[Deck] R/G Beats

[Nelis]

(This turned out to be a combination of a deck explanation and a tournament report. I hope I put it in the right forum. I do want tips so I figure its in the right one. If not, my apologies)

Hi. I'll start off my first post with a short introduction. I am a Dutch player and I have effectively been playing magic since Fallen Empires. I have never been a great player mainly because I am not always focussed/concentrated and I never seem to learn the rules beyond the basics. I do go to tournaments because I always have a good time and when I get to practice enough I do ok. I do not mind losing but I do want to win as much as possible.

I recently moved back to Holland from Ireland and I decided to go to to a local Legacy tournament. I played Goblins as usual but it wasn't a great success. I decided to look for another deck to play. Since I am not that good a player I looked for another aggressive deck. I found the following decklist below on Starcitygames. It was piloted to a 6th place.

Maindeck:

Creatures:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Scab-clan Mauler
4 Wild Mongrel

Instants
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning

Basic Lands
4 Mountain

Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Naturalize
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Umezawa's Jitte

I liked the deck from the start because it's in my two favorite colors Red and Green (followed by white, then blue, then black). I did want to make a change at first, though.

I liked Tarmogoyf the minute I laid my eyes on it when the spoiler came out. I had made a standard Gruul deck including Tarmogoyf and I knew how good it could be. So I wanted to play Tarmogoyf. Without any testing I decided to replace Scab-Clan Mauler for I did not know if I could play them effectively as 3/3s on turn 2.

The next card I decided to cut was Magma Jet. I like the card a lot but I wanted to maximize the potential of Tarmogoyf. I changed them for Seal of Fire.

I also replaced Grim Lavamancer. I cant remember what I replaced it with. (a worse card anyway). I thought Grim Lavamancer would not combine with Tarmogoyf.

I wanted to include two Cursed Scrolls because I was a bit afraid of White weenie and its protection from red creatures. I also thought it would not stay long on the table so it would fuel my Tarmogoyfs a bit more.
I had to remove two cards to make room so I took out a Fireblast (you almost never want more than one in your hand.) and a Chain Lightning because it was a sorcery and I did not want to cut any of the other cards.

I did a little bit of testing with the deck which went good. But there were still a few cards I was not happy with.

I did not like the wild mongrel. I felt I had to discard good burn cards to keep it alive. I decided to change it and put in Scab-Clan Mauler again.

The original decklist did not include any forests which seemed stupid to me because of Wasteland. I figured it would seriously jeopardize the effect of Kird Apes bonus so I took out a Wasteland and replaced it with a forest.

I also had a chat with a former Dutch Champion (2005 I believe). He's without a doubt the best player in my area so I value his opinion. He said he would put back the Grim Lavamancers. And he also mentioned Skyshroud Elite. I had never heard of those cards but since I did not have them and the tournament would be in a few days I ignored that particular tip.

The day before the tournament I put the Lavamancers back in. I was able to borrow 4 Taigas and two Chained Lighning and I put in a Rift Bolt as the third Chain Lightning. (I know, bad choice) And I started to work on the sideboard.

I knew of one player playing solidarity. He's a member of this forum and pointed it out to me. I do not know his forum name but if he reads this he'll know. And I also expected mainly aggro and aggro control. I just ignored the solidarity match-up and took out 4 Pyrostatic Pillar. I figured it would be a small change to be paired against that deck. I simply decided to try and race that deck should I encounter it.

My main concern was about decks that included Counterbalance and Sensei’s Devining Top. I put in 3 Krosan Grip to battle these cards. I took out 3 Naturalize.

Since I was still afraid of white weenie and I never got the chance to play this specific card I put in two Anarchy.

I did not know how I would fare against threshold so I also put in two Tormod's Crypt. With the following decklist I went to battle.

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scab-Clan Mauler

Instants:
3 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire

Sorceries:
2 Chain Lightning
1 Rift Bolt (should be Chain Lightning)

Artifacts:
2 Cursed Scroll

Lands:
4 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills

Sideboard:
2 Anarchy
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Umezawa's Jitte

I went to the tournament and another thirteen players showed up. Below a short overview of my results. The results are not yet processed so maybe not everything is in the right chronological order. I have a bad memory for these kind of details and I did not make any notes.

Round 1, Solidarity
When the first pairings were up I could not believe it. I had to play solidarity! In match one I put on a lot of pressure but the inevitable happened. I wanted to go for the kill (on my turn 5 (i started)) but he went off. I just let him do his thing not really paying attention, not expecting to win anymore. But suddenly I heard him say “I made a mistake”. I actually won the first game.

