[Brainstorming] Break Mind Over Matter!

[URABAHN]

MaRo explains why the card he designed, Mind Over Matter, was banned. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr46)


This card seemed innocent enough when I designed it. It allowed a blue player to turn every card in their hand into a Twiddle. That didn’t sound so bad. To me at least. Development was rightly intimidated by it. Enough so that they raised the mana cost to . Four blue mana. That should keep the card in check. For those unfamiliar with Magic history, let me just sum it up to say “oops!”

So what’s the problem with Mind Over Matter? I didn’t respect a different aspect of the game. If Dream Halls ignored mana cost, Mind Over Matter ignores the cost of tapping a card. The fact the cards with a tap symbol can only be used once a turn is important. Mind Over Matter allowed you, for no mana (this is very important), to reuse tapping permanents. If nothing else, it allowed you to exchange cards for mana by untapping lands.

The lesson of this card is twofold. First, the designers need to have more respect for the tapping cost. Cards which allow a player to repeatedly untap permanents (one shots seem okay) need to be carefully monitored. Second, effects such as these need to have a resource limitation greater than simply discarding cards. This means effects like Mind Over Matter should at minimum also have a mana cost to use.

Let's keep the discussion focused on what to do with it while it's in play. After we think up some busted things to do with Mind Over Matter, then I think we can think up some busted ways to get it into play. I think it's important to take a look at Mark's words about MoM essentially being a reusable Twiddle. Is there something in the format that MoM can take advantage of by untapping or tapping it?

[Kadaj]

The obvious one is to generate mana or fuel some kind of combo. The not so obvious one is to use it to lock the other player out of the game. The card is, on it's own, an opposition as long as you have cards in your hand. It requires such a heavy blue commitment that you'd have to be playing some kind of card drawing, so that's my basic suggestion. Don't be overly complex, just tap everything your opponent has in his upkeep, never let him do anything relevant again.

[Jak]

Is there a way? Lol. I think it would make a really fun deck with Dream Halls if that got unbanned. The best I can think of is high tide, but that just seems stupid when you could win anyways. I will give someone a foil island if they can pull this one off.

Just thinking though. I will give someone 2 foil islands if they can break it with replenish.

[Parcher]

The most broken combo in 5-color used to be MoMa and Urza's Blueprints. How to get both in play before losing is in Legacy is beyond my capabilities.

[CynicalSquirrel]

My first attempt was a janky UG Elves build with Gaea's Cradle, Wirewood Channeler, and Priest of Titania. Basically I'd try to use X draws like Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius to draw a bunch of cards, then make obscene amounts of mana with MoM plus the huge mana producers. Unfortunately even with 8 X draw spells I found it hard to consistently have one. Plus casting Mind Over Matter was really difficult with the UUUU.

I'm starting to think it just can't be broken. Which is kind of sad to me.

[Silthyn]

You could build a mono U deck with Show and Tell to sneak the MoM into play early in the game, and use Rush of Knowledge as your draw engine. High Tides can and should be included.

4x Rush of Knowledge
4x Merchant Scroll
4x High Tide
4x Mind over Matter
4x Show and Tell
4x Mystical Tutor

[C-Aleric]

Perhaps we should all consider the very bad idea of Lotus Bloom. It gives us UUU on turn 4. With a defensive shell, maybe it would work by turn 4. I don't know what kind of kill you'd be using, or anything for that matter. It just seems that the requirement of UUUU is the issue, and the Bloom helps a bit with this. Unfortunately, this means you're on the defense until you can set yourself up, but...

Just another bad idea from myself.

[iOWN]

Arcanis the Omnipotent with MoM draws infinite cards, but it seems like the best way to get that into play would be Replenish-ing MoM and Animate Dead, and by then you might as well just grab something that wins you the game in the same turn. Eureka could also work, but again, the card can already do plenty without those.

I like Eureka because then you can draw infinite into another Eureka, cast it, and drop your hand. :P

[Cavius The Great]

Here is a Mind over Matter list that I've been testing since it got unrestricted.

