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Silverdragon
06-24-2007, 08:06 PM
This deck is a port from Vintage Bomberman. I wasn't satisfied with Solidarity anymore lately and looked for a deck that could improve the matchups against fast combo and Fishdecks but also keep a solid combo finish to race other dedicated control decks and keep a slight edge against Goblins.
So far I could not get a lot of testing so I'm more or less throwing this out to the public hoping that someone will help me develop this idea.
The main engine of the deck is Trinket Mage searching for Explosives, Needle, Crypt or Sensei's Divining Top to combine with Counterbalance. The second objective is to get a Salvager and protect him with countermagic to get an advatage with all the trinkets (including spellbombs). If you don't fear opposing disruption you can simply go for LED and start the combo for infi mana, cards and maybe life.
There are a lot of cards I want to stuff into the deck so I need input on what is essential and what can be cut in your opinion.
Here's the list:

//Creatures
4 Auriok Salvager
4 Trinket Mage
//Trinkets
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sunbeam Spellbomb
//Countermagic
3 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
//Draw and Tutor
1 Cunning Wish
3 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
//misc
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
//Mana
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
7 Island

//Sideboard:
4 Propaganda
3 Exalted Angel
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Furnace
1 Hurkyls Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
1 Abeyance
1 Stroke of Genius


The cardchoices I'm not sure about:
Sunbeam Spellbomb? Is infinite life needed? Is the lifeboost relevant in games without the infi mana combo?
Cards that could replace Sunbeam Spellbomb: Swords, Remand, maindeck Crypt/Furnace, Land
Remand? Are there better Counterspells for this deck? Should it be additional removal or a creature?
Cards that could replace Remand: Mana Leak, Counterspell, Disenchant, various bouncespells, Silver Knight(?)
Thirst for Knowledge? Is there better carddraw for this deck? Should it be something else than carddraw?
Cards that could replace Thirst for Knowledge: Intuition, Fact or Fiction, Impulse, Cunning Wish

The sideboard is pretty much thrown together. I want some graveyard hate, wish targets and (mainly for testing purposes) a way to become more aggressive or more defensive after boarding. The Exalted Angels are another idea I got from Vintage Bomberman lists but I didn't test them yet.
For Wish targets I wanted some bounce at 1, 2 and 3cc and these are the ones I'm trying currently. I really hate CoV and it'll most likely get cut for another Echoing Truth. I also wanted a way to win instantly with infi mana and Stroke helps there. Abeyance could be Orim's Chant but I like the cycling.

A major concern to me is the manabase. With only 20 lands it can get rough sometimes but it's hard for me to cut a nonland card. Ancient Tomb and Chrome Mox are the most reliable sources of acceleration and can provide you with early Trinket Mages and Salvagers or early Counterbalance in the case of Chrome Mox.
I also want to play one of Seat of the Synod and Ancient Den to fetch with Mage but I'm afraid of giving Goblins more targets for their Wastelands.
Fetches, Forces and Tombs can really hurt your lifetotal and that's why I currently have 1 Sunbeam Spellbomb.
Graveyard removal can be annoying but you are able to deal with it and to a certain degree play around it. Many times though you'll just win with a bunch of creatures backed up by Forces and Counterbalance.

As I already said I couldn't test it much yet but here's how I see some of this decks matchups on paper:

Fast combo (Iggy, TES, Belcher): Like every deck with Force of Will you certainly have a fighting chance here. Once you get Counterbalance active or your own combo going it should be over for them. I'd say the hardest to actually play (not counting random turn 1 wins) is TES because of Xantid Swarm. Overall slightly favourable to favourable.
Goblins: A lot harder on the draw. Although you have ways to handle Lackey, being one landdrop behind can mean the difference between comboing at the last second and dying to a bunch of angry green men. I'm thinking of including Stifle or additional Needles but I don't have a plan yet. Maybe switching the deck to Rabid Wombat between games and hoping not to get caught :wink: Preboard slightly unfavourable. Postboard unfavourable (they can board in Pillar, Chalice, Blasts, Krosan Grip etc. everything hurts you)
Threshold: Imho the white version is slightly harder because of Mages and Swords but Counterbalance and reccuring trinkets really shine here. I'm afraid of Tarmogoyf being bigger than everything you have but maybe you can handle him with your removal. Ironically the versions with maindeck Counterbalance are at a disadvantage here because a lot of our stuff can get around it. Still I'd say only slightly favourable.

