[Deck] Ichorid

[kicks_422]

Just dredge like crazy Game 1. It's almost always an auto-win, unless you keep a really bad hand.

The real game starts in G2, where you have to board in anti-hate. Generally, I side in 4 Chain of Vapor and 4 Pithing Needles for the DR combo and 1-ofs (usually, a Thug, Ichorid, LED, and DA).

[Mayk0l]

Just dredge like crazy Game 1. It's almost always an auto-win, unless you keep a really bad hand.


Except when they drop an Island, that usually gets me Therapying them first.
"Forest, Go" has always been "GG" for me though :)

[GoldenCid]

Except when they drop an Island, that usually gets me Therapying them first.
"Forest, Go" has always been "GG" for me though :)

That's right, except when: "Forest, go!"
"Land, putrid, LED, go!"
"Forest, sakura, -WTFFF???-, go!"
:confused:

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I'm not sure what's better, Eternal Witness or Cephalid Sage. Sage allows me to dig into what I need to take out my foe, but Witness is simply versatile. For reference, this is the list I'm currently going for. Witness + Firestorm seems like it could break me out of several otherwise dooming situations, especially against Dragon Stompy and possibly Survival. I've found LED to be unnecessarily explosive, but cutting both Diamond and Sage may be too much.

// Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

// Creatures
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Eternal Witness
3 Street Wraith

// Spells
4 Careful Study
1 Firestorm (Would go out with Witness)
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

[Zinch]

I don't think firestorm is a good answer against dragon stompy because they will play chalice for one in most games. Otherwise, is a good card against golbins (not an esay matchup) and maybe survival

[Sanguine Voyeur]

That's true. How often have others found Dragon Stompy keeping in Chalice post-board?

[Mayk0l]

I've found LED to be unnecessarily explosive

With Ad Nauseam combo running rampant, we need that 'unnecessary explosiveness'

[sunshine]

It's worth noting that Firestorm is still a valid discard outlet after DS drops chalice at one. Also, Firestorm can kill Magus, RPD, and non-hellbent Raiders with no other creatures on the board. I'm not saying Firestorm is a definite to bring in against DS - but it deserves some consideration. Honestly, I find myself liking Firestorm more and more everytime I play it.

[Joe_C]

I'm not sure what's better, Eternal Witness or Cephalid Sage. Sage allows me to dig into what I need to take out my foe, but Witness is simply versatile. For reference, this is the list I'm currently going for. Witness + Firestorm seems like it could break me out of several otherwise dooming situations, especially against Dragon Stompy and possibly Survival. I've found LED to be unnecessarily explosive, but cutting both Diamond and Sage may be too much.

// Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass

// Creatures
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Eternal Witness
3 Street Wraith

// Spells
4 Careful Study
1 Firestorm (Would go out with Witness)
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
2 Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 2 Firestorm
SB: 3 Wispmare
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void

At first I was not an advocate of Unmask, but with combo on the rise and control decks being some of the best decks in the format I would at least leave yourself the option to run them in the board if not maindecked. I have been running 3 maindecked and I have grown to love them

[GoldenCid]

@Sanguine Voyeur: Although EW >> CS two copies of her is a bit high. Some post above there is a discussion about the utility of both cards. I conlcuded that CS is better than EW in a unique rare situation playing manaless. Chck it out.

On the other side, i'm not pretty sure that 1x mainddeck firestorm could be a real advantage. It's great cards with a non clear acceptation among players...
Nowadays i'm running this SB:

4 CoV
4 P. needle
3 Unmask
1 Ancient grudge
3 Wax//Wane

[BreathWeapon]

With Ad Nauseam combo running rampant, we need that 'unnecessary explosiveness'

You can't race Storm combo regardless, I'd just accept Storm combo as a lost match up and concentrate on beating the Control and Aggro-Control decks, which the Tireless Tribe versions do really, really well.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

As a foreword, I am to poor for LEDs, so no matter how much you convince me, I cannot run them.
At first I was not an advocate of Unmask, but with combo on the rise and control decks being some of the best decks in the format I would at least leave yourself the option to run them in the board if not maindecked. I have been running 3 maindecked and I have grown to love themUnmask seems decent. I could easily drop Street Wraith for it.
With Ad Nauseam combo running rampant, we need that 'unnecessary explosiveness'Would even Sage and LED be enough to out race them? Besides, I'm not too sure that storm will be big in my meta. Lots of Dreadstill though.
@Sanguine Voyeur: Although EW >> CS two copies of her is a bit high. Some post above there is a discussion about the utility of both cards. I conlcuded that CS is better than EW in a unique rare situation playing manaless. Chck it out.What about a 1/1 split? Or would those slots be better dedicate to something else?

[sunshine]

Aside from opening with LED, Breakthrough, dredger, and land it is nearly impossible to race storm combo. Side in all your Unmask and Chalice (if on the play) if you have them and hope for the best (obviously Needle can help in some matches as well) - Knowing what to name with Therapy is huge. IMO it's really not worth considering storm combo when deciding on sideboard choices for Ichorid given the current meta. Storm is really not enough of a presence yet to completely warp the board, which is what it would take to turn that MU around.

[GoldenCid]

What about a 1/1 split? Or would those slots be better dedicate to something else?

I would run something else in favor of 1 copy of EW. At first i run the deck with 2x sages and it was right for me. Some times after playing the deck i realised that 1 sage was tightly enough. Then i tried EW and i was convinced that she's the best option. 11 dredgers and EW is just what you need to drop all cards in yard.

[Captain Hammer]

So from what I can tell, there is basically two versions of the deck.

A slower more controllish version that plays 15-16 lands, and 8 permanent discard effects.

And a speedy more explosive but less resilient one that only runs 4 permanent discard effects (Putrid Imp) but a lot more instant based draw/discard effects.

Is one path definately superior to the other, or perhaps should this be divided into two different threads.

[Recon]

Again a quick strategy question.
I know it's hard to awnser but every little thing can be usefull for me here :wink:

- What cards to name with C.Therapy?
(ofc depending on op.deck but in general, with topdecks)

- What cards to name with P.Needle?
(ofc depending on op.deck but in general, with topdecks)

- Use of ChaliceoV.
I asume mostly for :0: ?


Thx!

[sunshine]

@Recon:
-In general you want to use your therapies to make sure Dread Return resolves (i.e. getting rid of counter magic). They are also useful for proactively dealing with hate cards.

-Needle will be naming Tormod's Crypt in the vast majority of cases.

-Chalice is usually set for zero to stop Crypt from being played. It is also useful against combo, especially when on the play.

I'd say those are the most common uses for the cards in question, obviously that list is not exhaustive.

[GoldenCid]

- What cards to name with C.Therapy?

Sunshine's answers were right...here are some more names.
First of all you have to previously know the opponent deck, because your opponent is a friend or a fellow, to not waste the therapy or in match 1 you should await for some moves of your opponent to get a good therapy.
Concerning the second option as the most probable i divide the option in 2 parts:

1- Cards that crap the combo: counters mostly: Force of will or daze are awful. If you see an island in the other side of the table try to make sure that they are out! Meddling mage is other bad guy!

2- "Maindeck hate": There is lots of examples...the commonest:

Engineered explosives: Landstill, MUC and fellows...
Mogg fanatic: Burn, sligh, Tarmoburn, boroslike decks...
Tormod's crypt: Grinding servant and trinket decks...
Pernicious deed: Rock, doran...
Extirpate: Pox, discard decks in general, some versions of rock...
Powder keg: MUC, landstill....
Ghostly prision / propaganda / moat / Solitary confinement: MUC, landstill, enchantress...


- What cards to name with P.Needle?
In the most of cases tormod's crypt is the option, but powder keg, pernicious deed, and engineered explosives are other candidates.


- Use of ChaliceoV.
I asume mostly for :0: ?

Yes 0 is tha common cast cost for chalice of the void to get rid from T. crytp but it also helps, for 0, against engineered explosives.

I wish i was helpful...

PD: I would like to put the cardlinks but i don't know how to do it...XD

[Recon]

Thx Guys!

I've played last friday, small tournament, and did okish.
Tomorrow is the big tournament so after the weekend i'll let you know how it went.

Im still playing around with some cards...
10/11 lands - 3/4 G.Thugs
Sideboard, Im thinking about adding 2 R.of.Rev. & 2 A.Grudges over 4.W,Mares. Since I 'feel' the flashback will help me alot...


Im allmost sure about the M.Masques over C.Study. M.Masques helped me out alot! Allthough looking at some other builds today made me think. Luckally im here with some friends so i'll test some more tonight. Allthough I probally will stick with the first build I made :wink:


Again, thx :smile:

[GoldenCid]

Thx Guys!

I've played last friday, small tournament, and did okish.
Tomorrow is the big tournament so after the weekend i'll let you know how it went.

I you wish you could tell us about your match ups!!


Im still playing around with some cards...
10/11 lands - 3/4 G.Thugs
Sideboard, Im thinking about adding 2 R.of.Rev. & 2 A.Grudges over 4.W,Mares. Since I 'feel' the flashback will help me alot...

11 lands i think is better...i assume that you are running the LED version.

Wispmare vs grudge / revelation is an almost a philosophical discussion...your experience will tell you the right SB composition. But remember that mare gets rid from enchantment but no from artifacts, is reanimable and token stuff.



Im allmost sure about the M.Masques over C.Study. M.Masques helped me out alot! Allthough looking at some other builds today made me think. Luckally im here with some friends so i'll test some more tonight. Allthough I probally will stick with the first build I made :wink:


I think that M.Masques = Unmask right?? Cutting careful study for unmask is an interesting option to get some knowledge about the opponent's deck and by the way get rid from some awful cards or make a great use of your therapy. As an advise if you run unmask run 4 thug too instead 3. For the fast combo ichorid unmask could be a good choice for solving the maindeck hate and planning your game in exchange of speed.

[bigbear102]

You can't race Storm combo regardless, I'd just accept Storm combo as a lost match up and concentrate on beating the Control and Aggro-Control decks, which the Tireless Tribe versions do really, really well.

I think this statement is a bit of a stretch. Sure, if they win turn 1, then there is no chance, but that is true of any non-blue deck. Many builds have 4-8 discard slots between main and side, some 8 main. There is a good chance that CotV comes in out of the board. Without LED and Chrome Mox storm is hampered significantly. Between discard, CotV, and the possibility of turn 2-3 kills, I wouldn't count Ichorid out in the matchup.

[sunshine]

It is possible to race storm, though unlikely, I just don't think it's worth dedicating sideboard slots to that MU. This brings up a good question: is anyone playing Chalice in their board anymore (I think I ran two SB ones in the last large tournament I played Ichorid in)? Yes, chalice can stop Crypt as well as free mana but you only really want to side it in on the play. If Relic were more popular I would not consider Chalice given that storm is not really that heavily played.

[BreathWeapon]

I think this statement is a bit of a stretch. Sure, if they win turn 1, then there is no chance, but that is true of any non-blue deck. Many builds have 4-8 discard slots between main and side, some 8 main. There is a good chance that CotV comes in out of the board. Without LED and Chrome Mox storm is hampered significantly. Between discard, CotV, and the possibility of turn 2-3 kills, I wouldn't count Ichorid out in the matchup.

Sure, it's possible, but we're discussing whether or not you should be playing a LED based deck to race Storm Combo or you should be playing a non-LED based deck to shore up the amount of damage Tormod's Crypt can/will do. I don't see the point of structuring your deck around racing Storm combo if it's not as good against aggro-control or control games 2/3.

It really comes down to utility, and preparing for Storm combo just isn't worth the hassle.

[GoldenCid]

This brings up a good question: is anyone playing Chalice in their board anymore (I think I ran two SB ones in the last large tournament I played Ichorid in)? If Relic were more popular I would not consider Chalice given that storm is not really that heavily played.

I considered chalice once when i hadn't pithing needle. If it's true that storm combo is a lost mutch up and if relic becomes used i think that pithing needle is double useful in this point than a 0 chalice.
Against storm combo i'd consider unmask when sideboarding to get rid from hate and main cards of the combo. And in this MU, i'd play the combo version of ichorid, because i think that this MU is a matter of speed.

[Dark_Cynic87]

The obvious thing to do if your meta has a decent amount of AdN in it is to simply switch to the control build. 15x lands plus 4x Chalice in the board is good. You can run more discard if you want, as well.

That's what I would do if I saw a lot of Ad Nauseam.

[Ozymandias]

If you think that LED only lets you race Storm, you're mistaken.

It lets you race a ton of other things as well. A Ghostly Prison or 3sphere from Stax. A Trinket->Crypt from Faerie Stompy. A CotV or a Moon effect from Dragon Stompy. A Propaganda from MUC. Hell, even a "Bolt You" from Burn. The list goes on.

Without LED, the deck is more disadvantaged than you think.

[GoldenCid]

I think that we are all agree that our best chance against storm is the LED derived speed.
I keep my oppinion that a 2 combo match round is pur best choice against storm combo.

[Mayk0l]

If you think that LED only lets you race Storm, you're mistaken. It lets you race a ton of other things as well. A Ghostly Prison or 3sphere from Stax. A Trinket->Crypt from Faerie Stompy.


Actually, LED is horrible against Crypt. The only things good against Crypt are Needle and Putrid Imp

[kicks_422]

LED is horrible against all forms of grave hate. LED versions are more explosive, but LED-less verssions are able to dig for SB cards easier.

[GoldenCid]

LED is horrible against all forms of grave hate. LED versions are more explosive, but LED-less verssions are able to dig for SB cards easier.

With the right sideboarding, this include cutting LED in match 2, sideboarding is not a big matter, but i admit that slow verssion has its advantages in this point...

[Dark_Cynic87]

With the right sideboarding, this include cutting LED in match 2, sideboarding is not a big matter, but i admit that slow verssion has its advantages in this point...

Which was my point when I said to go with the 15-land build, but then you said this...


I think that we are all agree that our best chance against storm is the LED derived speed.
I keep my oppinion that a 2 combo match round is pur best choice against storm combo.

Chalice @ 1 can really hurt them, and chalice @ 0 can be a deadly thing for them also as a lot of times they only get enough mana to cast AdN, and then rely on Moxen and petals for their go-off mana. They often can drop a land which helps, but not being able to play their bounce (if it's repeal/Chain of Vapor Chalice @ 1 screws them, and if it's Rushing River/Wipe Away, they can't get the mana for it).

It's a tough match, but you can goldfish as fast as them (even without LEDs, you lose what, half a turn?), just not as consistantly as them. Hope for luck?

Pce,

--DC

[GoldenCid]

Your quotes about me are time inversed. In your "first" i was reffering to general sideboarding and in your "second" to the storm matchup. However, i want to add that unmask would be halpful in that situation...

[Mayk0l]

I played Ichorid at the Dutch legacy championships (141 people) and came in at a shared 9th spot: I lost the last round (6-1; 6-2) to Meathooks. Too bad, because it's a solid matchup. Mulligans to 5-4 for the lose :(
Then again, I really didn't deserve to be top8 in the first place.

Anyway, I played the 'standard' list (dare I say 'standard' with all these 15-lands-no-LED-decks running rampant?):

4x Ichorid
4x Bridge from Below
4x Narcomoeba

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
2x Deep Analysis
4x Breakthrough
4x Putrid Imp

4x Cabal Therapy
3x Unmask

4x Golgari-Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
3x Golgari Thug

2x Dread Return
1x Eternal Witness
1x Flame-Kin Zealot

4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard/
4x Pithing Needle
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Firestorm
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Unmask



Cabal Therapy was, by far, the most important and powerful card all day.

Second and third were Eternal Witness and Unmask. I feel the list as it is right now is very solid. Because of the meta slowly shifting towards comboish decks that don't rely on the graveyard anymore (read: Ad Nauseam) and Aggro-Controllish decks that feed on the combo (TA, Dreadstill), I saw no Leylines; and the Chains were useless all day (even in the games I sided them in).
Firestorm was solid, nailing me two games against Zoo decks.. Gaddock Teeg never saw it coming, poor guy.
Almost all games I lost were Mulls into Oblivion, with truly unkeepable hands (No dredgers + no draw, stuff like that).

To be perfectly honest, and to give credit where it's due, I have to admit that, but we have to keep in mind that I didn't run into TES or other AN decks, LED was underwhelming. It was completely useless post board against decks with Crypt/Relic when I couldn't get a Pithing Needle (or even worse; when they Krosan Gripped it). It has been great to me in the past, but it's forced me to mulligan too often for my taste. However, this is the first time LED wasn't 'the bomb'; and it's also the first time I didn't run into combo. Who's to say what's wise to learn from this observation?


Have people considered other sideboard cards than the ones we've always played? I feel like I could switch some things around and make room, but up to now I've not seen any cards worth considering. If we keep the combo MU out of consideration, what other MU's could this deck use SB cards?


EDIT: With 'other SB considerations' I mean cards that aren't Dread Return targets.

[kicks_422]

The 1cc evoke critters (Ingot Chewer and Wispmare) seem particularly strong against artifact/enchantment hate, especially so when those aren't grave hate since they give you Bridge tokens as well. You might want to give those a look.

[GoldenCid]

@Mayk0l: Congratulations!! It seems that careful study cut for unmask is useful right?? Did you miss the study or you never played with them?

[Hoojo]

If Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are becoming the mainstays of graveyard hate, would something like Null Rod be worthy? You've stated that Lion's Eye Diamond isn't very useful post-board; siding them out for Null Rods would leave you in the clear. The only drawback I can see is the 2 mana they cost.

What cards are primarily targeted by Chain of Vapor? Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer?

[Mayk0l]

@Mayk0l: Congratulations!! It seems that careful study cut for unmask is useful right?? Did you miss the study or you never played with them?

I used to play them in the distant past. They're decent in that they help dig for answers, so they're at their best in games two and three. But I've never felt the need to play them after I discovered the sheer bruteness of Unmask. Where Careful Study helps you dig for answers, Unmask takes the threat right out of their hand, can also function as a discard outlet, takes their permission spells, costs no mana and gives you a clear idea on how to play your hand by seeing theirs. Careful Study is better in smoothing out your draws and hand, and makes the deck more consistent, but Unmask provides the protection that we really need.


If Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus are becoming the mainstays of graveyard hate, would something like Null Rod be worthy? You've stated that Lion's Eye Diamond isn't very useful post-board; siding them out for Null Rods would leave you in the clear. The only drawback I can see is the 2 mana they cost.

I considered Null Rod for some time but the fact that it costs two makes it highly unreliable in a 12-land build. I can almost never play it when I want or need to.
Pithing Needle has the additional advantages of being able to come down turn one so you can start the dredges earlier, and it hits non-artifacts as well. While this is usually irrelevant, sometimes you Unmask/Therapy the opponent and realise Pithing Needle on Mogg Fanatic for example is more important than naming Crypt when his hand doesn't have one.



What cards are primarily targeted by Chain of Vapor? Leyline of the Void and Yixlid Jailer?

Really Leyline is the only true indication to side in Chain of Vapor. It's the only card you really have to get rid of in order to win (although I've won games through Leyline by hardcasting creatures). Yixlid Jailer isn't that impressive, I've at least never lost to it. Not only does Jailer give you the time to therapy it away, it also dies to Firestorm. I'd rather burn it than bounce it. I usually side in Chain of Vapor against any deck with black that might have Leyline, meaning I'll sometimes side it in for nothing when their hate turns out to be Crypt or Relic. I'll use Chain to force them to pop it in those cases.

[Hoojo]

I considered Null Rod for some time but the fact that it costs two makes it highly unreliable in a 12-land build. I can almost never play it when I want or need to.
Pithing Needle has the additional advantages of being able to come down turn one so you can start the dredges earlier, and it hits non-artifacts as well. While this is usually irrelevant, sometimes you Unmask/Therapy the opponent and realise Pithing Needle on Mogg Fanatic for example is more important than naming Crypt when his hand doesn't have one.

I was thinking Null Rod in addition to Pithing Needle, though the casting cost is still an issue. Nothing beats Chain of Vapor for early bounce it seems; with Leyline of the Void, it just may be a necessary evil.

[sunshine]

At present two mana is simply one too many. If you really want to give Null Rod a try I would suggest trying out Dakmor Slavage (or at least siding it in along with the rod).

[Mayk0l]

At present two mana is simply one too many. If you really want to give Null Rod a try I would suggest trying out Dakmor Slavage (or at least siding it in along with the rod).

Dakmor Salvage sucking horribly aside, dredging it into your hand won't work if you need it to get rid of Tormod's Crypt, they'll remove in response. This will almost always be the case since they'll side in four Crypts, but you'll never side in four Salvages, meaning you'll be digging for it to begin with. Sounds like a bad idea.

[GoldenCid]

Really Leyline is the only true indication to side in Chain of Vapor. It's the only card you really have to get rid of in order to win (although I've won games through Leyline by hardcasting creatures). Yixlid Jailer isn't that impressive, I've at least never lost to it. Not only does Jailer give you the time to therapy it away, it also dies to Firestorm. I'd rather burn it than bounce it. I usually side in Chain of Vapor against any deck with black that might have Leyline, meaning I'll sometimes side it in for nothing when their hate turns out to be Crypt or Relic. I'll use Chain to force them to pop it in those cases.

I think that this deck, in a general matter has an 8 cards forced sideboarding:
+4 Chain of vapor
+4 Pithing needle

Although relic / crypt are the common needling cards, chain of vapor helps you to keep you card loaded until the eot before you get your combo in which you force him / her to crack them by bouncing.
More over, CoV is useful to deal with others threads than hate in order to turn the game even more in your favour.

Additionally...i see that you test firestorm...in which match up doyou side it and in place of what? What cards do you side together it??

[sunshine]

Dakmor Salvage sucking horribly aside, dredging it into your hand won't work if you need it to get rid of Tormod's Crypt, they'll remove in response. This will almost always be the case since they'll side in four Crypts, but you'll never side in four Salvages, meaning you'll be digging for it to begin with. Sounds like a bad idea.

Have you ever honestly tested with Dakmor Salvage? Neither have I, but I've seen it run to great effect by some very talented pilots and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as "sucking horribly." To be fair it might be and probably is sub-par but I really don't think it's that bad - especially if hitting the two mana mark becomes something you want to do every game two and three. If my opponent is going to blow his crypt every time I go to dredge a Salvage then maybe I wouldn't mind siding in four of them. I really don't think most players would waste a Crypt just because you're going to dredge a Salvage, if so then it already did its job: forcing a Crypt activation. Also, the fact that it dreges for just two is not so bad when you consider that the reason you're dredging in the first place is to play around Crypt.

[evilchen]

hey mayk0l nice to see a witness in your deck did it help much? can you tell me more about her :P?

[Mayk0l]

Have you ever honestly tested [.....] is to play around Crypt.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't thoroughly tested it. I added it to the decklist and played around with it for some time, but I thoroughly disliked it and discarded it as a serious option for Ichorid. It's just.. too slow.. I'd rather just play a land, tap it, play Pithing Needle and nail Crypt, than drop a land, start dredging, wait until I hit the land, dredge it, put it into play tapped, wait some more, then use it to cast Null Rod and (have) be(en) open to Daze, Wasteland, and other such effects. Your plan becomes pretty transparant, and gives your opponents time to find answers.
You mention siding in four of them (along with Null Rods), what would your sideboard look like?
I guess that in the hands of some talented pilots it could be a viable option, but I myself, so it seems, have no talent for playing that thing.


hey mayk0l nice to see a witness in your deck did it help much? can you tell me more about her :P?

Witness was solid all day, I won't go back to Cephalid Sage ever again. I actually made a play-error during the tournament because I overlooked what Witness could have done for me in that situation (but it didn't matter because I won anyway).
I was very content with it. Actually, during one match, I was going nuts with Witness (DRing it twice in one turn) and someone standing behind me observing the match said something like "Wow Witness is awesome" and he was right, Witness is awesome. It retrieves Unmask (won me one game), it brings back LED/Breakthrough (won me one game), it brings back Firestorm (won me one game), and so on! It has so many options. Parcher, who introduced Witness as an option for Ichorid, summed up perfectly what it does:



Retrieve Breakthrough to play with either a land or LED already in play.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with a land in play and vice-versa.
Retrieve Coliseum to play with an LED in play.
Retrieve LED to pay for DA.
Retrieve LED to pay for Ghostly Prison.
Retrieve LED to pay for a Dread Return through a 3Sphere I knew would be played the following turn when I couldn't win that turn.
Retrieve PImp to fly in for the win.
Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available.
Retrieve Chain, Firestorm, and Needle to either win, or seal a win in following turns.
Return Dread Return, GGT, and Stinkweed with an LED in play to be hardcast when the extra 2/1 body, or extra tokens from his sacrifice made the difference in the win.
Return Dread Return to be hardcast in a 40 minute game when I had four lands in play.
And of course, swung for the win.

"Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available" this one sort of relies on your opponent not seeing through your plays (not countering DR because you're 'only' getting an EW). But I pulled it off last tournament as well.


I'll add to this list:
Return a land to flashback Ray of Revelation

[evilchen]

yeah thanks , i know that list but i was happy to see someone testing it.. and i thought you might give feedback for your games with(as you did :) )

[kensook]

"Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available"

Sorry, I might not be thinking correctly or something but I don't get this one. Can someone explain it to me?

[Mayk0l]

"Retrieve Unmask to force through a Dread Returns with no mana available"

Sorry, I might not be thinking correctly or something but I don't get this one. Can someone explain it to me?


Parcher mentioned this in an earlier post and I actually pulled it off again last tournament. Say you dredge a couple of times and your hand has Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Thug.
You have three creatures and want to kill but fear a possible counterspell in your opponent's hand. Now, Dread Return targetting FKZ will definitely draw it out, so instead you Dread Return targetting Eternal Witness. This is the part where this trick sort of flaws out; it depends on your opponent not realising your plan. If your opponent isn't all that great he'll say (and I quote my opponent from that game) "Ohh.. it's just Witness, no problem". Then you take Unmask and cast it taking the Counterspell. Then you play Dread Return number two to get FKZ.

Basically you're Dread Returing through a Counterspell without mana, for the win

[Dark_Cynic87]

Parcher mentioned this in an earlier post and I actually pulled it off again last tournament. Say you dredge a couple of times and your hand has Stinkweed Imp or Golgari Thug.
You have three creatures and want to kill but fear a possible counterspell in your opponent's hand. Now, Dread Return targetting FKZ will definitely draw it out, so instead you Dread Return targetting Eternal Witness. This is the part where this trick sort of flaws out; it depends on your opponent not realising your plan. If your opponent isn't all that great he'll say (and I quote my opponent from that game) "Ohh.. it's just Witness, no problem". Then you take Unmask and cast it taking the Counterspell. Then you play Dread Return number two to get FKZ.

Basically you're Dread Returing through a Counterspell without mana, for the win

Although it's always a bad idea not to mention bad judgement to assume your opponent is stupid...

Pce,

--DC

[kensook]

I don't get how it's ever a bad idea. In the case provided, it would mean that you have at least 2 Bridge from Below in your GY since you are casting dread return once and you could cast it again while still going for the win with FKZ. Even if the first DR gets countered, you get additional 6 zombies (assuming they are all non-token). After that you can just sacrifice 3 zombies for a DR on FKZ and swing for 12 and if the opponent isn't dead after that you wait an additional turn. What is so bad about that? Getting your tokens bounced or killed? Or am I still not getting it... urr.

[GoldenCid]

In the case provided, it would mean that you have at least 2 Bridge from Below in your GY since you are casting dread return once and you could cast it again while still going for the win with FKZ. Even if the first DR gets countered, you get additional 6 zombies (assuming they are all non-token). After that you can just sacrifice 3 zombies for a DR on FKZ and swing for 12 and if the opponent isn't dead after that you wait an additional turn. What is so bad about that?

Discard against counter deck is a philosophical matter.
I'm not sure if mayk0l thinks about winning in the same turn that he retrieves unmask, maybe is in the next one. What he did was just an example of the power of EW and nothing else, just in addition to the post made by parcher.
Remember that he is mentioning a MANALESS situation where you have FKZ and EW in your graveyard. In this point i think that you have only 1 DR available and you have to decide between getting the combo or get rid of a suspect counterspell before that. With mayk0l's list you have two option for the second aim:
Flashback cabal therapy or retrieve Unmask with EW using your only DR expecting to dredge the second in the draw step of your next turn. Of course if you have no therapy in yard and have tokens in play and a moeba you can run the move proposed by mayk0l. Then you get rid of the counter, pass (hoping a non-counter topdeck) and then get the combo by dredging, DR, zealot and that's it.

[kensook]

All right thanks. I thought he meant all in one turn but I guess he means in progressing turns, and in that case that would make sense.

[Parcher]

A bit of clarification here. While I cannot attest to the situation most recently described, I can describe mine.

I had three Ichorids and one Narcomoeba in play. My opponent had countered my PImp, so was at eighteen life, and I didn't want to chance another turn. Plus the fact that I would have to remove an Ichorid to attack with two the next turn. This was all from slow dredging.

I had a Breakthrough in hand, one Bridge in play, and two Narcomoebas still in the deck, so a resolved Breakthrough was a win. Looking directly at my opponent, I pushed two Ichorids and the Narco into the yard and announced "Flashback Dread Return? Trigger Bridges?" He paused while I resolved the triggers and glanced at his three-card hand. He then faux-casually asked "Targetting?" At this point I was reading him on out-thinking himself. When I said Witness, I knew I was right, since I had an LED and DA in the 'yard. He had no idea I had been sandbagging the Breakthrough, which I correctly assumed.

It's not a particularly desirable play, nor is assuming an unknown opponent, (which he was) is an idiot (though when you know they are......) usually correct. Winning now is always the best play with this deck if available though.

[Mayk0l]

Although it's always a bad idea not to mention bad judgement to assume your opponent is stupid...


Yes, that's why I mentioned twice that that kind of play relies on an oversight on your opponent's side, which is not something you should assume will be the case.

Actually, to explain my situation once again (and more thoroughly) to rid of the confusion:
I had a Narcomoeba in play along with 2 Zombies. I actually had four bridges in my Graveyard. I returned Ichorid during my Upkeep, and dredged six with Troll. Seeing my attacks weren't lethal and I wanted a quick kill, I Dread Returned targetting Witness, and he was thinking about countering but didn't because he saw the FKZ in my yard and I wasn't targetting it. This nailed me 8 Zombies, and cost me 1. Story now: 9 Zombies and an Eternal Witness. I returned Unmask, pitching Golgari Thug, and taking a Force of Will (using the FoW would mean his hand would be empty, which would nail me two cards so he opted to just lose one, which of course, is irrelevant). I Dread Returned, sacrificing Witness and two zombies, nailing me four zombie tokens (11 tokens) and returning FKZ to swing. Two zombies were blocked I believe. So lethal swing.
All of this requires no mana. Note that I didn't have any therapies (yes, dredge four bridges and hit no therapies) because that would've been a lot easier.

Obviously, with only one Dread Return, you cannot win that same turn.



Conclusion: This is rare, highly far fetched play that almost never happens, since it's rare and far fetched. It's still awesome as f*ck though.




Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.
Or hardcast Thug to sac it to Therapy, put Moeba on top of your library and Dredging it two seconds later to put it into play. Or tapping a land to play Revelation, sac the land, Dread Return Eternal Witness to get a land back to Flashback Ray fo Revelation number 2, knocking out two Propaghanda's and swing :)

God I love this deck.

[GoldenCid]

Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.
Or hardcast Thug to sac it to Therapy, put Moeba on top of your library and Dredging it two seconds later to put it into play. Or tapping a land to play Revelation, sac the land, Dread Return Eternal Witness to get a land back to Flashback Ray fo Revelation number 2, knocking out two Propaghanda's and swing :)


This is a good example of the optimization of the card use of this deck, which demonstrates that each card has a purpose beyond of having dredge or not.
I can add DR a big GT to get through an annoying pernicious deed and my bridges extirpated!! Of course it was hard...

[TrialByFire]

Another thing to add, when you have Dakmor Salvage in your grave, your opponent cannot respond to you dredging it with Crypt. He would have to preemtively Crypt in your upkeep, because Dredge is a replacement effect, not a triggered ability.

[Dark_Cynic87]

Almost as cool as being at 5 live, staring down a Tombstalker and 6/7 Goyf with two zombie tokens. Returning Ichorid, Dread Returning for Stinkweed motherf*cking Imp, killing the Tombstalker with Deathtouch and swing for lethal the next turn.

Except by my math you die to a 6/7 goyf...How'ed you pull it off? Did they forget to attack with the goyf?

Pce,

--DC

[Mayk0l]

Except by my math you die to a 6/7 goyf...How'ed you pull it off? Did they forget to attack with the goyf?

Pce,

--DC

I DR Stinkweed, losing Ichorid and two Zombie tokens, but the sacrifice gave me three or four new zombie tokens. He swings with both Goyf and Tombstalker, I block Tombstalker with Imp and Goyf with a Zombie token.
Next Turn I return Ichorids, swing with the zombies and Ichorids. In a different scenario he doesn't attack with Tombstalker because he dies to Stinkweed Imp. In which case I overwhelm him within two turns (because Snuff Out doesn't do anything).

[Dark_Cynic87]

I DR Stinkweed, losing Ichorid and two Zombie tokens, but the sacrifice gave me three or four new zombie tokens. He swings with both Goyf and Tombstalker, I block Tombstalker with Imp and Goyf with a Zombie token.
Next Turn I return Ichorids, swing with the zombies and Ichorids. In a different scenario he doesn't attack with Tombstalker because he dies to Stinkweed Imp. In which case I overwhelm him within two turns (because Snuff Out doesn't do anything).

Damn, I'm retarded...This is why I shouldn't do math.

Pce,

--DC

[Joe_C]

Parcher: I know you played Ichorid this weekend at TMLO4... How did things work out?

[Parcher]

Parcher: I know you played Ichorid this weekend at TMLO4... How did things work out?

Badly. Losing to MUC is about as bad as things can go for Ichorid. So....yeah.

At least Nick (MUC player) was about as nice as one can be without laughing about how poorly his worst possible match-up went for me. It was an enjoyable beating.

[Joe_C]

Badly. Losing to MUC is about as bad as things can go for Ichorid. So....yeah.

At least Nick (MUC player) was about as nice as one can be without laughing about how poorly his worst possible match-up went for me. It was an enjoyable beating.

yeah, Nick (Kadaj here in the source) is a nice guy to play against.

[akira073]

i was just wondering...is it basically standard to not play akroma/hellkite overlord/beefy guy anymore? i don't really see the deck being consistant enough with only 2 dredge returns and a FKZ and cephalid sage/witness

also, unmask is very nice vintage tech but since we almost always win game 1, it seems like its unnecessary and left as a board card at best

[Dark_Cynic87]

Beefy guys are rarely used anymore as we've turned to a more controlling aspect with the list. Unmask isn't "vintage tech". It's for against a more controlling metagame. 6x Discard spells help get through hate. Also, most lists now run 3x Dread Returns since we now play Eternal Witness. Some people still do and it's not entirely wrong, it's simply not optimal.

Some people do choose to leave Unmask in their sideboard. It all depends on your metagame. If you see a lot of FoW's and other counters in your metagame, it's probably wise to maindeck it. If not, feel free to leave it in your board.

Pce,

--DC

[Concallesco]

Speaking of Fat Men, which Fat Man is best, if any? Red Akroma? Simic Sky Swallower? Angel of Vindicate? Tree-man of Almost Vindicate Twice? I've been leaning towards SSS, but I wanted to know what you guys were thinking.

