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Atwa
06-11-2007, 07:10 PM
Introduction:

This deck has been lurking for a while on our team (IcBE) boards. It started out as some attempt to make a succesfull Zoo deck with black added. For a while it existed as a 4c Zoo list, when some members started to think about dropping green.

When toying with the WBR list (which was decent, but not really amazing), Anti~American suggested dropping white for blue. At first I thought he had lost his mind, but after playing a couple of games with his list for the hell of it, I saw some potential. I started to play it more and more and started to like it more everytime I played it.

We haven't done any refinement to the deck, since lack of time and other deck with more priority can cause a lot of damage to deckdesign. When I wanted to take the time again hulkflash became known, and since noone of us knew what was going to happen to Legacy, interest in the format started to slip. Some of us who were going to the GP canceled their trip, so there was no real need to develop it further.

Now the format has been restored and we havee regained interest in the format, we deceided to share the list with the public. It's hasn't been really refined yet, but it is sure a blast to play. We have other priorities at the moment, so let's everyone have some fun with the list.

Here is the list I use at the moment, which is pretty much the same list A~A posted:

Mana: (21)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Undergound Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Creatures: (22)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Rotting Giant
4 Serendib Efreet
4 Sea Drake
4 Sarcomancy
2 Carnophage

Other: (18)
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Night's Wisper
3 Chain Lightning
3 Umezuma's Jitte

Current changes I'm testing:
-4 Night's Wisper
+4 Brainstorm

It looks like a pile of crap (it is in fact, but it simply works for some reason). There are some nice sinergies in to though, and although it plays pretty straightforward, with some experience you can beat most opponents.

Explanations:

- First the mana base:
This deck really want acces to all colours. Playing lot's of duals is the solution to that, but it also opens you up to get beaten by some well timed wasteland. I included all 3 basics to avoid this, but playing more than 3 really fucks up your colour management. 9 Fetches seems over the top, but we really need to be able to get the colour mana we want and it is nessisairy to be able to attack with an early Rotting Giant.

- Creatures:
- Sarcomancy and Carnophage, are the most used 1 drops. You want to play as agressive as possible, and they are excilent blockers against goblins.
- Rotting Giant is a 3/3 for 2, which isn't bad. I know Watchwolf is the same without the drawback, but we cut both the colours (and multicoloured cards are a drawback all by themselves). It's also a zombie, so it helps against damage from Sarcomancy.
- Dark Confidant: Main draw engine of the deck. The cards most expensive in the deck cost 3, and we only play 8 of them. The damage isn't that much most of the time and it is the main target for blockers and removal.
- 3-mana fliers. These are the reason to play blue. In fact I think these are some of the best 3 drops we have in the game. Burning Tree Shaman and Troll Asctec are also very good, but they require too much of a colout comitment. they are also big fliers, which most decks lack.

- Others:
- Aether Vial. On of the strongest cards in the deck. Most beginhands have either a Vial, Bolt or Zombie in them, I almost always go for the Vial. Ever played 4 faerie stompy creaures in 2 turns (starting turn 4)? That kind of things win games.
- Bolts. they are mostly used to clear the board for your attackers, but other uses can always be found for them (Mages, Shade, Hyppie).
- Night's Wisper. The card I dislike the most in the deck. This will most likely be replaced with brainstorm (read below why this might be a bad idea)
- Jitte. We play fast creatures and we lose a lot of life, ideal card.

How to play the deck?
The idea of the deck is pretty forward. Play enough small creatures to overwhelm your opponent. Blast away any creatures which stands in the way and be willing to sacrifice 19 life when that's needed to win.

Note that the deck was first designed before the rise of combo decks (TES, CRET Belcher) and lacks a good game against combo. This deck will preform best in a european meta, in which almost no (good) combo is present.

The most important colours in the early game are black and red. Black since all your ground critters are black, and red te be able to deal with early blockers (or potentional treats). The dual you will be fetching the most for in the beginning is Badlands (obviously). This is also a reason why brainstorm won't work. You don't need the blue mana in the beginning. Getting you first blue land on turn 4 is no exception. If you expect to face a lot if wastelands, get the Swamp first.

