[Question 4] Where is Solidarity?

[Peter_Rotten]

Originally posted by Xero

How did Solidarity go from a clear Tier 1 deck to barely played? Has the deck lost popularity because it is difficult to play? Has it been replaced by other storm combos? Did people simply get bored of it? Essentially, why is it not putting up the results it used to put up?

Side note: Here's an excellent thread (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6037) which may help you reflect on the question.

[Tacosnape]

How did Solidarity go from a clear Tier 1 deck to barely played?

It didn't exactly do this. It went from a barely played Tier 1 deck to a barely played garbage deck. Solidarity was never all that widely played to begin with.


Has the deck lost popularity because it is difficult to play?

I think this is a large reason it never got more people playing it than it did. I've lent out my Solidarity deck to everyone in our entire metagame. Nobody, even several year veteran players who are experts, can play it properly except me. And I still make mistakes from time to time on it, and I've been playing it for almost a year and a half. A lot of people give up on the deck and dismiss it as being overrated when really it's their own play mistakes that cause the poor results.


Has it been replaced by other storm combos?

Absolutely.

Solidarity's strength was always that it had outs. It had ways to deal with almost every problem imaginable. It could ignore almost everything and bounce, counter, or play around what it couldn't ignore. It could rebound from Duress and Therapy like they weren't there, and barrel through hands full of countermagic almost effortlessly.

Now, however, Combo decks have a different, stronger strategy. All the hate that Solidarity beat by being resilient, modern combo beats by being faster than. Why play a deck that comboes out on turn 4-6 when you can drop 10-16 Goblin tokens before your opponent gets a move?

Defensive strategies are only valid when they're clearly stronger than the offensive strategies, and right now, this is anything but the case. Right now, Empty the Warrens combo is the way to go.


Essentially, why is it not putting up the results it used to put up?

Solidarity will likely make a minor comeback once the metagame has adjusted more heavily to dealing with fast combo, as Solidarity rarely suffers from such anti-combo pieces. Belcher hate like Stifle, Pithing Needle, and Engineered Explosives are incredibly weak against Solidarity, and Solidarity is the one of the only combo decks around to boast strength against Stifle. TES and Iggy Pop hate like Chalice of the Void is effective against Solidarity, but only to a small degree. Cards like Null Rod are useless, and Orim's Chant is barely any more effective than Stifle.

Solidarity won't truly hit its resurgence until Meddling Mage dwindles in popularity, though, as Solidarity players fear Meddling Mage. Most people won't run a combo deck that doesn't consistently beat Goblins, which I think is why The Red Tide never caught on.

Another major problem it faces is that it hasn't adapted to other combo decks. Solidarity has never in the past needed to do this, as before it could pretty much either outrace or hijack the storm count from any other combo deck. This is a large part of why it was Tier 1. It was the combo deck that beat all the other combo decks.

Now it can't. Prevalent combo decks are too fast for Solidarity to be ready to hijack storm counts. It needs to examine Stifle and additional Echoing Truth as possible solutions, possibly in place of a couple of the Twincasts dedicated previously to fighting control (Although Twincast has proven itself in some combo matches, being exceptional against Ill-Gotten Gains.) Stifle stops Storm and delays Belcher. Echoing Truth stops Empty the Warrens, while simultaneously being an answer to cards like Meddling Mage and Chalice of the Void.

Solidarity probably won't ever hit tier 1 again. Combo has been sped up too much since Solidarity's glory days for it to ever come back. But it might see a resurgence as a solid tier 2 deck.

[Ewokslayer]

How did Solidarity go from a clear Tier 1 deck to barely played? Has the deck lost popularity because it is difficult to play? Has it been replaced by other storm combos? Did people simply get bored of it? Essentially, why is it not putting up the results it used to put up?

