[Deck] Quinn The Eskimo- Aka, The Mighty Quinn

[(nameless one)]

I agree with Schulz on Thunderstaff.

Thunderstaff + Humility trick is cute but we already have a damn good match up against aggro. Plus Thunderstaff is a dead card by itself.

[the Thin White Duke]

Only having one.
Chant is far superior of course and Silence is a card I'll definitely try out in this slot. But Abeyance cantrips (quite useful in a scepter) and is as effective as both against any counterspells (sadly it also doesn't cross Counterbalances) to force through a win condition.

Elspeth is a bomb. I can't even protect her, but still she wins me games. By now, I can't further specify that as I've played yet too few games.

I love Abeyance in traditional Wombat type MWC builds, but I think it should be relegated to side boards for Quinn.
Elspeth is tits. She may get taken out soon after you play her, but sometimes her purpose is to create a diversion and buy you some time. If you can get your opponent to concentrate on dealing with Elspeth and diverting attention to you for a turn or two (or more) then she's more than paid for her 4cc.

[kinda]

I checked deckcheck to try and figure out the what wombat is and it look the same as quinn...am I missing something? On a side note I put this deck together minus moat and will probably be playing it the next time I play legacy...which looks like in april. On that note...I don't really want to buy a moat but if I feel like it's really worth it I will. So I was looking at moat vs. humility in matchups and it looks like: (this is assuming that you won't be able to reasonably get both during a game most of the time)

Humility:
zoo
reanimator
survival decks with iona
really any deck with iona
pretty much any deck running qasali pridemage
decks running dark confidant along with enchantment/artifact hate
faeries/sea stompy/angel stomy/decks with flying win cons

moat:
goblin (slim to none in my meta)
merfolk (somewhat prevalent)
43 land (slime to none again)
aggro loam (not sure of prevalence)

So bascially I haven't done enough testing to come to any conclusions so...
1) how does everyone feel about the merfolk matchup?
2) despite pridemage do people still tutor up moat against wgx?

Oh also...as far as wrath is concerned, does everyone feel it's quick enough on the draw? I remember feeling that it was too slow even during ravnica era standard against zoo.

Edit: Oh and did anyone try cenn's enlistment as a 1-2 off to go with humility and the land draw engine?

[lordofthepit]

I checked deckcheck to try and figure out the what wombat is and it look the same as quinn...am I missing something? On a side note I put this deck together minus moat and will probably be playing it the next time I play legacy...which looks like in april. On that note...I don't really want to buy a moat but if I feel like it's really worth it I will. So I was looking at moat vs. humility in matchups and it looks like: (this is assuming that you won't be able to reasonably get both during a game most of the time)

Humility:
zoo
reanimator
survival decks with iona
really any deck with iona
pretty much any deck running qasali pridemage
decks running dark confidant along with enchantment/artifact hate
faeries/sea stompy/angel stomy/decks with flying win cons

moat:
goblin (slim to none in my meta)
merfolk (somewhat prevalent)
43 land (slime to none again)
aggro loam (not sure of prevalence)

So bascially I haven't done enough testing to come to any conclusions so...
1) how does everyone feel about the merfolk matchup?
2) despite pridemage do people still tutor up moat against wgx?

Oh also...as far as wrath is concerned, does everyone feel it's quick enough on the draw? I remember feeling that it was too slow even during ravnica era standard against zoo.

Edit: Oh and did anyone try cenn's enlistment as a 1-2 off to go with humility and the land draw engine?

I've had no intention of getting a copy of Moat ever since the M10 rules allowed Humility to play nicely with Painter's Servant. That's not to suggest there aren't instances where Moat wouldn't be useful, but I'd much rather run go without Moat than without Humility (and in fact, I'd rather run the second Humility than a Moat, despite the disadvantages of the redundancy).

[kinda]

Do you still run eternal dragon? I've found that I'm not satisfied with three shuffle effects...at the very least I think I'll up the tutors to 4.

[(nameless one)]

I didnt really need to shuffle with Quinn.

E Dragons are there to fetch me some Plains and recur them late game if I need them and Tutors are there to fetch me something that I need. I find that two is enough.

I am still skeptical on Abeyance since I am currently not running the Painter-Stone Combo. Its good as protection against something like Counter-Top or other non-storm combo shenanigans. But for the most part, its just there to give me a card.

[Schulz]

I didnt really need to shuffle with Quinn.

E Dragons are there to fetch me some Plains and recur them late game if I need them and Tutors are there to fetch me something that I need. I find that two is enough.

I am still skeptical on Abeyance since I am currently not running the Painter-Stone Combo. Its good as protection against something like Counter-Top or other non-storm combo shenanigans. But for the most part, its just there to give me a card.