On turn 3 your opponent is most likely are 14-16 life (depends on the route you took). After that try to cast a flyer or a Jitte to seal the game.

If you play a vial, try to get it at 3 as soon as possible. In turn 3 (vial at 2) you will most likely have some 2 drop and you'd really want play a non creature spell at that time (wisper or Jitte). Don't let it sit at 2, since you want to able te get some fliers in play for free. Cast the other 2 drops you might have and keep the vial at 3. A viled in Sea Drake saves land from destruction, and a Serendib is an excilent suprise blocker. Keeping the vial at 2 and draw a flier after that really sucks.

Don't be afraid to bolt an opponent in response of a Wasteland (using the targetted land). The damage does count, it gives you 2 cards to activate the Giant (which you really want) and with Wisper and Bob you'll draw a second soon enough.

Don't be afraid to lose life. There a lot of cards in the deck which deal damage to you, but most of the time they are more dangerous to your opponent then they are to you. Jitte is also a very good way to get some life back. Remember: Life is a recourse, just like your hand and library. As long as you have still one life when you beat your opponent, you still win.

Sideboard options:
First let's start with the sideboard A~A posted with the deck:

2 Pyroclasm
4 Rough // Tumble
4 Dystopia
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Sphere of Resistance

This sideboard was designed with a aggro, aggro/control, little combo meta in mind, before any testing was done.

Golbins is a very good matchup. 6 anti-goblins cards are too much ( wrote a piece of text abou the goblin machtup, I'll post it on the bottom of this post). I'd cut the 2 Pyroclasms and keep the splitcards. You don't cast Tumble that much, but it's nice to have the option to blow a Mystic Enforcer out of the sky.

Dystopia is a very nice card. Basicly I'd play this in any deck which plays black and no green or white. It hoses Threshold, Fish, Enchantress, Terrageddon, Zoo, Stompy, etc.

Chalice and Sphere were in the deck for the combo matchup, but I feel only 5 cards (in a deck of 76) is too little. I'd add the 4th Chalice and add maybe some Stifles, which are decent overall.

For my meta I'd suggest:
4 Dystopia
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Stifle
4 Rough // Tumble

For combo I'd side:
-4 Night's Wisper (against combo, you want direct results from your cards, not more dig)
-3 Chain Lightning
+4 Chalice
+3 Stifle

For Threshold:
-2 Carnophage
-3 Chain Lightning
-1 Umezuma's Jitte
-2 Rotting Giant
+4 Dystopia
+4 Chalice of the Void

For Goblins (and other pure aggro, like zoo):
-4 Night's Wisper
+4 Rough // Tumble

I hope you like the deck, proxy it up or type it into MWS and try it for a few games. I have a lot of fun with it, and I think you can have too. Please let me know how you feel.

PS: the post I made on our teamboards:

The maindeck is strong enough to hold the early race, and finish the job with some fliers. Game 2 (believe me, there won't be a game 3 that often), you can play with your feet, while rolling some sigarets, watching the game next to you more consentrated than your own match (scouting is important after all) and pleasuring your girlfriend (ok, I do play a lot MWS, getting this done at a GP will propably cause some weird looks) all at the same time.

It might not be that funny, but I felt it was when I posted it (if you think it isn't funny, sue me! It's my thread after all, I see none-funny jokes in almost every article I read)

Citrus-God
06-11-2007, 09:49 PM
I decided that I should look into the deck again. I made some changes. The changes I made so far off Atwa's list are

-4 Sarcomancy
-2 Carnophage
-1 Night's Whisper


+4 Mogg Fanatic
+1 Wooded Foothills
+2 Fact or Fiction


Simply put, FoF is nuts in this deck. In this deck, it always says "I win" when it resolves. With so many fetchlands and revelent cards, it makes FoF piles look like it has 3-5 threats usually when casted during midgame.

Bane of the Living
06-11-2007, 10:22 PM
Shouldnt a Zoo deck not get to 4 mana? Wouldnt a 4 mana spell be better if it actually killed the opponent should you get to that much?

