[Deck] Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn

[georgjorge]

This card is rumored to be in Conflux (on MTGSalvation):


Martial Coup WWX
Sorcery
Put X 1/1 white Soldier tokens into play.
If X is greater than 4, destroy all other creatures.

[Captain Hammer]

Seems like a decent fit. It's both a Wrath effect and an alternative win condition.

This is one of the few legacy decks that can afford to spend 7 mana.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

So it is a weak decree of justice and a weak Wrath in one card.

So if you replace it for Wrath of god you couldnt as consestently keep creatures from the table as with WoG!

If you cut decree for it you loose a lot against landstill.decks where decree begins to shine...

[Jaiminho]

Decree can't be countered, save Stifle, and draws you a card. Wrath costs 4, while this costs 7. This is garbage.

[Illissius]

It's worse than Wrath against aggro decks and worse than Decree against control decks, but on the other hand it's better than Decree against aggro decks and better than Wrath against control decks, so this alone doesn't lead to a conclusion. However, I agree that it's not likely to be better by enough in the latter cases to make up for how much worse it is in the former. But you never know. Maybe another redundant Wrath effect (not replacing the existing ones) which doubles as a decent win condition is just what the doctor ordered in some metagames.

[georgjorge]

So it is a weak decree of justice and a weak Wrath in one card.

So if you replace it for Wrath of god you couldnt as consestently keep creatures from the table as with WoG!

If you cut decree for it you loose a lot against landstill.decks where decree begins to shine...


How is the matchup against Landstill in general ? Can the deck afford to lose Decree for this, or would it make the matchup unwinnable ?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It's junk against aggro-control, unlike DoJ, which is the larges archetype in Legacy. And I don't even maindeck DoJ. I see no reason to run this card.

I haven't had any trouble with Sui; it's just an inferior Team America, although Hymn can be a pain. What aggro is causing your problems? If they have 12+ burn spells I could see it. That's a case where you might want to run, oh Story Circle or Genju of the Fields or Ivory Tower or something.

[Captain Hammer]

Actually Sui Black WAS the deck causing me problems (when testing against my own Eva Green deck ironically enough). Please try this matchup more before dismissing it as a worse Team America.

Between getting my best cards seized and hymned away, getting my land drops blown up, my scrying sheets wasted, and not having StP always ready to answer a turn one Hippie, spending four mana to Wrath a Goyf only to have them Reanimate it back into play for just one mana, the matchup had been causing me headaches. Not to mention the 15+ large creatures anyone of which kills in 3-4 turns.

Hell, I lost two games in part to getting my own Eternal Dragon reanimated against me after I plainscycled it and then having to deal with that.

Don't get me wrong, this decks wins some of the time. But some of the time, it's best removal/answers to aggro get taken out by the discard.

And an awfully lot of the time, you work your ass off to deal with their early creatures and maintain control of the board, only to have one lousy creature slip through the cracks and stick around long enough to do you in.

I played Team America and that wasn't exactly an easy matchup either, so I don't know why you dismiss that matchup. But atleast against Team America you had 13 removal spells to kill their eight creatures, so that even if a few of them get discarded away, you still have enough left over.

But with Sui, you have to deal with all that and also have to deal with 15 creatures, 4 Hymns, 3 Reanimate to recover from wrath and use your own Eternal Dragons against you, Krosan Grips from the board, on top of all the standard land destruction nonsense.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Tutor for Top. Seriously. It's really hard to lose to discard strategies with a million removal spells available via Top.

[Valtrix]

So, I pulled open my MWS again today, and found the old mono-white I was working on before I decided to go more toward Quinn. It's not really Quinn, but this seemed like a good thread to talk about it since it's monowhite and is somewhat close, though favoring a very different direction. I think it looks really cool, but at the same time I have no idea how well it would actually do. I haven't tinkered with it much, but I really like maze of ith and crucible. I used to play with this on workstation for awhile and it did pretty well...But that's workstation, so it doesn't really matter. Auramancy in the board is probably unneeded, but that with moat/circles can be a hardlock against a lot of things.

// Lands
4 [REW] Wasteland
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
11 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
1 [SHM] Mistveil Plains

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [8E] Story Circle
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [MI] Sacred Mesa
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 1 [8E] Circle of Protection: Black
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: White
SB: 1 [TE] Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 [5E] Circle of Protection: Green
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [SHM] Greater Auramancy
SB: 1 (Whatever)

[Captain Hammer]

With the exception of the manabase and 2 Crucibles, the spellbase actually looks near identical to Quinn.

Was the spell base indeed just like that before you ever saw Quinn, a mighty big coincidence, or has the spellbase been influenced by Quinn since then?

[Valtrix]

It was pretty much exactly like that. I just switched to snow-covered plains to throw people off :P I think I added a few tops after Quinn, but that's all. It works really well with fetch + crucible.

I really like crucible a lot essentially, and was wondering if it might be useful at all because of the acess to all the cool lands. There should maybe be humility there too, though I don't know if I like it much.

[Captain Hammer]

I've been eyeing Godhead of Awe as a decent all around answer to aggro. It'll probably get killed but till then it will hold off your opponents attacks. And if it's not killed, then it wins you the game within 5 turns.

Probably not worth it, but just wanted to throw the idea out there.

I can't afford Moat. So just for fun, I'm going to throw together a casual white control deck similar to Quinn but using Godhead of Awe, Magus of the Moat (to draw all the StPs), and then use the Stuffy Doll + Guilty Conscience combo for the win.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I strongly advise running Scrying Sheets + Top. It is a remarkably efficient, flexible draw engine, especially for White.

What other aggro are you having trouble with? Kitchen Finks and Exile are both viable options in aggro-heavy metas.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

I'm going to chime in with the other folks who've been asking 'Why no Mouth of Ronom?' It just seems like it couldn't really mess anything up to take out four Plains and add four of the Mouth of Ronom. You can draw it with Scrying Sheets, it's inexorable creature kill, for fuck's sake, and it fits in a land slot. What's not to like? Is this deck really that hungry for white mana that it can't drop a few Plains?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Is this deck really that hungry for white mana that it can't drop a few Plains?


Yes.

Also, one of the deck's strengths is it's resilience to Moon effects and Wasteland. Scrying Sheets is worth giving them an opening for Wasteland. A six mana sac-a-land kill spell that can't hit Goyf, Stalker, Jrednot, or Mongoose is not.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, have y'all taken a look at this card Path to Exile that's rumored to be coming out in Conflux?

According to rumor, it's a card that is exactly the same as StP (a white instant for one mana that removes target creature from the game) except instead of gaining life, the creature's controller gets to search his library for a basic land and put it into play tapped.

...So, my question is, is Path to Exile good in Quinn? Is being able to have 'copies 5-8' of StP worth making space for??

It seems like a pretty sweet card to me, IBA, what do you think?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

This deck doesnt need 8 stp

You couldnt abuse the card like removeing a own creature that has leath dmg on the stack, the Carddisadvantage and tempo loss matters in the early game And it is so bad against goblin lakey...

If you realy need 5-8 clunky stps than run condemn!

Maybe this card finds a home in some zoo.decs where the lifegain from stp matters and where you could target your own creatures...

[pandabaer]

since with the combo the life aspect of swords is totally irrelevant swords is superior in this deck and you dont wat 8 of them :).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm having trouble thinking of a matchup where I wouldn't rather have Condemn if I needed to open myself up more to Chalice/CB. Dark Confidant is the primary case, but I'd rather avoid the card disadvantage in most scenarios. The land is going to matter a lot more than life at any point in the game where I couldn't just play O-Ring or Wrath.

[Poesjuh]

I've been wanting to play a second deck next to my 4c-Thresh, and because I've played Parfait for a while some years ago, this deck will take me "back to my roots" :P

So for now I've decided to copy the list from page 9, actually the same IBA uses, with the Painter-Stone combo. I feel that this combo is strictly better dan Stuffy-Conscience, although Stuffy Doll rocks and perhaps I'll switch to this one later on, simply because it's much more fun to play ^^

Anyway, I'm going to goldfish the deck a couple of times against my Thresh to see how it works. I was wondering though, if anyone can help me with the following:

- How do the first 5 or so turns usually look like, what things do you play for instant against Team America, or any other matchup?
- What beginning hands seem good, but in reality suck? What kind of hands should I keep, and definitely not keep?
- What are the most common sideboard cards, and against which decks do you use them? What goes out, what comes in?

If I get a good idea of this I can speed up my understanding of the deck and learn to play it a lot faster :) So hope you can help me :)

[georgjorge]

Seeing as you already run 4 Tops, I think that 1-2 Scroll Racks might be good for this deck. For one mana more initial cost and the same activation, you get an effect that's arguably better than Top (Top is kinda like Ponder, while Rack is like Brainstorm), and works just as well with shuffling and Scrying Sheets. It also helps if you really really need a certain card, as you can dig down 4-5 cards instead of only 3. Thoughts on that ?

[Poesjuh]

In the games I've played so far om MWS I never really used the ability of Scrying that much, it just never came to pass really. Everytime I had it I preferred to play something else instead of not playing anything and then at the end of my opponents turn activate top and draw a extra card. So far I never had enough lands in my hand to make Scroll Rack worth playing.

What I have experienced now, is that I really don't have any (except for E.Dragon) shuffle effects in my deck, and I really really really miss them. Any suggestion for this?

Other than that I like the deck so far, the painter/stone combo is very good and quick. Also the fact that you can go "E. Tutor, search -> tap SDT to draw it instantly" is really helpfull when you need a card right away and don't want to wait another turn for it.

[Zach Tartell]

So for now I've decided to copy the list from page 9, actually the same IBA uses, with the Painter-Stone combo. I feel that this combo is strictly better dan Stuffy-Conscience, although Stuffy Doll rocks and perhaps I'll switch to this one later on, simply because it's much more fun to play ^^

Don't play Stuffy/Conscience. The ability to combo out in one turn is incredibly important. The 7 mana Chant-Stone-Painter-combo play is mad awesome. Having to pass the turn with a combo piece (and no Teferi in play to make Chant a hard lock) is a no-no. ('Cause your opponent will be able to Swords Stuffy Doll before you can Chant him.)(But you're all grown-ups, so I suppose we don't have to go over that)


- How do the first 5 or so turns usually look like, what things do you play for instant against Team America, or any other matchup?
- What beginning hands seem good, but in reality suck? What kind of hands should I keep, and definitely not keep?
- What are the most common sideboard cards, and against which decks do you use them? What goes out, what comes in?

In my poorly-titled tournament report, found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=307558&postcount=1) you can find my list that I'll be referring to. This is gonna be a love affair with the list function right quick:

Your hand must include but not be limited to:

A Sensei's top

This is without a doubt the most important card in your deck. You NEED to resolve one.

At least two lands, probably fewer than four, with at least one being a Snow-Plains (although if you hit four I suppose two would be good)

Don't be afraid to keep a 2-lander with a Scrying Sheets involved. You can run that all day (even against Wasteland decks - the deck runs 22 lands and 3 Dragons), but you kind of have to resolve Top on turn 1 with that.

1 Removal spell (Swords, Halo, Oblivion Ring, Wrath of God)

It depends on the deck you're up against. Thresh runs 8 Threats, so you have plenty time to dig for a Halo or Wrath (Goose) or Swords or O-Ring (whatever else).

Team America falls into this too, but not Red Thresh. At least you should be more afraid of their burn (as they could easilyi rush in like 10 damage and then just play the waiting game while you attempt to assemble the combo)

Against Goblins I suppose you'd want to mull more agressively for a Swords (or Halo, on the Play), but since that's gone down so much in played-ness recently it's not really that important.
Merfolk is scary ('cause now we don't have Wing Shards or other great mass removal that Wombat used to have), but boarding in Decrees helpls a bunch, and they don't have proper removal, so you can keep the Combo (Painter/Stone) in.
Against any sort of combo (like Storm combo) you want crazy amounts of Chants and Abeyances, plus... 4 land over 4 turns and an Enlightened Tutor for (or just straight-up drawing into) Isochron Scepter. Establishing Chant Lock is HUGE (even if they have outs), 'cause you have more Chants than they do (don't be afraid to chant them if they try to chant you). And also, don't be afraid to lose. It happens to the best of us.
Survival (depends on build. I'll skip this now and address it when talking about boarding)
Zoo or Affinity or Goyf Sligh (I'm sorry to lump them all together, but the Approach is fairly similar (barring boarding in the 10-mana Disenchants for Affinity): Find Moat. Then Chant decks with burn spells, then combo out. Ain't no shame in waiting for turn 8 or 9 to combo them out (but FIND MOAT FIRST!), 'cause then they're relegated to playing shitty burn or Disciple combo. Also, Dragon is bigger than everything you'll run into other than Goyfs. Story Circle post board helps a bunch.
Ichorid is rough. You can only hope to set up Chant Lock (or Chant them when they bust a Breakthrough with an LED to go all-out). Use Abeyances and Chants as time walks if you can.
Did I forget something?

Your first five turns (screw you - the list function isn't flawless and the box was over your list of questions):

Against decks that use the combat step, just live until turn 4 (5, if Daze is a factor), Wrath, and then chill trading one-for-one on creatures ('scept against tribal decks, 'cause they might overrun you if you can't get another Wrath quickly). Of course, resolving Top is a must against everything.
Control: (I forgot control earlier, but I'll address it in the boarding section) Resolve Top, then profit. You have one less Chant main than they have hard counters, and I love me some Runed Halo against Mishra's Factory and the like. Nothing really happens in the Control/Control match until you start dropping Dragons 'round turn 7.
Combo: If you make it to turn five you'll prolly make it out of the woods. Look for Chant Lock wicked quick.

Boarding is fairly easy:

Counterbalance Thresh (White): -4 Combo pieces, -2 Scepter, +3 Ray of Distortion, +2 Decree, +1 Sacred Mesa (Lose shit they'll grip (causing them to hold onto said Grips, 'cause losing after getting Chanted is mighty scary), board in stuff for Counterbalance control, and alternate wincons).
Black tempo thresh: Honestly, I don't think you need to board much. The 1-of Sacred Ground isn't worth it against tempo threshes, 'cause you'd only get back a Scrying Sheets, and I can't find anything to cut. Paint the world black with Servant (no Snuff out for you). Against Team America (sorry everybody, I kind of look at them similarly) I'd drop two scepters for an Abeyance and the Sacred Ground maybe. Or maybe just the two Decrees over that.
Landstill: -4 Swords, -3 Wrath, +1 Hannah's Custody, +2 Decree, +3 Ray of Distortion, +1 Abeyance (I feel like dealing with recursion Engines and Deeds is good, and then Humilities that could fuck with Painter)(Or you could keep in 3 Swords for them (for opposing dragons))
Dreadstill: -2 Scepter, -1 Dragon, -2 Abeyance, +3 Ray of Distortion, +2 Decree
Ichorid: -2 Oblivion Ring (keep 1 in for needles), -1 Dragon or Abeyance (I'd cut Dragon, 'cause winning quickly isn't that important - just get Moat or Chant lock or multiple Crypts), +2 Crypt, +1 Relic
Combo (storm): -4 Swords, -3 Oblivion Ring/Wrath, -1 Wrath/O-Ring (obviously the other one), +1 Rule of Law, +1 Abeyance, +2 Crypt, +2 Decree, +1 Sacred Mesa, +1 Relic (Shutting off IGG maybe is worth not having Swords in your hand)(Also, if you think Serenity might be an issue, take out Wraths and leave in O-Rings. I leave in Wraths 'cause having outs to ETW is important.)
RGBSA/Elves Survival: -1 Dragon, -3 Abeyance, -2 Scepter, +2 Crypt, +1 Relic, +2 Decree, -2 Runed Halo (I don't like it here, 'cause they have so many things that can beat your face in)(Read: it's tough to name correctly if you don't just pick Goyf, which is the reason I only keep one in)(Remember, they have mad outs to Enchantments and Artifacts), +2 Ray of Distortion (I don't know what to cut for the 3rd one). You leave the combo in here 'cause they don't have any instant-speed removal (and you leave in Chants for Fogs and the savage Chant-you-can't-grip-my-Painter-play-painter-and-stone-and-win play). Abeyances are better against the Elves Survival (it stops activated abilities too), so maybe I'd keep them in and leave the rays in the board (as you can o-ring the Survival and just wrath/Decree your way home).
Survival with white: -4 Combo pieces, -3 Abeyance, -2 Scepter, +2 Decree, +2 Decree, +2 Crypt, +1 Relic, +2 Ray of Distortion (PRO TIP: O-ringing a Harmonic Sliver is the greatest play, ever)
Tribal Aggro: -2 Scepter, +2 Story Circle. Against Goblins I'd drop a Chant for the 4th Abeyance (to stop Incinerator when you're going to combo off). Decrees could come in over 2 Abeyance against Merfolk or Elves.
Goyf Sligh: -2 Scepter, -2 Abeyance, +2 Decree, +2 Story Circle (You'll have to wait to find a chant to combo out, or land a Story Circle)
Burn: -2 Abeyance, -2 Scepter, +2 Story Circle +2 Decree



Gimme a shout if I forgot anything.


Seeing as you already run 4 Tops, I think that 1-2 Scroll Racks might be good for this deck. For one mana more initial cost and the same activation, you get an effect that's arguably better than Top (Top is kinda like Ponder, while Rack is like Brainstorm), and works just as well with shuffling and Scrying Sheets. It also helps if you really really need a certain card, as you can dig down 4-5 cards instead of only 3. Thoughts on that ?

Don't run Scroll Rack. DON'T RUN SCROLL RACK!

It's way too "cool." The deck is tight enough anyway. I can't think of a single card that I could cut to fit it, 'scept for maybe the 3rd Dragon. But I'd much rather have a Dragon over Scroll Rack, almost always.


In the games I've played so far om MWS I never really used the ability of Scrying that much, it just never came to pass really. Everytime I had it I preferred to play something else instead of not playing anything and then at the end of my opponents turn activate top and draw a extra card. So far I never had enough lands in my hand to make Scroll Rack worth playing.

Here's the deal: In the event that I played in (5-2 in a 74 man event), I drew 31 cards off of Scrying Sheets. Don't cut them. Ever. Man up and shell out for 18 Snow Plains and 4 Sheets. It's worth it.


What I have experienced now, is that I really don't have any (except for E.Dragon) shuffle effects in my deck, and I really really really miss them. Any suggestion for this?

I figure that E-tutor works too. You don't need them too much. And 3 Dragons is enough to find one quickly enough.

Final thoughts:
Play Painter/Stone. Being able to win quickly is awesome. Jack's assertion that being able to win, then go grab a piece of pizza or stretch and walk around is imporant is actually a real thing. For serious. Painter/Stone is incredibly more powerful than Doll/Concience.
Play the snow-lands. Period. It drew me half of my deck over seven rounds. What did your lands do for you the last time you played them?
Moat is wicked important. If you're gonna go the Humility-way then you lose the combo aspect. Although maindecked decree is mad sexy.

[Wargoos]

I guess the best possible replacement for moat + painterstone combo is humility + elspeth ( though being nearly as expensive), no?

[Poesjuh]

@ Zach
Great post, thx. I'm way to sleepy now to read is seriously, so I'm going to first thing in the morning.
Quick answer: I'm playing 18 snow lands and 4 sheets + the painter/stone combo :) Owh, I also have Moat :)

Edit: actually, I play the exact same mainboard as you.

[Valtrix]

So, for rule of law, wouldn't you guys think that ethersworn canonist is better? Since you're going against combo they don't really have creature removal, so the creature vs. enchantment aspect doesn't matter much. They're just going to bounce if anything. Also, it costs less. First turn tutor > ethersworn is better than having to wait until turn three. In fact, at that point I'd rather just grab runed halo on tendrils instead. But really, what makes it best is that it can actually attack, which is good for us against combo. It lets us have a faster clock, so we can actually kill them instead of having protection wars. It also cuts down on the effectiveness of ad naseam the more times we get in, even if they have a chance to bouncde it. Also, it can't be hit by duress, since combo likes that a lot. The main function difference is that ethersworn is non-artifact, but combo still needs to play too many non-artifacts, so it's pretty much as effective in my opinion.

Nice report by the way. It was good to see some sideboard thoughts, and glad that you did fairly well at the tournament.

And just get a moat. I try to play this deck without it, and I miss it. Painter/stone combo is also best, but I'm still going to try horizons/belcher. I just really like that if horizons hits play you draw removal spells/timewalks for (almost) the rest of the game. It won't win as fast, but I'll see if it's too much of a detriment...When I can actually get around to playing legacy again. No good places around my school unless I take a bus =/

[Captain Hammer]

Just wondering, but how many people other than IBA play this deck. And of those that do, have they made any changes and think they are better than IBA's build?

Or is IBA's build pretty much perfect.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My bad, I've been not focusing too much on Magic in January, and most of that was on Extended testing.

@Zach

Awesome post. Just a few things;

1) My number one target against Ichorid is usually Moat.

2) While Top in hand is huge, I don't automatically mull if I don't see it. I actually end up E. Tutoring for Top roughly as often as I tutor for Moat or Isochron Scepter, the other two big targets. The important thing is usually just to get Top going by mid game, although this is somewhat less important if you can lock them out of the game with Scepter-Chant or Moat, especially g1 where few decks have answers.

3) That's it. Damn. That was a sexy post. Someone needs a Unicorn Shower.

If you can't afford Grindstone or Moats, I would use:

1x Humility
3x Decree of Justice
2x Ajani Goldmane

with the 1x maindeck Sacred Mesa.

Ajani is much better with DoJ + Humility, doubling your clock, than Elspeth, and also answers burn to a large extent.

The big ability is better on Elspeth, but it takes too long to get there for it to be relevant usually.

@general

And seriously, no, I wasn't kidding about the being able to stretch around thing.

I've played control for a long time, and let me just break it down;

In most environments, answers beat threats. There's no rock paper scissors metagame; there's only threats and answers, that are either right or wrong, and the other parts of the deck are just the lubrication to make the pieces fit (mana and card draw/manipulation).

Control is objectively stronger most of the time, at least in theory; the biggest obstacles to control decks aren't the raw percentages but the tedium. Control loses to the clock. Control loses because you get worn out or bored playing it all day and by the fifth or sixth round you're running out of energy, underfed and stupid.

If you honestly want to improve your win percentages with control, get in shape (better to be fat and have muscle than to be a skeleton; skeletons have no energy reserves), get a full night's sleep beforehand, and make sure you can play tight enough to finish rounds with time left over to go grab a bite to eat and walk around outside where there's fresh air. Bring food with you to the tournament.

I remember when I top 8'd one of SCG's Duel for Duals with Rabid Wombat, only to lose in the T8 to UW Fish, a cakewalk, because I was literally falling asleep at the desk.

[Captain Hammer]

Wouldn't the

XWW
Kill all creatures then put X 1/1 creature tokens into play


be better than Decree of Justice?

I'm going to build a similar casual version of this deck but using that card + Godhead of Awe (and a tutorable 1 of Humility) and Ajani for kicks.

[rleader]

Decree trumps counters with the cycling effect: that's why it, and Eternal Dragon, beat out win secondary win conditions that are more splashy.

[Captain Hammer]

Fair enough.

IBA, good job with this deck, really.

But is there any chance that you could put some of your board control deck building magic into making MBC competitive again. Something like Train Wreck, but in Monoblack abusing Scrying Sheets + Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths.

[Giles]

But is there any chance that you could put some of your board control deck building magic into making MBC competitive again. Something like Train Wreck, but in Monoblack abusing Scrying Sheets + Cabal Coffers + Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoths.

The trouble is that Scrying Sheets is only good with 100% snow manabase. That is comes with the territory with Sheets.

[Maëlig]

Wouldn't the

XWW
Kill all creatures then put X 1/1 creature tokens into play


be better than Decree of Justice?

This :

Decree trumps counters with the cycling effect
Also, it's sorcery speed, which makes a huge difference.
It's essentially a bad wrath and decree all-in-one, which isn't enough to make it a good card imo (in legacy that is).


If you can't afford Grindstone or Moats, I would use:

1x Humility
3x Decree of Justice
2x Ajani Goldmane

I'm testing a similar version, but is there any particular reason not to play humility as a 3x? It's useless in multiples but if you manage to land one and make it stick you're usually already on your way to victory. And it's not a great silver bullet in that you'll almost always want one against aggro-control, at any point in the game (unlike other tutorable 1-ofs). Also, post-SB all the enchantment removal and in particular k.grip make it unlikely that a single humility will last long enough.

[Captain Hammer]

I don't know, I guess I just really like the idea of playing Withering Wisps in a MBC deck abusing Snow Swamps, Top and Scrying Sheets.

And I really really really love the idea of abusing Snow Islands, Top, Counterbalance and Scrying Sheets in a MUC deck. Why none of the MUC players bothered to do this yet, though I've suggested it on several occasions, I'll never get.

[cwt1220]

@Zach Tartell
Can you post your list from the last mox tournament?

Thanks

-Chris-

[Maëlig]

And I really really really love the idea of abusing Snow Islands, Top, Counterbalance and Scrying Sheets in a MUC deck. Why none of the MUC players bothered to do this yet, though I've suggested it on several occasions, I'll never get.
I'll take a wild guess... B2B? Also, mono-U has access to better card draw.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't know, I guess I just really like the idea of playing Withering Wisps in a MBC deck abusing Snow Swamps, Top and Scrying Sheets.

I'm less worried about the synergy with Sheets and more worried about the synergy with Coffers, which really wants your every non-Coffers land to be a swamp.


And I really really really love the idea of abusing Snow Islands, Top, Counterbalance and Scrying Sheets in a MUC deck. Why none of the MUC players bothered to do this yet, though I've suggested it on several occasions, I'll never get.

I think it'd work, but that's another thread.


@Zach Tartell
Can you post your list from the last mox tournament?

Thanks

-Chris-

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showpost.php?p=307558&postcount=1


I'm testing a similar version, but is there any particular reason not to play humility as a 3x? It's useless in multiples but if you manage to land one and make it stick you're usually already on your way to victory. And it's not a great silver bullet in that you'll almost always want one against aggro-control, at any point in the game (unlike other tutorable 1-ofs). Also, post-SB all the enchantment removal and in particular k.grip make it unlikely that a single humility will last long enough.

Wrath seems better generally, as you don't like losing to 1/1s. Maybe if you ran 3x Humility and cut Wrath you could run a second Mesa and run Elspeth instead of Ajani, giving you lots of sources of 1/1s with a Humility in play. But, I think it's just better to have the tutor target Humility. I don't know what I'd cut to fit in 3x Wrath and 3x Humility.

[blaat]

Well I picked up this deck some weeks ago.
It's actually really fun to play (former stompy only player).

I tested it with double moat for better results in my meta.
So many decks here don't have mainboard answers when it sticks.

The only card I doubt is sacred mesa.
Although you have mana to create a couple of pegasi, it didn't work like it is used in enchantress with f.e sanctum.
It works but very slow if you need some mana open every turn (f.e i had a lot of chant/scepter locks with only a mesa online and needed mana for top/plow/2nd chant/abeyance.
I also see more decks playing engineered plague again.

Too bad scrying sheets doesn't draw you a card, so hoofprints could be a wincon.
You still have tops to draw you cards but I don't think it's good enough.

I guess there isn't any better card to replace mesa.

As soon as I have time for some tourneys I report how it went.

btw, is it this deck why there's a run on moats? only a few angel stompy decks play moat

[Sanguine Voyeur]

The only card I doubt is sacred mesa.White has access to many win conditions. Eternal Dragon, Painter's Servant + Grindstone, and Decree of Justice are a few that can be played in Quinn.
btw, is it this deck why there's a run on moats? only a few angel stompy decks play moatMoats were only printed in Legends. Legends is an old set with a somewhat limited print run. There's little supply and a somewhat decent demand, ergo, it's expensive.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, what's the word on Path to Exile for this deck? I can see how since a lot of lists are becoming more reliant on the combo win, that the extra land matters more than the life gain from StoP, but I think the option to have "StoP #'s 5-8" could be pretty valuable in this deck... IBA, have you proxied that card at all?

[bowvamp]

The word is: "You don't care how much life they gain, you can still kill them through your combo win or your lifelink angel win". And StP is Swords to Plowshares, not StoP. PtE is just not worth the slots that it takes up. I mean sacrificing that much tempo is just stupid, and we already have enough one cc plays that adding another would mean less room for 2 cc+ plays.

[4eak]

I've enjoyed this deck for a while now, although I've not posted anything in this thread. I have a few questions/comments:

What percentage of game 1's do you win because your opponent conceded due to some combination of lock pieces like Moat or Chantlock (take a guess)?

Why don't you all maindeck Story Circle? It answers a lot of decks very effectively, gives you a strong game against burn/sligh/jank, and in so many cases, it acts as Runed Halo against an entire color. Admittedly, it isn't as good against combo as Halo, but against most everything else it has proven a worthy substitute for a single Halo.

I've moved to 19 or 20 plains (+4 sheets). Vindicate, Sinkhole, Wasted Sheets, and even more dangerous mass land removal like Devastating Dreams (curse you Aggro Loam) and Geddon (although, often screwed if you can't find Chantlock quickly anyways), has pushed me into running more lands to compensate. Anyone else had to do this?

While it was minimally addressed, I'm wondering why more people don't run the full 4 Enlightened tutor. This isn't a "silver bullet" deck exactly, but it has access to a variety of answers, some of which are much, much better than others in any given situation. Between Scepter/Chant locks, Moat, Runed Halo softlocks (against low quantity win condition decks), grabbing Top if you don't have one, Painter Combo (especially on end step with a piece in hand already), and a sideboard chuck full of enchantment/artifact answers, this seems like an easy 4-of. I've very rarely been sad to see multiple E-tutors.

How commonly do you use Sacred Mesa? That card really hasn't been very strong for me. While it is tutorable, it's slow, non-recurring like Dragon, sometimes mana-expensive, and it often just doesn't let me switch from the control to aggro role very effectively. I find in so many matches that Painter/Grindstone or even Dragon beatdown is just a flat out better, faster, and easier to protect. Outside of extirpate (but who the hell plays that card?), I haven't found good enough reasons to run Sacred Mesa. Is it a terrible sin to remove this card?


Lastly, I have a small thought experiment which I need to answer:

What is the best win condition for this deck if there are no time limits to games/matches?


Dragon:

You can't even go below 2 in this deck anyways. The land recursion alone comes up too often, and it provides inevitability in the face of non-StP control.
Let's assume this is an auto-3, because I think it must be.


What should be the other win condition(s)?


Painter/Servant:

A good number of matches that I would have lost turned into victory on the spot -- as with Top and Tutor this easily becomes an "oops, I win".
Cheap
Can win in a single turn, and in the late game, easily protected through Chant/Abeyance spam.
It takes two cards though, and they aren't very easy to protect by themselves. Against several decks, especially those with CotV or CB, I often already needed to be winning in the first place just to use this combo.
Requires 4 slots in your deck to be played in the first place.


Sacred mesa:

Cheap to put into play, and a single card, tutorable win condition. Card Slot efficient.
Makes blockers in tight spots.
Is very mana intensive over time, but requires minimal mana usage in any single given turn.
Can't win in a single turn


Decree of Justice:
Some of us don't even run the card, but I suspect that without time limits it could be the strongest win condition.

Can't be tutored.
Mostly uncounterable, cantrips, and fogs.
Instant speed and sometimes difficult for the opponent to anticipate.
Can't win in a single turn.
Safely usable earlier in the game than most other win conditions, and much closer to being cast and forget like E-Dragon than other win conditions which must be very carefully casted and protected at times.
Standstill, who cares?
Usually pretty slow.


I'm sure I've missed many things, so feel free to add or rebut. What combination of win conditions would you run given no time limits?





peace,
4eak

[DeathScythe]

To honour this awesome deck I thought it would be time to give it a shot in the Netherlands during the legacy side event of GP rotterdam

The list I played is pretty much the same as IBA's, I only played 2 disenchant and 1 return to dust instead of 3 rays as nobody had those damn things (have been looking for 2 months atm?! wtf?!)

Anyways here the reportage

Roundy uno Mono green elf ball (version with wierd 4 mana costing elves)

game 1
He beats me to 3 while I grind him a bit, I notice a fireball effect hitting the graveyard so I put him on elfball. I find a painter before I could go for the My Little Pony beatdown.

-2 scepter +2 story circle

Game 2

I grind him on like turn 9 after haloing his fireball and plow/wog the field a few times

1-0

Round 2 Solidarity

Good times, Good times.

Game 1. He tries to combo when I got 3 chant effects. He goes down to one card and plays his meditate into retardiness and wins from there

I board in pretty much everything but rule of law so I can combo in 1 turn. I even let him pick 4 random cards that stay in, you should've seen his face :tongue:

game 2 Same as game 1 but this time I succeed and he forgets his pact of negation

Game 3 see game 1, he wins by playing oona's grace and responds with brain freeze as we were in turn 5 of additional turns.

1-1

Round 3 Survial Rock

Game 1 My hand gets ripped with Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy but thanks to the master's divining top and the lack of pressure I get a Scepter Chant running

-2 scepter -1 o ring +1 abeyance + 1 tormod's crypt + 1 relic of 10/10 bigboy

Game 2 My hand gets ripped again but I do get a few things on the board. I luckily grind away a genesis and a few witnesses to remove with my tormod's crypt. She eventually gets a survival and a deed but lacks the creatures to make me worry. When she starts getting them I had enough time to chant, abeyance and grind her deck to 0.

2-1

Round 4 Evagreen (apparently not playing grips)

My hand get ripped and I get torn appart by tarmogay and a nasty black-coloured stalker.

-2 scepter -1 abeyance +2 stroy circle +1 mesa

Game 2&3

I get a story circle and a halo on goyf and win easy


Round 5 Geddonstax

game 1

He goes chalice @1, angel, geddon, stack. I go top, use top, use top, use top for godsake and scoop. Gata love holding 4 STP and 3 chant

-1 scepter -1 runed halo -1 mesa -1 wog -1 moat +2 sacred ground + all disenchant effects

Game 2 I am able to get enough plains to cast a return to dust on his smokestack and mox diamond (leaving him with 1 city and 1 T sphere and chant lock him after a few turns

Game 3: he goes all in with an armageddon on turn 2 leaving me with 0 permanents and him with a CoW and a stack at 1. I disenchant his stack in response (was also holding a sacred ground but decided not to play it) and win fairly easy from there with a chant lock, he does scoop when I do instead of hoping for a draw PROPS!!

4-1

Round 6 ID

Paired against a traveling mate and we both wanted to get breakfast

4-1-1

Round 7 TempoThresh

Game 1 goyfs and mongoose beat me to 5, I WoG the field, he volts me to 0

dunno wha i boarded in, boarded out 2 scepter though.

game 2

I counterbait a lot of things and WoG afterwards, tha dragon goes all in when he has 0 cards on hand and a magus + untreshed mongpose on the field.

game 3
We still had like 4 minutes but he wanted to play it out. I play 3 halos, one gets countered the other name goyf (he had 3 of those) and mongoose (2 of these). I WoG on turn 1 of extra time and he shows me 2 grip and a rushing river. If I didn't WoG he would've killed me the next turn

4-1-2

This made me end 7th getting 5 boosters conflux, worth 15 euros with a buyin of 5 euros. Sounds fare IMO

Comments on cards
Mesa: It didn;t do much as it was always killed/countered, if it sticked I would've won on it a number of times!.
aura of silence: Think there should be one in the board, destroy > o Ring by far and it's tutorable. It's better in MU where you expect grips and want to get rid of an enchantment and not see it back after grip/deed.

OVeral deck comment
GREAT! deck to play with, the ability to go 'holy crap I win' is plain retarded and overwhelming

[ScatmanX]

Great report! Really enjoy reading this deck reports and top 8s.

On the 3rd game against Stax, wouldn't it be better if you have destroyed CoW instead of Stack? He would have to sacrifice it by his turn, and would also miss CoW.

thaks for the post.

[DeathScythe]

Great report! Really enjoy reading this deck reports and top 8s.

On the 3rd game against Stax, wouldn't it be better if you have destroyed CoW instead of Stack? He would have to sacrifice it by his turn, and would also miss CoW.

thaks for the post.


Nope, he had 2 mox diamond laying beside it so he would've still had permanents to sac and he still had his landdrop :P. Also remembering my days with stack the possiblity of drawing another threat is rather low

[Pltnmngl]

http://www.wizards.com/mtg/images/daily/features/27a_silence_9ljam.jpg

Are you guys gonna use it?

[Unknown2]

no, probably not, no room in the deck for it, plus it kind of seems too much alongside orim's chant and abeyance

[Moczoc]

At maximum it could replace the 3 Abeyance in the deck (leaving 4 Abeyance + 1 Silence for SB :eyebrow: ) but I'm not experienced enough with this deck to say if this would be an improvement.

[Valtrix]

No, silence will (almost certainly) not see play in this deck.

Silence is comparable to orim's chant in that it hurts combo, protects our combo, and helps against counters. However, it doesn't combo with scepter nearly as well and can't act as a fog.

Abeyance is really only against blue and combo, but I think the cantripping of abeyance more than the slight benefits that silence has over it.

So, if we were looking for more slots to deal with combo/blue, then it might warrent inclusion, but I'm not really sure that that's what the deck is looking for right now. In my opinion there needs to be more ways for card advantage, or pseduo advantage. I find that I can't always draw answers, and when my permanant answers are answered then I'm in trouble.

[dre4m]

At maximum it could replace the 3 Abeyance in the deck (leaving 4 Abeyance + 1 Silence for SB :eyebrow: ) but I'm not experienced enough with this deck to say if this would be an improvement.

It would not. Abeyance cantrips for the one extra mana, which makes it better already, but when it's on a stick and generating card advantage, it becomes better than Silence in every way.

[4eak]

Abeyance is usually stronger than Silence in this deck.

Silence isn't a great card, but it does greatly improve the odds of creating a chant-like spell-lock on neutral or nearly neutral board states. In most cases, Scepter is the easy card to get, while Chant is the card I'm least likely to have around because I use it to bypass permission and stop combo mid-stream. Increasing the chances of seeing white timewalk, even if only against nearly neutral boards, isn't all that bad.

Abeyance isn't clearly better than Silence in every way either. While Abeyance nails activated abilities and also cantrips, which is generally stronger than preventing an opponent from casting enchantments/artifacts/creatures/Planeswalkes during a given turn (the difference), there are still plenty of cases where I'd just rather set up the full spell-lock provided by Silence.

Despite our habit of simply praying to generate insurmountable advantage (or even just winning) before Grip or counter->answer hits, too many games are won on the back of chant-lock to count Silence out completely. Admittedly, this deck has very little room for silence. In the end, it will probably belong in a deck that was more dedicated to pushing through a chant-lock.






peace,
4eak

[manugl84]

Hi all.

I tested the deck yesterday against reanimator and burn and went 8-2. The lost games were due to manascrewing.

Although the deck was amazing, I felt that it was a bit threat light. I was runnnig the grindstone combo and a single mesa.

Do you think a couple of decree of justice are a little excessive?

Thanks and sorry for my english.

[DeathScythe]

It might look a bit low on threats but that doesn't really matter. Preboard you have excelent ways of winning using one of the following
Scepter + chant (very little decks have MB awnsers to this)
Mesa (you play a 4 mesa's as you can tutor for it. If it sticks, your in VERY good shape)
PainterGrindstone (Duh)
Eternal Dragon (it's still a 5/5 slapper like mr tombstalker ;))

This will give you a fair ammount of ways to win the game. To find these you use sensei's divining top combined with scrying sheets tech or shuffle effects. It usually does take a while to kill your opponent (painter combo is fastest way though) but you also make sure your opponent is unable to kill you.

[Wargoos]

Hi there,
i played this deck full of awesomeness in a tourney with about 40 peeps.
I went 3-2 losing to domain zoo and MUC and beating Survival Elves, GW Reliquary-Armaggedon Loam and Belcher.

I have to say that i often boarded the Decrees out, since they were just more suckey than Decrees for me.
I think it should've been an 4-1 result, but i couldn't get some Story Circles and was burned down by zoo, which was quite pitiful since i could go off protectet the turn after he killed me.

Additionaly i like the idea of playing a pair of Elspeths MD, since a lot of decks just scoop to them, due to a lack of killoptions for her and just being faster than Mesa, though i really like mesa, i would conclude to play it in the side. (I played UWb Landstill with Elspeth main yesterday and Elspeth won me matches against loam, itf and goyfsligh).
Thats my most recent list:

IBA - more bear than man.dec
creature [5]
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Painter's Servant

instant [14]
3 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

sorcery [2]
2 Wrath of God

enchantment [7]
1 Moat
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo

artifact [8]
2 Grindstone
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Sensei's Divining Top

land [22]
4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains

planeswalker [2]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

60 cards

Sideboard:

2 Story Circle
1 Sacred Ground
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Ray of Distortion
3 Decree of Justice
1 Rule of Law
3 Relic of Progenitus
15 cards

I just love it.
Whadda you think?
Elspeth md - is this a brainfart?

[DeathScythe]

Personally I'm not fond of Elspeth in the deck unless you play humility. Furthermore, playing Elspeth makes runed halos semi-useless. The Tarmogoyf that is unable to hit you will run at her instead, not very tech imo. If you want Elspeth I suggest you drop the painter/grindstone and go for more humility/moat and win using that method.

Sacred mesa has been awesome for me so far, but I don't play it before I get 5 lands. If I play it when I have 3/4 you will be stuck on 2/3 mana the next turn as you have to make a token in your next upkeep. If you play it when you have 5 mana you can EOT shit a token and be able to make 2/3 the following turn. Also you don't play a mesa vs everything, it's very good against decks with a low threat level (or low amount of creatures in most cases) such as Team America. Against swarm.deck such as goblins it's not fast enough, true you have situations where it wins against goblins but they aren't common.

A card I ran into recently was Solitairy confinement. I think it could be good to get this in the main as a singleton as you have good ways of getting card on hand (eternal dragon, sheets, abeyance) to support it. This could win you several games but I'm yet to test it.

[Wargoos]

Hmm, i'm not sure about the Confinement without an actual carddraw engine. And we have 3 Halo's, which are quite good as well buying time. But it needs definitaley testing, i guess a 2/1 halo-confinement split could work.

So far Elspeth is pretty much defendable by chant and moat effects in my opinion.
And since it's forcing the opponent to attack the elspeths instead of yourself, you'r still buying time to build up more defense, establish the chant lock or find the painterstone finish. If they can't get rid of her, she 'll definitaley crush the opponent.
Overall i think that elspeth is too powerful, not to play it and that its a good addition to this deck. Also the fact of having a better effect with another card isn't diminishing it's power with another one.

[DeathScythe]

You don't need a draw engine, just a dragon and 5 mana is enough to keep it up. Ofcourse you have to have a win option out (or shitloads of mana to recur the dragon twice & cycle for your top...). In pre-boarded games you can also lock your opponent with this and let him deck himself assuming they have 0 enchantment removal.

Regarding elspeth, it looks like you cut 1 WoG and the mesa for it, which are also massive time buyers (though mesa it's to brilliant against trample). The time elspeth will buy you is probably the same as when you cast a WoG or get a mesa online.
I repeat, you can play elspeth but not in your list, it just doesn't feel right in there. What you can do is drop the painter/stone and get more moat ad humilities in. I believe such a list/discussion is a few pages back

[4eak]

Confinement + E-Dragon has been interesting against some decks, but most of the time, MWC just can't effectively win under it. You needed to already be in a winning position (the late game) to make it work in the first place. Even if you do get the combo going, far too many decks play a maindeck answer to confinement, which allows them to pop it and kill you in one swoop. Confinement is especially useless in games 2 and 3 where disenchant effects (or bounce) are guaranteed.

Confinement/Dragon usually just timewalks your opponent 15 turns, at which point, you've lost under their massive tempo/card advantage. I don't think Confinement is an actual answer, which is what this deck is all about.






peace,
4eak

[Valtrix]

Elspeth is also meh. I like her a lot, but it's really much harder to use her effectively with halo, because then their creatures become useful again. Yet she is good, and can protect herself. I would at least play her over decree.

[4eak]

So what if we made the board (almost) all spells to combat decks, thus making their enchantment/artifact removal that they sided in useless?

Are you suggesting we side out our artifacts/enchantments for g2/3?

Dedicated control decks revolve around enchantments and artifacts, and there isn't much we can do to change it. It might be better to use cards like Argivian Find/Replenish to answer their hate than it would be to try and play the deck without cards like Moat, Runed Halo (which against several decks becomes even better in G2/G3), Scepter/Chant, and our Painter/Servant combo.

As for Elspeth, my testing has been mixed on that card. I think Decree might just be stronger because it cycles and can be played at many more stages of the game (including under Standstill). You can't tutor for either, so you have to run at least 2, if not 3, to make them even worth including. I'd rather have multiple Decrees than Elspeth's.




peace,
4eak

[Joe_C]

Sooooo, I am only a few cards away from playing this deck. Is there anyone who plays this deck often enough to give me a good core deck to work off of? I have the general idea in my head and have read through a ton of the posts here. Just curious about boarding strategies mostly and what kind of SB's people are running.....

Any information is appreciated

[DeathScythe]

Sooooo, I am only a few cards away from playing this deck. Is there anyone who plays this deck often enough to give me a good core deck to work off of? I have the general idea in my head and have read through a ton of the posts here. Just curious about boarding strategies mostly and what kind of SB's people are running.....

Any information is appreciated


I've been playing the deck for a few months now and entered 2 tournaments (went 5-1-2 (swiss no T8) and a poor 3-2-2), I feel like the list IBA made is pretty much the best list you can get. Only addition I would make is to find a 1-off slot of aura of silence so you have a tutorable destroy effect vs cards like counterbalance where oblivion ring just doesn't do the job well enough.

If you want sb strageties just pm me with the MU and I'll respond to you when I got the time

-DS

[Zach Tartell]

Sooooo, I am only a few cards away from playing this deck. Is there anyone who plays this deck often enough to give me a good core deck to work off of? I have the general idea in my head and have read through a ton of the posts here. Just curious about boarding strategies mostly and what kind of SB's people are running.....

Any information is appreciated

The report found here (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12406) has a pretty good looking list. And some pretty good game play.

You must:

Play one Moat (and zero humility)
Shell out for the Painter/Grindstone combo
Probably play more land than is in that list. 23 + 3 Dragon felt right last time.
Play all them Chants and such.


That's a pretty good place to start.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

In a time where krosan grip is the most common SB card i think it is the wrong way to go with scepter/chant combo. IMO Scepter is just, slow situational and if it gets destroyed you loose 2 cards. Not so good.

Sure you might steal some games with a chant lock but so you will do with Moat.
So screw the scepter/chant lock and play painter grindstone that actually wins games!

[Zach Tartell]

In a time where krosan grip is the most common SB card i think it is the wrong way to go with scepter/chant combo. IMO Scepter is just, slow situational and if it gets destroyed you loose 2 cards. Not so good.

Sure you might steal some games with a chant lock but so you will do with Moat.
So screw the scepter/chant lock and play painter grindstone that actually wins games!



18 Snow-Covered plains
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Sensei's Diving Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Eternal Dragon
3 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
Sideboard:
3 Ray of Distortion
2 Story Circle
2 Decree of Justice
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Sacred Ground
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of the Prodeginitadlafjaldkfjq;wlnma;lkvja;dlsfkja;
1 Abeyance
1 Rule of Law
1 Hanna's Custody (this was TERRIBLE. Don't waste your two dollars one one)


COUGHCOUGHLEARNTOFUCKINGREADSIRCOUGHCOUGH


Seriously, I'm not sure what you were trying to say, as I play both of the cards that you mentioned. Also, they're both equally vulnerable to Krosan Grip, so I don't understand why one is better than the other. Want to do some reading and try that again?

[Joe_C]

here is the list I want to start with... feel free to call me retarded:

4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow Covered Plains

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Eternal Dragon
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orims Chant
2 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Argivian Find

Sb:

1 Relic
2 Story Circle
1 Rule of Law
1 Sacred Ground
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Decree of Justice
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ray of Distortion
1 Jester's Cap
1 Aura of Silence
1 Argivian Find

Elspeth just seems too good not to run. Either they are going to counter it(if you dont have chant/ abeyance backup) or they are more than likely going to lose to it. Moat/ elspeth is huge. Only running 2 abeyance may be questionable. Questions I would like answered:

1. What matchups would you want decree to come in on?
2. Is Elspeth as hot as it has seemed to me in my testing? She flat out wins me games at times.
3. Argivian find:useful? or a wasted slot? Seems pimp when your stuff gets countered or destroyed.
4. What decks give this a run for its money? Which are cakewalks?

[4eak]

@ Joe_C

Here is my deck:


Lands: 23
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
19 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

Win-Conditions: 7
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [TE] Grindstone

Lock Pieces: 4
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [LG] Moat
1 [10E] Story Circle

Creature Answers: 7
3 [8E] Wrath of God
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares

Stack Answers: 6
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [WL] Abeyance

Versatile Answers: 5
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
2 [SHM] Runed Halo

Card Quality: 8
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top


Sideboard: 15
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 3 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring


From this, I think the primary shell, which would be cards I would refuse to remove would be:

Core: 43
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
1 [LG] Moat
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

I want to put Painter/Grindstone on that list, but there are certainly matches where I would prefer other win-cons. The above is the bare minimum, heart and soul of the deck.

Fill it how you choose, but several cards deserve more redundancy, as you'll see in the lists found in this thread.


@ HdH_Cthulhu

There are several matchups, especially games 1's, where your best hope of winning is on the back of Scepter/Chant lock. Chant-Lock comes out of nowhere, and is commonly an "oops, I win".

Orim's Chant must be in this deck even if Scepter isn't. You desperately need Chant to beat heavy permission, protect your Painter combo, and answer other combo decks. The deck is unplayable without Orim's Chant in the main. If you are running Orim's Chant, and you have e-tutor, it really doesn't seem like a difficult choice to play 1-2 scepters.

I'd like to emphasize that this deck Tops all day long, letting you see into the future state of the game, sifting through the deck, usually working inevitably towards silverbullet softlocks. End step E-Tutor is the nightmare play for your opponent, and they often cannot answer it because you've waited for just the right time.

If Chantlock doesn't win you the game outright, it will usually push you way, way ahead in card and tempo advantage. Games are often won on the back of generating advantage under chantlock, even when a topdecked Grip will eventually end it.

Krosan Grip is definitely a problem. But, it isn't one that can really be solved. Grip is not a reason to not play Scepter though. Grip in combination with other cards is a reason to not play the deck, perhaps.






peace,
4eak

[swarm187]

I've been playing a list similar to this for a few weeks now, without knowing there was a thread for it. The posts here have really helped me, so thanks to all of you that have put your two cents in.

My question is this: Is the snow engine really that good?
My second question is: Has anyone tried splashing blue?

My build, admittedly before reading this thread, doesn't run snow draw and is W/u, abusing cards like Meddling Mage and Hindering Light, while opening up possibilities with cards like Brainstorm, Teferi, Counterbalance, Daze, etc.

IMO, if you're going to try to get Scepter/Chant lock, you might as well try to squeeze Teferi in for the firm lock. It is slow, a fact that has been a big stumbling block for me, but when it goes online it's GG.
I also think Sensei's Divining Top is great, but with Counterbalance it's almost unstoppable. In the majority of the lists posted here, WW is prevelant in a lot of spells. Getting WW and UU for Counterbalance is going to be really tough on the manabase, so I understand if people are apprehensive about the splash.

I do think it warrants some consideration though.

Thanks again for the well-thoughout posts here, I'll be building the mono-white version later today.

[DeathScythe]

My question is this: Is the snow engine really that good?

My first thought when I first saw it, when I first used it I went WTFOMGBBQBOOB. Reason for this is because when you got it active you A don't miss a land drop, B Draw shitloads of business spells without seeing a top with 3 lands and C rampage through you're deck kicking ass with cardadvantage.
When I entered my first tournament with quinn I got laughed at for playing it, after the tournament everybody who sat next to me (or watched a match) went OMGBBQBIGBOOB at the snow engine and giggled at ray of distortion eating counterbalance all day long.
Try the engine and experience the WTF.



My second question is: Has anyone tried splashing blue?

What would that give us?
Teferi, triple blue, yugh. Studidly good synergie with scepter/chant but not enough with the rest (or at least not enough)
Counterspells. Why? we got STP, O-Ring, runed halo to deal with permanents (and halo for non-permanents) and chant + abeyance for protection.
-Daze, bouncing land is baaaaaaaaaaaaad
-Force, not enough blue
-Forbid, in some way like this one if you got a running snow engine but prefer chants nontheless
Brainstorm, we don't play fetch.

Also if you ant to splash blue you will have to edit the manabase.
Tundra + fetch will kill the snowengine
snow covered island might get you screwed if you open UU when you need WW
Snow covered dual, comes into play tapped, yugh, and opens you up for wasteland

So far I don't think blue will add that much to the deck

[Skeggi]

My question is this: Is the snow engine really that good?
I guess you can also use Sindbad (http://magiccards.info/an/en/27.html) and have a blue splash...

My second question is: Has anyone tried splashing blue?
I guess you can also use Sindbad (http://magiccards.info/an/en/27.html) and have a blue splash...


Also if you ant to splash blue you will have to edit the manabase.
Tundra + fetch will kill the snowengine
snow covered island might get you screwed if you open UU when you need WW
Snow covered dual, comes into play tapped, yugh, and opens you up for wasteland
Or... you use Sindbad (http://magiccards.info/an/en/27.html).

... just a thought.

[4eak]

@ swarm187


My question is this: Is the snow engine really that good?

The Snow Engine (Top + Snowlands) is insane. It is better than Fact or Fiction (next to blasphemy, I know). In fact, the Snow Engine is most akin to Library of Alexandria (not as powerful, but similar).

In practice, you'll see that the snow engine allows you to have the most consistent set of consecutive land drops in competitive magic. Card advantage is straight card advantage, whether it be land or spell. This deck is always land hungry, so drawing a land is generally a quality line of play in the first place.

One way of thinking about it is that control decks spend more mana playing spells/abilities than other decks (roughly efficient ones) per game. Control decks create opportunities to re-use their mana-base more effectively. Part of abusing that long-term mana resource is having to control tools to make the game last long, but the other part is having the card draw engine which neatly fills the unused gaps of mana available on a given turn.

The Snow Engine fills the niche. The Snow engine allows you to maximize your mana supply each turn, and so your resources are rarely wasted.



My second question is: Has anyone tried splashing blue?

Yes.

I have several U/W control variants that I test. I have two working versions of U/W Snow-Control (which I was going to post in the U/W thread in a bit).

Your main problem with the Blue splash is that if you want FoW, then you must run enough blue cards. If you are only splashing minimally, you don't get FoW. You do however get Sensei's Divining Top's best friend: Counterbalance.


IMO, if you're going to try to get Scepter/Chant lock, you might as well try to squeeze Teferi in for the firm lock.

Teferi is random. Chant-lock is quickly assembled, and you have no wasted space in your deck. Have a chant sitting and doing nothing, and there is an opening to drop scepter? Then, alright, tutor that badboy up and drop the lock. Teferi can't do that.


@ DeathScythe


So far I don't think blue will add that much to the deck

I agree. Blue probably isn't worth it if you intend to focus on the aims of this Snow Parfait deck. However, if you take an MUC deck, and adjust it with Quinn in mind, you have a very different animal. It isn't landstill, and it has one of the heaviest control roles I've ever seen.

The primary reason to go blue is Counterbalance. We already run top, and we expect long term games. Counterbalance improves several matchups: it drop kicks loam, storm, burn, and aggro-control (if resolved).

Quick examples of variants that have been pretty decent for us:

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
15 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
3 [A] Tundra
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [REW] Powder Keg
1 [TE] Capsize
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

The above deck is MUC with with a white splash and Quinn's snow engine. MUC doesn't play Counterbalance, but a white splash can afford MUC the chance to play it. The deck below plays more like Quinn. It keeps the solid lockpieces in Moat/Scepter and adds Back to Basics/Shackles/Counterbalance. I prefer the above myself. This is about how far we have to bend Quinn to play blue.


// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
7 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
11 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [US] Back to Basics
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

The primary issue is that if you can bend the mana-base to get the UU for counterbalance, then you really don't have a good reason not to play Counterspell and FoW as well. Permission is definitely powerful. It can't make its way into Quinn very easily though (or rather, we might not be able to even call the deck Quinn after we add blue).






peace,
4eak

[Joe_C]

@ swarm187



The Snow Engine (Top + Snowlands) is insane. It is better than Fact or Fiction (next to blasphemy, I know). In fact, the Snow Engine is most akin to Library of Alexandria (not as powerful, but similar).

In practice, you'll see that the snow engine allows you to have the most consistent set of consecutive land drops in competitive magic. Card advantage is straight card advantage, whether it be land or spell. This deck is always land hungry, so drawing a land is generally a quality line of play in the first place.

One way of thinking about it is that control decks spend more mana playing spells/abilities than other decks (roughly efficient ones) per game. Control decks create opportunities to re-use their mana-base more effectively. Part of abusing that long-term mana resource is having to control tools to make the game last long, but the other part is having the card draw engine which neatly fills the unused gaps of mana available on a given turn.

The Snow Engine fills the niche. The Snow engine allows you to maximize your mana supply each turn, and so your resources are rarely wasted.




Yes.

I have several U/W control variants that I test. I have two working versions of U/W Snow-Control (which I was going to post in the U/W thread in a bit).

Your main problem with the Blue splash is that if you want FoW, then you must run enough blue cards. If you are only splashing minimally, you don't get FoW. You do however get Sensei's Divining Top's best friend: Counterbalance.



Teferi is random. Chant-lock is quickly assembled, and you have no wasted space in your deck. Have a chant sitting and doing nothing, and there is an opening to drop scepter? Then, alright, tutor that badboy up and drop the lock. Teferi can't do that.


@ DeathScythe



I agree. Blue probably isn't worth it if you intend to focus on the aims of this Snow Parfait deck. However, if you take an MUC deck, and adjust it with Quinn in mind, you have a very different animal. It isn't landstill, and it has one of the heaviest control roles I've ever seen.

The primary reason to go blue is Counterbalance. We already run top, and we expect long term games. Counterbalance improves several matchups: it drop kicks loam, storm, burn, and aggro-control (if resolved).

Quick examples of variants that have been pretty decent for us:

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
15 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
3 [A] Tundra
3 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
4 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [REW] Powder Keg
1 [TE] Capsize
2 [SC] Decree of Justice

The above deck is MUC with with a white splash and Quinn's snow engine. MUC doesn't play Counterbalance, but a white splash can afford MUC the chance to play it. The deck below plays more like Quinn. It keeps the solid lockpieces in Moat/Scepter and adds Back to Basics/Shackles/Counterbalance. I prefer the above myself. This is about how far we have to bend Quinn to play blue.


// Lands
1 [A] Tundra
7 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
11 [CS] Snow-Covered Island
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
1 [MR] Isochron Scepter
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
3 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [US] Back to Basics
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

The primary issue is that if you can bend the mana-base to get the UU for counterbalance, then you really don't have a good reason not to play Counterspell and FoW as well. Permission is definitely powerful. It can't make its way into Quinn very easily though (or rather, we might not be able to even call the deck Quinn after we add blue).






peace,
4eak

both of those builds seem god-awful slow. Quinn needs to run a combo win like painter/grindstone. Ive made room to run a sacred mesa in my build. So my maindecked win cons are 2 Elspeth, 3 Eternal Dragon, 1 Sacred Mesa, 2 Painter, 2 Grindstone. Seems like plenty

[4eak]

@ Joe_C

The point of that portion of my post was to express what happens when Quinn tries to add blue.


both of those builds seem god-awful slow.

Yes. Those control decks are slow. In practice, the games are about as extensive as most Quinn games (which can be exceedingly long in many circumstances as well). Keep in mind:

a.) Shackles is better than you seem to realize. Half the time, you don't even need to play a win condition besides shackles.
b.) Playing Counterbalance means we don't care nearly as much about playing a slower game.
c.) Permission adds an enormous amount of universal defense that can often be worth a slower clock.


Quinn needs to run a combo win like painter/grindstone.

I'm not sure what you hoped to accomplish in your statement. I agree that MWC Quinn should be running Painter/Grindstone. When you add blue, that changes.

Quite of few of the reasons Quinn "needs" to run Painter/Grindstone are solved by playing a permission-shell. The above decks aren't better with Painter/Grindstone in our testing (we had to replace them to find that out).


I've made room to run a sacred mesa in my build. So my maindecked win cons are 2 Elspeth, 3 Eternal Dragon, 1 Sacred Mesa, 2 Painter, 2 Grindstone. Seems like plenty

Again, your reply has little to do with what I posted. You don't run permission. If you aren't meaning to talk about splashing blue in Quinn, and you just want to talk about your win-cons, I'll be happy to do that though.

I don't like Elspeth because it can't be tutored and is often too conditional to be viable. The good part about the card is that it is a fantastic engine, both defensively and offensively. I have found that the added offense isn't necessary (because Painter/Grindstone is usually easier to assemble, protect, and more effective at winning in compressed spaces of time), and the defensive aspects of the card aren't as good as just plain Decree of Justice (which interacts just fine with Moat if you want it to) or pure defensive options. Elspeth can be difficult to protect, and lacks synergy with cards like Runed Halo and Story Circle.








peace,
4eak

[swarm187]

Joe C: I understand you point completely. In my experience though, control decks like MWC Quinn have no problem drawing the game out longer. On the contrary, your chances of winning increase the longer the game goes on.

So yes, there is such a thing as being too slow but I don't think splashing blue for Counterbalance and perhaps another few cards would slow the deck down dramatically.

In my limited testing, I've found Eternal Dragon tough to cast as a win condition. Has anyone else run into this problem? I understand that Painter/Grindstone is the primary win con here, but having a 5/5 flyer on the board is usually not a bad thing either.
I was thinking of trying out Exalted Angel in here, has anyone else used her? I understand the cycling power of Eternal Dragon makes it a must in this deck, I was just wondering if anyone had seen success/failure with Exalted Angel.

I was also thinking of throwing in 2- Karmic Guides to use with Eternal Dragon. I know she costs a lot, but you could get the Dragon and the Guide into play for the same cost as just returning the Dragon to your hand. I'm not sure if that is just wishful thinking, but I'm going to try it out.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I haven't been playing Legacy much, and thus haven't been commenting, but I'm going to add something based on my experience.

The only thing you need to worry about with Quinn is Counter-Top, Chalice, and to a lesser extent Deed. In straight up strengths and weaknesses, the deck tends to demolish most other strategies. It's biggest vulnerabilities are the low casting curve and reliance on several key permanents, although mostly the first one.

If you're going to majorly overhaul the list for any reason other than tackling this issue, I don't see the point. Counterbalance-Top on your own end actually doesn't help you that much; it doesn't do much that Chant-Scepter doesn't do, and comes down too late to stop Chalice or CB on the opponent's side, usually.

A straight up MUC splashing white would be a different deck entirely; that list might be better off in a Landstill thread.

Swarm187, it honestly sounds like you're throwing out ideas without having tested a list that was very heavily refined by several people after quite a lot of playtesting. I'm not saying that you have to have played the list thoroughly in order to comment; I hate that kind of logic myself. But actually piloting the list on MWS a few times might reassure some of your doubts.

[Loxodon Baileyarch]

If top got banned, wouldn't this deck just get the shocker?

[4eak]

@ swarm187


In my limited testing, I've found Eternal Dragon tough to cast as a win condition. Has anyone else run into this problem? I understand that Painter/Grindstone is the primary win con here, but having a 5/5 flyer on the board is usually not a bad thing either...I was thinking of trying out Exalted Angel in here, has anyone else used her?... I was also thinking of throwing in 2- Karmic Guides to use with Eternal Dragon.

Quinn usually doesn't actually win the game until it has 10 land in play. If you have to happen to win earlier, then you combo'd because the coast was clear and you had the pieces to do it (or because sometimes you are forced to do it) or your opponent conceded off the back of Chantlock, Moat, or Story Circle. Usually you just get a giant snowball of advantage rollling and win when you know there is no way your opponent could possibly answer you.

I don't think Dragon is that slow. The Dragon-win is about inevitability with mana-smoothing and the option of card advantage built inside. The Dragon win is the back-up win condition for this deck. You use it because you need to draw out your opponent's non-StP control cards, or because tutoring up and protecting another win condition isn't the best option or isn't even possible at all.

Exalted Angel and Karmic Guide should prove completely unnecessary when you have plenty of practice with the deck.

One of the problems for a control deck is that win-con's are generally dead in your hand, acting as virtual card disadvantage, for a good portion of the game. That problem can be mitigated by using win-con's with multiple roles/recursion.

Eternal Dragon's plainscycling, shuffle effect for top, recursive card advantage, and ability to see play over and over makes it difficult to answer, at times a defensive tool, and quite versatile all around.

Stick to Dragon and Painter's Combo, and when choosing whether or not to play a third win condition, ask yourself what real weakness of the deck it improves.


@ TheInfamousBearAssassin

A surprising number of opponent's have never even tested against Quinn (or may not even know the decklist), and that is a huge information advantage. Countless numbers are caught off guard by Chantlock, moat, and Painter's combo; they are often unprepared for how much the game can change in a single turn when playing against this deck.

Against experienced opponents, I don't think Quinn honestly "demolishes" most decks though. When opponents learn to play properly against Quinn (which many don't), and we have fewer opponent-mistakes to capitalize upon, the games are much closer. It is in these matches that I've often wished I was playing some form of permission.

As for the experiments with going blue, I'm not saying they are a success at all. I was primarily answering a question about what it takes for Quinn to go blue. I prefer staying MWC myself. However, I find permission is stronger than you suggest. In many of those cases where we cry out for 'Chantlock', permission handles it much easier.

History has given us good reason to at least try permission inside Quinn, even if we don't immediately see benefits before we experiment. Admittedly, I don't think permission is really worth the losses in the white control cards that are removed to play blue. For now, I agree; the deck doesn't need an overhaul--it answers the metagame very well (the point of control). I certainly consider it one of the best decks in the format the way it is.


The only thing you need to worry about with Quinn is Counter-Top, Chalice, and to a lesser extent Deed

These are definitely very dangerous for Quinn, but I think there are other cards that are pretty bad as well. I have found Krosan Grip to be the most common card I face, and it is usually quite effective. We don't fold to Grip/DE, but it is certainly no small problem for the parfait-silverbullet strategy of Quinn.

Loam (and Raven's Crime makes it even worse), all forms of DE, heavy burn, talented storm players (rare indeed), Ichorid, and pseudo-combos inside a permission shell (aggro control can be this), Armaggedon and friends (DD/etc.), and any deck that has a serious t1 and 2 play can pose problems (because our answers aren't universal like permission). These issues are amplified in game 1 where you may not know what you face.


Counterbalance-Top on your own end actually doesn't help you that much; it doesn't do much that Chant-Scepter doesn't do, and comes down too late to stop Chalice or CB on the opponent's side, usually.

Decks that would play Counterbalance generally have other blue answers (e.g. FoW) to Chalice or CB as well. CB-Top is an amazingly softlock which is difficult to substitute, and besides the mana-base, Quinn is only missing CB to complete the combo. I definitely think we should be slower to dismiss the general defense provided by permission.

Chantlock is often the "goto" answer for cards and strategies that otherwise beat the rest of our deck. Chantlock can't always be assembled though. Permission buys time to reach the point where you can reach the softlock in cases where pure white control cards might not.

Counterbalance protects itself, and CB/Top alone wins countless games against the format. CB/Top is good enough that we should certainly consider throwing it in most control decks in the same way we might consider throwing Goyf in all decks.

I'm not saying it belongs in Quinn in the end, but I am saying that there are certainly many matches where I prefer to be playing some permission than pure white.


@ Loxodon Baileyarch


If top got banned, wouldn't this deck just get the shocker?

The Snow engine (which alongside E-tutor is what makes this deck tick) would die, and we'd move to older versions of MWC which aren't as good. You often don't keep hands without Top or Tutor for a reason: you can't afford not to have top in play unless you are holding the keys to the kingdom with a known silverbullet in hand.






peace,
4eak

[Joe_C]

has anyone had success running Elspeth in their list? Ive been testing with her in there, I know she is good, just not sure if the 2 I run should be snow covered land #19 and 1 Story Circle maindecked.

[NiRVeS]

I played the Quinn-deck yesterday at a local tournament in Antwerp (51 players) and finished 4-2-0 to a 16th place. I should've went 5-1-0 in fact but played bad in my second round against a Zoo-deck (game one I can stall the game, get to enlightened tutor TWICE but for some reason fail to find the Story Circle I put maindeck specifically for this mathup. So yeah, I deserved to die to his burnspells there). My matchups were:

R1: Rock (lost, this is a horrible mu imho)
R2: Zoo with lotta burn (lost, due to my own stupid misplays)
R3: Bye
R4: UBWG Landstill (w/ deeds, extirpates and nantuko monastery's, won)
R5: Threshold (won)
R6: Eva Green (won, with a little luck thanks to a fast painter/stone in G2 and a mana-flooded opponent in G3)

Anyway, this is what I played:

19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Decree of Justice
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
1 Humility
1 Story Circle
3 Wrath of God

For reference, the changes I made from the decklist in the OP are:
- 1 Eternal Dragon
- 1 Oblivion Ring
- 1 Moat
+ 1 Decree of Justice
+ 1 Story Circle
+ 1 Humility
+ 1 Snow-covered Plains

Some thoughts on the maindeck changes:
- I decided I would rather play 23 lands in a 61-card deck than 22 in a 60-carder, and didn't want to cut anything.
- The switch from Moat to Humility was due to card-availability.
- I'm not sure whether the maindeck decree should be a third eternal dragon or not. I liked the decree but all in all I think the shuffle/landthinning is more important. I used the decree twice: once it was answered by an explosives and in the other match it didn't really matter because I won by painter/stone.
- I liked the maindeck story circle a lot, I would play it over the 3rd O-Ring any day.
- I would like to swap one Snow Plain for a Mistveil Plains. The mistveil can be tutored for with Dragon and it allows you to return countered/destroyed grindstones/servants/mesa's to your deck for recursion with enlightened tutor. When playing a long drawn-out game against Threshold during round 3 (when I had a bye) I found myself running out of win-conditions (2 plowed dragons, explosives to deal with decree-tokens and countered grindstones) and this card would prevent that from happening. Because I would only play one, the increased vulnerability to Wasteland doens't seem all that relevant to me (Sheets are more important anyway).
- And just to make this clear: Runed Halo is stupid good.

I rebuilt the sideboard completely, this is what I brought:

1 Ghostly Prison
3 Martyr of Sands
2 Porphyry Nodes
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Abolish
3 Ethersworn Canonist

- The Porphyry Nodes look cool but although I boarded them in a lot I haven't drawn them once, so I couldn't tell you whether they are a good choice or not.
- I didn't face dredge, elves or goblins so I didn't board the Prison once. I think it is a fine sideboardcard to have though.
- The Martyr's are staying, they can win quite some time against burn/zoo and can remove dredge's bridges. They don't look to shabby against storm-combo either.
- Relic/Crypt: obvious.
- Abolish: I choose Abolish over Ray of Distortion because it allowed me to answer a fast dreadnaught or a scepter from burn more quickly. However, Ray seems the better choice in hindsight.
- Canonist: haven't been able to put him to good use (no storm, dredge or elves) although I boarded him in against zoo/burn - at least they burn him first before they continue going for your face, so he's sort of a bad healing salve there. I would proberably cut one in the future, he IS tutorable after all.

One thing I definately want to try is adding Chalice to the Void to the sideboard (cutting one canonist and maybe the nodes as well). Besides being quite strong against ANT, putting this baby down on one seems like a devastating play against Zoo and burn: Wild Nacatl/Kird Ape/Fanatic/Lavamancer/Bolt/Chain are all disabled. It doesn't shut off Chant (when kickered, its CMC is two) but it does counters Grindstone, top and StP (although top should come down before Chalice anyway) so I'm not 100% sure. Any thoughts on this?

As far as Elspeth goes, I thought about putting one in the sideboard but eventually decided against it. Thing is, I don't think it is correct to run a win condition which
1) Can't be tutored for with enlightened tutor (painter/stone, mesa)
2) Can be countered easily (Dragon is recurrable, cycled DoJ).
I do think Elspeth is a very good card though, but you would proberly like having multiple copies of her in your deck (to get her in play reliably) and I can't see how you can find the space for that without cutting essential lock pieces or other, more reliable, win conditions.

Cheers and have fun neutering goyfs with Halo's!

Tom

[heroicraptor]

It doesn't shut off Chant (when kickered, its CMC is two)

Incorrect. Nothing can change a card's CMC. Kicker counts in regards to Trinisphere because trini asks how much mana was spent, CotV asks what the CMC is (all the mana symbols in the upper left corner of a card added together).

[e=mc^2]

Incorrect. Nothing can change a card's CMC. Kicker counts in regards to Trinisphere because trini asks how much mana was spent, CotV asks what the CMC is (all the mana symbols in the upper left corner of a card added together).

If that is true than how does EE get around Counterbalence? I believe on the stack a spell's CMC is how much mana was spent for it. However, this may be true for x spells and not kicker,

[Unknown2]

x spells, while on the stack are the cc of whatever X equals, while in play, however, X=0.

Kicker cost is just an added, optional cost, it is not part of the casting cost and thus, does not add to it's CC on the stack or in play.

[J.V.]

However, this may be true for x spells and not kicker,

That...

[Joe_C]

If that is true than how does EE get around Counterbalence? I believe on the stack a spell's CMC is how much mana was spent for it. However, this may be true for x spells and not kicker,

EE can also be cast for more than the amount of counters you intend to have in it. if you spend :r: :r: :r: :w: :w: you get a 5 casting cost EE that has 2 counters on it when it hits play.

Well, I have settled on a list and my Moat is in the mail! Yay!!! Here is what I intend to play at a tourney in a few weeks:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Story Circle
3 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight- Errant

SB:
2 Story Circle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
4 Ray of Distortion(counterbalance decks are rampant in my meta)
2 Decree of Justice
1 Rule of Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence

This seems to be really working for me in the testing I have done

[Valtrix]

I like the list, that's close to what I'd play. Let me know how the Elspeths do. I've always wanted some more testing with her.

Also, why rule of law over canonist? I feel that against combo canonist can come down faster, not get hit by duress, and actually provides a way for you to put a little pressure on combo until they can get an answer. I mean honestly, I feel that it's doing close to the same thing for you, and as far as combo goes they have the same answers once in play, but less when it's in your hand.

Also, what's the reasoning for the extra o-ring and halo in the board? When would you want to increase the number of those cards in your deck versus having something that would be more useful against more specific types of decks?

[Black Mass]

Why play extra combo answers while we already play 7 chant effects + runed halo, seems like protection enough. The only thing we need to fear is the infamous turn 1.
I'd find better use for sideboardspace.

Just my 2 cents...

[HdH_Cthulhu]

COUGHCOUGHLEARNTOFUCKINGREADSIRCOUGHCOUGH


Seriously, I'm not sure what you were trying to say, as I play both of the cards that you mentioned. Also, they're both equally vulnerable to Krosan Grip, so I don't understand why one is better than the other. Want to do some reading and try that again?

Hey dont bash my reading skillz! If they grip your moat you loose 1 card. If they grip Scepter, how much cards do you loose?
Here is a great articel about Tempo and Card Advantage.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=3690

@4eak:

Thx for make the resoning about Scepter clearer for me.

[4eak]

@ NiRVeS

Thanks for the report. I've found several of the comments insightful and/or interesting.


23 lands in a 61-card deck

Very few deck designs could allow you play a 61 card deck in principle. Parfait is one of the few that really doesn't care nearly because of how the draw/filtering engine is designed. I will be testing your idea.


The switch from Moat to Humility was due to card-availability.

I hear ya; Moat is fucking expensive. I think you are playing a completely different deck without moat though. That card is retardedly awesome. I think Moat is the number one reason to play this deck.

I also think Humility neuters Painter Combo too much, preventing you from making certain relevant plays that Moat-based Parfait would have made. I recognize Humility rocks hard (and actually is pretty amazing alongside moat too), but I really suggest picking up Moat (which I hypocritically don't own myself, but our tournies are proxied for us).

Playtest with it, you'll see why it is worth the pricetag for this deck.


I'm not sure whether the maindeck decree should be a third eternal dragon or not.

Decree has been a strong sideboard card for me.


I liked the maindeck story circle a lot, I would play it over the 3rd O-Ring any day.

I think removing a Runed Halo is a better choice than O-ring. Story Circle is much more similar in role to Halo, and frankly, I find myself needing O-ring against Chalice/CB too often.


I would like to swap one Snow Plain for a Mistveil Plains.

Testing right now. It can be a very good card, and it lets you drop Painter's combo and singletons with less caution. This is a very powerful effect. This is tutorable and reusable Argivian Find (not exactly, but similar function).


The Porphyry Nodes look cool but although I boarded them in a lot I haven't drawn them once, so I couldn't tell you whether they are a good choice or not.

I haven't liked them, and I've much preferred to use the sideboard space for cards that have more impact on some of our more difficult matches. It is too easy to play around Nodes, but it also not as necessary for a deck that has such a strong aggro match.


One thing I definately want to try is adding Chalice to the Void to the sideboard

Chalice seems like a bad plan. We just can't break the symmetry of the card. In fact, Chalice is one of the strongest cards against our deck. Think about the cards you lose to Chalice@1 (almost all of them absolutely necessary in our matches where Chalice would be useful).


@ Valtrix


Also, what's the reasoning for the extra o-ring and halo in the board? When would you want to increase the number of those cards in your deck versus having something that would be more useful against more specific types of decks?

If you go too specific has its own problems too. O-Ring and Halo remain relevant against lots of aspects of lots of decks. Our redundancy becomes even more important as people side against us. Silver-bullet strategies are innately weaker in games 2 and 3 for our deck.

When we board them in:

O-Ring against Chalice and CB decks.
Halo against very, very low threat count decks: Factory/Goyf/Stalker/Deeznoughtz/Tendrils.






peace,
4eak

[Joe_C]

I like the list, that's close to what I'd play. Let me know how the Elspeths do. I've always wanted some more testing with her.

Also, why rule of law over canonist?

Elspeth has been working well for me, and I feel comfortable with the arrangement of the deck so that I can run her as a 2 of.

You know, I forget that canonist exists as a card all the time. It is definitely an option, I have a rule of law in my possession so I guess thats why I am running that :wink:

Also, I understand the usefulness of decree of justice in the board as an extra win condition. But what matchups does it really shine in?

[NiRVeS]

@ NiRVeS
Thanks for the report. I've found several of the comments insightful and/or interesting.

You're welcome.


Moat is fucking expensive.

This. However, I have acces to a Moat via my playgroup so I might be able to use one in the future. All in all, Humility did ok for me and I liked the benefit of being able to shut down Confidents, but I certainly agree that Moat is the stronger card. As far as the painter-neutering goes, someone told me the combo would still work if the Painter came into play after the Humility (guess this is a layer-issue and I'm no expert at it), is this correct?


I think removing a Runed Halo is a better choice than O-ring. Story Circle is much more similar in role to Halo, and frankly, I find myself needing O-ring against Chalice/CB too often.

Most of the games I played, I found myself liking the Halo's more than the O-Rings. I mainly used the Rings as a tutor-target to answer counterbalances, whereas the Halo's proved pretty vital to slow down the opponent so I can stabilize. All in all, I think the 3 cards (halo/o-ring/circle) have a similar role (if not the way the execute it) and I liked things the way they were.


I haven't liked them, and I've much preferred to use the sideboard space for cards that have more impact on some of our more difficult matches. It is too easy to play around Nodes, but it also not as necessary for a deck that has such a strong aggro match.

Like I said, I still need to resolve my first Nodes so I couldn't tell you if they work for me or not. A friend of mine who helped me out in setting up a sideboard-plan proposed them for use against Zoo and Threshold decks, since he found Humility and WoG too slow. Not sure if I agree with that last bit though.

One thing I find striking is the fact that you find Aggro a very good matchup. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I think the matchup's not that awesome really. In my experience, I would need at least 2 pieces of removal (incl Halo) to stop them from taking you down to burn-range (anywhere under 12 life) with their creatures, and sometimes they just get there and there's little you can do about it. Also, burnspells are good against painter which means you're not really able to kill them until you get to the 7 mana required to play chant + painter + grindstone + activation (assuming you're not willing to expose your grindstone to tin-street hooligans and krosan grips neither).


Chalice seems like a bad plan. We just can't break the symmetry of the card. In fact, Chalice is one of the strongest cards against our deck. Think about the cards you lose to Chalice@1 (almost all of them absolutely necessary in our matches where Chalice would be useful).

First of all, my judgement in the previous post was partly based on my misinterpretation of how Chant and Chalice would interact. People rightly pointed out that things don't work that way, and the loss of Chant in addition to Grindstone and StP would mean that Chalice is indeed not a viable option.

Thanks for your constructive criticism, I'll keep you informed on my future experiences with the deck.

Ciao.

[DeathScythe]

someone told me the combo would still work if the Painter came into play after the Humility (guess this is a layer-issue and I'm no expert at it), is this correct?

nope he/she is wrong about this. Both are layer 5 effects, but as painter is dependand on the humility the humility will always go first. Making sure the painter doesn't get to paint the world black.
However, you do get to name a colour if you play a painter with a humility in play. It will just have no effect (yet).

[4eak]

@ NiRVeS


One thing I find striking is the fact that you find Aggro a very good matchup. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I think the matchup's not that awesome really.

Beating creature-based strategies, like aggro, is fundamentally one of the best reasons to play MWC.

You don't play Moat. As I said, it is almost as if you are playing an entirely different deck altogether.

Moat will single-handedly win you games, and if it doesn't win for you outright, then it puts you at such a severe advantage that the card avalanche you'll be drawing will bury your opponent.


In my experience, I would need at least 2 pieces of removal (incl Halo) to stop them from taking you down to burn-range (anywhere under 12 life) with their creatures, and sometimes they just get there and there's little you can do about it. Also, burnspells are good against painter which means you're not really able to kill them until you get to the 7 mana required to play chant + painter + grindstone + activation (assuming you're not willing to expose your grindstone to tin-street hooligans and krosan grips neither).

You have to admit, you are talking about a very specific aggro match: Sligh or Zoo. There are many aggro decks, or decks with a strong aggro component to them at the very least. Not all of them are burn heavy decks, and that is the sticking point. Most aggro decks should be getting fairly smashed by full blown Quinn (including Moat), otherwise you aren't playing correctly or you don't have all the necessary cards. That doesn't mean you're going to win them all, but I certainly expect MWC to be winning the lion's share of its matches against aggro decks.

(I would like to say that Humility is much better than nothing).

Against most aggro decks, ScepterChant and Moat are either gamebreakers or huge stalling powers, cards like Wrath and Runed Halo can amass a lot of tempo, and you have lots of 1-for-1's to buy time. Once you start generating card advantage, you'll bury them as they sit in topdeck mode and you quickly stack and draw your snowy deck.

Sligh and Zoo can be problematic because they run such a diverse number of threats, often making each of our tools less effective. Threat diversity is one of the reasons Runed Halo is not as good by the way.

Story Circle is almost always the first card I e-tutor for against a deck packing 12+ burn spells. You can stop the bleeding, control the ground with 1-for-1's until you can drop moat/wrath/chantlock, and once you live to the late game you'll have much better opportunities to get to that 7-mana combo.

I'll certainly admit that heavy red based aggro is the most difficult color of aggro for Quinn, but we still have a good shot against Sligh, Burn, Goblins, and Zoo in my experience. Story Circle in the main is essential for anyone who expects to meet decks like Sligh and Zoo.

Nodes is not the answer for which you are looking against Sligh and Zoo; you need Moat and CoP: Red in the side. Running 4 Enlightened Tutors has been an excellent choice as well.







peace,
4eak

[NiRVeS]

You have to admit, you are talking about a very specific aggro match: Sligh or Zoo. There are many aggro decks, or decks with a strong aggro component to them at the very least. Not all of them are burn heavy decks, and that is the sticking point. Most aggro decks should be getting fairly smashed by full blown Quinn (including Moat), otherwise you aren't playing correctly or you don't have all the necessary cards.
...
Sligh and Zoo can be problematic because they run such a diverse number of threats, often making each of our tools less effective. Threat diversity is one of the reasons Runed Halo is not as good too by the way.


These are exacly the decks I'm talking about indeed. You are correct to state that creature-based aggro is easier to handle which so many pieces of removal and X-for-1's in the deck.



Story Circle is almost always the first card I e-tutor for against a deck packing 12+ burn spells. You can stop the bleeding, control the ground with 1-for-1's until you can drop moat/wrath, and once you live to the late game you'll have much better opportunities to get to that 7-mana combo.

I'll certainly admit that heavy red based aggro is the most difficult color of aggro for Quinn, but we still have a good shot against Sligh, Burn, Goblins, and Zoo in my experience. Story Circle in the main is essential for anyone who expects to meet decks like Sligh and Zoo.


This is the fundamental mistake I made in my round two, ultimately marking the difference between top 8 (and sweet, sweet dual lands) and a 16th place. I now know better a will happily apply your advice in the future.



Nodes is not the answer for which you are looking against Sligh and Zoo; you need Moat and CoP: Red in the side. Running 4 Enlightened Tutors has been an excellent choice as well.


How about sphere of law? Seems pretty brutal as well.

[4eak]

@ NiRVeS


How about sphere of law? Seems pretty brutal as well.

Sphere of Law comes into play on turn 4. That is a little late against burn heavy aggro decks. We already have amazing turn 4 drops in Wrath of God and Moat (not for burn obviously, but good against Sligh/Zoo/Goblins).

I think CoP: Red is really the best answer. It comes into play early, and it has very minimal mana requirements for the early stage of the game. Really, you'll use CoP/Story Circle as a bluff card to timewalk, generally buying tons and tons of land drops. The earlier you can drop the softlock, the better.

Obviously Sphere is a true buffer with a lower long-term mana cost, and makes it so your opponent could only ping you. I think the long term advantages are much less necessary than the early game strength of CoP and Story Circle which provide protection at your most vulnerable stage of the game.

I've even used CoP: Red against Progenitus decks, lol.




peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I've been really eager to try Ivory Tower as an answer against burn decks and maybe Tendrils. I'm not sure if it's good, but it would be Hella old skool.

[DeathScythe]

If you want life gain I have the wierd feeling the white pulse from darksteel would be a nice suprise,

[Valtrix]

I think that the pulse is probably not worth it for us, since we can't tutor for it, have almost no draw, and don't want to devote many sideboard slots to it.

[Joe_C]

Im really conflicted with the Elspeth slots in my build. It seems like the deck doesnt really need her as a win con since she cant be tutored for, and topdecking her is only really good when you are ahead, she isnt strong enough on her own to swing games. Up for testing to my list -2 Elspeth, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Argivian Find. Change to SB= -1 Oblivion Ring +1 Seal of cleansing

What are the feelings on replenish in the SB? Bomb against control?

[4eak]

Ivory Tower

Ivory Tower has been mediocre. As a singleton, it must be tutored, and it really has to come into play very early in the game to buy time against burn/combo, else it is dead or winmore. If you are able to drop it t1 or usually on t2, you basically hold back on land drops and only drop your 8th card down each turn. Good combo and good burn hands can still deal the 27ish life you'd be lucky to have on turn 5. Ivory Tower just hasn't been the same answer as CoP or even Runed Halo in my testing.


Pulse of the Fields

You need to run 3-4x for them to have any meaning because you can't tutor for them. It does nothing against combo, and it isn't as powerful as you would initially think against Burn and Sligh. I've seen countless people burn themselves in response to Pulse to kill the card.

@ Joe_C


Up for testing to my list -2 Elspeth, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Argivian Find

Test a 4th Enlightened Tutor. Between the amount of times you'll blow your solo tutor for Sensei's Top, and the number of times we need to find a specific answer or silver bullet/softlock or win condition, you will rarely be sad to see multiples of the card, and you will almost always be extremely pleased to topdeck it.

Enlightened Tutor helps convert our raw card advantage into raw card quality. It's a pretty necessary part of the draw engine in Parfait, so it shouldn't be too difficult to justify a 4th for testing.




peace,
4eak

[Mono_Thematic]

Has a purely mill version of this deck ever been attempted.
Off the top of my head, something like this:

10 Plains
2 Mistveil Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Kor Haven

4 Mother of Runes
4 Devoted Caretaker

3 Runed Halo
3 O-Ring
2 Moat

4 StP
4 Orim's Chant
4 Silence (from M10)
4 Enlightened Tutor

3 Isocron Scepter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone

Perpetually curious,
-Mono

[NiRVeS]

Has a purely mill version of this deck ever been attempted.

The diversifaction of kill cards allows you to circumvent problem cards such as
- Pithing Needle on Grindstone
- Engineerded Explosives on 2
- Pernicious Deed
- Counterbalance/Top countering both parts of the combo pretty easily
- Krosan Grip
- Gaea's Blessing

Almost every deck in the format will have some of these cards mainboard and sideboard. Moreover, I have seldom needed more than 2 of each of the combo-pieces, since they are both eligible for tutoring, so you could spend those 4 slots on more answers if you ask me.

Personally, I think there are better shells to fit the Painter/Stone combo in if you want a pure combo-strategy, such as backing it up with CB/Top, FoW and Trinket Mage.

Don't try to think of this deck as a combo-deck, think of it as a silver-bullet control deck, with a combo kill once the game has already been locked and inevitablility built-in for when the combo-kill is somehow impossible to execute. Although you win a fair amount of games by just going for it and milling your opponent on turn 3, that's really just icing on the cake.

Also, the deck you proposed lacks the Snow/Top-engine, which means you lack a source of long-term cardadvantage. Should be easy to port it in though, just cut 2 stones en 2 painters for the tops and add snow lands + scrying sheets. I'm no big fan of the caretakers/mothers as well, I'd rather have my opponents creature-removal be dead cards than playing 8 pseudo-walls (which can easily be counterbalance-countered as well and die to your own WoG's).

I think most Quinn players will adapt Silence as soon as it comes out, although I personally like the cantrip from Abeyance when combined with Isochron Scepter. What do you guys think?

Anyway, although it probably looks as if I'm shooting down your idea pretty hard, thanks for contributing and keep posting your thoughts on this - any innovative take on this deck can help to push it to a higher level.

(Btw, I tested a few games against a Loam-deck yesterday and got trashed pretty hard - although I played pretty horrible I must admit. Any other players having issues with this matchup pre-board (didn't test SB, crypts and relic would probably help)? Main problems I faced were thoughtseize to break up combo-opportunities and wasteland-recursion shutting off my draw engine. I guess this is one of those situations where Sacred Ground could prove usefull, but is it really worth the SB-slots?)

Grtz, Tom

[Joe_C]

4eak: Thanks!. When I first picked up the deck and played around with it I was considering putting the 4th tutor in there, but favored Elspeth initially. I will be dropping the Elspeths and doing +1 tutor +1 Abeyance

[4eak]

@ NiRVeS


The diversifaction of kill cards allows you to circumvent problem cards

You answered Mono_Thematic's question well.

To someone more familiar with the deck (such as yourself), I'd argue, however, that a large amount of diversity isn't so much a necessity in a dedicated control deck.

I would like to use the Morphling argument, which is basically that our win condition itself needs to be circumventing disruption cards in a deck that can't afford many slots to win conditions. Eternal Dragon recursion and Painter/Grindstone's automatic win for 6 mana (which is easily protected with chant or abeyance for 1-2 more mana) does circumvent disruption. So far, Dragon and Painter's combo are the only necessary win conditions for the deck. Everything else hasn't been essential, even if it can improve certain matchups or be useful in a few other circumstances.


I think most Quinn players will adapt Silence as soon as it comes out, although I personally like the cantrip from Abeyance when combined with Isochron Scepter. What do you guys think?

You will find it discussed on page 16 of this thread.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6188&page=16


(Btw, I tested a few games against a Loam-deck yesterday and got trashed pretty hard - although I played pretty horrible I must admit. Any other players having issues with this matchup pre-board (didn't test SB, crypts and relic would probably help)? Main problems I faced were thoughtseize to break up combo-opportunities and wasteland-recursion shutting off my draw engine. I guess this is one of those situations where Sacred Ground could prove usefull, but is it really worth the SB-slots?)

Loam decks vary...a lot. The loam engine itself obviously is best answered through either GY hate or Chantlock, but the other half of the problem requires that we ask, "What is the loam engine fueling in our opponent's deck?". We are often required to answer loam decks on two fronts, both loam and the other aims of their deck.

Some basic principles:


Aim for Chantlock
Eternal Dragon recursion helps overcome card disadvantage, and our redundancy give us a chance to get back into the game.
Floating cards carefully with Top is very valuable, and that information advantage is an important part of defeating some of our most difficult matchups. Don't put valuable cards into your hand until the turn you need to cast them.
Drop Sheets very carefully against wasteland recursion, while you are certain to lose your sheet, you can create opportunities to get 1 and sometimes 2 uses out of it before you lose it.


Grip + Loam is usually too much for us, but it is still winnable.







peace,
4eak

[blaat]

(Btw, I tested a few games against a Loam-deck yesterday and got trashed pretty hard - although I played pretty horrible I must admit. Any other players having issues with this matchup pre-board (didn't test SB, crypts and relic would probably help)? Main problems I faced were thoughtseize to break up combo-opportunities and wasteland-recursion shutting off my draw engine. I guess this is one of those situations where Sacred Ground could prove usefull, but is it really worth the SB-slots?)

Grtz, Tom

If you're meta alows it, play 1 SB.
I can see it doing great against wasteland, sinkhole & armageddon to improve the matchup.
Normally I would say it's a bit "meh" this card, since we only run 4 non-basics, but my meta has a lot of sinkhole/wasteland decks running.

Somewhere back in this thread ppl tried to bring blue in this deck for permission.
This made me playtest mana tithe and it works great!
+ surprise factor: opponents did not expect this.
+ winning counterwars: bye bye FOW/daze (cardadvantage!)
- late game it's crappy, but you can top it away
- opponents can play around it, so prolly the first card to side out?

Overall, it needs a lot of testing before I really want to play mana tithe in this deck.
Any ideas/suggestions/bash about this card?

[4eak]

Sacred Ground

I don't see a good reason not to play 2x minimum. Some of our worst matchups are LD decks. Top, Sheets and Dragon are good, but against decks with cards like Devastating Dreams, Pox, and the copious amounts of targeted LD, Sacred Ground seems like an obvious choice to curb a serious weakness.


Mana Tithe

The only deck that can play this card is Draw/Go, and even some dispute whether Force Spike is viable in the stack-based approach in the MUC thread.

We don't have B2B or Propaganda, we don't have additional effects like Mana Leak, and we don't have ways to pitch to FoW or shuffle with Brainstorm (Top is not even close to the same in this respect). The Mana Tithe effect only has a place in a deck that can't find a better early answer to a game winning threat (like Lackey). MWC has several other answers, including Chant and StP. We have no need for Mana Tithe.

I can't think of a card that this could replace either.




peace,
4eak

[Valtrix]

So, the sheets engine is obviously good, because we love that kind of land advantage. Because I'm cheap and don't have my second grindstone yet, I have belcher/horizons combo to try out, and the more I think about it the more I really seem to like horizons. With belcher it's not as great because snow land issues, but in general I feel like it might be a strong card. We don't always want to play that on turn 4, but really it seems like having (almost) no lands in our deck would be pretty powerful. I keep wanting more and more for cards that are x-for-1s, because sometimes I feel that the deck runs out of gas. I haven't done any testing, but I feel that horizons could be really good. If we get rid of lands, then we're drawing useful cards almost all the time, and I feel that it'd be hard for decks to deal with us when we get an answer pretty much every turn.

The biggest drawback is obviously if it gets destroyed, but is that really so much a drawback? Sure, you don't have your plains anymore, but you can work with 4 mana if it was absolutely necessary. Mesa is going to suck for you, but you still have chant lock, painter/stone over two turns. But you still have answers every turn, which I feel like would be huge. Plus, if they use removal on this, then they don't have removal for your other cards, and you can always wait for some extra land if you're worried about that.

So anyway, people's thoughts on horizons? I really want to get around to trying it, and I know it's been sideboarded a little bit, but I'm really curious to it's actual power level. I feel that it could be incredibly strong for us to create both card advantage and card quality simultaneously.

[4eak]

@ Valtrix

Horizons/Belcher is strictly worse, except when you were already winning. It requires a commitment that is unacceptable, the vulnerability to removal is pretty stunning. On top of that, it is very mana intensive, and difficult to play and protect in a single turn, which is half the reason to play Painter/Grindstone.

If you can play Horizons without worrying about removal, then you were probably already winning. On the other hand, if there is removal (which there usually is some form of it), then you can easily get screwed.

Let's not forget, Painter combos with more than just Grindstone, it combos with Story Circle.

You're only missing 1x Grindstone, right?

If so, I recommend doing this:

4x Enlightened Tutors
1-2x Painter's
1x Grindstone
1-2x Mistveil Plains
Perhaps even 4x Dragon

After testing, Mistveil Plains is most powerful at giving me outs to removal on my win conditions and getting back a countered/removed Moat. In your case, you can lose a Grindstone or Servant, and still be able to Mistveil Plains to try again later.




peace,
4eak

[Joe_C]

18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Story Circle
3 Wrath of God


SB:
2 Story Circle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ray of Distortion
2 Sacred Ground
1 Rule of Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
1 Replenish

This is where I am at at the moment. Seems to be working well enough. I have to say, a resolved natural order into Progentus is really problematic. Especially when they have k grip 2 turns in a row to nail your story circle/runed halo. The singleton replenish is there for those situations where all my shits been blown up..

[Valtrix]

My question was not about horizons/belcher at all. I know that it's strictly worse than painter/stone. My question was about horizons in general. I feel like as a 2-of it could be pretty powerful. I could reiterate what I said earlier, but I'll just leave that post to be looked at. I feel that you could create both card quality and advantage through it. And the thing is, you don't even have to get rid of all you lands if you're truly worry about that so much. Though I'd contest that you could still only have four mana and be fine. Its non-ideal, but if you're mostly drawing answer then that's good. Plus, if you have a dragon you can leave yourself a couple plains left in your deck to still get up to 7 for combo + protection if you're still that worried. I really don't think that the destruction of the horizons is going to be that horrible for you. Plus, if they do, it's one less of your other answer enchantments/artifacts that they didn't destroy.

[4eak]

@ Valtrix


My question was about horizons in general.

What would you replace with it? What matches would you prefer to have the card?

As I said before, most of the time, the card is only good when you were already winning. Horizons is fighting for the function of Scrying sheets and Eternal Dragon cycling. I'm not saying you can't generate advantage through horizon, but what makes it better than what we already have? The card is really win-more.

This is a card that is really only useful when you were already in a winning position (regardless of the amount of lands removed to it). Why would you ever put yourself in such a vulnerable position?

I can't give a good reason to play the card.


Though I'd contest that you could still only have four mana and be fine.

The deck can win with four mana, but isn't recommended (at all). If it was game 1, and I was forever stuck at 4-land for the rest of the game due to a removed Horizons, I'd scoop and hope to salvage my time in games 2 and 3 where I had the ability to continually make land drops. A removed Horizons could easily sabotage one the largest reasons to play this deck: you never miss land drops, and your untap step generates massive amounts of advantage that an opponent cannot match.

The benefits really just aren't worth the risk.






peace,
4eak

[Joe_C]

Tournament coming in another week!

I would appreciate a breakdown of boarding choices for the following matchups:

1.Gofy Sligh
2 Landstill (U/b/w with vindicate)
3. Merfolk
4. Survival
5. Ichorid
6. Goblins including other non blue aggro
7. Aggro Loam

My deck and SB
18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Eternal Dragon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Story Circle
3 Wrath of God


SB:
1Story Circle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ray of Distortion
1 Rule of Law
1 Aura of Silence
2 Sacred Ground
1 Abeyance
2 Decree of Justice

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

I'm not sure who read hi-val's article on SCG today but he brought up a card that might be fun to test in Quinn: Thran Turbine. He brought up its possible use in a Proclamation of Rebirth/Martyr of Sands deck like Idiot Life in 1.x.

I thought about its application in Quinn and I hope it could be a Sol Ring but it just may not do enough to warrant slots in Quinn.

Uses:
Activation of Scrying Sheets, Grindstone, Sacred Mesa, Isochron Scepter, SDT
Cycle Dragon or Decree
Regrow Dragon

In the thread for the discussion of hi-val's article, Eladriel makes some great points about Thran Turbine in relation to the Proclamation deck:


you don't want to cycle your Decree in upkeep meaning you're mostly stuck with E. Dragon recursion. I've fooled around with casual Rebel-decks playing Turbine and come to the conclusion, the card isn't worth it in really any suggested shell, because you need to spend mana on it instead of on a creature, and it doesn't help with casting additional creatures. Having to cast Turbine and the cards that use it just kinda bottlenecks your mana.


and


you have to play it as a mana producer in terms of deck space, and yet you can't use to cast spells in a control-deck, which I could see causing problems.

I'm not sure if it would really find a deck slot because it doesn't help cast spells. That said, I might toss in a copy or two and see how the deck plays. Has anyone else tried Thran Turbine and to what success?

[Unknown2]

does anybody find making a list with elspeth, humility and whetwheel to be humourously awesome?

[4eak]

Thran Turbine does everything at our upkeep. That sucks for us. We spend the vast majority of our non-spell mana at the end of our opponents turn. Even it were somewhat free, it would very often be strategically unwise to spend mana (often requiring a little extra) during our upkeep, with the exception of dragon recursion (but even that requires timing) and the occasional top/scry pre-draw.

Assuming you'd only play 1-2, then you will have to tutor for this. When would you want to tutor for this instead of one of our other bombs? If you didn't need those bombs, or you already had them, then you were already winning, right? This deck plays a great deal of reactive control, buying time to aim and shoot a silver-bullet proactive control piece. I don't think Turbine really improves that strategy.






peace,
4eak

[ThoseWhoFearTomorrow]

Thran Turbine does everything at our upkeep.

This was my biggest hang up with the card. It seems like cycling Dragon and occasionally spinning top are its uses since the other uses I stated earlier we wouldn't want to do during upkeep. Maybe if we activate Isochron Scpeter on our turn to protect a spell. That is about it.


Assuming you'd only play 1-2, then you will have to tutor for this.

I still might try a copy or two but I would never plan on burning a tutor on it. That seems like a disastrous play using a topdeck tutor to find a mana source that will not affect your mana development that turn (unlike say Mystical->Dark Ritual). With all of the silver bullets this deck can run to grab with E. tutor to wreck strategies, I wouldn't want to grab the Turbine since it won't affect the opponent's strategies. Conditional mana in control is weak so I may have just answered my question to the viability of this card.

[smoky squirrel]

The big problem with this card is, what are you going to cut that is less important to the deck than Thran Turbine will be if included. I cannot think of anything that could be lost in favour of two extra mana for upkeep actions every turn.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't see why this is under discussion. Thran Turbine does nothing in this deck to advance a single primary, secondary or even tertiary strategy, either on offense or defense. In terms of mana acceleration, it's much worse than either Mind Stone or Coldsteel Heart, neither of which are under serious discussion in the deck at this moment.

As far as endlessly recycling Dragon for more plains, Valtrix's suggestion of Endless Horizons has a lot more merit.

[torgar]

I won a Mana Drain with this deck tonight at the Vestal Legacy tourney, going 6-2.

More details later.

Couple good points:

Sacred Mesa is an MVP in the deck.

Scrying Sheets/Top engine is very very very good.

Most interesting victory. VS MoonThresh piloted by a complete scumbag: Dropped two Grindstones under Moat and straight-up old-skool milled the whole way for the win. With no Painters/E.Tutors in sight and complete board control (involving the Moat all the other removal in the deck) I was able to keep Trygon Predators at bay despite operating around an opposing Counter Top Engine. This was more rewarding than all the other Mesa kills.

Boarding out the combo for alternate win conditions was very effective.

Also naming black with a Painter is clutch as I did preemptively avoid a Snuff Out which I later saw in the opponent's hand after he scooped.

Props to the 12-year old who took second place and a Timetwister running mono-red Goblins running Mogg Flunkies.

Oh yeah, and to whoever is suggesting Thran Turbine for the deck, please put down the crack pipe.

[Joe_C]

I won a Mana Drain with this deck tonight at the Vestal Legacy tourney, going 6-2.

More details later.

Couple good points:

Sacred Mesa is an MVP in the deck.

Scrying Sheets/Top engine is very very very good.

Most interesting victory. VS MoonThresh piloted by a complete scumbag: Dropped two Grindstones under Moat and straight-up old-skool milled the whole way for the win. With no Painters/E.Tutors in sight and complete board control (involving the Moat all the other removal in the deck) I was able to keep Trygon Predators at bay despite operating around an opposing Counter Top Engine. This was more rewarding than all the other Mesa kills.

Boarding out the combo for alternate win conditions was very effective.

Also naming black with a Painter is clutch as I did preemptively avoid a Snuff Out which I later saw in the opponent's hand after he scooped.

Props to the 12-year old who took second place and a Timetwister running mono-red Goblins running Mogg Flunkies.

Oh yeah, and to whoever is suggesting Thran Turbine for the deck, please put down the crack pipe.


Glad to see someone did well with the deck. I may or may not play this deck this afternoon.... Do you feel confident in the decks ability to win within time constraints?

[smoky squirrel]

A very small report of part of a tournament I played (I conceded my last game since I had to go and pick up my girlfriend. She matters more than magic (I hope nobody finds this offensive ;) ))

Round 1 vs Ichorid (very nice opponent)
Game 1: I StP a Putrid Imp, then a Narcomoeba, then put down Scepter-Chant. Easy win for me.
Game 2: Cabal Therapy Cabal Therapy Cabal Therapy Swarm of Zombies. I die.
Game 3: I use a Tormod's Crypt. He gets Chain of Vapor, Ancient Grudge and Swarm of Zombies. My brains were eaten once more.
0 WIN - 1 LOSS

Round 2 vs Angel Stompy (sleepy but nice opponent)
Game 1: He plays a Mother of Runes, a Soltari Priest and an Aven Mindcensor. I play two Runed Halos naming the Mindcensor and Serra Avenger (complete guess). I also have a Moat. I win with Painter's Stone combo since I draw like a lucky bastard. He had three Serra Avengers in hand.
Game 2: He plays a lot, then I play Wrath of God. I mill him. Yey. My brains have regrown.
1 WIN- 1 LOSS

Round 3 vs some Ad Nauseam combo. Looks like Fetchland Tendrils or something (great opponent)
Game 1: I have two Chants which i use on the appropriate ti;es. He still goes off, and I plow my own Eternal Dragon, putting me at 25. He plays Ill-Gotten Gains, I get back Scepter-Chant. Then proceeds to tendrills me for 24. That is not enough. He has no answers vs a Scepter.
Game 2: He goes off, I have Abeyance and Orim's Chant. He has two Pacts of Negation. I die a silent Tendrilsy death.
There is no time for a third game...
1 WIN - 1 LOSS - 1 DRAW

Round 4 vs 43 Lands (or some number around that)(silent but nice opponent)
Game 1: I get a quick tutored Painter's Servant and Grindstone. The Grindstone gets destroyed by an Engineered Explosives. I tutor up another one. I mill him, but he keeps putting stuff back with an Academy Ruins. I mill him again after he puts something on top.
Game 2: I get a quick Sacred Ground and Relic of Progenitus, so he cannot use his graveyard (or his Monasteries). I stall until i get 9 mana. I play Tormod's Crypt, then I Chant him. I Tutor for the second piece of Painter and Stone, which I draw with the Relic. I play the combo and mill him. In response to his Academy Ruins I crypt him. So I win.

Luckily for him I needed to leave right after this game so I concede to him. He was very very puzzled that I gave him the win.

This deck is very good and very consistent. The only thing I really really fear is Ichorid. I will play it at my next tournament. You made it well, Infamous Bear Assassin!

[quicksilver]

You made it well, Infamous Bear Assassin!

Oh, don't incourage him.

[torgar]

Glad to see someone did well with the deck. I may or may not play this deck this afternoon.... Do you feel confident in the decks ability to win within time constraints?

Yes. I never went to turns.

One of my match losses was in part due to the fact I was concerned about the amount of time left going into G3 vs some CB/Goyf/Trygon build. I wanted to go for the win instead of the draw so I stupidly sided the Painter's combo back in, despite knowing using the alternate win conditions and Rays of Distortion was the better (albeit slower) choice. I figured I could try to go for the speed combo kill and took a chance early on that my opponent wasn't holding Daze. He was and I didn't have the hand left to recover.

Every other match I finished in time.

RE: Ichorid.
I played vs Ichorid round 5 and had a textbook victory.

G1: He was on the play and combo-ed out before I could do much.
G2: I sided in x1Relic,x3Crypt. I go first and start with a hand that included two E.Tutors and an O-Ring. Good enough for me. Turn 1: Plains Go. He draws, no-land drop and discards Gravetroll. :) EOT I tutor for Relic. Turn 2: Play Relic, RFG Gravetroll. This bought me a lot of time. The game proceeds, let him dredge a bit and hit a breakthrough for a lot of dredge and eventually I pop Relic when he gets a Bridge in the yard. EOT I tutor for Crypt and drop it next turn. He plays Needle naming Crypt. Next turn I O-Ring the needle and go on to the victory.
G3: I keep a hand with Painter, Grindstone and three plains and decide to try and combo out before him. He has Chain of Vapor to bounce my turn 2 Painter but I end up winning two turns later.

I like using a mix of Relic and Crypt. It keeps them guessing on Needle and I think Relic is better than Crypt vs Ichorid since if they have no discard outlet other than their EOT-step you can stop easily stop them from even starting to dredge.

[DukeDemonKn1ght]

So, uh... I luv this deck, although I don't play it in real life, for lack of a Moat... But what the fuck happened to it?? Is going to draw still too much of an issue? I've always sort of wanted to play Quinn, the lack of activity bums me out...:eyebrow:

[Joe_C]

So, uh... I luv this deck, although I don't play it in real life, for lack of a Moat... But what the fuck happened to it?? Is going to draw still too much of an issue? I've always sort of wanted to play Quinn, the lack of activity bums me out...:eyebrow:

This is why I packed this deck away. If you have a meta that is devoid of counterbalance, this deck would seriously kick some ass... Playing against counterbalance decks drags the game out extremely

[pandabaer]

i dont think that a draw that much of an issue. sure vs counterbalance it can go long but normally decree or elspeth (or whatever you play in that slot what is able to deal with this situation) wins there and after sb you have the ray ... which solves the problem perfectly.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In a CB/Chalice heavy metagame, 2x maindeck Ray of Distortion might be enough to put the deck back on solid footing- maybe cutting 1x Abeyance and 1x Tutor or some such.

[Clark Kant]

I've been playing a build nearly identical to the original build with one modification.

I'm playing 3 Guilty Conciensce and 3 Stuffy Doll over most of the other win conditions. I am also playing Mother of Runes (I don't have Moat, though I do have 4 Magus of the Moat that I can use instead but I thought I would be better off with MoM).

Originally, I did this only because I didn't want to fork over $100+ for the Painter's Servent combo.

But now, even though I can get those cards, I actually think I'm better off with Stuffy Doll and Guilty Concience for one major reason...

Both Stuffy Doll and Guilty Concience serve alternative roles that do a great job of advancing this deck's game plan.

There's been several games when a Goyf was about to swing at me next turn and I would've had no out except that I had a Stuffy Doll or Mother of Runes to stop their attack and survive without costing me any life. And many games were the only answer I had to a Tombstalker or Dreadnought was a Guilty Concience but that saved my butt.

[Valtrix]

And I'm still sitting on my plains/belcher to try... :P

Yeah, this deck really needs some things that can give it real card advantage, relatively quickly. The biggest problem I've had is that it's so many hungry, and just runs out of gas because you have to have so many lands as opposed to answers.

I still think it's a decent choice to play, but it's just missing a little bit to really push it over the edge.

[Icapica]

Can anyone give any brief comments about how this deck does against popular Legacy decks? The first post has some, but it's very old already. I'm interested in building the deck because it seems very fun, but I'd like to know about matchups.

[MikeyFlowers]

Hello, I'm still getting used to this deck but as a general comment the only problem it has is that it needs time to set up and stabilize. The scrying sheets / top draw engine can use up three mana a turn so in the early stages of the game you can't use it to full effect. If you are the type of player who can sit back and stabilize and think several turns ahead this could be a very fun deck. It has a lot of things going on simultaneously and they all require some degree of thought to pull them off.

The other decks I have that I've been playing it against are Eva Green, Dragon Stompy, Canadian Thresh, Dreadstill, and Progenitus Elves. Quinn doesn't do well against Eva Green for example because it doesn't get the time it needs to stabilize. Against Dreadstill it is much stronger as that deck plays out more slowly. I still need to get used to the deck and then I can report back much more completely on how it performs. I will say that it is quite fun and with a price tag of "only" two or three hundred bucks or so it is a cool deck to try out. If you are the type of player who can sit back and work everything the deck has going it will be very fun. If you are aiming to comeout of the gates firing its not for you. I imagine it would do well against Landstill as well. Really any deck that gives it time to work will get swallowed up in the impressive combos this deck can unleash.

Still, I'm just getting used to the deck and I have a feeling it will turn out to be better than I'm playing it now. For me though I would rather unleash a swarm of creatures and win that way. This deck tends to draw into a ton of lands and stall out. If you know how to work this play style and you know how to place your Orimm's Chants and Abeyances you will have a lot of fun with this deck. Also, since nobody plays this deck you can catch people off guard and White has always been a color I've wanted to play but never really have been able to. This deck plays out unique and fun and with the right amount of practice and familiarty you could have a lot of fun with it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I had a lot of success testing against Eva Green and Team America, primarily due to the fact that they run such a low threat count. Maelstrom Pulse, however, probably does make the matchup more difficult. If these decks are in your metagame, you might consider fitting in one or two Condemn or Path to Exile as a backup to StP.

I don't think most speedy decks are an issue. I've done well against Ichorid, for instance, because of cards like Chant and Moat. For decks like TES you have maindeck Chant and Abeyance. Midrange decks that pack really annoying disruption, Counterbalance-Top with Goyf or Chalice with big fat creatures and Equipment, are more threatening, in my experience. Enchantress is usually a kick in the nuts and Solidarity is devastating, but less so than with past builds of MWC.

Burn is problematic, g1, and Zoo is the most threatening form of aggro due to the heavy burn suite. Although at least PoP is dead. Merfolk is another relatively difficult aggro matchup, although if you get some early game removal you should have lasting power. Don't be stingy in Chant and Abeyance to force through removal in this matchup.

As for draws... that's really what Sheets and Top are for. Top is honestly probably my single most common Tutor target, even above Moat. Your land base, with Top in play, basically gives your draw step kicker of 3: Draw a land card and a spell.

[NERER0CKET]

I really like this deck. I'm currently building it though very slowly because of my budget. Would it be possible for someone to share a modern list looks like, everyone posts different versions and I'm looking for the most competitive. I'm currently running a list that looks like this on mws

// Lands
16 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
3 [PT] Wrath of God
1 [8E] Story Circle
4 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
1 [TSB] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [8E] Story Circle
SB: 3 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [8E] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish

I put 1x replenish in the deck because I've had times where I've rolled over and died to a serenity.

[Valtrix]

That seems like a pretty standard list, honestly. Most builds are
-1 halo
-1 Oring
-1 story circle
+2 Snow-covered plains
+1 abeyance

That said I think if you want to run less lands that you'll need to cut one dragon. Mana shuffling is nice, but eh...I think it's more important to have that speed. Also, most builds don't run 4 halos, but I'm more and more convinced that it's better to play 4 halos. It's just way too good to not run 4. It gives us a quick answer to essentially every threat, and is one of the few ways in this deck to earn virtual card advantage--something we desperately need. I would say that story circle main is a little overboard though. I don't feel that it is needed in the main when you have moat. Plus, it's really mana intensive which can really suck.

As for the board...I'm a little less sure of how to run the board. I think that you're is decent, but 1 replenish doesn't seem good to me. You can't tutor for it, and it's not necessarily common for you to draw the one-of. People play decree in the board, but likewise I feel that it's not super-useful. I just don't think decree is a good win condition, especially through moat, and since halo leaves blockers. We have sacred ground, but I question it's usefulness sometimes. I like having it, but at the same time I sometimes wish I had something more useful for more matchups. Also, I would argue that ethersworn canonist is better than rule of law, if you want something against combo. It attacks, is able to be played sooner, and can't be taken from duress. I almost don't think you need it though. Halo + chant effects should be quite enough to answer it already.

So, I got to test out horizons belcher a little bit today. I think I'm convinced that it's better than playing no form of combo win (I was using multiple mesas before, mostly). Being able to combo out is just useful. One thing that I do like is that each piece is more useful by itself than painter-stone. I thought that using belcher to both kill creatures and cycle through unneeded cards with top was really good. The effeciency of painter/stone is just a lot better though. I'm going to keep playing with it and see how I like it though. (I still need one more grindstone anyway...)

I had horizons killed a few times, but really...I didn't feel that it mattered. It let me draw a threat every turn, and belcher could still be found for the win. As such it seems less useful in painter/stone versions, but I still have no indication of its strength there(as a 1 or 2 of is all). I still like it :P

[Roman Candle]

That said I think if you want to run less lands that you'll need to cut one dragon. Mana shuffling is nice, but eh...I think it's more important to have that speed.

This doesn't make any sense to me. With less lands, he shouldn't cut more mana sources.

[Valtrix]

Sorry, that was misphrased. I meant to cut one dragon for a land.

[NERER0CKET]

Thankyou for your feed back, I'm going to take it into consideration and do some testing right now. The Horizons and Belcher combo seems cool, but it seems really slow. On countless occasions grindstone has won me games even without painter.

-1 story circle
-1 O-Ring
+1 Snowcovered plains
+1 Abayence.

SB:
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 3 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 2 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 3 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence

[Valtrix]

Yeah, I never said Horizons/belcher was more useful than painter/stone. I was just saying it's better than having no form of combo win, if you're like me and are too cheap to buy grindstones :P (I need to trade for one more.)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I played this at the big Jupiter Games tournament yesterday. Started out 3-1, then imploded to finish a disappointing 4-4.

I won twice against Zoo, once against B/G/W aggro/PTFunk/Rock/whatever, and once against U/W Tutor-Landstill. Lost once to Zoo, to Fetchland Tendrils, to Eva Green and to Survival Elves.

Fetchland Tendrils and Survival Elves seem like bad matchups generally, although I made several misplays against Tendrils. I just barely lost to Elves twice, coming within one-two life of killing him, so that doesn't seem unwinnable.

Zoo and Eva Green were part play mistakes, part nuts draws for my opponents. At least one game involved severe mana flood which might've been a result of not shuffling thoroughly- I was trying to finish quickly due to the clock ticking on the round.

One factor was poor energy planning. I was dehydrated most of the day, and I slept on the floor/chair of the motel room rather than a bed, only getting like five hours of sleep curled up in the fetal position. And breakfast was donuts. This may have contributed to more mistakes later in the day.

Also, the deck needs some form of life gain. Story Circle is okay, but six of the eight decks I played against had Krosan Fucking Grip in the board. They still usually have to deal with the fact that they only have three answers (although seven in the case of Zoo. Frown) against a plethora of potential targets, but still. Something that gains life immediately would be useful. Faith's Fetters or Genju of the Fields. Does Genju still stack the lifegain?

Here was my list;

Main;

19x SC Plains
3x Scrying Sheets

4x Top
3x E Tutor

3x E Dragon
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Sacred Mesa

4x StP
3x O Ring
3x Runed Halo
3x Wrath of God
1x Moat

4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter

SB:
3x Ray of Distortion
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Sacred Mesa
2x Story Circle
2x Sacred Ground
1x Aura of Silence
1x Rule of Law
1x Karmic Justice

Thoughts:

Maindeck was good. Sideboard was somewhat thrown together at the last minute. Karmic Justice turned out to be golden, and Aura was good as a one-of to supplement Ray, since O-Ring can be destroyed.

I never needed or wanted the second sideboard Sacred Ground or Sacred Mesa, so those could probably go out for something else. Maybe the above mentioned Genju.

The tournament itself was prety awesome, except for my last round opponent who acted like a giant asshat. In general though I wish these things lasted longer; half the fun is hanging out with people from the Source, but everyone tends to go home way early in the weekend. On a side note, leaving Saturday night was the worst idea ever.

[Xero]

Yes, lifegain from Genju still stacks. I guess you could try Words of Worship for a life-gaining enchantment also, but I'm not sure how good that would be.

On a side note, wouldn't a SB Humility be good against Zoo/Elves? I know it stops the Painter combo kill, but you could still win with Decree/Dragon/Belcher.

[Roman Candle]

IBA, I haven't played with Quinn in a while, but how bad does the recent jump in popularity of Qasali Pridemage hurt you?

[DeathScythe]

what was the overral meta over there?
is there a reason you played 1 mesa main and 2 copeis in the side or was this just all plan of the ''random pile''?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't think I said random pile. There were some slots in the board that were kind of thrown together. Sacred Mesa was good to have three of against Fairy Stompy and Landstill, but overall I think the second was all I needed. If anything, a DoJ would've been better in the other slot. Or, again, more likely Genju.

The metagame was holy shit that's a lot of Zoo and Merfolk. And some CB-Top and other stuff.

Candle: The first round I played I hardly noticed it. Every other spell's a goddamn artifact and enchantment, so they have to select their targets pretty carefully. It especially helps if they don't even run Grips in the board because of the maindeck Pridemages. When they're in there with the Grips, it gets significantly more annoying. Especially when you're leaning on Story Circle. Pridemage was one reason Karmic Justice was so good all day.

It's enough to make a man think about Humility over Moat.

Actually, Humility in the board would work out really well with Mesa and Genju...

Although the "just kill them" factor is really good against Zoo as well, so meh.

[Captain_Morgan]

Ajani Goldmane though would take less of a mana commitment after cast versus Genju's consistent upkeep and the ultimate for a large avatar wall thing after a while. Then again, it's also slow as balls but less susceptible to enchantment removal versus burn and critters is more killable.

[Maëlig]

An option to gain life would indeed be good for this deck. I don't think Ajani or genju are particularily good candidates for this role in the MD however, as the first has a poor synergy with halo and story circle, and the second gets hit by swords. And if it's for a SB option you have a better choice imo : pulse of the fields (except if you don't want to devote 3 slots to it, in which case a tutorable genju might be worthwhile). A single tutorable faith's fetters MD seems like the best option to be, either cutting an o.ring (similar role) or a runed halo (I feel like the deck could use some additional o.ring-effects tbh).

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I think 1x Faith's Fetters and 1x Genju could tag team in the board. Both are doubly good against Zoo, taking out a creature while gaining life for Fetters or blocking with a lifegaining 2/5 for Genju. So an SB something like;

3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Ray of Distortion
2x Story Circle
1x Sacred Mesa
1x Sacred Ground
1x Rule of Law
1x Aura of Silence
1x Karmic Justice
1x Genju of the Fields
1x Faith's Fetters

[MTG-Fan]

Have you guys considered the Procla-martyr combo?

[idraleo]

I thought he'd rather play some threat that he could find with Tutor. Also, the large amount of artifact spell is a bad call to Martyr ability, regardless you drop a Servant on the board...

[4eak]

M10 = No Mana Burn = Pulse of the Fields pwns face.

This deck will definitely improve against Burn/Zoo.

Ironically, I've been testing Pulse for the past couple weeks (and really enjoying it). Now, it will be a staple in this deck. It will perpetually timewalk, forcing opponents to overextend on the board. Wrath of God just got a whole lot better.





peace,
4eak

[DeathScythe]

bah, new rules also crushes our hopes on using genju on giving us life since lifelink doesnt stack anymore :/

[lordofthepit]

bah, new rules also crushes our hopes on using genju on giving us life since lifelink doesnt stack anymore :/

I'm not sure what you meant by this? Do you mean casting Pulse of the Fields and having it return with Genju lifegain on the stack?

Also, with the way I read the wording changes, Genju doesn't have "lifelink". It still has a triggered ability that allows you to gain two life (and uses the stack).


As with deathtouch, this will incur functionality changes in some cards and errata (actually, un-errata) in others. If a card was printed with the word "lifelink" on it, its functionality will change to the new lifelink. However, a bunch of cards were printed with the ability "Whenever [this permanent] deals damage, you gain that much life" on them and got errata to say "lifelink" a couple of years ago because the two abilities were equivalent. Now that they're not, those cards will be reverted to their original wordings. They'll work as printed ... but they won't have lifelink. Only one card—Loxodon Warhammer—has been printed both ways. Since its most recent printing says "lifelink," it will stick with that and have the new functionality.

What a headache to figure out.

[DeathScythe]

no someone mentioned genju and its ability go gain 5 times lifelink and gaining you 10 life by attacking/blocking. with the new rules this wont work anymore as lifelink will be a static ability (as will deathtouch)


Oracle tekst

Spelltype: Enchantment
Subtype: Aura
Enchant Plains
2: Enchanted Plains becomes a 2/5 white Spirit creature with LIFELINK until end of turn. It's still a land. (Whenever it deals damage, its controller gains that much life.)
When enchanted Plains is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the Fields from your graveyard to your hand.

[lordofthepit]

no someone mentioned genju and its ability go gain 5 times lifelink and gaining you 10 life by attacking/blocking. with the new rules this wont work anymore as lifelink will be a static ability (as will deathtouch)

You mean activate the ability five times, swing/block to gain 10 life? I didn't realize that, but that's a great use. Fortunately, I think it will still work post-M10 because the new Oracle text will have the card with a triggered ability as printed on the original card (as opposed to the static "lifelink").

[JeroenC]

But, as I thought to discern from the article, I think (not sure) older cards errata'd into lifelink (like Genju) will be unerrata'd- back to their original wording.

[4eak]

Why consider Genju at all? Genju is at best 1 mana for 1 life, while Pulse is 1 mana for 1.33 life, it does this at instant speed, and it is considerably harder to answer. Genju downs 2 or less Toughness creatures, but it is also vulnerable to removal and larger creatures (like a 5/6 Goyf).

Pulse of the Fields is very likely going to be the best lifegain spell in the game. While that title probably isn't amazing (because lifegain usually sucks), the ability to stall is fairly relevant to this deck in particular. It changes a lot of matches for us, and it causes a lot of decks to overextend even further before we bury them in card advantage and silver bullets.






peace,
4eak

[Nekrataal]

Why consider Genju at all? Genju is at best 1 mana for 1 life, while Pulse is 1 mana for 1.33 life, it does this at instant speed, and it is considerably harder to answer. Genju downs 2 or less Toughness creatures, but it is also vulnerable to removal and larger creatures (like a 5/6 Goyf).

Pulse of the Fields is very likely going to be the best lifegain spell in the game. While that title probably isn't amazing (because lifegain usually sucks), the ability to stall is fairly relevant to this deck in particular. It changes a lot of matches for us, and it causes a lot of decks to overextend even further before we bury them in card advantage and silver bullets.

peace,
4eak

Small side notice: Pulse of the Fields gets slighty weaker in its application because mana burn doesnt exists anymore. Almost not worth a post but it just fitted here.

[Zach Tartell]

I don't understand how this makes it weaker. Your opponent will almost always have a higher life total than you (unless you go Painter beat down).

[4eak]

@ Nekrataal


Small side notice: Pulse of the Fields gets slighty weaker in its application because mana burn doesnt exists anymore. Almost not worth a post but it just fitted here.

I'm going to assume you've not played much with this card. Let me explain how the card currently works, and then I'll explain how the card will work after M10.

Pulse of the Fields gives you 4 life, and then it checks to see if you lifetotal is lower than your opponent's. If your life total is lower, then you get to put Pulse back into your hand. The desirable strategy is to take enough damage from your opponent so that you have at least a 5 life total difference, that way you can play Pulse of the Fields and return it back to your hand. For creature-based strategies, that often means you've negated all the damage they've dealt that turn, and because Pulse is back in your hands, you get to negate the damage of their next combat step as well (and the one after that, etc.). For Burn based damage, Pulse acts as raw card advantage, basically "countering" each burn spell, and hopefully returning to your hands to do it again.

The problem with Pulse is that there are several ways for your opponent to play around it. For example, if you only have 5 less life than your opponent when you cast Pulse, and he has a fetch in play, he can fetch in response to Pulse, making it so you only have 4 less life than your opponent. When Pulse resolves, you'll have an equal life total, which means Pulse will go to the graveyard.

Mana Burn is actually the most universal counter to Pulse recursion. Mana Burn is easy to achieve (make mana, often from tapping lands, and don't spend the mana when you changes phases), and it causes uncounterable lifeloss. This means that an opponent can keep within 4 life parity with you, preventing successful Pulse recursion. Normally this sounds like a silly idea, but against control decks, the aggro-player's lifetotal is almost meaningless. They'll be happy to sac their life total to make sure you die.

I'll give you an example of how this plays out: The first time you Pulse and put it back in your hands your opponent will be caught off guard. But, they will not make the same mistake twice. Instead of blindly dropping their burn into your face or swinging with their creatures next time, they'll first mana burn themselves to make sure you cannot recur Pulse after they've dealt their damage. They'll drop life total in parity with you until you are forced to Pulse without meeting the recur-conditions in response to their lethal damage.

Essentially, Pulse of the Fields is universally disarmed through the mana burn game mechanic. It just isn't functional against an opponent with a brain.

Now, when M10 comes out, and Mana Burn doesn't exist, your opponent will have little or no way to drop in life total to stop Pulse recursion. When they can't stop Pulse recursion, then they are forced to do one of the following things:


Use Permission/Discard against Pulse (most aggro decks can't do this, and there is no difference between current and post-M10 Pulse in this respect)
Burn themselves (card disadvantage for them and can be played around by the Pulse player)
Build an Alpha strike board/hand that can deal more damage than you can gain each turn.


In conjunction with this decks exceptional ability to make land drops every turn, Pulse makes it so your aggro opponent literally cannot win the game until they have heavily, heavily overextended on the board or given you 10 turns of freedom as they buildup a good alpha-strike burn hand. This either makes your Wrath of God absolutely awesome, or it buys you time to bury them in card drawing, sometimes letting you just win the game before they could draw enough firepower to kill you or otherwise buying time to draw into a disruption piece for their alpha strike turn (like Chant or an additional Pulse).





peace,
4eak

[Zach Tartell]

For most aggro matches, Pulse makes it so your opponent literally cannot win the game until they have heavily, heavily overextended on the board. Making your Wrath of God absolutely awesome

You did a much better job of explaining that.

I'd like to add, however, that my Wraths are always awesome, because my Wraths are Beta, bitches. (Jack can attest to my zero-tolerance policy for fucking around)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

It is true.

[Nekrataal]

@ Nekrataal



I'm going to assume you've not played much with this card. Let me explain how the card currently works, and then I'll explain how the card will work after M10.

Pulse of the Fields gives you 4 life, and then it checks to see if you lifetotal is lower than your opponent's. If your life total is lower, then you get to put Pulse back into your hand. The desirable strategy is to take enough damage from your opponent so that you have at least a 5 life total difference, that way you can play Pulse of the Fields and return it back to your hand. For creature-based strategies, that often means you've negated all the damage they've dealt that turn, and because Pulse is back in your hands, you get to negate the damage of their next combat step as well (and the one after that, etc.). For Burn based damage, Pulse acts as raw card advantage, basically "countering" each burn spell, and hopefully returning to your hands to do it again.

The problem with Pulse is that there are several ways for your opponent to play around it. For example, if you only have 5 less life than your opponent when you cast Pulse, and he has a fetch in play, he can fetch in response to Pulse, making it so you only have 4 less life than your opponent. When Pulse resolves, you'll have an equal life total, which means Pulse will go to the graveyard.

Mana Burn is actually the most universal counter to Pulse recursion. Mana Burn is easy to achieve (make mana, often from tapping lands, and don't spend the mana when you changes phases), and it causes uncounterable lifeloss. This means that an opponent can keep within 4 life parity with you, preventing successful Pulse recursion. Normally this sounds like a silly idea, but against control decks, the aggro-player's lifetotal is almost meaningless. They'll be happy to sac their life total to make sure you die.

I'll give you an example of how this plays out: The first time you Pulse and put it back in your hands your opponent will be caught off guard. But, they will not make the same mistake twice. Instead of blindly dropping their burn into your face or swinging with their creatures next time, they'll first mana burn themselves to make sure you cannot recur Pulse after they've dealt their damage. They'll drop life total in parity with you until you are forced to Pulse without meeting the recur-conditions in response to their lethal damage.

Essentially, Pulse of the Fields is universally disarmed through the mana burn game mechanic. It just isn't functional against an opponent with a brain.

Now, when M10 comes out, and Mana Burn doesn't exist, your opponent will have little or no way to drop in life total to stop Pulse recursion. When they can't stop Pulse recursion, then they are forced to do one of the following things:


Use Permission/Discard against Pulse (most aggro decks can't do this, and there is no difference between current and post-M10 Pulse in this respect)
Burn themselves (card disadvantage for them and can be played around by the Pulse player)
Build an Alpha strike board/hand that can deal more damage than you can gain each turn.


In conjunction with this decks exceptional ability to make land drops every turn, Pulse makes it so your aggro opponent literally cannot win the game until they have heavily, heavily overextended on the board or given you 10 turns of freedom as they buildup a good alpha-strike burn hand. This either makes your Wrath of God absolutely awesome, or it buys you time to bury them in card drawing, sometimes letting you just win the game before they could draw enough firepower to kill you or otherwise buying time to draw into a disruption piece for their alpha strike turn (like Chant or an additional Pulse).





peace,
4eak

Totally agree :D thx for pointing that out. Didnt think that far

[Unknown2]

Main;

19x SC Plains
3x Scrying Sheets

4x Top
3x E Tutor

2x E Dragon
2x Elspeth
2x Humility
1x Sacred Mesa

4x StP
3x O Ring
3x Runed Halo
2x Wrath of God
1x Moat
1 Whetwheel

4x Orim's Chant
3x Abeyance
2x Isochron Scepter
----

What do you guys think of this? Especially post m10 rules, because I hate the combat phase now :P

[MTG-Fan]

So Pulse is going to be amazing with the new M10 rules change. I think we can all agree on that point.

But doesn't Pulse merely make already favorable matchups for this deck even better? It's sort of win-more in here because MWC already dominates random aggro and burn decks, doesn't it?

[Wargoos]

But doesn't Pulse merely make already favorable matchups for this deck even better? It's sort of win-more in here because MWC already dominates random aggro and burn decks, doesn't it?
No, it actually does not.

Zoo and Sligh can be both pretty though MU because they always board some Grips against us, which can hit our Story Circles.
So, I would suggest to play at least 3 Pulse's in the side, they just win against those decks.

[4eak]

MWC dominates random aggro, but the heavier the burn, in conjunction with Grip/Qasali, the more difficult the match.

Burn and Zoo are winnable without Pulse, especially for those who ran Story Circle main, but Pulse turns a common matchup into a very one sided fight.

M10 Pulse is useful in so many more situations though. I've kept my life total afloat against even Phyrexian Dreadnought until I found an answer. In the same way that Runed Halo is a unique and flexible control component, Pulse gives the deck yet another type of answer.




peace,
4eak

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

True story. Depending on the exact list and sideboard, Zoo can either feel like a cakewalk, or a nightmarish attempt to combo off before they burn you to death. It's never a horrendous matchup, but it's increasingly common, and especially with Pridemage, Pulse wouldn't be a bad option at all.

[1maarten1]

So whats the suggestion? Play pulse main or side? How many?

@4eak
Could you perhaps post the list ur using atm??

Thanks, Maarten

[4eak]

I'm still adjusting lists and testing. I consider Pulse to be maindeckable, but others may not.

Here is a current list:

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
19 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [AT] Sacred Mesa
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [10E] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [WL] Aura of Silence

Oddly enough, just trying oddball cards, I've really enjoyed playing with Akroma's Vengeance since PoF. It doesn't fit very well in an enchantment based control deck though. If you build around Vengeance, which pwns a lot of nasty cards for MWC, it can be pretty decent. Not likely as good as a solid E-tutor engine.





peace,
4eak

[Carabas]

Would you consider Austere Command? Doesn't cycle, but can hit artifacts+most legacy creatures, can be a 6cc wrath, or in a pinch can take out CB.

[Mystical_Jackass]

I just saw a new previewed card, "Silence".
Is this gonna be a new powerhouse card, I can't even imagine how broken that'd be with like a scepter on it.

[Jak]

I just saw a new previewed card, "Silence".
Is this gonna be a new powerhouse card, I can't even imagine how broken that'd be with like a scepter on it.

How is it better than Chant?

[beastman]

Thats easy...It's not

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Would you consider Austere Command? Doesn't cycle, but can hit artifacts+most legacy creatures, can be a 6cc wrath, or in a pinch can take out CB.

It's broken my heart to have to strip, bit by bit, most of the cards that were amazing in Onslaught Block MWC (and Rabid Wombat) out of the deck, including DoJ, Wing Shards, and Vengeance. It was necessitated by the fact that this deck runs more artifacts and enchantments than most other decks outside of Ancient Tomb decks and Enchantress, though.

[Shawon]

Would Silence be better than Abeyance though?

[DireLemming]

It doesn't target though. Might be useful in metas where Runed Halo & co. are [heavily] played (if there exists such a meta).

[ykpon]

It's broken my heart to have to strip, bit by bit, most of the cards that were amazing in Onslaught Block MWC (and Rabid Wombat) out of the deck, including DoJ, Wing Shards, and Vengeance.
cutting md Decree seems obvious and i didn't like Vengeance even in my old-school Wombat deck. but cutting Wing Shards is such a butthurt for me.. can you explain it, please? novadays blue based a/c's are everywhere and we already run a lot of instants (including 4 or even more StP's) to help Shards working. even against goblins it often seems to be not worse than WoG because of Ports and their love to play creatures during the 1st main phase. and against Faerie Stompy, Team America, Thresh, Dreadstill and so on Shards seems a way better for me because of their counterspells and number of threats. playing Wombat, i've never put any WoG's in my deck before i was sure i had 4 of Shards already and i was satisfied with it even in my Goblins heavy meta. i haven't enough experience with Quinn though, so mb there is a difference between these decks and so i'm not right about it. but after a bit of testing 5 Swords, 3 Shards and 0 WoGs were ok for me.:rolleyes:

[Valtrix]

So, on spoilers...
Open the Vaults
:4::w::w:
Sorcery

Return all artifact and enchantment cards from all graveyards to the battlefield under their owners' control.

Most people don't play replenish in this deck, but would this perhaps see any play? It gets back pretty much everything that we need, including our win conditions. It sucks that we have to return other people's as well, but hey, we probably don't care that much. Downside is that it costs 6, so that could hinder it from being most useful when we need it.

Honestly, I've just thought about it only slightly in the back of my head, but I'm just throwing it out there for now.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Open the Vaults would be interesting as a must counter for the control matchup. I doubt it'd be optimal as a sideboard card though.

@ykpon:

Wing Shards was just edged out by Runed Halo and O-Ring. The only card it could really replace is O-Ring, which is the maindeck answer to cards like Counterbalance and Smokestack and the like.

And for Silence over Abeyance;

Possibility, but I'm inclined towards 'no'. It's a lot more situational on a stick than Chant is, and Abeyance is good by itself + stops cards like Seal of Cleansing/Gempalm Incinerator.

[NERER0CKET]

I'm going to begin playing this deck in a meta comprised of ITF,Ugw Thresh, Goblins, WW, MBA, and random other things. I was wondering if anyone could give me match precentages.

Also I'm wondering, I'm running 1 mesa and 2 decree main deck. I'm thinking about going up to 2 mesa and cutting the decree for something else (Possibly elspeth) I'm wondering if this is the right call.

[Roman Candle]

Possibility, but I'm inclined towards 'no'. It's a lot more situational on a stick than Chant is, and Abeyance is good by itself + stops cards like Seal of Cleansing/Gempalm Incinerator.

Most importantly, though, it keeps an online Pridemage from keeping you off the combo.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

And Deed, and EE. There's actually a surprising number of scenarios where it comes up.

[ykpon]

@TheInfamousBearAssassin

i understand power of Ring and Halo, especially in a deck which uses Enlightened Tutor. i obviously run them as at least 1-of's. the only card i am comparing Wing Shards with is Wrath of God. here's what i think about it:

pros:
1) better mana cost
2) one sided
3) somehow uncounterable
4) can deal with Teeg, Finks, manlands and creatures with haste (Anger, Zealot, Warchief etc)

cons:
1) can't kill really big swarms (though WoG without help of chant can't kill zombie tokens too and other swarms don't seem to be very popular these days. mb only Progenitus plus a bunch of elves, dunno)
2) sometimes needs another instants to be effective (but we already have a lot of them which we are going to play during their turn anyway: chant, abeyance, tutor etc. and WoG needs such cards too when playing against blue decks)
3) can't deal with Enchantress

any thoughts?

[4eak]

@ ykpon

Wing shards is a great card, but it isn't great enough. Runed Halo, Oblivion Ring and the other control cards are superior.

In a format where win condition density has been supplanted by threat diversity, where Goyf and several types of non-creature spells are the format defining threats (Counterbalance is a threat in my eyes), a control deck greatly benefits from versatile control cards. Think of the cards you wish to replace as being similar to the type of versatile control role played by permission spells in blue control decks.

Wing shards is too specific an answer while remaining behind the power curve when compared to currently run creature control spells. Moat, Wrath of God and StP are the core creature control package. The rest of the cards fill in the gaps while remaining capable of addressing non-creature threats.

There are too many types of threats for this deck to answer that we must give up certain focused cards, even if they are efficient, for answers that have a wider range of applications.




peace,
4eak

[_erbs_]

Hello,
Just wondering how does this deck fair against countertop decks ?

It seems to defensive when faced with a blue or counterbalance deck your opponent will just wait for your threats to come thus he/she will have countermagic more or less to counter your ormis's, abeyance and isochron.

are there ways to work around those kinds of decks ?

thanks

[Mono_Thematic]

I'm running a UW version, but am having problems with the mana base and having sufficent Blue spells to make FoW work.
Here's the list...

Land:
4 Tundra
4 Windswept Heath
4 Hallowed Fountain
9 Plains
2 Island

Creatures:
2 Crovax
2 Eternal Dragon

Planeswalker:
2 Elspeth

Enchantments:
3 Runed Halo
4 O Ring
2 Mobilization

Instants:
3 StP
4 Counterspell
4 FoW
4 Impulse

Sorceries:
4 Wrath of God
4 Ancestral Visions

Any suggestions?

[Roman Candle]

I'm running a UW version, but am having problems with the mana base and having sufficent Blue spells to make FoW work.

Any suggestions?

So, you're playing a WU version and you can't get the WU manabase to work or up the blue count enough to play FoW? How does blue make the deck better, then?

[Carabas]

That doesn't look anything like Quinn. No combokill, no crazy draw engine, no moat. I'd look in the landstill thread for advice, it looks more like that, honestly.

[Valtrix]

Woah, painter/stone combo is soooo much better than any other win condition for this deck. I was finally able to play with 2 painter/1 stone, and it was miles better than playing with horizons/belcher or no combo at all. I did play with 4 tutor and 1 argivian find though, since I wanted more ways to draw it/chance to get it back. Do you guys think running 1 grindstone is too risky though?

You know, not that this really adds much to the thread, but I just wanted to say how nice it was to finally play with the combo.

[_erbs_]

Hello
With counter top and pridemages all over the current meta how does this deck work around it

thanks

[Valtrix]

Sorry that your question got missed.

While I haven't actually played against counterbalance, your main methods of dealing with CB before boarding is oblivion ring. It's not ideal, since you still have to worry about forces and dazes all day, but it lets you deal with it. Your best bet is probably to get rid of one or two (if you're lucky) and hope that you can combo out before they can completely gain the game. Also, against CB decks if you can get down a moat you've usually won the game. It's not ideal, but you have options.

Post board you get to bring in ray of revaltion/aura of silence to give you more tricks. However, since they're bringing grip in the match is likewise going to suck. Since I haven't actually played against blue I'm not sure what should be sided out, but scepter is probably high on the list since it's just going to get 2-for-1'ed all day after they bring in grips.

If you can get them off balance, then you can use abeyance/chant to protect any main spells that you need to buy time, or straight up protect painter/stone combo (7 or 8 mana to combo with protection is pretty good).

Pridemage is a different type of monster. I'm not 100% how to deal with the type of decks that you're going to see him in, but it will be a lot of aggro. You can try and use pithing needle from the board, use wraths for some card advantage, and try to race them with painter/stone combo.

Quinn is never something that I'd say gets a lot of byes versus certain types of decks, but likewise no matchup is unwinable. With some patience, luck, and top you can find the right elements to just steal away the game.

[pandabaer]

how important is the change rules change for the deck
especially the layer change quote:
Layer 1: Copy effects are applied.
Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied.
Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. This includes effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
Layer 6: Ability-adding and ability-removing effects are applied.
Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied

Now color-changing effects happen before effects that add or remove abilities. This changes some Snakeform interactions, for example. It also changes how Painter's Servant interacts with effects that cause it to lose all abilities.

cause now painter's servant and humility work together ;)

[4eak]

Now color-changing effects happen before effects that add or remove abilities. This changes some Snakeform interactions, for example. It also changes how Painter's Servant interacts with effects that cause it to lose all abilities.

cause now painter's servant and humility work together ;)

If that is true, then Humility deserves a maindeck spot. Can anyone else verify this is true? E-Dragon loses some functionality, but not much, as you either have your 1x Humility or you don't.

Humility takes care of Pridemage and tons of other odd creatures too.





peace,
4eak

[Valtrix]

Wouldn't it not matter, since either way painter turns everything one color, then humility takes that ability away (returning everything to regular colors), or humility removes the ability so that it can never apply to begin with?

[Van Phanel]

It does matter.

To find out what a permanent's actual characteristics are, you start with what is written on them. Then you go through the layers (one by one) and see if anything changes.

In our example (Painter's servant + Humility) it goes as follows:

Layer1: nothing
Layer2: nothing
Layer3: nothing
Layer4: nothing
Layer5: Everything becomes the chosen color.
Layer6: Painter's Servant loses its ability.
Layer7: All creatures are 1/1.

But Humility doesn't retroactively change what Painter does, it just takes the ability away.

[Maëlig]

cause now painter's servant and humility work together ;)
Completely missed this. :eek:
Assuming it is true, it does change things quite a bit imo, humility being such a great control card (even without manlands). I would go as far as to say it probably deserves multiple (most likely 3) slots MD, assuming you build the deck around it (in which case you want some backup).
This makes genju of the fields a very nice singleton MD tutor target. Elspeth and DoJ also looks like increasingly attractive options.

On another note, I'm currently playing the following SB-package against CB :
1 Aura of Silence (tutor target)
3 Ray of Distortion
I'm thinking of changing it to a playset of auras, but I'm a bit scared of the increasing number of 3cc seeing play, making it hard to resolve an aura with an active CB on the table. Has someone already tried this?

[pandabaer]

if it will not toallly change the deck it will at least give people the option to play a cheaper version without moat

[Carabas]

Does Saltblast deserve any consideration here?

Saltblast-3WW
Sorcery
Destroy target nonwhite permanent.

It can take out Goyf, it can work as a disenchant against most things that bother us, it can kill Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold to stop some stupid recursion tricks, it can kill goyf, bob... the list goes on. It'd be a sideboard slot, probably in place of some number of rays of distortion.

[Unknown2]

i've run 2 aura of silence and 3 ray in my SB for months now and have had no problems with it. I would not increase the aura number at all, though.

[ykpon]

if it will not toallly change the deck it will at least give people the option to play a cheaper version without moat

Moat is even better if you use Humility :smile:

[Valtrix]

I don't see why we would want to play saltblast as removal when we already have a lot of great answers in the main (halo/ring), and as a sideboard card it seems subpar versus more effective/efficient hate that we could bring in versus specific decks. I'd rather have ray to use twice against things I really need it against, versus something that has more targets. I don't want to side for variety, since I should have plenty of that already. I'm also not sure what you would exactly want to side out for it anyway, since you have the effective board hate, and a lot of the answers in the main are already pretty useful against anything you'd want to side it in against.

Also, it's really bad when painter is set on white :P

[Roman Candle]

Does Saltblast deserve any consideration here?

Saltblast-3WW
Sorcery
Destroy target nonwhite permanent.

It can take out Goyf, it can work as a disenchant against most things that bother us, it can kill Academy Ruins/Volrath's Stronghold to stop some stupid recursion tricks, it can kill goyf, bob... the list goes on. It'd be a sideboard slot, probably in place of some number of rays of distortion.

99% of the time this'll just be a Ray of Distortion that won't Flashback. You have enough ways to handle creatures.

[Valtrix]

Also, this gets countered by counterbalance with force of will, which is pretty bad in my opinion.

[Valtrix]

I know double posts suck, but I have something about boarding that's really been on my mind, about sideboarding:

I love isochron scepter, but sometimes I'm really not sure its usefulness past the first game because of artifact hate/bounce, and I really don't want to have somebody 2-for-1 me with this deck particularly. However, we already have a lot of other targets, and thus it's not a complete issue, I still wonder. I've been siding it out a lot in favor of things that will do something and not get me 2-for-1ed (ray, aura, story circle)

What are thoughts on boarding for scepter? Take 2, 1, or 0 out against things that you know have hate for you?

On another note, what are thoughts on playing grindstone early, so that we only need 5 mana to combo out/6 mana to protect servant. I think that preboard it's usually pretty safe to play grindstone early, since you have plenty of other things that they need to save removal for that can end the game. Post-board it's a little riskier, but at the same time if they try to disrupt your combo, then it leaves you open for more control.

[Fossil4182]

Could Elspeth, Knight-Errant be a faster win condition than Sacred Mesa if they somehow stop the PainterStone combo? I know Mesa can make 2/2 flyers but its extremely mana intensive and doesn't do well if you need to start dropping threats around turn 4-5 as it will tie up too much mana prevent you from casting other spells as opposed to Elspeth which is less likely to get hit with CB and doesn't need a lot of help after its resolved.

[Roman Candle]

Could Elspeth, Knight-Errant be a faster win condition than Sacred Mesa if they somehow stop the PainterStone combo? I know Mesa can make 2/2 flyers but its extremely mana intensive and doesn't do well if you need to start dropping threats around turn 4-5 as it will tie up too much mana prevent you from casting other spells as opposed to Elspeth which is less likely to get hit with CB and doesn't need a lot of help after its resolved.

Sacred Mesa is tutorable. You only really need to go for it late game, since Quinn is pretty good at stalling.

[Nekrataal]

I was playtesting Quinn and it is a blast to play and surprisingly good (for me) also against decks packing counters. So I will bring Quinn to a tourney on Sunday (~25 ppl, expecting a lot of Aggro: Folks, Sligh, Zoo). In my playtesting EXP it became obvious that a lot of ppl do not know how to play the deck and once they are chanted and Pianter/Grindstone comes down they go "Argh, it is a combo deck". However I expect Game 2 to become much harder. when ppl pack their SB hate which will be at least 3 Grips usually. Sadly my feeling is that I have alot against aggro that can be sideboarded but not much against control or combo, whoch leaves me with a lot of dead mainboard cards eventually taht can not be replaced via SB. Even in theory this is hard because white lacks the cards or am I wrong on that?

Here is a current list derived from 4eeks one to utilize Humility under the new layer rulings:

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TP] Humility
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [10E] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [4E] Disenchant
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance
SB: Metaslots: 1x Humility, 1x Story Circle, 1x Spiritual Focus (wanted to pack something against Discard/Black Aggro)

[LostButSeeking]

Sadly my feeling is that I have alot against aggro that can be sideboarded but not much against control or combo, whoch leaves me with a lot of dead mainboard cards eventually taht can not be replaced via SB. Even in theory this is hard because white lacks the cards or am I wrong on that?

White has a lot of good ways to deal with combo. You’re running a LOT of them maindeck; trust me that Quinn is NOT a deck that rolls over and dies to combo. The problem is that your sideboard cards against combo are combo deck specific. What you want against (say) dredge is different than what you want versus belcher, ANT, solidarity or whatever. What’s the popular combo in your meta? You don’t have to have sideboard answers for all decks, just the decks you play games against.

[Shawon]

I've been thinking. Wouldn't the MD Halos be better served as additional Humilities? I've been toying with both Quinn and Rifter 2.0 and from my experience against aggro, Humility is practically 100% gg against them, combined with your other aggro-ass-kicking cards of course.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~




// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TP] Humility
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [REW] Powder Keg
SB: 1 [10E] Rule of Law
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [4E] Disenchant
SB: 1 [WL] Abeyance

I think you should cut the 4th Tutor for the 3rd Dragon. 3 Tutor is consistent enough (and you effectively run at least 2 copies of each of your bullets) and E. Dragon is really helpful in finding your land-drops.

If you can, you might also want to fit the SB Decree MD. Decree of Justice is an amazing Game 1 card, whether it be in Landstill, Quinn, or Rifter. It catches people by surprise and it's effectively never a dead draw. I would go up to 2 maximum.

Wouldn't Ray of Distortion be better than Disenchant in this deck, or are you looking for a cheap answer? I think Seal of Cleansing is a better answer, since you tutor for it, as well as Abolish, because it can dodge Counterbalance, and you can freecast it. Perhaps 2 Disenchant -> Seal of Cleansing + Abolish = 2 Abolish?

[Valtrix]

About Humility:
I also don't feel like humility in any way replaces halo. No damage from one threat on turn 2 is usually a lot better than taking 1 damage from a few threats later in the game. I don't think you should ever cut all halos, because it's an incredibly versatile tutor card that I've never been disappointed to draw. (Also it all but guarantees that we have enough tools to beat combo.)

Although I haven't played with humility in a deck ever, I'm no so convinced that it deserves a spot in Quinn. Unlike decks such as rifter and landstill, we don't actually have a way to stop those 1/1s besides are regular removal, in which case we should have just removed the threats in play to begin with. It's sometimes hard for Quinn to stabilize fast enough, so still taking 1 damage from multiple sources is going to hurt us. As such I question using humility in this deck, unless we start playing Elspeth/decree/something. One mesa is hardly enough.

Though, it's entirely possible I'm looking at humlity's purpose wrong. I can see it being marginally useful against zoo...But pretty much any other kind of aggro is still going to have multiple threats on board. Having pulse definitely makes the card a lot better, though.

About Pulse of the Fields:
I haven't got a chance to throw this card around yet, but I'm starting to think that it's a great tool for us. 3 definitely feels like too many. I know that I'd like to just run 1 field, but I think it may be good enough now to run 2. The chances that we'll see both is actually pretty unlikely, so that's probably good. What I really like is that this screws anything with burn spells hardcore (burn, zoo, sligh), and since I've seen them on the rise it seems good. I also think that against random things it can help us stabilize, and this is essentially dealing with one creature a turn, since most things don't get above 4 :)

@Nekrataal's list:
Decree of justice was never actually that useful for me when I played it. I didn't like it as a win condition, because it was so slow, and as a stall mechanism it just really sucked. I feel that by the time we have enough mana to make it useful we might as well play mesa, or should just be able to combo out. I feel like we have better things to play.

See, I think that 3 dragon is too much. I'd rather run an extra land over the 3rd dragon. I think he's useful for shuffling and mana, but we're already so mana hungry that we don't always want to have to pay 2 to get a land. That can be a real pain, and multiple dragons really don't help us.

Now about the 3 vs 4 tutor, I'm a bit unsure. I'm such a huge fan of tutor, though I understand it's card disadvantage, and people with more play experience than me with the deck recommend only 3.

There is no reason to run another abeyance in the board. If you don't want to run 3 main, then just run 2. There's never a time where you want to side in abeyance against something where a different control card in your board would be better. Likewise, I think the same about keg. Disenchant was talked about, and I agree. We have plenty of general artifact/enchantment hate, but what we're really concerned about is counterbalance. In that respect aura of silence and ray are the best two solutions to it.

I also think ethersworn canonist is a much better answer against combo than rule of law, because it's not only cheaper, but gives them a clock. Also, decks playing duress can't get rid of it if it's in your hand to start. I occasionally board it in if I think I need a blocker too, but that's pretty rare. Sometimes our answers can be too slow.

I would go:
-1 abeyance
-2 disenchant
-1 powder keg
-1 rule of law
+1 ethersworn canonist
+1 story circle
+2 ray of distortion'
+1 (Other; I'm a fan of open the vaults, though I haven't played with it yet. More on that later.)

Gah, I have a lot more to write about, but I think this post is about long enough now :)

[Mono_Thematic]

See, I think that 3 dragon is too much. I'd rather run an extra land over the 3rd dragon. I think he's useful for shuffling and mana, but we're already so mana hungry that we don't always want to have to pay 2 to get a land. That can be a real pain, and multiple dragons really don't help us.

So paying 2 colorless is too much for a land, but paying 4 isn't? (2 to activate scrying sheets, 1 for the scrying sheets itself, 1 for SDT). Don't get me wrong I think you're right, thats why I don't run E-Dragon or Scrying Sheets (I splash Blue for real card drawing.)

[Valtrix]

Paying 4 for a land from sheets is so different different, because

1) You're not trying to dig for land number three off sheets. You already have it.
2) Likewise sheets + plains is so much better an opening hand than dragon + plains.
3) That's card advantage. You're getting sheets + a second land. Dragon is just netting you one land.
4) Sheets is more reasonable to reuse.
5) You want to use top anyway. :P

[Nekrataal]

@LostButSeeking I think that Dregde ist most common as a combo deck. And I axpect a lot of Tribal, Sligh, Zoo aggro and the usual ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh UGx with or without CounterTop.

@Shawon Halos for me felt also like the weakest card main but sometimes it buys a lot of time (e.g. namimg Goyf). Decree, well, I would follow the arguments from Valtrix that it is used more defensive and if so its not very good. Ray of Distortions is much better of cause, so this it'll be.

@Valtrix Thanks for your comment (as well to the others). Against creature heavy decks Pulse really shined in my case because if they get through some damage early on you can compensate if the game has been stalled to get out of Burn range. Especially with Humility it negates the low amount damage that they can still get through.

I was also thinking about 3 Dragons because I play one Land less then seems to be recommended in latest builds I saw but then most games I didnt win via Dragons but via Mesa or the Mill Combo. The Dragon is just too slow and is wiped out by a single Swords.

I didnt feel that 4 Tutors were too much especially when I look at my SB with a lot of One-Offs. On the other hand another free slot is never bad. The nearest thing I would fill it with is Abeyance right now. So it gets out of the board. I initially put the thrid Abeyance there and actually thought about a second against control ... but 3 main should be OK as well. What do you think?

Canonist sounds better than Rule of Law since it can be tutored as well, played for 1 less, is Duress-save. Usually Combo plays bounce I guess to get rid off nasty cards in their way so this disadvantage is shared between both cards.

Open the vaults sounds nice although it costs a lot and should be backuped by a Chant probably. Then it is Quinn's Replenish. It is at least way better then Roar of Reclamation which costs more and does less, but is Argivian Find still worth a SB slot?

Right now the decks looks like this:

// Lands
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains

// Creatures
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant

// Spells
3 [8E] Wrath of God
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
1 [LG] Moat
1 [TP] Humility
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor / 3rd Abeyance
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [7E] Sacred Ground (=> CoW seems to be better since you can recover later from an early attack on your landbase)
SB: 1 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [SC] ------ Decree of Justice (unsure)
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [10E] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [4E] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [WL] ------Argivian Find (unsure)
SB: 1 [TP] ----- Humility (not sure a second is really necessary)
SB: 2 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SC] Spiritual Focus

Other possible choices: Ghostly Prison (another anti aggro card), Defense Grid (feels weak), Powder Keg (still unsure here because it is good against Dredge), Karma, 1-2 Path to Exile ...

[Valtrix]

My thoughts on open the vaults is that it would be useful to overwhelm control. IE, they counter an O-ring, destroy a halo, then you play vaults to get yourself some card advantage, which makes it so hard for them to deal with you. And since it's control you can afford to get up to 6/7/8 land for vaults + protection. I haven't tested it at all, but I think that it could be a really stellar card for our board.

I don't think argivian deserves a spot in the board though, since while it can get your bullets back, we still have plenty of things can function just as well. If anything with argivian find, I'm thinking about going to 1 grindstone/1 argivian find in the main, though I think that that's probably worse than just 2 grindstones.

Oh, and spiritual focus is unnecessary. You should be able to beat anything that wants to run enough discard to get to you anyway.

[NERER0CKET]

Hows the Burn matchup for this deck, is it so bad that I should find a place foe pulse the fields MD?

[Valtrix]

[Notice: I haven't actually played the burn matchup, but these are my thoughts on it]
Well, preboard it's not great. About the only thing relevant is runed halo, and you can just try and guess what they have.

Luckily price of progress is pretty useless for you, so that's a plus.

However, post board story circle makes them lose the game, so as long as you can survive until turn 4 you're probably okay. Chant and abeyance can both buy you a small amount of time if you need to. Likewise canonist can do a little bit.

However, if people start putting pulse in the main, then it should be almost impossible for them to win.

The moral of the story is that if burn is a huge concern for you, then play ivory mask in the board. Otherwise you're probably okay, since you have a fair shot

[NERER0CKET]

Just wondering, because I'm beginning to test against other legacy decks in my meta and burned just seemed troublesome. I'll take the 2-1 against burn lol. My only real concern in my meta is Team America, and ITF the rest of the decks I think I can play around.

If you are going to play find I think it should be played as a 2 of, it's a strong card that can pretty much recur your win-cons. I'm going to test it tonight to see how I like it.

Since I run 3 painter/3 stone in my build I'm probally going to cut 1 of each to play 2.

[Valtrix]

I feel like 2 argivian finds would be too much. Perhaps post board it's more useful, but a lot of times you're going to find that you don't have things in your graveyard and the find turns into a dead card, when you could have just had something right away.

What are you worried about in Team America? Halo shuts them down hardcore. Plus, we have so many answers to their threats, and we make so many cards of theirs dead (Snuff out, stifle, wasteland, and we can play around daze). Post board they bring in grip? Once again, I haven't played that matchup, but I can't see it being very good for them...

On the other hand ITF seems awful to play against, but I feel like the nice thing about Quinn is that we don't auto-lose to anything (That I can think of...)

[ykpon]

i don't think Pulse should be maindecked unless your meta is really very agressive. if you just dislike losing g1 against burn, add a singletone Rune of Protection: Red to your main deck. Story Circle and Pulse both can be too slow, especially on draw, while turn 1 Tutor into Rune in burn match up is almost gg even against a god hand. and the most important thing is that Rune is never dead being able just to replace itself with something useful when unneeded. and as a bonus it gives Find a nice ability to cycle for 3 and becomes a nice lock when you have Painter online (naming red) but somehow can't get your Grindstone. though, Pulse became a bit better since we got Humility, but i still don't like maindecking highly tailored cards which can't be tutored and/or cycled.
my other point is doubt on need of Wraths of God in this deck anymore. how about cutting them and at the same time increasing number of Humilities and Moats to 2-3? it works in Dutch Stax, so it should work in Quinn even better because of our access to good Tutors they can't play because of Chalices. any thoughts?

[Valtrix]

Well, I really don't think that humility necessarily deserves a spot in this deck. In all other decks that people are comparing it to, they actually have creatures that can be used to jump block those 1/1s. We just don't, so still having creatures on the board after humility comes into play just sucks. I think I would have something that actually stops creatures from getting to us, because we're still going to have to deal with them in some way. I don't think it's really helping us stabilize, but rather just slowing down how fast we die. (Which I know is what a lot of cards here, but I hope it's clear what I mean by this.)

I think I would always play as many moats as I could find, but the main problem is their price tag that most people don't want to shell out for. Since we're running tutors it's like we're running 4 moats already.

And in a similar vein I was talking to a friend about pulse of the fields. He was wondering in what situations having a pulse would be better than just having something like wing shards, wrath, or even story circle or ensnaring bridge. It feels incredibly mana intensive and honestly, I wasn't able to answer his question. Now, I haven't had a chance to play with pulse, but that line of thinking makes sense to me, and while pulse looks good, perhaps we don't really need it. Thoughts on this?

[Shawon]

The advantage of Pulse as defense against decks like Burn, Goyf Sligh, and Zoo is that it's not a permanent which can be destroyed by Grip and Pridemage. It's just supplementary defense against those decks. Pulse is good in that it gains life immediately. It's funny, I always thought Ajani Goldmane was totally better than Pulse in every way until I got owned by Goyf Sligh today. Either the life gain was too slow, or he had a Lavamancer that made it too risky to play Ajani. But yeah, it's only SB material.

[TOGITwill]

I think you're looking at the usefulness of Humility in the wrong way. You have to realize that Humility is also serving as a way to protect your other Artifacts/Enchantments from all of the creature-based removal that's so popular in Qasali Pridemage and his brethren. Seems like a pretty good deal to me.

[beastman]

With the rise in popularity of zoo and goyf sligh, and the removal of mana burn, isn't pulse at least an auto 2 of in the board, with maybe even 1 main?

[Nekrataal]

Zoo also is the aggro matchup where I have the most respect. I played GoyfSligh RGw + Pridemages + Grip SB in the last tourney and this could give Zoo the possibilities to force through the last damage by breaking our defenses. Humility seems good against Pridemages.

[Xero]

And in a similar vein I was talking to a friend about pulse of the fields. He was wondering in what situations having a pulse would be better than just having something like wing shards, wrath, or even story circle or ensnaring bridge. It feels incredibly mana intensive and honestly, I wasn't able to answer his question. Now, I haven't had a chance to play with pulse, but that line of thinking makes sense to me, and while pulse looks good, perhaps we don't really need it. Thoughts on this?

Its obviously better than Shards and Wrath against burn spells. Story Circle is vulnerably to enchantment kill and is almost as mana-intensive.

[bowvamp]

Its obviously better than Shards and Wrath against burn spells. Story Circle is vulnerably to enchantment kill and is almost as mana-intensive.

Yeah, but Story Circle only has to be played once. Every time you play pulse you hope that they don't TD a counter...

[Xero]

What deck plays lots of burn and counterspells? Tempo Thresh plays 4 bolts and a few Fire//Ice, that's it. You'd obviously be bring Pulse in against Zoo/Sligh/Burn decks.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

How is Pulse really better than Martyr of Sands, which is a lot less mana intensive?

[bowvamp]

Well there's that new tempo zoo deck... jk jk

Anyways, I guess I was just pointing out that Story Circle is more versatile and therefore could conceivably replace the Pulse of the Fields slot.

[Valtrix]

So, in a perfect world where moats are released in M11 and don't cost $100, how do you think would be the ideal number to run?

I feel that multiple moats is definitely better than 1, though 4 perhaps too many. I wouldn't know, since I don't actually have the card right now, so I haven't gotten to play with it.

[MTG-Fan]

So, in a perfect world where moats are released in M11 and don't cost $100, how do you think would be the ideal number to run?

I feel that multiple moats is definitely better than 1, though 4 perhaps too many. I wouldn't know, since I don't actually have the card right now, so I haven't gotten to play with it.

You could run, uh Magus of the Moat.

Please don't punch me.

[Valtrix]

I'll pretend like that wasn't a serious answer :P

Though, my question was indeed serious. I may have resources to run multiple, but I want to know what would be ideal first.

[TOGITwill]

I'd say it depends on how many Enlightened Tutors you play and how relevant Moat is in your meta.

[Roman Candle]

Play 1. There's no reason to play more if you play 3 Enlightened Tutors, especially since its completely dead against some decks.

[jjjoness']

So, in a perfect world where moats are released in M11 and don't cost $100, how do you think would be the ideal number to run?

I feel that multiple moats is definitely better than 1, though 4 perhaps too many. I wouldn't know, since I don't actually have the card right now, so I haven't gotten to play with it.

I've been toying around with 1 Moat and 2 Humility which turned out quite good. I never felt like I needed multiple Moats, since Humility was better most of the time. Being able to shut down Pridemage and Harmonic Sliver is huge. Also with Elspeth you can deal with 1/1s quite well. Also, how about running a single Ivory Mask against burn?

[Roman Candle]

I've been toying around with 1 Moat and 2 Humility which turned out quite good. I never felt like I needed multiple Moats, since Humility was better most of the time. Being able to shut down Pridemage and Harmonic Sliver is huge.

I'm actually kind of iffy on Humility... I don't know what to cut, for one, and it doesn't really do much that this deck isn't good at. I'm also worried about the curve.

I'm a big fan of Humility, but I'm not sure I'm loving it in this deck.

EDIT: Perhaps I should explain. The deck runs Wraths, StP's, Runed Halos, Moat, and Oblivion Rings. You don't have problems with creatures, really. The only real problematic creature is Qasali, but honestly, I would just run Paths before Humility to deal with Qasali. Unlike other control decks, we don't have Mishra's Factory or Elspeth to take advantage of the Humility effect. This means we're still going to have to kill creatures with removal. And when you start adding Elspeth to the deck, you have to start taking away integral removal and toolbox pieces. Without Elspeth, Humility isn't doing much. Granted, it may slow the beats down, but I feel like more removal would just do that better.

Also, how about running a single Ivory Mask against burn?[/QUOTE]

I would rather run Martyr of Sands. Or failing that, Pulse of the Fields. Or, failing that, Genju. Or, failing that, Ajani. Or, failing that, Exalted Angel. Or, failing that Honden of the Cleansing Fire.

In that order.

[jjjoness']

// Lands
19 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant

// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
2 [WL] Abeyance
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [SHM] Runed Halo
2 [7E] Wrath of God
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [TE] Humility

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MI] Sacred Mesa
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 2 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 3 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice

That's what I've been playing. It's kinda cool, although it still needs more testing to give a statement whether it's worth it, or not.
I really didn't miss Sacred Mesa as a wincondition main and the additional land turned out to be really good and reduced my mulligans drastically. The 3rd O-Ring would be cool but I don't know where to squeeze it in. Also I've been less and less pleased with Runed Halo, so I considered completely dropping it.

[4eak]

@ jjjoness

I wouldn't run more than 1 Humility. You should cut one. It is extremely good to have around, often times being even stronger than Moat, but with Tutor, I don't think you need 2, and concerning how tight the deck has become, I don't think you can afford the slot.




peace,
4eak

[Nekrataal]

So I am back from the tourney. Unfortunately I could play only three games. My wife came back one flight earlier so I had to catch her up at the airport :/

Anyhow three rounds I played 1:2

Round 1: Goblins Rbg.

Boy, I thought that should have gone better.
Game 1 I sowrd is Lackey, then drop a Scepter with Swords. My opponents keeps on laying Goblins so although I remove a Piledriver and this new Goblin King from M10 to remove Haste from his guys I quickly go down to 8. He can play two Ringleaders to fill up his hand in two subsequnt turns and a matron to fetch this Goblins from Ravnica that destroys an artifact if you pay a green mana. So my Scepter has to go and I need to Wrath of God the next turn already at 4. Unfortunetly he brings down another guy that gives Haste (Warchief) and can play 3 other Goblins to attack for 8 :/ I had one Pulse in hand put ... it was not enough.

Game 2 I expected Grips and hoped he wouldnt draw into them too soon. From the SB I brought in 2 Story Circles for Abeyance. He cannot play anything the first 2 turns but I can play Scepter Chant which gets gripped Turn 3. Then I starts playing Goblins and attacks. I can sword one Haste guy and then play CoP: Red. It gets gripped the next turn :/ I die 2 turns later.

So in the end: 0:2

Round 2: Counter Mill

More of a fun deck but playing around 12 Counters, Glimpse and that new Mill spell from M10. Game 1 is quite easy I play Grindstone when he has no mana open. He doesnt have a Fow. Then I play Servant next turn with Chant backup. He gains one turn by stifling Grinstone's ability but then dies the subsequent turn. So ended Game 1.

Game 2 takes longer because he has more Counterspells this time and also play Painter Grindstone Combo. He has milled me to 17 cards and extirpated Scepter when I can bring down Servant and Grindstone. He again stifles Grindstone the first turn and then dies the next.

Round 3: TES

I can peek at some red SB cards and assume he is playing some kind of Slighdeck, so I keep a hand with 3 Stops. Guess what happens. After I laid my first land I am comboed out Turn 2. So Game 1 ended quickly.

Game 2 I play Runed Halo on Tendrils Turn 2 which already gives him some headaches. I have Abeyance and Chant in hand and feel quite save. He tutors for Pact of Negation 2 times whereas I draw my second Chant. When he tries to combo it goes like this: Abeyance -> Pact of Negation, Orim's Chant -> Pact of Negation, Orim's Chant 2 -> no reaction. I win cause he cannot pay the Upkeep costs.

Game 3. I keep a hand with 1 Chant and 1 Abeyance. Unfortunately he combos Turn 2 and has Pact backup. He finds what he needs in Ad Nauseam and I die to Tendrils.

Result: 1:2

[Valtrix]

As I prepare this Saturday for a decent sized tournament, I've been preparing the following list (I've bolded things that may be of interest):

// Lands (22)
18 [CS] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets

// Creatures (4)
2 [SHM] Painter's Servant
2 [SC] Eternal Dragon

// Spells (34)
4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [WL] Abeyance
2 [MR] Isochron Scepter
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
3 [SHM] Runed Halo
1 [AT] Sacred Mesa
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
2 [TE] Grindstone
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [LG] Moat
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
1 [R] Wrath of God

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [10E] Story Circle
SB: 1 [SH] Sacred Ground
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 1 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [M10] Open the Vaults
SB: 1 Free

1) 4 O-rings: I expect there to be a fair amount of countertop and aggro-loam (Last month there was 2 counter-top and 1 loam in the top 8, as well as others in the field). As such, I think that the 4th O-ring should be useful for me. Although not the best for aggro loam, I need it for their chalices. Then again I can't say I've actually played these matchups with Quinn yet, so I don't exactly know how to deal with them best. Thoughts?

2) 2 E-dragon: I just really don't think 3 is necessary. I'd run the 19th land in place of a 3rd dragon, if that's deemed necessary.

3) 2 Pulse of the fields/1 wrath: I am a little unsure about this. Having only 1 wrath scares me a bit (I would like to run 2), but I didn't really want to cut anything else from the list. I'm also not sure if pulse is justifiable yet, but until I play with it I really have no idea exactly how it will turn out for me.

Sideboard
1) 2 Open the Vaults: I am very intrigued by this card. While I am unsure of how useful it will be, I definitely would like to try at least two of these in the board.

2) 1 Free-slot: Unsure what to do with this yet. I know a lot of people have at least 1 mesa/decree in the board, but I simply don't think I ever want to side it in. I'm always a little underwhelmed by mesa. In fact, I almost want to try hoofprints of the stag in the main over mesa for the simple fact of it being playable "early" game, although I know that it's (most likely) an awful idea.

3) 2 Story circle: Since I have pulse, it's conceivable that I just go down to 1 cirlce, though I'm unsure. Thoughts?

4) 3 aura/1 ray: I'm not quite sure how much artifact/enchantment hate is necessary, or what the right combination is. I like the "synergy" of aura and vaults, because it pretty much negates any bonus they may get from it, though I don't necessarily know if I should get rid of it completely.

5) 1 Sacred Ground: How useful is this card, actually? I see it a lot, but I've never had a chance to use it, so I'm not sure.

Anyways, I have a friend who plays at the place more, so I'll try and bring in a more detailed metagame prediction, since that's a huge part of a few final tweaks in the main, and then how to assemble my board.

[Roman Candle]

I don't think Pulses are necessary maindeck, especially when you're cutting Wraths for them. If you're planning on playing Pulses anyway, cut an Oblivion Ring and a Runed Halo and put back in the Wraths. Without Wraths, you can't really capitalize on Pulse.

For the board, I highly doubt that 1-of Ethersworn Canonist is going to help with combo. I would either play more, or drop them entirely for something else.

Also, I think Ray of Distortion is much better than Aura of Silence, and at least 2 Sacred Grounds are necessary, because we flat-out lose to decks with 'Geddon effects. Even Sinkholes can be problematic.

[4eak]

I wouldn't be removing Wrath of God's for Pulses. Pulse is a card that only makes Wrath of God more valuable. Pulse forces them to overextend on the board, Wrath is the card that punishes them. Go back to 3 Wraths. Remove another card for Pulse if you actually want to play it.




peace,
4eak

[Valtrix]

Makes sense. See, I've been trying to trade for wraths (Since it's a staple that everybody should have, right? :P) and haven't been playing with them. I've been playing with ensnaring bridges for so long that I kind of forgot about wrath's usefulness. (Which, I kind of almost want to run 3 instead of wrath, to make vaults better in the board. I keep wanting more targets for it, since I don't have as much as I'd like. That said...I don't know) Yeah, I've thought about it more and just can't really see pulse helping that much, at least in the main. For now I'll use wrath.

Also, has anybody played more with elspeth? I remember using her once and liking her, but at the same time being not all that impressed. I'm contemplating cutting mesa/wrath and an o-ring from my list to fit in 2 Elspeth to try her again.

[Arne]

I've been playing this deck for a short period now and I must say that, in my meta, sacred ground is a must. I see a lot of Aggro Loam decks that win by simply building their board fast and playing a devastating dreams... With a sacred ground, they first have to get rid of the sacred ground before they can cast a dreams... Maybe I'm not playing the deck right against Aggro Loam but I keep losing to it due to d.dreams and lack of pressure/setting a clock.

[Nekrataal]

I don't think Pulses are necessary maindeck, especially when you're cutting Wraths for them. If you're planning on playing Pulses anyway, cut an Oblivion Ring and a Runed Halo and put back in the Wraths. Without Wraths, you can't really capitalize on Pulse.

For the board, I highly doubt that 1-of Ethersworn Canonist is going to help with combo. I would either play more, or drop them entirely for something else.

Also, I think Ray of Distortion is much better than Aura of Silence, and at least 2 Sacred Grounds are necessary, because we flat-out lose to decks with 'Geddon effects. Even Sinkholes can be problematic.

Thats why I played CoW because you might recover when CoW gets out in time. But anyway I didnt need it.

Wrath I think is needed especially for the Tribes matchup that play 18+ creatures. Pulse is not enough for that.

[ykpon]

I've been playing this deck for a short period now and I must say that, in my meta, sacred ground is a must. I see a lot of Aggro Loam decks that win by simply building their board fast and playing a devastating dreams... With a sacred ground, they first have to get rid of the sacred ground before they can cast a dreams... Maybe I'm not playing the deck right against Aggro Loam but I keep losing to it due to d.dreams and lack of pressure/setting a clock.

it's just one of the worst matchups this deck can have. preboard you can quite easily lock them with scepter-chant, but when they put their hands on Krosan Grips match becomes very unfavorable. sure, you can win getting a lot of permanents which are hurting them, but don't forget about their fast clock and burning wish into some kind of Tranquility. my plan now is Jesters Caping their Grips and then playing Scepter-Chant or Painter-Stone, but yeah, it's often too slow. when playing Rabid Wombat i somehow improved this matchup splashing sb Extirpates with a single Scrubland for Dragon, but i'm not sure it will work in Quinn.

[Arne]

it's just one of the worst matchups this deck can have. preboard you can quite easily lock them with scepter-chant, but when they put their hands on Krosan Grips match becomes very unfavorable. sure, you can win getting a lot of permanents which are hurting them, but don't forget about their fast clock and burning wish into some kind of Tranquility. my plan now is Jesters Caping their Grips and then playing Scepter-Chant or Painter-Stone, but yeah, it's often too slow. when playing Rabid Wombat i somehow improved this matchup splashing sb Extirpates with a single Scrubland for Dragon, but i'm not sure it will work in Quinn.

Yeah, imo that sounds really situational and, regarding the fact that everybody is struggling with their SB, It doesn't sound like a real plan...

My Sideboard has been a real pile.. I'm glad to have read this thread because it's really helped my SB strategy... (PotF; why didn't I think of that:eyebrow: )

[Roman Candle]

it's just one of the worst matchups this deck can have. preboard you can quite easily lock them with scepter-chant, but when they put their hands on Krosan Grips match becomes very unfavorable. sure, you can win getting a lot of permanents which are hurting them, but don't forget about their fast clock and burning wish into some kind of Tranquility. my plan now is Jesters Caping their Grips and then playing Scepter-Chant or Painter-Stone, but yeah, it's often too slow. when playing Rabid Wombat i somehow improved this matchup splashing sb Extirpates with a single Scrubland for Dragon, but i'm not sure it will work in Quinn.

The black splash seems narrow, to be honest, because Extirpate is good against exactly one card ever, and even then its not that great. The Jester's Cap plan doesn't seem that fantastic either. Aggro Loam probably isn't particularly favorable, but its winnable on a good draw. Scepter-Chant is still a beating postboard, since they still have only 3-4 outs to it and no way to dig at instant speed. You also get Crypt effects and Sacred Ground postboard.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you're having that much trouble with LftL, just run 4x Relic and/or Crypt in the board. Next to 1x Karmic Justice and Sacred Ground, it should be plenty.

[Arne]

yeah I know, I dind't get the chance to finish my SB so I went to the tourney without sacred grounds... I know it's winnable, I've played against aggroloam 2 times and went 1-1 and 1-2 (my win was postboard)...

The karmic justice seems like a cool SB card. Think I'll try it out. Thanks

[Gollus]

hi

i played this deck since the combo exists. i postet on MTGSalvation in the combothread. All suggestions were to put the combo in a controlish shell with force and so on put i said from the beginning it should be monowhite put nobody replyed to my post. Now The Mighty Quinn is a established Deck^^

My list looks like this:

Lands:
4 Scrying Sheets (standard)
18 Snow Covered Plains (standard)

Finisher:
2 Painter's Servant (standard)
2 Grindstone (standard)
2 Eternal Dragon (2 are enough)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant (not tested jet but i don´t like sacred mesa)

Control:
4 Orim's Chant (standard)
2 Abeyance (standard)
3 Runed Halo ( i like that card a lot)
3 Oblivion Ring (standard)
4 Enlightened Tutor (some argue that 3 should be enough but this is our best multifunctional tool, and you want always a seinseis top)
2 Wrath of God (standard)
4 Swords to Plowshares (standard)
1 Moat (standard)
1 Aura of Silence (this is my changing slot. once it was story circle but i like more maindeck answers to counterbalance)
4 Sensei's Divining Top (standard)
2 Isochron Scepter (standard)

SB:
1 Sacred Ground (standard)
2 Abeyance (anti combo is always good)
2 Wrath of God (swarm decks likes it)
2 Relic of Progenitus (standard)
3 Ray of Distortion (standard)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (again combo)
1 Warmth (against burn but not tested)
2 Story Circle (good against burn, aggro, aggrocontrol)
1 Humility (to shut down quasali pride mage and others)

But why to you guys like Pulse of the fields so much?
against aggro we already have a good matchup.
against burn is Story circle and maybe warmth better
against Combo and Control it is simply not needed.