What are you talking about? abeyace is good agaimst storm combo. "Until end of turn, target player cannot play instants, interrupts sorceries, or abilities requiring an activation cost. Draw a dard." -Abeyance. storm is instants and sorceries. the win cons are all sorceries. you can play after they get the storm count pretty high and before they play their win cons and now they are screwed.

[(nameless one)]

I actually meant combo in general... Not just non-storm. I must have been high when I typed that.

Another question: how low should my life be when I start to worry. Throughout my playtesting, I found that I've lost a match when the following happens: I get land screwed/my opponents destroy my mana-base or my opponent has that reach.

Should I worry if I haven't stabilized when I'm at 5 life? Would Pulse of the Fields on main help or is it too much?

[Pastorofmuppets]

So I'm new to this, but exactly WHY does this deck run itself in white? I mean, every color has its kill conditions, and every basic land comes in a snow form.

[(nameless one)]

I find that whenever I splash something with it to make more agressive, the deck just falters. Not enough defense and not enough win condition. I have also tried splashing blue and black for more control but it just doesn't synergize with the main control pieces anyways. Maybe I have been playing it wrong but I find the mono-white version fine. Also, splashing comes with duals to make it effective and less snow permanents doesn't really work out

On the other hand, when it comes to stalling, has anyone tested Sun Droplet or Convalescent Care? Possibly Pulse of the Fields on main?

[kinda]

So I'm new to this, but exactly WHY does this deck run itself in white? I mean, every color has its kill conditions, and every basic land comes in a snow form.

At one point in the thread IBA said he thought a U version might work...but it would be a different thread...Quinn is based aroudn the enlightened tutor toolbox.

[(nameless one)]

I find that whenever I splash something with it to make more agressive, the deck just falters. Not enough defense and not enough win condition. I have also tried splashing blue and black for more control but it just doesn't synergize with the main control pieces anyways. Maybe I have been playing it wrong but I find the mono-white version fine. Also, splashing comes with duals to make it effective and less snow permanents doesn't really work out

On the other hand, when it comes to stalling, has anyone tested Sun Droplet or Convalescent Care? Possibly Pulse of the Fields on main?


Also, the two mentioned are Tutorable while Pulse isnt.

Anyone?

[Pastorofmuppets]

At one point in the thread IBA said he thought a U version might work...but it would be a different thread...Quinn is based aroudn the enlightened tutor toolbox.

oh, I see. I had tried doing UQuin once, granted it was for the superbudget tournament. Didn't work out too well. I was actually thinking black, since it has the sweepers and the removal and the disruption and the Jell-O Pudding Pops.
EDIT: here's a half-assed sample list.

Lands 24
4 Scrying Sheets
17 Swamp
3 Dark Depths

Creatures 12
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Tombstalker
1 Razormane Masticore/Bloodghast

Sorcery 12
4 Sinkhole
4 Thoughtseize
2 Damnation
1 Raven's Crime
1 Syphon Life

Cool Guy Lock Combo: 7-8 slots
Contamination/Bitterblossom
Anvil/Chains
Rituals+Nether Void
et cetera
Or just Hymn and some other form of disruption.

Artifacts 4
4 Top

[Schulz]

@Pastorofmuppets

I think you're on the wrong thread dude

[Pastorofmuppets]

and why is this, Mr. Schulz? I had kind of mentioned half-assing a black deck with a Quinn Engine, maybe if I ever bother to test it out I'll post results.

[Schulz]

and why is this, Mr. Schulz? I had kind of mentioned half-assing a black deck with a Quinn Engine, maybe if I ever bother to test it out I'll post results.

Then start a new thread in developmental because that is an completely different deck. quinn is a mono white control.

[(nameless one)]

Then start a new thread in developmental because that is an completely different deck. quinn is a mono white control.


Not just any mono-white control, its a mono-white tutor toolbox control.'

Did anyone see Gideon Jura? Would he work for Quinn or would he like Elspeth?

[the Thin White Duke]

Gideon would be a perfect fit in a more traditional Wombat type build. If you're running the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo he's a superfluous; sideboard material at best.
I'm not running the combo win-con (too rich for my blood these days) but Gideon plays well with wrath effects, Humility. I'm excited about this guy, and excited about the plains walker win cons white has!

[clavio]

What is your opinion on running DOJ in the Sacred Mesa slot? It gives the deck much more presence under Standstill.

[(nameless one)]

Honestly, I have been piloting the deck without the Painter Stone combo win. I am currently running these as my win con:

2x Decree of J, 1x Marshal Coup, 1x Genju of the Fields, 1x Sacred Mesa, 2x E. Dragons.

Sometimes, I proxy 2x Painter's Servant and 2x Grindstone for 2x Decree, 1x Coup, 1x Genju and honestly, I actually miss them. Decree is so versitile and Coup acts as another Wrath effect late game with legs. Genju is the best defense along with an active Humility.