[akira073]

Speaking of Fat Men, which Fat Man is best, if any? Red Akroma? Simic Sky Swallower? Angel of Vindicate? Tree-man of Almost Vindicate Twice? I've been leaning towards SSS, but I wanted to know what you guys were thinking.

i think these are the fatties to be put into consideration, obviously some being more viable than others maindeck:

red akroma
white akroma
hellkite overlord
simic sky swallower
angel of despair
woodfall primus

as far as the hasters go, i like hellkite over white akroma because it's very likely that your opponent will do 4 damage to themselves, which puts them on a one-turn clock after you DR hellkite.

for the removal creatures, i prefer primus over angel because he can potentially net you 8 tokens while getting rid of some annoying permanents.

i haven't really tested around with the protection creatures yet, but i think it's a toss up. even though red akroma can deal with what i think is the best removal spell in the format (swords to plowshares) and deal with bounce, i would still pick simic. simic is harder to deal with because your opponent HAS to have a creature that flies and is bigger.

right now, i'm trying out this build

CREATURES
4x Golgari Grave Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomeoba
4x Ichorid
4x Putrid Imp
1x Hellkite Overlord
1x Cephalid Sage
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Woodfall Primus

SPELLS
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Dread Return
4x Bridge from Below
4x Breakthrough
3x Deep Analysis

MANA SOURCES
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine

[GoldenCid]

Speaking of Fat Men, which Fat Man is best, if any?

At first i thought that they were necesary as 3rd win condition or some kind of protection. Afterwards i realized that none is necesary at least in main deck. The only one i consider in SB is ancestor's chosen for goblins and fanatic sligh / burn match ups were our bridges are easily removed. Ancestor's give us at least 10-15 lifes and a 4/4 first strike which is pretty enough for the ichorid beatdown.

[Dark_Cynic87]

At first i thought that they were necesary as 3rd win condition or some kind of protection. Afterwards i realized that none is necesary at least in main deck. The only one i consider in SB is ancestor's chosen for goblins and fanatic sligh / burn match ups were our bridges are easily removed. Ancestor's give us at least 10-15 lifes and a 4/4 first strike which is pretty enough for the ichorid beatdown.

QFT. Seriously. This is good. Also, Ad Nauseam lists are becoming capable of goldfishing us, and this gives you a good chance of getting out of Tendrils range.

Pce,

--DC

[Jaiminho]

QFT. Seriously. This is good. Also, Ad Nauseam lists are becoming capable of goldfishing us, and this gives you a good chance of getting out of Tendrils range.

Nauseam decks play IGG and without graveyard hate, there's nothing you can do to not let them still kill you with a huge Tendrils. Even without IGG, Nauseam will be able to contribute to make the number of Tendrils on the stack above 15 easily.

Onto the question: how many times can you bring Ancestor's Chosen back to gain 15+ life but can't bring FZK or whatever for lethal damage?

[akira073]

Nauseam decks play IGG and without graveyard hate, there's nothing you can do to not let them still kill you with a huge Tendrils. Even without IGG, Nauseam will be able to contribute to make the number of Tendrils on the stack above 15 easily.

Onto the question: how many times can you bring Ancestor's Chosen back to gain 15+ life but can't bring FZK or whatever for lethal damage?

when you dredge and hit no bridges, lol

[GoldenCid]

Nauseam decks play IGG and without graveyard hate, there's nothing you can do to not let them still kill you with a huge Tendrils. Even without IGG, Nauseam will be able to contribute to make the number of Tendrils on the stack above 15 easily.

Against nauseam decks i would not side ancestor's for the life winning, this is a bad matchup and we have to beat them as soon as possible. Probably i would reserve ancestor's for decks that can easily remove your bridges, ie goblins, sligh (spark elemental and krldon marauders are awful) or sakura decks (in a minor fashion).


Onto the question: how many times can you bring Ancestor's Chosen back to gain 15+ life but can't bring FZK or whatever for lethal damage?

When your bridges are removed your only way to win is with ichorid beat down. With ancestor's in play you will find enough time to get the victory.

[Mayk0l]

I agree, Chosen is the only 'fatty' I've ever boarded.
It's not necessary anymore though. Firestorm rapes aggro more than Chosen ever will, that, and Firestorm gets online earlier and doesn't require a Dread Return (which can be hard to pull off on time without Bridges and burns flying around).

Firestorm has been solid for me. It comes in against Blue Control because the discard cannot be countered (and you can always discard at least two cards because there are always two targets), and it comes in against aggro. I play it instead of Leyline, which seems pretty useless (especially in today's Ichorid-less meta). I beat two Goyf Sligh decks with Firestorm in the Dutch Legacy Championships; I didn't need nor want Leyline even once during the entire tournament.

[GoldenCid]

I agree, Chosen is the only 'fatty' I've ever boarded.
It's not necessary anymore though. Firestorm rapes aggro more than Chosen ever will, that, and Firestorm gets online earlier and doesn't require a Dread Return (which can be hard to pull off on time without Bridges and burns flying around).

Firestorm has been solid for me. It comes in against Blue Control because the discard cannot be countered (and you can always discard at least two cards because there are always two targets), and it comes in against aggro. I play it instead of Leyline, which seems pretty useless (especially in today's Ichorid-less meta). I beat two Goyf Sligh decks with Firestorm in the Dutch Legacy Championships; I didn't need nor want Leyline even once during the entire tournament.

I think i agree, but against aggro ie white winnie, goblins and fellows is really needed?? Who receives the damage from firestorm? creature or player?? If creatures, the bridges will be removed so how do you use firestorm. Indeed i'd like to know because y really like that card. Here i list my SB for comparisson:

3 Unmask
4 Pithing needle
4 Chain of vapor
1 Ancestor`s chosen
3 Wax // Wane

[NecroYawgmoth]

In the past, you used Contagion to kill Yixlid Jailers (which also removes Bridges), now you can use Firestorm, because it kills Jailer too, and seems to be good against Aggro (you are playing more the control part then I think...)

Yeah, you remove Bridges, but than you can use Ichorid-Beatdown.
...also Firestorm can also deal damage to players (or kill them)...

YawG

[GoldenCid]

In the past, you used Contagion to kill Yixlid Jailers (which also removes Bridges), now you can use Firestorm, because it kills Jailer too, and seems to be good against Aggro (you are playing more the control part then I think...)


Indeed i never use contagion, darkblast or creepling fatige to kill yixlid, chain of vapor is pretty enough for him. Moreover, yixlid is nasty but not terrible for us, it allows you to draw for sb cards while you play small creatures from your hand.
I understand that this is a matter of game modulation when using firestorm or other kill cards.
When i play agains MUC or fellows (landstill) i simply side unmask, CoV and needle, maybe i should reserve unmask for combo and side in firestorm to keep my discard outlet against control. If i do this my side should chance, what do you think -3 Wax // Wane +3 Firestorm??
For prision effect i will depend on CoV (great card) and that's it.

[smoky squirrel]

I have an idea for an unconventional sideboard... Your thoughts on it please:

4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4 Stifle

Why Stifle? It helps against combo matchups (they dont expect it), but also everywhere a Needle helps, the Stifle helps. But this is still an idea, ill come around to testing. But maybe there are some insightful opinions about it.

For reference, I am using Mayk0l's main deck.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Mayk0l writes that you don't need Anestors anymore, when you play Firestorm, so why don't you exchange the (not-needed) reanimation-target, for some reanimater with utility (Sundering Titan or Empyrial Archangel for example)

YawG

[smoky squirrel]

Yeah sure, the Ancestor's is maybe too much... But it is the Stifle I want to discuss... It is an unconventional thing, but maybe people already tested it and found it useless.

[NecroYawgmoth]

...don't know about Stifle

I think Needle is better for the reason you can stop cards like Crypt, Relic or Deed, more than once...

...it's right that Stifle is better against combo than Needle, but against combo you have Therapys and Unmask nowadays, and Ichorid is an fast deck, too.

That means, I think Stifle is not needed, I rather use cards to stop gravehate, then play more cards that halp against combo, cuz we are combo, too somehow...

YawG

[Dark_Cynic87]

Stifle blows. It's a reactive card and will not be handy in any given situation ever. This list has proactive cards that do proactive things. This deck isn't about waiting around until they combo off. I don't think it's good against enough stuff to waste 4x slots in your sideboard. It may work once, but they will chant game 3. I think it's better to stick with Unmask and Firestorm (good against Ad Nauseam? They Ad Nauseam, you burn them for x after they are done ad nauseaming and you have cards in hand?).

I hate stifle in most lists. The only thing I think it's good for it Stiflenought and thrash lists.

Pce,

--DC

[GoldenCid]

But it is the Stifle I want to discuss...

Stifle is not useful here my friend. This card can't never replace needle. Although it is right that where needle helps stifle does, needle can be play once in your hand. If you are afraid of tormod (for example) you just play it naming tormod even when the opponent hasn't played it yet. Also, pithing needle stops mogg fanatic and stifle doesn't. If you "stifle" a fanatic you will not receive the 1 damage from it but your bridges will be removed anyway.
For combo if think that unmask + therapy are good and they also help us in the control matchup.

[akira073]

Mayk0l writes that you don't need Anestors anymore, when you play Firestorm, so why don't you exchange the (not-needed) reanimation-target, for some reanimater with utility (Sundering Titan or Empyrial Archangel for example)

YawG

i really like the idea of Sundering Titan. theres a lot of thresh/dreadstill/rock decks around here so i'll try it at my next event and i'll bb with the results

also, has anyone toyed with the idea of using Sower of Temptation or Guilded Drake for dealing with dreadstill? i just searched for a while for a bunch of neat tricks we can pull. i also came across Gravespawn Sovereign and Noxious Ghoul as a long-shot possibility

[Bane of the Living]

i really like the idea of Sundering Titan. theres a lot of thresh/dreadstill/rock decks around here so i'll try it at my next event and i'll bb with the results

also, has anyone toyed with the idea of using Sower of Temptation or Guilded Drake for dealing with dreadstill? i just searched for a while for a bunch of neat tricks we can pull. i also came across Gravespawn Sovereign and Noxious Ghoul as a long-shot possibility

Firestorm doesn't work out in this deck since the chances of casting it are too small. You only have about 8 sources of red mana unless your dropping coliseums like an idiot. Against aggro you just resolve your broken spells and win. Needle crypt or fanatic and stop losing.

Sundering Titan is pointless. Wouldn't you rather win the game? If dread return resolves you should pretty much win right there. dredging the rest of the deck with sage or going for the kill with fkz is all you need.

Passive cards make this deck bad. Unmask worked out because it isn't Force of Will. I don't think people get that.

[akira073]

Firestorm doesn't work out in this deck since the chances of casting it are too small. You only have about 8 sources of red mana unless your dropping coliseums like an idiot....Unmask worked out because it isn't Force of Will. I don't think people get that.

care to elaborate? you're saying unmask works because it's not nearly as busted as force??

i agree with most of what you're saying about what should happen game one. the passive cards you're referring too are possible choices for board. passive cards do make the deck bad...for game one. there are also times when you may not see FKZ hit your yard ever game one, so its kinda nice to have a reliable alternative.

you say firestorm wouldn't work because theres only 8 red sources.
so does this mean we should cut putrid imp since there are only 8 black sources?
unless your concern is too many 1drops that call for mana other than blue. but then we can naturally assume the possibility of swapping discard outlets for another discard outlets.

needle solves a lot of our problems, but for the other cards it really depends on your meta. not every location will have everyone playing the best top8 decks in the format. there are decks that run meddling mage or gaddock teeg where we would find firestorm useful. a perfect example of my meta is the genesis/spore frog lockout. it rather annoying having to auto-scoop to this so again, firestorm would be a great choice

look, i get at what you're trying to say, but we're all trying to be constructive here. i really wish i could see FKZ in play every game and have needle solve every problem, but unfortunately it just doesn't always happen. instead of shooting down every suggestion people have made for the last 4 pages, how about posting an updated list with board? it would be much appreciated :)

[loop]

I think he's saying Unmask works because it's proactive and not reactive. How good is Force to help you resolve Breakthrough+LED ?

[Mayk0l]

Some interesting things have come up.

First, addressing Stifle
I completely agree with Dark_Cynic87. Stifle is a card we shouldn't play for the same reason I tried and discarded Orim's Chant. Although I think Stifle has its advantages (since it can be cast off of all the lands), it's still not as effective as you'd want it to be. You're right, it hits the same targets Pithing Needle does, but you're forced to have an open mana "at all times". You drop Pithing Needle naming Tormod's Crypt or Mogg Fanatic (and Stifle doesn't stop him as mentioned some posts above this one) and you're done, no more worrying untill they remove Needle. Stifle doesn't work that way. Not only because it works only once, but it's reactive. This reactive aspect of Stifle makes it worse in the combo matchup because on one hand you want to go LED/Breakthrough and go nuts, on the other hand, you want one blue mana to cast the Stifle in your hand. Also note, it's a one trick pony; Orim's Chant will stop you Stifling any combo player who's seen you pull it off. That's why I preferred Chant; you could at least respond to their Chant with one of your own, buying you a turn. Still, it's not good enough because it's reactive and takes the wind out of your own sails.

On Sundering Titan
I still don't get it, why would you run it? Sure, it blows up the duallands Thresh and TA are packing, but those are Matchups we shouldn't be worrying about. All these decks are boarding Tormod's Crypt. Other than that, you beat them. Why would you ever want to destroy their manabase when they need 0 mana to screw you over? Focus on the more important things; if you can stop Tormod's Crypt, you will win the matchup against any Threshish deck. Once more: sure, you can pack things that are 'effective against a lot of decks' but newsflash: Ichorid is effective against most decks out there. If you can make Games 2 and/or 3 look like Game 1 (by nullifying their hate), you'll win.

The same is true for Sower of Temptation and Gilded Drake. Dreadstill is an OK matchup if you find a way to deal with the Crypts. By siding in Sowers and Gilded Drakes you're giving them more targets for their Counters (for Dread Return), Stifles and Trickbinds and in some builds, Swords to Plowshares. The Dreadnought is not really a problem. And if you really want something against it, I'd suggest Ancient Grudge (remember; Dreadstill will always side out their Counterbalances against you, giving you a better chance of Therapying the rest of their counters away), but I've never deemed this necessary. I've always won the damage race when they didn't have counterbackup for their Nought; they still have to drop it and swing twice. I don't really see Dreadstill as a bad MU. Tutorable Crypts can get nasty, but if you can't stop those, Sower isn't going to help you either. If you want answers to Dreadnought, you're going to be dredging a lot anyway, if you're dredging a lot, you should be winning, not answering Noughts.

On Firestorm and the manabase;
I understand where the comment comes from but that problem, at least to me has been rare. The risk of not being able to cast your Firestorm doesn't weigh up to the advantage of when you can. Firestorm has won me too many games to be discarded that easily.
On how to use it; obviously, you're trying to reduce the damage as much as you can in terms of removing Bridges. You'll have to assess every individual situation and weigh the pro's and cons of killing their creatures. But when you're facing down Mogg Fanatic, or Grim Lavamancer or other typical GoyfSligh utility, you might as well play the Firestorm and sacrifice the bridges, because you're losing them anyway.
On burning Nauseam players: I side them in, but it's a long shot. I've only managed to do it once myself. The problem is, you're usually going to need at least three targets because a Nauseam player will usually stop at three tops. Basically this means you need a Red Mana, three cards in hand and a target on the table, and that's a lot. As Stifle and Orim's Chant, Firestorm against combo has the same reactive role, and isn't that effective. The reason I side them in is because, at least with my sideboard, next to the fourth Unmask we don't have that much to side in and the MU is not that good. You could for example remove the Eternal Witness and an Ichorid to add 2 Firestorms. The effect will be minimal, but apart from the slim chance of burning out a careless TES player, you'll have a better chance at going crazy turn two with DAs, BTs, etc.
Combo has become a hard fight since they printed Ad Nauseam. I usually just hope to dodge the TES-like decks in tournaments. It's a frustrating MU, you Therapy their whole hand, they will topdeck Nauseam. You take their tutors, they'll topdeck a new one. I guess I'm an 'unlucky guy' when playing against combo, but I'm not too optimistic about it anymore. I used to be, when there was no Ad Nauseam but now, I don't know. The MU doesn't feel 'fair' anymore.

On Unmask
It's frigging gold. Stop gold-fishing the deck and take it to an actual tournament, then play it. It's solid.

[GoldenCid]

Thank you so much for your report!
When you say: "But when you're facing down Mogg Fanatic, or Grim Lavamancer or other typical GoyfSligh utility, you might as well play the Firestorm and sacrifice the bridges, because you're losing them anyway."

You are completely right, we have to find the equilibrium!

[Joe_C]

I am still using the normal board of:

4 firestorm
4 pithing needle
4 chain of vapor
1 unmask(3 maindecked)
2 ray of revelation

Still seems really good to me. Only change I could see is -2 ray +2 Wispmare.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Why should Wispmare be better than Ray of Revelation?

YawG

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Wispmare has the offhand chance of creating Zombie tokens with Bridge from Below.

[TheRock]

Unmask is also good because it can get rid of any hate that you want while requiring you to pitch a BLACK card, not a blue card. Extirpate is a really risky card to use against Ichorid, and once you play Unmask, it's a much weaker card. Not only can you get rid of Extirpate game 3, but you can also force your opponent to possibly pick the wrong card or a subpar card game 2 as well.

The problem with running "cute" trick cards maindeck or even sideboard is that you have to run less cards like Unmask, Golgari Thug, or other good sideboard cards to have the space for it all and I don't feel that it pans out in the end. I used to run Gamble for a long time until I started losing because I didn't have Unmask to back up my hate or be the hate. Most decks in this format can't beat you unless they hit you with Extirpate correctly and I will take all of the free wins I can get.

[Jaiminho]

Most decks in this format can't beat you unless they hit you with Extirpate correctly and I will take all of the free wins I can get.

I thought it was pretty well estabilished that Extirpate is the worst graveyard based you can use against Ichorid.

[TheRock]

I thought it was pretty well estabilished that Extirpate is the worst graveyard based you can use against Ichorid.

You sure won't hear any argument from me!

Well, maybe I'll be worried about it to some extent if I lower the Unmask count (which will never happen as long as ANT is around) or decks like Team America start running something more than and other than Extirpate in their sideboard. Until then, I'm going to continue to worry about decks like Dreadstill who have plenty of ways to slow you down, ANT, and decks that go "Mountain -> goblin, go".

[GoldenCid]

Why should Wispmare be better than Ray of Revelation?

YawG

Some pages ago there's a discussion about this item. Someones prefer wispmare due to its tokenmake hability when you evoke / sac it. Others prefer Ray due to it instant speed and the posibility of playing it fron grave by flashback for 1 mana instead of reanimating a creature. It's up to you.
In may opinion i didn't find useful anyone of them since we run 4x of CoV reusable with witness. CoV is pretty versatile, that's why i don't run darkblast, contagion or creepling fatigue,it's just not necessary. However it's just my opinion and just my experience.

