[DECK] GBR aggro control AKA GAGOMY AKA Zoo

[zulander]

Well after my horrible day at regionals last weekend I got to thinking why I even bothered playing such a dull format, this led to me start thinking about some legacy-vintage decks I wanted to work on(I will stick with my legacy thoughts since these are the legacy boards Razz). I knew I wanted to play 3 cards in the deck. 1. Tarmogoyf 2. Negator 3. Kird Ape followed with burn and duress. So with this thinking I consulted the Red Death guy himself (AKA Mr.LadiesMan AKA Anwar) about the possibilities of splashing green in Red Death for Tarmogofy. He said he already started the testing and found good results. I have no clue what his list is like so I decided to put b/g/r aggro-control deck together on my own, and without further ado... here it is!

Mana : 21
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
1 Swamp


Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Disruption : 17
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Duress
4 Hymn
1 Engineered Explosives

Other : 6
3 Jitte
3 Call of the Herd

Sideboard : 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg

Goblins
With 8 burn, 4 hymn and 3 jitte the disruption isn't bad at all game one. Goyfs and Apes and call tokens usually stay alive after they attack taking down their guys and bobs will always trade. If you can ensure that they don't get goblins on the field negator will wreck face. Having said all this the matchup is fairly close but with the edge in game 1 going to goblins by about 5%. Game 1 is very winnable.

Game 2 I usually side out duress for plagues, depending on the build though it's not unusual to side out the gators for plagues as well. Resolving 1 plague isn't always gg because they expect it for the most part and bring in krosan grips/seal of cleansing for jitte as well. However, plagues win so many games especially when you get multiples that the matchup swings in your favor about 60-65% game 2.

Game 3 is totally dependent on game 2. If you wreck their face they'll usually side in more hate so if you haven't taken out the gators now is the time. If the game was close they'll usually stay with their game 2 board and hope for a better hand. Your best card game 3 will be bob, and if he stays in play even if it's for 2 turns the matchups are usually the same as game 3. Otherwise they are about 50-50.

Thresh
I don't know why but I love playing against thresh with this deck. Game 1 has been about 60% in your favor if they're playing white, if they have red splash it can be a bit more difficult but still in your favor. Your disruption suite as well as large creatures win you this game. The MVP is almost always call of the herd because your goyfs are evened out by theirs.

Game 2 I bring in 4 crypts but what I take out depends on their build. White splash with 16 cantrips I take out kird ape(since he looses to mongoose anyways). After boarding the matchups move about 5% in your favor. If you know they're going to board in balance/top then bring in krosan grips as well.

Game 3 If you win game 2 resort to the original list making their game 3 board obsolete(only if you see them boarding). Otherwise you'll have to decide whether or not your game 2 board is worth keeping.

Cephalid Breakfast
Game 1 is 50-50. Your seals will force them into drawing multiple combo pieces while giving you time to beat face.

Game 2/3 I'd recomend bringing in 4 crypts and 3 powder kegs. Take out call of the herd and 4 other cards of your choice. Kird ape seems like a card to take out since your first couple turns should be disrupt disrupt disrupt followed by a goyf/gator to put them on a clock.

I'll have to post some more matchups later on when I get home from work and maybe a couple more in the next couple days as I get more testing in.

[zulander]

1.5 Report, 06-23-07

At our local 1.5 event this week I decided to play this over belcher/goblins to see how far it has come along, and hopefully sneak into the top 8.
So without further ado... here we go!


Round 1 VS Black Stax
Game 1 : Earlier on in the week we playtested this matchup and I got rocked 5-0 preboard... embarassing.. However, today I had my revenge. Game one he resolves some early beats but Mr.Tin-Street comes into play and blows up one of his guys. The game gets close and he has a resolved chalice for 1 while I have double kird ape, Double bolt, and a duress in hand. I have negator, thornweald and 3 lands while he has negator, chalice for 1, and 2 lands in play swing and he ends up saccing everything while I do the same, but I float R and bolt his face for the win.


Side : in 4 Krosan Grip Out : 3 cabal therapy 1 kird ape

Game 2 : He plays an early juggernaut turn 2 and I bolt him. He plays Chalice for 1 (again...) while my hand is full of one drops but I resolve a thornweald. He gets Negator on the board and I topdeck a krosan grip and hit chalice for one. I have 1 red source on the board so I play an ape. He can't really attack or he'd lose his board so he plays draw, go for a couple turns. I put down seal of fires 2 turns in a row and hitting his negator which leaves his side of board with 2 lands, mox diamond, negator, and a 4/4 artifact that I don't really remember. I end up just burning his gator until i resolve a goyf and win.


Round 2 : VS r/w goblins

Game 1 : I mull to five and loose to ringleader hitting piledriver, warchief and matron. He swings with 3 piledrivers, lacky, and warchief and I scoop.

Side : IN : 4 Plague, 3 Deed OUT : 4 Negator, 3 Duress

Game 2 : I have a deed on the board and a call token racing his 1 matron and 1 fanatic on the board. I get him to 4 life and I'm at 5. He plays a lacky and I swing on my turn, he chumps and swings for 2, puts a ringleader in play putting 2 siege gangs in his hand. I deed for 4 and clear the board. He's sitting on only 3 lands so I play tin-street. He plays matron on his turn tapping out for warchief. On my turn I should have flashed back cabal therapy naming siege gang, instead I act like a bonehead and swing. He chumps, plays warchief and proceeds to kill me.


Round 3 : VS r/g goblins

Game 1 : I mull to five and get rapped again... ( I hate this against goblins)

I use the same sideboard plan.

Game 2 : I have an o/1 goyf on turn 2 after his turn 1 lacky. He makes a mistake in cycling his incinerator not realising that incinerator hits the gy before dealing damage and my goyf is now a 1/2. I get a turn 3 plague on the board and proceed to start killing him with a 1/2 goyf.. lOl! I then resolve jitte and he scoops.

Game 3 : I get a plague on turn 3 after taking 6 from his ringleader/fanatic. He grips it 2 turns later but gets stuck on 3 land. I therapy naming ringleader, play goyf. Next turn I play ape flashing therapy back getting his siegegang, play and equip jitte and he scoops.

I make top 8 2-1.


Top 8 Round 1 : VS 4c thresh.

I know he's playing thresh and get excited. I have a great matchup vs threash because of the numerous threats I have. Thornweald owns their flyers, we split goyfs, I have turn 1 kird apes and not to mention the card advantage Call of the Herd provides. I have disruption in duress, therapy, wasteland and L.Bolt. THe only bad Card I have in here is Negator because of the red he's playing.

Game 1 : I play therapy on predict turn one, duress on his counterspell turn 2, and I play kirdape/flashback cabal on his brainstorm turn 3. All the while he's stuck on one land because of the hand he kept (couldn't find land 2 off portent/serum visions 2 turns in a row.) I play Goyf and get a jitte to resolve and win.

Sideboard : IN : 4 leyline OUT : 4 Negator

Game 2 : He plays turn 1 goose. I play turn one duress and hit his predict. He get's a volc out and I waste it, and pretty much resolve anything I want because he can't find his cards.

So top 4 ends up splitting for $20 each and I pickup another badlands/bayou and buy a box of Future Sight (got nothing good other than another goyf).



So... Overall I really enjoyed the deck today with the only exception being me playing like an idiot and giving away game 2 in round 2 to goblins. If I had played smart I may have been able to force a game 3 and who knows what could have happend.

As for the decklist itself I don't see any changes coming up anytime soon, I had plenty of disruption all day and confidant played a major roll in helping me topdeck. And for everyone out there, thronweald is freakin tech. I can't tell you how many times in testing I've played him and just stopped my opponents from attacking.

Well I hope you enjoyed the report (I'm sorry if it got too boring) and I'll see you guys same bat time same bat channel with next weeks report!

[Cidolfus]

On the surface Tarmogoyf doesn't seem that strong in the deck. What's your judgement on him with your play experience? Would something like Mogg Fanatic or Rotting Giant been stronger in this slot?

[zulander]

He's the strongest creature in the deck by far. The deck runs at least 4 of every card type (except artifacts, only 2 of them). The only time he was less than a 3/4 was in a game against goblins where I played him turn 2 with nothing int he gy, and by the end of that turn he was 2/3.

[Team-Hero]

On the surface Tarmogoyf doesn't seem that strong in the deck. What's your judgement on him with your play experience? Would something like Mogg Fanatic or Rotting Giant been stronger in this slot?

What makes him strong is the opponent's deck as well. Goblins is a hard matchup for Tarmogoyf because they only run creatures and lands... maybe a vial goes to the graveyard. But against other decks Tarmogoyf grows really fast even if you haven't done much on your behalf. It all depends on the opponent's deck as much as yours. He is by far the best green creature in Legacy right now.

[BreathWeapon]

I think I can help out here, in order for Tarmogoyf to be "The Nuts" you need 4 Land Grant, 4 Wastelands, X Fetchlands and then 4 Seal of Fire and 4 Pyrite Spellbomb as your burn compliment.

It's not unusual for turn one Wooded Foothills->Mountain, Seal of Fire (go) Turn two Land Grant->Forest, Tarmogoyf and then sacrifice Seal of Fire to kill a creature to put Tarmogoyf at 4/5 on turn 2.

I also suggest looking into Rancor, Reckless Charge and Fireblast.

Edit: I agree with Tin Street Hooligan, hell I'd run 4 of them, because they'll win you games against Goblins, Belcher and Stompy decks you shouldn't otherwise win.

[Cidolfus]

As good as Ugly may be, I don't feel his presence justifies the use of subpar cards like Pyrite Spellbomb--maybe Seal of Fire, considering the sorcery count is moderately high from Cabal and Duress--otherwise I'd take Chain Lightning over it.