I am still working on getting my combo pieces but the way I play the deck, I find that my replacement win cons were actually more helpful in the deck.

And DoJ has actually help me steal games from Merfolks where-as if I had the Painter or Grindstone only, it would have been a lost game.

[the Thin White Duke]

Honestly, I have been piloting the deck without the Painter Stone combo win. I am currently running these as my win con:

2x Decree of J, 1x Marshal Coup, 1x Genju of the Fields, 1x Sacred Mesa, 2x E. Dragons.

Sometimes, I proxy 2x Painter's Servant and 2x Grindstone for 2x Decree, 1x Coup, 1x Genju and honestly, I actually miss them. Decree is so versitile and Coup acts as another Wrath effect late game with legs. Genju is the best defense along with an active Humility.

My deck is similar to yours, and I think Gideon would be a great fit. I have a couple Elspeth in my deck, but I may have to cut one (both?crazy?) to make room for Gideon. And then there's the matter of Ajani having around to put +1/+1 counters on Gideon. Maybe that's a bit too much/inefficient.

[kinda]

Gideon would be a perfect fit in a more traditional Wombat type build. If you're running the Painter's Servant/Grindstone combo he's a superfluous; sideboard material at best.
I'm not running the combo win-con (too rich for my blood these days) but Gideon plays well with wrath effects, Humility. I'm excited about this guy, and excited about the plains walker win cons white has!

Grindstone's are $22 a pop on starcitygames.com and you can preorder gideon at $30...hm...

[the Thin White Duke]

Grindstone's are $22 a pop on starcitygames.com and you can preorder gideon at $30...hm...

Oh man, thanks for urinating on my parade!
I'm just saying, if I happen to pull Gideon from a pack of ROE, great. I'll wait 'till he rotates out of standard to buy.
(plus you have to buy the servants to go with grindstone :wink:)

[(nameless one)]

Doesnt really help the thread but just to let yall know, this deck is awesome.

I just played the most mind-numbing game i have ever played ( I was in MWS for more than 2 fuckin hours)

I played against a Neo-Lands deck (43 w/ Valakut)

Game One... He got Loam going, then Valakut.... I kept stalling the best as I can but it wasnt enough. He got me to one. Then At the end of his turn, I toped, find Runed Halo. Next turn, I play Runed Halo on Valakut while I'm at 1.. he goes GG!

Game Two... I mull at five because MWS does not like me. I kept 3 Plains, a Pithing Needle and a Painter's Servant. Then the bad-luck didn't stop there. I kept getting Plains. I then found a Top but I kept topping on irrelevant stuff (mostly creature removal... I didnt sideboard because I dont sideboard when I playtest)... He got his Valakut going. He seemed to forget about the Servant. I never attacked with him, just there sitting, keeping a low profile. I tried stalling the best as I can but it seems that I cant Top into Story Circle or Runed Halo to protect me from Valakut. He got me to two when I topped into a Tutor. At end of his turn, I tutored for Grindstone and win the next turn. It was awesome!

The game took so long that I started playing 5 minutes before WV vs. Duke tipoff and was still playing after Duke won the game. I totally missed the whole thing but its worth it.

It was an epic game and I am still excited about it.... I have never felt this good about control before!

[the Thin White Duke]

It was an epic game and I am still excited about it.... I have never felt this good about control before!

Not just control, but Mono White control!
When I first started playing Wombat back in the day, there was nothing more satisfying than bringing games to a grinding halt; not with counter magic and other blue tricks, but with plain white hyjinks. Maybe I'm just an asshole that way, but I can still see the crestfallen looks on people's faces when they'd get paired with me...
A healthy dose of Bandages would be forthcoming...
I love going to time, still on the first game. Not so great for rankings, but just diabolically fun.

[stalkerzero]

Incredibly interested in building this. I've proxied it up and will be play testing all week before any decisions are made but the one question I have is, of course, the one all budget players have:

How integral is Moat to the deck? I understand how important it can be when you fail to resolve (or lose) a scepter lock and how badly it hoses a lot of decks when it hits the table but...

Can't even find one for sale let alone wanting to fork out $200 for a card that plays in very few decks when I'm attempting to re-start a collection.

[kinda]

Incredibly interested in building this. I've proxied it up and will be play testing all week before any decisions are made but the one question I have is, of course, the one all budget players have:

How integral is Moat to the deck? I understand how important it can be when you fail to resolve (or lose) a scepter lock and how badly it hoses a lot of decks when it hits the table but...

Can't even find one for sale let alone wanting to fork out $200 for a card that plays in very few decks when I'm attempting to re-start a collection.

I'm using an ensnaring bridge. Humility is what you want to go for anyway, the exceptions being merfolk and 43 land.

[Schulz]

I'm using an ensnaring bridge. Humility is what you want to go for anyway, the exceptions being merfolk and 43 land.

