[Deck] Armageddon Stax [Archive] - Page 4

dragzz

09-11-2008, 03:23 PM

I hate playing a first turn angel and unmorph it just to see it StP.

If you know that your opponent has STP and you play angel on your first turn and unmorph her on your second, clearly your playing the deck wrong.

Establishing some sort of board control is essential before playing either a magus or an angel, this is true in _any_ match-up unless you want to risk loosing a turn/2 turns of play to a card that cost W or R, a trini or a chalice is always the better turn 1 play.

Not having to eat up two of your turns to play it is a big boost against aggro. That means you can spend one turn casting Ghostly Prison and the next one casting this, rather than using up both turns to cast and unmorph Exalted Angel.

If you know that you're playing against aggro and have a ghostly prison and can cast it turn one, but instead for some unknown reason you decided to cast a morphed angel, you're playing the deck wrong.

Don't get me wrong, I think the new angel is worth testing but I don't think the above arguments are valid, they are clearly misplays than real arguments vs Exalted Angel.

The decks objective is to play lock pieces _first_ before anything else, this is particularly important if you don't know what your dealing with, so _any_ arguments consisting of playing a turn 1 angel has no merit(to me at least) and besides the new angel can't even dream of being played turn 1, so that's a +1 to exalted isn't it?

And Exalted's morph ability comes in handy after a playing Geddon, because you could play her sooner, so another +1 to her.

The cc doesn't matter as much as people claim it to be, the deck runs 7 sources of 2 colorless mana, and can _easily_ reach 4 without any difficulties.

The real issue is the new angel "exalted" ability, giving you're lone attackers +1/+1 and lifelink, which is great but is it really needed? What if you don't have another creature on board? Which of the two is actually better?

Attacking with multiples of her, or her + exalted angel attacking, doesn't lead to much more a life swing than just her attacking by herself.

Lifelink is a new name for an existing ability (as seen on cards such as Exalted Angel). The rules for lifelink are as follows:

502.68. Lifelink

502.68a Lifelink is a triggered ability. "Lifelink" means "Whenever this permanent deals damage, you gain that much life."

502.68b If a permanent has multiple instances of lifelink, each triggers separately.

You can have multiple lifelinks so you gain more life.

Dark_Cynic87

09-11-2008, 04:15 PM

Do you mean to say that we should run Nantuko monastery, then run ensnaring bridge, just to get full use of the angel?

I find that to be a sickly twisted interpretation of what I was stating. Moreover, Bridge + Monestary is stupid. 4 cards in hand is not even realistic in this deck, not to mention pointless versus everything that it would be there for in the first place. And I said nowhere that a green splash would be good (not that this isn't true, NOW I'm saying a green splash would be good, but not for Monestary--however, forget that I said this because I've put this thread down this road before, and it gets ugly. Don't discuss this.).

Bridge will never be acceptable in this list unless something is printed, although I find it hard to imagine anything good enough to cut Ghostly Prison for in favor of Bridge. I used it in Sun Tower Evo, but never in a mono-colored list where it has exactly ZERO synergy with the list.

I just remembered that towards the end of my AngelStax days/GeddonStax days, I didn't even MD Angels, as they were often win-more and useless until the end-game. I had 4x in my SB to side in Games 2 and 3 to go a bit more hard-core against them. It worked well.

I ran 6 'Geddon effects, though.

Pce,

--DC

SuckerPunch

09-11-2008, 08:36 PM

If you know that you're playing against aggro and have a ghostly prison and can cast it turn one, but instead for some unknown reason you decided to cast a morphed angel, you're playing the deck wrong.

That's a straw argument if I've ever heard one. The point was clearly not in regards to what card can be played instead of morphing angel.

The point was that exalted angel eats up two turns of mana. Where as, with the new angel, on the first of those turns, some other card could be played instead.

Also, I find it ironic that in one sentence, you say that the entire point of the deck to always play lock pieces first turn, and then in the very next sentence say that Exalted Angel can be played turn one so that's a plus point for it.

I completely agree with your first point. I pretty much never played Exalted Angel turn one and only rarely play it even on turn two. My point was, even on turn three, instead of morphing Exalted Angel, and then using up turn four unmorphing it. You could play some other card turn three instead, then cast the new angel on turn four.

Anyways, that ruling about multiple instances of Lifelink is pretty cool. I had no idea those stack like that. I guess playing both this and Exalted Angel both as two ofs wouldn't be completly pointless afterall.

dragzz

09-11-2008, 08:46 PM

@DC
Sorry, but I don't really understand this.

A resolved one could result in a better matchup vs. Landstill varients--4/4 land-creatures tend to win in land wars, and while most 'Geddon stax don't run it, it has applications when Ensnaring Bridge is involved. It gets the +1/+1 after declared as an attacker.

Care to elaborate a little?

@SuckerPunch: Ok got ya. But still, If you have better cards to play ie. lock pieces then why play the angel first, may it be exalted or battlegrace?

Also, I find it ironic that in one sentence, you say that the entire point of the deck to always play lock pieces first turn, and then in the very next sentence say that Exalted Angel can be played turn one so that's a plus point for it.

Some are mentioning playing angel the first turn then getting STPed or they could have played something better, and I'm just saying that playing the angel first turn is not really an argument against it because the new angel can't even be played the first turn.

Anyway, I'm conceding, I did try some matches with my brother ( though his not really the best player) and I believe that running any of the two would be a matter of preference. Both has it merits. However, if your running 6 geddons, I think Exalted Angel is better since she can start swinging faster.

Oh btw, 2 Battlgegrace in play is just insane, you get +2/+2 plus double lifelink, take that dreadnought!

f|i[p]

09-11-2008, 09:46 PM

Another point for exalted is that she can be counter bait, morph her down 1st or 2nd turn, people are more likely to counter her, thus giving your lock pieces more chances of getting through.

About playing angel 1st turn or 2nd

First game if I don't know my opponents deck, I would almost never risk playing first turn angel.

Although I usually play morphed angel first turn against goblins....could be a lackey blocker, and better yet exalted angel smashing face on 2nd turn. I guess you would just have to know your opponents deck before even doing this...

At times I go the aggro route.. it works for me...

But the angel deserves testing at the least, I think it would be a metagame choice too, against a more aggro oriented metagame, exalted angels are just priceless, thus the new angels might even work as a compliment for exalted angel.

But if you have exalted angel on the side, or don't liker her in the deck at all. You might not like the new angel too.

On the side note, against an aggro metagame, blinding angel might work even better.

Dark_Cynic87

09-12-2008, 04:36 AM

On the 4/4 Land that people seem to think I'm referring to Monestary on: I'm talking about keeping 2 cards in hand with an Ensnaring Bridge in play, attacking with it. It gets +1/+1 from the angel's Exalted mechanic and then you can pump it with whatever other factories you have in play. Giving it another +X/+X with X=the number of mishra's factories you control. Second main phase you drop a card, keeping them from attacking at all with anything relevent as it dies to Angel as they can attack with what, an unthreshed 'Goose? A lone Piledriver? Whatever they attack with it won't matter. You draw your card the next turn and do it again. Even if they block it each turn, you are still gaining 3 or 4 life a turn and replaying the factory during your second main phase.

I'm NOT saying that Bridge is better than Prison. I'm saying it has applications if you play a 3-c list like I do, where the main colors are UG and splash is whatever you want. I've run all 3, and while I like black the best right now thanks to LotV/Helm combo, white has new applications with the Angel, and I'm simply stating this.

Although, it's a nice little tidbit to remember if you happen to ever come across the scenario with THEM playing Bridge...

Pce,

--DC

Skeggi

09-12-2008, 04:44 AM

I like the picture you paint here DC, I like the idea. However, I'm affraid it's rather too fragile to use. What if you have too many cards in your hand and you can't get rid of them? (Too few shouldn't be a problem) Or worse, what if they have enough defense to just block the Factory? Bridge also lacks synergy with Armageddon. Keep in mind it won't be a lone Piledriver: the Goblins will attack with all their numbers, pumping Piledriver's power after he has been declared an attacker. What if he Gempalms your Angel? What if he SGC's gobbo's over your bridge...okay, Prison doesn't help that either...

Dark_Cynic87

09-12-2008, 05:01 AM

Ok, the goblin thing was an error in my judgement...unless you have out a Magus, then it gets closer to that. It's 4 a.m. here, I'm bound to say something stupid.

Note that I never said that this is how it should be, I'm saying that it would be decent if you needed additional creature protection (why you would is absolutely beyond me as Magii and Prisons, not to mention 'Geddon effects to absolutely ruin their army...). I think I got messed up as someone mentioned Crawlspace on this page and I got confused...It happens.

Pce,

--DC

Skeggi

09-15-2008, 01:43 PM

Hello folks, I went to a 32 man tournament where I went 3-2-0. I will write you a little report about it. First, without further ado, the list, ADHD Stax:

http://img381.imageshack.us/img381/3897/deckliststaxpm5.jpg
Team Decklists are very FTW. Why stop at pimping your deck?

I'm not completely sure about the sideboarding - it's all from my memory.

Match 1 - Really bad Cephalid Breakfast.

Game 1: I stall him for a few turns. Then he casts an Orim's Chant on his turn and a Summoner's Pact for Cephalid Illusionist. He thought he could go off, but he couldn't. On my turn I cast Armageddon, he can't pay the Pact's upkeep and he's dead. We both laugh, and a radius of 2 tables around us laughs too, when they hear it. "PWND" just got a new definition.

+4 Suppression Field
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Windborn Muse

-3 Smokestack
-3 Magus of the Tabernacle
-1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
-1 Engineered Explosives

Game 2: He goes off turn two. I have a Windborn Muse in play, so he has to use both his lands to let his biggie attack. Unfortunately for him, his biggie is a Cognivore (http://magiccards.info/od/en/77.html) and he only has 15 instants in his graveyard. I ofcourse have 0, and because of Shuko his flyer is 16/15. He swings for 16 taking me to 4, I do nothing next turn and let him draw a card his next turn...which he doesn't because he milled himself. He also showed me 3 instant cards in his hand...even if he played those, he still wouldn't have killed me. "PWND" got a new definiton, again. I don't know if it's a really, really bad Cephalid Breakfast deck, or a very effective Suicide deck, but I sure loved this match-up! :cool:

1-0-0

Match 2: Red Black White Goodstuff

This is a very nice guy, that's why he ended up joining Team ADHD after the tournament. More importantly, I knew exactly what he was playing, so I could anticipate well.

Game 1: Chalice @ 1 locked his hand full of Thoughtseize, Duress, Plows and Cabal Therapy. Fun.

+4 Suppression Field
+3 Oblivion Ring

-4 Trinisphere
-2 Engineered Explosives
-1 Smokestack

Game 2: Not sure what happened here, and if we got to a third game, but basically, I lock and win :smile:

2-0-0

Match 3: Black Green Loam

Game 1: I lock him, he dies.

-4 Trinisphere
-1 Smokestack

+3 Oblivion Ring
+2 Karmic Justice

Game 2: He uses his Wastelands with high mastery, swinging every land I really needed. A 7/7 Wild Mongrel chumps me up to bits.

I didn't sideboard in Suppression Field here, which was a mistake. I quickly board them in.

-4 Ghostly Prison

+4 Suppression Field

Game 3: Again with the Wastelands. I should reconsider my basic landcount in this deck. It all took quite a while, but I couldn't cast a would-be saving Armageddon, nor did I draw a Suppression Field.

2-1-0

Match 4: Demon Stompy

Game 1: I heard the guy I was playing against played something called Demon Stompy. I've never seen that before, so I don't really have a clue what to play. I keep an average hand and he begins: Swamp, Mox, Dark Ritual, Graveborn Muse. Aha, so that's what it does. I'm going to play it safe, and play a basic Plains on my turn. He stomps me with the Muse, and he casts a Morph. I play a Wasteland on my turn. He stomps some more and I'm dead; but he didn't have a clue what I was playing, so while I'm sideboarding, he starts shuffling.

-4 Chalice of the Void
-4 Trinisphere
-3 Smokestack

+4 Suppression Field
+3 Oblivion Ring
+2 Runed Halo
+2 Windborn Muse

Game 2: this game took very long. Eventually it looked like he had me by the balls. He casts Winter Orb, still having no clue what I'm playing. I cast Magus of the Tabernacle and he scoops.

Game 3: I got answers for alot of threats, but then I make a huge mistake. I oblivion ringed a morph (could be either Bane of the Living or Grinning Demon), then I Oblivion Ringed a Shriekmaw, leaving up another morph, while keeping a Runed Halo in my hand for when it unmorphs (I hoped it to be a Grinning Demon, so he loses 2 life each turn, and I don't), but he never unmorphs it. Instead he keeps pounding with that silly 2/2 critter and finally molests my hand with Duress. Bye-bye Runed Halo. Silly me. I cried and so did baby Jesus.

2-2-0

Match 5: Random Black Red Burn 'n Aggro.

Game 1: I start with a Chalice@1. He can't really do much except cast that BB 2/2 knight with pro white and bushido. I cast Magus and Armageddon to really set him back, Chalice@2 kills him.

No sideboarding from my side, I'm a hunter, and decks with a low mana-curve are my meat.

Game 2: He starts with a swamp and a Carnophage. I start with a Chalice@1. Don't know how it exactly went on, but he manages to play a Tombstalker, but everything dies to Tabernacle effects.

3-2-0

Bad resistance makes me not top 8. I end up being 12th I believe. A teammate of mine does reach top 8 with Dragon Stompy, was about to win his first match against the GB Loam guy; he has a Magus with SoFI in play that kicks serious behind, but the Loam guy plays an Engineered Explosives for 3 (green, black and red mana from his Bloodstained Mire). He doesn't have mana to let it boom, so he has to wait a turn. My mate topdecks Powder Keg, but doesn't know X = 0 when not on the stack. Doh.

While top 8 was going I played against a Reanimate deck which got pwned by Engineered Explosives. I really have a good feeling about these things, so they'll stay, again, for now :smile:

The Academy Ruins are less viable than I had hoped. I'm thinking of dropping 1 Academy Ruins and 1 Tundra, for probably 2 Plains. Karmic Justice will probably leave the sideboard but I haven't decided yet what to replace them for.

jazzykat

09-15-2008, 06:25 PM

Well, thanks for the report. As a relatively long time Stax player myself I really couldn't believe that you only had 3 smokestacks. While I realize they don't immediately change the board they are the decks namesake for a reason.

I see that you found out first hand why a bunch of basic plains are necessary and that doing cute things with your mana base only opens you up to a beating.

I play karmic justice in the side but honestly don't think they are that good either. Runed Halo is cool but I haven't tested it yet and how can you not love oblivion ring...pseudo spot removal at a reasonable price!

Fred Bear

09-15-2008, 07:00 PM

I agree, excellent report Skeggi.

Namesake or not, I have tested it extensively in configurations of both 4 and 3 Smokestacks. I too found three to be plenty since its strength goes up exponentially in combination with other cards in the deck. I absolutely hate having to play this as a 'catch-up' measure. I know it may sound strange, but I've even been known to board them out in several matchups.

Academy Ruins is crap in White Stax. It's (a) too slow, (b) too costly, (c) unreliable, (d) unsearchable in your build and (e) a strain on a manabase you intend to blowup and recycle. I strongly recommend against it in this deck.

Karmic Justice is crap 99% of the time too. I don't really know how to explain it because it looks like you are getting good return for the 'investment'. The issue arises, though, that against competent opponents, you will not get the 'advertised' effect. Good players will wait to activate a Deed or Disk until they have a position they can defend or recover from faster than you.

I urge you to make a list of the cards you are boarding in Justice to combat. When I did, I found that Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring combatted both that list and a whole other list of (played) cards.

I really like the idea of Runed Halo, too. I'll probably start testing that one.

-FB...

Skeggi

09-16-2008, 01:35 AM

Oblivion Ring is a good card; but like the rest of your deck, vulnerable to Pernicious Deed. I remember I had to remove a Goyf once with an Oblivion Ring, but the next turn he did a Deed for 3 and it was game over. On the other hand, it can kill a Pernicious Deed :wink:

Remember; Runed Halo covers alot of functionality of Oblivion Ring, but it extends in another area. Where Oblivion Ring can kill a Deed for instance, Runed Halo protects you from Grindstone. They compliment eachother, I really like that.

f|i[p]

09-16-2008, 02:55 AM

Nice report skeggi,

About runed halo, that seems interesting.. I think I may test it out as well...Ill have to first see its pro's and cons...I'm not yet sure what it will replace though. I have never gotten to test karmic justice in a tournament scene, so I wouldn't really have any first hand experience how sucky it is..

New card .

Mindlock Orb 4
Artifact Rare
Players can't search libraries.

This could very well complement supression fields sideboard it could replace karmic justice if you dont like them... it shuts down fetchlands which is very good, shuts down survial, and other tutors or matrons as well.. It could be a very promising sideboard card..

cons as of now:
it shuts down flagstones.
casting cost is a little high but workable I think.

Skeggi

09-16-2008, 02:58 AM

;274551']Mindlock Orb 4
Artifact Rare
Players can't search libraries.

This could very well replace supression fields sideboard... it shuts down fetchlands. shuts down survial, and other tutors as well.. It could be a very promising sideboard card...

Wouldn't Aven Mindcensor be better? That one also beats. Besides, Suppression Field does more than only stop Fetches, it also stops Jitte, Cephalid Breakfast combo, Wild Mongrel, slows down Survival and so on and so forth...And what to do with our poor Flagstones?

f|i[p]

09-16-2008, 04:00 AM

Sorry skeggi ,

I rephrased my comment about it. Im not so sure about mindsencor since just like other creatures which have a low toughness, their just too easy to kill. And supression field doesn't really stop fetches or jitte, it delays them, but then again delaying the game might be what we only need.

It may have been good if it was 3 to cast though. So I'm not so sure, supression fields are good, but at times I really want 8 of them., this could serve supression fields 5-8. Just try em out.. No need to dismiss anything new.

Im not sure about this one.. if its real or just rumors for now.

Elsperth, Knight Errant - 2ww

Planeswalker - Elsperth (M)
+1: Put two white 1/1 Human Soldier creature tokens into play.
+1: Target creature gets +3/+3 and gains flying until end of turn.
-8: Permanents you control gain indestructible. (This effect does not end at end of turn.)
4

Could be good...

Skeggi

09-16-2008, 05:11 AM

The ability to crap out 2 permanents/turn seems like fun. The fact that he doesn't need red seems like more fun. The ability to give a creature flying makes Moat more viable. If it's true, he's testworthy.

f|i[p]

09-16-2008, 07:05 AM

If this is true.. and is most likey to be, bringing out 2 tokens a turn is good for blocking, and smokestack food... .. it also protects your planeswalker, the second ability gives your creatures flying, well I am assuming this is more aggro oriented, I would have wanted it to be more defensive though. but it can pump magus, and factories, or angels. The last ability however, it looks amazing. 1 sided geddons. indestructible creatures, tokens.

But Im not sure if this speeds up the deck, or actually slows it down more.

DeathScythe

09-16-2008, 07:38 AM

I doubt the current card is true as it has 2 +1 abilities, unless they already go wierd with planeswalkers I'm assuming there is a typo on the second +1?

Brehn

09-16-2008, 07:47 AM

I think this has huge potential. No more "Baww, this Goyf just keeps swinging through my Ghostly Prison". Since Tabernacle effects have been shitty for quite some time in the current fattie-dominated format IMO, this might be a good replacement for Magus.

Fred Bear

09-16-2008, 10:12 AM

;274558']Sorry skeggi ,

I rephrased my comment about it. Im not so sure about mindsencor since just like other creatures which have a low toughness, their just too easy to kill. And supression field doesn't really stop fetches or jitte, it delays them, but then again delaying the game might be what we only need.

It may have been good if it was 3 to cast though. So I'm not so sure, supression fields are good, but at times I really want 8 of them., this could serve supression fields 5-8. Just try em out.. No need to dismiss anything new.

Im not sure about this one.. if its real or just rumors for now.

Elsperth, Knight Errant - 2ww

Planeswalker - Elsperth (M)
+1: Put two white 1/1 Human Soldier creature tokens into play.
+1: Target creature gets +3/+3 and gains flying until end of turn.
-8: Permanents you control gain indestructible. (This effect does not end at end of turn.)
4

Could be good...

Mindlock Orb would not replace Suppression Field, but rather be played in addition to. The Orb (if real) is also much better than Aven Mindcensor. While Mindcensor will beat, Orb is harder to remove, doesn't have a Tabernacle upkeep, and turns off Survival instead of hamstringing it. The reaction with Flagstones is sub-optimal, but so is Mindcensor.

If the Planeswalker is real in this form, I am pretty close to thinking this is an auto-include (at least as a 2-of). I understand that it will take a few turns to set up a 'win' with this, but it would actually advance your position while not keeping you from doing other things, that's pretty powerful for something that can hit as early as turn 2 (I know you can get lucky and land it turn 1 - just being realistic) and being able to protect itself fairly well. The simple number of 'broken' opportunities with this guy is enough potential to warrant testing.

-FB...

Elric19

09-16-2008, 11:08 AM

With Mindlock Orb, Ghost Quarter become a really nice card. Could it replace Wasteland?

Jaynel

09-16-2008, 11:25 AM

The most obvious aspect of this guy is that you can EASILY support Smokestack at 2 with him in play. That's such a beating. Or just providing 2 chump blockers while you set up more lock pieces is so good.

f|i[p]

09-16-2008, 11:51 AM

With Mindlock Orb, Ghost Quarter become a really nice card. Could it replace Wasteland?

Ghost quarter would be strip mine with mindlock orb in play. But then you would have to wait for mindlock orb before it becomes one.. It becomes a 2 card combo,(3 with crucible), which will be quite slow. I don't think it can replace all the wasteland, but maybe you can replace a single wastelad and test it.

OK.. this just came out from mtgsalvation spoilers:

not almost as good as it was rumored to be but its still worth testing.

instead of 2 tokens, it becomes 1 token.. I wish it was 2 though...

still not that bad...I'm not sure how the last ability works, if everything you put down even after you use the 3rd ability ends up being indestructible.

Elspeth, Knight Errant 2ww

Planeswalker - Elspeth Mythic Rare

+1: Put one 1/1 white Soldier token into play.
+1: Target creature gets +3/+3 and gains flying until end of turn.
-8: For the rest of the game, all your enchantments, artifacts, creatures, and land are indestructible.
4

Jaiminho

09-16-2008, 01:04 PM

;274659']I'm not sure how the last ability works, if everything you put down even after you use the 3rd ability ends up being indestructible.

Only what's in play when you activate gets affected by it. It's as if your enchantments, artifacts, creatures and land in play gain the "Indestructible" ability.

Masque

09-16-2008, 01:35 PM

Only what's in play when you activate gets affected by it. It's as if your enchantments, artifacts, creatures and land in play gain the "Indestructible" ability.
Newest word on the street is that it's from the point you activate it onward.

Dark_Cynic87

09-16-2008, 02:12 PM

I think it will be from that point on. I think anything you play onward will be indestructible. It says "are", not "Gains indestructible". It would seem that anything new in play will become indestructible every time gamestate checks every time for the rest of the game.

Clearly it will be ruled on, and if done so in this way, will be a shoo-in for this deck. It will still be decent ruled the other way as Jaiminho stated, but not as good as it could be

What would be dropped? I'd recommend dropping Angels, or better than that I'd drop Magii. Tokens would become a better win-con that definitely are anti-synergistic with Tabernacle effects. However, active stax on 1 + armageddon is awesome. Also, it acts as a CoW, producing a sac outlet while still ramping up counters on it.

Pce,

--DC

Skeggi

09-16-2008, 02:18 PM

What would be dropped? I'd recommend dropping Angels, or better than that I'd drop Magii. Tokens would become a better win-con that definitely are anti-synergistic with Tabernacle effects. However, active stax on 1 + armageddon is awesome. Also, it acts as a CoW, producing a sac outlet while still ramping up counters on it.

Most Stax decks have 2-4 meta slots. Fitting in something potentially hot like this is no problem.

f|i[p]

09-17-2008, 12:51 AM

Mtg salvation has pictures of Mindlock orb... it has U in its casting cost

so its 3U

its still not hard to cast with the mox diamonds though.

Ethersword cannonist 1W
artifact creature

Each player who has played a nonartifact spell this turn can't play additional nonartifact spells.

2/2

I don't think this will actually fit in that much, its basically rule of law on non artifact spells on legs.But it could be an option if you have Rule of law on your sideboard as it comes a turn faster..It may work for the more artifact oriented builds of stax but affinity more likely.

Dark_Cynic87

09-17-2008, 03:23 AM

Rule of Law ON LEGS. A Rule of Law with a CLOCK. That could be good against storm combo. Against D-Day FT lists featuring Krosan Grip instead of Wipe Away, this is a 1-card lock game one. Game 2 it has access to Massacre/Pyroclasm and/or Slaughter Pact/Sudden Death, and then a slew of bounce, but still. It's game 1 under your belt. That's pretty awesome. I think it's slightly worse against TES as they have Burning Wishes for some form of removal (Pyrclasm's a sorcery, for instance), but still. Trinisphere/Chalice are still there, and it makes them wish for bounce/removal, wasting resources, buying you more time to get more of a lock down. Cool.

This is turning into a bit of a decent set for stax. Tezzeret, this, and the white Planeswalker. I'm starting to get a bit anxious. :cool:

That hasn't happened since Onslaught (can you believe I'm STILL PISSED about the "new" card face? Talk about a grudge...).

Pce,

--DC

Skeggi

09-17-2008, 04:11 AM

Rule of Law ON LEGS. A Rule of Law with a CLOCK. That could be good against storm combo. Against D-Day FT lists featuring Krosan Grip
Well, they often have a bounce card like Echoing Truth.

This is turning into a bit of a decent set for stax. Tezzeret, this, and the white Planeswalker. I'm starting to get a bit anxious. :cool:
We used to be excited about Ajani Vengeant too...where did that go?

That hasn't happened since Onslaught

Onslaught: Exalted Angel
Legions: Windborn Muse

2 card, of which some people aren't even sure they belong in Stax.

Mirrodin: Chalice of the Void (Rule of Law)
Darksteel: Trinisphere (Darksteel Citadel, Blinkmoth Nexus)
Fifth Dawn: Crucible of Worlds (Silent Arbiter)

Seems like a good block to me, 3 core cards :wink:

Time Spiral: Flagstones of Trokair
Planar Chaos: Magus of the Tabernacle

Also seems like a good block to me, 2 core cards :wink:

I guess it did happen since Onslaught :cool:

Fred Bear

09-17-2008, 08:55 AM

Couple of things to consider...

Mindlock with U in the cost probably isn't worth it. You won't want to bend your manabase for a sideboard card and 4 Diamonds isn't consistent enough to support the 2-3 you might want to board in. Especially when you consider we already have access to an on-color (though slightly less effective) search hoser in Aven Mindcensor.

