[Deck] Legacy Breakfast

[Cire]

After getting into a discussion on the Breakfast of old, I was thinking of making this deck in legacy. Its a 2 card combo deck, that costs 3 mana, so it's slightly less broken than flash in that regard. Problem though is that it can run only a limited amount of tutors and controll, due to the nature of the combo.

My build so far without a sideboard:

4 Nomad En-kor
4 Cephalid illusionist
4 Narcomeoba
4 Elvish spirit guide
4 Simian spirit guide
1 Suttered ghoul

4 Shuko
4 Worldly tutor
4 Daze
4 Lotus petal
3 Chain of vapor
3 Brainstorm
2 Cabal therapy
1 Bridge from below
1 Dragon breath
1 Dread return

4 Flooded strand
4 island
2 U/W dual
2 U/B dual

Its fairly consistent, dealing with chalice 1 and leyline is pretty easy. The only trouble with this deck is of course with the lack of distruption. Breathweapon from the extended thread (on SCG) of this deck opted for a version with counter balance, but i don't think that it would fit this deck. A cool card that might fit into this deck would be

4 solitary confinment
1 Squee

That way you can stop aggro and decking yourself, but i can't find room for this and i still think the deck should focus on speed, besides it has 7 spots open for distruption and since the combo needs at least 2 cabal therapy, we can always use those as well.

[Illissius]

How do you plan to deal with Mogg Fanatic? Killing one half of the combo in response to you playing the other half is rough.

[BreathWeapon]

I've held off on posting about this for awhile, but I think that the Cephalid Illusionist combo is more degenerate than the Flash combo was regardless of whether or not the deck is built around the combo or not.

When I first started building the deck, I just used the Nomad En-Kor and Cephalid Illusionist in order to create a Fish deck with a combo finish that could turn the Goblins match up from being unfavorable to favorable.

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Meddling Mage
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sage of Epityr
4 Brainstorm
4 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Nomad En-Kor
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
17 Lands

SB
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Umezawa's Jitte

I'm not a fan of the Extended combo versions that use all of the superflous acceleration, because I don't think those decks can out race the other combo decks in this format or the hate, but just adding a combo finish into Fish is so wrong. You get all of the stopping power of Fish with the "Oops, I win" factor of the Cephalid Illusionist combo, and even Cephalid Illusionist and Nomad En-Kor aren't bad as blockers. Cephalid Illusionist can block a Tarmogoyf with its ability and a Nomad En-Kor can block a 1/1 goblin and the put the damage onto a Meddling Mage that's blocking a 2/2 goblin or a Nomad En-Kor and Sage of Epityr/Narcomoeba can block a 2/2 Goblin and you only lose one of your creatures out of the deal.

There's also a U/w/g version that's stronger against aggro along the lines of,

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Meddling Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Living Wish
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Nomad En-Kor
3 Cephalid Illusionist
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
18 Lands

SB
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Shaman En-Kor
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 True Believer
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Jotun Grunt
1 City of Brass
4 Umezawa's Jitte

and I think this is the critical test of the combo's actual degeneracy, because you still have a strong Fish base and all of those tutors let you combo off on demand.

Edit: @Illisius, Playing around Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator is really easy, the trick is to just cast another creature before you cast Nomad En-Kor, and then Nomad En-Kor can redirect the damage to the other creature.

[Cire]

I don't really like the living wish in your 2nd list. I just think it's too slow to be much use.

The cabal therapies and bridge from below are there, for when you draw into a combo peice, what will your lists do if it draws into them?

[nightshade81]

Here's what I have been testing;

4 Force of Will
4 Pact of Negation
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Portent
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Nomad En-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
17 Lands

[Cire]

nightshade81, what will you do if you draw a Narcomoeba and a combo piece? you wont be abel to go off... that's why Bridge from below is needed in the deck since with out it theres so many useless hands.

[nightshade81]

If you draw both you combo off anyways. You have 2x Narcomoeba, Cephalid Illusionist, Nomad En-Kor in play, that is 4 creatures. You then Therapy yourself for the combo peice and then cast Dread Return.

[BreathWeapon]

I don't really like the living wish in your 2nd list. I just think it's too slow to be much use.

The cabal therapies and bridge from below are there, for when you draw into a combo peice, what will your lists do if it draws into them?

If Living Wish seems too slow it's because I forgot there's suppose be one Nomad En-Kor in the SB for turn three Living Wish + Nomad En-Kor, and you can replace it with one Cabal Therapy in the MD, if you feel as tho' Brainstorm isn't enough to shuffle back your combo pieces.

You also want some form of removal against Meddling Mage, Man o' War Jellyfish is pretty good.

I average turn three wins with the U/w/g list, so the combo is definitely fast enough to race aggro by itself, and Force of Will and Daze just make it down right unfair.

This thing is probably going to rip up our format for awhile.

[Illissius]

If you draw combo pieces you can usually just Therapy yourself with an extra Moeba.

BreathWeapon: In your Fishlike lists that works, but the original post didn't have very many besides the combo pieces themselves.

My current list is fairly close to Nightshade's, but I'm still perplexed by the Fanatic problem. You could run Shamans en-Kor for the two toughness, but the extra mana sucks, and it might give them time to get Incinerators online.

The card all of you are missing is Aether Vial. Also, you could have Riftstone Portal plus flashback removal in the side to deal with random problematic permanents which aren't graveyard hate. (Solitary Confinement and whatnot.)

[BreathWeapon]

The U/w/g list still has Meddling Mage and Narcomoeba to protect the combo from Mogg Fanatic and Gempalm Incinerator, at which point I think Meddling Mage naming Mogg Fanatic is enough to put their removal out of commission altogether and Narcomoeba backed up with Force of Will can be about as good. You can just overwhelm the opponent with combo pieces and tutors if neither of those options are available and treat their removal as counter spells.

I wasn't a fan of Aether Vial when I tried it, it's worthless against Goblins because Wasteland and Rishadan Port aren't a problem to begin with and it presents them with a target for their Tin Street Hooligans, altho' it's a reasonable SB card against control and aggro-control if you want to SB out lands.

The Flashback removal sounds solid.

[nightshade81]

Relevant Flashback cards:
Acorn Harvest - 1G 3 life; 2 Tokens - Replacing Narcomoeba with one card at the cost of mana? I don't think it's worth it.
Ancient Grudge - G; destroy artifact
Cabal Therapy - Obvious
Crippling Fatigue - 1B 3 life; Target -2/-2
Dread return - Obvious
Ray of Revelation - G; destroy enchantment

Current SB:
4 Æther Vial
1 Crippling Fatigue
4 Absolute Law
3 Pithing Needle
3 Disrupt

[BreathWeapon]

Put a little time into those Aether Vials, and I think in a control and aggro-control meta those things are worth running over Daze. A lot of the time Daze is important for countering their Meddling Mages, but Aether Vial does present a counter target for them and it does circumvent Meddling Mage. I still think Daze is a lot better against Goblins and combo, but combo is getting to the point where it doesn't give a shit about Daze any way, and you stomp aggro regardless.

[Cire]

1 ancient grudge in the deck would be pretty good actually, destroying any artifact that prevents from going off like ensnaring bridge ect.

Aethervial doesn't seam like it'll be that good, out creatures cost low enough to just play, unless of course we do go in the direction Breathweapon wants, and make this a fish-like deck.

[nightshade81]

After testing the Aggro-Control match-up I'm sold on MD Æther Vial. And I have liked the additional Therapies over Pact's because of Swords. We play enough creatures to drop an excess kill condition or Narcomoeba to get a Flashback pre-combo also. Another card that might be played is Orim's Chant but I haven't like it too much in testing, and It's similar to Pact being only useful the turn you plan to go off.