[loop]

The other good thing about Wispmare is that it only costs W to evoke, so it is more reliable than Ray as an answer to Leyline.
And as said before, you can dread return them to handle Propagandas against the few decks that actually run it (call it a nice side effect, not having to dedicate slots to such a rarely played card).


In may opinion i didn't find useful anyone of them since we run 4x of CoV reusable with witness.
More than 4 answers to Leyline allow you to more reliably mull into it (since, well, you HAVE to). I personally run 4 Chains and 2 Wispmares, and even though I don't encounter many Leylines I feel safer having enough answers in my board :)

[akira073]

after testing, i think theres some fat that can be cut from the deck. i'll start by posting my updated list

CREATURES

1x Eternal Witness
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Hellkite Overlord
4x Narcomeoba
3x Ichorid
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug

SPELLS

1x Darkblast
4x Bridge From Below
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Deep Analysis
4x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough

MANA SOURCES

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine

SIDEBOARD

4x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle
3x Firestorm
3x Wispmare
1x Ancient Grudge

I still stand by my argument of running Careful Study over Unmask maindeck. It gets you to what you need to win game one, because lets face it...if we lose game one, we basically conseed the match.

I love the addition of Firestorm!!! It's a great sweeper and there's no feeling that can describe how it feels wiping a goblin player's board.

As far as cutting some of the fat goes, I decided to cut an Ichorid and a Cabal Therapy. It seems like running 4x of each of those takes away from the focus on winning the turn you go off. And as much as I hate to throw a "beef" spot back in, I really feel that another Dread Return target is necessary.

[GoldenCid]

The other good thing about Wispmare is that it only costs W to evoke, so it is more reliable than Ray as an answer to Leyline.
And as said before, you can dread return them to handle Propagandas against the few decks that actually run it (call it a nice side effect, not having to dedicate slots to such a rarely played card).


This is a good point in favour of wispmare, but running 2 as you mentioned makes it a bit weak maybe 3 would be the right number. Even against leyline your draw should enough to hit a chain, bounce in the eot and combo off in your next turn / 2 turns. However, against leyline i think that's wispmare is better than ray if you want to know my opinion. Propaganda cards are not such a problem for running other cards than CoV.


As far as cutting some of the fat goes, I decided to cut an Ichorid and a Cabal Therapy. It seems like running 4x of each of those takes away from the focus on winning the turn you go off. And as much as I hate to throw a "beef" spot back in, I really feel that another Dread Return target is necessary.

Ichorid and Therapy are awesome!!! I really recomend to run 4x of each one. Ichorid is beatdown, tokens source and dread return / therapy feed!!!
Therapy gives you a safe combo since it gets you rid from counters, chants and others things!!

[Dark_Cynic87]

after testing, i think theres some fat that can be cut from the deck. i'll start by posting my updated list

CREATURES

1x Eternal Witness
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Hellkite Overlord
4x Narcomeoba
3x Ichorid
4x Putrid Imp
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
2x Golgari Thug

SPELLS

1x Darkblast
4x Bridge From Below
3x Dread Return
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Deep Analysis
4x Careful Study
4x Breakthrough

MANA SOURCES

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Cephalid Coliseum
4x City of Brass
3x Gemstone Mine

SIDEBOARD

4x Chain of Vapor
4x Pithing Needle
3x Firestorm
3x Wispmare
1x Ancient Grudge

I still stand by my argument of running Careful Study over Unmask maindeck. It gets you to what you need to win game one, because lets face it...if we lose game one, we basically conseed the match.

I love the addition of Firestorm!!! It's a great sweeper and there's no feeling that can describe how it feels wiping a goblin player's board.

As far as cutting some of the fat goes, I decided to cut an Ichorid and a Cabal Therapy. It seems like running 4x of each of those takes away from the focus on winning the turn you go off. And as much as I hate to throw a "beef" spot back in, I really feel that another Dread Return target is necessary.

I personally believe you would do better with the non-LED list in developing competetive. Honestly, it feels like you are wanting more consistancy as opposed to the breakneck speed this deck is designed for. With 4x Ichorid, you can pound face as much as 12 damage a turn. Furthermore, the sooner you hit one, the quicker you can go off, and you can sometimes win the match before you even get the combo available.

Cutting Ichorid and Cabal Therapy are indeed bad decisions that in the end you will not be happy with. There are some matchups that rely soley on Ichorid beatz, as well as many game 2's where you would normally side out the combo.

Pce,

--DC

[akira073]

I personally believe you would do better with the non-LED list in developing competetive. Honestly, it feels like you are wanting more consistancy as opposed to the breakneck speed this deck is designed for. With 4x Ichorid, you can pound face as much as 12 damage a turn. Furthermore, the sooner you hit one, the quicker you can go off, and you can sometimes win the match before you even get the combo available.

Cutting Ichorid and Cabal Therapy are indeed bad decisions that in the end you will not be happy with. There are some matchups that rely soley on Ichorid beatz, as well as many game 2's where you would normally side out the combo.

Pce,

--DC
yeah you might be right. for some reason, the LED version isn't consistent enough for my liking as a combo deck. :\

[Daze]

I've some questions regarding sideboarding. I'm running the LED-Version with the following Sideboard:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Unmask


Usually, I'm siding out the Dread Return package for the Needles against unknown sideboards, expecting Crypt or Relic. Against Leyline or Jailer, obviously Chain or Firestorm come in.
My question is, what do you board out if you board in more then 4 cards (e.g. needing Needle and Firestorm against aggro, or Chains and Rays against Leyline) and are there any Matchups where you leave the Dread Return package mainboard (Ad Nauseam?)?

[GoldenCid]

My question is, what do you board out if you board in more then 4 cards (e.g. needing Needle and Firestorm against aggro, or Chains and Rays against Leyline)

Well...this depends on if you want to keep the combo fashion or not.
When you decide to not keep the combo 6 cards are easy cut:

4 LED
2 Deep analysis

Then a copy (it depends on how many copies do you run) of dread return is good. And the FKZ goes away.

This gives you an 8 cards outboard which is enough in my oppinion.

When cut the combo off??

Well i do that against MUC and fellows, goblins, burn and fellows. In my oppinon some kind of aggro decks doesn't deserve boarding out the whole combo so i keep the zealot in but it is a personal taste.

If you keep the combo, sideboarding is a bit difficult, i'd do like this:

-1 Dread return
-1 Breakthrough
-2 / 3 Careful study
-1 Golgari thug
May be a LED

Other cuts depends on you and on the match.


and are there any Matchups where you leave the Dread Return package mainboard (Ad Nauseam?)?

I don't do it. I always keep at least 1 copy for Eterneal witness post side.

[Parcher]

Using that sideboard, this is the closest I could give to an accurate, blanket guide. This is assuming you see no Black spells in Game one, and have to bet on Crypt coming in:

Blue-based Control with Crypt:

+ 4 Chain
+ 4 Needle

- 4 LED
- 2 DA
- 1 Dread Return
- 1 Witness

Aggro with Crypt:

+ 4 Firestorm
+ 4 Needle

-3 Unmask
-1 DA
-1 FKZ
-1 Dread Return
-2 LED

Blue-based Control splash Black (Jailer):

+ 4 Chain
+ 3 Firestorm

-2 Putrid Imp
-2 LED
-2 DA
-1 Dread Return


Aggro with Black (Leyline):

+ 4 Chain
+ 2 Ray

-3 Unmask
-1 FKZ
-1 Dread Return
-1 DA

Survival (Leyline, Jailer, and Magus):

+ 4 Firestorm
+ 4 Chain

-3 Unmask
-1 FKZ
-1 Dread Return
-1 DA
-1 Putrid Imp
-1 LED

Non-Blue Board Control (Stax, Rock, etc.):

+ 4 Chain
+ 2 Ray

-1 FKZ
-2 DA
-1 Narcomoeba
-1 Dread Return
-1 Putrid Imp

(Storm)Combo:

+ 3 Firestorm
+ 1 Unmask

-2 Putrid Imp
-1 Ichorid
-1 Golgari Thug

[GoldenCid]

Blue-based Control with Crypt:

+ 4 Chain
+ 4 Needle

- 4 LED
- 2 DA
- 1 Dread Return
- 1 Witness

Blue-based Control splash Black (Jailer):

+ 4 Chain
+ 3 Firestorm

-2 Putrid Imp
-2 LED
-2 DA
-1 Dread Return


This are similar situation but sideboarding is significatively different, why not needle here too?? I mean, jailer could be bounce and the combo off while on the other you needle other things (crypt, EE, etc are expected here too right?)...am i pretty wrong?

[Parcher]

To clarify, I was referring to Blue-based Aggro-Control, as Black-splash Control such as Landstill will rarely run Jailer.

Crypt becomes less relevant since these decks, while being the best in mirror and Combo matches, rarely can speed out a clock. Even Team America, which rarely runs Jailer, can push out a threat quickly. And even if they land a 'Goyf, if you are playing around Crypt he will be very small.

Your best bet in these matches is to sculpt a hand that can win in one turn. Here is where instants become the most important. You want Imp and Firestorm as instant-speed discard, and FS and Chain as instant-speed answers to Jailer. Imp and Chain can also act as such if they have Crypt. But as mentioned, you can just beat against these decks if they have a Crypt they are sitting on.

You by this time should have enough disruption and draw to win during your turn, which is why Witness and FKZ stay in. You can cut two Imps since they will match such a small clock with Jailer, and they only have Black(dead) removal for them. Against Team America, horde lands for this moment, and against Black Thresh horde discard. I keep two LEDs in case they don't have Crypt, and sit on one until this point if drawn.

[kicks_422]

Mike Herbig told me to check out Whirlpool Drake as a DR target. In goldfishing, it sometimes emptied the library in one pinch. Sometimes, it just flat out sucked. The added dimension of randomness looks steep, but the potential is there. Has anyone else tested it out?

[Mayk0l]

The idea is nice, but the dissynergy with LED is horrible.
Maybe it's worth testing in the LEDless version?

[kicks_422]

You know, I actually meant to post that in the non-LED thread. I'll post it there too.

[GoldenCid]

You know, I actually meant to post that in the non-LED thread. I'll post it there too.

Yeah! That's right. It's a nice guy but with LED and even breakthrough it sinergy becomes poor.

By the way some days ago i won a 29 players torunament with my dredge.
Pairings:

Burn (2)
Reanimate
RG aggro (1-1 in first round and 2-0 in final game)
White winnie
Random deck

[FredMaster]

Ichorid seems like a good meta call in there. Grats

[GoldenCid]

Again...i'm glad to comment you all that i won again with my dredge in a 32 players tournament. Here is my tournament route:

1st Round: White winnie 2-1. 1-0-0
2st Round: Monored 2-0. 2-0-0
3st Round: Aluren 0-2 (i played horrible). 2-0-1
4st Round: Survival 2-0. 3-0-1

Top 8

Quarterfinal: Aluren, again the same guy (my revenge :tongue: ) 2-1. 4-0-1
Semifinal: Pox 2-0. 5-0-1
Final: Landstill (the firestorm apparition) 2-0. 6-0-1

I'm glad and proud, however i know that i have to go higher!

[Muradin]

Did you run Parcher's list or did you play Careful Study?
This is in general the main question I have regarding this deck. Unmask is really nice, but Careful study simply is a card that seems to be a perfect fit in this deck as it can act as a discard outlet and as a dredge enabler.
Unmask is very good at protecting your combo and the card I found myself boarding in most when running Careful Study.
Especially when looking at the Top 8 decklists in the deckcheck there are more lists with Careful Study in them but on the other hand many people play with Unmask as well. Is this a metagame decission? And what are other pros and cons fpr each of those two cards?

[GoldenCid]

Did you run Parcher's list or did you play Careful Study?
This is in general the main question I have regarding this deck. Unmask is really nice, but Careful study simply is a card that seems to be a perfect fit in this deck as it can act as a discard outlet and as a dredge enabler.
Unmask is very good at protecting your combo and the card I found myself boarding in most when running Careful Study.
Especially when looking at the Top 8 decklists in the deckcheck there are more lists with Careful Study in them but on the other hand many people play with Unmask as well. Is this a metagame decission? And what are other pros and cons fpr each of those two cards?

I run a 3x version of careful study. I feel confortable with it in most situations. Is a 1 cmc blue drop, improves your opening hand and is a discard outlet. In addition, and just in my experience, it is a spell that control players doesn't choose to counter because it is not such powerful as first spell. This let you put a dredger in yard very often. As a pro dredge card it is not comparable with breakthrough and i didn't have many opportunities of playing it with a dredger in yard. However, although it's powerful as pro dredger i always prefer colisseum threshold ability or, even better, breakthroygh. After all it is a good card to see in your hand with a land in play / hand. In my experience i didn't find a clear situation where i would have wished i had unmask instead careful study, except against combo decks...and so kind of pox i guess.
I found unmask amazing as postside card against combo decks. Yesterday, i could say that unmask gave me the necesary time to win against aluren discarding, in fact, aluren. I think that combo is the good match up for unmask sideboarding cutting studies. Beside against control decks could be useful since you can search for counter / hate cards, but for me this isn't a straight rule.
So...i think that if you see too much combo in your zone you should to run some copies of unmask in the main deck otherwise i prefer studies as main cards. However, all is about taste!!

[Captain Hammer]

So overall, do you guys think the two version are comparable in power level still?

Or is the more explosive LED based version better than the slower but more consistent and versatile version that essentially runs 8 Putrid Imps?

[GoldenCid]

So overall, do you guys think the two version are comparable in power level still?

Or is the more explosive LED based version better than the slower but more consistent and versatile version that essentially runs 8 Putrid Imps?

In my oppinion the are comparable due to that both are dredge deck, but i think that LED version is better.

@all: what about your experience in mirror match with the "firestorm sideboard"??

3 Unmask
4 Pithing needle
4 Chain of vapor
4 Firestorm

[Parcher]

I ran into yet another new situation where Witness was far better than Sage.

I had one land in play, and had just dredged for my draw after a fizzled Breakthrough turn one. Neither of my dredges (only one one the Breakthrough) had revealed a dredger though, and I had no more in the 'yard. I did get enough creatures to cast Dread Return though.

I could have Witnessed back a Breakthrough, and that would be equivalent to Sage in that case; milling 3-4 and passing the turn. I Witnessed back LED and played it, dropped the two dredgers in my hand, and won that turn.

[GoldenCid]

I ran into yet another new situation where Witness was far better than Sage.

I had one land in play, and had just dredged for my draw after a fizzled Breakthrough turn one. Neither of my dredges (only one one the Breakthrough) had revealed a dredger though, and I had no more in the 'yard. I did get enough creatures to cast Dread Return though.

I could have Witnessed back a Breakthrough, and that would be equivalent to Sage in that case; milling 3-4 and passing the turn. I Witnessed back LED and played it, dropped the two dredgers in my hand, and won that turn.

Think that the land you had was a coliseum, then you dropped into grave a deep analysis, that's 5 cards to dredge.

[No_Life_No_Future]

I love this deck! Its awesome.

Has anyone tested Winds of Change?

It seems almost as busted as breakthrough if you can get a dredger in the yard first.

EX:
On the draw
Hand: 1 City of Brass 1 Winds of Change 1 Dredger 4 OTHERS

TURN 1: Draw disc dredger

TURN 2: Dredge, Play City of Brass, Cast Winds of Change with 5 cards in hand for up to six dredges????

EDIT: This card doesn't combo well with LED!!!

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Winds of Change doesn't discard, only shuffles. That makes it far less useful in more situations.

[GoldenCid]

Has anyone tested Winds of Change?
This card doesn't combo well with LED!!!

That's just one weakness for that card, but indeed the less important.

Others are:

1- It's red. I know that we run firestorm in SB but the advantage that this cards offers compensates its color. Not to mention that firestorm is instant. Your idea is WoC in main deck which difficult playing it in comparisson with breakthrough which is blue.

2- WoC needs at least a dredger in yard (via imp, careful study or whatever) to be exploded and breakthough doesn't because its discard abililty (this is very important for this deck). Besides if you have and extra mana it allows you to choose a card for keeping in hand (this is important post side and even pre side).

3- WoC gives draw to the opponent which could be really harmful for us, and breakthrough doesn't.

[Recon]

Hi guys,

It's bin a while since my last post here... Holidays and such, :tongue:

A big Legacy tournament is coming up this weekend and I was thinking about playing Ichorid again... Allthough last time it didn't go too well for me. I think I played the same tournament where Mayk0l finished 9th.
(141 players in total)

Quick review:

Bad luck, alot!





More Detailed:

First match:
against some Counter-Balance-Top deck
1) Extremely boring! I won in turn 3
2) Extremely boring, keep topping, thinking, topping, drawing... .... I lost due to some bad luck in dredges. Allmost got him though with single Narco beatdown :tongue:
3) Extremely boring! won on Ichorid beatdown. Allthough fatal damage came from his Dark Conf.

Second match:
against some strange green creature deck with some elves/Natural Order/and ??
1) Bad draws, mulligan to 5 or 4... nothing special. Lost
2) Won turn 2
3) Lost to 2 crypts and 2 relics
He didn't played legacy for some time and didn't knew the whole Ichorid deck and what it supposed to do... He just boarded in some graveyard hate since he saw some stuff coming out the yard in game 2. Wasn't in my favor :wink:

Third match:
Don't recall much of it... Thought it was some blue-control-lock.
Lost 2-0

Fourth match:
Goblins
Lost big time, allthough I had good hands to start with but looked like all my dredgers where on the bottom of the deck...


After that match I dropped. Could've bin that there was another match after the third and I played 5 in total but I don't remember it all.
All I know is that I was so unlucky most of the times. Bad draws/dredges and looking to 2 crypts and 2 relics in one game.

I seriously thought about playing another deck for the upcoming event but this deck just keeps calling me! :cool:
Especially since a lot of people are not really counting on it anymore since I see a lot of Team America, MUC, Storm-Combo and such being played.

