[Deck] Ichorid

[Pulp_Fiction]

The Extended lists are almost just as fast as Legacy Dredge with a decent hand. My build (with Tireless Tribe) consistently kills around turns 2-4 and this is taking into account disruption from my opponent. I am not advocating that anyone needs to play basically extended Dredge however to the people who do run Dredge in Legacy I would strongly suggest that you at least put it together and test it out I am sure that the consistency of this build will impress!

@whitshadw8: Don't count LED as a manasource. LED can only cast things in the graveyard and activate lands! The reason I don't like LED in this deck is that it is phenomenal when you open up with Breakthrough on the stack blowing up LED pithching hand dredging the shit out of ur deck. This is why most people run the deck, the explosiveness. But I find that LED is way to situational. It is either amazing or awful and I found that around 40% of the time I had an LED in play I was wanting it to be PImp.

[edgewalker]

The Extended lists are almost just as fast as Legacy Dredge with a decent hand.


I'd like the emphasis this since the legacy lists are fast enough even with a mediocre hand. You can't compare the legacy lists to the extended ones, they are the same deck, but they're played in completely different formats. I never hard cast a Narcomoeba and rarely do it with a Therapy.

You're not playing the deck right if you think LED and Deep analysis are poor cards. Whenever I play this deck, I have to say that LED is probably the best card in the deck. It's one of the cards I love to see in my opening hand, it's broken with almost any card in the deck. Deep analysis isn't as good as LED, but that's why I play 2-3, being able to not fizzle isn't bad.

If I where to add more lands, I'd only go up to 13 or 14, there really isn't a need for more since you only need 1 most of the time.

[Bongo]

Pulp Fiction already nicely said what I wanted to, so I just add this:

LED requires a DA or Coliseum in the same turn to be really effective.
With only 12 Lands it also gets really hard to activate Coliseum, which is one of your best cards when playing against disruption. Also, to activate Coliseum in the first turn with LED, you need to be on the draw.

Without DA or Coliseum, paying 3 life to discard my hand isn't that good. Especially if you have spells you wanted to cast in the first place like Breakthrough or Careful Study.

I also swapped 1 Thug with the 4th Citadel, so that brings me up to 16 lands. Really, the major difference between this deck and the "regular" Dredge builds is:

- 4 LED
+4 Tarnished Citadel
- 2 DA
+2 Tolarian Winds

On paper, this looks weaker, but believe me, the additional consistency you gain is worth it. Consistency is important, especially since your goldfish speed doesn't speed up that much with LED (but the mulligan rate goes up). After changing to my current version, I found that I needed to mulligan less.

I found that 2 lands in play is optimal, as it enables the following plays:

- activating Coliseum
- playing Breakthrough for 1 to keep another Breakthrough or dodge Chalice 1
- playing a Therapy and Study/Breakthrough in the same turn
- hardcasting Moeba or Thug to get to three creatures for Dread Return
- Another minor benefit of not running LED is that you won't be affected by Chalice for 0 from your opponent


For these reasons I think it's better to run more land in Dredge.

[Dark_Cynic87]

WTF. This is nonsense. People were putting in SW to make this better/faster and LESS dependent on lands, not upping lands, dropping LEDs and dropping dredge count, not to mention DA, all in the name of consistancy.

Street Wraith, not this junk. That's 4x extra *FREE* dredge enablers. I have NO problem with 11 lands, and you guys are upping it to 16? :confused:

Meh.

Anyway, if you need 2 lands, why not run a LftL or a Dakmor Salvage? That's a better remedy. Not shifting the entire list towards a slower goldfish.

--DC

[edgewalker]

Actually, LED is good with all of your cards since worst case scenario you take 3 for dumping your hand. It plays well with Breakthrough, coliseum (one of those lands you have such a hard on for) deep analysis, careful study, and not to mention just dumping your hand like I mentioned before.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@edgewalker: sorry, I phrased that wrong. What I meant to imply was that the Extended version is basically just as fast and a lot more consistent and I implicated badly that Legacy Dredge needed the "decent hand" to keep pace with the consistency of a more Extended build. And please don't count LED as a manasource because when you have an opening hand which consists of something like 5 non-land cards, 1x Chain of Vapor and 1x LED you are NOT casting the Chain of Vapor. Sorry if I have a "hard on" for Cephalid Colisseum since it gives me the opportunity to win the game and cast Careful Study or ... god forbid ... SB cards.

Bongo prefers Tolarian Winds and I prefer Tireless Tribe, in extended this is another debate but in the end either one is just as good however I have found that if Tolarian Winds resolves you will win around 90% of the time but in a deck that runs so few lands I prefer the stalling power of the Tribe.

@Dark_Cynic87: ..... who said anything about Street Wraith? Dakmor Salvage is terrible since it comes into play tapped and how do you plan on casting Loam?

[Bongo]

edgewalker:
I also played with LED, it's just that you're very dependant on quite a few things going right. I know LED is good with Breakthrough and Careful Study, however you need a LAND to cast these in the first place, which is not that likely when running only 12 lands.

When you mulligan because you didn't have a land, the percentage of getting a Dredge card also goes down, which leads to greater inconsistencies.


Dark_Cynic87:
The goldfish isn't that much slower, I regularly kill between turn 2-4.
With LED this was more like turn 1 with a god hand, turn 2-4 when you get a good hand, but turn 3-7 when you don't draw the nuts or need to mulligan.


----

Another point that I find really important:

With more lands, you're able to fight through hate a lot better post-board, which is where the match gets decided, you win game 1 most of the time anyway. Hard-casting Ray of Revelation has been game-saving, and that would be highly unlikely when you only run 11 or 12 lands.
It also sucked to have the Chain in hand for the Leyline (or the Needle for Crypt), but no mana to cast it. You don't want to throw those games away because of mana issues, make your opponent work for their win.

[Mayk0l]

Yesterday I won three games turn 1 because of the LED smiling at me in my opening 7.
That beats TES.

Nuff Said


But I'll add:
With a LED in your opening 7, you need either a Land or a DA to go nuts. If you're on the draw, you can cast LED and activate the Coliseum on turn one, which is an insane play. You cannot do this with 2 lands.

[Bongo]

Three games is obviously big enough of a sample size :rolleyes:

There are quite a few things that have to right for you to get that LED coliseum start:

1. Draw LED
2. Draw Coliseum
3. Be on the Draw
4. LED doesn't get countered (happens more than you like)

The more "if's" you have, the greater your inconsistencies are.

If you want to beat TES, I think Unmask is the way to go.

[Mayk0l]

If I win three games against one of the more difficult matchups then that outright proves its use. I've played TES a million times and you have two options with Ichorid
1) Race them with LED
2) Wreck them with Therapies
Killing off one of those routes for more consistency (and slow the deck down to slugspeed) doesn't sound like a top8 strategy to me.
Also, LED puts Therapies into your graveyard faster than a deck without it.

Unmask is good in type 1, but we don't run Street Wraith and cannot support the card properly because we don't run enough black cards and/or can't miss them.

Also, the LED Coliseum start is just one of the options you have with LED. LED DA, LED Coliseum, LED Blue Card/Land are all good.
Even better, those hands are all infinitely better than 'Land, go, Land, go, Tolarian Winds - Daze.. gg'. I can assure you that Tolarian Winds will get countered a lot more than turn 1 LED.

I don't think the deck needs more consistency. It hits the Top8's all over the world by getting quick kills in with LED. An option might be to remove the DA/LED in game 2 to add sideboard nastyness (an idea that has been discarded by a lot), but don't you agree that it's absolutely necessary with Ichorid to win game 1, and winning game 1 is preferably done by going insane with your deck?
The long lasting games you play with Ichorid should be game 2 or 3, not 1.

[lolosoon]

Also, the LED Coliseum start is just one of the options you have with LED. LED DA, LED Coliseum, LED Blue Card/Land are all good.
With 1 mana open, LED + Study, or even better, Breakthrough can be gamebreaking when turn 1 Imp or Tribe just switch the "slow" dredge engine on, or postpone the discard//'blue card' winning plan one whole turn.

LED makes Ichorid a bit less consistant ?! Bah ! Take more mulligans and turn your whining hands into winning ones !

There's no point babbling about your experiences with extended Dredge in an extended metagame if you haven't test over and over the Legacy list in the same extended metagame.

I've tried the Imp//Tribe list in Legacy. Ok, it's more consistant, I agree. But the lack of sheer speed of those list makes me lost more games than I was accustomed with the standard Legacy list.

It might be revelant in an particular metagame, but I really don't see which...

[edgewalker]

Like I said before, LED is nuts, it gets even better when you add DA, breakthrough, dredgers, careful study, or cephalid Coliseum... oh wait that's the entire deck!

[DeathwingZERO]

Also, LED puts Therapies into your graveyard faster than a deck without it.

Unmask is good in type 1, but we don't run Street Wraith and cannot support the card properly because we don't run enough black cards and/or can't miss them.

An option might be to remove the DA/LED in game 2 to add sideboard nastyness (an idea that has been discarded by a lot)

A few things here.

First off, with or without LED, you have 8 lands that can CAST Therapy before it hits the yard. This alone nullifies your argument for LED being useful to dump them, because now TES has to deal with you casting AND recasting them. I'd say it's well worth ditching a counter or taking a hit for that kind of power.

Second, check the lists that have been doing well recently, especially the one Anwar is piloting. It's got Unmasks, and he swears by the card. Many times it will remove a dredge spell, an Ichorid, or even Therapy. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't whiff, where Therapy is typically just used to sac a creature (once it's hit the yard), and tends to be useless until it finds it's way there or you find a mana source. Those two factors tend to play pretty big to Unmask's inclusion.

Third (and part of second) my list I'm working on with a friend DOES include Street Wraith. We've come to the conclusion that Breakthrough tends to just suck. It's ONLY good with a land out, is always a must-counter, and nearly always comes with the same conclusion as LED: ditch the entire hand to pitch the select cards. Why not just do the same with Imp, AND have something to go along with it that's not an all-or-nothing play each game?

Street Wraith has been included over Breakthrough in my build for several reasons:

1- Ichorid recursions +4/Grave Troll size +4. Works really well, especially in games 2 and 3 where you rely on them because you've sided out the combo.

2- Doesn't require mana, and is instant speed. This is crucial. Dredging whenever is cool, especially in cases where you can't cast the Breakthrough, but have the LED up. It's also fun on the upkeep for being able to bring back Ichorid AND allow you to dredge, which will tend to surprise opponents who thought they were safe that turn.

*And there's gonna be a number of games where you can cycle this guy 2-3 times if you see them, because your life means nothing until you are dead. This, DA, lands and LED breaks into nothing seem to be a lot of life loss on paper, but I've yet to go to a game where it's ever been a risk. This version hasn't lost any speed that I've noticed, a half a turn at most.

3- Unmask inclusion. There's a number of black cards in the deck that can be tossed aside, but you tend not to want to. If you already are on an explosive start, he can be pitched so you don't have to.

4- Uncounterable. This is clutch here. Breakthrough is the biggest bomb in the deck, and ultimately tends to get hit way more often than LED by good players. While you aren't drawing 4 right away, you ARE going to draw that one, because chances are they won't waste a Stifle on this guy.

5- Games 2 and 3. I tend to leave him in. Most games I'm not going to side in all 15, and between LED, DA, and combo pieces, I've usually got my 11 spells covered. That means this guy can stick around, and I'll have better chances of drawing into my answers. It's not much, but playing a 56 card deck when you NEED to hit answers is better than a 60.

And yes, removing the combo pieces (this includes DA and LED in most cases) is the typical move for games 2 and 3. They are so hellbent on stopping you from explosive combos that usually nuking their answers and Ichorid beats is all you need.

I would suggest at least trying Street Wraith in testing. I'm still not sold on entirely cutting Breakthrough, but at the same time, we're not running Study either, so I may make room for that. I personally still think DA is the worst blue spell in the deck, because a majority of the time you just can't cast it. I'll be doing more testing on which spells to cut, and when the list is doing more of what I want it to (less killing itself randomly), I'll probably post it.

[Bongo]

If I win three games against one of the more difficult matchups then that outright proves its use.

No.


LED makes Ichorid a bit less consistant ?! Bah ! Take more mulligans and turn your whining hands into winning ones !

Easier said than done. With each mulligan the chance you'll see relevant cards goes down. And the chance you don't have mana to cast your cards goes down.



There's no point babbling about your experiences with extended Dredge in an extended metagame if you haven't test over and over the Legacy list in the same extended metagame.


I have tested both the Extended and the Legacy list, and I've made it to the Finals of a 100+ PTQ in Extended and in 2 Legacy Top 8.

---

The only matchup where you really need the speed from LED is against Storm. If a lot of Storm is played in your meta, Ichorid is the wrong choice anyway. Against pretty much every other deck, you have the edge in game 1. If you lose game 1, it's mostly because you kept bad hands (or your LED got countered).
More lands - less bad hands - better game 1.

The real key to win with Ichorid is the ability to deal with hate in sideboarded games. And it's more difficult to deal with hate if you can't cast your solutions.

Another minor benefit of running mana is that you can hard cast your critters when desperate and beat down anyway. This might seem like a bad joke, but Nikolaus Eigner almost beat down Mateusz Kopec in the finals of GP Vienna because he had enough lands to hard cast flying creatures and slowly grind the opponent down.

[Ozymandias]

Cutting LED? Cutting Breakthrough? What?

LED is fundamental for the deck's speed, and for giving it mana and a discard outlet at the same time- something no other card can claim to do. It also does very well at baiting counters.

Breakthrough in this deck says: "Put the top 4-24 cards of your library, and your hand, into your graveyard". In this deck deck, that pretty much says you win this turn or the next. In the best case scenario, Street Wraith says "put the top 6 cards of your library into your graveyard."-Not nearly as good.

Keep both, and play 4 of both.

[Bongo]

LED is fundamental for the deck's speed, and for giving it mana and a discard outlet at the same time- something no other card can claim to do. It also does very well at baiting counters.


The thing is, you can't use that mana reliably with only 4 Coliseum and 2 DA to pump it into. Also, you need Threshold before you can pump that Coliseum, something which gets harder the more mulligans you take.

If you have land, then you can use LED to bait counters, but that's a pretty big if. Most of the time I didn't want my LED to be countered, since it was the only discard outlet I could cast.

[gnurbel2000]

The thing is, you can't use that mana reliably with only 4 Coliseum and 2 DA to pump it into. Also, you need Threshold before you can pump that Coliseum, something which gets harder the more mulligans you take.

If you have land, then you can use LED to bait counters, but that's a pretty big if. Most of the time I didn't want my LED to be countered, since it was the only discard outlet I could cast.

When your hand contains LED and some dredgers, but nothing else, then you don't have to cast that LED on turn one, especially when you know that your opponent could counter it.
The same would be true if your hand had only one land some dredgers and a tireless tribe/Putrid Imp. If it gets countered its +1 timewalk compared to a countered LED.
When you have LED as your only discardoutlet, then you'll DDD most of the time until you find an opportunity to cast LED. Decks packing counters are usually slow enough that you can DDD until you can protect your LED with a Therapy to use it for that dredged Deep Analysis or that Cephald COliseum in your hand. And since you already have cards in your graveyard resolving that LED isn't critical, but it will give you a boost of 2-4 dredges.

[Wallace]

What cards do you generally take out of the main when sideboarding, I know what to bring in and when, I just don't know what to take out?

[DeathwingZERO]

Cutting LED? Cutting Breakthrough? What?

LED is fundamental for the deck's speed, and for giving it mana and a discard outlet at the same time- something no other card can claim to do. It also does very well at baiting counters.

Breakthrough in this deck says: "Put the top 4-24 cards of your library, and your hand, into your graveyard". In this deck deck, that pretty much says you win this turn or the next. In the best case scenario, Street Wraith says "put the top 6 cards of your library into your graveyard."-Not nearly as good.

Keep both, and play 4 of both.

That's hardly a true statement. Neither of these cards are fundamental when in games 2-3, meaning they are obviously not "auto-include x4".

LED is NOT fundamental for the deck's speed. It's ONLY fundamental for the first turn, and so many people have cut back the number of Dread Returns that even that is nearly impossible now. If you drop an LED, crack it and say "go" you have 7 cards in your graveyard, and can dredge on your draw.

If you have say Imp, Coliseum, and Rainbow land, you play Imp, discard Dredge card x + cards, get to threshold after your dredge activation, and activate Coliseum, you are FAR ahead in comparison. For starters, you didn't get a single spell countered, AND you still have cards in hand. This is crucial for games 2 and 3, where you NEED mana sources to cast your spells, especially when you can't dredge into some of them due to hate. More lands = better games 2 and 3, hands down.

As for Street Wraith, any single draw is good, it DOES NOT require you to discard your hand. Drawing multiple cards is explosive, but between Study and Coliseum that should be enough. Adding in Street Wraith not only gives instant speed dredge, but it also gave Ichorid comebacks a less painful route (face it, if you are stuck on Ichorid beats or sacrificing them to get to your combo kill, you really don't want to kill off dredge creatures in the middle of dredging). You really should only need to dredge 3 times in a single game to have options available for more dredge, or a good clock. Not to mention, he's going to give you more chances to see your answers in the second and third game, which Breakthrough cannot.

Personally I'm going to be working on variants of the Extended version. Adding in Street Wraith, taking out DA, LED and Breakthrough seems to give way more versatility, while not sacrificing more than a turn worth of speed at most. That's still pretty fast when your average kill turn is 3.

[Pulp_Fiction]

@Wallace: Post your decklist and SB and the people in here can show you the different routes to take when sideboarding w/ this deck. And when playing a deck like this there is no "right" way to SB you just kind of get comfortable with a match and take out the cards you feel are not relevant I am sure most people in here SB very different.

@DeathwingZERO: Quite Fucking True. Make sure you include Tireless Tribe in a few lists, I run 3x and they are amazing in this deck.

[Bongo]

@DeathwingZero:

While I wouldn't go so far as cutting Breakthrough, your thought process is interesting (and you slay a lot of "sacred cows"). Please tell me how your testing works out.


Not to mention, he's (Street Wraith) going to give you more chances to see your answers in the second and third game, which Breakthrough cannot.


With two lands in play, Breakthrough can act as a digging spell, so it's not completely useless.
If you run Unmask in your build, I also suspect that your chances of resolving Breakthrough are higher, making it an attractive option again.

[Dr.Kokusho]

Finally!!! A discussion that does not revolve around what to sb

My playing experience has led me to conclude that LED and DA lessen consistency to the point that it no longer justifies the ability for a turn 1 kill

I propose to those who suggest unmask and street wraith to post actual decklists so they can be evaulated through testing rather than speculation.

Unmask can also be used as discard outet to allow turn 1 brokenness with breakthrough just in case no one noticed

[Odd Mutation]

Hi,

I played Ichorid in a Legacy tournement on Sunday in Mol, Belgium. I did terribly but that was completely due to my inexperience with the deck and the format: I haven't touched my cards in like 2 months. I tried to play the deck like the Type I version, with which I managed 3rd place in a Vintage tournement a while ago, but it doesn't work like that in Legacy... apparantly. :)

This post isn't meant to cry about my lowsy performance but to show that Ichorid did manage to top 8 at the site! Out of 58 people it managed a 6th place: Frederic Kleinen.

Go here for the list and the other top 8 lists: http://www.magicclubmol.be/files/results/20080720.php and click 'Top 8 Decklists'.

From my own experience, for what it's worth, I really wanted more draw and discard in my deck so I can totally agree with the 3 extra Careful Studies Frederic played. I also wasn't too impressed with LED to be honest... Again these observations come from one tournement experience, from the guy who made 48th. *hangs head in shame*

On a brighter note, the tournement rekindled my interest in the format considerably, so... next time!

Greetings,

Robrecht.

[Mayk0l]

Edit

[Mayk0l]

A few things here.

First off, with or without LED, you have 8 lands that can CAST Therapy before it hits the yard. This alone nullifies your argument for LED being useful to dump them

I never said LED is a good way to dump them out of your hand (which it is btw), I was talking about getting more therapies in your graveyard faster, obviously LED enables faster dredging, which hits more therapies early, which is essential in beating Storm.



Second, check the lists that have been doing well recently, especially the one Anwar is piloting. It's got Unmasks, and he swears by the card. Many times it will remove a dredge spell, an Ichorid, or even Therapy. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't whiff, where Therapy is typically just used to sac a creature (once it's hit the yard), and tends to be useless until it finds it's way there or you find a mana source.


The discussion was never about Therapy/Unmask. It was about the role of Unmask in beating storm.

Which brings me to:

The only matchup where you really need the speed from LED is against Storm. If a lot of Storm is played in your meta, Ichorid is the wrong choice anyway.
But you *do* think Ichorid should play Unmask to beat Storm?

Back to Therapy:

A few things here.
Therapy is typically just used to sac a creature (once it's hit the yard), and tends to be useless until it finds it's way there or you find a mana source.


Saccing creatures is a nice bonus to Therapy, but I usually use it to erm.. beat combo? Beat answers? Once you dredge, you have X therapies knocking out a complete hand, beating combo or any answer to your gameplan like STP or whatnot.


Street Wraith however, is a good option. It's viable in Type 1 but it's not really gotten off the ground in Legacy. I just like how Breakthrough dredges 4 times.





The real key to win with Ichorid is the ability to deal with hate in sideboarded games. And it's more difficult to deal with hate if you can't cast your solutions.

Yeah, Chalice costs 0, Leyline costs 0, and the other cards cost 1 mana. Ray and Grudge are castable off of LED even. So the only issue you'd have is one blue mana for Chain. If you can't make 1 Blue mana with 12 rainbow lands, then you're doing something wrong.




Another minor benefit of running mana is that you can hard cast your critters when desperate and beat down anyway.

It sounds like a silly plan to up your land count with 4 lands just for that extremely rare conclusion. More often than not you'll be stuck with too many lands in your hand an not enough business. And it's especially surprising that a guy who said I shouldn't add a nobrainer card like LED because it helps me beat TES three times in a row in a competitive setting, is now suggesting adding four lands because some dude beat another dude in a last ditch effort-strategy in one particular game.



LED is NOT fundamental for the deck's speed. It's ONLY fundamental for the first turn,

you play Imp, .....

As for Street Wraith, any single draw is good, it DOES NOT require you to discard your hand.

taking Breakthrough seems to give way more versatility,

This doesn't make sense,

First off, adding more land makes breakthrough more powerful, removing them is stupid.
Second, if you want to use SWs ability as a dredge enabler, you're going to have to discard something first any way you look at it.
Third, LED IS fundamental to the deck's speed. LED gives options for fast dredging and fast kills starting turn one. You cannot win turn 1 with a Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe, you can win with LED. Winning fast game 1 is pretty fundamental.
Fourth, why in your stories does the LED get countered but the Putrid Imp doesn't? If Imp gets countered in your example, you're just as far behind


If you have land, then you can use LED to bait counters, but that's a pretty big if. Most of the time I didn't want my LED to be countered, since it was the only discard outlet I could cast.

Finally, in a situation like this, if you have a dredger and are playing against a deck that counters, DDD and win.

[BreathWeapon]

One of the problems with LED based Ichorid is that even tho its superior to non LED Ichorid in terms of explosiveness, that explosiveness is only relevant for racing aggro and racing combo. If Extended based Ichorid can defeat aggro thru attrition and defeat combo thru disruption then implenting a less commital game plan thru Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe followed by Careful Study and Brainstorm is going to make the deck more consistent, but slower, and less vulnerable, but weaker against Tormods Crypt.

Its just a less coin flip dependent strategy, one that gives better winning chances in game 2 at the cost of some winning chances in game 1, but as long as that trade off isnt proportional, and as far as I can tell it isnt, then non LED Ichorid is going to have an advatnage over LED Ichorid against prepared opponents in survivability.

I apologize for the punctuation, my key board is on the fritz.

[luka66_6]

Is there any good non led-s lists?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Just look back in the thread a few pages. There are pleny of lists. The one I posted has never done worse than a top 8 out of 20+ people.

[edgewalker]

One of the problems with LED based Ichorid is that even tho its superior to non LED Ichorid in terms of explosiveness, that explosiveness is only relevant for racing aggro and racing combo. If Extended based Ichorid can defeat aggro thru attrition and defeat combo thru disruption then implenting a less commital game plan thru Putrid Imp and Tireless Tribe followed by Careful Study and Brainstorm is going to make the deck more consistent, but slower, and less vulnerable, but weaker against Tormods Crypt.

Its just a less coin flip dependent strategy, one that gives better winning chances in game 2 at the cost of some winning chances in game 1, but as long as that trade off isnt proportional, and as far as I can tell it isnt, then non LED Ichorid is going to have an advatnage over LED Ichorid against prepared opponents in survivability.

I apologize for the punctuation, my key board is on the fritz.

You know what, you're right, please stop playing LED and get other people not to play it either so I can steam roll you in the mirror.

kthxbye

[Wallace]

You know what, you're right, please stop playing LED and get other people not to play it either so I can steam roll you in the mirror.

kthxbye

I'll 2nd that.

[Bane of the Living]

Unmask is good in type 1, but we don't run Street Wraith and cannot support the card properly because we don't run enough black cards and/or can't miss them.


You should be running him. It makes Unmask good. It makes the namesake of the deck stronger.


..... who said anything about Street Wraith? Dakmor Salvage is terrible since it comes into play tapped and how do you plan on casting Loam?

I did. I've been promoting him for months. Salvage is usefull in metagames that include Geddon Stax and Dragon Stompy. It improves the matchup alot for a one card difference.


A few things here.

First off, with or without LED, you have 8 lands that can CAST Therapy before it hits the yard. This alone nullifies your argument for LED being useful to dump them, because now TES has to deal with you casting AND recasting them. I'd say it's well worth ditching a counter or taking a hit for that kind of power.

Second, check the lists that have been doing well recently, especially the one Anwar is piloting. It's got Unmasks, and he swears by the card. Many times it will remove a dredge spell, an Ichorid, or even Therapy. But it doesn't matter, because it doesn't whiff, where Therapy is typically just used to sac a creature (once it's hit the yard), and tends to be useless until it finds it's way there or you find a mana source. Those two factors tend to play pretty big to Unmask's inclusion.

Third (and part of second) my list I'm working on with a friend DOES include Street Wraith. We've come to the conclusion that Breakthrough tends to just suck. It's ONLY good with a land out, is always a must-counter, and nearly always comes with the same conclusion as LED: ditch the entire hand to pitch the select cards. Why not just do the same with Imp, AND have something to go along with it that's not an all-or-nothing play each game?

Street Wraith has been included over Breakthrough in my build for several reasons:

1- Ichorid recursions +4/Grave Troll size +4. Works really well, especially in games 2 and 3 where you rely on them because you've sided out the combo.

2- Doesn't require mana, and is instant speed. This is crucial. Dredging whenever is cool, especially in cases where you can't cast the Breakthrough, but have the LED up. It's also fun on the upkeep for being able to bring back Ichorid AND allow you to dredge, which will tend to surprise opponents who thought they were safe that turn.

*And there's gonna be a number of games where you can cycle this guy 2-3 times if you see them, because your life means nothing until you are dead. This, DA, lands and LED breaks into nothing seem to be a lot of life loss on paper, but I've yet to go to a game where it's ever been a risk. This version hasn't lost any speed that I've noticed, a half a turn at most.

3- Unmask inclusion. There's a number of black cards in the deck that can be tossed aside, but you tend not to want to. If you already are on an explosive start, he can be pitched so you don't have to.

4- Uncounterable. This is clutch here. Breakthrough is the biggest bomb in the deck, and ultimately tends to get hit way more often than LED by good players. While you aren't drawing 4 right away, you ARE going to draw that one, because chances are they won't waste a Stifle on this guy.

5- Games 2 and 3. I tend to leave him in. Most games I'm not going to side in all 15, and between LED, DA, and combo pieces, I've usually got my 11 spells covered. That means this guy can stick around, and I'll have better chances of drawing into my answers. It's not much, but playing a 56 card deck when you NEED to hit answers is better than a 60.

And yes, removing the combo pieces (this includes DA and LED in most cases) is the typical move for games 2 and 3. They are so hellbent on stopping you from explosive combos that usually nuking their answers and Ichorid beats is all you need.

I would suggest at least trying Street Wraith in testing. I'm still not sold on entirely cutting Breakthrough, but at the same time, we're not running Study either, so I may make room for that. I personally still think DA is the worst blue spell in the deck, because a majority of the time you just can't cast it. I'll be doing more testing on which spells to cut, and when the list is doing more of what I want it to (less killing itself randomly), I'll probably post it.

You make some interesting points. Maybe Breakthrough could be cut. Im makes the deck more invulnerable which is the decks constant goal.

If Painters keeps getting big maindeck pyroblast will be strong against us. The deck needs to continue evolving.

I endorse your experiment. Ill try the changes myself.

[Waikiki]

So how would a list with both 4 street wraith and 3 unmask look like? Cause I dont seem to be able to fit all those cards in.

[DeathwingZERO]

The list I've been working on looks almost exactly like the list Anwar posted in his [Article]Unlocking Legacy - From Here to Eternity thread over in Format Development. The only change I know for sure is -4 Breakthrough +4 Street Wraith. I'm fairly sure we still have the 4th Coliseum, but that might actually be the same as his as well.

Sideboard is up in the air still, as it's all a metagame call. Mine is nearly exactly the same as his, except for the -1 Unmask +1 Ancient Grudge.

[BreathWeapon]

You know what, you're right, please stop playing LED and get other people not to play it either so I can steam roll you in the mirror.

kthxbye

Because the Ichorid vs Ichorid mirror is a relevant consideration ...

Ichorid has to be designed with the opponent's MD and SB hate in mind, if that means Ichorid has to dismiss the explosiveness of LED, Deep Analysis, Cephalid Coliseum and Breakthrough in favor of the consistency of Tireless Tribe, Careful Study and Brainstorm, then as Ichorid evolves to improve the post board games the Ichorid vs Ichorid match up normalizes.

