB? I play him in the SB, as you only want him against Combo and Aggro.

Some input would be appreciatet.

[Brehn]

1) The third Thug. It seems illogical to have more turn 1 plays (4 BT, 4 PImp, 3 Study) than dredgers (4 GGT, 4 SImp, 2 Thug). You often keep a hand without one of those turn 1 plays, but you don't like to keep a hand without dredger.

2) If Warren Weirding totally annihilates the white splash in Goblins, it might be good. However, Akroma is way too risky to rely on against... well, any other deck.
On another note: What do you think about Simic Sky Swallower? I'd really like to see him against some nasty postboard matchups (e.g. Landstill with 4 Extirpates, 4 EE, Ac. Ruins, 4 Forces, 4 Swords. Or decks with Chrome Mox for a turn 2 Trinket Mage into EE/Crypt and turn 3 Tolaria West->Ruins). He's only 1 turn slower than Akroma, but he can't be removed by anything but Wrath, Deed for 7 or a threshed Enforcer.

3) I play 12 for more consistent Coliseums and first turn P.Imps.

4)

as you only want him against Combo and Aggro.
Aren't those like... 60% of a general meta? Sure, if you're playing in Hassloch where 6/8 Top8 decks are Control/AggroControl he might look superfluous.
You have to consider though, that if you don't rely on strange stuff like SB Akroma you usually can't afford to lose game 1 to aggro as their matchup improves significantly after boarding. Sage helps you a lot against aggro and combo.
Now look at your AggroControl/Control-matchups game 1. Have you ever lost a game 1 because you dredged Sage and thought "Damn, if this was card xy (which I don't play as a four of) I'd win, but now I'll lose"? To me this never happened. A singleton Sage doesn't weaken your AggroControl/Control-matchup. And game 2/3 you just board it out.

[spirit of the wretch]

1) The third Thug. It seems illogical to have more turn 1 plays (4 BT, 4 PImp, 3 Study) than dredgers (4 GGT, 4 SImp, 2 Thug). You often keep a hand without one of those turn 1 plays, but you don't like to keep a hand without dredger.

2) If Warren Weirding totally annihilates the white splash in Goblins, it might be good. However, Akroma is way too risky to rely on against... well, any other deck.
On another note: What do you think about Simic Sky Swallower? I'd really like to see him against some nasty postboard matchups (e.g. Landstill with 4 Extirpates, 4 EE, Ac. Ruins, 4 Forces, 4 Swords. Or decks with Chrome Mox for a turn 2 Trinket Mage into EE/Crypt and turn 3 Tolaria West->Ruins). He's only 1 turn slower than Akroma, but he can't be removed by anything but Wrath, Deed for 7 or a threshed Enforcer.

3) I play 12 for more consistent Coliseums and first turn P.Imps.

4)

Aren't those like... 60% of a general meta? Sure, if you're playing in Hassloch where 6/8 Top8 decks are Control/AggroControl he might look superfluous.
You have to consider though, that if you don't rely on strange stuff like SB Akroma you usually can't afford to lose game 1 to aggro as their matchup improves significantly after boarding. Sage helps you a lot against aggro and combo.
Now look at your AggroControl/Control-matchups game 1. Have you ever lost a game 1 because you dredged Sage and thought "Damn, if this was card xy (which I don't play as a four of) I'd win, but now I'll lose"? To me this never happened. A singleton Sage doesn't weaken your AggroControl/Control-matchup. And game 2/3 you just board it out.

Well you've made some pretty valid points here. Especially the argument for MB Sage makes sense, I guess I will consider putting him back in (although the Hassloch Meta really mainly is Control, Aggro Control and Prison.
There are no white-splashed Goblins in my Meta, but pretty much every other typ. Goblins splash blue (Stifle), Green (Survival, Deed) and almost always black (Auntie, Wort, Weirding, Perish). I personally feel, that the white splash is just inferior to those, but on the other hand, I don't play Goblins at all, so meh...
The problem with Skyswallower ist, that he isn't pretty good against Aggro (at least compared with Akroma), as he can't block and at the same time provides a slower clock. Against Landstill he obviously is better than the Angel. I still like Akroma better, as Aggro in general is a worse matchup. But if there's a lot of Landstill in your Meta, I would run the Swallower.
Could you post/send me your current list?

[Brehn]

Mainboard: See Page 41,
-1 Tarnished Citadel, +1 Undiscovered Paradise;
and meta-dependant: -1 Careful Study +1 Dread Return

It's been quite a time since I've tested the deck so I haven't built a Leyline-less sideboard yet. If I had to put a board together right now, I'd go:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Gamble
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
1 Simic Sky Swallower
This is absolutely untested, and I'm still not sure whether sideboard Gambles are good or bad. Gamble-less board would be:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
1 Simic Sky Swallower
1 anti-aggro slot (Akroma, Ancestor's Chosen, Blazing Archon, ...)

[savemysoul]

Red Akroma would probably be very good since it`s StP and chain proof

[Brehn]

Red Akroma is just strictly inferior to Simic Sky Swallower. Here we are again, discussing suboptimal cards.

[kabal]

Red Akroma is just strictly inferior to Simic Sky Swallower.

Not necessarily, Akroma can potential do 1-2 pts of additional damage per turn.

[Brehn]

Not necessarily, Akroma can potential do 1-2 pts of additional damage per turn.

You, sir, should stop posting here.


The board is so spammed with bad decklists that bring up issues we've already discussed in depth pages back.
(...)
There are some really ugly things going on in comparison.

etc etc

[hannes10001]

Hi, this is my current list:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
3 Deep Analysis
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
2 Cephalid Sage
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
3 Dread Retuirn
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid

SB
1 Flaring Pain
1 Ray of Revealation
1 Cabal therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Contagion
4 Chain of Vapor

I gotta go to school so I can't say more at the moment...

[chokin]

WTF is with Akroma? Cephalid helps more than she does. -1 Akroma, +1 Ichorid/Deep Analysis/PImp.

Akroma is crap unless she comes down turn 1. One Bridge plus a FKZ does much more damage. Assuming you sacrifice all nontokens to Dread.

[laststepdown]

I think if you're going to run one of Akroma, put it in the sideboard. STP exists in this format.

Edit: Welcome to the source!

[NQN]

If your Opponent plays StoP he will usually loose g1 to dredge because it`s Landstill/rock/NQG or whateva. Then Akroma just stays in the GY. If you play against RG Beats or Goblins(they have also swords, but atm goblins tend to Rb) Akroma is your MVP against Fanatics etc...

[Brehn]

THOU SHALT NOT CUT PUTRID IMPS.

I wrote this for a reason.
Also, 3 Ichorids. Also, Flaring Pain. Also, 2 Therapies only.


The board is so spammed with bad decklists that bring up issues we've already discussed in depth pages back.
(...)
There are some really ugly things going on in comparison.

This guy is so effing right.





If your Opponent plays StoP he will usually loose g1 to dredge because it`s Landstill/rock/NQG or whateva.
Or Vial Goblins/w. Or Deadguy Ale with mainboard Extirpate. Or Survival with a singleton Jailer/Loaming Shaman main. Or Landstill with Cunning Wish->Extirpate and Ruins/EE main. Or Rock with Deed, Deed, Witness->Deed etc.
Do not underestimate your opponents. With this deck you have some 70%-85%-matchups game 1. But you don't have any 100%-matchup.

Then Akroma just stays in the GY.
I like to play cards that have synergy with winning. Cards that are not dead in any matchup, you know?

If you play against RG Beats or Goblins(they have also swords, but atm goblins tend to Rb) Akroma is your MVP against Fanatics etc...
That's why some peeps play it in the sideboard. Where I play, RG Beats and non-white Goblins do not form 80% of the meta.

[Benie Bederios]

If your Opponent plays StoP he will usually loose g1 to dredge because it`s Landstill/rock/NQG or whateva. Then Akroma just stays in the GY. If you play against RG Beats or Goblins(they have also swords, but atm goblins tend to Rb) Akroma is your MVP against Fanatics etc...

I think a 20+/20+ Grave-troll does the same trick as Akroma, and its quite good in dredging too so I hear. Hope they can keep up with that, combined with your Ichorid's and Putrid Imps.

BB

[Brehn]

Because I'm tired of seeing crappy lists and strange questions, I'm actually writing something like a primer right now - featuring card choices, rules faq, boarding strategies etc. If anybody has some input for me, just write a PM. Let's get some serious discussion started. Not whether Red Akroma > SSS or SSS > Red Akroma.

[dlevsApiJ]

My only question, what card do you think I should cut for a single Sage (I gonna include 1 Sage back).

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
2 [US] Gamble
2 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [US] Gamble
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [VI] Emerald Charm
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [AL] Contagion
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [10E] Pithing Needle

And please dont reply with things that are replied to everyone at the moment (ok, you have almost everytime the right to say those things..). I know I like this build more than the normal one, and playing this one works out much better to me.
The only way to make room for it I can imagine (and also this doesnt sounds very good to me) cut a random SB card (?), than move the Darkblast to the side (it was main cause it Dredges (instead of 1 Thug), almost only because of that, so I didnt have to waste a SB slot for it)

I hope you have some tips, cause I don't want any card to be cut, but maybe I'm thinking to difficult (I hope so). Oh, and please give arguments (doh :rolleyes: ).