Some important notes, (just to make this whole post a bit useful in the end)

- E.Witness really worked for me!
- Unmask also worked very well, especially since most people didn't see it coming
- Still thinking about W.mare vs. Ray ... Ray looked more useful sometimes, due to the flashback. I played the W.mares.
- I missed out on some artifact removal in some way. Could have bin my sideboard or play-mistakes...






ps.
I played allmost the same list as Mayk0l
(bit different sideboard)

[Dark_Cynic87]

Just to let you guys know, I've stopped playing Ichorid. There is too much storm combo in my area and this deck just can't compete well enough for me to keep playing it. As long as Ad Nauseam is around and Ichorid doesn't find a way to slow it down, I won't be playing this. I've won a couple times by going off turn 2 and them having a crappy hand, and once or twice by Firestorming after they Ad Nauseam but for the most part it's a horrible matchup.

Signing off,

--DC

[Ozymandias]

I went down to eleven lands and 10 dredgers to shoehorn two Studies to go with my 3 unmasks.

As for beating Ad Nauseum, one option that comes to mind is moving Chalice of the Void back into the board. Something like:

3 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Wispmare/Ray of Revelation
3 Firestorm
Might be workable.

The other option is somehow finding space to run 4 MD Chalice. It is admittedly dissynergystic with LED, but you can sequence correctly and then gain enough time to slow them severely, and then finish the job with ichorid-therapy. The most likely things to remove are the Unmasks/Studies.

The last option is the Vintage tech of one-two Sadistic Hypnotist MD as a DR target. If you can DR him on t2, even one or two spare zombies will win you the game when you Mind Twist them.

[memnarch]

Eh... so why is this not in the decks to beat forum?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Eh... so why is this not in the decks to beat forum?The DtB section is based on statistics, explained here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=120483&postcount=1). Ichorid hasn't been putting up the necessary numbers. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=302340&postcount=24)

However, this is not the place to talk about it. If you have a problem or want to discuss the DtB selection process, make a thread in the Community Board.

[knightinabox]

Hmnmn I love this deck. I saw a version running Akroma as a secondary win-con if the combo fails. IF this is viable, why not Progenitus?

[Sanguine Voyeur]

When Progenitus is put into a graveyard from anywhere, shuffle it into its owner's library.Unfortunately.

However, I [and other, more credible Ichorid players] have been using Eternal Witness to good effect. It's ability to return a Breakthough or disruption to destroy hate can get you out of many grave situations.

[knightinabox]

Whoops, missed that bit. Gah. Sorry about that.

Quick question, do you think this deck is viable without LeD?

[KillemallCFH]

Quick question, do you think this deck is viable without LeD?Yup. (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11920)

[GoldenCid]

Taking again the subjet of sideboard...how do you side against mirror with the "classical firestorm SB"?

[Corwin]

Hi guys, where can I find a matchup list of this deck?

[GoldenCid]

Hi guys, where can I find a matchup list of this deck?

what do you mean?? The list that says if one or other pairing is good or bad for this deck??

[Corwin]

what do you mean?? The list that says if one or other pairing is good or bad for this deck??
Yes.

[SuperBean]

MF'n River Kelpie.

Dread Return + River Kelpie = WIN.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

River Kelpie doesn't help you dig if you run out of steam like Cephalid Sage or Witness into Breakthough does. You need to Dread Return Kelpie, then play more things from your graveyard to keep going.

[GoldenCid]

River Kelpie doesn't help you dig if you run out of steam like Cephalid Sage or Witness into Breakthough does. You need to Dread Return Kelpie, then play more things from your graveyard to keep going.

I just agree with that. Although EW > RK >> CS.

What about TES decks?? Which is our best sb option??

[SuperBean]

Against T.E.S I bring in Leyline of the Void, it's a solid answer to the IGG loop. And unless you board Chalice of the Void, I think that is all our SB's offer.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Just a thought, but yesterday one of my friends was playing vintage ichorid and he was testing Nether Shadow. Is this good in legacy or does the deck just have no room?

[Joe_C]

Just a thought, but yesterday one of my friends was playing vintage ichorid and he was testing Nether Shadow. Is this good in legacy or does the deck just have no room?

I personally dont think the deck has room. And if it did, Ashen Ghoul would be better.

[GoldenCid]

I personally dont think the deck has room. And if it did, Ashen Ghoul would be better.

I think there's no room too.
But remember that mana generation is not a property of our deck, so ashen ghoul could hardly be played in spite of being a better creature than nether shadow. The last one has the "manaless vintage" property, however, with out haste and it is just an 1/1 guy.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Actually Nether Shadow does have haste. And i was looking it more from the stadpoint of consistency as if the deck doesn't hit a narcomeoba then getting the requisite 3 creatures for dread return could be difficult.

[GoldenCid]

Actually Nether Shadow does have haste.

That's right. My bad. It is just a manaless 1/1 guy. However there's something that doesn't like me about this kinds of creatures except ichorid off course.

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I tested a more mana-less version for a while today and it needs more mana-less ways to dump your hand.
4 Unmask and 4 LED are all I can think of.
Are there any others you can think of because if I can find about 2 more free hand dumps, we might be looking at a solid manaless ichorid.

[GoldenCid]

Why do you need a manaless version?

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Why not?
Seriously though, because it has the potential to be faster since we don't need to run lands or cards like breathrough and study that are useless unless we start with them

[GoldenCid]

Why not?
Seriously though, because it has the potential to be faster since we don't need to run lands or cards like breathrough and study that are useless unless we start with them

Useless?? I don't think so man. Oh, and by the way unmask remove a black card..so i reduce our hand in cards but if don't have discard stuff it is not good in manaless...

[Jeff Kruchkow]

Unmask is target player. And what i mean by useless is that you need to haveit in hand. Every breakthrough and land that you mill is another notbridge and notdredge-r.

[GoldenCid]

Unmask is target player. And what i mean by useless is that you need to haveit in hand. Every breakthrough and land that you mill is another notbridge and notdredge-r.

I get it...you're talking about using unmask "against you" by removing a black card from your hand, discard a dredger and maybe use street wraith for dredging that turn. Then if you're manaless you have to pray for another unmask, a LED or even a moeba followed by a therapy for discarding again...I don't know...
For this aim i use:

11 Lands
4 Putrid imp
3 Careful study (blue)
4 Breakthrough (blue)
4 LED
1 Eternal witness (for retrieve the "useless" cards)

Beyond all of this i would like to see a manaless ichprid legacy deck!

[Jeff Kruchkow]

I get it...you're talking about using unmask "against you" by removing a black card from your hand, discard a dredger and maybe use street wraith for dredging that turn. Then if you're manaless you have to pray for another unmask, a LED or even a moeba followed by a therapy for discarding again...I don't know...
For this aim i use:

11 Lands
4 Putrid imp
3 Careful study (blue)
4 Breakthrough (blue)
4 LED
1 Eternal witness (for retrieve the "useless" cards)

Beyond all of this i would like to see a manaless ichprid legacy deck!

I'm still trying but as of now, its still not fast enough.
This is what I have so far and it's not bad but it suffers from only dredging once per turn.

Draw/Dump
4 Street Wrath
4 LED
4 Unmask
4 Cabal Therapy

Dredge
4 Troll
4 Thug
4 Imp
1 Darkblast
2 Dakmor Salvage

Beats and Fodder
3 Dryad Arbor
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow

Stuff
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Serum Powder
1 FKZ

Win
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomeoba

I have also considered adding a 2-land mana base and running chalice and cycling to help draw and such.

Thoughts on the mana-less so far?

[GoldenCid]

It's too similar to the manaless vintage version... maybe +1 dryad for sb stuff...

I think that Bazaar of Baghdad is the optimal card for a manaless ichorid and it's banned for us... :(

[sunshine]

If you're trying to put together a manaless Ichorid build you might want to consider Phantasmagorian. Getting one in they yard goes a long way toward dumping your hand - a pair of them can give you all the free sac outlets you want - and they're black for Ichorid fodder.

[Joe_C]

It's too similar to the manaless vintage version... maybe +1 dryad for sb stuff...

I think that Bazaar of Baghdad is the optimal card for a manaless ichorid and it's banned for us... :(

Truth....

This is also why not having mana available in legacy= fail in manaless ichorid
The reason why vintage ichorid isnt BOSS is due to its tough time winning games 2/3 after they board in hate. Unless you are lucky enough to waltz into a tournament where noone is prepared to handle this deck, you will need mana to be able to fight it out g2/g3.

Not to deter from the discussion from this thread, but seriously everyone, try Non_Led Ichorid for some games against decks that run hate. Ive played and won against decks that have after boarding: deed, extirpate, leyline(the ROCK). Lets face it: both versions should win game 1 regardless unless your deck shits on you(poor dredges, it happens), game 2 and 3 having mana=better chances. With board I think LED based ichorid has a better game against combo(Unmask). But thats about the only matchup I think is improved

[Jeff Kruchkow]

sunshine, you are my hero. Phantasmagorian is EXACTLY what i needed in a dump outlet. Thanks you much.

Also, i recognize that Ichorid without mana has a harder game against hate. My hope is that a mana less version could be so much faster that we simply outrace hate like many other combo decks.

[mercc]

wake up!
ichorid won Ancient Memory Convention with 53 participants!

[DeathwingZERO]

Also, i recognize that Ichorid without mana has a harder game against hate. My hope is that a mana less version could be so much faster that we simply outrace hate like many other combo decks.

You can't outrace Leyline, Crypt (on the play), or most Storm based decks. These reasons alone are why we can't go with completely manaless. Even Vintage has gone to mana simply because the deck needs it games 2 and 3. It's even worse here without Bazaar.

[sunshine]

sunshine, you are my hero. Phantasmagorian is EXACTLY what i needed in a dump outlet. Thanks you much.

Also, i recognize that Ichorid without mana has a harder game against hate. My hope is that a mana less version could be so much faster that we simply outrace hate like many other combo decks.

Sweet, hope that works out in your testing - I will be interested to see what comes of it. My concern with a manaless version is that you might lose flexibility post sideboard. Most versions of ichorid steamroll their way through game one - it's games two and three that we need to worry about most. Whenever I try to rework my list I go at it from the approach of "how does this change help me work around or ignore hate?" In my experience the manaless legacy attempts have more trouble with hate.

[GoldenCid]

My concern with a manaless version is that you might lose flexibility post sideboard. Most versions of ichorid steamroll their way through game one - it's games two and three that we need to worry about most. In my experience the manaless legacy attempts have more trouble with hate.

Absolutely...indeed i think, that taking in acount that "the only conflux complication" if we can call it as it is path to exile (since we don´t run basic lands), we can keep the actual list with a narrow range of variation.

[Dark_Shakuras]

So what do Ichorid Sideboards look like these days?

I played back when it was:

4 Leyline
4 Chain
4 Needle/Chalice
2/1 Ray
1/2 Grudge

I see Firestorm has been added, what about Devastating Dreams? Hits lands as well at the cost of R, is it worth it?

Needle seems better (hits both Relice, and Crypt), but also Chalice helps the storm match-up. I would think Chalice is the way to go.

4 Chain is a must, so we have:

4 Chain
4 Chalice
3 Grudge/Ray

is firestorm the best as the last 4 slots? Why no Leyline any more?

[sunshine]

Is 4 Chain still a must? Ichorid's popularity has dropped enough that few people are still packing Leyline. The last couple times I played Ichorid in a large event I boarded in Chain exactly zero times. This is my current board, which is subject to change:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Unmask (3 MB)

Chalice, Unmask and Thoughtseize preemptively stop Crypt on the play and are also good against storm based combo which is on the rise. Thoughtseize is a new addition and is still being tested testing.

[GoldenCid]

In my opinion chain of vapor is the most versatile sideboard card. It deals with leyline, tormod, EE, pernicious deed, propaganda / moat cards, meddling mage, gaddock teeg, etc, etc, etc

[bum_man]

Is 4 Chain still a must? Ichorid's popularity has dropped enough that few people are still packing Leyline. The last couple times I played Ichorid in a large event I boarded in Chain exactly zero times. This is my current board, which is subject to change:

4 Pithing Needle
4 Firestorm
3 Thoughtseize
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Unmask (3 MB)

Chalice, Unmask and Thoughtseize preemptively stop Crypt on the play and are also good against storm based combo which is on the rise. Thoughtseize is a new addition and is still being tested testing.

Chain of vapor isn't really just for leyline. It's ichorid's answer to all permanent-type disruption like prison effects (magus of the tabernacle, suppresion field etc) and propaganda effects that effectively prevents you from winning at the turn you "go off." Your current board has unmask as a proactive answer to such disruption cards. The problem is, to use unmask you must pitch a potential combo piece, either P imp, S imp, G thug, Ichorid, or BfB. This may potentially slow your combo down, which in return could give your opponent time to cast other disruption cards.

With your board I assume the metagame where you play in have a lot combo, creature and spell-based hose cards, crypts and relics, and not enough prison-type decks. In that case, chain of vapor isn't really that useful.

I still believe it should be an auto-include in any ichorid's sideboard because the deck should always have a reactive answer to prison-based disruption, something that Ichorid has a hard time playing through. Maybe not a 4-of but at least 2-3 just in case.

[bum_man]

So what do Ichorid Sideboards look like these days?

I played back when it was:

4 Leyline
4 Chain
4 Needle/Chalice
2/1 Ray
1/2 Grudge

I see Firestorm has been added, what about Devastating Dreams? Hits lands as well at the cost of R, is it worth it?

Needle seems better (hits both Relice, and Crypt), but also Chalice helps the storm match-up. I would think Chalice is the way to go.

4 Chain is a must, so we have:

4 Chain
4 Chalice
3 Grudge/Ray

is firestorm the best as the last 4 slots? Why no Leyline any more?

In my opinion, 4 chalice and 4 needle are auto-includes, needle handles relics, crypts, wretches, fanatics as well as other ability based disruption. Chalice helps stop crypts and slow down combo that are faster. It can also be sometimes cast at 1 to stop extirpate although not in favor by most players, it can still stop you from combo-ing off.

Leyline is not needed anymore because losing BfBs to dying creatures is something the deck can play around. the 4 slots being occupied by leyline can be used for other more useful cards that could help the deck answer more pressing problems like propaganda effects or in the case of firestorm creature based disruption like jailers, wretches and teeg. the slots being occupied by firestorm in most decks are mainly due to their metagames. I think these are the variable slots in the Ichorid sideboard.

[sunshine]

Postboard I would have 4 Unmask, 4 Cabal Therapy, and 3 Thoughtseize to stop everything you mentioned except Leyline (which I already said is not something I'm worried about in my meta). Honestly though, how many prison and Propaganda effects will you expect to see in a large tourney? I'll grant you that some Merfolk lists run Propaganda in their board but other than that it's just MUC and Stax both of which are not showing up in strong numbers. Merfolk is also not a strong presence in my meta. It's good to be prepared but I just see things like Moat and Magus of the Tabernacle as too rare to devote space to. CoV is versatile but all I'm saying is that Leyline was what made it necessary - I don't think it's necessary right now.

[bum_man]

Postboard I would have 4 Unmask, 4 Cabal Therapy, and 3 Thoughtseize to stop everything you mentioned except Leyline (which I already said is not something I'm worried about in my meta). Honestly though, how many prison and Propaganda effects will you expect to see in a large tourney? I'll grant you that some Merfolk lists run Propaganda in their board but other than that it's just MUC and Stax both of which are not showing up in strong numbers. Merfolk is also not a strong presence in my meta. It's good to be prepared but I just see things like Moat and Magus of the Tabernacle as too rare to devote space to. CoV is versatile but all I'm saying is that Leyline was what made it necessary - I don't think it's necessary right now.

Oh I see. Your metagame doesn't play enough permanent based disruption that can't be handled by firestorm and needle. Fair enough. Our metagame still has a number of prison-type decks that run propaganda effects which makes CoV somewhat a given sideboard card.

Question? Your sideboard looks tight. How is firestorm working for you? A number of colleagues advise against firestorm because it requires X legal targets to be playable. Just wanted to hear your thoughts on the card. I assume there are alot of teegs around?

Oh, and another thing. how are unmask and thoughtseize been? Doesn't it slow you down or something?

Just asking. Im currently working on my deck's sideboard and trying to pick out the right cards to run.

[sunshine]

@bum_man: I am very happy with Firestorm, most of these reasons have probably been stated before but here goes. Firestorm is great against Goblins and other swarm decks for obvious reasons, you will usually not be at a loss for targets in these MUs. In any MU you will always have at least two targets, this provides you with some reach as well as an uncounterable discard outlet, which is certainly relevant. When you want to use Firestorm as targeted removal the common targets are things like Teeg, Mage, Magus, Jailer, Samurai, guys with toughness <=2 -- at worst you get to kill the creature and shock your opponent. To answer your question there are plenty of hate bears in my meta which Firestorm answers but the card shines in MUs where you need to be the control.

The Thoughtseizes are still being tested and I haven't formed any hard conclusions yet. They definitely slow me down, but they are intended to address MUs where I wont win a speed race (combo) and double as proactive protection when I want it (decks with permanent based hate or things like Faerie Macabre). Also, like Cabal Therapy, they can serve as a discard outlet if I'm desperate. I am happy with Unmask for the time being.

[GoldenCid]

How is firestorm working for you? A number of colleagues advise against firestorm because it requires X legal targets to be playable. Just wanted to hear your thoughts on the card. I assume there are alot of teegs around?


Firestorm
Instant, R
As an additional cost to play Firestorm, discard X cards.
Firestorm deals X damage to each of X target creatures and/or players.

This card is great! But i don't use it for teeg or meddling mage but fanatics, spark elemental, sakura stuff. Due to 1 creature a 1 player are diferent targets you can deal with mage and teeg in addition to deal 2 (2 discarded cards) damage to your opponent. Besisdes, now you have 2 dredgers in yard!!

[bum_man]

@bum_man: I am very happy with Firestorm, most of these reasons have probably been stated before but here goes. Firestorm is great against Goblins and other swarm decks for obvious reasons, you will usually not be at a loss for targets in these MUs. In any MU you will always have at least two targets, this provides you with some reach as well as an uncounterable discard outlet, which is certainly relevant. When you want to use Firestorm as targeted removal the common targets are things like Teeg, Mage, Magus, Jailer, Samurai, guys with toughness <=2 -- at worst you get to kill the creature and shock your opponent. To answer your question there are plenty of hate bears in my meta which Firestorm answers but the card shines in MUs where you need to be the control.

The Thoughtseizes are still being tested and I haven't formed any hard conclusions yet. They definitely slow me down, but they are intended to address MUs where I wont win a speed race (combo) and double as proactive protection when I want it (decks with permanent based hate or things like Faerie Macabre). Also, like Cabal Therapy, they can serve as a discard outlet if I'm desperate. I am happy with Unmask for the time being.

Okey thanks I'll continue testing firestorm. I already play darkblasts mainboard to handle early fanatics or jailers. I thought that would be enough as means for the deck to get rid of pesky creatures. Chances are i think i'll be playing around 2-3 in the sideboard.

[alderon666]

Hell, even against Chalice of the Void for 1 it's decent. You don't get to kill anything, but you get to discard.

Great against Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon also.

[Joe_C]

DTB Again!!!:eek: :eek:

Gotta start playing this again..:laugh:

[Charlatan]

Ohhhrrrayyy

DTW!!!

One question:
what can icho does against a first turn trinisphere?
Hold 8 cards in hand to drop 1?

Is there any way to handle with it?

Is right to cut caredul study?

Ty!

[Joe_C]

Ohhhrrrayyy

DTW!!!

One question:
what can icho does against a first turn trinisphere?
Hold 8 cards in hand to drop 1?

Is there any way to handle with it?

Is right to cut caredul study?

Ty!


Yes you can cut study. I wasnt running it, in favor of running 3 maindeck unmask. Against turn 1 trini(assuming you are on the draw) just get to 8 cards and discard and start dredging hoping to get ichorids and moebas. Thats pretty much our only g1 defense

[SpikeyMikey]

From an Ichorid player's standpoint, which is scarier; having Bridge Extirpated or having Dread Return Extirpated? I would think Bridge, but I'm not sure.

[Charlatan]

From an Ichorid player's standpoint, which is scarier; having Bridge Extirpated or having Dread Return Extirpated? I would think Bridge, but I'm not sure.

First of all, i think that a ichorid player's shouldn't be afraid of Extirpate, IMO this card is irrelevant against icho's deck.

but, answering your question, bridge is worst, because with out bridge, there is no reason to use dread return.

Ty!

[Muradin]

Well, if you call a 10/10+ regenerating Golgari Grave Troll no reason to use Dread Return once your bridges are extirpated, then you are right. You still can transform your Narcomoebas, Ichorids and Putrid Imps into real threats by using Dread Retun. It will not have the "I win" effect it has when you still have your bridges in your graveyard but still it is a very potent play I've made quite frequently in tournaments.

[Seriously]

did this deck actually do well somewhere in order to get moved back into this section ? or has it been moved back here cause of hype about it at GP chicago ? anyone know ?

[MSC]

A quick look here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=324856&postcount=26) will help :rolleyes:

[bum_man]

I wouldn't say that Dread Return would be useless. Without Bridge, Dread Return would just be a lot less game-ending. One big creature is relatively a hell of a lot easier to handle than a hasted mob of 3/3 zombies. It can still bring out a big-ass Grave-Troll that could also mean a world of hurt for your opponent. If you're scared of extirpate you can tune your deck in such a way that it can still win efficiently without bridges. Reveillark is a great example. It's been seeing some play in a number of Ichorid decks I've seen lately. Without Bridges, you can return Reveillark, sac it to therapy then bring back a Big Grave-Troll and FKZ to bash your opponent in the face now.

[sunshine]

Bummer, I was hoping this deck would keep a low profile for a couple more weeks. Oh well.

A Dread Returned Troll is a lot harder to deal with than people think, and Ichorids are not easy to deal with on their own. The game is far from over if you get your Bridges removed - especially if you have access to EWitness for more gas.

[thefreakaccident]

Bummer, I was hoping this deck would keep a low profile for a couple more weeks. Oh well.

A Dread Returned Troll is a lot harder to deal with than people think, and Ichorids are not easy to deal with on their own. The game is far from over if you get your Bridges removed - especially if you have access to EWitness for more gas.

I have won a lot of games against ichorid by simply having swords/humilities and extirpate with landstill... I think you guys are underestimating how good extirpate is against this deck (shutting down a whole 1/3 of all of your options with one card is amazing).

[Kuma]

Having either your Bridges or Ichorids Extirpated sucks, but it hardly prevents you from winning. Having both Extirpated makes it nearly impossible to win.

There are numerous better options against Ichorid than Extirpate. Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain.

If you're worried about Ichorid, pack the above cards instead of Extirpate.

[HammafistRoob]

Having either your Bridges or Ichorids Extirpated sucks, but it hardly prevents you from winning. Having both Extirpated makes it nearly impossible to win.

There are numerous better options against Ichorid than Extirpate. Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain.

If you're worried about Ichorid, pack the above cards instead of Extirpate.

But dude the great things about Extirpate are that 1) It's a fucking 1 mana Instant. And 2) Ichorid can't answer it.

I mean they can kill/needle the other cards you mentioned with no problem. Your pretty much saying that winning the game for 2 black mana is a bad plan, when it's actually a very good one.

[sauce]

Having either your Bridges or Ichorids Extirpated sucks, but it hardly prevents you from winning. Having both Extirpated makes it nearly impossible to win.

There are numerous better options against Ichorid than Extirpate. Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Leyline of the Void, Samurai of the Pale Curtain.

If you're worried about Ichorid, pack the above cards instead of Extirpate.

dont forget yixlid jailer.

[Kuma]

But dude the great things about Extirpate are that 1) It's a fucking 1 mana Instant.

Tormod's Crypt is a fucking zero mana Artifact. What's your point?


And 2) Ichorid can't answer it.

Ichorid doesn't have to. Also, Cabal Therapy/Unmask.


Your pretty much saying that winning the game for 2 black mana is a bad plan, when it's actually a very good one.

Two black mana and two of the same card. I'd rather run any of the hate cards I mentioned before over Extirpate because I don't need two of them for it to be a huge setback. Also, two Tormod's Crypts cost zero mana.


dont forget yixlid jailer.

Yeah, he's good too, but he's the narrowest of the hate pieces. After Extirpate, that is, since at least Jailer is a bomb in one matchup.

[sunshine]

I have won a lot of games against ichorid by simply having swords/humilities and extirpate with landstill... I think you guys are underestimating how good extirpate is against this deck (shutting down a whole 1/3 of all of your options with one card is amazing).

I promise you that extirpate is the hate card I am least unhappy to see every time - I would always rather have my opponent side in Pates over LLotV or Crypts. Obviously every card that says something along the lines of "remove X cards in your opponents graveyard from the game" has the potential to be bad for us, Extirpate being no exception, that doesn't mean all of these cards are amazing.

[bum_man]

Extirpating something from a Dredge deck just potentially takes out just one means for it to win the game. Unlike Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon and other GY hate which stops the deck from running in general. Although Ichorid doesn't necessarily have an answer for extirpate aside from its discard effects, the deck could potentially gain significant board advantage after an extirpate to still win the game.

[e1567]

I agree extripate is good against ichorid but if you only see one extripate you will only remove their bridges and if you are running black it is unlikely that you are also running stp which means a large cave troll will ruin you. I played ichorid at GP Chicago and did very well with it, but then again I have been playing with Ichorid since it became a deck in legacy(I placed 20th).

During the day I only saw extripate once and they made the decesion to mulligan down to it and then got wrecked by 3 ichi's and a 12/12 cave troll(he was playing some black deck). I have to say what got me the most was the split between relics and tormods that did the most damage to me during the day, I eventually learned to hold back the needles until I saw a cabal......

Did anyone else make it to day two with ichi I saw one other guy but I didn't get a chance to talk to him?

[Charlatan]

to: e1567 - Could you post your entire list?

ty

[Mayk0l]

Don't disregard it completely, Extirpate can be quite annoying if properly timed.

[bum_man]

Don't disregard it completely, Extirpate can be quite annoying if properly timed.

Disregarding extirpate isn't really a good idea for any deck. It is quite annoying especially in multiples. It's just that playing around extirpate is exponentially easier that playing around leyline or wheel. Losing Dread Returns, Bridges or Grave-Trolls to extirpate are a pain, but isn't really impossible. Maybe unless you're up against Rock that can answer tokens and big creatures along with extirpates and leylines. That's a very depressing event, that happened to me in a tournament recently, it was nuts. :frown:

[sunshine]

@e1567: I didn't get a chance to go to Chicago, but I'm curious as to how many times you got Leyline dropped on you?

[Ozymandias]

The neice thing about playing vs Extirpate is that if your opponent doesn't have t1 hate, either a) You know you can Therapy away their extirpate or b) you probably just won.

I'm a little curious about how people board for combo. Here's my current SB:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Woodfall Primus

Sometimes I replace Leylines with Needles, if I feel more likely to encounter Relic than GY-dependant decks.

The question is whether your plan is to a) disrupt them heavily in the first couple turns and win with ichorids, or b) use whatver disruption you have to win off your own combo. For options a) do you board out your combo? For b) what do you shave? What decision to you use to make that.

[e1567]

I was lucky I didn't see a leyline all day, I saw black thresh at least twice but they ran relics against me not leyline's, for the most part I figured I wouldn't see much leyline I did think I would see much more of extripate but I only saw it once. I did see plenty of relics and tormods though. My list is pretty straight forward. I have tried most of the major builds and decided to use this version, during my testing session it did the best.

Lands
4 Cephalid coliseum
4 Gemstone mine
4 Underground Sea

4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomeaba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage

4 Careful Study
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Deep Analysis

4 Bridge From Below

Sideboard

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Cabal Therapy

I played plenty of threshold all day. I lost to 2 of the 3 Dreadstill decks I saw and I lost to a GRw Goyf sligh(bad draws).

Extripate should not be underestimated at all but most competent Ichorid players should use a cabal therapy as soon as possible to clear the way to use your bridges, this is how I deal with extripate but I will be honest and say it will not always work but in my experience with the deck it does.

[Misplayer]

How was 3 DR? Did you ever need the third? Did you ever wish it was Breakthrough/Therapy?

[e1567]

I really liked the 3rd dread return, there were a couple of games when I used all three. I generally side one of them out for my side board. I rarely wanted one of them to be a cabal I think 3 was a good call for the metagame and if I saw non black thresh or a control deck of the same caliber I put the 4th cabal in.

One thing I have noticed with my build is the 4 careful studies allowed me to dig when they resolved, a good example is in round 14 game 3 vs. merfolk a resolved careful study turn one got me a chalice of the void that stopped his two tormods in hand which allowed me to make the best play ever.....his next turn he played a relic(his first turn, yes he kept a hand of a tormods and a relic then drew another tormods) on my second turn I made 12 zombies and a 17/17 cave troll(sided out the flame-kin) and won on my third turn with no yard left(he reliced me).

All in all my gp performance showed me that my old pet deck can really come through in a large environment that was heavy with agro control.

[Ozymandias]

Did you ever wish that Careful Study was Unmask, or that you had SB firestorm/MD CoB?

[e1567]

@Ozymandias- I have never tested unmask, personally I think it is a little on the weak side since it removes a black card but I could definitely be wrong it does really help with therapy calls. If it wasn't such a dead card in the graveyard I would use it in an instant, but where as my blue enablers are useless in the grave when I see them in hand they allow me to win the game where as unmask just lets me protect myself a little. I would want to run it as a 3 or 4 of in the deck to actually see it in my opening hand and I would have absolutely no clue how to do that and keep the consistency and explosiveness my version has.

With firestorm I also have had no testing with it but since I am running the UB version and not the rainbow version I couldn't say. I like that it allows me to ditch cards to my grave and clear the way of creatures but it is a little more situational than careful study. Careful study allows me to ditch cards, replace dredge and dig for answers. Where as firestorm allows me to ditch cards and take out creatures(and then remove my bridges if I happen to ditch them).

Neither one of these cards grabbed me as extremely powerful and needed in the deck so I have not tested them, sorry for the lack of real input.

[Ozymandias]

Well, compared to your list, mine is +4 City of Brass, -4 Underground Sea, -2 Careful Study, -1 Gemstone Mine, +3 Unmask, -1 Golgari Thug, +1 Breakthrough, and -1 Dread Return, +1 Careful Study. I can see that Unmask is tied to 4 Therapy very stongly, but with ANT becoming a bigger part of the meta, it helps your chances a lot of the time. I think that Study is totally
a legit choice, but I think you would want to play 4 Breakthrough to maximize your extra self-discard.

Did you ever wish that you had another reanimation target to go with 3 DR, and which one? Woodfall Primus/Angel of Despair/Blazing Archon/Reveillark/Akroma/Inkwell/SSS?
How did Cephalid Sage work out for you? I know a lot of people prefer to use Eternal Witness/River Kelpie.

[andrew77]

I also took ichorid to chicago and got wrecked during the main event. I won a trial with it pretty much rolling over everyone and then just got trumped in every game during the main event. Here is a quick report...

GPT-
Round 1 I face affinity. He wins game 1 since I had kept a slower hand. I blow him out games 2 and 3.

Round 2 I face eva green. Game one I win. Game two he gets leyline. I careful study into a chain of vapor. Bounce it and win.

Round 3 I face threshold and win handily in 2 games.

Round 4 I face loam. Game one he gambles for glacial chasm but I am able to knock it out of his hand and kill him. Next game he drops explosives and finds a chasm. I seem to be in trouble since my angel of despair cant kill them both but I topdeck breakthrough and proceed to win.

Round 5 I face feldmen dredge. Feldmens list is a pile. His only chance is leyline so I win game 1. Game 2 he has double leyline. Game 3 I win turn 2. Wohoo for 3 byes

GP


Round 4- Playing against some survival/combo deck
I win game one then mull a mediocre hand in game 2 after my opponent mulls into what I think is a leyline. In the end I mull to oblivion and lose. In game 3 my turn one attempt to wins gets screwed by terrible dredges and he proceeds to win a few turns later while my dredges suck.

Round 5- I get paired against thresh.
Game one is a blowout for me. Game two I fight through double crypt to get one turn from the kill and he topdecks another crypt. Game 3 I mull to oblivion.

Round 6- I get paired against thresh and finally manage to win a round even though I mulled to oblivion one game.

Round 7- facing red death
This round is close as I mull 7 times during the games, but I am able to win in 3 games.

Round 8- I face thresh and mulligan 8 times during the match. My deck sucks

Round 9- I face some rock type deck and win game one handily. Game two we mull to 4. Game 3 I mull to 5 but keep a solid hand. He disrupts me with some techy creature that removes my 2 dredgers in resp to my breakthrough and proceeds to kill me.

Anyway the deck was very strong, I just mulliganed something like 30 times in 6 rounds. I went to 4 or fewer cards 5 times during the day and kept only 2 7 card hands.

[e1567]

@andrew77 - I am glad you did so well in the prelims, I'm sorry that you did not so hot in the main event. Is it possible we can see a deck list, I am personally not sold on an angel being a dread return target at all. I have tested it and I rather speed over it.

@Ozymandias - going down to 3 breakthroughs was a really hard choice and so was going down to 3 therapies. Going down to 3 breakthroughs was ultimately a meta choice. In my experience breakthrough is an all or nothing card. You either already have a graveyard and win or you need another spell to resolve in conjunction with breakthrough. I think there is nothing worse than having one land and casting breakthrough at 0 to just dump your hand for dredging. I see break through as cephalid coliseum 5-8. In my testing going all in on a single breakthrough(casting breakthrough then pooping LED) is a bad idea since a single force of will could wreck you. I knew I would see lots of agro control and wanted to maximize my threat density against said decks. So I went 4 careful studies, when they get forced thats fine, I normally had some sort of back up in my hand. Don't get me wrong breakthrough is a house I cannot count how many games I won during GP riding a well timed breakthrough but the decesion to go down one was what made my deck a little different and I think a little more consistent.

Speaking of consistency I wanted 3 dread returns to help that game one win like I said earlier I did use all 3 in at least 2 game ones during the GP. In those games I had a combination of bad dredges or they had main deck graveyard hate where I needed the third dread return to "steal" the win (my teammates words not mine).

With DR targets I have tested a few, river kelpie is amazing but I think it falls a little short of cephalid sage. Kelpie can get you more draws but that relies on other cards and doesn't let me discard any cards. I think I have ranted enough on the fact I don't like cards that rely on others(as a dredge player I am sure you know why). During the GP and my testing Sage was amazing.

I am unsure how well your dredge deck ran but my deck gold fishes a consistant turn 2 win(not sure how consistent I didn't keep track of percentages but I would say a little less than half of the time more if I am on the draw turn 1). During the GP I won at least 5 games on turn two and 3 of those were during game 1. I decided to make my deck go for speed over anything else. Also during games 2 and 3 I always left in 2 DR's and at least a flame kin or Sage (which one completely depended on the deck I was facing)

Sadly I didn't play a single ANT deck all day. I tested the match very hard since I thought I would see it a lot(I did but playing next to me not across). This match is all up in the air if I get turn one I can win it but if they go first I have to hope they get a bad hand because they will win on turn 2 most likely. Games 2 and 3 are a little better since I throw chalice at them and that helps to slow them down while my cabals can rip their hand. All in all I think the match is about 50/50. I did much better than that in my testing but none of my testing partners were amazing at the deck and it seemed a very luck based match but I didn't feel the need to change my main board to deal with it.

But the more I talk about unmask the more I would like to give it another try. I might draft up a decklist in a week or so and give it a try at my local tourny(since I have been doing so well with the deck I smell some extra graveyard hate heading my way so I plan on giving dredge a rest and play a few of my other pet decks)

[NecroYawgmoth]

Is it possible to cut DA and LED, but not increase the land count, like LED-less Ichoid?

and then add something like 2 Tireless Tribe & 4 Careful Study, or else...

I don't know, but everytime I play Ichorid, I board LED and DA for other cards, because I fear Relic/Crypt, and don't want to throw my hand in a LED and then my opponent removes my grave...

I really never liked DA, it wins so rarely, and you don't need it after an Breakthrough.

