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Xandercoon
06-06-2007, 08:30 AM
Thoughtless Sensei


Primer by Xandercoon

This has had a couple of threads on MTGS.

Thoughtless Sensei is a mono-blue combo deck which uses a very strong internal synergy to create a card selection/storm engine. If played well, (and that's a big if) it goldfishes a turn 4 win at least 50% of the time. It is capable of winning on turn 1 and 2. It is easily capable of winning on turn 3 (about 20% of the time.) It goldfishes turn 5 about 20% of games, and fizzles the other 10% or so. It is not a one-trick pony, but has several ways to go off, some of them highly unexpected.

Artifacts
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Sensei’s Divining Top

Enchantments
4 Thought Lash
4 Future Sight

Instants
4 Brainstorm
2 Brainfreeze
3 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Long-Term Plans

Sorceries
4 Drafna’s Restoration

Lands
8 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Saprazzan Skerry

Wishboard
1 Daze
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stifle
1 Meditate
1 Vision Skeins
1 Echoing Truth
1 Spoils of the Vault
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Wing Shards
1 Argivian Find
1 Reclaim
1 Razor Barrier
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Abeyance
1 Hunting Pack

*Combo A (the "auto-win") relies on the interaction between Thought Lash and Future Sight. It is a two-card combo which auto-wins the game, and barring certain hate cards, nothing much can stop you after you get the two into play. Essentially, you use Thought Lash to burn the dross from the top of your library, playing out all your 0-cost mana artifacts, generating mana. Gain storm and card advantage with Sensei's Divining Top, and then play Drafna's Restoration to put all the mana on top of your library and play it again. Once Storm is lethal, Brain Freeze for the win. If your opponent messes with you, you can Lash your library until you topdeck a Force of Will, and draw a blue card with Top: all for free and at instant speed. The combo essentially puts your deck in your hand. You can win on the turn you go off, if you need to, by wishing for Vision Skeins.

*Combo B (the "manual win") is Future Sight + Sensei's Divining Top + mana. The deck does not require Thought Lash to win. With Future Sight and Top, it is possible to pay mana to draw cards at a one-to-one ratio. Thus, with enough of an initial investment (say, an Ancient Tomb, an Island and an LED,) it is possible to keep drawing into more and more artifact mana and Restorations, and generate a lethal storm count without ever casting Thought Lash.

*Combo C (the "left-field beatdown win") is simply Cunning Wish + lots of mana. Here's an example of this hilarious play (something of a god-hand, but it serves to illustrate.)
T1: "Ok, Ancient Tomb, LED, LED, Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Cunning Wish for Hunting Pack, in response break the LEDs for green, play Hunting Pack. That'll be six 4/4s then."
If you see 10 mana and Cunning WIsh, you may want to consider making this play: just watch out for Force of Will. Note: This play works just as well on turns 2 and 3.

Playing the deck.
In most games, you should be focussed on resolving Future Sight as your no. 1 priority. Keep your eyes on the prize, and don't worry about playing Thought Lash or Cunning Wish just for the hell of it; only drop them if it plays into your strategy. You may be called upon to do complicated things, or make risky calls with Top. Practice makes perfect.
WARNING: Never (well, almost never) drop a Thought Lash unless you have a Top in play. Its a recipe for disaster: you will sit there drawing crap and milling away your Sights and win conditions. Only do it if you need the damage prevention to stay alive. Mostly you should keep your artifact mana in hand until its time to drop Future Sight. But not if you are facing discard or Stax pieces.

Playing through hate.
*Anything that doesn't actively prevent you from going off can be bounced with Echoing Truth from the wishboard as you are going off.
*Gaea's Blessing: You need combo A. Build a large storm count and win with Hunting Pack.
*Pithing Needle: Not gamebreaking. If naming Top, just tutor up Combo A and win. If naming Thought Lash, win with Combo B.
*Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere: Wish for bounce at the opportune time. Bad news unless you have already played out an LED or two.
*Chalice @ 0 or 1: Chalice at 0 needs to be Forced or bounced. You can go off through Chalice at 1, but without Drafna's, Top or Brainstorm, you may need to use Hunting Pack for the kill.
*Pyrostatic Pillar: Laugh maniacally.
*Disenchant: Force of Will or Reclaim from the board.
*Krosan Grip: Reclaim.
Leyline of the Void: You can win without the graveyard using the Hunting Pack kill.
*Null Rod: Bad, bad news. You can win through it...good luck though. Counter that ****.

Internal Synergies
I thought I'd demonstrate some of the synergies inherent in the strategy. TS is the zen of decks, as nearly every card makes a combo with every other card in the deck.
*Top + Future Sight is the Shovel. "1: Draw a card. +1 storm." That was good, last I heard.
*Top + Thought Lash is the Steam Shovel. "1: Look at the top 3 cards of your library. If they're not Future Sight, RFG them and try again. Also, cast Healing Salve." nb: doing this during your opponent's turn is a good way to piss off an aggro player.
*Thought Lash + Ancient Tomb = no pain
*Top + Long-Term Plans: "Long-Term Plans is now Demonic Tutor."
*Top + Brain Freeze on you: For when you hate the top 3.
*Top + LED = Black Lotus.
*LED + Brainstorm = Black Lotus.
*LED + Future Sight = Black Lotus (are you starting to see a trend here?)
*Future Sight + Drafna's Restoration: Get all your mana back.
*Drafna's Restoration + Brainstorm: Get all your mana back.
*Top-deck knowledge + Fetchlands: tech.
*Top-deck knowledge vs. discard: tech.