Jip

[ChillerKiller0815]

@dlevsApiJ

you relize that you don´t even play the combo win with flame-kin zealot. so why would you want to continue dredging with a sage????

[Brehn]

@dlevsApiJ

you relize that you don´t even play the combo win with flame-kin zealot. so why would you want to continue dredging with a sage????

duh


And please dont reply with things that are replied to everyone at the moment (ok, you have almost everytime the right to say those things..).

Thank you :-)



I hope you have some tips, cause I don't want any card to be cut, but maybe I'm thinking to difficult (I hope so). Oh, and please give arguments (doh :rolleyes: ).


Sure. Your list is not very conventional, but it doesn't suck. I realize you want to play with 11 dredgers (which I'm also a fan of), also, when you're adding a Sage you probably don't want to cut a Dread Return, so that leaves the following expendible cards:

3 Deep Analysis
2 Careful Study
2 Gamble

At the first sight, I'd say: Cut a Deep Analysis. My current list also runs a 2/2-configuration of DA/Study and it works quite well for me.

Then I've just realized that I never played a list that featured both Careful Study and Gamble. There's the obvious problem that they kind of fight for the same slots, but also the strategies behind those two cards are a little contradictory in my opinion. Careful Study is played to increase the speed of the deck, Gamble is in here to make it more consistant at the price of speed. Your current list - without Sage - is slower than standard lists, and now you want to make it faster by adding him, so it might be the right choice to cut a Gamble.
This leaves only one Gamble in the maindeck and I can already see people screaming "this is just random, cut it for the 3rd Study". However, this is not necessary, especially if you can't fit additional Gambles in your board. I see that you're also testing Gambles in the board -- how have they worked for you? -- and 3 Gambles after boarding > 2 Gambles after boarding.

Another question: Has Echoing Truth been useful? I really like the toolbox-ish way you've built your sideboard, but I can't see you casting that one ever.

[dlevsApiJ]

@ ChillerKiller0815

Ehmm,, maybe cause when I return Sage, I can Therapy more, make more tokens, return next turn more Ichorid, get more Moebas for Returning a Troll? When you play the FKZ the only difference is you winn the same turn,, and I also winn many times the same turn cause they usually scoop :smile:


I Havent tested this list much *I'm very bussy last time*, sunday I play a tourney with it, and I will post my "testing" with this list..
I used the Truth one time against multiple Leylines, that was pretty cool :smile: , but yeah, you wont see multiple Leylines many times, and when you see it, you dont have many change that you have Gamble + 2 lands..

I dont feel fine with cutting a Gamble, I want to have 4 after SBing. The reason of playing 2/2 main/side, is that I only had 2 slots main and 2 slots sb (I was playing them al side, but then I added the Emerald Charm and the Echoing Truth, so I needed to remove 2 to the main, but because I now need more space main, maybe I can put 1 Gamble to the side (instead of Emerald Charm/Echoing Truth), and then add Sage, and maybe I can put the last Gamble to the side, in the place of the last of the 2 (charm/truth), and then add the 3rd Study). Think I gonna test that, cause Charm and Truth are both not really needed.
The 2 Studys are Breakthrough 5 and 6.

O, and the Gambles are great to my! But not vert good before boarding, they are good for finding answerss, and because I still play 3 Chain and 5 Cotv/Peedle, I doesnt always need to use the Gamble to find an answer. It's just that your hand are much easier fast + answer.

(sorry for bad english, but i had to typ this really fast, want to go sleep now, but wanted to write this :tongue: , also if someone isnt described good enough, please say it, then I do it again tomorrow :wink: )

Jip


EDIT: ow, and 3 DA looks the best to me, the 3rd one makes so much difference with finding one when you go insane with a LED.

[TheRock]

The main reason to consider the Echoing Truth, IMHO, is for removing multiple Leylines which this deck practically has no other answer too (well it does, but the odds of success aren't too high). The question to ask might be this: which is more worrisome - Survival or 2 Leylines at once? You can't side in 1-2 Gambles AND 3 Chain AND 3 other enchantment destroyers/bouncers very easily. Of course, if you're happy with the number of slots you devote to it and don't mind having one sit in the SB, then that's a separate issue.

My biggest concern has been getting something in the way of Extirpate. When I was testing the Gamble approach, I was trying one Unmask just to throw something else at it. As of now I'm still using it with that approach because I just haven't missed the 2nd Grudge at all, but is it that wise of a move?

[kabal]

Played the below at a 24 person tournament last night and split for 1st.

1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Careful Study
3 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void

1: 2 - 0 Affinity
2: 2 - 0 Affinity
3: 2 - 1 Belcher
4: Draw into Top 8
5: 2 - 1 Scepter Chant
6: 2 - 1 Mono Blue Erayo Bauble Jank
7: Split with Goblins

[Brehn]

1: 2 - 0 Affinity
2: 2 - 0 Affinity
3: 2 - 1 Belcher


:eek:

3-0 against 3 bad to horrible matchups is pretty nice... Were Leylines involved in the matches vs Affinity and Chalices in the matches vs Belcher?

[dlevsApiJ]

The main reason to consider the Echoing Truth, IMHO, is for removing multiple Leylines which this deck practically has no other answer too (well it does, but the odds of success aren't too high). The question to ask might be this: which is more worrisome - Survival or 2 Leylines at once? You can't side in 1-2 Gambles AND 3 Chain AND 3 other enchantment destroyers/bouncers very easily. Of course, if you're happy with the number of slots you devote to it and don't mind having one sit in the SB, then that's a separate issue.

My biggest concern has been getting something in the way of Extirpate. When I was testing the Gamble approach, I was trying one Unmask just to throw something else at it. As of now I'm still using it with that approach because I just haven't missed the 2nd Grudge at all, but is it that wise of a move?

Siding isnt always that nice, most of the time you SB out "random". I always board out things as 1 DA, 1 LED, 1 Breakthrough, 1 Study (maybe 2 now, cause I gonna play 1 more), 1 Sage, Darkblast etc. And when I really need more cards to board in, I take more Study/Breakthrough, BUT NEVER AN IMP! (that cards is soo good against a lot of hate, it can let you discard, And play answers (cause when you dont have the imp, and you play your answers on their hate, you dont have 8 cards in your hand for the EOT discard..)). But is there someone who knows what should be the best to board out in a special order?

I havent had many problems with Pate, when they choose Bridge you go with Ichorid + Moeba -> Return -> Troll.. and when they choose Ichorid, you go Moeba -> Return Troll + many tokens.. Only problem is when you only have 1 Dredger at the begin, and they Pate him..

Jip

EDIT, thinking of this SB:

4 Gamble
3 Peedle
1 Cotv
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Contagion
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Slot, what should be the best? 4th Chain, 4th Peedle, E Truth, Charm or maybe Unmask?

I cant choose :P .. Of cource it depend on the meta, but what if you don't know the meta?

[BreathWeapon]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

If you scoop to a crypt, seriously, play another deck. Look at this comment:

He's right. This deck is way too hard to play for you.

Scooping to crypt has nothing to do with play skill, you can either play thru' it or you can't depending on your first couple of Dredges. Sometimes the best way to deal with hate is to just scoop to it in order to save time and go to the next game. I'd rather Careful Study + LED and try to go off immediately than accept that crypt is going to resolve and try to play around it. Not that the two cards are mutually exclusive, but Careful Study is the card that lets you race instead of react in this instance.

It's also entirely possible to take a modular approach, like SBing Pimps and Tribes for crypts or Nether Shadows for the DDD plan.

[Brehn]

Sure, sometimes you lose to just one Crypt. However, you said:


The best way to deal with Tormod's Crypt is usually to scoop to it and go to game 3 on the play.

This is where the playskill and the quality of the decklist comes in. A good player with a good list doesn't scoop to a Crypt that often. Putrid Imp is Pithing Needle/Chalice of the Void number 5-8 in this case.


but Careful Study is the card that lets you race instead of react in this instance.
A turn one Crypt can't be raced unless you draw TEH NUTS. However, it can be played around.

[BreathWeapon]

Sure, sometimes you lose to just one Crypt. However, you said:



This is where the playskill and the quality of the decklist comes in. A good player with a good list doesn't scoop to a Crypt that often. Putrid Imp is Pithing Needle/Chalice of the Void number 5-8 in this case.


A turn one Crypt can't be raced unless you draw TEH NUTS. However, it can be played around.

I don't have a win>loss percentage on the draw against a resolved Crypt from Threshold or Goblins. If I did, or any one else does, Ichorid would be overruning the format.

I said scoop and go to game three, game three is where Careful Study > Putrid Imp for racing. You don't need the nuts to win, you just need to dredge up a Cabal Therapy. If you're paranoid about losing game two or you're obsessed about winning it, just board in 8 Pimp/TTribe (I personally think TTribe is better than Pithing Needle since Pithing Needle is worthless if the opponent doesn't draw it) for LED and Deep Analysis and slow roll ala Extended. You don't really have to worry about Crypt in game one, so Pimp is sub-optimal there and in game three using him is sort of defeatist. I look at the creature outlets as more functional versions of Pithing Needle for the worst case scenarios and not default MD choices. You beat anything with Islands game one by DDD, you beat everything else by LED, draw or a combination of the three, Pimp isn't critical to either.

[Brehn]

I don't have a win>loss percentage on the draw against a resolved Crypt from Threshold or Goblins. If I did, or any one else does, Ichorid would be overruning the format.