Does Stifle ever hurt the deck since your dependant on fetchlands so much? Id figure Stifle + Daze would hurt this decks manabase alot.

How are the matchups against waste/port?

Citrus-God
06-11-2007, 10:43 PM
Shouldnt a Zoo deck not get to 4 mana? Wouldnt a 4 mana spell be better if it actually killed the opponent should you get to that much?

Yes, but this deck runs out of fuel quick. Against Thresh, this deck has tons of must-counters, and because of that, we resort to running win small draw spells to refill the hand and keep playing stuff. FoF is good at this because it gives us the leverage we need when they've wasted tons of resources on trying to stop our early assult.



Does Stifle ever hurt the deck since your dependant on fetchlands so much? Id figure Stifle + Daze would hurt this decks manabase alot.


Daze doesnt really.... Stifle probably does, but of course, the card that hurts this deck most is Pithing Needle on Vial. Our only outs are draw which gets us more lands to play more threats like Efreet. Daze wouldnt be much of a concern, but it's usuallt their choice to either let FoF or a flying threat resolve.


How are the matchups against waste/port?

You kinda always need Vial first turn.

Nydaeli
06-11-2007, 11:38 PM
Since you're running black and a bunch of creatures, some of which are small, I suggest running Cabal Therapy. Cut Whisper for it.

Chalice probably sucks in the board, since 1) you can't play it turn 1, and 2) you run several 1-drops.

Drake/Efreet are definitely good, but I think you need to lower your curve and maybe run 4-6 instead of 8.

Citrus-God
06-12-2007, 12:50 AM
Since you're running black and a bunch of creatures, some of which are small, I suggest running Cabal Therapy. Cut Whisper for it.

Chalice probably sucks in the board, since 1) you can't play it turn 1, and 2) you run several 1-drops.

Drake/Efreet are definitely good, but I think you need to lower your curve and maybe run 4-6 instead of 8.

ehh.... Blue Skies gets away with running 8 3cc fliers... so why cant we do so as well? It is what gives us the edge against Thresh and just about every aggro deck.

As for Nights Whisper, it should be kept in. What you should be doing if you're planning on adding Therapy to the maindeck is cut the FoFs and a Foothills.

Chalice is good in the deck. I hardly cared much for my 1cc guys when I already established beatdown on the board. It also doesnt need to come out Turn 1. It just needs to come out turn 2. TES doesnt always get the nut hand for Warrens/1st turn win, and IGGy Pop requires set up.

Iranon
06-12-2007, 05:36 AM
Night's Whispers and other draw spells look fantastically bad on paper, especially since Sea Drake can put a dent in your mana development. If your opponent managed to stabilise, most cards you draw into won't help much, and if they haven't something that impacts the game immediately would be better at keeping your lead.

I'd also cut Jitte down to 2 because it's legendary and Pithing Needle is the best answer to it anyway, but that's mostly a personal preference. It can win games almost on its own.

The free slots would probably go to the missing small zombies and more Burn to clear the way for the small fry.

It's worth keeping in mind that the combo match-up does look bad. Maybe you get a bonus because opponents will try to play around non-existing counter magic, but a couple of chalices are unlikely to be enough.

steffri666
06-13-2007, 03:41 AM
Hi everybody,

its my first post since I'm the standard example of the lurker... But anyway this deck and the idea behind it are quite interesting, I love the aggressive suicidal approach of it. I agree after some very minor testing that Night's Whisper feels out of place. I'd rather run more threats. I play Faerie Stompy for quite some time, most online, i dont get much real-life tournament practice over here in Germany. I think I played that deck as first person on magic-league, correct me if I'm wrong Eldariel, and since the beginning I am not satisfied with the low threat count and draw. This deck feels the same for me.
And I think its missing Negator, its just too powerful not to run, especially with Bolts.
I'm currently testing it in place of the draw but i run only 3, so I get to 60 cards. The curve gets slightly higher, but Vial is best set to 3 anyway.
Since the meta I play usually has very few combo decks, this seems a perfect fit. My current sideboard looks like this:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroclasm
3 Perish