For the next game I sideboarded in 4 Red Elemental blast. Again I went for the kill and again my opponent went of. I blasted a Reset and waited for the rest to come. Again he did his thing and this time he did not go off either. I could not believe it! My worst match-up and I won!
Result: 1-0

Round 2, Threshold
I lost the first match. I boarded in Krosan Grip because I was afraid of counterbalance/top. It never came. I also put in 2 Tormod’s Crypt. I took out 3 Chain Lightning and 2 Cursed Scroll because of the untargatability and p/t of his creatures. I put on a lot of pressure and I won the second match. I had not seen anything to use my Grips on but I was still afraid. So I kept them in.

Again I put on a lot of pressure and this time the Grips were useful because of an unexpected Vedalken Shackles! He was no match for my Tarmogoyfs though (he did not play them himself) so I won.
Result: 2-0

Round 3, White weenie.
I can be short about this one. I lost the first match again. The second match he was manascrewed and I had Jitte. The third match (if I recall correctly) he was able to match my creature output with limited mana sources. But he had to overextend himself and he ran into an Anarchy. Luckily I realized I had to be the control player in this match-up.
Result 3-0.

Round 4, Aluren combo.
Can’t remember the exact combo pieces. I basically lost this game (2-1 if I remember correctly). I could not get through his Wall of Roots. And he combo’ed out just on time all the time.

I did not know what to do sideboardwise. I just put in Jittes to make my creatures ‘bigger’ as to get through his walls but to no avail. Afterwards I realized that I also could play my creatures through Aluren. I don’t know if I would have won had I known. He did play Aluren two turns before he went off a couple of times.
Result 3-1.

Round 5, U/W Countertop Control
Another match-up I feared. I can’t remember all the details. I just put on too much pressure with my cheap creatures which he simply could not handle. He got an Engineered Explosives once but he could only activate it for 1 CC so my Tarmogoyf and Mauler survived. He also got Counterbalance/Top online once. I Krosan Gripped it but he had a Trinket Mage on top of his library so it got countered. (static ability?). When it was my turn again he was tapped out and in the danger zone when I played a Kird Ape. I expected him to draw a card with Sensei’s Top and then counter my Kird Ape. He did not do this. I did not show my surprise but I thought he was trying to fool me. So I played a Lightning bolt and again he did not react. I still had a Fireblast in my hand and he was on 3. I was afraid he would FoW it so I took some time to think. He asked if I had a Fireblast because he was getting impatient. I did not hear him say he did not have a Fow. So eventually he asked again if I had a Fireblast and I said yes. He scooped.
Result 4-1

Round 6 (final round) ********
Cant remember much of this game. Again I put on a lot of pressure which my opponent could not cope with. Tarmogoyf did the trick.
Result 5-1

I had actually won the tournament with a deck I hardly practiced with and against players I consider to better than me. I guess I have found my new favorite deck. I’d say its a great contender if you do not expect a lot of combo. I believe you can rush control decks because they’re simply too slow. A good sideboard is very important since I won most games 2-1 most of the time. The one adjustment to the deck I would make at this moment, is to take out the 2 Cursed Scrolls (I never really needed them) and replace them for 2 Skyshroud Elite. The strength of the deck is definitely the low mana curve.

I do think I have to make a few adjustments to the sideboard. That is where you guys come in.

Because Tarmogoyf is gaining more popularity one probably needs an answer. The only thing I can come up with is a splash white for Swords to Plowshares (putting in a Plateau for a mountain). But that would be a lot of lifegain. But doing so may also allow me to take out Anarchy because I can use STP combined with Jitte on those pesky pro-red creatures. But I’m not sure about that.

I’m also not sure if I have to leave in the Tormod’s Crypts. I never really needed them so I’m inclined to leave them out but I do not know how good they are against combo. Maybe I should include Pithing Needle instead? Works against Top/counterbalance too.

I think I should put in a forth Krosan Grip as well.

I also don’t know if I should continue to ignore combo decks like Solidarity and the likes or not. What do you guys think? I did read about the power of Empty the Warrens on this website so maybe a combination of Sandstorm and Scorched Winds in the Sideboard?

I do read as much as possible about Legacy but because I have hardly played any tournaments (I intend to change that as soon as I can afford to go beyond my own region) I am not aware of the strengths and weaknesses of the tier one decks like Ravager or Ichorid. I find it hard to think of these things in abstract terms so I really have to play against those decks to find out for myself. But since I haven't yet I hope you could help.