I didn't claim that I did. I didn't claim that any list was able to do. However, playing Imps improves the percentages.


I said scoop and go to game three, game three is where Careful Study > Putrid Imp for racing.
Careful Study > Putrid Imp for racing.
Putrid Imp > Careful Study for slowrolling.
Turn 1 Crypts can hardly be raced. See:


You don't need the nuts to win, you just need to dredge up a Cabal Therapy.
How does that work against a turn 1 Crypt? That's what we were talking about, right?
(FYI: "Land, LED, Study/Breakthrough/DA, Dredger" is what I call "TEH NUTS". You increase the chances of having this by playing 4 Studies and 3 DA, but it's still improbable and you can't mulligan for it)


I personally think TTribe is better than Pithing Needle since Pithing Needle is worthless if the opponent doesn't draw it
...
...
...I won't comment on that....


You don't really have to worry about Crypt in game one, so Pimp is sub-optimal there
P.Imp has other uses, too. Let's look at one of your old posts:

Pimp is kind of overrated, he's slow and a single 2/2 flier isn't better than multiple 1/1 hasted creatures once the deck is in motion.
You're right, but how do you get the deck to move? "Land Imp Go" is a pretty sick start, almost always better than "DDD" aka EOT discard (it took me some minutes to figure out the meaning of DDD....).


Alright, let's have a look at some of your contradictions:


Pimp doesn't solve the Tormod's Crypt problem either, once Tormod's Crypt resolves it just turns into X Time Walks as Pimp tries to play around it. The best way to deal with Tormod's Crypt is usually to scoop to it and go to game 3 on the play.
"You lose to a resolved Crypt whether or not you play P.Imp"


If you're paranoid about losing game two or you're obsessed about winning it, just board in 8 Pimp/TTribe (I personally think TTribe is better than Pithing Needle since Pithing Needle is worthless if the opponent doesn't draw it) for LED and Deep Analysis and slow roll ala Extended.
"You increase your chances of winning through Crypt by boarding in 8 Putrid Imps"

No further comment needed.

[BreathWeapon]

You're taking the arguments out of context, if you are on the play game 3, then you win by Careful Study + Lion's Eye Diamond if you either A) goldfish on him or B) discard his Tormod's Crypt. Obviously you can't race Tormod's Crypt if your opponent resolves it before you can play Careful Study, but that's a completely moot point, because you don't play Careful Study to react to it.

You don't need Pimp if DDD is sufficient, people who choose to play, cast Pimp and then get it Forced are 3 turns behind people who choose to draw.

I don't count on Imp/Tribe being able to defeat Crypt, that doesn't mean that I don't recognize that having a Imp/Tribe against a Crypt is better than not having one. If I didn't, then I wouldn't play with the card at all. The difference is I don't MD what I consider to be a sub-optimal card when the opponent doesn't have Crypt in his deck game 1, and I'd rather race or disrupt the opponent before he can play Crypt than board in slow/dead cards game 3.

I never said Pimp sucked, I just said he's overrated.

[Bane of the Living]

Tell me how running 3 Imps and hardly ever casting him works for you and your "way of playing the deck". How do you play around Crypts? What are your slowroll strategies besides "EOT discard"? How many other "discard outlets" do you play and don't you ever wish you'd play more?

In my opinion, the only "way of playing the deck" that justifies cutting an Imp is "Mulligan for Breakthrough and/or LED+DA". If this is your strategy, play Serum Powder. Horrible idea? So was Nether Shadow / Ashen Ghoul / Tireless Tribe / Akroma / Dakmor Salvage ... whoops, pretty much every new card suggested in the last few pages.

The are alot of good questions and sadly old debates so heres my weekly input.

First off pimp is amazing but he's not as powered as most of the deck. He's vulnerable and Ichorid wants to be immune to all methods of control. Goyf Sligh is picking up love and has 30 ways to deal with him. Pithing Needle becomes an issue even. So most of the time pimp becomes :b: discard your hand.

Here are some more issues I have with him, he costs mana. Black mana, not blue. This is a blue combo deck, I dont know if most people dont notice this or what. Cephalid Coliseum is one of the very best combo engines because its uncounterable, blue is high priority over black. Your low land count demands more attention to the blue spells you cast. Chain of Vapor, blue. Dont get me wrong you can cast Pimp off 8 rainbow/U/B lands but thats eight ways to cast him.. 8.

Is that enough for you to play 2 instead of 4?

My last posted list is my current, the Street Wraith list. He's always better than most of what you want to push into the deck. He's free. Not :b:

He speeds up the deck.

The key to beating pretty much any deck is Cabal Therapy -> quick win. Aside from control of course. Who has an answer for your Putrid Imp. Street Wraith is uncounterable dredging. Aka Amazing.

Its also the best card to sideboard out for your Leylines or anti hate. Saving your Dread Return combo or engine pieces to play with.

Slow rolling usually does include going to discard but if you have cards to play while holding back then thats how you should go for it. For example, if you have 2 lands hardcast things like Thugs and Meobas and hit your opponent with 3-4 therapys before trying to even drop your LED's or Breakthroughs.

Mulligans also help. You can win turn one going down to 4 cards if you Trust the Heart of the cards! J/k

[LordEvilTeaCup]

@Bane: I notice in your list you have 3 Dread Returns. Couldn't you go down to 2 DR for the 4th Wraith?

[Brehn]

if you are on the play game 3, then you win by Careful Study + Lion's Eye Diamond if you either A) goldfish on him or B) discard his Tormod's Crypt.
Do you stack your deck or how come you always have LED?

In case you still don't get it: It makes no sense arguing "Crypts are raced with Study + LED". Even with 4 Studies, 4 Breakthroughs and 4 LEDs this is way too improbable to rely on. You don't see people arguing in the T.E.S. thread "Counterbalance is played around by a Chant-protected Turn 1 Kill", do you?


This is now directed at both BreathWeapon and Bane of the Living: Do you actually take mulligans?
Sometimes you end up with 6, 5 or 4 cards because the deck screws you. "Land, Dredger, blank, blank, blank". If one of the blanks is P.Imp, the hand is keepable. If it's Nether Shadow or Street Wraith you go to 4. I think I said it earlier: Playing cards like Nether Shadow or Street Wraith speeds up the deck while sacrificing consistency.
"DDD" or "EOT Discard" doesn't work after mulliganing. It's a double/triple/quadruple Time Walk.


So most of the time pimp becomes :b: discard your hand.
Wrong. :b:, Discard your hand: Target opponent discards a removal spell or counter of his or her choice. Street Wraith is Pay 2 life: If the engine is already running, dredge 6. Otherwise, draw Flame-Kin Zealot or some other crap. Conclusion: Imp > Wraith.

This is a blue combo deck, I dont know if most people dont notice this or what.
UGH. Strongly disagree.
- Has a hard time beating combo. Check.
- Wins against control. Check.
- Wins in the "Combat Damage Step" and tries to do so fast. Check.
- Doesn't like: StoP, Deed, Wrath. Check.
Ichorid is a fast aggro deck with synergistic cards. Just like Goblins. Only that it's faster, recovers more easily after mass removal and dies to some different hate.


Its also the best card to sideboard out for your Leylines or anti hate. Saving your Dread Return combo or engine pieces to play with.
Sorry, but that sounds a lot like: "I play Wraith because I don't know how to sideboard with other lists." If I board out 4 P.Imps (or whatever I play in your SW-slot) with my list, it's exactly the same.

[BreathWeapon]

Do you stack your deck or how come you always have LED?

In case you still don't get it: It makes no sense arguing "Crypts are raced with Study + LED". Even with 4 Studies, 4 Breakthroughs and 4 LEDs this is way too improbable to rely on. You don't see people arguing in the T.E.S. thread "Counterbalance is played around by a Chant-protected Turn 1 Kill", do you?


This is now directed at both BreathWeapon and Bane of the Living: Do you actually take mulligans?
Sometimes you end up with 6, 5 or 4 cards because the deck screws you. "Land, Dredger, blank, blank, blank". If one of the blanks is P.Imp, the hand is keepable. If it's Nether Shadow or Street Wraith you go to 4. I think I said it earlier: Playing cards like Nether Shadow or Street Wraith speeds up the deck while sacrificing consistency.
"DDD" or "EOT Discard" doesn't work after mulliganing. It's a double/triple/quadruple Time Walk.


Wrong. :b:, Discard your hand: Target opponent discards a removal spell or counter of his or her choice. Street Wraith is Pay 2 life: If the engine is already running, dredge 6. Otherwise, draw Flame-Kin Zealot or some other crap. Conclusion: Imp > Wraith.

UGH. Strongly disagree.
- Has a hard time beating combo. Check.
- Wins against control. Check.
- Wins in the "Combat Damage Step" and tries to do so fast. Check.
- Doesn't like: StoP, Deed, Wrath. Check.
Ichorid is a fast aggro deck with synergistic cards. Just like Goblins. Only that it's faster, recovers more easily after mass removal and dies to some different hate.


Sorry, but that sounds a lot like: "I play Wraith because I don't know how to sideboard with other lists." If I board out 4 P.Imps (or whatever I play in your SW-slot) with my list, it's exactly the same.