Ethersword Cannonist is not good enough. We already have access to combo hosers with legs - Glowrider, True Believer (to a degree), etc. And none of those are good enough to even get boarded. None of those options die to Naturalize/Krosan Grip either (a point that seems to be overlooked). We already have access to Rule of Law which doesn't get played (and doesn't die to Pyroclasm). Bottomline, neat card but not nearly good enough to crack into the 75.

Elspeth's third ability should work like Jaiminho described - anything in play when the ability is activated (resolved) will become indestructible. I don't understand why it would grant indestructiblility (new word) to anything played after that, e.g. you could remove all loyalty counters to activate the ability, Elspeth is put to graveyard, all permanents you control become indestructible, but nothing you play after that point would even know Elspeth was ever in play. I will be interested when the Shards FAQ is posted next week as I'm sure it will clear this up (assuming that the spoiled text is correct).

I wasn't playing Stax during Onslaught block (don't know why you'd put Angel or Muse into a Stax deck at that point), but I really didn't consider it a viable choice until Mirrodin block (Chalice, Trinisphere, Crucible) and still didn't consider Angel Stax a decent choice until Flagstones of Trokair came out in Time Spiral. I do think that Shards appears to be offering a lot of options for this deck and for the first time in a long time, I'm excited for the fall set's release.

-FB...

f|i[p]

09-17-2008, 09:47 AM

Regarding the U in Mindlock orb, its a waste that it is blue, considering I would have ran it to complement suppression field in the side board. Perhaps when the whole set is out, we may even want to splash a tiny bit of color.Who knows for now.

Regarding Ethersworth cannonist, I think she could still be an option for those list who runs rule of law (I have seen a couple of players lists a pages back running 3 rule of law in the sideboard(In a combo heavy meta I assume). She is a beater and doesnt necessarily hinder trinisphere,smokestack or chalice, you can use it by baiting one artifact/spell to get to put down trinisphere, a game ending armageddon or whichever spell you need most, bait 1 spell for another to resolve. since the opponent can only play one non artifact spell a turn, he can only counter 1 spell.I am not saying its better than the other options, I am just saying that she could be a very good option.

Regarding the planeswalkers 3rd ability, The wording isn't clear enough to judge. It clearly doesn't say " in play", so I still think it would be all artifacts,creatures,land and enchantments you play even after the ability resolves would be indestructible for the rest of the game. If it were the only ones in play at that time the ability resolves, it would have been worded differently.

I think this whole set will have a lot to offer all kinds of stax decks.We would just have to wait, and see, since this is my pet deck, I'm really really excited. I hope we get more prison pieces.

Patrick

09-19-2008, 04:45 PM

I know I'm not one of the veterans, but I'll give you my opinion on these questions anyway:

Correct number of Smokestacks is 3: there are simply too much other important things to run in your deck to be able to run 4.

I'm currently playing 4 Trinispheres: this is a killer for alot of decks. I ended up in a 3+ mana-curve meta lately, so Trinisphere obviously loses its value: thinking of cutting 1...

About Angels, Moat and Muse: I'm currently running 2 Angels, 0 Moats and 2 Muses. I'm thinking of making this 3 Angels, 1-2 Moats and 0 Muses. For the second Moat I might cut a Magus (making my list 2 Magus, 1 Land).

For the correct mana configuration: see my list. It's too complicated and playstyle/meta-dependant.

I'm currently running 1 Ravages of War in addition to my 4 Geddons. I'm considering a 1-of Cataclysm (for the slot of the fourth Trinisphere).

I agree with a lot of this post.

4 Smokestack is just too many, and in the case where your opponent can deal with a Smokestack (keeping up a permanent count) Smokestack is a miserable topdeck.

4 Trinisphere is also optimal. A turn 1 Trinisphere can often buy enough time to make your opponent unable to deal with what you do. Your Crucible or Ghostly Prison or whatever is uncounterable and by the time they can play something you're in the position you need to be. Also, Trinisphere will seal a lot of combo matches game 1, usually games 2 and 3 as well. You don't need to chose a mana cost like with Chalice. Very nice!

My list is at 3 Angel, 1 Moat 3 Prison. I don't like how easy Windborn Muse is to kill, and it's only another Prison effect. When I was running 4 Prisons I considered Muse, but I figured Moat was better, and harder to get rid of.

On a different note, the debate between Kor Haven and Maze of Ith is a weird one. I like the Haven, because the deck is so reliant on mana you can't afford to have lands that don't produce. There will be times when the mana Kor Haven requires will make you lose, but there will be more times when the mana Kor Haven produces will make you win. Each of these lands is to stop Tombstalker (or some other dumbass, I just always happen to stop Tombstalker with it. Local metagame.). Often, in a position where you need to keep 1 creature off your ass, the 2 mana isn't going to matter. Either land will buy you enough time to draw into something good enough to deal with the threat. Maze untaps the attacker however. I can't think of a situation where this is relevant at the moment, but I'm sure it is.

Skeggi

09-22-2008, 03:16 AM

BOOM BABY!

Scourglass :3::w::w:
Artifact
, Sacrifice Scourglass: Destroy all nonland nonartifact permanents. Play this ability only during your upkeep.

Captain Hammer

09-22-2008, 03:59 AM

5cc is a lot, and you have to wait till the next upkeep, but it's a strong effect.

The only things it blows up are...

Magus of Tabernacle
Ghostly Prison
Exaled Angel/New Angel

But who cares if Magus and Prison blow up if you take out all of your opponents creatures in the process.

This really makes me want to replace Exalted Angel with an artifact win condition.

Karn perhaps.

Brehn

09-22-2008, 06:40 AM

So it's basically Wrath of God with "Suspend 1: 3WW" ?

Dark_Cynic87

09-22-2008, 09:04 AM

No, It's closer to Suspend X, where X= whatever you want decided whenever.

Brehn

09-22-2008, 09:06 AM

Oh, true. Doesn't make it playable, though.

Skeggi

09-22-2008, 09:23 AM

It's also recurrable with Academy Ruins. Although Academy Ruins has been tested and found to suck. Even if it can recur Engineered Explosives or a Tormod's Crypt from the sideboard; it sucks.

This artifact does have a very strong ability, it's like Nevinyrral's Disk, except it skips killing artifacts, which we like. Also, as Captain Hammer pointed out, if we were to play something like Karn, it wouldn't kill our wincondition; but we don't play Karn, because Karn sucks. But perhaps if we'd use

Sanctum Gargoyle :3::w:
Artifact Creature - Gargoyle
Flying
When Sanctum Gargoyle comes into play, return target artifact card from your graveyard to your hand. 2/3

Or
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/3757/ethersworncanonistyn1.jpg

...I still don't think it's worth breaking up the current solid build for.I am affraid that the "only in your upkeep" part probably makes it totally unplayable. It also makes us even more vulnerable to artifact hate, and I'm not very happy with Shattering Spree as it is right now...

Fred Bear

09-23-2008, 10:19 AM

I understand that people are desperate to find new cards to play in Stax, but a lot of these fall well short of addressing the actual needs of the current build, at least in my opinion.

Scourglass is a weak alternative to other options. Yes, it will kill all creatures. Yes, it will kill all enchantments. Yes, it is a permanent. But... it takes 2 turns and you can only activate it during your upkeep and it costs 5 mana and it blows up our creatures and enchantments. What decks play both creatures and enchantments that we would care about? Survival? 5 mana and two turns is pretty slow against a deck that only needs 1 mana to find an answer and 2-3 to play it. Enchantress? We don't even board specific answers for enchantress since their is (no offense to enchantress players intended) no such thing as an 'enchantress-heavy meta'. Outside of those two decks, who would we play this against? It will kill a Deed against those decks, if they don't activate it before our next upkeep (Needle stops it dead and doesn't kill my Prison or Tabernacle). It will kill a goblin/elf hoard (Magus or Prison plus an Armageddon does a good job of that too, I hear, not to mention Wrath of God is playable when necessary). I think you can mold a build to include this, but you need to rework several areas of the deck.

Sanctum Gargoyle is also not good. Treasure Hunter does the same thing a turn earlier and its not really playable. Yes, Gargoyle is an artifact which has some synergy, but it also dies to Naturalize, Disenchant, Krosan Grip, etc. all of which you will face post-board anyhow.

I think one question that I have for the folks who play this deck, is how do you play it? What are your primary and secondary goals or objectives? [Please don't answer with smart ass 'to win'-type answers]

For me, against an unknown opponent, I tend to focus on eliminating my opponents options (board control) or forcing them away from their game-plan (mana disruption) depending on what my opening seven shows me. Once I understand their game plan (or know what deck they are playing), I will typically drive towards specifics (i.e. Prison-Tabernacle-'Geddon vs aggro or 3-Sphere-Chalice-'Geddon vs 'control' - sorry for the generalization). While it may sound obvious, I don't believe this is a universal way to play the deck. Several folks play Cataclysm - it does not work if you play the deck like I do since I rely on multiple artifacts/enchantments to fully lock my opponent out of options and Cataclysm does not help that. Maindecking Exalted Angel also creates other avenues for play. It may seem odd to state, but when I did play Angel, i played the deck very different than I play my current build. Stax also offers a lot of 'tricks' beyond the natural synergies (i.e. Flagstones-Crucible-Smokestack = natural while Gods' Eye-Crucible-Smokestack = trick, etc.) almost none of which I employ - I tend to play a very 'clinical' game. My sideboarding plans would also seem unorthodox because of my comfort level with this deck.

I'm interested in hearing how others approach their gameplan because I think it leads directly into which cards offer the best maindeck/sideboard set-up and which cards offer the highest 'comfort' level with the deck.

Just some food for thought...

-FB...

f|i[p]

09-23-2008, 12:16 PM

Aside from the new angel. the new planeswalkers, and cannonist for the sideboard, I havn't really seen any other card thats worth testing. Gargoyle dies too easily just like windborn muse does. Scourglass is just plain slow.

I think one question that I have for the folks who play this deck, is how do you play it? What are your primary and secondary goals or objectives? [Please don't answer with smart ass 'to win'-type answers]

The metagame which your playing at, may actually affect the way you play stax as well.

Against an unknown opponent on the first game,I play the deck and primarily focus on the lock at first, I don't usually rely on a smokestack win but rather an angel win (this is because most decks here are aggro oriented with a few combo and some control) . Once I know their deck, then I switch strategies, siding out angel against decks that I think would be better off winning via lock like threshold. Im not sure if this is the right way to play against thresh, but thats how I decided on the last tournament I went to.

I primarily focus on the lock, wanting trinispheres and chalices early followed by magus of the tabernacle to stall the game , even win with him if it permits or a game ending armageddon. If I get a very good lock early my primary win con is smokestack/armageddon,if not I go angel which is really important for an agrro metagame. Most times I go down to 8 or below life before I even get to stabilize.

I mostly play the same general list except that I do not run the tabernacle land and armageddon 5/6(which is ravages of war).5 armageddon effects would have been perfect, but since I don't have ravages. I replace ravages of war with 2 oblivion rings. When alara comes out this will be the place I would test the 2 planes walkers or or the angel.

_erbs_

09-24-2008, 03:13 AM

Hello,
Its been awhile since ive played magic for about 4-5 years or so, during the last legacy tournament ive played in i fought with geddon stax, and sad to say i just rolled over it. I din't know what his exact deck list was, but i was expecting that i will defenitly loose bec im using a white aggro deck. I had i high hopes in stax decks cause before i stopped playing magic i tinkered over several stax deck for legacy but i end up using wildfire stax during those times there where no magus of taberncale then.

I haven't played with any geddon stax other than that but, just a curious question on the geddon stax players here, i dont see any wrath of god nor swords to plowshares on the sb list, but what are you going to do when the magus of tabernacle + geddon + smokestack lock isn't online when faced with a easy to cast whamo creature like ernham or calciderm. I know oblivion ring can deal with that temporarly thats why i like them.

I guess what im trying to say is a typical senario is something like this. i control 2 serra avenger and 1 or 2 diamonds & 1 or 2 lands while the geddon stax player controls a magus of tabernacle, trinisphere, and without a draw engine or library manipulation while you wait for a smokestack or a geddon and when your opponent can overcome the temporary soft lock his more or less going to beat you to a pulp when he draws a SoFI or Jitte. Like what happened when i played against the geddon stax. Trinishpere, magus + geddon combo didnt affect the deck im using.

And with no anti enchantment / artifact nor pithing needle on several SBs just only depending on smokestack or oblivion ring to deal with it is kinda slow.

I know tons of play test have already done in the geddon stax deck by different player i know cause a stax deck needs alot of practice to be able to play it at its maximum potential.

has anybody tried using Endless Horizons (http://magiccards.info/eve/en/4.html), thus thinning the deck so you could build the lock faster.

The Wes

09-24-2008, 10:21 AM

First on endless horizon, it just doesn't suit the deck. It still only allows you to put one land into play a turn. Costs such that it usually isn't played till turn 3 and effect the game till turn 4. By that time you should have plenty of lands or are already in trouble. It also takes the plains out of the deck so there is less flagstone>plains interactions. Also, what do you take out for it? It isn't a lock piece, we dont' run that many plains, and we already have crucible to help with land problems. Perhaps in another deck...

One piece of the puzzle that you didn't seem to have to deal with in your run in against stax was ghostly prison or windborn muse. Personally I dont' think most agro strategies are what this deck fears at all. Just out of my own list I run 3 x magus, 2 x tabernacle, 4 x prison, 2 x muse. Those along with 4 armageddons seem to deal with most agro, unless I get unlucky, rather well. I know that my deck runs a bit more anti agro effects than some decks, with the extra tabernacle and 2 muses, but still. Hell, I even run 2 x cataclysm because of the randomness of many meta's I play in. Also, andy deck that runs equipment like jitte makes me want to bring in my s fields.

I think running a sb with no anti enchant/artifact removal or pithing is a wrong move overall. I dont' remember any though that didn't at least run o ring.

f|i[p]

09-24-2008, 04:22 PM

Welll I have encountered that problem during the gP, a single meddling mage equipped with a jitte killed me, this is also because he had counter back up. Ghostly prisons doesn't actually stop single creatures from killing you, armageddons with prisons only delay them for a couple of turns, unless they never draw a land.

If you don't get a good hand and a lock early on its usually game over if they get a creature equipped with jitte, unless you can top deck an O. ring or magus/geddon in time. A single creature swinging with a jitte, SOFI actually hurts this deck a lot. Solution will almost always be, get the lock early, delay it until you can get the lock , O. ring, MAgus and armageddon.

I don't actually think we have a problem with swarm aggro. Singleton creatures protected by counter spells is usually what gives me a problem. . I really don't see armageddon stax rolling over to aggro that isn't protected by counterspells. Each player has his own version and own list, but as of the general list, It won't roll over to aggro at all. Maybe he was playing a different list or a different version of stax.

The Wes

09-24-2008, 05:36 PM

And as we all know there is always the chance that the deck just craps out. It happens, and boy does it look terrible when it does.

Yeah, and yes, singleton creatures with a sword can be rather problematic, luckily jitte is easier to hate on with s field.

_erbs_

09-24-2008, 10:36 PM

Hello,
being a stax player myself and having an idea what geddon stax weak points are because it doesn't run STP or fast anti creature cards in it, i used that style to beat my opponent, having a gut feel during the tourny that im pretty sure geddon stax doesn't have any STP nor a draw engine i only casted 2 threats or have threats that could swing for 4 damage per turn.

@The Wes
maybe he dosen't have windborn muse but he had executed a magus + geddon combo plus trinishpere in play but i just played through it.

@f|i[p]
we regards to swarm aggro yes the deck could handle it, people who plays swarm aggro most likely is not familiar with a stax deck or doesn't have equips to boost damage. Thats why i specified in my example where ernham djinn or cacliderm type of creatures that could be easily casted on the 3rd turn

Well yes you need to delay them to get your lock parts online but having no tanglewire which could help in that category and zero draw engine and zero library manipulation your just depending on luck and the 4 offs of the cards which could be bad at times when that specific card has been casted already it will be just smokestack food.

The deck i used had zero counter magic, though on game 2 i had an excellent opening hand i dropped a 2nd turn exalted angel then lock the game for him casting geddon on my 3rd turn.

@The Wes
With regards to endless horizons what it does is it thins the deck so that you'll dont end up drawing more plains instead of a lock part. I know its kinda slow if only its casting cost where 2W it would be great.

____________________________________________________________

If only the deck could deal with:
1. "singleton creatures" .
2. achieve a fast soft lock or an efficient way in delaying the opponent.
3. draw engine

Before i switched to wildfire stax, i had conducted several tests for the white stax. And during those test phase i found out that maybe a 2 type stax build + your sideboard could work. 2 types meaning pre board your stax deck is designed to deal with aggro while when you use your SB cards the deck is now designed to combat combo decks.

humility for me is an excellent anti creature card combined with ghostly prison, you'll just laugh at your opponent paying 2cc mana so that his 1/1 token could attack.

A build im just thinking im not sure if its viable or could work is with the use of humility and enlightened tutor so could get your lock pieces faster. even without the other lock piece in your hand that 1/1 token could buy you alot of time to get your other lock pieces. but with that build your going to get screwed with combo and control decks thats why the SB list must be composed of cards that could change your deck maybe it will work.

The Wes

09-24-2008, 11:28 PM

I completely agree that it thins the deck. The problem with endless horizons is that it only thins the deck by maybe 7-8 cards max, is subject to you loosing all your plains, is rarely cast before turn 3 and used turn 4, and and negates your flagstones.

I wasn't just comment on him no having windborn, most don't, but your senario also had no prison effects, which is sad for a stax player but just happens sometimes. I do agree that singleton creatures can be a pain, Kor haven has been helping me some with them. I have to say though, that overall I have a winning record against both dragon and faerie stompy which usually rely on a singlton powerful creature and an equipment.

Overall I think I have a much harder time with landstill (recuring mass removal) and survival (damn you so many cards...). Those are the two decks that I always hate going up against.

Fred Bear

09-25-2008, 09:37 AM

I'll weigh in on 'weaknesses' since I've been working with this deck for quite a while. This is going to be a long one since I've got a lot to say on the topic...

Not running Swords to Plowshares is NOT a weakness in Stax. In fact, I will come right out and say that Swords in Stax is just plain bad. The reason for this is that Stax relies on 'virtual' card advantage. To explain further, the Stax player requires that each one of his cards negates more than 1 of his opponents. In the case of Swords, you will eliminate 1 creature for the cost of 1, 1CC card. By doing this, you weaken the Stax deck because you can either (A) not cast a Chalice at 1 or (B) cast Chalice at 1 and not cast your Swords. Chalice at 1 is a much stronger play. There are other instances of this that come up from time-to-time. Chalice at 1 is better than Enlightened Tutor. Pithing Needle is often better than Chalice at 1.

Playing against 'Swarm Aggro' is NOT a weakness in Stax. (I will use my experience with Goblins as an example since it is probably still one of the top 'swarm'-style decks.) I do not mean to sound ignorant, but, if you are having issues with Aggro, it is because you do not understand the match-up. Ghostly Prison is a strong card against aggro, but it is not the key card. As erbs points out, it's almost comical watching some opponents pay 2 to deal 1 damage (I often ask if they play Flare, too - for the draw), though, there are times when it is worth it (i.e. Lackey). If the Goblins player pays 2 to hit you with a Lackey and tosses out Siege-Gang, you're in trouble because they now have an alternative path to victory. This is why you will find (after hours and hours of testing) that Magus of the Tabernacle is the real key against most good Aggro decks. Magus (and Tabernacle land) ties up their mana and blocks (not the land obviously - which is why I don't recommend playing it), which is the real benefit. Yes, sometimes you will get hit with a massive Piledriver, but it's because you'll get to block a Lackey or a Warchief or a Siege-Gang, whichever will hurt their position the most. Honestly, if you're not comfortable playing a deck that stabilizes at less than 5 life sometimes, Stax is probably not for you. Where Stax really shines is when you combine Prison with Tabernacle, either with Armageddon, or all three together. This is because you now get that 'virtual' card advantage. Prison + Magus = Opponent with permanents that do nothing. Prison + Armageddon = Opponent with permanents that can't attack. Magus + Armageddon = Opponent with not so many permanents. Prison + Magus + Armageddon = Very frustrated aggro opponent. That, my friend, is synergy.

The 'Lone Wolf' strategy IS often a problem for Stax. In pre-'Goyf Legacy, the worst play this deck could see was Swamp, Ritual, Negator. This opening put you on a 4 turn clock to find at least 2 puzzle pieces (I say 2 because even a Magus alone didn't really stop this since they would just kill it before the attack without a Chalice/Trinisphere for protection). In the post-'Goyf era, a turn 2 'Goyf is one of the worst things you can see. But understanding WHY this is a problem is something that is often lost on the average Stax player. WHY is it a problem? Because the deck's strategy is to look for 'virtual' card advantage, and to specifically NOT deal with a single threat. The question becomes, then, how do you deal with a single threat? You must try to choose a card that does NOT defeat your overall strategy, but answers the 'problem'. Engineered Explosives is a solid option as it can be adapted to remove a single threat or it can blow up several 'problems'. Powder Keg has the same ability. Recently, Oblivion Ring has gained some favor because it is 'faster' at dealing with higher CC problems (i.e. Tombstalker, Deed, Disk, Crucible, etc.). Identifying that Stax is simply NOT designed to deal with this, though, is the most important first step.

Not having a draw engine is NOT a weakness of Stax. I have listened to this argument for months. I have even tested everything from Bottled Cloister to Sylvan Library to Conch Horn (look it up, I'll wait) trying to find something, anything that would fill that void. The bottom line is... if you can't handle playing a deck that requires you to draw and say go quickly so that you can finish games in time, Stax is probably not for you. Stax wins on the back of inevitability. It is within my opponents rights NOT to concede, even when I have Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, Smokestack at 1, and 6 lands to their empty board. I will eventually find a Factory or Magus and kill them. All a draw engine does is find it faster. If I'm not is such a dominant position, most of the 'recommended' draw engines either potentially slow you down or are flat out horrid in already bad-to-poor match-ups. In my opinion, speeding up the inevitable is a waste of time and giving up against bad match-ups in order to make good ones better is counter-intuitive. And, yes, sometimes you just have to know when to scoop to a poor draw or an opponent who draws the nuts.

@ erbs
To recap your points - The deck can handle singleton creatures - if it is designed that way. The deck should create a soft lock that slows down the opponent until the knock-out punch comes down - sometimes it doesn't and you just have to deal with the occasional game loss (remember a ~55% win percentage still means you lose 10 out of 22 games). A draw engine is entirely unecessary.

Endless Horizons is crap. I would rather thin my deck of Plains through a Smokestack/Crucible/Flagstones than with a 4cc enchantment that does NOTHING to my opponent. With Endless Horizons, you can't play Flagstones since they are un-removable and can't find a Plains after you've played Horizons which will ultimately weaken Armageddon (through the same effect) and strengthen your opponents Krosan Grips (etc.) which DO get played. This card has no place in this deck.

Humility is a nice thought. But, if you are playing in an environment/meta where you want to play Humility... play a different deck. Turning Magus, or Angel if you play her, into a 1/1 with no abilities is a waste. I tested Humility during Flash Prix and it worked to stop Hulk, but ultimately the rest of your deck is better than Humility.

Enlightened Tutor is, in general, bad. I have more recently been tinkering with lists that MD or sideboard it as a 1-of to give a more adaptable deck. I haven't made it work yet and I haven't seen a really 'good' list that utilizes it - yet.

I have also tried the maindeck-sideboard set-up switcheroo (switching from anti-aggro to anti-combo or anti-control). It's an approach is all I'll say. It's definitely a valid way to set up your deck. For me, I got sick of losing game 1s constantly because you 'guessed' wrong on how to set up the deck. I found that it was best to balance the maindeck and 'strengthen' your position out of the sideboard.

I appreciate your comments, but you are little off on your assessment of Stax' weaknesses based on my experiences. I, by no means, would try and tell someone that Stax doesn't have weaknesses because Stax has them just like other decks.

Just my thoughts...
-FB...

(god I make long posts)

Skeggi

09-25-2008, 09:48 AM

(god I make long posts)
QFT. And what's worse: they make sense, so I have to read :cry:

Anyway, thanks Fred, it's all true, but you've all said that before:

No offense, but ever since erbs has posted here about Endless Horizons, he has been making points we have talked and argued about 10 pages ago, and it goes back to probably page 5-ish. It's all old discussion and frankly, I don't feel we should head back. We've been there and done it, no need to talk about it all again.

I can only urge new people to this thread to read a bit into the history of it. I know it's alot, but just browse the keywords. In fact, there's a little summary of alot of stuff here (just press the blue thing):

Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^

It basically covers most findings up to Shards of Alara (Eventide has proven to be shit). After Shards I might make another update there.

when faced with a easy to cast whamo creature like ernham or calciderm. I know oblivion ring can deal with that temporarly thats why i like them.
Besides the fact that no-one uses Ernham Djinn or Calciderms, Oblivion Ring doesn't deal with Calciderm :wink:

Well yes you need to delay them to get your lock parts online but having no tanglewire which could help in that category and zero draw engine and zero library manipulation your just depending on luck and the 4 offs of the cards which could be bad at times when that specific card has been casted already it will be just smokestack food.
You should really read the thread :tongue:

One more thing:

The deck i used had zero counter magic, though on game 2 i had an excellent opening hand i dropped a 2nd turn exalted angel then lock the game for him casting geddon on my 3rd turn.

While this is alot of fun, there has been recent discussion as to why an early Exalted Angel isn't always good, you might want to check it out. The "Angel discussion" started somewhere around here (just press the blue thing...again):

This has been spoiled:
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1300/battlegraceangelsb4.jpg
WotC creates a new Angel to try and give WhiteStax some love...

So please, update yourself and give us your input :smile:

f|i[p]

09-25-2008, 01:10 PM

Endless horizons would simply suck in the deck.It wouldn't be able to provide you anything that would help geddon stax against its bad match ups.

Humility although a strong card, it would just make our slow clock, slower having to rely on man lands. As for me wrath of god on the sideboard has worked wonders for a more aggro metagame.

As for badmatchups, I still have landstill and rock variants as the decks top problem.

Battlegrace angel is on my top list to test for the 2 slots free I have in my deck. I think the angel would suffice,but elspeth may warrant some testing as well.

_erbs_

09-26-2008, 01:50 AM

@Fred Bear
Thanks for the insightful thoughts with regards to stax. True that stax is a deck that relies on card advantage rather than 1 is to 1 trade.

Have you tried playing a legacy red stax that runs wildfire ?

@Skeggi
Sorry i haven't read the earlier posts with regards to endless horizons..

Yes i guess endless horizons wouldn't fit in this deck.