Current List:
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Street Wraith
4 Nomad En-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
3 Æther Vial
16 Lands

SB:
1 Æther Vial
1 Crippling Fatigue
4 Absolute Law
3 Pithing Needle
3 Disrupt
1 Wipe Away
2 Echoing Truth

[Cire]

nightshade81 you must at least run 1 chain of vapor, your deck has no way of getting rid of turn 0 leyline. Im still not sold for MD aethervial, SB mabey, but not MD, the deck needs to run cards that deals with permenants and spells that prevent us going off.. I would replace the MD aether vials with Daze's.

[BreathWeapon]

Daze isn't good against Crypt or Needle, and Aether Vial deals with Meddling Mage, so there isn't really any reason to use Daze other than to protect yourself from discard and kill Goblins, at which point Misdirection may be the better choice.

@Nightshade,

Is there a reason you're using the Flash skeleton? The green tutors are just better than Lim Dul's Vault in almost all of the cases I can think of.

[Illissius]

@Nightshade,

Is there a reason you're using the Flash skeleton? The green tutors are just better than Lim Dul's Vault in almost all of the cases I can think of.

They can't find a bounce spell (or whatever else), and they force you to splash a fourth color. Vault can also find both of your combo pieces at once in many cases. Obviously, the green tutors have other advantages, but they're not "better... in almost all of the cases I can think of".

[Wobbles The Goose]

a Fish deck with a combo finish


This is the most interesting list in my opinion. If there is things that Sadin's winning deck at the GP shows other then how horribly broken Flash was, it's the strenght of having a back up plan to the combo fizzling and that Top/Counterbalance is amazing.

However, I do have a few questions. First, is white really that needed? In BW's list, it's used for Nomads and Meddling Mage, both of which are fine cards, but neither is really essential. Cutting the white does more then just improve the mana base, it also means that you are replacing Nomads with Shuko. It's a move that I believe opens a new area in the deck design: Including Trinket mage.

Trinket mage is already good in some fishy builds, and certainly seems exciting here. It means that you can maindeck Counterbalance/Top for one. Consider the following list:

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalence
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Confidant
3 Trinket Mage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
4 Brainstorm
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Shuko
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
3 Chrome Mox
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Island
1 Swamp

Some of those numbers are probably wrong, but the general gist is there. Really, the goal is probably to have a build that doesn't just scoop to the copious graveyard hate everyone is playing.

[BreathWeapon]

Using Living Wish and Worldly Tutor don't require four colors, they require three colors, and I think either being half the cost, not costing you a top deck and being able to find cards that Lim Dul's Vault can't in the SB definitely makes them superior in most cases.

@Wobbles

The problem with Shuko is that it doesn't protect the Illusionist from Goblin removal with another creature on the board like Nomad can, and Trinket Mage is worse than the green tutors. They also open you up to artifact removal, and they can't really attack/block or do anything else by themselves.

You're actually describing my Extended version of this deck almost card for card, you can check it out on the SCG forums.

[nightshade81]

nightshade81 you must at least run 1 chain of vapor, your deck has no way of getting rid of turn 0 leyline. Im still not sold for MD aethervial, SB mabey, but not MD, the deck needs to run cards that deals with permenants and spells that prevent us going off.. I would replace the MD aether vials with Daze's.

Who play's MD Leyline? If you’re talking about Iggpy Pop please don't get me started on that match up. My only true fears MD are Pithing Needle & Meddling Mage. Vials get around the Mages as long as they name incorrectly. So shortly after I posted I moved to one Crippling Fatigue MD so I had outs to Mage either way. Pithing Needle being the only other hate MD, since absolutely no one in my meta (besides me, maybe AngryTroll) has ever MD Pithing Needle I really don't worry about it.

Although I might remove, the Crippling Fatigue for 1 Wipe Away & 1 Echoing Truth or maybe even 2 Echoing Truth because ETW combo.


Is there a reason you're using the Flash skeleton? The green tutors are just better than Lim Dul's Vault in almost all of the cases I can think of.

To be honest I'm on the boarder I think both are creditable. What pushes me over the edge towards black is the disruption it offers. Therapy and Duress are worth the splash alone. The more I play Therapy the more I play it the more I like it in the deck. Throwing extra combo pieces/Narcomoeba for flashback has been really good also.

Lim-Dul's Vault is seriously in its league of it's own. It gets whatever you need and then some. Generally get what you need, one disruption spell, and some draw.

I do like Living Wish because of the versatility it offers and it really temps me. The only down side being it requires 3 MD combo pieces instead of 4 and requires SB slots, all worth while concessions. I never really got the argument that this was too slow while choosing Lim Dul’s over it, they cost the same and it doesn’t provide card disadvantage. Meaning, it’s not slower, actually it’s technically faster.

But in the end I think the black discard is worth the splash.

@Shuko - I like the idea of dropping white but with my current list I don't think it's optimal. The main reason because of Therapy and Æther Vial. I do think a list with Shuko is viable, but not sold on Wobbles for many reasons.

First I think the three ideas behind your deck and separate:
- Shuko
- Transform to aggro-control
- Counterbalence & Sensei's Divining Top

I'm not against any of these three because I find them all powerful tools/ideas.

First - Shuko, I think it's a feasible way to take the deck but I'm personally not mainly because of Æther Vial. Seocondly because I like having crits to get flashback Therapy. Third because of what Breathweapons said. Having uncounterable way to win is too cool to pass up (or practically because after you combo you therapy to let the Dredge Returns resolve).

Second - Transform to aggro-control, I think this is also feasible but seriously when are you going to do this? When they are playing against aggro-control? I think you are ill equip to win an aggro-control mirror because you lack any sort of meat. You do have powerful tools at your disposal such as Dark Confidant & Counterbalence/Top; that's enough to fight through counters and combo but not enough to kill the opponent without comboing. If you want to make this a serous option you need to board in 4-8 creatures being Dryad & Goyf and possibly Jitte. I'm not trying to say your deck is bad against aggro-control, but I am saying is it needs work if you actually want to turn into aggro-control.

Third - Counterbalence & Sensei's Divining Top, this is a powerful tool to which I have been testing various implantations into my current list. I think there are much testing to be done with variations including these two cards, and I wouldn't be surprised if a final list included them or at least in the SB. Plus in your list I really don't see the need for 4 Tops especially with Trinket Mages.

In the end your list also lacks an efficient means to find Cephalid Illusionist against aggro.

Current List:
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Street Wraith
4 Nomad En-Kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
1 Crippling Fatigue
2 Æther Vial
16 Land

[Cire]

This was just a random idea I had: leyline of lifeforce, since our combo is made of only creatures, it'll make the entire combo counterless so you wont have to worry about daze/force, and nightshade81 if your going to run aether vial why only 2 MD?

[BreathWeapon]

Black is good, but I'm not certain black is good enough to exclude green. Black gives Lim Dul's Vault, Dark Confidant, Duress and Cabal Therapy, where green gives Living Wish and Worldly Tutor, at which point Misdirection, Daze, Meddling Mage and Orim's Chant can all pick up the slack.

Balance/Top just seems stupid good, I think I'm going to mess around with adding that into the U/w/g version over Worldly Tutor and Daze/Aether Vial.

[nightshade81]

This was just a random idea I had: leyline of lifeforce, since our combo is made of only creatures, it'll make the entire combo counterless so you wont have to worry about daze/force, and nightshade81 if your going to run aether vial why only 2 MD?