As you can see this deck needs to be improved but it has a lot of potential.
I'll leave you with some more questions:
Does this deck want/need a splash color? If yes, which color? Should it focus more on the combo or more on the control route? Should there be a way to instantly finish the opponent aside from Wish into Stroke?

edit: The current list

4 Auriok Salvager
4 Trinket Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
1 Echoing Truth
3 Pyroclasm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chrome Mox
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains

There were several good suggestions thank you guys but the best one so far was to add more fetchlands. The 2 Polluted Deltas were golden every game I played with them.

Cait_Sith
06-24-2007, 09:06 PM
Ok, I am not sure of the advantage of his over Salvager's Game. Care to elaborate (Note that both decks are called Bomberman)

Also, 1k posts.

BreathWeapon
06-24-2007, 09:38 PM
I mess around with this deck on and off for fun so I can give some basic advice.

Balance/Top is awful, it's slow and it's useless against Goblins. Meddling Mage is mandatory, turning off your opponent's Swords to Plowshares or Tendrils of Agony is vital to your strategy, and against Goblins he's a chump blocker or puts pressure on the opponent while you're looking for your combo. Chrome Mox is mandatory, you have a high curve for an aggro-control deck and you need to accelerate into your cards. Mishra's Factory is amazing, it defends against Goblins and pressures the opponent while you're looking for your combo. If you're splashing Red, you'll want to use 4 Pyrite Spellbomb, if you're splashing any other color you'll want to use 4 Aether Spellbomb. You need something to use your Lion's Eye Diamond mana on, I highly suggest using Intuition since you can use it to tutor for both of your artifacts, your Auriok Salvagers and if you sac 2 LEDs in response you can cast him and combo off immediately, and then use 2 Deep Analysis so you can tutor for your Spellbomb, cast it and then sac LED to cycle the spellbomb and draw 4 cards. The best second counter spell for this deck is Condescend, because you have a mana hole in your 1/2 drops and it lets you cheat your land count and dig for combo pieces, as long as you use it really aggressively it's pretty awesome.

Edit: The obvious advantages of aggro-control based Salvagers is that Force of Will means combo doesn't kill you before you can blink.

thefreakaccident
06-25-2007, 02:07 AM
Honestly combo controls are my favorite decks.

I have been making a dooms day CB deck and I want o make salveger's game in the future.

I just need to know, how do you kill the opponent?

I know that some people scoop whe they beleive they cannot win, but doesn't that seem a little silly; a win condition just beng hopefult they'll scoop?

I think the deck sounds interesting, salvegers game with a blue splash instead of a black splash... you do need to have the 'classic' kill con, being the red spell bomb.

BreathWeapon
06-25-2007, 03:37 AM
The red spellbomb is just a good removal card in the format that's fast enough to answer Goblin Lackey on the play or on the draw with Chrome Mox. If you decide not to splash red, you can still use the blue spellbomb to draw your deck, return all of their creatures to their hand, play all of your Meddling Mages naming their outs, play all of your Auriok Salvagers and Trinket Mages for lethal damage and keep a hand full of Force of Wills and just wait to win next turn.

I was messing around with the deck this evening, and I think Merchant Scroll is really solid in the second counter slot. You can pre-emptively tutor for Force of Will against TES, Goblins etc. and stock pile Force of Wills against Threshold, Landstill etc. while also using it to shuffle after Brainstorm and find Thirst for Knowledge/Intuition with a tool box in the SB (Hurkyl's Recall, Echoing Truth and Fire/Ice).