DDD is sufficient against control and aggro-control, Putrid Imp or Tireless Tribe plus Careful Study or Brainstorm is sufficient against Goblins, so all LED accomplishes is racing Storm combo, which can be accomplished with Unmask, Leyline of the Void or Chalice of the Void etc.

I'm not arguing LED should be cut, but Extended Ichorid has merit, and either not MDing it or SBing it out are reasonable choices. The more you play the deck, the less you want to be in situations where you're forced to either run head long into Tormod's Crypt or not have the tools to maneuver around it.

With or with out LED, Dredge is overwhelming game 1.

[edgewalker]

I'm not arguing LED should be cut, but Extended Ichorid has merit,


No it doesn't, wanna know why? This isn't extended. Everyone needs to stop brining up anecdotal evidence from extended because it doesn't fit in legacy, our aggro and storm decks are faster, and our control decks have better control elements. I repeat this is not extended, so stop bringing it up.

I have enough consistency land wise with 12-13 plus LED. I mention LED in addition to the lands because it is a mana source in addition to lands, surprise! It also helps with explosiveness which is needed when most control decks back EE/Deed and goyf. Most control matches I've lost have been because I can't handle taking 4-8 a turn playing DDD.

I won't ever play tireless tribe, but I am considering unmask, just because it's a dirty card.

I believe we've reached an stalemate in the argument since you have a hard on for street wraith and I have a strange obsession with playing good cards. Obviously none of us are going to concede to the other.

EDIT: Also, the mirror is relevant since this deck is a DTB and does see a lot of play. I obviously wouldn't plan a sideboard around it other than leyline and since you are proposing a slower more "consistent" list, I can just race it.

[BreathWeapon]

You need to stop and re-evaluate the argument,

First I never advocated, nor will I ever advocate Street Wraith, second I'm not discussing Extended Ichorid vs Legacy Ichorid, because I have no experience with Extended Ichorid to begin with, but rather I'm discussing non-LED Ichorid vs LED Ichorid in this format or the "Extended" lists focusing on 1cc creature outlets and 1cc draw spells that don't require the "ALL IN!" commitment of Lion's Eye Diamond and Breakthrough.

We haven't reached a stalemate in the argument because there was never an argument to begin with, you dismissed all of the points other people made under the assumption that your points are self evident and indisputable. If you want to play LED based Ichorid, it's a valid choice, but that doesn't mean that people who play non LED based Ichorid are making an invalid choice. Some people just prefer to reduce the "Glass Cannon" aspect of the deck, and that requires a more staggered approach to discarding your hand and dredging your library than LED offers.

Go you own way, I couldn't care less.

[DeathwingZERO]

I pretty much have to agree with Breath's statements. You (Edgewalker) are bringing nothing to the side of LED other than "OMG I RACE YOU FTW!!". I'm sorry, that's just not true. LED is an explosive card, but in no way, shape, or form better than having an outlet like Tribe or Imp.

In fact, I would argue that the ONLY time I ever want to have LED openers is when I know for certain I won't see any of the following cards:

Leyline
Crypt
Fanatic
Stifle
EE
Deed

And this is assuming I'm on the play. The reason I say this is simple: Dredge IS inconsistent. Whether I'm dredging 6 or 24 on my first turn, that means nothing. The deck is nothing more than a statistical practical joke on the pilot, really.

I have never said that I endorse completely cutting LED. I also said I was never fully backing the Breakthrough-less approach. I'm testing these options, something you should probably look into yourself, before your statements continue to sound about as useful as half the 65 pages this thread.

The deck in it's whole is far from what I'd consider optimal. In fact, I'd say it's about 50-60% the way there. The main reason for this is the fact that there's no such thing as a universal list, and there's still nothing to base the original 60 cards as auto-includes. There's already been evolution in the sense of simplifying the combo (cutting back on the Flame Kin and Dread Returns), and changing up what you are dredging with.

In addition, the SB's are often tweaked for maximized metagame performances. There's no way to turn an explosive graveyard based combo deck into an explosive graveyard based combo deck with answers. Games 2 and 3 completely change, and a lot of the times they go very unfavorably for us.

I would suggest at least looking at other options, rather than completely denounce them because you are so dependent on a single 4 of to win your games rather than making the entire thing more streamlined and less "I hope to god my all-in hands are going to win".

[GreenOne]

In fact, I would argue that the ONLY time I ever want to have LED openers is when I know for certain I won't see any of the following cards:

Leyline
Crypt
Fanatic
Stifle
EE
Deed


I'm a noob with the deck.
I don't catch the stifle, why are you fearing it?

[Brehn]

In fact, against EE, Fanatic and Deed I'd love to see LED openers. No idea what you're referring to with "Stifle".


In fact, I would argue that the ONLY time I ever want to have LED openers is when I know for certain I won't see any of the following cards:

Leyline
Crypt
Force of Will + no other castable outlet in my hand


fixed.

[kicks_422]

While I still am on the fence regarding cutting LED, I don't think saying that it outraces opponents adds anything to the argument. This deck outraces opponents even without it anyway, and sometimes LED just slows me down instead of speeding the deck up when in a starting hand with wrong pieces. I could see the arguments for cutting it, and frankly they look much more believable whenc ompared to the arguments against cutting LED.

Stifle... For Cephalid Coliseum? Assuming that's where you put your LED mana into.

[deviant]

Albert Kyle, the "god-father of hate-resilient Vintage Ichorid" builds his Ichorid-lists starting from the sb, and aiming for the most resilinet 75 available. This is because you have so overwhelming g1 it does not matter if it becomes 5-10% worse: it's still in your favor. You just no longer lose terribly to those 10+ hate cards the opp. brings for games 2 and 3.

Now I understand that this is Legacy, but the same thing seems to be happening here: you (anwar) have started to use Unmask as an additional disruption while dropping "combo-pieces". Some people consider dropping LEDs and Breakthroughs in order to make the deck more resilient. This is the way to go imo, if only the replacements are good enough. We can't just mull to Bazaar here :(

I'm looking forward to what you all cook up here :)

This brings me to the only actual proposition I have: the DR targets.
Following Kyle's logic from vintage, I'd make the same changes here: Ancestor's Chosen.

I know this is nothing new, but bear with me:
Against control: whatever, you're not looking to dr anyways and you should just win.
Against combo: tendrils-based combo has hard time getting tendrils for 40+ if not looping with IGGy, which as a plan seems to be falling out of fashion. Also; usually you are a turn too slow to race the goldfish, so additional disruption is welcomed.
Against Aggro: dropping the combo makes you softer here, Chosen helps tremendously.

Now this is just throwing this out here (again), just so that someone who plays this deck more in Legacy and is trying to make the deck more resilient can try this out in a "new shell".

Also: Wispmare is incredibly good in Vintage: why no-one plays it in legacy? It destroys Leyline and can randomly beat for 1 in air. I've won games in vintage like that so don't try to tell me it's too slow.
Seems > Ray..

[Illissius]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is gaining a bunch of life with Ancestor's Chosen in any way superior to just ending the game by attacking your opponent with a lot of hasted Zombie tokens? (I can't imagine it being slots, with Ancestor's Chosen taking up one and Flame-Kin Zealot plus Cephalid Sage two -- not a huge difference). If anything is worthwhile as an alternative Dread Return target, I'd think it would be something like Woodfall Primus or Angel of Despair which can take out troublesome permanents which don't impede your graveyard but do impede you from winning -- Ghostly Prison, Elephant Grass, and the like.

[whitshadw8]

Hi. Bane of the Living.
I remember you from the Dredgeatog thread =D. Yeah, tht is all lol.
//
Ok:

Generally whenever I make alterations to the deck, I don't worry too much about counters (usually from Thres and It's the Fear). I know that Ichorid has a good match-up against those decks. This is why I don't really concern myself with Breakthrough, LED and Imp being countered because if they were countered I would be playing a deck is in my favor. DDD strategy and sideboard.

What I'm worried about most right now are bad matchups. As of right now I dislike Goblins. I disdain with a passion TES, Belcher, Stax variations and Painter. So when taking into consideration whether to maindeck 15/12lands and using Breakthrough, LED, Street Wraith, Unmask + Tireless Tribe I looked at my experiences (which hopefully will help this forum):

1st game with Goblins I generally love Breakthrough, LED and Golgari Gravetroll. I do not plan to have Street Wraith nor Unmask nor Tireless Tribe here since: I'm scared of losing life (read next sentence), I want thier creatures discarded not spells [concerning Unmask], and Tireless Tribe does not block enough creatures. Goblins kill awfully fast and thier Mogg Fanatic are super effective vs. Bridges...Game 2 I board Darkblast/such.

I played more games with TES to test myself after my last post here:
I'm always wishing to do 2-3 things here during the precious few turns I am alive: (1)Be faster than they are=> LED/more discard/lots of draw (2)Unmask / Therapy them (3) Kill that Dark Confidant => cause it annoys me lol -.-". I honestly thought about including in Unmask + Street Wraith so that I can mess up TES more but I'm afraid of losing valuable speed. Tireless Tribe=Putrid Imp here to me. Since Unmask + Street Wraith are good I may not have room for the soldier.

Against Belcher...
I pray for game 1. Game 2-3 I smile and pray a bit more. Cabal therapy/Unmask had a little love here to stall (thinking SW also to help Unmask cast quick + it can speed up dredge). Tireless Tribe doesn't give me the upper hand..rather have something else.

Playing against Stax is >.>`` .
1st game - if I am unlucky on the dice roll I can expect to find myself dealing with Trinisphere or Ghostly Prison 1st turn. Once Trinisphere is out I can forget LED/Unmask/Cabal Therapy/Tireless Tribe - I'm forced to DDD. Even if I had 15 lands in the deck to hard cast what I need=>SmokeStack will be around. Street Wraith is useful here for those Ichorids. If that dude casts Ghostly Prison 1st turn I forfeit 1st game. Games 2-3 seems not to really run in my favor...I end up drunk on coffee by the end of 3rd match everytime. I was able to once pull a 1 turn kill and that made my day.

I've only faced Painter's Servant out of all the variations of Painter decks out there. I must say that Unmask/ Therapy are very useful to me. Many times I usually get saved because I got rid of the Painter/Imperial Recruiter. Tireless Tribe is a nice addition but can be taken out for other cards => It's not like they have many creatures and Tireless Tribe = Putrid Imp to me. According to the person that I've spoken to that loves Painter, some ppl chose to maindeck Trinisphere, so I guess I'm lucky.
Games postboard usually find myself facing Silent Arbiter/Trinisphere with counter back up.

..................................................................

So, against all my bad matchups:

1) Tireless Tribe seems like an option that may not be needed.

2) Unmask is useful, but I find myself thinking that I'll be better if it was in Sideboard. My meta has a strong Goblin presence so I'm not maindecking that.

3) Street Wraith is alright. Though is uncounterable, it doesn't really matter to me Unless it's versus Painter (Thresh also but I don't struggle against that deck too often). Against all the matchups I listed here that I have trouble against, I find myself worrying more about my life rather than whether or not I will be able to cast a drawing spell. Since I'm not maindecking Unmask I won't be maindecking Street Wraith.

4) LED seems to be notable against Goblins, Belcher and TES. It is better than other options. Versus Threshold I must admit is usually gets countered but I never bother to cast a lot against those decks.

5) Breakthrough: I remember back then this was a replacement for Tolarian Winds. If this card is substituted with Street Wraith, as it seems to be suggested now, adding Unmask and Tolarian Winds would make sense. Don't get mad at me for this but I rather keep Breakthrough over Street Wraith cause drawing 4 for 1 mana is more elusive/powerful than drawing 6 for 2 mana. I can't really argue about this card cause I my opinions suck. I'm sure someone else can do better. Once Breakthrough goes, so does a couple of other cards because we have to make up for all that draw/discard.

//
I hope this helps. I'm not bias against or for any strategy. I just want to make my bad matchups more better.
//
EDIT:


Also: Wispmare is incredibly good in Vintage: why no-one plays it in legacy? It destroys Leyline and can randomly beat for 1 in air. I've won games in vintage like that so don't try to tell me it's too slow.
Seems > Ray..

I thought about this. Since I have rainbow lands I figure I might as well flashback Ray and Dread Return something else. In Vintage I remember Wispmare is used cause it's all colorless/manaless lands.

[deviant]

Umm.. In vintage manaless ichorid (the resilient one) plays the same rainbow lands you play here (8), and in addition it plays ~3 Petrifield Field.

Wispmares are meant to be hardcasted: you can't DR it with leyline on the table.

You can also use it to pay 1 mana for X zombies if you don't need it anymore.

I just don't see why Ray would be better, could someone elaborate please?

[spirit of the wretch]

Because it does something in your graveyard. When you board out the combo (and the DR) game two/three for enchantment removal Ray is just better, because you don't need to draw it. You can simply dredge until you hit it. This is useless against Leyline but hot against Moat/Humility/Propaganda/Ghotly Prison/Elephant Grass/Duelling Grounds

[DeathwingZERO]

In fact, against EE, Fanatic and Deed I'd love to see LED openers. No idea what you're referring to with "Stifle".

Stifle is a hardcore trick against Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin, either cutting you back bad enough that you can't fully combo out or can't attack them, giving plenty of time for them to EE @ 0 and wipe your board post-combo, thus neutering you to Ichorid beats (and generally dying to your own lack of a library). In essence, it basically Time Walk's them into being able to find an answer on their turn.

While it's not common, enough Thresh and Landstill matchups have proven this to be a very bad thing. Generally speaking in my meta though, Stifle has been cut by most builds lately, so it's threat isn't as bad as it once was, where some decks were maindecking it.

And yes, FoW should have also been on that list, but generally speaking the worst that happens when LED is countered is I have to draw into a new outlet. All the other spells can severely cripple the deck after ditching your hand to LED activations, that's what I was referring to.

EDIT: And as far as EE and Fanatic goes, if I'm on the play, I will ONLY keep a hand that will be able to Therapy/Unmask away the card, AND still be able to win within 2 turns at most. Otherwise I'll slow play them.

[deviant]

Because it does something in your graveyard. When you board out the combo (and the DR) game two/three for enchantment removal Ray is just better, because you don't need to draw it. You can simply dredge until you hit it. This is useless against Leyline but hot against Moat/Humility/Propaganda/Ghotly Prison/Elephant Grass/Duelling Grounds

Now we're speaking. As I said; I tend to play Ichorid only in Vintage (don't own LED's so no tournament play for me) and the "hate" there is a little different.
As a result I failed to remember that enchantment=Leyline is not true in this format.

About the Chosen vs. FKZ/Sage: You can't always bring back eleven zombies and swing for the kill. Especially aggro tends to just sac a fanatic, bolt one of their dudes or something. Chosen always give you something to work with along with the body.
And about the slots? Chosen would take 2+2/3. (2 chosen, 2-3 DR)
To be able to constantly combo, you need 2+2+4. Anything less makes you more inconsistent. (this is from Vintage-testing so a little grain of salt here: there you might need to powder-mull something away. But that shouldn't make too much of a difference)

Running 2-3 DR and one of FKZ and Sage seems really random to me. You can't really expect to have them when you need them. One other DR-target that I had terrible fun with was Sundering Titan. I'm sure this has been discussed, but along with the angel who can take out a land if need be, he is the most disruptive target available.
Again: if you are denied of zombies, he does do something when he comes into play, and he has a nice body to bring with him.

I'm sure these have all been discussed earlier, but if you are taking a new direction and moving away from the combo, the dr-targets should change also.

[DeathwingZERO]

I personally am not really willing to divert from the combo just yet, mostly because it's been so solid against everything game 1 that it just should stick around.

Siding out the combo (including DR's at times) means that new targets in the board may not be the best play. I have actually considered putting various "wish" targets in there, and have heavily considered Titan or Angel.

Titan just because he's pretty much larger than anything RGB(x) Survival and Landstill can cook up, and those tend to be my worst matches post board (having at minimum 2 different pieces of hate to try to beat), on top of the fact that they'll probably lose 2-3 lands when he hits due to their very unstable manabases.

Angel always seemed good because she flew. That seems to be a pretty cool thing, but my problem was always that she never gave the opponent a reason NOT to kill her. Titan on the board scares opponents, they don't want it leaving play. But something with flying that's not a very fast clock (in Ichorid terms) always seemed too slow on it's own. I never got around to testing her with the inclusion of SW for more consistent Ichorid beats, so maybe she will take a slot soon after all.

[Bane of the Living]

If you want to play LED based Ichorid, it's a valid choice, but that doesn't mean that people who play non LED based Ichorid are making an invalid choice.

If your opening yourself up to hate other than specific and narrow graveyard hate you are making an invalid choice. Playing PImps and Tribes open the deck up to Swords to Plowshares and Chalice of the Void. Playing Careful Study and Breakthrough opens you up to Pyroblast and REB's.

Making the deck more consistent isn't always improving it. Making it more invulnerable is. Ive said this so many times I want to smash my keyboard over this threads fucking face.


Maybe I'm missing something here, but why is gaining a bunch of life with Ancestor's Chosen in any way superior to just ending the game by attacking your opponent with a lot of hasted Zombie tokens? (I can't imagine it being slots, with Ancestor's Chosen taking up one and Flame-Kin Zealot plus Cephalid Sage two -- not a huge difference). If anything is worthwhile as an alternative Dread Return target, I'd think it would be something like Woodfall Primus or Angel of Despair which can take out troublesome permanents which don't impede your graveyard but do impede you from winning -- Ghostly Prison, Elephant Grass, and the like.

Gaining a bunch of life is pointless. Winning the game or not losing the game (Platinum Angel) is a much better option.



I just don't see why Ray would be better, could someone elaborate please?

Ray takes out Blood Moon (if cast off led) and more importantly Engineered Plague. There are many enchantments that can hit the table late game that a Ray in your yard can solve. The additional Leyline removal is never bad.


Stifle is a hardcore trick against Cephalid Sage and Flame Kin, either cutting you back bad enough that you can't fully combo out or can't attack them, giving plenty of time for them to EE @ 0 and wipe your board post-combo, thus neutering you to Ichorid beats (and generally dying to your own lack of a library). In essence, it basically Time Walk's them into being able to find an answer on their turn.


Are you Dread Returning at all before Therapy rapes your opponents hand? If your target gets Stifled its your fault not Dread Returns.

------------------------------------------------------
EE for 0, wrath of dog, pyroclasm and other bullshit are reasons the combo win remain important to the deck. Belcher and TES are bad match ups without the dread return combo.

The deck is not 50-60% developed. More like 95%. There are probably 4-8 movable cards in the deck. People that keep insisting radical cards like Tireless Tribe and removing LED just need to be ignored at this point. Many people unhappy with the list are incredibly unexperienced. Ichorid is not an easy deck to play.

If your having a problem beating goblins playtest much more. Therapy for Warchief if mogg hits the table. If they're a large part of your meta, which is odd at this day and age, keep Leylines in your board or consider maindecking them.

If you have issues with Threshold your not playing the matchup correctly. There is no excuse for losing this matchup at all. Slow rolling the deck until stripping the hand of counterspells is a very solid plan. The only reason you should be losing is if your throwing spells into counters and not naming goyf with therapy. Practice.

Remember above all else that this is a legacy forum. Ichorids strategy is completely different because it has led available to it. Vintage Ichorid is actually a turn slower because of this change. They dont have mana to defend themselves or cast Therapies. They rely far too much on Bazaar. Extended doesnt have led so they need to comprimise with more 1cc discard outlets. Chalice of the Void sees no play and allows the deck to rely on its one drops.

Think of Swords, Pithing Needle, Chalice, and Pyroblast. How much do you want each of them to effect you?

[Maagler]

The deck is not 50-60% developed. More like 95%. There are probably 4-8 movable cards in the deck. People that keep insisting radical cards like Tireless Tribe and removing LED just need to be ignored at this point. Many people unhappy with the list are incredibly unexperienced. Ichorid is not an easy deck to play.

QFT

I have been playing the deck for a while and have tested the extended version as well. IMHO the legacy version is stronger, and there is no reason to slow the deck down by taking out the lion's eye/deep analysis.

[BreathWeapon]

If your opening yourself up to hate other than specific and narrow graveyard hate you are making an invalid choice. Playing PImps and Tribes open the deck up to Swords to Plowshares and Chalice of the Void. Playing Careful Study and Breakthrough opens you up to Pyroblast and REB's.


So we shouldn't use Imp and Tribe because of a MD card that does little to nothing againt us and a SB card we can just DDD thru, and we shouldn't use Breakthrough and Careful Study because of REB? I don't see what realistic hate Imp and Tribe open the deck to short of a blind Pithing Needle, if anything you're make the deck more resilient to hate visa vi Tormod's Crypt.

This thread needs infinitely less hyperbole.

[DeathwingZERO]

The deck ISN'T 95% complete, because the sideboard is EVERYTHING at this point. RGBx Survival and 4c Landstill are easily the worst matchpus for this deck, hands down, and we're just not winning against those two decks by slow rolling.

If you give Survival time, they recur Fairies against you. This cripples any outs you have. They also have access to Thoughtseize, Leyline, and Extirpates or Jailer, depending on what they feel like having. Each of those can wreck you, because their clock is faster. I'd call this match probably a 45% for Ichorid post-board, mostly because you would need to see 2-3 anti-hate cards in your first few turns.

If you give Landstill time (which is exactly what you are advocating) they have Deed, EE, Crypt, counter magic, Extirpate, and Leyline, all of which will stop you cold. In the meantime, they are consistently beating you down with Factories and Goyfs, because you have no answers to them. I'm not even sure what I'd consider this matchup post-board, because I know I've had terrible times testing against it post-board. My runs were probably like 30-35%.

Stop trying to act like games 2 and 3 are easy. They aren't. You can't slowroll against a deck that can kill you in a number of turns, and you especially can't rely on dredging into answers at any given time against either, because Leyline is a 40% chance in their opening 7, and their chances don't drop considerably if they mull.

There's a reason Ichorid is lucky to pull a top 8 victory, an opponent having the nuts against you in games 2 and 3 is far more likely than your ability to answer them.

In conclusion, stop acting like you're the only player that's good with the deck. I've been working on this build ever since manaless Ichorid popped up in Vintage, and will continue to tweak the deck until I see it beating decks more often in games 2 and 3. If it means cutting out LED, keeping Breakthrough out, and "opening the deck up to more hate", then so be it.

As I see it, most of you that are advocating the Breakthrough + LED plan and not using Unmasks are basically scooping to FoW anyway, because your narrow sighted game plan lacks additional outs.

[Brehn]

If you give Survival time, they recur Fairies against you.


If you give Landstill time (which is exactly what you are advocating) they have Deed, EE, Crypt, counter magic, Extirpate, and Leyline, all of which will stop you cold.


and will continue to tweak the deck until I see it beating decks more often in games 2 and 3. If it means cutting out LED, keeping Breakthrough out, and "opening the deck up to more hate", then so be it.

Aren't you a little bit self-contradicting here, sir?

[Pulp_Fiction]

To be honest I don't see the contradiction. Deathwing's point is lets make the deck super consistent and able to reliably fight through all your opponent's hate cards in games 2-3.

@Bane of the Living: Have you tested the Extended builds with Tireless Tribe? I recommend it but keep playing whatever build you want while other people in this thread try to make the deck better. As far as Chalice of the Void goes ....... I am not sure what the problem is with a CotV @ 1. It shuts off some shit ... ok. Thats why the deck runs 15 lands, cast Breakthrough for 1 and start dredging. And why would Swords hurt this deck at all? PImp and Tribe allow you to discard you hand regardless so who cares if they die? That is what makes the Tribe good, it is reliant on nothing and it never hurts having it but if you don't it generally won't affect much. Basically it can help a LOT but not having it doesn't affect the deck much (no way to say this without sounding redundant) but people who have played the Extended builds know what I'm talking about.

[whitshadw8]

I'm getting confused, there seems to be more and more added to the debate:

No one is saying don't use Unmask. I was the only one that said I won't use it maindeck due to my meta (but I'm thinking Sideboard).

The issues about Extirpate, Engineeried Explosives, Faerie Macabre, Pernicious Deed and Jailer remains large problem whether or not we use LED+Breakthrough or anything else that makes the Ichorid more consistent.

Regarding Landstill I feel that DeathwingZERO, what you said was exactly right==> we shouldn't be giving them enough time. This is y I think LED + Breakthrough should remain in Ichorid rather than Tireless and/or Manashort(this was mentioned before) + 3 lands.

Against Survival things I know are tough. Faerie Macabre is going to be a given, so the only answer I can come up against that is to be fast. Worst case senario 1st turn they will have a LotV, play Thoughtseize and Tormod's Crpyt with a a Faerie Macabre back-up. It's crazy and my head is spinning. However if they do that this means that they are also slower...

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm hardly self-contradicting. Running Breakthrough is all-or-nothing. That's your game 1. Games 2 and 3, I hope to god you're siding Breakthrough out, because all-or-nothing = dead card in hand facing LotV, and you should ALWAYS consider that the #1 piece of hate you will need to answer, as it's turn 0. Even if it's a 40% chance, it's a 40% chance you need to DIG, not explode.

This is another reason I advocate Street Wraith. While you are on a clock, you NEED to see more cards. Deep isn't going to do you any good. Breakthrough isn't going to do you any good. Coliseum isn't going to do you any good. What do you have left in the "traditional" build to find your answers then? Topdecking? Have fun. I'll play my 56 card deck, thanks. Your answers are typically instants, so why not give yourself the option to try finding them on your opponent's turn when they are most viable? Also, it's 2 life @ 0cc. Did I ever mention that?

I'm not saying "Run my build, it's superior". I'm saying "Stop acting like this deck can't POSSIBLY get better", because saying this deck is good enough right now is just lying to yourself. If this deck WAS as good as people say it is post-SB, it'd be seeing a LOT more play, because people are practically saying it's still favorable post board "if you know how to pilot the deck". That's completely untrue. It's STILL an uphill battle, and game 1 still isn't an auto-win every match. This obviously means more can be done.

[Brehn]

You're talking about racing Survival's hate and Landstill's hate and boarding out Breakthrough, the card that's used for racing, at the same time. This is a giant contradiction.

Also, RGBSA with Leyline? wat?

EDIT: To contribute something productive - digging for answers is fine and all, but I prefer to have a virtually increased answer count. Try playing 3 Gambles in the board, they help.

[kicks_422]

When the opponent has a Leyline in play and possibly an Extirpate in hand, will you cast Breakthrough? No.

You can't "race" when you can't win.


I'm saying "Stop acting like this deck can't POSSIBLY get better", because saying this deck is good enough right now is just lying to yourself.

I agree. There's still much work to be done. I'm interested with your inclusion of Street Wraiths though... How were you able to fit them in? Can you post your list?

[Mayk0l]

Still, nice and all, but cutting LED means throwing away the combo-MU. Tireless Tribe does nothing there.
Does nobody care about the combo MU? The only argument I've heard is 'if there's combo, don't play Ichorid' which is a silly argument at best.

What would a deck with Unmask look like? Does it make running Street Wraith inevitable? Or is the list viable if it's standard but with Unmask SB?

[Dark_Cynic87]

I agree with a lot of what you said bane, but the one thing I HIGHLY disagree with is the Platinum>Ancestor. Ancestor gains you a LOT of life as a one-time effect and they must have an answer for it right then. As most experienced players know, life doesn't matter as long as you have some if you are a combo player. Having said this, Platinum Angel is not a one-time effect. It's a flyer, and a 4/4. Thats a 5 turn time-clock without ichorid beats (obviously you will have these GY hate notwithstanding). Plus, if you Dread Platinum, you are already not doing well. Like DeathwingZero said about Britney Spears, she doesn't give an opponent a reason NOT to kill her, which makes her a non-answer.

Basically, the life-gain is like playing a Platinum for us. Gives you life along with zombie tokens, which will almost always be enough. This gives them a longer clock and you blockers. This is nice against goblins (Wastes and Ports + a clock hurt us BAD. I know some people run Needles, but it's difficult to hit both, or even the right one). It's also good against TES and FT.

Against Landstill I've always had better luck going Ichorid Beats with a Chalice @ 1 to stop their Swords. Game 2 and 3 of course, game 1 you go for the nutz as obviously you shouldn't know what they are playing yet.

Also, whoever asked how they play LftL in here is really not thinking. LED=green mana. They get their wasteland on, you can handle it. This is also good with Dakmor Salvage. With Life from the Loam and D. Salvage you can have 4 lands available. This is also where free dredge comes in handy (Street Wraith).

One last thing. I haven't tested it because honestly its a reach, but I've been thinking about Academy Ruins. It's an LED each turn with an extra U each turn which often is equivalent to 2 lands, and it's a way to not deck. Obviously it's only useable if you use loam. It shouldn't be considered as anything more than a one-of.

These are just my thoughts.

Pce,

--DC

[Pulp_Fiction]

@ Mayk: If you are only going to echo yourself (because no one else is) please stop posting in the thread. Your agrument is "fine just throw away the combo match" you make it seem like as long as Dredge is running LED it is super fast and will beat Belcher, TES, FT, or SI every time. Apparently you have never played this deck because that is not the case at all. "Just race" is not the way to win the combo match and Dredge does not win turn 1 much at all, maybe 1 in 30 games or so (out of the 3ish tournaments I have taken LED Dredge to or any of the playtesting and goldfishing I have done I have NEVER had a turn 1 kill, damn Narcomoebas) rarely does it ever win on turn 1. And decks like TES and FT consistently kill on the exact same turns that Dredge does 2-4. Unmask will help but Chalice will help more. Run Chalice in the SB and game 1 try and mull into a hand with Therapy. Anwar wrote an entire article on www.starcitygames.com about Dredge and he runs (I think) 3x Unmask in the main.