@f|i[p]
Battlegrace Angel just guessing is a slightly better version of Exalted Angel in terms of cc but dies in 4/4 types of creatures with the likes of Jotun Grunt, etc

If only dawn elemental was a 5/3 creature i guess he could be a nice fit as finisher thats hard to kill, i do hope wizzard gives a white creature thats hard to kill, has an effcient cc, and around 4/4 or 4/5 range

Noman Peopled

09-26-2008, 02:49 AM

Battlegrace Angel just guessing is a slightly better version of Exalted Angel in terms of cc but dies in 4/4 types of creatures with the likes of Jotun Grunt, etc

If only dawn elemental was a 5/3 creature i guess he could be a nice fit as finisher thats hard to kill, i do hope wizzard gives a white creature thats hard to kill, has an effcient cc, and around 4/4 or 4/5 range
Battlegrace < than Exalted, imo. For one, Stax doesn't always reach five mana that fast, even with all the accel. Magus, Armageddon and Smokestack all can see to that, and that's not even taking your opponent's actions into account.
You also can't put pressure on your opponent as soon as with Exalted. Sometimes you will have to keep a hand with no relevant t2 action besides a morph psot-t1-Chalice - it's not a very strong play but one the opponent has to answer nonetheless. You can play Exalted as an echo creature, attacking a turn earlier for two additional mana (and part of that cost can be paid for with a land that Smokestack is eating). And perhaps most importantly, I can't count the games in which I was happy for being able to play it as a simple 2/2 even lategame without having to choose between keeping Smokestack on board and casting an attacker.

As for other creatures, all kinds of those have been tried, from Calciderm to Mindcensor. They have merit but in the end, what's ideal for Stax is a creature that makes its lock pieces stronger (all the currently accepted creatures fit the bill). Calciderm doesn't. Mindcensor does in certain metagames, Exalted Angel in most. Battlegrace doesn't until after the turn it's cast because it can't be used defensively as efficiently as Exalted.
The most I'm personally prepared to pay for a creature in Stax is 2WW (per turn) unless it's so powerful that it'd necessitate a new build.

Btw, has Ethersworn Canonist been considered (as a sideboard card against combo or any other capacity)?
I have given it some thought and have come to the conclusion that you probably can't cast it T1 often enough and T2 Trinisphere will do. It can screw with other strategies than combo, though probably not as well as the options already available.
Still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

DeathScythe

09-26-2008, 03:38 AM

Just to state a few things out about the new planeswalker. If you feel like playing it, it might be wise to think about playing moat or any other random permanent that states you can't be attacked.
If you don't you will have to wait untill you opponent has no creatures (or 1 non-trampler)whatsoever untill you can drop it. If you rush it in play anyhow this is how the situation might look like: in the declare attacker step your opponent pays 4 to attack you with 2 creatures (piledrivers??) and rushes the rest to your planeswalker, tbh I don't like the sound of that but it could me just me.
My best geuss is that the planeswalker is good but it will be only functional if you either have a hardlock (in with case you basicly won already) or if you just woggeddoned away thier creatures which is a damn godo positio to be in anyway

REgarding the cannonist, rejected we don't play rule of law which is better (less easy to hate for example) and can be played during the same turn

Skeggi

09-26-2008, 04:25 AM

Btw, has Ethersworn Canonist been considered (as a sideboard card against combo or any other capacity)?
I have given it some thought and have come to the conclusion that you probably can't cast it T1 often enough and T2 Trinisphere will do. It can screw with other strategies than combo, though probably not as well as the options already available.
Still, I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Are you trying to piss me off? I just made a whole point about reading the fucking thread.

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/3757/ethersworncanonistyn1.jpg
This post doesn't cover alot about the card, but read back and you'll find quite a discussion about it.

Fred Bear

09-26-2008, 06:34 AM

You'll have to forgive Skeggi, I think his aunt flo may be visiting (:wink:)...

I have played Wildfire Stax, but I frankly didn't like it as much as 'Geddon Stax. Wildfire at 6 just seemed a little slow for the effect (Geddon gets all lands for 4). I also tried several of the Red/Green Stax configurations (I really wish Welder was good in Legacy or Uba Stax in general for that matter), but ultimately kept coming back to White because Armageddon is so good. I'm not at all saying it's a bad deck, I just prefer White Stax.

Battlegrace Angel will turn out to be a flop (at least that's my prediction). She will probably prove to be worse than Exalted both because a 7 mana investment over 2 turns is easier on Stax' manabase (there really is a huge difference between WW2 and WW3 - I'd go to cc6 before I rule out finishers, personally) and Exalted can gain you life blocking. Stax really wants either an indestructible creature (Konda is too slow, I've tried) or something that recurs (Chronosavant is too slow, too, though it's pretty mean with a ramped Smokestack - i.e. return to play ramp Smokestack to 2 :tongue:). Until they print something to fill that void, Mishra's Factory is about as good as it gets and I'll stick to the Factory and Magus until something better floats along (I do often stick a 1- or 2- of creature into the deck if I expect a lot of Extirpate and I also board creatures).

Ethersworn Canonist is another one that I don't like for this deck (at least not in the main). It's a cheaper Rule of Law that winds up being more fragile. I wouldn't disagree with using it in the sideboard, but I've sided COP: Green before, so some people might just think I'm a little off when it comes to sideboarding.

I understand Deathscythe's comments about the Plainswalker, but... (A) give us a little credit for playskill - I don't think anyone here is going to drop this guy on an empty board thinking they are going to eventually gain an 'indestructible' board and (B) I don't think he's automatically 'win-more'. What I really like about the card, is that he can act as both a stall AND a win (I always like 'utility' cards in Stax). You can use Elspeth to simply buy you a couple of turns while you set up a full lock (he provides his own speedbumps) or you can play him out and attack with 5/9 flying Tabernacles. There will be times when he is win-more (same can be said for Angel) and there will be times when he is vulnerable (same can be said for Angel). The nice thing (on paper anyhow) is that Elspeth has the ability to affect the board without you making any decisions (or mistakes :smile:). I'm not willing to write him off just yet.

-FB...

Noman Peopled

09-26-2008, 11:24 AM

Are you trying to piss me off? I just made a whole point about reading the fucking thread.
I apologize for cluttering the thread with a question that has been already debated. It would have been immensely helpful if the thread search for "Canonist" had shown more than three posts (of which mine is the oldest), as I don't have the time to scan every thread I post on for pictures or misspellings at this time.

@ white Planeswalker:
Producing a 1/1 each turn is good with Smokestack but as a win condition, it's rather lackluster. It could also alleviate the "one creature problem" provided the opponent doesn't have evasion. In that case, it goes online even earlier than Exalted.
Chumping is all it does in such a situation, though. It's kind of awkward in attack mode.
It also assumes that you have stopped your opponent from attacking with more than one creature, else the Walker will be dead very soon.

It's almost worthless if you have Tabernacle/Magus but not Smokestack. Considering many cards and the whole deck concept already have tremendous synergy with Smokestack, I don't think it needs another way to keep it online.
The indestructibility effect comes online when you should've stabilized already. All I can see it do is Elspeth being followed by Geddon, a build-up-again phase, then indestructibility and Geddon again. Seems unreliable.

Fred Bear

09-26-2008, 12:23 PM

I'll try this again with the Planeswalker...

The power of the Planeswalker is that he can be used in numerous ways. He can play as a lock piece and provide Smokestack fodder (ability 1). He can play as a distraction and draw resources away from my opponent's primary goal (winning the game/match) (ability 1 and the threat of ability 3 - which the FAQ clarifies is a continuous effect from the point of activation until the end of the game including artifacts/lands/creatures/enchantments played after the activation). And Elspeth can play as a win condition by pumping existing creatures or creating one and then pumping it (ability 2 and maybe ability 1).

You're right, winning with an army of 1/1s would be a waste and other cards could be just as easily used as the win condition in that case, but being able to create a 1/1 (again and again if it gets killed/sacrificed) and then being able to attack for a few turns with a 4/4 flyer (all building loyalty counters with the inherent threat of an indestructible board) is pretty sweet for the cost of 1, 4cc card.

I really can't encourage folks playing and testing this deck to take lots of notes about the situations that arise during games. I have always found that you wind up in a suprising number of situations where you are 1 'card' off and having a way to buy you even 1 or 2 turns would be amazing. After going through a lot of my notes, if I substitute the Planeswalker into my hand in a lot of those situations - it has the potential to change the outcome.

I'm not saying that it is the 'best'. I'm not even saying its an 'auto-include'. I'm just saying that on paper - this is one of the top candidates for this deck from Shards.

-FB...

f|i[p]

09-26-2008, 08:07 PM

I don't think we should dismiss elspeth,the cannonist or the angel without really testing them.

I will be running 3 exalted angel and 2 battlegrace angels in my testing. There were times where I had exalted in hand and didnt want to put them down as a 2/2 creature. Waiting for 6 mana can hurt, while battlgrace may get down sooner in those situations and may even be gaining you life as soon as she is down with magus and factory in play.

Don't dismiss anything you haven't really tested.

With 2 slots open in my deck, It will be either battlegrace, elspeth or back to old Oblivion ring.

DeathScythe

09-27-2008, 12:58 PM

Dispelling elspeth would be wrong, I've been tseting the walker for three straight days now and I must say that I like it. If you don't draw it, continue your plan as usual, if you happen to draw it you have the ability to switch into a lot of diffent plans. With the slight side-effect that if your opponent doesn't find an awnser soon enough things could get really messy for them. The +3/+3 flyer effect has been most usefull untill now, this is also due to the fact that I run moats

I'm going to test elspeth on the 4th on a legacy tournament, assuming I can get my hands on 2 of them by that time and drop a result over here

_erbs_

09-28-2008, 10:19 PM

I guess it will all depend on your preferences if you use exalted angel or battlegrace angel.

They have there pros and cons, but what i don't like about the battlegrace angel is that she can't be used as a blocker for cause 4/4 is kinda weak, yes she costs 1cc less but its like playing a serra angel. yes she would have a stronger offensive power by 1 point compared to exalted or serra if shes the only one that would attack.

Guys are you prepared for this equipment card

Quietus Spike
Artifact - Equipment
Equipped creature has deathtouch.
Whenever equipped creature deals combat damage to a player, that player loses half his or her life, rounded up.
Equip 3

With no direct removal this is going to be a pain with no recuring mishra to block it.

Arsenal

09-28-2008, 10:25 PM

What's the casting cost on this bad boy?

f|i[p]

09-28-2008, 11:42 PM

Don't get me wrong erbs, I'm not replacing exalted angels with battlegrace angels. I am playing 2 battlegrace angels(or elspeth) IN ADDITION to exalted angels.

I don't think that quietus spike equipment will be played in legacy.

Skeggi

09-29-2008, 02:47 AM

What's the casting cost on this bad boy?

:3:

I've been testing Ajani myself. Remember, that other planeswalker we got so excited about when he spoiled. He has proven useful, but I haven't tested him enough; basically so far, against MUC, I used ability #1 to slow him down, and when he had 7 loyalty counters, it was win :smile:

I've seen others use his Lightning Helix first turn he comes into play, which is still an ok thing to do I guess, because after that he's still a threat that needs to be removed, and sometimes, they can't and they get that 1 sided Geddon thrown at them. I like Ajani, but as said before, he needs more testing.

About the Canonist:
I don't see any value over Rule of Law. In fact, I think I would prefer Rule of Law. But that card doesn't even make it to my sideboard.

About Elspeth:
I think Ajani is probably better. His second and third ability are alot better than Elspeth's. Ofcourse, Elspeth doesn't require the red splash. But still, 1 soldier per turn...when he was spoiled as 2 soldiers per turn, yeah, he rocked. But now, I think he kinda sucks. The flying ability seems win more. The last ability still needs a Geddon to be broken. Guess what: Ajani's ability is a Geddon without your land being destroyed.

I'm not saying Elspeth is bad. I just think you'd rather have Ajani filling those slots. I do find, when playing any Planeswalker, you're potentially making a Goyf bigger. Extra Goyf-carefulness is in place.

About Battlegrace Angel:
As said before probably best used in combination with Exalted Angel: if you're running 3 Exalted Angels, it's probably worth it to drop 1 for Battlegrace for instance.

The Wes

09-29-2008, 09:27 AM

hugh1130

09-29-2008, 05:33 PM

I think a 12/12 trampler is still more of a problem than that equipment. Either ways, 3 to cast, 3 to equip is a lot for many decks. I don't think we'll have to deal with it that much except for maybe in a random deck or two, but this is legacy, we're used to randomness.

from my expiernce with the equipment at prerealse

a 1/1 swinging twice to bring you to 4 is really tough to stand down.

_erbs_

09-29-2008, 09:35 PM

Im guessing several sui decks likes slygoyf , burn decks, or slyhanna ledgewalker type decks would be definitely use Quietus Spike. Imagine that all of your opponents 1/1 critter could smack you like a phyrexian dreadnought. With no recuiring blockers the angels or magus can't even match those 1/1 critters.

The Wes

09-29-2008, 10:25 PM

It still costs 3 to play, then 3 to equip, and it subject to most other decks instant removal. There are a lot worse things that the opponent can do turn three and four that I'd worry about more. I can't see it being that big of a problem, its not that hard to have an a factory online by turn 4, and so what if it gets deathtouched, thats why we recure. If we've let then get to the point that they can pay to drop it, pay to equip it, then attack after paying tabernacle and ghostly costs all in the same turn then we already have some problems. If they have have to do it two different turns then it shouldn't be a surprize. We run side board o rings to try and stop it, and s fields to make it so they aren't realisticly even going to equip it before turn 5. I'm not saying it wouldn't be problematic, but in legacy there are a lot worse things to see on the other side of the table. Dreadnaught can have you dead turn 4 with the right hand and so can many other decks and you are really that worried about a card that could make you loose half you life turn 4? I'm much more worried about all the artifact/enchant destruction of goyfsly decks, and I dont' remember ever having a problem with a ledgewalker deck. Any mono red burn deck shouldn't be running creatures anyway, especially not enough to support equipment. Jitte scares me more, swords of light and shadow/fire and ice scare me more.

Skeggi

09-30-2008, 02:54 AM

First off, with Chalice@1 or Trinisphere, Dreadnought is hard to get through. When he does get through, he often poses a problem indeed, if you have no Oblivion Ring or Aura of Silence.

I think underestimating Quietus Spike is dumb. Rather than saying "Bah, we don't have to come up with something against it, it won't be played much, or the threat won't be so big." I'd like to say "Okay, even if the odds are against it, if this poses as a threat in Goyf Sligh or White Weenie or Eva Green for instance, what can we do about it?".

The obvious answer to question number 2 is: a recurring Factory. While this is a very good way to deal with a threat, it limits your land drops, and that has killed me a few times in the past. So I'd like to hear another solution? Maze of Iths? Kor Havens? Oblivion Rings? They all sound like good sollutions, but what would be best? Arguably, I think Oblivion Ring, since it's such an all-round threat remover. With the current gamestate with the new Planeswalkers and other nasty stuff, I think I must conclude Oblivion Ring will have 2 or 3 spots in my main deck. I'm also reconsidering Kor Haven, since Oblivion Ring is a slower answer.

badjuju

10-02-2008, 09:03 PM

kidsmokin

10-02-2008, 09:15 PM

Keep in mind (I'm sure you all already know, but just as a reminder) that Elspeth is not protected by Ghostly Prison (same with Ajani Vengeant). This could be pretty relevant in several cases, but as FB argues - buying 1 or even 2 turns can prove to be crucial plays. If Elspeth STICKS, then she'll be a ridiculous amount of time bought. Note that Elspeth herself is unaffected by Magus of the Tabernacle, but the soldier tokens generated have anti-synergy with Magus of the Tabernacle.

Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.

Something to think about. And I fully support O-Ring in the MD, stupid random problems get solved by it. I think I personally MD'd 3, though I think 2 is the better number.

Edit: Regarding Quietus Spike, as long as you have MD Oblivion Ring I don't see an issue, but if it becomes common, just run more O-Ring. O-Ring might be slow, but it virtually catches everything so the trade-off seems worthwhile. Or board in artifact hate. There's not too much to it. But I don't think Quietus Spike will see a whole lot of play, they'd much rather, you know, run a dude or some more burn/disruption.

badjuju

10-02-2008, 09:52 PM

Skeggi

10-03-2008, 03:19 AM

Imagine Giant Growth-ing+Jumping your Tabernacle each turn to beat face for 5 each turn, which STILL helps get towards the whole Indestructible shenanigans. Hell, except for the Lifelink and the whole "you need two cards" deal it's (kind of almost but not really) just as good as Exalted Angel...and by that I mean 10000x more ghetto-esque.

This is so wrong. Elspeth doesn't complement or replace Exalted Angel in any way. Remember you can't use Elspeth's ability when trying to block for instance. That's a big shortcoming in my perspective. This is an aggressive ability, and we have no use for it.

Let me just paint a clear picture on how I view the two new Planeswalkers:

Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
Elspeth's second ability is near useless. We're not a stompy deck. If you want to build a deck that pounds face, you shouldn't play Stax. We're all about the taxing effects, which lead to control, and finally, a hardlock. Jumping and pumping creatures is fun, but it's not a good reason to include Elspeth.
Elspeth's third ability is only useful in combination with Armageddon. If she ever gets there. May I remind you, she starts at 4, so she needs at least 4 more turns to accomplish this. If you want to use this ability against, say, Trygon Predator, Elspeth will be long gone by then, as her face has been stomped by that same Predator. If you want to use this ability against Krosan Grip or Shattering Spree, your artifacts will be long gone before Elspeth reaches this ability. So: only good with Armageddon. And Armageddon is already good with a card called Crucible of Worlds. I guess that card rings a bell with you guys.
So, in short: there are no good reasons to run Elspeth. She doesn't fill any gaps or weaknesses Stax has. She is total, complete and utter rubbish in Stax (yes, now I'm saying Elspeth is bad :wink:).

Now, I'll move on to Ajani.

Ajani's first ability complements the idea of Stax. It helps slow the opponent down, and does buy time. It's not the reason why we want Ajani, but it helps.
Ajani's second ability is spot removal! Something we lack in Stax. That's nice, this guy shoots the Trygon Predator right out of the air, and wipes the smile of the smuck face of your opponent who thinks he has you by dropping a Predator. It also kills early Goyf and Bob. Not too shabby ey? Oh, there's more: on top of things, you also gain 3 life. Now that's a fun bonus to something that rocks.
Ajani's third ability is a one sided Armageddon. Against some decks, you will see you can actually use it, as I've pointed out before, a match against MUC for instance, this is pretty useful. Once Ajani is on the table, this ability can't be countered. Bye-bye MUC. I'm sure it's useful in other match-ups as well.
I still can't really conclude Ajani is worth the trouble, but if you are going to run a Planeswalker, Ajani is the one to throw in your deck. I'm playing with two Plateaus (and two Ajani's) and I've never had a problem to produce the :r:.

Noman Peopled

10-03-2008, 05:31 AM

Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
You missed that the token can chump. I remember beaing beaten by a single Goyf that my opponent can pay for on a semi-regular basis. It's not like an opponent is likely to blow his Deed/Explosives @ zero.
Also, to whoever said that Magus and Elspeth don't mix: if you're chumping, this is irrelevant. If you're attacking, you can pump Magus instead.

Apart from that, I tend to agree.
Elspeth does complement the anti-aggro lock pieces (and Smokestack) to a certain extent but I'm really not sure if that's enough given that its second ability is hardly unique and its third will often win games you'd have won anyway.

Essentially, Ajani does the same thing to a single big attacker. It's worse if your opponent has some creatures to choose from. But it is much more versatile, being able to play Stone Rain until there's something to burn and the like.
Removal is something Stax is in very short supply of, and despite not being able to kill Mongeese and Goyfs, the second ability is clearly more useful than Elspeth's in my view. (At least one guy was boarding a full number of Teegs and MMages for the Stax matchup ...) Needless to say, lifegain can be huge here. //edit: oh, and killing permanents should help with Stack.
The third ability is not something I'd be counting on bringing online but at least it doesn't need Armageddon or an opponent's late-late-late-game bomb topdeck to be effective.

Skeggi

10-03-2008, 05:43 AM

You missed that the token can chump. I remember beaing beaten by a single Goyf that my opponent can pay for on a semi-regular basis. It's not like an opponent is likely to blow his Deed/Explosives @ zero.

A recurring chumpblocker for :2::w::w: doesn't seem worth the trouble :smile: Besides, after you use it to chump, he can't be used for Smokestack, which was the main reason Elspeth would be interresting.

Fred Bear

10-03-2008, 07:21 AM

This is so wrong. Elspeth doesn't complement or replace Exalted Angel in any way. Remember you can't use Elspeth's ability when trying to block for instance. That's a big shortcoming in my perspective. This is an aggressive ability, and we have no use for it.

Let me just paint a clear picture on how I view the two new Planeswalkers:

Elspeth's first ability is useful, it lets your Smokestack stick at two. But so can Flagstones and God's Eye to the Reikai. No real need here to get Elspeth.
Elspeth's second ability is near useless. We're not a stompy deck. If you want to build a deck that pounds face, you shouldn't play Stax. We're all about the taxing effects, which lead to control, and finally, a hardlock. Jumping and pumping creatures is fun, but it's not a good reason to include Elspeth.
Elspeth's third ability is only useful in combination with Armageddon. If she ever gets there. May I remind you, she starts at 4, so she needs at least 4 more turns to accomplish this. If you want to use this ability against, say, Trygon Predator, Elspeth will be long gone by then, as her face has been stomped by that same Predator. If you want to use this ability against Krosan Grip or Shattering Spree, your artifacts will be long gone before Elspeth reaches this ability. So: only good with Armageddon. And Armageddon is already good with a card called Crucible of Worlds. I guess that card rings a bell with you guys.
So, in short: there are no good reasons to run Elspeth. She doesn't fill any gaps or weaknesses Stax has. She is total, complete and utter rubbish in Stax (yes, now I'm saying Elspeth is bad :wink:).

Now, I'll move on to Ajani.

Ajani's first ability complements the idea of Stax. It helps slow the opponent down, and does buy time. It's not the reason why we want Ajani, but it helps.
Ajani's second ability is spot removal! Something we lack in Stax. That's nice, this guy shoots the Trygon Predator right out of the air, and wipes the smile of the smuck face of your opponent who thinks he has you by dropping a Predator. It also kills early Goyf and Bob. Not too shabby ey? Oh, there's more: on top of things, you also gain 3 life. Now that's a fun bonus to something that rocks.
Ajani's third ability is a one sided Armageddon. Against some decks, you will see you can actually use it, as I've pointed out before, a match against MUC for instance, this is pretty useful. Once Ajani is on the table, this ability can't be countered. Bye-bye MUC. I'm sure it's useful in other match-ups as well.
I still can't really conclude Ajani is worth the trouble, but if you are going to run a Planeswalker, Ajani is the one to throw in your deck. I'm playing with two Plateaus (and two Ajani's) and I've never had a problem to produce the :r:.

I'm going to go ahead and... ummm... disagree with you until this is more fully tested and someone provides (multiple) examples of how she doesn't help or the cat helps more. Your comments are very speculative and opinion-based.

I would encourage you to try and think about it from a different perspective. In my limited testing to this point, she has proved very useful.

Elspeth is not just Mobilization 2.0. She's not just providing chump blockers, she's buying you time. When you draw and play her, your opponent is going to take their focus off you. When Elspeth cranks out a Soldier, it is to block for herself, not for you. A lot of times, this will buy you 3 or more turns to find something else to hammer your opponent with. I would think we could all agree that 3 turns is worth 2WW?

Elspeth is not Angel. Why do you play Angel, though? I haven't played Angel or advocated for it in nearly a year. Angel is not a lock piece, she does not provide any resource denial, she doesn't provide a 'tax' ability. She is a choice for playing a win condition. She has lifelink which will bail you out on occassion, but I encourage you to look at the number of times she bailed you out vs the number of times it did not matter (I took her out and haven't suffered in any match-up because of it - that should tell you what my testing showed). Elspeth's second ability, though, will speed you to victory once you are in position to use it. 5/5 flying Factories are even a little bit faster than 4/5 Angels. You don't play Elspeth for this ability. You use this ability because you play Elspeth.

'The Threat', though, is what buys you 3 turns and allows you to pump Factories to end the game quickly. 'The Threat' is that you will pump out 5 soldiers and win on your next turn. Think of this like a nuclear weapon, you hope you never use it, but just by having it - you gain respect. Look at the game-states it potentially creates - Deed is invalidated, EE is invalidated, Krosan Grip is invalidated, Factories, Magus, and Soldier tokens never die, Armageddon is only devastating on one side of the board... Those are all pretty horrible situations for your opponent. He knows that which is why he will try to remove Elspeth before he goes after you.

If you simply think about Elspeth as a 'trick' to ramp a Smokestack, you are missing the boat. Elspeth is an extremely efficient card for a deck that absolutely loves cards that generate virtual advantages. I'm not going to say this is exactly what Stax needed or even recommend that anyone play it in a tournament, yet. But this definitely deserves more thorough testing.

Ajani, on the other hand, hasn't proved as efficient as I had once hoped. The big cat requires a new mana base for starters. That doesn't make it unplayable, but it's not necessarily positive.

The first ability is good in the situations where you need it. Other times, it doesn't really effect the board (I'm looking at you Landstill). Unfortunately, Deed doesn't require tapping for activation.

The second ability draws loyalty away from Ajani while removing troublesome creatures. But I don't have trouble with aggro and this ability can't hit manlands. For the most part, the creatures would've been attacking Ajani and not me anyways. Again, useful, but not as efficient in practice as on paper.

To get to the final ability, you need to tap down for 4 turns while your opponent does nothing. If you are tapping lands and he isn't attacking, he doesn't have creatures and you probably would've won anyways. If you are tapping creatures and he isn't playing lands and developing his board, he's probably mana screwed or something and you probably would've won anyways. Yes, it's a powerful ability if you get it off (it can be Stifled or Needled don't forget), but it's probably not necessary to your winning (that's not to say it won't work in some match-ups - I haven't seen a lot of MUC lately).

These are choices that are not as clear as you make them sound, at least not without actual testing.

-FB...

Skeggi

10-03-2008, 08:05 AM

Hey Fred, thanks for your time :smile:

Angel is not a lock piece
Actually, I think Angel is a lock piece. We've talked about the 'Angellock' before, and this concept has proven useful to me many times. It is however, completely besides the discussion of the Planeswalkers, which I think deserves our focus now.

Elspeth is not just Mobilization 2.0. She's not just providing chump blockers, she's buying you time. When you draw and play her, your opponent is going to take their focus off you. When Elspeth cranks out a Soldier, it is to block for herself, not for you. A lot of times, this will buy you 3 or more turns to find something else to hammer your opponent with. I would think we could all agree that 3 turns is worth 2WW?
The fact that Elspeth takes the focus off you counts for every Planeswalker. They all scream "Kill me fast, because when I can cast my third ability, you're probably fucked."