Well it's kind of complicated actually why I don't run 4. The main reason is that they are only usefully against decks with counters. And eventually you're going to fight a counter war with your opponent anyways over Swords anyways. If they didn't counter your creature because you Vialed it in then they will save the counter that would have hit the creature for the Duress/Therapy that we have. So sometimes I feel Vials are actually a form of card disadvantage. But this only happens when they do actually have the Swords in their hand which happens more often then not. So I only want to see one Vial a game at max and I can Tutor for them if it's really necessary.


Onto different subjects:

Here is a list I have been playing around with

Mana:18
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
5 Forest

Spells: 19
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Living Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
3 Orim's Chant
1 Dread Return

Creatures: 23
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

3 Nomad En-Kor
3 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Genesis
1 Anger
1 Indrik Stomphowler
1 Spore Frog
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Shivan Wurm

And here's another

Mana:18
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Savannah
5 Forest

Spells: 22
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Living Wish
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
4 Orim's Chant
1 Dread Return
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Creatures: 20
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Werebear
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary

3 Nomad En-Kor
3 Cephalid Illusionist
2 Eternal Witness
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Anger
1 Shivan Wurm

If you want to become aggro-control I think Survival of the Fittest is the way to go. Both these decks are filled with must counters and overwhelm aggro-control very easily. The match-up game one is around 65-35 in your favor (testing with them not having MD Pithing Needle). I'm not sure this is 100% way to take the deck but it definitely has some power to it. It is severely less equipped to deal with combo though. With a low blue count of a mere 11 I don't think FoW will make the final cut hampering it even further. Unfortunately Shivan Wurm is almost required because of the lack of power in creatures ran to make Sutured Ghoul lethal.

I personally like the second list better without the million random 1'ofs and running Jitte.

@BreathWeapon - try Eladamri's Call over Worldly Tutor and see how that works for you.

Edit: currently working on a 5 color Survival of the Fittest list, black for diruption. Not happy with how well it's doing.

Second Edit: I meant to say preliminary test did 65-35 I only tested 15 games with the second Survival list winning 10.

[BreathWeapon]

Survival of the Fittest seems good if not slow, I wonder if Aether Vial and Survival of the Fittest wouldn't be busted together since Aether Vial is recouperating the mana from Survival of the Fittest. You don't need half of that stuff for Survival if you're just using it as a 2x tutor instead of an entire engine.

Edit: Eladmri's Call seems ok, I'm not certain it's better than Worldly Tutor, but it's definitely not bad. Worldly Tutor is pretty good with Counterbalance tho', and 1cc makes the deck faster and gives it a better curve.

[Cire]

Okay, in the attempt to make this deck more fish like I took heed from hanni-fish. Here's my latest list

4 Meddling mage
4 Dark confidant
4 Cephalid illusionist
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noman en-kor
3 Trinket mage
2 Narcomoeba
1 Suttered ghoul

4 Force of will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensies diving top
2 Cabal therapy
2 Aether Vial
1 Dragon breath
1 Dread return
1 Shuko

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Chrome Mox
1 Vault of whispers
1 Ancient den
1 Swamp

Well thats the list, I'm still working on the sideboard. The list runs pretty well, playing a defensive game with counterbalance/top and mother of runes till it gets the combo and all of a sudden wins.

[nightshade81]

Cire I like your more recent list more but I would still make the following changes:

-1 Sensei's Divining Top
-1 Counterbalance
-3 Mother of Runes/MM/ÆtherVial some mix
+2 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Æther Spellbomb
+2 Cabal Therapy

Since you get Therapy flashbacks with all the creatures you have it's very worth it to run 4.

I have been trying to work on a UBG splash W list for a little bit too. Here's what I came up with. It also can have a conversion SB but I don't think I'm into that for this deck. I like the 4 Absolute Law's and Pithing Needles SB.

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Shuko
2 Krosan Tusker
2 Morphling
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath

18 Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Last night at a turney I ran my current UBW list to a 3-0-1 splitting with Chris (Volt). Beating R/G Gofy Sligh, Kobol Tendrils, & B/G Rock/Truffle Shuffle. I played the games out with Chris, playing MeatHooks, and I lost. They were close games though.

BTW there is another combo where you don't have to run crits to support Ghoul. You'd run Lightning Greaves instead of Shuko, one Brawn/Wonder instead of Dragon's Breath, and Psychatog as the kill.

EDIT: You will all be pleased to know I have won a game in test with Krosan Tusker. Although I didn't cast, just cycled it and then happened to have Dread Return in my hand. Still a kill with Krosan Tusker is a kill with Krosan Tusker.

[BreathWeapon]

You can do the Tog kill with just Anger and Wonder, to avoid a three card combo. Instead of Absolute Law, a lot of Extended people use Living Wish into Crimson Acolyte.

[Illissius]

Lightning Greaves only works if you have another creature in play. You can't reequip it to a single one because it's untargetable.

[nightshade81]

Crimson Acolyte is a good idea but not so hot for me. Against Gobos I really only get one activation out of my white mana then it's ported/wasted for the rest of the game if they are smart players.

Too bad Anger involves a splash into the worst of the 5-colors for this combo.

EDIT: @Illissius, right I'm dumb... sorry bout that, it costed more mana anyways.

[BreathWeapon]

The Tog kill isn't worth it tho', it's the same number of cards as the Ghoul kill and just using 3/4 Nomad En-Kor, 3/4 Cephalid Illusionist, 4 Narcomoeba, 4 Street Wraith is enough to make the Ghoul lethal. Those are all cards I'd use regardless of whether or not I was going to use the Ghoul kill any way, so why would you really bother with Tog?

[Cire]

Well after taking nightshade81 advice, I tested and decided on this list


- Octopus (lol like fish but not :laugh: )
4 Meddling mage
4 Dark confidant
4 Cephalid illusionist
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noman en-kor
3 Trinket mage
2 Narcomoeba
1 Suttered ghoul

4 Force of will
4 Counterbalance
3 Sensies diving top
2 Cabal therapy
2 Aether Vial
2 Jitte
1 Dragon breath
1 Dread return
1 Shuko

4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Chrome Mox
1 Vault of whispers
1 Ancient den
1 Swamp

Not many changes, but it plays very well. My only concern is that some games you can't even get the combo, yet you can win anyway with Mother of Rune-protected jitte weilding madman; or just controll the games with MM and counterbalance. Now for the sideboard im thinking of some bounce spells, pithing needle, enginered explosives, Chalice, or some other cool "trinkets".

The deck Still needs help against other faster more consistent combo like belcher, TES and SI. This deck could of had as fast of a goldfish, but I like this controll build better. Now we just need to improve that matchup. Stiffel? Sphere of resistance?

[CalebD]

Cire's list looks really good, very fishy. I went the oppossite way with the deck, making it more threshy.

// Lands
2 [MR] Island
3 [A] Underground Sea
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

// Creatures
4 [TO] Cephalid Illusionist
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [SH] Nomads en-Kor
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt <3!
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba

// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
1 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [NE] Daze
1 [SC] Dragon Breath
2 [OD] Predict (Narcomoeba!)
4 [IA] Portent

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault (boarded in for consistency vs. aggro)
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

Fudge, I forgot FoW. I'm tired, I'll mess with it tomorrow. I mean... I meant to leave them out for Bob...

One problem with Cire's build is having enough creatures for Dread Return+Therapy flashbacks. As is, two combo critters+two narcomoeba = one return and a therapy flashback. If a smart player is paying attention he'll use his removal in response to your therapy flashback, and you'll be short a creature to combo out with. With that in mind, I'd up the Narcomoeba count to 3. Don't forget they can always be pitched!

Aside from that, Cire's build seems better to me right now, as people might mistakenly (yet correctly) board in crypts against my build G2 thinking that I'm thresh if they see the portent/predict engine. Tricking your opponents into boarding in the correct hate is frownz.