When LED is your only discard outlet for dredgers and you use it in the upkeep, you still can't use the mana for DA, because its a #*%$Sorcery

Here is my List:


4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine

4 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeaba
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Eternal Witness
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Firestorm
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Deep Analysis

///

4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask
3 Firestorm

thoughts???

btw: Inkwell Leviathan is the BEST random fattie imo, It can block Goyfs and Crushers, etc. safely, without dying (unlike SSS), and it can block the biggest creature in swarm-aggro decks without dying or survive the swarm-aggro (unlike E. Archangel), it has also Shroud, and is nearly unblockable because of Islandwalk, and 7 str is huge...
It was so often the random No-Brain Win, because the opponent nearly can't do anything against him...

YawG

[Parcher]

If you want to cut LED, I would recommend adding extra lands. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with boarding it out against decks bringing in Crypt or Relic; you almost always should. In your case, you bring in Unmask and/or Firestorm that can replace LED as a discard outlet. Unmask can facilitate the turn one win, and Firestorm can serve as a one-shot PImp by emptying your hand EOT if they have no hate in play. LED is still good post-board against decks without those two cards, and it can still allow a turn-one win if you play first game three.

With Witness, there are also a vast amount of plays you can make with LED that no amount of lands could reasonably do. It also makes Coliseum much better, and Deep Analysis is too good with LED not to use.

I would never run a "Finisher" creature main, since it's rarely needed Game one. While I agree that Leviathan is the cream of those right now, I wouldn't run him either. Control decks are running "Edict" effects now to deal with Progenitus, and I rarely side in big guys against Control anyway. The reason to have a fattie is for either decks that can outrace you (Burn, Storm Combo, Goblins), or decks that can easily remove your Bridges. Ancestor's Chosen puts you out of the range of Tendrils and Burn, and lets you outrace Goblins with just Ichorids. A lot of these decks can outrace Leviathan if he's all you have. Chosen also has the advantage of being mostly irrelevant if your opponent removes it. The lifegain will place them in a position where they can't race, or if they can you wouldn't have won anyway with a Leviathan.

[SuperBean]

Edited correctly**

This is my list that I've been playing for quite some time now with pretty good success, and a pretty solid number of turn 1 kills with it.

River Kelpie is amazing by the way.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass

4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Ichorid
2 Golgari Thug
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
1 River Kelpie

4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Bridge from Below

4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis



# 60

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Firestorm
1 Ray of Revelation


# 15

[NecroYawgmoth]

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with boarding it out against decks bringing in Crypt or Relic; you almost always should.

Yeah, but a lot of decks are maindecking Relics nowadays, because of that, I was thinking to cut LED, and without LED, the DAs are pretty useless...(so cut them, too)

...suggesting more lands seems fine, but the next best rainbow-land is Tarnished Citadel, and that land sucks IMO, and what would you suggest me in additon to more lands: Study or Street Wraith, or somethig else???

YawG

[Misplayer]

Yeah, but a lot of decks are maindecking Relics nowadays, because of that, I was thinking to cut LED, and without LED, the DAs are pretty useless...(so cut them, too)

...suggesting more lands seems fine, but the next best rainbow-land is Tarnished Citadel, and that land sucks IMO, and what would you suggest me in additon to more lands: Study or Street Wraith, or somethig else???

YawG

Isn't there a whole thread for this?

@Superbean

Your list looks super explosive. How much do you miss cards like Ichord #4 and Putrid Imp #4 when you can't get the "combo kill" or cards like DA when you're going off? Also, I count 62 cards, is that correct?

[Muradin]

I think Richard Feldman's list is a good starting point for LED-less Dredge. Why I am usually playing LED Ichorid I've recently switched to a version of the deck that is very similar to Feldman's list because I've been facing more and more decks like Merfolk playing quite some relics. What I especially like about 15 lands is that while Ancient Grudge is most of the time too expensive for LED dredge you can take in 4 Needles + a number of Grudges if you decide to add more lands to your list. Grudge has the advantage that it has to be countered twice in case they want to keep their Relic / Crypt in play and that it can also hit other problematic cards, such as Phyrexian Dreadnough, Umezawa's Jitte, Isochron Sceptre that do actually see play in my current local metagame.

And while the deck doesn't have 4 Ichorids you can neglect this weakness because while you are dredging with this build you can cast shitty dudes like Narcomoeba or Golgari Thug at the same time.

However sometimes you definitely will miss LED because Cephalid Coliseum is much weaker without it and you won't be able to race combo any more without it.

[Wereodile]

I played Ichorid during an event in Oshawa, my list was tuned to totally win first turn or turn around and lose really badly, I ran 4x Lotus Petal and 4x Chrome Mox, the turns where I landed were great but other then that it was shakey but hey you live and you learn. As I look at Superbeans list I like the 4 Petals on top of the land I may have to try this again.

I was running Hellkite Overlord as my "random fattie" and he was a house, but I I were to run another fattie it would be Woodfall Primus due to his sacrifice interactions. I do like that inkwell guy as well I may have to give him a whirl.

[SuperBean]

Sorry about that, I copied a list from deckcheck, and just edited it to my list last night at 7:00am when I still hadn't gone to bed yet.

I have re-edited the list that I posted above now with the correct cards, and it is a total of 60 cards, not 62.

[Parcher]

Yeah, but a lot of decks are maindecking Relics nowadays, because of that, I was thinking to cut LED, and without LED, the DAs are pretty useless...(so cut them, too)

...suggesting more lands seems fine, but the next best rainbow-land is Tarnished Citadel, and that land sucks IMO, and what would you suggest me in additon to more lands: Study or Street Wraith, or somethig else???

YawG

There's another thread with lots of suggestions for what to use instead of LED in the Established forums. Take whatever your read there with a grain of salt though, as none of the proposed lists have tournament-proven performance.

As far as maindecked Relics, it should hardly be a concern. There are only two decks I see with them. Either have Trinket Mage, which is far too slow considering any Game one you should have won by turn four. Or they're Merfolk, which even if it wasn't an awful deck, you should blow out if Relic is not a turn one play on-the-play.

[SuperBean]

As far as the 4x Putrid Imp, and the 4x Ichorid, the two cards seem to clog the deck as a four of, especially Ichorid.

If I ever have all four Ichorids in my graveyard I can never bring all four of them back, I was actually running Street Wraith for that reason. But cutting Street Wraith from the deck meant cutting back on Ichorid.

As far as Putrid Imp goes, he's only ever useful to me if I have a land in hand and some dredgers, if not then he's almost useless except for creatures to remove to Ichorid. I'd personally much rather see Deep Analysis and Lion's Eye Diamond then a land and Putrid Imp.

[e1567]

Thanks Parcher and Misplayer, if we can keep this thread to the LED Version that would be great. Personally I think the LED version is stronger. I do have the issue where I mulligan to oblivion every once in a while, this version is probably more inconsitent. I have gone down to 4 cards and I have still won games once I actually still won on turn 2. I just think the deck is very strong and can do very well in a thresh/counter top heavy meta.

Also I will under no circumstances bring the number of ichorids or putrid imps down to 3 in the main board. Having four allows you to gurantee you get one in your opening hand(in the case of imp) and they allow you to get to the magical number of 3 (ichorid). I do admit I do side out one ichorid and one putrid imp in most games but having them in the main game one allows you to have a very strong game.

@SuperBean do you have any reasons why we should use river kelpie. Personally I have been wanting to give it a shot but I am not so sure what role it facilitates so I do not know how to change my main board to suit it. I see you ran it along with sage and zealot, doesn't that seem a bit much. I was thinking of putting it in instead of the sage but I am not so sure it is much stronger because it relies on more cards.

@Parcher I agree completely about relic, it has not been a major problem for me it is a turn slower than tormods which really hurts it against us.

Oh on the side boarding issue at the GP Chicago I didn't take out all 4 of my led's once, I only took 2 of them out against dreadnought.dec. I find LED is really strong with breakthough and coliseum I rarely like having either cards without an LED. Also LED is great force of will bait.

Thats just my two cents. I really don't want to get in an argument about which version is better. I just don't like hearing all of this junk about how much better the non LED version is. I have not seen it put up any major numbers and the article flying around starcity proclaiming the LED version sucks just pisses me off (I have not actually read the article, I don't have a premium membership). Sorry I kinda ranted their, I got this question alot at the GP and just kept my mouth shut since I didn't know how well I was going to do and I didn't want to jinx my performance.

[SuperBean]

River Kelpie has been a champ for me since I've started playing it in the deck. It has amazing obvious synergy with Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, and Deep Analysis alone. Cabal Therapy being the best.

Also, when you end up sacrificing for whatever reason you have the benefit of persist. So you are getting zombies, and the creature back.

My experience with River Kelpie is that when he is Dread Returned you have pretty much won the game.

Another thing that I am toying with is playing an Eternal Witness over my Cephalid Sage to get back Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, or Careful Study.. I'm not sold on it yet, and I still have more testing to do with it, so we'll see. If any of you are playing Witness, you should let me know what you think of her in the deck.

[e1567]

So river kelpie has done well for you but you didn't tell me why you run it along with cephalid sage, don't they fill the same role. Also whenever I play sage that is generally game you really haven't told me why it is better, I mean if you have a build that ran 4 DR it would definitely be better but I am still not sold on it, and a STP will ruin your day if they save it for a kelpie.

I haven't ran E Witness, I like my DR targets to win me games where as witness gets me back a spell I have to cast to win, which to me seems like win more.

My list is somewhere on this page or the last for reference.

[SuperBean]

I run River Kelpie along with Sage out of personal preference, and I don't mind running into either of them as I'm playing.

I really think you should give him a fighting shot, and let us know what you think about him.

[Sek'Kuar]

I've been running Ichorid for a while now, and I find the River Kelpie to be a better pick over the Cephalid Sage because it is a reusable effect. The Sage is one and done, whereas the kelpie keeps going. Another nice bonus is the persist, in that you can sac it to dread return a FKZ and still have another 2/2 to swing with. Since I began running kelpie i have seen my number of turn one wins increase, and if i dont make turn one, its almost always turn two or three. I have also not had a problem hitting the single copy, either, for whatever reason. I also have found that Street Wraith is just too good to cut, but that's my personal preference. As to the mana base, I am only running 4 Cephalid Coliseum and 4 Gemstone Mines, NO Underground Sea. My deck only needs 1 mana maximum and then only on turn one if at all.

[Ozymandias]

That seems suboptimal. Effectively, you are mulliganing far more hands then you normally would. Your chance of drawing a land is 65% compared to 81 % for a 12 land build and 77% for 11 lands. Granted, those percentages are a little bit askew because they don't take into account LED/DA opening hands, but those can dredge at best 12 cards before they stop. Also, the fact that you have onyl 4 sources of black makes two of your most essential t1 plays/outlets, Putrid Imp and Cabal Therapy, practically uncastable.

[e1567]

I agree 8 lands is far too little, we don't have bazaar like the vintage players we really need at least 10 lands, personally I would not go less than 12 I would love to try to fit an 13th land but I cannot find the room.

I think I will start testing river kelpie over the sage and see what he can do personally I do not have extremely high hopes but it will be interesting.

Oh on the subject of Street Wraith, I utterly hated him in testing. When he was in my opening hand it was like having one less card in my hand. I never knew if my hand was a keeper. Granted I did have 1 DCI sanctioned turn one kill while they were in the deck but I felt they were extremely underwhelming. I found careful study to be much much stronger.

So on to another card choice what does everyone think of brainstorm in the deck? I think that it has potential but is ultimately weaker than careful study. Sure its biggest upside is putting those awful narcomeabas back on top of your library and it lets you draw a bunch but not allowing you to discard seems weak I have given it no testing and was curious if anyone has given it a shot?

[Nemcon]

I've playing this on and off for the past few months, with other combo, here's the things I've seen:

10-12 lands is whats needed definitely. 4 Coliseum seems right, and 8 Color Lands seems to be what I like the most.
As for kelpie, I've tested him a bit, I prefer sage most of the time, but sometimes I do wish I had the kelpie. However, Kelpie seems best when its able to be played off tokens into a return into him, then starting to dredge. It's not as good when you need a few more draws mid combo to finish dredging, which is where I prefer sage the most. Though the Persist does kind of seem nice. Right now I'm trying to decide what creatures would go best in the 2-3 singleton slots we have for return targets.

The current problem I have is mostly just figureing out the best sideboard, as I still haven't decided what I like the most.

Brainstorm - Hmm, I've not considered that, or if I did, I don't remember it. The good thing is its instant speed, and gets narcos back into the library, but the bad thing is that you don't get any discard.

[Sek'Kuar]

To be perfectly honest, I have only flashbacked cabal therapy, and I'm considering cutting the PImps for something else, the question being what. my T1 usually consists of LED, flashbacked Deep Anal and Cephalid Coliseum with huge dredges and sometimes a win, and if not, then a set up for a win on T2. Honestly I could care less about percentages, I prefer seeing results, and my build performs fairly well.

[e1567]

Well with an attitude like that we can't really help. So to back up your claims what is your testing like? Do you often run into a force of will on your LED since it does seem like you rely on it much more than if you ran 12 lands or so. Also could we see a list I am not sure you have posted one?

On a completely different note how does everyone feel about stiflenought.dec vs. ichorid. Personally I think it is a bad match up but I am curious about everyone else. I didn't test against it as much as I would have liked to but 2 of my 3 loses were against the deck at the GP.

[Parcher]

I have tested against StifleNaught quite a bit, and I agree that it is an even-to-slightly unfavorable match up. First, they have the cheap disruption of Daze and Force, backed up by Wasteland to slow you, and Stifle for an early Coliseum.

That by itself is a joke, but then they use the time bought from early disruption to use Trinket Mage. Also kind of slow though.

The two biggest problems are Dreadnought and Top. Top can protect their Trinket Mage from discard until they can cast it, and does similarly with Dreadnought. And the only way to beat Dreadnought is to race.

The best strategy I've found is early discard. Unmask is key. First turn, you want to take Top if possible since it can null later discard. You then blind Therapy, in order(simply due to casting costs): Dreadnought, Stifle, Mage. Dreadnought is first, since even though they may only run two-three of them, if you miss on a Stifle/Trickbind call, you lose. Also because Dreadnought can randomly screw you on his own if you Dredge multiple Bridges early, and can't finish them on your turn.

Post-board, you basically sit on Grudge if you run it; since they side out Counterbalance, they're cold to it. Follow previous gameplan with an extra eye toward Crypt/Relic. You can't really slow-Dredge though, so if they don't have Top, and you've seen their hand, you sometimes have to chance going all-in and hoping they don't blind rip off the top. Otherwise they get too much time to assemble and protect a "Naught.

[Nemcon]

The main issue I've been having now is while testing a lot, I've really been having issues working on what I really want to see in my board and board in.
I've been using Chalice less and less, and Chain of Vapor more and more.

I know I want in my board:
4 Firestorm
4 Chain of Vapor

and I don't know what else. Needles, Grudges, Singleton DR targets?

I've also been having trouble guessing what hate a certain deck will board in. A lot of time I've been expecting like a leyline or something, and get destroyed by a crypt. Is there a good way to tell?

[Ozymandias]

4 Needle is practically a necessity to deal with Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's crypt.

In general, 4 Chain of Vapor and 4 Pithing Needle should come in if you are unsure of what to board out. -4 LED, -2 DA, -1 Cephalid Sage -1 whatever is generally workable.

Also, decks that run Leyline will generally have a way to cast it. Not always, but a lot of the time.

[Nemcon]

I guess my main concern is getting rid of chalice all together. Like, I'm thinking about going the board as
4 Needle
4 Chain
4 Firestorm
and a few more things that I'm not sure of. But I dont see chalice room there

[Ozymandias]

Firestorm/Chalice is the real meta call here. The question is whether or not you want to deal with combo/deal better w/crypt, or deal with troublesome creatures. Personally, I run Lelyline in that spot a lot.

[Parcher]

Firestorm is broken beyond even my full comprehension. I still find new uses for it. We're actually testing running 1-3 main deck now. Never run less than four.

Chain is as good as Needle on Crypt/Relic against any non-Blue deck, and is also needed against Leyline, Jailer, and random troublesome permanents. For instance, it is sick against the previously mentioned Dreadstill since not only can it bounce Relic EOT, you can get rid of Dreadnought as well. Run at least three.

I agree that Chalice doesn't really fit right now. The combination of Relic and Crypt makes it too risky. I'd only cut it if you have access to a full set of Unmask, or see no Combo though.

Needle has the same problem though. Since you can rarely be 100% sure whether certain decks will side Needle or Relic, you can blow yourself out by naming the wrong one. I've been trying more Grudges since I side out LED against these decks anyway. The troubles with this plan come against fast Aggro decks that get a good hand and hate. You just can't slow-roll and force them to bust the Crypt/Relic if they have considerably more pressure than you. I'm not certain on this yet.

I still run Wispmare against Leyline or other troublesome enchantments. So few decks run Leyline now that it's not really needed, but it is the one card you can't really beat if they get it pre-game. I'm not willing to risk it, but that's just me.

Leyline is shit in this deck. The only match there aren't better options for is the mirror. And even then, if you mull to it, and they have the answer, you still lose.

[Nemcon]

I'm definitely keeping Firestorm, I know how insane it is. I just wanted ot make sure before I cut the chalices in the board.

Right now I'm looking at
4 Chain
4 Needle
4 Firestorm
1 Unmask ( I run 3 MD, I love it)

I may put in a ray or grudge as one of hte other two slots, is Ancestor's Chosen still good? I know that used to be a card ran against aggro in the board.

[Ozymandias]

Like I said, it's a meta choice. There are enough decks in my meta that are GY-dependant that I have them in there. Firestorm could be in there next week.

Personally, I like a DR target in the board. Angel of Despair or Woodfall Primus are both good choices.

[Nemcon]

I've been testing this deck recently, in both goldfishing and other players, and I just can't seem to get this right and consistent. I think I'm missing one of the basics? I keep trying, and I never seem to be able to have enough mana to go off, or I get stuck forcing myself to play a breakthrough and lose my hand because its the only draw spell I have, and then fizzle or something.

I haven't played this enough in Legacy, I've played months before with this in extended, but did I just forget something over the past few months?