Elspeth and Ajani both have the ability to hold off a creature attacking them; however, one can argue at which is most effective at it. I think Ajani is, because he can also stop flyers. Your arguement is that these cards buy us time, say three turns, to find a hammer. Aren't there any better cards that buy us more time? Oblivion Ring comes to mind (buys X turns for :2::w:, seems better)...The fact that Planeswalkers draw focus and stall isn't enough. We need something else. If we compare Elspeth's second ability to Ajani's, we can easily conclude Ajani's second ability is much better and seems very useful. However, Elspeth's second ability still builds her loyalty. It seems much more likely that Elspeth's third ability will be used, but as you know, there are ways around indestructibility. I'm also saying it seems, because both Planeswalkers are more likely to die than to actually get that third ability through. The question is: what will they have accomplished before they die. I know here is the part only testing can point out; but I think Ajani will probably have shot down a few creatures, while Elspeth probably only has pooped out a couple of soldiers, which may or may not have recieved a boost. Ajani seems more viable because of all the things I've mentioned; and still I'm also doubting the usefulness of Ajani. But by all means, please test Elspeth, prove me wrong and make Stax incredibly broken, I would love for that to happen. I just think you shouldn't get your hopes up.

P.S. There is an occasional MUC in my meta. In fact, MUC won a pretty big tournament in Mol, Belgium approximately two months ago.

Nihil Credo

10-03-2008, 08:12 AM

Why do you play Angel, though? I haven't played Angel or advocated for it in nearly a year. Angel is not a lock piece, she does not provide any resource denial, she doesn't provide a 'tax' ability.

Disagree here. Angel *is* synergistic with the rest of White Stax (and synergy is extremely important in a deck with no digging).

Every card in the deck other than Chalice and Crucible focuses on a single purpose: to make it impossibly expensive for your opponent to lower your life totals. Trinisphere, Ghostly Prison, and the Tabernacle trigger do it by asking your opponent to pay more mana for it. Smokestack, Wasteland and Armageddon do it by reducing the amount of mana they have available. And finally, Magus of the Tabernacle's 2/6 body, Kor Haven, Crucible/Mishra, and Exalted Angel's lifegain do it by nullifying a chunk of your opponent's attacking force (one attacker's worth for the first three, 4 power for the latter).

Back to the Alara Planeswalkers, I haven't tested Elspeth, but I've played some games with Ajani Vengeur, and he's... problematic. Namely, I run far too often into my opponent playing a new creature after Ajani hits the board, and killing him with that, while neither Ajani nor Ghostly Prison can do anything about it. If I can stop that creature from attacking Ajani it means I could already ignore it somehow (exception: Factory chump-blocking with no Crucible).
I think I'll try to fit Ajani in a sort of Stax spin-off. I'm looking at something like this:

24 lands incl. Tombs and Factories, but maybe not the full Cities
4 Mox Diamond
2 Chrome Mox?

4 Chalice
4 Crucible

4 Burning Wish?
3+1 Firespout

2+1 Boom/Bust
3+1 Armageddon
4 Humility

3 Ajani
3 Elspeth (SO wish this could be Garruk)

sunshine

10-03-2008, 08:25 AM

Hey I'd like to pick up this deck, would anyone mind posting a current list?

Skeggi

10-03-2008, 08:38 AM

Hey I'd like to pick up this deck, would anyone mind posting a current list?

Press the blue thing! Here! ^^^
Oh, and Nihil, here ya go (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11388) :smile:

Fred Bear

10-03-2008, 09:47 AM

On Angel...
I never said that Angel wasn't synergistic or good - because it is (remember this deck came from an Angel Stax beginning). I said it was unecessary and I should have added 'at this point in development'. Skeggi is right, you can consider the Angel a lock piece in situations where you can negate your opponents attacks by gaining 4 life a turn. What I found, and it may differ from what you have seen, was that (1) most of the singleton creatures I was having a problem with in difficult-to-even match-ups were not affected enough by Angel if she made it into the mix (Tarmogoyf is typically a 5/6, Tombstalker is a 5/5, Dreadnought is a 12/12) without other support and (2) the match-ups/situations where Angel-lock was relevant were not significantly hurt without it, i.e. it was a tool which could be used to complete the job, but it wasn't necessarily the 'best tool for the job'. (Again, I'm not saying that you can't play Angel. I'm merely suggesting that those slots are not necessarily optimized.)

On Ajani...
I think Nihil said it better than I did, but to paraphrase - Ajani is clunky. If you need to use the second ability, Ajani won't last long anyways. If you don't need to use the second ability, Ajani probably isn't necessary. Your only hope of getting to the third ability is through the first ability and if Ajani is using the first ability, he's not using the second, so he's probably not necessary. Confusing, yes. Useful, maybe. I would again agree with Nihil that he is probably best served in a different (yet possibly similar) deck.

On Elspeth...
I'm not at all predicting Elspeth to be the piece that breaks Stax. I don't think you play Stax if you are looking for broken in Legacy. You play Stax because you like grinding out wins (or because you hate people in general :wink:). I have 2-4 'non-optimum' slots in my list that I like to play around with and Elspeth has proven interesting. I have found a number of times when he's useful, but that's not to see there aren't still times when I don't wish he was Crucible #5 or #6.

-FB...

Arsenal

10-08-2008, 12:14 AM

I've been looking at Spirit of the Hearth lately. I like it, but perhaps seems a bit of a win-more card (by the time it's cast, you should have your opponent locked up).

The Wes

10-08-2008, 10:24 AM

Arsenal

10-08-2008, 10:32 AM

If we really needed that ability, and for the most part we don't, why not just true believer instead. Its not like we ever target ourself anway. We also have a better faster finisher in Exalted Angel.

Meh, just kicking around different creatures. I have about 2-4 slots that can be anything; Exalted Angel, Oblivion Ring, etc. I was just tinkering around with various creatures (Blinding Angel, Battlegrace Angel, Spirit of the Hearth) and spells to see what I liked.

CodyB

10-08-2008, 03:02 PM

battlegrace angle was absolutely rediculous in the few games I have played with her. 4 turn clock, life link. she does have a few down sides, not blocking as a 5-ass no lifelink while blocking, but she holds the air and allows factories to beat for more. only playing her as a 2spot in the deck, but was impressed by the times i did cast her.

The Wes

10-08-2008, 03:09 PM

Yeah, so far from my limited testing, Battlegrace has been the best new card. Still not sure if its good enough for a permanent slot, but as a 2 of its looking promising.

Captain Hammer

10-08-2008, 06:59 PM

Yep, I've fallen in love with Battlegrace as well. I think it should be a staple in the deck as a 2 of.

The poster above said, it doesn't do anything versus a 5/6 Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker etc.

That's not true. It forces your opponent to trade with the Tombstalker. And it lets Goyf hit you from the ground each turn, and simply gains you back all that life, and also hits for 5 from the air.

In both cases, it's a better card than Exalted Angel.

Nihil Credo

10-08-2008, 07:14 PM

That's not true. It forces your opponent to trade with the Tombstalker. And it lets Goyf hit you from the ground each turn, and simply gains you back all that life, and also hits for 5 from the air.

In both cases, it's a better card than Exalted Angel.

Won't Battlegrace Angel often be a turn slower that Exalted Angel, thus negating its advantage in races?

Captain Hammer

10-08-2008, 07:26 PM

You wouldn't be attacking if your opponent has a Tombstalker in the first place with a Exalted Angel.

Plus, Battlegrace is a 10 point life swing. Exalted is an 8 point life swing.

And lastly, if you wanted Exalted out a turn earlier than Battlegrace, you just spent both your third and fourth turn paying for it. That's one less spell you were able to play, which is pretty significant.

Tosh

10-08-2008, 07:34 PM

And lastly, if you wanted Exalted out a turn earlier than Battlegrace, you just spent both your third and fourth turn paying for it. That's one less spell you were able to play, which is pretty significant.
But that also means that if you want to play your threat before using a land sweeper, that you would have to wait a full turn before doing so (turn 5 Armageddon w/ angel, turn 6 with Battlegrace).

Illissius

10-09-2008, 03:08 AM

Also, you can't block with Battlegrace the turn you play it and gain life.

DeathScythe

10-09-2008, 04:23 AM

ok so for a clear stement about the props and slops of battlegrace VS exalted

Props
Giving +1/+! and lifelink to your sole attackers (suicide mishra FTW!!!!)
5/5 when attacking herself (thus killing tombstalker)
gaining 5 life and taking 5 life in a single swing
when double on field double lifelink and +2/+2

slops

Slower than exalted
no morphing tricks
no lifelink when in defensive position

Personally I think the discussion whether or not to play the battlegrace is personal playstyle. You either like her or not, unless someone can come up with very good material that will blow either one of these angels away.

Skeggi

10-09-2008, 10:28 AM

I'm currently testing a new version of ADHD Stax - one without angels (the one or the other) - it goes very smooth so far, but I've found a new Nemesis: Gaddock Teeg. He really ruins my deck. Oblivion Rings handle him, but it's not enough, I need more. Any suggestions? I'm considering: Afterlife Eightfold Maze (they often attack with Teeg) Just Fate (same thing, really) Terashi's Verdict
In this list I only like Afterlife...and that doesn't seem to be the best option either...any other suggestions are very welcome :) Or does this just prove I should run more creatures - a certain number of the two angels for example - and beat face instead of trying to get rid of nasty Teeg. My deck is pretty solid as it is now. So far I really only have a problem with that little twirp.

Arsenal

10-09-2008, 10:43 AM

Verdict doesn't seem too bad. Wing Shards cc is prohibitive, but can be uber effective if played against a spell happy opponent.

Fred Bear

10-09-2008, 10:50 AM

If you haven't tried it already, Powder Keg is a resonable sub-in when Teeg hits your meta.

-FB...

Skeggi

10-09-2008, 10:55 AM

If you haven't tried it already, Powder Keg is a resonable sub-in when Teeg hits your meta.

-FB...

Of course! I was using Engineered Explosives as an extra hoser, but it gets stopped by Teeg! Powder Keg is fantastic! I'm sure of it. Thanks FB, saved my life :wink:

Arsenal

10-09-2008, 05:05 PM

This is what I'm rolling with:

6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland

4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Battlegrace Angel

Sideboard:
Constant Flux; Oblivion Ring, Suppression Field, Rule of Law, Seal of Cleansing, Powder Keg, etc are in there at one time or another.

I've been pretty happy running this list, but feel that the Battlegrace slot isn't optimized (and I could actually get away with 24 land, upping my business spell liquid slot to 4-of). Thoughts?

rockout

10-09-2008, 06:14 PM

@Arsenal: I heard Exalted Angel fits nicely into that slot.

Arsenal

10-09-2008, 08:56 PM

@Arsenal: I heard Exalted Angel fits nicely into that slot.

I'm rocking the new Battlegrace Angel in place of Exalted. Each has their pros/cons, but I really prefer Battlegrace if I'm going to be running any angel.

Captain Hammer

10-09-2008, 10:17 PM

Arsenal, why did you opt to cut Wasteland rather than Mishra's Factory. Are nonbasics not that prevalent in your meta. The utility of Wasteland combined with the brokeness when combined with Crucible to me makes 4 Wasteland a no brainer.

My list is fairly similar to yours...

6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory

4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison

4 Armageddon
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Battlegrace Angel
3 Smokestack
2 Oblivion Ring

I've been perfectly happy with the Angel. The slot that I'm concerned with is the 2 Oblivion Ring. It's awesome having an all purpose answer to most anything. But I wondering if I would be better off playing something more synergic with the deck. Perhaps 2 Windborn Muse or a Cataclysm and that last Smokestack or something?

What're your thought on my build?

Arsenal

10-09-2008, 11:54 PM

I vary from 24-26 lands, depending on what I want to run that day. When I run 26 land, just +1 Wasteland -1 Battlegrace Angel.

Skeggi

10-10-2008, 01:53 AM

I've been perfectly happy with the Angel. The slot that I'm concerned with is the 2 Oblivion Ring. It's awesome having an all purpose answer to most anything. But I wondering if I would be better off playing something more synergic with the deck. Perhaps 2 Windborn Muse or a Cataclysm and that last Smokestack or something?

Both your lists look pretty solid. The questions you ask here simply depend on your meta. From my experience, in a low combo, medium control, high aggro meta (my meta) I am now forced to run Oblivion Ring mainboard (it often goes to Dark Confidant, very important in the early game). I also notice you guys are running only 4 Armageddons. If you can't get your hands on Ravages of War, Cataclysm is recommended. Windborn Muse is currently in my sideboard, but likely to drop. I used to be a fan, but the only thing I like her against, is Trygon Predator. But there are more ways to deal with Trygon Predator besides Muse. Muse often gets killed, and when she doesn't, 90% of the time your opponent is already locked in, and she's just a beatstick. I myself like Smokestack as a 3-of in my deck. A fourth Smokestack wouldn't be bad, but there is just too much other stuff I want to fit in that slot, that has prio over Smokestack. So in my case, no fourth Smokestack. If you happen to find yourself in a meta where Smokestack isn't really a problem (Aggro Loam, Goblins, The Rock etc.; decks that draw alot of cards and poop out permanents like diarrea) you really don't want the fourth one. Instead get Cataclysm for that slot imo.

Captain Hammer

10-10-2008, 08:11 AM

Glad you like the list.

To the people running 25 or more land, why?

Unless one of the lands is Tabernacle of Pendral Vale (it doesn't generate mana), I see little reason to go above 24 lands.

We devote enough slots to mana as it is.

An important debate we need to have is...

Wasteland vs. Mishra's Factory.

Which card would you cut below playing a full playset first. Since there's simply no room to play playsets of both.

Fred Bear

10-10-2008, 09:07 AM

I play 25 land (no Tabernacles) and I do it because I will play 5-6 Armageddon's depending on the expected meta. I find the ability (or at least a favorable probability) to recover after an 'unprotected' 'Geddon (no Crucible) to be very important in several key matchups.

I don't play full playsets of either Wasteland or Factory. With Wasteland, I found that without Crucible recursion, Wasteland is simply a tempo tool until you hit the much more efficient Armageddon. With Crucible recursion, you really only need one. My preference is to play 3, but I tested 2 and while it's not quite as consistant as I would like it's not horrible. If I don't expect a ton of non-basics (sometimes it happens locally), I'll drop down to 2. Factory is pretty much the same situation. With a Crucible, you only need 1 (2 or more is nice to finish with, but not necessary by any means) and without a Crucible, it's merely a chump blocker or colorless mana. I again prefer 3, but will drop to 2 if I choose to play Angels because of meta-considerations.

This deck is very adaptable to both playstyle and a given meta. I would disagree with Skeggi, though, in that Cataclysm is not a reasonable substitute for Ravages of War. Cataclysm has nowhere near the same effect on the board and it will require you to rework your entire gameplan (and probably your deck) accordingly. I'm not at all saying that you are 'required' to buy Ravages to play this deck, but do not expect Cataclysm to be even remotely close. The bottomline is, what you choose to add depends entirely on your meta. What decks are you trying to beat?

-FB...

Arsenal

10-10-2008, 09:23 AM

I go from 24-26 lands depending on what I have as my business spells. Also, 24 lands is really bleeding edge minimum if you're running 4x Mox Diamond. 25+ lands ensure that I will almost always have a land drop in at every step of the game, a permanent to sac to Smokestack, or to reload after an Armageddon (if my Crucible gets Gripped in response or something stupid like that).

Re: not running full sets of Wasteland, I agree with Fred Bear. However, with Battlegrace Angel, I've found running 4x Factory's a nice thing; I don't always swing with my Angel, but I want max damage out of my attack phase. Multiple Factory's do this for me.

Skeggi

10-10-2008, 09:48 AM

I would disagree with Skeggi, though, in that Cataclysm is not a reasonable substitute for Ravages of War.

The people who have run Cataclysm in their deck, in the Ravages spot, have been very optimistic about it. In fact, some were considering cutting an Armageddon for an extra Cataclysm. I'm not saying it is a substitute in a real sense; ofcourse it does something different. But the different might not be that bad. I personally also favour Ravages. I also have a very nice near mint English copy of it, so yes, ofcourse I play it. But the people who don't have this luxury may want to try Cataclysm. Armageddon and Ravages are big bombs in this deck. Running less than 5 bombs is almost a crime. But unfortunately you're limited. Cataclysm can be another bomb. A different kind of bomb, but a bomb nonetheless.

I'm running 24 mana producing land myself, and have been wanting to expand to 25. I just don't think I have anything to cut for it. My deck is as tight as it is.

Captain Hammer

10-10-2008, 04:28 PM

I've tried Cataclysm for a little while. It can be quite good if you're playing 3 Angels. But it's functionally very different from Armageddon IMO. You usually lose several artifacts to Cataclysm (which sucks), but your opponent often loses multiple threats, and almost all their lands making it much harder for them to recover, or deal with the 5/5 angel they are facing down. It's basically an Armaggedon + Wrath of God, which is a pretty devastating combo and perhaps the best one card reset switch this deck could ever ask for (unless the DCI decides to unban Balance that is).

I subbed out the Oblivion Rings from my list (the last post on the prev page), to make room 2 Cataclysm. I'll try this out some more and get back to you.

I guess a 3/3 split between Factory and Wasteland sounds solid, I'll try it out.

I run Battlegrace Angel, so I see no point in playing 4 Factories. Battlegrace encourages me to attack with only one threat at a time. So playing too many threats doesn't really help.

Arsenal

10-10-2008, 04:39 PM

Meh, I've always run 4 Factories in my various builds. Just a personal preference.

dragzz

10-11-2008, 06:05 AM

Meh, I've always run 4 Factories in my various builds. Just a personal preference.

The deck staples ie. Land Count/Angels/Trini/Smokestack/Metagame Slots always comes down to preference and playstyle. It as been discussed before (I'm to lazy to look up the page), and it would always be open for discussion, unless someone would come up with an uncontested list, which is highly doubtful.

Anyway, I've played with Cataclysm and I would say I like it. It gives you ways out of situations that Armageddon can't handle on its own (ie. A board without a Magus or a ghostly vs a horde of critters). But in order to use it effectively you need to be very well prepared for it, and you also need to have a deeper knowledge of both your deck and your opponent's deck, or you'll end up even more screwed that you already are. At worst it's a dead card, but that's only in certain situations where in you already have a favorable board position, and you're only waiting to drop a Geddon to win.

ykpon

10-11-2008, 08:34 AM

Skeggi

10-11-2008, 10:06 AM

1. I've kicked Karmic Justice out of my sideboard. I only sided it in against Deed, and even there it didn't prove useful enough.
2. Oblivion Ring is spot removal. Can be used on anything that is hampering: Deed, Tombstalker, Goyf, Dark Confidant, Trygon Predator. If you're not running them mainboard you should run them in your sideboard at least.
3. I run 4 Tabernacle effects mainboard, 4 Maguses. I got the land in my sideboard; but this is because I'm running no more angels. If you are running angels, I guess the land would be better since you don't need the body as much.
4. If you expect burns, sit back and let the chalices and trinispheres do there work, and smile as you lock them out of the game. No real sideboard required as they have no chance against you anyway.

Good luck :)

Fred Bear

10-11-2008, 11:20 AM

hey
i didnt play stax a lot and now im building it for a large tourney. so i have some questions:
1. karmic justice - is it really good? i mean pithing needle prevents us from deed do but also stops a lot of other cards while justice doesnt. bad sinergy with chalice at 1, but imo we dont really need chalice at 1 turn 1 against decks playing deed, do we?
2. oblivion ring. what exactly is it for? i understand its a good card with goog cc, but cant find enough place. do we need it? sometmes i see it in sb, what decks is it there against?
3. tabernacles. how more of them do u run? now im testing 3 magus + 1 land, what do u think?
4. if i expect burns, is sphere of law the best sb option agains it? do i really need sthg in sb against it or mu is already good with all my chalices, trinis and geddons?
thx.

I'll throw out an opinion too...
1) Karmic Justice requires a certain playstyle. I don't play that way. I put Needles in my sideboard and never looked back.
2) O-Ring hits any singular threat. If you expect to need to remove Tarmogoyf's or anything with CC>3, they are much more useful than EE or even Powder Keg. I second Skeggi's comment that if you don't maindeck them, they should be in the side.
3) I play 3 Magus and haven't needed more. I would add the 4th if I expect a lot of aggro. If there's so much aggro that I'd want to start adding the lands, I'd want to know more about what kind of aggro.
4) If you expect a ton of burn, put 2-3 Sphere of Law in the sideboard. Laugh maniacally when you play it. Otherwise, as Skeggi points out, every card except Prison pretty much plays against Burn.

-FB...

ykpon

10-13-2008, 06:16 AM

Skeggi, Fred Bear, thx for ur opinion

heres my actual list:

4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
6 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Exalted Angel
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison

SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Suppression Field
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring

my meta is: a lot of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh/fish/dreadstill decks, 2-3 belchers, 1-2 dragon stompys, 1 spring tide, 2-3 agroloam, 1-2 ichorid, at least one landstill, about 2-3 burns, 1 bg control, 1-2 goblins and some random decks

what do u think about this build depending on described meta?

thx

klaus

10-13-2008, 06:59 AM

my meta is: a lot of ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh/fish/dreadstill decks, 2-3 belchers, 1-2 dragon stompys, 1 spring tide, 2-3 agroloam, 1-2 ichorid, at least one landstill, about 2-3 burns, 1 bg control, 1-2 goblins and some random decks

what do u think about this build depending on described meta?
thx

I don't quite get those 4 Sphere of Resistance.
You have enough in the way of combo MD and that's the only MU I see Spheres can really shine.
Against Gobs and Burn.dec I'd suggest 2 SB Sphere of Law (Also helps against D.Stompy, Belcher {Tokens} and Loam..a lil).
Your Thresh MU is positive already so no need to consider SB cards here.

Due to Dreadstill, D. Stompy and Aggro Loam I'd strongly suggest running 2 O. Rings main and -1 Smokestack (it's not overly superb in your meta anyway) and -1 Land (25 mana lands is 1 too many).

Your Ichorid MU is positive as well (Tabernacle effects, Prison) which is why I'd go down to 3 Crypts in the board (you really only need them against Loam).
With the free SB space you could add 3 Defense Grids (I love these guys), they'll help against Hightide, LS, Thresh/Fish and so on.

Hope that helps.

Klaus

Fred Bear

10-13-2008, 10:38 AM

Actually, klaus, I would disagree with your assessment of the Spheres for this meta. In the meta ykpon describes, Sphere of Resistance is probably very strong. Many of the decks that are outlined in this meta run very mana efficient or mana light. Sphere comes down fast enough that the disruption from it will often be enough to win several games due to 'virtual' mana screw over the course of a tournament.

I would second klaus on the inclusion of Sphere of Law. As I said in a previous post, it is very good against burn. In a meta with Dragon Stompy, Belcher (probably with Warrens), Burn, and Goblins, Sphere of Law would probably be very worthwhile.

Another card you may want to think about is Guardian of the Guildpact. It's not a 'wow' card by any means, but it will survive all day long in your meta.

Without making changes to the mainboard, I would suggest a sideboard of...

3 Pithing Needle (Deed, Belcher, etc.)
2 Sphere of Law (Any red win condition)
2-3 Defense Grid (Landstill)
3-2 Sphere of Resistance (Any low mana)
3 Oblivion Ring (You will probably board these in against everything)
2 Guardian of the Guildpact (Anywhere you need another blocker/win except BG)

Just a couple of thoughts,

-FB...

ykpon

10-13-2008, 04:52 PM

3 Pithing Needle (Deed, Belcher, etc.)
2 Sphere of Law (Any red win condition)
2-3 Defense Grid (Landstill)
3-2 Sphere of Resistance (Any low mana)
3 Oblivion Ring (You will probably board these in against everything)
2 Guardian of the Guildpact (Anywhere you need another blocker/win except BG)

needles instead of suppression fields in ur sb. are they really better? i mean needle is better against a single deed in play and doesnt hurt our manlands, but decks running deeds also run a lot of other cards like fetchlands, tops, survivals, strongholds, sakuras, manlands etc. anyway a small quetion: should i board such cards in against goblins or i dont care about vial that much?

sphere of law. ok, thats what i had before u told me to remove it from sb and to play oblivion rings)

defense grid. it seems nice sb for landstill matchup instead of tabernacles but ls isnt that popular here. should i board them in against threshlike decks? they run about 10 counterspells and a lot of other instants but what exactly should i remove for grids after g1? and should i remove anything really?

sphere of resistance. obvious replacement for prisons or tabernacles vs any combo. like defense grid it also seems good against thresh but i dont know what to sb out again.

oblivion ring. as u have said it is a card i will board in against everything. i cant understand it. if i need it vs all decks but some combo ones then maybe to run it md? but i still cant find enough place: im satisfied with my manabase and dont want to cut it so the only thing i can remove is one of smokestacks. also playing rings now im depending only on ur words and deckcheck builds. personally i think i need rings only in loam matchup against assaults and megafat vores/crushers because there arent many predators and tombstalkers here. but ok ill try it)

guardian of guildpact. ill test this if i can find it. seems ok, mb unneeded though.

no grave hate. right, ichorid mu doesnt seem very difficult. but how is loam matchup now? i think our plan is to resolve fast chalice for 2 and then lock them with smokestack or something else. but if they play black (and here in snow-covered russia they usually do) then it looks like they can easily disrupt u and then kill u with one of their 17/17s before u have time to say "wtf", cant they?

i would be very much obliged to you (ok, i copypasted this from a dictionary) if u tell me ur sb strategy and general gameplan against thresh and especially agroloam.

thx)

Fred Bear

10-13-2008, 06:58 PM

I prefer Needle to Suppression Field, but I don't typically see enough decks that Field makes sense for me. Field definitely has a place in fetch-dominated metas.

Grid is good versus control, but it fills the same role as Sphere in your meta. I think Sphere is a stronger card for you, but Grid is better versus the tougher match-ups (like Landstill).

I would personally replace the Angels with the O-Rings, but that is definitely my personal preference. I would also think you could also go down to 3 Smokestacks in the meta you've described without too much difference.

I like Guardian, but I play a lot less 'win conditions' maindeck (I only play 3 Magus and 3 Factories).

If you resolve a Chalice for 2 and an Armageddon versus Loam, they will scoop unless they are wasting time (or have a very unconventional list).

As far as sideboard strategy goes, it is my belief that you have to identify what you are comfortable playing without in certain match-ups. As an example, I will sometimes board out Smokestack (3) and Trinisphere (2) against Threshold and replace them with Sphere of Resistance (3) and Guardian of the Guildpact (2). I know a lot of people who would not subscribe to this method, but it has worked very well for me since I am very comfortable playing without Smokestack and depending on the opponent's knowledge of the match-up, Sphere can be back-breaking for Threshold. Once you know what you are comfortable doing with the deck, you will see pretty quickly how to board in and out.