Plus Mother of Runes is some awesome combo protection. I wish I'd thought of that.

EE, if put in your sb, should probably come in blind every 2nd game anyway (for some anti-crypt action.) I'd just leave a copy in the MD, the card is solid.

Those Survival lists look very interesting as well, I really like that Anger is already an integral part of the deck. Almost tempts me to play with Survivals. Almost.

[Cire]

You are correct in the fact that not having enough creatures for dread return could be a problem (enough creatures I'm comeing to understand means 4, 1 for cabal therapy, 3 for dread. MM and mother of runes takes care of creature kill, so does counterbalance and Force) but its not that much of a problem.

Jotun Grunt looks like a cool card that I might consider, and adding green for more creature search and ***** creatures could be a good idea.

Right now Im working on the sideboard and this is it so far.

4 Stiffel - against fast combo, this decks worst matchup.
3 Enginered explosives - just a good card all around in almost every matchup
3 Pithing needel - against combo decks like CRET belcher and other and other anoying permenants
3 Echoing truth - Against leyline and goblin tokens.
2 Serra avenger - Finisher against decks that your combo has no chance in hell of going off

So far my sideboard strategy is if i win game 1, which this deck suprisingly does fairly often, to keep the deck as if for game 2 to see what they bring in against this deck and in game 3 if i lost game 2 to sideboard acordingly. This deck reminds me of goblins slightly in the fact that it seams like an aggro/controll/combo deck.

Edit- My game against ***** hasn't been as good as expected, im thinking of adding Spectral Lynx into the Md since IMO it'll help greatly against ***** and other aggro controll decks.

Mabey

-1 Dark Confidant
-1 Counter Balance
+2 Spectral Lynx

And fix the mana base to provide a little bit more white.

[Illissius]

I don't know; somehow, having a bunch of 1/1 critters for :1::u: in the deck already does not inspire me to turn it into a hybrid version of Fish, because 1/1 critters for two mana are, well, bad. Do you seriously expect to win by attacking with them? You can win by attacking with Invitationalists and other good creatures, sure, but the level of synergy with your existing cards is not terribly high, and so I doubt the wisdom of adding them, lest you become a bad combo deck and a bad Fish deck. Of course, you can take advantage of the fact that you happen to have creatures in your deck in many other clever ways, like Cabal Therapy and Aether Vial.

My biggest problem with the combo right now is its vulnerability to instant speed removal, which is abundant in Legacy thanks to our good friends the Goblins. The advantage of the deck would ideally lie in the fact that you have a very compact and inexpensive combo, much like Flash, and can spend the rest of the deck on finding and protecting it. You could run enough to disruption to match or overpower opposing decks. But the moment every instant speed removal spell in your opponent's deck becomes effective disruption against you, this becomes a hell of a lot more difficult to achieve. You have the advantageous capability of being able to target the Illusionist infinite times with your Random en-Kor in response to removal if both of them are in play, but therein lies the rub: you have to play one of them before the other, and at that point you are very vulnerable. (This is another reason I'm a fan of Vial, because it at least lets you take maximal advantage of lapses in your opponent's guard). If you could somehow get them into play simultaneously, or stop your opponent from moving until you play the second, you would be golden, but thus far I haven't found a way to do this which isn't more mana and effort than the combo itself.

[Cire]

I get what your trying to say, but I do have mother of runes and aether vial (trinket mage to get vial) to protect the combo during that said "vulnerable" period. The deck doesn't really play as a bad version of fish, but I see how adding lynxs could do that and how the Sideboard appears to look like a transformational fish board.

Let's take my previous build without the lynx's or jitte's and lets call that the base build of this deck if were not running green which is still up in the air. What would you change in that said deck, to make it more "compact." Running more cabal therapy and vial?

[Illissius]

My reply wasn't meant as a response to your list or anyone's in particular, only musing about the state and direction of the deck in general. To amend my previous post, while I don't think attacking with 1/1s for two mana is a viable alternate route to victory, it is true that they can carry a Jitte, and I suppose that might be.

Running Mother of Runes could very well be the correct choice, but the essence of my problem is that it's necessary. If we could find a way to be immune to those cards by default, it would be superfluous, and those slots could be better spent on answering the rest of the opponent's disruption. It's simple math: If the opponent has 10 ways to disrupt spells and 10 ways to kill creatures, and you can spend 15 slots on dealing with this (numbers conjured out of thin air with no basis in reality), if you only care about the former half, you can outnumber them 3:2; otherwise, you get outnumbered yourself. The deck would be much stronger if it didn't have to worry about removal. It's very possible that this is, uh, not possible, in which case it's likely best to run ways to explicitly deal with the removal; but then I'm not sure that this is the best combo to run. (Which is unfortunate, because it's the most card- and mana efficient one I currently know of).

[nightshade81]

I completely agree with Illissius. The focus of this and any combo in general is to A) find the combo B) protect it C) back up plan. In that order of priority. Most of your list Cire have been in the order C-B-A, which in inverse of traditional combo, and most likely an inferior plan. Most combo completely ignore C. There truly isn't a need for it.

Like Illissius said 1/1 don't win you games. I wrote about this on post 20 page 1.

Onto other things:
To be honest I would really like other people to test the 4 color list it is incredibally strong. I really think it's the way to take the deck. It has a preboard fish matchup of 60-40, and it gets a little worse post SB to around 55-45, worse if they bring in more then 6 cards.

They deck can either play as control or as combo and it does both rather well. Less so as Control. You really only play this way against black and blue. Black actually being the worst matchup. It's kind of like playing that one Landstill Severance Blecher that did well a while back. You just play the hand you were given to the best of your abilities.

Here's my current list
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Noman en-kor
2 Krosan Tusker
2 Morphling
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath

19 Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB:
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Shaman En-Kor
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 City of Brass
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Gigapede
4 Absolute Law
3 Pithing Needle/Krosan Grip ~ must stop Counterbalance top

I know it's 17 card but I'm not sure what to cut. I sometimes want Maze of Ithe SB too when in controlish mode. Also Crimson Acolyte.

SB plan for fish is -1 Narcomoeba, -1 Lim-Dul's Vault , -1 Cabal Therapy
+2 Gigapede +1 City of Brass

Some MD thoughts also have been -2 Morphing +1 Krosan Tusker +1 Cabal Therapy, and that’s really tempting. BTW Volrath's Stronghold + Krosan Tusker = draw engine, and I have considered Volrath's Stronghold main also.

I would like some input on this version if anyone is willing.

[Illissius]

Has anyone tested the Goblins matchup? That should really be the first priority, I think, I mean you're a fricking combo deck after all. However, Wastes, Ports, Fanatics, and Incinerators, backed by a massive clock, seem like they could present significant obstacles.

nightshade81: The Tuskers and Morphlings seem very out of place in the maindeck, even if the Deeds are pretty cool. What was your reasoning there? You can always Living WIsh for something if you feel the need to go control in the first game. Nineteen lands doesn't seem like enough to support Morphlings either (even if you have Tuskers and Wishes).

[BreathWeapon]

The Krosan Tuskers are Sutured Ghoul food that can be cycled when their drawn, but I think Krosan Tuskers are horrible in comparison to Street Wraith.

Morphling is just garbage.

I think dropping below 4 Narcomoeba is a mistake, I win most of the game post board against Tormod's Crypt by milling my deck any way just for the 4 Narcomoba against aggro-control and control.