Matchups
This is mostly theoretical, I admit. * indicates that I've actually tested the matchup.
*Goblins: Definitely favourable. You are combo, and you prevent damage. Ancient Tomb, basics and artifacts largely offset Wasteland and Port.
*Survival: A walkover. They pretty much can't win.
*Stax: Believe it or not, a favourable matchup due to the silver bullet Hurkyl's Recall in the board. Depends on the build though.
*Landstill: I managed to post 50% numbers against Landstill due to speed and luck, as far as I can tell. It helps to be holding multiple Sights and FoWs.
Thresh: Better than Landstill.
Faerie Stompie etc: Not great. Chalice is bad.
*Solidarity: 50%. The thing about a Brain Freeze mirror match is that both players sit there waiting for the other to go off. I just responded to their Nth card draw spell with a double Brain Freeze and a counterspell open. The correct strategy for this matchup is a complete mystery for me though...it does my head in.
*Aluren: Very good matchup. You are both 1 card combos. Difference is, you have Force of Will.
Other combo: Not too good, as they are usually faster. If you win these it is through good hands with Force of Will and 3rd-turn wins. If Iggy gets Leyline its all over. UPDATE: Apparently it went 7-3 against CRET Belcher.
Other aggro: Very good. If they run Chalice, Disenchant, Null Rod etc., 1 piece of hate is not usually enough to stop you.
Other control: Board control and 43-land are byes. Discard is generally favourable, believe it or not.


What Thoughtless Sensei isn't:
1. A Johnny deck built to abuse a "bad" card. Word up: when I designed the deck I had no idea that Thought Lash had a rep of being the worst card in Alliances. It was a card that did the job I required of it, that's all. Illusions of Grandeur, Food Chain and Necropotence were all crap until a deck came along that broke them.

2. Sensei Sensei. The deck is so close to the Helm of Awakening/Top combo that it has been very tempting to stick Helms in for the hell of it. This is not that deck. In fact, Thoughtless Sensei is almost quantifiably better than that deck (its a good turn faster, runs just as much disruption, and needs less pieces). The deck is plenty combo enough: adding more combos simply makes the deck lose focus.

3. Something I just threw together. Its been in development since mid-2005, has a modest tournament history (mainly due to an almost complete lack of tournaments here), and one of my major testing partners is a former NZ national champion.

FAQ
a. Why would I ever play this over Solidarity?
That's probably one of the most important questions you could ask, so I'll tackle it first.
1. The metagame is prepared for Solidarity. A lot of the Solidarity hate which is found in sideboards is next to useless against TS. For example, Pyrostatic Pillar/Ichneumon Druid will be lucky to deal a single point of damage to you during the combo, due to the damage cushion provided by Thought Lash. Stifle and Trickbind do not phase TS, as you can easily play multiple copies of Brain Freeze after going off. Mana Maze usually accomplishes very little due to the fact that it is easy to alternate between playing an artifact and playing a blue spell, or chaining multiple artifact spells in a row followed by a blue spell. True Believer and Solitary Confinement (and Platinum Angel and Ivory Mask etc.) are non-issues as they can be bounced from the wishboard. Remember, once Future Sight and Thought Lash are online, mana and cards flow freely.
2. Thoughtless Sensei beats Goblins.
But Solidarity beats Goblins too!
Thoughtless Sensei does it better. Put it this way: one of the combo pieces costs 2UU and gives you a 40 point life cushion. That's a bit like Solidarity's trick of using Turnabout as a Fog. Except that Thought Lash can prevent damage from a Goblin Horde for several turns, and you know the really great thing? The same card that is saving your butt is simultaneously (with the help of Top) digging ever closer to the Future Sight you need to seal the deal.
3. Its potentially faster. Thoughtless Sensei can win on turn one; Solidarity can't.
4. The rogue element. A counterspell player, unfamiliar with the deck, will often waste their counters on dross like Thought Lash, LTP and Cunning Wish. You can use this to your advantage. Also, you lead out with Island, and watch the Threshold player drop a Meddling Mage naming High Tide. Rogue is good.

b. Isn't a deck based around resolving a 5cmc enchantment a losing proposition?
That's where the mana-base comes in. The deck's mana is designed to cast a turn 2 or 3 Future Sight, into a 4th-turn win. And it works, period. There are multiple ways to get there: from the simple (T1 Skerry, T2 Ancient Tomb, Petal, Future Sight), to the complex (ok...T1 Tomb, Top, LED, activate top, topdeck Long Term Plans; T2 Island; EOT Long-Term Plans for Future Sight; T3 look at top three and topdeck Future SIght, float two, break LED, draw Future Sight with Top and play it.) Other ways involve digging with Thought Lash and Top, etc.

c. But Iggy/TES/Belcher/SI is faster!
Maybe. When I made the deck, turn 4 was a very competitive speed. But the format is speeding up. This is the area where development comes in handy. In the end, it may be the case that the deck simply cannot compete for speed, in which event I would nominate it as a prime candidate to be the format's defining combo-control archetype. With so many ways to adjust the top cards of the library, Counterbalance could be incorporated with the greatest of ease. With so many 0 and 1-drops, Erayo, Soratami Ascendant could also be played. As a mono-blue deck, TS is in an ideal position to maindeck more counterspells. Also, Magus of the Future is an obvious candidate for increasing the redundancy of the combo (since in a deck where Future Sight is all you really need to win, surely 5 to 8 is better than 4..?)