You're arguing between two extremes, I could ask you if your opponent stacks Tormod's Crypt on top of his deck and whether or not you stack Putrid Imp on top of yours, I wont argue that I aggressively mulligan for Lion's Eye Diamond tho'. I've even tried going as far as boarding in Serum Powder just to increase my odds of finding it.

"Wrong. :b:, Discard your hand: Target opponent discards a removal spell or counter of his or her choice."

This is why Putrid Imp is bad, by casting Putrid Imp your opponent gets to Force of Will/Daze it and set you back 2 turns. Dredge isn't suppose to cast spells on its first turns against Islands, it's suppose to DDD and then resolve spells after Cabal Therapy clears the way and Deep Analysis is in position. Both of us probably mulligan less than you do, because we better understand the necessary hand strengths for defeating Islands.

Dredge is a LED combo deck that circumvents disruption, if you look at the original build of Dredge in this format, the deck was literally 4 Serum Powder, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Cephalid Coliseum, 4 Deep Analysis and the dredge package. It went off via LED against non-Islands and it DDDed against Islands and still had overwhelming success game 1.

You're reasoning for Dredge not being a combo deck is atrocious, let's compare the same reasoning to accepted combo decks.

1) Has a hard time beating combo

So does R/g Belcher, in fact both R/g Belcher and Dredge are not going to win against Storm or Cephalid Illusionist more than lose, because Orim's Chant and Force of Will are trump cards in the match.

2) Wins against control

And that is the reason people use Ichorid, it has a winning percentage against control, unlike Storm and R/g Belcher, while still being able to use LED to defeat the rest of the decks in the format.

3) Wins in the combat damage step, and it tries to do so fast.

So do Empty the Warrens and Sutured Ghoul

4) Doesn't like removal

And Storm doesn't like counters, every deck has an answer available to it, just because that answer is creature removal (which incidentally answers Cephalid Illusionist just as well) doesn't mean it's an aggro deck. Dredge is not "like Goblins," their respective match ups aren't the same, and their mechanics are entirely different.

If you want to obsess about Tormod's Crypts, just play the Extended version of the deck. You don't have to rely on LED/Coliseum/DA for speed if you don't want to, and it's turbo charged in this format with Brainstorm and Ashen Ghouls. There are a lot of viable configurations for Dredge, you just have to be willing to put in the time to explore all of the different configurations until you find an amalgamation that you like more than the others. There are about half a dozen viable cards any one configuration isn't using at any given time.

[dlevsApiJ]

Today I played a 19-man tournament with this build:

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
4 [5E] City of Brass

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [TOR] Cephalid Sage

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
3 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [RAV] Darkblast

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [US] Gamble
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [AL] Contagion
SB: 1 [TOR] Cephalid Sage (want to play another card in this slot, it was more cause i didnt know which card I should play as 15th SB card)

I became 9th (3-2-0)


My matchups:

Round 1: Meathooks,
I hate this matchup, they counter your PImp/LED/Study/Breakthrough.. so have have to go EOT discard,, but they can have a fast kill, with more than 1 creature (of it only was 1 creature (without flying) it was easy to block it each turn (like Goyf in *****),, also 2 times an STP on Ichorid isnt very nice..

Round 2: Bye...

Round 3: Deathguy Rock ;Downpearing (first a bye,, and now a downpearing :eek: )

First game was easy,, second game I boarded nothing (he is a friend of me, and I knew he only played Extirpate), so my deck was still very fast.. And it worked,, I has a hand with a Study, Breakthrough, LED, DA, 2 land and a random.. I was on the play,, and after I drawed 3 card in my turn (study + draw phase) I had a second Study, a PImp, but still no Dredgers.. Then turn 2, I got my dredgers,, and I went very fast,, dont know how it exactly went.. But both my Ichorid and Bridge became Extirpated,, but I still wonn woth a big fat Grave Troll (he had STP,, but I had Therapy :))

Round 4: Again Meathooks

Wtf: both games turn 4/5/6 win (yeah,, he,, not I)?!? Stupid fast decks with many big creatures who counter the cards that will let you go fast...


Round 5: Faery Stompy (or 10 kiklo inktvip,, that was the name on his decklist :tongue: )

Game 1: this was very funny, he went turn 1: Sea Drake, turn 2: Sea Drake,, and yeah why not,, turn 3: Sea Drake,, this was to hard for me..

Game 2+3: I used both games 5/6 Therapys (played some from my hand,, and Flashbacked both games all of them..) I liked these 2 games very,, cause my deck worked as it has to work.. game 2: I went turn 2 Therapy -> FOW and Needle -> Crypt.. and game 3: Turn 1 -> Therapy -> FOW and COTv on 0.. Both of them I also casted Some PImps and Studys.. They were nice for me :)


SO FUCK THE SLIVERS!! These 2 Sliver decks only were the only 2 on the Tourney...


So now I want to know,, after playing 4 times against Slivers,, and lost 3 times,, is this bad luck from my side? Or is this really a card matchup? And is there soms SB card (for in my last SB-slot :tongue: ),, that can improve it.
I was thinking of playing (not only for this Matchup,, but cause I need a 15th SB card..) Eternal Witness (return any card you need when your grave is very full)/Ancestor's Chosen (wooow,, lifes!!, he gives you a few turn against Flying slivers :tongue: , but also against stupid Burn.decks etc) ?

O, and most of the time the deck became to slow after SBing,, cause I Sb'ed in 7-10 (yeah,, 1 time I boarded 10 cards in!!, against Faery Stompy,, 4 Gamble, 2 Peedle, 1 Cotv, 1 Ray of R (I expected Propaganda,, and yeah,, he played them), 1 Ancient Grudge, 1 Chain), and Sided out much draw cards,, so of course I became much slower,, but what would be another possibility,, without losing to all kind of hate ? what should be the best to board out? I really dont know...

O, and I didnt used a single Gamble on the whole tourney ! :tongue:


Jip

[kabal]

Today I played a 19-man tournament with this build:

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [TOR] Cephalid Sage


No Flame-Kin Zealot?? Is this really the right move?

[Brehn]

This is why Putrid Imp is bad, by casting Putrid Imp your opponent gets to Force of Will/Daze it and set you back 2 turns. Dredge isn't suppose to cast spells on its first turns against Islands, it's suppose to DDD and then resolve spells after Cabal Therapy clears the way and Deep Analysis is in position. Both of us probably mulligan less than you do, because we better understand the necessary hand strengths for defeating Islands.

Once again: DDD doesn't work after taking a mulligan.
If you have a dredger in your opening seven, ok. "Thug, 6 blanks" is still a keepable hand against "Islands". What if you don't? "Land, Imp, discard Dredger" is a very strong start for a <7-cards-hand. If the Imp doesn't get forced (Daze is also possible, but less probable, because I always choose to play) it's equivalent to "DDD" with an additional 2/2 flying beater. Playing Nether Shadow or Street Wraith you won't get this option.

If you understand "the necessary hand strengths for defeating Islands" better, please explain them to me. Assuming you're on the draw against "Islands" and your first hand was 4 Moeba, 1 FKZ, 1 Sage, 1 DA, so you sent it back. What are your criteria for keeping a hand of less than 7 cards?

And ok, let's not argue about combo/aggro anymore. I believe that "combo" is misleading and players tend to play it like a combo deck - "I'm going off now" - which is wrong. Usually there is no "going off" with Ichorid, especially against Control. It's just "I put creatures (with alternative casting costs) into play and swing". That sounds a lot like aggro.

[spirit of the wretch]

No Flame-Kin Zealot?? Is this really the right move?

No it isn't. I play the same list as you (with a different SB) and I consider it pretty close to optimal. Brehm's comments convinced me to put the Sage back in the MB (also: bigger chance for 1st turn kills = cool shit ;). The list is both broken and consistant and I wouldn't advise running another list.

[BreathWeapon]

Once again: DDD doesn't work after taking a mulligan.
If you have a dredger in your opening seven, ok. "Thug, 6 blanks" is still a keepable hand against "Islands". What if you don't? "Land, Imp, discard Dredger" is a very strong start for a <7-cards-hand. If the Imp doesn't get forced (Daze is also possible, but less probable, because I always choose to play) it's equivalent to "DDD" with an additional 2/2 flying beater. Playing Nether Shadow or Street Wraith you won't get this option.

If you understand "the necessary hand strengths for defeating Islands" better, please explain them to me. Assuming you're on the draw against "Islands" and your first hand was 4 Moeba, 1 FKZ, 1 Sage, 1 DA, so you sent it back. What are your criteria for keeping a hand of less than 7 cards?

And ok, let's not argue about combo/aggro anymore. I believe that "combo" is misleading and players tend to play it like a combo deck - "I'm going off now" - which is wrong. Usually there is no "going off" with Ichorid, especially against Control. It's just "I put creatures (with alternative casting costs) into play and swing". That sounds a lot like aggro.

You have to consider the risk vs reward of Putrid Imp=DDD + a free dredge + a 2/2 Flier, is that enough to risk an appr. 40% chance of -2 Time Walks on the play or appr. 80% chance of -1 Time Walk on the draw? If a 7 card hand with a Dredger is keepable against an Island, and the deck has a faster goldfish rate on the draw, then what's the purpose of accepting that risk in the first place?