I haven't lost a match to combo so far, between 4 Force of Will, 4 tutors for Force of Will, accelerated Meddling Mages and 8 tutors for removal against Empty the Warrens the match up is just a "tad" lop sided. This probably deserves a lot more testing in this format, I know the Germans worked on the deck religiously a couple of years ago, but nothing ever came of it.

outsideangel
06-25-2007, 04:34 AM
Merchant Scroll for Force seems terrible. It's like playing Counterspell, except you also lose a card. The point of Force is to play it for free, no? The other uses for Scroll (getting Truth vs. EtW, etc.) sound okay though.

Also, you don't actually have to splash to use Pyrite Spellbomb as a win condition, seeing as how LED makes mana of any color.

Re: the OP decklist... I like the direction it's going, but it needs some tuning, I think. I'd work in the 4th StP to deal with Lackey and Mages, probably for the Sunbeam Spellbomb, replace the Aether Spellbomb with Pyrite for the kill, and look at replacing Remand, maybe with Daze or Counterspell. The singleton Cunning Wish looks really random, too. Oh, and you should run 4 more fetches in place of 4 of the islands, to give you more consistent access to white mana.

vigilante
06-25-2007, 04:58 AM
Merchant Scroll for Force seems terrible. It's like playing Counterspell, except you also lose a card. The point of Force is to play it for free, no?I agree. The Merchant Scroll -> Force of Will play is acceptable in Vintage because it usually follows the Merchant Scroll -> Ancestral Recall play. Recall nets you enough card advantage to offset the card disadvantage generated should you have to use the Force to protect your Recall. Also, it sets up the inevitable Yawgmoth's Will, stocking your 'yard with plenty of awesome stuff to replay.

However, this is Legacy. There is no Ancestral Recall (Merchant Scroll -> Brainstorm is not a suitable substitute), there is no Yawgmoth's Will, so you can't offset plays that are card disadvantageous by netting a second use of those spells post-Will.

As it stands, the amount of cards you'd actually want to tutor up with Merchant Scroll seems too low to justify it's inclusion.

BreathWeapon
06-25-2007, 05:01 AM
Merchant Scroll for Force seems terrible. It's like playing Counterspell, except you also lose a card. The point of Force is to play it for free, no? The other uses for Scroll (getting Truth vs. EtW, etc.) sound okay though.

Also, you don't actually have to splash to use Pyrite Spellbomb as a win condition, seeing as how LED makes mana of any color.

Re: the OP decklist... I like the direction it's going, but it needs some tuning, I think. I'd work in the 4th StP to deal with Lackey and Mages, probably for the Sunbeam Spellbomb, replace the Aether Spellbomb with Pyrite for the kill, and look at replacing Remand, maybe with Daze or Counterspell. The singleton Cunning Wish looks really random, too. Oh, and you should run 4 more fetches in place of 4 of the islands, to give you more consistent access to white mana.

Unless the red spellbomb is being used as removal it's worthless, because the blue spellbomb can be used to EOT bounce an opposing Meddling Mage, bounce a Trinket Mage to find Lion's Eye Diamond or bounce a creature after combat damage is on the stack, you don't need the red spellbomb to actually kill your opponent.

Merchant Scroll for Force of Will is strong against combo regardless of whether or not it costs 1U and a blue card to do it, and against aggro-control and control it allows the deck to assemble a Force of Will(s) to resolve the Auriok Salvagers with counter back up.

Edit: you guys actually need to PT the aggro-control match up before you judge Merchant Scroll, I don't think you understand how critical resolving Auriok Salvagers with counter back up is on turn 4 when you're starring down a Tarmogoyf. Card advantage is something this deck has in droves, between Thirst for Knowledge, Trinket Mage for spellbomb and Auriok Salvagers recurring spellbomb or Engineered Explosives losing a card is not an issue. Merchant Scroll also allows this deck to keep up the pace with tutoring for Thirst for Knowledge or Brainstorm and digging thru' the deck.