@ Dark Cynic: Really?? Loam?? Why would you ever want to cast Loam? Your opponent gets you in a Wastelock how will Dakmor Salvage help? I'm setting up a situation here: you have 1x land in play and LED, break LED to flashback DA, dredge Loam, dredge something else, cast Loam getting back 3 lands, play a land ..... EOT opponent Wastelands your land, then Loams his Wasteland back and kills your other land or Sinkhole etc. Why would you ever want to cast Life from the Loam? Also, Dakmor Salvage is terrible, you can run it if you really want to but the fact that is adds useless colorless mana (to cast Loam I suppose) and comes into play tapped ... and it dredges for 2? This is supposed to be good against Wasteland? Academy Ruins ..... in a deck that wants to mill itself every turn for the most it possibly can why would you want to draw LEDs; and again ... the colorless mana thing.

@ Deathwing: Please post your list so we can discuss Street Wraith and begin testing. I am very interested in the idea of free, instant dredge (although I doubt instant will be relevant .. you never know) but I am wondering how it affects the speed of the deck.

On another note, should we start a separate thread for the people who want to discuss the more Extended builds of Dredge and how to improve on it in the Legacy metagame or should we just keep the discussion here?

[deviant]

Not going to argue about these things with you Bane, but the Vintage Ichorid is not slower. Those kind of statements make the rest of your (possibly valid) points look dubious.

The balls-to-the-walls-combo-version of Vintage Ichorid goldfishes on turn 2-3.
(.. but is vulnerable as fuck postboard / to lucky draws.)

Just saying.

Also: Playing Unmasks (I'd love to find room for 4..) makes the combo-mu much better. Long is faster than Ichorid in vintage, so you try to bring them down to your level (unmask,therapy,chalice,lotv..).
Same logic - if you can't race them, make them slower.

[Dark_Cynic87]

No, I said nothing about wastelock. I'm not responsible for your assumptions. I said wasteland, not WasteLOCK. For wastelocks you should just win turn 2 before it becomes an issue.

For ruins, I said it was iffy. However, it can be a metagame use for small tournies that you know are gonna have brainstorm or scepter-chant/brain freeze/random-chant. Decking sux.

As for the colorless mana, you only NEED one mana for everything but DA, and that is...omg colorless, as is loam. Also, I said as a one-of with both loam and with ruins. Loam could possibly be a 2-of in your board. Personally, I run a Salvage MD. It's good. It requires a setup turn, but it often wins me the game when it untaps.

SW in the board for boarding out Breakthroughs. I keep Therapies as I know my meta thoroughly (as I built everyone's lists here), and I know what to name. However, if I were to run this @ a bigger tourney, say GenCon, I'd probably go the Unmask route.

The other day my buddy built a crap-list just to beat me. Storm combo-ish, but "kill-spell" was Mindslaver. The creep got it out turn 2 and activated on the play turn 2. He ran through my library, got all my moebas out, 2x Ichorids, and tossed them to grab a thug with Dread, sacced thug and 2 Ichorids to grab another thug, put an ichorid on top of my library. I had 5 or 6 cards left. He beat me...Propaganda turn 3...and I had no Dread Returns...It was hilariously shitty.

Pce,

--DC

[Twoshirty]

Hello there everyone. This is my first post here but i think i have some wonderful insights to share with you all. This deck is amazing, and I have been playing it in one incarnation or another scince it top 8'ed at worlds. For reference here is my build :

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephallid Colisium

4x Putrid Imp
2x Golgari thug
4x Narcomeaba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Ichorid
1x Flame Kin Zealot
1x Cephallid sage
4x Golgari grave troll

2x Careful study
4x Cabal therapy
4x Breakthrough
4x Bridge From Below
2x Deep analysis
2x Dread return

2x Chrome Mox
4x Lions eye diamond

SB:
4x Tormods Crypt (I Think I want chalice or needle here)
4x Chain of vapor
3x Darkblast
2x Ray of revelation
2x Ancient Grudge

Sorry to just jump in like this (especally in the midst of such heated discussion) But I just thought I would share some of my opinions about the deck. The thread is called ichorid combo, and it does have a combo in it, but i am not sure thats correct cause its more like synergy if you ask me. But I digress, Allow me to share some card choices.

12 land + 2 mox + 4 led = 18 mana sources make the deck amazingly consistent as far as having the land you need to cast spells or even creatures if need be. although honestly i feel the moxses could be something else (they were careful study, but im thinking about trying 2 street wraith in the spot)

4 led + 4 putrid imp + 2 careful study + 4 breakthrough = 14 discard enablers which almost gaurantees me something to get the ball rolling (or the cards turning whatever)

breakthrough and led are amazing. Removing them from the deck for street wraith or tolarian winds or whatever does not seem like a good idea imho because i like the idea of either pitchin my hand for three mana (good w/ coliseum and deep anal) or drawling four for one U. alot of time i find myself keeping hands w/ break through a land and no dredger because four cards down is fairly deep and you should find one.

2 deep anal 2 dread return. i have never once had to cast either spell more than twice in a game and these numbers feel right to me. I usually always have at least one of the two if i need it and have not had a problem getting it.

one thing i am not sure about is the number of dredgers. 10 seems like enough but i almost wish i had 11 or 12 sometimes, but when i make the change i always hate it so 10 is it for now unless one of you guys has an opinion about why more would be better.

umm thats all I can think of to say right now so if you guys would give me feed back, maybe even try my build and help a fat sweaty kid out it would be greatly appriciated thank you.

[Mayk0l]

@ Mayk: If you are only going to echo yourself (because no one else is) please stop posting in the thread. Your agrument is "fine just throw away the combo match" you make it seem like as long as Dredge is running LED it is super fast and will beat Belcher, TES, FT, or SI every time. Apparently you have never played this deck because that is not the case at all. "Just race" is not the way to win the combo match and Dredge does not win turn 1 much at all, maybe 1 in 30 games or so (out of the 3ish tournaments I have taken LED Dredge to or any of the playtesting and goldfishing I have done I have NEVER had a turn 1 kill, damn Narcomoebas) rarely does it ever win on turn 1. And decks like TES and FT consistently kill on the exact same turns that Dredge does 2-4. Unmask will help but Chalice will help more. Run Chalice in the SB and game 1 try and mull into a hand with Therapy. Anwar wrote an entire article on www.starcitygames.com about Dredge and he runs (I think) 3x Unmask in the main.


I keep repeating myself because nobody addresses the obvious problems cutting LED brings in the combo MU. Saying that I have never played this deck before is complete bs, I've played this deck a lot, and I play in a combo heavy environment. I simply don't see how cutting the deck down to the Extended version will help Ichorids viability in Legacy in any way.

Also, saying that I'm suggesting that with LED, Ichorid can consistenly beat combo is a gross and blatant exaggeration. Worse even, if you actually read the words I have been 'echoing' all this time you would find that I am constantly saying that TES and the like are a very difficult MU, and that the inclusion of LED gives you speed you desperately need. Playing LED makes the combo MU stronger, which is why I'm advocating it.

But you're right, I guess I've got my point across and there's no need to repeat it, so I'll lay low with the combo-thing and try to look at it from different angles. What I'm trying to do is improve my skills and knowledge of this deck, but up to this point I've yet to be impressed by the extended build.

About the 'just race'-thing, it does not equal 'turn 1 kill', and I never said this. 'Racing' entails disrupting combo before they can go off, which basically comes down to getting as many Cabal Therapies into your graveyard as fast as you can. This can only be done through dredging (and mulliganing), which is done faster with LED.

Thanks for the tip on Anwar's Dredge article, I will surely read it.

On the DR targets; I dislike Platinum Angel. The Chosen seems better because it's a solid card against almost all of the archetypes out there. It's a blast against Tendrils/EtW, it's a blast against Aggro and it's a blast against Control. Basically it's solid against any deck that's not out to mill you. All the mentioned decks have a good way of dealing with Platinum Angel, even post-board as a lot of those decks run Burning Wish.

[DeathwingZERO]

Here's my list:

Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Creatures
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-troll
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
3 Unmask

Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City Of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


Sideboard:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Chain Of Vapor
2 Ray Of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge


If it looks familiar, it's because it is. This is the exact same list that Anwar has been piloting for a while now, with -4 Breakthrough/+4 Street Wraith in the main, and -1 Unmask/+1 Grudge in the sideboard. I believe the Coliseum count on my list is at 4, though not entirely certain. The deck isn't with me, so I can't look at it.

Both my buddy (Linkxwing, avid 4c Landstill player) and I haven't missed Breakthrough in the least. On paper it seems the deck slows down a whole lot by not having those 4 cards at once, but in reality it doesn't lose speed at all. The main reason for this is twofold:

1- Ichorids come back more often, and faster. This speeds up your use of Therapy/Dread Returns even if you haven't hit multiple Narcomoebas.

2- Instant speed dredge enabler, or digger. At one point I drew into an opening hand of this: Wraith, Wraith, Troll, Imp, Mine, Coliseum, Therapy. Before my second turn's draw step I had 14 cards in the graveyard already, off casting Imp. Only difference here is that I also still held Coliseum and Therapy in hand.

While the "godhand" of being able to activate Coliseum turn 2 -> win isn't always the case, this is a regular scenario with Imp and Wraith. I discard when I want, and I dredge when I want. I'm not playing on my turn anymore. I'm playing when my opponent thinks their safe. They see me drop Imp, pass the turn, and they drop their land and say "go". All of a sudden my graveyard is packed, and Ichorids are coming out to beat on their faces, because Wraith's have already done their job and are happy to be tossed from game for recursion.

The lack of Breakthrough is a hypothetical lack of speed. Trust me, I've tested this build for quite some time, and I've taken notes. Breakthrough is awesome when you already have the dredge set up for a win (2-3 dredgers available), and mediocre at best doing it blind, because it rips your hand apart and could very well miss dredging more than once.

Street Wraith is consistent. Not only does he allow for dredge, he allows for Ichorid when you need them to come back for faster Bridge activations, or can be pitched to Unmask without the risk of losing Therapy or a Dredge piece. If you already have a really solid start, tossing this guy out to Unmask turn 1 is awesome. Now you know what to call Therapy on, you know how fast (or slow) you can play, AND you haven't given up what's in your hand. And what's wrong with the combo player now having all the information? I LOVE THAT.

Again, I'm saying what's working for me right now. I know my meta has Survival builds that are tuned against me, and I know I'm going to see at the very least 1 version of 4c Landstill. I believe this branch of Ichorid is better vs those kinds of matchups. I will be keeping Wraiths in, right now it just so happens that it's at the cost of Breakthrough. I may switch that and instead nuke DA's, 1 Breakthrough and 1 LED. I dunno. That's what the testing is for.

[Dr.Kokusho]

Heres another list to stimulate discussion

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephallid Colisium

4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari thug
3x Narcomeaba
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Ichorid
1x Flame Kin Zealot
1x Cephallid sage
4x Golgari grave troll
4x Street Wraith

4x Careful study
4x Cabal therapy
4x Breakthrough
3x Bridge From Below
3x Unmask
2x Dread return


SB:
3x Gamble
4x Chain of vapor
1x LED
2x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline

For the card choices

3x Moebas, Ichorids, Bridges
- Well I believe that you should never include 4-ofs of cards that you do not want to see 2 of in your opening hand. This is especially true for narcomoebas and for the others as well especially if the only dscard outlet available is careful study. Their lesser number is offset by the fact that it is easier to get a healthy graveyard earlier by increasing the number of useable cards in the opening hand

-The overall speed is reduced by 1 to 2 turns but it is still possible to make turn 1 kills with unmask and breakthrough. But again this is compensated by having increased usable cards in the opening hand

As for the SB choices

Gambles - They can easily take place of breakthrough in games 2-3 since they can either fetch for anti hate cards such as vepor if needed, or they can fetch other combo enablers such as discard outlets , colliseum or a dredger if ever the opponent did not get hate in the opening hand. There is a risk of discarding the desired card though but then again playing the deck is a big risk in itself

Leyline for other graveyard using decks. And finally chain of vapor is enough to get rid of annoying permamnents that an opponent has

[Maagler]

ok so I just had a crazy idea. I saw a Cephaild Breakfast deck a while back that could turn into a life deck to beet graveyard hate. I also saw one that could turn into a thres build. so I was thinking; would there be a way to do the same thing with this deck?

Here is my thought (please don't flame me for this) what if we turned the deck into an aggro control deck post side. put goyf in side and keep unmask in main maybe add thoiughtsieze and a couple lands.

I dont know just a spurt of inspiration, I am 90% sure it will not work.

maybe something like this:


// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [TO] Ichorid
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
3 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
2 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [OD] Careful Study
3 [MM] Unmask

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [LOR] Thoughtseize
SB: 4 [A] Bayou



or we could fit the painter servant combo in side:

4x painter
4x stone
3x gamble
4x enlightened tutor

[Bongo]

I've gone down to 12 lands, but that is only because of Street Wraith. You're basically playing a 56 card deck, and the odds of drawing one of those 12 lands is high enough to justify cutting a few lands.
I don't want to spam the thread with decklists, but my current testing version is:

4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study

4x Ichorid
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Unmask

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug

4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

Black cards: 32

Unmask has been very good in testing, and I highly recommend running all four copies maindeck. They solve many problems preemptively, and can serve as an additional discard-outlet when desperate. With 32 black cards, you should have enough cards to pitch.

I run the full dredge suite with 12 dredgers. This has several advantages: you can chain dredges more easily and you have enough cards to remove for Ichorid & Unmask. In rare situations you're able to cast Thug and do some Narcomoeba/Therapy/Dread Return tricks.
Street Wraith has also been quite good.

I can see the points against Breakthrough, but they've been too useful to cut (yet). If you have enough mana post-board, they can also be used to dig for your anti-hate bullets.

[Bane of the Living]

So we shouldn't use Imp and Tribe because of a MD card that does little to nothing againt us and a SB card we can just DDD thru, and we shouldn't use Breakthrough and Careful Study because of REB? I don't see what realistic hate Imp and Tribe open the deck to short of a blind Pithing Needle, if anything you're make the deck more resilient to hate visa vi Tormod's Crypt.

This thread needs infinitely less hyperbole.

Pithing Needle doesnt do little against you. If your playing some gay version with Tireless Tribes with PImps you have a ton of targets. I like having Coliseum be the only target for the most part. Chalice of the Void is decent against us actually. No discarding your opponents hand, no Breakthrough if you DONT see two lands. Often times if the Chalice is dropped by Dragon Stompy it's followed by 3sphere so DDD wont work well. Blood Moon is also a problem for Breakthrough. DA can be cast off LED still.

This thread needs infinitely less extended cards.

BtW goblins and goyf sly are the decks worst matchups. Survival is a cakewalk. Landstill can be difficult if they come prepared and you side the wrong anti-hate.



@Bane of the Living: Have you tested the Extended builds with Tireless Tribe? I recommend it but keep playing whatever build you want while other people in this thread try to make the deck better. As far as Chalice of the Void goes ....... I am not sure what the problem is with a CotV @ 1. It shuts off some shit ... ok. Thats why the deck runs 15 lands, cast Breakthrough for 1 and start dredging. And why would Swords hurt this deck at all? PImp and Tribe allow you to discard you hand regardless so who cares if they die? That is what makes the Tribe good, it is reliant on nothing and it never hurts having it but if you don't it generally won't affect much. Basically it can help a LOT but not having it doesn't affect the deck much (no way to say this without sounding redundant) but people who have played the Extended builds know what I'm talking about.

Ive played the extended lists for extended. Not against legacy decks. I shouldnt have to tell you to stop comparing the two since other people have said it plenty of times. We already decided while Gamble was up for contention that 8 ways to cast a non blue or black spell is idiocy. Tireless Tribe falls within that idiocy.

Im not completely against playing PImp, his numbers should be determined by how much hate for him you expect. Opening the deck up to pyroblast, chalice, swords, and needle are bad ideas. Deep Analysis is still good enough to keep but Breakthrough gets countered by painters, goyf sly, and goblins. Why make the matchups worse?

Swords shouldnt be an answer to your discard outlet. It is but it shouldn't be, so I stray away from reliance on the one drop pitch your hand guys.

All in all Im glad people are finally listening to me about Street Wraith. The only issue with the card is finding space and cutting breakthrough does sound best.

[C.P.]

For last 6 month or so, I was testing Mystical tutor in the Sideboard. I know gamble gives the card right away, but it still has its fault, and my personal hate for randomness made me consider mystical instead of Gamble.

So, at first it was just substitude game that is a turn slower than gamble. Predict was rarely played in my metagame, so it was virtually non-issue. And it turns out, that the card gives interesting tweaks and possibilities to the deck.

they are:

1. I prefer UB manabase over 5c. and mystical tutor helps on this. Also, UB manabase can give you wonder that wins mirror and A basic land, if you choose to do so. Basic land alongside Darkmor salvage, while it seems to be a bad choice, gave me a reasonable chance to expect 2 mana in the face of Wasteland and co.

2. Now I could actually afford a one-of wish target that does not play from GY. This included Tolarian Wind, Echoing Truth, Darkblast and any other things you may want to play. also, the fact that the tutor puts things in top and dredge gave me unexpected wins sometimes, by finding a key flashback spells needed for the win.

3. Street Wraith became funny after the tutors found space. Suddenly, it became a bit better, as it mindfucked your opponents and made tutor bit faster. And when I tried a failed version with FoW, it did very fun things. Although it proved to be to cool to be good, I may have missed something.


So tell me what you think of Mystical Tutor, be it MB or SB, and the possibility it spawns.

[DeathwingZERO]

I will fully admit I hadn't thought of the possibility of running Mystical, but seeing as it digs for all the castable answers, I can see it being very helpful. It's especially effective with Ray and Grudge, since they can be flashbacked after Leyline is gone. I'll definitely have to look into testing that.

I'm also considering running into a solid UB build, and not using Ray or Grudge, just bounce. It may end up solidifying the manabase by making it less disrupted via quick Moon effects or early Wastelands, and if you are only working with bounce you don't need the 5c lands that either die off or kill you slowly. Another thing worth looking into I suppose, even though you lose the efficiency of destruction spells and are usually forced to go off immediately to keep them from recasting any of it. The Wonder tech sounds pretty cool too. Being able to beat face with flying Ichorids/zombies or Grave-Trolls is quite a bit to consider.


Pithing Needle doesn't do little against you. If your playing some gay version with Tireless Tribes with PImps you have a ton of targets. I like having Coliseum be the only target for the most part. Chalice of the Void is decent against us actually. No discarding your opponents hand, no Breakthrough if you DONT see two lands. Often times if the Chalice is dropped by Dragon Stompy it's followed by 3sphere so DDD wont work well. Blood Moon is also a problem for Breakthrough. DA can be cast off LED still.

BtW goblins and goyf sly are the decks worst matchups. Survival is a cakewalk. Landstill can be difficult if they come prepared and you side the wrong anti-hate.

Im not completely against playing PImp, his numbers should be determined by how much hate for him you expect. Opening the deck up to pyroblast, chalice, swords, and needle are bad ideas. Deep Analysis is still good enough to keep but Breakthrough gets countered by painters, goyf sly, and goblins. Why make the matchups worse?

Swords shouldn't be an answer to your discard outlet. It is but it shouldn't be, so I stray away from reliance on the one drop pitch your hand guys.

All in all Im glad people are finally listening to me about Street Wraith. The only issue with the card is finding space and cutting breakthrough does sound best.

I would very much like to disagree about Goblins being a tougher matchup than the black splash Survival. Goblins have ONE card that neuters your Bridges, and the deck already sides Needles against them. If you stop Fanatic, you outrace Goblins and win like normal. However, outplaying Survival, Thoughtseize, Extirpate/Leyline, and Faerie Macabre is a MUCH harder run. Ask Anwar, in his matchup against Quicksilver at the DLD he had to mull to multiple pieces of answers, AND still race. I'd say just because of their maindeck and sideboard combination this is infinitely harder than Goblins or Goyf Sligh, regardless of their clock. Again though, this is my personal view, and I've only tested against R/G goblins, not the black splash variants. And I've already listed the hate I typically see from 4c Landstill, which is just a bitch in general. The deck post-board is practically TUNED against Ichorid. Also, Chalice is "meh" at best vs any version packing 3-4 Unmasks. Not only can you rip it from them opening hand, but Cabal Therapy serves as being only a zombie enabler now, it doesn't matter if it's countered anymore. Not to mention having discard outlets at 0cc, 1cc, and a land, they have some pretty tough choices on what to drop it at.

As for Wraith, I've been trying to get Link to put it in our Legacy build ever since I saw Ichorid popping up in Vintage. It really puzzled me why nobody ran him, especially counting this deck's speed is arguably just as fast as Vintage, and he's pretty resilient in the face of countermagic. I'd say it's taken a long time to get people to actually start looking at him in the correct light, but there's still work to be done as far as what he replaces.

I'm almost never seeing Needle come out against me, but even if they do name Imp, you can ditch in response to it's casting, and the damage is typically done by then. I'd be much happier seeing an opponent ONLY siding in Needle, since it's the easiest piece of hate to beat, same with StP. You can still dredge around it, and you still can draw into card 8 to discard, since you'd be going second (most likely). It's very easy playing around that card, even with Imp. To be honest, knowing my build I'd almost say it's safer calling Coliseum anyways, since it's so much more destructive to nullify the card draw capabilities than the discard ones. And you'd be surprised how much life you can take down having a flying 2/2 constantly pinging from turn 2 on. Between PImp and Narcomoebas, usually recurring a couple Ichorids is enough to swarm them in games 2 and 3, so I gotta give them credit when due on that.

And as for your "opening up to hate" logic, damn near every spell that isn't a dredge card or 4cc is "hate-able". I'm curious what you consider to be more resilient than having more than 1 out (LED + DA), seeing as you've now listed Coliseum, PImp, Tribes, Therapy, Breakthrough, and Bridge's as "liabilities". You've pretty much taken apart the whole deck, which leaves it with nothing more than the Dredge mechanic and some flashback spells. You do open up new avenues for the opponent to slow you, but in no way are you giving them complete access to wrecking you, as all the spells they would need to beat you are basically only found in Landstill, which I still say is the hardest of all matches to win.

[edgewalker]

sooo we're skipping back to the first drafts of the ichorid decks now? Lets just add Ashen Ghoul too instead of bridge, they can't be removed when the opponent loses a dude and they stick around unlike ichorid.

[DeathwingZERO]

sooo we're skipping back to the first drafts of the ichorid decks now? Lets just add Ashen Ghoul too instead of bridge, they can't be removed when the opponent loses a dude and they stick around unlike ichorid.

I'm seriously wondering if you've added anything relevant to the thread in the past ten pages or so. Your sarcasm would probably be appreciated elsewhere, I imagine...

As for first drafts, I'm not sure what they really looked like anyway. I went from Vintage Ichorid straight into the 5c Legacy version that was so coveted about a year ago. I've heard of variations that used random and off the wall things, but none sound downright worse than what's going on right now with the lists.

Does anybody have a decent UB list that would make best use of the Mystical/Wraith attempt? I'd like to look into that in comparison to what I've got going on.

[C.P.]

Does anybody have a decent UB list that would make best use of the Mystical/Wraith attempt? I'd like to look into that in comparison to what I've got going on.


Let's start from my old List, one without anything too radical.




4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
3 Deep Analysis

3 Putrid Imp
3 Street Wraith
(or 2/2/2 split among Imp, Wraith and Study. or any configuration with these cards. Or 3/2 and a Wonder sometimes 4 and Wonder and a Land.)

4 Breakthrough
4 LED

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug (was Dblast at one point)



4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Darkmor Salvage
4 Fetch
3 Underground Sea
1 Island


It's 61 for some reason, I think I forgot something here. I'll get back with exact list later.

For SB, the more important part of the deck:


3 Mystical Tutor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Tolarian Wind
1 Echoing Truth
2 Darkblast


So it looked like just a normal Ichorid with some funky SB.

[DeathwingZERO]

So let's see, if I were to make some changes and merge the lists, a preliminary look would be:

Lands:12
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
(I probably wouldn't rely heavily on fetches here just to keep maximum resilience against Moon and Waste effects, since nearly everything is single core, so an U.Sea off the draw would work best. I think this would need testing to establish)

Dredge Outlets:8
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp

Dredge:11
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
(I like the 11 card dredge engine, plus it gives a little more to work with spell-wise, though a singleton Dark Blast is probably not out of the question).

Disruption:7
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask (maybe a 4th, if I can fit it. I'd love to run 4 to make my opening hand that much tougher to beat)

Draw:6
4 Street Wraith
2 Deep Analysis

Dredge based-goodies:12
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid

Combo:4
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Darkblast
1 Echoing Truth
1 Unmask

I'll start testing it.

[loop]

Your argument that we need more duals than fetches for maximum blood moon / wasteland resilience eludes me... since fetches, you know, fetch those 2 basics you run if needed...

Edit: Nevermind, you may have meant something else. I'm confused about that sentence.

[kicks_422]

4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study

4x Ichorid
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Unmask

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug

4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
4x Street Wraith

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

In rare situations you're able to cast Thug and do some Narcomoeba/Therapy/Dread Return tricks. Street Wraith has also been quite good.

I don't see any Dread Returns. Are they really cut from the deck? Is going one whole turn slower by cutting the Dread Return combo worth it to pack Unmask? I could see the reasoning for cutting LED though, if you already are running Unmask.

[C.P.]

3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp


Trust me, you'll hate to see that Swamp. It is never good enough to make it into the deck. I'd just be running Island.

[DeathwingZERO]

Your argument that we need more duals than fetches for maximum blood moon / wasteland resilience eludes me... since fetches, you know, fetch those 2 basics you run if needed...

Edit: Nevermind, you may have meant something else. I'm confused about that sentence.

I admit the sentence was a little off, but basically I'd rather have the 4th U.Sea and 1/1 on basics for making sure I get reliable early mana, without being completely vulnerable to Waste/Moon & Needle. Though to be fair, Needle will probably never name a land. I'd be tempted to play the 4th just for bad players to call them *grins* Also, I still want to deck my opponent every time I hear "Stifle" when trying to crack a fetch. I swear to god it's like getting kicked in the balls, then videotaped while puking from the shock.

And I may be agreeing with you, C.P, on the Island instead of the Swamp. I'm very afraid though that if I rely solely on Fetch + U.Sea to cast the PImp and Therapy, I lack consistency and resilience in exchange for more reliability to cast answers, which may make both pre and post side games a little tougher. I'm assuming though that both on paper and in testing I'll find neither to be true, and both basics to come up very little. I am thinking that between 1 Island, 3 Coliseum (still wanting to get that 4th since draw is kinda tight), and 4 U.Seas, my blue sources are very stable though. Would really want a 5th black one.

I'll probably playtest about 100-200 goldfish and note results, and look into playing some matches (probably 20 to 30 pre and post board) against 4c Landstill and see what I come up with. From there, I'll look into making changes to this list. Somewhere in here I still want to fit Wonder in the SB or main. If I can fit that 4th Unmask in the main, I can definitely put a 1 of Wonder in the SB in it's place.

[C.P.]

And I may be agreeing with you, C.P, on the Island instead of the Swamp. I'm very afraid though that if I rely solely on Fetch + U.Sea to cast the PImp and Therapy, I lack consistency and resilience in exchange for more reliability to cast answers, which may make both pre and post side games a little tougher. I'm assuming though that both on paper and in testing I'll find neither to be true, and both basics to come up very little. I am thinking that between 1 Island, 3 Coliseum (still wanting to get that 4th since draw is kinda tight), and 4 U.Seas, my blue sources are very stable though. Would really want a 5th black one.



If you want a black source, play Salvage instead. Swamp usually does not thing but rotting there more that you want it to be. Salvage, at least, has its uses including ensuring you the 2nd mana when you're on 1 land.

[Bongo]

I don't see any Dread Returns. Are they really cut from the deck? Is going one whole turn slower by cutting the Dread Return combo worth it to pack Unmask?

Yes, I cutted Dread Return from the deck. Wondered how long it took for someone to notice ;)
And yes, Unmask is worth it. The disruption it provides far outweighs the loss of Dread Return so far. I even toyed with Angel of Despair or Sundering Titans as DR targets to get rid of problem permanents.
You're winning anyway if you're in a situation where you can resolve DR, it is more important to get there, and Unmask helps greatly in that regard. Unmask & Therapy also improves the combo matchup a lot.


I really like the discussion in here, there seems to be a lot of innovation in Ichorid lately. I'm also interested in a pure UB, let me know how that works out. One minor advantage of the rainbow lands was that I could run Sundering Titan to wreck opposing mana-bases, but I see the merits of pure UB.

Let's keep up the innovation!

[Bane of the Living]

I will fully admit I hadn't thought of the possibility of running Mystical, but seeing as it digs for all the castable answers, I can see it being very helpful. It's especially effective with Ray and Grudge, since they can be flashbacked after Leyline is gone. I'll definitely have to look into testing that.

I'm also considering running into a solid UB build, and not using Ray or Grudge, just bounce. It may end up solidifying the manabase by making it less disrupted via quick Moon effects or early Wastelands, and if you are only working with bounce you don't need the 5c lands that either die off or kill you slowly. Another thing worth looking into I suppose, even though you lose the efficiency of destruction spells and are usually forced to go off immediately to keep them from recasting any of it. The Wonder tech sounds pretty cool too. Being able to beat face with flying Ichorids/zombies or Grave-Trolls is quite a bit to consider.



I would very much like to disagree about Goblins being a tougher matchup than the black splash Survival. Goblins have ONE card that neuters your Bridges, and the deck already sides Needles against them. If you stop Fanatic, you outrace Goblins and win like normal. However, outplaying Survival, Thoughtseize, Extirpate/Leyline, and Faerie Macabre is a MUCH harder run. Ask Anwar, in his matchup against Quicksilver at the DLD he had to mull to multiple pieces of answers, AND still race. I'd say just because of their maindeck and sideboard combination this is infinitely harder than Goblins or Goyf Sligh, regardless of their clock. Again though, this is my personal view, and I've only tested against R/G goblins, not the black splash variants. And I've already listed the hate I typically see from 4c Landstill, which is just a bitch in general. The deck post-board is practically TUNED against Ichorid. Also, Chalice is "meh" at best vs any version packing 3-4 Unmasks. Not only can you rip it from them opening hand, but Cabal Therapy serves as being only a zombie enabler now, it doesn't matter if it's countered anymore. Not to mention having discard outlets at 0cc, 1cc, and a land, they have some pretty tough choices on what to drop it at.

