[Deck] Secret Force

[AikawaK]

Hi all! I've got a Secret Force deck and I would like to ask if there are new cards that would fit in it (stopped playing magic a couple of years ago). I've browsed through the new sets and found really interesting cards. First of all, I'll post my current deck:

16x Forest
3x Gaea's Cradle

4x Llanowar elves
4x Fyndhorn elves
3x Rofellos, Llanowar emissary
4x Wall of roots
3x Yavimaya elder
3x Spike weaver
3x Ravenous Baloth
3x Verdant Force
2x Vidirian Zealot
2x Masticore

4x Natural Order
2x Overrun
2x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Slate of ancestry


There are some changes I've thought about:

+4 Birds of Paradise
-4 elves

+1 Simic sky swallower
-1 Verdant Force

+4 Living Wish
-2 Overrun
-2 Slate of Ancestry

? Viridian Zealot / Trygon Predator / Indrik Stomphowler ?

? Loxodon Hierarch / Ravenous Baloth ?

If I end up with both simic sky swallower and trygon predator, I'd also add some Tropical Islands.


Finally, I don't have a sideboard. And I need one, specially if I bring Living Wish in. Some creatures I've thought that could be good to have in a SB are:
Xantid Swarm
Tornado Elemental
Viridian Zealot / Trygon Predator / Indrik Stomphowler
A Beater like another verdant or simic sky swallower
Quitting a Masticore from the deck and leaving it in the sb...but I don't know what to put in the maindeck for it!



That's all. Thank you everyone for reading this :)

[jamp07]

For enchantent and artifact destruction nothing better than krosan grip.

Use the loxodon instead of the baloth, it could save your creatures from things like pyroclasm or wild fires.

You could also consider playing sunscape familiar, -1 on the spells price is very helpful.

[AngryTroll]

I love Secret Force. Its been a pet deck for a long time...but I don't think I actually have it built at the moment.

I would probably leave the Masticores in the main. With Gaea's Cradle and Rofellos, he should be a regenerating machine gun all the time, which is great. He may be overkill with Jitte, Wall of Blossoms and Spike Weaver, but he is strong enough to stay, I think.

Simic Sky Swallower is great. Verdant Force is one of my favorites, because he's "The Best Super-Fatty Ever Printed", as Jamie Wakefield put it.

One thing to remember about Birds is that they do not activate Jitte. If you splash a color and feel that you need the mana consistency, then Birds it is. But if you stay one color, the only way they activate Jitte is with a Spike +1/+1 counter, so the Elves are better.

I really like Sisters of Stone Death, but that requires a black splash. Black gives you Duress, Cabal Therapy, and even Putrefy. However, it makes the land base a lot more expensive.

Blue lets you hardcast Simic Sky Swallower, and gives you Brainstorm, the other cantrips like Serum Visions and Portent, or a card like Impulse to search up Natural Order. You can even run some Mystic Snakes, which would just be awesome, but not necessarily any good. Trygon Predator in the sideboard would probably be pretty solid.

Harmonize could be considered in the Ancestral Slate spot, but I don't know if it would be any better. It would be better if you are facing mass removal, and it only costs 4, but other then that, the Slate will draw a lot more cards.

[greenmage]

I have a similar deck (somewhat) and really like the incredible risky magus of the vineyard.
In your deck it would make: 2turn natural order, 2turn jitte+equip, 2nd turn masticore, 2nd turn baloth

And SSS is extremely good in this type of deck. You must run it!

[Reverend Damaged]

Hi there. I've actually posted a deck similar to this (3 color - running Simic Sky Swallower and Loxodon Hierarch). The deck list is here:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3952&highlight=Dragonforce



If you work with the blue/white splash, it opens up possibilities for removal and search such as Brainstorm and STP. Several new sets have come out since I've posted that list and I will be retooling it soon. Just wanted to show you, as I put a lot of time and thought into it and the people who have replied made many valid points and prime suggestions that could be helpful to you.

[thefreakaccident]

If you are going to be looking at the blue splash, you may look into running some protection in the form of countermagic, namely daze and fow... you have no protection MD that I can see, so I can see the blue splash being a very good thing for the deck overall.

[greenmage]

protean hulk is an insane good search target. Protects from mass removal and also loves to die the conventional ways. And yeah, it is possible to make a combo deck out of secret force if you are into that kind of thing.

Black splash also gives you deed. Just sayin' because angry troll didn't name it.