d. Wouldn't it be better with a colour splash? Lim-Dul's Vault and Enlightened Tutor > Long-Term Plans!
I've tried them. Every colour splash I've tried has damaged the consistency of the deck, and slowed the clock by a turn. Its got to do with the rhythm of the deck. One of this deck's best turn 1 punches is Ancient Tomb - Top - Activate. If you're playing LDV you can't do that on turn 1 and then play the tutor on turn 2; at least not without using valuable artifact mana. You are forced into making an inefficient play. Plans lets you Top turn one, Tutor turn 2, and play Future Sight turn 3, most likely. I swear to you, this is THE DECK to break Long-Term Plans in. However, I am still open to the idea of a colour splash, as long as it demonstrably improves the clock or consistency of the deck.

e. I tried playing your stupid deck and it did nothing til turn 7 and then I decked myself! What gives?
You did it wrong, that's what. Trust me, the deck is consistent. It's also an extremely complex deck to play (i.e. at least as difficult as Solidarity). Its nothing to be ashamed of.
But all you have to do is resolve one enchantment, right?
Try doing that consistently on turn three, following a Duress on turn 1 and a Hymn to Tourach on turn two. Or past a deck with two counterspells open. And guess what: you won't roll to that like some combo decks do. But it will take a bit of luck, and a heck of a lot of thinking. But you dig a challenge, right? Playing TS in a tournament takes nerves of steel: its probably the ultimate test of Spikeness. It's some combination of juggling your hand, top three cards, mana pool, storm count, life total, Thought Lash upkeep, figuring out the most efficient play, etc. My playgroup dubbed it "Headache.deq".

Tournament History
Ahem. A little background: I live in New Zealand. We're lucky if we get one Legacy tournament, of any size, in a year. So don't expect too much from downunder: this deck needs a champion or a team in the States or Europe if it's going to get anywhere. Also, I build decks, but I can't play; so my own results (midrange finishes mostly) are probably non-representative. HOWEVER:
I gave the deck to Glen Patel (who at the time was the NZ National Champion, and had just come back from taking on Worlds with Heartbeat of Spring); He took it to a local tournament with 15 people or so, and the deck basically went through them like a knife through butter, pulling regular 2nd and 3rd turn wins and making the Survival and aggro players look a bit silly. It came second to Goblins, and straight after the match results were given Glen realised that he had miscounted his storm count and should have actually won the final game, and the tournament. Note that this was after he removed all the Goblin hate from the sideboard because we thought they weren't going to show up...Ahh well.




I want to hear all suggestions regarding this deck; Magus of the Future seems like a good place to begin a meaningful discussion. I would love to get this deck into Proven Competitive. However, big tournament results are an impossibility as I live 10,000 miles away from any major Legacy events. Therefore, anyone who builds the deck and brings it to a large tournament will earn my endless thanks and admiration.
I'm willing to test via MWS, pm me. Although I am a post-graduate student, so my time is somewhat limited. As always, if anyone tests with the deck on MWS against randoms I am always keen to hear about the results.

MAD TECH UPDATE: The card Replenish actually crossed my mind just after I posted the primer. I've been testing a W/U list and HOLY CANOLI!!!
Its not just redundancy, its completely busted! By using LED and Brain Freeze to get the enchantments :eek: into the graveyard quickly, the chances of 1st, 2nd and 3rd turn wins go up dramatically.
There's a thread on the Source about breaking Replenish. How's this...?
T1: Tomb, Top, activate. Ohh, look, a Replenish on top! Drop Led and Lotus Petal. Break them discarding combo pieces. Draw Replenish with Top and play it for a first turn win!
I upped Brain Freeze to 4 since its a combo piece now (really: First turn Boseiju, second turn mill yourself for 6, third turn uncounterable game-winning Replenish.) I'm also running Boseiju for inevitability. Replenish is fantastic tech, you gotta try it!

Very Rough Replenish Testbed:
Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Saprazzan Skerry
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Island

Spells
4 Drafna's Restoration
4 Future Sight
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Thought Lash
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Brain Freeze
4 Replenish
1 Echoing Truth
3 Mystical Tutor
Needs work, but...Power.:eek:

Silverdragon
06-06-2007, 11:36 AM
I just goldfished the monoblue version a bit and I really like the deck. The combo is ok although it lacks a bit of protection (meaning I really miss the Remands).
Could you please explain why the sideboard is the way it is? Is the maindeck so tight that you can only play wishtargets? Why were some of the cards chosen over others? Could it be improved? What meta did you have in mind?
One card I'd include in the sideboard is Stroke of Genius and maybe Rebuild. I can't see Razor Barrier being better than Counterspell in the wishboard. What does Spoils of the Vault find that Enlightened or Mystical Tutor can't find? (Aside from lands but when you cast Cunning Wish and an off-color instant I guess you had at least 3 lands and a Lotus Petal at the beginning of the turn.) Is it there to further mill your library?
Lastly why Abeyance over Orims Chant? Is the cantrip worth the 2cc? What activated abilities do you fear?

Nydaeli
06-06-2007, 03:44 PM
Given the speed of the deck, it doesn't seem like four Force of Will is nearly enough protection. Have you thought about running Counterbalance? It's got great synergy with Top. I don't think the deck is fast enough for pure combo, so a combo-control approach makes more sense to me. (On that note, cutting Force of Will in the Replenish version is unacceptable. But I understand that list isn't polished. Just... put it back in.)

Edit - I should have read more of your opening post. You have considered Counterbalance. But I would strongly recommend running it.