I also think this deck could really benefit from 4 Rancors. Zoo decks that splash green generally do so for Kird Ape, Troll Ascetic and Rancor. You have Negator in Ascetic's spot, and I'm not going to take away from that flavor--I like it. But Rancor would be a great addition. I would probably cut a land, cut a burn, and cut the archers for the rancors.

[zulander]

I can't cut the land, I'm already down to 21 sources for 3 color deck, and with 4 being wastelands I only have 17 lands to work with, which is the bare minimum for 8 fetches, protection from wasteland and the occasional sacrifice I need to make for negator I honestly can't justify loosing a land to add in rancor. I've honestly tried rancor in this deck and everytime I've had it I've always wanted something else. With the 8 burn spells, 2 Jittes, and 3 cabal therapies I've never really had a problem swinging through.

And adding in spellbomb's just for goyf is something I haven't tried, but in all honesty I can't justify replacing lightning bolt for it. 2 mana for 2 damage is pretty bad when it's not in the shape of magma jet, even then it's not even close to as good as lightning bolt. And with the amount of artifacts in the meta along with the tin streets in the main I'm not so sure I need to run them to help out goyf.

As far as running 4 tin-streets I have thought about replacing archers with them. I think I'll test that out this week and post the results.

And if you guys put the deck together and test it out, please post some results.

[Happy Gilmore]

I think I can help out here.

I truely enjoy your definition of help. Seriously though, from what I saw of the deck being played Cabal Therapy was golden all over the place. Negator seemed hit or miss, I can certainly see it being switched out for something else depending on the meta.

I would suggest:

-3 Call
-2 Archers
+1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Jitte
+3 Sarcomancy

Call of the Herd is a great spell but you will probably have you mana tied up most of the time already.

[Jak]

I have been tinkering with a deck like this because Negator and goyf are just good together. So here is the list I threw together.

Lands
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Kird Ape
4 Sarcomancy
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Negator

Burn
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

Disruption
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy

SB
3 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Extirpate
4 Pyroblast

Thoughts?

[Barook]

Jak's lists looks better, but I'm also of the opinion that the deck needs Rancor - it's just way too good here:

Sarcomancy or Kird Ape followed up by Rancor on Turn 2 puts alot of pressure on the opponent which is always a good thing. Tarmogoyf + Rancor needs no further explanation. Rancor can also feed good ol' Gator if needed.

As awesome as Fireblast is, is it really needed here, especially as 4-of? :confused:

Edit: I also think Fanatic is a bit underwhelming here. You're already running 12 1cc burn spells which should be enough to deal with utility creatures and similiar crap. How about Carnophage instead? It's also capable of stoping Lackey, but it would also have synergy with Sarcomancy, not to mention giving you twelve 1cc 2-power beaters which beg for being rancored on turn 2. Sounds like an excellent plan to me.

Edit 2: If the decks goes into the direction of some kind of Dark Zoo, I think it needs a better name. I vote for Pet Sematary.

Edit 3: I did some goldfishing to figure out a raw build. That's the result:

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
3 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

Creatures
4 Carnophage
4 Kird Ape
4 Sarcomancy
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Phyrexian Negator

Burn
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

Disruption
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy

The manabase isn't fixed yet and could still need some tweaks, but i think overall, it looks solid (at least on the paper). I'm not sure about replacing Seal of Fire with Dark Confidant, but the deck does already run 8 enchantments that could hit the graveyard. The main reason to include Bob is the ridiculous low curve. When I find the time, i'll test this build.

[zulander]

The deck needs wasteland IMHO. I'd also rather not turn this into 1cc creatures.dec. The purpose of the deck is to play disruption then lead into a turn 2/3 game changing creature. IMO the best turn one play is taiga/kird ape, and after that would be seal/duress/therapy. The reason I don't want sarc/carn and rancors in the deck is because chalice @1 already cripples the deck, if we went the sarc/carn/rancor route chalice @ 1 is basically GG. Especially if you're taking out the tin-streets for these guys.

As for the removal of call/wasteland. I personally like wasteland in the deck a lot as well as the card advantage call brings in. Against the tier 1 decks right now it's a house. Thresh needs 2 counters to stop him, and goblins doesn't like to face 2 3/3's on the board, especially if goyf is accompanying them.

Also here's a question. Has anyone been able to put the list I have posted up together and test it out? I'd like some feedback and maybe a mini report as to what you played against and how the deck did.

[TheCramp]

I have been tinkering with a deck like this because Negator and goyf are just good together.

Negator is also sweet with rancor. Not in a way that helps goyf, but in the way that conserves permanents. Sarcomancy too, not as tech with Negator, but synergystic with Goyf.

[Jak]

Sarcomancy is actually great with negator. Well I wanted to add rancor, but I felt I wanted more burn. I like burn. So I just cut it. :tongue:

[sammiel]

I actually think GBR is insane and the properly tuned list could be a wrecking ball. Since this is out there, I'll post my own list. Mine isn't really tuned yet, the lands and SB are still a mess.

4x Bayou
4x Badlands
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire

4x Kird Ape
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Phyrexian Negator
3x Grim Lavamancer

4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Rancor
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Duress
4x Seal of Fire
3x Chain Lightning

SB

Ancient Grudge or Hooligan or Krosan Grip, Tormod's Crypt or Extirpate, and then some engineered explosives/plague for ETW.

I refuse to run subpar crap just to make Tarmogoyf bigger, except for Seal of Fire. I wouldn't quite call it crap, it's definitely subpar, but it's definitely not bad, and has performed well for me. I only have bolt as my instant, but every other deck that isn't goblins will put an instant in yard for me, and if I never put a creature in the yard, it probably means I'm winning anyway.

Anyway, the only way an aggro deck can really be successful in legacy is to either cheat (lackey/vial) or run undercosted threats (millions of examples).

I can't cheat, so I've focused on running lots of undercosted threats, Kird Ape is probably the best beater in the format as a one-drop, Grim Lavamancer provides reach, removal, and very rarely conflicts with Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf is a beast, I've never had him be less than a 2/3, he usually manages 4/5. Confidant is desperately needed card advantage, and can be a threat with rancor. Negator is a 5/5 trampler for 3 with a drawback that is seldom relevant.

[Hummingbird TG]

You need Cabal Therapy. you have so many creatures, and a turn 2 Hymn is rarely optimal as you'd want to put pressure.

BTW,


the only way an aggro deck can really be successful in legacy is to either cheat (lackey/vial)

Ah. The next time I play Gobbos I'm gonna call them on cheating the moment I see a vial or lackey.:wink:

[zulander]

I'm really happy with the feedback on the forums, there's some great positive criticism going on here. Hopefully I can tinker with the deck this Friday night with my play test group and come up with a much more in depth primer. And since people have noted that the deck needs a new name and since I live right by DC, what do you guys think of calling it DC Zoo?

[TheCramp]

And since people have noted that the deck needs a new name and since I live right by DC, what do you guys think of calling it DC Zoo?

What, and take all the fun away from us fighting over wether its Dark Gruul, Red Rock, or Chartreuse Rakdos... No way!

Now is the time to form factions and take sides damn it... Sides I said!

[Cidolfus]

This is what I see as the optimal build:

3x Bayou
3x Badlands
3x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Bloodstained Mire
x1 Forest
x1 Swamp
x1 Mountain

x4 Kird Ape
x4 Tarmogoyf
x4 Sarcomancy
x4 Phyrexian Negator

x4 Duress
x4 Rancor
x4 Umezawa's Jitte

x4 Lightning Bolt
x4 Chain Lightning
x4 Seal of Fire

Some notes:

I think that Jitte is far too powerful in a deck with 16 creatures not to used. Even as a 4 of.

I don't feel the deck can support Cabal Therapy with 16 creatures. Therapies could be kept in the SB for combo.

I'm up in the air over Dark Confidant, but I feel he's better in aggro-control decks--since this deck is 94% aggro, with a 6% dash for duress. There have been countless debates over this, and for additional information I advise reading the Suicide Black thread. Because he doesn't draw cards right away, and because he's only a 2/1 for 2 mana I would rather not run him in a nigh-pure aggro deck.

Negator and the ugly goyf have excellent synergy with the cards of this deck. Negator can sack rancors and they return to your hand. There's a mix of enchantments, sorceries, fetchlands, instants and dead burned creatures so Ugly will never be hungry. I also like that Negator can eat seal of fire when it's sitting unused, and eat an unused Jitte when needed (and perhaps follow up by dropping a new Jitte because you run 4)--which powers the goyf with a rare artifact in the graveyard.

All-in-all I like how the deck is progressing.

One thing to consider: Between Rancor (which could be put to the graveyard from discard effects), Seal of Fire and Sarcomancy, you may want to replace Seal of Fire with a more efficient burn spell since the enchantment slot may be adequately complimented. Perhaps running Magma Jet would be ideal. Godzilla in his zilla stompy thread even stated he would run Magma Jet over even Lightning Bolt for aggro decks. If not Magma Jet than Incinerate for the more conservative types. The deck only runs 4 lightning bolts as it's other instants as it is.

[zulander]

To be honest I would never run an "aggro" deck with only 16 creatures, especially against a format where goblins is present, and what's worse is when 4 of those creatures are negator. Kird ape is great because he survives the 2/2's that goblins throw onto the table, but sarcomancy just trades. Thus leaving you with just 8 creatures that actually affect the goblin match up. And it also leaves you with 8 dead cards in your hand, 4 gators and 4 duress. Not to mention the extra copies of jitte.