[Cire]

My version Illissius is pretty good against goblins, but you and nightshade81 are right in the fact that it seems my deck is Fish 1st and combo 2nd. I still think that mother of runes/ vial desrve a place in this deck because of how they protect your combo

Now let's say that (assume) that

4 Mother of runes
3 Aether vial

would protect your combo from removal and the actual combo requires these cards

4 Nomad en-kor
4 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
2 Cabal therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath

- Oh and as a response to BreathWeapon i think that the 4th Narcomoeba takes up a spot that can be used on something more useful, it's easy to combo off with only 3 Narcomoebas in your deck, and against controll, just by getting 3 Narcomoebas into play is just as effective (although slower) as getting 4 Narcomoebas into play.

Anyway from the cards I just listed thats 23 cards. Which means the rest of the cards (37) should just be lands/search/draw/protection/ and mabey mana accel.

Right now im just testing nightshade81's list and I'm running into the exact problem Illissius's mentioned with removal, thats why i think that mother of runes/slyvan safekeeper (although with the keeper you'll need to play the nomad first) and aether vial deserve a place in the deck regardless of if were taking this deck into a fish direction or what seams to be a truffel shuffel direction.

----------------

Edit - I don't want to double post but heres the list I'm using now that focuses on protecting and finding the combo, It has a backup plan with enternal dragon which also pumps ghoul.

4 Street Wraith
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Cephalid illusionist
3 Narcomeoba
3 Nomad En-kor
2 Mother of Runes
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Suttered ghoul
-21

4 Leyline of life force
4 Aether Vial
3 Worldly tutor
2 Living wish
2 Cabal therapy
2 Shuko
1 Dragon breath
1 Dread return
-19

16 Lands
4 Crome mox
-20

I understand that Sylvan Safekeeper on the illusionist would stop the combo, but the plan with Sylvan Safekeeper is to play Nomad or shuko first, protect the Nomad, combo off, then protect the ghoul.

Leyline of life force is extreamly helpful in stoping not only counter spells but chalice as well.
I'm still testing this list but any suggestions are welcome. And of course the sideboard still needs help building and the mana base needs to be done as well.

[Cire]

May I bump this up to get comments on my latest list that I edited in into my last post?

[BreathWeapon]

The problem I have with Leyline of The Lifeforce and Aether Vial is that they just focus your opponent's counters on your other cards. All of a sudden you start losing your Brainstorms and Living Wishes instead of your creatures. That's still better than letting the opponent counter your creature after a tutor, but it's not worth dedicating 8 slots to.

I still think cutting Narcomoebas is a mistake, the difference is two turns vs your opponent, and that's a lot of time.

[Cire]

Aether vial is never truely useless. But the Leyline could be a dead card turns 2 & 3... What would you take out for that 4th Narcomoeba and other cards to protect your combo?

Also how would you build my mana base... so far i have, for my build above:

4 W/g fetch
3 W/g dual
2 U/w fetch
2 U/g dual
2 U/w dual
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

I didn't want to weaken the mana base jsut to be abel to hard cast my 2 cabal therapies/

[nightshade81]

You don't have brainstorm. That makes me not even want to read anything else you have to say. I'm not trying to insult you but any list without Brainstorm is inferior. And that's a fact.

Your second biggest problem with your current list is the mana base. You have 24 cards dedicated to it for a 3 mana combo.

16 Lands
4 Chrome Mox
4 Æther Vial

You can actually run this entire deck off 17 land proved by Flash. So personally I think you are wasting nearly two playsets of cards that could be used to help draw/protect the combo. You’re also doing it at the cost of card advantage (Chrome Mox)

For my UBW build I ran 16 Land 2 Æther Vial, or 15 land and 4 Æther Vial. Counting Vial as 1/2 a mana each.

I also don't see how your list has better protection from removal, I have

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed (for perminate based removall)

to your
3 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Mother of Runes

And I have more and better draw to find them.



Although I do like Sylvan Safekeeper 10x more then Mother of Runes. In this deck Mother of Runes is a crappy duress that only hits removal. It has two slight perks being it hits Goblins removal, and can chump block. But the first time it chump blocks it's going to get removed, essentially against Thres a crappy duress + fog. Against control it makes WoG not dead also. I don't think it has a place in the majority of the builds.

I do think Sylvan Safekeeper has a spot in many versions of the deck. Because it turns off all of your opponents removal.

EDIT:

Sorry in a copy/paste I didn't realized I left off the last section:

I don't have a problem with a Leyline of The Lifeforce and Æther Vial version. I think it's a viable idea. But I think bigger focus needs to be on protection and search. Like BreathWeapon control players switch roles and hit all search spells instead of creatures. So you need more.

Here's something I threw together no testing just intuition.

4 Brainstorm
2 Street Wraith
4 Living Wish
4 Worldly Tutor
3 Nomad En-Kor
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
2 Benevolent Bodyguard
4 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Mother of Runes
4 Leyline of life force
4 Aether Vial
15 Lands

The deck kind of targets the opponents removal saying I have more anti-removal and my combo is therefor uncounterable. But it has weaknesses is again the fact the tutors are counterable. It's an interesting approach, and I think it has inevitability.

Double Edit:
I realized shortly after posting that in this version Therapy is required, since all they have to do is counter Dread Return. So the above list is still really rough, but in all honesty I don't think it's the right way to take the deck.

[Cire]

thanks nightshade81 for your comments, I do agree that brainstorm is good but I couldn't find room for it. On your list I like it very much, except it needs cabal therapy to work. I think were on the right track.

For thouse 2 extra spaces i suggest 1 living wish/1 wordly tutor

-Edit: I forgot..for protection from pithing needle your list also needs 1-2 shuko, and a way (well cheaper way) to deal with chalice @ 1 other than leyline and living wish --> harmonic sliver

-Double edit to go with nightshade81's double edit: why would this be the wrong way to take the deck, an countarable, protected, 3 mana, 2 card combo seems good to me. This direction seems stronger than that U/B/x ones simply because green is good against counters and it provides the tutoring...

Perhaps if we add some black after we play with the numbers ect, like why does your list need 4 mother of runes with the bodygaurd/safekeeper/ and vial in the deck? I'll post a list after i test a little bit with the above version.

[BreathWeapon]

You don't need an answer to Pithing Needle in the SB, you just tutor for an alternate En-Kor and win.

[nightshade81]

I'm curious BreathWeapon what is your current GWU build? Does it still have Counterbalance and how are the matchups?

[Cire]

Wouldn't it be just cheaper to run shuko maindeck?...sure you can run Another En-kor Sideboard, but thought it be better to run 1 shuko main deck and 1 trinket mage sideboard. That way you could tutor for the mage to get the shuko (just 1 mana more) but you can also fetch aether vial, mana (we just need to put artifact lands back into the deck), top (which we can play instead of brainstorm or together with it)...or other goodies...but the mian point, you still have that shuko main deck to randomly draw and oops you win.

I understand though you point was in the sideboard En-Kor > harmonic sliver, its just that my plan although 1 mana more has many other interactions.

edit: yeah Breathweapon, do you still run counterbalance, since I can no longer find 8 slots for the engine?

[BreathWeapon]

This is the list I'm using, ATM

4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Living Wish
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Street Wraith
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Nomad En-Kor
4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath
1 Cabal Therapy
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB

1 Nomad En-Kor
1 Shaman En-Kor
1 Cepahalid Illusionist
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Meddling Mage
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Crimson Acolyte
1 Exalted Angel/Jotun Grunt
1 City of Brass
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydro Blast

Favorable match ups are against combo, aggro-control and control thanks to Balance/Top, Goblins and other aggro decks depend on the amount of their removal pre/post SB but I think it's favorable in general, and B/w and B/r are definitely the worst match ups I've found so far. I tend to tool randomness by virtue of being a ridiculously fast and consistent combo deck with a full array of control elements.