As for Wraith, I've been trying to get Link to put it in our Legacy build ever since I saw Ichorid popping up in Vintage. It really puzzled me why nobody ran him, especially counting this deck's speed is arguably just as fast as Vintage, and he's pretty resilient in the face of countermagic. I'd say it's taken a long time to get people to actually start looking at him in the correct light, but there's still work to be done as far as what he replaces.

I'm almost never seeing Needle come out against me, but even if they do name Imp, you can ditch in response to it's casting, and the damage is typically done by then. I'd be much happier seeing an opponent ONLY siding in Needle, since it's the easiest piece of hate to beat, same with StP. You can still dredge around it, and you still can draw into card 8 to discard, since you'd be going second (most likely). It's very easy playing around that card, even with Imp. To be honest, knowing my build I'd almost say it's safer calling Coliseum anyways, since it's so much more destructive to nullify the card draw capabilities than the discard ones. And you'd be surprised how much life you can take down having a flying 2/2 constantly pinging from turn 2 on. Between PImp and Narcomoebas, usually recurring a couple Ichorids is enough to swarm them in games 2 and 3, so I gotta give them credit when due on that.

And as for your "opening up to hate" logic, damn near every spell that isn't a dredge card or 4cc is "hate-able". I'm curious what you consider to be more resilient than having more than 1 out (LED + DA), seeing as you've now listed Coliseum, PImp, Tribes, Therapy, Breakthrough, and Bridge's as "liabilities". You've pretty much taken apart the whole deck, which leaves it with nothing more than the Dredge mechanic and some flashback spells. You do open up new avenues for the opponent to slow you, but in no way are you giving them complete access to wrecking you, as all the spells they would need to beat you are basically only found in Landstill, which I still say is the hardest of all matches to win.

Mystical sounds pretty solid actually. I like the idea of a one of Unmask and Brainstorm.

The problem with the U/B manabase is it you dont want to play Polluted Delta, Delta can be a mountain much like your gold lands if moon is dropped very quickly but it can also be Stifled. Being Stifled out of the game is not an option. You would need to run Watery Graves probably.

I would say Gobs is the harder matchup for several reasons..

Most players on the ball with Ichorid are running Chalice over Needle.. Whether or not Needle is a better replacement for Leyline or not may be a debate of its. So right there Mogg Fanatic is alot worse for you than you assume. He's actually better against you than Lackey since removing Narcomeoba can hit you 2 fold. Leyline is often better against goblins since you rely so heavily on Bridge from Below in the matchup. Aside from Fanatic most good goblin decks are now running Warrens Wierdings. Wierding themselves will remove your bridges and still leave them with two creatures to block Ichorids.

If goblins itself is running Leyline your pretty much fucked. There arent too many ways to deal with that. I've found the most solid goblin strategy against you is REB's + Leyline + Fanatic. Thats really what will fuck you because they can counter your Leyline bounce if you even brought it in.

These elements make the goblin matchup far better for them than survival has on you.

If survival doesnt go first their thoughtsieze is worthless. They have no counterspells so nothing can stop you from LED/Breakthrough crazyness. Anwar had trouble against it because he didn't have Breakthrough. He had the anti blue deck Breakthrough. This is where the two make a huge difference.

Speaking of Anwar, with all respect to him..

I've been saying people should run Street Wraith for months and now that Anwar goes to a tournament and writes an article people agree. Whatever. I suppose people may have listened to me if I wrote an article too. I figured I've wrote more than a primer in these pages. People pm me all the time about the deck. If you dont want to listen to me then I dont need to waste my time really.

I don't like Unmask in the deck. Not the maindeck anyways. Unmask isnt anything new. Vintage versions have been running it for a year now. The thing is Vintage Ichorid doesnt use mana, so they cant cast Therapy really. They also run more trash to pitch, even Ichorid is really nonsense in that format. They also dont see Daze in Vintage as much as Legacy, which you can often pay for with your 12ish lands.

Anything you can Unmask you can Therapy. If you miss with it one of two things happened. You named wrong with Therapy its your fault. Or it doesn't matter. If the only card that will stop you is gone.

[C.P.]

Mystical sounds pretty solid actually. I like the idea of a one of Unmask and Brainstorm.


It opens up a lot of design space. But it needs better manabase than Rainbow lands to support it properly. At least that's what I found this past 6 month.

[deviant]

I don't like Unmask in the deck. Not the maindeck anyways. Unmask isnt anything new. Vintage versions have been running it for a year now. The thing is Vintage Ichorid doesnt use mana, so they cant cast Therapy really. They also run more trash to pitch, even Ichorid is really nonsense in that format. They also dont see Daze in Vintage as much as Legacy, which you can often pay for with your 12ish lands.

The parts that I bolded are just plain wrong. I run 4 CoB's in my md, 3 Petrifield Fields in my md, and 4 Gemstone Mines in my sideboard. So I run the exact, or one less, amount of lands in my "manaless" 75 in Vintage than you run in Legacy.

How can I not hardcast Therapy in Vintage? Obv I don't do it on my 1st turn when I play Bazaar, but w/e. This, btw, is not anything new, and you should know that if you've been keeping track of Vintage Ichorid..

Also; Ichorid is certainly not trash in Vintage. Winning with Ichorid beats is common occurence to me at least. Many Vintage decks can just tutor for Echoing Truth to get rid of the tokens, but then they fold to Ichorids (or vice versa). Sure, you can ditch one to Unmask, mull one or two away with Powder, but you really want to see 1-3 before your third turn. They are an essential part of your game-plan.

Also: I remember faintly you advocating SW. I also remember that your logic behind that was not very convincing. I can't remember why, but I do remember that you were able to convince me that they were bad back then.. The version Anwar is playing them in, is fundamentally different than the version you were playing them back then. (Yes, I do believe that just adding Unmask in the place of combo-pieces fundamentally changes the deck.) So I don't think you deserve the credit for that "tech", sorry.

The only reason why I think we should play them atm is that they can be pitched to unmask and Ichorid, and the versions that do this are moving away from the more fragile combo-centric versions. They also make for a very bad "bazaar-impression" in that you can't counter them, but that is just gravy imo.
Simply put, they add consistency.

[Brehn]

I've been saying people should run Street Wraith for months and now that Anwar goes to a tournament and writes an article people agree. Whatever. I suppose people may have listened to me if I wrote an article too. I figured I've wrote more than a primer in these pages. People pm me all the time about the deck. If you dont want to listen to me then I dont need to waste my time really.

I've listened to you very well. You've suggested cutting Putrid Imps for Street Wraiths. Which is crap. And your logic was quite a bit flawed. One argument you made was "Street Wraith is good because if you play it, you know what to board out".

[C.P.]

Street Wraith is underwhelming without anything to back it up. Only reason that I run it is that I run Mystical tutor that works well with it.

Otherwise, cards that works as a discard outlet is generally better, like PImp and CS.

[whitshadw8]

It seems that people are reconsidering the B/U Ichorid with seas and fetches.

With only 4 Vapors to deal with Leyline, it's not certain if that provides enough answers. Mulligan to find Vapors reduces speed, which is fatal because it allows the opponent to find more answers/graveyard-hate. I don't feel that it's the best solution since LoTV will wreck some hell if we're unlucky. Mystical Tutor will delay us 1 turn. I'm not really sold on this B/U version coming back yet...

[deviant]

Well it ain't running fetches that's for sure.

Think of how embarassing it would be to Dredge your U-Seas, not be able to kill the opponent and then topdeck a fetch while holding a CoV to get rid of the re-casted leyline..

Besides, Underground Rivers and Watery Graves work just fine (if need be).

[Twoshirty]

As for Mystical Tutor idk but I am gonna try it at least, sounds like a good plan. I keep seeing you guys post all this stuff about street wraith, but I just dont see how he is good. Sure you cant counter him, but the most you get out of dude is 6 cards...max. Now I did like the fact that Ichorid came back alot more consistently, but I am not sure breakthrough is the card to cut.

Now I know my meta doesnt have any survial builds (which I belive one of you used to advocate the wraith) But I just cant back him up he has been awful in my testing and at the most nets me 6 cards in the bin .5 turns faster... If i can discard a dredger in the first place.

If you look back at my buiild i cut the chrome moxes for one xtra thug and one xtra dread return, and that has just been amazing for me. I understand you guys want to play the best version of the deck possible, but that depends on your meta. Every deck has bad match ups, this one especially, But to me it seems that if people want to have a decent shot they have to side so much hate that it is funny to me. The only true fear i have is mogg fanatic and hes a loser anywho. But I really do like that mystical tutor idea, i am gonna try it out.

[DeathwingZERO]

I've listed a number of reasons why I personally like Wraith over Breakthrough. If none of those apply to you, and you have ~ 10% at most chance of it getting countered, then by all means continue using it. My present mind is to make the deck as little hampered by counter effects as possible, and there's nothing I can do about the discard outlets, so I might as well make the draw outlets more resilient. Factor in that while he's not breakneck speed in dredging, he's getting Ichorid on the table much faster, so if you do get lucky with an early dredge off him, you're much less reliant on the combo thanks to the 3 damage a turn + potential zombie tokens and Moeba's flying in. The game is just as much pinging them to death now as it is hitting your combo, and I find that works out just as good.

As for Mystical, it's only a turn slower on the first turn. You don't HAVE to answer LotV immediately. In fact, I've found it's best to not attempt answering it until you can at least put half your library in your graveyard or rip their hand to pieces on the same turn. Plus, Mystical -> anything useful gives you much more action to work with than just hoping to topdeck answers AND threats once a turn. Maybe you've already hit CoV and now need to find that Dread Return? Perhaps a Therapy hardcast and hit with Flashback will guarantee the win? There's plenty to nab with Tutor than just the answers, and that's another thing I really like about it. Wraith being a free draw makes it even better for my version. I'm highly optimistic about results from it.

Whether that makes me stick to U/B over 5c is one thing, but I'm at least enjoying the idea of being able to free up slots in the SB for other things. I never really liked Ray or Grudge anyway, as they were most effective in the one place you can't get them with LotV out: the yard.

[Mayk0l]

Sorry to disrupt this discussion, but I had a question about Unmask. Reading Anwar's tournament report and realising that it had been a strong card almost everytime he played it, made me buy a playset to test them.
Currently I'm testing the deck adding three Unmask MD and one SB. My list now is nothing special but I brought back Careful Study from 2 to 0, and Breakthrough from 4 to 3. I didn't really want to cut Breakthrough but didn't know what else to cut.
I've stumbled on the following problems:

1) Unmask removes a card from the game, making LED not automatically hit Thresh for Coliseum on turn 2.
2) Unmask is sometimes not played when you have it because it would have to remove a solid card (Stinkweed Imp for example, when it's the only Dredger in your hand).
3) It can be underwhelming game 1 when you just want to win and the opponent is unprepared in which case a late Therapy is fast enough)
4) I don't know what to cut: CS seems like an obvious choice (CS is often used to dig for SB cards and also have Ichorid-y effects but Unmask functions as an answer itself), but Breakthrough sort of cuts the discard outlet (which is a very nice side-effect of the ownage-ness of Breakthrough) down even further. The other choice to me would seem cutting the third DA, but I love running three and cutting it makes LED weaker as well.

Could you explain how to effectively play Unmask
- What to pitch? When to pitch? (And please skip the obvious ones as: 'dont remove your only dredger doh-lmao-noob' replies).
- Differences in the strategy of playing Unmask G1 vs G2-3
- What to cut for Unmask? (I did see Deathwingzero's list on the previous page but that one cuts Breakthrough for SW alltogether, but I'd like to see a Breakthrough list)
- Is a list with Unmask without SW still effective?

[DeathwingZERO]

I'll save the quotes because I'm sure I'll be the first to reply. If you want a good list that builds on the Unmask in the main, read Anwar's article again. His list is nearly identical to mine, with the exception of Breakthrough and the Darkblast that I have the 4th Coliseum in place of. It's a very, very solid deck, and I'd say if you want to keep Breakthrough, start with that list and tune to what you feel comfortable with. As far as the draw engine goes, there's plenty of room for modifications, as long as you keep the numbers somewhat the same.

Personally, I'd keep Careful Study at least a 2 of, and cut DA #3 and probably 2 Breakthroughs + something random (a Coliseum to 3, if you have 4, making it very similar to Anwar's build). This is probably the most balanced approach to both draw and discard, as you've still got outlets without relying on any one particular thing.

As far as playing it, if I know the deck I'm up against (scouting between rounds is pretty awesome tech, if not slightly underhanded for disruption decks) I decide on what to do about it. If I can race, Unmask is not really a key card. If I need Unmask to hit something early, I will pitch a black dredger if I have Troll, or Therapy if I can go off without it. Aside from that, tossing Wraith is well within my ideal plays, if it doesn't cripple my hand's draw.

Unmask is still great without SW. It's better packing SW in place of blue cards, based on pure statistics, but that's to be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to go busted, Unmask may not even be necessary for your build. But if you do want the deck to pack some serious defense, try to fit in at least the 3 people tend to stick to. In almost all cases you will be cutting back on draw spells for it, as they are not an absolute (you can always dredge on the draw step, but discarding is much harder to attain on it's own).

As for differences in G1 vs G2, it depends on the deck I'm facing. If I anticipate (or know) they have SB options against me, I'll call against them. If one piece happens to be LotV, I will not go straight for Unmask hands, as they do nothing against LotV in the opening grip (obviously). Other than that, the choices you make shouldn't change. Pitch what you know to be the least likely to cost you the game, and name according to what you've seen G1. By G3 you should know for certain what to call for, and what is best to pitch. Depending on the hate, you may even find yourself capable of siding out the Unmasks, just because they may not be needed.

Hope this helps a little bit.

EDIT: Here's a list of things I know that I will call for with Unmask, just to be sure they are completely burned into my memory:

Chalice of the Void
Survival
Mogg Fanatic
Force of Will (if I know it's their primary disruption spell, and want to go off quick)
Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Tarmogoyf
Trinisphere
Ghostly Prison/Elephant Grass/Propaganda, etc
Ground Seal
Faerie Macabre

Generally safe bets for Game 1, in varied metagames. There's probably more than this, depending on how fast you predict your opening hand to get you with the -2 cards.

Game 2 depends on my opponent, but a decent list includes the previous, and:

Extirpate
Yixlid Jailer
Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon (I can't honestly say how many times I've been wrecked by this card on turn 1 or 2. So f'ing dumb)

Again, there's probably more. But it's pretty late, and I'm damn tired. Others will pick up on the list.

[AnwarA101]

There are many different cards that are being discussed in this thread and I feel that at least discussing any possibility is worthwhile. Not even considering the possibility of different builds can only stall development of this deck. Sure cutting LED might be wrong, but there is no harm in having a discussion about the pros and cons of such a choice. This can be said of any card in this deck. It can be said of any card in any deck . When we discuss the pros and cons of card choices that is when the possibility of improvement can really happen.

I've only really played the Unmask build (Parcher's list) lately and its worked well for me. I really like Unmask because it provides a proactive answer to a disruptive spell like Force of Will or a way to slow down other combo decks.

People have been discussing LED and Breakthrough and they do have their drawbacks certainly. LED can be a poor discard especially when you have nothing to use the mana on. I would actually consider cutting LED before I considered cutting Breakthrough. The reason is that Breakthrough can still let you dredge most of your library if you've already put a dredger in the yard. LED often doesn't do anything but discard your hand and let you dredge for your next draw. The reason LED is powerful is that it can let you discard your hand for 0 mana and this powerful when combined with Breakthrough. LED also works well with Deep Analysis and Cephalid Coliseum, but it also the weakest discard outlet post board. I've been boarding it out more and more in the post-board games, because I often need to find an answer and LED doesn't help in that regard. Breakthrough can at least be played for 1 and it can dig 4 deep to find a Pithing Needle or Chain of Vapor.

I like the idea of using Street Wraith, but I'm not sure how to fit him in the build that I'm using. I don't really want to cut any of the cards I'm currently playing for him.

[Hightower]

Hey Anwar, how many dredgers would you say is optimal? And what's your Ichorid count? (3 or 4?)

[AnwarA101]

Hey Anwar, how many dredgers would you say is optimal? And what's your Ichorid count? (3 or 4?)

I'm still playing the list in this article -

From Here to Eternity (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16139.html)

To answer your question, I'm playing 11 dredgers. I would like to play the 4th Thug, but its hard to find room. I play 4 Ichorids and I don't think I would play less than that as they are key to your aggro plan when you don't combo off.

[Bane of the Living]

EDIT: Here's a list of things I know that I will call for with Unmask, just to be sure they are completely burned into my memory:


Do you mean Cabal Therapy?? Unmask will always hit a card. (provided it didnt get Dazed) Which supposedly makes it worth running. I think to capitalize off Unmask you need to strip the removal/counter for your discard outlet and have the mana to use your outlet, and a dredger. So..

Unmask
black card you want to pitch
Land
Outlet
Dredge card

The chances of lining that hand up are pretty tricky. Maybe thats why Anwar needed to mulligan so much. Unmask only gets worse and worse as your hand gets smaller. It's not needed as much as it is in Vintage because the only decks that can threaten to end the game as fast as you are other combo decks. TES can now Brainstorm goodstuff away anyways. Id take the combo win any day.


Sure cutting LED might be wrong, but there is no harm in having a discussion about the pros and cons of such a choice. This can be said of any card in this deck. It can be said of any card in any deck . When we discuss the pros and cons of card choices that is when the possibility of improvement can really happen.


Anwar I agree with you for the most part. Any pretty much any card in the deck can be discussed as a pro or con. But not LED. Thats like suggesting we take Aether Vial out of goblins.

The ability to even discard your hand for free is powerfull enough to include the card. LED is powerfull enough to deserve a Force of Will. If you run it into a force it only sets you back one card so eventually you can get back to DDD.

I've met Parcher last month. He didn't say anything to me about Ichorid nor was he playing it. Honestly your list lost alot of credibility by not originating in your mind. Parcher doesn't even add discussion to the monstrous thread. You and I have had some words about the deck and I figured you had a good understanding of things.

[AnwarA101]

Anwar I agree with you for the most part. Any pretty much any card in the deck can be discussed as a pro or con. But not LED. Thats like suggesting we take Aether Vial out of goblins.

The ability to even discard your hand for free is powerfull enough to include the card. LED is powerfull enough to deserve a Force of Will. If you run it into a force it only sets you back one card so eventually you can get back to DDD.

I've met Parcher last month. He didn't say anything to me about Ichorid nor was he playing it. Honestly your list lost alot of credibility by not originating in your mind. Parcher doesn't even add discussion to the monstrous thread. You and I have had some words about the deck and I figured you had a good understanding of things.

Ofcourse LED is powerful and that is why most builds of Ichorid are playing it, but there is no harm at least considering playing something else even if it is LED. I've boarded out the card against certain decks, because its all or nothing. If you are trying to play protection spells or find answers it doesn't do anything. Sure we might find out that LED is irreplaceable and then we'll definitely include it.

I'm not sure why a list would lose credibility just because I didn't come up with it. Whether someone adds to a discussion or not doesn't change whether a their decklist is good or bad.

[Deep6er]

Since when did it matter who started the thread or who created the deck? That doesn't mean anything. Other people still have to pick it up and play it. Just because somebody created something doesn't give them the right to force discussion in a particular manner. You seem to put a great deal of weight behind the idea of somebody "creating" something. What does it matter if Parcher never posts in this thread? He's been helping Anwar and Krieger with it for awhile now. How does Anwar's list lose credibility? What the hell do you mean credibility? I'm pretty sure I was there when he top 8'd with it. Does Parcher know who you are? Most people don't go and strike up conversations with people they've never met before. Seriously though, what the fuck, dude? I'm genuinely curious how something not "originating in Anwar's mind" loses credibility.

Anyway, a question to Ichorid players:

When your opponent is playing black, be it black Threshold, Black Loam, a black based control deck, whatever, do you usually gun for Jailer or Leyline of the Void? Which, in your experience, is the more popular of the two pieces of hate that's usually brought in against Ichorid by black decks?

I know that non-black decks usually run Crypt (if they run grave-hate at all), but I'm curious as to which ones you'll usually put your opponents on for game 2's.

[Dark_Cynic87]

It really depends on the meta. If we're talking a big tourney where the meta is more developed but not well-known (GenCon, Nats, GP's, etc.) than your normal place of playing, I put most on Leylines if its a decent build and Jailers if it seems like a cheaper version. I put them on Leylines as it's better against more things than Jailer is in my experiences.

If you are talking like your normal 20/30 player tourney where the meta is set, it will simply depend on the meta, but I'm guessing most of those people also use Leylines.

However, If the meta is insane amounts of Ichorid and your opponents know it, it would be wise for them to run Jailers due to the healthy lack of creature removal other than bounce...

Pce,

--DC

[Bane of the Living]

Since when did it matter who started the thread or who created the deck? That doesn't mean anything. Other people still have to pick it up and play it. Just because somebody created something doesn't give them the right to force discussion in a particular manner. You seem to put a great deal of weight behind the idea of somebody "creating" something. What does it matter if Parcher never posts in this thread? He's been helping Anwar and Krieger with it for awhile now. How does Anwar's list lose credibility? What the hell do you mean credibility? I'm pretty sure I was there when he top 8'd with it. Does Parcher know who you are? Most people don't go and strike up conversations with people they've never met before. Seriously though, what the fuck, dude? I'm genuinely curious how something not "originating in Anwar's mind" loses credibility.

A couple things..

Your right it doesnt matter who started the thread or developed the deck.
I don't feel like Im pushing the discussion in one way or another because there are a lot of single card discussions on the deck atm. What I am opposed to is slowing the deck down and maxing the amount of 1cc cards to 12+. Letting the deck crumble to Chalice is a very bad thing. Not being able to play your own Chalice for 1 is just ridiculous.

Playing Tireless Tribe is ironically a tireless arguement. Although we've already considered and shot down other non blue/black cards because of mana constraints another great debate needs to shoot into the sky for some god forsaken reason.

As far as Parcher is concerned, I have all the respect in the world for him. (I had him sign my Magus!) I'll take anything he says about Dragon Stompy and give it more credibility than I would lets say... YOU. If I were to ask Anwar about Red Death or you about Solidarity I'd also take the feedback more seriously. I don't need the rights to Ichorid or anything but I would hope that people would give my innovations on Ichorid or Stax more appreciation than randomly thrown ideas from people like Breath Weapon, (who Ive called out before and asked "where do you play magic"?)

Thinking about decks all day on the source and posting silly ideas is completely different from real life stone cold tournament experience with the deck.

It would seem that others, as well as I, put a lot of trust in Anwar's build and opinion. He writes very knowledgable articles and like I said I know for a fact he's been working with the deck for a while. When I found out that he's been using someones decklist that has never played a sanctioned Unmask (for all I know) it makes me a bit un-nerved about the choices made.



Anyway, a question to Ichorid players:

When your opponent is playing black, be it black Threshold, Black Loam, a black based control deck, whatever, do you usually gun for Jailer or Leyline of the Void? Which, in your experience, is the more popular of the two pieces of hate that's usually brought in against Ichorid by black decks?

I know that non-black decks usually run Crypt (if they run grave-hate at all), but I'm curious as to which ones you'll usually put your opponents on for game 2's.

Leyline. You cant Darkblast or Contagion it. So if your not prepared for it you lose. Jailer can be Chain of Vapored. You can also Therapy Jailer out of someones hand before they drop him often enough. Daze sets thresh back enough to lose him to therapy usually.

The real question is actually "Am I going to face Leyline or Extirpate?" You cant CoV Extirpate but you have Chalice to stop it once you know its there.

In summary, always prepare for Leyline since it's worse case.

[DeathwingZERO]

Since CoV is your main option against either Jailer or Leyline, I gun for Leyline. If that doesn't drop on my opponent's side, I'm actually a bit relieved. If they cast Jailer, I can still go through many different options, be it:

1- Cripple their hand with Unmask/Therapy, then bounce and go off when I know it's a one turn play
2- Play through non-grave based draw and discard, and just not dredge until Jailer is bounced, amassing the combo and Ichorid army, hardcasting PImps and Moebas in the meantime if I see them
3- Bounce Jailer asap, and swarm if the hand is good

Jailer by himself is really no problem, it's him + heavy disruption/fast clock that I worry about. Especially if their deck can't do anything about CoV. LotV is infinitely harder to deal with, since you still have to dig for CoV, but at the same time you have to be very careful what you let get removed from game. Being that it's a turn 0 drop and free, it doesn't slow the opponent at all. That's the most annoying part.

With that said, I personally see way more Leylines than Jailers. At times, I'll see them both. A lot of the guys around here I play with can afford to recast it, be it Aggro Loam, Survival or 4c Landstill. So if I bounce and I can't put pressure on fast enough, I essentially scoop.

EDIT: As far as Bane's posting, I found that Unmask was going to show up in Legacy at some point or another anyway. Even if Parcher never played the deck (or even playtested it), the fact that Anwar put enough time into it to show that it's worthy of keeping was plenty for me to believe the card was good. Making room for it was the toughest part, but once we got that part out of the way it was pretty much a given to keep it, especially with the SW mod. Sometimes good deckbuilders get good ideas, and bring them to the guys they know can play it better. With Anwar's understanding of the deck, and Parcher possibly never have actually piloted it, I'd say it'd support this case. I wouldn't lose any respect in the list from a scenario like that, as Parcher obviously had good reason to believe it worked.

Tireless Tribe I'm still not sold on myself. It's a one of that's technically off-color, and really only sets us up on a defensive strategy as far as it's P/T are concerned. PImp flies overhead for 2 a turn, and is on color (and in case nobody understands what I'm referring to on-color, go back and read what Ichorid does again :p) and I like that with Moeba and PImp, sometimes you don't even have to do anything with the deck but swing-n-ping.

I'm also not sold on Chalice, at least in my meta. Only one player I know of plays Extirpate, and that still shifts back and forth in his SB. Other than that, it's not much of an issue, so I never bothered keeping CotV in the SB for very long. I'm also not very scared of Chalice @ 1 with my build, as it really only makes me lose PImp. Therapy flashbacks can get countered, I just want the mindless army anyway.

[AnwarA101]

Anyway, a question to Ichorid players:

When your opponent is playing black, be it black Threshold, Black Loam, a black based control deck, whatever, do you usually gun for Jailer or Leyline of the Void? Which, in your experience, is the more popular of the two pieces of hate that's usually brought in against Ichorid by black decks?

I know that non-black decks usually run Crypt (if they run grave-hate at all), but I'm curious as to which ones you'll usually put your opponents on for game 2's.

When I play against a deck playing black I generally board 4 Chain of Vapor as that answers both Jailer and Leyline. If I'm unsure if they play Leyline of the Void I usually board the 2 Ray of Revelations as well. In general I don't take chances in game 2 and instead board for the worst.

The only exception to this is Goblins. I've noticed that most Goblins builds don't run Jailer nor Leyline even if they are playing black.



As far as Parcher is concerned, I have all the respect in the world for him. (I had him sign my Magus!) I'll take anything he says about Dragon Stompy and give it more credibility than I would lets say... YOU. If I were to ask Anwar about Red Death or you about Solidarity I'd also take the feedback more seriously. I don't need the rights to Ichorid or anything but I would hope that people would give my innovations on Ichorid or Stax more appreciation than randomly thrown ideas from people like Breath Weapon, (who Ive called out before and asked "where do you play magic"?)

Thinking about decks all day on the source and posting silly ideas is completely different from real life stone cold tournament experience with the deck.

It would seem that others, as well as I, put a lot of trust in Anwar's build and opinion. He writes very knowledgable articles and like I said I know for a fact he's been working with the deck for a while. When I found out that he's been using someones decklist that has never played a sanctioned Unmask (for all I know) it makes me a bit un-nerved about the choices made.


I did not mean to ever imply that the build was my own. In fact in the article I wrote I had the list credited to Damon Whitby (Parcher). You can find it in this article, From Here to Eternity (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16139.html).

I'm sure I misunderstood your original statement. But I think you would be suprised to know that Parcher did Top8 with Ichorid at the Winter Wonderland. His list did not include Unmask. I've included it below for reference:

Parcher
Ichorid

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Deep Analysis
1 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
3 Cabal Pit
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation

[kyan]

I've been playing this deck for a while now but I still consider myself a noob with it. It's great that there is an ongoing discussion regarding the deck, keep it up.

I do have a few questions, I hope someone can help me out.


1. What do you usually call out for Pithing Needle in Legacy? I know there are a lot, but what are the really important ones that you need to call out to protect this deck? Just so that we have a list here so that I won't forget which card/s to call out (similar to the list a few posts above for cabal therapy I think)


2. I saw a post a page back with a list that has no dread returns? Is anyone testing this? I've tested it for only about 12 games so far. I don't know if I'm just lucky with winning a couple of games with it but it is a whole turn slower. Although, it really messes up the opponents hand quick. I usually empty their hand in one turn, then attack the turn after that. But I've tested it casually so I'm not sure if it is really effective. Anyone else testing it?



Thank you for all the input about this deck, it helps a lot. Keep the thread alive! The deck is far from perfect but I love it because it's so cheap to build yet it can also dominate opponents who do not have the right answers to it.

[C.P.]

Credibility my ass. I admit some people are more knowledgeable than others on certain decks, but that's not how you judge if an idea is viable or not. If you think it sucks, prove it by testing it.

What I really like to see, if any one of you think that you deserve more respect that the others regarding the deck, is see you updating that goddamn opening post.

The list in the opening post still has things like Serum Powder, and looks far away from widely accepted build. and list all the Choices that are in debate. This includes Manabase, What is excepted Core for the deck, and cards like Street Wraith, 1 Mana creature discard outlet, Mystical Tutor and others.

I'd be more than happy to admit that an individual is the guy to listen to if he can write an excellent opening post about the deck.