Reverend Damaged
06-06-2007, 03:47 PM
Have you considered Sapphire Meddalion in the main? I see the Skerry as being much too vulnerable to Wasteland, especially without 4 Stifles in the sideboard. At last with the Sapphire Meddalion, you can speed up casting your enchantments as well as reduce Cunning Wish cost.


Only issue being, finding a way to remove cards to put the Sapphire in.


Comments above pertain to mono-blue version of course.

Iranon
06-06-2007, 04:19 PM
First, excellent original post... the deck is both interesting and well-documented.

The weakest links appear to be Drafna's Restoration (situational... could you cut them down to 2?) and Long-Term Plans (weak, although this deck minimises its deficiencies).


I fully condone the inclusion of Counterbalance, probably starting as a 2-of.

Could bulk draw like Ideas Unbound replace Long-Term Plans, building on the synergy with LED?

I hesitate to suggest something as janky as this... but Ancestral Knowledge seems to fit the bill for affordable and powerful library manipulation, although it's probably not good as more than a one-of.

Kronicler
06-06-2007, 08:15 PM
Wow, this seems like a super cool deck and you wrote an excellent opening post. I think the U/W version definately deserves more testing, but in terms of the mono-U version, I think that counterballance is necessary to protect the combo and to survive until you can combo off. Magus of the Future also seems like a good idea as maybe a 2 of just to help you find your key card.

Kronicler

freakish777
06-06-2007, 09:45 PM
Alright, a couple things:

Replenish is rediculous here. Unlike with PandeBurst, you can actually hardcast your Enchantments here since they're in color. That said, Careful Study, Thirst for Knowledge, and Intuition should all probably find their ways into the deck. LED doesn't seem good here, Chrome Mox will probably be better. Go down to 1 Freeze and 2~3 Wishes.

thefreakaccident
06-06-2007, 10:27 PM
nice job!!

probably the best primer that I have read in a long time!

were you given the boot? you only have 1 post now :confused:

well haven't we al at least once.. lol

on a serious note, I think this could easilty become the next best thing since sliced bread... the power is rediculous sometimes, it is not even funny. I think you would greatly improove the deck overall with the addition of cb though.

good luck with the deck!

Xandercoon
06-07-2007, 03:27 AM
I just goldfished the monoblue version a bit and I really like the deck. The combo is ok although it lacks a bit of protection (meaning I really miss the Remands).
Could you please explain why the sideboard is the way it is? Is the maindeck so tight that you can only play wishtargets? Why were some of the cards chosen over others? Could it be improved? What meta did you have in mind?
One card I'd include in the sideboard is Stroke of Genius and maybe Rebuild. I can't see Razor Barrier being better than Counterspell in the wishboard. What does Spoils of the Vault find that Enlightened or Mystical Tutor can't find? (Aside from lands but when you cast Cunning Wish and an off-color instant I guess you had at least 3 lands and a Lotus Petal at the beginning of the turn.) Is it there to further mill your library?
Lastly why Abeyance over Orims Chant? Is the cantrip worth the 2cc? What activated abilities do you fear?
Here are card explanations. Although the wishboard is slightly out of date.
1 Daze - There should be a free counter. This could now be Pact of Negation, maybe.
1 Brain Freeze - obv
1 Stifle - For other storm decks
1 Meditate - Something to recover with if you burn out.
1 Vision Skeins - Just to make your opponent draw a card. Stroke is no good, as you rarely generate very large amounts of mana.
1 Echoing Truth - All-purpose answer
1 Spoils of the Vault - This is the most mana-efficient card for when you want Future Sight in hand NOW, rather than on top of the library.
1 Enlightened Tutor - obv
1 Wing Shards - random anti-Goblin tech
1 Argivian Find - Recurs combo pieces to hand
1 Reclaim - Recurs combo pieces to top of library.
1 Razor Barrier - Rescues permanents from both removal spells and abilities (like Aura of silence?)
1 Hurkyl's Recall - bounces multiple lock pieces or hate artifacts.
1 Abeyance - should probably be Chant.
1 Hunting Pack - Alternate kill. Explained in the primer.

Here are a couple of up-to-date lists we are working with. Puzzle's list:
Mana : 29
4 Tundra
4 Saprazzan Skerry
4 City of Traitors
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Lotus Petal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Helm of Awakening

Spells : 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Echoing Truth
3 Brain Freeze
3 Replenish
3 Thought Lash
3 Future Sight
4 Intuition
3 Orim's Chant
3 Force of Will


My list:
Lands
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Tundra
2 Flooded Strand
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Saprazzan Skerry

Spells
2 Orim's Chant
4 Brain Freeze (cause I keep T3 winning by Freezing myself on turn 2.)
3 Intuition
4 Thought Lash
3 Drafna's Restoration
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Future Sight
4 Replenish
4 Force of Will
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

It has to be said, the Replenish decks are faster. They have the tendency to randomly lucksack turn 2 and 3 wins. The question is, which is optimal, my Drafna's Restoration list or Puzzle's Helm of Awakening list.
Also, can Boseiju go in the deck? I know its slow, but it wins games through counterspells.

Puzzle
06-07-2007, 06:46 AM
Other points on which we'd like more input :

- A suggestion that has been made was Counterbalance, which is particularly interesting for my list due to the Brainstorm.
It sounds good but would fight for Orim's Chant slot and the Chant works better against faster combos, which are the main threat imo. That said, Counterbalance is great against Threshold.
So, I'd also like to hear more thoughts on this topic.

- I am unsatisfied with the mana base of my build and am seriously considering going down to 3 Skerry for 1 more Island but I'm not sure that's the answer either. I feel like I'm missing out on something and can't pinpoint what.