But ensnaring bridge seems bad with humility. I rarely ever have a zero card hand. i think if he doesn't have the moat he should just stick with humility and not worry about the moat effect.


@stalkerzero

What is the current list you are running?

[kinda]

But ensnaring bridge seems bad with humility. I rarely ever have a zero card hand. i think if he doesn't have the moat he should just stick with humility and not worry about the moat effect.


@stalkerzero

What is the current list you are running?

Having both humility and ensnaring bridge out early is very rare...they're both 1 of's. Also against decks where bridge is good I generally have no trouble playing out my hand. I wouldn't run bridge over moat, but it is a decent option.

[Combo Winter]

Is the new wall of blossoms playable as it fits right into the main theme of the deck. He seems quite good versus pretty much every matchup even vs combo it cycles for your answers.

[stalkerzero]

But ensnaring bridge seems bad with humility. I rarely ever have a zero card hand. i think if he doesn't have the moat he should just stick with humility and not worry about the moat effect.


@stalkerzero

What is the current list you are running?

Most recent list from the first page with this change:
-1 Moat
+1 Isochron Scepter

[(nameless one)]

But ensnaring bridge seems bad with humility. I rarely ever have a zero card hand. i think if he doesn't have the moat he should just stick with humility and not worry about the moat effect.


@stalkerzero

What is the current list you are running?

I agree with Schulz on this one. Ensnaring Bridge on its own is good but paired with Humility is pretty bad. I have tested this before and I actually did not like its result. I would rather have Thunderstaff with Humility to recreate that Moat effect but Thunderstaff by itself is pretty useless.

Has anyone tested Lightmine Field against decks that use little creatures such as Goblins?

Also, on my build, when I know that the Meta is pure aggro, this really helps:


- 2 Abeyance
- 2 Painter's Servant
- 2 Grindstone
+2 Renewed Faith
+2 Decree of Justice
+1 Marshal Coup
+1 Genju of the Fields

Has anyone tried this?

[stalkerzero]

Finally got to play test this deck. Played about three hours (20 games total). No sideboards in any matches. Played three games against CounterTop Progenitus. Each game was a fairly easy win (runed halo naming Progenitus or Swords everything that could be used to get it in to play).

Goblins was another story. Played the last 17 games against a typical Goblins deck. Overall probably ended at around 5-12. I don't think a sideboard would've made things any better for me (at least not better than what his would've made his match up). The wins I did get were mostly turn 2 Runed Halo naming Siege-Gang. Turn 4 Moat. The games I lost were all turn 3-4 lethal Goblins.

This raises a few fears. I know I'm new to playing the deck but Goblins is a very popular deck and so is Dredge and all I keep hearing about Dredge is how much faster it is than Goblins even.

Just looking for some input here I guess. Thinking of taking this to the May 9th tournament in Cleveland.

[(nameless one)]

Finally got to play test this deck. Played about three hours (20 games total). No sideboards in any matches. Played three games against CounterTop Progenitus. Each game was a fairly easy win (runed halo naming Progenitus or Swords everything that could be used to get it in to play).

Goblins was another story. Played the last 17 games against a typical Goblins deck. Overall probably ended at around 5-12. I don't think a sideboard would've made things any better for me (at least not better than what his would've made his match up). The wins I did get were mostly turn 2 Runed Halo naming Siege-Gang. Turn 4 Moat. The games I lost were all turn 3-4 lethal Goblins.

This raises a few fears. I know I'm new to playing the deck but Goblins is a very popular deck and so is Dredge and all I keep hearing about Dredge is how much faster it is than Goblins even.

Just looking for some input here I guess. Thinking of taking this to the May 9th tournament in Cleveland.

I would actually name Runed Halo on Goblin Piledriver. Try to aggressively use your Orim's Chant until you land a Humility. I would suggest Humility over Moat on Goblins as Siege-Gang Commanders can actually get there with a Moat. With Humility, their Gob-vantage is pretty useless (Goblin Ringleaders dont give them draws, Matrons dont help them tutor and Siege-Gang Commander is essentially a 1/1 for 5). Postboard Ghostly Prison is good against them. Although never tested, I would imagine that the new Lightmine Field would really be good against goblins. If you can manage to stall, It could be good against zombie tokens too. I would actually side out Runed Halo against Goblins.

I haven't really playtested against Dredge. I guess you can Chant-lock them (prevent them from attacking). I would imagine that pre-board, its an autolose as Grinding them does not really kill them due to dredge.