@Anwar

I once took the direction of Dropping LED and made it more blue heavy. It eventually supported FoW and even Daze if you make it to do so. But you know what is better than that deck? Cephalid Breakfast, Which is sucking balls right now.

I don't like all-or-nothingness of LED either, but I;m not sure if we have any other alternative. Unless you go Tolarian Wind route with 8 Discard Backup.

[Parcher]

I guess it's time for me to chip in to adress a few things.

First, I do not normally post in this thread for the same reason I rarely post in the Dragon Stompy thread. I don't have the patience for people to pose rhetorical questions and fumble around with lists that have proven viable if not perfected, for either their own entertainment, or advancement of their egos. If you look through the DS thread, you will notice that excepting the rotating amount of 3Spheres and Blood Moons maindecked, the only thing that has changed since my first list a year ago is the inclusion of Taurean Mauler. A card that didn't exist at the time.

Anwar will be the first to admit that he is not the best Ichorid player, though he is rapidly becoming one. Regardless, he Top 8'ed two large (for Legacy) tournaments back-to-back with a list I gave him. In fact, his only loss in the swiss of either was to a single play mistake that even Bryant Cook, his opponent, admitted would have assured him the win. And at least at Syracuse, his Top 8 loss was to 100% bad luck+an insanely lucky topdeck by his opponent. Whether you feel you have a better build or not, the results should speak for themselves.

As for myself, I could care less what people think of my experience with the deck. Which is again why I didn't post in this thread until Anwar got involved. I do know I have more Top 8's at major tournaments with it that those questioning my decklist or experience.

On that subject, the title of this thread is "Ichorid Combo". Anwar's list is in my opinion the best version of this. That is to say, it has the fastest kill rate while retaining it's ability to foil opponent's hampering this. Careful Study adds consistancy. Street Wraith adds resiliency. None of these are innappropriate additions to the deck. They simply lessen chances at winning by turn three, which this version does with astounding efficiency. There is always room for improvement, but I have yet to see an idea presented that would do so without either slowing the Game One win, or reducing the ability to disrupt your opponent's attempts to stop it.

Ichorid is bizzare in that not only does it play backwards from most decks, it has two competely seperate plans of attack. The first, which I have been trying to take advantage of, is the "combo". The ability to rush 6+ Zombie tokens on the board with a FKZ trigger to Haste the damage through. The second is to play beatdown with Ichorids, Narcomoebas, and possibly a Troll. Removing LED, Breakthrough, etc. does open the ability to shore up the later turns of the game due to more consistant and reliable attacks. Unfortunately, 3 mana for zero, and 20+ card draws for one highly outweigh any other additions. Speed counts, especially in this format.

I will admit LED is often underwhelming. That is, until you face a Propaganda effect. Both Kreiger and I have beaten Game One Ghostly Prisons, and I have beaten Game One Elephant Grass in tournaments by animating a GGT, and swinging for lethal by paying with LED. Would lands do the same thing? No. By the time you can actually draw a land with this deck, Stax will have either Wasted or 'Geddoned the other, and Enchantress will have locked you out or won. This is of course, not mentioning it's synergy with DA and Breakthrough, nor it's simple ability to empty your hand for free at instant speed.

Breakthrough is non-negotiable, regardless of it's vulnerability. Since adding Unmask, do you realize how many turn one-two wins I have had without LED or Coliseum? Against Combo, Unmask them, Therapy them, win. Against decks with no relevant disruption turn one, Unmask myself, cast Breakthrough, win. Against Goblins, I even did this exact same play turn one on a five-card hand, lost three of my Bridges turn two to a Fanatic, and still won turn four with Ichorid beats. The cards is broken beyond anything even clost in this deck, and removing it for any reason is a mistake.

I have actively tried to improve on my current build, and have yet to successfully. Pehaps someone else will, but I doubt removing the deck's two most broken cards will do this. The sideboard, however, has a deal of room for improvement. While I am currently working on this, I have nothing concrete enough to write as a certainty. Once I have, I am sure you will see it in a Top 8 list here on The Source.

[Bongo]

2. I saw a post a page back with a list that has no dread returns? Is anyone testing this? I don't know if I'm just lucky with winning a couple of games with it but it is a whole turn slower. Although, it really messes up the opponents hand quick. I usually empty their hand in one turn, then attack the turn after that. Anyone else testing it?


Yeah, I was the one who posted that list, and I'm still testing it. Granted, you're a turn slower without the Dread Return kill, but you gain that turn through the additional disruption. However, I'm trying to fit the DR plan back in, because it provides another way to win, which makes the deck more versatile and quicker. My current version is:

4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study

4x Ichorid
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Unmask

4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba
2x Street Wraith

2x Dread Return
1x Flame-kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage -> not entirely sure about this slot, also trying out Sundering Titan

4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass

This version without LED has proven to be quick, disruptive and consistent. Careful Study is crucial.
Breakthrough has proven to be invaluable, especially with Unmask to help it resolve or put a dredger in the grave to start dredging immediately.

Sideboard:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
2 Mystical Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Darkblast
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Unmask

I'm running the Mystical Tutor package with the rainbow lands to get access to Grudge and Ray. Darkblast is there as a tutorable answer for Jailer, the fourth Unmask is for the combo matchup, and Dakmor Salvage is against decks with Wasteland. Cabal Pit in Anwar's board is interesting, when do you board in Pit and what do you take out for it?

[kicks_422]

I'm also interested in cutting the Dread Return combo. From the list you have above, I have the 4th Thug, the 4th Unmask, 4 Wraiths over the combo. Also no LED's. Still untested though, so I'll get to work on that.

[Parcher]

Cabal Pit was in "Anwar's" build for a single tournament. It was there, as was Undiscovered Paradise for two reasons. First, I wanted as many possible Black sources available. There were at least nine Lanstill builds at that tournament. With most of them packing Crypt, I wanted to guarantee to have access to Putrid Imp turn one. He was also especially relevant since many had Moat. The other reason was that Jailer had just been released, and both Thresh and Landstill decks were trying him at the time. I wanted an uncounterable way to kill him, and Darkblast tested awful since they could counter it once, and it was dead. I wouldn't run Pit now.

[Holiday]

Which match ups do you usually board in Leyline of the Void?

[Zach Tartell]

Which match ups do you usually board in Leyline of the Void?

The mirror and Goblins. Goyf Sligh if you see Mogg Fanatic (and don't expect crypts) (actually, board out like 8 things and put in 4 Needle 4 Leyline).

[Holiday]

Thanks Zach,

So you wouldn't bother for decks like survival or loam?

[Zach Tartell]

Thanks Zach,

So you wouldn't bother for decks like survival or loam?

Against Survival you're more worried about what they can tutor up. Like, if they're running the ridiculously old RGSA (like something with Mogg Fanatics) then maybe. You're more worried about RGBSA (or whatever vanilla build of Survival with black) and their Yixlid Jailers. (that is to say board in Chain of Vapors over leylines)

And loam.... we should try and goldfish Loam. Their best defense is Leyline, and that's pretty easy (since they don't have counter magic or much (any?) discard) to deal with. Like, slowing them down a crap ton is cool. But I'd rather just win.

[AnwarA101]

Which match ups do you usually board in Leyline of the Void?

I also board it against Storm combo to cut off the Ill-Gotten Gains loop.

[Shimster]

@ Parcher / AnwarA101: Why do you cut Careful Study instead of Deep Analysis? Although more Analyses strengthen the percentage of 1st turn kills (or the combo kill in general), more Studies help finding solutions postboard.

I am going to run a 11 land, 2 Sage, 4 Imp, 4 Ichorid, 3 Therapy, 3 Study, 2 Analysis list in Iserlohn on Sunday. If I am well rested, I'll write a report.

[Parcher]

@ Parcher / AnwarA101: Why do you cut Careful Study instead of Deep Analysis? Although more Analyses strengthen the percentage of 1st turn kills (or the combo kill in general), more Studies help finding solutions postboard.

You're absolutely correct...but it's a very slippery slope when thinking that way. The extra two cards you see off Study can be the whole game post-board. If you are chosing to remove LED form the main, I highly recommend running it. But removing DA reduces the effectiveness of LED; mainly only to paying for costs, Coliseum, or a poor discard outlet. Even my cutting to two can sometimes hamper the combo. The main reason being, this deck doesn't aim to win turn one (though I'll take it if lucky). You usually set up the turn two-three win on turn one. By this time, you will usually be able to pull/Dredge a DA, which will assure the win. In matches where you side out LED, DA goes as well. This will not give greater accessability to the answers that Careful Study does, but you will have more room for them (i.e. Chain of Vapor, and a specific other card). This is partially the reson I have been revamping the sideboard. To utilize more aggressive cards that are less dependant on specific hate opponents have brought in.

[Tenant_Tron]

Heya guys, Im a long time Ichorid player and decided to finally jump in the discussion here! I have very little respect for the people in here who suggest cutting LED or Breakthrough, so i dont want to hear about that... since I actually have experience with the deck and know that those are both very bad to even think about cutting, so my question really goes to Anwar and Parcher who seem to be putting up results lately and also seem level headed on the best 8 engine cards in the deck, and came up with the latest tech which I really like being Unmask.

I agree with the inclusion of Unmask, and think I will try running 3 MD and 1 SB, but my question is what is the best cut for the 3rd Unmask? I agree that cutting the 1 undecided slot I had and the 3rd Deep Analysis are probably best, but for the 3rd one Anwar seems to have cut the 4th Cephalid Coliseum for the 3rd Unmask, as seen in his article "From Here to Eternity". Im just wondering if that 4th Coliseum is really the proper cut, since you often want Coliseum especially since you are keeping a level head and running 4 Breakthrough and 4 LED. The way I see it our options are:

4th Coliseum - Just unsure...
4th Gemstone Mine - Would make casting non-blue spells harder obviously
4th Putrid Imp - Great engine, black so pitches to Unmask/Ichorid
4th Ichorid - Good to have all 4 in long games or vs STP
3rd Dread Return - 3 may not be needed, but it is black and helps pitch to Unmask or combo a turn earlier

Again, Im just not sure Id cut Coliseum, I think right now I am leaning toward cutting the 3rd Dread Return or the 4th Coliseum and keeping the Imp/Ichorid core intact...any rationalization of this decision appreciated!

T.T

[AnwarA101]

Heya guys, Im a long time Ichorid player and decided to finally jump in the discussion here! I have very little respect for the people in here who suggest cutting LED or Breakthrough, so i dont want to hear about that... since I actually have experience with the deck and know that those are both very bad to even think about cutting, so my question really goes to Anwar and Parcher who seem to be putting up results lately and also seem level headed on the best 8 engine cards in the deck, and came up with the latest tech which I really like being Unmask.

I agree with the inclusion of Unmask, and think I will try running 3 MD and 1 SB, but my question is what is the best cut for the 3rd Unmask? I agree that cutting the 1 undecided slot I had and the 3rd Deep Analysis are probably best, but for the 3rd one Anwar seems to have cut the 4th Cephalid Coliseum for the 3rd Unmask, as seen in his article "From Here to Eternity". Im just wondering if that 4th Coliseum is really the proper cut, since you often want Coliseum especially since you are keeping a level head and running 4 Breakthrough and 4 LED. The way I see it our options are:

4th Coliseum - Just unsure...
4th Gemstone Mine - Would make casting non-blue spells harder obviously
4th Putrid Imp - Great engine, black so pitches to Unmask/Ichorid
4th Ichorid - Good to have all 4 in long games or vs STP
3rd Dread Return - 3 may not be needed, but it is black and helps pitch to Unmask or combo a turn earlier

Again, Im just not sure Id cut Coliseum, I think right now I am leaning toward cutting the 3rd Dread Return or the 4th Coliseum and keeping the Imp/Ichorid core intact...any rationalization of this decision appreciated!

T.T

Putrid Imp gives you a good plan against Tormod's Crypt and he's also very strong part of your aggro plan. Dread Return is a possibility, but I think you still want to be able to combo your opponent out on a regular basis especially if you are running 4 Breakthrough and 4 LED. Ichorid is essential for having the beatdown plan when you don't the combo win. Gemstone Mine is possible, but I really like being able to cast Putrid Imp and playing one less Mine makes that slightly less likely. That's why I think cutting the Cephalid Coliseum is correct since its the least painful of the possible cuts you could make.

[DeathwingZERO]

In the last 24 hours I've been testing a rather interesting list. Suffice it to say I put a lot of the ideas that people have been talking about (myself included) and ran some comparisons to the way the deck ran previously.

In testing (pre-board goldfishing), I ran roughly 30-40 games for each of the 2 versions. The older list (one Linkxwing and I had going, with MD Wraiths instead of Breakthrough), we were averaging a very solid kill on turn 3 (anything 24 damage and over, counting a single blocker would be there by then). Out of a number of games, this included anything going past turn 5 that didn't combo as an auto-loss (giving opponents far too much time to recover).

The new list, which runs very, very differently, is 3.1 turns. I will spill the fact the list is more akin to Extended, but not quite. Though a very interesting side effect of the .1 turn speed loss, it was far more consistent with combo kills, AND was doing it with both Unmask and Cabal Therapy being such heavy hitters typically the opponent didn't have a hand. I also noticed the combo would tend to hit far more zombies, which was awesome when considering random decks packing fatties that I just had to swarm 20 damage past. I also was able to do a wrecking ball 42 damage in one swing on 4th turn, and with only 3 Dread Return, that was pretty damn good. I haven't put up numbers like that since we still had the 4th in the main.

If I actually do a good enough job of taking notes, I'll try to write a report for the tournament tomorrow. If not, I'll just have notes of each match, and the decklist. Expect to be weirded out, at the very least. I guarantee this list will look odd to some of you.

[kicks_422]

Hey, whatever wins, weird or not. I'm looking forward to that. I like the sound of that 2nd list though, since Unmask and Therapy have proven to be such a wrecking ball for me as well in MWS.

My most recent list is without LED and Deep Analysis though, maxing out on Careful Study instead so that grave hate wouldn't hurt as much. That said, I still don't know if that makes the deck or better or worse - all I know is that it makes Games 2 and 3 a bit more stable, especially in finding SB cards.

[Jaiminho]

I also was able to do a wrecking ball 42 damage in one swing on 4th turn, and with only 3 Dread Return, that was pretty damn good. I haven't put up numbers like that since we still had the 4th in the main.

Does that count for anything? I mean, as long as you can get 20 damage, it doesn't matter how much extra you get. It's like being able to get infinite storm, when you only need 10. It's no bonus.

[DeathwingZERO]

Does that count for anything? I mean, as long as you can get 20 damage, it doesn't matter how much extra you get. It's like being able to get infinite storm, when you only need 10. It's no bonus.

Actually it means a lot. For starters, it means that there will be opportunities to push through creatures that are bigger than 3/3, which was one of the best things about the 4 DR's in the main, at times you could chain the combo to get a few up to 5/5s and 6/6s. My meta includes much the elves and Goblin variants, so if I can push even 3-4 zombies through of 10, they need to swing for as much as possible.

[Race War]

Does that count for anything? I mean, as long as you can get 20 damage, it doesn't matter how much extra you get. It's like being able to get infinite storm, when you only need 10. It's no bonus.

It counts for something. 20 damage is fine, if the board is totally clear. You must consider blockers and any other effects in play.

[Jaiminho]

Seemed as if he was mentioning 42 damage past a lone blocker, which goes for something like 46 total damage. By turn 3, you shouldn't expect more than 3 blockers, so he would get something like 34 damage through, which is way more than 20.

[DeathwingZERO]

Seemed as if he was mentioning 42 damage past a lone blocker, which goes for something like 46 total damage. By turn 3, you shouldn't expect more than 3 blockers, so he would get something like 34 damage through, which is way more than 20.

The "lethal" damage was roughly 30, I assumed there was always an additional blocker from turn 1 on, and I wasn't swinging with Ichorids or Moeba's, assuming a more controllish roll with Therapy -> Bridge activations, mostly because I never saw my FKZ until that turn.

So I finished 4th in the tournament earlier, of about 22 people. All 4 Ichorid decks piloted hit the top 8, and I lost to a RGB sligh variant packing 13 pieces of hate against me.

*A note to those who play game 2, and want something to call? EXTIRFUCKINGPATE. I kept a hand of 2 Therapy, 2 land, Imp, Study, Chain......and called Crypt because I'm an idiot. I then proceed to see 2x Extirpate + Wasteland + nonsense, lose my Therapy in hand and 2 left in the deck, followed by the other ripping my Stinkweeds because I had to bait him. Then he topdecked Crypt. Savage beats.

Anyway, onto the deck:

Type 1.5x Ichorid

Lands: 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredge: 11
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug

Control: 7
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Unmask

Randomness: 15
3 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

Draw: 10
4 Street Wraith
4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough

Combo: 5
3 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Sideboard:(this is where things get really weird)
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Unmask
1 Sundering Titan
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Darkblast

So ya, this is the list that in Game 1 goldfished a 3.1 turn average, compared to the 3.0 from my previous version. While it was going to be a very uphill battle if anybody maindecked Chalice, I knew I wasn't going to see it. Even then, I have multiple outs still to both dredge and draw, and Ichorid + Imp + Moeba beats were putting my opponents down to 0 by turn 4 on their own.

I'll have a tournament report up tomorrow, suffice it to say I had some really good matches, and some really terrible ones. I went 3-1-1, beat a mirror in top 8 and lost to RGB Sligh in top 4. The only cards I don't remember siding in were Darkblast, but they may have come in at some point. Titan only came in during the final match, but I was never able to dredge into him.

[kicks_422]

MD's pretty close to mine. Here's where I am:

Lands: 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredge: 12
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug

Control: 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

Randomness: 16
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

Draw: 8
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Combo: 4
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

With a more traditional SB of:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus

I'd like to fit in Street Wraiths though, so I just might end up with something much more similar to yours. I sometimes miss the explosiveness of LED + Deep Analysis (like sometimes I wish the Careful Study in my hand was a Deep Analysis), but the less reliance on the graveyard going into G2 seems very good.

Question though: With your SB, a Crypt and/or a Fanatic would seriously slow you down, as you have no way of stopping those on the draw. Is it worth it?

[Kanti]

Ichorid w/ Unmask M;D

Creatures [28]
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith

Sorceries [17]
2 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
1 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Unmask

Enchantments [4]
4 Bridge from Below

Lands [11]
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

Sideboard [15]
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Contagion
1 Echoing Truth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ray of Revelation

What I would like to know is how to correctly sb with this deck.
What do I take out and put in matches

[Tenant_Tron]

MD's pretty close to mine. Here's where I am:

Lands: 12
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum

Dredge: 12
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug

Control: 8
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

Randomness: 16
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

Draw: 8
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

Combo: 4
2 Dread Return
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

With a more traditional SB of:

4 Chain of Vapor
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus

I'd like to fit in Street Wraiths though, so I just might end up with something much more similar to yours. I sometimes miss the explosiveness of LED + Deep Analysis (like sometimes I wish the Careful Study in my hand was a Deep Analysis), but the less reliance on the graveyard going into G2 seems very good.

Question though: With your SB, a Crypt and/or a Fanatic would seriously slow you down, as you have no way of stopping those on the draw. Is it worth it?

This list without LED, which Im still Im not sure I agree with, doesnt seem all that bad actually. The only thing I would change is I would add a 3rd DR and cut the 4th Thug, especially with 4 Studys to find a dredger 11 is certainly enough. I wonder if it might be good to run some number of Tireless Tribe here like the good Extended lists did, they didnt not have LED/DA in that format and Tribe worked very well, tho it would probably require adding 1-2 rainbow lands and cutting Unmasks. I guess it comes down to Unmask vs. Tribe...thoughts? Btw I think Street Wraith is bad, I have tried it in Legacy and Extended and it is much worse than having an actually engine card like Imp/Tribe or blue draw spell like Breakthrough/Study/Coliseum.

T.T

[DeathwingZERO]

@T.T: I have to seriously disagree about SW now. He is ridiculous. Every time I had him in my hand, I loved it. I pay 2 life for guaranteed dredge. Then I use the same dredge engine enabler to bring back an Ichorid. The deck literally was beating opponents solely on Ichorid + zombies and PImp beats about 3/4 the time. I only had to really combo out twice. Even against an LED list in the top 8, I beat him down to 8 JUST because of early PImp dredging hitting Ichorid and Moebas, then finally saw the FKZ and closed the deal. SW enables me to dredge far more often, and far more consistently, and in multiples, he's just downright sick. He also makes playing on the draw much more retarded.

Every game 2 I saw that I had a Troll, I passed turn and discarded. I had one game where 2 of these guys were in my hand, I discarded my Troll, waited until the end of their turn, dredged it, then saw another, dredged that, and went off on my turn 2. 4 life and I'm 12 cards deeper in my library (17 by my draw step) and I hadn't even cast a spell yet, on top of having 2 guaranteed Ichorid removers. I'm very doubtful I'm cutting him back now. To put it bluntly, I NEVER had him in my hand for more than a turn, and he never drew me a card.

@Kicks: The Crypts were a bit of a nuisance, but of all my matches, the ones I already planned on losing to boarded them in. StifleNought destroyed me games 2 and 3, because he ripped Stifle's and Crypt's early on me, and Wasteland + FoW/Daze kept me off my plays. I already knew StifleNought is a bad matchup, as you have to race them knowing about half your deck is now able to be shut down. The other match that had them that I saw was the RGB deck. But that Crypt off his topdeck was pretty much just a nail in the coffin. He already ripped my Therapies and Stinkweeds from game, and Bolted my PImp followed by Wasting my Mine. I literally had nothing on him that game.

My answers to Fanatic used to be Needle or Leyline. The R/B Goblins list changed all that. Needle is pretty much useless now, as the build my buddy piloted had somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-12 ways of getting a goblin in the yard on his turn, without swinging. Leyline I actually took out of the SB so he could use them, as I wasn't expecting any other Goblin or Ichorid lists to show up, so I figured they were just "meh". In fact, in the top 8 round, my opponent sided in Chain of Vapor against me, expecting Leylines. Effectively, I had him side in 4 dead cards. I liked that.

I'll give you all some insight on exactly what the SB was intended for, and I will admit this sideboard is NOT my usual, nor will it be.

2 Island/1 Sea: These are in for 2 main reasons: consistent blue mana sources, 2 of which are waste proof, as well as boarding in replacements for Coliseum when I either a) REALLY value my life total or b) see Needles in the opponents main/side (the Goyfinity player had them maindecked). All in all, they were pretty useful. The Islands were permanent mana sources, as they couldn't be hit with B2B, Moon, Waste, etc. Probably not sure if I am going to keep them, but if more Ichorid decks show up, I will, just to fit that one Wonder in the Titan slot.

Titan: I wanted him for when I was capable of getting a very explosive dredge after being able to bypass a tough matches hate. My logic was if I could DR him, not only would I nuke probably 3-4 lands depending on the build, but I lose nothing, and have a 7/10 beater they have to deal with. Unfortunately he never came out, and I REALLY wanted to see him in that top 4 match. Dude had practically nothing but duals out there.

2 Blast: This was mainly for early plays against Goblins, or Bobs, anything with 1 toughness, sometimes 2 if I can cast twice w/ dredge. Also would have been good for mirrors, as they nuke Ichorid, PImp, and Moeba. Fuel for my Bridges/nuking theirs, or taking their creatures out if I haven't seen a Bridge. Truthfully, these slots were just to get more dredge if I needed it faster, and I think they have use in certain tough matches. Probably won't stick around though.

Mystical Tutor: It's been discussed in the thread for a few pages, being able to dig for an answer that doesn't immediately go into hand, keeping it safe from discard until you draw into it. In addition to SW, it can be gotten immediately. I really wanted to see how it worked, unfortunately for the games I sided them in (alongside Chain) I NEVER saw one. So I really can't say whether or not I like them. They'll stick around for now though.

The rest (4 Chain of Vapor, 1 Unmask) were obvious, as they've been in the build forever. I need some kind of answer to Leyline/Jailer (sometimes Crypt, if I can afford to lose the yard), and Unmask was practically an MVP when I was able to cast them. 4 Therapy + 4 Unmask made for some really, really good disruption.

I think I've put out enough for this reply, so I'll get back to working on my short tournament report, if I remember any of it.

[Tenant_Tron]

@T.T: I have to seriously disagree about SW now. He is ridiculous. Every time I had him in my hand, I loved it. I pay 2 life for guaranteed dredge. Then I use the same dredge engine enabler to bring back an Ichorid. The deck literally was beating opponents solely on Ichorid + zombies and PImp beats about 3/4 the time. I only had to really combo out twice. Even against an LED list in the top 8, I beat him down to 8 JUST because of early PImp dredging hitting Ichorid and Moebas, then finally saw the FKZ and closed the deal. SW enables me to dredge far more often, and far more consistently, and in multiples, he's just downright sick. He also makes playing on the draw much more retarded.

Every game 2 I saw that I had a Troll, I passed turn and discarded. I had one game where 2 of these guys were in my hand, I discarded my Troll, waited until the end of their turn, dredged it, then saw another, dredged that, and went off on my turn 2. 4 life and I'm 12 cards deeper in my library (17 by my draw step) and I hadn't even cast a spell yet, on top of having 2 guaranteed Ichorid removers. I'm very doubtful I'm cutting him back now. To put it bluntly, I NEVER had him in my hand for more than a turn, and he never drew me a card.

Like, I understand what Street Wraith does for the deck, but I just dont see how its better than any other slot in the deck. For instance, I would rather have Unmask in order to assure me an LED/Breakthrough/DA/Coliseum combo of 2-4 dredges on the spot than gaurantee the 1 free dredge with SW. SW seems like it would be very useful in a version of Dredge that was solely built around swing with an army of Ichorids/Zombies/Ashen Ghouls/Nether Shadows, but I think every other card in the deck is better at the Ichorid Combo part of the deck. Basically, I realize SW is good, but I dont think it really fits in with the combo side of the deck all that much, which is what this particular thread is about after all.

T.T

[DeathwingZERO]

Like, I understand what Street Wraith does for the deck, but I just dont see how its better than any other slot in the deck. For instance, I would rather have Unmask in order to assure me an LED/Breakthrough/DA/Coliseum combo of 2-4 dredges on the spot than gaurantee the 1 free dredge with SW. SW seems like it would be very useful in a version of Dredge that was solely built around swing with an army of Ichorids/Zombies/Ashen Ghouls/Nether Shadows, but I think every other card in the deck is better at the Ichorid Combo part of the deck. Basically, I realize SW is good, but I dont think it really fits in with the combo side of the deck all that much, which is what this particular thread is about after all.

T.T

How does it not fit into the combo? You realize that bringing Ichorid back practically every turn gives a BETTER chance of seeing your combo faster now? He's additional Dredge, Ichorid recursion...........that = faster dredge and easier DR flashback. Could you name a card that does both?

[Tenant_Tron]

How does it not fit into the combo? You realize that bringing Ichorid back practically every turn gives a BETTER chance of seeing your combo faster now? He's additional Dredge, Ichorid recursion...........that = faster dredge and easier DR flashback. Could you name a card that does both?

Casting Breakthrough, Careful Study, Deep Analysis, or activating Cephalid Coliseum do better by dredging more, potentially finding Narcomoebas in order to DR combo with, leaving returning Ichorid as more of a backup as its always been in case you dont hit enough Narc/Bridge/DR upon using a larger card-drawing engine. I mean I guess if Street Wraith isnt in the deck over any of those cards sure he helps, but there isnt any room for him without cutting LED/Breakthrough/DA, as far as I can tell.

[kicks_422]

He still runs all of those cards except for DA, which loses its worth when LED is cut. Also, all those cost mana.

I'm not in favor of going down to 2 Breakthroughs, but Street Wraith isn't something to be dismissed just because it only lets you dredge once. DeathWingZERO's list (and mine, as well) are pretty different from the norm, but I think I speak for him as well that we have faith in the changes we made. I'm going to run my build at GP Manila (borrowing most of the cards from Herbig) so that I'll have concrete test results aside from MWS games (where almost everyone quits after the first dredge).

Another thing... Since I already have the protection of Unmask (which allows me to not to need to rush) and the fact that I've only DR'd for Cephalid Sage only once in all the games I've played with this deck, I'm thinking of cutting Sage for something else. Maybe MD that Primus in the SB, or Sundering Titan... Or maybe even Eternal Witness... I dunno, I just feel that a dredge enabler isn't what I need in the other DR target slot.

[deviant]

This is what I'd be running for the md if a tournament would present itself:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug (or -1 Thug, +1 Darkblast)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below

4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough (+1 (2!!) would be nice..)
4 Street Wraith

2 Dread Return
2 Ancestor's Chosen / Titan / Angel of Despair

Things to notice: I'm a sucker for the md one-of Darkblast.
The Breakthroughs could be cut to make room for the 4th Coliseum, and maybe a 3rd DR. Testing would help here :)

Anyway, this kinda build just aims to overwhelm the opponent with Ichorids and Zombies while disrupting them violently. Chosen makes them unable to race you, and Titan can just be the nail in the coffin. I think I'd prefer the angel here for now though, just because of the versatility. Darkblast should work here better than it did in the combo-centric version.

Just my take on the deck. I think I'll take out the rest of the breakthroughs and try to force someone to play against me (people don't like the deck..) just to see how it works out. It might not, but we'd know it.

[kyan]

While I am no expert on the topic, I have also been testing the possibility of using Street Wraith in the deck and I think that he needs to be placed back in the deck. Basically, everyone has been going back and forth using old and new (in which the "new" are actually old tech themselves) deck tech. We're just basically interchanging cards from the commonly agreed upon pool of cards that can be used for the deck. And it is so awesome that there is so much possibility for improvement that opposing decks are kept on their toes on what tech they need to bring to combat Ichorid.

Anyway, enough babbling, here is the list that I am currently using. Please feel free to comment, I just want to contribute to this forum and see how the deck itself would improve from the discussions.

// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [OV] Underground River (I have yet to buy a set of City of Brass)

// Creatures
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [FUT] Street Wraith

// Spells
2 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
3 [MM] Unmask (I really want to make it a set... Probably cut a land or LED for it)
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [FNM] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard (Very specific to my Meta, everyone's SB depends on the meta they're in)
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair


We all have our opinions on whether we should cut or include LED / Breakthrough / DA over SW & Unmask, and all the combinations of inclusions and deductions with the mentioned cards. As seen in the current list, I've tried as much to include them all since they all help the deck to combo out (notably breakthrough / LED / DA) while also including the points raised for SW (draw for dredging that is immune to countermagic, as well as an outlet for Ichorid or Unmask if need be)

Most of the cards that are already considered staple are unchanged (dredgers, enablers, etc.). What I'm focusing on is how to balance the inclusion of Breakthrough, Deep Analysis, LED, Unmask, and SW.

First, why only 2 Breakthroughs? It is an awesome card that enables us to possibly dredge 4 times and still get to discard our hand for a potential dredge to Coliseum, DA, or by dredging your next draw. Sometimes, we can even Breakthrough for 1, and hold on to another copy of Breakthrough which in turn would result to an almost auto win since you'll be dredging 8 cards by then. That is, assuming that you have a dredger in the yard.

It's great to combo out using Breakthrough, that's why 4 copies are used by most lists. But I think 4 copies are too much. We need a couple of conditions in order to use Breakthrough properly.

1. Have the mana to cast it, which is usually just 1 blue.

2. Have a dredger in the yard or have an effect that would place a dredger in the yard prior to Breakthrough.

3. Assume that the opponent does not have countermagic or any disruption that will affect Breakthrough or the dredgers in the yard.


If you've been able to cast it, you've pretty much emptied your hand afterwards so do not expect to cast something else. Assuming that you've probably combo'd out or have won after casting Breakthrough, then you do not have a problem. But there are instances that you do not have enough dredgers in the yard that you end up drawing instead of dredging, or your opponent disrupts your combo with countermagic, extirpating your dredger, etc.

Now these are probably much very basic to most of you guys, but I want to point out that Breakthrough is not needed in multiples because you only need to cast it once at the most in order to gain a very dominant position over your opponent, or even just win the game by combo'ing out. Having a full set of them is quite redundant since you only need to use it once in order for it to work well for you.

The obvious concern here is that we usually place 4 copies of it in order to increase the chances of drawing breakthrough. Sure, 4 copies means that you get to possibly draw it 4 out of every 15 cards drawn (please correct me if I'm wrong in this assumption, I'm bad with math). But more copies means more chances of drawing the card. But like I said, once we cast a single copy of it properly, we pretty much have combo'd out or have gotten a very dominant position in the game. The reasoning in just placing 2 copies of Breakthrough is very different with the way that we only include 1-2 copies of Dread Return, Flame-kin Zealot, Deep Analysis, and Cephalid Sage, since the mentioned cards are easily cast (sans disruption of course) from the graveyard (which is easily filled via dredging) as opposed the need to draw Breakthrough and then casting it from your hand.

Yet drawing into it is not enough for the deck to win. There are numerous ways for the opponent to foil your combo and do all sorts of nasty things to you before you go retaliate with an attack or disruption. Surely, placing it down to just 2 copies lessens the chances that you draw into it. But the additional 2 slots that you open up for your deck means that you can add other cards that can either disrupt your opponent long enough for you to draw a card that you need or combo out.

Are 2 copies of Breakthrough enough? I believe so. But the question that remains here is that will a player be able to draw into Breakthrough easily enough. No, you will barely draw into Breakthrough and you will barely be able to cast it.

Then why discuss the whole thing in such a long argument (I haven't even touched on SW, LED, and the other cards yet) if in the end, I contradict myself in saying that minimizing it to just 2 copies would obviously reduce the chances of drawing into it. Simply put, the deck does not need Breakthrough that much in order to win a game.



-Please pause for a moment and clear your mind. I'm sure it has been a long boring read for any veteran MTG player, but I hope newbies get some sense from what I've written above, and the ensuing paragraphs below-



Because it isn't only Breakthrough that wins you games. As simple as that. Ichorid is a very simple deck to play should you wish to use it that way. Yet, the past months / years opened it up to improvement by adding disruption and various other tricks for it to win more consistently. The original concept was to win quickly in turn 1-2 by comboing out. But in competitive MTG, that is hardly the case, your opponent will most likely have something to disrupt your gameplan.

Breakthrough is an awesome card for the deck to combo out and win, but the deck needs more out of cards in order for it to win competitive magic. What I'm aiming for improving Ichorid is to still have that explosiveness but at the same time, have a back up plan in case you fall short on it. As Breakthrough is pretty much an all in play, then having only 2 copies of it would suffice since by casting it, most of the time you've already won. But there would be situations that you would not need it at all and instead, would need to disrupt or move past your oppoenent's disruption in order to win the game.


It is with a similar reasoning that I've cut out Cephalid Sage. I've rarely needed to use him. More so that I have Deep Analysis to help me draw / dredge. The only drawback that I mostly see with DA is that you do not get to discard your dredgers afterwards, which CS can, for later dredging. It's either I cast Breakthrough, DA, or Coliseum that I get the extra draws / dredge from. In old games, I usually use him to combo out, but I've rarely done so nowadays since I usually beat with Ichorids and Zombies enough to win. I usually attack 2 turns in a row instead of going for 1 big all or nothing attack. Moreso that I am free to attack for several turns or so thanks to the disruption that Unmask & Cabal Therapy bring, or that I am able to move past disruptive countermagic through SW and dredging at the end of my opponent's turn, then removing SW to beat with Ichorid on my turn.


As such, the list allows the use of DA and SW as potential draw or dredge as opposed to Breakthrough's drawing then discard your hand effect. You get to choose if you need to draw or dredge (most of the time, you only need to dredge though). But aside from that, they offer other tricks for the player since DA can be cast from the graveyard (very seldomly from the hand), and SW has the synergy for either draw & dredge, or to remove it for Ichorid, Therapy, or Unmask. They circumvent the weakness of Breakthrough being an all in card by giving the player choices on how to use DA and SW.



-I guess I'm running out of steam in writing this. All I wanted was to point out the benefits of running all of the cards in the deck and I ended up rambling on Breakthrough (which I intend for the newbies to read, veteran MTG players forgive me for the long post).-



Maybe you guys could comment on the list first? Most of the points for including SW, LED, DA, etc have been finely discussed already by previous posts (which have really influenced me in revising the deck), and in turn, have been rebutted and discussed extensively by other people as well. I also want to duscuss that you do not need to win in just one turn / attack. The disruption given by Therapy and Unmask give you additional time to beat your opponent which allows you to swing mostly unopposed for 2-3 consecutive turns. It is more flexible than just going for an all in attack, but at the same time, you still have that option to go all in should the need arise (or should the oppurtunity present itself).


Anyway, thanks for reading. Maybe I could edit this later to shorten it and go to the main point/s. Or just keep to myself and continue to troll this thread.


-Kyan


There's a side event for Legacy in the Manila GP. Perfect for deck testing these ideas. Hopefully the list is solid, or that someone comes up with a better list soon.

[Joe_C]

Ive been playing this for a week or so now(having played vintage ichorid quite a bit before so I do have a solid understanding of the dec), and I've gone back and forth on a few things.

Using the build Anwar placed in the top 8 with not that long ago, I made small changes and tested, made larger changes and tested, went back to his version, and tested, and I see only a few things that we need to take in mind if you plan to play ichorid in legacy:

1. Make up your mind about what kind of gameplan you want when removing/adding cards to the "generic" list. Winning turn 1 with unmask/therapy protection is the BEST win condition we have. Losing the speed of LED(although after your openeing had, LED is quite less important), denies us turn 1 victory for the most part.

2. Cephalid sage "should" be a one of if you run dread return in the deck. Often I find I have a dread return and a sage, and not enough bridges to make a flame-kin kill possible, and also no flame-kin in the grave. Sage solves this hands down

3. Unmask "should" be in the deck. Raping their hand or unmasking yourself aids turn 1 victory. The 3 Anwar ran maindecked and that I have been playing with seems ideal

4. Deep analysis is just perfectly broken in this deck along with LED.

5. Playing balls to the wall game 1 can win you games, I have pulled turn 1's with insane openings that RELIED on me running Deep analysis/LED in the deck.. I feel strongly this "need"s to be in there.

6. The deck can lose to itself, you need a little luck from the shuffling gods. But practice practice practice makes recognizing keepable hands and how to play them more instinctive.

I plan to play my build this weekend at a tourney. I will write a report and how I felt about it's performance/my performance hopefully that evening

[DeathwingZERO]

There's absolutely NO reason to win turn 1 in this format. NONE. In fact, I'd say even pushing yourself to attempt winning before turn 3 is far too much overextension, as it's just not necessary. A consistent 3 turn clock with the ability to Unmask and Therapy will beat a damn good majority of the field. In fact, first game the only two decks I even care about seeing are mirror matches and TES. Everything else needs to board it's hate for us.

With that said, I'm sticking to not using LED and DA anymore. I find that the engine I have of 14 ways to draw outside of my once a turn is insanely high, and being that 10 of them (everything but Wraith) discards, that's also highly consistent. After extensive game 1 testing with both versions, I'm also completely sold on the fact that a .1 turn speed loss is well worth the insane consistency and beater potential the new version is doing for me. On top of that, games 2 and 3 give me way more options to draw into my answers, especially counting most of them require 1 mana or less.

[kicks_422]

There's absolutely NO reason to win turn 1 in this format.

QFT. LED and DA are good for accelerating you to the win in turns 1 and 2, but why would you need to? With the addition of Unmask and a more stable dredge engine, a turn 3 win with their hand ripped to shreds is just as good as an LED/DA fueled Turn 1 kill. Of course you can fit all of them into the deck, but that makes the deck more vulnerable to grave hate G2 and G3.

Yeah, with LED+DA you have a better chance of beating Storm decks such as TES and Belcher, but I'd rather take the loss and then hope that Thresh knocks them out of contention of T8 so Ichorid won't face them again.

[Joe_C]

By no means am I discrediting your build gentlemen. I am saying that I feel the way I choose to play the deck is to go for the combo if I can. I have the option to do either in my build. Yes, running careful study will get you more choices in the long game, I choose to end the game before my opponent can get into it at all. Ichorid can be slowed to a crawl after the first few turns if they play the right cards. What do you do against blood moon/magus of the moon? You have no way to produce your colors of mana. I have faced this, and have pulled off wins due to LED

[kicks_422]

To each his own, I suppose. If going all out a la Belcher is what you're comfortable with, then there's nothing we can say that can change your mind, is there?

A first turn Moon effect sucks though. I guess DDD will be the only way out for that, aside from Unmask shenanigans - which would be a problem if DS gets a fast clock online quick. A Moon effect dropped later than Turn 2 won't affect the game much though.

[deviant]

By no means am I discrediting your build gentlemen. I am saying that I feel the way I choose to play the deck is to go for the combo if I can. I have the option to do either in my build. Yes, running careful study will get you more choices in the long game, I choose to end the game before my opponent can get into it at all. Ichorid can be slowed to a crawl after the first few turns if they play the right cards. What do you do against blood moon/magus of the moon? You have no way to produce your colors of mana. I have faced this, and have pulled off wins due to LED

Against 1st turn moon? Unmask shenanigans? EOT discard + SW? DS can get really slow draws sometimes. And a 1st turn moon is a very good reason to keep the hand, even if it's retardedly slow otherwise.
Ichorid can often race DS with just DDD because all non-pit-dragon threats they run can be blocked with PImps, Moebas, Zombies and whatnot. And Pit-Dragon can be fogged with the aforementioned Moebas and PImps.
(stupid dredge deck)

EDIT: Why is this named Ichorid-combo btw? Even the "combo-versions" seem to play like 4 combo-pieces.. Not much of a combo now is it? It's like calling Thresh combo just because counter-top just wins games. Or Stifle-Naught. (Our "combo" is also 2 cards: DR+FKZ) As I see it, we are a disruptive aggro deck. The combo-part in the title might be misleading
to some people?

EVEN MORE EDIT: DS is definitely more combo than us: Mox, City, Song, Cotv=1, Blood Moon, GG?

[Joe_C]

[QUOTE=deviant;258326]

EDIT: Why is this named Ichorid-combo btw? Even the "combo-versions" seem to play like 4 combo-pieces.. Not much of a combo now is it? It's like calling Thresh combo just because counter-top just wins games. Or Stifle-Naught. (Our "combo" is also 2 cards: DR+FKZ) As I see it, we are a disruptive aggro deck. The combo-part in the title might be misleading
to some people?
QUOTE]


Actually, with the right opening hand, we have the most unstoppable combo in the game. TES and such need to pay draw, acceleration, and sometimes get lucky getting into a win condition.Ichorid needs to play only 1-2 actual spells and the rest is dredging into a win. Which if we cant combo, leads us to ichorid/ zombie beats. If they fail, their hand is empty and they get romped on. Making the combo resilient and consistent is the approach I intend to take with the deck. Even trying to combo and failing is setting us up for a turn 2-4 win.

[Parcher]

God, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. This is why I don't post here normally, I can't believe how many people completely lack a fundamental understanding of the deck.

First, If you choose to omit Breakthrough due to concern over an opponent disrupting it's casting, you do not understand the deck. Ichorid has more quick disruption than any deck in Legacy not using Dark Ritual. Breakthrough will almost always be cast by turn two. This means that Force and Daze are the only relevant spells (Painter decks notwithstanding). If you are unable to play it through these, you probably shouldn't have kept the hand. If they do stop it, so what? Odds are that they are a Control deck, and you can still slow Dredge to win. No one maindecked Unmask in Legacy before my build, the cards usually aren't individually powerful unough to warrant it. The only reason I included it was specifically to guarantee being able to cast LED/DA/Breakthrough. Adding it as a awful discard spell so you can remove your strictly worse "draw spell" to it, and therefore be unable to use your "draw spell" (that costs life) to trigger an Ichorid (which becomes your default game plan since you can't draw multiple cards a turn) seems....like a brilliant idea.

There is no card outside of Ichorid in Legacy that says "Pay one, Draw 24 cards". The power of Breakthrough is one of the only things that makes Ichorid even viable. Which brings me to my second point.

If you think that speed doesn't matter, you do not understand Legacy. If you think two-three turns don't matter in Ichorid, you lack a complete fundamental understanding of the deck. The most egregious of these comments that I have seen concern post-sideboarded games. This is when the deck's speed most matters. Any graveyard hate should have been either discarded or won though excepting Leyline of the Void and Tormod's Crypt. Is that clear enough? To put it most simply, If you win before your opponent is able to effectively implement their plan, their plan becomes irrelevant. Leyline needs at least eight cards in the SB to deal with effectively. Crypt can be dealt with without SB cards if properly planned for. The only situation where attempting to win quickly can be incorrect is when you Dredge the better part of your library, and your opponent topdecks a Crypt or Jailer, and you don't have a way to counter it. This deck's SB cards are specifically added not to disrupt the oppenent, but to allow the continuation of the combo. They have to draw and play crypt, hope you don't have a Needle, and/or remove your Needle, and still stop you from winning all in two turns? The odds of this happening it the extemely short timespan that an properly built Ichorid deck gives the enemy to work with are long enough that hamstringing the deck to try and Dredge less cards to avoid it seems laughable. If so, if you suspect this, (Brainstorm in response to discard from a deck that typically runs Crypt is a good indicator) it is quite easy to slow Dredge at that point into a win. The decks will have these plays available rarely have a discernable clock to back them up.

[Tenant_Tron]

I agree 100% with everything Parcher said, these LED/Breakthrough lacking lists with Street Wraith being overly championed are abominations to anyone who knows the deck at all, plain and simple.

T.T

[Pulp_Fiction]

While I have not tested out the Street Wraith thing yet it still seems like a solid plan and it certainly appears so. I am not so sure about this:

How exactly do we define slow? Any one of these Dredge builds wins before turn 5 with consistently. Last time I checked that is Goblins speed and they aren't considered slow. Who really cares how fast the deck wins so long as it wins? Saying this list is better than that without testing both is just stupid. And your particular build on a deck might be the best to you, but not everyone else. Why would you say there is no room for innovation in a deck like this? Dredge is one of the weirdest fucking decks to ever exist because it does a whole lot of nothing and then wins off of that nothing and is generally immune to any form of hate cards your oppponent plays that doesn't effect the entire graveyard. Again, who really cares how or when you win a legacy game, just so long as you do and with consistency.

[DeathwingZERO]

I agree 100% with everything Parcher said, these LED/Breakthrough lacking lists with Street Wraith being overly championed are abominations to anyone who knows the deck at all, plain and simple.

T.T

This "abomination" RACED an LED and 4x Breakthrough list because I ripped his hand and beat him with Ichorids and zombies from turns 2-4. I didn't even have to combo against him, I already had 3 Moebas, PImp, 6 zombies and 3 Ichorids online by turn 4. That was post-board, by the way. The first game I combo'd out turn 2.

Also, Parcher, my list is NOT slower with cutting out LED. In fact, the list that you gave Anwar was the one I was testing next to, and this version was hitting a turn 2-3 combo way more often than that one, just because I have more draw opportunities (you know, the ones that "only dredge one card"). I still play 2 Breakthrough, as I find it nice to have when I already have a dredge engine set, and Cephalid Sage or Dread Return haven't hit the yard. Otherwise, I'll just use it to pitch x+4 cards into the graveyard when I know it's not a risk, which almost guarantees I go off next draw opportunity (if not now). I may even go back up to a 3rd Breakthrough just to see it a little more often. And saying I can't draw multiple times a turn is just a downright lie, because I know you haven't tested this build. On my first turn, I have Breakthrough or Study online, AND Wraith. You'll have DA to work with off LED, if your lucky enough to see one of the two in the deck hit the yard when you break it. To put it simply LED =/= draw. Street Wraith =/= mana source. There's your difference. You want mana, or another draw attempt?

I know plenty about speed (I've been a combo player since 2000, name a combo deck in Vintage and Legacy that's hit near DTB status post separation and I've probably at least tested with it), and frankly in game 1 it really doesn't matter. I know the deck has a goldfish rate of turn 3, and I know a good majority of that time it's backed by at least 2-3 Therapy + Unmask if I needed it. If I am not aiming to kill by turn 3, I'm aiming to kill faster than that. All I'm really saying is that turn 1 kills are unnecessary to overextend to accomplish, a consistent turn 3 clock is still faster than non-combo decks. I'll be happy to take those turn 1 kills if I see I can though, but the opportunity is typically very rare.

As for Blood Moon, I actually don't care as much as I used to. This might be because I plan on keeping Islands in the SB for anti-wastelock and BM effects, but also just because I still have a draw step and 4 Street Wraith. If I have to DDD and beat them down with Ichorids and zombies, I will. I've yet to see a DS deck out here though, as the only person I know to have had it built hated it. Our metagame wasn't balanced enough for DS to do good, there's too much jank for it. Same with Chalice, which is why I put back in Study and Breakthrough, counters in their hand are much easier for me to take away than a permanent.

[Tenant_Tron]

This "abomination" RACED an LED and 4x Breakthrough list because I ripped his hand and beat him with Ichorids and zombies from turns 2-4. I didn't even have to combo against him, I already had 3 Moebas, PImp, 6 zombies and 3 Ichorids online by turn 4. That was post-board, by the way. The first game I combo'd out turn 2.

Also, Parcher, my list is NOT slower with cutting out LED. In fact, the list that you gave Anwar was the one I was testing next to, and this version was hitting a turn 2-3 combo way more often than that one, just because I have more draw opportunities (you know, the ones that "only dredge one card"). I still play 2 Breakthrough, as I find it nice to have when I already have a dredge engine set, and Cephalid Sage or Dread Return haven't hit the yard. Otherwise, I'll just use it to pitch x+4 cards into the graveyard when I know it's not a risk, which almost guarantees I go off next draw opportunity (if not now). I may even go back up to a 3rd Breakthrough just to see it a little more often. And saying I can't draw multiple times a turn is just a downright lie, because I know you haven't tested this build. On my first turn, I have Breakthrough or Study online, AND Wraith. You'll have DA to work with off LED, if your lucky enough to see one of the two in the deck hit the yard when you break it. To put it simply LED =/= draw. Street Wraith =/= mana source. There's your difference. You want mana, or another draw attempt?

I know plenty about speed (I've been a combo player since 2000, name a combo deck in Vintage and Legacy that's hit near DTB status post separation and I've probably at least tested with it), and frankly in game 1 it really doesn't matter. I know the deck has a goldfish rate of turn 3, and I know a good majority of that time it's backed by at least 2-3 Therapy + Unmask if I needed it. If I am not aiming to kill by turn 3, I'm aiming to kill faster than that. All I'm really saying is that turn 1 kills are unnecessary to overextend to accomplish, a consistent turn 3 clock is still faster than non-combo decks. I'll be happy to take those turn 1 kills if I see I can though, but the opportunity is typically very rare.

As for Blood Moon, I actually don't care as much as I used to. This might be because I plan on keeping Islands in the SB for anti-wastelock and BM effects, but also just because I still have a draw step and 4 Street Wraith. If I have to DDD and beat them down with Ichorids and zombies, I will. I've yet to see a DS deck out here though, as the only person I know to have had it built hated it. Our metagame wasn't balanced enough for DS to do good, there's too much jank for it. Same with Chalice, which is why I put back in Study and Breakthrough, counters in their hand are much easier for me to take away than a permanent.

Its like Parcher said, Unmask is a good card mostly for protecting your big draw spells like Breakthrough/DA, so I have no idea why you advocate Unmask and then say the deck can afford to be slower now, since Unmask actually makes us faster, which is good. And speed DOES matter a whole lot post board because you dont want to give them time to find their hate. Even game 1, you dont want decks finding outs to you, and decks like TES and the mirror do exist. Im not saying your list is bad, any deck built to do the same basic thing as Dredge/Ichorid Combo is going to be fast, resilient, and good, but I dont agree that change for what seems like the sake of change is good, especially when it slows down a combo deck for no real upside.

T.T

[DeathwingZERO]

Stop saying "slows it down". It's .1 of a turn. And this isn't some flimsy result, this is 100+ game one goldfishing attempts with EACH deck. I saw consistent results from both, and decided mine had more opportunities to abuse CotV not being in my metagame, so I went with it.

Again, I am not saying mine is better. What I AM saying is mine isn't worse. I can still combo out consistently, but now I don't HAVE to combo out consistently, and I find that a much better avenue to work with. If I have two options of winning rather than one, why would I lose that option just because I want mana that can only be used on a land or a 2 of that can only be cast from the yard? I went up to 12 lands to put back in the 4th Coliseum. I still play the same game Parcher does, because the fundamentals of the engine are still the same: Draw = Dredge, 3 creatures on board + Bridges in yard = DR Flashback -> Win. I just added in the little bit of 4x more opportunities to both draw and bring Ichorid back, because I saw that as more consistency. The fact he's actually won me games over having to combo was a side effect that happens to be a positive thing.

And no, just because I have Unmask and Therapy I'm not saying to play slower. I'm saying you CAN. Going off turn 2-3 is still the optimal play, and if you KNOW your hand is a Godhand, go off turn 1. I'm saying if I can't do that, my list is able to roll with the punches more often thanks to Wraith letting Ichorid come back and swing for 3. More opportunities for more damage = more wins.

If you see a metagame that will make LED+DA lists better than Wraith/Study/Breakthrough, then play that. If not, run the Wraith list a few times, and see which you like better, it's all a matter of style. I'm just as fond of playing aggro as I am combo, which is why I wanted the deck to have more than a combo for it's win condition. It takes nothing away from the combo, because it's still there.

Also, I've discussed this with a lot of people that have been either posting or reading this thread. Consider TES a wash. Just do it. You have ONE combo deck that's faster and more resilient than you, and the mirror match just means you didn't win, it's not saying that Ichorid lost that match. I'm still up in the air on testing Islands + Wonder "tech" for the mirror, but I am also uncertain what my sideboard will be, because my meta isn't the same as others. But that's why my list works.

[Tenant_Tron]

Stop saying "slows it down". It's .1 of a turn. And this isn't some flimsy result, this is 100+ game one goldfishing attempts with EACH deck. I saw consistent results from both, and decided mine had more opportunities to abuse CotV not being in my metagame, so I went with it.

Everything else you said except for this seems logical and agreeable, but I refuse to believe that cutting LED/DA/some Breakthroughs only slows the deck down ".1 turn." Im sorry, having played the deck as much as I have, I know this cannot be the case. Im not calling you a liar per se, but I guess I kinda am, either that or something went very wrong with your testing...

[Sims]

Everything else you said except for this seems logical and agreeable, but I refuse to believe that cutting LED/DA/some Breakthroughs only slows the deck down ".1 turn." Im sorry, having played the deck as much as I have, I know this cannot be the case. Im not calling you a liar per se, but I guess I kinda am, either that or something went very wrong with your testing...



Simple solution. Do the same test yourself. Test both versions of the deck, 100+ games each, using the same goldfishing "standards" so that there is multiple data entries and a conclusion can be reached. I would do this myself as a non-bias party, however, I'm just bothering to start looking at this deck again and don't think my own playskills with it would be up to snuff. However, since you claim such high level of experience with the deck (or parcher/anwar/bane as I know they do play with it a bit) then it would be better for one of you guys to follow up the experiment and figure out if people are bullshitting or if the results stand up to the multi-person testing.

[Mayk0l]

This "abomination" RACED an LED and 4x Breakthrough list because I ripped his hand and beat him with Ichorids and zombies from turns 2-4. I didn't even have to combo against him, I already had 3 Moebas, PImp, 6 zombies and 3 Ichorids online by turn 4. That was post-board, by the way. The first game I combo'd out turn 2.


And this is coming from the guy who said I shouldn't ever give a small series of playtesting games (against TES) any value whatsoever, who's now validating his deck on one mirror-match.

For the record, I playtested combo again. Almost 20 games against a good TES player, and got above the 50% border. The only way that was possible were the 4-5 turn 1 LED/Breakthrough kills.

[Tenant_Tron]

Simple solution. Do the same test yourself. Test both versions of the deck, 100+ games each, using the same goldfishing "standards" so that there is multiple data entries and a conclusion can be reached. I would do this myself as a non-bias party, however, I'm just bothering to start looking at this deck again and don't think my own playskills with it would be up to snuff. However, since you claim such high level of experience with the deck (or parcher/anwar/bane as I know they do play with it a bit) then it would be better for one of you guys to follow up the experiment and figure out if people are bullshitting or if the results stand up to the multi-person testing.

Yeah youre right I could do this, but I simply do not have the time or the need to since the conclusion is very obvious. The only reason Im speaking up is because I do not like to see clear falsities perpetrated about the deck, since less experienced players may actually believe them. There is no way cutting spells that draw 4 and 2 cards in favor of a card that draws 1 card does not slow down the deck, its really as simple as that.

T.T

[kyan]

To each to his own then. All that matters to me is that you win and have fun playing the deck. These variations really help in improving the deck, but to say whether one list is superior over the other is really far off. Even to the point that people berate other people's comments on the deck without testing them out first themselves. Nobody here has a "PhD on Ichorid", or that they have mastered Legacy to the point that what they say about it comes out as bible truth.

Factors such as consistency, speed, disruption, etc. are not controllable anyway, you can just improve the chances of things happening your way by having a specific list that caters to the factors that you want to improve / rely on for the deck.

If you get a bad draw, no deck list is gonna help you. Luck still factors into every game, no matter how good you are; or how good your list is. I'm not saying that we rely on luck. No, just stick to the effective build that you're comfortable with and have fun. As with with what PulpFiction said, I don't care how or when I win a legacy game, just so long as I do and with consistency.

That's why I'm sticking with a variation of DeathwingZero's build. I get multiple draws from 0-1cc draw spells, tricks that SW can bring to a game, and still retain explosiveness in the combo while having the option to aggro if the plan is disrupted. It's its consistency that make it so reliable in games and tournaments. Sure, I still get the rare bad hand, but hey, who doesn't.

If a different build (LED / DA, etc.) or a different deck (TES, etc.) altogether outraces me, then fine, good job to the player who beat me. But as long as I am winning with the list, and I'm having fun doing so, then I'm happy.

Sometimes, us MTG players get too serious about winning or in making a point. As long as it doesn't feel like I'm taking crazy pills to convince other people about my ideas, then I'm fine and happy. ^________^ I'm just a humble MTG player who's having fun with this deck.


And as CorruptedAngel said, I hope people who have a very high level of play skill / experience on this deck do some testing of their own with the different lists. Multiperson testing is a good way to bring up solid points on these experiments on the different builds.

[Parcher]

Let me clarify a few points:

1. I never commented on any specific build, only on the inclusion of certain cards in Ichorid over the omission of others.

2. Goldfishing means absolutely nothing. Seriously.

Even disregarding the non-opponent related distractions that are guaranteed at tournaments, there are literally thousands of little things different opponents with different decks can do to alter your game; even against such a non-interactive deck like Ichorid. Something as simple as burning their own creature in response to a Dread Return, or a Turn One Thoughtseize on your only discard outlet. These are commonplace, and impossible to adequately replicate outside of actual games.


My thoughts on the comparable card combinations are this:


Breakthrough draws twice as many cards as any offered alternative.
DA allows you to Dredge twice with no cards in hand, and no lands in play. Again, no comparable alternative.
LED is an irreplaceable discard outlet.
To wit, both Careful Study and Street Wraith require Dredgers in the Graveyard for them to function. Using Careful Study as a discard outlet is by definition, a slower option.
Neither Careful Study, nor Street Wraith produce mana. They can not pay for Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, etc.
A turn one win is impossible, and a turn two win is mathematically impossible without Breakthrough or LED. Regardless of whether required or not, faster is better.
LED allows you to activate Coliseum with no other lands in play. On the draw, this happens turn one.
While uncommon, Breakthrough can actually draw you additional cards. Careful Study cannot, and Street Wraith breaks even, minus two life.