PS : regarding the lack of counters, note that Intuition can fetch FoW or Orim's Chant. I'd like more defense but what needs to go out ?

Mijorre
06-07-2007, 02:06 PM
LED doesn't seem good here, Chrome Mox will probably be better. Go down to 1 Freeze and 2~3 Wishes.

Actually, LED provides a lot of recycle mana with Drafna's Restoration and allows you to top out excess lands if you haven't got the thought lash down with the future sight. Chrome mox seems too ... dangerous with Future Sight.

I am probably one of the reasons there are still so many Drafna in the deck. It has proven surprisingly useful during my testing.

SouthAlly
06-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Wow, Replenish is legal for less than a week, and this deck is already at this stage of development? You guys are tireless.
A thought: Gigapede

Not just an alternate win, but you can Intuition for it and any two just to pitch the one you got stuck with to get this one back. Ya know, for when you are already holding Replenish.

Mijorre
06-07-2007, 05:25 PM
Actually, you can do the same with LED, Gigapede is cute, but I sure as hell wouldn't know what to take out for it.
And being the sole creature in the deck, with toughness one, without shroud...it seems a little dangerous for him to be used as alt-kill.

SouthAlly
06-08-2007, 10:22 AM
But it does have Shroud.

Well, OK anyway. It was just a thought.

Mijorre
06-08-2007, 11:50 AM
No problem ^^. I prefer the mono-blue list anyway, (due to stability against, say, wasteland recursion) but it might find its way in at some point if it turns out to be better than ... something. Who knows?

Also: Shroud = huzzah :D.

Kronicler
06-08-2007, 04:58 PM
While the U/W build does look promising, I'm not sure what it offers over TES or CRET Belcher besides having FOWs. The mono U build, on the other hand, may work perfectly with 4 Counterballances for more control and either Implulses or Serum Visions for extra dig. This would push the deck much more towards combo/control, but I think that is the best idea right now, wnless we can get the U/W version to start winning much faster as well as fitting more protection into it.

Kronicler

Mijorre
06-08-2007, 07:05 PM
I would like to be running more manipulation (portent?), as that way you can fool around with the top of the deck in order to set up the crazy wins. It would be a way around needles on top and to maximise them when said needles are not around.

As for the UW-build, I urge to run a basic plains as wasteland protection.

honz
06-09-2007, 12:02 AM
For starters, i love the idea; i'm always happy to see something new. With that said, i feel there is room for improvement...

For starters, i feel replenish is the wrong direction to take things. Once you start splashing colors for this and that, you start to become a tier 2+ combo deck. Staying mono-blue will simplify things, and increase consistancy.

Counterbalance is needed here. Like kronicler said, counters are the only thing making this worth playing over faster combo decks. The synergy with top and thought lash is crazy. I think you could support 3 counterbalances with ease. Throw in a couple brainstorm and serum visions to lock down things for a long time. The diverse CC of your deck also fuels the power.

Admittedly, i havent really played the deck, but Trinket Mage looks pretty tech here. Im not advocating turning this into a counter-top deck, but mage has some nice targets in the deck (top, LED, petal). Perhaps this could be a counter-top based deck, that has future sight, thought lash, top combo FTW. i think that could a decent direction to go...

Helm of awakening seems bad, really bad. Since this deck is going off turn 4 most the time (?), i feel a helm helps your opponent way too much in that time.

I keep thinking academy rector has gotta fit somewhere into the deck that wants to play 2 enchantments with a CC of 4-5...

well, just throwing out some ideas. Hope i helped atleast a little...

Mijorre
06-09-2007, 04:16 AM
Rector would be bad, we would have to run a reliable way of killing her. And we do not.

I have been testing the counterbalance, thus far it hasn't really seen play, but I blame that on the other test list countering it. A lot. Stupid Threshold. Then again, I will be testing goblins once I have the time.

Silverdragon
06-09-2007, 04:20 AM
I tried a version with whitesplash for Orim's Chant and Enlightened Tutor but no Replenish. My first impression is that you don't need that many Thought Lashes. Generally resolving Future Sight is a tremendous advantage and can often lead to a combo by chaining 6-7 spells and playing 2 or more Freezes. Enlightened Tutor is also a lot better than Long-Term Plans because it can be played first turn and finds Top.

Mijorre
06-09-2007, 07:17 AM
The current UW list of 'Coon (see post #9) hasn't got long term plans either. Because the card sucks, obviously. I too prefer tutors (cheap + top + shuffle) over plans (shuffle + mill 2), and I enjoy cunning wish over replenish, due to the ability to store up the kill until you need it that way. Replenish just negates a lot of the bonus one gets from LED.
If I were to figure a way to get replenish in atm, it would be via a red splash, rather than a white one.

Xandercoon
06-09-2007, 09:16 AM
The current UW list of 'Coon (see post #9) hasn't got long term plans either. Because the card sucks, obviously. I too prefer tutors (cheap + top + shuffle) over plans (shuffle + mill 2), and I enjoy cunning wish over replenish, due to the ability to store up the kill until you need it that way. Replenish just negates a lot of the bonus one gets from LED.
If I were to figure a way to get replenish in atm, it would be via a red splash, rather than a white one.
A red splash? ...You mean Burning Wish? Please explain. :confused:
Long Term Plans would obviously only fit in the mono-blue, as there are better tutor options in most of the other colors. I will say that the deck definitely makes the most of the card, as Thought Lash, Brainstorm, Top and Future Sight all say "have the card now"; and it can be cast on turn 2 off a Tomb.