I dont own Dystopias and I'm going to test that. I know Clasm and Negator is not teh tech, but I'm not sure the manabase can support Infest or if its too slow.
Oh and btw does any of you NoVa guys know the store The Outpost? I was living for 2 years in Herndon and playing there (2000-2002) Would be fun if I maybe know one of you guys.

thefreakaccident
06-13-2007, 04:04 AM
your sideboard looks interesting... nothing out of the ordinary... but perish looks iffy (seeing as it is only good against like 3 decks)... you have challice for thresh, and you probably want crypt for other grave based decks as well.

Citrus-God
06-13-2007, 04:33 AM
Hi everybody,

its my first post since I'm the standard example of the lurker... But anyway this deck and the idea behind it are quite interesting, I love the aggressive suicidal approach of it. I agree after some very minor testing that Night's Whisper feels out of place. I'd rather run more threats. I play Faerie Stompy for quite some time, most online, i dont get much real-life tournament practice over here in Germany. I think I played that deck as first person on magic-league, correct me if I'm wrong Eldariel, and since the beginning I am not satisfied with the low threat count and draw. This deck feels the same for me.
And I think its missing Negator, its just too powerful not to run, especially with Bolts.
I'm currently testing it in place of the draw but i run only 3, so I get to 60 cards. The curve gets slightly higher, but Vial is best set to 3 anyway.
Since the meta I play usually has very few combo decks, this seems a perfect fit. My current sideboard looks like this:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Pyroclasm
3 Perish

I dont own Dystopias and I'm going to test that. I know Clasm and Negator is not teh tech, but I'm not sure the manabase can support Infest or if its too slow.
Oh and btw does any of you NoVa guys know the store The Outpost? I was living for 2 years in Herndon and playing there (2000-2002) Would be fun if I maybe know one of you guys.

I'm sure you know about Sea Drake's ability being canclled when Vialed out. What I'm trying to say is, if you dont like Night's Whisper, you still need a draw engine. I'd recommend Shadowmage Infiltrator in that slot if you feel Night's Whisper isnt doing any good for you. It's a Jitte buddy, evasive, and an actual threat.

We're not running Negator simply because this deck doesnt live by the Suicide Philosophy. It's called Sui, but in our team boards, the deck was known as "NooZoo." It was to abuse Vial and draw really.

steffri666
06-13-2007, 04:42 AM
I dont get what you mean with the Drake's ability cancelled by vial, I mean what does have to do with card drawing? I may just not get it... Oh and btw why does it get cancelled? I mean oracle says not "from your hand" ?
I think Confidant is enough draw and with Negator in place of Infilitrator you dont need many cards it just kills. In my little experience I hurt myself pretty bad with the deck, it did feel very suicidal to me and so I thought come on Negator. I can see both approaches working but to me Infiltrator is not a real threat, when it draws you only into a big dude at best, I'd rather play that big dude instead of him.

The sideboard is "iffy" I just threw that together and here are so many Thresh, RG beatz, Survival and Elves around its quite useful but by no means does it have to stay.

Citrus-God
06-13-2007, 05:59 AM
I dont get what you mean with the Drake's ability cancelled by vial, I mean what does have to do with card drawing?

Nothing, I'm just saying that card draw is vital to the deck's success. We would've ran Standstill if we wanted to cut Red from the deck entirely for Factories.

As for the oracle text, you're right. I was going by the old text, but w/e.


I think Confidant is enough draw and with Negator in place of Infilitrator you dont need many cards it just kills.

You can try Negator. I wouldnt recommend it, but I just dont see it being good in place of something that plays such an important part of the deck.


In my little experience I hurt myself pretty bad with the deck, it did feel very suicidal to me and so I thought come on Negator. I can see both approaches working but to me Infiltrator is not a real threat, when it draws you only into a big dude at best, I'd rather play that big dude instead of him.

ehh.... I saw it more as Ghazi Glare. It has tons of traps for the combat step, and tons of control. This deck, imo, is more of a midgame deck. I think you've made a decent approach to the deck though, so keep posting back with results. But IMO, Flametongue Kavu would be better than Negator.


