[Brainstorming] Vial

[Phantom]

So, nearly everyone seems to agree that Aether Vial is one of the strongest cards in the format. It has been banned in formats previous, and breaks a pretty fundamental rule of magic. So why then, does only one deck abuse Vial?

(Quick aside: I know that some fish and even Sliver decks ave begun using Vial. From what I can tell, they are using Vial, not abusing it. Same goes for Affinity and most Survival builds. Anyway, this couldn't be less important.)

So for ways to abuse Vial I went directly to the best deck in the format. Goblins abuses Vial in two ways so far as I can tell: Land and Creatures. Vial (and probably to a lesser extent, Lackey) allows Goblins to run a fairly unstable land base that features 8 disruption cards, 4 Wasteland and 4 Port. Vial also allows Goblins to run a ton of creatures spread out along a healthy curve. Goblins may be the only aggro deck in the format that can actually run a 5cc beater.

Anyway, I tried to search out creatures that would fulfill functions as well as beat. Goblins has these in spades. Sadly, there is nothing even close Goblin Ringleader in shear power, but Dark Confidant is a decent draw engine, and Vial can almost guarantee you at least a card off him. I looked for other creatures that could abuse Vial. Pump creatures can take advantage of the man it frees up, and Vialing in FtK sounds alright to me.

Anyway, I threw together this list a few nights ago:

//Land (22)
6 Swamp
4 Waste
4 Port
4 Mire
4 Badlands

//Creatures (20)
4 Carnophange
4 Dark Confidant
4 Negator
3 Shade
3 Rotting Giant
2 Ftk

Spells (18)
2 Jitte
4 Sinkhole
4 Raze
4 Hymn
4 Vial

(originally the sinkholes were duress and the razes therapys but i thought the LD would compliment the mana base)

Looks pretty janky, right? Well it is. I haven't tweaked the list at all, and it needs some different creatures I would imagine (Negator was way too hit or miss to be a 4-of) and probably some cheaper removal, and Raze might not be Legacy quality, etc. etc.

But you know what? I tested it a bit against Threshold and the deck performed surprisingly well. I'm CERTAINLY not claiming that the deck is good, or even that you should play it. What I am saying, is that the structure of Vial + Waste + Port + Creatures that abuse Vial, is damn powerful.

Anyway, I'm looking for any one of these things from the masses:

1) Comments on this build.
2) Other Vial builds (I'm fairly sure black is the way to go since it offers the tools to beat combo as well as a Vial friendly draw engine, but I'm not sure about the splash and I'm open to alternatives)
3) General thoughts on Vial or the Vial structure.
4) Creatures or cards that work well with Vial. (like isn't there a green creature that let's you fetch copies of it for free? Or am I crazy?)


Thanks for the time.

[vigilante]

What about dropping the Razes and some of the less-than-stellar creatures (FTK and Rotting Giant, I'm looking at you) and squeezing in 4 Dark Ritual and 3-4 Nether Void? Void + Vial = good times, and the mana denial theme seems to fit a Nether Void strategy perfectly, as does the inclusion of the Nantuko Shades that you're already running.

If you took the Void route, it'd probably be worth adding an extra Jitte (maybe two) to offset the 4 life-loss if you flip a Void with Dark Confidant. Combined with the Carnophages, that could get painful quickly. (To that effect, would Sarcomancy be a more appropriate choice than Carnophage? It has better synergy with Negator, at the very least).

Edit: No, on second thoughts, Sarcomancy isn't better than Carnophage because Sarcomancy + Aether Vial = teh suck.

[Maveric78f]

Crack the earth >> raze because, you don't have to target (daze is not a solution) and because your sacrifice is not part of the cost.

Crucible should be more useful than jitte.

If you want a competitive deck that completely abuses vial, you have some builds of slivers (homemade) :
// Lands
1 [B] Tropical Island
2 [B] Savannah
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [U] Tundra
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [A] Bayou
2 [B] Scrubland
2 [B] Underground Sea

// Creatures
4 [SH] Crystalline Sliver
4 [TE] Muscle Sliver
4 [LE] Plated Sliver
1 [TE] Winged Sliver
2 [SH] Hibernation Sliver
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
4 [TSP] Gemhide Sliver
1 [PLC] Dark Heart Sliver
4 [PLS] Sinew Sliver
1 [PLC] Necrotic Sliver
2 [TSP] Screeching Sliver

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [US] Duress
4 [PS] Eladamri's Call
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate

You have also a strange homemade build that uses the powerful interaction between vial and harpy (and rats). This deck is too weak against gob to be played in a tournament, but it is very good against most of the rest of the field.
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [CHK] Island (2)
3 [MI] Swamp (4)
1 [U] Scrubland
1 [MR] Plains (3)
1 [U] Underground Sea
1 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [PS] Cavern Harpy
2 [9E] Ravenous Rats
1 [FD] Leonin Squire
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
4 [TSP] Sage of Epityr
4 [TSP] Dream Stalker
2 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend
2 [P3] Corrupt Court Official

// Spells
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
4 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [SC] Stifle

[MattH]

Oh, Survival abuses the card all right. Its cards just aren't as strong as the interaction between goblins.