Cid, I'd recomend that you try the original list against a couple of decks and then inform us of your testing results. In my testing with my original list goblins has about a 60/40 advantage preboard. Post board it swings to 65 in your favor. Along with the 3/3 duress/therapy split allowing you to wreck combo/threshold early on in the game. The 2 archers are also there mainly as anti-goyf tech because of the number of goyfs present in this legacy meta game. This is going to be one of those decks that will vary in meta's because of it's flexibilities.

EDIT : As far as rancor goes I'll try -2 archer -2 tinstreet's and add in 4 rancor's. I think the deed's will also be taken out of the board and replace them with 3 smothers.

EDIT 2 : And I do agree with you, goyf's picture is freakin fugly.

EDIT 3 : As far as confidant goes, he usually wins you games. Especially when it's mid to late game he gets you that extra bolt/duress/cal of the herd/jitte you need and freakin owns. If he starts to hit you for too much you can always flash back therapy with him and he's still helping out even then.

[Hummingbird TG]

Please don't call this Zoo if it's Aggro Control. The Zoo has historically been an Aggro deck.

On the Confidants, I cannot agree less, a beater with card draw is always welcome. he is also a threat which they need to answer, forcing them to find many answers to all your threats...

[thefreakaccident]

honestly, there are to many deck lists on this thread already... I think I counted 4 on the first page.

Personally, I perferred the first list over the others mainly due to the super secret tech it had that the others did not.

Call of the herd is good, and should not be cut... 1 card that can make a creature whenever at two separate occasions (not to mention on nice firm
3/3 bodies)... rancor is a horible 'win more' card that does not change the game that much (I think jitte is a lot ore devastating than rancor against the gobbo MU).. Jitte is just good enough in the 'equipment' slot of the deck.

I don't like seal or bomb much, but I can see the merit behind their inclusions.

Good luck with the deck (and by the deck I mean your list) Zulander, looks promising... Hell, I would try it out if I had badlands :).

[zulander]

honestly, there are to many deck lists on this thread already... I think I counted 4 on the first page.

Personally, I perferred the first list over the others mainly due to the super secret tech it had that the others did not.

Call of the herd is good, and should not be cut... 1 card that can make a creature whenever at two separate occasions (not to mention on nice firm
3/3 bodies)... rancor is a horible 'win more' card that does not change the game that much (I think jitte is a lot ore devastating than rancor against the gobbo MU).. Jitte is just good enough in the 'equipment' slot of the deck.

I don't like seal or bomb much, but I can see the merit behind their inclusions.

Good luck with the deck (and by the deck I mean your list) Zulander, looks promising... Hell, I would try it out if I had badlands :).

Haha you can, just proxy them in testing and let us know what you think. And thanks for the compliments! As for your notes on rancor/call I couldn't agree more. It just seems to me in my testing that everytime I drew a rancor I'd want something else.

[Samshire]

I'm interested in how this deck does against combo. The creatures are large, but they don't have haste and can't swing the turn they come into play. So can you race combo decks? Is there enough disruption to fight combo?

[AnwarA101]

Mana : 21
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Taiga
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Creatures : 20
4 Kird Ape
2 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Thornweald Archer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Disrupiton : 14
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

Other : 5
3 Call of the Herd
2 Jitte

Sideboard : 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
3 Extirpate/Pyroclasm/P.Deed




How do you like the 1 Mountain, 1 Forest, 1 Swamp configuration? I guess you need each color. It doesn't seem like its really based in any color, but maybe that will let it work.

How about cutting Leyline of the Void for Tormod's Crypt? It seems much easier to cast if you draw it and it does a good job of hosing graveyard based strategies anyway. Also, I don't like Pernicious Deed at all as it seems to hit all of your permanents as well. I wouldn't suggest Pyroclasm either as it can hit you pretty hard as well. How about running an additional Jitte in the board as well to improve the aggro matchups. Maybe you want to include more Tin-Streets as they could knock off Vials and other Equipment spells. Seems like an interesting build, though very different than what I was working on.

[zulander]

How do you like the 1 Mountain, 1 Forest, 1 Swamp configuration? I guess you need each color. It doesn't seem like its really based in any color, but maybe that will let it work.

How about cutting Leyline of the Void for Tormod's Crypt? It seems much easier to cast if you draw it and it does a good job of hosing graveyard based strategies anyway. Also, I don't like Pernicious Deed at all as it seems to hit all of your permanents as well. I wouldn't suggest Pyroclasm either as it can hit you pretty hard as well. How about running an additional Jitte in the board as well to improve the aggro matchups. Maybe you want to include more Tin-Streets as they could knock off Vials and other Equipment spells. Seems like an interesting build, though very different than what I was working on.
Honestly crypt isn't a bad idea, it adds more artifacts for goyf. As for pdeed I'm right there along with you, but last saturday I had about 5 minutes to make a sideboard and I didn't have a choice. Pyrcolasm doesn't really hose me all that much, apes/goyfs/negators/and call tokens live from a clasm, and I can always use counters on jitte to help the hooligans/archers as well.
Anwar, are you actually showing up this saturday or are you gonna be gone?
PS this is Zuhair btw.

[AnwarA101]

Honestly crypt isn't a bad idea, it adds more artifacts for goyf. As for pdeed I'm right there along with you, but last saturday I had about 5 minutes to make a sideboard and I didn't have a choice. Pyrcolasm doesn't really hose me all that much, apes/goyfs/negators/and call tokens live from a clasm, and I can always use counters on jitte to help the hooligans/archers as well.
Anwar, are you actually showing up this saturday or are you gonna be gone?
PS this is Zuhair btw.

Well Pyroclasm doesn't seem all that great with Negator. Call Tokens and Apes can die to Mogg Fanatic in response to your Pyroclasm. I don't think its too good in the Goblins matchup, maybe you could try Engineered Explosives? But I'm not sure what your matchups are like so its hard to say.

Yeah I knew it was you, Zuhair. I should be there, but what will I play? Maybe this! I don't care for the name Zoo, its bit boring. I think you should name it "Snakes & Arrows" as you have "Arrows" (you have Thornweald Archer and things you throw at people to beat them like Burn and Discard spells) and you have "Snakes" (all those crazy creatures that are out to kill your opponent and Tarmogoyf looks like a Snake from the head anyway!)

[zulander]

Don't play this, I'm playing this! Play the red death with green splash we discussed at regionals. As far as clasm is concerned, I honestly don't even think it's that needed in the goblins matchup, but I dunno lol. Maybe 1 jitte and 2 Pyroblasts for threshold matchups? I think those last 3 slots in the board will be game time decisions on Saturday. Who knows, I might bring some more tech that I was thinking of last week. But is tech really tech if it's bad? Lol.. we'll have to see.

[AnwarA101]

Don't play this, I'm playing this! Play the red death with green splash we discussed at regionals. As far as clasm is concerned, I honestly don't even think it's that needed in the goblins matchup, but I dunno lol. Maybe 1 jitte and 2 Pyroblasts for threshold matchups? I think those last 3 slots in the board will be game time decisions on Saturday. Who knows, I might bring some more tech that I was thinking of last week. But is tech really tech if it's bad? Lol.. we'll have to see.

At the Frog I would consider a board like this -

4 Krosan Grip
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives

You've got answers to Goblins, Belcher, Threhsold, Loam decks, and possibly Landstill though I'm not sure what you board against them. Would you board in Grip against Landstill to hit Crucible and Factory? I'm not sure you care about their other cards.

[TheCramp]

The 2 archers are also there mainly as anti-goyf tech because of the number of goyfs present in this legacy meta game. This is going to be one of those decks that will vary in meta's because of it's flexibilities.

EDIT : As far as rancor goes I'll try -2 archer -2 tinstreet's and add in 4 rancor's. I think the deed's will also be taken out of the board and replace them with 3 smothers.


I dislike the idea of cutting creatures for creature enchantments. I would yank the seals for them, if it weren’t for how wonky that move is curve wise. I know that this breaks rank with convention, but you don't have to play 4 rancor’s. Gasp, Howl, Noooo...

But its true. what about -1 archer or tinstreet -1 seal +2 rancor?

Seal's merit is that when its in the yard G-man gets bigger. None bad there. But I figure that rancor makes G-man bigger while it's in play, plus punches through for whatever else is sitting in the yard. Plus philosophy of fire wise Rancor outputs more damage, and this deck could benefit from that thinking, since strictly speaking Therapy and Duress don't kill your opponent. I think of rancor as jitte 3 and 4, but the non legendary version. Good against combo two since it has "haste."

Crypt seems like it nuzzels right up against goyf like a needy kitten. Leyline not so much.

(maybe with like a megrim and a opalescence out... equip megrim swing remove counters, duress you, oh shock!!! sorry punchy at work, 2nd to last day before unemployment, drinking coffee, better now.)

I like the main deck Tinstreets and I don't know what to think about the archers. Their really defensive (in a very pro-active way.) I guess their functionaly like a terror on legs. And having your terror beat in is some sweet in the right matchup. I will have to reserve judgment and test it. Color me intrigued. I am not for cutting them, that's for sure.

I have a RGB agro (loam/madness... keeps changing) deck that I am in the middel of retooling. I was wanting it to be less clever (ie madness, loaming) and more direct. You build has many of the chages I was considering, and many I had not thought of. So I'll test some version of this. Engenered Explosives in the side is the right choice over deed. I switched over long ago in my ongoing deck, never looked back.

@the deck list with 9 playsets of 1 drops... (that’s 36 cards)

Engendered explosives, Pernicious Deed, Crime//, Chalice, Trinispher. Have fun storming the castle boys...

[zulander]

Yeah, the archers are pretty sick against thresh specifically. Thresh usually lets them resolve because they don't consider it a threat, and then latter on in the game they're like "Frick!" because they used their stp's/bolts on negators/goyfs/apes lol.