While I'm certain there is more I cannot think of at the moment, a quick listing like this should make obvious the superiority of certain cards over others in conjunction with the normal functions of this deck. This does not necessarily mean that the deck with function better with one combination or the other; Magic is a complex combination of ever shifting variables. Ichorid however is deck built to abuse a broken mechanic. Playing the cards that most powerfully use this at the lowest cost, and in the shortest amount of given turns seems the best plan.

[DeathwingZERO]

Let me put this into perspective, so people understand where I am coming from.

The only differences are as follows:

Parcher's list:
-4 LED
-1 Narcomoeba
-2 Deep Analysis
-2 Breakthrough

My list:
+4 Street Wraith
+1 Cephalid Coliseum
+4 Careful Study

Now, let me give an idea of what the deck's synergies are:

Parcher's list:
Discard outlets (not counting EoT):
4x LED
4x PImp
3x Coliseum
4x Breakthrough
3x Unmask
4x Therapy
Total: 22

Mine:
4x PImp
4x Coliseum
2x Breakthrough
3x Unmask
4x Therapy
4x Careful Study
Total: 21

Draw engine (not counting turn):
Parcher:
3x Coliseum
4x Breakthrough
2x Deep
Total: 9

Mine:
4x Coliseum
2x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Street Wraith
Total: 14

Numbers based on Dredge potential/card:
Parcher:
3x Coliseum (3/card)
4x Breakthrough (4/card)
2x Deep (2/card)
Total: 9 cards @ 3.23/card average

Mine:
4x Coliseum (3/card)
4x Careful Study (2/card)
4x Street Wraith (1/card)
2x Breakthrough (4/card)
Total: 14 cards @ 2.28/card average

So he averages 1 card per draw "spell" over me, as well as an additional way to discard (either his entire hand, or what Breakthrough allows him to keep). But I beat him out on having 5 more ways to dredge, 4 of which are free. And I never have to discard my entire hand, other than 2 of my Breakthrough's going at 0. This allows me to use those 5 extra draw potential to my advantage, and that's what keeps the numbers so similar.

Actual testing brought about these results, not just saying "I have more draw, so that means I dredge more often, amirite???!?!!?" I will never post numbers I have without proper testing.

In all honesty, I welcome people to actually test both decks, and see what you like to do. If you want to play more draw spells while keeping a hand and going off in a less bombtastic way, test my build a bit. If you want to do the all-or-nothing explosion, do that. But the speed of both decks is fundamentally the same, so that's not going to factor in at all for game 1. However, for games 2 and 3, my engine is much more stable, and allows to dig for answers much more reliably. His gets a little more of a push to combo out when he does have answers, though that will more than likely change when I put in my 3rd Breakthrough.


And this is coming from the guy who said I shouldn't ever give a small series of playtesting games (against TES) any value whatsoever, who's now validating his deck on one mirror-match.

For the record, I playtested combo again. Almost 20 games against a good TES player, and got above the 50% border. The only way that was possible were the 4-5 turn 1 LED/Breakthrough kills.

I'm validating nothing. I'm saying that I was able to race an LED and Breakthrough abusing version, and that was almost all reliant on how dredge worked, and my ability to rip his hand first. For the most part, that is how the mirror will work.

As far as the TES matchup goes, I'm sure a number of people on here would like to see your results. Talking with Anwar, Edgewalker, and other Ichorid players in the area, most have considered the matchup a wash in it's entirety, unless you can race. That's not enough to make the matchup 50% though. Luck with drege is EVERYTHING here. I've just told both Anwar and Edgewalker if I see TES, I'm going to consider it a wash with my build. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to adapt.


Yeah you're right I could do this, but I simply do not have the time or the need to since the conclusion is very obvious. The only reason I'm speaking up is because I do not like to see clear falsities perpetrated about the deck, since less experienced players may actually believe them. There is no way cutting spells that draw 4 and 2 cards in favor of a card that draws 1 card does not slow down the deck, its really as simple as that.

T.T

As for you, I won't be responding to anymore of your posts until you actually DO take the time out to test them. This post makes you look like nothing more than an arrogant and ignorant prick. I'd suggest you put a little more faith into the actual results than what's written on paper. You may be genuinely surprised.

I have plenty of people that even post here who can attest that I've put in weeks worth of man hours on this build, over the past 10 months. I put in 30 hours alone on the "100 game ones" test. From the sound of it, you may have done a fraction of that.

@ Parcher: You came in before I got this reply out, so I'm not going to be able to put in a very forward reply as I'm a little pressed for time. As far as goldfishing goes, it proved to me the deck is capable of the same speed. That's all I cared about proving to myself. As far as actual play, yes, subtleties make all the difference. However, I never see Tabernacle. I see Extirpate rarely (one in 10, maybe a dozen decks per tournament?). I mostly don't see much graveyard hate to begin with games 2 and 3, and when I do it's with already unfavorable matches. And while we accomplish the same goal, we play very, very differently. However, I find mine much more attuned to my style of play, and that's the biggest reason I play it. I am merely suggesting if people like to play my version, speed is not an issue. I'm capable of a turn 2 combo (albeit that is almost absolutely reliant on luck of the dredge), and turn 3 is consistent. That really is good enough for my metagame.

[whitshadw8]

Without LED we are making our match-ups against Stax, TES and Painter (which are recently adding Trinisphere) even worst to play against. Stax and TES are already bad match-ups for us. Why are we making our worst matchups worst? I can't seem to buy the cutting LED idea.

Recently I find that I rather cut out all the Careful Study rather than Breakthrough. They work so similar to each other. Granted that Breakthrough does not let you keep your hand.......but y would you keep it anyways? I usually cast Breakthrough second turn and find that I only find the lands in my hand useful. Other cards like Unmask/Imp/LED can be cast first and SW can be cycled for free. With this said y is everyone cutting Breakthrough over Careful Study?

[Joe_C]

After toying around with Deathwing's build, I must say, it doesn't have a turn 1 win, but it has to mulligan a HELL of alot less

[DeathwingZERO]

Without LED we are making our match-ups against Stax, TES and Painter (which are recently adding Trinisphere) even worst to play against. Stax and TES are already bad match-ups for us. Why are we making our worst matchups worst? I can't seem to buy the cutting LED idea.

Recently I find that I rather cut out all the Careful Study rather than Breakthrough. They work so similar to each other. Granted that Breakthrough does not let you keep your hand.......but y would you keep it anyways? I usually cast Breakthrough second turn and find that I only find the lands in my hand useful. Other cards like Unmask/Imp/LED can be cast first and SW can be cycled for free. With this said y is everyone cutting Breakthrough over Careful Study?

I don't see how having 1 more actual land and 4 less "one shot" mana sources makes the Stax matchup worse. Chances are if you are using that LED as a mana source, it's to pay for either a creature's upkeep cost, or swinging. If that's the case, chances are it's swinging into a body, and none of our creatures have trample. In this scenario, I would take lands hand over fist against LED, seeing as they can be used more often (and to actually cast the bounce spells you sided in). Islands in the sideboard also keep them from being able to Wastelock you, and still cast answers. The only cards I am honestly afraid of against White Stax are multiple Prison effects, or Smokestack and Armageddon.

And no, Study and Breakthrough are not the same. Study is literally a U Bazaar of Baghdad. Draw 2, discard 3. In an opening hand, you'll still have cards in hand after it's cast. Breakthrough, however, is a draw 4 combined with a mind twist set to your hand size, just not random discard. As far as the dredge goes, they play the same. Their function though, is not. Study stays in post board to dig. Breakthrough doesn't.

And I've talked about TES already. With or without LED, it's a very uphill battle. It's a wash, and chances are you'll see one (maybe two) at any significant tournament. Hope they get knocked out by control decks designed to beat them, because they are the same that aren't designed to beat you. If you do have to play them, it's a race. I know I'm not going to see the deck, so my version's numbers against it mean nothing to me. If you risk seeing multiple TES builds though, I'd suggest something different. There's nothing you can tune your SB to in order to make you faster, and your disruption is the only thing able to slow them down.

[Joe_C]

4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Colisuem
4 City of Brass

4 ichorid
4 bridge from below
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
4 street wraith
4 careful study
2 lions eye diamond(yes, only 2)
2 deep analysis
4 cabal therapy
2 breakthrough
1 cephalid sage
1 flame kin zealot
2 dread return
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba

this is a blend of both worlds. Although it does not run unmask(which I find to be good in certain situations, but all and all I think the deck can live without unmask). This list can win turn 1, but has the steady ichorid recurrance that street wraith provides(I have had ALOT more turn 2/3 ichorid plays due to wraith being in here). Ive put this through a number of games and it seems to mull less than the traditional LED/Breakthrough lists. I love LED, and breakthrough, but dumping your entire hand has always seemed sketchy for me. I feel this has good balance, and can combo turn one if it has the right cards

[Ozymandias]

Another thing about LED is that it helps you postboard as well, because it allows you, in g3, to have the ability to race hate, not just counter it. SW can't lay claim to that.

[Joe_C]

in most cases LED would be the first thing to take out in game 2/3

[DeathwingZERO]

Another thing about LED is that it helps you postboard as well, because it allows you, in g3, to have the ability to race hate, not just counter it. SW can't lay claim to that.

Talk to anybody running LED about where it is in games 2 and 3. Generally speaking, it's not there. Aside from the combo in most cases, LED and sometimes Breakthrough are the first things getting taken out. You can't race Leyline, and you can't race a well timed Extirpate. LED plays into both of those cards VERY easily.

EDIT: @Bruenor: I'd stick with Unmask in the main. It alongside Therapy are pretty much the only way you are going to stick anything against TES or Stax, and often times will help you with ditching dredge cards you need to if your opponent cannot hinder you. LED is generally a 4 of or 0 of, 2 wouldn't make it seen often enough to break it (first or second turn). Also, if you want to use Wraith to power out Ichorids more often, I'd put in the 4th Coliseum over the 4th Narcomoeba. They tend to clot up your hand when drawn, and 3 is enough to see them fast when dredging into the combo kill. I've yet to miss the 4th one, unless I'm in a war of attrition and my yard was nuked.

[Parcher]

Actually LED is the second most boarded card, with Unmask being the first. That's the main reason not to run it in the sideboard. Unless your opponent is running Daze and Force, or Storm Combo, they come out. LED is next, for reasons already stated.

Breakthrough however, does not come out. The reason being that you can still use it to race, and to find answers. The problem with Street Wraith, and to a lesser degree Careful Study in post-SB games, is that they give a false sense of control. Against a deck packing Leyline, you have to open with an answer. Hoping to draw into it is a way to gain an easy loss. I've mullinganed first-turn win hands, simply because I knew from the way my opponent mulliganed that they had it. Breakthrough stays because it allows you to overcome the card disadvantage from doing this with raw speed and power.

EDIT: I guess that would be where the largest difference lies. One version has a better chance of finding answers, but cannot capitalize on that due to to relative power loss inherent in that consistency. The other has to shred it's hand to find answers, but if it does without crippling itself completely will win even faster due to it's opponent castrating their offense with hate.

[Pulp_Fiction]

And this is coming from the guy who said I shouldn't ever give a small series of playtesting games (against TES) any value whatsoever, who's now validating his deck on one mirror-match.

For the record, I playtested combo again. Almost 20 games against a good TES player, and got above the 50% border. The only way that was possible were the 4-5 turn 1 LED/Breakthrough kills.

WOW, out of 20 games you got 4-5 turn 1 kills?? This is ridiculous, why would you make up results about fake playtesting?? Dredge shows up quite frequently in my meta and I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone doing turn 1 kills. One person who used to play the deck (braves, who sold the deck after the tournament because he hated the inconsistencies) got a turn 1 kill ONCE in the 2-4 times he brought the deck. Personally I have NEVER had a turn 1 kill with the LED build and don't go into "well you don't know how to play the deck right" and all that shit because I certainly know how to play Dredge. Thats not how it is, you have to get a great hand and dredge REALLY good to get a turn 1 kill. With average person luck (which I don't have) you should kill on turn 1 maybe once out of 30-40 games. Dredge does not kill on turn 1 25% of the time, its way less than that. Now turn 2 is a whole different story but ... turn 1?? No, I don't believe that for a second.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm actually used to keeping in the 2 Breakthroughs post-board, just because they do keep me explosive while using Study or Wraith to dig. I think if I had more, I'd probably cut back to 2 just to have them, but not be heavily reliant on them.

With that, I'm still always trying to decide what's the best sideboarding strategy for most games. I like keeping in Wraith, because Ichorid beats > Narcomoeba ones, when I've pitched the combo to the board. I also like to keep Study, for digging without losing too much to Leyline if that's what I'm trying to answer. I've only sided in 13 cards once so far, but that was hell trying to determine it. I even had to try keeping in 2 DR for the Titan I brought in, which made things even more insane on my decisions.

[Joe_C]

Im not saying my list is definite yet, but the 2 LED actually comes in wuite handy. Only running 2 makes room for more cards(study/wraith) and can "get into" awesome plays. The 2 may not always get into your opening hand, but when they do they usually matchup with the other 2 ofs I run(breakthrough/analysis). When running 4 I was getting double LED and nothing effective to do with them, which made them disappointing. I feel comfortable with my list at the moment since it still allows for the turn 1 win. and has a HIGH percentage of turn 2-3. Im not saying its a perfect choice, but wraith is MAKING my list work by pumping out ichorid earlier than I have ever seen it happen. I am quite happy at the moment with him in the deck. The loss of Unmask seems tolerable in favor of explosiveness

[kicks_422]

I guess that would be where the largest difference lies. One version has a better chance of finding answers, but cannot capitalize on that due to to relative power loss inherent in that consistency. The other has to shred it's hand to find answers, but if it does without crippling itself completely will win even faster due to it's opponent castrating their offense with hate.

Then it depends on each player's style then, choosing between consistency and explosiveness... Which is a dilemma for almost every deck with a combo aspect.

[DeathwingZERO]

Im not saying my list is definite yet, but the 2 LED actually comes in wuite handy. Only running 2 makes room for more cards(study/wraith) and can "get into" awesome plays. The 2 may not always get into your opening hand, but when they do they usually matchup with the other 2 ofs I run(breakthrough/analysis). When running 4 I was getting double LED and nothing effective to do with them, which made them disappointing. I feel comfortable with my list at the moment since it still allows for the turn 1 win. and has a HIGH percentage of turn 2-3. Im not saying its a perfect choice, but wraith is MAKING my list work by pumping out ichorid earlier than I have ever seen it happen. I am quite happy at the moment with him in the deck. The loss of Unmask seems tolerable in favor of explosiveness

From all the different changes I've gone through, it seems that the combo lists especially evolve based solely on metagames. Mine allows for me to not abuse LED and Breakthrough to power out fast wins, but to steamroll through from turn 1 on into a zombie apocalypse. It's kinda like the Living Dead series, turn 1 is Night, turn 2 is Dawn, turn 3 is Day, and if for some godawful reason I haven't killed them by turn 4, it's definitely Land of the Dead. They just haven't joined the ranks yet :D

And ya, I'm a consistency whore. I've never felt like a giddy little schoolgirl nearly as much as I did piloting Dragon and to a lesser extent IGGy Pop. I think that's why I never really liked TES/Solidarity (and had so much trouble crafting TJS back in the day), was that randomly you'd just stop. Storm combo decks in general have that flaw. Dragon often got out of that by abusing the hell out of Lim Dul's Vault, and IGGy just went Intuition -> Wincon X. I'd say Ichorid plays a lot more like Dragon, just throwing things away until they come back to bite the opponent in the ass.

[kicks_422]

And the LED based explosive versions are more like Belcher with Zombies instead of Goblins.

Funny how replacing around 10 cards in the deck can change it so much.

EDIT: I hope there's something from Shards which could help the deck out. I've been hoping that ever since I found out that one of the "guilds" (I forgot what they're called in the Alara block) focus on the graveyard.

[Mayk0l]

WOW, out of 20 games you got 4-5 turn 1 kills?? This is ridiculous, why would you make up results about fake playtesting?? Dredge shows up quite frequently in my meta and I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone doing turn 1 kills. One person who used to play the deck (braves, who sold the deck after the tournament because he hated the inconsistencies) got a turn 1 kill ONCE in the 2-4 times he brought the deck. Personally I have NEVER had a turn 1 kill with the LED build and don't go into "well you don't know how to play the deck right" and all that shit because I certainly know how to play Dredge. Thats not how it is, you have to get a great hand and dredge REALLY good to get a turn 1 kill. With average person luck (which I don't have) you should kill on turn 1 maybe once out of 30-40 games. Dredge does not kill on turn 1 25% of the time, its way less than that. Now turn 2 is a whole different story but ... turn 1?? No, I don't believe that for a second.


Yeah, I'm not making it up either. Mulligan to four and win turn 1 isn't impossible either. Granted, you need to get extremely lucky on the dredges (which is also true for a seven-card hand). I don't know if it's luck or what, but I've seen it often at tournaments as well. Actually, there's a tournament report from an Ichorid player here on the Source who describes winning his first three rounds getting I believe around 3-4 turn 1 kills.
It also matters that I was playing solely against TES: since that deck has almost no disruption or even interaction with what you're playing, you're able to just (or better: have to) keep the broken hands that would die against FoW and just throw it on the table the first Main Phase you get.
Without disruption there are numerous ways of getting turn 1 Kills. Any hand with a LED and a Breakthrough (+ land), Coliseum (gg. if you hit DA) or DA (+ land to get four mana and hit a second DA) has potential of doing it (again, with lucky dredges). You sometimes (more often than not) have to mulligan to those hands.

If those 20 games were played against a Landstill deck, there would've been maybe 1 turn 1 kill. But since I cannot beat TES with slow hands, I am sort of forced to Mulligan into imba-ness, I guess I got lucky.

EDIT: Actually, now that I think of it, my friend the TES player didn't make T8 in the last tournament because his turn 1 kill on the draw got beaten by Ichorid's turn 1 kill on the play.
I have to admit, in any other not-so-suicidal MU's, I've only had a turn 1 kill on a very rare occasion like you said.

[HammafistRoob]

I was looking into playing Ichorid in legacy, I played it in type 1 with some sucess so I know the general mechanics of the deck(yes the decks are VERY different). But I was just wondering what cards are the most effective at fighting opposing combo decks(FT, TES, mirror).

I just like how the deck can pull out early wins very easily if minimally disrupted. It's pretty ill.

[Joe_C]

Im thinking overall speed and unmask/therapy are the only prayer against combo. The mirror i guess is pretty much leyline and hopefully you can race them if you drop leyline and they dont. I have'nt settled on a list yet. I like wraith in there, but then again I like unmask's protection and such. Im looking for the "perfect numbers" so I can try to meld the aggressive combo build and the slow roll consistent build. I hopefully will play this tomorrow in milford, so wish me luck in taking down a tourney with this monster of a deck we have here

Note: Would it be bad to go to 61 cards?

[DeathwingZERO]

I'd say don't go to 61, just because in reality it does really affect the numbers game, and that's what dredge is all about.

As for the turn 1 kills, IIRC it almost always requires the following:

LED, Dredge creature x2-3, Breakthrough, Land, DA (in hand or early dredged) AND hitting the Dread Return, Narcomoeba x3 (minimum), and Bridge x3 (minimum), and Flame-Kin Zealot in those cards. Basically, it's a suicidal hand and a lucksack dredge session.

Realistically, this is a very rare occurrence. 25% in a playtesting session is a very high number, I'd say the turn 1 kill is probably under 10%, statistically. But Dredge is a dumb mechanic, and you can see 4 Bridge, 4 Moeba, and a DR off the top 12 cards.

Against TES, I'd highly suggest the stupid hands like that. In the mirror, it's tricky. If you can't combo out, they can nuke your Bridges with a Therapy flashback. I personally aim to hit Ichorids by turn 2, so I can nuke theirs automatically at my EoT.

I'm still uncertain about Leyline, as it requires mulliganing to in the post-sb games. I don't really like that strategy, I'd rather just hope they mull often to find theirs, and have ways to get answers for it. You require so much in the opening hand to have a fast play that each card you lose (including the Leyline) is such a hindrance. I think it gives a false sense of security, a lot of people that have played it against me think it buys them a lot of time, and usually it won't.

[kicks_422]

In the mirror, board in Leyline and Chain of Vapor. Seeing either one means you've got an advantage of some sort. You don't have to mull into both.

I'd like to ask my question a bit earlier in the thread again... How have you all found Cephalid Sage? I've replaced it with Woodfall Primus and have been loving it, as an answer to MD hate which is usually in noncreature form (e.g. Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.)

EDIT: Actually, you only need 2 Bridges minimum. You only need 6 zombies to awing for the win with Zealot.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Street Wraith and Unmask should be played in tandem with each other, not one or the other.

Combo matchup isn't that bad unless they run Brain Freeze or go off turn 1. Them winning turn 1 isn't something you can do anything about. Obviously you can beat Spring Tide and Solidarity with teh nutz and a Therapy (Usually, anyway) naming FoW.

TES and Belcher are the worrisome ones, and FT is trouble if they run Brain Freeze. I play FT, and I use BF. They hit a third critter, I chant, go off next turn. Sometimes if they know I run brain freeze I have to grab Extirpate/Echoing Truth against Ichorid Beatz, but barring that it can be a pretty easy matchup for me.

I think Earwig Squad would be an acceptable DR target as it can grab the win conditions out of Storm builds like FT. That would screw me over. How many does TES run? I've never played it or played against it. LMK if that sounds like an option...I'll of course play test, but I'd like to know SOON as I'm going to GenCon.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

I think Earwig Squad would be an acceptable DR target as it can grab the win conditions out of Storm builds like FT. That would screw me over. How many does TES run? I've never played it or played against it. LMK if that sounds like an option...I'll of course play test, but I'd like to know SOON as I'm going to GenCon.

Read the card again. If you reanimate Squad, nothing happens.

[Joe_C]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Colisuem
4 City of Brass

4 ichorid
4 bridge from below
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 street wraith
2 careful study
2 lions eye diamond
2 deep analysis
4 cabal therapy
2 breakthrough
1 flame kin zealot
2 dread return
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
3 unmask

Well, if my ichorids show up in the mail before I need to leave to go to the tourney, this is the list I am playing. I ran this over a ton last night and feel good with it. change I may make -1 coliseum +1 wraith(ichorid activations are good/so is the free draw), or that maybe should be study #3

Last minute input? Anyone?

[DeathwingZERO]

That's a very tight combo, and not essentially abusing the best of both worlds. How's it been treating you so far? Sage I've still got a bit of a hard on for, so seeing lists that don't abuse his free dredge ability always makes me cry inside.

A few other questions:

How has the 2 DR been treating you? Ichorid beats been stable enough to not have to worry about the combo every game?

How about the lesser amounts of Dredge creatures? This list is only using 10, while I'm still really irked about only running 11. They hitting consistently enough @ 10? Also, have you tried -1 Thug +1 Stinkweed? It seems on paper that 1 more dredge would help in some cases.

You seeing the 2 ofs often enough to warrant them?

I have other thoughts about the deck, but am on the verge of crashing. I'll check back later in the afternoon for more.

[Joe_C]

actually, I made an error in that list, I fixed it now. I do run 4 stinkweed, so I run 11 dredgers. The 2 ofs that I run are really essentially conditional cards. Even with unmask in the deck, dumping your hand turn 1 to a breakthrough, led etc puts us in a luck only position with the dredge. I can play the conservative game and also combo early if I get the hand to do so. The 2 dread return has been working well, sage got removed in favor of more disruption and since I am only running 2 dread return, his presence isnt needed, Also I have been hitting consistent early ichorid beats, which turns into zombies etc... etc... Often I get to less than 10 cards in my library on turn 3, which unless god hates me=victory.

Im feeling pretty good with this now, but real life performance will tell the story. i will write a report when the tourney is over!

[kyan]

In the mirror, board in Leyline and Chain of Vapor. Seeing either one means you've got an advantage of some sort. You don't have to mull into both.

I'd like to ask my question a bit earlier in the thread again... How have you all found Cephalid Sage? I've replaced it with Woodfall Primus and have been loving it, as an answer to MD hate which is usually in noncreature form (e.g. Ghostly Prison, Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, etc.)

EDIT: Actually, you only need 2 Bridges minimum. You only need 6 zombies to awing for the win with Zealot.


Same, I board in Leyline and Chain of Vapor for the mirror, and even for threshold variants. No need to mull much since it's either you get the leyline or the vapor.

I usually board in Woodfall Primus over Cephalid Sage. But, now I'm thinking of removing Sage entirely and putting W. Primus maindeck. I'd rather get an Angel of Despair because someone piloting an animator deck often plays a Blazing Archon. But maybe Primus would do in a pinch.

[kyan]

Uhm, can anyone help me with Pithing Needle targets? I need to keep a list so that I won't forget to name the usual suspects for each color in legacy.

Can anyone help me out? Much appreciated.

[Joe_C]

Uhm, can anyone help me with Pithing Needle targets? I need to keep a list so that I won't forget to name the usual suspects for each color in legacy.

Can anyone help me out? Much appreciated.


well:

Tormods crypt
mogg fanatic
seige gang commander
wasteland
umezawa's jitte
pernicious deed
manlands

these are the ones i have seen that effect us the most. Pretty much anything that allows them to get our bridges out of the grave suck for us

[Dark_Cynic87]

So....would Unmask and Street Wraith be the way to go at say...gencon?

I don't know the Indy metagame, so it's a tough call. I was there in '04, but that doesn't help a bit.

Just thinking that more protection and uncounterable draw would be safer at a bigger event sure to be chuck-full of FoW's and high-powered lists.

Has Eternal Witness been considered as a DR target? I was thinking about it, and you could use Echoing Truth with Eternal Witness to get rid of tokens like EtW or to a MUCH lesser extent the mirror-match. Go DR-->Witness--> Response pop led--> grab E. Truth and have UUU in your mana pool for it.

LMK what u guys think.

Pce,

--DC

EDIT:

Here's the list I'm running atm:

CREATURES--27
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
3x Street Wraith
3x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Cephalid Sage

SPELLS—22
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Unmask
2x Deep Analysis
2x Careful Study
2x Dread Return
2x Breakthrough

LAND--11
4x Cephalid Coliseum
3x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine
1x Dakmor Salvage

I actually need to figure out a sideboard appropriate for an unknown metagame. Included will be the obvious:

4x Leyline of the Void
3-4x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle OR Chalice of the Void (Not sure which will be the best for an unknown meta)
1x Ancestor's Chosen (I know this isn't your guys' first pick, but it has served me well)
2-3x ???

[klaus]

@kyan:


well:
Tormods crypt
mogg fanatic
seige gang commander
wasteland
umezawa's jitte
pernicious deed
manlands


Some stuff to add:

- Engineered Explosives ! (Landstill, It's the Fear, Aggro Control)
- Arcbound Ravager (Affinity)

wastelands are hardly ever worth naming
most decks packing manlands (Landstill, Noughtstill will run Engineered Explosives and/or Crypt - so naming one of thosemakes more sense, unless you get to draw and play your 3rd Needle :wink: )

[DeathwingZERO]

Needle targets (that are some good against us):

Tormod's Crypt, Pernicious Deed, Mogg Fanatic, Engineered Explosives, Faerie Macabre, Siege Gang Commander, Wasteland (waste-lock based decks tend to slow us to a crawl, but I wouldn't say it's a common thing to call out)

Secondary targets (also some good against us, but require more effort/don't actually kill us):

Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, Umezawa's Jitte, Survival of the Fittest, Sensei's Divining Top (LUL Thresh), AEther Vial

[kyan]

Thanks a lot for the tips on needle targets guys! ^_^

I'll list them down. Sometimes, I forget to call some cards, most notably Deed and Macabre because I rarely encounter them. And when they do get to play them, it gets so hard to win.

Good thing there are backup plans in this deck should your bridges / tokens get nuked. I swear, DR a 15/15 Grave Troll after they nuke my bridges with a creature sac brings such a smile to my face.

[Joe_C]

Well, I played at Milford. Went 2-3 drop.... I got the most shitty luck off dredges today. Unbelievable. I had gone through over 30 cards and no ichorid, no moeba a few times. My hands were solid, I liked the way the list behaved. I just got driven out by bad dredges. This is what I played:
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Colisuem
4 City of Brass

4 ichorid
4 bridge from below
4 golgari grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
3 street wraith
3 careful study
2 lions eye diamond
2 deep analysis
4 cabal therapy
2 breakthrough
1 flame kin zealot
2 dread return
4 putrid imp
4 narcomoeba
3 unmask

sb:
4 pithing needle
4 Leyline of the void
4 chain of vapor
1 unmask
2 ray of revelation

I dont think my poor dredging today is worthy of a report, but I can say I didnt make any mistakes with play, just poor luck, I had engines going early and they just didnt develop for me in my losses

[DeathwingZERO]

Ya, I hear you on the bad dredges. Last time I played the deck I went 1-2 drop and randomly turned around for a 3-1-1. It really is probably one of the most unforgiving combo decks I've played. It's like a little emo child you just kinda have to constantly harp on to make something of itself.

[kicks_422]

I have it right beside me when I sleep so that the deck would feel loved. I even tell it bedtime stories about figures of the underworld to keep it in the mood.

[DeathwingZERO]

I'm pretty certain once I made the changes to accommodate how I like to play, it started to understand what I wanted it to do. I'm very superstitious about decks, especially combo ones. They either crap out on you, or go off like a charm. I believe part of that is the mutual understanding of how to get from point A to B.

Surely it has nothing to do with the hundreds of hours I've put into goldfishing and testing it against commonly seen decks in my metagame, as well as scouting for tech in my sideboards.

Surely.

[Joe_C]

Im still not sure about unmask in the deck. True it can protect against early forces, but so what? It seems alot trying to mull into a unmask along with a card we want to protect and a pitch card... This is where I am at right now:

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From below
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Street Wraith
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
3 Lions eye diamond
3 Breakthrough
1 Flame-kin Zealot
2 Deep analysis
4 Narcomoeba
3 Golgari Thug

wraiths pump out early ichorids like nobody's business. I have been loving them so far. Im not sure if I want to lose the explosiveness of LED and run a list like deathwings yet. that may happen since it has more steady options running 4 study etc....