[legacyplayer0]

The reason that decks other than goblins don't abuse vial in the same way goblins does (lands, creatures, vial) is becuase other decks built in this way are pretty much the same thing but worse. 30 Goblins in a deck together are simply much stronger than 30 of any other assortment of creatures. The casting costs of the more powerful goblins are spread out perfectly for Vial abuse, and these already good cards become even better when you have so many other goblins around. Playing anything other than goblins in a deck with a bunch of lands, a few metagame cards, and 4x Vial is strictly worse.

[raharu]

hey, first post here. read the forums for a while now. at any rate, anyone else think that a vial-CoTV deck with most of the creatures at 2-3 would work??
maybe in an agro-control shell?? idk, but if you exclusively use the vial for your creatures, then you have an uncounterable creature base and mana left over for
counters, disruption, and metagame cards. i'm thinking something like 16-20
creatures and a low of threshold like land count. that leaves lots of room for
business spells and nice things like equipment and buff enchantments that
goblins don't have room for. just a thought.

[Isamaru]

Sage of Epityr... and, well. :wink:

Shameless plug time - again already? :tongue:

Vial Horror (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=47196)
4 Pongify
4 Gilded Drake
3 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sage of Epityr

3 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Looter il-Kor
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Stifle

4 Aether Vial
3 Despotic Scepter
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth

1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Riptide Lab
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou (for Explosives)
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Engineered Plague
1 Winter Orb
3 Hydroblast/Duress
1 Stifle (or 4th Plague)

[Aggro_zombies]

You know, I bet that Aether Vial card would be really good in Goblins.

Also, Vial Horror is a terrible deck...although it's probably better than Death and Taxes.

[Rabbi Dan]

Aether Vial + Standstill is awesome. I've got a U/W control build with both of these, and I use the vial to get out ophidian/morphling/exalted angel. It's actually been doing really well in playtesting.

// Lands
4 [P2] Plains (2)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [BD] Island (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [U] Tundra

// Creatures
2 [US] Morphling
1 [FNM] Ophidian
1 [ON] Exalted Angel

// Spells
1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
3 [FNM] Fact or Fiction
4 [OD] Standstill
3 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [SC] Stifle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [8E] Mana Leak
4 [AL] Force of Will

This is by no means optimized (doesn't even have a sideboard), and it doesn't fit your concept of abusing aether vial, but I've been impressed with the results. There's really nothing better than an opening grip with Vial + Standstill.

[Bane of the Living]

You know, I bet that Aether Vial card would be really good in Goblins.

Also, Vial Horror is a terrible deck...although it's probably better than Death and Taxes.

QMFT

Death and Taxes wins nearly every tournament my team mate plays it in. As long as there's no combo he just runs over everyone. Everytime I watch him do stupid things like lock the board with Mangara/Vial/Karakas or do silly things like Vial Stonecloaker to rfg graveyards, I think to myself how the deck breaks the card the best next to goblins.

It gets to play with Port and Wastelands just like gobs but can use Karakas to bounce guys constantly to gain card advantage and replay them the very same turn for free off of vial.

Playing Cataclysm and leaving Karakas, Vial, Mangara is just unfair.

Death and Taxes is incredibley under played.

[sammiel]

. As long as there's no combo

I think we know why the deck is underplayed.

[Bane of the Living]

I think we know why the deck is underplayed.

Theres pretty much no combo in my meta. If there is its Gamekeeper and he plays Samuria of the Pale Curtain main. The deck has an awsome gobs matchup and beats the shit out of control. I dont mind playing a deck that just has a loss to belcher. Who fuckin cares?

[Cait_Sith]

Theres pretty much no combo in my meta. If there is its Gamekeeper and he plays Samuria of the Pale Curtain main. The deck has an awsome gobs matchup and beats the shit out of control. I dont mind playing a deck that just has a loss to belcher. Who fuckin cares?

The mods. Because this isn't a Death and Taxes thread.

Also, the earlier suggestion of Standstill works nicely in Fish.

[Rabbi Dan]

I think I asked myself the question of ways to best [ab]use vial, as I have a lot of decks with 4x Vial in them.

Vial works well with effects that make you lose your own lands. Here's another completely unoptimized deck list, this time it's Mono-Black Aggro Stax that uses Vial.

// Lands
24 [TSP] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
2 [DS] Greater Harvester
3 [9E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [AT] Black Knight

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [7E] Duress
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Infest
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IN] Swamp (1)

Vial would be great in conjunction with armageddon/wild fire.

[Bane of the Living]

The mods. Because this isn't a Death and Taxes thread.

Also, the earlier suggestion of Standstill works nicely in Fish.

I said who cares if it loses to belcher. Dont piggy back mods and dont tell me what to talk about. This is a thread about Aether Vial and thats what I was discussing.


I think I asked myself the question of ways to best [ab]use vial, as I have a lot of decks with 4x Vial in them.

Vial works well with effects that make you lose your own lands. Here's another completely unoptimized deck list, this time it's Mono-Black Aggro Stax that uses Vial.