However, I also agree that I hardly ever play it and it is probably outdated tech. I have yet to warm to Intuition though...surely there is something more broken that we can do with it? Although I like it that it can act as a counterspell.

Let's also try to break the LED/Cunning Wish combo some more. Ideas on a postcard please.

I reiterate (with buyback) that if counterspells are giving you trouble, run a Replenish build and put Boseiju in the sideboard. I mean, LED + uncounterable Replenish is a win, right?

Somewhere out there is the optimal build for this deck!:laugh:

After I finish with my uni assignment tomorrow I will have time to devote to some testing.
EDIT: I'm pretty sure you meant Burning Wish. Sounds like great tech!

Mijorre
06-09-2007, 10:08 AM
Of course I mean Burning Wish.
And Rite of Flame in side together with one or two pyroclasms.
It shows that I have been testing goblins today, huh?

And you've discovered the obvious ETW plan too ^^.

Xandercoon
06-09-2007, 10:25 AM
The Latest Tech
// Lands
3 [MR] Island (2)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [MM] Saprazzan Skerry
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [B] Volcanic Island
1 [4E] Mountain (1)

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [ON] Future Sight
3 [AQ] Drafna's Restoration
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AL] Thought Lash
3 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [TE] Intuition
3 [CS] Counterbalance

// Sideboard so far
Drafna's Restoration
Replenish
Empty the Warrens
Grapeshot
Rite of Flame
Pyroclasm

I got rid of the cunning wishes in place of Intuitions and Counterbalances, for stability. This list looks amazing, losing little or no speed but gaining mass stability by running 4 FoW, 3 Counter-top and 3 Intuition that can find FoW...Also, went down to 1 Brain Freeze, since Wishing up a Grapeshot works just as well. My only concern is going down to 3 each of combo pieces... And a Drafnas in the sideboard even makes it much easier to combo out without Thought Lash...
Edit: Back to 4 Future Sight, 3 Wish. Sight = win...

Mijorre
06-09-2007, 10:52 AM
I would cut a top and a sight for 2 cunning wishes, making my wishboard:

1 Stifle
1 Daze
1 Brain Freeze
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Replenish
1 Drafna's restoration
2 Pyroclasm

with regular
4 rite of flame
3 open slots

Because I dislike grapeshot ^_^.

thefreakaccident
06-09-2007, 07:40 PM
this is going to look pretty broken pretty darn fast!

this deck is teh hotnez if you know what I mean...

I think I am in love :wink: .

This will be my next project (after cajon fish, funkling, and MO).

Xandercoon
06-10-2007, 12:45 AM
this is going to look pretty broken pretty darn fast!

this deck is teh hotnez if you know what I mean...

I think I am in love :wink: .

This will be my next project (after cajon fish, funkling, and MO).
I am very open to anyone with a team adopting this deck.
'Cause I live in New Zealand, where tournaments aren't. And as much as I'd like to I can't really justify spending thousands on plane tickets to go to Gencon. So until I can, I need people who do go to large tournaments to try out the deck. At least until GP: Waikikamukou comes along...:tongue:

Solpugid
06-10-2007, 01:58 AM
Xandercoon, where in New Zealand do you live? I'll be stdying abroad at Hamilton in a month.

To be more on-topic, I would definitely go with brain freeze over grapeshot in the board. You already need to pay red to cast burning wish, so it seems the chances of having another red available are lower than they would need to be to justify wishing for a another red card. Am I very wrong about the ability of this deck to generate RR eary on? If so, then I retract my statement and would say instead that grapeshot is superior because it can win the turn it's played.

Xandercoon
06-10-2007, 02:30 AM
Xandercoon, where in New Zealand do you live? I'll be stdying abroad at Hamilton in a month.

To be more on-topic, I would definitely go with brain freeze over grapeshot in the board. You already need to pay red to cast burning wish, so it seems the chances of having another red available are lower than they would need to be to justify wishing for a another red card. Am I very wrong about the ability of this deck to generate RR eary on? If so, then I retract my statement and would say instead that grapeshot is superior because it can win the turn it's played.
I'm in Auckland, about 2 hours by car from Hamiltron. Your plane will probably be landing here.
If you are in a position to cast a storm spell for the win, then multicoloured mana will be flowing freely by that stage. The deck generates Storm with mana artifacts that produce multiple mana of any colour.

Mijorre
06-10-2007, 02:33 AM
Well, we do run 4 petals (sac for any colour of mana) and 4 LED (sac for any colour of mana) so we can generate some decent amount of it, my main fear is that when the wishes pop out in a straight line (without Drafna for getting them mana-makers back) we might be in trouble, but then again, that draw would suck so bad it is statistically impossible to lose the next game due to karma :D.
But! Cracking a LED (red) after seeing a burning wish on top with future sight gives you 3 red mana, in theory, even when tight on mana, you can cast the burning wish and keep one red in pool, waiting until you flip into another red. Again, this is where the rite of flame might come in handy. I put them in board to accel a bit game 2. Storm + accel generally goes well.
I honestly do think we have to go for either the grapeshot kill or the brain freeze kill, as both seems...exceedingly redundant.
Grapeshot can kill the turn it is cast, but brain freeze can kill in the opponent's turn (brilliant in the mirror, might I add).