Lotus Matters.DEC

// Lands
4 [DIS] Breeding Pool
4 [R] Tropical Island
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [OD] Island (2)
4 [WL] Lotus Vale
4 [FUT] Tolaria West

// Spells
4 [EX] Mind Over Matter
4 [9E] Tidings
4 [US] Exploration
4 [9E] Overgrowth
4 [US] Fertile Ground
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [A] Braingeyser
4 [8E] Concentrate
4 [TO] Deep Analysis

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [IN] Teferi's Response
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 3 [SOK] Meishin, the Mind Cage

This deck basically works by abusing Lotus Vale with Mind over Matter. Once you've got an Overgrowth on a Lotus Vale, you cast MoM and generate massive amounts of mana to draw cards with Braingeyser, Tidings, Concentrate and Deep Analysis then repeat the process a few more times till you draw your entire deck. You then discard the rest of your hand to untap the Lotus Vale a few dozen more times and cast Braingeyser on your opponent for 200+ cards. The deck is fun and has alot more to it than I feel like explaining. I hope you guys like the build. :wink:

[thefreakaccident]

well.. you guys could go back and try a way to use one of the original 'combos' again and make it better... one of them was prodigal sorcerer and curiosity (tap deal a damage + draw a card, rinse repeat)...

there were some others, but I cannot remember the others (too long ago).. good luck you guys!

you could also put a card like arcanis the omnipotent to good use (or something of the sort)... basically draw through te entire deck to use something great. The high cc of the cards mentioned makes it seem quite impossible though.

[Cavius The Great]

well.. you guys could go back and try a way to use one of the original 'combos' again and make it better... one of them was prodigal sorcerer and curiosity (tap deal a damage + draw a card, rinse repeat)...

there were some others, but I cannot remember the others (too long ago).. good luck you guys!

you could also put a card like arcanis the omnipotent to good use (or something of the sort)... basically draw through te entire deck to use something great. The high cc of the cards mentioned makes it seem quite impossible though.

Yea, that's the main reason Dream Halls is still banned. Arcanist+Mind over Matter and Dream Halls would probably brake the format again.

But overall Arcanist is just plain bad. Summoning sickness FTL. I think the decklist I posted would do alot better than any Arcanist build.

[URABAHN]

Arcanis the Omnipotent with MoM draws infinite cards, but it seems like the best way to get that into play would be Replenish-ing MoM and Animate Dead, and by then you might as well just grab something that wins you the game in the same turn. Eureka could also work, but again, the card can already do plenty without those.

I like Eureka because then you can draw infinite into another Eureka, cast it, and drop your hand. :P

I like Eureka, too, but it does cost the same amount as Aluren, and at that point, I think I'd rather play Aluren?


This deck basically works by abusing Lotus Vale with Mind over Matter. Once you've got an Overgrowth on a Lotus Vale, you cast MoM and generate massive amounts of mana to draw cards with Braingeyser, Tidings, Concentrate and Deep Analysis then repeat the process a few more times till you draw your entire deck. You then discard the rest of your hand to untap the Lotus Vale a few dozen more times and cast Braingeyser on your opponent for 200+ cards. The deck is fun and has alot more to it than I feel like explaining. I hope you guys like the build.

I like the idea of abusing Lotus Vale to generate massive amounts of mana. I think any of the reusable Black Lotus effects could be very saucy, maybe even Gilded Lotus?

[rufus]

Well, the easy one is something involving:
Stroke of Genious,Braingeyser and/or prosperity
Mind over Matter
High Tide/Bassalt Monolith/...

To make this work, the deck must
1. Quickly produce UUUU2 or cheat Mind over Matter into play -- ideally with some left over.
2. have something that produces more than 1 mana per tap. Obviously 3 or more mana per tap is extra nice.

Something like:

Acceleration:
Chrome Mox
Mox Diamond
Jeweled Amulet
High Tide

Combo/Engine Cards:
Mind over Matter
Stroke of Genious
BrainGeyser
Bassalt Monolith

Protection
Force of Will
Foil
Daze

Land
12xIsland
4xSaprazzan Skerry

[C.P.]

I was thinking something in line of artifact blue.

Like:

Gilded lotus
Voltaic key
Talisman
Basalt monorith

Cloudpost/Vesuva
Tomb/City

Chalice + 3shpere as protection.
Howling Mine(?)

X Drawing spells.

These into fast MoMa then go nuts. Doesn't look too viable right now, though.

[Cavius The Great]

well.. you guys could go back and try a way to use one of the original 'combos' again and make it better... one of them was prodigal sorcerer and curiosity (tap deal a damage + draw a card, rinse repeat)...

there were some others, but I cannot remember the others (too long ago).. good luck you guys!

you could also put a card like arcanis the omnipotent to good use (or something of the sort)... basically draw through te entire deck to use something great. The high cc of the cards mentioned makes it seem quite impossible though.

Quicksliver Dagger and a random creature also works.

[shteev]

I've got it! We get Academy Rector into play with Flash....