// Lands
24 [TSP] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
2 [DS] Greater Harvester
3 [9E] Hypnotic Specter
4 [AT] Black Knight

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [CST] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [7E] Duress
4 [NE] Tangle Wire
4 [US] Smokestack

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Infest
SB: 4 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [IN] Swamp (1)

Vial would be great in conjunction with armageddon/wild fire.

Thats pretty much the worst deck Ive seen suggesting ways to abuse Vial. You only have 9 creatures that have no significant curve to abuse the vial. You play 24 basic swamps and 4 dark ritual?

[Isamaru]

You know, I bet that Aether Vial card would be really good in Goblins.

Also, Vial Horror is a terrible deck...although it's probably better than Death and Taxes.

Funny, aggro_zombies, considering Giles is one of the biggest advocates for the deck and he is a member of your team.

Does every thread turn into an argument? It sure seems that way.

I don't feel like pointlessly defending VH here, as this isn't really the place for it and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. I do think, though, that the deck abuses Vial well.

A card I would like to see played with Vial is Nantuko Shaman :) I've seen Vial played in a deck, though, that used Mystic Snake and Cavern Harpy over and over... quite annoying.

[Rabbi Dan]

Thats pretty much the worst deck Ive seen suggesting ways to abuse Vial. You only have 9 creatures that have no significant curve to abuse the vial. You play 24 basic swamps and 4 dark ritual?
Yes I made it clear that it was a completely unoptimized deck, and just a concept thrown together with some cards. Thank you for reiterating my point I guess. The point of my post was that Vial is good with things that blow up lands mutually. Maybe you could try a constructive post!

[xsockmonkeyx]

I don't feel like pointlessly defending VH here, as this isn't really the place for it and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter. I do think, though, that the deck abuses Vial well.

Its my opinion that Vial and the coolness of Vialing in a Sage is holding the deck's progress back. IMO Vile Horror is misusing Vial.

You really need to start a thread for VH here. You wont get the kind of quality criticism at MTGS that you will here.

[Bane of the Living]

Maybe you could try a constructive post!

Throwing random unoptimised decklists up are hardly constructive. That deck is the complete opposite of taking advantage of vial. Infact your deck makes it look quite fair.

I wouldnt mind seeing the Vile Horror deck on the source. I hate salvation. However I dont really see how it abuses the card just by getting the Horror into play uncounterable however. Am I missing something?

Survival decks do abuse vial a great deal. Most specifically Welder Survival lists since they can use it to get an uncounterable welder out and weld it away for combo.

So my votes so far go to..

1) Goblins
2) Death and Taxes
3) Welder Survival

[APriestOfGix]

So, nearly everyone seems to agree that Aether Vial is one of the strongest cards in the format. It has been banned in formats previous, and breaks a pretty fundamental rule of magic. So why then, does only one deck abuse Vial?

i would say Death and Taxes abuses it...

[Cait_Sith]

I said who cares if it loses to belcher. Dont piggy back mods and dont tell me what to talk about. This is a thread about Aether Vial and thats what I was discussing.

No, you were discussing Death and Taxes. There is a thread for that. The part where you don't take jokes at all gos in with you being on Team Necro. And also, would you rather me just use the report function every time you derail a thread with inane comments?

Also, this is brainstorming in the N&D and you are complaining about unoptimized decklists? You truely are an amazing individual.

On topic:

Welder Survival is pretty bad. It really doesn't do anything amazing with vial. Meathooks tends to work better since it both has draw spells and the majority of its curve on the 2 slot.

Armageddon + WW does it decently, since it can keep dropping threats. Armageddon, Vial, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain can only be described as hilarious.

When it comes to abusing Vial your main choices are: use it as a powerful mana accelerant, or; use it to bypass mana costs.

[sammiel]

I used it to great success in a build of monoblack aggro. all my creatures cost 2, and most of them had various mana-hungry abilities, so the vials allowed me to drop creatures while still casting discard, or pump creatures in play while still dropping instant speed threats.

[Bane of the Living]

No, you were discussing Death and Taxes. There is a thread for that. The part where you don't take jokes at all gos in with you being on Team Necro. And also, would you rather me just use the report function every time you derail a thread with inane comments?

Also, this is brainstorming in the N&D and you are complaining about unoptimized decklists? You truely are an amazing individual.


What is your beef dude?

I absolutely brought up D&T. He asked which decks we thought abused the card the most. I pointed out why and ended with a comment about it being underplayed. How is that derailing the thread??

I would be more than happy if you report my D&T thread to a mod and waste their time. I wasnt off topic at all. Going off topic was saying "DEATH AND TAXEZS LOSES TO COMBO ROFL!!

I didnt see you make a joke btw. Telling me straight up dont talk about D&T is pretty rude. Mocking my team is even more rude and I dont see a need for it at all.

[Cait_Sith]

Yea, but you are the rudest person on the site at this point, so if you go I'll take your crown.

On topic:

I am assuming you meant you used Pump Knights, because otherwise Vial is a waste of cards. Often black decks have too much unspent not, not too little.

[Bane of the Living]

Yea, but you are the rudest person on the site at this point, so if you go I'll take your crown.


Im gonna throw this one to Diablos. I could probably get away with calling people big blubbery vagina's and cock suckers too if I was a mod..