Running Swords to Plowshares is a huge mistake, naming Swords to Plowshares with Meddling Mage against Threshold is your number one priority in that match up. You do not need any more answers to Goblin Lackey on the play with 4 Pyrite Spellbomb, 4 Mishra's Factory, 4 Meddling Mage and Chrome Mox to accelerate Trinket Mage and Merchant Scroll for Force of Will or some other counter spell. Post board the deck is going to bring in Pyroclasm, and at that point you want the Goblin Lackey to connect.

vigilante
06-25-2007, 05:36 AM
OK, if we go along with your assurances that Merchant Scroll for Force is important enough to justify the 3-for-1 card disadvantage, how exactly is this deck better than Salvagers Game/Golden Grahams again? SG has a full suite of both Duress and Cabal Therapy to proactively deal with opposing countermagic (whereas this deck has to set up a situation where it can play Salvagers and keep mana and/or cards in hand open for a counter-war). SG has Pernicious Deeds and a Living Wish toolbox (in addition to the aforementioned Duresses and Therapies) to deal with Meddling Mages or any other hate that gets thrown at it, whereas this version has only countermagic, an Aether Spellbomb, and a lone Cunning Wish to deal with hate.

What I'm seeing here is a Vintage deck ported into a format that's not friendly towards Vintage strategies. Salvagers Game just seems much better equipped to deal with the sorts of opposing strategies and hate that Legacy serves up, and has the ability to adopt both fast (ie. utilising Dark Ritual) and slow (ie. more controlling, with Deeds and hand disruption) routes to victory. The version proposed here seems like pure control with combo win condition, and pure control is notoriously weak in Legacy.

BreathWeapon
06-25-2007, 06:18 AM
OK, if we go along with your assurances that Merchant Scroll for Force is important enough to justify the 3-for-1 card disadvantage, how exactly is this deck better than Salvagers Game/Golden Grahams again? SG has a full suite of both Duress and Cabal Therapy to proactively deal with opposing countermagic (whereas this deck has to set up a situation where it can play Salvagers and keep mana and/or cards in hand open for a counter-war). SG has Pernicious Deeds and a Living Wish toolbox (in addition to the aforementioned Duresses and Therapies) to deal with Meddling Mages or any other hate that gets thrown at it, whereas this version has only countermagic, an Aether Spellbomb, and a lone Cunning Wish to deal with hate.

What I'm seeing here is a Vintage deck ported into a format that's not friendly towards Vintage strategies. Salvagers Game just seems much better equipped to deal with the sorts of opposing strategies and hate that Legacy serves up, and has the ability to adopt both fast (ie. utilising Dark Ritual) and slow (ie. more controlling, with Deeds and hand disruption) routes to victory. The version proposed here seems like pure control with combo win condition, and pure control is notoriously weak in Legacy.

Merchant Scroll for Force of Will and then countering an opponent's spell is not -2 card advantage, it's -1 card advantage, because the Force of Will replaces the Merchant Scroll and then removes another blue card from the game.

Gamekeeper/Salvagers is a board control-combo deck that loses the combo mirror, and in an environment that's defined by storm combo that's not acceptable. Bomberman has Force of Will, Meddling Mage and at least one other counter spell for protection, Pyrite Spellbomb or Aether Spellbomb for removal and a Trinket Mage tool box, so the disruption is even to Gamekeeper/Salvagers in quantity and superior in quality.

I think you've drastically misinterpreted this deck, Bomberman is an aggro-control deck first and foremost, it's designed to Force of Will the opponent's critical opening card and then Meddling Mage his strategy so the deck can play Mishra's Factorys, Trinket Mages and Auriok Salvagers to apply pressure. The Pyrite Spellbombs remove the opponent's threats, the Trinket Mage doubles the number of Pyrite Spellbombs in the deck and the Auriok Salvagers recurs the Pyrite Spellbombs to keep up the board control (substitute Pyrite Spellbomb with Engineered Explosives where applicable). As Bomberman is pressuring the opponent and controlling the board, it's playing Brainstorm, Thirst for Knowledge and either Condescend/Merchant Scroll to dig thru' the deck for additional threats/removal/counters and if it finds Lion's Eye Diamond it can win immediately.