Hmm, boarding update:

1 Stifle
1 Daze
1 Brain Freeze
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Replenish
1 Drafna's restoration
2 Pyroclasm
<preference>
1 Stroke of genius/braingeyser

with regular
4 rite of flame
2 open slots for meta

Xandercoon
06-10-2007, 02:51 AM
Hehe, the mirror isn't exactly a big metagame concern at the moment.
But Counterbalance is fantastic to play against any combo deck...especially those that rely on playing 0-drop artifacts or 1cmc acceleration (i.e. all the good ones.)
28 cards that cost zero + 11 that cost 1 = high chance of hitting combo pieces.
I'm confused as to the exact usefulness of Rite of Flame. Have you tested it? Was it any good? I would think it would feel like this:
"Mana, mana everywhere, and not a drop of Blue... "

Mijorre
06-10-2007, 03:47 AM
Every one of our lands produces blue except for tomb/city. Artifact mana produces blue if needed. Rite of Flame basically gets you a better chance of survival when a null rod/chalice for zero is down. Of course, other stuff might come in, testing will ensue once I finish The Old Man and The Sea (f'ing Nobel Prize Winners)

Other option: Chain of vapor/shattering spree in board for that chalice?

Xandercoon
06-10-2007, 10:46 AM
Every one of our lands produces blue except for tomb/city. Artifact mana produces blue if needed. Rite of Flame basically gets you a better chance of survival when a null rod/chalice for zero is down. Of course, other stuff might come in, testing will ensue once I finish The Old Man and The Sea (f'ing Nobel Prize Winners)

Other option: Chain of vapor/shattering spree in board for that chalice?
Well, Rite could work, but I look at the list and see a lot of UU and UUU...

Shattering Spree would be my first choice. Also, Chalice for two slaughters my list at the moment (if it resolves), as it stops all the kill conditions and the wish which would finnd the solution to it.:frown: I may need to maindeck at least one Cunning Wish after all.

Mijorre
06-10-2007, 11:33 AM
And we also see replenish (wishable), which is 3W, and basically negates your UU and UUU ^_^. Wasn't that the whole point of splashing replenish in the first place? Wish respond LED fetch and cast replenish => win?

Chalice at 2 got you down? That's why I want Cunning Wish in :D. Occassionally, I do ponder on things, you know, having a wish that costs 3 but can fetch bounce for 1 is useful. Same as a wish for 2 that can fetch destuction for 1. If they set the chalice for one, we can just go off. If they set it for 0, we can go off, but it takes a while (gotta find that bounce off islands or grab a slow wish - game 1 -).
In general though, Chalice for 2 costs 4, so most chalice decks will only get that turn 2 or 3. By that time, we should have some FoW in hand.

Xandercoon
06-11-2007, 03:56 AM
Okay, I tested the U/r list a bit against this Goblin list. Went 2-3 :( But I think the mono-blue list is stronger aainst aggro.
// Lands
4 [RAV] Mountain
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [R] Plateau
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [7E] Goblin Matron
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
1 [ON] Goblin Pyromancer
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
2 [AT] Mogg Flunkies
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [TE] Mogg Fanatic

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Disenchant

It maindecks Disenchant to keep me on my toes.That fucking Pyromancer seems to get topdecked for the win every damn game...
But I have to say, Thought Lash + Top is the way to beat Goblins...just churn through your library looking for Future Sight and fog their attack at the same time...priceless.
I think the mono-blue list has a better game against Goblins, due to it's additional redundancy against Wasteland. Counterbalance is too slow for Goblins. But the U/r is almost certainly better against combo. Its probably a meta call.
Since games against Goblins tend to remove large chunks of your library from the game, I noticed that it can be somewhat difficult to reach 20+ storm even when you go off fully. Therefore I suggest a Tendrils of Agony in the wishboard, maybe in the place of Grapeshot, as that only needs 9 storm. which is much easier.
Empty the Warrens for 8 or 10 tokens happened in two of the games on turn 2 or so. I noted that it is only really a delaying tactic against Goblins; you can block their attacks for two or three turns while you try to go off. However, it could be very effective in certain matchups!

Mijorre
06-11-2007, 05:05 AM
Counterbalance is definitely something you need to side out against goblins, unless if you run the mono-blue tutor version. With tutors, you can still manipulate and counter things by putting 2-3 cc down.
The worst threats then really are lackey-vial, as those bypass that defense.

The Goblin list I test against is:

Artifacts
4 AEther Vial

Gobbos
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander

Random defense removal
3 Lightning Bolt

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
7 Mountain

Which ended 5-5 on the mono-blue, if memory serves me, and is a 7-3 beating on puzzletop.

And didn't I say Grapeshot is bad? :P Tendrils has the added bonus of a little stall against Aggro. Gaining 10 life generally gives you an extra turn to live.

Also, the green splash list seems like it could do more damage, krosan grip being uncounterable and all...

Xandercoon
06-12-2007, 05:44 PM
The single Brain Freeze in the maindeck seems really pointless...whenever I draw it I wish it was something else. So I guess it should be replaced by either setup, protection or more combo pieces...I'm thinking of reinstating the 4th Thought Lash (its annoying when I can't intuition for it.)

lukatron2
06-12-2007, 05:52 PM
just use helm of awakening...

Mijorre
06-13-2007, 06:32 AM
I honestly think the Helm build is less interesting to play with and even easier to disrupt.
Puzzle prefers it, I do not ^_^
I want to try optimising the red splash list, but I really am lacking playtest-time --;;

Xandercoon
06-13-2007, 09:44 AM
I think I'll try out a singleton Cunning Wish in that slot.
Hehe, you got your wish Mijorre ^_^ I too think the blue/red list will eventually turn out to be the optimal choice.
I keep finding new tech though: ... Gustha's Scepter...useful? Who woulda thunk it?