If you meet me IRL you'll know Im obviously not rude in person. Ask anyone who has. But I cant stand when noobs hop on the source and spray their noob ignorance spam all over the boards. You better believe Ill tell you your deck sucks if it does. Hence my harsh criticism on Shenanigans and Doomsday.

I dont really see why your saying Welder Survival sucks.. Give some examples as to why. Is it maybe under developted? It gets awesome new toys all the time to improve it. Sliver Smith? SOOO good. Especially with Aether Vial.

[Cait_Sith]

If you meet me IRL you'll know Im obviously not rude in person. Ask anyone who has. But I cant stand when noobs hop on the source and spray their noob ignorance spam all over the boards. You better believe Ill tell you your deck sucks if it does. Hence my harsh criticism on Shenanigans and Doomsday.

Oh feel free to rip those a new one. God knows I would if I had more time. I would also poke at the 4 Color Fish deck as well. It's mana base is incredibly unstable, as it depends on a color easily hated out by wasteland. I get angry because you tend to make big assumptions about people and their opinions, but you don't like it when I do the same to you.



I dont really see why your saying Welder Survival sucks.. Give some examples as to why. Is it maybe under developed? It gets awesome new toys all the time to improve it. Sliver Smith? SOOO good. Especially with Aether Vial.

This is probably right, but the curve on Welder Survival isn't impressive enough to really abuse Vial. I mean, are you seriously sucking up so much mana you can't even fix it with Rofellos? Vial really needs to either be in a mana sink (like Vial Goblins) or in a deck where you really want to keep mana open (Meathooks) or where you plan on dropping an Armageddon.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hmm, seems I started a flame war. While those are almost always entertaining, I should probably make a constructive post before this thread derails into the nether regions of Off-Topicness.

The reason Vial is so good in Goblins is because it compliments two of the deck's strategies: mana disruption, and the ability to pump out multiple threats per turn without the opponent having much say in what's going on. The use of mana disruption cards like Port (tap two of your lands to tap one of your opponent's) and Wasteland (symmetrical land destruction) hamper your own mana development (from the Goblin player's perspective). This in turn curtails your ability to play out relevant threats in the absence of multiple Warchiefs. Vial allows to circumvent that by giving you a "free" Goblin every turn.

Furthermore, Vial allows for shenanigans with sandbagged threats. If your opponent sweeps your board, you can Vial in an EOT Matron or Ringleader and reload on your own turn. Furthermore, if you don't have a Warchief in play at the time, Vial allows you to play Goblins on your opponent's turn and then attack with them on yours, essentially giving them haste. Finally, it allows you to force through your most relevant Goblins without giving your opponent much opportunity to counter them.

That's why Vial is probably best abused by Goblins. Vial in and of itself is not something to build around - rather, it should only be put in decks where it compliments the deck's existing srategy.

[sechs]

edit : wrong board for open myself srry

Just for say that a deck IMO which abuse Vial is Life.deck, with the LW toolbox in the side and the parts of combo in the deck whom can be tutored and put for free with vial... that make the deck very consistant, still more in France where there is not much solidarity and many many gobbs.

merci

[Pinder]

Hey, you know what's great? Discussing Aether Vial. I'm going to go on a tangent, but I'll get to Vial in a bit.

First, Bane is a nice guy in person. I met him at the GP. I signed a Sliver for him. 'Nuff said.

Second, Giles' Ninja status is more incidental than anything else, simply because he personally knows 3/4 of the founding members. And who says that teammates have to agree on everything?

Personally, I've never seen D&T do anything impressive, but then again, there are a lot of people who haven't seen Slivers do anything impressive, so...

Anyway, back to Vial, I'm pretty much going to agree with a lot of the people here. The reason there aren't a ton of decks truly abusing Vial is because Goblins is the only deck that can really abuse Vial that heavily. To reiterate, anything that tries to abuse Vial as much is essentially just doing what Goblins does, but worse, so why not play Goblins? The possible-possible, mind you - exception is probably Death and Taxes, if only because it abuses Vial in a slightly different way than Goblins does.

I think that there are a few main uses for Vial: As an accelerant, to drop multiple dudes on the table earlier, as a mana cheat, to be able to play creatures that you don't have enough mana for, as a mana smoother, to play dudes you don't have the right colors of mana for, and to cheat timing by making things instant. Also, to dodge counterspells. Okay, more than just a few. That's probably why Aether Vial is so good in this format, because it can preform so many roles in so many decks. Unfortunately, you can really only get a couple of these at once in most decks, although every once in a while a deck (i.e., Goblins) comes along with the ability to abuse just about every aspect of the card. But I think that's more the exception than the rule with Aether Vial, honestly.

[Aggro_zombies]

Hum I'm sorry, It's my first post on the source and I hope you'll dont flame me ! :tongue:
Heh, this is the wrong thread to open with that kind of statement.


Just for say that a deck amha which abuse Vial is Life.deck, with the LW toolbox in the side and the parts of combo in the deck whom can be tutored and put for free with vial... that make the deck very consistant, still more in France where there is not much solidarity and many many gobbs.

thanks
Thanks for mentioning that, you've backed up my point. The deck uses Vial to bypass an opponent's counters and ensure that its combo pieces make it into play. IMO, any deck that uses Vial well is not going to be built around the card.