Oh. Never mind. :P

[Cavius The Great]

I usually get the Mind over Matter into play with Lotus Vale itself and go crazy with it the very same turn. That's the really beautiful thing with Lotus Vale, Exploration, Fertile Ground and Overgrowth. Getting 2UUUU is a minimal issue with the deck.

And what is it with C.P. and those Cloudpost lands? They're so janky bro, don't play those cards, lol.

[C.P.]

I usually get the Mind over Matter into play with Lotus Vale itself and go crazy with it the very same turn. That's the really beautiful thing with Lotus Vale, Exploration, Fertile Ground and Overgrowth. Getting 2UUUU is a minimal issue with the deck.

And what is it with C.P. and those Cloudpost lands? They're so janky bro, don't play those cards, lol.

I prefer Gilded lotus, because of wastelands. Cloudpost and its friends are just for throwing out some idea. They sometimes work in right decks, bro.

[Cavius The Great]

I prefer Gilded lotus, because of wastelands. Cloudpost and its friends are just for throwing out some idea. They sometimes work in right decks, bro.

I have 4 Teferi's Response in the SB to combat wasteland. I could even add Pithing Needle if I wanted to, but I'm not too worried about it. With Exploration and all of the card draw, I'm easily able to cast a second Lotus Vale with no problems if the first one gets wasted away.

[C.P.]

I have 4 Teferi's Response in the SB to combat wasteland. I could even add Pithing Needle if I wanted to, but I'm not too worried about it. With Exploration and all of the card draw, I'm easily able to cast a second Lotus Vale with no problems if the first one gets wasted away.

I'm still not sold on the vale, but that aside, It seems to me that your deck can benefit from Crucible of Worlds. What do you think?

[Cavius The Great]

I'm still not sold on the vale, but that aside, It seems to me that your deck can benefit from Crucible of Worlds. What do you think?

Crucible of Worlds sounds interesting. Maybe in conjunction with Horn of Greed we can create something even more interesting. Very nice suggestion and definitely worth testing.

[C.P.]

Crucible of Worlds sounds interesting. Maybe in conjunction with Horn of Greed we can create something even more interesting. Very nice suggestion and definitely worth testing.

My only worry is that it look pretty weak against disruption. Crop rotation look pretty strong, if we are going to stick to TurboLand shell.

[Elmi]

There could be some nice interaction with loam too.

With Lotus Vale or a land with a mana enchant like utopia sprawl you could generate tons of mana and dredge your whole library with a cycle land and a loam.

[Cavius The Great]

Just out of curiosity, do you draw a card off Horn of Greed when you play lands from your graveyard with Crucible? I know this is a stupid question but I'm really not sure.

[Angelfire]

The best 2 card combo w/ MoM is Niv Mizzet, if he resolves you win. He also isn't complete jank on his own and works real well w/ cards like Brainstorm and such. My idea would be some form of U/R combo/control w/ counters and burn for critters and wins w/ a combo; kinda like MUC that runs Palinchron/High tide as thier win condition.

[Cavius The Great]

The best 2 card combo w/ MoM is Niv Mizzet, if he resolves you win. He also isn't complete jank on his own and works real well w/ cards like Brainstorm and such. My idea would be some form of U/R combo/control w/ counters and burn for critters and wins w/ a combo; kinda like MUC that runs Palinchron/High tide as thier win condition.

The only problem is how on earth do you get both cards into play at the same time? That's the main problem I see with the combo. Atleast Lotus Vale is free. :tongue:

[C.P.]

The best 2 card combo w/ MoM is Niv Mizzet, if he resolves you win. He also isn't complete jank on his own and works real well w/ cards like Brainstorm and such. My idea would be some form of U/R combo/control w/ counters and burn for critters and wins w/ a combo; kinda like MUC that runs Palinchron/High tide as thier win condition.

No it is not. It dies to just about every removal spell of the day, and he is complete jank of his own, since he forces you heavy commitment to to UR and will never stick to the board. If you want to play the dragon, curiosity works better and costs a lot cheaper.

@cavius: Yes, you draw off the horn. The problem is, the deck is full of inconsistent jank after that.

[Bane of the Living]

You can play Cunning Wish into Constant Mists for the aggro lock. You also have Mindslaver lock with Academy Ruins. Id go with something close to this..

4 Exploration
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Remand
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Cunning Wish
3 Daze
2 Mindslaver
1 Walk the Aeons
4 Horn of Greed

[Cait_Sith]

Just out of curiosity, do you draw a card off Horn of Greed when you play lands from your graveyard with Crucible? I know this is a stupid question but I'm really not sure.

Horn triggers off playing a land. You are still using the play a land special action. So yes, you do get the draw.