As for EE what exactly would I board them in for... I can't see where they'd be that great because of the curve in this deck.
0 cc : 6 (Call tokens)
1 cc : 12
2 cc : 14
3 cc : 4 (Negator)

I guess putting EE on 3 would be the optimal play, but what decks would I be facing a bunch of 3cc permanents...?

I might try 2 Tinstreets/1 jitte or 3 pithing needle for random affinity/enchantress decks. Maybe 3 compost for when I play against you lol.

[zulander]

I think I'd like the last 3 slots to be combo slots so what do you guys think of null rod? Especially with the rise of belcher/tes.

Or maybe 1 jitte/duress/therapy?

[Phantom]

I really like Null Rod in the current meta but it does not belong in this deck (I think). It is at its best when you can accelerate it out against combo to stop their Moxen and LEDs. Pithing Needle is always solid out of the board, and more discard never hurts the combo matchup.

Don't overthink the Explosives. Sure, they may hit something you control, but no one is going to FORCE you to blow them, so basically it will only be card disadvantage when you decide that the card disadvantage is worth destroying that object (like trading 2 for 1 to remove Vial isn't exactly the end of the world). This is sort of like arguing against FoW because you have all these great blue cards that you don't want to pitch. It's your choice. If it's not worth 2-for-1ing yourself, don't.

[zulander]

Yeah, but what matchups would I bring them in against? I already have 4 Plagues for goblins and there aren't too many other crazy fast aggro decks that I can't already deal with in the main. I think pithing/null rod are going to be the leading contenders. I guess testing will be in order.

[Phantom]

Yeah, but what matchups would I bring them in against?

Explosives?

TES, Belcher, Countersliver, Thresh, Fish, Elves, Zoo, Enchantress (maybe), Salvagers (maybe?) B/x Aggro, Loam, etc.

I can understand not running them, but they are pretty damn versitile.

[zulander]

How does this help vs belcher/tes? Just the goblin tokens?

[sammiel]

honestly, there are to many deck lists on this thread already... I think I counted 4 on the first page.

Personally, I perferred the first list over the others mainly due to the super secret tech it had that the others did not.

Call of the herd is good, and should not be cut... 1 card that can make a creature whenever at two separate occasions (not to mention on nice firm
3/3 bodies)... rancor is a horible 'win more' card that does not change the game that much (I think jitte is a lot ore devastating than rancor against the gobbo MU).. Jitte is just good enough in the 'equipment' slot of the deck.

I don't like seal or bomb much, but I can see the merit behind their inclusions.

Good luck with the deck (and by the deck I mean your list) Zulander, looks promising... Hell, I would try it out if I had badlands :).

calling rancor a horrible win more card just smacks of ignorance. It gets all your creatures through chump blockers, and if you run weaker creatures like lavamancer/confidant it turns them into much more serious threats. Seal of Fire is one of the first cards I would pull from my list, but rancor is incredible. Call of the Herd is worthy of testing and maybe a SB slot against control.

All the lists with no disruption except 4x duress seem like they are just conceding game 1 against combo. I like Hymn as my secondary disruption spell, and for SB I would have either REB or Cabal Therapy depending on the metagame as additional disruption. I've been thinking maybe magma jet or smother in the board for the goblins matchup, as you definitely need targeted removal to back up your fatties, and having instants in the yard for goyf is handy too.

[sammiel]

windfury post

[zulander]

While the double black on hymn won't stop you from playing it later on in the game will slow down your turn 2 disruption against combo. As far as rancor goes I still don't like it that much. Maybe more testing will change my views but as for now it still wont crack my list if I were to play in a tourny tomorrow.

[TheCramp]

How does this help vs belcher/tes? Just the goblin tokens?

As someone who has TES together, and also plays RGB aggro, but has masterd neither, I will enlighten you as much as I can.

Tokens for sure. TES is a eel in the weeds if you havn't played against it much (or against someone who knows what their doing.)

Chrome mox is fully 28-33% of TES's permanent mana production package. So EE is good there.

TES secret: if the 10 turn one tolkens don't kill you, your not out of the woods.

Tomb of Urami is the go to back up plan, and that token flys and is 5/5 Hard to burn/block, easy to EE. Also I find myself frequently comboing out turn 1/2 for 10-12 goblins, and dropping LED for my storm count, but not using it. Its held in reserve to pay for tomb activation later or in responce to a top decked Tutor/Wish. So sometimes EE can even hit that.

Null rod is solid, but I would rather play something with more synergy with Jitte. Jitte can be key to ruin Tendrals of Agony's abiliy to kill you with one fell swoop. Discard plus life gain is very effective against TES, but maybe not Belcher. I have not played by friend who plays it since ETW was printed, so I havn't got much advice re:the new CRET meta.

[Hanni]

R/B/g Dark Zoo

Lands (19)
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Polluted Delta
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Creatures (19)
4 Kird Ape
4 Carnophage
3 Rotting Giant
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Seal of Fire
4 Magma Jet
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard (15)
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
4 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Umezawa's Jitte

This is similar to the version of 3c Dark Zoo I've always played... except now that Tarmogoyf is around, it's changed a little. Tarmogoyf replaces Dryad, and Seal of Fire replaces Fireblast. This list goes in a bit of a different direction from yours Zulander, because I cut the 3cc spells of Negator and Call as well as the MD Jittes. The biggest concept of the deck for me was always speed... you want to drop cheap undercosted beaters, back them up with cheap burn, and race the opponent before they stabilize. If they manage to stabilize, you have a ton of additional burn to go to the dome. It's traditional G/R Beats philosophy. When you start running larger costed threats, the deck becomes much more midgame... and I don't really want to do that with this sort of deck.

More burn is much more important for winning the Goblins matchup than Jitte is, I think... if they can't committ anything to the board, they are going to have a hard time winning. More burn overall also improves your control matchups. I also really like Magma Jet in these kind of decks... aside from Confidant, you run absolutely no draw. Zoo decks tend to have problems when they run out of gas and go into topdeck mode. Magma Jet helps alot and, with Confidant, it gives you a solid "draw" engine. Not only that, it also increases your instant count for Tarmogoyf since the deck is heavy in sorceries and lacking in instants.

I'm by no means preaching this list, these sort of lists are obviously open to tons and tons of intrepretation, metagaming, difference in playstyle, etc. The whole fact that I don't run Negator makes it a completely different deck, for example, while Negator itself is still a really good card even without Dark Ritual. I just felt I'd voice my opinion on the R/B/g Zoo style deck and show the decklist I'd use.

As far as my SB goes, the extra Therapy and 2 Unmasks come in against combo and control. I really didn't want to run E Plague because the Goblins matchup is good already but I wanted an answer to EtW tokens and the other options just seemed to conflict with the deck (EE hurts me, Pyroclasm hurts me, etc). Krosan Grip answers randomness, Pithing Needle answers randomness, and the extra 2 Jittes can come in against larger midrange aggro (like Thresh, GRb SA, etc) and even Goblins if you want overkill.

[zulander]

I think that the original list I posted is torn between 2 decks. Red Death with goyf and Zoo. The main reason I wanted to play a list like this was to combine cheap amazing creatures ala gofy/negator along great undercosted hand/creature disruption. I think I'm just gonna play Red Death with goyf and work on this deck in my spare time. Some things that I did work into the deck was the 4th therapy/duress and taking out 2 thornweald archer. There aren't a lot of thresh decks around my meta anymore so he's not as useful as he would be.

[vigilante]

I don't mean to derail the thread too much, but before you go ruining your Red Death deck's manabase by splashing green for Tarmogoyf, have you considered *not* splashing a colour and looking black or red for your undercosted fat-stick? Specifically Tombstalker, which may have to wait a turn or two more before coming down compared to Goyf, but has evasion to make up for it.

I just worry that everyone's looking at Tarmogoyf and saying "freak me sideways, that thing's awexome", then wrecking their perfectly good (or in some cases, already unstable) manabases to squeeze him in.

[zulander]

I don't mean to derail the thread too much, but before you go ruining your Red Death deck's manabase by splashing green for Tarmogoyf, have you considered *not* splashing a colour and looking black or red for your undercosted fat-stick? Specifically Tombstalker, which may have to wait a turn or two more before coming down compared to Goyf, but has evasion to make up for it.

I just worry that everyone's looking at Tarmogoyf and saying "freak me sideways, that thing's awexome", then wrecking their perfectly good (or in some cases, already unstable) manabases to squeeze him in.
Red Death with goyf is pretty good so far in testing, that's what testing is for. I haven't tested Tombstalker because I haven't thought about him, but now that you mention it I'll test him out too. Only thing is that tombstalker doesn't come down on turn 3 if you have a lackluster hand. And he's not so great when you draw him in your opening 7. Goyf will always cost 2 mana but has the drawback of adding in 2 more non-basics to the mana base. But that's what testing is for so we'll just wait and see.

[zulander]

OK so some notes from testing. The deck needs a better game vs combo so duress and cabal therapy are now 4 of's in the main. Chain lightning was tested and almost every time I had it I wanted seal of fire back. Sure seal of fire is 1 less damage, but once it's on the board it's instant speed use is just that much more important vs the decks you need burn against. Thornweald Archer has been cut and tin-streets look like they're about to go to the chopping block. THe manabase was also tuned a bit. So here's an updated list.