Street Wraith, Nether Shadow or even Ashen Ghoul are there to make the deck stronger in its default settings, DDD and Lion's Eye Diamond + Cephalid Coliseum with Threshold. All of the other cards are there to increase the speed of the deck against aggro/combo game 1, while Breakthrough and Careful Study are there to increase the number of LED combinations game 3. Putrid Imp, and to a limited extent Tireless Tribe, don't make sense unless your default setting is to either play or deal with Tormod's Crypt. Choosing to play in a format with Force of Will is pointless, because DDD is your best approach to that match up. The only reason you'd choose to play is combo, but you can never be certain whether or not your playing against combo, the likely hood that you are playing against combo is less than the likely hood that you are playing against Force of Will, and there's no guarantee that you'll draw Cabal Therapy, name the right target and slow them down enough to the point where losing the speed of drawing makes up for it either.

Criteria for 6 card hands vary, if you're on the draw, then you can keep a 6 card hand with Golgari Grave Troll against control as a general rule. Otherwise I look for Lion's Eye Diamond + Dredger or Land + Breakthrough/Careful Study + Dredger or Land + 2xCareful Study, Careful Study + Breakthrough or possibly Land + Breakthrough, Careful Study if I have to gamble between that and 5 cards. Those are the border line conditions for keeping a 6 card hand, it usually doesn't come down to that.

[dlevsApiJ]

No Flame-Kin Zealot?? Is this really the right move?

Why would you play it? Give me I reason? Against combo? you have Therapys... Therapy their hand away and then Return a Troll is also good enough... FKZ is an overkill, and more a card that makes the deck cool to play.. I like optimal cards more :) . So I cutted him for 1 more Study... Playing 2 Sages would be better.. Cause Sage always works when you have 3creatures in play.. For the FKZ you need a few bridges,, he is to Bridge dependend....

Jip


O, and is there someone who can help me woth my SBing problem (taking out 7-10 cards is soo hard for the speed of the deck :frown: )

[Bovinious]

@ removal of FKZ: I have been considering doing this myself, and I think i will try it out because like dlevsApiJ stated, Therapying Combo then having a HUGE troll is enough to win, since combo does not pack STP and such, we really risk nothing by waiting a turn to "win". Obviously playign Sage is still smart, since he can find you Therapys and all sorts of other gas.

[Muradin]

I think the whole discussion about Pimp, Careful Study and all the other suggested choices like not running FKZ or Nether Shadow doesn't have much to do with finding the optimal list in general. It is more a discussion about 2 different ways of playing this deck and the suggested cards just support those strategies.
Some people in here rather play the deck rather like: "Either I go crazy with LED or I simply take the eot discard route."
This strategy is supported very well by playing Nether shadow/Street Wraith to strengthen the quality of your dredges in general. This makes the eot discard mode much more viable. You don't necessarily want to do anything but LED + Breakthrough/Coliseum on your first turn. If your hand doesn't have the possibilities for a broken start you play safe against counters and go for your discard step. This may be reasonable because starts with Putrid Imp but without draw don't outclass the eot discard mode by much, especially if your list is tuned to fit this play style.
The other group is the people who want to make sure they play something on their first turn, even without LED. Therefore Careful Study, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe and Gamble might be viable options to achieve that. One of the advantages of this play style is that you have a minimal number of more keep able 7 card hands if you don't know what you are playing against. I never feel safe keeping a 7 cards hand with a dredger against an unknown opponent. But the biggest strength of those lists is their higher resiliency to mulligans. As soon as you have to mulligan the eot discard mode becomes worse and worse every time you do so. By playing Careful Study/Pimp you still have a good chance to get at least a dredger/land/discard outlet in your 6 or 5 cards hand.
Concerning the question what is the right number for Sage/Zealot/Dread Returns I think there are only 2 ways to go. One is running the full package with 3 Dread Returns (needed for consistency of dredging here)/1 FKZ/1-2 Sage. The Other possibility is running a decimated package like 2 Dread Returns with only Trolls as target to free up slots for more Careful Study/Pimp.
So in the eot discard build I think that the full Dread Returns package should be included and for the other builds just 2 Dread Returns should be fine.
I've played in several tournaments with each of the builds and in general both work. At the moment I prefer the Study+ Pimp build but I am still trying out a lot. Actually with Careful Study and Pimp the deck plays a lot like Extended Ichorid whereas the other one is rather like Vintage Ichorid without Bazaar but with LED.

[Brehn]

You have to consider the risk vs reward of Putrid Imp=DDD + a free dredge + a 2/2 Flier, is that enough to risk an appr. 40% chance of -2 Time Walks on the play or appr. 80% chance of -1 Time Walk on the draw? If a 7 card hand with a Dredger is keepable against an Island, and the deck has a faster goldfish rate on the draw, then what's the purpose of accepting that risk in the first place?

The purpose is: Mulligans. My criteria for mulliganed hands are approximately the same as yours:


if you're on the draw, then you can keep a 6 card hand with Golgari Grave Troll against control as a general rule. Otherwise I look for Lion's Eye Diamond + Dredger or Land + Breakthrough/Careful Study + Dredger or Land + 2xCareful Study, Careful Study + Breakthrough or possibly Land + Breakthrough, Careful Study if I have to gamble between that and 5 cards. Those are the border line conditions for keeping a 6 card hand, it usually doesn't come down to that.

plus the "Land+P.Imp+Dredger"-Hand I can keep. Note:
- Lion's Eye Diamond + Dredger (keepable in your opinion) is just as good as Land + Putrid Imp + Dredger. It's the same speed and both of them can be double/triple-time walked with Force of Will.
- Land+Breakthrough+Dredger (keepable in your opinion) is slightly better because you "dredge" an additional 4, but otherwise it's the same. FoW > this hand.
- Land+Careful Study+Dredger (keepable in your opinion) might be slightly better or slightly worse. But still, FoW > this hand.

Also note: If any of your described hands has only 1 dredger in it and your first dredge is unlucky, you're stuck with a dredger in your hand and useless cards in your graveyard --> you lose. If P.Imp is unanswered (it's not that improbable, how many control decks play more than four cc1 removal spells?) you're not stuck, you just discard your dredger again.


Choosing to play in a format with Force of Will is pointless, because DDD is your best approach to that match up.

I also disagree here. This statement is absolutely correct --- if you don't take mulligans. If you have to, "LED,Dredger", "Land,Study,Dredger", "Land,BT,Dredger" and with my list also "Land,Imp,Dredger" - all of which are keepable hands according to you - are not only timewalk-able by Force but also by Daze. The Threshold player doesn't always draw a FoW in his opening 7. By choosing to draw you essentially let him play a deck with 8 FoWs.


I can see where this discussion is going: You're points against Putrid Imp vs Control are all valid as long as you don't take mulligans into account. P.Imp increases the number of keepable 6-cards-, 5-cards- and 4-cards-hands. If you're on the play, the opponent has 4 cards in his deck to stop him, but the same is true for LED, Study and Breakthrough. If not countered by Force, :b: : Discard your hand is absolutely not bad considering that you've taken mulligans. Also, the opponent doesn't always start with a cc1 removal spell in his hand.

Now let's look at the aggro matchup: Sure you'd like to draw Land+Breakthrough, LED+Deep Analysis or something broken like that. But "Land, Imp, Dredger" is still a keepable 7-card hand, and this 7-card hand gets pretty fast if there's a second land for Coliseum activations or Deep Analysis flashbacks. Again, Putrid Imp increases the number of hands you don't have to send back.

Nether Shadow and Street Wraith are sick if the engine is running, but first ensure you're able to start it in the first place. Mulligans =/= engine.

[Xero]

Why would you play it? Give me I reason? Against combo? you have Therapys... Therapy their hand away and then Return a Troll is also good enough... FKZ is an overkill, and more a card that makes the deck cool to play.. I like optimal cards more :) . So I cutted him for 1 more Study... Playing 2 Sages would be better.. Cause Sage always works when you have 3creatures in play.. For the FKZ you need a few bridges,, he is to Bridge dependend....

And what happens when your opponent topdecks the win? Combo decks have Ill-Gotten Gains, and draw 4s that let them recover from Therapy. There's also Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Pyroclasm, Elephant Grass, Moat etc. FKZ speeds up the deck by a full turn, it's not "overkill."

[romain7]

FKZ is such a valuable card in this deck. Its ability to race combo makes it a must-have. That is not the only reason for not removing it. All of the cards that were listed are found in control and can easily lead to you scooping once they do hit the board. The ability to be able to attack one turn ahead of time leaves your opponent unprepared at times, unable to answer at sorcery speed, and in certain instances allows you to swing and win in the nick of time against other aggro decks, while their goblins are tapped out.

[kabal]

And what happens when your opponent topdecks the win? Combo decks have Ill-Gotten Gains, and draw 4s that let them recover from Therapy. There's also Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Pyroclasm, Elephant Grass, Moat etc. FKZ speeds up the deck by a full turn, it's not "overkill."

QFT

[dlevsApiJ]

And what happens when your opponent topdecks the win? Combo decks have Ill-Gotten Gains, and draw 4s that let them recover from Therapy. There's also Explosives, Pernicious Deed, Pyroclasm, Elephant Grass, Moat etc. FKZ speeds up the deck by a full turn, it's not "overkill."

When the combo player doesnt haver other cards in hand,, Bargain/Ill-Gotten Gains wont work,, cause they never have enough mana...

Explosives + Deed + Pyroclasm dont kill your Troll (fast enough),, and also against your tokens they arent very good (someone said that), cause most of the time your Ichorids come back and you get new tokens..