That's the generic game plan, altho' against aggro-control the game plan changes into using Meddling Mage to stop Swords to Plowshares, using Pyrite Spellbomb to remove opposing Meddling Mages, using Trinket Mage to find Engineered Explosives and remove Meddling Mage and/or Tarmogofys, using Merchant Scroll to build up a counter wall, using Force of Will to protect your cards and counter your opponent's cards and churning thru' the rest of the deck as fast as possible.

The deck maintains the aggro, control and combo roles all at the same time, and that's what is really appealing about the deck.

vigilante
06-25-2007, 07:22 AM
The only decklist I've seen (and hence, the only list I've been discussing) is the original one, which has no Meddling Mages, Mishra's Factories, Pyrite Spellbombs, Condescends, Tarmogoyfs or any of the other cards you've mentioned. By the sound of it, you're discounting my statements regarding the original deck by citing examples of strategies from your version. If you have an alternative decklist you'd like to discuss, perhaps you ought to post it before continuing. Regarding the original list, your statement
I think you've drastically misinterpreted this deck, Bomberman is an aggro-control deck first and foremost is laughable. Trinket Mage beatdown FTW?

I think you underestimate Salvagers Game's chances against opposing combo. Its disruption suite comes online turn 1 (only a turn after the 4 Forces in Bomberman do), and Dark Ritual gives SG the ability to play multiple copies of those spells on turn one. Alternatively, SG can pull off (admittedly unlikely) turn 1 and 2 kills of it's own, more than fast enough to go toe to toe with storm combo.

Silverdragon
06-25-2007, 02:07 PM
The obvious differences between this deck and Salvager Game are the less fragile manabase (U/w versus BG/wr) and counterspells over discard. The speed is comparable but Salvager Game has more redundancy in the form of tutors. This deck however is mainly a controldeck with the combo as a second thought. Thanks to the Top Counterbalance engine it should be able to stand up and outcontrol a lot of aggro-control and control decks with an equally good to better combo matchup than Salvager Game.
You don't have to tell me that Counterbalance is slow and utterly crap against Goblins. I know that but this card is insane against almost everything else.
My main goal was not to make a superior Salvager Game but to make a Counterbalance deck with a combo finish. I apologize if this wasn't clear from my opening post. The reason I tried to port Bomberman was because it looked like a promising Counterbalance shell.
On to the Meddling Mage suggestion. I believe that Meddling Mage isn't needed as additional disruption because Counterbalance currently fills his slot more or less. I could see myself playing Pikula because he's an additional beater speeding up my clock and chumping but I'm sure there are better cards for this.
For now I'll try the red splash for Pyrite Spellbomb and Pyroclasm as additional removal against Goblins taking out the Sunbeam Spellbomb and the Remands.
Thanks for the comments so far

BreathWeapon
06-25-2007, 04:54 PM
The only decklist I've seen (and hence, the only list I've been discussing) is the original one, which has no Meddling Mages, Mishra's Factories, Pyrite Spellbombs, Condescends, Tarmogoyfs or any of the other cards you've mentioned. By the sound of it, you're discounting my statements regarding the original deck by citing examples of strategies from your version. If you have an alternative decklist you'd like to discuss, perhaps you ought to post it before continuing. Regarding the original list, your statement is laughable. Trinket Mage beatdown FTW?

I think you underestimate Salvagers Game's chances against opposing combo. Its disruption suite comes online turn 1 (only a turn after the 4 Forces in Bomberman do), and Dark Ritual gives SG the ability to play multiple copies of those spells on turn one. Alternatively, SG can pull off (admittedly unlikely) turn 1 and 2 kills of it's own, more than fast enough to go toe to toe with storm combo.

One of the things that people don't see on paper and do see on the board is that the lands, counters, tutors and win conditions come with 2/2+, 2/2, 2/2 and 2/4 bodies attached to them. These bodies add up fast, and combined with Pyrite Spellbomb, Engineered Explosives, Trinket Mage tutoring for Pyrite Spellbomb or Engineered Explosives and Auriok Salvagers recurring Pyrite Spellbomb or Engineered Explosives, you can overwhelm your opponent. As long as you keep Aether Vial off the board and counter the Goblin Ringleader, you actually have a chance to out aggro Goblins by using your tempo against them.