Being a Tier 1 deck and its popularity aren't really comparable.
Solidarity was always the least popular of the Big 3. In previous tournaments it made up 11.7% of the metagame compared to 12.4% for Threshold and 17.5% for Goblins. In the last 5 American tournaments Solidarity has dropped to 8.79%, with significant drop off in Kaddy's Tournament (5.5%). At that tournament it was the 5th most popular deck with Landstill taking the 3rd spot at 10.9% of the field. I believe the reason for Solidarity's decrease in popularity is a result of the increase in Aggro Control and Control in the format coupled with the decrease of Aggro.
Aggro is always going to be combo's best matchup. Over the last 5 major tournaments its portion of the field has dropped 17%. At the same time Aggro Control has increased 10% and Control has seen an increase of 32% of its metagame presence.
Solidarity unlike the other combo decks in the format (TES, Iggy Pop, Belcher) has a harder time against all forms of aggro control. (though with Iggy Pop most of the Aggro Control matchups are about the same with the exception of Deadguy and Red Death)
Control's resurrence specifically in the form of Landstill also impacts Solidarity's performance. Control is no longer the autowin for Solidarity as the deck type has moved away from Rifter and other slow non-interactive decks (from Solidarity's perspective) to builds of Landstill that can force interaction (Duress, Stifle, etc).
Additionally, Midrange decks such as Survival have adapted through the inclusion of black (Duress, Therapy, Mesmeric Fiend) to combo and Solidarity is effected the most by this sort of disruption since it will give those decks time to play those spells.
Basically, Combo as a whole has been less popular in the last 5 tournaments (though I expect that to change) and specifically Solidarity has lost popularity because Control and Aggro Control have become so much more popular. The newer combo decks are currently better positioned to beat those Aggro Control and Control decks so they should increase in popularity, especially with Solidarity's decrease in popularity as Solidarity generally has a postive matchup against combo decks.

[Machinus]

It was never highly played, at any point.

However, it has been much better. Right now combo is really fast, and the hate that is played is much stronger when you have four turns to resolve it. There is also the question of which combo deck is better to play at a typical tournament with lots of Threshold. The matchup against Aggro-Control and its prevalence can be a big enough problem to force the best pilots to give up and play something else.

Solidarity was also hated out disproportionately to it's field fractions.

[Eldariel]

Well, we've seen a rather significant increase in the amount of aggro/control played in the tournaments. That coupled with even every 'straight' aggro-strategy fitting some anti-combo tools to their gameplan makes the metagame rather hostile for combo. Since many of the played hatecards affect High Tide-based combo just as much as LED-based combo (Meddling Mage, Chalice of the Void, Glowrider, Cabal Therapy, Duress) and Solidarity gives the opposing decks more time to mess up with their plan than the faster combo-decks, Solidarity is more affected by the increased amount of hate. That coupled with the fact that Solidarity is accounted for in deck construction, meaning decks don't mostly focus on disruption-strategies that are ineffective against High Tide's reactive nature, means that Solidarity has very little advantage against the faster combo-decks presently, basically being just as vulnerable but giving opponents more time to capitalize on that vulnerability. Also, since it's faster, it's fully possible that your opponent just outraces you, something that doesn't really happen against anything but other combo when talking about the faster combo-strategies.

Also, Solidarity was talked about more than its results would warrant, meaning it had some unwelcome publicity so everyone and their moms was packing at least a sideboard strategy against it. That doesn't mean the deck can't perform, it just means that it's incredibly difficult to perform with the deck and thus the necessary skills to compete with Solidarity are just so much higher than those for other decks that it's an unattractive choice, and even for Solidarity-players, very exhausting for long tournaments. All these issues combined seem to be the primary reason for the deck losing popularity, numbers and placings. As said, time may come when the metagame is ripe for Solidarity to prey on as decks focus more and more on hating fast combo, but so far, most hate is chosen specifically so that it affects Tide- and LED-combo equally.

[Deep6er]

Tacosnape and Ewokslayer are both right. Aggro-Control is on the rise, as is extraordinarily fast combo. If you remember, before Empty the Warrens, the fastest consistent combo deck was Iggy Pop. Aggro-Control wasn't terribly popular and had difficulties against Goblins. These two things meant a very conducive environment to Solidarity. Now however, the idea of combo decks is more akin to something like:

Player 1: Let's play a game.
Solidarity Player: Sure.
Player 1: OK, let's see, if you don't have Force of Will, I'm going to rape your mother.
Solidarity Player: Wait, I don't...
Player 1: Oopsy daisy! Looks like I'll be back in ten minutes.
Solidarity Player: Son of a bitch! I'm supposed to mulligan for Force. Sorry Mom.

Incidentally, that game sucks. Reducing Solidarity's outs to Force in the opening hand weakens a great deal of what the deck is capable of. However, on the flip side, if you DO mulligan for Force, it's fucking AWFUL against the Aggro-Control decks. Trapped between a rock and a hard place as they say (although, this rock rapes your mother, what an asshole, stupid rock). I see those two as being the biggest reasons why Solidarity isn't played as much as it used to. It's also important to consider what Ewokslayer said. Solidarity was NEVER played overmuch (with one exception) and I've never seen people play the deck flawlessly (myself included). Those two certainly helped in addition to the fact that everyone and their mother was packing Solidarity hate in their board. Sometimes in excessive amounts. Anyway, those are my views on it. Honestly, even I don't play Solidarity much anymore. Truly a disappointing turn of events.