GAGOMY V 1.2

Mana : 21
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

Disruption : 16
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt

Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Other : 2
2 Jitte

Sideboard : 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

Maindeck slots open : 5
Right now my thoughts are to go with 3 tin-street and 2 pyroclasm/EE in the main. The clasm wouldn't affect my guys as much (only DC and tin-street) but wipes goblins/ETW tokens, the only problem would be drawing them against the wrong deck and having them sitting in your hand being useless. I've also pondered about putting in maindeck pithing needles or other guys like nimble mongoose/wild mongrel (for more beats). I don't know if the deck needs more beats though either, so right now we're in the brainstorming phase.

If we aren't adding more creatures into the deck what are peoples thoughts of replacing cabal with hymn/stupor? I don't like stupor that much but hymn seems great. I think the -1 forest +1 badlands would help support the addition of a hymn due to the now 14 black sources in the deck (8 fetches, 5 nonbasic, 1 swamp). As you noticed I switched the basic forest in the deck for a badlands due to the removal of thornweald/call of the herd from the main, leaving only goyf as the only green card in the main and 4 grips in the side.

Another card I'm considering is maybe 2/3 nights whisper to combine with DC for card advantage.
Putrefy used to be in the main in the original phase of the deck but I took it out, what are peoples thoughts on it now?

So what are the thoughts on tin-street, hymn/therapy, nights whisper, pyroclasm, EE and putrefy. As well as any other potential cards I may have missed.

EDIT : I'd also like to get some feedback on mana accel i.e birds/elves/rituals.

[zulander]

OK so the changes I've made so far to the deck are this:
- 4 Cabal Therapy
- 2 Tin Street
- 1 Forest

+ 3 Hymn
+ 3 Call of the Herd
+ 1 Bayou
+ 1 Badlands
+ 2 Nights Whisper

So here's the list for GAGOMY 1.3

Mana : 22
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Mountain
1 Swamp

Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Disruption : 15
4 L. Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Duress
3 Hymn

Other : 7
3 Call of the Herd
2 Jitte
2 Nights Whisper

Sideboard : 15
4 E. Plague
4 T. Crypt
4 Krosan Grip
1 Hymn
2 Pithing Needle

The reasons for the changes were to add more card advantage to the deck. Hymn over therapy seems like a wierd choice due to the amount of creatures in the deck but I'll test it and see which one I should play next weekend. Nights Whisper seems solid late game to refill your hand and adding more black to the mana base seems logical since black is the most played color in the deck. And like I said, this build tries to use more card advantage as opposed to utility creatures (i.e tinstreet) to help the combo/control game more.

[BreathWeapon]

As good as Ugly may be, I don't feel his presence justifies the use of subpar cards like Pyrite Spellbomb--maybe Seal of Fire, considering the sorcery count is moderately high from Cabal and Duress--otherwise I'd take Chain Lightning over it.

I also think this deck could really benefit from 4 Rancors. Zoo decks that splash green generally do so for Kird Ape, Troll Ascetic and Rancor. You have Negator in Ascetic's spot, and I'm not going to take away from that flavor--I like it. But Rancor would be a great addition. I would probably cut a land, cut a burn, and cut the archers for the rancors.

The 1 point of damage lost from the Spellbomb is recouped with the Tarmogoyf and compounded over the course of the game, Spellbomb also isn't sup-par in comparison to other options since it can cycle and circumvent Pro:Red.

I think you guys are missing out on Land Grant, you get to add density to your Instants thru' your land count and increase the size of your Tarmogoyf with out wasting the time to cast an Instant. You also get other options at your disposal, like skipping fetchlands altogether and using Root Maze.

[sammiel]

and showing your hand to your opponent, which is pretty much always a terrible idea. Counterable land drops seem pretty terrible unless you have a really good reason, such as belcher.

[BreathWeapon]

and showing your hand to your opponent, which is pretty much always a terrible idea. Counterable land drops seem pretty terrible unless you have a really good reason, such as belcher.

It's not as if this deck has something up its sleeves, its as straight forward as it gets. Force of Willing or Dazing a Land Grant isn't that great of an idea in a deck that curves at 2, and the deck is running Duress and Cabal Therapy. You don't keep a Land Grant as the only land drop, just the same way you don't keep a 1 Land as the only land drop, so that's not much of an issue either.

[sammiel]

Spoken like someone who really doesn't know that much about competitive magic I guess.

It's not just about having your land drops countered, its about betraying to your opponent all the information about your hand. It's about me seeing your hand and knowing if I can brainstorm to improve my hand, or whether I should save it to counter your discard spells. It's about knowing the threat composition of your hand, and whether or not I should answer the cheap threat, or let it through and save my answer for the bigger one in your hand.

Land Grant is just plain stupid in any deck that has anything in it other than creatures (green stompy) or a deck that is winning this turn or the next (belcher/whatever other combo might use land grant).

[TheCramp]

OK so some notes from testing
EDIT : I'd also like to get some feedback on mana accel i.e birds/elves/rituals.

I am trying 2 elves of deep shadow right now. I have to say that I like the elves. They work with confidant well. Alowing me to cast the extra cards I pull off of him. They alow me to cast a turn 2 negator or call. Turn 1 elves, turn two cabal therapy, flash back therapy, cast Goyf is crazy. Birds can't hold jitte. I hate that. Didn't even consider ritual. Maybe if you get into hymn. It's also good for powering out jitte. not sure about that.

EDIT:

also I was digging call w/ negator, because you can soak up oposing burn. Pacaderms just scream, "Bolt Me!"

[zulander]

also I was digging call w/ negator, because you can soak up oposing burn. Pacaderms just scream, "Bolt Me!"
I'm sorry, I have absolutely no clue what this statement means lol. Are you saying you enjoy saccing cal of the herd tokens as sacrifice for negator?

Also, in case people need more reason to play Seal over chain.

1. Once it's on the board it's instant speed use is critical, especially against goblins.

2. It makes people think about playing the threat in their hand, goblins wont play that turn 1 lacky if they see a seal on the board.

3. Can be sacced to gator to save a goyf/jitte

4. If your opponent hits gator for 4, sac seal in response and hit gator for 2, sac gator and a land. I've had this kind of play come up before in critical points of the game to save my board. Especially if he's facing a huge creature, just stack damage then seal him.


On a side note, the reason for the re-inclusion of call of the herd. With the 5 spots open in the deck I knew I wanted a creature and I couldn't think of anything better to put in the spot. I thought about Burning-Tree Shaman and Rotting Giant, but BTS hurt you too much(8 fetches and 2 Jitte) and the Rotting Giant and goyf aren't very synergistic together. So what better than some card advantage ala creatures. If anyone else has a good beater that I'm overlooking and could replace call just lemme know.

EDIT: I also don't like land grant in this deck. Land grant has it's places in combo/stompy decks, not aggro control decks. Letting your opponent know what you have in your hand is always a bad idea, especially against any form of control.

[BreathWeapon]

Spoken like someone who really doesn't know that much about competitive magic I guess.

It's not just about having your land drops countered, its about betraying to your opponent all the information about your hand. It's about me seeing your hand and knowing if I can brainstorm to improve my hand, or whether I should save it to counter your discard spells. It's about knowing the threat composition of your hand, and whether or not I should answer the cheap threat, or let it through and save my answer for the bigger one in your hand.

Land Grant is just plain stupid in any deck that has anything in it other than creatures (green stompy) or a deck that is winning this turn or the next (belcher/whatever other combo might use land grant).

Yes, tipping off your hand has a draw back, but it's not as significant as it is in aggro as it is in control, aggro-control or combo, where it's a race to a finish line and the Land Grant gets converted into damage over time. It's simple to disregard Land Grant based on revealing the hand, but it's not as simple to calculate Land Grant based on converting into damage on Tarmogoyf and enabling Root Maze etc.

The costs could out weigh the benefits, but there are benefits, so stating that it's "just plain stupid" is unwarranted.

[zulander]

While land grant + root maze is a good combo, it just doesn't fit into this deck.


Yes, tipping off your hand has a draw back, but it's not as significant in aggro as it is in control, aggro-control

There are 19 threats and 15 pieces of disruption that matter(4 Duress, 3 Hymn, 4 bolt 4 seal of fire). If this isn't an aggro-control deck then I don't know what is.

[sammiel]

Zulander says it correctly, this is not an aggro deck, it's aggro-control, or aggro-disruption, or whatever. Aggro decks typically run balls to the wall, focusing more on beating face with a minimal amount of disruption, usually in the form of burn, that gives you reach and removal.

Aggro-control/disruption run fewer threats with greater longevity, and protect them either proactively with discard, or reactively with countermagic. They get a threat on the board and protect it/disrupt the opponent long enough for the threat(s) to go the distance.

This deck does alot more than simply race for the face, so land grant seems like a pretty terrible idea that doesn't even really merit testing.

[Cidolfus]

-2 Night's Whispers
+2 Jitte

The card is simply too strong in this deck to not run 4 of.

[sammiel]

you are wrong. You do not run a legendary artifact as a 4 of.

I personally don't like night's whisper, but its better than running 4x jitte.

[Cidolfus]

You run 4 legendary artifacts if it's Umezawa's Jitte.

Stark's Suicide Black ran 4. Zilla's Stompy ran 4. The card just wins games. It's worth being stuck with an extra in your hand if you severely increase your odds of getting it every game. Often aggro matches can be decided by who gets their jitte active first--and if your opponent runs jittes then it turns excess jittes into jitte removal.

The card also has synergy with Dark Confidant. While Night's Whispers hurts your tempo and helps to melt your own face.

[zulander]

I personally love nights whisper in this deck. I think with the 2 whispers and 4 confidants the deck cycles through lands quite a bit, so maybe cut 1 land for the third jitte that way you're still running 21 lands(pretty solid) and the third jitte.

[zulander]

I ran the list I posted but since there weren't any real control decks at todays tournament I took 1 bayou out and put in the third jitte. I went 2-0-1 and we split top 4.