Puzzle
06-13-2007, 10:28 AM
I honestly think the Helm build is less interesting to play with and even easier to disrupt.
Puzzle prefers it, I do not ^_^
I want to try optimising the red splash list, but I really am lacking playtest-time --;;I have already acknowledged that Helm is indeed too dangerous in Legacy, as we are not fast enough compared to other decks to really make it work.
I'm still not fond of Drafna either though, because I feel the deck is working too much on card disadvantage.

What I'm looking at more and more is Locket of Yesterdays. It makes self-Freezing a bit more attractive, on top of optimizing Intuition, and opens doors to redundancy into a Sensei-Sensei kill and an Artificer's Intuition approach.

Mijorre
06-13-2007, 11:20 AM
Well, if we are going to do that, how about (just going crazy casual pondering here) using serra's sanctum and Mind over Matter in the UW replenish build?
We pitch our hand, bring back the enchantments, use Mind over Matter to untap the land and mill our library instead of thoughtlash and generate one HUGE amount of white mana, cunning wish for the Stroke and kill?

Well...that won't work, but it sure sounds hilarious ^_^. It's like Dragon, but horridly wonkey :D.

Trinket mage much, btw, in your version? Then you could run chalice and go for the anti-combo control deck.

Puzzle
06-13-2007, 11:41 AM
Well, if we are going to do that, how about (just going crazy casual pondering here) using serra's sanctum and Mind over Matter in the UW replenish build?
We pitch our hand, bring back the enchantments, use Mind over Matter to untap the land and mill our library instead of thoughtlash and generate one HUGE amount of white mana, cunning wish for the Stroke and kill?

Well...that won't work, but it sure sounds hilarious ^_^. It's like Dragon, but horridly wonkey :D.

Trinket mage much, btw, in your version? Then you could run chalice and go for the anti-combo control deck.I don't know for mine but you know what ? With Paradigm Shift instead of Drafna and (Impulse for Brainstorm although it may not play as well), you could run Chalice for 1 in Xandercoon's Version. It doesn't seem good like that but it's just a thought. I mentioned that mostly because Chalice at 1 hurts a few decks badly.

Solpugid
06-13-2007, 01:46 PM
If you wanted to set chalice at 1 you wouldn't have to remove brainstorm. It's so much better than impulse due to its cost and hand-filtering, and after you land a chalice you aren't even necessarily going to see another brainstorm in hand. And if you draw into one, it's unlikely it's necessary for the kill. In other words, I like the idea of chalice, but not of removing brainstorm.

Xandercoon
06-14-2007, 01:11 AM
I don't know for mine but you know what ? With Paradigm Shift instead of Drafna and (Impulse for Brainstorm although it may not play as well), you could run Chalice for 1 in Xandercoon's Version. It doesn't seem good like that but it's just a thought. I mentioned that mostly because Chalice at 1 hurts a few decks badly.
Paradigm Shift? You serious?
That feels a bit like swatting a fly with an ICBM.:cry:
Couldn't we talk about this over a nice hot cup of Second Sunrise instead?
You are right as far as running Chalice for one goes. But I feel that disabling Top shuts too many doors to going off.

Mijorre
06-14-2007, 05:10 AM
I generally go off without having to sensei into sensei for storm, I tend to go off with getting my entire graveyard worth of artifacts (generally 3 + 5 + 5 + 7) in replay mode in order to mill my opponent like hell.
But Chalice, in my build, is indeed not a good plan.

I have been tinkering around, but still am not satisfied with my current list (perfectionism), though I am liking the red splash. I am wondering though, drain power or mana short as wonkey 'need a chant but don't have faith in white mana production'?.
Mana short lets you time walk an opponent turn 2, drain power reads 'uu: counter me!'.

Xandercoon
06-14-2007, 08:36 AM
I think Remand would be more useful than Mana Short. Drain Power is funny and I always wanted to use it...maybe put it in mono-blue. Also: Piracy.

Mijorre
06-14-2007, 09:06 AM
Drain power (original image) just looks a lot better than Piracy ^_^
And don't we already run remand? *goes to check and update his list*

Xandercoon
06-19-2007, 06:29 PM
I thought I'd throw a few things out there.
1. Have we considered a black splash with Death Wish at all? The versatility of being able to fetch anything seems awesome, and we could run Duress + FoW, an awesome protection suite. I mean, it seems bad against Goblins, but not if we're fetching something like Moat...
2. With Intuition, is it possible to squeeze Accumulated Knowledge into the deck? At the moment its just a bad Demonic Tutor.
3. Sirocco. It kills Solidarity and helps us win against Thresh.

I am still testing, against GUW Thresh at the moment. I will post results when I get more games in.

Mijorre
06-21-2007, 07:36 PM
Solidarity isn't that much of a concern, since it is dropped from top tier.
Things that hurt our hated ***** are always great.
Intuition sets up replenish.
Death wish is not good. Too expensive to matter. Also: Life loss much?

Xenocide
09-15-2008, 06:19 PM
I am still testing, against GUW Thresh at the moment. I will post results when I get more games in.

Massive necro ftw.
This deck caught my eye a long time ago, and I have always held it in the back of my mind; I am planning on building it soon. I was wondering if there have been any advancements for the deck, or if it just doesn't stand a chance in today's metagame.
Also, those testing results that you were gonna post.... still waiting :P

EDIT: This really didn't have anything to do with the "your favorite bad deck" thread, I hadn't even seen that thread yet. It was just a coincidence.