[Sengaija]

one thing that i would like to do with MoM is to abuse Mangara of Corondor (untapping her about seven to twelve times and cleaning up the opposing board).:smile: thoughts like this make me happy

[Cavius The Great]

one thing that i would like to do with MoM is to abuse Mangara of Corondor (untapping her about seven to twelve times and cleaning up the opposing board).:smile: thoughts like this make me happy

The only problem with that is, why play that combo when you can play another and just outright win the game.

[Sengaija]

The only problem with that is, why play that combo when you can play another and just outright win the game.

I agree, but to me, having a opponent with no permanents is often more fun then winning :smile:

[scrumdogg]

Having an opponent with no permanents is winning....and many decks combine multiple ways to utilize key cards (often in triads). This allows for greater consistency and greater flexibility (you don't NEED A, B & C to be in play & undisrupted, you can win with A,B, & D, or A,C, & D etc etc). Lotus Vale would be more interesting if it didn't get shanked by Wasteland and require you to sac 2 untapped lands when it comes into play. It also has serious issues if your opponent stops or destroys the Exploration (assuming you get one). Adding in Crucible or Loam makes a lot of sense if someone wants to go that route. MoMa works just fine with enchantments, as Serra's Sanctum allows you to generate silly amounts of mana, especially in an Enchantress shell. One red mana anywhere & your (guaranteed Hellbent) Demonfire is large & Uncounterable or you can make a truly disturbing number of Pegasi, Soldiers, Angels, whatever (and if you have a haste mechanism, it doesn't even have to be at opponents EOT). That and the best way of 'casting' MoMa is probably Replenish anyway, although Lotus Bloom seems like it could be more easily used & abused than most other methods of hardcasting. Academy Rector deserves more attention as well, especially since you can cheat it into play numerous different ways - Aether Vial, Show & Tell, Eureka, Hypergenesis, any reanimate effect - and then sac it to any other number of different effects before your opponent gets priority - Cabal Therapy, Nantuko Husk, Goblin Bombardment etc. This allows you to set up & then win when you activate your cheat, as your opponent should not get priority in a relevant manner.

[Grollub]

Do you guys really think Mind over matter can be broken in legacy? It costs too much and the only way I think it can work is with replenish but can MoM combo with other enchantment? :laugh:

It'd be kinda fun to replenish a Mind over Matter, Lich and Illusions of Grandeur into play... ;-)

[Cavius The Great]

My only worry is that it look pretty weak against disruption. Crop rotation look pretty strong, if we are going to stick to TurboLand shell.

I have 4 Tolaria West in my list to fetch Lotus Vale with. I think that a free transmute uncounterable tutor might be better.

[C.P.]

I have 4 Tolaria West in my list to fetch Lotus Vale with. I think that a free transmute uncounterable tutor might be better.

Except it costs 1UU and only works in sorcery speed? Rotation is very good against LD as well.

[Cavius The Great]

Except it costs 1UU and only works in sorcery speed? Rotation is very good against LD as well.

Crop Rotation for a Lotus Vale requires 3 mana anyways. One mana for the rotation and 2 untapped lands. Plus Tolaria West isn't a loss of card advantage and is uncounterable.

[Cavius The Great]

Am I the reason Lotus Vale is sold out from SCG.com? I really don't know...lol :tongue:

[Cavius The Great]

Hey guys. I recently came up with a janky combo and figured I'd mention it for the hell of it. Demonic Hordes+Mind over Matter. I know it's really janky but I figured it would be fun once you get it into play. Stuff like Rush of Knowledge on either a Horde or MoM can be pretty cool. Sorry about the jankiness but I just had to post it. :wink:

[DrJones]

Am I the reason Lotus Vale is sold out from SCG.com? I really don't know...lol :tongue:I think it's more about people hoping the card will receive errata to work as an uncounterable black lotus. :rolleyes:

Now, were Zodiac Dragon unerrataed, it would be amazing in this deck.

Also, everytime we discuss about the usefulness of Deep Water, someone mentions its interaction with Mind Over Matter and Invoke Prejudice. You might want to try these. :cool:

[Cavius The Great]

I think it's more about people hoping the card will receive errata to work as an uncounterable black lotus. :rolleyes:

Now, were Zodiac Dragon unerrataed, it would be amazing in this deck.

Also, everytime we discuss about the usefulness of Deep Water, someone mentions its interaction with Mind Over Matter and Invoke Prejudice. You might want to try these. :cool:

I actually posted that response like a month before the whole errata thing came up. Check the date. :wink: