[Brainstorming] Dealing with Tarmogoyf

[thefreakaccident]

So, this thread will be discussing what it takes to compete in this current environment with tarmogoyf in every deck packing green (for the most part)..

He seems to mostly be prominent in gro and NQG, as well as various aggro-control decks fluttering around the meta.

I guess the real question is:

Is lightning bolt an option any more?

STP has the same affect against goblins (about), neither of them affect combo in the least, and swords brings down goyf.

I have found that goblins has a difficult time dealing with goyf sometimes, as well as him consistantly kiling my UR control deck (which used to thrive in my meta, before he was printed and everyone started using him).

What are some cards, omitting swords that deals with him affectively, without being narrow all the way around?

currently the list is:

wrath
humility
pernicious deed
engineered explosives
swords to plowshares
edict (to an extent)
Jotan grunt (a beater that takes him down to size too!)
smother (kinda narrow, but still good in the current meta)

that's about it as far as I can think of off the top f my head.

What do you guys think about him?

Will some archtypes be unplayable due the printing of this card?

[Nihil Credo]

Tarmogoyf is a powerful card, but it is *simply* an undercosted beater - a 4/5 or so for 2 mana, yes, but without evasion and still very "solvable" (cue rumbling of Green mages complaining that their colour is underpowered, apparently unaware that 2001 was a long time ago).

Any black removal destroys it (I do it regularly with Ghastly Demise), and any white as well (in addition to StP, Condemn is a *very* underrated card in this format). So those colours are OK.

Blue has simply never been used to kill creatures much, outside of the occasional REB. So it's safe to say that Blue has no more problems with Goyf than it had with, say, Werebear.

Green likewise lacks good removal. As for beating Goyf on the board, we can split Green in two major parts: Aggro green and Midrange green. Aggro green should simply be running Tarmogoyf itself: there's little reason not to, it's that good and requires very little "building around". Midrange green has fatter monsters, although they may come down a turn or two later; moreover, Midrange in such a fast format will necessarily feature powerful disruptive cards (Stax artifacts or cheap discard), which are pretty good against the kind of decks that usually run Tarmogoyf.

Red gets the short end of the stick. However, the limit of Red removal is usually 3, not 4 (Fireblast is rarely used as removal, and Char isn't playable); therefore, Red really does not have any problems with Goyf than it already didn't with Werebear - they both usually require two removal spells. And Incinerator has the potential to take them both down most of the time.
Accordingly, the only deck I know that is really scared of Tarmogoyf is Red Death, because its plan against Threshold used to involve preventing Werebear from becoming a 4/4 (if it did, shit had just hit the fan), either with pure speed or sideboarded Tormod's Crypts: that plan is now no longer viable, and you have to really hope to resolve Dystopia.

Colourless is covered: you've got the ever-more-amazing Engineered Explosives and its lesser monocolour-friendly Powder Keg, both of which take down Goyf just fine, although they are vulnerable to Needle and Stifle.

Gold... well, it depends on *what* gold, but in general, if it has access to removal it has a way to kill Goyf.

So no, in my opinion 'Goyf will not be a format-breaker. It makes Threshold a bit better, but not significantly so. In most situations, Goyf will average out to a Werebear with a +1/+1 counter, minus the mana ability, and with a near-immunity to Tormod's Crypt. That's good, not OMG BAHROKEN!!!11

At least not in Legacy. In Block, though? Holy crap.

[Jak]

Yeah I agree with Nihil. It is not like it will break the format or anything. It is just a bit bigger than Werebear. I can see how it is great being a 4/5 because then FtK doesn't kill it, doesn't trade with Grunt, or arrogant wurm. It is a really strong card, but so many things make it die, so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Mordenkain]

I don't think any real archetype isn't viable becuase of goyf. Thats an overstatement imo. But what I think is that Goyf is a healthy addition to the format. As stated lots of times before Red is one of the best color's in the format, having ascess to efficient beats and good removal. A lightning bolt is a allaround answer, able to answer most creature based threats, besides pro red ones and giant beaters like Exalted Angel, which also gives you reach in the combo matchup, making them never dead. But with new agro/control decks packing threats like Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf, Lightning Bolt and co. is becoming less and less of an effective answer.

I don't know what impact have on the format as a whole, but I think he will for sure will have an impact. U/g/X agro/control decks will have more and more efficient beats, and using red and/or white as support color, you will have removal as well. It's just a matter of time before agro/control's beats truely becomes good enough to match the goblin rush. Agro/control's true disadvantage is inability to deal with EtW really, imo. But I think those agro/control decks we see that use mass removal combined with counters/discard and creatures that dodge their own mass removal. What comes to mind is Earthquake + flying beats, but Goyf also fits in here, as his sheer amount of toughness easily take the hit from Earthquake. Also, Earthquake > EtW.

Just a few quick thoughts about Goyf really. And yes, im making a Goyf based Agro/Control deck. :P

[Finn]

Good call, Nihil. I mean, your reasoning is sound and informed, but I happen to think that Goyf is more than that. He changes the fundamental strategy Goblins needs to beat Threshold. Where Gobs used to hope to resolve a Crypt and pop it at the most opportune time, now that card is crapola since many Threshold decks really only have Mongeese as Theshold creatures. So it's NQT as much as it is NQG. His seamless inclusion as a 1 for 1 replacement for Werebear is a feather in that deck's hat. And you can forget Threshold ever needing Mental Note any more (though I still see it for some reason). This just makes the deck better still.

I have a couple of pretty bad decks running him, and he is still stupendous. You don't need anything close to 7 cards in the pit to get him to dangerous levels. And the opponent is dumb if he blocks the fellow thinking it can be killed. A decent deck can manage to get a card in the graveyard as a fast effect to grow him just one more in a pinch. And btw, don't discount the difference between a 5/6 pounding you and a 4/4 on turn 4. Grunts don't trade anymore, and he even kills Exalted Angels. Naw, he is a big difference. MD, or whatever he calls himself on this site, has convinced himself that Dryad is good again due to its printing. I'm not harping on the lad (and perhaps he is right), it's just that this card puts everything out of whack. When you are winning on its back, the deck just seems better than it is - cuz this is the most powerful, easily abused aggressive creature in the game.

[MattH]

The best answer to Goyf is Threads of Disloyalty.

[emidln]

I rather like Ensnaring Bridge. Then again, I kill people with Barbarian Rings...

[Samshire]

Tarmogoyf is going to wreck Legacy, the only thing that had a fair chance against Tarmogoyf was the Hulk-Flash combo, and even then it was in Tarmogoyfs favor. There isn't anything that can be done about Tarmogoyf, he is just too big and there is no way to destroy him. He's like steroids on crack, he's so insanely over-powered.

Legacy might as well be dead now, Tarmogoyf has ruined this format.

[Pale Moon FTW]

'Goyf is just creature, you should already be using creature removal anyways. Just splash white in your control decks for removal instead of red. I've always been a fan of StP so I like new cards that can make people realize it's the best removal spell in legacy.

EDIT: Samshire I really, really hope you're joking.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Tarmogoyf's greatest strength does not lie in his casting cost to power/toughness ratio, although that's definitely important: it lies in his resiliency. One-sided graveyard hate doesn't daunt him in the slightest (hence why Grunt is, in fact, the best thing against him). Removal that uses numbers (i.e. that affects toughness through either damage or minus signs) is also largely useless--not just because he's often out of range, but because, often, playing the spell just winds up giving him the extra toughness he needs to survive it. Nevertheless, he's susceptible to pretty much any and all removal or control-effects (read: gain control) not limited by numbers. So, stuff like StP, Pongify, Death Stroke, Damnation, and Deathmark all work very well.

Accordingly, while he's obviously not going to topple the format, he's a major, major addition with far-reaching influence.

[emidln]

Tarmogoyf is going to wreck Legacy, the only thing that had a fair chance against Tarmogoyf was the Hulk-Flash combo, and even then it was in Tarmogoyfs favor. There isn't anything that can be done about Tarmogoyf, he is just too big and there is no way to destroy him. He's like steroids on crack, he's so insanely over-powered.

Legacy might as well be dead now, Tarmogoyf has ruined this format.

Tarmogoyf isn't even going to affect the format. There, I said it. He's chump-blockable unto eternity and forces Threshold to run another land to keep the same manabase resiliency. Even in Zoo, he still doesn't have trample, flying, or anything else to make sure that Fanatic doesn't chump him and ping you while Goblins moves up the curve, let alone the 12 goblins that combo makes these days. He's good, but nothing more. Every competitive deck in legacy could deal with Goyf before it was even printed, and very few will change to accomodate him. Cut it with the sky is falling crap.

[DrJones]

@emidln: I think he was being sarcastic.

[thefreakaccident]

By no means am I giving the 'sky is falling' speach, I am just wondering what you guys thought of it... truthfully, the card is getting retarded over here.

Everybody in my meta is running it, I perferred red as removal (never dead);
but I cannot use this as a reliable answer to creatures anymore seeing as goyf and goose have become very, very common as of late.

Will Tarmogoyf's new popularity cause a rise in Grunt population?

I will expect decks packing Goyf to be in a lot more T8s than decks packing ETW anyways (there is 1 good deck using ETW and not many people play it).

[Hanni]

What's all this then?

Tarmogoyf doesn't effect the format all like that. It still eats the same answers to the original fatty problems... Diabolic Edict, StP, Wrath of God, Pernicious Deed, etc etc so on and so forth. It is aggro. It can easily be dealt with. It doesn't break the format. Crying that Tarmogoyf is going to warp the format is retarded.

However, Tarmogoyf is broken. As aggro, it's just rediculous p/t for cost. 1G for a 3/4 is broken on it's own... this is bigger than Watchwolf. The average p/t for 2cc is 2/2, with 3/3 being considering big p/t. Tarmogoyf becomes 4/5 easily for 1G... a 4/5 should cost at least 4cc. I've gotten Goyf to 5/6 multiple times... 6/7 is rediculous. 1G for 6/7? WTF? This is extremely broken as far as creatures go. If you can run Tarmogoyf, you probably should.

Just because it's broken as a beater, doesn't mean it's going to warp the format though. It has no evasion and no resiliency against removal. It makes many strategies much stronger now (like Threshold) and fits in alot of decks. It does not change the format any differently than the format already was, though.

[Di]

Technically this thread should be locked because this idea of Tarmogoyf warping the format is absolutely absurd. Threads like these should be devoted to cards that actually do warp the format, such as Goblin Lackey and Empty the Warrens. Tarmogoyf warps the format no more than freaking Island warps the format. Every deck, every single deck (with the exception of combo) runs a way to deal with Goblin Lackey. About 95% of those answers deal with Tarmogoyf as well. And the thing is, Tarmogoyf isn't near Goblin Lackey in terms of power. Lackey can spell game over on turn 1, whereas Tarmogoyf requires certain conditions to be game-ending, and is weakened by graveyard removal.

But that aside, Tarmogoyf is an incredibly powerful creature. He speeds Threshold up by nearly tenfold. Previously, Threshold would typically have to wait until they got thresh in order to play Werebear and begin pounding- all around turn 4+. Nimble Mongoose obviously can get played earlier, but he's a 1/1 up until that point. Now comes Tarmogoyf, who can easily be a 4/5 on turn 2 and really put the pressure on the opponent. That's insane. He also makes green-based a lot more viable.

[raharu]

in short, StP, Spurnmage Advocate, terror, smother, gempalm incinerator, threads of disloyalty (the only control spell outside of abduction{which sucks} that is viable), force of will (any counter), ghastly demise, 2 bolts (max toughness is 6 right?), early on, two of most red removal should work, condemn, humble/humility, ovinize + any burn (i would look to it for the UR control mentioned earlier), so on and so forth. tarmogoyf is easily dealt with, just like any other big creature without shroud (dumbest name ever).

note: that's all of the top of my head, not stating all the other black answers, and gold has some decent removal too (vindicate, Kaervek's Purge = omg crazy, Merieke Ri Berit is vounerable, but works and has a good effect, mortify, putrefy, terminate are all good answers)

[Iranon]

Also, we can endlessly block it with something like Mother of Runes or assorted Boas.

The problem isn't a lack of answers, the problem is that you will usually need 2-3 of them thanks to the free countermagic in the decks using it to the greatest effect.

p.s.: Merieke Rules! She used to be my signature card back in the day... Quirion Ranger madness for the win!*

[rockSTAR]

Tarmogoyf is going to wreck Legacy, the only thing that had a fair chance against Tarmogoyf was the Hulk-Flash combo, and even then it was in Tarmogoyfs favor. There isn't anything that can be done about Tarmogoyf, he is just too big and there is no way to destroy him. He's like steroids on crack, he's so insanely over-powered.

Legacy might as well be dead now, Tarmogoyf has ruined this format.

I love irony :D

Ontopic: Goyf is just an undercosted critter....many ways to kill him plus goyf vs goyf is like a wall fight.

Calm down dudes.

[zulander]

I personally think he's the best creature to be printed since wild mongrel, but I don't think he's broken nor do I believe he's busted. He's undercosted, but so are a lot of cards and legacy has delt with them, and it'll deal with him too.

[tivadar]

Well, in a format with buttloads of creature removal, of course he's not broken. The issue with him isn't that he's an overpowered critter. There are plenty of those. Iwamori is overpowered as well. The issue with Goyf is that he's overpowered at ANY point in the game. If you draw him early and play him turn 2, he starts off as 2/3 for 2, moderately overpowered. Late in the game, he's a 4/5 for 2, still big for a fattie.

I like Goyf though, I think green needed its staple and it just got it. Green has always been a creature color, and it got the perfect creature. Goyf is essentially green's brainstorm. Now if they just stop stealing white abilities and putting them everywhere else... Thanks, wizards, thanks for Damnation, Pongify, Naturalize, and Krosan Grip. What does white do well now? Gain 3 life?

[Phya]

Fools. The way to deal with Tarmogoyf: Meekstone.

[AngryTroll]

Smother is actually pretty solid. I was brainstorming Goyf answers the other day and came upon Smother.

Common creatures Smother kills:
Goyf
Werebear
Rofellos
Angel Stompy, including morphed Angels, except Angel and the artifact creature. etc etc, include sidenote about Mom...
All the Goblins except Ringleader and Seige Gang
Slivers, minus Crystaline help

Creatures it doesn't kill:
Mystic Enforcer
Exalted Angel
Nimble Mongoose
Slivers when Crystaline is around
RGBSA when it ramps up
Exalted Angel

[Volt]

Common creatures Smother kills:
Goyf
Werebear
Rofellos
Angel Stompy, including morphed Angels, except Angel and the artifact creature. etc etc, include sidenote about Mom...
All the Goblins except Ringleader and Seige Gang
Slivers, minus Crystaline help

Dark Confidant
Meddling Mage
Jotun Grunt
Serra Avenger
Quirion Dryad
Phyrexian Negator
Nantuko Husk
Arcbound Ravager
Disciple of the Vault

[Sanguine Voyeur]

If there are no other creatures, Smallpox would work while potently making your own Tarmogoyf stronger.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Last Breath. Considering how big the Goyf can get the 4 life might be less than StP at times.

[Tacosnape]

Any reason nobody talks about running Terror anymore?

I mean, outside of Red Death, Sui Black, and...5/3, it has things to hit against almost every deck.

It'll nail Tarmogoyfs, Sea Drakes, Warchiefs, Jotun Grunts, etc. You name it.

[tivadar]

Any reason nobody talks about running Terror anymore?

I mean, outside of Red Death, Sui Black, and...5/3, it has things to hit against almost every deck.

It'll nail Tarmogoyfs, Sea Drakes, Warchiefs, Jotun Grunts, etc. You name it.

I'll go out on a limb here and say "because it costs 2 mana". Ghastly demise seems almost strictly better in most decks. Black tends to be reasonably good at filling up their graveyard (assuming it's not mono-colored).

[Samshire]

Well, in a format with buttloads of creature removal, of course he's not broken. The issue with him isn't that he's an overpowered critter. There are plenty of those. Iwamori is overpowered as well. The issue with Goyf is that he's overpowered at ANY point in the game. If you draw him early and play him turn 2, he starts off as 2/3 for 2, moderately overpowered. Late in the game, he's a 4/5 for 2, still big for a fattie.

I like Goyf though, I think green needed its staple and it just got it. Green has always been a creature color, and it got the perfect creature. Goyf is essentially green's brainstorm. Now if they just stop stealing white abilities and putting them everywhere else... Thanks, wizards, thanks for Damnation, Pongify, Naturalize, and Krosan Grip. What does white do well now? Gain 3 life?

What the hell? No where on freaking Tarmogoyf does it say 'draw 3 cards put 2 back'. How is Tarmogoyf in any way similar to Brainstorm? It doesn't even have the same Converted Mana Cost. Futhermore, the original Lhurgoyf was green, of which Tarmogoyf was a 'throwback' to. Green has the most creatures with the Lhurgoyf creature type, not white. I really don't even see how you think Tarmogoyf was stolen from white. Green has always gotten cheap beaters, Tarmogoyf was just another one.

White doesn't do anything well, to answer your question. It's probably because white knows that you think it's the type of color that should get Pongify abilities. First of all, Pongify sucks. Second, Pongify belongs in Blue. ever heard of Ovinomancer? Essentially, Pongify does the same thing in destroying a creature and replacing it with another creature. Other then bounce, this is the only way blue could kill a creature.

as an on-topic post; Tarmogoyf is good when there are cards in both graveyards. If you play planar-void then Tarmogoyf gets small quick.

[zulander]

I think he was saying that every green deck will play goyf just like every blue deck will play brainstorm.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

What the hell? No where on freaking Tarmogoyf does it say 'draw 3 cards put 2 back'. How is Tarmogoyf in any way similar to Brainstorm?

I think he's saying that just as Brainstorm is an assumed auto-include in almost every blue deck, so with Tarmogoyf to green.


It doesn't even have the same Converted Mana Cost. Futhermore, the original Lhurgoyf was green, of which Tarmogoyf was a 'throwback' to. Green has the most creatures with the Lhurgoyf creature type, not white. I really don't even see how you think Tarmogoyf was stolen from white.

I think he was lameninting white's suckiness, not inferring that Tarmogoyf should be white.


Green has always gotten cheap beaters, Tarmogoyf was just another one.

In the sense that Brainstorm is "just" another cantrip.


White doesn't do anything well, to answer your question. It's probably because white knows that you think it's the type of color that should get Pongify abilities. First of all, Pongify sucks. Second, Pongify belongs in Blue. ever heard of Ovinomancer? Essentially, Pongify does the same thing in destroying a creature and replacing it with another creature. Other then bounce, this is the only way blue could kill a creature.

Ovinomancer costs 3 mana, bounces 3 lands, has to tap and goes back to your hand. I've made a good effort to try to include him in any viable deck, and it's never going to happen.

He was referring to white having its most efficient spells stolen by other colors.


as an on-topic post; Tarmogoyf is good when there are cards in both graveyards. If you play planar-void then Tarmogoyf gets small quick.

Is "on-topic post" sailor jargon for "inane nonsense you hope will justify your misplaced counter-tirade"?

[tivadar]

Thanks zulander, nods, I in no way meant to say that what Goyf did was similar to what Brainstorm did, just that Goyf is essentially a staple of any green deck that is looking to kill with creatures now. He's a good card, always, just as Brainstorm is.

As for the "What does white do well?", Yea for rhetorics :-P. I'm well aware that white essentially does nothing well. Just saying there was a time when STP WAS the way to go, period. That time is no longer now. Black now has an effective 1 mana answer, as does blue (though, you are right, the blue one is rather sucky), red has direct damage, which works well sometimes.

By the way, you can't compare Ovinomancer to Pongify. A color is defined by what it does cost-effectively. Green has creature removal in the form of Desert Twister. Would I ever play it? Heck no! Ovinomancer was 3 mana to cast and had summoning sickness. Pongify is much better. It also COULD be good in blue combo decks looking to get rid of mages/other annoying creatures... But alas, the days of Solidarity are gone.

Anyways, a bit offtrack. To summarize, Goyf, in my opinion, is now a green staple. White is now clearly the worst color out there (Grip, Loam, and Goyf have essentially changed this dynamic). There are plenty of ways to deal with Goyf, the issue is that none of them are really cost-effective. Even STP is still giving your opponent 3-4 life or so when they paid just 2 mana for the creature. Mass removal is also somewhat slow against Goyf, and Goyf allows you not to overcommit creatures to the board, like most weenie strategies.

[Samshire]

Is "on-topic post" sailor jargon for "inane nonsense you hope will justify your misplaced counter-tirade"?

...yes :frown:

[xsockmonkeyx]

Any reason nobody talks about running Terror anymore?

Because nobody plays it thats why. You cant run a card nobody plays. :rolleyes:

Seriously, its friggin Terror. Its still good at what it does.

[Pale Moon FTW]

Talking about underplayed black removal; what about Vendetta? Sure it's a nerfed version of StP, but it's still pretty great of a black spot removal spell.

[Di]

Talking about underplayed black removal; what about Vendetta? Sure it's a nerfed version of StP, but it's still pretty great of a black spot removal spell.

Vendetta isn't overly good at dealing with Tarmogoyf unless you wish hitting yourself with a Lava Axe in the process.

@ Terror

Probably one of the most underrated removal spells in this format. It's ridiculously good. The reason it's not played though is the 2cc issue which fails to stop Goblin Lackey on the draw. Sadly is makes stuff like Darkblast and the like superior.

[tivadar]

Apparently my post missed earlier. I'll go out on a limb and say that "Terror isn't played because it costs 2 mana". Honestly though, darkblast is bad unless you're planning on taking advantage of the dredge. Ghastly demise, on the other hand, now that's some good stuff. Most decks run enough fetches to support it killing a 1/1 on turn 1 as well, which is what you really want to hit. In the late game it basically kills everything, and has moderately a larger range than does terror (it gets the artifact creatures).

[greenmage]

My favorite way to deal with ordinary early fatties like tarmogoyf is to play a wall of roots and chump block until eternity. :laugh:
I don't think he'll be warping legacy. Sure, U/X control will have some problems, just like gobos. But really, is weakening goblins a bad thing? And many other decks simply won't care.

[Nihil Credo]

Ghastly Demise is insane, although in Black Threshold I've cut it down to 3 to accomodate some more Edicts - too many Nantuko Shades running around these days.

The most underrated removal spell in the format, IMO, is Condemn, which is goddamn good for a spell that sees almost zero play. Unfortunately for it, not many decks need more spot removal in addition to the 4 StPs, IBA's trademark "4 Stp + 1 Condemn" package being the exception.

[Phantom]

I actually think Tarmogoyf is a perfect example of a really good card that is broken in no way. Every deck that needs an answer to Tarmogoyf already runs an answer. Every deck that was ignoring Werebear can ignore 'goyf about as well.

Compare this to cards like Lackey or EtW, and you will see how I define broken.

[Bane of the Living]

Saying he warps the format is true actually. He's not broken but now he's here in every deck that can find a green mana.

List of creatures he's nurfed..
Morphling
Wild Mongrel
Phyrexian Negator
Troll
Psychatog!
Serra Avenger
Nantuko Shade
Exalted Angel
Werebear
Silver Knight

All of those men are obsolete in my opinion. They all usually die to gofy, or require more upkeep than he to kick your ass. Goyf is one green mana. Not two green. He's super splashey and can take games just by himself.

Again not broken but Tivadar summed it up pretty well by refering to him as Mr. Brainstorm.

[Brushwagg]

Just remove both Graveyards. Or first turn Planar Void. Keeps him a 0/1.

But seriously he's a better Werebear, that's it. So WTF is all the crying about?

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If they printed a 4/4 for G that had no upkeep, would you call that "just another Were-bear?"

The point isn't necessarily that he's overtly broken in the sense that a combo deck is broken, the point is that he invalidates pretty much every other beater in comparison to himself.

By ways of an example, every other beater is the first guy, and Tarmogoyf is the second guy. http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF076AD-Gigaknight.jpg#144

[greenmage]

Again not broken but Tivadar summed it up pretty well by refering to him as Mr. Brainstorm.

Maby he has the same powerlevel as brainstorm. But if brainstorm's power is Ok for the format, then why not goyf? Because it is a creature? Or green? By the way, brainstorm is also invalidating quite a bunch of blue draw spells.

[sammiel]

Eh, Im mostly mad that I don't have a playset of tarmogoyfs, and they have done nothing but skyrocket in price since future sight is such a terrible set. kinda like saviors and pithing needle.

[TheCramp]

I personally think he's the best creature to be printed since wild mongrel...

That is probably true, and as good as Mongral is, it wasn't exactly running rampent owning the meta before Goyf.

here is a narrow, (as in the deck it fits into not the situation) solution. Spinning Darkness, you can clear a point or two off his P/T and then bolt him. This is more of a 2-of in a MBX deck. Withered Wretch can pretty keep him reasonable, and is not narrow at all. He is the only solution, other than grunt, that can effect both yards, and is going to be better for a long game than grunt.

Terminate is cool, and kills more stuff then terror, but not silver knight. But i don't see using it over smother, unless your meta has a lot of X Stompy.

Threads of Disloyalty is an rocking suggestion.

EE is pretty good, as is crime//punishment. Spell Snare.

Thornweild Archers! so sweet, green even.

I like deathmark as a suggestion. Lots of good Green and White critters to kill, but i am unsure which deck this fits in.

If they keep improving greens lot, Perish might be one to watch, or the green only terror that cantrips. I don't remember its name.

[zulander]

Eh, Im mostly mad that I don't have a playset of tarmogoyfs, and they have done nothing but skyrocket in price since future sight is such a terrible set. kinda like saviors and pithing needle.
I actually think that it's a pretty song set. Maybe not so much for 1.5 but overall a lot of the cards see play in 1/1.5 and extended. The set also has a huge impact on standard as well. I'm just glad I got my set for $8. Although freakin happygilmore got a foil set for $12.

[Pinder]

I don't really see what all the fuss is about with Tarmgoyf. Every deck needs to answer creatures, and I don't think Tarmagoyf is any different. Sure, Tarmagoyf is good, I mean, really good, but I don't think that it will warp the format as much as some people are saying it will. So 1G for a 4/5 is the new standard for green? Fine. It's about time green started not sucking.

I personally think that there are plenty of answers already present in decks to deal with Tarmagoyf, and in the event that for some reason he utterly warps the format, what's the worst that happens, really? Morningtide goes from $0.15 to $0.35?

The format is just as healthy with Tarmagoyf in it as it ever was. There are plenty of ways already in decks to deal with it, and in the event that for some reason it gets out of hand, the format will shift, and it will be dealt with. Even if it means that people have to start playing Terror :tongue:.

[raharu]

morningtide = $1.50 a blackborder.com, and i think it's because you said that.

[Pinder]

From MOTL:



Query results for: Magic: the Gathering cards where name matches the regular expression morningtide

Card/Figure Price StdDev Average High Low Change Raw N
---- ----- ------ ------- ------- ------ ------ -----
Morningtide, 0.30, 0.03, 0.30, 0.34, 0.25, 0.01, 6

[Pale Moon FTW]

You know what's not cheap?

Card Addiction 1,000+ California San Gabriel Normal 10 $19.80
(Cheapest site on findmagiccards.com)

I don't care how badass Goyf is, I'm not gonna spend that kind of money on them.

[thefreakaccident]

The main reason that I started this thread was to make everyone aware of a probable problem that our format might be faced with, due to the new card called Tarmogoyf.

In decks packing instants/sorceries (almost everything except goblins and stax), and fetchlands (a staple in every deck), he will come on line as a 4/5 pretty reliably, as well as possibly becomming a 5/6 and a 6/7 (wich I have seen on as early as turn 3).

It invalidates certain hate that threshold and gro used to be crippled by (grave hate in general is now useless in these MUs)..

It also makes swords to plowshares and the like, the only viable creature control cards left in the format...

cards that have been invalidated include:
Bolt
chain of lightning
darkblast (to an extent, when goblins went arigh)
and other burn spells that don't see much play


It also , as Bane had stated, makes a lot of previously good creatures unplayable simply due to the fact that they just get dwarfed by his presence... Oh, your aveger is a 3/3; well my Goyf is a 5/6 (SAME TURN PEOPLE!!!).

I kinow he can be dealt with by a lot of conventional creature control cards seeing play right now (swords, explosives, deed, edict... etc.),
but now those are the only solutions that are reliable... this is no longer red's format.

Swords is now in fact better than lightning bolt (answering a debate started by IBA in the Open forum).

[The Rack]

I agree Goyf is good, but only in aggro control archetypes. It will not be played in aggro because it will usually be a 2/3 for the most part.

But if decks are no longer playable because of goyf then they weren't playable to begin with becasue he is only one more creature. No evasion, no goodies just a critter.

I really don't think it will make white the color to play though. Red can double burn it and goblins doesn't care about it because they have incinerator and kinesis.

My 2 cents.

[Pale Moon FTW]

When you look at it the effect of Tarmogoyf has been that two colors that where generelly believed to be underpowered (green and white) got a serious boost while not wrecking the format. Actually I believe the printing of Goyf is one of the best things Wizards has done for the format in a while.

[DrJones]

I agree Goyf is good, but only in aggro control archetypes. It will not be played in aggro because it will usually be a 2/3 for the most part.

But if decks are no longer playable because of goyf then they weren't playable to begin with becasue he is only one more creature. No evasion, no goodies just a critter.

I really don't think it will make white the color to play though. Red can double burn it and goblins doesn't care about it because they have incinerator and kinesis.

My 2 cents.Wah? In my testing, Tarmogoyf enters play as 3/4 at least. Fetchland + Lotus Petal + brainstorm of the opponent. It's very common.

Also, Tarmogoyf has a wild sinergy with Wild Mongrel. As far as I've seen, the only thing that stops him is another Tarmogoyf. Wasting two burn spells on it doesn't even assure you'll kill him, as any pump effect makes him a 2x1. If you want to try, I suggest to do it on your turn.

[thefreakaccident]

I agree Goyf is good, but only in aggro control archetypes. It will not be played in aggro because it will usually be a 2/3 for the most part.

But if decks are no longer playable because of goyf then they weren't playable to begin with becasue he is only one more creature. No evasion, no goodies just a critter.

I really don't think it will make white the color to play though. Red can double burn it and goblins doesn't care about it because they have incinerator and kinesis.

My 2 cents.

there are some VERY good decks out there that fail to find 'good' solutions to goyf. One being UR landstill aqnd others with burn based creature control such as Red Death.

'good' means not giving your opponent 2/3 for 1s. (Red death and landstill are very playable as well jake)... Neither incinerator or kinesis answers him anyways (especially if you incinerate for just the right amount just to find goyf has pumped into a safe zone)... He is rarely played turn 2 as a 2/3, if he is then he is being used in the wrong deck (I don't think anyone would argue this fact).

Goyf only sees play in aggro-control archtypes, because they are the only decks that can support him.

[The Rack]

Wah? In my testing, Tarmogoyf enters play as 3/4 at least. Fetchland + Lotus Petal + brainstorm of the opponent. It's very common.

Also, Tarmogoyf has a wild sinergy with Wild Mongrel. As far as I've seen, the only thing that stops him is another Tarmogoyf. Wasting two burn spells on it doesn't even assure you'll kill him, as any pump effect makes him a 2x1. If you want to try, I suggest to do it on your turn.

Could you show me a threshold list that runs Lotus Petal?

If tarmogoyf had trample I would see a huge problem but it can be chump blocked with a useless critter.


there are some VERY good decks out there that fail to find 'good' solutions to goyf. One being UR landstill aqnd others with burn based creature control such as Red Death.

'good' means not giving your opponent 2/3 for 1s. (Red death and landstill are very playable as well jake)... Neither incinerator or kinesis answers him anyways (especially if you incinerate for just the right amount just to find goyf has pumped into a safe zone)... He is rarely played turn 2 as a 2/3, if he is then he is being used in the wrong deck (I don't think anyone would argue this fact).

Goyf only sees play in aggro-control archtypes, because they are the only decks that can support him.

UR landstill is not a VERY good deck whereas Red Death can deal with goyf because it has a much faster clock and can chump block it.

If goyf attacks and I blobk with a warchief and kinesis him 90% of the time he will be dead. ANd I was talking about incinerator being used during combat step for optimal usage.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone ( Robert :p) but I'm just saying that Goyf is not a must counter or gg. There are ways to deal with it.

My 2 cents.

[Tacosnape]

(snicker) Vedalken Shackles. Owned.

[DrJones]

Could you show me a threshold list that runs Lotus Petal?

If tarmogoyf had trample I would see a huge problem but it can be chump blocked with a useless critter.If I googled for it, sure. But why? Is threshold the only aggro deck in legacy?
I run Tarmogoyf in the False Cure/Kavu Predator deck that you can find on the first page of this forum, I also run Lotus Petal and Wild Mongrel on it. It works very well on it.
According to the broken archtype system it's an aggro/combo deck. Therefore, it doesn't have to be good only in aggro/control.

I also think that aggro/control decks just put Tarmogoyf in there and don't run it even at half of its full potential, and that it's a lot better in aggro decks with Rancor, Berserk, and mongrel.

[tivadar]

I also think that aggro/control decks just put Tarmogoyf in there and don't run it even at half of its full potential, and that it's a lot better in aggro decks with Rancor, Berserk, and mongrel.

Goyf can be thrown in just aggro decks as well. Outside of goblins, which is mono-red anyways, I don't know of any straight-up aggro decks that aren't running at least 4-8 instants along with fetches. The fact that he's good, by himself, without looking for synergistic cards, and gets even better with them is scary. Honestly, I think he'd be a lot more reasonable if he was a 0+*/0+* rather than a 0+*/1+*, cause then at least graveyard hate would kill him and not just neuter him for a time. But either way, he's not, and he's a powerhouse.

I was speaking to a goblins player, and gempalm generally doesn't work on him in the threshold matchup. He just grows quicker than their goblin count does.

[Barook]

Honestly, I think he'd be a lot more reasonable if he was a 0+*/0+* rather than a 0+*/1+*, cause then at least graveyard hate would kill him and not just neuter him for a time.

Unless it's permanent-base graveyard hate that stays in play (like Withered Wretch), you're just plain wrong. Stuff like Morningtide would still make him a 1/1 because state-based effects are only checked after the spell resolved - and at that point, Morningtide is a card in the graveyard, making Goyf a 1/1. That's one of the reasons why most graveyard-hate is so ineffective against him.

[tivadar]

Unless it's permanent-base graveyard hate that stays in play (like Withered Wretch), you're just plain wrong. Stuff like Morningtide would still make him a 1/1 because state-based effects are only checked after the spell resolved - and at that point, Morningtide is a card in the graveyard, making Goyf a 1/1. That's one of the reasons why most graveyard-hate is so ineffective against him.

Good point... Sorry, hadn't considered that one. I was actually thinking more crypt, where sacrifice is part of the cost, so it goes poof and goyf would die. Sorry to not be clear, but yes, things like morningtide wouldn't work. However, crypt is one-sided anyways, so no help there. But anyways, he's not, so it's really irrelevant. I still fall back on explosives.

[chmoddity]

Goyf does plenty more. And it is all good -all of it. It gives aggro a boost, and since combo seems to be extra popular these days, it makes us all happier. And stuff like this:

If goyf attacks and I blobk with a warchief and kinesis him 90% of the time he will be dead. So are you happy at that point that your three cards for more mana than the goyf were 90% likely to be enough to kill it?

I'm happy to see Goblins get a little comeuppance, albeit just a little. With combo going north in playtime and STP>Lightning Bolt, is this the swan song for UGr thresh?

[The Rack]

So are you happy at that point that your three cards for more mana than the goyf were 90% likely to be enough to kill it?

I would be dissapointed that I had to 3 for 1 it but it is still a way for mono red goblins to deal with it. That's all I was saying.

It looks like red threshs plan would be to drop their own goyf then burn the other during damage, but thats all i can think of.

[zulander]

I have one question. Why the heck is this stickied? I don't think it's worty of being stickied...

[Peter_Rotten]

I have one question. Why the heck is this stickied? I don't think it's worty of being stickied...