[kinda]

I would actually name Runed Halo on Goblin Piledriver. Try to aggressively use your Orim's Chant until you land a Humility. I would suggest Humility over Moat on Goblins as Siege-Gang Commanders can actually get there with a Moat. With Humility, their Gob-vantage is pretty useless (Goblin Ringleaders dont give them draws, Matrons dont help them tutor and Siege-Gang Commander is essentially a 1/1 for 5). Postboard Ghostly Prison is good against them. Although never tested, I would imagine that the new Lightmine Field would really be good against goblins. If you can manage to stall, It could be good against zombie tokens too. I would actually side out Runed Halo against Goblins.

I haven't really playtested against Dredge. I guess you can Chant-lock them (prevent them from attacking). I would imagine that pre-board, its an autolose as Grinding them does not really kill them due to dredge.

:laugh: I almost fell out of my chair laughing. So much win! I really don't know how to do damage control here...

@stalker: -1 Moat +1 scepter against the list on the frontpage isn't a good idea...especially since that list doesn't have a humility. On that note the lists on the frontpage are all pretty old. Scepter is slow against goblins. Against goblins you need runed halo (or swords with trigger on the stack) to stop sgc and moat to lock them out. Ghostly prison, humility, or ensnaring bridge can help here. One of those or moat are absolutely necessary against goblins.

[stalkerzero]

:laugh: I almost fell out of my chair laughing. So much win! I really don't know how to do damage control here...

@stalker: -1 Moat +1 scepter against the list on the frontpage isn't a good idea...especially since that list doesn't have a humility. On that note the lists on the frontpage are all pretty old. Scepter is slow against goblins. Against goblins you need runed halo (or swords with trigger on the stack) to stop sgc and moat to lock them out. Ghostly prison, humility, or ensnaring bridge can help here. One of those or moat are absolutely necessary against goblins.

Thanks. At this moment I am running the deck full proxied so I am playing the exact list from the first post (it is listed as the most up to date deck list from this thread).

Overall, I think I went in a bit too cocky against Goblins. Figured there was no way it could match the answers that this deck has.

Halo on Piledriver is a solid play but at that time I had a Moat in play and the ONLY way he could damage me was with Siege-Gang.

I guess it'll take a lot more play testing. I know this deck CAN beat Goblins. Just have to find what to look for in an opening hand.

A few of the games I lost just to pure luck. Like Lackey -> Swords, Lackey -> Swords, Lackey -> Oblivion Ring -> Lackey with no answer. Four lackey, one land, Ringleader, Warchief, hands aren't all that common.

[kinda]

Thanks. At this moment I am running the deck full proxied so I am playing the exact list from the first post (it is listed as the most up to date deck list from this thread).

Overall, I think I went in a bit too cocky against Goblins. Figured there was no way it could match the answers that this deck has.

Halo on Piledriver is a solid play but at that time I had a Moat in play and the ONLY way he could damage me was with Siege-Gang.

I guess it'll take a lot more play testing. I know this deck CAN beat Goblins. Just have to find what to look for in an opening hand.

A few of the games I lost just to pure luck. Like Lackey -> Swords, Lackey -> Swords, Lackey -> Oblivion Ring -> Lackey with no answer. Four lackey, one land, Ringleader, Warchief, hands aren't all that common.

Somewhere within the last 10 pages is IBA's most updated list. Humility is a must.

[Pastorofmuppets]

Since you guys are already packing the extra draw, you could use Island Sanctuary on the play it's major damage control vs. Goblins and Dredge, and it's not too bad on the draw I guess.
Although i wouldn't expressly replace it with Moat. Stupid Merfolk and their Islandwalk
Also, unrelated question. How the balls can Merfolk swim all the way to an Island Sanctuary but they can't cross a relatively tiny Moat?

[kinda]

Since you guys are already packing the extra draw, you could use Island Sanctuary on the play it's major damage control vs. Goblins and Dredge, and it's not too bad on the draw I guess.
Although i wouldn't expressly replace it with Moat. Stupid Merfolk and their Islandwalk
Also, unrelated question. How the balls can Merfolk swim all the way to an Island Sanctuary but they can't cross a relatively tiny Moat?

Read moat's flavor text, :eek:.

Edit: That card doesn't work since the deck needs to draw cards and anyone can alpha strike when u do. It's only good if you have 4 land, moat, and runed halo in you hand against goblins. You could though do solitary confinement as that can work for a bit off the scrying sheets engine. I wouldn't recommend it though...if you want to do that play terrageddon!!! life from the loam, cycling lands, solitary confinement.

[(nameless one)]

How do you play the mirrormatch?

Also, I just placed my order on Grindstones XD. Although throughout my testing, I find that my meta better suits the Marshal Coup/Decree of Justice/Genju of the Fields win-con :(.

Also, for meta purposes, I have replaced Abeyance with Renewed Faith and so far, it works.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I haven't really playtested against Dredge. I guess you can Chant-lock them (prevent them from attacking). I would imagine that pre-board, its an autolose as Grinding them does not really kill them due to dredge.

Maybe that works in fairytale land but where I play you need to have N cards in your library to dredge where N is the number of cards needed to put into your graveyard. (ie. Dredge 6: N = 6)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

My most recent list;



4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Kor Haven

1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant

SB:
3 Ray of Distortion
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Ground
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Karakas
1 Genju of the Fields
1 Runed Halo


This is the list I settled on after doing pretty poorly at an SCG 5K and reviewing the deck's weaknesses. None of this involved Goblins though. I thought that deck had dropped out of viability, to be honest. Story Circle would be a pretty good maindeck choice, I'd think, if it's a metagame concern. This list does improve the early game, however, so it should be a better performer there anyway.

[(nameless one)]

Maybe that works in fairytale land but where I play you need to have N cards in your library to dredge where N is the number of cards needed to put into your graveyard. (ie. Dredge 6: N = 6)

True as the 6 on Dredge is the cost of Dredge. If you cant pay for it, You cannot replace your draw.

Im such a noob :(.


My most recent list;



4 Scrying Sheets
18 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Kor Haven

1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Sacred Mesa
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant

SB:
3 Ray of Distortion
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Karmic Justice
1 Sacred Ground
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Karakas
1 Genju of the Fields
1 Runed Halo


This is the list I settled on after doing pretty poorly at an SCG 5K and reviewing the deck's weaknesses. None of this involved Goblins though. I thought that deck had dropped out of viability, to be honest. Story Circle would be a pretty good maindeck choice, I'd think, if it's a metagame concern. This list does improve the early game, however, so it should be a better performer there anyway.

I noticed that you dropped Runed Halo, Mr. Elgin. Through your testing, didn't you miss it's ability to render one of your opponent's win-con useless? Also, are you using Faith's Fetters strictly because of its life gain? The way I see it, its essentially an Oblivion Ring.

Also, I have been meaning to test Kor Haven but I currently only have one :( . Hows the two Kor Haven treating you? Does the legendary clause hurt when you draw multiples late game?

I find that having at 2 Humilities is good. I know its contradictory to my previous point but sometimes, it makes me sad when Humilities get Thoughtsiezed early game or face a Krosan Grip.

You should try Story Circle as it has saved my behind many many times. My budget list currently runs a single copy (it was supposed to be my Moat-alternative.

Speaking of my budget list, instead of running 2 Abeyance, 2 Painter's Servant, 2 Grindstones; I am using 2 Renewed Faith, 2 Decree of Justice, 1 Marshal Coup and a Genju of the Fields. I do have Abeyances and Painter's Servants. I find it really help against an aggro-dominated meta. I also find it helpful against other control decks. I find it frustrating when I have one of the combo pieces in my hand and I cant use it. At least the mentioned 'back up' actually have a "secondary purpose".

Also, I find a single Pithing Needle on main really helpful. It can shut down anything from Vials to Survivals. Worse comes to worst, you can shut down Wastelands to protect your non-basics or Mishra's Factories when you have an active Humility on the field.

[kinda]

The deck's not tier 1 but since it's fun and I have the pieces I will be playing it...ok minus karakas (I might get 1 and run an expedition map in the board)...probably in the May tournament. I think the uw enlightened tutor deck is basically the evolution of this...but for the tundraless of us I digress.

@nameless: The way I see it, fetters dodges counterbalance and hits counterbalance/jace...also the life gain can be relevant. And it looks like runed halo was cut since getting ww got a little harder? I'm unsure of the runed halo call as well, its been an mvp in testing...progenitus, tendrils of agony, mishra's factory (which dodges humility and wrath), seismic assault, sgc...

Anyway, in testing my biggest complaint has been a lack of shuffle effects to maximize top, so i'm going to be adding some fetches...I'm thinking 23 land: 4 scrying sheets, x w fetches, x snow covered plains. Any thoughts on how many? Too many and life gain/hurting via sheets becomes relevant...

My current list is IBA's except:

-2 snow covered plains, -2 kor haven (but I will test it), -2 path to exile, -1 sacred mesa

+3 marsh flats, +1 ensnaring bridge, +2 runed halo, +1 luminarch ascension (it might become mobilization)

[(nameless one)]

Isnt Oblivion Ring good enough in dodging Counterbalance? Oblivion Ring also hits Jace. I guess the life gain helps against aggro. I dont think its that hard to cast with WW, after all, its a mono-coloured deck.

I find that lack of shuffle effects could sometimes hurt. With my budget list, I did not mind it at all as my primary win-cons where also utility pieces. I did run 2x Eternal Dragon as a just in case shuffler.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Runed Halo is fantastic in testing. The problem is in tournaments, you're a lot less likely to have an opponent who tells you what they're playing.

I've never had much of a problem with lack of shuffle effects, but I'd rather run Dragons than fetchlands.