Ok, then there are Elephant Grass and Moat. But come on,, who the hell is playing Grass,, only Enchantress... Also Moat isnt very many played.. And When theye are played,, they also have to be topdecked.. How little is the chance!?

Jip

[spirit of the wretch]

You want the Zealot against:
Ichorid (your Therapies are pretty useless here)
Cephalid Breakfast (can topdeck the instant win)
Anything with Enlightened Tutor (makes Therapies useless and assures a topdecked Crypt/Moat)
Burn (topdecked Fireblast can kill you, if you have a slow start)
Stax (Ghostly Prison/Magus of the Tabernacle)
Enchantress (mostly only needs one Enchantment of the top to get the engine going)
High Tide Combo (can freeze you for your Bib in response to your Therapy)

and that are just some from the Top of my head...

Basically, if you only have to invest one card to speed up your deck a complete turn, this sounds like a pretty good idea to me! Chances are much higher, that you lose a game, because you don't play the Zealot, than that you lose a game because the Zealot isn't something different (as most of the time, the card ends up dredged into the graveyard anyway).

Long story short:

Play that Zealot

[romain7]

Amen.

[Ozymandias]

Putrid Imp is better than Street Wraith because the chances of your opponent having Force of Will in his opening hand are about 40 percent, and It provides an out to GY hate. It also provides you with a must-counter spell.

[smoky squirrel]

Any comments on this list:

Land
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Colisseum

Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

Draw
4 Breakthrough
3 Deep Analysis
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Careful Study/2 Street Wraith

Other
4 LED
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Echoing Truth

I don't know if all the numbers are optimal... And I don't know which to take, Careful Study, or the uncounterable black Street Wraith, I'm leaning towards Wraith, but I am afraid that the digging power of Careful Study is better to get my answers game 2 and 3. Echoing Truth in side is to remove multiple pieces of hate, or tokens (Goblin or Zombie)

[Brehn]

How often do you find yourself casting Echoing Truth?

[smoky squirrel]

When you need to cast it (say, with a Leyline on the board, or a Yixlid Jailer) you are not dredging. So you will draw that second land and you are able to cast the spell. So yes, when you would need it, you can cast it. I just wanted a good answer against multiple permanents of the same type. We just have no good answer against 2 Leylines, 2 Yixlid, 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, and those do come up. Plus, they help against the mirror, and help against storm combo, the latter being a bad matchup.

[Proz0r]

@ Brehn

Obviously you are right in the Street Wraith vs Putrid Imp discussion. But why do you play 4 Putrid Imps? Why not more (as in Tireless Tribe)? Is 4 the optimal number? I don't assume that the non-removability for Ichorid will stop you from playing Tribe.

[Brehn]

Non-removability for Ichorid, 1/5 wall instead of 2/2 flying beater, no more available slots. And, I'm happy with the amount of mulligans I have to take. For reference, my current mainboard is the same as smoky squirrel's (-1 Coliseum +1 Undiscovered Paradise for more consistant Gambles out of the board). In my testing I've discovered that the only slot that is debatable in a general meta is the third Analysis. Options are the 3rd Return, the 3rd Study or the 1st Tribe.

Tribe is good if you expect
1) multiple Crypts. Unfortunately, people have discovered that most Ichorid players don't care about Crypts that much, so more decks are splashing black for graveyard hate (see UWb Landstill), preferring black splashes to others (see UGb Threshold) or create new metadecks with black (see The Epic Control). Also, they're discovering that Extirpate is underrated in general.
2) red removal spells and/or some fat creatures that have to be blocked. See "Goyf Sligh".
3) Doran. Ok, disregard that.

So in any meta with black, Tribe is really just P.Imp number 5 for mulliganning purposes. And I'm happy enough with my mulligans right now. Remember, with every Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe you add to the deck, you're increasing its consistancy while slowing it down. Aggro and Combo decks won't forgive slow starts all the time.

[Maagler]

I have been testing the tribes and i am an advocate for them. I like the ability for them to efficiently combat crypt, and I also like the higher consistency with them in the deck. I have found that 5-6 Pimps seems to fit into the deck perfectly. I see more keepable hands that go: Pimp/tribe, Land, dregger and I always keep them. Also they provide some big blockers against goyf.

[dlevsApiJ]

Instead of what have you tested it? I really like the card,, but cant find slots for it.. Only the Careful Studys (maybe cutting 1 for "the 5th Imp")

O, and about the FKZ, I will play 1 SB, cause MB most of the time you SB it out.. And I had 1 SB place, and no place MB.. I play it instead of the Sage in my SB (see my last list)..

And against the question:

Brehn (cause you also play with Gamble SB), what do you SB out when the Gambles + 3/4 other cards come in? Cause last tourney I really saw my deck became very slow after SBing..

Jip

[Jaynel]

O, and about the FKZ, I will play 1 SB, cause MB most of the time you SB it out.. And I had 1 SB place, and no place MB.. I play it instead of the Sage in my SB (see my last list)..

Jip

This really doesn't make sense. I feel like you want the deck to be AS RETARDED AS HUMANLY POSSIBLE in Game 1. FKZ is absolutely necessary to achieve this - he's simply awesome in the maindeck. The rest of the match usually slows down, as you bring in cards that dilute the combo but aid against hate.

[dlevsApiJ]

You saw the post spirit of the wretch? That are the cards/MU where I want the FKZ.. Like enchantress gonna board their Moats/Grasses out,, or Staxx his Prisons/Magus of the Tabernacles.. Of cource not,, G2 you also need the FKZ here, but I wont play it main, cause these decks are very rarely played, and I dont have the MB slots for him..

And in most MU's, you dont have to be really fast G1, cause they dont have hate to you.. Please say why you have to be so fast G1,, I dont see it..

[Jaynel]

You really don't want to leave anything to chance Game 1, that's why I feel speed is important. If you somehow manage to lose the first game, chances are very good that you will lose the match.

[Brehn]

And in most MU's, you dont have to be really fast G1, cause they dont have hate to you.. Please say why you have to be so fast G1,, I dont see it..

Yes, they have hate. They have Engineered Explosives or Pernicious Deed or Devastating Dreams or Wrath of God or Cataclysm or Aluren or Cunning Wish->Echoing Truth or Burning Wish->Pyroclasm or Glittering Wish->C/Punishment. Those can all be topdecked. And if you returned a Grave-Troll, any of these + a chumpblocker can steal the game. Let's take spiritofthewretch's list and complete it:

Ichorid
Cephalid Breakfast
Anything with Enlightened Tutor
Burn
Stax
Enchantress
High Tide Combo
4c Landstill (EE/Deed)
UW/UWb Landstill (EE/Wrath/C.Wish)
Aluren (Aluren/Deed)
Death & Taxes (Cataclysm)
Angel Stompy (Cataclysm)
Rabid Wombat, Mighty Quinn (Wrath, Moat)
RGSA, RGBSA (B.Wish)
Aggro Loam, CAL/r (B.Wish / Dreams)
The Rock/Doran/Funkbrew/Truffle Shuffle (Deed / G.Wish)
Some Deadguy/g-Variants (Deed)
MUC (Propaganda/C.Wish)
TEC (Wrath)
Rifter (Pyroclasm, Slice and Dice)
Polar Express (topdecked win)
Life.dec (topdecked win)
MossNought (topdecked win)
I will Survive (topdecked win)
Gargangel Stompy (Moat)
Train Wreck (Decree of Pain, Damnation, Deed, Punishment)
Anything with Trinket Mage
43land (Tabernacle <- Gamble)
Pox (Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison)
Eternal Garden (Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm <- Crop Rotation)

Those are rarely played, you say? Some of them yes, some of them no. I don't like losing to random jank. I especially don't like losing to random jank game 1. (Not that all of the listed decks are jank...)
This should be the guideline:


You really don't want to leave anything to chance Game 1, that's why I feel speed is important. If you somehow manage to lose the first game, chances are very good that you will lose the match.

[Muradin]

Looking at all those Extended lists I am not sure whether running a full playset of Ichorid and Cabal Therapy is the right choice. I think in every Matchup but heavy Control like Landstill 4 Ichorid seem to be overkill and just take up precious slots. Of course cutting an Ichorid would weaken the eot--> discard mode a bit but on the other hand it would give us the possibility to fit a full playset of Careful Study or Street Wraith into the deck which would really improve the quality of the draws a lot.
Nevertheless I think we shouldn't completely play the Extended style. Akroma is definately not that good in legacy and Tireless Tribe gets outclassed by LED + Deep Analysis. Furthermore we always have to keep in mind that there is Swords to Plowshares in Legacy which is a possibility to finally get rid of one of our Ichorids.
So what do you think, can one Ichorid/Therapy be cutted from the maindeck?

[Tacosnape]

One Ichorid could concievably be, but I doubt it.

Cutting a Cabal Therapy from this deck is under no circumstances whatsoever the right choice. Therapy lets you amass Zombie armies, knock Trolls out of your own hand, and quickly disrupt any fast strategy or answer your opponent has, including taking down Tormod's Crypt and Planar Void if you get a good enough start on game 3.