[mmmetaphor]

I ran the list I posted but since there weren't any real control decks at todays tournament I took 1 bayou out and put in the third jitte. I went 2-0-1 and we split top 4.

Did you miss running the wastelands at all?

[zulander]

I ran 4 wastelands. It was the first lands I posted in the list. The manabase looked like this :

4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Mountain

[mmmetaphor]

I ran 4 wastelands. It was the first lands I posted in the list. The manabase looked like this :

4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Badlands
2 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Mountain


Oops, I must have skipped over them. I love running them in my version.. often people suggest I remove them for more color consistancy but they just flat out win games.

Are you still sold on Negator? Your list looks tight but I wonder if 3cc isn't a bit slow for this style of deck..

[zulander]

Oops, I must have skipped over them. I love running them in my version.. often people suggest I remove them for more color consistancy but they just flat out win games.

Are you still sold on Negator? Your list looks tight but I wonder if 3cc isn't a bit slow for this style of deck..

Yeah, he's a beast. Along with call of the herd(which is great against control) they make up the only 3cc's in the deck.

[zulander]

Just a quick update :
After testing a bunch of games it seems that the mana base will have to be readjusted to fit the double black needs of hymn. I also took out the Nights Whispers for the third MD jitte and fourth hymn. Here's the updated list.

Mana : 22
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Disruption : 16
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Duress
4 Hymn

Other : 6
3 Jitte
3 Call of the Herd

Sideboard : 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg

The nights whispers were ok in the deck, but having the fourth hymn and third jitte main seemed like a much better plan, especially with the revamped mana base.

[Cire]

what build of breakfast is that match up based on?

[zulander]

The ones the hatfields run. The kiki/sky hussar combo. That's the only one I've tested against.

[mmmetaphor]

Has anyone considered Burning Wish?

A small wishboard of 5 or 6 targets would be ideal and still allow room for e.plague/krosans/etc

Something like this:

1x Pyroclasm
1x Cain Lightning
1x CoTH
2/3x Cabal Therapy
1x Hullbreach

Sure it will cut down on the overall speed of the deck but will also help out some of the problem areas (like Cotv, combo, etw tokens etc..).

[zulander]

Has anyone considered Burning Wish?

A small wishboard of 5 or 6 targets would be ideal and still allow room for e.plague/krosans/etc

Something like this:

1x Pyroclasm
1x Cain Lightning
1x CoTH
2/3x Cabal Therapy
1x Hullbreach

Sure it will cut down on the overall speed of the deck but will also help out some of the problem areas (like Cotv, combo, etw tokens etc..).
The concepts seems interesting. I don't know how well it would work with the synergy of the deck but and the solid side board. I'm not sure wishs are their best in aggro decks.

[Happy Gilmore]

Just a quick update :
After testing a bunch of games it seems that the mana base will have to be readjusted to fit the double black needs of hymn. I also took out the Nights Whispers for the third MD jitte and fourth hymn. Here's the updated list.

Mana : 22
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures : 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Disruption : 16
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Duress
4 Hymn

Other : 6
3 Jitte
3 Call of the Herd

Sideboard : 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg


Without a taiga in the deck I would probably go to Sarcomancy rather than Ape. Its always a 2/2 and provides two permanents for the Negators. not to mention that it leads much better into a turn two hymn.

[zulander]

In my testing kird ape has always been a 2/3 with no drawback when I needed him. Although if he starts acting like a 1/1 in public more often than he should I'll test out the sarcs. And how does playing either one lead to a better turn 2 hymn...?

[Nydaeli]

And how does playing either one lead to a better turn 2 hymn...?

You can't play a turn 2 Hymn off a turn 1 Taiga, which would be ideal for a turn 1 Kird Ape.

[Phantom]

I have some thoughts here, as I have been running a similar deck:

1) This doesn't seem like the place for Kird Ape. In addition to the poor synergy with the mana base, this just doesn't seem like the deck to abuse him. He gets outclassed pretty quickly by other creatures and opens you up to card advantage via sweepers (since he is a ten turn clock). Also, you don't run enough burn to truly take advantage of the early 2-6 damage he provides, or run therapy so he can provide a use after he is outclassed. Lastly, the one matchup where he should shine (Goblins) he is a huge liability since it's so hard for your mana base to keep a forest around against wasteland.

2) Wasteland seems a poor choice as well. You are running 3 colors, one as a double color required on turn 2. In addition, you run absolutely no other mana disruption at all (except maybe the occasional lucky Hymn grab). I can think of no successful Legacy deck that runs Wasteland as its only LD (Off the top of my head, Gobs has Port, Red Death has Sinkhole, Madness has Stifle, and Loam/Crucible decks recur their wastes in dubious style. Also, every decent Legacy deck is somewhat prepared for waste, so usually you won't actually cripple their mana production in any way, you will just buy yourself an extra turn 1, 2, or 3. The only time where this is really golden is holding off control from sweeping for another turn, and frankly if you shore up your creature base (more on this in a sec), there will be no need for you to fear sweepers.

3) Negator is one of the two creatures, along with Hypy, that I would never run in a Legacy deck without Dark Ritual (or some sort of accel). Sadly, Legacy has hit the point where a 5/5 trample with a significant drawback on turn 3 (and you won't always have 3 mana on turn 3 with 22 sources) isn't that great considering 'Gofy and Grunt and the such. I fail to see how Nantuko Shade isn't better like 75% of the time. It beats a turn earlier and for just as much (assuming you have the three mana to cast big Negs) and it's drawback is almost always less severe. I can see big Negs maybe being slightly better against goblins (although almost all the G/R builds maindeck or board in Pyrokenisis) but I still don't think he's worth it.

4) I like Call of the herd, a lot, but I'm not sure it's better than Q Dryad or Wild Mongrel. It might be with Jittes and the high mana count in order to flash it back, but since I'm about to recommend dropping Jittes and lowering your mana count, you might want to reconsider (if you take my advice). I'm personally on the Dryad bandwagon here (after years of hating her) but I can see how some people would prefer Mongrel. Anyway, you're left with a creature base of:

4 Goyf
4 Shade
4 Confidant
4 Dryad
(also 4 Fanatic can be added, but they are really more burn)

The amazing part of the creature base is that they all cost only two mana, but they all win the game is such a timely fashion. They all can, and have, gone the distance. 3 are absolute Giants (my biggest Goyf in testing 5/6, Shade 9/8, and Dryad 7/7) and DC is a must remove. By not running 2/3 and 3/3 "weenies", I can avoid devastating sweepers, and present a disturbingly quick clock with only one beater.

If you adopt this sort of fearsome creature base, there is really no need for Jitte (awesome as it is). This deck sets up poorly for Jitte anyway, with its slow mana base, and fairly low beater count. Also, mainboard it is our only Holligan/Disenchant/Grip target, which is no fun. Lastly, it's a tad anti synergistic with the philosophy of burn (being slow and removing creatures that burn can hit). Basically, I think there are too many times, with this deck, that the card is going to be a win more, dead (through lack of creature or combo matchup), card disadvantage (Deed), or better off being a burn spell (Magma Jet is lovely here, especially with Dryad, although Chain Lightning is great as well).

5) The board. It's actually possible that Clasm is a better board card here than Plague. I am in no way doubting the power of a Plague vs. Goblins (and the occasional crappiness of Clasm) but Clasm can come in against many more decks (it is a quicker EtY sweeper too). It is also completely unanswerable by Goblins (unlike Plague) and is a mana cheaper, which can mean everything. It's also kind of nice, because they tend to assume that Plague is coming, and A) Blitz as fast as possible, B) attack your black land, and C) board in Grips, all of which are mistakes against Clasm (assuming no Jittes).

Also, Powder Keg over Explosives? don't see the logic there. They both his tokens at the same speed, but one can blow an opposing Goyf a turn or two quicker, and can hit chalice @2 (which is huge with my creature base).

Lastly, the 4 Crypts seem a little much (I think this might be a meta call for you) with the fall of IGGy and their crappiness against thresh. I highly recommend Cabal Therapy or some such.




Sorry bout the monster post. Hope some of that helped.

[zulander]

I have some thoughts here, as I have been running a similar deck:

1) This doesn't seem like the place for Kird Ape. In addition to the poor synergy with the mana base, this just doesn't seem like the deck to abuse him. He gets outclassed pretty quickly by other creatures and opens you up to card advantage via sweepers (since he is a ten turn clock). Also, you don't run enough burn to truly take advantage of the early 2-6 damage he provides, or run therapy so he can provide a use after he is outclassed. Lastly, the one matchup where he should shine (Goblins) he is a huge liability since it's so hard for your mana base to keep a forest around against wasteland.


I've never really had a problem with kird ape. Like ever, but then again I haven't tested the deck as thoroughly since I switched the manabase because I've been swamped at work. If he does become a problem he can always be replaced with something else.



2) Wasteland seems a poor choice as well. You are running 3 colors, one as a double color required on turn 2. In addition, you run absolutely no other mana disruption at all (except maybe the occasional lucky Hymn grab). I can think of no successful Legacy deck that runs Wasteland as its only LD (Off the top of my head, Gobs has Port, Red Death has Sinkhole, Madness has Stifle, and Loam/Crucible decks recur their wastes in dubious style. Also, every decent Legacy deck is somewhat prepared for waste, so usually you won't actually cripple their mana production in any way, you will just buy yourself an extra turn 1, 2, or 3. The only time where this is really golden is holding off control from sweeping for another turn, and frankly if you shore up your creature base (more on this in a sec), there will be no need for you to fear sweepers.