Faith's Fetters is for the life gain in part, and just to shore up removal. I found that basically I didn't have problems winning the late game; I was having problems getting to the late game. Thus, this list was an attempt to fix that. Kor Haven in particular I've been very, very happy with. It's like a Maze of Ith in terms of forcing the opponent into Wrath, but obviously without fucking up your mana development.

[(nameless one)]

Hello Quinn Folks!

I have been working with this list:




18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
1 Kor Haven

2 Eternal Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle

4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Renewed Faith

2 Decree of Justice
2 Wrath of God
1 Day of Judgement
1 Martial Coup


So far, that list has been really good against aggro and does okay against control for me. Of course with the tweak, I weakened my match up against combo. I didn't mind because Combo is virtually non-existent in my meta.

I was thinking of having Painter-Stone combo and Abeyances from the side. Maybe my mulliganing skills suck but I never liked seeing these 3 cards by themselves. Sometimes, I dont mind Abeyances but when facing a non-blue aggro deck, they seem to be just a cantrip card. I replaced it with Renewed Faith because of all the Aggro decks in my area. With my playtesting both on paper and on MWS, Renewed Faith has saved my behind enough times.

Any comments on my current build?

[NiRVeS]

I like the list, although I would personally never play this deck without any sort of combo-finish - it's those few extra "free wins" that really push your percentages to a level where I would feel comfortable playing this (over landstill, for example). If painter/stone is not an option, I would use these slots for elspeths. But those aren't exacly budget-friendly either.

Do you keep track of time while testing? Have you experienced problems finishing your blue matchups in 50 minutes? When playing a list like yours, I would definitely try to keep that factor in mind.

Grtz Tom

[(nameless one)]

Hi Tom,

Whenever I play against aggro decks, it feels like the combo pieces are dead by themselves. Where as my 'alternate' win conditions serve as a double purpose. I did just ordered Grindstones. I do like Elspeth too but I gotta save up for her. I was thinking of having the combo coming from the side. One of the things I've noticed is that when I play te combo game 1, my opponent seems to always be ready against it on games 2/3. Having it to come out of the side gives that surprise factor. I am still working on my sideboard if I want to do that.

With my non combo win condition, I never had any problems with time. But then again, my meta doesn't have Landstill. On my playtesting via MWS, I did find that Landstill to be a really long game. The problem is that they seem to be better late game.

[(nameless one)]

Hi Tom,

Whenever I play against aggro decks, it feels like the combo pieces are dead by themselves. Where as my 'alternate' win conditions serve as a double purpose. I did just ordered Grindstones. I do like Elspeth too but I gotta save up for her. I was thinking of having the combo coming from the side. One of the things I've noticed is that when I play te combo game 1, my opponent seems to always be ready against it on games 2/3. Having it to come out of the side gives that surprise factor. I am still working on my sideboard if I want to do that.

With my non combo win condition, I never had any problems with time. But then again, my meta doesn't have Landstill. On my playtesting via MWS, I did find that Landstill to be a really long game. The problem is that they seem to be better late game.

[NiRVeS]

My experience with landstill is that it all depends on the list they're playing, and the amount of boardcontrol they play/see. For example, if they're playing a basic UWb version, then your main concerns are 3-4 vindicates, 2 engineered explosives and maybe a wishtarget. I figure that shouldn't be too much of a problem. On the other hand, when they're playing the 4cc build with more manlands, deeds and academy ruins/explosives-lock, then I think we'd be thoroughly screwed.

But tbh, the matchups where time becomes a mayor issue (for me, at least) are counterbalance. You're both wasting horrible amounts of time topping and digging for stuff, and although you have plenty of tools to stop them from killing you, getting the win yourself is terribly difficult. So far, the only matches I've won in a tournament setting where those where
a) My opponent drew blanks for 2 games straight
b) I got them with scepter-chant game 1 and luck out game 2
c) Sacred Mesa/Dragon beats game 1 and drawing g2.

Lmk how the "combo-from the side"-idea works out. I'm sceptic, but curious nonetheless.

Btw, has anyone tested the Lich matchup yet? It should be terrible for us (we're talking lich here, ppl. LICH, for crying out loud), but an estimate would be nice, just to see if it's worse than solidarity.

Grtz

[Schulz]

I feel that it wont really change anything siting in the painter-grindstone combo. They are already siding in a lot of artifact hate. They will think you just didn't draw the combo if anything. There are other things we need to be running in our boards.

[Jim Higginbottom]

You would most likely be better off having the painter grindstone combo in the main and siding it out.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with Schulz on the sideboard choices actually.

I guess the Token Wincon vs. Combo Wincon is a meta call thing. Although I will still try to thoroughly test the combo win-con. I guess I am just playing it wrong.

[(nameless one)]

I know this is doubleposting but I needed to bump it to get y'all Quinn pilot's attentions.