I pull the Balance/Therapy for Blasts against Goblins. I've never wished for the City of Brass as far as I can recall, so I'm probably going to cut it for the extra alternate win condition.

This deck is pretty sick, I'm not certain I can even justify playing Storm combo over it any more.

[nightshade81]

I completely agree with you about how powerful this deck is. I'm actually very surprised few people have picked this up. It has all the same positive matchups as TES but has a better aggro-control/control match-up to a significant degree. I think it might have to do with you and me being the black sheep of combo.

I do like your list but I'm still not anywhere near being sold on it. I do think it's the best Counterbalance/Top list posted on this thread though.

The main reason is to compare the protection

I have:
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed

To your:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance

I have 14 must-counters to your 8. I have found that to be a drastic improvement when fighting aggro-control. I know I said I had a 60-40 matchup but honestly it's a lot higher. I just said that so people would believe my numbers.

And Counterbalance Top is a 2 card combo that you only have Brainstorm to help you find, and if they counter it your in trouble. My 14 can be used independently. Although Therapy is generally slightly worse blind, (against control it always goes for Force/Swords so if they don't have it your golden anyways) but is also gets flashbacks.

One huge advantage that Counterbalance/Top has is the fact once it resolves the game is over. But I don't think this justifies having less protection and requiring a 2 card combo.

Alright we have about the same odds of me getting Duress + Therapy and you getting Counterbalance + Top. If our opponent has 2 counterspells I am able to fight through them and possible take down 3 with a flashback. You on the other had get your Counterbalance countered then attempt to combo and are stifled.

Overall you do have a better draw machine with the additional Top's but to be honest it's only marginally better, because I have Lim-Dul's Vault.

Current List:

4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Noman en-kor
2 Krosan Tusker
1 Gigapede
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Crippling Fatigue
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath

19 Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Tundra
2 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp

SB:
1 Cephalid Illusionist
1 Shaman En-Kor
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Bone Shredder
1 Crimson Acolyte
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 City of Brass
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
2 Gigapede
4 Absolute Law

How have you been liking Blue Elemental Blast? I haven't like them because of 4 Gempalm Incinerator 4 Goblin Matron. Although you can hit Matrons while they are on the stack.

Goblins is favored, it only becomes unfavored when they have 8+ SB hate. I have had them SB in 3 Tormod's Crypt and 4 Blasts and it’s generally not a problem.

[BreathWeapon]

I agree to an extent, but Balance/Top isn't so much disruption as it is a win condition in and of itself, once Balance/Top resolves the game is over. Balance isn't ineffective when its with out Top either, I still have Brainstorm and Worldly Tutor to abuse it.

That said, I'm not sold on Balance/Top, because despite being awesome against aggro-control, combo and Zoo esq aggro, I think a competent Goblins pilot is going to exploit it with Goblin Matrons and Ringleader finding Mogg Fanatics and Gempalm Incinerators and Aether Vial on one turning all of their removal into instant speed and uncounterable.

I think I'm going back to Meddling Mage and Dazes, because Meddling Mage is an under appreciated corner stone of the deck. You Worldly Tutor for Meddling Mage to prevent Swords to Plowshares, you cast Meddling Mage to prevent Mogg Fanatic and then use him to protect Nomad En-Kor from Gempalm Incinerator, and Combo folds like a cheap tent when you can cast multiple Meddling Mages and True Believer thanks to the green tutors. The additional power/toughness also lets you completely disregard your opponent's board state, and with Crimson Acolyte you can just turn into aggro-control with a reasonable clock. Daze is just randomly good against aggro, discard based aggro-control and control.

I definitely feel more comfortable with the Fish list than the Balance/Top list against Goblins, altho' I do miss the ridiculously easy wins I get from Balance/Top. I'm probably going to end up with Meddling Mage and Aether Vial, because Aether Vial has been a tremendous counter target for my opponent and helps protect the manabase from Goblins and Suicide.

So, I think I'm going with the above list - Counterbalance, - Sensei's Divining Top for + Meddling Mage, + Aether Vial and then I'm going to add an answer to the board for opposing Meddling Mages (Man o' War Jellyfish is solid) and replace the blasts with Umezawa's Jittes.

I'm not certain what the reason is for this deck not catching on, because it's all over Extended right now and people were testing versions of it before Flash was un-erratad.
This deck isn't as good as Flash was as a combo deck, but this deck is better than Flash was as a control deck. All in all I'm stomping the format with it, and if it remains below the radar that's fine with me.

[Cire]

As of now my list is still going in the direction of Abusing safekeeper/leyline. It just seems that an uncounterable/ and protected combo seems like a more powerful approach than just force of wills..ect. Because leyline and safekeeper provide virtual card advantage much like chalice does in sun tower.

I too like meddling mage over counterbalance since I've been finding UU hard to cast. And I was alsao displeased at force of will because my other blue card just always happened to be a brainstorm/illusionist

my list so far

4 Street Wraith
4 Meddling mage
4 Benevolent Bodyguard
4 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
2 Nomad En-Kor
1 Sutured Ghoul

4 Brainstorm
4 Living Wish
4 Worldly Tutor
4 Leyline of life force
4 Aether Vial
1 Shuko
1 Dragon's Breath
1 cABAL THERAPY
1 Dread Return

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

My sideboard is pretty much identical to Breathweapon's except for some minor changes

4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Nomad En-Kor
1 Shaman En-Kor
1 Cepahalid Illusionist
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Man-o'-War
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Crimson Acolyte
1 Exalted Angel
1 True believer
1 Hydro Blast

[nightshade81]

@Cire
1 Therapy is not enough for your list, all your opponent has to do to beat you is have 2 counters, or one Counterspell while you name FoW.

Mother of Runes is close enough to being strictly better then Benevolent Bodyguard, so why aren't running it?

Even if do have the additional Shuko run the full 3 Nomad En-Kor. It's your combo you want as much of it as possible.

@Meddling Mage - I haven't been too impressed with it in testing, as a wish target I would run Mesmeric Fiend over it. But in testing I haven't found myself wanting them more then what I currently have in the SB. I can easily see a 1+ MD to tutored by Worldly Tutor though, turning Worldly into a potential disruption card.

@Daze - I miss them a lot when facing black. My mana base is really bad and they, especially B/w, really eat it alive. Although all around I still find my Black disruption suit better.

I agree that stepping away from Counterbalance/top is a better overall plan.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm never all that concerned with being disrupted, and therefore using disruption to counter act that disruption, but just disrupting the opponent's game plan to give the combo time to fall into place. Meddling Mage does an awesome job of this, because he's one of the best disruption pieces against combo and fishes out the opponent's removal.

I just run enough disruption to be certain the opponent can't goldfish me out of the game, not enough disruption to guarantee that the combo resolves. You have so much threat density that just forcing them to exhaust all of their disruption on your combo pieces can easily leave them in a position where Jotun Grunt goes in for the win.

You sort of have to step back from the premise of "I'm the beat down" to "Oops, I'm the beat down." It's not like Flash where half of the deck is garbage, albeit highly synergistic garbage, you can afford to take your time and draw cards off the top of your deck.

[nightshade81]

I'm never all that concerned with being disrupted, and therefore using disruption to counter act that disruption, but just disrupting the opponent's game plan to give the combo time to fall into place. Meddling Mage does an awesome job of this, because he's one of the best disruption pieces against combo and fishes out the opponent's removal.

I just run enough disruption to be certain the opponent can't goldfish me out of the game, not enough disruption to guarantee that the combo resolves. You have so much threat density that just forcing them to exhaust all of their disruption on your combo pieces can easily leave them in a position where Jotun Grunt goes in for the win.