The sideboard is "iffy" I just threw that together and here are so many Thresh, RG beatz, Survival and Elves around its quite useful but by no means does it have to stay.

Against so many Green decks, Perish is not a bad choice. Dystopia is good too, but IMO, Perish is better against decks like Survival and Elves.

Atwa
06-13-2007, 05:00 PM
Wow, already a lot of replies, that's nice. Let's answers some questions:

@Bane:
I agree with you. The most expensive spell in the deck should cost no more than 3 mana and much be able to get into play without paying for it (a creature via vial). Fact or Fiction is very strong in the deck, but you have issues casting it. People do still play cards like wasteland, sinkhole and armageddon.

@Nydaeli:
Cabal Therapy is one of the last cards I'd play in this deck. You have only one route of victory in this deck, which is playing beatdown with small creatures. In no point in the game you can afford losing the pressure you are putting on your opponent. It looks cool, but falls to the 'danger of cool things'.

The first time you cast it, it is ofter worse than playing a Duress (at least during the combo-matchup, which is the only matchup during which you want to play the spell). If you need the flashback, it often means you aren't winning, in which case you'll need every creature you can get. If you have too much small creatures, you often don't need to make an opponent discard a card, since you're already winning.

Also, Chalice is pretty decent. Against Threshold you can lay it down on 1 to shut almost the whole deck down and against combo you can shut down their free mana when putting it down without the counters. You are free to change the side to make it fit for your own meta off course.

@Iranon:
I am testing Brainstorm in the deck instead of Night's Wisper at the moment. It works fine at the moment, but I am still afraid it might lead into wrong fetching, since you now have 1-drops in all colours. 3 Jitte's is fine. The first card a (smart) opponent is going to take down with a Needle is Vial. The Jitte isn't that much of a big deal for me.

Jitte is also more a target for real removal (after a few turns). 3 of them makes sure (most of the time) you get another later in the game.

@steffri666:
Welcome to these boards, hope you like it here. About your comments: I've tested Negator in the deck and even if it's really strong, after 3 turns your opponents will have answers for them. Negator is best played in a deck when playing Dark Ritual. Since I don't play any, Negator is often too late to make an impact big enough to play it. If you like it however, keep playing it. I'd really like to hear your results.

About the sideboard: It looks decent. I'd change the Perishes for Dystopia's when you can, since it's good against both white and green. Perish is stronger against decks like Survival, but really lacks against Angel Stompy and Enchantress. I guess it depends on preference and metagaming.

And Finally @A~A:
I see you've taken the deck in a slightly different direction than I have. Please keep us posted how your changes work out. Myself I feel Brainstorm is better than FoF, but that could be just me.

Bane of the Living
06-13-2007, 06:07 PM
Its not just you, Brainstorm is way better than FoF. You just shouldnt be getting to four mana with this deck. If you are just cut a couple lands and the FoF's for more cheap threats.

Chalice is a terrible idea and the arguement supporting it seems to be based around "stop tes". This is where you sb Stifle! Tes wont want to bring hand hate in against you or xantids. They'll likely go with Dark Confidant and stick to the storm plan. Stifle gets them where it hurts the most and acts as 1cc land destruction against decks far too reliant on tempo.

I think Negs deserves another look. Keeping on track with black isnt a bad thing. If you run enough black spells Dark Ritual can fit and compliments early Jitte quite well. Here is my refined list of B/U/R zoo..

Mana: (20)
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Undergound Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures: (21)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Rotting Giant
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Sea Drake
4 Sarcomancy
2 Carnophage

Other: (19)
4 Aether Vial
3 Dark Ritual
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Stifle
3 Chain Lightning
2 Umezawa's Jitte

I dont see a need for the basic mountain with only 7 red spells remaining. Ritual lets you cut a land and the explosive hands should make up for the random dead ritual off the top.

Ritual will help cast Engineered Plague which is very important for you vs port/waste. The goblins matchup is pretty bad. 7 sb cards should help.