This is one of my all time favorite games,

Turn one: Land, Chrome Mox, Meddling Mage naming Aether Vial
Opp one: Land, Goblin Lackey
Turn two: Mishra's Factory, Trinket Mage->Pyrite Spellbomb
Opp two: Land, Goblin Piledriver
Turn three: Land, Pyrite Spellbomb, activate, Pyrite Spellbomb, activate and attack for four.
Opp three: Land, Goblin Warchief, attack for 2.
Turn four: Land, Brainstorm, Trinket Mage->Pyrite Spellbomb, Pyrite Spellbomb, attack for four
Opp four: Land, Goblin Ringleader, reveal Goblin Matron, Gempalm Incinerator, Mogg Fanatic and cast Mogg Fanatic
Turn Five: Mishra's Factory, activate Pyrite Spellbomb on Goblin Warchief, Meddling Mage naming Goblin Matron, activate Mishra's Factory (1), activate Mishra's Factory (2) for +1/1 attack for 5 losing Meddling Mage on Aether Vial and Trinket Mage.
Opp five: Wasteland, activate Wasteland on Mishra's Factory, Goblin Piledriver, Goblin Piledriver.
Turn six: Brainstorm, Trinket Mage->Engineered Explosives
Opp six: Wasteland, activate on Mishra's Factory, Gempalm Incinerator on Meddling Mage, Mogg Fanatic, attack for 6.
Turn seven: Land, Engineered Explosives for 2, activate Engineered Explosives, attack for 2 losing Trinket Mage to Mogg Fanatic
Opp seven: Goblin Matron for Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Lackey
Turn eight: Land, Auriok Salvagers, attack losing Trinket Mage to Goblin Matron and Goblin Lackey.
Opp eight: Goblin Ringleader revealing Goblin Matron, Tin Street Hooligan.
Turn nine: Mishra's Factory, recur Pyrite Spellbomb, Pyrite Spellbomb, activate Pyrite Spellbomb and attack for 2.
Opp nine: Land, Goblin Matron for Goblin Ring Leader, Tin Street Hooligan targeting Chrome Mox.
Turn ten: Recur Pyrite Spellbomb, Pyrite Spellbomb, activate Pyrite Spellbomb on Tin Street Hooligan and attack to kill Goblin Matron.
Opp ten: Rishadan Port, Goblin Ringleader revealing Goblin Ringleader, Goblin Warchief and Gempalm Incinerator.
Turn eleven: Recur Pyrite Spellbomb, Pyrite Spellbomb, activate Pyrite Spellbomb and attack for 2.
Opp ten: Opp says: "Can Pyrite Spellbomb target players?" I say: "Yes"

Scoop

I never saw a Lion's Eye Diamond the whole game, my opponent found all four Goblin Ringleaders and it still wasn't enough to stop me from burning him out.

This is the list I was using pre-Flash,

4 Auriok Salvagers
4 Trinket Mage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Condescend
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
4 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mishra's Factory
15 Lands

I tested Remand, Condescend, Miscalculation and Merchant Scroll in the counter slot and all of them had their strengths and weaknesses. Condescend over all seems to be the most consistent, but I cried every time I went

Turn one: Mishra's Factory, Chrome Mox go.
Opp one: City of Brass, Xantid Swarm (Wait!) Condescend for 1 (Wait!) Simian Spirit Guide.

against combo. The coolest thing about the card is that it can be used as an instant speed Serum Visions with out the draw a card, which is what makes it one of my favorite cards.

I know Bardo has a similar list he's been using for awhile.

The last thing I want to try using is Burning Wish instead of the second counter to turn dead Chrome Moxes and Lion's Eye Diamonds into storm for Empty the Warrens and to turn dead lands into tokens for Decree of Justice with spot/mass removal and card draw.