Deed > Meddling Mage, Deed does everything you just said but better. (accept draw removal)



You sort of have to step back from the premise of "I'm the beat down" to "Oops, I'm the beat down." It's not like Flash where half of the deck is garbage, albeit highly synergistic garbage, you can afford to take your time and draw cards off the top of your deck.

Alright I think your mistaking how I play my version of the deck. I'm hardly ever the beat down. Generally rule when fighting aggro-control is I'm the control deck. I have more "counters" and more draw/tutors then they do. Only with a god hand do I go crazy and combo out as soon as possible and that’s around 25%ish percent of the time. The game generally goes long (longer then normal) and I can get an opening after a Duress/Therapy around turn 8 or so and win then. That's generally how I win. That or getting Gigapede online and beating face; Threshold and all aggro-contol bow to that card.

[BreathWeapon]

To be honest, I don't see what Pernicious Deed is even for. Pernicious Deed doesn't do a thing against the decks that combo faster than this deck, 3cc isn't even reliable against Empty the Warrens, and it's like using a cannon to kill a Masquito against a Mogg Fanatic and it's worthless against Gempalm Incinerator.

You need another creature on the board in order to be able to cast Nomad En-Kor, redirect the damage from a Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator etc to that creature and then play the Cephallid Illusionist. With out those intermediary creatures, Goblins becomes a BBS deck with the most insane clock ever.

You can beat aggro-control and control no problem, but Goblins and Red Death are where the real trouble is. I'm getting to the point where I want/need to cut Worldly Tutor to add Daze, because those match ups are so bad against opponent's who understand what their role is. You have serious problems when the Goblins player just keeps his Aether Vial on one for his Mogg Fanatics, because he can tap the Vial in response to a Cabal Therapy and resolve him thru' your counter wall.

I'm seriously not joking when I say that Goblins is literally a control deck in this match up with the most heinous clock ever.

[nightshade81]

My general plan for Goblins game one is to tutor up Deed turns 1/2, cast Deed turn 3. Blow Deed EoT unless they have lethal on the board but they generally don't to not over extend for the Deed. Then win on turn 5.

Deed does counter Gempalm Incinerator. You just have to hit the whole board.

Post SB I have the same plan but this time I get Absolute Law.

As an aside - why are you arguing against my Goblins matchup when your Counterbalance/Top list couldn't have been better. Deed/Therapy better then Counterbalance vs. Goblins.

But your right this match is closer then aggro-control by a long shot, but it's still favorable.

Yes I understand that Red Death is a horrible matchup. But that’s it, only one archetype, being black, gives us trouble. Actually B/w is worse because Vindicate hits my land and my version is especially acceptable to land disruption. But this is true for any combo deck, black is just trump.

There are only two real ways for combo to beat black, that's either combo consistently turn one CRET Belcher/SI or be Iggy Pop. Iggy can top deck Mystical Tutor or IGG and win anytime midgame.

I mean we have it better off then most combo because our win conditions cannot be hit by Duress, but that's about it.

EDIT: I meant to say turn 5

Double EDIT: Since I didn't want to double post,

@Cire try this:
-2 Street Wraith
-4 Benevolent Bodyguard
-1 Shuko

+1 Nomad En-Kor
+3 Shaman En-Kor
+1 Cabal Therapy
+3 Mother of Runes

I think it will work a lot better for you

[BreathWeapon]

I can see Pernicious Deed as a singleton reset button with Lim Dul's Vault, but I can't see it as a cornerstone of the deck when Goblins is going to be using Wasteland and Rishadan Port to tap down the mana base and that mana base consists of 19 lands.

I never argued that the Balance/Top list had a good game against Goblins, that's the entire reason I abandoned Balance/Top and went back to Meddling Mage.

I'm still using the list on the second page and not getting favorable games against Goblins post board. Wasteland and Rishadan Port are a serious problem for a 4c mana base and Pyrokinesis, Red Elemental Blast and Swords to Plowshares are another set of counters. I suggest two fisting the match up post board in order to determine the match up for yourself, it's really easy to beat Goblins when they aren't prepared for the deck, but it's another thing when you're actually in the driver's seat.

I don't think that list is bad, altho' I think both Morphling and Krosan Tuskers are garbage and Street Wraith is an automatic 4x, it's just that I think that a prepared Goblins opponent is going to be able to exploit the manabase (you should definitely add a Shuko to get around Rishadan Port on White) and the absence of another creature means you have to use your disruption to stop the opponent from stopping you instead of using your disruption to stop the opponent from killing you.

Edit: I actually think I would replace Nomad En-Kor with Shuko and a Shoreline Ranger after looking at it closer.

The closer the list I'm using gets to Fish, the better match ups I seem to have against Goblins and Suicide. I seem to be beating combo, aggro-control and control hand over fist, so I'm going to keep heading in that direction until I feel the Goblins and Suicide match is comfortable.

[nightshade81]

Pyrokinesis, Red Elemental Blast and Swords to Plowshares are another set of counters.

I said this earlier,


Goblins is favored, it only becomes unfavored when they have 8+ SB hate. I have had them SB in 3 Tormod's Crypt and 4 Blasts and it’s generally not a problem.

And I hold to that. I have tested a variation of SB cards for goblins in different amounts. If they only board in 7 cards I'm still favored in general. At around 8-10 it becomes slightly unfavored, but still close about 45-55.

Post SB I still have a really great shot because I have 7 silver bullets that pretty much stop everything. Absolute Law stops all Goblins removal, which is huge, and Deed which also stops all Goblins removal and hits any permanents they can bring in. All you have to do is draw one of these 7 cards with Brainstorm and Lim-Dul's Vault (not terribly hard), cast it, and win. This is not a difficult plan. If Goblins boards 10+ cards their clock is significantly hindered allowing me more time to do the above.

If they do the Port/Wasteland they are hurting their development and generally that’s ok with me. I focus on making land drops every turn to out race their lando strategy. If they have Lackey/Vail online and multiple Port/Wasteland congratulations that is why Goblins is Tier one, because of the crazy synergy it has. Any semi control deck/control deck looses at that point, including any list you have made. This accounts for the majority of Goblins wins, that’s exactly how they do it.

Something off topic, but related - in my UWB I boarded in 3 Pithing Needles and 4 Absolute Law, and that seemed to help significantly. Pithing Needle turns off Goblins removal, Crypt, and Port/Wasteland.

My current board for Goblins is
-4 Duress
-1 Gigapede
-1 Crippling Fatigue
for:
+1 Volrath's Stronghold
+1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
+4 Absolute Law

Sometimes you need Duress back in so you board back in the land and run with 2. depends on what they bring in.

I mean I didn't build mine to go like 70 - 30 against goblins. It not an autowin. I wanted to autowin to be aggro-control.

The whole point of Krosan Tusker, Gigapedes and Morphlings are for the aggro-control match. Krosan Tuskers are super Street Wraith is this match providing you card advantage and guarantee a land drop. Which this is the match where getting to 5 mana matters a lot. The whole deck is designed for that matchup. There is an alternative win in the form of Maze of Ith + Gigapede. Your opponent needs at least 4+ creatures on the table to beat that. 5 being the minimum without a Counterspell and 4 with. Asking for 5 meat creatures is asking for half of what they have in the deck. It’s kind of like assembling Counterbalance/Top in that your opponent just can’t win anymore. Next objective is to resolve Deed, and then Gigapede can start swinging. You can also wreck their deck with Volrath's Stronghold. There are just so many ways you can play around them it’s ridiculous. You just really have to play you each hand you get the best you can. Switching between combo and control accordingly.