If you are concerned about what is worty of being stickied and what isn't worty of being stickied, then please addess those issues via a PM to a Mod.

[Top Deck]

Tarmogoyf is very over-rated. $20 for this thing? why?

Chalice for 2 before he gets out stops him. Don't forget about that.

[Phantom]

Tarmogoyf is very over-rated. $20 for this thing? why?

Chalice for 2 before he gets out stops him. Don't forget about that.


There's no part of this post that isn't hilarious.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Tarmogoyf is very over-rated. $20 for this thing? why?

Because he'll be played in every format?

[Tacosnape]

People pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for Ancestral Recall because it was the best blue card ever printed.

Therefore paying $20 for the best Green card ever printed is far from irrational in most people's minds.

[Top Deck]

People pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for Ancestral Recall because it was the best blue card ever printed.

Therefore paying $20 for the best Green card ever printed is far from irrational in most people's minds.

Would you trade me all of your extra Force of Wills for these cards? If so I have 5 extra ones (aside from my playset that I already have). I have 8 Force of Wills, and I am willing to trade up to 5 Tarmogoyfs for 5 Force of Wills.

[thefreakaccident]

Tarmogoyf is good in a completely different way than force of will, please do not discuss FoW, I know they are around the same price range, but who cares.

[mikekelley]

Would you trade me all of your extra Force of Wills for these cards? If so I have 5 extra ones (aside from my playset that I already have). I have 8 Force of Wills, and I am willing to trade up to 5 Tarmogoyfs for 5 Force of Wills.

:laugh: :laugh:

That was clever.

This will come down once block rotates, but for awhile it will just be another hot card in type 2 like Damnation or somesuch.

Best green card ever printed? Haha, I think, while sad, it might just be true.

[Hanni]

Tombstalker seems like a solid answer. Removing 6 cards in your graveyard should hopefully weaken him a little bit, and a 5/5 flyer isn't a bad answer in itself. If Tarmo gets dropped to 3/4 or 4/5, Tombstalker can take him. Otherwise, Tombstalker can always fly over head. Not the greatest answer, but it was one I haven't seen mentioned yet.

[Adan]

Dealing with Tarmogoyf...How about Vedalken Shackles or rather Threads of Disloyalty???

Stealing Tarmogoyf ROCKS!!!

[Kadaj]

I'm sure some of these have already been mentioned, but here goes...

Crime/Punishment
Smother
Pernicious Deed
Ghastly Demise (Questionable, but depending on the decktype you're playing it could be solid)
Diabolic Edict
Engineered Explosives

Basically, Tarmogoyf's biggest weakness is it's low CC in a way. Obviously, that's also a major reason why it's so strong as well, but it leaves it vulnerable to the selective sweepers like Punishment, Deed, and E.E., as well as Smother. Ghastly Demise is probably the weakest of the aforementioned answers, just because your graveyard probably has to be quite big if you're going to kill a decently sized Goyf. Edict is solid in general against Aggro-Control, as they tend to try and ride 1 threat and protect it, so if you can sneak an Edict in their threat is screwed no matter what it is.

Tarmogoyf is far from answerable, it's just very resilient to damaged based removal, because it's toughness will often grow much faster then the burn could kill it. Most removal in Black and White, along with the boardsweepers and Blue's creature stealing, don't care how big you are, they just swat you aside all the same.

[Top Deck]

I see Tarmogoyf as over-valued and over-rated, but I guess a 3/4 for 1G is okay by legacy standards... oh yaw they already have plant elemental, and rogue elephant. Goyf is never a threat until after like turn 4 or 5 anyhow.

[sammiel]

Tarmogoyf is typically a 3/4 for 2 AT HIS WEAKEST. He will routinely be a 4/5 or bigger lategame, which makes him an incredible win condition for control decks too.

[T is for TOOL]

Keep the discussion on-topic people.

-TOOL

[Osse]

Uhm. Smother? Last Gasp? Spell Snare is also pretty awesome right now.

[raharu]

Tarmogoyf is not that bad. Just terror it and shut up please.

[Cait_Sith]

Uhm. Smother? Last Gasp? Spell Snare is also pretty awesome right now.

Smother and Terror work. Last Gasp is iffy. Spell Snare is also iffy.

He is just a ridiculously hard dude to kill, especially with Thresh's counter support. I think it is time Green picked up a solid dude.

[thefreakaccident]

I have found that the best anti-tarmo creature out there is Jotan grunt, simply because he can usually take a +1/+1 off of goyf every turn, as well as not being dead against anything in the format. He also doubles as an almost as broken beater (although not so).

Does Hanni fish even care about goyf?

[Cait_Sith]

It sucks too much too!

That was mean, yes, but Thresh tends to have a good Fish MU. MD Grunt can be a nightmare though.

[Bane of the Living]

Im suprised I havent seen any goyf's Ridin the Dilu Horse..

+3/+3 and unblockable at a bargin bin price.

[PwnerOfNoobz]

Tarmogof aint that big of a deal.alot of ppl just counter it and plus there is a ton of cards that beat it...yes it is a bomb and yes it can be very dangerous but if you are playing white or blue then it should be a piece of cake and if u cant deal with it if ur playing white and blue then u should quit magic im sorry to say but i have never ever had trouble with him.

Welcome to The Source! Please use proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation in future posts---frogboy