Stifle helps shore it up by cutting off SGC or Ringleader triggers and it allows you to Stifle the Negator's trigger as well. I dont think Brainstorm is as important as a maindeck answer to combo.

SB
2 Umezawas Jitte
2 Pyroclasm
4 REB
4 Tormods Crypt
3 Engineered Plague

REB is in the board against Solidarity. Im not sure what to do about Tarmagofy however..

Citrus-God
06-14-2007, 04:45 AM
Perish... I heard that and Dystopia are good in the Sideboard versus Thresh.
REB should also be Discard, which is flexible against Ritual Combo as well.

Stifle is interesting. I might MD those and run Trickbinds in the board.

steffri666
06-14-2007, 05:08 AM
Yesterday I did some more testing with Negator and I really like it. Sure I'd love to ritual it out first turn but IMO its still a threat that *must* be answered even turn 3. Besides if they can answer negator they can answer any of the fliers as well. There is some exceptions of course, first strikers and that.
I think I will go up to 4 and cut 1 Sea Drake. The drawback of Sea Drake is very relevant here you can't play around that like in Faerie Stompy. I'd never cut Efreets and leave Drakes in. They don't hinder your mana employment and are bolt proof. IMO better in this deck.

Rituals are interesting but feel a bit iffy as a 3of, there is no use whatsoever for late game rituals and to be sure to have it in your opening 7 you should run 4. IMO it doesnt fit a 3 color deck, but test it out and let us know.

About Therapy: I only run it in the board and it would come in only against combo, its possible its worse than Duress but with Negators and Drakes games end quickly I am definitly positive about sacking a zombie for Therapy. Also in my Meta there is not much Combo around and I feel if Combo runs rampant in yours this is not the deck to play.

Stifle is an excellent option I didn't think of first. I'm probably trying that one out. Also there is no artifact hate in the board, I just lost against a random stax/ensnaring bridge sort of thing, just something to remember.

Bane of the Living
06-15-2007, 07:58 PM
Rituals are interesting but feel a bit iffy as a 3of, there is no use whatsoever for late game rituals and to be sure to have it in your opening 7 you should run 4. IMO it doesnt fit a 3 color deck, but test it out and let us know.

Stifle is an excellent option I didn't think of first. I'm probably trying that one out. Also there is no artifact hate in the board, I just lost against a random stax/ensnaring bridge sort of thing, just something to remember.

Your probably right about Serendib over the Sea Drakes so lets go ahead and just offer him up the spot. Concerning Dark Ritual, the name of the deck is Suicide Zoo. Ive never played any suicide deck without ritual. The creators of the deck already made not of the importance vial plays in the deck. Without Vial your really up shit creek since dropping these dudes fairly is 'too fair' for legacy. Dark Ritual altho only played as a 3 of is basically giving you 7 options to turbo out as opposed to 4. Going up to 8 total might be too much since drawing 3-4 of this combination will lose you the game. At 7 Id assume its same to say you'll see about 2/7, hopefully vial and ritual each..

Just so we're on track here about playing rit in a 3 color deck..

Black/Artifact-27
Blue-6
Red-7

I think its safe to assume Ritual has places to put its black mana. You can easily cast Negator + Stifle or Rotting Giant + Bob or something on turn two.

Like I said Engineered Plauge is so much better against gobs and very needed. Pyroclasm kills too many of your own men. Ritual helps bring it out rather than make it irrelevant.

Ritual allows plays such as turn one Carnophage + Jitte, turn 2 equip + win.

@AA
Stifle maindeck, Trickbind sb sounds very solid and gives you not only a nice weapon against combo but a great package against decks running their own heavy suppliment of fetchlands.

Citrus-God
06-16-2007, 02:26 AM
@AA
Stifle maindeck, Trickbind sb sounds very solid and gives you not only a nice weapon against combo but a great package against decks running their own heavy suppliment of fetchlands.


Trickbind is a bomb against combo. We kinda also need the Therapies because TES is running MDed Duress and SBed Therapies. It can also get Stifles and Trickbinds to resolve.