[outsideangel]

How do you build a deck around Vial anyway? The card doesn't actually do anything on its own.

Vial's strength is relative to the strength of the other cards in your deck. That's why Vial is best in Goblins: Goblins plays the strongest cards that interact with it. It has the some of the best creatures to drop with it and also has plenty of things to do with the mana/land-drops that Vial frees up. Vial is good in Goblins because Goblins is good.

[Aggro_zombies]

How do you build a deck around Vial anyway? The card doesn't actually do anything on its own.

Vial's strength is relative to the strength of the other cards in your deck. That's why Vial is best in Goblins: Goblins plays the strongest cards that interact with it. It has the some of the best creatures to drop with it and also has plenty of things to do with the mana/land-drops that Vial frees up. Vial is good in Goblins because Goblins is good.
You'd probably want creatures of roughly the same casting cost, 1-3 mana, with CiP abilities that could be abused at instant speed. Or you build a deck where you want to have your lands doing something other than paying for creatures. Or you just run Standstill and Rule of Law.

[outsideangel]

The second one is not really abusing Vial, just using it. In fact, I'd say it's a requirement to be able to actually make Vial any good. If you were just going to let that mana sit there, then you're losing out on one of the main strengths of Vial in the first place.

I can't think of anything relevant that would fit in the first example. The closest I can come is, like, Voidmage Prodigy.

The third idea sounds fairly awful, which is why, I suppose, there hasn't been a deck like that yet.

I guess DnT is the closest you get to a Vial-centric deck.

[raharu]

chalices, vials, screwy mana curve and big instants, sorceries and enchantments are starting to look like the best thing that one can do with vial. chalices creating multiple dead spots on the curve (0, 1, and 2) and vialing in overpowered, fast threats at 1,2, and 3, punching everything in the face, using big stuff like wipe away, dark banishing, sudden death, ect, ect, maybe even use retarded stuff like abduction to force your threats through. idk. i'm working on a deck right now that uses vial (but with no chalices), but it looks like more unoptimized decklists are the last thing this thread needs.

[Giles]

Funny, aggro_zombies, considering Giles is one of the biggest advocates for the deck and he is a member of your team.

Actually, I am a member of a different team. But do not tell the ninjas that, I am on their good side (Except for James', he is quite the ass to me.)



Second, Giles' Ninja status is more incidental than anything else, simply because he personally knows 3/4 of the founding members.
Hello, Pinder. How are you?


Anyways on to Vial:
Back in the day of Playing "Puget Sound" (The UBw version of Vile Horror) gave me that Vial needs to be used for tricks. Sure powering out Goblins for free is such a fucking power house. However, people think that since goblins can rape people with vial they think they can to. So what do people do, they try to take goblins plan and apply it to their own and it does not work as well. Sure they power out cards, but there not that broken and can stopped.

Vial should not be the answer to the terrible mana base, but should be a nice thing if it comes on-line. Deck designers must remember that they are not Goblins and need to adjust accordingly. Vial's green girl just be luring you in to it's divine plan. Rather it should be the other way around.

[Sengaija]

i really like how aether vial works with Epochrasite, so much actually that im thinking of building a deck with it something like this:

creatures:

4x Epochrasite
4x Wild mongrel
4x Goblin Welder
?x additional threats to go with the beatdown strategy

Other spells:

4x Aether Vial
?x some crazy artifacts that just win the game (maybe winter orb, SoFI, Sundering titan, mindslaver?)

lands:

?x mana base including artifact-lands.

[Tacosnape]

i really like how aether vial works with Epochrasite, so much actually that im thinking of building a deck with it something like this:

4x Epochrasite
4x Wild mongrel
4x Goblin Welder
4x Aether Vial


I think there's a lot of potential in this idea if we don't get too cutesy with it. That's a very synergistic set of 16 cards to work off of.

[Phantom]

I think there's a lot of potential in this idea if we don't get too cutesy with it. That's a very synergistic set of 16 cards to work off of.

I really like this idea a lot I think. Unfortunatly, I have little to no experience with Welder and have no idea what to surround him with. A survival shell? A Madness shell? Splash black for combo hate? Blue for dig?

[Nihil Credo]

I'll throw something out there.

RBG Good & Synergistic Stuff

20 lands

4 Aether Vial
2 Pithing Needle

4 Dark Confidant
4 Goblin Welder
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Epochrasite
4 Tarmogoyf

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Tangle Wire
4 Diabolic Edict (Sinkhole?)

[Isamaru]

An interesting thing about designing with Aether Vial is the considerations that need to be made for Chalice of the Void. Anyway, be careful...

So you are trying to put Epochrasite into a deck with Vial? Well it's already been done.

Epochrasite is in Vile Horror, but in this metagame has been replaced by Stifle, otherwise it was amazing (if the meta wasn't the way it is). It not only has synergy with Vial (obviously), but also with Pongify and Cabal Therapy, and the rest of the deck.

Here is another listing of Vile Horror, this time with Stifle replaced by Epochrasite as mentioned.