[Di]

How did Solidarity go from a clear Tier 1 deck to barely played?

The deck really wasn't played all that much in the first place. Prior to Empty the Warrens, it was the most popular combo deck and still didn't see many participants, maybe 3-6 tops for 50+ person tournaments.

Now, as far as why it dropped down in the tier structure is simple: the fundamental turn of Legacy increased. With Empty the Warrens popping up in every combo deck now, all other combo decks have the ability to win off turn 1-2 much more frequently than they used to. This makes Solidarity the slowest combo deck, which for the most part isn't acceptable. Also due to Empty the Warrens decks becomming much more popular, people have been overloading their decks with more combo hate, and an increase in aggro-control has been a result of this. Considering Solidarity's toughest matchups are aggro-control, it's natural that it slid down in the tier structure because it has become overwhelmed by bad matchups.


Has the deck lost popularity because it is difficult to play?

I don't think the deck's difficulty has really hindered its popularity to much an extent. I've seen some really good Solidarity pilots, and I've seen some really bad ones. Maybe the deck's difficulty is oblivious to the bad pilots, but it's never stopped them from playing the deck.


Has it been replaced by other storm combos?

Yes, any Empty the Warrens-based combo deck. This includes TES, Belcher, and Iggy Pop, which I believe has now gone to a red splash for it. It's just too slow compared to these decks.


Did people simply get bored of it?

No; it just became an inferior combo deck.


Essentially, why is it not putting up the results it used to put up?

As mentioned earlier, the format has shifted a bit to faster combo and an increase in aggro-control. This spells bad times for the Solidarity player, so they either suffer during the tournament through a field of hate, or opt to play another deck. Either way, I don't think Solidarity will put up numbers again until something is done about Empty the Warrens.

[Afro]

Why play a combo deck that wins turn 4 when you can play one that wins turns 1/2 (Belcher, TES)? Add to the fact that Belcher is 100x easier to pilot without fucking up and you have your answer.

Also for some the cost of Resets is enough to turn people off from the deck.

[Zilla]

I'm going to keep my answers to this question pretty brief, since there's already a pretty clear consensus:

Solidarity always had problems: Card availability was one. The fact that it was insanely difficult to play optimally was the other. This is why the deck was never widely played, despites its inherent power in the hands of a skilled player.

Solidarity is no longer Tier 1 because of Empty the Warrens primarily, and Lion's Eye Diamond secondarily. Others have said that Solidarity is on the decline because aggro-control is on the rise, but this is symptomatic rather than causal.

Aggro-control is on the rise because LED and EtW are enabling combo decks which are much faster and more robust than Solidarity. This inherently weakens aggro's influence in the metagame, which in turn strengthens aggro-control's, which is classically strong against combo and weak against aggro.

As an aside, I think this may create a strong niche for board control decks like Landstill and Truffle Shuffle in the near future, since they're very strong against most aggro-control. We may see a true rock-paper-scissors metagame emerge, where combo beats board control, board control beats aggro-control, and aggro-control beats combo.

[scrumdogg]

As most everyone else has already posted, Solidarity is shrinking rapidly due to a number of factors like price (any combo deck which doesn't involve a playset of Force of Will, fetches, and a playset of obscure Legends cards is much preferable to many players), playskill (not to detract from TES, IGGy, & CRET Belcher but they are far easier to pilot well than Solidarity), and most importantly speed. Combo is the most Darwinian of the 3 most commonly defined types of decks and it definitely survival of the fastest. Solidarity is 2-3 turns slower than TES & Belcher and has much more difficulty highjacking their storm count. Solidarity has reached the point where it crawls off to a cave & hides - waiting to either die, get new cards that make it faster, or for it's natural predators to die (either by banning or environment shift). The irony is that if the environment shifts to significant amounts of really fast storm combo and board control ala Landstill, Rock, etc etc....which might be very bad for many of the current good aggro-control decks...Solidarity could become good again on it's own, as it has very good game versus board control. Ahhhh Legacy, where what goes around comes around (and around and around) and the metagame resembles a drunken philosophy debate more than a mathematical proof.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

All control decks are essentially metagame decks, and Solidarity was metagamed against decks that were silly enough to slow down their game plan because they thought that their spells and such actually meant something by turns 4-6. When control and mid-range decks make a resurge, then Solidarity will be strong again. But it might be permanently crippling that combo has reached turn 2 critical mass. Solidarity used to count on beating other combo decks, but they've now become fast enough to be unfavorable. Maybe it's time to think about maindeck Disrupt.

I think part of it remains simply a meme, though- similarly to how the myth of Landstill's demise got spread enough that people stopped playing it, even though it actually put up strong numbers, people have bashed on Solidarity significantly to the point where people didn't want to be seen to be playing a "bad deck". People's behavior in Magic, as in aspects of life, is shaped to some extent by a desire for image and to appear cool. For lack of a better term, Solidarity isn't seen as cool- a lot of people on websites I'm not allowed to name regularly bash on it for little apparent reason, as it's been much more successful when it was played than decks that remain perennial favorites despite sucking in terms of performance.

We talk about fast combo, but really, Goblins is much worse there, and gets nowhere near the same flak. Fast combo isn't that widely played, and everyone's begun packing sideboard cards for it- cards that tend not to hit Solidarity at all.

[AnwarA101]

What people may not have realized is that Solidarity was barely fast enough to keep up with the format. But when the format was slower, Solidarity was able to get by against most decks. It also was very good against slower decks like Control which basically had no real chance to beat it. Three different things started happening in Legacy which I think all brought down Solidarity -

1) Goblins started running a real anti-combo board specifically Chalice of the Void and to a lesser degree Pyrostatic Pillar. These cards made it so that the Solidarity player had to bounce a permanent before going off. This was much more difficult to do than playing around a Goblin player who obviously had a REB in hand because they kept leaving mana open. The stack tricks of Solidarity along with BEB allowed Solidarity to play through that hate successfully. Having to bounce a permanent without being able to play search spells (Chalice) or taking massive damage when playing spells (Pillar) made this matchup very difficult.

2) Non-Threshold Aggro-Control decks started seeing more play. These decks had very good matchup against combo decks and were very difficult to defeat for the Solidarity player. These decks include Faerie Stompy, Madness, Fish, Red Death, Deadguy Ale, and perhaps a few others. Perhaps these decks had difficult matchups against Goblins, but they still saw play.

3) Non-Iggy Pop combo started seeing much more play. TES and CRET Belcher are the obvious examples here. Solidarity could rely on having a really good matchup against combo decks. This was no longer the case because these decks were able to generate massive tokens with Empty the Warrens as early as turn 1. The fact that you had to so aggressively mulligan for Force of Will made this matchup very hard. A very easy matchup against combo suddenly became difficult.

All of these combined together made it very difficult to justify playing Solidarity anymore. You simply couldn't expect an unprepared metagame. Solidarity was amazing against that metagame, but times change.

[frogboy]

I hate sounding like a broken record, but:

Solidarity was never a huge metagame presence in the Swiss of most events, although you probably wanted to have a plan against it if you were planning on winning the elimination rounds.

Sixteen million new breeds of aggro-control decks didn't do the deck any favors, particularly after the Flash fiasco when those decks were really prevalent and to some extent still are.

Plus, like, faster combo decks aren't too good for it.

Disclaimer: No one ever played the deck in the northwest anyway, so this is mostly observations from tournaments on the other side of the country.

Jack makes a lot of good points, though.

[Lukas Preuss]

Solidarity has never been a dominating part of the metagame.

In the US, it was relatively popular for a short time, but it was always only a very small number of people who were even able to pilot the deck to a T8 finish. In Europe, this has been even worse. The deck is not very popular and there might only be a handful of people in all of Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium for example who are able to play the deck correctly.

There have been some changes in the metagame that are not positive for Solidarity, as well. Fast, consistent Combo, more Aggro-Control decks, etc. have surfaced a lot lately and are all bad matchups for Solidarity. In my opinion, Solidarity will be able to deal with those changes at some point, though. Landstill, which has always been a good matchup for Solidarity might be getting stronger (and therefore more popular) in the metagame and there might be some new innovations that will help Solidarity to deal with those problem matchups.

I have been toying around with new ideas like 4 Stifle in the board to help against fast combo decks and being still good against Goblins. A white splash could help against Aggro-Control with cards like Orim's Chant and Abeyance (which are good against fast combo, as well) and Porphyry Nodes (against Meddling Mage and to stall the game into a game winning position). These are just some ideas, though.