-FB...

_erbs_

10-16-2008, 03:08 AM

Hello,
Tezzeret + Armageddon,
i didn't know where to post but here goes

MANA
4 seat of synod
3 flagstones of trokair
4 tundra
3 wasteland
3 ancient tomb
2 city of traitors
4 island
23

4 talisman of progress
4 mox diamond
8

SPELLS
3 pendrell mists
2 propaganda
4 armageddon
9

4 trinishpere
3 chalice of the void
3 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
13

BEATS
3 magus of tabernacle
4 tezzeret the seeker
7

some additional notes:
- the propaganda slots could be changed to sphere of resistance
- make 4 pendrell mists, remove magus of tabernacle, add 4 sphere of resistance

comments?

SB cards are still on the works

Skeggi

10-16-2008, 03:34 AM

comments ?

Hi. I don't really know where to start...first off: you have no chance if your opponent plays any kind of nonbasic hate: recurring wasteland, back to basics, blood moon, price of progress, ruination, the whole lot will simply mean your opponent wins. So I guess I'm trying to say: your manabase looks vulnerable :wink:

Second; I don't think there's a good reason to run Pendrell Mists and Magus of the Tabernacle. The Magus is clearly the better of the two, but running 7 Tabernacle effects is simply ridiculous. Since I feel this list really wants to play Tezzeret, I would put in two Engineered Explosives and perhaps a Tormod's Crypt or Pithing Needle.

Third: you can take Mindlock Orb out of your list. Mindlock Orb + Flagstones / Tezzeret != combo.

Fourth: best to replace those Tangle Wires with taxing effects like Ghostly Prison, or what you have, Propaganda. Ofcourse these have absolutely no synergy with Tezzeret. They don't protect him, they can't be tutored by him, and they don't turn into 5/5's. But you will need them or you will die against most aggro match-ups.

Fifth: 4(four!!) Tezzeret seems much for a 'legendary'. I know it's a must-draw, but 3 is probably the best number.

Sixth: any Stax deck running Tezzeret seems to scream for Academy Ruins. Where's yours?

Seventh: Crucible of Worlds. You run Armageddon Stax without it? Good luck...

Eighth: Jester's Cap? That's a clear no. No no no. Not even in your sideboard, no. Did I mention 'no'?

Ninth: Wrath of God seems like a good hoser; but the power of Armageddon Stax lies in making things expensive and mana denial. Armageddon + Tabernacle effect clears pretty effectively; and what's more: more permanently. Also, with this manabase, you'll also find the :w::w: hard to get.

All in all I must conclude, as I've concluded before, that Tezzeret seems powerful, but not in an Armageddon Stax shell. Probably not in any Stax shell. Try Affinity perhaps. I hope this helps. Good luck :smile:

The Wes

10-16-2008, 10:20 AM

Ok, so i'm planning on playing stax this saturday, I have access to most cards, including two tabernacle lands, except for aura's of silence and some of the cards from the new set. Any suggestions overall? I've been out of the reading and testing for the last couple of weeks so are there any new techs that seems to be working for you in testing? I'm also trying to figure out what the meta will be like overall. I'm expecting decent amounts of thresh, survival, and landstill. My deck as of right now is as follows, but I'm up for some last min. suggestions, changes, or some quick playtestings:

4 Ancient tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Flagstones
4 Wastelands
2 Mishra's Factories
1 Horizon Canopy
1 kor Haven
2 Tabernacle
6 Plains
(yes, i know its 26, but its been working well with the 2 tabernacles, i have no problem going down to 25 and then 1 tabernacle sb)

3 Exalted Angel
2 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Windborn (windborn keeps going in and out, all depends on the meta, will most likely come out)

3 Smokestacks
4 Crucible of the Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon (don't have any ravages...)
(that leaves 3 spots unless I'm forgetting something completely, which I very well could be since I'm sitting at work) I had Cataclysm as a 2 of, but I seemed to sb it out in most matches.

I usually use Karmic Justice, Pithing Needle, S. Field and O. Rings almost always in the sb/mb. I'm just looking for a build that consistent, and decent for a deverse meta, and don't have all the time I'd like to test before Saturday. Thanks!

Fred Bear

10-16-2008, 10:28 AM

Skeggi

10-16-2008, 10:34 AM

Edit: @The_Wes:

As I've said before, it looks like its Oblivion Ring's time to shine with the new Planeswalkers and all. Especially since you're not expecting combo; and all the decks you've named have important O-Ring targets: Tarmogoyf, Survival, Deed. Didn't the Ad Nauseum fever strike in your meta yet? If it didn't, you might even want to cut a Trinisphere for something more useful. If you have a hard time filling your slots (if you decide to take out Windborn Muse after all, and probably you should play it in your sideboard), you might want to mainboard Suppression Field or Pithing Needles in this meta. Also: I myself am done with Karmic Justice. It didn't provide the security I was hoping for.

Edit: @Fred Bear: yeah he edited the list.

Vacrix

10-16-2008, 10:42 AM

i know you guys have probably discussed this already as its pretty obvious this could fit into stax, but just in case i thought i might mention it:

Scourglass 3WW
Artifact
T: Sacrifice Scourglass: Destroy all permanents except for artifacts and lands. Play this ability only during your upkeep.

might be a nice run. lets you keep your chalices/prisons/trinisphere/stax/etc.

also, you run white. enlightened tutor + this? like 8 WOG's at 5 mana, easy to cast too with your tomb/city but WW might be hard.

you can also recur it with academy ruins but whatev you dont run blue.

just an idea, i don't know how good the stax matchup v aggro is right now or if this could make it better. it might not be worth the card space though, as turn 1/2 prison is pretty good.

Skeggi

10-16-2008, 11:00 AM

Scourglass is a weak alternative to other options. Yes, it will kill all creatures. Yes, it will kill all enchantments. Yes, it is a permanent. But... it takes 2 turns and you can only activate it during your upkeep and it costs 5 mana and it blows up our creatures and enchantments. What decks play both creatures and enchantments that we would care about? Survival? 5 mana and two turns is pretty slow against a deck that only needs 1 mana to find an answer and 2-3 to play it. Enchantress? We don't even board specific answers for enchantress since their is (no offense to enchantress players intended) no such thing as an 'enchantress-heavy meta'. Outside of those two decks, who would we play this against? It will kill a Deed against those decks, if they don't activate it before our next upkeep (Needle stops it dead and doesn't kill my Prison or Tabernacle). It will kill a goblin/elf hoard (Magus or Prison plus an Armageddon does a good job of that too, I hear, not to mention Wrath of God is playable when necessary). I think you can mold a build to include this, but you need to rework several areas of the deck.

_erbs_

10-16-2008, 09:26 PM

erbs,

It would be very helpful if you could explain how the deck plays. A direct comparison (since you chose to post in the 'Geddon Stax thread instead of starting a new thread) would be extremely useful. An explanation of how this improves problematic match-ups would also be nice. As for specific comments...

Mana Base - 23 land is light for mox diamond. I understand you play the Talisman, but you will want a land to pitch to mox more than the talisman. It is non-intuitive. Only 5 2-mana lands, again, this is a very non-intuitive choice. If you are trying to hit bigger spells faster, I would expect you to run 7-8 of these. Flagstones of Trokair seems out of place. I understand the synergy in Armageddon Stax, but you play 3 Flagstones and only 4 Plains (Tundras). Doesn't seem right.

Spells - You will want to up Propaganda to 4 or eliminate it entirely. It does nothing to protect Tezzeret, but without it, you make yourself very vulnerable early. Pendrell Mists is a good card, I mean Magus and the Land are both playable in Stax builds. I don't understand why you are tying up slots with both, though.

Artifacts - Only 3 Chalice? Only 3 Crucible? Chalice is one of the reasons to play Stax, I wouldn't drop the count below 4. Your deck appears very reliant on Crucible, why don't you run 4?

Tezzeret - Why 4? He is going to be terrible in multiples isn't he? He is your finisher, right? Is 4 necessary? Why?

I'm going to assume that the list was edited after Skeggi's comments (since I don't see Jester's Cap or Wrath or Orb or Tangle Wire anywhere and I assume Skeggi did), and if it was, I can only assume that this list hasn't been tested. Please, if you are going to post a list in a 40+ page thread, explain your choices - don't make us guess.

-FB...

hello,

mana base
23 lands
- i think its sufficient enough to pitch in for the 4 mox diamonds normally the best scenario for a mox diamond is during your 1-2 turns, or when you have a crusible in play
- having 4 talisman & 4 mox diamond i think would give enough mana, im assuming i'll get atleast 2 mana artifacts during each game with 3 tombs and 2 city casting geddon, pendrell mists and tezzeret would be easy enough
- flagstone seems off i guess, maybe 2 could be good enough. i could also cut them and add 2 island and 1 plain
- 3 tombs and 2 city of traitors, currently im okay with that number having to much tombs is ouchy having too much traitors is not good when you draw them in multiples

spells
- im not fully decided between propaganda, pendrell, and magus combination
i choose to pick pendrell + magus combo bec it would be more devastating when i cast geddon tezzeret isn't affected with pendrell and magus so the only penalty ill have is with magus.
- i could remove propa entirely and place in maybe sphere of resistance or boost the cotv to 4
- actually i could even cut crusible to 2, having the 8 mana artifacts i think i could manage and with pendrell + magus a geddon would almost destory all of my oppenents creatures.
- propaganda is not a strong card vs utility creatures i know oblivion ring is the answer for direct removal but it could only hit 1 while pendrell hits multiple targets.

tezzeret
- i placed in 4 so that i would surely get him, i don't need him to be protected even if he quickly dies i've already gotten something out of him
1. almost a 3 to card, assuming i have artifact lands and 1 mana artifact
2. can get land when needed after a geddon - will almost act as a cow
3. 4 toughes could last atleast 1-2 turns - would have given me an advantage through mana.
4. the win condition - once that pendrell mist + magus have wiped all of my oppents creatures and assuming tezz is still alive i could wait for 2 turns to 1 turn kill him via 4 creatures.
5. even when i get a tezz in my hand early on it would matter if he qucikly dies bec of the reasons above

i haven't tested the deck i just thought of it, the reason i decided to put on the forums is that geddon stax maybe it could help it by speeding up its setup via tezzeret and creating more lock parts and dealing with my oppents utility creatures thats why i have 7 tabernacle effect. thus taking care of aggro decks smokestack would now be a support as for combos i could place in sphere of resistance + tanglewire to slow them down giving me enough time to get lock parts i need and so goes vs control decks

im guessing the deck ive posted will have problems when i don't get a geddon & pendrell effect early on bec they are my only defense vs aggro and needs 1.5-2 turns to effectively wipe my oppenents creatures assuming i have a geddon at hand. i guess ravages of war could be included in the list to up the land destruction effect. thats why i would like to main board sphere of resistance or tanglewire to give me more time to get the cards i need.

i didn't want to creat a new thread cause im not sure enough if the deck i proposed would be worthy enough to be discussed thoroughly. im just giving some ideas i have that maybe could boost geddon stax's performace

You need to take the time to spell properly and use capitalization when you post in these forums.

You will get warnings if you don't.

- Nihil Credo

Noman Peopled

10-17-2008, 12:58 AM

@ _erbs_
I'm not on these forums much so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this approach is different enough from what people are discussing here that it'd warrant its own thread. There may even be a Tezzeret Stax thread somewhere already.
I don't know if you caught this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16498.html).

Just a few quickie pointers maybe:
I rather doubt 23 Mox Diamond is enough - as you have to produce 3UU, 3U, and 3W (and also play a spell that destroys all lands) multiple drawn lands will rarely be useless. More lands would also mean losing a City wouldn't hurt so much. Crucible is still a 4-of, imo; Tezzeret can fill the hole but only if you're at five mana already, which is quite late and prevents you from using its abilities to better effect.
I have played Talismans in only one Legacy deck, where they rather unspectacularly filled a niche. They only accelerate you from two mana to four, though, which is important for Pendrell Mist but not much else. With four in the deck, you'll draw them when you need them only inconsistently. I'd add Chrome Moxen before Talismans, or turn the Talisman count up a notch (Mind Stone seems worth a try) - if they really work well. Before Chrome Mox, I'd try and see if Ancient Tomb really hurts that much in your meta - Chalice, Keg, and Explosives as well as Prisons and Propagandas can limit your opponent's ability to capitalize on the lifeloss.
It's true that Mists and Magus are more devastating after an Armageddon, but not necessarily so without it. Propaganda/Prison is also much faster which is relevant against decks using ETW and Ichorid as well as Goblins. Prop/Prison, second only to Chalice and Trinisphere, are very good reasons to run eight two-mana-lands. I would also look into Ensnaring Bridge depending on playtesting results, as it's fetchable with Tezzeret.
Tezzeret itself has the distinct advantage of not being dead in multiples, but four in a deck with Armageddon and Magus is pushing it, imo. You won't often mind drawing one if you have one in play; adding a second to your hand is another matter entirely. Especially since your mana base is quite vulnerable.

_erbs_

10-17-2008, 01:18 AM

@ _erbs_
I'm not on these forums much so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this approach is different enough from what people are discussing here that it'd warrant its own thread. There may even be a Tezzeret Stax thread somewhere already.
I don't know if you caught this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16498.html).

Just a few quickie pointers maybe:
I rather doubt 23 Mox Diamond is enough - as you have to produce 3UU, 3U, and 3W (and also play a spell that destroys all lands) multiple drawn lands will rarely be useless. More lands would also mean losing a City wouldn't hurt so much. Crucible is still a 4-of, imo; Tezzeret can fill the hole but only if you're at five mana already, which is quite late and prevents you from using its abilities to better effect.
I have played Talismans in only one Legacy deck, where they rather unspectacularly filled a niche. They only accelerate you from two mana to four, though, which is important for Pendrell Mist but not much else. With four in the deck, you'll draw them when you need them only inconsitently. I'd add Chrome Moxen before Talismans, or up the Talisman count up a notch (Mind Stone seems worth ab try) - if they really work well. Before Chrome Mox, I'd try and see if Ancient Tomb really hurts that much in your meta - Chalice, Keg, and Explosives as well as Prisons and Propagandas can limit your opponent's ability to capitalize on the lifeloss.
It's true that Mists and Magus are more devastating after an Armageddon, but not necessarily so without it. Propaganda/Prison is also much faster which is relevant against decks using ETW and Ichorid as well as Goblins. Prop/Prison, second only to Chalice and Trinisphere, are very good reasons to run eight two-mana-lands. I would also look into Ensnaring Bridge depending on playtesting results, as it's fetchable with Tezzeret.
Tezzeret itself has the distinct advantage of not being dead in multiples, but four in a deck with Armageddon and Magus is pushing it, imo. You won't often mind drawing one if you have one in play; adding a second to your hand is another matter entirely. Especially since your mana base is quite vulnerable.

nice read thanks for link

Skeggi

10-17-2008, 02:48 AM

There may even be a Tezzeret Stax thread somewhere already.
How about the doomed-to-fail Tezzeret Stax (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10966) thread where _erbs_ has posted already.

i haven't tested the deck i just thought of it
Please, go test your deck. Before that happens it's all just speculation. Alot of your logic doesn't match with my experience playing Armageddon Stax.

I don't know if you caught this article (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/16498.html).
The article you linked isn't exactly a ground-breaking, speaking 'truth-bombs' sort of article. In fact, it's full of bad speculation. Read this thread: Seeking Stax discussion (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11344).

I rather doubt 23 Mox Diamond is enough
Oh, really? 4 is enough for me :wink: Sorry, I just had to do this :tongue:

tezzeret
- i placed in 4 so that i would surely get him, i don't need him to be protected even if he quickly dies i've already gotten something out of him

You need to ask yourself is the something you've gotten out of him worth the :3::u::u:, and what's more, worth all the changes in your manabase you had to make to even cast the :u::u:

Tezzeret itself has the distinct advantage of not being dead in multiples
Why not?

The final point I'd like to make, is that I'd like to stress that Tezzeret really doesn't belong in this thread. If Tezzeret would make it into an Armageddon Stax build, the play would be so different that it requires a new thread; the difference between "Tezzeret Armageddon Stax" and Armageddon Stax is greater than the differenc between Armageddon Stax and Angel Stax.

Mordel

10-17-2008, 03:34 AM

Skeggi speaks the brutal, brutal truth.

@ Wes
I think you forgot to add some mox diamonds to that deck, dude. From what I know from playing 'geddon stax, you would probably be pretty happy with several o-rings and one less angel and more magus in exchange for the windborns. You know your meta better than me though. When I have played this deck, I don't really need the angels when I am ready to win most of the time. I do admit that I have one a game off of my opponent being unlucky and me going chalice--->trini---->angel, but in that situation I could have probably won by turning a factory and a magus sideways for some realy dorky beats.

I'll man up and admit it: I don't have the balls that Fred does to rock factories and magi as my only win cons: I need to have the comfort of knowing I have two strong winged chicks in my deck to smash face with if something goes wrong.

For the three decks you expect a lot of, I am not entirely sure if you want to keep those muses in, but you mention that. I have played around with karmic justice and have been not terribly impressed with it a few times. I think someone mentions this in the thread with a lot more detail, but basically my stuff was still being blown up and they were obviously in a position that they felt they could win the game in if they actually went as far as to sacrifice a few non-lands and several lands to get rid of my artifacts(and they did because I had to pull shit off the top of my deck). Anyway, I never really thought about it in much more detail than that, after it happened a few times I decided that maybe I just suck at playing the deck too much to be able to use them properly or they just didn't "fit" for me, so I replaced them. I am pretty sure that it is Fred that goes into pretty good detail as to why he doesn't really like them anymore a few pages back.

To make the deck good for a diverse meta, I think that you ought to up magi effects, throw in a few o-rings(two if I am looking at the deck right) and go for a more boring/traditional mana base that just turns sideways for mana and does no damage to you other than it coming from tombs. While Tabs are really spiffy, if you are expecting a diverse meta, that usually means plenty of wastelands and while it can be argued that wastelands will be getting tossed at cities and tombs before Tabs, but either way, your call. I also don't like the fact there are two legendary lands that don't tap for mana being used. I notice you have numerous lands, but still...be prepared for the worst!

The Wes

10-17-2008, 08:08 AM

DIAMONDS! I knew I missed something, no wonder I had extra space I didnt' knwo what to do with, either way muses out for now, diamonds in, and one tabernacle in the sb.

Guy I Don't Know

10-18-2008, 04:54 PM

why has no one played moat in this kind of deck? is it not good enough?

DeathScythe

10-18-2008, 05:26 PM

why has no one played moat in this kind of deck? is it not good enough?

I play moat but as far as I'm aware other people don't like it, or don't feel like buying them

Guy I Don't Know

10-18-2008, 11:21 PM

I think moat is a undervalued card at the moment and with playable planes walkers even more undervalued.

Ive been playing 4 Moat and 3 Elspeth in this kind of deck and I like it, greater threat density versus counter decks while still maintaining matchup against aggro

DeathScythe

10-19-2008, 05:25 AM

4 moats is a bit over the top imo, assuming you also run a full set of ghostly prisons next to them

I'm in an aggro meta myself and I don't think I need more than 2 moats next to my 4 prisons, either one of these 6 will slow your opponent down big time and aggro usually doens't have an awnser to them, preboard that is.
Also the fact that moat isn't a cummulative effect (such as prison) an you don't really need one for your gameplan I don't see the need for 4 of them. Also that getting the double white available is sometimes a bit of a problem...

and define counterdecks? MUC doenst care about a moat as they fly over it, landstill can perniciously destroy it. So which 'counterdecks' are moats very good in?

Skeggi

10-19-2008, 05:35 AM

why has no one played moat in this kind of deck? is it not good enough?
There are lots of people who run Moat, or have run Moat. Moat isn't bad. It gets better with Humility. I don't run Moat because I don't need it; in fact, I don't run Angels, so Moat gets in my way.

DeathScythe

10-19-2008, 05:45 AM

There are lots of people who run Moat, or have run Moat. Moat isn't bad. It gets better with Humility. I don't run Moat because I don't need it; in fact, I don't run Angels, so Moat gets in my way.

I don't run angels either (at least not MB) and I'm not really having any trouble with that
What do you run as kills joost?

Skeggi

10-19-2008, 08:28 AM

2 Factories, 4 Magus, and the fact that most opponents concede at a hardlock, I'm probably going to 3 factories, but I haven't found a third Judge Gift one yet...

Edit: Big congrats to Jay Palmer who made the top8 at theSouce tournament!

Jay Palmer: Stax

9 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Wasteland
3 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Armageddon

SB:
4 Suppression Field
3 Karmic Justice
3 Defense Grid
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Tabernacle at the Pendrel Vale
1 Gaea's Blessing

Edit: Jay Palmer is Afro (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/member.php?u=77) on theSource

Guy I Don't Know

10-19-2008, 09:41 AM

like palmer's decklist, the only thing is that after a long game one if you lose it seems hard to come back in a timely fashion

DeathScythe

10-19-2008, 09:59 AM

like palmer's decklist, the only thing is that after a long game one if you lose it seems hard to come back in a timely fashion

doesn't that count for stax overall?!

Skeggi

10-19-2008, 01:24 PM

like palmer's decklist, the only thing is that after a long game one if you lose it seems hard to come back in a timely fashion

Consistent (slower) Stax > Less consistent (faster) Stax.

Also note that Palmer runs 26 land, with 9 basics.

Guy I Don't Know

10-19-2008, 01:26 PM

other stax you can try to mulligan into angel if you are short on time, and go turn one angel turn two flip angel stompy style... What I am trying to say is that I would board in threats if there isnt much time left in the round, and cut a card like suppression field from the side to do so.

Skeggi

10-19-2008, 01:30 PM

Wow. I would NEVER mul into Angel (not just because I'm not running Angels, but when I was, I wouldn't have done it either). Angel-stompy style is fun, but Stax can never really pull it off. So we drop a first turn Angel? It doesn't have any protection from chalice@1 or Trinispheres, so it's very likely your opponent has something against it. And then what - you have carddisadvantage already, this will likely end in a loss. Best to play it steady and go for the draw then.

Mastikor

10-19-2008, 03:36 PM

What do you think of running maindeck Windborn Muse (if not running angel)? Then you could also drop some prisons and gain some free slots.

DeathScythe

10-19-2008, 03:49 PM

mulling into an angel is pretty much THE most stupidest thing to do even if your low on time.
What you CAN do is pray god you get a angel stompy hand with the first 7 (AKA 3sphere/Chalice 1 depending on opponent T1, T2 morph angel, unmorph T3 and geddon T4) if you got a solid opening 7 game 2 and lock your opponent out you just make sure he plays it fast even if that means calling a judge for slow play (and yes people do tend to slow play when 1-0 ahead with 5 minutes left).

What do you think of running maindeck Windborn Muse (if not running angel)? Then you could also drop some prisons and gain some free slots

maindeck windbornes works for some people, but dropping prisons for them sounds a bit stupidish as prison don't tend to die as easy as the muses...

ykpon

10-19-2008, 07:05 PM

today i'd played in a 37 men tourney and made top4. my list was:

_______

main (i was satisfied with it. the only thing i changed if i could was adding ravages):

4 tomb
4 city
4 flagstones
4 wasteland
3 mishra
6 plains
1 tabernacle
4 mox
3 angel
3 magus
4 stax
4 trini
4 chalice
4 geddon (didnt find any ravages)
4 prison
4 crucible
_______

side (crap. 4 fields + 11 cards i could easily play without):

4 field (the only sb card i needed really)
3 defense grid (not needed imo)
1 guardian of guildpact (seemed ok against goblins and some other decks, but not needed really. only mb to demoralize an opponent)
4 ring (sometimes sided them in when had some dead cards to side out but never wished i had them in main)
3 sphere of resistanse (not needed imo)
________

quick report:

1. muc. we locked each other and couldnt really do anything. he drew more cards so decked himself. we had about 5 minutes for g2 so decided even not to start it. the most boring match ever. 1-0. 1-0-0.

2. bw pox. both times fast chalises/spheres gave me enough time to kill his lands before he could start killing my ones. the only threats were his tombstalkers but ok he hadnt lands and i had prisons. 2-0. 2-0-0.

3. rb goblins. prison with ld effects worked quite well. after sb suppression fields just owned them not letting to destroy my angel with full hand of incinerators. that time i thought any goblins were bye for me. unfortunately it was a mistake. 2-0. 3-0-0.

4. dredge. like against goblins. ghostly prison - oops i won. 2-0. 4-0-0.

so im already in top8 and wanna already eat something, but my next opponent doesnt want to id so i play 5th round too.

5. ugw fish. matchup wasnt so easy as previous ones but anyway all 3 games i left him without lands and creatures after tabernacle+geddon. g2 for a long time i couldnt get 4th mana for a 2nd geddon and he killed me with 5 attacks of his serra avenger through tabernacle and a prison. g1 and g3 i killed him with my mishras. 2-1. 5-0-0.

6. dredge. id to have some rest before top8. 5-0-1.

top8. rgsa (splashing black and white also). g1 was quite stupid. i kept a hand of angel and lands and it worked. turn 1 morph, turn 2 unmorph, attack, attack, 1-0. g2 i got the same hand but with 1 suppression field also. but field got krosan grip, angel was killed by big game hunter, then survival, rofellos, anger etc. in a couple of turns i was already eaten by a crowd of angry tarmogoyfs and enforcers. g3 i locked him with field+magus+geddon quickly enough. 2-1. 6-0-1.

it was the first qualifier for a big winter legacy tourney with good prizes. i had to win just one more match to get an invite. also if i won and wanted to play final an easy dredge was already waiting for me there.

top4. rb goblins. ok, after swiss i was underrating goblins. unfortunately after i was told who my opponent was i couldnt remove a "i just cant lose" thought from my head. but g1 woke me up quickly. i kept a rather bad hand because it included some lands and prison. the thing was that goblins didnt miss land drops and i didnt draw any ld or tabernacle, only stupid chalices and moxes. g2 was fast. prison, angel, geddon, tabernacle. g3 i was thinking about my hand for a lot of time. it was 2 stax, crusible, mox and 3 lands. i decided to keep it thinking topdecking prison or tabernacle in a few turns can give me a good chance winning me that game. mb it was my worst mistake, mb just unluck, i dunno. but obviously i didnt draw anything i wanted during 5 turns i was alive. 1-2. 6-1-1. so no invite, just some rating, a pile of alara boosters and fnm counterspell. anyway i liked this deck i played for the first time. u should be lucky playing it but with good hands it crashes everything. now im thinking about taking it for a next qualifier too. any sb help is welcome (top8 were: me, ugw threshfish, 2 dredges, 2 rgsa, goblins, life combo).