Stealing 1-2 turns can be the difference between winning and losing. Sure the deck doesn't run another LD spell other than the occasional hymn but that isn't the focus of the deck. It's more of a side strategy than a focus in the deck. The only change I would make would be -1 waste +1 bayou.



3) Negator is one of the two creatures, along with Hypy, that I would never run in a Legacy deck without Dark Ritual (or some sort of accel). Sadly, Legacy has hit the point where a 5/5 trample with a significant drawback on turn 3 (and you won't always have 3 mana on turn 3 with 22 sources) isn't that great considering 'Gofy and Grunt and the such. I fail to see how Nantuko Shade isn't better like 75% of the time. It beats a turn earlier and for just as much (assuming you have the three mana to cast big Negs) and it's drawback is almost always less severe. I can see big Negs maybe being slightly better against goblins (although almost all the G/R builds maindeck or board in Pyrokenisis) but I still don't think he's worth it.

Shade is very mana intensive, especially if most of the cards in the deck aren't instants, and leaving mana open to make sure he doesn't die to a clasm seems bad.



4) I like Call of the herd, a lot, but I'm not sure it's better than Q Dryad or Wild Mongrel. It might be with Jittes and the high mana count in order to flash it back, but since I'm about to recommend dropping Jittes and lowering your mana count, you might want to reconsider (if you take my advice). I'm personally on the Dryad bandwagon here (after years of hating her) but I can see how some people would prefer Mongrel. Anyway, you're left with a creature base of:

4 Goyf
4 Shade
4 Confidant
4 Dryad
(also 4 Fanatic can be added, but they are really more burn)

The amazing part of the creature base is that they all cost only two mana, but they all win the game is such a timely fashion. They all can, and have, gone the distance. 3 are absolute Giants (my biggest Goyf in testing 5/6, Shade 9/8, and Dryad 7/7) and DC is a must remove. By not running 2/3 and 3/3 "weenies", I can avoid devastating sweepers, and present a disturbingly quick clock with only one beater.

If you adopt this sort of fearsome creature base, there is really no need for Jitte (awesome as it is). This deck sets up poorly for Jitte anyway, with its slow mana base, and fairly low beater count. Also, mainboard it is our only Holligan/Disenchant/Grip target, which is no fun. Lastly, it's a tad anti synergistic with the philosophy of burn (being slow and removing creatures that burn can hit). Basically, I think there are too many times, with this deck, that the card is going to be a win more, dead (through lack of creature or combo matchup), card disadvantage (Deed), or better off being a burn spell (Magma Jet is lovely here, especially with Dryad, although Chain Lightning is great as well).

I haven't thought of dryad in the call spot, it seems pretty strong if you resolve one, because then the deck would only have 6 more green cards in the main. I'll have to test it out.

As for Jitte the card has almost always been the card that gives your side of the board the advantage. Sure it may seem as a 'win more' card but in an aggro/control deck that plays 19+ creatures I'd say that it should stay.


5) The board. It's actually possible that Clasm is a better board card here than Plague. I am in no way doubting the power of a Plague vs. Goblins (and the occasional crappiness of Clasm) but Clasm can come in against many more decks (it is a quicker EtW sweeper too). It is also completely unanswerable by Goblins (unlike Plague) and is a mana cheaper, which can mean everything. It's also kind of nice, because they tend to assume that Plague is coming, and A) Blitz as fast as possible, B) attack your black land, and C) board in Grips, all of which are mistakes against Clasm (assuming no Jittes).

Also, Powder Keg over Explosives? don't see the logic there. They both his tokens at the same speed, but one can blow an opposing Goyf a turn or two quicker, and can hit chalice @2 (which is huge with my creature base).

Lastly, the 4 Crypts seem a little much (I think this might be a meta call for you) with the fall of IGGy and their crappiness against thresh. I highly recommend Cabal Therapy or some such.
Sorry bout the monster post. Hope some of that helped.


I've tested clasm over plagues and it seems that every time I drew a clasm was after resolving a dark confidant and a negator which seemed kinda bad. Both are good but it's a personal call. As for powder keg, I've always liked it more than EE as well, again with a very similar card it's going to be a personal call. As for the crypts, there's a ton of thresh/iggy that I seem to get paired against in my metagame. Cabal therapy is crap against decks that actually use the graveyard.

[zulander]

Out of curiosity, who else has tested the decklist I've provided? This doesn't include the brg aggro decks people have on the side, I actually mean this specific list.

[thefreakaccident]

I tested a little bit, before I got a new computer... the deck was good; just not my cup of tea.

I much perfer blue disruption as opposed to black disruption.

[zulander]

I tested a little bit, before I got a new computer... the deck was good; just not my cup of tea.

I much perfer blue disruption as opposed to black disruption.

Understandable. I think with the rise of combo I might have to play blue more for force and card draw. But hey, that's a whiles away right now.

[zulander]

After some minimal testing it seems that dryad doesn't really fit in this deck. I definitely need to do more testing, but it seems that without cantrips he'll get 1 token per turn early on which doesn't seem that great, especially if your opponent deals with him. The nice thing I like about call here is the 2 for 1 and the extra threats with jitte. I'll post more testing data later on today/tomorrow hopefully.

[zulander]

Here's the list I piloted to a U.S Nationals Legacy win. I went 5-0-1 and won an Italian box of Urza's Destiny.

GAGOMY v 1.4
Mana: 21
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp

Disruption: 17
4 Seal of Fire
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Taurach
1 Engineered Explosives

Creatures: 16
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator

Other Beats: 6
3 Jitte
3 Call of the Herd

Sideboard: 15
4 Krosan Grip
4 Engineered Plague
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Powder Keg

A full report is in the making but will be completed after I get some sleep. Didn't get home until 5 am after the tournament.

[Zilla]

I've been testing a build similar recently, to varied results. I have a card I think deserves consideration, and that card is Unearth. It's just so ridiculously good in a deck where nearly every one of its creatures is a bomb that costs 3cc or less. Against board control it's like playing Tarmogoyfs 5-8, which I would argue is stronger than Call of the Herd. I also run 4 Therapies in the board for a stronger control/combo matchup, and Unearth has strong synergy there as well, because it acts as Therapies 5-8. At the very very worst, it cycles when it's unneeded. You ought to give it some testing.

[Phantom]

My list I think is close enough to GAGOMY to be talked about here. Plus, I don't think we need another 'Goyf thread. Here is the list I tested:


GoyfDryadBobSligh by Phantom
//Creatures (16)
4 Goyf
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Confidant

//Burn (12)
4 Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Magma Jet

//Discard (12)
4 Hymn
4 Duress
4 Therapy

//Land (20)
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothils
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Polluted Delta


I only tested against RG Gobs and BardoThresh, but the deck performed very well (I'm at work so I don't have the exact numbers, or the sideboard, in front of me, but I think it was in the 60/40 range pre and post board).

After testing, I realized Therapy should be in the board. Swinging blind is often difficult, and none of my creatures like to be sacced. They like to win me the game. Taco suggested Fanatic, and I probably agree. Kird Ape is pretty terrible here, with the mana base as such, and the lack of Jittes.

Why no Jittes? God knows I love the card, but it just isn't needed with creatures of this quality. Not including Fanatic, all of my creatures win me the game very quickly. Confidant through card advantage, the others through shear size. Jitte is great when it's humming, but is a huge tempo loss when the creature gets targeted (read plowed) and can lead to terrible card advantage (when sitting there by itself or through Deed) as well as being crap in most combo matchups.

I was never a big fan of Dryad (and for those that don't care for her she can easily be replaced with Mongrel, in which case Jet should probably be Seal of Fire) and she is not without her weaknesses, but I really liked her in my testing, where she occasionally reached mammoth proportions (9/9).

Goyf and Shade are their usual undercosted goodness. I chose not to run Negator because the deck doesn't run ritual. A 5/5 trample with an enormous drawback swinging on turn 4 or 5 isn't all that stellar when you realize that Shad, Goyf, and even Dryad can be just as big by that point, without losing you games. Call of the Herd is a quality card, I just couldn't find room for this. Also, being able to cast the entire deck with one Bayou and one Badlands is really nice.

Speaking of, the deck could probably drop a land or 2 for Explosives. While the deck runs a ton of discard, it has no mainboard answers for ETW.

Anyway, that is my take on this particular deck. I believe it to be superior to other builds, but having little testing and no tourney results leads me to claim no such thing. Thoughts?

Edit: Zilla has a very interesting idea. I think C-Aleric used it in his more controllish, reccuring build. Maybe I'll test it in the Fanatic/Therapy slot. It is true that Goyf (and sometimes Confidant) are head and shoulders above the other creatures in the deck (and probably format).

[zulander]

After testing therapy I came tot he same conclusions that it should be in the board. However, I replaced it with extirpates to help out against combo, but I'm contemplating putting them back in. As far as not running jitte I can see why you don't play(16 creatures is borderline with jitte) but have you tried out rancor? It seems rancor would be a bit better since your guys are big without evasion and could use the extra damage going through.

[DragoFireheart]

How about adding Troll Ascetic to the mix? He's a untargetable creature that you can still throw your Rancor/Jitte to and he regenerates. The only things that can kill him are Wraths [White or Black] Edicts [Black] Flamebreaks [Burn decks] or mass -X/-X [There is none I can think of off the top of my head, but again black most likely].

Since you are using a aggro/control style deck wouldn't it be a good idea to add him? Is there a reason not to other than most likely having to take out Call of the Herd? Is his 2 green too much of a hinderance?

[Phantom]

@ Troll: Sadly, and it pains me to say this, Troll Ascetic is unplayable in Legacy.

1) It's GG. No one runs double green. There is no reason to. Every good green card is single green.

2) It sucks vs. Goblins; it sucks vs Combo. That's a large part of the metagame right there. It CAN be good against Goblins if you accel it out, but then you are ruining your Control and Aggro Control matchup.

3) It's 3cc for three damage a turn. That is not good in a format where 2 can get you 4.

@ Rancor: Rancor is a decent substitute for a burn spell, but I would much rather have the burn spell. Rancor, and to a lesser extent Jitte, really thrives with first strike and regeneration. I might consider it if I ran Negator. The biggest problem is that my build is Aggro/Control. Every card in it CAN be aggressive or CAN be controlling. I find this to be an extremely strong stratagem since there are times when i need to do one or the other. Cards like Rancor or Deed box you into playing one or the other. The reason I'm not running Jitte is because the card is dead if I have no creatures. The reason I'm not running Kird Ape is because the card is dead when a Mongoose or 'Goyf hits the board. The Reason I'm not running Negator is because he loses to burn. Hell, the only slightly narrow card I'm thinking of running is Explosives.

[DragoFireheart]

@ Troll: Sadly, and it pains me to say this, Troll Ascetic is unplayable in Legacy.

1) It's GG. No one runs double green. There is no reason to. Every good green card is single green.

I don't understand this: you have enough mana fix to get double GG. Could you explain this?


2) It sucks vs. Goblins; it sucks vs Combo. That's a large part of the metagame right there. It CAN be good against Goblins if you accel it out, but then you are ruining your Control and Aggro Control matchup.

You have enough Discard control to slow down Combo, so that is not a huge issue. For goblins, he can chump block a Piledriver and live. Most importantly, gobbos can't burn him away. If anything, your shade is more mana intensive.


3) It's 3cc for three damage a turn. That is not good in a format where 2 can get you 4. It also can say alive after lethal and is a pain in the ass to get rid of. In those long games with control he can make or break games.


@ Rancor: Rancor is a decent substitute for a burn spell, but I would much rather have the burn spell. Rancor, and to a lesser extent Jitte, really thrives with first strike and regeneration. I might consider it if I ran Negator. The biggest problem is that my build is Aggro/Control. Every card in it CAN be aggressive or CAN be controlling. I find this to be an extremely strong stratagem since there are times when i need to do one or the other. Cards like Rancor or Deed box you into playing one or the other. The reason I'm not running Jitte is because the card is dead if I have no creatures. The reason I'm not running Kird Ape is because the card is dead when a Mongoose or 'Goyf hits the board. The Reason I'm not running Negator is because he loses to burn. Hell, the only slightly narrow card I'm thinking of running is Explosives.

Rancor works well with Troll as you now have a dangerous threat that is extermely difficult to answer in a format that has swords and other cheap removal. Most likely people will swords your Goyf [goblins may start to splash white], your Dryard is a horrible top-deck, Mogg/SGG can ping your Confidant and Nantuko Shade is gonna have to eat up a great deal of mana if you want to stop a Piledriver [assuming you lack a burn spell on hand, which you shouldn't so this is a moot point].

I do agree though, I wouldn't use Jitte/Rancor if I did not have a creature that could stick around to abuse it.

Granted, this is all theory craft so I may very well be wrong.

[Illissius]

At the risk of ridicule: what about a more controllish version with Burning Wish? (I suppose this would be more like a Hanni deck than Zoo, but I don't want to open a new thread for it).

The main attractions being,

Reanimate: Brings back your Goyf or Bob, or your opponent's Goyf or Enforcer or Masticore or Angel or Dragon or... in other words, a beating.

Ruination: If you retool the manabase for more fetches and basics and fewer duals, this could be pretty backbreaking.

Pyroclasm: a good card

Other potential targets: Unmask, Duress, Cabal Therapy, Persecute, Haunting Echoes, Hull Breach, Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree, Meltdown, Pulverize, Innocent Blood, Chainer's Edict, Massacre, Damnation, Cave-In, Rolling Earthquake, Deathmark, Hand of Death, Eradicate, Regrowth, Recoup, Life from the Loam, Harmonize

[DragoFireheart]

@ the Burning Wish for reanimate: There is a better version called Unearth. But you have the right idea.

It sounds good on paper to use Burning Wish as it acts like a wild card that lets you find answers. Since this is a aggro-control deck the game will be dragging on for a bit so it isn't out of the question to run wish to help you find answers for your current game.

[zulander]

Call of the Herd > Troll Ascetic, two for one and it's even better against blue because they have to double counter him. And he's less of a pain on the mana only requiring one green source. Right now this is my current list.

Mana: 21
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Badlands
1 Taiga

Beats: 21
3 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Call of the Herd
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption: 18
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Taurach
2 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard: 15
4 Extirpate
4 Pyroclasm
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt

OK so there are 2 things that I'm still playing around with before I have a finished product. -2 EE +2 tinstreet/pyroclasm or 1 kird ape and 1 other. The manabase is fine even with wastelands and once I figure out how I want the main to look I'm going to rewrite the entire primer with matchup's and the nationals tournament report that I won with the deck. As far as burning wish I think it's just too slow in this deck, unless you want me to take out the 2 EE for it, which seems ok but EE is too useful in the format right now, especially when I can set 0-3.

[Illissius]

@ the Burning Wish for reanimate: There is a better version called Unearth.

No, it's not better. Two or three life is completely negligible when compared to the ability to steal your opponent's creatures. The entire logic behind and reason for Burning Wish is to be able to use Reanimate rather than Unearth: in the event that you have nothing useful in your graveyard, would you rather: (a) steal your opponent's creature instead; (b) Wish for a good card; (c) cycle for :2:? Thought so.

[zulander]

If you're playing burning wish reanimate is the better card in the board, paying 3R just to draw one card seems aweful. I'd rather play Nights Whisper in the board and a reanimate.

[DragoFireheart]

Call of the Herd > Troll Ascetic, two for one and it's even better against blue because they have to double counter him. And he's less of a pain on the mana only requiring one green source. Right now this is my current list.

They are good, but they can still be removed from spells and such. When troll is cast he has to be countered or the control deck will have no way to deal with him without using a few obscure cards. You use the argument that CotH don't cost 2gg, but then you use Hymn which costs 2bb. Why not use Cabal? That way you can still drop a turn 1 Ape and then follow up with a discard spell of your choice.

Also, Negator is just gonna get eaten alive by Goblins, ala Gempalm and SGG. More control decks will start running Goyf as well, and will save their swords for your Goyf. I would rather have a creature that might have a chance to deal damage to Goyf and survive afterwards. I would use CotH and Troll personally and drop the Gator: he isn't worth using without Dark Rituals.

[B4L4]

Hi all, i know this is not the typical gagomy version, but i want to show it:

Lands (18)
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness

Spells (26)
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4Terminate
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cabal Therapy

Sideboard
3 Pyroclasm
2 Hidden Gibbons
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Extirpate
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip

The manabase can't really support wasteland, because of the 8 baubles and the fact that we want to get 2 colored lands in the 2 firsts turns

The baubles are the most debatable choice, but i like to virtually play 5 goyf, 5 confidant, 5 duress, ect.. and it help a lot to get our x2-x3 sb cards, + it had a great synergy with cabal therapy and dark confidant (mishra bauble allow us to see top card of our library, then we choose "draw" trigger upkeep between bauble and confidant (we choose the less painfull cc))

4 bolt and 4 terminate can take care of most creature in this format (terminate is great against goyf ), but we have no answer to pro red

I opt for non-really aggresive beater to help tarmogoyf, cause i generally want to play some disrupt in the first 2 turns
note that 2 treshed mangouse trade 1 for 1 with a goyf if u block correctly

that's all for mom.. (and sry for my english)

[Hatthehat]

Unearth is very good is this deck,i think I'll try it out.

[zulander]

They are good, but they can still be removed from spells and such. When troll is cast he has to be countered or the control deck will have no way to deal with him without using a few obscure cards. You use the argument that CotH don't cost 2gg, but then you use Hymn which costs 2bb. Why not use Cabal? That way you can still drop a turn 1 Ape and then follow up with a discard spell of your choice.
Call of the Herd is card advantage and requires your opponent to have 2 counterspells while Troll Ascetic only requires them to hold one. And trust me, the double green does matter. The manabase can fit hymn, the only non black sources are 4 wastes and one taiga. As for cabal therapy like I said earlier, hitting blindly is horrible while hymn is never a miss, unless they have 0 cards in hand in which case therapy wont hit either.



Lands (18)
1 Swamp
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Eternal Witness

Spells (26)
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Cabal Therapy

1 Therapy/Top seem very random. And the fact that you only run 4 threatening creatures (tarmogoyf) makes the deck seem poor late game. Only running 18 mana sources seems a bit low. Have you hit any mana problems as well? Especially since you require 1GG for witness and BR for terminate and BB for hymn.

[DragoFireheart]

Call of the Herd is card advantage and requires your opponent to have 2 counterspells while Troll Ascetic only requires them to hold one. And trust me, the double green does matter. The manabase can fit hymn, the only non black sources are 4 wastes and one taiga. As for cabal therapy like I said earlier, hitting blindly is horrible while hymn is never a miss, unless they have 0 cards in hand in which case therapy wont hit either.

You leave the opponent the chance to kill your Elephants. With the Troll once it goes through they can't do jack about it. The mana base could be adjusted to fit troll: it's not very hard or crippling either.

Again, I would suggest CotH and Troll and leave the Negator out, due to not having Dark Ritual.

[zulander]

@Mods: Please lock/delete this thread.

@Everyone else: Please post comments/questions/criticisms here (http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=155958#post155958).

[Zilla]

[color]red]Closed. The new thread for this deck is here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6778).