Essentially, we want to do this, right?
1. Get a discard source.
2. Get Dredgers in the yard, while clearing the way using Unmask/Therapy
3. Draw and dredge half the deck
4. Get narcs, etc, and either a whole army of zombies, or a huge guy through DR and win.

Am I doing this wrong by pushing the unmasks/therapys so early? should I be playing them after I dredge? Am I screwing myself over by dredging all of my draws when I sometimes should try and draw into another draw spell? Am I just trying to combo off too early? I basically start dredging for my turn draw as soon as I get anyone in the yard, trying to get 1-2 more in there to ensure I have enough to play a large draw spell for the win. Should I try to get more lands when I do this? Am I just having horrible draws?

[Parcher]

This is really difficult to pin down due to the vagaries in the question, and the individual games. The best advice that I can give is, 1) Remember that both Unmask and Therapy count as discard outlets for you. If you have a draw spell or Coliseum, it's fine to keep a hand with them as your outlet. And 2) When in doubt, mulligan. Seriously, like a lot. No.....more than that. Going to five and winning easily is not uncommon. This deck mulligans better than any other. Ever. Take advantage of that.

A good general rule is this; there are four key card type you want in your opening hand: Discard outlet, Dredger, Mana, and Draw. Again, in most cases, if you don't have at least three of these four things in your opener in some form, mulligan. Once you get used to which of these hands you can and cannot keep, play or draw, against each deck, consistency will come.

[GoldenCid]

I think that this a another good point to make a sideboarding rules summary, don't you think?

I think Parcher is the most qualificated to make us this favour concerning if we play against combo, goblins, MUC, etc. So please...could you??

If it's helpfull i post my side:

3 Unmask
4 Chain of vapor
4 Pithing needle
4 Firestorm.

By the way...my main deck is just like yours but with careful study instead of unmask.

Thx!!

[Nemcon]

I think that this a another good point to make a sideboarding rules summary, don't you think?

I think Parcher is the most qualificated to make us this favour concerning if we play against combo, goblins, MUC, etc. So please...could you??

If it's helpfull i post my side:

3 Unmask
4 Chain of vapor
4 Pithing needle
4 Firestorm.

By the way...my main deck is just like yours but with careful study instead of unmask.

Thx!!

What are you running in place of the unamsks in the main?

[GoldenCid]

What are you running in place of the unamsks in the main?

Careful study.

[bum_man]

Careful study.

The sb plan depends on how many slots are available. You can either go with the slow dredge ditching up to 8 slots (-4LED, -2DA, -1 DR, -1Sage or any card that has its effect) or you can go the more explosive plan that leaves the LED engine intact (-3 Study, -1DR, -1Sage, etc.).

Against decks you usually need to race like goblins, aggro, red, or opposing combo, I'd go for the plan with the LED engine. Against decks that you are relatively faster than, like blue decks. The slow dredge is a better plan against them since pulling of the combo would be difficult against permissions.

What are the numbers of the mentioned cards in your maindeck?

[GoldenCid]

What do you think on cutting 3 careful study and 1 DR for 4 Street wraith??
My list would run just 2 DR but with more food for ichorid. Do you think it worth??

[e1567]

You know I have never thought of taking the LED/DA package out for side board cards. I normally take a DR one of its targets, an imp and a dredger(i play 11). I think it is an interesting idea to take it out but you would have to go against a slower deck. In my experience once LED hits the board your generally win and even with the thinned out engine LED helps you hit home. I might have to try to take the LED package out sometime but I am not fully sure this is the best idea. We kinda need that explosiveness we don't have the proper configuration that the LEDless version has to still do well without the LED, my guess that it would slow us down by a full turn or two.

Also I will never side out careful studies they help you find your anti hate and this is fan freakingtastic. If I smell leyline I board in 5 things if I see blue along side i bring in 7 and then taking out LED package is a necessity.

@GoldenCid - Personally SW is garbage. I normally used him as ichy food and that was it. I think I already said this recently but in most cases I saw SW as a blank card in my hand, I had trouble deciding if my hand was a keeper. I also found few instances were his uncounterable draw was amazing. But power to you if you can get it to work with the right deck config.

@Parcher - Could you tell me what you would take out of the main board for firestorm and would quick aggro(goblins) be the only reason to side it in. I can see it good at discarding and clearing the board but that would also get rid of bridges and would never want to discard bridges to it. So basically my big question is why is firestorm the shit what role does it fill better than the other cards we have?

[bum_man]

@GoldenCid - I'd have to agree with e1567. Street Wraith is an interesting card. it can give rise to very insane turn 1 plays for Dredge. But its usefulness as a combo component exponentially gets lower as the game goes on. Most of the time it is just gonna be ichorid fodder. It can shine during games where you can't get the combo together through permissions thus you go for the ichorid game plan. Careful Study is just better than wraith over-all. It digs more, it acts as a mini-breakthrough, and it also discards. It makes combo-ing out more stable. Plus, Dredge has more than enough ichorid fodder to finish the game-off as a last resort. Its a more stable and more consistent combo finish vs an explosive turn 1-2 and better late-game ichorid rush. Do try to test it out and post your results here.

@e1567 - Siding-out the LED engine usually just happens like you said when you have to handle multiple types of hate thus more sb cards are boarded-in. Explosiveness is crucial, alot of times i saw the deck just chain the hate then just win. That deck didn't run studies so it has 4 automatic open slots. It bends over to force though @_@

[GoldenCid]

Do try to test it out and post your results here.


I will.

A brief review about Street wraith and Careful study ( + and - symbols are use strictily for comparisson between this 2 cards).

SW

-Mana free draw. (+)
-Black creature to feed ichorid. (+)
-Always useful in graveyard
- Small T1 combo engine: Land --> Putrid ---> Discard a dredger ----> Free dredge with SW. (+)
- Not countereable but stifeable. (Equlibrated tending to +)
- No discard outlet (-)
- Digs just 1 card (-)
- Free autoshock (-)

Careful Study

-1 mana requirement (-)
-Almost useless in graveyard (just retriable with EW but breakthrough is better in this point) (-)
-Discard outlet (+)
- Digs 2 cards (+)
- Not stifeable but countereable (Equilibrated tending to -)

And...by the way. What do you use against rock post side?? I have serious problems with that.

[e1567]

@Goldencid - I generally hate the positive and negative list, especially when it seems the person is a bit biased. First of all according to your list street wraith does have more positive points than careful study but careful study fills 2 vital roles where as SW really only fill the icky food strategy, on a minor note it does help facilitate the turn one win but if this is the case you might only have one discard outlet(i normally did in testing) and if that one outlet got forced you were fucked.

Simply because careful study fills two vital roles and does it for a simply blue mana, which all of your lands provide, I think it is much stronger. I have yet to test unmask in the careful study spots but I have a feeling that careful study is here to stay.

I could be wrong firestorm might just be stronger I dont know but I know SW is one of the weaker choices.

Back when myself and Baneoftheliving were discussing deck construction we both tried SW and found it weak and that was over a year ago. I have already done a lot of testing with it I played with it for about 2 months. Here is the list I tried out, also with the same list tried -1 ich +1 DR, different time -1 SW -1 Golgari Thug ,+1 DA + 1 DR and a couple of different config but still couldn't get the SW to play well with the rest of the deck. Also note I am in a very have control, aggro control environment, which is why I was so well prepared for GP Chicago.

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone mine
4 Cephalie colisium

4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

4 LED
2 Deep analysis

4 Putrid Imp
4 Break Through
3 Street wraith

4 Cabal Therapy

1 Flame Kin
1 Cephalid Sage
2 Dread Return

4 Ichorid
4 Narcomeaba
4 Bridges from below

Again the above list is over a year old and I have dismissed it so please do not go ahead and critique it too heavily.

[alderon666]

Dregdge is a car that has to reach 88mph to win. Careful study gets it to 50mph right out of the blue while Street Wraith only gives it a small boost after it's already going.

It's just differente cards, you can't make a direct comparison other than games won/lost with each list.

My vote is on Careful Study, this deck is good but it's more fragile than most people like to think. It has a lot of cards that do nothing on your hand (Bridge from Below) and when you mull to 6 and your only discard outlet gets countered and you're in a very sticky situation. The more possibilities of get to put that car in motion the better, LED + Deep Analysis does that without the need of lands, that's why it's so good.

[GoldenCid]

Yeah...it could be. I've tested the deck back with careful study and it convinced me fairly more than SW. However i think that i'll play with a 12 lands mana base intead of 11. I'll cut 1 DR and add the 4th gemstome mine to make the opening hand stabilier and to reduce the mulligan number.

[Parcher]

@Parcher - Could you tell me what you would take out of the main board for firestorm and would quick aggro(goblins) be the only reason to side it in. I can see it good at discarding and clearing the board but that would also get rid of bridges and would never want to discard bridges to it. So basically my big question is why is firestorm the shit what roll does it fill better than the other cards we have?

If you mean what do I side out for Firestorm, it would depend on which deck I am playing against. For example, against the aforementioned Goblins, I side out 2 LED, 2 DA, 1 FKZ, and 4 Unmask for 4 Firestorm, 1 Ancestor's Chosen and 4 Needle on the draw. The fact that it removes Bridges is completely irrelevant against Goblins, since they have functionally infinite ways to do this already. While Firestorm has multiple uses against most decks, against Goblins for instance, clearing the board is enough to win by itself. I've also burned out multiple Goblins players by using it as direct damage. I don't quite understand what rolling shit has to do with anything.

[Ozymandias]

The sexy thing about Firestorm is that it solves your big problem with aggro decks-buying time to beat them to death with ichorids/dr dudes-in an elegant way, because it's low costing and allows you to discard whatver you want, and so you can board out stuff without going below a critical mass of outlets for discard. Then there's the gravy, like the fact that it works around Blood Moon, or that you will sometimes catch an AdN/Elves player with their pants down or the like.

[bum_man]

I will.

A brief review about Street wraith and Careful study ( + and - symbols are use strictily for comparisson between this 2 cards).

SW

-Mana free draw. (+)
-Black creature to feed ichorid. (+)
-Always useful in graveyard
- Small T1 combo engine: Land --> Putrid ---> Discard a dredger ----> Free dredge with SW. (+)
- Not countereable but stifeable. (Equlibrated tending to +)
- No discard outlet (-)
- Digs just 1 card (-)
- Free autoshock (-)

Careful Study

-1 mana requirement (-)
-Almost useless in graveyard (just retriable with EW but breakthrough is better in this point) (-)
-Discard outlet (+)
- Digs 2 cards (+)
- Not stifeable but countereable (Equilibrated tending to -)

Careful Study being counterable isn't such a negative. I find it more of a positive because it attracts counters that shoud've been for an imp, a therapy, a return, and sometimes you catch them off-guard, even a breakthrough. I just has a multitude of uses that all of which just makes the deck better.


And...by the way. What do you use against rock post side?? I have serious problems with that.

Rock for me is a very difficult match-up. Most rocks usually have Deed maindeck and Leyline or Wheel of Sun and Moon in the mainboard. 4 Chain of Vapor is a must in game 2. Not being able to handle any of those two early on is practically game over. Chain also lets you see what stuff your opponent sided-in giving you a clue to what which pinpoint answers to you need to replace the chains, for game 3 if you get there of decide to change it. Some rock also run jailers and extirpates. Extirpates you can live through, you'd rather see that over leyline or wheel any day. Although it can wreck you at times when they take out the right cards, you just therapy that away. As for jailer, chain again is an option, just chain EOT, then win. Otherwise, you can bring-in either firestorm or contagion to deal with him. I recommend just siding-in Chains first as an answer all for what your opponent may bring in. You'd have real problems if your opponents sided-in a combination of extirpate, leyline, wheel and jailer. Chain would be great in that, it's just that the variety in the hate maybe too overwhelming for you

[GoldenCid]

I recommend just siding-in Chains first as an answer all for what your opponent may bring in.

Maybe needle is useful too...




1 Ancestor's Chosen

Are you running ancestor's?? I thought you don't. Please show me your SB list.

[bum_man]

Maybe needle is useful too...

Yes needle is an option. But for me, id rather have answers for them if they have leyline or wheel or jailer. I don't mind having deeds in play because i can always return a troll with a zealot. Im more worried about leyline etc. because they flat-out stop your deck from functioning. I'd rather win in a difficult fashion rather not having a chance to win at all. Needles are always good but they only stop deed. There are alot more dangerous threats that you should look out for apart for that is answerable by Chain of Vapor over Needle. You can put in both but the problem is you don't have a lot of slots open. You can't take out many combo pieces to thin the combo-out because rock decks have surprisingly fast clocks. You still need to race them at some point. Needles are good in the match-up but other cards can be better against this match-up.

[e1567]

If you mean what do I side out for Firestorm, it would depend on which deck I am playing against. For example, against the aforementioned Goblins, I side out 2 LED, 2 DA, 1 FKZ, and 4 Unmask for 4 Firestorm, 1 Ancestor's Chosen and 4 Needle on the draw. The fact that it removes Bridges is completely irrelevant against Goblins, since they have functionally infinite ways to do this already. While Firestorm has multiple uses against most decks, against Goblins for instance, clearing the board is enough to win by itself. I've also burned out multiple Goblins players by using it as direct damage. I don't quite understand what rolling shit has to do with anything.

I edited the my post I meant "What role does firestorm fulfill"

I am surprised that you put unmask in what will that do if they have tormod's(granted if you lose the first game it will be good but not so if you win), the goblin players around me actually still run leyline for the thresh matchup and myself.

I don't understand why you say they have infinite ways to remove our bridges main board they have fanatic side they have the normal stuff.

I would never take out the LED and DA package against them you still need to race them. Firestorm might help but goblins to have a very good back up plan of killing our rainbow sources as soon as possible. In my experience I do rather well against goblins in the first match but have trouble when the hate shows up. Since they have the hate but can still potentially win on turn 3.

I might try your strategy but I find taking LED out makes this deck much weaker(even if it is not in opening hand having careful study really helps finding it). What does your side look like.

In order to try firestorm I am thinking of

4 Pithing needle
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Firestorm
4 Unmask(I also want to give this a shot don't know if I should wait for another test to try it out)

Old side
4 Pithing needle
4 Chalice of the void
4 Chain of vapor
2 echoing truth
1 cabal therapy

I was using the list I used at the GP and that had no city and 4 seas.

[Parcher]

I am surprised that you put unmask in what will that do if they have tormod's(granted if you lose the first game it will be good but not so if you win), the goblin players around me actually still run leyline for the thresh matchup and myself.

I clearly stated that Unmask was among the cards removed on the draw in Game 2 against Goblins. It may come back in Game 3 if on the play, depending on their build.


I don't understand why you say they have infinite ways to remove our bridges main board they have fanatic side they have the normal stuff.

Most Goblins builds run four Fanatics, at least two Siege-Gang, and at least three Warren's Weirding. A good amount still have access to Prospector, and most will have Sharpshooter main or side. All remove bridges, as will any regular blocks. In addition, an active Sharpshooter is unbeatable without removal since he will both remove your Bridges and kill your Ichorids every turn.


I would never take out the LED and DA package against them you still need to race them. Firestorm might help but goblins to have a very good back up plan of killing our rainbow sources as soon as possible. In my experience I do rather well against goblins in the first match but have trouble when the hate shows up. Since they have the hate but can still potentially win on turn 3.

Ichorids can easily race Goblins, even without Bridge tokens; it is an awful deck defensively. Firestorm facilitates this. I literally haven't lost to the deck but once in a tournament in the past year. And that was against Turpyn running a set of Fanatics and Prospectors main along with a Sharpshooter, with Crypts and a second Sharpshooter in the side. Firestorm in conjunction with Witness and Chosen makes the match easy most often. If they open with the Turn three win+Graveyard hate....oh well. No deck deserves that treatment better than Ichorid.

My sideboard now is:

2-4 Firestorm (testing 1-2 main)
3-4 Chain of Vapor
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
4-6 flex slots

I wish I could be more specific, but Needle, Chalice, Unmask, extra land, Ancient Grudge, and a couple of cards I'm keeping under wraps are floating through at the moment. The ones mentioned never change though.

[GoldenCid]

My actual Side is:

3 Unmask
4 Pithing needle
4 Firestorm
4 Chian of vapor

Running a maindeck similar to yours with 3 careful study instead of unmask.
I'd like to found a place for chosen, because it makes me feel confortable against some matchs. I'm seriously considering in running 3 unmask maindeck cutting the mentioned careful study. My trouble with unmask is the election of the black card to remove with it. In my actual build with 2 DR, i think that this card can't be removed anymore. Maybe if i run unmask (a manaless card), may be go back to the 11 lands mana base and the 3rd DR could be usefull, couldn`t it?
On the other hand i win 3 slots for sideboard, being one for the ancestor and 2 flex maybe for wispmare.
What do you think about this?? And another question...which is the desacceleration in comboing due to unmask??

[Parcher]

For the past few months I've been running 11 lands, 4 Unmask and 2 Dread main and it has been spectacular. The 11 lands can sometimes be an issue post-board, which is why I've been testing the 12th in the side. Running 2 Dread has only been an issue against Combo, or if my opponent topdecked hate. As in situations where you go off turns 1-3, but must pass the turn for lack of a DR. Since I've won 95% of those games the following turn, I haven't felt the need to add the 3rd back.

Removing a card for Unmask has never been an issue, even if it is a Dread Return. The ability to start the combo while disrupting the opponent all on turn one is priceless. Running four mot only enables this, it givesa better chance of pitching Unmask to Unmask.

I've never liked Careful Study, as I've always said. It's conditionally a good card, but both situationally, and functionally it has always proven weaker than the more specialized options.

I don't understand your last sentence.

[GoldenCid]

I don't understand your last sentence.

What i meant is that careful study puts a dredger in your yard and unmask not. So, you delay the oppenet's strategy but you also delay putting a dredger at the same time except you have an imp. I felt this like slowing comboing off. Just an idea...

[Parcher]

Turn One:
1. Lay land
2. Unmask targeting self. Place Dredger in Graveyard.
3. Play Breakthrough (or Careful Study).
4. Win

Pretty fast, neh?

[NecroYawgmoth]

@ Parcher: What do you cut to test the 1-2 Firestorm in the main. Unmask or something other?