_erbs_

10-20-2008, 01:26 AM

@ykpon
Congrats!
______________________________________

I don't know if this has been discussed already sorry if yes. Im just wondering why is that sphere of resistance don't belong in the main board. Normally the last 3-4 slots are the one which varries from angel, obilivion ring or muses.

- angels = faster win condition
- oblivion ring = spot removal
- windborn muse = beater, additional ghostly prison effect

Isn't if that 3 or 4 slots became sphere of resistance, it would add more mana taxing effect thus giving the deck more consistency in terms of mana lock down?

Mordel

10-20-2008, 02:03 AM

It can also make things a bit strenuous for you in a match up that just plain doesn't need them. trinishphere, stack, wasteland and geddon are fine in the first game unless you have an extremely saturated metagame in mind.

What matchups did you have in mind exactly?

Skeggi

10-20-2008, 03:24 AM

What do you think of running maindeck Windborn Muse (if not running angel)? Then you could also drop some prisons and gain some free slots.
In my experience maindeck Windborn Muse is only viable in a high-aggro low spot-removal meta. These are very rare :wink: Dropping Prison for Muse is often a big mistake: usually aggro has its enchantment hate in its sideboard. Creaturehate is standard in every aggro deck.

Isn't if that 3 or 4 slots became sphere of resistance, it would add more mana taxing effect thus giving the deck more consistency in terms of mana lock down?
In a meta with a low or otherwise tight mana curve, Sphere of Resistance will be very useful. Think of a high combo, high Thresh meta. However, since Thresh is the bane of combo, these meta's are also very rare; but in either high combo or high Thresh meta, they can be added still. However Trinisphere often proves to be more useful here. Also, having a Trinisphere on the table and a Sphere of Resistance != combo: in most cases, in your high combo/high thresh meta, your Sphere of Resistance has 0 effect if the Trinisphere is already there: for instance: Sphere of Resistance sets the mana cost to 2 instead of 1; Trinisphere sets it to 3: it always ends up at 3 unless the spell has a converted mana cost of three or more, but against these spells we usually use Armageddon.

@ykpon: Nicely done! Can you tell us more about how you sideboarded please?

_erbs_

10-20-2008, 03:49 AM

In a meta with a low or otherwise tight mana curve, Sphere of Resistance will be very useful. Think of a high combo, high Thresh meta. However, since Thresh is the bane of combo, these meta's are also very rare; but in either high combo or high Thresh meta, they can be added still. However Trinisphere often proves to be more useful here. Also, having a Trinisphere on the table and a Sphere of Resistance != combo: in most cases, in your high combo/high thresh meta, your Sphere of Resistance has 0 effect if the Trinisphere is already there: for instance: Sphere of Resistance sets the mana cost to 2 instead of 1; Trinisphere sets it to 3: it always ends up at 3 unless the spell has a converted mana cost of three or more, but against these spells we usually use Armageddon.

Hello,
Im not sure of the ruling but isn't since im the owner of the sphere of resistance and trinishphere i could control how they would stack ?

So when my opponent casts a lightning bolt i'll stack the trinishpere effect then sphere of resistance thus making the lightning bolt's casting cost R + 2 colorless mana + 1 colorless mana ?

And when im the one casting let say a mox diamond, i'll stack sphere of resistance first then trinisphere, making the casting cost 0 + 1 + 2

Are those statements not possible ?

Skeggi

10-20-2008, 03:54 AM

Are those statements not possible ?
Only your Mox Diamond scenario is possible.

Trinisphere's effect always comes last. ALWAYS. So with a Trinisphere in play, Sphere of Resistance does nothing to spells with a converted casting cost < 3. With both in play a Lightning bolt costs :2::r:, no matter how you want to twist or turn it.

Also, just as a FYI, replicate is also part of extra cost. So if Shattering Spree is played by your opponent, and you have a Chalice@1 and a Trinisphere in play, and your opponent replicates Shattering Spree 2 times, the total casting cost of Shattering Spree is :r::r::r:. However, Chalice@1 does counter the first Shattering Spree, because it doesn't check the additional cost, but only the original converted mana cost. However, the other two Shattering Sprees aren't countered by the Chalice@1, and since your opponent payed three mana to cast the spell, Trinisphere isn't going to add any mana to that cost. The two replicated versions of Shattering Spree are placed on the stack and will probably resolve as normal. And probably destroy your Trinisphere and Chalice@1.

Yes, we need to find an answer against Shattering Spree :wink:

ykpon

10-20-2008, 07:18 AM

@ykpon: Nicely done! Can you tell us more about how you sideboarded please?

sure.
nothing against muc because we didnt start g2 but if we did it was something like +4 field +3 grid +3 rings -4 chalice -4 magus -1 tabernacle -1 angel.
against pox +4 fields -4 tabernacle effects (if i understood it was pox g1 i sided some rings for stalker also).
against goblins +4 fields +1 guardian +3 rings -4 chalices -4 smokestacks (next time these +3 rings should become +3 muses or +2 muses +1 tabernacle i think, rings arent needed here).
against ichorid nothing, main deck seems ok.
against vial fish +4 fields -1 mishras -1 magus -1 smokestack -1 angel.
against rgsa +4 fields -4 trinispheres. and also +4 rings -4 smokestacks after g2 when he killed me with some cheap fatties after destroying a prison.

so i sucsessfully boarded fields in against everithing but ichorid and my opponents always hated them with full table of fetches, tops, survivals, ports and vials. shouldnt it be a maindeck card?

also what do u think about such aggresive version of stax? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20304

Skeggi

10-20-2008, 07:23 AM

nothing against muc because we didnt start g2 but if we did it was something like +4 field +3 grid +3 rings -4 chalice -4 magus -1 tabernacle -1 angel
Thanks for your answer :smile: I don't understand why you'd use Suppression Fields against MUC though?

against pox +4 fields -4 tabernacle effects (if i understood it was pox g1 i sided some rings for stalker also).
What are the Suppression Fields in this match-up for?

against ichorid nothing, main deck seems ok.
Why not sideboard in your Sphere of Resistance here?

also what do u think about such aggresive version of stax? http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=20304
This deck looks like alot of fun to play, however he only runs 20 land and is therefor forced to use Chrome Mox. If you have a high aggro meta, your opponent's creatures will no doubt be more powerful than yours, also, you're lacking Tabernacle effects now. Overall I must conclude that, like said before, it's probably fun to play, but isn't good. I also think 4x Aven Mindcensor and 4x Suppression Field is too much; they're both mainly against fetches anyway. It is tweakable though. Elspeth would fit in nicely I guess.

Captain Hammer

10-20-2008, 07:46 AM

I'm tempted to play 2 Windborn Muse in the Oblivion Ring slots just because it's taking too freaking long to kill off my opponents even once I lock them down.

Yes, I play 4 Factories, 4 Magus and 3 Angel, and the deck still feels too slow!

Anyone else have the sme experience?

Is running 9 permanent creatures when 4 of them are Magus a bad idea?

Skeggi

10-20-2008, 07:59 AM

Is running 9 permanent creatures when 4 of them are Magus a bad idea?

Yes. This is Stax, you need to be patient. If you can't handle the locking slow-pace of the Stax game, go play tempothresh or combo :tongue:

ykpon

10-20-2008, 09:10 AM

@Skeggi
against muc fields were for shackles and powder kegs.

against pox they were for fetches, tops and wastelands. i decided fields would be more useful than tabernacles against a deck with about 3-4 creatures only.

hm ure right, spheres seem better than smokestacks in ichorid mu.

Xero

10-24-2008, 03:23 PM

So, the Stax list that top 8'd the Source Tournament ran 0x Angels and 4x Magi. What do you think about this?

Additionally, I was wondering about Ethersworn Canonist in the SB against combo. TES and other Ad Nauseum based combo decks seem to be abandoning Empty the Warrens, which makes Magus a dead draw against combo. Game 2, you could switch out the Magi for the Cannonists.

Arsenal

10-24-2008, 03:34 PM

Angels aren't 100% necessary in all Stax lists. I was running 4x Factory + 4x Magus of the Tabernacle for a while as my only win conditions. It really depends on (a.) meta, (b.) preference.

Guy I Don't Know

10-25-2008, 09:37 AM

[QUOTE]Yes, I play 4 Factories, 4 Magus and 3 Angel, and the deck still feels too slow!

Anyone else have the sme experience?/QUOTE]

I find that magus is hard to win with. I cut two for Elspeth which I like alot, especially control decks with basically only EE and a few crits to get to it.

Depends on your meta, your meta seems like it has a lot of goblins with that build. My meta has basically no goblins and a lot of countertop which plays shackles etc.

Mordel

10-27-2008, 02:45 AM

Angels strike me as more of a luxury/crutch for players that are less confident in their choice deck for a metagame or overall skill-level in playing the deck.
They also seem like one of the better choices for a card to cut if you want to cut if you want to add more rings, land or other answers. Angel is often sort of an after thought or plan b in some lists, imho.

Between all the various lock pieces and factories(i run four personally), I don't really have a problem winning with magus as my only actual creature on the table four damage or so per turn isn't a bad clock and neither is just the magus on its own when you consider the damage people tend to inflict on themselves. Besides, I usually have my opponent completely fucked by the time my magus is ready to swing at them.

With that said, I'll admit it:I am a pussy and I run two angels, so I am not trying to step on anyone's toes. I have won on her muscular back when lock pieces weren't fitting right and I had an opening to try to get four or five swings in and win off those in case I wasn't able to pull what I needed off the top. I don't have the experience with this deck guys like Fred have, so a backup plan is necessary for me if I can afford the two slots, which I can with my current build.

Skeggi

10-27-2008, 04:02 AM

So, the Stax list that top 8'd the Source Tournament ran 0x Angels and 4x Magi. What do you think about this?

There are quite a few Stax players who don't run Angels. It's a matter of preference. I also run 0x Angel and 4x Magus. I think Fred Bear runs 0x Angel and 3x Magus. In general it's easier for us to get the mana-denial lock. After that is accomplished, anything that can deal damage per turn will win us the game.

Afro

10-27-2008, 02:15 PM

So, the Stax list that top 8'd the Source Tournament ran 0x Angels and 4x Magi. What do you think about this?

I am the Stax player who took top8 at the Source Tournament. Angel I believe is a HUGE win more card in this deck. This deck wins by locking out opponents and pinging away with 2 power dorks in the form of Magus and Factory. The only time I would want Exalted Angel is games two or three when I bring in my Suppression Fields as it takes a long time to be able to actively go on the offensive with Mishra's Factories as the mana investment becomes a hassle.

Mordel summed it up nicely - "Angels strike me as more of a luxury/crutch for players that are less confident in their choice deck for a metagame or overall skill-level in playing the deck."

I only played this deck at 2 other local tournaments (3 rounds cut to top 4) before taking it to the Source Tournament. Patience is definitely needed to play this deck correctly. I prefer the no Angel route simply because NEVER do I want to drop it in my first 3-4 turns as I want to be slowing down my opponent and after turn 4 I should have the game just about locked to where I want it so what is the point of having a 4/5 flying beater. I'd rather just wait for either a) My opponent to scoop or b) draw more lock pieces and wait for a Factory or Magus. Also my two losses of the day came from both Dreadstill Lists that were in the Top 8. Dreadnought is VERY bad news for you so I would urge everyone to try to cut some spots for Oblivion Ring in the main if you are not already running it.

I talked to Machinus after my top 8 loss and he gave me a few tips and play errors that he saw which were mostly due to my inexperience with the deck.

ParkerLewis

10-27-2008, 03:27 PM

With that said, I'll admit it:I am a pussy and I run two angels, so I am not trying to step on anyone's toes. I have won on her muscular back when lock pieces weren't fitting right and I had an opening to try to get four or five swings in and win off those in case I wasn't able to pull what I needed off the top. I don't have the experience with this deck guys like Fred have, so a backup plan is necessary for me if I can afford the two slots, which I can with my current build.

I agree on this part. There are times when you've fallen behind, not necessarily because you misplayed, but simply because your opponent had a very strong early & midgame. Angels can turn the whole thing around thanks to the huge life swing.

Additionally, let's not forget the issue of going to time. Nobody's denying that the deck is incredibly slow at winning. 2 Angels in the main help ensure that you won't always go to time if you don't go 2-0.

That's why I'm keeping Angel as a 2-of.

Patrick

10-27-2008, 03:32 PM

I'm wondering if Exalted Angel is still considered a "win more" card when Moat is in the maindeck. I use Moat, because sometimes you can drop a Moat and sit around for 40 turns until you topdeck Exalted Angel and then win. This happens often enough that I play these cards week after week. My current mix is 3 Angels, 2 Mishra's Factories, 3 Magus of the Tabernacle. I cut one Magus because having more Exalted Angels makes me want Magus just a little bit less. I bounced between 2 and 3 Mishra's Factory for a long time. I finally settled on two, though this is only because I have 2 foil ones.

I don't think there is a way to solve the questions of "how many cardname should I use?". Each Stax list looks good, each card you use depends on how many of the other cards you use. In some builds, Exalted Angel isn't needed at all, and those slots are better dedicated to other cards. In other builds it's the win condition 90% of the time.

I suppose this post is a waste of board space though. No new info here. I should have though of that before I typed this out. :smile:

Dino

10-27-2008, 04:48 PM

Here's my new list that my friend used and top 8'ed in at a local Legacy Tournament

Land:
6x Plains
4x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Mishra's Factory
1x Ghost Quarter
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Artifacts:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

White:
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Armageddon
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
3x Exalted Angel
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat

Side:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Aura of Silence
4x Supression Field
3x Jotun Grunt

I really like the 1-of Moat and the Oblivion Rings Main, usually wishing for at least 1 in my hand through most games. Moat can just win games against a lot of decks while you proceed to lock them out or kill them with an angel. Oblivion ring is nice against random things, board sweepers, and big creatures like tombstalker or a big goyf that will kill you through 1 ghostly prison.

I recently brought the Smokestack count to 3 and never missed the 4th. Also, I cut the 4th Flagstones. Too many games I had two in my opening hand unable to get land drops to play spells that turn instead of waiting until the next. The one-of ghost quarter also can serve as the 4th flagstones and with a wasteland + crucible lock some times opponents play enough basics to get through. The Ghost quarter solves this problem by eventually killing all their lands.

I am unsure about the land count (23 currently + tabernacle), in some games while playtesting I would get stuck on 2-3 lands and unable to win. I was thinking of adding another plains or factory and cutting an angel.

If i had any Ravages of War I would proabably play 5 'geddon effects 3:2 split but for now I am only playing 4 Armageddon.

Mordel

10-27-2008, 05:50 PM

I don't think there is a way to solve the questions of "how many cardname should I use?".

I hear that. Lists tend to have seemingly small variations that will make a big difference, but are really impossible to say whether it is actually good or not, aside from sideboards with lots of jank etc.

@Dino: cutting one angel would probably be a plan. You only run one moat anyway and odds point to drawing an angel before a moat. If you are going to add another land, you might as well go with another ghost quarter because I really don't see the ghost quarter being that useful for crucible tricks when you only run one. I don't mind running singleton cards in any deck, but it is generally best if they are either a "fifth copy" or something to that effect. This could be true for ghost quarter to an extent because you can knock off a land and maybe have your opponent get mana screwed, but this is a bit too conditional for a deck that needs guaranteed effect in what it plays. Ghost quarter is in no way a fourth copy of flagstones because it can not give you a land right after a geddon or after a smoke stack sac.

Stax has no manipulation, so a single copy of moat is extremely doable because it has an awesome effect, but ghost quarter is vastly inferior to just drawing a wasteland a lot of the time.

To reiterate: if you want to run ghost quarter, run two or more or run none...that's what I think anyway.

I also like to have four flagstones even if I am drawing two in an opening hand, due to the fact I have twenty-six lands, I will be fine because I can usually hold off on dropping it and later if I want to thin some land or whatever, I drop the second and there I go.

Twenty-three lands seems a bit low to get a lot of use out of diamonds by the way. The list looks like some extra stuff go put in for lands that got taken out to be honest.

Lammina

10-28-2008, 12:01 PM

Hi all!

Here is my test-list:

5x Plains
3x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
4x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Nomad Stadium

Artifacts:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

White:
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Armageddon
3x Magus of the Tabernacle
3x Exalted Angel
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

A question: someone has tested Elspeth? What you think?

Comments please!

Thx for help,

Lammina

The Wes

10-28-2008, 01:31 PM

Lammina

10-28-2008, 05:04 PM

First off, I've never liked Nomad Stadium, I think it would be better as a Kor haven. Last tourney I went in, though I didn't do well, Kor haven did hold its own almost every time I drew it. Darksteel Citadel has also never been that helpful to me, I've replaced it with horizon canopy, but might just be better off as another plains, especially with you running 3 angels.

I'm also planning on try the stax list with no angels, might as well try for more lock. I've only tried Elspeth a few times, but not that amazing so far.

I has tested play a Angelless Stax, but IMO, this version is very much weak. I never shall mull to make a angel rush, but drop a morph angel in first turn against control decks is amazing!

I tried the no angel version, and, because the deficience the deck in draws question, I waited too long for a finisher.... and lost many games, games thats probably I never lost with angel´s help.

But know, my question persist: Elspeth, use or not?

Thx again.

Cyah!

_erbs_

10-28-2008, 10:34 PM

Yes exalted angel is awesome in 1st turn morph vs any decks but after that shes a 6 to cast 4/5 creature. I guess it would boil down to the players preference on what kind of geddon stax he/she is comfortable in playing with. Yes life link is good but if don't plan on casting exalted angel early with no lock parts out there i think battlegrace angel would be a much better choice for me.

I play with no exalted angel on my geddon stax, yes its slow but its okay for me.

Currently im running 2 elspeth 4 magus and 4 factories as my win condition. Elspeth is a good card but not awesome, if only tezzeret and her had shared there abilities haha.

I don't know for others out there but most of the time in my deck elspeth is more of a utility card, sacrificing tokens, giving +3/+3 to magus or factory, it really depends on the situation. i never even once had the chance to use her last ability but what i like in her is that she draws the attention of your opponent giving you a little breathing room.

I still don't know what to use on the 2 slots on a upcoming legacy tornament at out place. The cards im contemplating with are:

Elspeth - currently using (feels like a utility card than a finisher)
Battlegrace Angel - 4/4 or 5/5 critter with life link and costs 3WW
Wndborn muse - more ghostly prison effect 2/3 flyer critter
Exalted Angel - morph 4/5 cirtter with life link and costs 4WW if hard casted

____________________________________________________________

Chronosavant has anyone tried using it ? it would be a good permanent removal against your oppoent especially when your smokestack hits 2 counters. With maybe Jalum Tome to help in getting him faster to the graveyard and getting somesort of draw engine too, but what to cut ?

DeathScythe

11-03-2008, 09:23 AM

Right, I decided to go to a legacy tourny again and this time to play stax and not get high on weed and stuff and play wildfire. There were 31 people playing including myself so unfort it doesn't count for the DtB stuff

Anyway my list

2 elspeth, knight-errant
3 armageddon
2 ravages of war
4 chalice of the void
4 crucible of worlds
3 smokestack
3 trinisphere
4 ghostly prison
2 moat
2 oblivion ring
4 magus of the tabernacle
3 flagstones of trokair
3 mox diamond
3 mishra's factory
3 wasteland
1 kor haven
7 plains
3 city of traitors
4 ancient tomb

Sideboard
3 Suppression field
3 Tormod's crypt
3 defense grid
2 exalted angel
1 trinisphere
1 oblivion ring
1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale
1 gaea's blessing

Normally play aura's instead of the fields but somehow I got persuaded to play the fields again...

Round 1, Fahad MUC (not played by Fahad)

Game 1: He didn't force my T1 trinisphere so manage to lock him turn 4
Game 2: His B2B screws me over while having 2 forces, 3 FoF and 2 counterspells in his hand.
Game 3: I get a Defense grid and Crucible so start pulling tricks by ditching lands and replaying them. In the mean time my mishra's are eating him. When he's on about 8 he is forced to play a sower (leaving 2 lands open) to at least stop me a bit. As my hand included 3 geddons at that time it was easy done.

2-0

Round 2, Survival Rock

Game 1: JUDGE SPOIL! giving a gameloss to my oppenent for illegal decklist.
Game 2: She mulligans to 5 and keeps a crap hand, first thing she played was a 0/1 tarmogoyf on turn 3. In the mean time I'm playing my stuff like chalice, CoW and that kind of stuff. Unfort she finds a awefull lot of land + shriekmaw for my magus so she can go on the beat with her 2/3 tarmogoyf and loxodon hierarch, when I'm at 8 i decide to play a geddon with a 3sphere, chalice @1, smokestack @ 1 and CoW. I fetched a plains from my graveyard. In her turn she plays a land and kicks me to 1 (goyf was now 3/4). My turn I sacrifice my chalice, throw the smoker to 2 and draw a wasteland from the top. Thus wasting her bayou and force her to sac both tarmogoyf and hierarch in her upkeep. Now I had a wastelock so my worries were over. sacrificed oblivion ring (on deed) and smoker and build back my land while maintaining a wastelock. When I drop Elspeth she scoops.

2-0

Round 3, Fahad MUC (Played by Fahad)

Game 1: He keeps pulling forces and counterspells out of his ass and FoFs into retarded cards.

Game 2: he didn't find his fourth land so when I started throwing Trinispheres en defense grids followed by geddons I was a matter of time. His hand included 4 Fof and 3 sowers. EEK!

Game 3: He again started pulling counterspell out of his ass but I kept getting goodstuff from the top so he was busy trying to counter those. Unfort he gets 2 creatures, a sower and a kira which are annoying to get rid of due to the declaration of naught naming geddon (already played 1 ravages). I'm forced to double oblivion ring the sower when I'm on about 8, If he didn't have another sower Magus + mishra + elspeth would've been able to kill him in 3 turns but he drew + played another sower killing my hopes.

2-1

Round 4, Mono Red Roblins

This guy is a close friend of mine, he knows I'm in favour so he prays for godly intervention.

Game 1: GODLY INTERVENTION: mulligans to 5, keeping absolute crap. Lackey gets warchief in play, he cast 1 piley and 1 fanatic. He still has 3 land though. I couldn't play a prison yet. He kicks me to almost oblivion (kept 5 of something) and play a prison.
He attacks with lackey, throws a siege gang in play and he shoots me down next turn.

Game 2: My hand involved 2 prison, 1 moat and 1 oblivion ring and enough land to support this. He never had a chance.

Game 3: Almost closest game I've had against goblins EVER. He had 3 lands out and a hell lot of goblins. I had a prison out but he had 4 lands and I was on 6 (2 pileys). Only option to even think about winning was to rip a magus of the top. Seeing we both were having a hell of a time we slammed the card on the table, followed by a HUGE scream from his side as it was a magus. Game resolves very fast in my favour after that.

3-1

Round 5, Jeroen Shaffhausen

ID, it could've been a bit tricky for him but he got in as the number 8 luckily.

3-1-1

Means I'm going Top 8, I went in as 5th so my opponent was number 4, Bagus Bender

T8 QF Bagus Bender, Specterchant landstill

SPOILER: Both games were omgwtf boring so I'm not ganne write a ull log just simpel things

Game 1: he drops scpeter + counterspell and a standstill soon after that. We go into draw, land go actions. However I had mishra's so starting attacking.
He broke his own standstill in his turn (wha?) and played a crucible (wasteland in the Yard). After this he countered everything I got, wastelanded the crap out of me and dropped a scepter + chant.

Game 2: T2 scepter + DISenchant on it sort of made me want to SCREAM. Which I did giving me a few wierd faces. This game was so retardly long because SOMEONE didn't use his freaking EE to blow my chalice to enable his second scepter inprinting fire/ice. Even though he could recur his EE with his academy ruins he didn't freaking use it for 15 turns or so. Instead he waited till he got a scepter + chant. When he got that down without a kill I was as polite to scoop.

Yay ended 5/8 so at least got my entree fee + a small bonus back in the form of fetch.

Things to rest to the deck
Elspeth is pretty good and distracts people a LOT. Think I'll keep it in here for now.
Suppression fields are so out so I can go back to playing aura's. Preventing stuff from being PLAYED is way better than prevent a source from going active. Also the disenchant bonus for the extra W is something I gladly accept

Unfort I didn't need the blessing but I feared a decent ammount of painter stuff.

Patrick

11-05-2008, 10:26 AM

I've been toying with the sideboard in response to a huge problem my Stax list has been having. In the local metagame, one of my good friends is absolutely feared with his Survival of the Fittest deck. He prizes out almost every week because he's been playing the deck for what seems like forever, and he's just a really good player.

The big problem is that without a nuts first hand (I'm talking Turn 1 Crucible, Turn 2 Trinisphere or Chalice at 1 ((for AEther Vial)) and turn Geddon) he always wins. Cabal Therapy combined with Birds of Paradise almost always takes away my Armageddon (which can singlehandedly win the game). By the time I've dug to another Geddon effect or anything relevant he's already clogged up the board with things like Bone Shredder, Harmonic Sliver, Loxodon Hierarch etc. The survival toolbox is bonkers against Stax, and with the help of AEther Vial and Rofellos he can pour permanents out until Smokestack hurts me far more than him.

I previously had Oblivion Ring brought in, as well as Damping Matrix just to deal with Vial and some other things, O-Ring can just as easily take out a Survival and buy some time. Aura of Silence also comes in for the same reasons, while it can also kill a Recurring Nightmare sometimes. I've been told to bring in Sphere of Resistance, to try and slow the deck down and buy time to draw into Armageddon. The last slot in my sideboard has been Karmic Justice for quite some time, but aside from Pernicious Deed I almost never use the card.

My proposed solution is Humility. Aside from the frustrating rules discrepancies Humility causes, it's a great card. Humility is good in other matchups (Goblins but who cares, Affinity, Zoo, Dragon Stompy, blah blah), but I'm mostly concerned with it against decks like Survival that have creatures with comes-into-play effects to get their strategies on-line. Trinket Mage also springs to mind here.

I only have 1 Humility right now so it's not going to yield accurate results when I play it. What do you guys think, is Humility a viable choice in a sideboard or is it unnecessary creature control in an already creature unfriendly deck?

Julian23

11-05-2008, 10:36 AM

I'm not a regular on this thread/deck but playing Survival I can tell Humility is like _the_ #1 card to shut down the deck.

Skeggi

11-05-2008, 10:36 AM

1 card, 2 words: Suppression Field.

The obvious problem with Humility is the double white and the 4 mana: it simply isn't fast. It's also not a very versatile card; Suppression Field also denies his Vial, Fetchland, Wasteland, Volrath's Stronghold...basically the lot.

Pithing Needle would also help; not exactly synergistic with Chalices, but good nonetheless.

f|i[p]

11-05-2008, 10:36 PM

I think pithing needle would do a better job, Although suppression fields are very good at delaying survival as well..