So if you have any tips in general on making this deck better. And tips against decks I have not mentioned it would also be very much appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

Niels

[Barook]

I don't want to ruin your fun and I'm really a big fan of R/G Beats, but you have to face it: Green sucks in the eternal formats due to total absence of viable disruption.

I don't see any reason why you run Green over White which gives you excellent gold cards in form of Goblin Legionnaire and Lightning Helix. Sure, Green gives you Kird Ape, Tarmogoyf (and Rancor, which you didn't run at all). However, White gives you Jotun Grunt which is a real beast against various decks and doesn't force you into running janky cards.
White gives you also additional combo hate in form of Orim's Chant (and Meddling Mage if you splash for Blue).

[Nelis]

I would have preferred to hear something else but I do not post a deck without accepting any critique.

I never thought of Rancor to be honest. Seems like an interesting choice.

I could of course splash white as well. Which cards in my list do you consider janky?

[Pale Moon FTW]

You should look at the deck called Zilla Stompy 2k6 (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3132). It's very similar but I think the more balanced mana curve makes it better.

[Nelis]

That's a very interesting deck indeed. I will follow that one as well. Thanx

But I still would like to hear improvements for this particular deck because I like it so much.

[Pale Moon FTW]

Seal of Fire should be taken out in favor of the 4th Chain Lightning and 3 Magma Jets. Also I think Rushwood Legate would be very effective in your meta (It's a 2/1 which is free if you control a forest and your opponent controls an island). You could take out Anarchy and Crypt to make room for it in the SB.

[Nelis]

I don't know if I like the legate that much. I'm not too fond of the 1 toughness. Its always 1 for 1 and will never survive. Might be good vs Solidarity though since I can play it for free. I suppose that's what you are thinking of.

I was actually thinking of taking out the three Chain Lightning and replace them with Rancor. It would give me an edge against other Tarmogoyfs and decks that happen to play walls and such.

The reason I like to keep the curve as low as possible is because I am not that good a player. This means I, for instance, prefer to play two 1 drops than 1 two drop. I am a firm believer of playing with those cards you feel most comfortable with Instead of playing with the best possible deck (or cards) but I will keep Magma Jet in mind.

There are a few other reasons I prefer Seal of Fire over Magma Jet:
1. It kills a Goblin Lackey on turn 1
2. It fuels my Tarmogoyf.
3. It enables me to effectively play a turn two Scab-Clan Mauler.

[honz]

I have been trying a deck that is almost exactly the same as this, and i have a few ideas for you...

Incinerate is TERRIBLE. i would run chain lightning over incinerate even though it is a sorcery. In that place, put 4x Fireblast. Fireblast is the best weapon this deck has.

Magma Jet is amazing, because of it's scry ability. In a deck with NO draw, this cannot be overlooked. It really helps to top-deck that one burn spell to finish the game.

This might be a small point, but you should run 2x Red Elemental Blast, and 2x Pyroblast (to avoid meddling mages, extirpates...etc).

I never liked SB jittes. I think that slot is used better by Pyrostatic pillar, as that is the only real combo hate in this color (plus krosan grip).

Goyf could be changed to Quiron Dryad, but i guess it is just personal preference....

Your creature base seems weak It should be around 20 creatures, and only about 12-14 burn. Here is what i run:
4 Kird Ape
4 Jungle Lion*
3 Tin Street Hooligan
3 Skyshroud Elite*
3 Blood Knight
3 Tarmogoyf / scrab-clan mauler / quiron dryad*

* - if you run dryad, make sure to use Mogg Fanatic, and Jackal Pup here.

Also, i compliment that with 3 Rancors, and 3 Genju of the Spires.

Genju is something i have been testing, with pretty good results. You might wanna give it a try, and see how it works for you. People seem to be really afraid of genju, it draws more hate than any other card in the deck.

I think the tormod's crypts are uneeded, but how have they been working out for you? Perhaps blood moon (magus of the moon), or Price of Progress is better in that slot?

Just a few suggestions, hope it helped...

[Jak]

Do not take out chain lightnings. They are just too good being 3 for 1. I would cut the cursed scrolls for 2 rancors. In an aggresive deck, scroll is just too slow when you want to be playing threats and burning the other player out. If I would ever make this deck, it would go like this.