The SB I drafted is like,

1 Empty the Warrens
1 Decree of Justice
1 Deep Analysis
1 Resurrection
1 Demon Fire
1 Rolling Earthquake
1 Shattering Spree
1 Cleanfall
1 Morningtide
1 Armageddon
1 Boiling Seas
4 Jotun Grunt

Edit: @Silverdragon, Now I see what you're going for, you truncated the Aether Spellbombs and Lion's Eye Diamonds to turn the deck into a two card combo with Auriok Salvagers and Trinket Mage to just play a combo-control deck with Balance/Top instead of playing an aggro-control-combo deck. That's a really interesting idea that never occurred to me. At that rate, you should probably ditch Thirst for Knowledge for Inuition so you have another card that can tutor for both of the artifacts, Auriok Slavagers or Deep Analysis and add a crap load of removal for Goblins to deal with.

kirdape3
06-25-2007, 06:48 PM
Just as an FYI, you Merchant Scroll in Vintage to make sure you immediately don't die. Card advantage falls by the wayside when you need the defenses immediately. Here, you have that option (because there are combo decks that will just kill you) to run the defensive Scroll play, but you can also Merchant it up and sit on it until you're ready to win. I'm not sure how good it is compared to the existing 'make a Gamekeeper and ship it to Therapy' option, but Force of Will defends you on their first turn when you're on the draw.

Vigilante: How he'd be comboing is literally by making infinite mana, drawing most of his deck, and then playing all of his creatures and bouncing all of the other guy's with Spellbomb. You now have something like 16 power on the board and a fully stocked hand to their board of nothing. Good luck there.

Top/Counterbalance though is not all that insane. I personally wouldn't mind seeing Top stay in the deck, since it's still pretty good (you have enough shufflers to reload the top of your deck when you want to), but Counterbalance is only useful in a select number of matchups. Sideboarding them seems fine. You're going to want a way to shore up the Goblins matchup; running Stifles might not be a bad idea.

Silverdragon
06-25-2007, 10:56 PM
Updated first post with a new list at the bottom.
6 Fetchlands are miles better than 4! The red splash improved the deck a little bit (being able to win the game immediately was relevant one game I played). Cunning Wish is better than Thirst for Knowledge but Thirst is still good. There was one situation where I wished I had Intuitions but that was as my last out against Goblins (going for 3 Pyroclasm) after I had drawn all Chrome Moxes on consecutive turns (damn you MWS shuffler). The sideboard has changed a bit including various Shatter variants and Blasts but I still haven't tested it.

BreathWeapon
06-25-2007, 11:08 PM
Merchant Scroll is a card more decks should be using, because Counter Spell just isn't a good card and Merchant Scroll adds the same amount of disruption while increasing the draw/tutoring. I could see GAT with Chrome Mox and Merchant Scroll being a strong deck right now, or even U/g/w Threshold if it wanted to add a Echoing Truth as an answer for Empty the Warrens on the play or a Fact or Fiction for gas.

That said, I'm pleased with Condescend in this deck. You get to go Chrome Mox, Mishra's Factory and then counter an opponent's spell and dig 2 cards deep, which is a big tempo boost in an aggro-control-combo deck. Even using the card as a pseudo Serum Visions is strong, because the deck is going to recoup the card disadvantage as soon as it resolves a Trinket Mage, Thirst for Knowledge or Auriok Salvagers.

Silverdragon
06-28-2007, 03:47 AM
I replaced Thirst for Knowledge with Predict to get a better curve and so far it performs at least as good thanks to Top.
I really want to fit in more land and I also want to cut some Chrome Moxen and Ancient Tombs but I'm afraid that I'll lose a lot of games because I can't get to 4 mana fast enough. Any advise how the mana could be improved?
I didn't get Pyrite Spellbomb with Mage once but nonetheless it was invaluable a lot of times. Contrary I'll almost always get the Aether Spellbomb if I can afford the time because you can bounce your own Mage and get another trinket.
I'd say about 95% of my preboard games are finished by the combo but only 50% postboard because of various hatecards that get boarded in that you don't have the time/ressources to play around so exchanging LED for some beater might be a good plan although a random LED can still be good if your opponent doesn't draw his hate.
The next changes I'll be testing include Mishra's Factory (replacing some Tombs), Meddling Mage (dunno what to cut for them) and Dream Stalker (sb against Goblins).