[Nihil Credo]

This is something I noticed in Smoky Squirrel's list, but it's possible other Ichorid players have made this mistake:


If you've cut every non-blue, non-black spell from your lists (i.e. no Gamble, no Ray of Revelation, etc.), then stop playing rainbow lands and run eight blue duals of your choice. 4 Seas if you have them, and probably 4 Ravnica duals or painlands (getting a fetchland Stifled can be ugly).

Incidentally, this also gives you the option of running Wonder again.

[Tacosnape]

If you've cut every non-blue, non-black spell from your lists (i.e. no Gamble, no Ray of Revelation, etc.), then stop playing rainbow lands and run eight blue duals of your choice. 4 Seas if you have them, and probably 4 Ravnica duals or painlands (getting a fetchland Stifled can be ugly).

I thoroughly agree with this. Watery Grave/Underground Sea is a pretty strong setup, and as the only off-color cards I ever want are enchantment removal spells, this seems like a pretty solid idea.


Incidentally, this also gives you the option of running Wonder again.

What? And open ourselves up to Hurricane? And you call yourself an adept.

This is a really strong idea, though. This lets us swing with annoying 1/1's on the table much more frequently.

[smoky squirrel]

@Nihil

No mistake running the rainbow lands. I'd much rather run the Underground Seas and such, I just don't have 'em... Some are coming my way though. As for the Echoing Truth, they are really nice actually, and I cast them as much as I would cast Ray of Revelation or Ancient Grudge.

[Nihil Credo]

Even if you don't have Underground Seas or Polluted Deltas, Underground River is a strict upgrade over City of Brass, and Watery Grave is generally considered better than Underground River.

[Bovinious]

Obviously if you are not running Rays/Grudge SB the rainbow lands go out and in go USeas and Graves, but its almost definitely a mistake to cut the Rays/Grudge from the SB, they answer so many things you just cant any other way.

[Muradin]

What do you actually think about Cephalid Sage? What is the right number for them? 0, 1, 2? At the moment I am running 2 to make sure the eot discard plan works out well, but I might change it because drawing them in your opening hand is really annoying. Furthermore I think, that they might be overkill quite often. Actually the whole Dread Returns plan with running FKZ and Sage and more than 2 DR might be overkill, nevertheless it wins game that couldn't be won otherwise. In my opinion the only way to make the DR Package reliable is to play at least 3 Dread Return, 1 FKZ + 1-2 Sage.

[Bane of the Living]

Do you stack your deck or how come you always have LED?

In case you still don't get it: It makes no sense arguing "Crypts are raced with Study + LED". Even with 4 Studies, 4 Breakthroughs and 4 LEDs this is way too improbable to rely on. You don't see people arguing in the T.E.S. thread "Counterbalance is played around by a Chant-protected Turn 1 Kill", do you?


This is now directed at both BreathWeapon and Bane of the Living: Do you actually take mulligans?
Sometimes you end up with 6, 5 or 4 cards because the deck screws you. "Land, Dredger, blank, blank, blank". If one of the blanks is P.Imp, the hand is keepable. If it's Nether Shadow or Street Wraith you go to 4. I think I said it earlier: Playing cards like Nether Shadow or Street Wraith speeds up the deck while sacrificing consistency.
"DDD" or "EOT Discard" doesn't work after mulliganing. It's a double/triple/quadruple Time Walk.


Wrong. :b:, Discard your hand: Target opponent discards a removal spell or counter of his or her choice. Street Wraith is Pay 2 life: If the engine is already running, dredge 6. Otherwise, draw Flame-Kin Zealot or some other crap. Conclusion: Imp > Wraith.

UGH. Strongly disagree.
- Has a hard time beating combo. Check.
- Wins against control. Check.
- Wins in the "Combat Damage Step" and tries to do so fast. Check.
- Doesn't like: StoP, Deed, Wrath. Check.
Ichorid is a fast aggro deck with synergistic cards. Just like Goblins. Only that it's faster, recovers more easily after mass removal and dies to some different hate.


Sorry, but that sounds a lot like: "I play Wraith because I don't know how to sideboard with other lists." If I board out 4 P.Imps (or whatever I play in your SW-slot) with my list, it's exactly the same.

Of course I take mulligans, theyre a fine point to your success. If you dont understand that a hand will completely crumble to a crumble to something like Goblin Lackey your not gonna get far in the tournament.

I rarely find myself in the triple timewalk games. Infact I found I only really had those when I was testing Serum Powder. Sometimes its a mistake to not keep your 7 card hand if it has enough juice in it but no outlet. Ill give you an example.

Putrid Imp
Street Wraith
Troll
Stinkweed
Cabal Therapy
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

If you dont keep this hand normally Id like you to consider the possibility of finding a good 6 card hand that can evade hate cards. At six cards your already gonna give your opponent a timewalk if its just as bad as the above hand. If you have mana/LED/outlet combo then you can attempt to start rolling but if you opponent has a way to stop you the whole game can be lost. Look at this..

City of Brass
PImp
Stinky
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
Narcomeaba

This is our 6 card hand that fumbles to Force, Daze, Mogg Fanatic, Swords to Plowshares. But not Crypt (oh boy). It will surely lose to goblins since they can Waste your land after killing your imp.

Sometimes you can work yourself into a 6-4 card hand that has mana/LED/outlet and a Therapy to clear the way or a hand with LEDx2 or LED + PImp. Thats why this deck is so good, it can be invulnerable to all hate. But the possibility of crafting a hand like that sometimes isnt worth the sacrifice of DDD.

Now lets return to the above 7 card hand..

Putrid Imp
Street Wraith
Troll
Stinkweed
Cabal Therapy
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

This hand has alot going for it. If your on the play you replace Street Wraith with the top card of your deck. You have 16/53 cards that will allow you a safe combo passage. If you on the draw your really in good shape, you go draw discard but if you have a hand this loaded you can safely take a draw phase or two to find your LED or land. Keeping the dredger in the yard to bait crypts. Street Wraith in this senario can make up for the lake of dredging for a turn or so while you dig for the card you need. Like I said its also an amazing way to bait crypt activations.

If you go to discard for a couple turns you can pitch the Therapy and almost always trigger an enemy crypt.
______________________________________

Why do I care if my opponent "loses" a removal spell to take care of the imp? Removal is worthless against the deck for what its worth thanks to recurring growing armies. Swords to Plowshares for instance is really only effective when its hitting the Imp your talking about. What good is a creatre you expect to die?

You nearly always have a Dredger in the graveyard are you honestly calling Street Wraith win more? lol

This deck doesnt have a hard time beating combo. Id say most combo is evenly matched. You can race them since your just as fast or faster, you have more copies of Cabal Therapy than any other deck, and post board you have Chalice of the Void to help too.

The only combo decks that dont use the combat phase are Solidarity and Tendrils decks that forsake Empty the Warrens. (why would they?)

Ichorid loves Wrath of God. Its four mana, if your not dead by the time I surely Therapied it out of your hand. StP is only good if your play you bank on PImp too much. Deed is slow, only effective against zombie tokens, and can be Therapied before turn 3..

Ichorid is a combo deck.

Are you really telling me the because Street Wraith is a great card to sb out I dont know how to sb with this deck.?? Bane of the Living?

[Brehn]

Putrid Imp
Street Wraith
Troll
Stinkweed
Cabal Therapy
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

This hand is perfectly keepable in most matchups. I'm not arguing against that.
Still, sometimes you have to take mulligans. If you play 11 dredgers, the probability of not finding one in your opening 7 cards is 22.24%. So at least 1 out of 5 hands will get sent back.



City of Brass
PImp
Stinky
Deep Analysis
Dread Return
Narcomeaba

This is our 6 card hand that fumbles to Force, Daze, Mogg Fanatic, Swords to Plowshares. But not Crypt (oh boy). It will surely lose to goblins since they can Waste your land after killing your imp.
While this hand is not very good, it's not horrible either. It doesn't necessarily fumble to Fanatic and Swords, if you're lucky enough to have a dredger in your top 5 cards (the probability of this being 61.37%, assuming 11 dredgers in the deck). Now replace the Putrid Imp with a Street Wraith and you'll see that you have the choice of either a double Time Walk or going down to 5. Point taken?


Swords to Plowshares for instance is really only effective when its hitting the Imp your talking about. What good is a creatre you expect to die?
I prefer my Ichorids not to get sworded. Maybe it's just me.


You nearly always have a Dredger in the graveyard are you honestly calling Street Wraith win more? lol
Umm.... yep?


This deck doesnt have a hard time beating combo. Id say most combo is evenly matched. You can race them since your just as fast or faster, you have more copies of Cabal Therapy than any other deck, and post board you have Chalice of the Void to help too.

The only combo decks that dont use the combat phase are Solidarity and Tendrils decks that forsake Empty the Warrens. (why would they?)
What? You're actually saying that combo is "evenly matched"? Find some semi-competent TES/Belcher/SI players and test. Not to mention those nasty Iggy Pop builds with maindeck Leylines.


Are you really telling me the because Street Wraith is a great card to sb out I dont know how to sb with this deck.?? Bane of the Living?
I told you that it sounds like you don't know how to sideboard. Telling me "A reason to play Wraith is that you know what to sideboard out" lead to this comment. There's no difference between playing Wraiths and siding them out and playing other cards and siding them out, so that's hardly a good argument.

[Tacosnape]

Now lets return to the above 7 card hand..