Lands
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scab-Clan Mauler

Instants:
4 Fireblast
4 Incinerate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire

Sorceries:
4 Chain Lightning

Sideboard:
3 Krosan Grip
4 Pyroblast
4 REB
4 Umezawa's Jitte

[aisman132000]

this is the style of rg beats deck that i currently favor and i think it could be very successful. My version is very similar except i play wild mongrel instead of scab clan mauler. While mauler is great with bloodthirst (obv.) it can be a pain sometimes to set him up. Also he is a horrid top deck more often then not. Wild mongrel is a good dork that can help you force through some damage.

Also i'm not sure if i agree with your dropping of magma jet for seal of fire. Although i understand the synergy with goyf and mauler, the card selection that magma jet gives you is very important and can help set up burn to finish your opponent.

[Nelis]

That's a lot of interesting suggestions.

Everybody is basically saying I should run Magma Jet and that I should keep Chain Lightning and maybe add Rancor.

I suppose I could do the following:
-4 Incinerate
-2 Seal of Fire

+1 Chain Lightning
+4 Magma Jet
+1 Fireblast

I kinda like my creature choices so I will keep that configuration for the time being. But I do wonder if taking out two Seal of Fire will affect the effectiveness of Scab Clan Mauler.

It also seems to me I am making the deck a bit slower with these changes.

About some of those other suggestions:

Like I said in my first post I only played this deck for one tournament without much testing. But I do think I do not need the Tormod's Crypts.

I have been thinking of Price of Progress actually. It can deal anywhere between 4 to 8 damage which is quite a lot. So maybe I can indeed swap the Crypts for Price of Progress.

I actually had 2 REB and 2 Pyroblasts but I forgot to change that in the decklist. But I am actually thinking of taking them out the sideboard. I just don't feel comfortable trying to outsmart the control opponent. Id rather go for the suicide approach. That's why I have so many 1 drops. But then again, I will never get any better in playing magic if I keep playing like this. :)

Genju is not a bad idea either. If I would run it, I would put it in my sideboard since it seems most effective against control decks.

[Nelis]

A little update:

I played an eight person tournament yesterday and became third.The deck is very powerful because of the very fast start. There were only five rounds, though. I lost to Landstill and Red ********.

This is what I was playing:

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 WasteLand
4 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (19):
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Skyshroud Elite
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scab-Clan Mauler

Instants (9):
2 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries (4):
4 Chain Lightning

Enchantments (6):
3 Rancor
3 Seal of Fire

There are a few cards that I know people are missing in this deck:

Magma Jets. I also played a tournament a while ago and everything went wrong. I had magma Jets in that deck at the time but I did not have the feeling the scry made up for the 1 damage less compared to 3 damage spells. (not sure if this is proper English)

1 Fireblast. To me 3 Fireblasts is the right number. Drawing two is usually too much and I would rather have something else. With Wastelands and such around I hardly get to 4 mana. I am compensating it by playing Price of Progress which easily does six damage and a lot of times much more. I will actually add 1 more main as you will see in the list below

Now for the changes I will make when I will participate in the next tournament.

-3 Seal of Fire
I have actually decided to take out all Seal of Fires. Two damage is not enough. As for the synergy with Tarmogoyf. It happened a couple of times that my Rancors were being countered so I will have an enchantment in my grave a lot of times to fuel my tarmogoyfs.

+1 Price of Progress
This card is just too good to be true. The amount of damage it deals is amazing. It will also improve the landstill matchup which is quite tough.

+2 Skyshroud Elite
Its almost always 2/3 (especially in my metagame). Its Kird Ape 5-8 and very important.

Cards I am starting to have my doubts about but which I will leave in for now are the Mogg Fanatics. Although they are perfect 1 drops I am getting the feeling they are not important enough anymore. It helps that goblins are seldomly played in my metagame but even if I leave them out I have enough possibilities to stop a turn 1 lackey dead in its tracks. Should I decide to take them out the Maulers probably have to go too. Maybe I should add Wild Mongrels and Magma Jets instead. But if anyone has other options please let me know.

This will be the version I will be running next time.

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 WasteLand
4 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (19):
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scab-Clan Mauler

Instants (9):
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt

Sorceries (4):
4 Chain Lightning

Enchantments (6):
3 Rancor

I also like some input on my sideboard. This is what I was running:

4 Krosan Grip. vs Counterbalance / Top
3 Pithing Needle They are of course generally good but I need them especially for Belcher and other decks
3 Umezawa's Jitte. They give me the edge versus white weenie
3 Sulfuric Vortex. Metagame Call. I knew some people were running Pulse of the Fields which is a pain in the ass. I used them in two rounds yesterday And it killed me once :-(
2 Anarchy vs white weenie as well but I dont think I need them. Especially since i am playing two more Skyshrouds Elite which can block Silverknights

Cards that are not played in my meta but which I do fear are Chalice of the Void but I suppose Krosan Grip will do the job.