Vial Horror - Epochrasite (http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=47196&page=44)
4 Pongify
4 Gilded Drake
3 Hunted Horror
4 Dark Confidant
4 Sage of Epityr

3 Dimir Infiltrator
1 Looter il-Kor / 4th Infiltrator
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Epochrasite

4 Aether Vial
3 Despotic Scepter
2 Tel-Jilad Stylus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Echoing Truth

1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Riptide Lab
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou (for Explosives)
2 Swamp
2 Island

Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
4 Stifle

[DampingEngine]

You'd never know Blue Skies even existed if you just read the Source, huh? It's probably the most successful deck to run Vial next to Goblins. The list I used at GP Columbus was this one (obviously tweaked for the combo matchup):

2x Cloud of Faeries
4x Spiketail Hatchling
4x Looter il-Kor
4x Serendib Efreet
4x Sea Drake

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Stifle

4x Aether Vial
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Mask of Memory

4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
12x Snow-Covered Island

SIDEBOARD:
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Winter Orb
3x Echoing Truth
4x Sea Sprite

Cody Mannion actually made day 2 of Columbus with Skies while I didn't do so hot, so if you can get his decklist, it might be more useful for you (I don't know his Source name). As you can see, I have 8 utility lands just like Goblins but 4 of them are Factories to help use the equipment. Besides letting you cheat on blue sources, Vial also allows you to spend mana on casting and activating equipment while still dropping threats. It also helps negate the drawback of Sea Drake and creates some neat tricks with Sea Drake and Cloud of Faeries. You can even surprise someone with a Spiketail Hatchling. It also is awesome with Winter Orb post board, and allows you to get creatures into play if you have a Chalice set at their mana cost. This deck probably has more synergy with Vial than even Goblins does, and I hate to see an opening hand without one.

[Phantom]

You'd never know Blue Skies even existed if you just read the Source, huh?

Actually, I am and have always been a big fan of Blue Skies. I probably should have posted it as a deck that abuses Vial very well, but I think I was looking for something non-Blue. Skies has always lived in the shadow of its bigger brother's raw power, which is a shame.

I always admired the synergy of the deck, and I think Stifle is a strong inclusion even after the banning of flash (good for Belcher and TES as well as mana denial with Wasteland). Do you miss the standstills (I thought you ran them but now I'm not so sure). Are they better than the Masks?

@ Vial Horror - I'm not all that interested in Horror builds. I certainly may be wrong having never played it, but they just look so bad.

@ Chalice - I'll worry about getting around Chalice when we get a good looking build going. It's not like we're the only deck out there smashed by Chalice.

[raharu]

vial control? the ability to bash like agro and still keep your mana open for threats would be very nice, and make for better control decks. they would be like agro control, but allowed to run more (and probably better) cards/creatures because of the mana left open.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

vial control? the ability to bash like agro and still keep your mana open for threats would be very nice, and make for better control decks. they would be like agro control, but allowed to run more (and probably better) cards/creatures because of the mana left open.

You mean fish? It sounds like you're describing any fish deck that uses Æther Vial.

[raharu]

but designed with vial more in mind. ideally, it would be faster and able to run more effective answers because the mana is freed up.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

I think people get the mistaken impression that Vial is good in Goblins because of Matron and Ringleader and SGC, or because of Port and Wasteland. Vial is good in Goblins because of Warchief and Lackey. Goblins, unlike most other decks that try to use Vial, has multiple ways to cheat mana costs, and they all have synergy together, and with the cards that they're cheating into play.

You can build a deck with a gradual curve like Goblins and with Ports and Wastelands, but unless you have multiple ways of cheating costs + ways to use that to gain card advantage and provide disruption, you're wasting your time.

[raharu]

i don't pay attention to goblins outside of how to beat it, so i can't say i know why vial is good in goblins, but the basic idea behind using vial in a control deck is to be able to play really good answers like counterspell and disipate that traditionally lose favor to other cards because of the mana cost. in the deck i'm talking about, vial allows you to use most or all af your mana to disrupt your opponent while still allowing a steady flow of threats.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

That just seems like fish to me, use Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage, Jötun Grunt, and Serra Avenger as a creature base, add Swords, Dazes, Duress, Stifles, and Forces for a control aspect, and a Jitte or Swords of Fire and Ice because they're good.

That would be a Vial based, but not dependent, deck that uses the available mana for a control aspect, i.e., fish.

[raharu]

i think that there better creatures that the ones on fish that would go well in this deck and we need to look outside vial-fish. also, all the spells you listed are good because they are effective and cheap. because we don't need all our mana for threats, we should be looking for better spells that take advantage of that. and while i love confidant, if we are going to use bigger, stronger spells that would necessitate SDT, and that implies counterbalance, which allows more mana to be open for additional disruption. i have been lazily slinging together lists like this, but i have trouble getting the mana curve off of one and two.

[FoolofaTook]

It would seem like the best use for Vial in a non-Goblins deck would be to reliably put 3CC creatures into play and protect them or continue disrupting with the main mana base.

Pick 3 colors that produce really abusive creatures and use Vial to help keep the mana base consistent and reduce the need to mulligan because of mismatched hands.