[Silthyn]

I've been tinkering with a Mono-G Secret Force list lately. I think it's gotten some great cards:

// Lands
5 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
3 Ancient Tomb

// Creatures
3 Spike Weaver
4 Wall of Blossoms
4 Ravenous Baloth (Wren's Run Packmaster after Lorwyn becomes legal)
2 Verdant Force
4 Wall of Roots
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Magus of the Vineyard

// Spells
4 Sylvan Library
4 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
SB: 1 Spike Weaver
SB: 1 Simic Sky Swallower
SB: 2 Crop Rotation
SB: 4 City of Solitude
SB: 4 Spike Feeder

Card choices:
Boseiju, Who Shelters All: I run one of these maindeck against counter-heavy decks, Threshold, Solidarity, etc. Fetchable with Crop Rotation.
Spike Weaver: Stalls the game against Goblins, Threshold, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast and any other deck with creatures as it's main wincon.
Wall of Blossoms: You get a 0/4 wall that lets you draw a card. Not much to say here.
Ravenous Baloth: Big body, can be sacrificed to gain some life. This card will be replaced with:
Wren's Run Packmaster: This card is kind of insane. Play it on your second/third turn and start pumping out 2/2 Deathtouch wolves! Great synergy with Gaea's Cradle, but the number of Elves run in this deck might make it a 2-3 of?
Verdant Force: Fetchable with Natural Order (duh). This is your main wincondition.
Simic Sky Swallower: Fetchable with Natural Order (duh). If your opponent runs StP (read: white), just fetch this instead of the Force.
Magus of the Vineyard: A new addition to the deck. Allows you to get that turn two Natural Order you always wanted. However, it gives your opponent mana, so maybe Elvish Spirit Guide is better in this slot?
Sylvan Library: Might be a little overkill with 4 of these, but it really helps finding your Natural Order. Good synergy with the Fetches also.
Crop Rotation: Fetches Boseiju or the Cradle.

The sideboard is not opted yet, but one great card worth noticing is City of Solitude, which is great against counter-heavy decks, like Boseiju.

I think that the Packmaster needs more elves, since I only run 8 of them at the moment. Maybe Boreal Druid should be included?

The deck needs something for the combomatchup also. Chalice of the Void/EE/Powder Keg in the sideboard perhaps?

[insertnamehere]

A while back I ran a deck somewhat similar to this using Mox Diamonds for acceleration along with City of Traitors for a second turn skyswallower.
It went like this
Land,Diamond, bird ,Q. Ranger
Turn 2
Tap bird forest and diamond bounce forest to untap bird play forest tap (4 Green mana) play Natural Order and win.

[Silthyn]

A while back I ran a deck somewhat similar to this using Mox Diamonds for acceleration along with City of Traitors for a second turn skyswallower.
It went like this
Land,Diamond, bird ,Q. Ranger
Turn 2
Tap bird forest and diamond bounce forest to untap bird play forest tap (4 Green mana) play Natural Order and win.

My version is cabable of such plays too:

Turn 1: Forest, Magus of the Vineyard.
Turn 2: Forest, Natural Order.

Turn 1: Forest, Llanowar Elves.
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Natural Order.

[Iranon]

Hello, and good luck with the deck!

If you've been out of the format for a long time, it might be worth mentioning that combo decks have become quite fast and consistent and should be nightmarish match-ups for you.

I'm not sure whether you'd want an extensive anti-combo sideboard (a white splash opens up several interesting options, but Chalice of the Void and Engineered explosives are fair cards as well) or whether it would be more prudent to accept that you lose to them and devote the space to more manageable match-ups.

[insertnamehere]

My version is cabable of such plays too:

Turn 1: Forest, Magus of the Vineyard.
Turn 2: Forest, Natural Order.

Turn 1: Forest, Llanowar Elves.
Turn 2: Ancient Tomb, Natural Order.

The only problem with maguc is your opponent has 3 mana on his first turn if you go first or 4 on turn 2. better acceleration for him. Way too much of a disadvantage for you.

[Silthyn]

Hello, and good luck with the deck!

If you've been out of the format for a long time, it might be worth mentioning that combo decks have become quite fast and consistent and should be nightmarish match-ups for you.

I'm not sure whether you'd want an extensive anti-combo sideboard (a white splash opens up several interesting options, but Chalice of the Void and Engineered explosives are fair cards as well) or whether it would be more prudent to accept that you lose to them and devote the space to more manageable match-ups.