What sideboard cards are the best answers against Red ******** and Landstill? If anyone has some input it will be appreciated.

Niels

[zulander]

Lands (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Wasteland
4 Mountain
1 Forest

No matter how much you want to, you can't play 7 Wasteland. Sorry.

In my testing with seal of fire the card is great because of it's use at instant speed and the fact that you don't need to keep the mana open for it. If you were to take out the Lavamancer's for skyshroud elite I'd suggest playing 4 MD pyroclasm. All your creatures will be x/3 almost all the time and being able to sweep the board and swing in for the win is too good. Here's the list if I were to play R/G beats.

Mana: 19
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Stomping Grounds
2 Mountain
1 Forest

Beats: 23
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
4 Skyshroud Elite
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Scab Clan Mauler
3 Rancor

Burn: 18
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Pyroclasm
2 EE

Sideboard: 15
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Pyroblast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Jitte/REB/Pyro Pillar

I don't know if I'd run 3 Jitte's in the board since I'm running 3 Rancor's main. And since you have enough burn and large cheap creatures Jitte's aren't as effective IMHO. I could be entirely wrong though. 2 EE in the main helps if your opponent is playing chalice for 1/2 against you and it's a low enough count that it doesn't usually slow you down. If I were to splash a color for straight up beats it would most likely be black or white. Black gives you Negator and Dark Confidant(which is a little slow in a fast aggro deck) and Duress/Cabal Therapy in the board. White gives you Jotun Grunt and Lightning Helix with some SB Orim's chant vs combo and stp(which I doubt you need.)

[Nelis]

No matter how much you want to, you can't play 7 Wasteland. Sorry.

Whoops, 4 Windswept Heath and 3 Wastelands.

As for your other suggestions. I do not think Pyroclasm is that necessary. I put a lot of pressure on most aggro decks that I do not need to sweep. Most threats can be burned away for me to get enough damage through with my creatures.

Some part of me deep down wants to keep the Jittes in the sideboard because if my opponent would play Jittes I am screwed. But I've heard more people say that I could cut them. So maybe I will.

I have been thinking of white but because I want to keep playing with Tarmogoyf I don't think there's a place for Jotun Grunt in that case. This would basically leave me only with Lightning Helix and Orim's Chant side as a white options. I do not think it is worth it.

If I were to play with Engineered Explosives (interesting choice I must say) I would put in in the sideboard. Especially since I have not come across chalice (yet) in my metagame.

You're actually not playing any fireblasts at all?

[thefreakaccident]

creatures//20
4 goblin legionnaire
4 nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 werebear
4 savannah lions

spells//20
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 chain lightning
4 seal of fire
4 swords to plowshares

lands//20
3 wooded foothills
2 windswept heath
4 plateau
4 taiga
4 savannah
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains

this is the most recent varient of San Diego Zoo, it is extremely good for a mid ranged aggro deck.. it stomps other aggro & gives control a very tough time.

I am unsure as to what the sideboard looks like, but if I had to guess I would say.

4 null rod
4 pyrostatic pillar
4 krosan grip
3 Orim's chant

that's what mine would look like if I was playing it...

the deck's main quality is it's resiliancy... I guess that is it's main quality.

[DragoFireheart]

Here is my take on the Arch-Type R/B beats.

>Smashy <

Creatures:

4 Kird Ape
3 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Scab-Clan Mauler
4 Troll Ascetic


Non-Creatures:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rancor
4 Magma Jet
3 FireBlast

Lands:
6 Mountains
6 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills

1 Tomand's Crypt [graveyard hate]
3 Pyrostatic Pillar [storm hate]
2 Pithing Needles [general hate]
1 Leyline of the Void [graveyard hate]
4 Red Elemental Blast [control hate]
4 Krosan Grip [general hate]

I could in theory get a 3rd turn goldfish:

Cards in hand: Kird Ape, Rancor, Mogg, Taiga, Mountain / Taiga, Fireblast, Lightning Bolt. On turn 2 or 3 I draw into a 3-for-1 damage spell.

Turn 1: I cast Kird Ape. [20]
Turn 2: I cast rancor on Ape, Attack with Ape and cast mogg. [16]
Turn 3: Attack with Ape and Mogg. Mogg then sacs, I cast two 3-damage spells and Fireblast. [0]

I lack Call of the Herd so as of now I can not test it. [aside from using MWS].