During this whole battle for board position I can win anytime. My must counters are staggeringly high. They should not let either Living Wish or Lim-Dul’s resolve. Lim-Dul’s stacks my deck to say, “Your going to win in 3-2-1 turns.” Living Wish gets Volrath's Stronghold which says “eat all of my counters,” so it too has to be countered. All of my disruption goes 1-for-1 with counters and my combo also needs to be counters. Once you see an opening with Duress/Therapy you win. You very easily overwhelm them.

Also note that even though I’m trying to reach a higher mana base you always hold back that fifth land drop. I see people make this mistake all the time when playing aggro-control. If you draw a land congrats, you drew a land, now play a land and your in the same game state as last turn. If you draw FoW again now make the land drop. You can make the land drop any time you need the land from your hand. With this deck if you draw Lim-Dul’s you search your library for a pile with 3 good cards and a Brainstorm. Draw Brainstorm, cast it, put two lands that you’ve been holding back, and break a fetch. Now you have a significant advantage in card quality. So that is how this deck get it’s Fact or Fictions. Almost never try to play Krosan Tusker, it wastes too much resources. Generally at 6 mana I never play another mana. This is actually took me away from Morphing is that it took generally 7 mana to cast it, when I’m starting to hold back land drops at 4 land. Gigapede curves more nicely with only holding back at 4.

Your right about Krosan Tusker, Gigapedes and Morphlings being bad against Goblins, I would much rather prefer Street Wraith. But like I said is tweaked to beat aggro-control not Goblins. If I wanted to make an anti-goblins version I would, but as it stands I like were my goblin is at, and I love where my aggro-control and combo matchup is at.


To be honest, I don't see what Pernicious Deed is even for. Pernicious Deed doesn't do a thing against the decks that combo faster than this deck, 3cc isn't even reliable against Empty the Warrens, and it's like using a cannon to kill a Masquito against a Mogg Fanatic and it's worthless against Gempalm Incinerator.

If you can’t see what Pernicious Deed is for, then I really don’t know what to say. It’s just one of those really broken cards that in time, you realize is freaking ridiculous. I would but it in the top ten most powerful cards in the format (not counting land). To be honest the main reason I splash green, is for this card.

And your wrong about it not being good against fast combo. The only time it isn’t good against them is when they are on the play, and make 10 or more tokens turn one. Which no version of this deck has an out too besides Force of Will. Every other instance of them using ETW, Deed will be able to sweep a portion of the damage.

Deed is broken, you just have to accept it.

[BreathWeapon]

I'll answer the rest of that in detail later, but there isn't a single combo deck that is going to cast ETW for less than 5 storm in the case of R/g Belcher and TES when it uses Ill Gotten Gains/Diminishing Returns, Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens or follows up with Burning Wish -> Goblin War Strike when their on the play, and if their smart they'll get 10 storm on the draw or find another win conditon. TES doesn't even have to use it to kill you, because they can either go straight to the Tendrils plan and imprint it on Chrome Mox or 3 storm to do 12 damage on the play and then plan to finish you off with a Tendrils if the tokens don't go the distance. I've made a living off of punishing people who think 3cc cards can consistently stop combo, you may steal a game if you win the coin flip game 1 and they walk into it, but game 2/3 you can't count on the card at all.

I understand Pernicious Deed is a powerful card and I'd probably have access to them some where, but a card being Powerful isn't necessary justification for it being included in a deck at 3x.

I still think the mana base and Goblins are a problem, you have nothing that really stands in front of Goblin Lackey, so they're free to Rishadan Port your white source. I'd really replace Nomad En-Kor with Shuko, you're not benefiting from other creatures in the deck any way, and it takes so much pressure off your mana base.

You'll probably end up going your way, and I'll probably end up going mine. Flash was the same way for most people.

[nightshade81]

I do think you might be right about the mana base and Shuko. My first list was like that, but I went away from it because of wanting Therapy flashbacks and the use of Crimson Acolyte. It seemed to do about the same with Goblins actually. The added benefit of Crimson Acolyte is what made up a slightly higher win percentage, but the deck also lost many games to mana screw to goblins also. So it’s kind of a trade off and I have leaned towards want more creatures for Therapy flash backs. It’s another part of how to beat control.

From post #26


4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Living Wish
3 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Shuko
2 Krosan Tusker
2 Morphling
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Dragon's Breath

18 Land
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp


I would make the following change of
-2 Morpling
+1 Bayu
+1 Gigapede

Btw I’m back to not running Crippling Fatigue.

So yeah I was on that same train of thought when I first started out, and I’m still kind of in the middle about it.

On Pernicious Deed vs fast combo I still completely disagree with you. Your argument is equivalent to saying “Duress is bad vs. combo”. Pernicious Deed only doesn’t work when they are on the play and have the first turn combo. You do realize almost nothing stops that right? Only Force of Will. Daze doesn’t, Duress, Therapy, anything. At any other time Pernicious Deed becomes useful, just like Duress. If I’m on the play he combo first turn for 14, I still live at 6. But the odds are he’s not going to be able to combo on turn one on the draw anyways. I think I pack more turn one disruption then Threshold. This only make Deed more relevant, the more time I by.

[Cire]

Well Nightshade81 I like bodyguard>mother becomes it comes online the turn its played instead of the turn afterwards..

On meddling mage....gah way to slow, anyway the decks that we need to shore up on; are B/w, red death and goblins.

Black is a problem only if they sinkhole/hymn you, duress not being a problem and hypie/vindicate being to slow unless theres a dark ritual involved.

Red death is just evil. The same problem as we have against goblins (fast clock and lots of removal). Safekeeper and bodygaurd are good against this and so is vial, thats why I personally think my build is the best, or some version of it, Lol.

Another problem my build is running into is the lack of lands. Some times i just wish for some mox/spirit guides and even more lands, mabey to Wish/play creature or just lay down leyline. Basicly I want my mana base to suport 4 mana by turn 4 which I'm guessing is around 24 mana, so far i only 15 lands 4 vial so around 17 mana, I need around 7 more mana sources which I have no room for so Im In a fix.

I just noticed how weird this debate is going..All three of us are going in three diffrent directions with the same deck. Do you think we will ever settel on one list?...

[BreathWeapon]

The point is if Pernicious Deed is useful 50% of the time against combo and not useful 50% of the time against combo, where Engineered Explosives is useful 100% of the time against combo and is just as devastating against aggro-control. Engineered Explosives is one turn faster, less mana intensive and can play around combo pieces.

[Cire]

Okay heres my latest list, As you can see i took most of the advide given to me by Nightshade81 and i also added Gigapeade so to not waste a creature to therapy myself and to play against controll if need be.


4 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Street Wraith
3 Cephalid Illusionist
3 Narcomoeba
3 Benevolent Bodyguard
3 Nomad En-Kor
2 shaman En-kor
2 Meddling mage
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 gigapeade

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
4 Aether Vial
3 daze
3 Living Wish
2 cabal therapy
2 Worldly Tutor
1 Dragon's Breath
1 Dread Return

4 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

SB//
4 Leyline of Lifeforce
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Nomad En-Kor
1 Cepahalid Illusionist
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Crimson Acolyte
1 True believer

I moved the leyline to the Sb since its useless again combo and aggro like goblins, but its still a house against controll and aggro/controll

Daze is back in style since, it and force of will make a good controll team to keep unwanted answers off the board. Addtionally shaman En-Kor MD make for another part of the combo and allows you to put 2 counters on vial with out worrying about puting a Nomad into play first. As I said before Bodygaurd > mother of runes because his effect comes into play 1 turn before mother.

Comments on this deck list are as always wanted.