Sims

11-05-2008, 10:57 PM

But needle doesn't allow you to play the turn 1 chalice at 1 route (on the play) to stop birds and other nonsense, ontop of it only shutting down 1 card. Supression Field may not be a flat out "you cannot activate survival" but it also slows down some of their other tricks aswell.

Mordel

11-06-2008, 12:32 AM

On a different note: I've been trying out Elspeth and it is sort of weird. Not bad necessesarily because they got put in the slots angels would normally fill; just different. They allow me to kill as quickly as an angel, but also are a good back up for feeding stacks too if they don't get taken out by my opponent asap. I still haven't really formulated an actual opinion, but I think in theory, they should fit into the deck better than angel because they essentially fill the same purpose with some added utility. I think I am just mostly attached to angels.

f|i[p]

11-06-2008, 04:11 AM

Does survival really have a lot of 1 casting cost nonsense that is actually a threat? I was thinking chalice at 2 is more important than 1. Chalice won't always be in your opening hand as well so pithing needle would still be a good option. I don't have much experience with survival decks though, so I won't even rub it in.

Elspeth does get a lot of attention it seems. And he may work for some, and for others he may not.One thing is for sure, when elspeth is down, anyone would want elspeth taken out as fast as possible. As for me, I'm sticking to angels for now.

DeathScythe

11-06-2008, 04:28 AM

survival also runs thoughtseize en cabal therapy, I think those 2 could be rather annoying

Mordel

11-06-2008, 05:00 AM

Playtesting is being weird on mws(more so than usual) because I seem to have worse luck with my Elspeth build...which defies logic, but whatever. I'll just chalk it up as dumb luck.

So far results show that Elspeth will kill my opponent just as quickly and serves stack really well, just as I (and numerous others) figured in theory. One thing that has come as a disappointment is that there have been a few times that I would have much rather have just had a 4/5 flying chick with spirit link.

Everything that I know about theory points towards Elspeth, but results are sort of skewed between her and the angel.

This probably seems ridiculous when one considers that several notable individuals don't run either in their builds.

On a more retarded cool things note: I managed to get the big ability of Elspeth off against 4c LS and it was hilarious and completely win-more. It apparently coaxed him into scooping earlier though because he was sitting on a swamp and island and was holding an EE. That didn't matter though because I had an extra geddon in my hand as well as two other crucibles, but it was still funny to pull of. After scooping he flipped his next draw and it was an island XD

Skeggi

11-06-2008, 08:09 AM

Playtesting is being weird on mws(more so than usual) because I seem to have worse luck with my Elspeth build...which defies logic, but whatever. I'll just chalk it up as dumb luck.
Well, according to my logic Elspeth sucks (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=281201&postcount=833), so you can also simply conclude I'm right :wink:

Nihil Credo

11-06-2008, 12:37 PM

Well, according to my logic Elspeth sucks (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=281201&postcount=833), so you can also simply conclude I'm right :wink:
I disagree with your analysis. I haven't yet played with it, but I've gotten the chance to play against it, and while I won't swear on the card it certainly fits in the Stax gameplan - which, I'll remind everyone, is "make it impossibly expensive for your opponent to deal damage to you".

What she is, essentially, is a 2WW Maze of Ith / Kor Haven, with a few other minor abilities (supporting Smokie, lowering your clock [with either ability], plus the ultimate). For the same reasons that Maze of Ith effects fit in Stax, so does Elspeth. "Fits" isn't "belongs", but it's a precondition for it.

Brehn

11-06-2008, 12:39 PM

Skeggi: You're talking about logic while just regarding Elspeth's first ability as a Smokestack enabler? Not even mentioning chumpblocking? I won't buy that.

Mordel

11-06-2008, 05:03 PM

I don't really know about Elspeth being strictly worse than angel because functionally, they are similar: Both essentially swing for four and fly(not terribly useful, but okay), both basically cost four and one is an additional way to feed a stack. I don't really see anything wrong with another way to feed a stack/chump blocker a turn myself. She also soaks up five damage instead of me if my opponent doesn't like the looks of her.

In the end: I'm testing her because I am uncertain. I prefer angel so far, but I felt Elspeth was worth a shot because there have been a few times that crucible hasn't shown up when I had a smoker burning out of desperation and Elspeth would have been a far nicer topdeck than an angel if only for the fact that Elsp would give me another turn to draw what I need.

_erbs_

11-06-2008, 08:27 PM

Hello,
I'll give my exprience on Elspeth since i've been using her over exalted angel since SoA came out. I'll not post my entire deck list but my condition cards are:
2 Elspeth
4 Magus of Tabernacle
4 Mishara's Factory

By the way i only run 3 crusible of worlds and 3 smokestack on my deck. On to Elspeth, in all my times testing her the best ability i like from her is that she draws attention to your opponent instead they are hitting you (like what i've posted above and so to others that have tested her) shes is there main target and against non burn opponents she's kinda hard to handle in my deck i don't find it hard to cast double whites, i seldom used her last ability but during the times shes drawing attention from your opponent it gives you time to draw something that could help a disadvatangous position.

Like what others have posted above she is more of a utility card over a win more or win condition card.

Here is where an angel will get an edge over her (exalted / battlegrace), in situations in where your oppoent could pay your tabernacle, ghostly prision and you haven't drawn any oblivion ring it happens even when you've bored in 3 to 4 cards and has a flyer it would spell doom for you, a single birds of paradise equipped with sofi or jitte on it is a pain.

I've also tried battlegrace angel she has up and downs she shines in situations in where you have a crusible in play and 2-3 mishara's in play you'll never run out of life while recycling your mishra via crusible and could hold off your opponents flyers cause when your opponents flyers swing you could block it or let it through and just swing back afterwards with her at 5/5 with lifelink again the damage done by your opponent is nullified with lifelink.

_______________________________________________________________

With regards to SB im also having a hard time completing my SB list the current list i have right now are:

4 tormod's crypt
3 pithing needle
3 defense grid
3 aura of silence
2 ??

Cards that im considering are
sphere of law, powder keg, suppression field, karmic justice & story circle

The problems ive encoured so far in this deck are:
- Pro White Critters
- Gaddock Teeg
- Direct Burn
- Early Combo / Disruption from your opponent (meaning no CotV or Trini drawn on your 1st to 3rd turns to slow your opponents)

Hoping to hear some suggestions on my SB problem

Thanks

Nihil Credo

11-06-2008, 09:33 PM

By the way i only run 3 crusible of worlds
*banghead*

(which is not the same as *headbang*)

I've written it elsewhere in this thread, and you can ask other people to back me up on this: you must run 4 Crucible of Worlds in Stax, period. I am as confident on this number as on any other I have ever written.

It's redundant in multiples, yes (other than as a Smokestack sacrifice). It's also the glue that makes Stax a deck worth playing, and one of the two sources of significant card advantage you run (the other being Chalice).

Without Crucible, your cards have to show up in a specific way in order not to shit on each other. With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.

Mordel

11-06-2008, 11:33 PM

[B]*banghead*
With Crucible, you have a deck full of high-quality cocaine powder ready to be snorted from 20-year-old Kylie Minogue's ass. Play fucking four.

Dude, that is sig-worthy. In fact: sig'd.

I guess the battle for Elspeth rages on...oh another note: I absolutely do not see any merit in battlegrace. There is said situation with sending a factory in over and over, but that is about it.

It costs more and only has spirit link on the swing. Pass.

Skeggi

11-07-2008, 03:25 AM

Skeggi: You're talking about logic while just regarding Elspeth's first ability as a Smokestack enabler? Not even mentioning chumpblocking? I won't buy that.
There are alot of valid points why Elspeth would be viable in Stax, I know. But on every point there's a card that's simply better. If you want to keep your Smokestack@2 or higher, the following cards are better than Elspeth: Flagstones of Trokair (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html), but you probably already have 3 or 4 of these in your deck. Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai (http://magiccards.info/bok/en/164.html), but this takes a land drop, just like Flagstones. Mobilization (http://magiccards.info/10e/en/29.html) Sacred Mesa (http://magiccards.info/at/en/47.html) Kjeldoran Outpost (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/184.html), uncounterable and slight synergy with Crucible. Caribou Range (http://magiccards.info/5e/en/290.html), okay, I'll admit, this one is flatout worse than Elspeth. Spirit Mirror (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/260.html)

If you want a beatstick you should use: Exalted Angel (http://magiccards.info/ts/en/272.html) Battlegrace Angel (http://magiccards.info/ala/en/6.html)

Although I don't believe this deck needs a beatstick. As I've pointed out, the third ability isn't that good either. I understand Elspeth is more versatile than the cards I named, because she can either keep Smokestack up or beat face; but she also gets beat herself. Prison doesn't protect her and the optional army of tokens isn't synergistic with Tabernacle effects.

By all means, keep on testing her and prove me wrong. I just think Stax is alot more stable without her. If you want an extra Smokestack feeder that doesn't require a landdrop, I recommend Kjeldoran Outpost (http://magiccards.info/ai/en/184.html) (although this doesn't make you happy in a Wasteland infested meta).

Mordel

11-07-2008, 04:48 AM

lol, Caribou Range...I used to love that card when I was a kid and I opened the pack of ice age that came with a duelist or something: "holy shit caribou! AWESOME". If I could somehow run that card...and it was playable, I so would, dude!

I am pretty much neutral on Elspeth, so please just entertain me with reasoning as to how spirit mirror is better than Elspeth. Mobilization is somewhat troublesome with the cost, but one white mana requirement...okay, I get it, but spirit mirror can't do the evasive swing even though it isn't necessarily needed and is other than that, nearly identical, excluding the singing at planeswalkers directly has...which is what I think you are getting at. I am pretty much going to write-off the other suggestions because they basically require a crucible to be effective. The universal (and laughable in many ways) metagame I have is the internet and it is pretty wasteland happy, so outpost gets thumbs down from me.

I just want an explanation for spirit mirror besides a 2/2 each turn that needs a grip or something like that, which is unlikely because it is a fucking spirit mirror...who the fuck is going to waste a grip on a spirit mirror when a stack is on the table?

Needless to say, I think the lack of the threat to the opponent made by the ability to have a 4/4 flyer swinging at them every turn that is basically only slowed down by removal is worth a look. Some opponents don't really know stax as well as we might think and they will fuck up their priority of killing you by equating it with killing the planewalker by diverting five damage to it. While this is not a consistently favourable scenario, over a quarter of my life staying is pretty nice. I never had visions of an army of 1/1's when I decided to try Elspeth for the hell of it because magus is one card that shows up plenty all the time for me...sometimes to a fault...in multiples of three...over the span of four turns.

With all that schpiel said, Elspeth is primarily a fifth and six, far more sub-optimal crucible, but also is a threat and a subversive way to prevent damage and waste and opponent's resources and time. I think that the last two features are the main reason why I am testing her and not mirror...that and spirit mirror is fucking spirit mirror...like damn.

Skeggi

11-07-2008, 09:53 AM

The reason to run Spirit Mirror over Elspeth is pretty obvious. Elspeth can be attacked, and then she dies. Spirit Mirror can't be attacked; if the token can't chump, the Mirror still lives on, making sure that whatever is pounding your face, will have to be sacrificed sooner or later (with Smokestack@2, rather sooner than later).

I know you could argue that Spirit Mirror will catch enchantment hate; but most decks run far more creature threats than enchantment removal; making Elspeth (or any other Planeswalker) more vulnerable than Spirit Mirror. Our primary defense lies within mana denial and prison effect. But this doesn't protect Elspeth. Basically she can only be kept alive when you're probably already winning, putting Elspeth in the win-more section.

But I wouldn't run Spirit Mirror either; I'm just saying, if pooping out a token each turn is that fantastic, why didn't we use Spirit Mirror earlier? The answer to this is, we don't need to poop out a token each turn. What we need is to draw that Armageddon, that Smokestack, or that Magus of the Tabernacle. We don't need to draw Elspeth (or Spirit Mirror), so I don't include her (or it) in my deck.

About Mobilization: the big advantage here is that you can make as many tokens as you like, enableing you to run Smokestack@5 in the long run. No way anyone can keep up with that :wink:. But I probably won't use Mobilization either, but it might be fun to test at least.

_erbs_

11-07-2008, 10:36 AM

anyone tried using karn, silver golem ? so that other artifacts would still be usefull

Arsenal

11-07-2008, 10:45 AM

anyone tried using karn, silver golem ? so that other artifacts would still be usefull

On paper, it would open you up to your opponent's creature removal. Getting your Crucible of Worlds Smothered would be :frown:. Karn seems win-more, and he also opens you up to creature hate that normally would be 90% dead against you.

klaus

11-07-2008, 01:51 PM

Pondering on the inclusion of Elspeth, I came across this mirage:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/3010324999_4ca352b766_o.jpg
Ensaring Bridge>G. Prison: The #1 pro arguement being: Granted you play your entire hand, which should be doable pretty swiftly, your planeswalkers can't be attacked:cool: .
#2 You can't be attacked. #3 It's colorless. OK.OK. adding three to four 2WW dudes diminishes that bonus :tongue:
What is more, with Tarmogoyfs, Dreadnoughts and Tombstalkers infesting numerous archetypes, Ghostly Prison simply isn't what it used to be :frown: , I know you're with me on this one. That's why Ensaring Bridge seems like a promising replacement for it.
Of course I'm aware of the obvious drawback that EB inherits: Our own kill becomes more complicated to execute. Then again we must not forget that Stax is a natural prison deck that simply does what it wants as soon as mission board control is completed.
Bottom line being: Either we find a slick bypass or we need to get rid of EB (in case our opponent hasn't already conceded:wink: ).
...our natural outs being:
- sac EB to Smokestack (not cool)
- remove EB with Ring (not cool)
- or...(tataa!) create infinite Elspeth tokens and bash ftw! (1 card in hand suffices. Heh!)

With EB, Ajani Goldmane/Vengeant become realistic options, too, with the latter being immune to EB's drawback.
That being said, I haven't completely tuned my BridgeStax.dec, yet. Here is my entré, though:

Core (monoW):
4 Ensaring Bridge
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon/Ravages of War
4 Mox Diamond
3-4 Trinisphere
3-4 Smokestack
2-3 Oblivion Ring
(28-31, leaving 4-6 open slots)

Aspiring candidates:
1-2 Ajani Goldmane (probably 1)
1-3 Elspeth (probably 2)

Outsider:
0-4 Magus of the Tabernacle
With a third of the creature taxing suite gone (-4 Ghostly Prison), Magus' shotty slot for team geddonstax is questionable. Taxing our own Elspeth soldiers sucks, too.
Those 4 slots must be occupied by some sort of "creature hate" and possible killcon, however - Windborn Muse being a likely successor and 2nd wincon (sans EB)- what do you say?
---
Thoughts on the new SB:
Going the Soldier kill route means, we have to make sure they survive long enough. That is why Engineered Explosives and Pernicous Deed are to be adressed even more than before, I think (E. Angel didn't care too much about them, didn't she..)
So 4 Pithing Needle (over Suppression Field) seems like that way to go.
Running Planeswalkers definitely weakens the Burn MU - or does it?
1-2 additional Ajanis should fix this MU.
Absolute Law seems overkill, even though it helps against stuff like Pyroclasm.
Phew. Burned out for now...

Let me know what you think.

Klaus

Mordel

11-07-2008, 03:55 PM

Hmmm, I don't think vengeant is really viable because of the red issue and I don't really like Goldmane because two life per turn is sort of meh for a four mana card. A card that I am intrigued by is bridge. The only real issue with bridge is that if you are being pressured a bunch, your opponent will in effect be pressuring you into burning cards you might rather hang onto. Then again most stuff that turns sideways in this format is of a three or bigger power.

I am sure that someone that has tested this will give their thoughts because it seems too obvious to not test in geddon stax being as suntower ran bridge if I recall.

Captain Hammer

11-07-2008, 06:44 PM

I'm on the same boat. Im not particuarly impressed by any of the Plainswalkers.

But Ensnaring Bridge seems very promising in a meta infested with Dreadnoughts, Tarmogoyfs and Tombstalkers.

I guess Plainswalkers give you a way to get around Bridge, but there's got to be a better option.

I suppose you can keep yourself at 2 cards and beat with Magus and Factories.

georgjorge

11-07-2008, 07:05 PM

However, the Goblins and Goyf Sligh matchup will be severely weakened. The advantage of Bridge might still outweigh that, but I think you'd at least have to include sideboard cards for those matchups.

Captain Hammer

11-08-2008, 12:44 AM

I'm not saying that we should cut Ghostly Prison (though we might be able to get away with cutting one).

I was just wondering outloud actually.

There seem to be 2-3 meta cards in the deck. Cards where people opt to play either Oblivion Ring, Cataclysm, Ravages of War, Windborn Muse or a Plainswalker.

Perhaps 2-3 Ensnaring Bridge could be tried there.

The traditional slot typically given 3 Exalted/Battlegrace Angels could be given to some neowin condition like a Plainswalker instead.

But a neowin condition is not even neccesarily needed. Factories and Magus can still attack thru EB as long as you keep 2 cards in your hand during the attack phase and play one only after you attacked.

Sounds like it could have potential.

Mordel

11-08-2008, 04:16 AM

There are some situations where a bridge could be more effective than an o-ring, which is usually the much saught after meta slot in mosts decks that I see kicking around

The meta slots are usually angels, rings or ravages. I might be leaving something out, but a bridge could potentially shut the one big creature down worse than anything else...the only problem is that you need to draw a magus/geddon to get its ass out of the way to swing =/

I dunno, testing Elspeth in my deck is good enough for me, I'm not fuckin' around with bridges until I figure out whether I really like her or not.

DeathScythe

11-08-2008, 04:57 AM

Mordel

11-08-2008, 07:09 AM

Prison is totally better than bridge, but moat does pretty much the same thing functionally...hmmm

klaus

11-08-2008, 01:45 PM

prison >>>> ensnaring bridge anytime of the day for me
This is due to a very simple reason: If you happen to have both a prison and a trinisphere out you force your opponent to think about what to do. Will he attack (being unable to counter) or will he attack (enabling a counter, but giving you an extra turn). Most people will prob go for the assault as they do NOT want to give stax those turns and if they do you can just Geddon them to seal the game.

...I disagree with your reasoning, which I believe is totally flawed:
G. Prison+"xyz-lock-piece"= giving your opponent the opportunity to attack or do other stuff (not forcing him to do "x").
Bridge+xyz-lock-piece= (most of the time) denying your opponent the opportunity to attack.

Building your argument on "if my opponent has more options he's likely to make the worse choice" is a logic that doesn't make sense in a competitive environment.

Prison is totally better than bridge
It's cool if you think that way, it'd be more pro if you added an explanation to your hypothesis, though.
--
Anyway, here are some things to consider:
Ghostly Prison (pros):
- better turn 1/2 drop, when staring down a horde of Zombie(icho.dec)/ETW tokens.
- not vulnerable to artifact hate ála Shattering Spree, Goblin Tinkerer, Tinstreet Hooligan, Smash to Smithereens, Shatterstorm(:laugh:).
- feel free to complete the list

Ensnaring Bridge (pros):
- better casting cost (colorless)
- better casting cost than Moat and no strings attached (applies to fliers, too)
- shuts down opposing critters as a one-of (read: its effect is not conditional* after having played most of your hand) *whereas G.Prison IS conditional and only really denies attacks in multiples or accompanied with successful massive mana denial (additional prerequisite).
- is superior, when staring down a lonely Goyf, Tombstalker, Dreadnought, etc..= more frequent scenario than the token example above.
- Mulling due to mana flooding/shortage does not hurt as badly anymore: With G.PRison you need a certain amount of lock pieces asap in order to win the game.
With Bridge having mulled to 4 or 5 for whatever reason isn't neccessarily 'gg' against aggro since you can slam down a Bridge and take it from there. And hey, you don't even have to play as many spells to reach full protection. ;)
- (other than G.Prison) must be handled by decks that win via combat dmg (=80% of the field)*
* Any creature can go the distance right through 2G. Prisons
- protects Planeswalkers
---

For refereance - here's the list that I've been testing today (comments added):

GeddonStax_2.1:
4 Ensaring Bridge-------has been solid all day - I never wanted it to be G. Prison, ever.
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
2 Ajani Goldmane----------even though he bought me several turns (giving me 12+ lifes: via his 1st ability and by 'eating' combat dmg) Ajani turned out to be a MD failure, since he doesn't affect the board position. I still consider making room for 2 copies in my SB.
2 Oblivion Ring------------the 'allrounder'. I might ramp 'em up to 3, making room for Ajani in the SB
2 Elspeth------------------replacing Angels proved to be a bomb, to say the least. I consider adding "Else" #3.
3 Magus o.t. Tabernacle---He's still very good! His dissynergy with Elspeth tokens is a minor flaw compared to his impact on our game.
(--35--)
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
(--25--)

SB:
4 Pithing Needle------------replaced Suppression Fields (=not synergistic with Elspeth/Factories/Wasteland)
4 Defense Grid
2 Sphere of Law
2 Ethersworn Canonist-----I felt we need more combo hate. Combo decks adopting H.'s Recall, Serenity, (Soli adopting Command...) and the likes are troublesome.
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Trinisphere
---
More results to come. Comments appreciated.

Klaus

---
Optimized Version
GeddonStax_2.2:
4 Ensaring Bridge
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Armageddon
4 Mox Diamond
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Elspeth
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
7 Plains
2 Mishra's Factory
SB:
4 Pithing Needle
4 Defense Grid
3 Ajani Goldmane
1 Magus of the Tabernacle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere

Wargoos

11-08-2008, 03:32 PM

prison >>>> ensnaring bridge anytime of the day for me

I dunno, being assraped by a single goyf, that still can come by thou Prison found place is just lame.
Bridge sounds auspicious to me.

Captain Hammer

11-08-2008, 03:34 PM

Great points klaus. I agree completely. G. Prison gives your opponent a choice as to what is best for them. Bridge doesn't. Not giving them a choice is always better.

You did leave off Ensnaring Bridge's biggest con though. It makes it much harder for you to win as well. You can no longer count on bigass Angels to quickly end the game for you rather than have it drag on for another twenty minutes. But somepeople dislike Angels already. So for them, Ensnaring should be very promising.

As for Moat, it costs 4 mana. That's pretty significant actually. And it also does nothing to stop Tombstalkers, Trygon Predators, Mystic Enforcers, Angels, Sea Drakes and Hypnotic Specters. That's pretty significant as well.

I got a national comming up next week and I'm still to decide whether I will play my wildfire or my stax, if I go for staxx I will run elspeth and go on the reportage.

imho, wildfire is not a very good card these days. The most popular creatures nowadays are Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought. Wildfire doesn't kill any of them.

It's basically a 6cc Armageddon that only blows up 4 lands and thus doesn't screw over control decks nearly as much.

So I'm not sure why the card would see much play in legacy.

DeathScythe

11-08-2008, 03:44 PM

I dunno, being assraped by a single goyf, that still can come by thou Prison found place is just lame.
Bridge sounds auspicious to me.

being raped by 1 power goblins under a bridge also doesn't sound very good to me aswell. But both cards have their pro's and cons and I still think prison is better due to the fact that people have to pay mana for attacking, which is in fact synergic with the overall list.

And captain hammah, WildFire is also a deck nowadays...

Sims

11-08-2008, 04:54 PM

imho, wildfire is not a very good card these days. The most popular creatures nowadays are Goyf, Tombstalker and Dreadnought. Wildfire doesn't kill any of them.

It's basically a 6cc Armageddon that only blows up 4 lands and thus doesn't screw over control decks nearly as much.

So I'm not sure why the card would see much play in legacy.

There are many more tools available to a deck with this style of control than just WildFire. What happens when the control deck sees you cycle decree of annihilation? Or if the creature deck watches you cast Devastation? Burning wish -> Rough/Tumble handles Tombstalkers.... The deck and concept is not limited to just wildfire.

georgjorge

11-08-2008, 06:03 PM

More results to come. Comments appreciated.

As I said, it looks like you need sideboard cards against Goblins when you don't run Prison. Is Sphere of Law really enough here ?

Canonist doesn't actually help against Hurkyls Recall or Serenity. Against Serenity, at least you have three Rings, but against Recall the only thing that helps would be Chalice @2, I think. Maybe you could sideboard Chant (I think having one mana open is not that difficult, and if there's a 3Sphere or Chalice down, they have to get rid of that first anyway). It can replace Defense Grid since it does the same thing (only worse).

_erbs_

11-09-2008, 11:19 PM

Pre geddonstax deck was made i've constructed a white stax deck that uses ensaring bridge.

I combined it with bottled cloister. The defense of the deck would greatly improve but you still need ghostly prison. and the win condition was very long thus i didn't push through.

Maybe the inclussion of ensnaring bridge would fit a different build all together. Maybe it would be different approah on how you'll lock a player, like the use of an enlightened tutor or draw engine or something.

The current geddon stax build has already good synergy, and yes the win condition is slow if the only win condition you have are the magus and factories but for me i like better that way.

Again it would boil down to a players preferrence if he / she would use an angel or plainswalker.

Skeggi

11-10-2008, 04:19 AM

I've just returned from a 24 man tournament where I ended 7th. About the bridge/prison question I can add another thing: Powder Keg would have killed my Bridge, but keeps my Prison alive. Hoorah for Prison. In my meta, there's always a couple of Goblins and Dragon Stompies around. They carry Shattering Spree. Not nice to add Bridge to the list of stuff that gets spreed imo.

Anyway, without further ado, I'll give you my ridiculous decklist (did I mention it was a 20-ish man tourney, so it's a perfect testride for the big'uns :smile:)

ADHD-Stax:
4 Magus of the Tabernacle

3 Smokestack
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Mox Diamond

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Oblivion Ring

4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
--+
36 nonlands

7 Plains
1 Plateau
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Kor Haven
--+
24 lands

Sideboard:

4 Suppression Field
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Powder Keg
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Plains

Yes people, those who are following the Source for the last few months may have noticed I am a little bit crazy, so I tried a ridiculous sideboard. Now I'm going to try and remember my match-ups as best as possible and explain why I did certain silly things :wink:.

Match 1: Fahad MUC, played by Fahad.

If you're Dutch, you know this guy. You also know he plays MUC. You also know he's good at playing MUC.

We start off and I begin with a mul (no land) and then keep a slow but steady hand. He drops a Powder Keg which I mistake for a Vedalken Shackles along the line, seeing it pop at 3 and loses me the game. Oops, I guess I didn't have enough coffee yet :wink:

I sideboard in: 1 Kjeldoran Outpost, 1 Plains for 2 Wastelands. 2 Ajani Vengeants and 2 Powder Kegs for 4 Ghostly Prison.