I'm well aware that there's been alot of combodecks lately, CRET Belcher, Ichorid, Cephalid Breakfast, TES etc etc. Right now, I've accepted that I lose to them. I think I'll be running 3-4x Tormod's Crypt against Ichorid and Cephalid Breakfast and 3-4x Chalice of the Void against TES (is the right number 1 or 2?) and IGGy Pop (same question). I'm not sure that's enough though, so it's maybe better to just accept the defeat? :D


The only problem with maguc is your opponent has 3 mana on his first turn if you go first or 4 on turn 2. better acceleration for him. Way too much of a disadvantage for you.

That's why I think of running Elvish Spirit Guides instead. They allow the same turn 2 Orders, but they don't give any advantage to your opponent and they work wonders against Daze.

[Maveric78f]

I'm lazy I know, but here is my reading of the thread

It's a green deck, so I did a research on tarmo and on goyf... no response. Why on earth ?

It's a blue splashed deck running more than 25 creatures, so I did a research on opposition and on fecundity... no response. Why on earth ?

It's a mana heavy deck running less than 18 lands, so I did a research on winter orb... no response. Why on earth ? Well actually you run more than 18 lands but why ???

You're not playing vials, quirion rangers neither. It's really surprising.

Actually I did a lot of research on opposition/order decks. It appeared to me that order was too slow. The best play may be to search for SSS or phantom nishoba. Sometimes verdant force can be good but it's rare. But even if you order on turn 2, which is quite easily possible, it's a poor tech because you're highly likely to be counterspelled or even dazed, and because you will kill only 3 turns later, if everything goes well. Opposition however is very good as it locks on the turn it comes into play (or 1 turn later if you're full tap) and having opposition countered is not card disadvantage.

[Silthyn]

I'm lazy I know, but here is my reading of the thread

It's a green deck, so I did a research on tarmo and on goyf... no response. Why on earth ?

It's a blue splashed deck running more than 25 creatures, so I did a research on opposition and on fecundity... no response. Why on earth ?

It's a mana heavy deck running less than 18 lands, so I did a research on winter orb... no response. Why on earth ? Well actually you run more than 18 lands but why ???

You're not playing vials, quirion rangers neither. It's really surprising.

Actually I did a lot of research on opposition/order decks. It appeared to me that order was too slow. The best play may be to search for SSS or phantom nishoba. Sometimes verdant force can be good but it's rare. But even if you order on turn 2, which is quite easily possible, it's a poor tech because you're highly likely to be counterspelled or even dazed, and because you will kill only 3 turns later, if everything goes well. Opposition however is very good as it locks on the turn it comes into play (or 1 turn later if you're full tap) and having opposition countered is not card disadvantage.

If I did splash blue, I would probably try Opposition and Goyf. And I'm not playing 18 lands, I play 20, and 6 of those generally produces more than one mana. Were you talking about the other lists above?
When you play this deck, you have to realise that this isn't about resolving a Natural Order. Sure, it helps, but with the addition of Packmasters, you got some nice beatdown in the middle game.

Quirion Ranger is good, I suppose, and it's an elf for the Wren's Run Packmaster. I'll try it out.

This deck wants to run utility-creatures, and Tarmogoyf is just a vanilla creature. It won't grow that big either. That, and it's expensive as hell right now.

[vigilante]

It's really surprising.The lack of Tarmogoyf, Opposition, Fecundity, Winter Orb, Aether Vials and Quirion Rangers here is not surprising in the slightest. None of those cards are particularly useful in a Secret Force deck. Your suggestions, if implemented, would force the deck in a completely different direction -- that being, towards your "Forest & Creatures" deck.

I reckon if these people wanted to play your deck, they probably wouldn't have posted here in a separate thread.

[Maveric78f]

I was afraid of getting such a remark as the one you did vigilante. I was bringing ideas. I really don't understand the lack of ANY of those cards, and most of all why it has not even been discussed, particularly tarmogoyf (I don't see why you should be running blue if you wanted to play it), and quirion ranger which saves your lands, and give vigilance to any of your creatures. Fecundity would also fit very well in a deck playing Spike Weaver, Viridian Zealot and Baloth.

[Silthyn]

I was afraid of getting such a remark as the one you did vigilante. I was bringing ideas. I really don't understand the lack of ANY of those cards, and most of all why it has not even been discussed, particularly tarmogoyf (I don't see why you should be running blue if you wanted to play it), and quirion ranger which saves your lands, and give vigilance to any of your creatures. Fecundity would also fit very well in a deck playing Spike Weaver, Viridian Zealot and Baloth.

If you're splashing blue, you can play more cantrips, which equals to a bigger Tarmogoyf.

Fecundity sucks. Really.

[Maveric78f]

Don't you understand that you have no interest to play cards in order to pump up Tarmogoyf, as you will at the same time pump up your opponent's Tarmogoyfs ? You may play Tarmogoyf and not want Tarmogoyf to be a 6/7. Especially in your deck, you don't want it more than 3/4, but a 3/4 for 1G is still a very good trade, that's why you SHOULD play it.

I don't know if fecundity sucks when you face a WoG or a deed. fecundity does nothing by itself but it's a bit like a life insurance.

[Silthyn]

Don't you understand that you have no interest to play cards in order to pump up Tarmogoyf, as you will at the same time pump up your opponent's Tarmogoyfs ? You may play Tarmogoyf and not want Tarmogoyf to be a 6/7. Especially in your deck, you don't want it more than 3/4, but a 3/4 for 1G is still a very good trade, that's why you SHOULD play it.

I don't know if fecundity sucks when you face a WoG or a deed. fecundity does nothing by itself but it's a bit like a life insurance.

Not everyone plays Tarmogoyf, especially not here :D

The biggest reason why I would play the Goyf is to neutralize my opponents Goyfs, and maybe get an undercosted creature into play. But why do I need to worry about my opponents Tarmogoyf, when I play Walls, 7/7:s, 6/6:s, 5/5:s that produces wolves with Deathtouch? Why do I need 3/4:s that doesn't do anything?

[Maveric78f]

For the moment, I just see 2 7/7 which cost 8 to cast (or 4 + a creature sacrifice) in your build. That's not a threat for anybody.

How strange...

[Silthyn]

For the moment, I just see 2 7/7 which cost 8 to cast (or 4 + a creature sacrifice) in your build. That's not a threat for anybody.

How strange...

I think you missed the 8 walls (4 who cantrips), the 3-Fog-Weavers and the Packmasters (well, soon) that produces Deathtouch Wolves. And how is a 7/7 that produces tons of Saprolings not a threat to anybody? Do you think Threshold will just ignore it, if it comes into play?

How strange...

[paragon22]

Here are some thoughts on Mono Green Secret Force:

I used to play this deck in old Extended and always had a blast with it. It'd be awesome if it could compete in Legacy today.

Brian Davis piloted this deck back in 2002 at Pro Tour Nice, and I played a similar version back then (I can't remember my own list, but it was close to his). Anyway here's the list which of course is completely outdated, but which can at least give us a starting point.

Land (21)

13 Forest
4 Wasteland
3 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dust Bowl

Creatures (35)

4 Deranged Hermit
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Priest of Titania
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wall Of Roots
3 Uktabi Orangutan
3 Elvish Lyrist
2 Masticore
2 Rofellos
1 Woodripper
1 Verdant Force
1 Squallmonger
1 Spike Weaver
1 Skyshroud Poacher

Other (4)

4 Natural Order

the sideboard had Chokes, Powder Keg, and more Artifact and Enchantment destruction

I haven't played Secret Force at all in Legacy, but based on my experiences with the deck in Extended I can say that Deranged Hermit is pretty much the MVP of the deck.
I don't know about Quirion Ranger, though. I never used that card.

For a Legacy deck, I'd definitely add Troll Ascetic and 3x Sword of Fire and Ice. I'd probably also add some Ravenous Baloths and a singleton Eternal Witness and Viridian Zealot.

I think the best acceleration base is:
3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wall of Roots
4 llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
2-3 Rofellos

In Legacy I'd try to keep the Elf count to a minimum because of Engineered Plague. Remember it's not Elves! but a midrange green deck.

Also, what do you think about running 4 Skyshroud Poacher? You can grab Deranged Hermits and your singleton Elves.

Is Verdant Force still the best Green fattie?

[94teen]

I would be tempted to say that Simic Sky Swallower beats out Verdant Force in the current metagame. It dodges all the spot removal and most board sweepers that are being played due to 'Goyf. Which this deck should run.

[greenmage]

I have a secret force deviation that I have developed for a long time and that has done really good at my meta.
I've cut magus of the vineyard because it was incredible bad against gobos and also against some other decks.
The heartwood storytellers I play momentarily are there for testing purposes. Thresh is a problem matchup for me. Xantid swarm would be good in the UGW match, but they are close to useless against UGR, where cards like the storyteller are more efficient.

4birds of paradise
2elves of deep shadow
3llanowar elves
1carrion feeder
4wall of roots
3nantuko husk
3phyrexian ghoul
3heartwood storyteller
1simic sky swallower
1body snatcher
1karmic guide
1kiki-jiki, mirror breaker
2protean hulk
-
3living wish
4natural order
4pattern of rebirth
-
1phyrexian tower
3gaea's cradle
4wooded foothills
2windswept heath
4bayou
4forest
2savannah
-
SB:
1uktabi orangutan
1carrion feeder
1academy rector
1shriekmaw
1tarmogoyf
4orim's chant
4leyline of the void
1gaea's cradle
1phyrexian tower

[Cavius The Great]

Has anyone considered Despotic Scepter as a sac outlet?

[greenmage]

I think you missed the 8 walls (4 who cantrips), the 3-Fog-Weavers and the Packmasters (well, soon) that produces Deathtouch Wolves. And how is a 7/7 that produces tons of Saprolings not a threat to anybody? Do you think Threshold will just ignore it, if it comes into play?
UGW version can sword it, as can other control decks. Verdant force is good, but in my experience SSS is better.

Has anyone considered Despotic Scepter as a sac outlet?
It's very much worse than phyrexian tower. Even in a non-black deck the tower is better almost every time.

Anyone considered garruk? Seems like a very nice fit in a mindrange deck with cradle and/or ancient tomb.

[Cavius The Great]

UGW version can sword it, as can other control decks. Verdant force is good, but in my experience SSS is better.

It's very much worse than phyrexian tower. Even in a non-black deck the tower is better almost every time.

Anyone considered garruk? Seems like a very nice fit in a mindrange deck with cradle and/or ancient tomb.

Do you just take mana burn from the Tower? What do you use the mana on? Maybe Diamond Valley would be better.

[greenmage]

The probability that the mana comes in handy to cast a spell is far greater than the probability to suffer mana burn. And even if you need to take mana burn, it's unlikely to affect the game state too much.

I doubt the extra life point would have any relevant effect on the game state whatsoever. The extra mana of the tower however helped me quite a few times to win the game.

I'd run more towers if my deck wasn't three coloured. The cradles are still better, and I can only afford so much slots for not colour producing lands.

[Guevera59]

Why not try Living Hive instead of Verdant Force. He produces tokens much quicker and is much more of a threat, especially with trample.

[Banelich]

I've had a similar deck to this as well, no verdants, prior to sky swallower, and as Guevera mentioned ....Living Hive, it also had 3x Berserks & 3x Echoing Courage which played out way faster than tests with Overrun.

Swallowers might be a better bet now days but if you go with hive or stick with Verdant, you definately should test with Echoing C.

[insertnamehere]

What about splashing Black for carrion Feeder and Nantuko Husk. You could run Protean Hulk, sac him and bring out 3 Tarmogoyf's

[Happy Gilmore]

What about splashing Black for carrion Feeder and Nantuko Husk. You could run Protean Hulk, sac him and bring out 3 Tarmogoyf's

You might as well run the Kiki, Karmic Guide, Feeder Combo then since it saves you on slots. With cabal Therapy instead of husk.

[greenmage]

You might as well run the Kiki, Karmic Guide, Feeder Combo then since it saves you on slots. With cabal Therapy instead of husk.

That's similar to what I posted above.

The thing with therapy is, it is not a repeatable sac' engine and doesn't work with my other combo engine, pattern. I also have no duress or thoughtseize to support the therapy, which often has as consequence card disadvantage. Having a lot of creatures is also nice because pattern targets are important, and feeders, cradle, phyrexian tower and my sac' critters require a high creature count.


What about splashing Black for carrion Feeder and Nantuko Husk. You could run Protean Hulk, sac him and bring out 3 Tarmogoyf's

In a less combo oriented build certainly a good idea...

With the patterns, the orders, creatures and lands you already have 4 different card types. And your opponent will most likely "donate" the type instant.

Some thoughtseizes, wishes, ghouls/husks, natural order pattern, therapies, big beef, etc., sounds like a decent aggro/control deck that can win fast with unblocked ghoul/huskies (pattern critter>hulk>6 small critters=18dmg!).

Carrion feeders are however pretty weak in creature combat. Husks and ghouls are way more useful in my experience (above combo version). Winning despite active jitte is with a nantuko husk and a few small critters not an impossible feat...