[DeathwingZERO]

I am still an avid supporter of Unmask. It's not FoW that you are protecting against, it's anything they have that could possibly slow you down or stall you. The deck can support it, especially versions running Wraith. The main reason I keep it is because it gives very, very valuable insight on what your opponent has. The fact that it never misses is also a good thing, since there's cards you normally wouldn't think of that could randomly ruin games for you.

EDIT: Also, Unmask is there for usefulness game 1, so don't bother trying to mull into it. Let it be there if the hand can support it, otherwise continue your plan as normal. Very rarely will you NEED it to be there in the opening hand, but games that you do need it, you'll be glad to have it around.

[Mayk0l]

I agree, Unmask has been very good to me. In the games where you really need it, and actually get it turn 1, it's not such a big deal to pitch an Ichorid or Bridge or other key card if that buys you an actualy turn or two, or wins you the game. If you can't use it, ignore it and use the rest of your hand. I play the version without the Wraiths and even in that one, as Deathwingzero said before, you can support it pretty well. Usually you'll be pitching excess Putrid Imps, Therapies, or a Thug when you have a Troll or Stinky.

[Wereodile]

I am in the process of building this deck and a lot of these lists are pretty tight but I feel like the decks needs the 4x Careful Study.

I'm a big fan of Unmask in the Main, I have a hard time seeing any real cons to having them in the deck they have both aggresive and defensive applications in this deck.

[Twoshirty]

I completely disagree with everyone about unmask... It does not belong in the main. I have tested it and tested it and tested it some more and i despise it. Moreover I do not even think the deck needs it. Careful study is a much better choice. I fail to see why its even needed. Sure it grabs "random" things you lose too, but the way I play the deck, cabal therapy already does that. In fact mulitiple therapies should take care of anything (that doesnt hit the board) I just hate it it seems to slow me down too much. So sorry I cannot agree with you guys.

[DeathwingZERO]

I completely disagree with everyone about unmask... It does not belong in the main. I have tested it and tested it and tested it some more and i despise it. Moreover I do not even think the deck needs it. Careful study is a much better choice. I fail to see why its even needed. Sure it grabs "random" things you lose too, but the way I play the deck, cabal therapy already does that. In fact mulitiple therapies should take care of anything (that doesnt hit the board) I just hate it it seems to slow me down too much. So sorry I cannot agree with you guys.

For starters, without it you are 100% more reliant on your opponent not packing FoW. In addition, on the draw, you are also hoping that your opponent does not pack Duress or Thoughtseize. Both these instances will completely wreck an average to good opening hand, and critically slow you at least 3-4 turns without a savage topdeck.

I do not believe the deck needs 4 main, nor do I believe that you should aggressively mull to it in all games, but having Therapy do your dirty work is never a good main plan, just because of the fact that if will miss a majority of the time on a blind play. On top of it, a Therapy on your first turn relies on you not playing Imp or a draw spell, which is a terrible, terrible thing.

[MULocke]

For starters, without it you are 100% more reliant on your opponent not packing FoW. In addition, on the draw, you are also hoping that your opponent does not pack Duress or Thoughtseize. Both these instances will completely wreck an average to good opening hand, and critically slow you at least 3-4 turns without a savage topdeck.

I do not believe the deck needs 4 main, nor do I believe that you should aggressively mull to it in all games, but having Therapy do your dirty work is never a good main plan, just because of the fact that if will miss a majority of the time on a blind play. On top of it, a Therapy on your first turn relies on you not playing Imp or a draw spell, which is a terrible, terrible thing.

The problem here is that you name force and discard spells as your problem spells for unmask to take care of. With force, don't you just get there with ichorids anyway, while using dread return as a way to make bridge tokens? Also, force is a reactive spell, so you can indeed wait to therapy it before you DR. If you're worried about getting things like imp forced, consider that you would very likely have to pitch it to unmask anyway. Unmask does seem decent if you're worried about running into force with your first spell, but these decks are usually your good matchups that Ichorids or DDD is plenty.

As for duress and thoughtseize when you are on the draw, how exactly is unmask supposed to help? They still get to play their discard spell first...

Therapy does just fine here. It's free as well, and rather than forcing you to pitch useful cards, it lets you sac creatures, which is usually a good thing.

[undone]

The problem here is that you name force and discard spells as your problem spells for unmask to take care of. With force, don't you just get there with ichorids anyway, while using dread return as a way to make bridge tokens? Also, force is a reactive spell, so you can indeed wait to therapy it before you DR. If you're worried about getting things like imp forced, consider that you would very likely have to pitch it to unmask anyway. Unmask does seem decent if you're worried about running into force with your first spell, but these decks are usually your good matchups that Ichorids or DDD is plenty.

Actualy I was of this oppinion too, untill I actualy played vs red tempo thresh. If they get 1 goose to chump (Rfg bridge) or connect 1 time, due to the damage you do yourself they burn you out.

DDD only works vs decks like landstill. DDD is MUCH worse in legacy then it is in other formats, I dont resort to it unless I have a hand like

4blue cards
2 dredgers
1 irrelivant card

4 CStudy is really good hurts crypt from auto winning.

[Mayk0l]

Unmask is good against Landstill, maybe best against Landstill, partly because the DDD plan is actually too slow; they start throwing down Deeds, EE's, Extirpates and what not. I don't think the Landstill MU is as auto-winnish as everyone thinks it is.

[DeathwingZERO]

4c Landstill is FAR from autowin. Just off the top of my head, this is what the matchup has to offer:

Swords to Plowshares (Imp and Ichorid HATE this card)
Force
Counterspell
EE (recurring thanks to Ruins)
Factory (blocks your dudes forever via Crucible, and cuts off Bridge)
Deed
and a clock (thanks Wizards, gotta love that the SLOWEST DAMN DECK IN LEGACY now has a 3 TURN CLOCK AGAINST US) thanks to Goyfs.

This is the MAINDECK.

Post sideboard, they also get:

Extirpate
Jailer (if they want)
Leyline of the Void

All while still packing most of what's in the maindeck. So ya, bad fuckin matchup for sure.

And as for Unmask, it's far more useful than it's not. And rarely will you have to pitch anything important to it (I'll toss SW or a black dredger aside for it, as they are not necessities to get you going). My main point is that it'll help when you NEED it, just because it's another option to get information. 3 slots of difference does not kill this deck, at all. Being able to protect yourself against going off at the wrong time vs the wrong opponent is usually very handy.

[Twoshirty]

I regularly test against decks with force and I could care less about it. the only time it matters is when you are casting dread return, and you should axe that with about one hundred therapies before going off. I run three careful studies. In fact
i believe as I have said in previous posts, it is amazing to me how much hate some one needs to have to actually beat you. The only decks I really have serious trouble with are the cret belcher lists (wild cantor + Tinder Wall + fast win or something of the like, and of course tes.) Force of will is the least of my concerns. You talk about force slowing me down, but it isnt force that hurts me its running unmask main that slow me down to the point that freakin solidarity beats me...ya thats pretty sad (at least to me)
Now I know this deck is metagame dependant (well at least the sideboard) and really we are arguing preference, but like I said unmask just seems to hurt me, but thats just my opinion.
Oh, I just wanted to throw this out there...protean hulk or angel of despair (angel deals with a permanent, protean hulk makes you combo out in instances where you couldnt)

[DeathwingZERO]

Personally, I've never used the maindeck/sideboard strategy of putting in a DR target, mostly because any permanent I've wanted to destroy is either 1) nuking my graveyard of it's abilities or 2) just generally nuking my graveyard (Leyline, etc)

Nobody in my area plays things like Geddon Stax, hardly play Enchantress, and not a whole lot of Propagana effects going on either. I'm not really sure what else I'd be worried about in the main. Anything from the sideboard either shuts down the graveyard completely, or makes it go bye bye.

Is there anything in particular you are looking for that slot to do?

[Twoshirty]

Right on, Im my meta there is alot of solidarity/Belcher/Whatever stax lists, so I have been rocking angel of destruction main, but I was testing hulk and he is somethin special...lets say you have two bridges in yard a DR and some combination of narco/putrid imp in play to the effect of two, with hulk in the yard you can DR him, (leaving you w/ 2 tokens on board) sack him to therapy, then get fkz and 2 putrid imps whateva to equal the 21 damage you would need. ya its pretty sick, I just am not sure if its worth the effort or space. This is what I have finally settled on as "ideal" for me and my meta though

land
4x City of Brass
3x Cephallid Coliseum
4x Gemstone Mine

Artifact
4x Lions eye Diamond

Creature
4x Putrid Imp
3x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomeaba
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Ichorid
1x Cephallid Sage
1x fkz ftw
4x Golgari Grave Troll
1x Angel of Despair

Spells
3x Careful Study
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Breakthrough
4x Bridge from Below
2x Deep Anal
3x Dread return

SB
4x Leyline of the void
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ancient Grudge
3x Darkblast
4x chain of vapor
1x Sundering Titan
Like I said you might not like it, But I have been cleaning house with this list...so anywho just thought i would share w/ you guys

[Ciberon]

Wouldn't Underground Sea be better than Gemstone mine on your deck?

[Joe_C]

Wouldn't Underground Sea be better than Gemstone mine on your deck?

Not when you need to cast a ray of revelation, no:wink:

The rainbow lands are a needed to be able to ray when you need to, and to be able to flashback it.

[Twoshirty]

Word on the rainbow lands...and I am really likeing protean hulk he is the man....

[Brehn]

and I am really likeing protean hulk he is the man....

I can't think of any card that would be more win more.

[Twoshirty]

I know, I know it seems really bad but you really do actually win more often with the guy... give me a chance I'll do the math and prove it...

Ya just to reiterate, Protean Hulk is amazing.... He does whatever you want, hes cephallid sage #2, he is FKZ #2, and he also adds more creatures to the board to the #'s of 1 (Narcomeaba, Golgari Thug) or Two (Putrid Imp) He is the man...again I am Going to look into the numbers and get back to you guys.

[Elficidium]

I know, I know it seems really bad but you really do actually win more often with the guy... give me a chance I'll do the math and prove it...

So, he's so good that when you would normally win, you win even more? And all this for only a couple of slots MB!
Sign me up!

Anyway, clear example of the "danger of cool things".

[Twoshirty]

ehhh....its one slot dude, and your missing the point...ehhh the danger of big heads.....

[Twoshirty]

Sorry about that...no...All I am saying is he is another creature that can win you the game with if zealot or sage do not hit the yard...if you need more cards(like for more bridges per se) then you grad sage and dredge. If you need zealot grab him and one or two other dudes...I am telling you he is awsome....I wish I had MWS so I could show you....Really guys im telling you he is some good. In fact I got the idea from one of the lists in your decks to beat historical 2008 thread. it seemed tech so i tried it and it really is awsome. i like it beacause as I have tried to explain it gives you the option to win NOW when you would have to wait a turn or two. If you dont think thats good then well.... I guess then there is no pleasing you...Now granted if zealot or sage hit the yard you just DR that, but if not it just gives you another out to go nuts with... IT ADDS MORE CONSISTENCY TO THE COMBO... and your telling me thats a bad thing? You just have to be sure that you can get the hulk to the yard (via therapy or another DR).and it costs 1 slot...not "a couple" at least for me but all i cut was the angel i was running anyway.

[Ciberon]

I run a Reveillark and it works pretty good too.

[Twoshirty]

revilark huh that sounds interesting...i like hulk though cause the cards dont have to be in the yard, just in your deck... he is basically jesus in that he makes miracles happen. really i promise it is not "win more" its win now when you get unlucky dredges without fkz or sage. ill see what old revillark does though.

[DeathwingZERO]

I think I could afford the loss of a Careful Study to test him out in the maindeck. I really like the idea of being able to DR him (most likely from Ichorid recurring tokens), and get Sage or FKZ + little guys (Moeba's or PImps) and still be able to DR into more tokens, and suffer no loss of speed, relatively speaking. And since I don't need a meta slot for Angel, this seems like it might be worth looking into.

I wouldn't call him a "win more" card in the slightest. If anything, he's a "win NOW" target. Using DR on him isn't redundant with the combo, it's getting to your combo pieces (or multiple beatsticks if needed) when you need them asap.

[Joe_C]

I think I could afford the loss of a Careful Study to test him out in the maindeck. I really like the idea of being able to DR him (most likely from Ichorid recurring tokens), and get Sage or FKZ + little guys (Moeba's or PImps) and still be able to DR into more tokens, and suffer no loss of speed, relatively speaking. And since I don't need a meta slot for Angel, this seems like it might be worth looking into.

I wouldn't call him a "win more" card in the slightest. If anything, he's a "win NOW" target. Using DR on him isn't redundant with the combo, it's getting to your combo pieces (or multiple beatsticks if needed) when you need them asap.


Well he is a little more situational than this. He needs to be dread returned into play, and then sacked to therapy for him to take effect. So game 2 against anything that runs leyline he is useless. I would rather have the draw/discard outlet of study. My list with the 3 LED, 3 Breakthrough Zero Unmask has been doing really well in testing.

[DeathwingZERO]

He actually doesn't need to be sacrificed if it's not necessary. Getting him on the table and swinging is enough of a threat while you wait, if you can spare the DR without the ability to combo off.

While he's probably dead in game 2, I do like the ability to DR into this guy to either seal a damage race or provide fat that an opponent won't want to swing into from fear of it making you that much more volatile. I've yet to playtest with it, but I'm not sure that losing out on a CS is that great of a loss.

[Maagler]

// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum

// Creatures
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
2 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
3 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [TSB] Akroma, Angel of Wrath

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
3 [FNM] Deep Analysis
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
3 [OD] Careful Study

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation

Just split 3/4 out of 43 with this list. Hadley Tourney.

Akroma was wonderful all day for me. i found that I dread returned her more often than zealot.

[kicks_422]

Is only 10 dredgers enough? Have you ever wished for at least 1 more thug?

Another list without Unmask. Interesting. I'm trying dropping Unmasks too, and I really can't say if it hindered or helped the deck.

All the small cahnges made to the deck's MD really don't matter much, since the inherent strategy of it dredging the entire library is such a powerful one. It's really just the hate out of the board which sucks. I was thinking of having a transformational SB of some sort, but nothing's coming to mind yet. The deck's too tight.

[Maagler]

I never had a problem with enough dreagers but i did have some problems with not enough discard outlets.

[kicks_422]

No matter what build I try (with or without LED, with or without Unmask) I've always wished for another dicard outlet, preferably one which could be activated from the yard, and not Phantasmagorian. Hopefully Shards gives something good.

[DeathwingZERO]

I can't find myself hopeful for something like that. Wizards knows how powerful the graveyard is in all formats, hence Macabre and Doll. I think they are going to continue to downplay the graveyard for quite some time now that dredge has so entrenched itself into all formats.

I've found little problems with discard outlets, my major problems are still the postgames "gotta mill to something" in order to keep up speed. It's nearly impossible to make a transformational sideboard for this deck, because it's such a linear strategy. With only 11-12 lands and all of them waste targets, it's so hard to rely on them for trying to cast something. Especially with 2/3 pinging you and the other third being temporary.

I really wish we could get a transformational board going, but 15 cards just isn't enough.

[kicks_422]

Well, the black-aligned "shard" focuses on the graveyard, so here's to hoping. A fattie which could be put into play by RFG'ing cards from your hand would be nice, like a Tombstalker which Delves from the hand.

[Maagler]

I can't find myself hopeful for something like that. Wizards knows how powerful the graveyard is in all formats, hence Macabre and Doll. I think they are going to continue to downplay the graveyard for quite some time now that dredge has so entrenched itself into all formats.

I've found little problems with discard outlets, my major problems are still the postgames "gotta mill to something" in order to keep up speed. It's nearly impossible to make a transformational sideboard for this deck, because it's such a linear strategy. With only 11-12 lands and all of them waste targets, it's so hard to rely on them for trying to cast something. Especially with 2/3 pinging you and the other third being temporary.

I really wish we could get a transformational board going, but 15 cards just isn't enough.

Ive been tinkering with a couple different transformable boards on mws. Nothing has worked for me yet though. I think we should try to develop it more though because there would be nothing better than making their graveyard hate useless post board.

[DeathwingZERO]

Ive been tinkering with a couple different transformable boards on mws. Nothing has worked for me yet though. I think we should try to develop it more though because there would be nothing better than making their graveyard hate useless post board.

The best I've been able to do is toss in the 3 additional lands from the sideboard and actually cast things, while letting Ichorid keep recurring. If the opponent doesn't have Leyline (but has Crypt) then I just eventually bait it out to see how far I can go.

At one point I was considering the StifleNought approach, as it's 12 slots at maximum (4 Nought, 4 Stifle, 4 Trickbind) and would fit in nicely with the 3 Islands I have in the board. Only problem is it's extremely fragile, and rather than searching for usually one card to beat GY hate, you are searching for 2 just to set yourself up. However, with SW, Study, and a few Breakthrough with 15 lands, I don't think it'd be terribly difficult to get it online. Not to mention both Stifle and Trickbind are not really all that terrible on their own.

[Pulp_Fiction]

Honestly if you played 15x lands in the main deck you could build a transformational sideboard. But what would you want to use that would actually be effective? And most importantly would 15x lands be enough to reliably get to 2-3 mana and would it make a difference since all of your lands either deal damage to you or die off after 3 uses? StifleNought seems decent and I suppose you could side in 4x Stifle, 4x Nought, 2x Trickbind, and like 3x Mishra's Factories or something like that. But how effective would all of that be against say .... Goblins. Or some deck running just 4x Crypt in the SB? I have rarely ever had 3x lands in play at the same time playing this deck so I don't think Trickbind is a good plan. Maybe this would be something good to test:

4x Dreadnought
4x Stifle
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Pithing Needle

I don't think a transformational SB would be possible only running 12x lands in the main. But if you ran 15x then something like this might be pretty good. It is very interesting that is for sure.

[kyan]

I got confused during a recent tourney I played in.

My opponent played Humility while I had 6 zombie tokens in play. Naturally, they become 1/1's when his humility hit the board. The following turn, I dredge, got Narcomoebas and proceeded to Dread Return for a Flame-Kin Zealot.

Now here's where I got confused...

Does the come into play ability of FKZ add the haste and +1/+1 ability since it just came into play?

Our local judge said no, but he never gave me an explanation as to why.

Anyone can explain this to me in layman's terms?


Thanks

[Jaiminho]

I got confused during a recent tourney I played in.

My opponent played Humility while I had 6 zombie tokens in play. Naturally, they become 1/1's when his humility hit the board. The following turn, I dredge, got Narcomoebas and proceeded to Dread Return for a Flame-Kin Zealot.

Now here's where I got confused...

Does the come into play ability of FKZ add the haste and +1/+1 ability since it just came into play?

Our local judge said no, but he never gave me an explanation as to why.

Anyone can explain this to me in layman's terms?


Thanks

The zone-change trigger on Zealot is checked when it's already in play. Since Humility removes all abilities from all creatures, it will never trigger since it doesn't exist.

[DeathwingZERO]

It's also the same with Ichorid. It'll come into play, become a 1/1, and lose haste. But I can't recall if it also loses the "sacrifice at end of turn" clause.

[Joe_C]

It's also the same with Ichorid. It'll come into play, become a 1/1, and lose haste. But I can't recall if it also loses the "sacrifice at end of turn" clause.

It does lose the sacrifice "ability".

[kyan]

Yeah, Ichorid becomes a 1/1 with no ability as well. I was just confused as to whether FKZ's come into play effect triggers after Humility.

Thanks guys.

[MULocke]

Wouldn't Bitterblossom be a good man-plan approach? It is hard to remove but is still powerful, and it helps the normal plan of the deck by providing guys to sac for therapies and dread returns. Basically, it furthers the aggro-plan of the deck while helping the combo element, too.

[Happy Gilmore]

Honestly if you played 15x lands in the main deck you could build a transformational sideboard. But what would you want to use that would actually be effective? And most importantly would 15x lands be enough to reliably get to 2-3 mana and would it make a difference since all of your lands either deal damage to you or die off after 3 uses? StifleNought seems decent and I suppose you could side in 4x Stifle, 4x Nought, 2x Trickbind, and like 3x Mishra's Factories or something like that. But how effective would all of that be against say .... Goblins. Or some deck running just 4x Crypt in the SB? I have rarely ever had 3x lands in play at the same time playing this deck so I don't think Trickbind is a good plan. Maybe this would be something good to test:

4x Dreadnought
4x Stifle
3x Mishra's Factory
4x Pithing Needle

I don't think a transformational SB would be possible only running 12x lands in the main. But if you ran 15x then something like this might be pretty good. It is very interesting that is for sure.

I wouldn't play 15 lands, however, running lotus petal is an option which would give you alternate turn 1 win possibilties.

[DeathwingZERO]

@MULocke: I've considered that, actually. My biggest problem is that it's just not fast enough if the graveyard is locked down. Creating a 1/1 every turn is slower than practically everything in the format, even if it's free turn 3 onward. I found it just far too slow at providing me with time to get the answers in hand to whatever hate is on the table, and it's slots that could otherwise be used to set up the win. As far as maindeck, anything that's going to cost 2 mana better win on the spot, 12 lands = very inconsistent 2 mana early on.

@Happy: 15 lands is my post-board count IF I side them all in. Usually my Islands go in place of my Cephalid Coliseums if there's Needles that can hit them, or I just need to protect myself from Waste-lock games 2 and 3 while still getting that blue mana to stick to the table. It also serves to buffer my life total a little bit more, keeping me from pinging myself in slow games. I haven't really missed what they've replaced, but at the same time I've only got one significant tournament to base it on. Lotus Petal would be nice for a faster win, but suffers the same drawbacks as LED: not a permanent source of mana, and countered by Chalice or spells.

With a buddy of mine running a black Stax deck packing maindeck Nether Voids and Crucible + Wasteland, I'm even more confident in my choice to keep the Islands.

[undone]

@ the man plan. In this format the man plan is just bad, there are 12/12s and 5/6s for 2. Bitterblossom is too slow. Your best bet vs GY hate is to board in instant speed answers if you want more land (Stifles for crypts and EEs) The best bet aside from that from my experiance is to board in 4 thoughtseize if you are on the play (won game 1 went to game 3) and you want to be disruptive. Thoughtseizes destroy all cards not named leyline of the void. Also hates on Epates. (maby duress but Tseize hits your own dudes)

[Twoshirty]

Hey guys, just wanted to chime in... If you ask me, I think just a standard side board w/ 4 chain of vapor , 4 leyline or needle, then some combination of rays and grudges is fine, w/ the last slots meta dependant. Really it just seems that people have to bring in so much to stop you... I really dont have a problem...Now barring that before game starts leyline you should be able to handle what ever else....I dont know... I guess maybe if you tell me what your worst mathces are we can compare notes and maybe just together as a group come up with the best general sideboard. also tell me what matches your having trouble with and we can all share w/ each other how we deal w/ them... I dont think the man plan route is the way to go...seeing as how we are already kind of man plannish... It just seems that the man plan would only work against someone who wasnt expecting creatures in the first place...

[Pulp_Fiction]

Yeah, the man plan is probably to slow but it is certainly something worth exploring. I run a very standard SB with Dredge:

4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Chalice of the Void
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Ray of Revelation

Maybe I should cut the 2x Grudge and 1x Ray and play 3x Thoughtseize in their spot. Its a card I have been wanting to test out but I really hate to SB in more than 5x cards because of the way it affects the deck. But I haven't been playing this deck at all lately because it gets really annoying EVERY ROUND seeing fucking Tormod's Crypt and Extirpate + other hate every other round. You certainly have to be in the mood to play against all the hate to run this deck thats for sure cause you are going to see it every round!

[DeathwingZERO]

Pulp basically hit the same nail I have when playing this deck. A few decks in the last tournament I went to were prepared for the deck. I ran into a couple of those, and games 2 and 3 just weren't fun. The deck can get around one or two pieces of hate, if mulled enough and lucky. But a combination of things like Epate, Crypt, Needle, Chalice, Jailer etc....that's a whole other story.

I've got less than a week left to come up with a deck I want to play for the Batcave tournament coming up. With the last tournament having 4 of these decks show up, and all 4 hitting top 8, I know for certain there's going to be far more hate showing up this time. I also know for certain at least one of those Ichorid players isn't showing.

[Twoshirty]

See maybe the problem I am having is that I am the only dude playing this deck in my meta... I mean people do have some awnsers for me, but generally I am not up against the hate you guys are talking about, the worst I face is like leyline in a few decks and crypt in others.... Not the kind of crazy hate you guys are talking about....It still makes me smile though knowing that people generally have to bring in multiple forms of hate to beat the deck because I have no problem dealing with what I see right now... Again its probabally just my meta thats making it easy on me...

[DeathwingZERO]

If you have to face Leyline OR Crypt, it's basically putting bounce/destruction or Needles in your sideboard. It's the annoyance of facing things like Leyline/Jailer or Extirpate/Jailer/Crypt or my personal favorite of Extirpate/Jailer/Crypt/Leyline (15 cards in from the board, with maindeck Extirpates? DUMB).

One piece of hate might as well be an auto win in itself. Two pieces is almost doable, if you can mull into a lucksack hand. 3 or more pieces, find a new deck to play. Regard this as something you see from multiple decks, not just one or two. If you are lucky and only one or two play this kind of hate (3+ post board), then keep on truckin. You are more than likely not going to be paired against them repeatedly.

[Giles]

I've got less than a week left to come up with a deck I want to play for the Batcave tournament coming up. With the last tournament having 4 of these decks show up, and all 4 hitting top 8, I know for certain there's going to be far more hate showing up this time. I also know for certain at least one of those Ichorid players isn't showing.

Yeah that was weird all 4 of us hitting the top 8. I know for a fact that Ichroid deck and list will be in my backpack.


If you have to face Leyline OR Crypt, it's basically putting bounce/destruction or Needles in your sideboard. It's the annoyance of facing things like Leyline/Jailer or Extirpate/Jailer/Crypt or my personal favorite of Extirpate/Jailer/Crypt/Leyline (15 cards in from the board, with maindeck Extirpates? DUMB).

One piece of hate might as well be an auto win in itself. Two pieces is almost doable, if you can mull into a lucksack hand. 3 or more pieces, find a new deck to play. Regard this as something you see from multiple decks, not just one or two. If you are lucky and only one or two play this kind of hate (3+ post board), then keep on truckin. You are more than likely not going to be paired against them repeatedly.

In the last batcave, against burn.... TURN 3 ENSNARING BRIDGE. That sucks.
But the nice thing about sideboarding wars is that all information is known. (At Least for me) I can predict was the hate is going to be... and what they are taking out for it.

[Artanis]

Hi guys. i am new to this deck and its been doing extremely well in testing for me so far. heres my list and base sideboard. my meta is mainly aggro with some threshold and counterslivers. let me know what you guys think!

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Bridge From Below
1 Flame Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
1 Umbra Stalker: trust me on this one... he gets huge fast
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal therapy
2 Deep Analysis
3 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
2 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Lotus Petal
4 City Of Brass
4 Lions Eye Diamond

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the void: for the mirror
3 Pithing Needle: stop crypt, fanatic...
3 Chain Of Vapor: meddling mage, leyline, jailer, etc...
3 Ray Of Revelation: must have leyline destruction...
2 Ancient Grudge: for trinisphere, chalice...

[undone]

No offence but your list needs some reworking.

1) Ubral stalker doesnt win vs goblins, the only matchup you really NEED a DR a fattie plan. Play akroma

2) 4 Ceph colluseam. Period, no exceptions

3) 4 chain of vapor in the board, its the only thing every one agress on.

4) Lotus pedal is bad in a metagame with blue and stompy

"3sphear, go" then your DDD plan is too slow, but with 12 lands you get to ceph colluseam off for the win.

3 therapy is also fine

[Jaynel]

2) 4 Ceph colluseam. Period, no exceptions

3 therapy is also fine

I feel like 3 Coliseum and 4 Therapy are optimal. You REALLY want access to black for Putrid Imp on turn 1. Usually manabases like

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum

are accepted as the norm. But yeah, Lotus Petals aren't so hot. They just make the deck more inconsistent.

[Artanis]

hm... thanks. i had some live plays with it today and the petals werent workin so good.

[Twoshirty]

So Nuthin new then guys? its been a min. Hmm... Well I did make a few tweaks to my list: I took out a thug (Bringing the dredger count to 10) I put the 4th coliseum back in, cut the hulk and now play four careful study and three deep anal. Thats all I got.

[kicks_422]

10 dredgers are a bit too low, I think. 11 is the minimum.

I'll be playing Ichorid tomorrow at the Legacy side event of GP Manila. I'll write a tourney report right after that.

[kensook]

What do you guys think of Parcher's tech of Eternal Witness/Firestorm? Reading his tournament report from GenCon, I feel like Eternal Witness should replace Cephalid Sage in most lists. It also helps with getting dredged sideboarded cards in your hand.

[Mental]

What do you guys think of Parcher's tech of Eternal Witness/Firestorm? Reading his tournament report from GenCon, I feel like Eternal Witness should replace Cephalid Sage in most lists. It also helps with getting dredged sideboarded cards in your hand.

It seems really strong except when facing FoW, right? Like, it makes Counterspells hurt again. Then again, you aren't playing DR much against Thresh anyhow, so that may be alright.

[abbeyroad]

Its kind of strange, but has anyone thought of using FoW in the sb for things like crypt, wheel of sun and moon, engineered plague, etc. The deck has 12+ (not including FoW of course) blue cards plus if u sb chain of vapor as well its 16. Even against decks like thresh and landstill that run counters it might work because I noticed that thresh and landstill usually boards out counters for games 2 and 3.
So What do you guys think?

[dude 666]

I'm trying to put this deck together, and I was thinking about the sideboard. What is the point of chalice in the sideboard? What is a pretty standard sideboard, I know 4 chain 4 needles, X grudge, and X ray are prominent, but what other choices do you have?

Thanks for your help.