Putrid Imp
Street Wraith
Troll
Stinkweed
Cabal Therapy
Deep Analysis
Dread Return

This hand has alot going for it. If your on the play you replace Street Wraith with the top card of your deck. You have 16/53 cards that will allow you a safe combo passage.

But if the Street Wraith is any card not named Street Wraith, then you know whether or not it's correct to mulligan the hand. If it's Street Wraith, you don't. If you draw an opening seven with a Street Wraith, you're essentially drawing an opening hand of six cards you can see and one you can't. Any time you're missing exactly one element in an opening hand, be it mana, dredgers, or discard, and you have a Street Wraith, over 50% of the time the Street Wraith is not going to get you the missing element you need. But you don't know. You're handicapping yourself, crippling your opening hands, by not knowing what's actually in your opening hand.

By not running Street Wraith, you're running more of the three elements: Mana, Dredgers, or Discard, and thereby you're increasing your chances of not having a missing element in your opening hand. And when you are missing an element, you at least have all the information you need on whether or not to mulligan the hand.

[smoky squirrel]

In this case and with that reasoning, I think Tacosnape is right, since the possible options (dredgers, mana, discard, draw) are more divided. In Belcher, Street Wraith is a good card, since you can consider him to be a card that adds mana, since the deck is only win conditions and mana.

Now, for defending the card. I run 2 Street Wraith whereas everybody runs 2 Careful Study or something of that kind. Bane of the Living actually convinced me of doing that by one simple argument: it is a black creature. Running him allows for the slow dredge and more safe path to victory instead of 'comboing out' with Flame-Kin Zealot.

First of all, Street Wraith allows Ichorid to come back more, and ultimately creates more tokens. This happens slowly but surely. If your opponent is packing Crypt or Engineered Explosives, he does not know when to use it exactly, since the loss is not as big if you slow dredge. This is true even if there is no Street Wraith though, but the plan is just more consistent with.

Second, he is uncounterable dredge. This really matters actually. It has happened more than once that my opponent had a chalice at 1 out, I just needed a dredge to win the game, and I was stuck on one land, a Breakthrough or a Careful study in hand... That sucks...

So in short, when I have a hand with Street Wraith in it, I evaluate the hand as if he weren't there, and not by thinking he could be the best thing I will be able to draw, that is just a wrong assumption. For me he is just another chance to dredge.

[spirit of the wretch]

Umm.... yep?

I lol'd! Long and heavy!
Anyway, from my point of view Brehn is right with all the points he made.
I will play this deck in Hassloch the next sunday again and let you guys now how it went.

[socialite]

Street Wraith is a dredge card. Why do people view it as anything different? I see where you guys are coming from in a sense, but I feel as though individuals focus on the ability to cycle it for X card and subsequently get hung up on what X card could be rather then looking at it as free dredge and fodder for Ichorid reanimation. Two purposes it serves quite well in my opinion.

[Bane of the Living]

Street Wraith is a dredge card. Why do people view it as anything different? I see where you guys are coming from in a sense, but I feel as though individuals focus on the ability to cycle it for X card and subsequently get hung up on what X card could be rather then looking at it as free dredge and fodder for Ichorid reanimation. Two purposes it serves quite well in my opinion.

Yes even our Legacy Adept Tacosnape assumes you should simply filter a card off the top of your deck with Street Wraith or that "Your only really seeing 6 out of 7 cards." You shouldnt be playing him as the waste of space your used to using him as in Belcher. The Street Wraiths ultimate use is a bluffed dredge. Free and uncounterable. Alot of hate that comes in along side graveyard hate is REB's. Street Wraith can help you tread water against Red decks.

You need to realize that the free Time Walks for your opponent are going to happen no matter what different 4-8 cards are in your version of Ichorid. Street Wraith helps you recover an entire turn off that for a meager 2 life.

Also dont look at it as though Putrid Imp and SW are trying to maintain the same role. Theyre on completely different ends of the spectrum. I personally view PImp as a 3 star card in a 5 star line up. Its not exactly easy to find the room for improvements in this deck but I assure you I will always lead the forefront.

[slobad23]

Street Wraith is a dredge card. Why do people view it as anything different? I see where you guys are coming from in a sense, but I feel as though individuals focus on the ability to cycle it for X card and subsequently get hung up on what X card could be rather then looking at it as free dredge and fodder for Ichorid reanimation. Two purposes it serves quite well in my opinion.

qfft

People put it in belcher for the wrong reasons. this is truly a deck where street wraith shines. it's the *drawing a card* bit for free that matters. you know what that card draw is going to be... it's going to be a grave troll!

[Elfrago]

Hi guys! I've been playing with this deck lately and I have a question for ya:
What's the right number of Ichorids?
Sorry if this has been asked before but I was looking to the extended lists of the latest GP, and most of them play only 3, and the deck is more or less the the same (well, the legacy version should be a little more faster).

[Brehn]

4. Anything else is just wrong.

[Elfrago]

4. Anything else is just wrong.

Fine. But why?
Honestly, I can see very good reasons for running 4 (it's your best chance after the bridges get removed, it creates some tokens every turn...) but also very good reasons to run 3 and fit the fourth PImp or the fourth Careful Study (less mulligans, higher probability of a broken start...).

[Elficidium]

Fine. But why?
Honestly, I can see very good reasons for running 4 (it's your best chance after the bridges get removed, it creates some tokens every turn...) but also very good reasons to run 3 and fit the fourth PImp or the fourth Careful Study (less mulligans, higher probability of a broken start...).
Bridges get removed horribly fast. And without Ichorids you quickly run out of creatures to die and give you zombies anyway, since you will probably discarding your hand and dredging after the first turns. Narcomoebas alone won't usually give enough zombies for a long game.

[Bane of the Living]

Hi guys! I've been playing with this deck lately and I have a question for ya:
What's the right number of Ichorids?
Sorry if this has been asked before but I was looking to the extended lists of the latest GP, and most of them play only 3, and the deck is more or less the the same (well, the legacy version should be a little more faster).

You need 4 in Legacy but it really depends how often you play against Swords to Plowshares. Extended doesnt have it but does normally play Extirpate so playing 3 Ichorids becomes some sort of strategy.

The problem with Extended is everytime the season comes around people try to do stupid bull to legacy decks that actually weakens it. Take Tireless Tribe and Akroma for example. Alot of extended players may find they have a liking for Legacy and try to jump right into the format toting Akroma along with them. Would you have really considered Tireless Tribe 6 months ago?

[Elfrago]

You need 4 in Legacy but it really depends how often you play against Swords to Plowshares. Extended doesnt have it but does normally play Extirpate so playing 3 Ichorids becomes some sort of strategy.

This is a good point. I did not consider StP.:rolleyes: I'll stick with four, since Landistill is, more or less, half of my meta.

[Tacosnape]

Fine. But why?
Honestly, I can see very good reasons for running 4 (it's your best chance after the bridges get removed, it creates some tokens every turn...) but also very good reasons to run 3 and fit the fourth PImp or the fourth Careful Study (less mulligans, higher probability of a broken start...).

Hate to agree with Bane, but he's right. You run 4 Ichorids because you need more Ichorids than your opponents have Swords to Plowshares.

[gnurbel2000]

@bane of the living
You posted some hands with you "Street Wraith list", but i wasn't able to find that list, so can you post the list you're referring to? And if your that kind can you post your Sb for a general/unknown meta?

[Bane of the Living]

@bane of the living
You posted some hands with you "Street Wraith list", but i wasn't able to find that list, so can you post the list you're referring to? And if your that kind can you post your Sb for a general/unknown meta?

Yea Im Pm'd for it constantly, here it is with no disgression since I dont plan on playing it for a bit..

4 LED
4 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum

2 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
3 Street Wraith
4 Narcomeoba
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

3 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Gravetroll

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
3 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough

sb:
4 Leyline of the Void
3-4 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
1-2 Ray of Revelation
0-1 Platinum Angel
0-1 Crippling Fatigue
0-2 Contagion

Crippling Fatigue is against Gaddock Teeg and Contagion for Yixid Jailer. Unfortunalty niether card handles both.. If anyone can think of a better option let me know but regardless I think its important to have some form of spot removal in the current format.

[Obfuscate Freely]

Crippling Fatigue is against Gaddock Teeg and Contagion for Yixid Jailer. Unfortunalty niether card handles both.. If anyone can think of a better option let me know but regardless I think its important to have some form of spot removal in the current format.

I've boarded Swords to Plowshares before. It deals with anything, without removing your Bridges. You just have to draw the damn thing.

[Nihil Credo]

Darkblast may also be considered. You just start your engine as normal, then dredge it back and keep it as an out to Jailer - for that specific problem, it is better than StP. With the upkeep-dredge-recast trick, it can also kill Gaddock Teeg (though it requires two lands, or a land + a LED to blow up in your upkeep).

[Tacosnape]

Seal of Removal solves the problem of Yixlid Jailer and Gaddock Teeg also. Seal of Removal also can be played before you nerf your entire hand with LED/Breakthrough asshattery, and can be casted off a Cephalid Coliseum. Then you just Therapy whatever you bounce out of their hand.

It can also bounce any of your opponent's creatures that's about to die from combat and eat your Bridges, though Swords to Plowshares similarly fulfills this requirement.

Darkblast would be better if it could kill Teeg without the upkeep trick (Two black is stretching it) and if it didn't eat your Bridges if you happen to get an early one. However, the fact that it at least works as a dredger makes it an option.