Game 2 begins: I have to mul again to six. I keep a hand with only 2 lands, but with alot of utility; I believe Powder Keg, Crucible of Worlds, Oblivion Ring and Armageddon. Turn 1 I drop a land. Turn 2 I drop a land and a Powder Keg. He wonders what I need the Powder Keg was for, after the match I explained to him it was against his Powder Kegs, which made sense :wink:. Anyway, long story cut short: I don't draw land 3 until turn 8 or so, and he went aggro mode with Sower of Temptation and Morphling. Ouch.

0-1-0

Match 2 was against W/G Zoo with Epochrasite and Flickerwisp, played by Maarten.

I don't remember alot about game 1, but after a few turns I Geddon him, lock him down and win.

Because he played G/W I assumed he has Gaddock Teegs, so I sided in my Powder Kegs and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, since appeared to have no nonbasic hate, I also put in my Kjeldoran Outpost. Out went 4 Chalice of the Void I believe.

He begins, and stomps me with Epochrasite and Flickerwisp. I'm down in 3 or 4 turns or so. Ouch.

I didn't see Gaddock Teeg, so I pulled out a Smokestack, Trinisphere and put in 2 Ajani Vengeant.

I kept a funky fast hand for the fun of it. I began, so what the heck :wink:. I dropped a turn 2 Ajani Vengeant which denied his mana for a few turns, and then started shooting his Flickerwisp and Mangara of Corondor. His 4/4 Epochrasite recieved an Oblivion Ring. Ajani won me the game here, he was very cool :smile:. Turns out later, Maarten played Gaddock Teeg mainboard; he just didn't draw him.

1-1-0

Match 3, UGb disruptcontrol by Johan. A bit like Threshold, but no Nimble Mongoose and more control. Johan had won the big tournament the day before in Rotterdam, so I know what he can do.

Game 1, after a few turns I lock him and he scoops.

I side in Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg against his Goyfs and Bob. I was thinking about getting Suppression Fields, because he used lots of Fetch, but I didn't bother. I believe I took out 4 Ghostly Prisons.

Game 2, I softlock him, but he gets in a Goyf. After a while I get Oblivion Ring on that sucker and a little while later, just before I hardlock him, he scoops.

2-1-0

Match 4, Mono Blue Faeries by Mike. I've seen Mike at a couple of tournaments but never played him. I also had no idea what he played. On top of that, I never played Faeries so I had no idea what to expect from the T2 jank.

Game 1, it takes quite a while, but eventually he gets me...

I think I sided in The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, 2 Powder Kegs, 2 Ajani Vengeant and 2 Engineered Explosives, and side out 4 Chalice of the Void (he didn't play anything of consequence with cc1 or cc2) and 1 Trinisphere.

Game 2, I have to mul to 6, don't really get started (he boarded in Relic Barrier) and get pwned by a big 4/4 flyer. Damnit, it's very politically incorrect, but I hate Faeries.

2-2-0

Match 5, GWR Zoo by Jelmer.

Game 1, I've seen him play before but I forgot what he played. I was on the play, so I just thought, ah well, let's do the standard program: Ancient Tomb, Chalice@1, go. Jelmer screamed and cried. I knew I did something right. Then I remember it. He played Kird Ape, Wild Nacatl, Swords to Plowshares, Berserks and the like. This was going to be fun. He drops fetch, fetches Savannah, go. The second turn I dropped a Trinisphere. He cried some more. After a while he thumps me with a 2/3 Tarmogoyf, while I have a Ghostly Prison in play. Just for the heck of it I Oblivion Ring his Tarmogoyf. He screams some more, and when I get Wastelock on him he scoops.

Sideboard...well, what to sideboard against your perfect match-up? Hmm, let's see...I could use those Powder Kegs, Engineered Explosives, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale and Kjeldoran Outpost (I could even use the Suppression Fields against the Fetches, GeddonStax packs just too much hate against these kind of decks). But what to board out? For the Kjeldoran Outpost it was easy: I just took a Plains out and threw that one in. I also took out 3 Smokestacks and put in the Powder Keg and an Explosives.

Game 2, he begins plays Taiga and nothing. I play some stuff, he plays some more. Somewhere turn 3 or 4 (I didn't have him locked yet), he thought 'what's the use' and offered me his hand.

3-2-0.

I now have 9 points and you need 10 to win something; I had no chance of getting in the top4 (because it's such a small tourney there wasn't a top8, but a top4).

Match 6: Aggro Loam by Merrin.

I know Merrin. I also know he plays a good Loam. I explained the 10-point rule to him and we agreed upon a draw (we played 2 games for fun and he totally kicked my ass. I was playing weird though; but still, Aggro Loam is still a tough match-up).

3-2-1

All in all, I must say I like Ajani Vengeant in my sideboard. I probably won't play any Planeswalker mainboard though; they're just not worth it. But that turn 2 Ajani was incredible!

Surpisingly I didn't use Suppression Field. I'm now thinking of cutting them for Pithing Needles. Yes, I'm thinking of cutting the Suppression Fields. Not Ajani or Kjeldoran Outpost or the Plains. How weird am I? :tongue:

klaus

11-10-2008, 04:36 AM

Surpisingly I didn't use Suppression Field. I'm now thinking of cutting them for Pithing Needles. Yes, I'm thinkint of cutting the Suppression Fields. Not Ajani or Kjeldoran Outpost or the Plains. How weird am I? :tongue:
- That singleton Plateau alongside our Diamonds won't reliably endow you with R to cast Ajani.
- Outposts? SB Plains? You sure boast a unique kind of humor :laugh:
---
On Bridge again..
Here's an RW version that I put together during the last two days:

4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Plains
4 Plateau
(-25-)

2 Ajani Vengeants
2 Elspeths
3 Smokestacks
4 Moxen
4 Chalices
4 Bridges
3 Trinispheres
4 Geddons
4 Crucibles
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Magi

SB:
4 Needles
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Defense Grid
2 Ajani Goldmane
? Firespout ?
? Magus of the Moon ?
? something RED, that rocks ? - help me out.

I'm still convinced the Bridge+Planeswalker thing has a lot of potential.
I'll let you know what testing tells me.

Skeggi

11-10-2008, 04:44 AM

- That singleton Plateau alongside our Diamonds won't reliably endow you with R to cast Ajani.
- Outposts? SB Plains? You sure boast a unique kind of humor :laugh:

Actually I had no problem producing the :r: when I needed it, wether for Ajani or for EE@2. The Oupost functioned in some games as a Kor Haven. I'm surprised by how good it is actually. As long as they don't play too much nonbasic hate, it's a great card to have! But I have been screwed over with nonbasic hate before, that's why I put in the Plains. I still don't regret it :wink:.

Your Planeswalker Stax list looks like alot of fun though :smile:. I must say nonbasic hate is pretty big in my meta. I don't think I can pull this off.

ykpon

11-10-2008, 12:40 PM

Noman Peopled

11-10-2008, 01:20 PM

did anyone test tutors? i know they have bad sinergy with chalices but they can help u against fast decks. i mean if u have a prison or smthg like a prison against goblins u will probably win. if u havent then u usually have to mulligan until u get it it. if u still dont get it or enough mana to pay for it then u will lose. same thing is with trinisphere against combo. how about using tutors in a main deck or even in a sideboard to have additional copies of cards u need against fast decks?

also playing tutors allows u to play some silver bullets like moat for goblins, sphere of law for burn, oblivion ring for trygon predator, humility for survivals, pithing needle for deed, runed halo for something ure afraid of etc. what do u think?
I have found ETutor to be awkward. At times it will get you exactly what you need, at times it will set you back by doing exactly what you brought it in for in the first place, and at times you'll be unhappy because you got Chalice, which is good, but are facing an attacker, which is not. Blue can let it resolve then counter the target, resulting in a huge tempo swing for them.
Needle is brought in in matchups where it'll hurt your opponent nearly as much as Chalice, thus being a legitimate pre-Chalice play, and reasonable enough to keep a hand with one mana on t1, whereas ETutor is not.

I also think (and this too comes from experience) that turning Stax into a toolbox is not a good idea. We don't have a draw or even filter engine; consistency is thus very important, and even so we're facing the dreaded five land or no accel draw. Singleton lands don't hurt much, but you'll hate drawing overly specialized spells when you need another lock piece.

klaus

11-10-2008, 01:49 PM

Your Planeswalker Stax list looks like alot of fun though :smile:. I must say nonbasic hate is pretty big in my meta. I don't think I can pull this off.
4 Crucibles, 4 Flagstones, 4 Diamonds should keep you in good shape against nonbasic hate.
If you wanna play it even safer:
go:
2 Fetchies
2 Plateau
5 Plains

Skeggi

11-11-2008, 02:50 AM

4 Crucibles, 4 Flagstones, 4 Diamonds should keep you in good shape against nonbasic hate.

Not all nonbasic hate is Wasteland. Crucible and Flagstones do nothing against Moon effects, Back to Basics or Price of Progress. Stifle doesn't only work on Fetch but also on Flagstones.

f|i[p]

11-11-2008, 03:37 AM

All in all, I must say I like Ajani Vengeant in my sideboard. I probably won't play any Planeswalker mainboard though; they're just not worth it. But that turn 2 Ajani was incredible!

Congrats on the top 7 skeggi!

Would you care to elaborate more on Ajani being incredible... Ajani's on the side, I assume, comes more against control variants and thresh..

Skeggi

11-11-2008, 04:46 AM

;292443']Congrats on the top 7 skeggi!

Would you care to elaborate more on Ajani being incredible... Ajani's on the side, I assume, comes more against control variants and thresh..
Thanks :smile:

As I said in my tournament report, Ajani was able to slow the opponent down real nice, and every threat except 1 got shot down by his Lightning Helix. The one threat that got through recieved an O-ring. The boy scooped right after Ajani hit 7 loyalty. In this specific case Ajani was very nice.

I've been thinking about the situation; what if I otherwise would have had Exalted Angel for instance: she'd have gone out and fly turn 2, but she is vulnerable to plows, and what's more, she doesn't deny mana and Ajani does; basically you can look at it like this: Angel stomps your opponent and gains you life, creating a possible 'Angellock'. Ajani slows down your opponent and kills his creatures (and then also gains you life), creating a possible 'Ajanilock'; which is a softer lock than the Angellock, but fits the theme of Armageddon Stax very nicely.

Ajani isn't good per se against decks that play control; aggro-ish decks with a tight mana curve also seem to die to Ajani. Often the creatures they produce die to Lightning Helix; and otherwise you can deny their mana. I'm still not convinced on Ajani I must admit, but he surely still is something to keep in mind. In the entirety of 6 rounds, he was broken once, and a couple of times useful on occasion: drew out a FoW and stuff like that. Ofcourse you can wonder if :2::r::w: is worth drawing out a FoW :wink:

f|i[p]

11-15-2008, 09:49 AM

Ok.. a shourt tourney report... Went on a 33 person tourney, I got a 3-2 record... top 9... didn't get to make it to top 8 but It was quite a good tourney over all.

I was quite bored and since I saw 2-3 players who were bringing angel stax itself, I decided to tweak it and try skeggis sideboard just to be different in a way.

List

24 lands
4 ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
6 plains
2 plateau
3 wasteland
3 mishras factory
3 flagstones
4 mox diamond

3 exalted angel
4 magus of the tabernacle

4 trinisphere
4 chalice
3 smokestack
2 O.ring
4 armageddon
4 ghostly prison
4 crucible of worlds

Sideboard
2 ajani vengeant
3 supression field
2 O ring
3 defense grid
3 sphere of resistance
2 battlegrace angel

Round 1 Angel stompy
G1
I draw 7, I draw 5 lands 2 armageddons, I have no Idea why I didnt mulligan here, I thought it was not such a bad match up...I draw into more lands... I lose.
G2
I draw 7, and no land, I mulligan to 6, 1 land.. I assume that i would get more lands after a while and never drew into anything. After a silver knight and priest does some beat down, I finally drew into tomb, and a wasteland, but then I couldn't use the tomb as everytime I did use it, I took another 2. I o ring priest, his silver knight stands by. My mishra stands by, wastelands mana not being used just incase S. knight attacks. I draw into another tomb.I now have a magus and chalice in hand. I chalice for 1 to make sure he doesnt stp my magus. He top decks seal.I putdown magus, he seals chalice,stps magus. I lose eventually.

0-2 Bad start..

Round 2 Ichorid
G1
1st turn chalice at 1 stalls the game.trinisphere and smokestack lock after
G2
He puts down a land,I put down a sphere of resistance, then chalice for zero, then ghostly prison.

2--2.. Im catching up.

ROund 3 Spring tide

G1, chalice for 1 stalls the game, trinisphere and smokestack lock after.
G2, I play sphere of resistance.. then trinsphere, smokestack lock after.

4-2

Round 4 Epic storm

G1,
He starts with 2 lotus petals and 2 lions eye pass., I start with trinisphere, then I beat down with angel. He wasn't able to go around angel and g.prisons in time.As I think he was hoping for a emtpy the warrens kill.
G2,
He plays lions eye and petal, I play sphere of resistance,and chalice at zero, he plays shattering spree and gets to make 12 tokens the next turn. I lose
G3
I start with a god hand, and since I am starting, I put down chalice for zero, put down city of traitors, and then chalice for 1. He smiles and thinks he is doomed but maybe he can still go around it. He plays a land then passes. Next turn I drop a trinisphere. He scoops.

6-3

Round 5 Faeri stompy
G1
I finish the game by baiting force of wills with angels and then armageddon with ghostly prison in play and smokstack.
G2
I get land screwed and wasn't able to get any white mana.
G3
I get mana screwed and didn't get my 3rd land in time. Sea drake was kicking my butt while waiting for the 3rd mana. It was too late when it did come around.

7-5 overall

Over all the deck played quite well, Combo decks mostly fold to this deck and its still quite awesome to play.

It is quite hard to play vs. single creatures with equipment as they get around ghostly prison..
The splash of red wasn't fully utilized since I mostly faced combo players. Battle grace was supposed to be an alternative against red based decks like burn.
Pithing needle is quite important to the deck, defense grids could probably be cut to 2.

Lammina

11-15-2008, 06:53 PM

Hi all!

In my last champs with the W. Stax, the scores are beater me: 3-2, 3-3, 2-3.... against aggro decks!
I cant believe in this results... beatdown decks are weak facing the sta, but, the reality is other for me....

Please, I need help for a HEAVY aggro (elfs, goblins, soldiers, ENTS (?!?!)....) metagame.

Here is my actual test-list:

6x Plains
3x Wasteland
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kor Haven

Artifacts:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Trinisphere
4x Mox Diamond
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Smokestack

White:
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Armageddon
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Cataclism

SIDEBOARD:

4x Defense Grid
4x Supression Field
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Rule of Law
1x Windborn Muse

I have a question: what you think: - 1 Magus, -1 Cataclism or Elspeth and +2 Wrath of god...... or windborn muses...... silent arbiter.... put angels in Main deck... for tell the true, I dont make any idea.... the meta is too heavy beatdown.... Uusing my RB goblin I can make 7-0.... 6-1......

Comments PLEASEEE!

Tnx,

Lammina

hugh1130

11-15-2008, 07:39 PM

exalted angel is a very good card against aggro decks and beat down strats in general.

i play geddon stacks in an aggro heavy meta to and there are a few thing you can do play-style wise as-well.

dont use ancient tomb if it wont clearly effect the gamestate in your favor
life is very relevant in these games ( countless time where i have stablized and gone on to win at 2-8 life)

(pretty much prision/magus/geddon/cuicible only)

chalice and trinisphere outside of a turn 1-2 play get played after prison/magus/angel.

Captain Hammer

11-16-2008, 01:55 AM

Dude, if aggro is such a heavy percentage of your metagame, just make room for 4 Windborn Muse and 4 Mishra's Factory

If 8 Prison effect + 4-5 Tabernacle effects and a crap load of land destruction can't screw over the aggro decks you play, nothing can.

f|i[p]

11-16-2008, 07:34 AM

As for me, I never really had problems with swarm aggro. Aggro decks I hate to face are those that tend to rely on 1-2 creatures to finish the game as they can play around ghostly prison most of the time.

Although back last month in the GP I took top 7th spot and I had 3 wrath of gods in my side board as I knew it was going to be aggro heavy. So I guess you can start by putting angels back in and adding creature control on the sideboard...

I wouldn't really suggest windborn muse , Although they do delay the game for a time, they are just to easy to kill. Silent arbiter may do better . Wrath of god on the sideboard will help you a lot as well.

We also just need to learn how to mulligan to the right cards at times...

_erbs_

11-17-2008, 12:16 AM

f|i[p] and i where in that same tournament but i finished with a 2-3 record, the meta was black - discard/control/aggro & affinity a few combos which f|i[p] had played against lucky dude hahaha joke f|i[p].

1st or 2nd turn thoughtsize and extirpate hurts alot and almost cripples the decks defenses.

well just for me but having 2-3 exalted angel / battlegrace angel / or any creatures would be great than having magus and mishra alone.

Skeggi

11-17-2008, 06:44 AM

;293715']It is quite hard to play vs. single creatures with equipment as they get around ghostly prison.
The idea of Ajani is that you keep tapping this creature until Ajani hits 7 Loyalty and then blows all his land; then Ghostly Prison is effective :wink:. Still, 9th place is not that bad :smile:.

;293715']
Round 1 Angel stompy
G1
I draw 7, I draw 5 lands 2 armageddons, I have no Idea why I didnt mulligan here, I thought it was not such a bad match up...I draw into more lands... I lose.
Stompy decks in general I always find a tough match because they don't have problems with Chalice or Trinisphere, and use double lands and Moxes themselves, so they also recover from an Armageddon pretty fast. They also only need 1 creature to seal the deal and are therefor not hindered that much by Ghostly Prison.

;293715']
G3
I start with a god hand, and since I am starting, I put down chalice for zero, put down city of traitors, and then chalice for 1. He smiles and thinks he is doomed but maybe he can still go around it. He plays a land then passes. Next turn I drop a trinisphere. He scoops.
I think he hoped he could have Echoing Truthed your Chalices. When Trinisphere dropped, it wouldn't matter :smile:. Well done :wink:.

;293715']Pithing needle is quite important to the deck, defense grids could probably be cut to 2.
I think you're right about Pithing Needle though, it's awesome. So much better than Suppression Field that also screws your Wastelands and Mishra's Factories. If you're keeping the red splash you may want to consider Boil (http://magiccards.info/tp/en/165.html) (more and more decks these days play blue). It's more versatile than Defense Grid, and really fits the gameplan (Trinisphere + Defense Grid =/= combo).

It seems you have had quite some mana problems. What I usually do is shuffle extensively, after that I check if the mana is nicely spread throughout the deck. If it's still all piled up I shuffle some more extensively. If it looks ok, I shuffle a bit and hand my deck to my opponent so he/she can cut it. In general this avoids getting screwed or flooded. But sometimes I'm lazy and I forget, and then I can end up being screwed or flooded.

@Lammina: In aggro meta's I've found Windborn Muse to be shot down at first sight, but she's worth a try at least. If your meta indeed is so insanely aggro, you may indeed want to conside Wrath of God; however I use Powder Kegs myself.

f|i[p]

11-17-2008, 09:15 AM

@ skeggi

9th place isn't that bad, but there were a few matches where I think I could have won if I wasn't mana screwed.. Hahaha you just don't get to get over those matches or well I may call it play mistake since I probably should have made sure that my cards were shuffled very well.. But hence it was still fun to play..

Yes it will seem that stompy variants are a problem to this deck, specially those that rely on flying creatures...

P.Needles are very important in the sideboard indeed. S. fields are good for delaying but,P. needles would have just done so much better than S. field. I may replace S. fields entirely.

As for the red splash, I was actually looking to sideboard boil, but I did the splash last minute and borrowed some ajani's and tried to look for some boil's which I thought I had, but didn't eventually.

Not I'm not sure what the red splash had to offer, yet.. and I'm not convinced but it was quite good to be slightly different from other stax lists .. Maybe I'll try a different color next time around...I'm still crossing my fingers for Wb stax...

Mordel

11-17-2008, 05:09 PM

I think the red splash is worth a longer look than just splashing for vengeants and then leaving it at that...then again I just tried to think of good red cards to maybe include and drew a blank.

On the topic of prisons versus ensnaring bridges: I always thought that allowing your opponent to make decisions in many cases allows for more errors to be made on their part and greater advantage than forcing their hand. Needless to say though something is missing from 'geddon stax because while the deck seems to show up a decent amount according to deckcheck anyway and puts out commendable finishes, but not nearly enough first places, something needs to be fixed. Maybe some sort of splash is what is needed. Bridge could be the answer too maybe, but it seems like too simple of a solution.

I noticed that a list that placed sixth runs two Elspeths. Did he do up a report anywhere?

DeathScythe

11-17-2008, 06:26 PM

I noticed that a list that placed sixth runs two Elspeths. Did he do up a report anywhere?

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=290465&postcount=930
lost track on my sideboarding though, shouldn't have touched the beer...

Mordel

11-17-2008, 06:39 PM

Heh, thanks for the link. I already read that report, but I must have had a few drinks when I read it or something because I failed to connect the dots.

Liquor and decks that require patience don't combine well in my experience either, though stimulants do strangely enough...weird.

f|i[p]

11-17-2008, 11:20 PM

A splash may always be worth testing all the time. I'm not sure, I seem to be always looking for a more lock oriented but at the same time be able to finish the games in time.

As for ensnaring bridge, it has its pro's and con's. You'll have to sacrifice the early game for a better late game. It will give you problems with goblins maybe even elves as well as empty the warrens . With it you will also be more vulnerable to artifact hate, since most red decks always have a shattering spree in the sideboard. One more thing I don't like about bridge is that you are kinda forced to over commit with your hand. Means you'll have to put everything down as fast as you can.

Ghostly will save you from swarm aggro but not from singleton creatures.

I still think ghostly prison is a safer way to go about it still...but It can also be a metagame call.

Skeggi

11-18-2008, 03:32 AM

At the Dutch Championships someone played a Stax build with Elspeth + Humility. Apparently that worked good (he didn't top8 though). I'll try and get a hand on the list.

Eldariel

11-18-2008, 03:53 AM

The player seems to have been Mr. Sebastiaan or something to that effect. Dr.Doom here posted his tournament report in the FS thread and seemed to have played against Elspeth Geddon Stax round 1.

Skeggi

11-18-2008, 05:07 AM

No, the player with the deck I'm referring to is called Marcel I think.

Edit: I checked, the player was Marcel Gelissen and had an Elspeth-Humility-Replenish build. Seems very interesting. I still need to get a decklist...

Mordel

11-18-2008, 07:48 PM

That list sounds pretty interesting based on that description for sure.

With the whole Bridge versus Prison thing, I don't really think it is an all or nothing sort of situation. Obviously ring has more applications than just stopping creatures, but for anecdotal purposes: a lot of guys run three of them...drop them for bridges and you are running bridges and prisons, which is absolute overkill, but still, this will make the deck in some matches have effectively six to eight prisons and in others you will have some fodder for stacks in the worst case scenario.

I wasn't really ever considering removing prisons. The problem this archetype might be facing is enthusiasts's resistance to change. Time and testing will tell I suppose.

_erbs_

11-18-2008, 11:25 PM

Hello,
Yesterday ive played against a dragon stompy deck, and i can't seem to win, does anybody has hard time winning against deck it while using geddonstax ?

If you don't draw anyspot removal cards like oblivion ring double strike creatures like rakdos pit dragon kills everything in its path and with no way to stop krosan grip oblivion ring is almost no use.

Does geddonstax have another ways to deal with decks that also uses the following cards:
- Mox Diamond / Chrome Mox
- Ancient Tomb / City of Traitors / Crystal Vein
- Trinishpere
- Chalice of the Void
- Decks that has a mana curve of 3 up that uses mana accelerants

thanks

dragzz

11-19-2008, 03:28 AM

It's really difficult for Armageddon Stax to handle single threats with huge churizos (Dreadnoughts, Tombstalkers, Goyfs and Dragons).

Dragon Stompy is particularly difficult because we have no lockpiece available that would be able to counter their strategy, our most common turn 1 play is useless against them and the only solution that we currently have is Oblivion Ring.

Your only chance is to try and stop early ass crackers (ie. Rakdos, Arcslogger, Raiders) via O-Ring or Chalice for 0. If your running Ajani or Elspeth they could probably prevent Rakdos and Raiders from doing lethal damage. Arcslogger on the other hand can only be handle by O-Ring. So what you need to do is aggressively mulligan for the right cards. If you'll be able to handle early threats then there is a good chance that you'll be able to establish board control. DStompy players usually exhaust their hands in the first few turns, so you need to concentrate on surviving those turns.

BTW, your talking about DStompy with a green splash?

_erbs_

11-19-2008, 03:52 AM

Skeggi

11-19-2008, 05:18 AM

I've played a fair share against Dragon Stompy, it's one of my teammate's favourite deck. I've also won a fair share. The key is to side out all Trinispheres and Chalices. You really don't need them in this MU. You should side in anything that could help; Tabernacle if you have it, Suppression Field (against Jitte and Rakdos Pit Dragon), Oblivion Rings, Exalted Angels, even Moats help. Whatever you have it's probably better than Trinisphere or Chalice.

One other thing I've found out about the Humility-Elspeth-Replenish build: it's creatureless. But I guess that was to be expected with Humility :smile:.

f|i[p]

11-19-2008, 07:03 AM

I never played against dragon stompy players so I really wouldn't have an idea. Although in all match ups.. single pumped up creature decks; you would like an ideal hand, meaning you would want to establish a real fast lock via smokestack or delay the game enough for you to establish board control. Other than that it will be hard quite hard to win because there is always a way around ghostly prison...

I'm actually very interested in the build with humility in it, I want to focus more on the lock, meaning taking off the angels and focusing on prison instead...Meaning really serving the decks main purpose which is prison...

The only problem I find in focusing on the lock is finishing on time...

Skeggi

11-19-2008, 08:15 AM

I still haven't recieved Marcel's list, but I have contacted him via e-mail. If I were to make a Humility-Elspeth-Replenish build it would look something like this:

Dutch Stax (I feel it branches out from the Armageddon Stax archetype and creates a new one; since I basically stole the concept from a fellow Dutchman, I guess Dutch Stax would be most politically correct :wink:)

Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantments
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds

Sorceries
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish

Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
7 Plains

Obviously, this deck would have extra vulnerability versus Krosan Grip and Gaddock Teeg; a possible sideboard could look like this:

Sideboard
3 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg (possible Teeg Killer)
2 Boil
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Replenish (post Grip reviver)

A slightly different build:
Dutch Stax (with Moats)

Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Enchantments
3 Moat
3 Humility
4 Oblivion Ring

Artifacts
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crucible of Worlds

Sorceries
4 Armageddon
1 Ravages of War
1 Replenish

Lands
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Kor Haven
3 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plateau
7 Plains

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Powder Keg (possible Teeg Killer)
3 Boil
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Replenish (post Grip reviver)

Ideas? Please shoot :smile: