[Deck] Solidarity (Reset High Tide)

[Bahamuth]

I really don't understand why this deck has to be faster. Please tell me, against what deck does it matter to have a clock 1 turn faster? I can't think of any, except for maybe Sui (but those decks usually play their discard in the first couple of turns). Solidarity was built to fight trough hate, and by removing the counters, you're basically converting it into a bad FT.

[deviant]

If you feel like you are a turn too slow, it's better idea to try and make the opponent a turn slower than to try and make yourself a turn faster.
(The deck can only bend in so many ways, and this isn't really one of them..)

Some people have tried this sort of thing with a splash for Chants.
Personally I have no experience of Chants in this deck, but it looks interesting, and makes the control-mu's even more of a cakewalk while improving the combo-mu. (at least in theory it does, never played with them..)

Try them out and report back :D

[Citrus-God]

I was curious, should we play with Cryptic Commands or Spell Snares in the open slots? Here's my list as of now;


// Lands 18
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
12 Island


// Spells 42
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
2 Peek
4 High Tide
4 Impulse
4 Reset
3 Turnabout
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
2 Brain Freeze
3 Remand
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Cunning Wish


// Sideboard 15
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Brain Freeze
1 Rebuild
3 Echoing Truth
4 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Spell Snare

My favorite play of the day; Cunning Wish for Spell Snare to counter Counterbalance. I was thinking that Cryptic Command could be played here because it can bounce CB, but Spell Snares are much more flexible than Cryptic Command because Spell Snares can counter things like Devastating Dreams and such as well.

[PunkRocker1134]

Personally I would be inclined to think Cryptic Command would be better, seeing, as you noted, that it can bounce Counterbalance. As of now, it seems very difficult for us to fight through Counterbalance. However, if you want to run Spell Snare maindeck, which can counter counterbalance outright, I would suggest Wipe Away in the sideboard. Maybe something like -1 Echoing Truth +1 Wipe Away, even though Echoing Truth is much better against Ichorid(kills Zombie tokens) and Storm Combo(kills ETW tokens). I would only suggest that in a Thresh heavy meta.

Speaking of Thresh heavy meta's, in this current Thresh heavy meta I wouldn't imagine this deck faring to well, or has there been more tech as of recently improving the dreadful matchup I remember Solidarity having when I played it during the Vial Goblin era? Just looking at the most recent list posted, does 2 extra counterspells(the spell snares) make that much of a difference in the Thresh matchup in place of two combo pieces?

[Bahamuth]

I found that not every Thresh variant is dangerous. The UGw version is very doable, because it doesn't provide a clock very soon. You have plenty of opportunity to get rid of Counterbalance, if it even lands. The truly bad matchups are the versions with black. If they resolve a Confidant on turn 2 and you can't counter it, they basically won.

[e_hawk77]

Spell snare counters so many hate cards ( counterbalance, hymm, devistating dreams, chalice at one, thorns of the amytyst, meddling mage) that i don't see why u would play cryptic command over it. I guess cryptic can bounce couterbalance if there are no fours on top but black thresh in my meta play sower and white thresh plays enforcer or it could stall a turn vs aggro, but i would just rather counter them out right and move on. The card seems too slow to me.

As for cutting either force of will or remand I wouldn't do either. Force is your best defense in the deck. And remand makes you a turn faster it also makes the combo way more consistant by making u only need around 8 spells to go off before your first brain freeze.

[Deep6er]

And if you had Spell Snare every time they tried Counterbalance, AND they didn't have a Daze, AND they didn't have Force/Thoughtseize, then it seems you're in pretty good shape.

Sometimes Counterbalance resolves. You won't ALWAYS have Spell Snare. That's why people like Cryptic Command. It bounces Counterbalance and there's very few cards played at four in Threshold. Unfortunately, if they have a five on top, they can Force your Command leaving you dead in the water. I don't particularly like either of those options, but I haven't found anything better, so whatever.

[Bahamuth]

And if you had Spell Snare every time they tried Counterbalance, AND they didn't have a Daze, AND they didn't have Force/Thoughtseize, then it seems you're in pretty good shape.

Sometimes Counterbalance resolves. You won't ALWAYS have Spell Snare. That's why people like Cryptic Command. It bounces Counterbalance and there's very few cards played at four in Threshold. Unfortunately, if they have a five on top, they can Force your Command leaving you dead in the water. I don't particularly like either of those options, but I haven't found anything better, so whatever.

I found that Counterbalance usually doesn't come down turn 2, so Daze shouldn't be that much of a problem. If it does come down that fast, you will very likely have a lot of time and you will certainly have the possibility of getting rid of it. Spell Snare is practically never dead against Thresh. Getting one trough on a Counterbalance, Goyf or Confidant can easily be game-winning.

[Deep6er]

You're overvaluing the card something fierce. A 1-for-1 that doesn't do anything but counter a spell is rarely game-winning. To speak otherwise is misleading.

Additionally, it's rarely likely how much time you'll have if a Counterbalance lands early. NOT RESOLVING A SPELL is much like killing you the next turn. Good luck digging, you only have a couple of spells to do it with.

Listen dude, it's been my experience that Counterbalance is probably the WORST thing that could happen. I really don't think there's two ways about it.

[Kanti]

Cryptic can work wonders, but how many would you need MD to make it work? And would that cut down on consistency? A card that is dead for the first 3 turns of the game is kind of rough in the format.

Not saying it cant work, just saying its hard to picture it working.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Why would you run Cryptic Command main deck? If to combat Counterbalance, Spell Snare would be better. That's really the only reason that I can see.

[Shimster]

In a vacuum, Cryptic Command is the better card to deal with Counterbalance. You cannot always Spell Snare it, as your opponent has got his or her own permission.

The huge benefit of Spell Snare is its usefulness in other matchups: While Cryptic Command is only good against Threshold, balanced Fish and Dreadstill (and Goblins, but to a way lesser degree), Spell Snare shines against most of the format.

Legacy is a format dominated by cc2. That's the main reason for playing Spell Snare over Cryptic Command.

[Kanti]

What is the usual turn this deck goldfishes at?

[Citrus-God]

What is the usual turn this deck goldfishes at?

You should set-up your goldfish by Turn 4, but it's usually recommended that you don't combo off unless you have to.

[Bahamuth]

You're overvaluing the card something fierce. A 1-for-1 that doesn't do anything but counter a spell is rarely game-winning. To speak otherwise is misleading.

Additionally, it's rarely likely how much time you'll have if a Counterbalance lands early. NOT RESOLVING A SPELL is much like killing you the next turn. Good luck digging, you only have a couple of spells to do it with.

Listen dude, it's been my experience that Counterbalance is probably the WORST thing that could happen. I really don't think there's two ways about it.

All I'm saying is that the cards Spell Snare counters are the strongest against this deck, and they are Thresh's only means of producing a decent clock (except for Mongeese, but not every Thresh/Fishlists plays those here). Only a single resolved Counterbalance isn't THAT much of a threat. It's not nice, sure, but the chances are you've found Cunning Wish by the turn Counterbalance lands, and that you can quite reliably bounce the card once needed. Once Counterbalance is supported with a Goyf, thist do start to get nasty. Confidant is even worse.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: Counterbalance is a severe problem, but not one we can't overcome. The combination of boarding in Spell Snare and Wipe Away gives us a quite strong chance against that card, as well as giving us the ability of slowing the opponent down. I doubt Counterbalance is as bad as Meddling Mage back in the eariel Threshold days.

[Tacosnape]

For my two cents, I still think scooping to Counterbalance is the only option the deck has. Not that this is a fantastic option given Counterbalance's prevalence, but trying to answer Counterbalance consistently isn't working. I'd rather dedicate a lot more effort/cards to putting myself in a position to win against other combo decks.

[Kanti]

Against other combo decks you set up Twincast shenanigans, or use Remand and/or Spell Snare to slow them down, and if they are storm, they do half the work for you given you can go off and are not hit by Orim's Chant.

Scooping to CB is a horrible idea... Thresh is a HUGE part of the meta, you cant just have a game plan of "Well, I guess Ill just die" against them.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why is Cryptic Command horrible against other decks? I'm trying hard to think of a deck not involving Tendrils of Agony that it's bad against. If nothing else, buying a turn to make a fifth land drop can be huge.

[Kanti]

Its not bad, but, what would you replace?

Running 2 Opt/4th Remand/2 Spell Snare What are you going to take out?

-1 Remand? Remands are useful as hell. Opt? You need to find land drops. Twincast? This deck <3 that card. Spell Snare? Serves a better purpose in the meta.

[Van Phanel]

@Kanti: In your situation, I'd absolutely add a third Opt in place of Twincast or Remand. You need those landdrops more than anything.

Remand has become weaker with Thresh being the best deck as it is the number1 target for Daze and more often than not, we try to play around Daze.

Spell Snare is not that great as it is a reactive answer. When they play that Counterbalance and you draw Spell Snare some turns later, you have a dead card. Cryptic Command is a bit clunky yet it won't ever be a dead card if you reach four lands. And drawing dead cards is the worst enemy of Solidarity. I'd only play Spell Snares again, if lots of black discard were to expect.

@IBA: Well, there's also dredge where it is to slow. Apart from that, you are absolutely right.

@everybody: I wanted to do a report from the sideevent of GP Madrid but (un-) fortunately I played day2 of the mainevent again. German Legacy Champs are in four weeks, hopefully I'll be able to write a report about those...

[Deep6er]

All I'm saying is that the cards Spell Snare counters are the strongest against this deck, and they are Thresh's only means of producing a decent clock (except for Mongeese, but not every Thresh/Fishlists plays those here). Only a single resolved Counterbalance isn't THAT much of a threat. It's not nice, sure, but the chances are you've found Cunning Wish by the turn Counterbalance lands, and that you can quite reliably bounce the card once needed. Once Counterbalance is supported with a Goyf, thist do start to get nasty. Confidant is even worse.

EDIT: Let me put it this way: Counterbalance is a severe problem, but not one we can't overcome. The combination of boarding in Spell Snare and Wipe Away gives us a quite strong chance against that card, as well as giving us the ability of slowing the opponent down. I doubt Counterbalance is as bad as Meddling Mage back in the eariel Threshold days.


I call bullshit. A single resolved Counterbalance could easily spell game. You're forgetting that even if they don't have the Top, their curve matches most of what you're trying to do to FIND THE CUNNING WISH. All of your Opt's, Impulse's, and Brainstorm's are well within their curve, and can be easily countered. By the time you've finally found your Cunning Wish, it's entirely possible that you've lost 3 or so cards to it (and that's assuming they didn't find the Top in the meantime, since they get to cast spells with impunity!).

I don't know who you're playing against, but Counterbalance is usually the earliest permanent that I would ever play. There's NO reason to wait. That card is stupid. You're neglecting to mention the newer five-color builds that also play Thoughtseize which is a beating.

The reason I stopped playing the deck was because I couldn't find a way to reliably beat Threshold. Cryptic Command/Spell Snare sure as fuck don't do it.

Meddling Mage? You're going to compare a one-sided Chalice of the Void to Meddling Mage? I would be ecstatic if all of the Counterbalances were Meddling Mages! Meddling Mage wasn't anywhere near as much of a problem as Counterbalance is. You know why? Because you could ACTUALLY bounce him. He didn't counter the very attempts to get rid of him in addition to keeping you from playing a majority of your spells. Counterbalance is vastly superior to Meddling Mage, and it doesn't sound like you realize that.

[Funky-kun]

Isn't the best answer to a resolved Counterbalance a Cunning Wish for Wipe Away? It can get through Daze easier than Command, cannot be CB-ed (maybe if they have Trygon Predator, Jace, or something like that), and is never a dead card, as it is more than welcome to draw mid-combo, if mana is available. If that is the case why not run 4 Wishes?

[Valtrix]

Well, if you cunning wish for wipe away they for sure wouldn't CB it, because otherwise your wish would be countered =3

[Funky-kun]

Yeah, I was originally referring to Cunning Wish.

[Kanti]

Cryptic does seem good, and true, the 4th Remand hasn't been doing it's job. I've been doing better with Spring Tide for the sole reason that the draw and tutor suite in that deck is just loads better than this one, so the Opt should help me. I see it that on the 4th turn and beyond, Solidarity has the advantage.

Also, what would you cut for Cryptic?

[Van Phanel]

I play Cryptic Command in the slots where other people run Spell Snares. Namely instead of Remand #4 and Twincast (I also run 3 Opt, 1 Peek). This is by no means perfect though, just my personal preference. If you want to run Command however, these two slots + Peek are the only slots that can be changed at all, at least that's what my experience tells.

[RockOfTheFormat]

For my two cents, I still think scooping to Counterbalance is the only option the deck has. Not that this is a fantastic option given Counterbalance's prevalence, but trying to answer Counterbalance consistently isn't working. I'd rather dedicate a lot more effort/cards to putting myself in a position to win against other combo decks.

I second this statement... find better ways to beat the rest of the field rather than CB... once CB hits it is facial

[The Rack]

Hey, I recognize you, weren't you already banned?

[RockOfTheFormat]

No, This is the only account I have ever posted on. I would be surprised if I got banned from this site, because as far as I know nothing I have posted has been in any way offensive.

But really what I said in my previous post was true. If you can beat everything except CB (as is the case here) then play the deck only if you feel a shallow CB field. More and more stompy and Loam decks, as well as some gob/affinity have been out there, so solidarity has all day usually.

[The Rack]

You're right, you don't post anything offensive only flames, failed cleverness, and stupidity!!
The flames:

Take everything this person said, and then do the opposite. Then you will win more.


You forget the fundamental flaw of Affinity; only bad players like it.


I just want to point out that you guys have completely defeated the point of combo in Legacy; win on turn 1 CONSISTENTLY (someone else spell check this for me ok). At least you spent way too much for a misprinted play-set of Infernal Contracts... NiCe?

But wait folks, that's not all, the failed cleverness!!


I checked the math on this, and I am 100% sure that you spent way too much time figuring this out, and another 73% sure that you need to beer bong a 40 oz. of Old E and then hold your breath als long as you can, just to make sure you are still alive. Math is funny. So many squiggles and crazy symbols, and it all ends up useless when you are face to face with the girl of your dreams. Unless that girl is Leelee Sobiesky, she really likes the nerdy guys.

And finally, the stupidity!!


Land is colorless... noted!

Thank you and welcome to The Source.

EDIT: Hey I found another Flame!

m03... shame, shame


But anyways, this is a deck construction forum, you guys wanted help and I offered it. If you can't look past your ego and read the small print, then you will get stuck behind badly constructed, poorly conceptualized decks that have no chance of doing well at Legacy Nats. next month. Maybe some of you are not that worried about that, but for some people it is important. A lot like Flash manifest as a consistently fast deck, this deck must do the same. If you do the math, then you are better to cut some draw fours for Death Wish, and maybe pay attention at your local tourneys while better players are playing strategically better cards. Good luck tomorrow night guys.

[thefreakaccident]

Jake that was waay to much pwng in one post...

But seriously, flaming people and then claiming that you in no way offend others on these boards is not a good way to start off a profile on here...


Hell, I am probably the most rude and ignorant fuck on these boards, and I have a lot more sense than that.


(I already have two strikes... I hope this don't get my ass ban'd)...


@phanel-- I really like the addition of command, as it is easily supported by this deck (where others would struggle to try and keep it up)... it is a timewalk against agro to give you more time to go off (much like how turnabout used to be used), an answer to an already resolved CB, and an additional counter for the combo turn (4 mana is not really an issue for this deck).

Nice find



EDIT: back to Rock... Don't insult anyone else before you have some credibility to stand on, unless people like me will assume you have no idea what you are talking about and therefore have no right to talk... CHEERS

[RockOfTheFormat]

You're right, you don't post anything offensive only flames, failed cleverness, and stupidity!!
The flames:






But wait folks, that's not all, the failed cleverness!!



And finally, the stupidity!!



Thank you and welcome to The Source.

Not that I need to defend myself, but lets get this out there. I very much like everything in the deck where the guy was saying take out Infernal tutors and put in Doomsday... that is flat out the wrong idea, since he has an engine for that deck. But posting a half hour to explain that only to hear more arguementation is pointless.

When i was reading the percentages on the last one I was really impressed, because I had done pretty similar math with a good friend that is very good at those sort of calculations. Spoils only missed my MB for the fact that it is never less than 10%. What I liked about the post is that the respondant litterally missed the point, and the percentages were then trivialized.

When I read a post where a person gives horrible advice, or is distracted from the key point, I get very angry. Call it the litigator in me, but I think that when people make great points, and post good decks, then get reamed by horrible short sighted posts thereafter, I get a bit upset. Reading some of the responses on this post specifically I get mad, because the deck is so close to groundbreaking, yet some people fail to post legitimate reasons for switching cards. Finding fault in my snide rebuttals to an already useless comment, or finding fault in my critisism of poorly constructed critisism is one thing, but there are very good reasons for it. What you need to do is look at the posts that I was responding to and go from there.

Read the Imperial Painter (pretty sure that is the name) thread. Throughout the entirity it has remained a productive and very intelligent forum, and I respect that and posted my respect for it. If you have a problem with the way that I "flame" then do not throw fuel on the fire. I care about Legacy way more than a lot of you, but then I read forums like this and get very down about the poorly written responses to great base concepts, which only tend to deminish the overall quality of the postings.

Thanks!

EDIT: My cred comes with my eternal... This site is only a measure of the field. Geyting banned is fine, because it seems the ethos of the Legacy field to ban all the wrong things (Land Tax? Really?). If you have two strikes then you are actually doing something, which is more than I can say for most of these over posters.

[The Rack]

When I read a post where a person gives horrible advice, or is distracted from the key point, I get very angry.

Do you get angry with yourself?

WHy'd you flame the Affinity thread? and why don't you explain a little more in your posts instead of ridiculing people for playing a deck that they put time and effort into?

[RockOfTheFormat]

OMG! stop flaming me :tongue:

Then go read Affinity.

[thefreakaccident]

I don't mean to sound like a hippo here, but I think the mods should clean this all out...


and before these posts get deleted...

I don't like affinity either, although it does molest threshold which is a plus...



EDIT: All this flaming is making me hot!

VERY HOT!

[RockOfTheFormat]

For the record, Solidarity is the greatest deck in Legacy if Counterbalance is not around. 100% sure of that.

[m03]

Not that I need to defend myself, but lets get this out there. I very much like everything in the deck where the guy was saying take out Infernal tutors and put in Doomsday... that is flat out the wrong idea, since he has an engine for that deck. But posting a half hour to explain that only to hear more arguementation is pointless.


Except if you had read more than 1 post, you'd know that the decks creator suggests the same changes, and justifies them with several well though out strategies. If you had come into the thread and criticized specifics, suggested better strategies, etc. that would be different, but you're just dropping grenades into Established threads and providing nothing to back it up.

[RockOfTheFormat]

The decks creator? I would challenge that statement. There are very simple changes that could be made to better matchups, but what would really swing this deck is the unbanning of Frantic Search. Not only would it allow you to get around CB, but could allow for a turn 3 kill. With Belcher and other decks in the format that turn 1 with ease, Solidarity should get its engines back to confront the rising tide of combos. Cryptic Command is too much of a win more card, which will randomly lose to Mystic Enforcer off of CB (yes people still net deck origional builds, because it is simple to do). m03 you need to know that I do read every post, and only truely post cutting comments to people whom I feel are lessening the forums as a whole. Stax was a perfect example, but you can run what you run, and I will run what I run. I have stayed out of that forum completely while it has gone down hill.

[m03]

The decks creator? I would challenge that statement.



My maindeck right now has 3 Doomsday, 1 Meditate, 1 Infernal Tutor, 4 Ponder, 1 Cruel Bargain, 2 Tendrils of Agony, 1 Ill-Gotten Gains.


But enough trashing the Solidarity thread. I'm done here.

[RockOfTheFormat]

But enough trashing the Solidarity thread. I'm done here.

That is not about this forum bro, argue your point in the forum you are speaking of. Solidarity is the best deck hands down with consistency, but unless you run both wipe away and cryptic command, then you are going to have a very tough time ripping games out of the iron grip of CB.

[Bahamuth]

Right.......I'm pretty sure some posts are going to be deleted there.

Dave, I see where you are coming from, but I still belive you describe Counterbalance too much as the end of this deck. What I am trying to say is this: I realise the card is bad for us, but given I use a sideboard with both Spell Snare and Wipe Away, there is a chance that one of the following things might happen:

- Spell Snare / FoW
- Opponent counters back (quite a big chance)
- Opponent doesn't counter back (won't happen often, but it's very possible)
- Wipe Away (which is in your hand from the start/cantrips turn 1 and 2)
- Cunning Wish (which is likely to be countered, unless you played a FoW/Spell Snare on the CB) --> Wipe Away
- Go off trough Counterbalance when the opponents has no Top. (I know this is risky, but it is, especially earlier in the game, a good option.)

I realise you cannot reliably cantrip anymore with a Counterbalance active, but you still draw cards, and given that you played cantrips the first turns and kept a good hand, it's possible to obtain a hand that's capable of winning or bouncing/destroying Counterbalance. I'm NOT saying it's likely to happen, but it's definately a viable option.


Also, I'd like to show this over here. This is some recent work Lukas Preuss did on Solidairty. The list is specifically adapted for a Thresh-heavy metagame.



// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
8 [PT] Island (4)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [A] Tropical Island

// Spells
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [SC] Brain Freeze
4 [FE] High Tide (3)
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [OV] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
4 [RAV] Remand
4 [CHK] Peer Through Depths

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [OV] Meditate
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 4 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip



2nd round against UGW Balanced Thresh: I use Krosan Grip to get rid of his Counterbalance and combo off through some countermagic. Game 2 gives me Orim's Chant which makes the matchup better and I win again without many problems. 2-0

2nd game is against It's the Fear!. Game 1: He gets a Counterbalance, I remand it twice and in the end use Cunning Wish to Krosan Grip it. I Wish for Chant and cast it during his upkeep. He uses his FoW and I combo off savely during his main phase. Games 2 and 3 are very, very difficult and he has a lot of luck with his extirpates: Just when I was going to combo off, he hits my two Meditates in hand (nice choice!) and I have nothing left in my hand to fuel the combo. Note that Chant should make your combo somewhat save from Extirpate. During game 3 I was mana screwed, because I kept a one land hand on the draw with only one land and two Opts and a Brainstorm. I didn't find a single land for the next five or six turns, which sucked. Still, I almost won that match. 1-1

I tried out both of these splashes, and really the only usefull thing I can say about them is that they're absolutely strong enough to warrant play in the right metagame. Because of the more random nature of the tournaments I attend (usually, a lot of black decks show up), I will usually stick to mono-blue.

[Citrus-God]

Why Splash White and run Orim's Chant when you have Bound // Determined? Seriously, what's Orim's Chant going to do, time walk the opponent? I doubt I'd waste a card just to time walk an unthreshed Mongoose and a 2/3 Goyf...

[Valtrix]

He said the meta was thresh-heavy, so I think the idea is more to play chant so that you can play your cards without fear of counterspells. I do aggree that bound // determined makes more sense for that however. I think the extra one mana is worth the cantrip. I guess orim's chant would make more sense if there was some amount of combo too, though the post doesn't indicate that.

[Bahamuth]

Why Splash White and run Orim's Chant when you have Bound // Determined? Seriously, what's Orim's Chant going to do, time walk the opponent? I doubt I'd waste a card just to time walk an unthreshed Mongoose and a 2/3 Goyf...

Chant is strong against combo, it's one mana cheaper, which is a great advantage, and it has the ability to stop an attack for 2 mana. That is also quite important, because you will often try to win on the lethal turn, and Chant makes it possible to use an extra Wish/Turnabout in your combo.

[Jak]

Chant is strong against combo, it's one mana cheaper, which is a great advantage, and it has the ability to stop an attack for 2 mana. That is also quite important, because you will often try to win on the lethal turn, and Chant makes it possible to use an extra Wish/Turnabout in your combo.

Sucks that there is only 1 white mana source...

[Bahamuth]

Sucks that there is only 1 white mana source...

And 7 + 3 = 10 untap effects. (Counting Wish --> Turnabout as one too)

[Jak]

And 7 + 3 = 10 untap effects. (Counting Wish --> Turnabout as one too)

Wish + Turnabout is 7 mana + 1 more for Chant. I dooubt that will happen against aggro. Also, Why not just tap down there creatures if you get Turnabout? I just don't think you would side in 4 Chants vs Goblins and slow the deck down.

[Bahamuth]

Wish + Turnabout is 7 mana + 1 more for Chant. I dooubt that will happen against aggro. Also, Why not just tap down there creatures if you get Turnabout? I just don't think you would side in 4 Chants vs Goblins and slow the deck down.

You would against Thresh, since that allows you to wait a turn longer (That's obviously not the reason to run Chant, but it is an argument). Also, as I just said, if you have Chants to make sure you don't die that turn, you can use the Turnabout which would've been needed to do that to produce extra mana, including the 2W for Chant. You've then gained some extra mana with which you can draw cards and up your storm count.

I never said anything about boarding in Chant against aggro, did I?

[Jak]

You would against Thresh, since that allows you to wait a turn longer (That's obviously not the reason to run Chant, but it is an argument). Also, as I just said, if you have Chants to make sure you don't die that turn, you can use the Turnabout which would've been needed to do that to produce extra mana, including the 2W for Chant. You've then gained some extra mana with which you can draw cards and up your storm count.

I never said anything about boarding in Chant against aggro, did I?

I interpreted your post wrong. I can see where it would be handy against Thresh.

[Tacosnape]

Orim's Chant >> Bound//Determined. For those of you that weren't paying attention:


Chant is strong against combo.

Go play against Threshold 20 times and then go play against TES about 20 times. You'll quickly discover that both decks completely own the hell out of you on close to equal footing without Chant. Chant gives you a significant amount of hate to make other combo matches at least workable.

[Deep6er]

How does Chant stop Counterbalance? Are you going to pre-emptively Chant them on turn 2? Turn 3? How does Chant deal with the thing that's ACTUALLY beating you in the Threshold match?

I swear that if Counterbalance wasn't in Threshold, I'd be able to beat it. BUT THE CARD IS SO FUCKING RETARDED, that beating it AND THEN BEATING THE REST OF THEIR GODDAMN DECK is damn near impossible.

There is no proof that Chant actually helps beat the primary problem of Counterbalance. Once you can find a satisfactory answer for that, then I'll start listening.

[Rood]

Krosan Grip, I think that Lukas hit it right on the money. That card is the save-all answer to the thing that hurts Solid the most: CB. I would even be tempted to run it mainboard Solid needs to revamp the maindeck as it is now. Spell Snare just won't always be reliable to stop a Turn 2 CB w/Daze or FoW backup. Cryptic is shaky at best.

[Bahamuth]

How about this: We could use the same tactic Fetchland Tendrils uses to fight Counterbalance. We could run, say, 3 Mystical Tutors and play Wipe Away/Krosan Grip sideboard. We then have 3 Tutor, 3 (or maybe 2) Wish and the boarded in Grip to fight Counterbalance.

Mystical Tutor kind of sucks though. I'm not sure the card is worth playing. However, I can think of quite a lot of situations where the card would actually be very strong.
I can see it performing quite well against Sui, since it can get you a Meditate quicker than Wish.
Against Storm combo, you can find an early first or second FoW, which is really strong.
Furthermore, the card is definatly not dead against other decks, because playing Mystical Tutor for Meditate does ensure you can regain your carddisadvantage or combo off easier and faster.
Against the decks you usually really want the cardadvantage against, like decks with counters, you can find Brain Freeze and just win with that really.

Dave, I'm sure you tested Mystical Tutor. How did it do?

Edit:

Krosan Grip, I think that Lukas hit it right on the money. That card is the save-all answer to the thing that hurts Solid the most: CB. I would even be tempted to run it mainboard Solid needs to revamp the maindeck as it is now. Spell Snare just won't always be reliable to stop a Turn 2 CB w/Daze or FoW backup. Cryptic is shaky at best.

You're right. Grip is a really strong card. Yet, I think it only warrants the splash if Counterbalance is abundantly present in the metagame. I prefer to paly mono blue in mine, because the amount of Counterbalance is not too bad.

[Rood]

// Lands
9 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island

// Spells
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [US] Turnabout
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LG] Reset
4 [RAV] Remand
3 [OV] Meditate
2 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [FE] High Tide (3)
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
[B]1 [TSP] Krosan Grip

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [OV] Meditate
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 4 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I think this is the approach to take the deck as of now.

[Deep6er]

I was generally irritated with it, but I did see it's usefulness.

Unfortunately, you really need to run an extra Card Advantage spell in order to mitigate Mystical Tutor. Meditate isn't going to be enough.

However, I can definitely see something like that working. I didn't test Mystical Tutor with Krosan Grip, but it seems that it might be worthwhile. I'll probably end up revamping a great deal of the structure to see if I can accommodate Mystical Tutor, Krosan Grip, and some other form of Card Advantage. I'll let you know what I can get.

[Bahamuth]

I was generally irritated with it, but I did see it's usefulness.

Unfortunately, you really need to run an extra Card Advantage spell in order to mitigate Mystical Tutor. Meditate isn't going to be enough.

However, I can definitely see something like that working. I didn't test Mystical Tutor with Krosan Grip, but it seems that it might be worthwhile. I'll probably end up revamping a great deal of the structure to see if I can accommodate Mystical Tutor, Krosan Grip, and some other form of Card Advantage. I'll let you know what I can get.

Cool, that's great. Nice to see you still want to work on this deck. I'm going to try to find something myself too. The first thing that comes to mind is Think Twice, since it was in the older list too.

Could you please explain why we would need another cardadvantage engine? Fetchland Tendrils barely runs any cardadvantage, and if you look at it, it functions quite the same. We both need a couple of cards in our hand to win, but not the full 7.


// Lands
// Lands
9 [MM] Island (3)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [B] Tropical Island

// Spells
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [US] Turnabout
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LG] Reset
4 [RAV] Remand
3 [OV] Meditate
2 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [FE] High Tide (3)
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [OV] Meditate
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I think this is the approach to take the deck as of now.

Good start. I really don't want any potentially dead cards in the mainboard though, so I'd probably not run a MB Grip. Also, 4 Tutors seems like too much (perhaps I'm wrong). I'm not sure 3 Wish is needed with the 4-3 tutor mainboard. I'd probably go with this right now:

// Lands
11 [MM] Island (3)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Tropical Island

// Spells
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [US] Turnabout
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [LG] Reset
3 [RAV] Remand
3 [OV] Meditate
3 [IN] Opt
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [FE] High Tide (3)
4 [5E] Brainstorm
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
2 [Ju] Flash of Insight


// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [OV] Meditate
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 3 [OV] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip

I still love 2 Brain Freeze sideboard. Remand also still sucks against Thresh.

[jazzykat]

Could you please explain why we would need another cardadvantage engine? Fetchland Tendrils barely runs any cardadvantage, and if you look at it, it functions quite the same. We both need a couple of cards in our hand to win, but not the full 7.


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but sometimes you draw lands with a cantrip even if you get a choice of x cards. Since you are often comboing on your opponent's turn a land is rather useless. Furtherrmore, going down a card (even if it's for something that wins the game) may be detrimental as on average with a single brainfreeze you need to cast more than 10 spells (of course you can add your opponents but still...)

[Rood]

I think you are going to most definetally want a Krosan Grip in the mainboard. It's only a 1-of that you can tutor for without Cunning Wish to resolve (Mystical). It's almost never dead against most people just a few targets you can hit you don't like to see

Chalice
3Sphere
Dreadnought
Counterbalance

[Bahamuth]

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but sometimes you draw lands with a cantrip even if you get a choice of x cards. Since you are often comboing on your opponent's turn a land is rather useless. Furtherrmore, going down a card (even if it's for something that wins the game) may be detrimental as on average with a single brainfreeze you need to cast more than 10 spells (of course you can add your opponents but still...)

You're right, but after playing quite a lot with this deck, I found that it doesn't happen often that you can't combo out once you resolve a Meditate. Backed with, say, one more cantrip, Meditate usually does enough. Still, I can see why more cardadvantage would be needed.

Flash of Insight is cardadvantage too, and should definatly stay in. Perhaps a mainboard Grip is the right way to go, but I'd never cut Flash when I'm playing Mystical Tutor.

By the way, are there any black boarded asian Mystical Tutors? They're quite old, right?

[frenchy-man]

Ok


So I'll restart testing the deck. Say there are only few countertop in my meta. What list should I play ? I would say that a monoU is probably the best, but what are the most efficient list of solidarity nowadays ?

[Bahamuth]

Ok


So I'll restart testing the deck. Say there are only few countertop in my meta. What list should I play ? I would say that a monoU is probably the best, but what are the most efficient list of solidarity nowadays ?

Really, whichever you like. I like to play 2 Spell Snare mainboard at the moment, but others, like Van Phanel, play Cryptic Command. You could also take an older list. All up to you.

[PunkRocker1134]

After a quick search of magic cards that are Blue, instant and have the word "draw" in them I've come up with a list of the following cards that seem OK at fulfilling the role of extra card advantage:

Careful Consideration
Opportunity
Predict(not really card advantage but card filtering)
Keep Watch(as one in the sideboard against aggro decks incase we are going off in response to lethal damage on the stack)
Thirst for Knowledge(not really card advantage but card filtering)

Not very much, that we aren't already running at least, that isn't clunky, overcosted, or has some stupid drawback(i.e. Read the Runes) To be honest, none of these seem really worth a damn, maybe opportunity in the board or something, but thats it.

[Rood]

Thirst seems to most likely candidate, I love that card.

[Tacosnape]

How does Chant stop Counterbalance?

It doesn't. I just scoop to Counterbalance.


I swear that if Counterbalance wasn't in Threshold, I'd be able to beat it. BUT THE CARD IS SO FUCKING RETARDED, that beating it AND THEN BEATING THE REST OF THEIR GODDAMN DECK is damn near impossible.

Which is why I just scoop to Counterbalance.

[frenchy-man]

Ok.

Could I have one of your list to have an idea to begin testing ? My list is quite similar to an old Gearheart's one, but I would like to see the actual changes since I stopped playing solidarity.

Or perhaps it is a secret that everybody keeps for himself...

[deviant]

It is not. It's just that Solidarity has ~2 slots that have changed since your old Gearhart-list.

Just scroll back this thread and pick one you like. They are not "outdated", really.

Thirst and Consideration are not card-advantage btw. (Do we run artifacts/play sorceries?)
Predict was the only (blue) one I found even remotely interesting and even that needs a brainstorm to be effective.

One way to do it though would be to move the Meditate to md and put a CC in the sb and hope we don't need to wish for it to set-up (mid-combo we should have lands to pitch, but even then it costs 4 and we have stroke also)

In other words: I see no way we can include a blue instant that wouldn't suck and would provide CA.

When I'm not this tired, I might scroll ALL OTHER INSTANTS to see if a splash could provide us with something else besides means to combat Combo&CB.

EDIT: Fuck me. Just started doing this, and while there doesn't seem to be anything relevant that draws multiple cards, this one was so amusing I thought to post it here even though it sucks: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=107284

EDIT 2: I got so excited about this: http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=74304 only to later realize it's from Unhinged..

EDIT 3: Skeletal Scrying.. Eh.. Bad color, is against our game-plan of waiting as long as possible, and eats the same cards FoI does. Ew.

[Shimster]

What about Three Wishes, then? ;)

I'll retry the green splash. As I only tested Hunting Pack the last time (which wasn't as amazing as it should've been), I'll focus on Krosan Grip to be sure that it's good against Counterbalance.

[Tacosnape]

Predict was the only (blue) one I found even remotely interesting and even that needs a brainstorm to be effective.


Or a Mystical Tutor, ironically. Mystical Tutor for Flash of Insight, Predict for Flash of Insight nets two cards for two cards and the ability to flashback the FoI when needed. Which is technically card advantage. Of one card. For :2::u::u::u:. But that's still a worst case scenario.

[Van Phanel]

On the other hand if you have the time to do all this why not just win the game?

Also white Threshold still plays Predict. And I sure as hell don't want them to predict my Krosan Grip away that I just fetched with Mystical Tutor.

[Bahamuth]

On the other hand if you have the time to do all this why not just win the game?

Also white Threshold still plays Predict. And I sure as hell don't want them to predict my Krosan Grip away that I just fetched with Mystical Tutor.

Then just try to make sure you have a cantrip in your hand. I don't think there are many lists that still play Predict by the way.

[Citrus-God]

On the other hand if you have the time to do all this why not just win the game?


Because then we have to sacrifice flexibility for speed.

[Bahamuth]

So I went to a tournament today. About 25 people showed up. Here's a small report

Match 1: Thomas (Acme_Myst) with Counterbalance/Painter’s/Slaver (such a cool deck)
Round 1: He is quite slow and I win after a while once he almost taps out for a Mindslaver.
Round 2: Long game. He get’s a Welder online (and maybe a CB?) and has a Grindstone in play and a Servant in the grave. I try to combo, but I’m almost shut down by 3 counters. I manage to play a lethal Brain Freeze with the last card in my hand, but he simply weld’s in a Platinum Angel.
Round 3: Not much time left. He almost wins in the extra turns with Painter/Grind, but I had a Wipe Away ready.

Match 2 Luke with UGB Balanced Thresh
Round 1: I get lucky, since his draws kind of suck and go off without too much trouble.
Round 2: He plays a turn 2 Counterbalance and later another one, but get’s unlucky again with draws. I eventually manage to win by milling half of my own deck in my grave and stacking it at the end of the turn, and fire 2 Brain Freeze in my own turn to him, which mill for exactly enough. Really a lot of luck….

Match 3 Goblins
Not much to say here. Round 1 I counter some Golbins and crush him.
Round 2: He has some decent sideboard options, but get’s mediocre draws. He does put up a fast clock, but my hand is faster.

Match 4 Counterbalance/Thoughtseize/Goyf/Painter’s Sevant/Dreadnought/FoW/Daze/Extirpate.dec
Round 1: He resolves an early Confidant. I Spell Snare, he Dazes. Lame…. He proceeds to draw a lot of cards with Confidant and eventually plays GrindStone and Servant and mills me. I Go off in response and he appears to have no counters at all. After using his Grindstone to give me the opportunity to Flash of Insight for my entire deck, I Meditate and mill his deck away.
Round 2: Turn 1 Top, Turn 2 CB, Turn 3 Confidant. Yeaaaaaaaa……Riiiight……

At this point, I ask for a draw, ‘cause I figure it’s worth the shot, and to my surprise he accepts. He tells me he’s quite sure he’ll lose the 3th game and tells me he doesn’t feel he has enough counters. Well, you won’t hear me complaining….

Match 5 Mike with Dragon Stompy
Round 1: He mulls, plays and early Chalice and tries to play some beatsticks which I Remand and FoW. Eventually I Wish for Rebuild and combo off.
Round 2: Basically the same as round 1

Top 8: Goblins again
Round 1: My deck does what it should do, and I crush him
Round 2: I keep a slow hand and he has a turn 1 Lackey. Not nice.
Round 3: After some FoWs and Hydroblast, I find myself in a pretty good position with 5 land and a hand of 2 Meditate, 1 Reset and a Brainstorm. I play Meditate, find Tide, play Tide, play Reset, play Meditate and play Brainstorm and proceed to be unable to find an untap effect and lose.



I played 3 decks with Counterbalance in the swiss rounds. Fuck that card.... We really need an answer.

[frenchy-man]

Nice tournament, but at what place did you finish ?
What was your list ?

Your report also shows that your were quite lucky...

[Bahamuth]

Nice tournament, but at what place did you finish ?
What was your list ?

Your report also shows that your were quite lucky...

I finished somewhere between 5th and 8th. My list was the list with 2 Spell Snare, 4 Opt and 3 Remand.

I know I were quite lucky. I should've went 2-3 looking at my matchups. I certainly wasn't lucky in the top 8 though.

[Bahamuth]

So what about Accumulated Knowledge as a cardadvantage engine? I remember seeing some old lists playing that card. It offers the possibility for even more than +1 cardadvantage, and it's therefore great in most matchups who carry some sort of control element (like Landstill, since people seem to think we can't beat that deck or something....). This also strenghtens your Brain Freeze yourself-plan.

Quite a big disadvantage I can see is graveyard hate though. Extirpate and Crypt (which some players seem to board in against me) become much more relevant.

EDIT: I'm sorry for the double post, but people wouldn't notice if I edited it in.

[GreenOne]

So what about Accumulated Knowledge as a cardadvantage engine? I remember seeing some old lists playing that card. It offers the possibility for even more than +1 cardadvantage, and it's therefore great in most matchups who carry some sort of control element (like Landstill, since people seem to think we can't beat that deck or something....). This also strenghtens your Brain Freeze yourself-plan.

Quite a big disadvantage I can see is graveyard hate though. Extirpate and Crypt (which some players seem to board in against me) become much more relevant.


The problem with it is that the first copy sucks. Really, it sucks hard and you're gonna see it quite often cause you're playing 4 copies of that card. The good thing is that the 3rd/4th copy act like meditate #4-5. It could definetly be good in the control matchup, but it would suck in the Aggro and Combo mathups. So so in the Aggro-Control mathup. It would shine vs discard though.

[deviant]

The problem I have with AK is that it would like a billion slots in a list that has 2 flexible. So it would have to best something we've been running for ages, and I quite like the core of the deck.

I'm not fond of cutting the Opt/Peeks, I think they are almost mandatory. So what would you cut to make room for the AK's. FoI seems like a suspect, but then you would just screw the freeze yourself "plan" if you didn't have an AK in your hand.
Which makes it slightly counterproductive.

Cut down on Remands? Brain Freezes? Wishes? I suppose we could cut a remand or something, but I have serious doubts about it.

Or cut the remands and opt/peeks, and just go for the throat with the combo and forget about the early turns (well we still have FoW). This just seems a little too vulnerable to me.

We could add those Mysticals with the new and shiny CA so I suppose it's worth testing.

[Bahamuth]

If we play both Mystical Tutor and AK for the cardadvantage, perhaps we could cut Impulse. It'd be good to add a 19th land probably in that case, so we won't be too reliant on the AK's to find land. It might be a bad idea though, since Impulse is one of the more important cards in the current build, but perhaps we can miss it once we have Tutor.

[deviant]

Mystical Tutor is card-disadvantage, right? I suppose that was a typo or something.

Anyway, these changes warp the deck so much that all the convention go to the bin. (don't cut impulse anyone?) Maybe we can cut Impulse if we add the tutors and a land. Brainstorm definitely gets a boost from more shuffle-effects so even that might help. It's interesting to say the least. You should try to make a list and test it (I don't have time, nor the opportunities to test that extensively). Maybe start without adding splashes to the mix and just add the Wipe Away to the md along with Mysticals and AK's?

Seriously though; the tutor-power of mysticals and wishes at least deserves to be explored. (Then we end up splashing white to the mix for Chants and then a Top appears from nowhere and the someone casts Dark Ritual for Doomsday and David Gearhart performs the fish-slap-dance but whatever, it's a win-win situation.)

[GreenOne]

With some more engines going on, I'd cut the 2nd Brain Freeze (we now have mysticals to get it) and subsequently, FoI.

[Bahamuth]

With some more engines going on, I'd cut the 2nd Brain Freeze (we now have mysticals to get it) and subsequently, FoI.

I suppose cutting one Brain Freeze might be the right call. Also, AK and Flash don't work together that well. I'm still unsure if AK does enough to justify cutting Flash of Insight. Would you cut 1 or 2?

Let's see. Flash of Insight really shines in any control and aggro-control matchups, since it can provide a virtual 8-card hand. Yet, perhaps AK can give us a similar effect. The fact that the card costs 2, gives the opportunity to cast it as the first card (provided you have 5-6 land out), in which case you can decide to stop the combo.

Also, do you think we could miss a Wish with the Tutors mainboard?

An Impulse-less build could be:

3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
12 Island
1 Tropical Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
2 Opt
4 Reset
4 AK
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Flash of Insight

Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
3 Krosan Grip
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
2 Whatever

I'm not convinced this is a step in the right direction really....

[solidarity!]

Hi sorry for not posting so long i moved to a new location so =)

I think accumulated knowledge could have potential, but with mystical tutor i think it leads to card advantage+disadvantage is 0 advantage, and mystical in mid combo is not really what we want.

But getting with ak we take a step more towards control wich might be interesting=).

So maybe intuition 2 times main maybe dont think its worth it though since its further dead.

[Nihil Credo]

I'm not convinced this is a step in the right direction really....

Weren't Mystical and AK run in Solidarity around 2004-2005 or so? The early incarnations of the deck certainly weren't famous for beating the (then non-existent) Threshold deck.

[Bahamuth]

Weren't Mystical and AK run in Solidarity around 2004-2005 or so? The early incarnations of the deck certainly weren't famous for beating the (then non-existent) Threshold deck.

Yea I thought I had seen lists from that time too. I was nowhere near playing this deck at that time though. I have no idea how the deck did against Thresh. I don't really see why it perform that bad.

[Taurelin]

I think in those days Meddling Mage was still played quite frequently in the white-splashed version. So the deck had proactive disruption AND counters AND a clock.

Now we merely have to fight Counterbalance, sweet times. :cry:

[GreenOne]

I'd start the testing with a standard list with those changes:

-1 Freeze
-2 Flash of insight
-1 opt/impulse
-2 meta slots (someon plays Twincast, someone Spell snare, someone Cryptic command here)

+4 AK
+2 Mystical Tutor


4 mysticals are really too many, we don't need all those tutors and card disadvantage. The right number of Mysticals with this configuration IMO is somethig between 0 and 2.

[Trancerogue]

Hey all! Seems like were back to the Mystical Tutor debate and I just got back from a small tourny in the States. It was 17 people with 4 rounds of Swiss. Heres my list:

// Lands
12 [10E] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LOR] Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 2 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

Heres what I normally run when testing this deck. However I saw some Counterbalance decks floating around before we started and I made some changes. -2 cryptic command + 2 spell snare (Man that card is so dead in this deck!!!!) I some how dropped both twincast from the board addded 2 repeal and a 3rd Wipe away, this leads to going to frowntown as Gearhart would say!

Round 1 Goblins monored no Fetch

game 1: nothing special he doesn't drop piledriver or lacky untill turn 4-5ish and I combo him out.

game 2: I get stuck on 3 lands he drops lacky, vial lacky warchief and such before attackers I try to combo off with 2 high tides and 2 resets plus 2 meditates i procede to draw into brokeness of goodies and smash his face with high tides # 3-4 plus draw... Wow I'm lucky and off to a good start.
1-0

Round 2 Type 2 Faeries

game 1:
He plays 3 scion and nothing else and I combo in his face. No sweat I really hate spell snare,have I told you that yet????

game 2: I side +2 repeal (just bc it might help bounce something?)
Same as the 1st game Scion and no real threats, I take my time and combo out. He does try to counterbore some spell and I just remand it back to my hand and play it again. GG
2-0

Round 3 anti-Agro life deck, plays like angelfire, but is not Angelfire???

game 1: No sweat, he does drop a random Teferi, so I get bored and combo him out in my turn via turnabout, wish to wipe away and GG

game 2: Hes rather slow nothing untill turn 5. I have 8 lands in play and just combo off in responce to his Teferi.
3-0

Round 4 U/W Scepter, Anti-agrro, not good Chant build.

game 1: He stalls on 2 lands Frowntown, population HIM! I easily combo him out with like 8 lands to his 3 lands.

game 2: Same as before except I use turnabout on his upkeep and then procede to combo him out.
4-0

So not bad a 4-0 during the swiss, Im really tired and hungry at this point and they form a Top 8 for a 17 man!!! WTF So I go in as the only 4-0 and get to play the 8th place, not bad I think, then I realize its time to lose.

Quarters
Monoblack with hymn, areana, ravens chime, The rack

Wow, so I must say that black is still this decks worst match up, or I just plain suck at magic.

game 1: Nothing really happens lots of hymns and chimes, I try to combo off in responce to discard and draw 3 lands and some other crap..... Wow GG

game 2: I open up to trash and No lands, so I mull and pile shuffle and shuffle again and again. He cuts, i draw 6 wow again no lands. mull to 5 shuffle and shuffle and shuffle draw 5 and well NO LANDS!! WTF so I mull again down to 4 and say "Man you sure know how to stack peoples decks". I open up with 1 land and get blown out by RAVENS FREAKING CHIME!!! WTF!!!!!!!!! I SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh well, its only a game at least I did sweep the Swiss rounds.

Spell snare IMO is trash in this deck, that spot belongs to Twincast, I cannot tell you how much I missed that card in my deck. I love you Twincast please come back! Spell snare is so narrow given any meta its not really worth playing. Sure its great to stop CB,Chalice at 1 and Hymn but even when you run 3-4 its never shows up when you need it most. F U Spell snare go find Wipe Away and apoligize!

AKs seems like, and I did test with them awhile back, on par with Think twice and I was not to disipointed with them. (Aside, they seem like house verus B/W and monoblack decks!) You all play peek and that is normally a 2 spot in most builds. Why not just run AK or Think twice? I will most likely go back to Twincast beacuse it has had the best results during testing.

Lastly, and Im sad to see you all going back to Mystical freaking Tutor!!! OMG that card is not good in this deck. If you don't listen to me read back to Gearhart's posts on that card and why is should never belong in this deck. I can point out one situtation that does come up. FoW, remand, tutor, Reset Etc. and you have just created mana and tutored up a Meditate and now you have to have a second card, (i.e. opt, brainstorm, impulse) to draw that very card you placed on top!!! Thats no good when you need solid card draw while comboing. It also, as many have said over and over again, reveals what might be in your hand and verus a solid opponent they will wreck you. Thats why this deck does not run those types of cards otherwise FoF, Gifts Ungiven would be in this deck!!! Not only that but if i was going to spend any mana and I only had Card XXXXXX and a drawer (i.e. Brainstorm, impulse, meditate, opt) I'd rather it be twincast any day because at least I can search or modify the stack to my advantage.
Nuff said. Help us firgure out what should be in the 2 dead card spots, not waste time debating Mystical tutor that card is trash in here!!!

My vote is for Twincast!

My updated list after my stupid scrub loss in the Top8:

The Real Solidarity:

Lands
12 [10E] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

Spells
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10th] Twincast

Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 1 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 3 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

IMO and in my testing this deck has proven to be the most stable in any random meta game. I feel that 3x Wipe Away helps out alot verus the 3rd Echoing Truth. Anyways, thanks for reading.

[lavafrogg]

If you see alot of black you can always bring back the think twices(I still play them) they are some good.

[e_hawk77]

I think the reason you didn't like spell snare is because you didn't run into a deck that it was good against. If you would have run into threshold you would have wanted them as it counters most of the good stuff in their deck. I think the problem with the 2 meta slots is that you make the decision on what they should be based on what you see but you wish that they were something else if you dont play what you expect. Two tourneys ago i loved spell snare and the last one i wished they were echoing truth as i sided it in all day. However I did manage to not play against thresh so i guess it was okay. And spell snare counters most of the biggest problems the deck has(counterbalance, hymm, dark confidant, thorn of the amythyst, sinkhole, chalice at 1, meddling mage....).

On a side note I dont like cryptic command. In testing it was good vs aggro and slow control, however it was terrible vs thresh. Yes they usually cant counterbalance it but they can just counter it with force of will and when you go to counter they have the counterbalance to counter with. I think our best answer to counterbalance is to some how get the card banned. We should all right wizards and tell them that.

Btw I love AK but is it really that good and why would you cut flash of insight that card has won me so many games. You get to set up your deck while comboing and drawing a card.

[Van Phanel]

On a side note I dont like cryptic command. In testing it was good vs aggro and slow control, however it was terrible vs thresh. Yes they usually cant counterbalance it but they can just counter it with force of will and when you go to counter they have the counterbalance to counter with.

Or will they? Generally if you don't run into Daze like stupid, white Threshold has 8 relevant cards (4 FoW + 4 CB) while we have 9 (4 Fow, 3 Wish, 2 Command) and our digging (after turn 1) is better than theirs which means that we have better chances to draw our relevant spells.

I generally try to FoW their CB if possible, which means that they have to FoW back, otherwise I can just set up as usual. And if they do Force back chances are good that they don't have another Force when they have to stop my Cryptic Command (or Cunning Wish for Wipe Away). Every now and then double Daze ruins all plans but even that is a 2 for 1 for us. Also they tend to not have enough pitch cards when they apply pressure fast and when they have enough pitch cards, they tend to not apply a lot of pressure. Sure, balanced Threshold is a bad matchup, but far from unwinnable. Postboard more Wipe Away makes the matchup only slightly negative. They don't have that turn 2 CB every game and on turn 4 or later it is a lot less scary.

If nothing else helps, try to set up a kill right through a blind Counterbalance and run testspells and hope they'll show the top card. If they do and it is a land, kill them and if they show something relevant, just kill them without spells of that manacost (Turnabout shines at evading Counterbalance). 6 Islands are usually required to pull this off, though. Just try it, if it doesn't work, they would have won anyway.

Add Thoughtseize into the mix and it gets a lot worse, but setup Meditates or Twincasts to take away their CB that they want to protect tend to do the trick here every now and then as well.

All that said, the matchup is still bad, whichever cards you run, but the important thing aren't the numbers, the important thing is that you know your way to win.

[I'm a TROLL]

This is another deck that should try to add Sensei's diving top to the main. Against the Threholds deck we can side in counterbalances for ultimate hate against'em.

Wouldn't we be better if we cut a Mediate and two Opt/Peak? We already have 3 Cunning Witch in which to gets the Meditates. Plus the tops help when you are going off and you won't really draw them mid-combo with one in play and only two in the deck.

[Willoe]

It's very antiproductive for the deck. It's not an instant, so that strikes against the main concept of the deck: Ability to go off in the midgame and every after then. The CounterTop are dead draws midcombo. That could do in Spring Tide, but Spring Tide's sucky already. Why? Spring Tide is approx. 1 turn faster. That is irrelevant when you win, just that you win. I almost always combo in response to a game breaking effect that will cause me to lose.

For a deck like Solidarity, I don't believe in a "if you can't fight them, join them" concept. Solidarity can beat any deck given the skill of the player (and of course some luck, being a pro can't negate bad topdecks), and I really don't think it helps against any matchups by making it sorcery speed and adding a one-sided chalice at 1,2 and sometimes 3 effect. Really.

Find a good instant-speed way to battle countertop - and if you can do that without splashing a color (I'm thinking the determined half of Bound/Determined, Orim's Chant, Krosan's Grip etc.) - and you've pushed Solidarity to DTB status again, I think. Really, I'd love to see that happen.

[I'm a TROLL]

It's very antiproductive for the deck. It's not an instant, so that strikes against the main concept of the deck: Ability to go off in the midgame and every after then. The CounterTop are dead draws midcombo. That could do in Spring Tide, but Spring Tide's sucky already. Why? Spring Tide is approx. 1 turn faster. That is irrelevant when you win, just that you win. I almost always combo in response to a game breaking effect that will cause me to lose.

For a deck like Solidarity, I don't believe in a "if you can't fight them, join them" concept. Solidarity can beat any deck given the skill of the player (and of course some luck, being a pro can't negate bad topdecks), and I really don't think it helps against any matchups by making it sorcery speed and adding a one-sided chalice at 1,2 and sometimes 3 effect. Really.

Find a good instant-speed way to battle countertop - and if you can do that without splashing a color (I'm thinking the determined half of Bound/Determined, Orim's Chant, Krosan's Grip etc.) - and you've pushed Solidarity to DTB status again, I think. Really, I'd love to see that happen.

We already have a bunch of land, what is a few more permanents? Besides, the thrasholds deck doesnt exactly win fast. lets use this to the advantage

[Willoe]

There is a reason that an optimal list contains fetchlands. Deck thinning is highly important. I don't see the point of playing anymore permanents. It's only because we HAVE to play Islands that we do it to make the deck function. We don't have to play countertop. I really can't see what it should help against. Just play some Spell Snares.

And yes, Threshold is fast. But they don't care how long it takes to kill you. It isn't threshold's speed we're afraid of, just the counters. Even though the combat phase is pretty irrelevant for us, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose puts a heavy pressure on us, giving us little time to find what we need, if for example our High Tide just had been countered.

[I'm a TROLL]

There is a reason that an optimal list contains fetchlands. Deck thinning is highly important. I don't see the point of playing anymore permanents. It's only because we HAVE to play Islands that we do it to make the deck function. We don't have to play countertop. I really can't see what it should help against. Just play some Spell Snares.

And yes, Threshold is fast. But they don't care how long it takes to kill you. It isn't threshold's speed we're afraid of, just the counters. Even though the combat phase is pretty irrelevant for us, Tarmogoyf and Nimble Mongoose puts a heavy pressure on us, giving us little time to find what we need, if for example our High Tide just had been countered.

Thresh aint that fast. You said it yourself that the counters are most scary so counterbalace counters the counters. besides, they aren't going to side in krosan grip. they are ripe for the picking if we keep creatures off the board and hit combo. we dont even have to combo fully, a few short brain freeze will do.

[matamagos]

I also have had problems with counterbalance, they ara a real plague in my meta.

I have had an idea and I want to know what do you think about. In the slot where we usually fit in 4 opt or 2 opt-2 peek, what about bringing 3 repeal-1 peek???

Does someone has tested repeal in maindeck??? I think it's a good card to fight against counterbalance and it can be useful in other matchups, buying you time if you cast it in third turn against any kind of target.

[Bahamuth]

Grip is the best solution available to CB. Playing 4 Sideboard, we have 6 ways to get them, which is in most cases plenty. Here's a list Shimster posted on the Solidarity primer boards.

// Lands
10 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island

// Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 Reset
4 Force of Will
3 Remand
3 Cunning Wish
3 Meditate
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
2 Flash of Insight
2 Twincast

// Sideboard
3 Echoing Truth
4 Krosan Grip
2 Brain Freeze
2 Twincast
1 Meditate
1 Rebuild
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout

Sb plan against Thresh with CB:
-1 Meditate
-1 Turnabout
-3 Remand
-1 Opt
+2 Twincast
+1 Brain Freeze
+3 Krosan Grip

Twincasts haven't been in my build for quite some time, but I'm trying them out again. So far, I have mixed feelings. I'm usually really scared to use it as a combo piece, because you could get 2-for-1-ed easily. Yet, They've been really strong in other situations. They're very good against Sui variants for Twincasting opposing spells, but also Twincasting Flash of Insight, which can easily win you the game.

I'm not sure yet how they perform against Storm Combo, so I want to ask you guys if anyone has experience with that.

Shimster went 7-3 in matches (best of 2) against UGb Thresh with all scary stuff, and in the limited amount of games I played I went about even. I'm not saying this is any proof of this list beating Thresh, but it's certainly promising.
Serioulsy, the only card that still fucks you over is Confidant. That card is so good. It effectively put's you on a clock that's way faster than Thresh's usual clock.

Another question I wanted to ask here: Do you guys usually FoW Standstill? I find it's a pretty though call. Usually, the Standstill only nets the opponent about 1 Counter, so you'd be about even. On the other hand, if he draws more, he's in a better shape. Also, losing a bad card in your hand doesn't hurt as much as losing it in mid combo, since you have the time to refill your hand again pre-combo.

[I'm a TROLL]

decklist

I dont like splashing a color. you are too wasteland vulnerable. have you thought about the countertop idea i posted? The sensei's diving top is already amazing in the deck and than you sideboared in counterbalacne to really wreck face. This way those thrashold lists with wasteland are suddenly not a problem.

[Bahamuth]

Splashing a coulour is honestly not that much of a big deal. You've got the choice to fetch Trops. You wil rarely see them in your hand, and even more rarely against decks with Wasteland. If you're scared about them, run a single instead of 2.

I've thought about and tested the CB and Top. Top is definately not amazing mainboard. It's alright, but not amazing. Playing 5-6 dead cards post SB means your combo will get fucked a lot of times. Also, CB and Top both suck in multiples. You also don't want them if your opponent drops his first, and you have to wait one more turn to play around Daze.

[Jak]

It hurts the combo way too much to play more permanents. Grip is the best way to get rid of counterbalance. Decks packing wasteland won't play CB so just fetch out the basics.

[Bahamuth]

It hurts the combo way too much to play more permanents. Grip is the best way to get rid of counterbalance. Decks packing wasteland won't play CB so just fetch out the basics.

Exactly. I'd even go as far as saying that there aren't too many decks that pack Wasteland you don't have a very positive match against anyway. The only ones I can think of are Golbins and Tempo Thresh. Both are virtually non existant in my meta.

[I'm a TROLL]

Splashing a coulour is honestly not that much of a big deal. You've got the choice to fetch Trops. You wil rarely see them in your hand, and even more rarely against decks with Wasteland. If you're scared about them, run a single instead of 2.

I've thought about and tested the CB and Top. Top is definately not amazing mainboard. It's alright, but not amazing. Playing 5-6 dead cards post SB means your combo will get fucked a lot of times. Also, CB and Top both suck in multiples. You also don't want them if your opponent drops his first, and you have to wait one more turn to play around Daze.

Everytime i splash a color I get jacked by wasteland. Its not worth loosing to manascrew.

How cant top be amazing? Everytime I see it is a bomb. We play impulse, per through depths, opt, fetchlands, etc. to see new cards each time. It really is an amazing card even when going off! in multiple you can get past them. Counterbalence piches to Force of Will. Did you know that a fetchland and a Brainstorm is like a mini combo? You put back two card you dont need and then you use the fetchland to shuffle. This works with impulse etc.

You need to be able to see many cards to find either combo in hight ide or countertop.

[I'm a TROLL]

It hurts the combo way too much to play more permanents. Grip is the best way to get rid of counterbalance. Decks packing wasteland won't play CB so just fetch out the basics.

The top lets you get around drawing permanents!

[Jak]

Everytime i splash a color I get jacked by wasteland. Its not worth loosing to manascrew.

How cant top be amazing? Everytime I see it is a bomb. We play impulse, per through depths, opt, fetchlands, etc. to see new cards each time. It really is an amazing card even when going off! in multiple you can get past them. Counterbalence piches to Force of Will. Did you know that a fetchland and a Brainstorm is like a mini combo? You put back two card you dont need and then you use the fetchland to shuffle. This works with impulse etc.

You need to be able to see many cards to find either combo in hight ide or countertop.

The deck still needs to be able to combo out. Have you played the deck? Drawing lands as you combo out sucks enough and adding more permanents will make the deck fizzle much more.

[I'm a TROLL]

The deck still needs to be able to combo out. Have you played the deck? Drawing lands as you combo out sucks enough and adding more permanents will make the deck fizzle much more.

I know, but you can avoid bad cards with top or get rid of them using Brainstrom. Let me just say that I run the full 8 fetchlands so maybe that is part of your problem?

[Bahamuth]

Everytime i splash a color I get jacked by wasteland. Its not worth loosing to manascrew.

How cant top be amazing? Everytime I see it is a bomb. We play impulse, per through depths, opt, fetchlands, etc. to see new cards each time. It really is an amazing card even when going off! in multiple you can get past them. Counterbalence piches to Force of Will. Did you know that a fetchland and a Brainstorm is like a mini combo? You put back two card you dont need and then you use the fetchland to shuffle. This works with impulse etc.

You need to be able to see many cards to find either combo in hight ide or countertop.

Solidarity is a deck that's been designed to be consistent. Top will not improve this consistency. Top engine costs alot of mana, and prevents you from effectively playing better cantrips earlier on. If you do choose to play the cantrips, you will have a dead permanent in play.

Do you agree with me that Top is worse than all the other cantrips we play?

Saying that CB pitches to FoW is a bad argument, and it definatly doesn't make it playable. It's still dead in mid-combo. It's usually dead pre combo as well, as you have a much higher chance of playing it later than your opponent.

[I'm a TROLL]

Solidarity is a deck that's been designed to be consistent. Top will not improve this consistency. Top engine costs alot of mana, and prevents you from effectively playing better cantrips earlier on. If you do choose to play the cantrips, you will have a dead permanent in play.

Do you agree with me that Top is worse than all the other cantrips we play?

Saying that CB pitches to FoW is a bad argument, and it definatly doesn't make it playable. It's still dead in mid-combo. It's usually dead pre combo as well, as you have a much higher chance of playing it later than your opponent.

No, top is definetly not worse than other cantrips. You can use it during each turn.

Hey, also, what if they get countertop in play first? How do you expect to find anything when they counter all your spells?

If you play a turn 1 diving top, you can still have a ton of search using just only 1 diving top and 8 fetchland!

[Jak]

No, top is definetly not worse than other cantrips. You can use it during each turn.

Hey, also, what if they get countertop in play first? How do you expect to find anything when they counter all your spells?

If you play a turn 1 diving top, you can still have a ton of search using just only 1 diving top and 8 fetchland!

It is called 3cc. They really have nothing that can counter that with CB and we have Forces and remands of our own. Top will not help this deck at all.

[I'm a TROLL]

Did you guys know that Fetchland Tendrils uses Sensei"s diving top WITHOUT Counterbalance? This deck needs to be updated for the times and not live in 3 years ago.

[I'm a TROLL]

It is called 3cc. They really have nothing that can counter that with CB and we have Forces and remands of our own. Top will not help this deck at all.

sSO you expect to always the cuning wish in your hand with litle or no search? What if they Force of will or daze and you dont have Force?

[Bahamuth]

No, top is definetly not worse than other cantrips. You can use it during each turn.

Hey, also, what if they get countertop in play first? How do you expect to find anything when they counter all your spells?

If you play a turn 1 diving top, you can still have a ton of search using just only 1 diving top and 8 fetchland!

I'd never play 8 fetchland. I'm currenly not even playing 6. Fetchland are way worse than non-basics. Stifle and Trickbind (not so much) are way more common than Wasteland and are played in decks you're much more scared of. Also, the life-loss does matter.

Top sucks in multiples, given you're not playing too much fetchland. Top is mana-intensive and won't give you anything for the first mana investement. It only starts to do well once you put 3+ mana in it, at which point you're better off just playing blue cantrips. Top is Needleable. Top is dead in mid-combo (it won't even pitch to FoW).

In the version above here I play 3 Grips postboard and 3 ways of finding it with CC 3. Given that I have had at least one turn to cantrip and that CB usually doesn't come down on turn 2, I have plenty of options to find Grip. I can easily topdeck it after CB has resolved, because CB doesn't put me on a lock whatoever.

EDIT:

Did you guys know that Fetchland Tendrils uses Sensei"s diving top WITHOUT Counterbalance? This deck needs to be updated for the times and not live in 3 years ago.

Dude, Fetchland Tendrils can play Top mid combo, we can't. Also, Fetchland Tendrils definatly wouldn't play the card if it weren't for Doomsday.

[Willoe]

Say you're planning to go against the main concept of this deck by playing nonflash, nonland permanents. You take away everything good of the deck. Why don't you just side in 7 counterspells instead of doing this?

Adding CounterTop will not help against CounterTop. Seriously.

EDIT:

One mainboarded Elvish Spirit Guide and Krosan Grips in the wishboard could be a possibility. When not playing against CounterTop, side it out game 2.

Wasteland is now no more threat, as well as the singleton ESG can be useful midcombo. But can we get one spirit guide and a cunning wish in hand consistently? It's all a tough call.

[Jak]

sSO you expect to always the cuning wish in your hand with litle or no search? What if they Force of will or daze and you dont have Force?

This deck runs incredible amounts of dig. FT plays Top to combo with Doomsday and it also doesn't combo off at instant speed. Have you played Solidarity?

[Bahamuth]

Say you're planning to go against the main concept of this deck by playing nonflash, nonland permanents. You take away everything good of the deck. Why don't you just side in 7 counterspells instead of doing this?

Adding CounterTop will not help against CounterTop. Seriously.

EDIT:

One mainboarded Elvish Spirit Guide and Krosan Grips in the wishboard could be a possibility. When not playing against CounterTop, side it out game 2.

Wasteland is now no more threat, as well as the singleton ESG can be useful midcombo. But can we get one spirit guide and a cunning wish in hand consistently? It's all a tough call.

One? Why one? Why at all? ESG goes against our controllish concept and gived carddisadvantage. Why doesn't Tropical Island do enough?

[I'm a TROLL]

I'd never play 8 fetchland. I'm currenly not even playing 6. Fetchland are way worse than non-basics. Stifle and Trickbind (not so much) are way more common than Wasteland and are played in decks you're much more scared of. Also, the life-loss does matter.

Top sucks in multiples, given you're not playing too much fetchland. Top is mana-intensive and won't give you anything for the first mana investement. It only starts to do well once you put 3+ mana in it, at which point you're better off just playing blue cantrips. Top is Needleable. Top is dead in mid-combo (it won't even pitch to FoW).

In the version above here I play 3 Grips postboard and 3 ways of finding it with CC 3. Given that I have had at least one turn to cantrip and that CB usually doesn't come down on turn 2, I have plenty of options to find Grip. I can easily topdeck it after CB has resolved, because CB doesn't put me on a lock whatoever.

EDIT:


Dude, Fetchland Tendrils can play Top mid combo, we can't. Also, Fetchland Tendrils definatly wouldn't play the card if it weren't for Doomsday.

Dude, but we have waaaaaay more search! They gots the rituals and stuff like that where we just need a single high tide.

What is this Doomsday?

[Jak]

Dude, but we have waaaaaay more search! They gots the rituals and stuff like that where we just need a single high tide.

So why are you trying to add more that, in the end, will hurt the deck when comboing?

[I'm a TROLL]

Say you're planning to go against the main concept of this deck by playing nonflash, nonland permanents. You take away everything good of the deck. Why don't you just side in 7 counterspells instead of doing this?

Adding CounterTop will not help against CounterTop. Seriously.

EDIT:

One mainboarded Elvish Spirit Guide and Krosan Grips in the wishboard could be a possibility. When not playing against CounterTop, side it out game 2.

Wasteland is now no more threat, as well as the singleton ESG can be useful midcombo. But can we get one spirit guide and a cunning wish in hand consistently? It's all a tough call.

If you get it in play they can't play countertop or creatures? they wont have sided in krosan grip and side out explosives. it wrecks faces.

The ESG doesnt sound good to me. Wasteland can still hurt you bad when you have a trop in your opening hand.

[I'm a TROLL]

I'd never play 8 fetchland. I'm currenly not even playing 6. Fetchland are way worse than non-basics. Stifle and Trickbind (not so much) are way more common than Wasteland and are played in decks you're much more scared of. Also, the life-loss does matter.

Dude, you strategically crack your fetches when they either use their or play a spell. plus they usually hold that stuff so they can get some kind of clock on you. Its a non-issue

[I'm a TROLL]

This deck runs incredible amounts of dig. FT plays Top to combo with Doomsday and it also doesn't combo off at instant speed. Have you played Solidarity?

why would i be posting if i havent played the deck? top adds to the dig

Stop double and triple posting. Warning and infractions will be issued if it continues.
-TOOL

[Bahamuth]

If you get it in play they can't play countertop or creatures? they wont have sided in krosan grip and side out explosives. it wrecks faces.

The ESG doesnt sound good to me. Wasteland can still hurt you bad when you have a trop in your opening hand.

As I already said, it can, but it won't often enough to give it a too big disadvantage to play.

Concerning the CounterTop issue, please just try it out for yourself. If you still belive it's good after you tested it, I'll get back to is as well.


Dude, you strategically crack your fetches when they either use their or play a spell. plus they usually hold that stuff so they can get some kind of clock on you. Its a non-issue

I'm not stupid, I know that as well. It's just not that simple. A good Thresh player can easily keep mana open for Stifle and execute the same plan as they would normally. Also, you can't always crack fetch once your opponent taps out, since you have Brainstorm to watch for as well.

[Jak]

why would i be posting if i havent played the deck? top adds to the dig

Because this deck needs to go off at instant speed. That is what gives it its resiliency. If you start adding more cards that can't be cast as you combo off, then you are just hurting the deck. You will fizzle a lot more of the time and that is not what this deck wants. The first few turns of the game are already filled up by playing Brainstorm, Impulse and all your other instant speed cantrips. Top is unnecessary. It and CB won't reliably stop CB from hitting the table so you might as well go with Grip because that will knock out CB 99% of the time.

[I'm a TROLL]

As I already said, it can, but it won't often enough to give it a too big disadvantage to play.

Concerning the CounterTop issue, please just try it out for yourself. If you still belive it's good after you tested it, I'll get back to is as well.



I'm not stupid, I know that as well. It's just not that simple. A good Thresh player can easily keep mana open for Stifle and execute the same plan as they would normally. Also, you can't always crack fetch once your opponent taps out, since you have Brainstorm to watch for as well.

I tried out countertop because all i have to do is simply add counterbalance to the deck. It works more than you think.

As far as fetches, whats the big deal? you know when to play them then you should be fine. Their's nothing like playing down 2 fetchlands to show your opponent that you do indeed have mana thus they dont try to stifle you.

[I'm a TROLL]

Because this deck needs to go off at instant speed. That is what gives it its resiliency. If you start adding more cards that can't be cast as you combo off, then you are just hurting the deck. You will fizzle a lot more of the time and that is not what this deck wants. The first few turns of the game are already filled up by playing Brainstorm, Impulse and all your other instant speed cantrips. Top is unnecessary. It and CB won't reliably stop CB from hitting the table so you might as well go with Grip because that will knock out CB 99% of the time.

You can't fizzle against thrashold because they arent very fast and you have the time to set it up. In this case, the top helps greatly in going off.

Stop double and triple posting. Warning and infractions will be issued if it continues.
-TOOL

[Sanguine Voyeur]

You can't fizzle against thrashold because they arent very fast and you have the time to set it up. In this case, the top helps greatly in going off.Have you ever played against Thresh? Thresh is one of the most difficult match ups due to its fast clock and disruption.

[I'm a TROLL]

Have you ever played against Thresh? Thresh is one of the most difficult match ups due to its fast clock and disruption.

of course i played against the thresh. Countertop is amazing against them especially because they have no krosan grip. Plus, Tarmogoyf is only like a 2/3 that is why they are slow against this.

Also, if I go turn 1 top, I play Commandeer as a wish target to steal their Counterbalace. I forgot to mention this so maybe that is why you are having trouble visualizing.

The bigest prolem we have is counterbalace, which in turn wrecks them worse because your brain freeze storms past counters.

Once you get countertop in play your hand size is irrelevant

[Shimster]

Seriously, stop posting in this thread. ;)

Goyf is at least 3/4 (Instant, Land, Sorcery), most of the time it is even larger (Creature, Enchantment). It might not be as fast as Werebear was once, but Threshold isn't _that_ easy to defeat.

Last tournament, I played against a NQGr/Stiflenought hybrid. While I thought black Dreadstill is already a very bad MU, this deck is even worse! Tempo gaming hits Solidarity badly (Spell Snare on Impulse, Stifle on Fetch, etc.).

I am retesting Twincast at the moment, alongside with a light green splash in the sideboard. It's very promising so far (7-3 in matches against NQGb, lucky me :laugh:).

[I'm a TROLL]

Seriously, stop posting in this thread. ;)

Goyf is at least 3/4 (Instant, Land, Sorcery), most of the time it is even larger (Creature, Enchantment). It might not be as fast as Werebear was once, but Threshold isn't _that_ easy to defeat.

Last tournament, I played against a NQGr/Stiflenought hybrid. While I thought black Dreadstill is already a very bad MU, this deck is even worse! Tempo gaming hits Solidarity badly (Spell Snare on Impulse, Stifle on Fetch, etc.).

I am retesting Twincast at the moment, alongside with a light green splash in the sideboard. It's very promising so far (7-3 in matches against NQGb, lucky me :laugh:).



Sometimes it is a 2/3, sometimes a 3/4. Very rarely is it larger than 3/4.

How is Twincast supposed help against nought decks? Doesn't seem very good to me. If you played Countertop the match up would improve, though

[Rood]

Seriously, stop posting in this thread. ;)

Goyf is at least 3/4 (Instant, Land, Sorcery), most of the time it is even larger (Creature, Enchantment). It might not be as fast as Werebear was once, but Threshold isn't _that_ easy to defeat.

Last tournament, I played against a NQGr/Stiflenought hybrid. While I thought black Dreadstill is already a very bad MU, this deck is even worse! Tempo gaming hits Solidarity badly (Spell Snare on Impulse, Stifle on Fetch, etc.).

I am retesting Twincast at the moment, alongside with a light green splash in the sideboard. It's very promising so far (7-3 in matches against NQGb, lucky me :laugh:).

Dreadstill is a very, very bad MU for Solidarity agreed. Me and my teammate vanele tested it a while back when i created the deck and i think i went like 20-0 on him(no exaggerations). Even when you draw bad hands you can just draw into stuff that can stop them from comboing off for the most part.

[J.V.]

Dreadstill is a very, very bad MU for Solidarity agreed. Me and my teammate vanele tested it a while back when i created the deck and i think i went like 20-0 on him(no exaggerations). Even when you draw bad hands you can just draw into stuff that can stop them from comboing off for the most part.
Trickbind probably isn't that broken in the matchup...:rolleyes:

[I'm a TROLL]

Dreadstill is a very, very bad MU for Solidarity agreed. Me and my teammate vanele tested it a while back when i created the deck and i think i went like 20-0 on him(no exaggerations). Even when you draw bad hands you can just draw into stuff that can stop them from comboing off for the most part.

Wow, that is mad crazieness! The power of countertop just cannot be denied, it is the only real way to improve all of these bad match ups! Argh!

[Rood]

Nah, just answer countertop which has already been mentioned in the thread many times. Snare is one option but I tend to favor Krosan Grip myself.

[herbig]

Solidarity is an instant speed combo deck. It runs lands and instants. While I wouldn't say it can't run non instants at all, Top is a really bad one. I sucks up your mana and isn't better than the blue cantrips you're running. Also, adding enough non instants to have counter/top negates your ability to combo completely.



Without removal or creatures as backup, you're going to spend a lot of time setting up a combo that loses to a turn 1/2 creature, while not helping you go off.

Commandeer is a 3 mana/card answer to a two mana threat they don't need to resolve to win. You spent all that and now you can't combo against them. Turn one Top is only going to happen occasionally if you're playing 4 of them. Again, bad idea.

And good players always, always Stifle the lands. Whether you have 1 land in your hand or 5, it's about tempo, not how many you're drawing. By the time you're comboing, Stifle is dead.

Honestly, none of your arguments on anything here have any merit whatsoever.

I'd be interested in a way to beat Counterbalance with instants. Has anyone tried maindeck Repeal?

[Rood]

The problem with Repeal is you're most likely going to be tapping out to play it and it will just get hit with all kinds of hate. Hell, Daze will probally counter it. So if all your oponent has to do is counter Repeal thats going to really be bad for you. You want split second bounce: Wipe Away.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I like Cryptic Command better, it offers versatility, and is almost impossible to counter with CB. And a cantripping fog can be strong against, say, Goblins or Ichorid.

[herbig]

The thing with Repeal is that it's more useful as a cantrip in the early game. Going second, you can bounce a Lackey or whatever. You can gain a lot of time from other decks by bouncing a Goyf. Against Ichorid it cantrips for one mana during combo.

Also you get to bounce a Chrome Mox in response to Infernal Tutor by turn 1, giving you slightly more outs against Tendrils than just FOW.

Three mana is out of CB range, and one less so you can more easily get around Daze. I'm saying maindeck it could be strong, but obviously you'd want split second from the side.

[lebarion]

@Bahamut: Regarding countering Standstill, I usually try to brainstorm/opt in response to it. If I can asure my next 2 or 3 land drops, I don't counter it. Otherwise, I Force it. I guess you can see the logic behind this, I'm too lazy to explain :wink:.

In a sad note, I've lost 1-2 to UWb CunningStill last tournament I went to. Sencond turn Meddling Mage with Force backup and third turn Mishra's Factory in BOTH games 2 and 3 are not good news. :cry:

About Repeal, I've never though seriously about it, but Herbig has good reasons. I'll give it a try.

I really don't think counterbalance fits here. I hate drawing useless cards midcombo, and counmterbalance and top would make this worse. You actually have turns 2 and 3 to play it, then it becomes useless. I think that in order to convince people here otherwise, someone will have to show really broken plays/results.

[Bahamuth]

Why exactly won't we run Grip over Repeal? Destroying a CB is infinitely much better than bouncing it, especially in the matches that tend to be slower than usual aggro, like Thresh. As I already said, with Cunning Wish, there are 6 ways of finding Grip, together with a whole lot of cantrips we can play before a CB lands.

Dreadstill seems like a terrible matchup indeed. I'm glad absolutely no one plays that over here. Perhaps Grips will make the match a bit more manageable though.

[Willoe]

Wow, that is mad crazieness! The power of countertop just cannot be denied, it is the only real way to improve all of these bad match ups! Argh!

Not to flame you, but that is clearly one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard. CounterTop does:

-Takes 7 slots in the deck, that blows a lot
-Nothing against the decks you want to defeat
-Not answer our biggest fear, namely opposing CounterTop

That's it. I simply can't see why CounterTop would carry this deck into higher tiers.

Shimster is a Solidarity player, I only play Solidarity occasionally, but I can still tell - with great ease - that you have no understanding in this deck's philosophy and entire gameplan.

So when Shimster tells you to gtfo suggesting CounterTop, you better listen.

CounterTop could possibly do in Spring Tide, but then go post there.

The power of CounterTop just cannot be denied - True, but likewise it can't be supported in this deck.

I can't see why CounterTop should help against Threshold. Explain why it rocks their socks.

[e_hawk77]

I have tested repeal and it is good, very good, however it is not very good versus black thresh or sui black. Like bahamuth keeps saying dark confidant is the biggest threat in both of the two decks followed by counterbalance and hymm to tourach. Spell snare counters all of these. I have been trying the green splash and k. grips help tons, being most of the hate vs this deck is artifact or enchantment. Overall i think that spell snare is a more useful card then repeal after having tested both.

[I'm a TROLL]

Not to flame you, but that is clearly one of the most hilarious things I've ever heard. CounterTop does:

-Takes 7 slots in the deck, that blows a lot
-Nothing against the decks you want to defeat
-Not answer our biggest fear, namely opposing CounterTop

That's it. I simply can't see why CounterTop would carry this deck into higher tiers.

Shimster is a Solidarity player, I only play Solidarity occasionally, but I can still tell - with great ease - that you have no understanding in this deck's philosophy and entire gameplan.

So when Shimster tells you to gtfo suggesting CounterTop, you better listen.

CounterTop could possibly do in Spring Tide, but then go post there.

The power of CounterTop just cannot be denied - True, but likewise it can't be supported in this deck.

I can't see why CounterTop should help against Threshold. Explain why it rocks their socks.


Okay, whell I already play Sensei's diving top main so I ONLY side in Counterbalance. Thresholds are very popular in my metagame.

You'd be happy to note that I went 1-1 vs. Threshold in the tournament last week at it was the Countertop that won me game 2 in the first match. The 2nd match I got smashed because he saw all 4 Force of Will the first seven turn all WITHOUT ANY SEARCH! If it was the 4th Force on my wished Commandeer toward his Counerbalance and he would have gotton Countertop locked.

*** They get Countertop locked because they dont side in Krosan grip and side out Enginered Explosions!! ***

[Willoe]

Urgh, repulsive username. Don't worry, I'll take your post seriously.

Why do you even bother with Solidarity if Threshold fills your metagame? Going 1-1 isn't pretty good, did you draw?

How did you beat Threshold with Counterbalance?

Okay, but the awesome thing about Threshold is that they always have FoWs in their opening hand. As certain as gravity. Nah, just joking. Bad luck indeed, that happens rarely.


If it was the 4th Force on my wished Commandeer toward his Counerbalance and he would have gotton Countertop locked.

I don't understand that, what do you even mean?

Okay, very nice, but are you sure you don't perform better without mainboarded sensei's divining top? Your post isn't very empiric, no data at all, just that you went whopping 1-1 against threshold. Wow, srsly.

Look, I might be a bit harsh, but I'm so tired of peolpe who think that SDT and Counterbalance should be in Solidarity. It's very, very antiproductive, and unless you are lucky as shit when you Meditate, you'll most likely seeing many, many more dead cards, thus making you more inconsistent. That is pure shit for the deck, and once we combo off, we want to win, not risk our win even more that we already do - with lethal damage on the stack, drawing that crappy Divining Top can cost you the game. Do we want that? Fuck no.

[Van Phanel]

It seems his name got changed by the mods (and they were right doing so).

Still you're right: Dead cards midcombo just suck (that's why I don't like spell Snare anymore).

Just once again in case people didn't read that argument earlier: if anyone wants to play a deck with Counterbalance, that someone must totally be able to deal with threats his opponent might have resolved before that Top + Counterbalance came into play (which happens turn2 only every now and then) and the threat we'd have to deal with here is mainly an opposing Counterbalance. Cards that are great in your opener are nice (Spell Snare anyone?) but Solidarity lives from playing 42 cards that are useful at any point of the game (aside from the manaproducing spells on turns 1-3 sometimes).

[Trancerogue]

I agree with Van Phanel on all his points. Spell has not really grown on me over the last month and I do feel it becomes a dead card after the 3rd turn. Heres some points and some new ideas (well sort of new ideas) Ive been thinking about.

Should I go back to + 2 Twincast main deck? heres my list again.

// Lands
12 [10E] Island (1)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
3 [TE] Meditate
4 [IN] Opt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [10E] Twincast

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 2 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 2 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild

That is a list I have done well with and if you read a few pages back I had a recent 4-1 showing with the decking going 4-0 in the swiss rounds. IMO heres what I was thinking: Does twincast belong in the main deck or a Wish target in the board? I think it does belong, at least 1 copy in the board.

Second, Should we go back to Accumulated Knowledge?
Here would be my changes:
-2 opt -2 Twincast + 4 AK's

This would be very good vs discard and provide late combo "meditates". Also, this would provide + 10 cards if all copies were played in the game.

Third, Should we add Think Twice?
Heres my changes:
-1 Opt -2 Twincast + 3 Think Twice

It would provide 6 extra cards if you play it and it would also help dig is a chalice of the void landed in play.

Just some more ideas on the deck and ideas I think we should try to figure out and move on to more important ideas like sideboarding.

Joe

[e_hawk77]

I have been doinf some testing and it seems like twincast is better then spell snare. Its one of the most useful cards out of the board. Spell snare is amazing if u have it before the combo which doesnt happen often enough, where twincast is useful with so many spells in the deck and opposing spell like force of will or even more fun spells like fact or fiction or ancestral visions.

I do have a question though. How did the person the posted a 7-3 vs black thresh play against them and how did u board. There is a decline in the amount of thresh in my area but if u are matched up against one it is black thresh.

[I'm a TROLL]

Urgh, repulsive username. Don't worry, I'll take your post seriously.

Why do you even bother with Solidarity if Threshold fills your metagame? Going 1-1 isn't pretty good, did you draw?

How did you beat Threshold with Counterbalance?

Okay, but the awesome thing about Threshold is that they always have FoWs in their opening hand. As certain as gravity. Nah, just joking. Bad luck indeed, that happens rarely.



I don't understand that, what do you even mean?

Okay, very nice, but are you sure you don't perform better without mainboarded sensei's divining top? Your post isn't very empiric, no data at all, just that you went whopping 1-1 against threshold. Wow, srsly.

Look, I might be a bit harsh, but I'm so tired of peolpe who think that SDT and Counterbalance should be in Solidarity. It's very, very antiproductive, and unless you are lucky as shit when you Meditate, you'll most likely seeing many, many more dead cards, thus making you more inconsistent. That is pure shit for the deck, and once we combo off, we want to win, not risk our win even more that we already do - with lethal damage on the stack, drawing that crappy Divining Top can cost you the game. Do we want that? Fuck no.

I went 1 and 1 in matches. I beat Threshold because of what I've been saying. I resolved an early Countertop and then proceeded to counter all of his creatures - which gave me all day to go off. Of course he didn
t side in Krosan Grips- who would? I just went off with a few Brain Freeze effects.

That thing you don't understand, here's what happens:

I get down a Sensei's diving top, so does he. When he plays his Counterbalnce I wish for Commandeer to steal it and gg! he just happens to go nuts with every FoW

[Van Phanel]

What would you have done if he had played a turn 2 Tarmogoyf? Or, even worse, his own Counterbalance?

Even if I'm repeating myself: for Counter Top to be effective you need a (reliable) way to deal with threads that slip past it or get down before you get it online. In Solidarity, if you want a way to prevent opposing Counterbalances from hitting play, have Force of Will ready (or maybe Spell Snare if you like it). If you reguarly have the time to find CB + Top and play them, then you should totally be winning anyways.

Also a 1-1 against Threshold is nothing special, actually if two games are played, this is the most likely result.

@Shimster: I'd be interested about you games against Black Thresh as well. Do you think, you are able to post a short summary of the games, how you won them and who you played against?

[Bahamuth]

What would you have done if he had played a turn 2 Tarmogoyf? Or, even worse, his own Counterbalance?

Even if I'm repeating myself: for Counter Top to be effective you need a (reliable) way to deal with threads that slip past it or get down before you get it online. In Solidarity, if you want a way to prevent opposing Counterbalances from hitting play, have Force of Will ready (or maybe Spell Snare if you like it). If you reguarly have the time to find CB + Top and play them, then you should totally be winning anyways.

Also a 1-1 against Threshold is nothing special, actually if two games are played, this is the most likely result.

@Shimster: I'd be interested about you games against Black Thresh as well. Do you think, you are able to post a short summary of the games, how you won them and who you played against?

I know the boarding plan was something like -3 Remand -1 Impulse and -1 Flash of Insight for 3 Grip and 2 Twincast.

Personally I'd do:
-3 Remand
-1 Meditate
-1 Turnabout
-1 Opt
+3 Grip
+2 Twincast
+1 Brain Freeze

[deadlock]

Personally I'd do:
-3 Remand
-1 Meditate
-1 Turnabout
-1 Opt
+3 Grip
+2 Twincast
+1 Brain Freeze

Whats the reasoning behind this boarding plan?

First of i never side out business like Meditate and Turnabout.
When playing against CB i want to hit as much key spells as possible without the need to look for them via cantrips. It happens that CB especially hits these setup spells (cmc 1 and 2).

Second why bother and clunk up your deck with stuff like Twincast and Brain Freeze? The only thing you can hit with TC is FoW and the multiple small combo start doesnt work that well because of their clock.

For comparison my sb plan against balanced ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh:
-1 Remand
-1 Impulse
-1 Opt
+3 Grip

With currently 1 MD Cryptic Command and 4 Remand.

Like i said, when CB hits you cant sculpt your hand with cantrips so i side these two out.
1 Remand because its a little bit too slow and i dont want to cut any other crucial card. On the other hand CB doesnt always come down turn two so its still great to have some.

EDIT: I forgot that you meant black ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, i thought of the normal Ugw version.
In this case Twincast is indeed handy versus Thoughtseize.

I would go like above then and additionaly
-1 another Remand and maybe the third Renabd or the second Opt, i am undecided here.

[Bahamuth]

Whats the reasoning behind this boarding plan?

First of i never side out business like Meditate and Turnabout.
When playing against CB i want to hit as much key spells as possible without the need to look for them via cantrips. It happens that CB especially hits these setup spells (cmc 1 and 2).

Second why bother and clunk up your deck with stuff like Twincast and Brain Freeze? The only thing you can hit with TC is FoW and the multiple small combo start doesnt work that well because of their clock.

For comparison my sb plan against balanced ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh:
-1 Remand
-1 Impulse
-1 Opt
+3 Grip

With currently 1 MD Cryptic Command and 4 Remand.

Like i said, when CB hits you cant sculpt your hand with cantrips so i side these two out.
1 Remand because its a little bit too slow and i dont want to cut any other crucial card. On the other hand CB doesnt always come down turn two so its still great to have some.

EDIT: I forgot that you meant black ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, i thought of the normal Ugw version.
In this case Twincast is indeed handy versus Thoughtseize.

I would go like above then and additionaly
-1 another Remand and maybe the third Renabd or the second Opt, i am undecided here.

Remand sucks against Threshold. It really does. Basically against every version. You can't reliably counter anything, except for a turn 3 drop with you on the play, because of Daze. After that, Remand shouldn't be in your hand anymore anyway.

Brain Freeze, on the other hand, is really good against Thresh. Fighting trough counters drains a lot of resources, and you will often find a Brain Freeze in your hand a good card. You can even go off more than once, finishing both with a small Freeze. This plan does work well. It did work in the past and it does work better now, since Thesh's clock slightly slowed because of both Counterbalance, which doesn't attack usually, and Goyf in place of Werebear.

I board out business because I have acces to Twincast, which can function as either. I realise it's dangerous, but with some smart playing you can usually use one for an extra untap of Meditate.

[Van Phanel]

Cutting Flash of Insight? Against Counterbalance? Seriously?

I do like the rest of that (Shimster's) plan though.

Boarding out Meditate is not a good plan. Against Counterbalance, Meditate can still be used as a setup spell to refill your hand (especially useful after a counterwar about CB involving FoW, but also if their Counterbalance resolved).

[Hightower]

When is your report coming Van Phanel? =)

[Zinch]

What do you thing about this deck??

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=19266

It has some variations such 3 twincast and 2 think twice that I personaly dislike, but it has performed well

[slyfer]

I don't like the loss of remand in the reset version. The faerie version is faster and can run on fow, but this is quite meh...
No tempo gain...
Think twice is good only in discard/control meta. I would play 1x in general meta.

[Van Phanel]

When is your report coming Van Phanel? =)

Right now :smile:

I played the sideevent of GP Kopenhagen with my Command-list and decided I would write a report about it. As this is in the Solidarity thread, I'll try to be rather detailed (in the interesting games at least) and I'd absolutely like to hear some opinions about my plays:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
12 Island

4 High Tide
4 Brainstorm
3 Opt
1 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
3 Remand
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Turnabout
2 Cryptic Command
4 Force of Will
2 Flash of Insight

SB:
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Brain Freeze
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
2 Wipe Away
3 Echoing Truth
3 Hydroblast
2 Twincast
1 Rebuild

Round 1:
Daniel with MUC

After two turns of Island, go I Peek him and see a combination of Propaganda, Shackles and Counters. I have a hard time hitting my landdrops, but get to five lands and a hand with 2 High Tide, 2 Turnabout, Meditate and 2 FoW. To avoid having to discard, I go for a half-hearted combo-attempt with one High Tide, Turnabout, he has Counterspell, Turnabout, he has FoW pitch Propaganda and I say ok. In my turn I had planned to resolve my Meditate but I topdeck Flash of Insight and use that to refill my hand. Two FoWs in hand suck in this matchup because you need cardadvantage rather than brute force so I hardcast FoW on a Sensei's Divining Top. Some turns later I go for the combo again and he again has two counters which resolve. In my turn I resolve Meditate past his FoW with my own FoW and hold 5 cards opposed to his 3. He gets antoher Top in his extraturn but nothing else and I Rebuild my hand for another combo-attempt. When I go for it for the third time he plays a Fact or Fiction in response to an untap and it resolves as he'd need three relevant spells in his five to make a difference. He reveals Powder Keg, Shackles and 3 lands and I split 5 to 0 as it doesn't matter. He then can counter three times but this time I'm set up properly and thanks to sitting on 11 Island I can easily work my way through his counters.

SB: - 1 High Tide, - 1 FoW, + 2 Twincast

G2: We both don't do much for the first few turns and when I'm ready for my first faked combo-attempt, he just doesn't try to counter so I make a real combo-attempt out of it. It seems he either has absolutely nothing or he's going to wait for my Brain Freeze and try to Stifle it. The latter turns to be correct and after I've worked past his Stifle and two counters the game is over.

1-0

We talk a little bit about our games and he tells me this was his first Legacy-Tournament. You could say he had a rough start. I explain some things about the matchup to him but also tell him that he has close to no way to ever win this matchup and we go on to round 2.

Round2:
Rasmus with 4-Color Landstill

In game 1 I have trouble hitting landdrops and have to break two early standstills in search for land. I still get stuck on three land for two turns but then I draw two lands in a row. I go for it in response to a third Standstill with a hand of 2 High Tide, Reset, Remand, Brain Freeze, Brain Freeze. He lets both High Tides resolve and counters Reset. I Remand it, he counters again, I let Standstill resolve, Brain Freeze him, with the original first Brain Freeze + Standstill Trigger on stack I Brain Freeze him again and win.

SB: - 1 High Tide, - 1 Reset, - 1 FoW, - 1 Impulse, + 2 Twincast, + 1 Wipe Away, + 1 Echoing Truth

In G2 he again has two early standstills but he has no manlands and when I go for it with six lands he only has a single counter and an Extirpate on High Tide but I can totally live with that.

2-0

Round3:
Sander with Merfolk

He wins the diceroll and starts with a Cursecatcher. My hand is not great angainst a deck with disruption and a fast clock, so I can just hope that he won't have to many lords. When he has turn 2 Lord of Atlantis those hopes get crushed and I play Brainstorm into his Cursecatcher. He likes his Merfolk though and I manage to find a third land and High Tide. He gets even more aggressive with turn 3 Wake Thrasher and I FoW which kills his Cursecatcher. I play my third land and he has a Merrow Rejerey. When he has a Cursecatcher in addition to that, untapping a land would make his Thrasher lethal so I have to go for it. I resolve High Tide Reset Meditate but can't find another untap in Opt + Opt + Brainstorm and I'm dead.

When I take my notes he asks if I'm writing a report for The Source and it turns out that he is registered here as Hightower. He is a cool guy and after the games we talk a bit about our decks and Legacy in Denmark (which seems to be pretty much non-existent).

SB: none

In game 2 he starts with Vial and I Peek him seeing FoW + Lord + Wake Thrasher + Rishadan Port + lands. Especially the Port could be a problem and I build up my hand. On his turn 3 he goes for Wake Thrasher, I FoW and he FoWs back. When he has a second Rishadan Port and lethal damage onboard I know that I am in trouble with maximum five lands in play and High Tide + 2 Turnabout. I can't combo in his turn so I try to fake being Spring Tide. In my upkeep he taps to lands and I play High Tide, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, Meditate. Then I go to my mainphase, play a land and try to find some more carddraw in Opt and 2 Brainstorm. both reveal nothing but Resets, FoWs, lands and another High Tide and I'm dead again.

2-1

Round 4:
Peter with U-g-r Dreadstill

In game 1 he starts with a turn two Standstill and two Factories but has trouble to hit his colored landdrops. I play an Impulse at the end of his turn and he has to discard 3 cards. On his next turn he goes for a Nought but I play an Eot Cunning Wish for Wipe Away and bounce it. He tries for Top + CB on his next turn but has no blue mana left and I combo in response. He can only counter once and I even though I don't hit enough drawspells I can Brain Freeze him for exactly his 45 cards.

SB: - 1 Cunning Wish, - 1 Remand, + 2 Wipe Away. (I hadn't seen any red, otherwise I'd have boarded Twincast in order to fight possible Red blasts)

He mulls to six but I do even worse and go to five. He has Factory + Island and on three lands I Peek him to see Dreadnought, Fow, CB, Pyroblast and Goyf. He draws Volcanic and Fecthland on his next two turns and I am stuck on four lands. I hold Reset, Reset, Meditate, Remand, 2 FoW and I go for an EoT Reset. He Pyroblasts it and I Remand it exactly as planned. The next turn I go for the combo in response to his CB with Reset, he FoWs, I FoW pich FoW and Meditate resolve but doesn't find a High Tide. I try for an Impulse and then Opt but without High Tide I can't win.

SB: - 1 Impulse, + 1 Twincast

I Peek him again and he reveals nothing but blue cards. 2 FoW, 2 Trickbind, Stifle and Trinket Mage. He tutors for a Nought a gets it into play. I can Wipe Away it twice but he plays it again the next turn. He then FoWs my Cryptic Command for another bounce and I go for the combo the turn when he'd have lethal damage with 5 land, High Tide, Meditate, Turnabout and Remand. My mana resolves and he FoWs my Meditate as expected, I Remand it - and he has drawn the third FoW and his 12/12 beater kills me.

2-2

Round 5:
Anders with Dredge
In game 1 I keep a probable turn 3 kill with FoW backup and he starts with City of Brass, LED, Breakthrough. I Force his Breakthrough and he discards one Ichorid, Troll and Imp. On his turn2 he dredges for six and hits a second Ichorid, lots of black creatures and another Troll. I have an Opt and my hand consists of 2 High Tide, Reset, 2 Meditate and the third land. He gets both Ichorids into play, hits Narcomoeba, Dread Return, Cabal Therapy, Bridge from Below and Cephalid Sage in his five dredged cards and he kills me.

SB: - 2 Cryptic Command, - 1 Cunning Wish, + 3 Echoing Truth

I start with Peek and he has kept Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, 2 Dredgers, 1 Cabal Therapy and Narcomoeba. I FoW his careful Study and he only has a go. My hand looks like maybe a turn 4-kill, probably slower, but has an Echoing Truth. He draws Gemstone Mine from the top and tears my hand apart with two Therapies, then Therapies himself for Troll and kills me with his Coliseum.

2-3 (I considered dropping but I wanted to write that report and there was nothing else to do anyway)

Round 6:
Mathias with Rock featuring Tarmogoyf, Confidant and Intuition.

He starts with a Thoughtseize and a whole lot of discard and the turn before he's going to kill me, he Duresses me seeing 2 High Tides but nothing else. Naturally he takes one and I untap with only one card and 6 lands in play. I draw: Impulse. When he tries to attack me, I play, High Tide, Impulse, Meditate draw untap + another Meditate, kill him. He couldn't believe it.

SB: - 1 High Tide, + 1 Twincast

He plays only a Goyf and Top in his first turns and when he goes for a Duress I already have four lands. In response, I play High Tide, Reset, Turnabout, Wish, Stroke me for Ten and show him a hand of 11 cards. Naturally he dies two turns later in response to another Duress.

3-3

Round 7: Axel with Enchantress.

I've seen him playing during the last few rounds, so I know he's playing Enchantress. He does nothing preboard, except playing a Sterling Grove and saccing it for a Confinement. When he has one Enchantress' Presence in play he plays his Confinement and I mill him for enough in reponse.

SB: + 2 Echoing Truth, - 2 ??

In g2 I hit my first landdrops and get to Remand a Choke twice. Then I let it resolve, he also gets Sterling Grove, Runed Halo on Brain Freeze and Wheel of Sun and Moon, but I just go for the combo and kill him two Echoing Truths and one Cryptic Command later.

4-3

To sum this up, I think I was rather unlucky with not at least going 5-2. All matches I won were complete Blowouts and I should have won both that last game against Dreadstill if he hadn't topdecked his third FoW and game 2 against Merfolk where I didn't find any draw with about 20 mana available. Losing against Dredge is alright, this matchup is that bad.

Any thoughts on my plays or sideboard-plans?

- Van

[jazzykat]

How was cryptic command in the deck. It would seem that remand, is way cooler especially since it costs half as much to cast.

[Citrus-God]

How was cryptic command in the deck. It would seem that remand, is way cooler especially since it costs half as much to cast.

Yes, but it seems that Remand is slowly losing it's use in this format. It's soo bad against Thresh, Spell Snare and Cryptic Command do so much better against the format.

[Zinch]

I love the remands. I loved them since its inclusion in the deck and I'm not considering cutting them yet (in my meta thresh isn't very popular).
I think the discusion is between cryptic command and spell snare. I use the later because is very good aganist my meta: goyf, confidant, counterbalance,hymn to tourach, counterspell,chalice at one, devastating dreams, piledriver... and the list goes on. Cryptic command only shines against a resolved counterbalance or to timewalk an aggro deck, but personaly I would consider other cards before this.

[Bahamuth]

I don't understand why you board out Fow and Tide against MUC instead of Cryptic Command. I think it barely does anything in this matchup. It doesn't really matter though. Same story against Landstill.

It seems that you would've had a much bigger chance in the 3th game of te Dreadstill matchup if you had Krosan Grip instead of Wipe Away I'd say.

Dredge isn't that much of a bad matchup, it's just completely random. I've won some matches 2-0 easily, while at other occasions, like yours, it gets what it needs and kills you without a chance.


I don't really have many other comments. Let me point out though that the Hydroblastsin your sideboard were useless all day long. In my build, they're out for more Twincasts.

[Van Phanel]

I love the remands. I loved them since its inclusion in the deck and I'm not considering cutting them yet (in my meta thresh isn't very popular).
I think the discusion is between cryptic command and spell snare. I use the later because is very good aganist my meta: goyf, confidant, counterbalance,hymn to tourach, counterspell,chalice at one, devastating dreams, piledriver... and the list goes on. Cryptic command only shines against a resolved counterbalance or to timewalk an aggro deck, but personaly I would consider other cards before this.

Cryptic command is better against decks playing Chalice then Spell Snare. By a lot. After all it can deal with Threats as well and there is no need to have it turn 1.




I don't understand why you board out Fow and Tide against MUC instead of Cryptic Command. I think it barely does anything in this matchup. It doesn't really matter though. Same story against Landstill.

Both High Tide and Force of Will produce carddisadvantage. Especially in multiples. I never want to have more than one of them in hand in any given situation and I can totally win totally without one, that's why I cut them down. I don't really care if my first try for comboing actually gets through I'd rather trade 4 of my cards in hand against three of his Counters (+ possible pitchcards to FoW) and then win by resolving a Meditate next turn. I rarely ever want to pitch anything to FoW (except Reset when comboing in my own turn). Cryptic Command absolutely shines in those slow matchups because it will always either produce cardadvantage if I use Counter + Draw or trade one for one with a counter. Also it is an out to Meddling Mage. Oh, right: regarding Meddling Mage: in nine out of ten cases, Meddling Mage will name High Tide so that's another reason to cut one.



It seems that you would've had a much bigger chance in the 3th game of te Dreadstill matchup if you had Krosan Grip instead of Wipe Away I'd say.

Indeed. If I remember correctly I didn't see a Fetchland in that game though.



Dredge isn't that much of a bad matchup, it's just completely random. I've won some matches 2-0 easily, while at other occasions, like yours, it gets what it needs and kills you without a chance.

An interesting point of view. And probably correct as well. If the meta was really infested with it, we could maybe run Leyline side, but currently I prefer sideboarding 3 each of Echoing Truth and Hope/Pray.


I don't really have many other comments. Let me point out though that the Hydroblastsin your sideboard were useless all day long. In my build, they're out for more Twincasts.

This means totally conceding the Burn-Matchup, but it's bad enough as is. You might be right here. Maybe I'll go down to two and board a Blast/ E-Truth mix against Goblins. A third Twincast against Chant-Protected combo (or even SI) would be cool.

[Eldariel]

Your fundamental turn is the same as Burn's and you run counters and win at instant speed. I fail to see how you totally concede it by not running Hydroblasts. Basically the only issue Hydro solves is Pyrostatic Pillar, and you can either counter that or bounce it.

[Van Phanel]

Well, I have to admit that "totally conceding" was exggerated.

Still the matchup is difficult. You absolutely must go off on turn 4 because on any later turn they can win at instant-speed as well. They'll just play their sorceries and Fanatics on their first turns and keep around 7 to 10 instant speed damage in hand. Then when you could realistically go off during their turn 4, they already have a possible kill available and now they wait for you to do something. They are playing our game of waiting for something done and if you wait any longer, they are just going to try and kill you in response. A Mogg Fanatic makes this situation even worse. Yes, the matchup is winnable but I personally would rather play against most other decks than against Burn.

[deviant]

The burn-mu becomes very die-roll dependant that way.

If you drop the blasts, but don't want to make the burn mu worse there are many other choices as well. Like Disrupt and Divert, which are both quite good against discard too, which can sometimes make you very embarrassed.

Oh, and Diverting Sinkhole/Vindicate is like masturbating in public!
( Now, I really fail to see how that makes any sense, but it just came so spontaneously that I'll just leave it there. )

[Zinch]

I have a doubt...
My sideboard is something like this:

1 Stroke of genius
1 Rebuild
1 Three Wishes
1 Brain Freeze
1 vision skein
1 Wipe Away
2 Ecoing truth
2 Spell snare (two more in the MD)
3 Hydroblast
2 ¿¿??

What else would you put here?? I'm hesitating between divert and disrupt... Which is better?? Are better options??
Let me know what you think...

[Bahamuth]

I have a doubt...
My sideboard is something like this:

1 Stroke of genius
1 Rebuild
1 Three Wishes
1 Brain Freeze
1 vision skein
1 Wipe Away
2 Ecoing truth
2 Spell snare (two more in the MD)
3 Hydroblast
2 ¿¿??

What else would you put here?? I'm hesitating between divert and disrupt... Which is better?? Are better options??
Let me know what you think...

Assuming you're playing Meditate mainboard, the Three Wishes could be OK. Still, there's no Turnabout in your sideboard, and that's not good. Also, Vision Skeins sucks. Don't play it. It's not worth the extra slot. My suggestion would be:
-1 Vision Skeins
+1 Turnabout
+2 Wipe Away

The Wipe Away's are only really good if there are CB's in your meta though. Otherwise, if there's alot of back discard, I'd take Disrupt.

[Zinch]

Thank you Bahamuth, but i've been thinking: what do you guys think on putting a flash of insight in the SB against discard??
I think it could be better than divert and disrupt because is not a dead card if you draw it later (I know disrupt replaces itself, but flash is much better midcombo)
I'm thinking in something like this:

1 meditate (I had 4 in the MB, but I changed this)
1 turnabout
1 stroke of genius
1 brain freeze
1 rebuild
1 flash of insight
2 spell snare
2 wipe away
2 hydroblast
3 ecoing truth

[GreenOne]

Why all those echoing truthes? Is your meta so infested with zombie tokens and ETW?

[Zinch]

yes, there are more Ichorid-ETW decks combined than decks with counterbalance.
I know is too much bounce... but there isn't many goblins decks in my meta, so i'm confortable with only 2 hydroblast. I'm even considering cutting them totaly to put discard-hate so much more common in my meta

[Citrus-God]

Why all those echoing truthes? Is your meta so infested with zombie tokens and ETW?

Echoing Truth is also good against decks like Dragon Stompy and Stax, where you need to bounce threats and/or soft lock components like Chalice and 3Sphere for the EOT win.

[Zinch]

It would be great if there was a single card (a split-card maybe) that would be able to either deal with a counter during the combo or deal with an annoying permanent.

Looking througth the discussion I find this comment and then a question comes to my mind: has anyone tested Venser, Shaper Savant?? (http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/CardDetails.aspx?&id=136209)
It can be a pseudo remand or a bounce spell... What do you think??

[Muradin]

Venser is just not as good as Cryptic Command. The 2/2 body is not relevant, as you won't win with beatdown and therefore he is just inferior to Cryptic Command as this card can bounce and counter while still getting you some card advantage.
Furthermore it can act as fog, which makes it even better.

[Bahamuth]

Echoing Truth is also good against decks like Dragon Stompy and Stax, where you need to bounce threats and/or soft lock components like Chalice and 3Sphere for the EOT win.

That's basically the reason. It's useful against many, many decks. If you're playing 2 Spell Snare mainboard, you can even use 2 to board in against forms of aggro.


Thank you Bahamuth, but i've been thinking: what do you guys think on putting a flash of insight in the SB against discard??
I think it could be better than divert and disrupt because is not a dead card if you draw it later (I know disrupt replaces itself, but flash is much better midcombo)
I'm thinking in something like this:

1 meditate (I had 4 in the MB, but I changed this)
1 turnabout
1 stroke of genius
1 brain freeze
1 rebuild
1 flash of insight
2 spell snare
2 wipe away
2 hydroblast
3 ecoing truth

If discard is a serious factor in your meta, consider putting 2-3 Think Twice in the mainboard. A thirth Flash of Insight is probably a bad idea, since it's potentially dead when found in multiples. Think Twice would do better in that occasion. Also, be sure to board in the 4th Meditate against discard, because topdecking one or cantripping into one can easily win you the game.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know most people don't remember this, but way back when there was a huge debate over whether Force of Will should be in the deck. Believe it or not, that was from the perspective where it wasn't and some people were trying to add it. Most of NoVA was actually against the idea at first, self included, although eventually it went that way. Periodically, however, I still question whether it's earning it's place anymore, whereas I think most people tend to assume that heavy blue deck= 4x FoW as obvious. However, with Repeal and now Crypitc Command, I'm wondering if cantripping control elements that slow the game down might be more relevant to the deck's bad matchups than a card disadvantage counterspell, even if it is free. The biggest advantage to FoW was that it could force through the combo turn 3-4, but if you can stall longer, this isn't quite as relevant. And Cryptic Command is a pretty sexy staller.

[Taurelin]

The following argument might sound a bit outdated. But isn't FoW our only answer to 1st turn Goblin Lackey?

Sure, Goblins is not that regularly played as it used to be. But still it's still a factor in many metagames. And Turnabouting/Cryptic Commanding by turn 4 to buy some time can just be too slow.

[deviant]

Force is also really good against faster combo..

[Funky-kun]

Duh, Force stops CB. Usually when a CB lands the Solidarity player FOW's (if able) and the Thresh player FOW's back. So if the Force is another card, say Cryptic Command or Repeal, and the Solidarity player lets the CB resolve, when trying to bounce the CB, they will Force the bounce, so yeah, free protection really helps get through hate. And usually losing a single card for FOW to buy multiple turns is the right thing to do. But I guess everyone already knows this. :wink:

[cloudstrife7]

Duh, Force stops CB. Usually when a CB lands the Solidarity player FOW's (if able) and the Thresh player FOW's back. So if the Force is another card, say Cryptic Command or Repeal, and the Solidarity player lets the CB resolve, when trying to bounce the CB, they will Force the bounce, so yeah, free protection really helps get through hate. And usually losing a single card for FOW to buy multiple turns is the right thing to do. But I guess everyone already knows this. :wink:

Although I haven't played this deck, your logic makes me uncomfortable. Basically, you are presenting a situation in which the opponent plays Cb with force backup, and comparing the deck's chances based on which card it has. You conclude that Force is best, but even in your example, it doesn't play out that way.

You show that: If you have force, they play CB, you force it, losing two cards (force and the pitch), then they force back, losing two cards(force and pitch). The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards (sensei-top was not part of the example, but 4 if it was) and you are down 2 cards.

You also show that: If you have cryptic, they play CB. You wait a turn, play cryptic, losing one card, they force it, losing two cards. The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards, and you are down one card.

From here I would say that in the situation you provided, Cryptic command is the better card, as in the presented scenario, you are still screwed, but you have one more card than previous.

I'm not trying to argue that force is bad, just that the situation you showed does not back up your conclusion.

edit: maybe that wink face meant you were joking, and I'm a tool

[I'm a TROLL]

Although I haven't played this deck, your logic makes me uncomfortable. Basically, you are presenting a situation in which the opponent plays Cb with force backup, and comparing the deck's chances based on which card it has. You conclude that Force is best, but even in your example, it doesn't play out that way.

You show that: If you have force, they play CB, you force it, losing two cards (force and the pitch), then they force back, losing two cards(force and pitch). The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards (sensei-top was not part of the example, but 4 if it was) and you are down 2 cards.

You also show that: If you have cryptic, they play CB. You wait a turn, play cryptic, losing one card, they force it, losing two cards. The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards, and you are down one card.

From here I would say that in the situation you provided, Cryptic command is the better card, as in the presented scenario, you are still screwed, but you have one more card than previous.

I'm not trying to argue that force is bad, just that the situation you showed does not back up your conclusion.

edit: maybe that wink face meant you were joking, and I'm a tool


Actually, you make some great points. I am going to try not playing Force of Will and replace them with Cryptic Commands to help this match-up.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Although I haven't played this deck, your logic makes me uncomfortable. Basically, you are presenting a situation in which the opponent plays Cb with force backup, and comparing the deck's chances based on which card it has. You conclude that Force is best, but even in your example, it doesn't play out that way.

You show that: If you have force, they play CB, you force it, losing two cards (force and the pitch), then they force back, losing two cards(force and pitch). The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards (sensei-top was not part of the example, but 4 if it was) and you are down 2 cards.

You also show that: If you have cryptic, they play CB. You wait a turn, play cryptic, losing one card, they force it, losing two cards. The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards, and you are down one card.

From here I would say that in the situation you provided, Cryptic command is the better card, as in the presented scenario, you are still screwed, but you have one more card than previous.

I'm not trying to argue that force is bad, just that the situation you showed does not back up your conclusion.

edit: maybe that wink face meant you were joking, and I'm a tool

I think he's just falling into the irrational "You can't cut Force" camp.

Don't forget that in the bounce example, you can always wait and draw another bounce spell to get out of it. Another Force is useless at this point. Ditto to Chalice of the Void. I think it's fair to say that these two cards represent the biggest threats to this deck's aims.

[i-never-smile]

Suppose that Force of Will is cut from this deck. Then what cards should be added to fill those 4 open slots? Force is a Swiss army knife that can answer faster combo decks, can counter lacky to stop the bleeding preemptitively, and can answer an early Dark Confidant to keep the opponent off of rediculous card advantage. Then, later on, it helps break through counter walls and can be remanded back to be recast. What other card (or cards) could replace Force of Will in order to improve Solidarity, if FoW is cut?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Uhhhh.

You might want to backtrack, champ.

Primarily we're talking about some combination of Cryptic Command/Repeal.

[Funky-kun]

Although I haven't played this deck, your logic makes me uncomfortable. Basically, you are presenting a situation in which the opponent plays Cb with force backup, and comparing the deck's chances based on which card it has. You conclude that Force is best, but even in your example, it doesn't play out that way.

You show that: If you have force, they play CB, you force it, losing two cards (force and the pitch), then they force back, losing two cards(force and pitch). The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards (sensei-top was not part of the example, but 4 if it was) and you are down 2 cards.

You also show that: If you have cryptic, they play CB. You wait a turn, play cryptic, losing one card, they force it, losing two cards. The end result is that CB sticks, they are down 3 cards, and you are down one card.

From here I would say that in the situation you provided, Cryptic command is the better card, as in the presented scenario, you are still screwed, but you have one more card than previous.

I'm not trying to argue that force is bad, just that the situation you showed does not back up your conclusion.

edit: maybe that wink face meant you were joking, and I'm a tool

No, I am not joking. You might actually be right, because winning through a CB without Top is possible, but in most cases blind reveals (and Brainstorm/Ponder trickery) might just win them enough time to beat you with ugly guys. And if they get their lock done, their hand size is pretty much irrelevant, because they have a higher chance of killing you without your cantripping abilities to find Wish/Command. However this argument is dependent on my experience with the FOW build, so with enough Commands/Repeals to find reliably without cantrips it might be easier to accomplish this, so testing is the best way to tell the correct answer.

Actually, I don't own Forces, so I'm playing with different cards in their slot. I was playing with Arcane Denials (a hard counter for nasty stuff with a build-in trick for CA that works great against discard). If the main concern is CB, Repeal seems a bit better than Command to me, because of the fact that Command is vulnerable to Daze unless you get to 5 lands, and that does not always happen very easy. Repeal is also very good against agroish decks and other random stuff like Trinisphere, Meddling Mage, Pyrostatic Pillar and so on. Of course Command has awesome flexibility, but at a higher mana cost.

The thing that justifies FOW in the deck for me the most is that this card beats Random. It is the No1 card you want to see against combo, and can counter very relevant stuff (most of the things I mentioned earlier worth Repealing, plus Chalice @1 and nasty sorceries as Hymn). Trying to improve one matchup while making most of the others worse does not seem like a right plan to me. :rolleyes:

[i-never-smile]

Uhhhh.

You might want to backtrack, champ.

Primarily we're talking about some combination of Cryptic Command/Repeal.

I don't like to respond to individual posts, but I think my implied intent was a bit cloudy. Perhaps I should be more clear. My point was that Force of Will is a versatile solution to several problems, from faster combo (Belcher etc) to problematic permanents (Bob, Counterbalance) to enemy countermagic/other protection spells (like Chant) mid-combo. While Cryptic Command and Repeal are both really good against permanents and are cantrips in their own right, there's something to be said for buying 2-3 extra turns for one FoW and the card you pitched to it, and there's also something to be said for being able to answer threats on turn 1 on the draw or to protect your combo in the middle of it. I don't see Repeal or Cryptic Command stretching that far.

So my question stands: What card (or combination of cards) can provide answers from turn 1 on, and protect the combo as well as Force of Will (or better)? I like Cryptic Command more than it's healthy for a man to like a piece of cardboard, and I have been testing it in Solidarity, but I seriously doubt it's going to patch a hole where Force is. I'm still open to the idea of taking out the Forces, if a better option is presented.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

That argument doesn't make sense. If I were advocating arming our military with guns, and you were advocating using machetes, you might say, "Show me where you can use a gun to cut down a tree, or skin a deer." But it would still be a foolish general who arms his troops with machetes over guns. Repeal does not have to be better than Force of Will at being Force of Will to be better in the deck; it only has to be better at making Solidarity win.

Example given, going off; Repeal and Cryptic Command buy you more time to get more mana and sculpt your hand better. With that time, and given that Solidarity is by it's nature instant speed, why can't you simply continue going off through an Orim's Chant, if you don't have to worry about the pressure from early beats? Moreover, you won't have to go off in response to Counterbalance or Chalice, because you can rely on drawing your bounce spells. This isn't to say that Repeal and Cryptic Command are necessarily better than Force of Will, but their not being Force of Will is not a logical argument for why they aren't better.

[Deep6er]

Jack, you DO know that Repeal CANNOT bounce a Chalice, right?

You also know that using Cryptic Command for just about any purpose is not efficient, right?

Force of Will's effectiveness can be decided upon by looking at what matchups it helps.

TES
Threshold (your contrived situation of you Forcing Counterbalance and them Forcing back is not true 100% of the time. On occasion Force stops Counterbalance).
Goblins
Dragon Stompy (or other Chalice Aggro decks)

Repeal is a different matter entirely. It stops Vial in Goblins, and has a pretty good shot at hitting a resolved Counterbalance, but it doesn't stop Chalice. Additionally, it's inefficient in mana use.

Plus, without Force of Will, you weaken the blue based control matchup. Additionally, you've nary spoken a word about Remand. That card's inclusion would be a good measure of the direction you think Solidarity should go in.

On another note, fuck yourself. I hate talking to you about Magic Theory/Strategy, but nobody else is bringing up these questions. ESPECIALLY where Solidarity is concerned. Goddammit.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Jack, you DO know that Repeal CANNOT bounce a Chalice, right?

I guess I do now, asshole. Also, see Counterbalance/Trinisphere.


You also know that using Cryptic Command for just about any purpose is not efficient, right?

Cantripping fog seems pretty good in a lot of situations, actually.


Force of Will's effectiveness can be decided upon by looking at what matchups it helps.

No it can't. It's a card that reads "counter target spell". By definition it's going to help against any deck that plays spells. It's effectiveness can be determined by measuring where another card might help more and the deck's needs.


(your contrived situation of you Forcing Counterbalance and them Forcing back is not true 100% of the time. On occasion Force stops Counterbalance).

It's not my contrived scenario. Also, ringing endorsement much?


Repeal is a different matter entirely. It stops Vial in Goblins, and has a pretty good shot at hitting a resolved Counterbalance, but it doesn't stop Chalice. Additionally, it's inefficient in mana use.

Define this. The biggest disadvantage I see against Goblins is that it doesn't hit Driver. Also, is Goblins the main deck to argue against anymore? Also, Cryptic Command seems quite good here.


Plus, without Force of Will, you weaken the blue based control matchup.

Doesn't that strictly depend upon what you replace it with and how good that card is against blue-based control?

Yes, it does. I'm answering my own question.


Additionally, you've nary spoken a word about Remand. That card's inclusion would be a good measure of the direction you think Solidarity should go in.

What does Remand have to do with it?


On another note, fuck yourself. I hate talking to you about Magic Theory/Strategy, but nobody else is bringing up these questions. ESPECIALLY where Solidarity is concerned. Goddammit.

What's that "Former" doing next to Solidarity in the thread title? Oh, that's right. Solidarity's not DTB anymore. Not like it used to be. When it was good. Remember that? Huh? Dave? Remember?


In seriousness, when a deck's not working, it's time to consider another tact. Cryptic Command and Repeal might be worse than Force and whatever other slots you could cut maindeck, but it might not be, and the status quo isn't working.

Also, best friends forever!

[Deep6er]

1) I DID say that Repeal could deal with a Counterbalance (in all likelihood) and that extends to Trinisphere. But I'm much more worried about Chalice than I am Trinisphere. At least I can still play spells like Opt/Brainstorm through a Trinisphere. Not so much a Chalice.

2) Cantripping Fog seems really fucking terrible when it costs four mana.

3) Isn't Force the worst possible place to start looking when trying out new cards? Isn't Force one of the very few things that works to prevent bad matchups (like TES) from spiraling completely out of control?

4) Yes it's an endorsement. I think Force of Will is a necessity for Solidarity. I've tried out some builds that didn't have it (in an effort to test how fast and consistent it can go off) and found them lacking. Force is the glue that (sometimes) gets you to the point in the game when you can win.

5) Repeal costs more mana to bounce a permanent than it took to cast that permanent. Additionally, it won't stop a Lackey on the draw, and if you're trying to play around Daze, it won't pick up a Counterbalance until turn four. Three if they're not playing Daze. But then again, if they're not playing Daze, there's a possibility of them playing cards at the three slot anyway.

Cryptic Command seems awful in this matchup. If they're going to beat you, they're going to set up a scenario that opens on Lackey and goes into Siege Gang (rarely with the addition of Piledriver). Spending four fucking mana isn't really something you can afford to do in order to Fog. ESPECIALLY because it doesn't do shit in the first three turns. The four mana that it takes to Fog them is mana that you did NOT spend looking for High Tide (or whatever the missing piece is).

6) No, it doesn't. Force of Will is really strong against blue-based control decks. Cryptic Command isn't because of it's prohibitively high mana cost.

7) I'm trying to figure out what the fuck you're trying to do with Solidarity. The inclusion of Remand would be a key indicator. If you wanted Remand to stay in the deck, likelihood is high that you'd be pushing for a slower version that would bounce threatening permanents and go off in the following turn.

Whereas a build without Remand would probably focus on being more aggressively focused. Trying to consistently combo the earliest it can so that it doesn't need the tempo/protection that Remand gives.

Granted those are rather large generalities, but it lets other people analyze what direction you're trying to take the deck.

8) I don't think Solidarity will EVER be as good as it used to be. Counterbalance is a card that destroys the primary strategy of the deck and requires answering. The sheer fact that Solidarity players are FORCED, first and foremost, to answer that card puts a strain on this deck that I don't think it can handle.

I accept that. Until there emerges a time where Counterbalance is contained, I don't think I would choose to take Solidarity with me to a tournament. If the tact is completely obviated by one card, it might be time to look into other decks.

EDIT: Also, fuck yourself. I hate you.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm going to come back to this tomorrow, but I want to point out that you had a conversation with Jack Elgin about Magic.

Also, too late. Still best friends forever.

[deviant]

Now that you're here Gearhart: have YOU tested the "Grip-splash" and found it ineffective? You apparently still think CB is insurmountable, so I'm just curious.

Oh, and Jack, I really have to ask: how much experience you have with Soli in the first place? (sorry if this comes out really dick-ish but I just would like to know :) ) Have you actually tested the Threshold mu, TES, and let's say Dragon Stompy without FoW? I'm asking this because it really seems like we can totally forget about winning TES, or any other faster combo deck for that matter, I'm personally very suspicious about cutting FoW improving our Threshold-mu, and I think we'd really miss them against Dragon Stompy.

To me it just seems like you should have something "concrete" to back up these suggestions 'cause, maybe I'm closed-minded here or something, cutting FoW seems like a really bad idea.

That being said, I'd be really happy to hear about anything that improves the Thresh-mu. If you say that your test results indicate that cutting Reset Improves that mu, I would still be happy, so don't get me wrong - I'm not trying to "protect" anything. I just really wouldn't feel comfortable going to a gun-fight only to find out I left my pistols at home, and took the bananas instead.

[Deep6er]

Yes, I've tested Krosan Grip. I found it fucking awful. If you don't have it in your opening hand then you can't answer an early Counterbalance. However, it's a fucking awful card the rest of the time. Drawing two is almost like a mulligan.

Out of testing many different cards, I have not yet found anything even remotely effective. Nothing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I meant with Remand. I think maindeck bounce is an absolute necessity, at this point. If not Repeal, then Cryptic Command and/or Rescind. But I think the deck should rather focus on stalling a bit longer to go off, as it's not going to win going for the throat until such a time as Frantic Search gets unbanned.

@Deviant: The weekend that Dave got his face smashed in playing Solidarity for the very first time in the old 1.5 Tournament, back when the deck ran neither Brainstorm nor Cunning Wish nor Fetchlands nor Force of Will, I put the deck together on MWS. I play it pretty often, although I rarely enter into a tournament with it. It's a fun deck to relax with for me when I'm not building or testing a new monstrosity, and it's the only deck I've seriously considered entering tournaments with that I didn't build. I'm a big fan because it's a prison-control deck masquerading as a combo deck.

So I have some experience with the deck, is what I'm saying. I also know that the deck can exist without Force of Will. I'm not saying it should necessarily, but I think it can be advantageous.

Also, fuck TES. Seriously. Is that deck played by more than three people on the East Coast and I'm just missing something?

@ Dave: Blue based control isn't relevant and you know it. Shut the fuck up. The relevant threat here is decks like Thresh/Counterslivers. And I think bounce is stronger against them, particularly if the deck's running Twincast and Remand.

You could cut something else and just go utter MUC with a combo finish, but I'm not sure how effective that would be. And I'm leaning towards not very. Could be wrong though.

[Deep6er]

Bullshit. Landstill is definitely still strong, and decks like It's the Fear could definitely become major contenders. My testing with It's the Fear has definitely shown that it's a strong deck, and my tournament finishes with it agree.

Also Bullshit about TES. That deck has had strong showings and I think is a viable consideration for metagame testing.

Also, fuck yourself. I went 4-3. That is not "face smashed in". Plus, I top 8'd every Frog tournament leading up to the Big Arse before that. That's even counting the awful Blue/Green version. So you can fuck yourself asshole.

[Bahamuth]

Bullshit. Landstill is definitely still strong, and decks like It's the Fear could definitely become major contenders. My testing with It's the Fear has definitely shown that it's a strong deck, and my tournament finishes with it agree.

Also Bullshit about TES. That deck has had strong showings and I think is a viable consideration for metagame testing.

Also, fuck yourself. I went 4-3. That is not "face smashed in". Plus, I top 8'd every Frog tournament leading up to the Big Arse before that. That's even counting the awful Blue/Green version. So you can fuck yourself asshole.

You guys sure like each other.....

I agree with TES being a pretty big factor. It should definitely be considered when deciding wether to play FoW or not (I think it should really be in).

Luckily ITF isn't a concern in my meta. I won't have to worry about that deck.

We can still cantrip in response and before a CB hits. With 6 way's of finding Grip, why do you think we can't find it against early CB's Dave?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Bullshit. Landstill is definitely still strong, and decks like It's the Fear could definitely become major contenders. My testing with It's the Fear has definitely shown that it's a strong deck, and my tournament finishes with it agree.

Calm down, friend David. I meant blue-based control isn't relevant as a reason to run Force in Solidarity because you already steamroll it.


Also Bullshit about TES. That deck has had strong showings and I think is a viable consideration for metagame testing.

Where is it prevalent? If it is relevant it might be an argument for Force, but it also might be an argument for Disrupt or Force Spike.


Also, fuck yourself. I went 4-3. That is not "face smashed in". Plus, I top 8'd every Frog tournament leading up to the Big Arse before that. That's even counting the awful Blue/Green version. So you can fuck yourself asshole.

I love you.

[chokin]

I love you.

I lawled IRL. Just sayin.

Moving along, what's the best answer to Counterbalance? Countering it before it hits(is Spell Snare viable for that?) or bouncing it with Wipe/Repeal/Rushing River or what?

[Zinch]

Hey Van Phanel, i've just seen this: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?event=The+Source+Online+Tournament+2008

First, congratulations for your 3rd place, and I wonder i've you can illuminate us with one of your reports... how well did the cryptic commands?? Did you test the spell snare version??

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Report here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10861).

[Blaukreuz]

you should better check this out:

http://www.planetmtg.de/articles/artikel.html?id=4288

The Legacy Sideevent at the German Nationals today.

145 Players and Simon "Van Phanel" Ritzka the best after swiss with Solidarity.

Top8 Decklists in the article above.

[Bahamuth]

Wow, congrats on that finish! You're sure putting upsome great results, man.

[Van Phanel]

Thanks.

A report from the German legacy champs is going to come sometime this week. By now only this:

Cryptic Command is teh nutz. When you read the report, you'll see why.


@Discussion about FoW:

FoW is a great utility card as it stops you from losing early on. It shines against any kind of combo, can stop broken starts like first turn Lackey or Hypnotic Specter, helps deal with Counterbalance and a lot of other things.

The key here is flexibility. For any card FoW stops, there sure is a better solution but there is no other solution to them all. Add the ability to play right through opposing counters (without paying mana or being vulnerable to Spell Snare - take this, Twincast) and you've got exactly what you need. That Force sucks in multiples doesn't really apply either because you can always pitch one to the other and in today's meta I feel way more comfortable with a FoW in my opening hand.

[Zinch]

C'mon with the report... I can't wait...:wink:

Is someone tersting the 2 spell snare in the MD. I'm still not convinced with the cryptic commands... Against counterbalance, ok it is good, but against the rest of the field I think is underwhelming... What do you think??

[Gocho]

Do you read "Tournament Announcements and Reports" forum? :P
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10963

After read Van Phanel's Report: Cryptic Command is great vs every deck ;)

[Zinch]

Sorry... I missed that threat... I was only checking here...

On the other hand, congratulations for the finish van phanel. You alone will make this deck a deck to beat...:tongue:

And yes... now i'm more convinnced in the cryptic commands... I'll test them more

[Trancerogue]

@ Van Phanel, I was thinking about your list and I do like it better than some other options I have been playing with (i.e. Spell snare, twincast main). The Cryptic Commands do go a long way to helping the deck in alot of mathups. I thought about this and have experienced fizzling to some degree beacuse I drew like 3 untap effects, and 5 lands. My only changes has been to move to 4 Maindeck Meditates and replace the wished Meditate for a Three Wishes. I have found it to help when you combine lots of Draw 4's, lets be honest Meditate is the deck, and the wished one was only for setup and Three Wishes does that when you need to combo out. My changes are to your list as follows:
was 3 Opt and 1 Peek to 3opt and +1 Mediate and + 1 Three wishes in the Board. My other idea was the fact that Im gay for Opt when comboing after using a brainstorm or brainfreeze on myself to clear some of the lands on top of my deck. I was thinking about dropping 1 Remand, going down to just 2 remand maindeck, and running the 4th Opt. Does this sound right to you? Does the deck really need the 3rd Remand? The counter package would be
4 FoW 2 Remand and 2 Cryptic Command (Utility card really). What are your feelings on Remand?

[Willoe]

Trancerogue: Three Wishes in the board sounds decent, have you tested your list? Does that extra mainboarded Meditate help?

Other than that, regarding some raw draw power:

Keep Watch. Has that ever been tried? If it can draw thee cards, then it's that worth it by dedicating a sideboard spot. I know, aggro might not be the matchup where we got our problems, but it might help against some matchups.

[Zinch]

The problems with keep watch are two:
1. Is a very situtational card. Is better to simply have a three wishes that is ALWAYS useful.

2. Against aggro decks you want to combo in the beggining of the attack phase so if you don't find a wish to make them draw a card, you can tap their creatures and take no damage.

[Van Phanel]

Keep Watch is so bad. Usually you are going to be attacked by a single Goyf nowadays.

Three Wishes side is the best alternative if you want that fourth Meditate main.

I wouldn't go down to 2 Remand main unless there is a whole lot of Threshold in your meta. Still consider running more Remand side as it shines against any deck that doesn't play Daze, Lackey, Tendrils or Empty the Warrens, especially against decks with Chalice.

[Zinch]

Even against Fetchland Tendrils, remand is golden 'cause it doesn't combo in the first turns anymore (it's sacrificing explosiveness for consistency with ponder, SDT and brainstorm MD) and as Van Phanel has said, it is MVP against chalice, trinispheres and the like as you gain a turn to set the combo, so I agree with him: don't cut it.

[Bahamuth]

Even against Fetchland Tendrils, remand is golden 'cause it doesn't combo in the first turns anymore (it's sacrificing explosiveness for consistency with ponder, SDT and brainstorm MD) and as Van Phanel has said, it is MVP against chalice, trinispheres and the like as you gain a turn to set the combo, so I agree with him: don't cut it.

I agree that Remand shouldn't be cut any further as the deck is now, but I disagree that Remand is very good against FT. FT won't ever try to go off without a Chant against Solidarity, and Remand doesn't really do a good job on preventing a Chant from hitting. Therefore, Remand is only good if backed up with at least one FoW. Remand is a bit better against TES, but it's still not that good.

[Zinch]

Unless he only have a white source, then you just buy a turn if they fear a force of will even if you don't have any...

[GreenOne]

Force+Brainfreeze is quite good against FT, at least against the lists focusing on Doomsday for the kill.

[MULocke]

Why would remand ever get cut? It just lowers the threshold for storm count to the point where you can go off a lot faster, and that definitely matters in a matchup where you're faced with orim's chants and must respond by winning or die. It's way too necessary to the combo, plus it helps win counterwars by remanding your own spells.

On a different note, I played solidarity tonight in a local tourney, going 3-1. I really like the deck, but there are always a few black sui-esque decks running around. I got completely stomped by b/w homebrew in my loss. Is there a strategy (sb or otherwise) that works well, or do I just accept my bad matchup and move on?

[Bahamuth]

Why would remand ever get cut? It just lowers the threshold for storm count to the point where you can go off a lot faster, and that definitely matters in a matchup where you're faced with orim's chants and must respond by winning or die. It's way too necessary to the combo, plus it helps win counterwars by remanding your own spells.

On a different note, I played solidarity tonight in a local tourney, going 3-1. I really like the deck, but there are always a few black sui-esque decks running around. I got completely stomped by b/w homebrew in my loss. Is there a strategy (sb or otherwise) that works well, or do I just accept my bad matchup and move on?

Sometimes decks like that get broken starts, in which case you're probably not going to be able to fight them. If they don't, however, you can usually gain some serious cardadvantage by casting a Meditate pre-combo. The plan is to board in the 4th as well.

[Gocho]

Divert and Disrupt helps too.

[Zinch]

And spell snare if you want a more versatile SB choice

[Brehn]

I don't get why anybody would use "Spell Snare" and "versatile" in the same sentence.

[Zinch]

Spell snare is a hard counter against more things than the 2 other options exposed: hymn to tourach, gerrard veredict, dark confidant, sinkhole, counterbalance, tarmogoyf, goblin piledriver (I know, you won't sideboard spell snare against goblins, only pointing), painter, survival of the fittest, meddling mage, runed halo, gaddock teg, true believer, chalice at one, counterspell, standstill...
I think this is versatility. I know that is not comparable to cryptic command in this matter, but at 1/4 of its cost, what do you want??

[Gocho]

Spell snare is a hard counter against more things than the 2 other options exposed: hymn to tourach, gerrard veredict, dark confidant, sinkhole, counterbalance, tarmogoyf, goblin piledriver (I know, you won't sideboard spell snare against goblins, only pointing), painter, survival of the fittest, meddling mage, runed halo, gaddock teg, true believer, chalice at one, counterspell, standstill...
I think this is versatility. I know that is not comparable to cryptic command in this matter, but at 1/4 of its cost, what do you want??

Against Black Discard Divert and Disrupt are better options.

Disrupt is cantrip.
Divert a Duress or Hymn to Tourach is pure card advantage.

The election depends on your metagame.

I Know that Spell Snare can counter more options but vs Black Discard (1cc: Thougtness, Duress - 2cc Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole) are not enough.

[Benie Bederios]

Against Black Discard Divert and Disrupt are better options.

Disrupt is cantrip.
Divert a Duress or Hymn to Tourach is pure card advantage.

The election depends on your metagame.

I Know that Spell Snare can counter more options but vs Black Discard (1cc: Thougtness, Duress - 2cc Hymn to Tourach, Sinkhole) are not enough.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that doesn't work, because Duress says opponent. Thoughtseize can be diverted though.

BB

[Zinch]

Yes, you're right, duress cannot be diverted.
In another note, I've been testing lately the UGB Thresh MU and what I fear is not counterbalance (in fact, the deck that don't use it is the worst) but dark confidant... God, I hate that deck...

[Gocho]

Correct me if I'm wrong but that doesn't work, because Duress says opponent. Thoughtseize can be diverted though.

BB

I was thinking in Cabal Therapy. Yes, you can't use Divert in Duress except in multiplayer games (two or more opponents).
Sorry

[Bahamuth]

Yes, you're right, duress cannot be diverted.
In another note, I've been testing lately the UGB Thresh MU and what I fear is not counterbalance (in fact, the deck that don't use it is the worst) but dark confidant... God, I hate that deck...

Yup, it's easily the worst matchup we have. Confidant is a huge problem, and once it's in play, you kind of have to try to win early, because your opponent will completely overwhelm you if you don't.

[MULocke]

Yeah, it seems counterintuitive, but spell snare is actually one of the most versatile counterspells around. It seems that very many bad things come at 2 mana, like goyf, standstill, confidant, and counterbalance. Fortunately, there were zero counterbalances so I did play a sb of 4 disrupt and 2 divert. I mainly got slaughtered because I was on the draw game 1, and my brainstorm got taken before it could hide anything. Game 2, I mulligained and was met by a first-turn hyppie. I'll do some more testing and see how it goes.

[Zinch]

Game 2, I mulligained and was met by a first-turn hyppie. I'll do some more testing and see how it goes.

You always can disrupt a first turn ritual on the play... otherwise, is almost gg for him/her...

Have you done the playtest?? Are worth the slots in the SB??

[MULocke]

You always can disrupt a first turn ritual on the play... otherwise, is almost gg for him/her...

Have you done the playtest?? Are worth the slots in the SB??

I haven't gotten much time yet, but from what I saw when I drew them on Monday, they were worth it. I used them in the TES matchup to fight chants (among other things), and they worked well. I would say that if you know your meta well and have the free slots, go for it. I'll try to do more this weekend.

[Zinch]

Searching for cards for the sideboard, i find Envelop... Has anyone tryed it?? It seems to have potential: Against black discard, Belcher or even Ichorid...

In other terms... I know it was discussed long ago, but he format has changed since, so: what do you think about intuition?? Maybe with a third flash of insight as a tutor or a CA engine??

[MULocke]

Searching for cards for the sideboard, i find Envelop... Has anyone tryed it?? It seems to have potential: Against black discard, Belcher or even Ichorid...

In other terms... I know it was discussed long ago, but he format has changed since, so: what do you think about intuition?? Maybe with a third flash of insight as a tutor or a CA engine??

Cunning wish does the same thing, but better (read: doesn't thin nonland cards). You don't need 3-ofs minimum for wish, and you really don't need this many expensive cantrips. The cantrips need to be coming down earlier. Also, multiple flash of insights are no better than one, so that does nothing.

As for envelop, it seems way too narrow. It it cantripped, sure. Just pitch a card to force of draw one with disrupt.

[Bahamuth]

Why are you guys even considering these cards? Ask yourself how they will give us better matchups first. Intuition was obviously tested and dismissed. No need to bring it up again. Envelop is worse than Spell Snare.

[herbig]

Intuition was obviously tested and dismissed. No need to bring it up again.

Reevaluating cards isn't a bad thing, but it does get annoying when the same cards get suggested over and over again as a novel idea. The thread here is pretty long but still...

[Trancerogue]

New cards to consider, 1 Three Wishes Vs the 4th Meditate in the Sideboard.
Adding the 4th Meditate to the maindeck and placing 1 Three wishes in the side. Meditate is our Draw 4 and very helpful in the maindeck and I have never been upset or pissed of if I drew it. Three wishes cost the same draws 3 cards and can help smooth the deck out from fizzling when comboing off. It also playing around Counterbalance, being that, it cost 3 mana like Meditate. (I know it is situtational being that, at the end of your turn you have to bury those three cards. ((Yes I used buried because im still old school!!!!!)) It does have the abilty to act as a Thirst For Knowledge by cycling through 'dead cards'). Has anyone else tested this besides me? Im sure someone has because I got the idea from here a while back. Heres the list and sideboard I have been using. When I get back to San Diego in 2 weeks I will play this deck at Game Empire for thier weekly Legecy Tourny. Let me know what you all think about it....

// Lands
12 [10E] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Spells
2 [JU] Flash of Insight
2 [SC] Brain Freeze
3 [US] Turnabout
4 [TE] Meditate
3 [IN] Opt
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
3 [RAV] Remand
4 [VI] Impulse
4 [LG] Reset
4 [FE] High Tide (1)
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LOR] Cryptic Command

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SC] Brain Freeze
SB: 1 [US] Turnabout
SB: 2 [SOK] Twincast
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [US] Stroke of Genius
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [VI] Three Wishes
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

TfK is still almost certainly better than Three Wishes, since you can shape your hand with it before going off. You almost always have lands or Flash to discard anyway.

But Meditate's a better Wish target; at least it's an opportunity while going off. I'd run the TfK(s) main if you want extra mass draw.

Plus, savage synergy with Sensei's Divining Top in case you don't draw the Counterbalance[/lulz]

[Trancerogue]

"But Meditate's a better Wish target; at least it's an opportunity while going off. I'd run the TfK(s) main if you want extra mass draw."

@TheInfamousBearAssassin
I think your a little mislead by my idea. The 4th meditate comes into to the maindeck and replaces 1 Opt. Three Wishes replaces the Meditate in the Sideboard. Three Wishes would not hinder you while going off, you would only use it when going off. In my testing that Meditate was only used then and rarely in setting up the combo. You gain the advantage of adding another draw 4 card main and a combo enabler Draw 3 in the side. Cunning Wish for Meditate does seem wasteful and I just want to see what others think about the idea.

TfKs are bad in this deck you know that already, you've read this forum alot im sure. Three Wishes is just replacing the Meditate in the sideboard and allowing you to run the full 4 Meditates, which IMO are very good in this type of combo deck. Test it out and let me know what you all think, then reply with results.

[Deep6er]

OK, well I'm back from gold fishing Ad Nauseam.

Verdict: Unknown.

For reference, here's the list I was testing:

4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 Twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Brain Freeze
4 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Tundra

The basic idea was that Orim's Chant was a better protection spell because it played better with Ad Nauseam.

Also, the Rituals are there to help offset the cost of Ad Nauseam in order to make it a better set up spell. Plus, they help to defray the cost on things like Meditate and Cunning Wish.

Mystical Tutor will help find Ad Nauseam/Twincast/Orim's Chant.

More or less what happened was that I was trying to force a turn 3 combo in most games where I could plausibly do something. There was some success here, but generally required a ritual plus Reset into Ad Nauseam to really scream, "BUSTED" to me.

The build is very interesting in that turn four kills are almost as high as ninety percent (with proper use of mulligans). Ad Nauseam is actually pretty ludicrously insane even with the high amount of three cost cards in the deck. Just about every time I cast the card, I won the game. I would draw upwards of nine (occasionally more) cards which set up everything amazing well.

I was working with the supposition that I had a sideboard of plausible cards. Using the following as a baseline I had: Turnabout, Ad Nauseam, and Stroke of Genius as the only cards I would wish for. I found that with those three, I had just about every base covered.

The Twincasts are awesome at continuing the combo and would theoretically help the match up against Storm Combo and Control (by either copying their defensive Chants for Storm Combo, or answering counters against Control).

While this build is fascinating, I don't actually feel that it does anything to help the Threshold match up. Which kind of tosses that idea right out the window.

I only tested about thirty games, which isn't extremely conclusive (as evidenced by my verdict above), but I felt that it was necessary to convey what I thought about the card as it stands.

EDIT: After more testing, I have determined that it does, in fact, increase the turn three kill. By a reasonable margin at that. Whereas before, I would peg it at around thirty per cent, I would put this build at closer to forty-five. While a remarkable addition, I found that Ad Nauseam is actually pretty ridiculous. I only killed myself once. Out of all thirty plus games.

Humorous anecdotes include drawing seventeen cards on one Ad Nauseam, and winning on two lands through the use of a hand that had: Twincast, two Resets, a High Tide, two Dark Rituals, and an Ad Nauseam. Yeah, that was pretty ludicrous.

[Zinch]

Are you sure that a turn 3 kill without protection is better than a turn 4 kill with FoW and Remand??
Ad NAuseam can be a good card for this deck, but I believe that this dramatic change isn't needed

[Bahamuth]

OK, well I'm back from gold fishing Ad Nauseam.

Verdict: Unknown.

For reference, here's the list I was testing:

4 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 Twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Brain Freeze
4 Meditate
2 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Island
2 Tundra



Wow, that deck is awesome! My first thought was that this wouldn't help the Thresh matchup either, but I'm not even so anymore. There's a definite speed increase, and the Tutors will certainly help to increase the chances of finding answers to CB. The list still maintains the Solidarity feeling, where you aren't required to have certain cards to win (Like Doomsday, TES of FT), but it seems to act much more like a combo deck than a combo-control deck, because you really want to cast AdN as early as possible.

I have some questions though:

1) Where's Remand? Why would you cut it?
2) Why only one Brain Freeze? In combination with Remand and the Rituals, we can even get some wins without drawing any cards.
3) Is 4 Cabal Ritual really good? In other words: do you manage to get to threshold fast enough to warrant it?

EDIT: By the way, Van Phanel is working on translating his brand new primer into English, and, probably after it passed the Soli boards, he will hopefully post it here too (I hope we can put it at the first post in this thread, because the info here is just amazing).

[Van Phanel]

This list looks interesting even if it's very different from the Solidarity of the last years.

Why would this be better than a sorcery speed deck with Ad Nauseam though (Reset aside)? You can't really wait for your opponent to do something because every point of damage you take will reduce the number of cards that you can draw with Ad Nauseam. While we're at this: How did you goldfish the deck? Did you just count down from 20 while ignoring your possible opponent or did you do something else?

I can see Pact of Negation being useful with this list. Maybe as a two-of main and the other two side.

Also, Daze seems like an incredible pain in the ass.

And a final thought: Why is Ad Nauseam better than Skeletal Scrying in this deck? Yes. it can draw more cards. Not if you are on low life though. An advantage of AN would be that you can always decide to stop before you get too close to be dead while with Scrying you have to decide before you know what you'll draw.

That said Ad Nauseam could improve Solidarity, but the problem with Counterbalance remains.

- Van

PS: About the primer: I'll have it finished some time this week (don't know exactly when), then Deep6er will read through it and then I will post it. It won't say anything outright new though, it will just summarize known info.

[deadlock]

Besides the most important that Van already mentioned is see several other problems with the concept.

-Manabase is weak as fuck, weaker even than from decks like FT, because you cant run a basic swamp.
-18 lands and no second cantrip makes one-land-hands risky to keep.
-Misses cards that have a great interaction with AN (Lions Eye Diamond foremost).

That being said i also think AN could have an positive effect Solidarity: If a strong AN Tendrils deck emerge than a Solidarity version with 4 Twincast between maindeck/sideboard could be become viable in order to beat this deck.
Or a small black splash is made for 1 Ad Nauseam in the SB..

[Deep6er]

@Zinch: The faster Solidarity CAN kill, the better. Increasing the possible turn three kills makes match ups like Ichorid and Storm Combo exponentially better because they don't rely on you having Force in your opening hand. Plus, this deck plays Orim's Chant. That's definitely protection and serves as proactive (or reactive if they play one of their own) disruption against other Storm Combo decks.

@Bahamuth: I cut Remand because this was built on the supposition that Ad Nauseam Storm Combo decks would be on the rise with the printing of Ad Nauseam. Remand would ONLY be good against them on the play, and Twincast is actually better with that supposition in mind.

I won't lie, I hate drawing Brain Freeze. Especially since Flash isn't in the deck, the fact that there's so many bad draws makes me hesitant to play more.

With eight fetches, Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, and High Tide, it's pretty simple getting to Threshold. It's pretty common to have large amounts of black mana floating which help to offset the cost of cards like Meditate. Granted, their primary purpose is to cast Ad Nauseam, but they still have uses elsewhere (especially in conjunction with Stroke of Genius).

@Van Phanel: If it is better in this deck, then the reason would be it's much stronger control match up. I was testing viability here, not strength. The idea was that certain strategies that were strong before Ad Nauseam would be obviated by Ad Nauseam Storm Combo decks. Decks that rely on discard would be weakened because of the ludicrous power of Ad Nauseam. Thus, the idea was that the format would devolve into; Threshold, Control decks that beat Threshold, Storm Combo.

You're right about Daze, I see nothing here that really helps the Threshold match. That's why I'm taking it in a different direction. I just wanted people to know what I was working on and how it was doing.

Skeletal Scrying is not as good. Ad Nauseam is (on turn three) guaranteed to draw more cards than Scrying. It's not out of the question to draw upwards of nine cards because of the low curve. Plus, lands are free. I think Ad Nauseam is definitely better than Skeletal Scyring, and I really don't think there are that many decks out there that can do enough damage on turns one and two that warrant playing something like Scrying over Ad Nauseam.

I gold fished it by assuming that there was no opponent. The only damage I would take is from fetches. The Chants were dead draws, so I would always Brainstorm them away. It's not terribly accurate, but it was mainly just because I was going for speed. I've done the same thing to gauge earlier Solidarity builds that were based on speed. It's similar to how certain matches play out because few people expect Solidarity to combo out on turn three. Thus, they're a little more lax with their play for the first couple turns.

@Deadlock: Lions Eye Diamond actually doesn't help Ad Nauseam. At all. With Ad Nauseam in a TES type build, you're likely to draw into Lotus Petals and Spirit Guides. You're going to draw into starting mana. With this deck, you just need to keep two blue floating in order to hit Reset.

Yeah, the mana base is bad, but remember what I was testing this for. This was supposed to be under the assumption that Ad Nauseam changes the format. In that format, Wasteland would be awful because it doesn't do shit to Storm Combo that's going off on turn one or two. Thus, it doesn't make a difference how bad your mana base is. It makes a difference whether or not you can stop Ad Nauseam.

The eighteen lands with only Brainstorm IS a problem. You're right about that. I tested the Mystical Tutors as Opts, and found that Mystical Tutor is pretty important in this build. It's the only way to guarantee finding a High Tide.

There is a problem. The only way Twincasting an Ad Nauseam would be good is if you were playing Force. Because you're likely going to tap out to play Twincast. Sure, the six life isn't a big deal (to keep you from losing the game), but it digs into your ability to abuse Ad Nauseam, and it makes it much more dangerous to use Ad Nauseam (because of the seven five casting cost cards in the deck).

I'll be testing other incarnations of the idea presented here, and I'll keep you up to date on the ones that seem interesting. As it stands now, I really don't like the deck that I posted. It's fragile, and depends on a rather specific start to get going. Sure it's faster, but I don't know how much better that makes it. Especially since it can't play Force.

[deadlock]

I dont know if this is a good example, but i liked this goldfish:

1st turn land, BS, dropping two LED's.

2nd turn upkeep casting Mystical for AN breaking the LED's in response - casting AN with LED mana. :cool:

Adding SDT into the mix gives you additional ways to draw into AN or setup a Doomsday.

[Deep6er]

Or you could have just gotten Infernal Tutor and won anyway.

Lion's Eye Diamond doesn't help to cast Ad Nauseam except in corner cases. It's pretty hard to use with Burning Wish (what with not being a sorcery), and it doesn't really help Infernal Tutor (getting Ad Nauseam using LED means you just could have won anyways).

[Illissius]

That list has only four untap effects (not counting Wish->Turnabout, which is seven mana), while it has eight Rituals. Is such a small High Tide 'engine' still worth running?

[Pelikanudo]

Well ,It's a fact Ad Nauseam is insane, and I'll post my version of Solidarity with A.N.
4 Pact of negation
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island

for reference the side will be:
1 meditate
1 stroke
1 mistical tutor
4 Spellsnare
4 FoWs
1 Wipe away
1 Rebuild
1 TurnAbout
1 B Freeze

The build is quite similar to Deepers build but , honestly 3 mana is quite difficult to support so I decided to go for the Pact's way instead Orims

the side is quite logic so decided to bring cards we usually play in solidarity like FoWs and Snares , I haven't yet seen a deck that plays blue and DOES NOT play FoWs, did you?
My test aboutr M.Tutor is that it can't search for a land which is disgusting,

I decided to take out 1 M.Tutor for a C.Wish . wich can target one tutor

Respect to twincast... I'm testing its natural replacing : remand but I recognize that most of the times you'll copy for rituals or Tides or rests.. which is fundamental

Cards I really miss :
1- Opt ( paying 18 lands we DO need cards like this... I REALLY miss you boy )
2- Impulse
2- FoWs ( at least we have it on side)

[Gocho]

You can use Mystical to search Rituals.

[Bahamuth]

Well ,It's a fact Ad Nauseam is insane, and I'll post my version of Solidarity with A.N.
4 Pact of negation
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
4 Reset
4 twincast
4 Cabal Ritual
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
6 Island

for reference the side will be:
1 meditate
1 stroke
1 mistical tutor
4 Spellsnare
4 FoWs
1 Wipe away
1 Rebuild
1 TurnAbout
1 B Freeze

The build is quite similar to Deepers build but , honestly 3 mana is quite difficult to support so I decided to go for the Pact's way instead Orims

the side is quite logic so decided to bring cards we usually play in solidarity like FoWs and Snares , I haven't yet seen a deck that plays blue and DOES NOT play FoWs, did you?
My test aboutr M.Tutor is that it can't search for a land which is disgusting,

I decided to take out 1 M.Tutor for a C.Wish . wich can target one tutor

Respect to twincast... I'm testing its natural replacing : remand but I recognize that most of the times you'll copy for rituals or Tides or rests.. which is fundamental

Cards I really miss :
1- Opt ( paying 18 lands we DO need cards like this... I REALLY miss you boy )
2- Impulse
2- FoWs ( at least we have it on side)

I like this list more. PoN is obviously much stronger here than in decks with LED, and especially with Meditate. Do, however, realise, that playing this card almost requires us to play a Meditate once we combo, or we'll probably lose on our own turn.

Another problem is that this list loses big time to CounterBalance.

[Tacosnape]

I disagree with Ad Nauseum in this deck. I'd rather have my Force power and stay instant.

However, I've been doing a lot of investigation into permanent maindecking of Chants (With 3 Tundras, enough to pay kicker and survive one random Wasteland/Vindicate), and I think the time has come to do this for several reasons.

1. Chant hurts every deck that plays Ad Nauseum. It also hurts most rare combo decks that don't, barring 2-card combo decks and Ichorid.

2. Chant protects you from any kind of countermagic or disruption during your combo, allowing you to reduce the number of Remands in the deck and allow you to Force more aggressively.

3. Chant makes Force of Will stop Counterbalance. They drop Counterbalance, you Chant, then Force. It's three cards to stop one, yes, but Solidarity is far more equipped to handle this card disadvantage than it is to try and deal with a resolved Counterbalance.

The list I've been playing around with is as follows:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
7 Island

4 Brainstorm
4 Opt
4 Impulse
4 High Tide
4 Reset
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
3 Remand
3 Turnabout
2 Brain Freeze
4 Orim's Chant
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 Twincast
2 Hydroblast
2 Wipe Away
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Tempest of Light

I'm still tinkering with ways to not make the deck fizzle less as a result of the maindeck Chants, though.

[Deep6er]

Three for one'ing yourself is a guaranteed way to lose to Threshold. You know why? Because you can't really afford to Meditate because of how stupid Tarmogoyf is. Even if you stop a Counterbalance, you're down to about three or four cards in your hand, and since the only card advantage in your deck is Meditate, you're bound to lose. All they need is a single counter to stop you at that point.

Plus, when you consider the fact that you have even more dead draws because of Chant/Force/Lands, you're bound to fail.

I'm against that list even more than I am against the one I posted. While I don't like the list I posted, I realized that Ad Nauseam is actually stunningly strong enough to support a faster win, which is important if Ad Nauseam decks are as strong as they seem to be.

Remand is a lot worse now too. You're not going to be able to do anything reliable with it, because the Storm Combo decks will be going off (or at the very least doing something) guaranteed before you have two mana open. Plus, with only three, you're unlikely to see it in your opener.

@Pelikanudo: Pact doesn't do anything to stop Counterbalance. This is true. However, since my list also loses to Counterbalance (and since I've been trying to find the fastest, most consistent turn three kill version with Ad Nauseam), I don't mind. What I do mind is the three Cunning Wishes. My list originally had three, and I found that they were really bad. You can't really afford to play three. Honestly. They cost too much, and it's an uncomfortable gamble with Ad Nauseam with cards like Cunning Wish because you're going to have mana issues. Plus, it doesn't really help set up the turn three win, which is what we should be looking for.

I think it's important to find the list that wins consistently on turn three in order to determine the viability of adding additional disruption to that list. I personally don't like Pact, but then again, I wasn't happy with Chant either.

I'll keep on tinkering, but one this is for certain, Ad Nauseam is actually really good. Dangerously good. I think it would be a disservice to not play the card.

@Illissius: The Rituals are also fantastic at supporting colorless mana requirements. Additionally, the Mystical Tutors help find Resets and Twincasts double Resets (which is basically one of the two uses, the other being copying Meditate, but that's less necessary because of how insane Ad Nauseam is). So, it's rarely (but still happens occasionally) a huge deal. Sometimes it bites me in the ass though. I still think that's it's a necessary sacrifice.

[Zinch]

I agree Ad Nauseam is a great card, but if you play them, aren't you conceding to burn and almost to goyf slight??
Also there is the issue about wasteland that is a timewalk against you...

In other note... why now mystical tutor is a good option and not before??
I heven't tested them in solidarity because everyone agree they weren't good enough and the winning decks didn't play them, but now you are all including them... Why??

[deadlock]

In my opinion the instant speed interferes with the idea to play AN as a setup spell at the end of your opponent's turn, because you have to discard down to 7. So you have to play AN and keep UU open for Reset like you said.
Which brings me to a sorcery speed version: It loses flexibility and the powerful untap in form of Reset, but gains other good spells and a better finisher.

EDIT:
Screwed decklist killed

[Van Phanel]

This card is named Ad Nauseam

@ Zinch: Read other posts, not just the lists:

At the current state of the format Deep6er is not going to run that Ad Nauseam list because it sucks (more or less). As of now, this list is a hypothetical that could only see play if (and that is not certain) the existence of Ad Nauseam changes the whole format into combo, control and Threshold. If that happens, this new version of Solidarity might actually be pretty good. On the other hand it won't be able to fix the problem with Threshold.

I still don't see why any of the Ad Nauseam lists that people are testing should be better than Belcher though and Belcher didn't wreck the format either (no arguments about this please, I know the reasons for Ad Nauseam and as long as they haven't wrecked the format, I refuse to believe they will).

[Deep6er]

The difference between Ad Nauseam Storm and Belcher would be the fact that Ad Nauseam would kill on that turn.

Whereas Belcher was likely to Empty for ten or so, Ad Nauseam will kill you with Tendrils. That's a far cry from getting two turns to deal with tokens.

The differences are basically in kill structure. Since Ad Nauseam is going to kill the turn it casts Ad Nauseam, it's definitely a different approach to Storm Combo than Belcher. Belcher just wants to do something on turn one. Ad Nauseam wants to fucking kill you on turn one. See?

[Poron]

What about the green splash?

Determined instead of Orim's Chant (this wrecks Counterbalance too) and Krosan Grip to own it worse