Creatures might be:

4x Serendib Efreet
4x Trinket Mage
3x Jagged Poppet
2x Phyrexian Negator
3x Dimir Cutpurse
2x Phyrexian War Machine

Permission spells:

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell
2x Chalice of the Void

Removal:

2x Earthquake
2x Pyroclasm
2x Engineered Explosives

Engine:

4x Aether Vial

Land:

4x Mishra's Factory
3x Badlands
3x Volcanic Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire

That's a very rough list but I bet it would hold it's own against a lot of decks. There's even room for Duress in the sideboard.

[raharu]

i like that list a lot, but i like white over red in this deck. it allows somewhat forces you to run 2cc creatures, but that's fine since they are jotun grunt and serra's avenger. this also makes us want to run bob more. one thing bothers me about your list, though. you are aware that while those creatures are great, they all have drawbacks that vial won't fix? poppet? well, i don't like to top deck ever, and certainly not in a deck like this. phraxian negator. duh. effert? duh. all of them have bad drawbacks. out of the creatures i want to run (more on that later) the only one with a real pitfall is jotun grunt, which is not that bad and allows you to hate on all sorts of cards/decks.

[raharu]

sorry for double posting, my DSL connection is lagging/being retarded so i can't stay logged on long enough to edit my last post (???)

here is the list. the random looking enchantments are either toolbox targets for the tutors or more synergy with the tutors and counterbalance.

Instants:
Mystical tutor X3 U
Enlightened tutor X4 W
Swords to plowshares X2 W
Disenchant X2 1W
Dissipate X2 1UU
Force of will X2 3UU

Creatures:
Mother of runes X3 W
Jotun grunt X2 1W
Dark confidant X3 1B
Meddling mage X2-3 WU
Serra’s avenger X3 WW
Phriaxian negator X2 2B
Vexing sphinx X2 1UU

Enchantments:
Counterbalance X2-3 UU
Hissing miasmia X2 1BB
Arcane laboratory X1 2U
Rule of law X1 2W

Artifacts:
Æther vial X3 1
Sensei’s divining top X2 1
Umezwa’s jitte X2 2

Sideboard:
Last word X2 2UU
Arcane laboratory X1 2U
Rule of law X1 2W
Engineered plague X2-4 2B
Trickbind X2-4 1U


the sideboard is just thrown together, the list has a lot of creatures and spells that i don't like and will probably come out, and the curve rests too heavily on 1 and 2, but it's a rough template to go off of, even though it looks too muck like fish for my tastes (love fish, but don't want this deck to be vial-fish. that's not the idea).

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I don't like that list.

Two different toolboxes? I would drop the Mystical Tutors and replace them with cards that actually do things. Why Dissipate? Wouldn't Counterspell be better? Only two Forces? I think a better counterspell-shell would be four Force, four Counterspell, four Mana Leak, and minus two Disenchatnts.

Is Vexing Sphinx any good in this deck? Your only source of positive card advantage* is three Dark Confidants. You also have several sources of card disadvantage in the form of tutors, Negators, Sphinxes, and Forces, not to mention dead cards in the form of Rule of Laws and Miasmias.

*By "positive card advantage" I mean a source of card advantage that gets you cards like with Dark Confidant as opposed to "negative card advantage," sources that dispose of more of your opponent's cards, like Hymn to Tourach.

[Angelfire]

It would seem like the best use for Vial in a non-Goblins deck would be to reliably put 3CC creatures into play and protect them or continue disrupting with the main mana base.

Pick 3 colors that produce really abusive creatures and use Vial to help keep the mana base consistent and reduce the need to mulligan because of mismatched hands.

Creatures might be:

4x Serendib Efreet
4x Trinket Mage
3x Jagged Poppet
2x Phyrexian Negator
3x Dimir Cutpurse
2x Phyrexian War Machine

Permission spells:

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Counterspell
2x Chalice of the Void

Removal:

2x Earthquake
2x Pyroclasm
2x Engineered Explosives

Engine:

4x Aether Vial

Land:

4x Mishra's Factory
3x Badlands
3x Volcanic Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire

That's a very rough list but I bet it would hold it's own against a lot of decks. There's even room for Duress in the sideboard.

There is way too much anti-synergy in this deck. Negator and Poppet w/ Earthquake and Pyroclasm seems horrible, not to mention Trinket Mage and Dimir Cutpurse would die to them almost everytime as well. Poppet is really only good if you have Hellbent and I don't think a deck 9 permission spells you would ever want Hellbent. Phyrexian Warbeast is also kinda bad and very bad when he dies. Run one of those guys that makes you unable to cast creature spells like Steel Golem (no artifact spells kinda sucks tho) or Grid Monitor (costs 4). Also w/ only removal that kills Dimir Cutpurse, if they resolve one critter after he comes out he likely never connect.

[FoolofaTook]

There is way too much anti-synergy in this deck. Negator and Poppet w/ Earthquake and Pyroclasm seems horrible, not to mention Trinket Mage and Dimir Cutpurse would die to them almost everytime as well. Poppet is really only good if you have Hellbent and I don't think a deck 9 permission spells you would ever want Hellbent. Phyrexian Warbeast is also kinda bad and very bad when he dies. Run one of those guys that makes you unable to cast creature spells like Steel Golem (no artifact spells kinda sucks tho) or Grid Monitor (costs 4). Also w/ only removal that kills Dimir Cutpurse, if they resolve one critter after he comes out he likely never connect.

All valid criticisms. I still see the deck as having some real possibilities. If the opponent resolves enough small critters (as in EtW or Siege Commander) having Pyroclasm or Earthquake around is probably a good thing even if it takes out the Trinket Mage or causes you to discard two cards when it hits Jagged Poppet, you can even use use Pyroclasm or Earthquake to take out all the chump blockers and make Jagged Poppet hellbent when he attacks.

I tend to agree wholeheartedly on the Negators, which is why there are only 2 in the deck. Something needs to finish now and then and it really helps if it only costs B2 instead of 2 colored mana.

The Dimir Cutpurse is kind of a throwaway, however he's great if you're playing against a creatureless deck with removal as they will definitely get rid of him before something that hits harder comes out. Again there are only 3 of him because he's not that great in many matchups as you point out.

It's by no means even a remotely finished list, just an idea of one way to exploit Aether Vial that is not Goblin based. Lots of things that land at the end of the opponent's turn off of a vial are going to make them swallow hard and worry. The fact that all the creatures cast for 3 just allows the vials to be set for their purpose and then used consistently without bad choices arising from having conflicting desires based on what's in your hand vs what you might draw.

[raharu]

like i said, the list was rough, and needed fixing. i'm working on one now that is much better, but i'm not done. the two different toolboxes are for two different tutors, and one opens another (M. tutor for E. tutor). also, tutoring for counterbalance counters is good. vexing sphinx makes card advantage, and is the sex with jotun grunt. not like it matters anyway, it's comeing out in my new version. the list was way way way too heavy on the 1 and 2 slots on the mana curve, and thus the disipates. two forces because we really only need them to counter other forces anyway, and we can top them out of draw range to reuse them. some of these concepets are going in my new list, some are coming out, and many, many more are going in. the new list will be more to describe how the deck should run that how it WILL or SHOULD look in the end. don't have it with me now, but i'll post it later (family stuff for the next week or two *argh*)

[FoolofaTook]

There is way too much anti-synergy in this deck.

One of the things I meant to say in the earlier response was that synergy is a wonderful thing in a deck, and great synergy is glorious. Until you run into the thing that destroys all of the synergy you've built into the deck.

Sometimes a few slightly jagged edges can strengthen a deck because they widen the range of possibilities in play and create a larger threat range for the opponent to try to shutdown.

There are very few really effective ways to handle a multitude of creatures on turn 1 or 2. Having a few of them in a deck with a bunch of creatures that cannot land until turn 3 in most cases is not necessarily weakening the deck, even if some of the creatures that you run are not particularly happy with the removal mechanisms.

The concept of nailing your hand with a Pyroclasm over a Jagged Poppet is very counterintuitive, but it might be the way that you get to play counters until the Poppet is ready to strike and then suddenly have him hellbent if you're willing to risk it. Lion's Eye Diamond could do that as well, of course, however then you're playing a different kind of deck, one that tries to get the critters up turn 1 without counter protection, via a tutor or other draw mechanism, instead of turn 3 with it.

[TheCramp]

Has anyone tested Vial in Elves! I know Elves! is dumb and should have plenty of mana with cradle and what have you, but if instead it used Vial for mana acceleration, and focused on more beef, It might be promising. You could use Skyshroud Elite over lanowar, (or at least the fyndhorns.) Seems like Vial, wirewood symbiot, and the elf ringleader, would be as strong as Matron Ringleader and Vial. I guess its just that elves suck, and goblins have removal. Maybe Thornweild archers help out elves. Their really good with Symbiot, because you can untap to block after beating. Can they fill in the gempalm roll? Instant uncounterable archers are pretty good removal as far as green is concerned.

[raharu]

i found something that is simply retarded in a vial deck. here it is. parting the veil on your opponent's EoT, then cast damnation/wrath on your turn, clearing the board without nailing your entire board position. just a decent example of how a deck like this should play. the mana left open is used for powerful, and otherwise unplayable, combat tricks

Please use the shift key. Forum rules can be found here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/announcement.php?f=24). ~ Nightmare

[Finn]

Vial is good if you are planning to build around Haakon. But the Knight you would want from Portal or Starter or something only exists in small numbers. Oh, and the resulting deck is destined to suck.

[raharu]

The real question that you have to answer when building a deck with vial (not a "vial deck", they suck), is what creatures are you going to use? You also have to figure where they're going to be (on the curve, spread out or on one spot ect. ect). Most people (and I) tend to stick them on one spot, and while that's fine, you have to look at what every other deck with vial does also to get an idea as to how they run it. 1st, look at (of course), goblins. All over the place. Next we look at vial affinity. A little more compact, in regards to the cc, but still spread out. Then vial/fish... The least powerful use of vial out of the three. All in one spot. I think we need to make a creaturebase centered around 1, 2, 3, and maybe 4. That's what I'm working on. I need creature ideas though. NO ONE SAY GOBLINS OR I'LL BEAT YOU.