I started to maindeck the combo again... I am going to keep it this way and pilot it that way. Maybe I just need practice with it.

Here is my current list:



18 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Eternal Dragon

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Grindstone
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Painter's Servant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle

4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Abeyance

2 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God


I have been testing that list plus a Kor Haven. I am wondering if I should just go 61 on my main or remove 1. I have been contemplating on removing Relic of Progenitus from the main since my original list did not include it but recently, It has helped me a lot from keeping Goyfs in check to not to autolose to Dredge 1st game (Thank you for enlightening me with the Dredge thing).

Before I had Relic on main, I had O-ring on that spot. I actually want to keep my O-ring count on 3. Is that overkill since I am already running StPs and Halos? I did find O-rings helpful enough times.

With my current sideboard, Should I just keep running this deck with 61 main or should I remove 1 card to accomodate Kor Haven?

Here is my current sideboard:



2 Ghostly Prison
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Ray of Distortion
2 Rule of Law
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Meekstone
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Runed Halo



On my sideboard, should I change Halo with O-ring? Maybe additional Meekstones or Needles?

I am planning to bring this deck on a small tournament next week. Any suggestions? Thanks!

[NiRVeS]

Well, you're playing basically the same list as I am, so it shouldn't surprise you that I thoroughly approve :). So I guess someone else with a little less bias should comment. The only think I'd change is Rule of Law, since imho, Ethersworn Canonist is stricly better. It's faster (remember how I always recommend playing your lockpiece with W open to Chant?), equally tutorable and it actually puts your opponent on a clock.

Good luck with your tourney :).

Grtz Tom

[(nameless one)]

Usually, I would agree on you on Canonist, Tom. But currently, I am paranoid with Burn. Having something outside Story Circles and Pulse of the Fields. Cannonist simply cannot do there. Also, there is that issue of needing it to work with it under Humility because of Elves combo. Maybe I am wrong again on this one but for now, using Rule of Law wont hurt.

So should I just stick with 61 on my main? Could running only 21 snow permanents hurt my snow-draw engine (if I replace 1 of my SC Plains with a Kor Haven)?

[Schulz]

@(nameless one)

I run 18 Snow-Covered Plains and 3 Scrying Sheets and never have a problem with it working out and getting me lands. So i wouldn't worry about taking out one land and putting in another. you also have the Eternal Dragons in there to help you get lands. i wouldn't worry about running 21 Snow Lands.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Runed Halo could be cut to a one of. It's really only stellar in limited scenarios.

I don't know why you need Pithing Needle, honestly. You play the main card it's good against. Then again, I guess it stops Pridemage, EE and Deed.

[(nameless one)]

Outside AnT, I never find Pithing Needle a dead card. I actually like Runed Halos too. I'l keep testing my 61 main and see if it makes any differences.

[Schulz]

I don't know why you need Pithing Needle, honestly. You play the main card it's good against. Then again, I guess it stops Pridemage, EE and Deed.

I agree that it really should be there in the main deck, you could fit something else in there. If anything I see Pithing Needle more as a sideboard card for those reasons.

[(nameless one)]

I am keeping Pithing Needle as a tutor target. That card hasn't disappointed me so why take away something that actually helps. I am actually keeping the 21 snow-lands. I don't mind it at all. So far, It hasn't failed me with my playtesting. I still draw my cards with it.

Speaking of drawing cards, IBA debuted his Magic Murder Box.dec. Like any IBA control decks, it featured an obscure, yet ideally functional card draw engine:

Thawing Glaciers + Scroll Rack

I am still trying to figure out how to use it effectively but I reminded me of the original MWC deck: Parfait.

Is it possible that we can run that card draw engine in this deck and bring the reminiscence of Parfait?

Whats your opinion on this IBA?

[the Thin White Duke]

I think that involving another draw engine in Quinn is redundant, and probably unnecessary. Squeezing in more cards seems a little tough; I mean how many Scroll Racks and Thawing Glaciers would be required for a decent return?
Personally, my deck is morphing back to a Parfait style deck. Mainly because I'm not running Grindstone...
but the snow engine still seems to be most effective.

[(nameless one)]

I not saying involving another draw engine. I am suggesting to replace the Snow-draw with Scroll Rack+Thawing Glaciers. I actually like the idea of shuffling back dead card back to your library.

Also, why aren't you running Grindstones? I usually do that depending on the meta. But my main win-con on an unknown meta would be the Grindstone+Painter combo.

[Jon Stewart]

Quinn players and IBA, I'm really sorry if this sounds rude.

I like the deck but a few questions keep bugging me, how sure are you that sensei's top is the best card draw engine for the deck?

I ask because IBA built another control deck with scroll rack, are you sure scroll rack won't make a better engine than Top?

What made Scroll Rack better for that deck where Top is better for this deck?

Are you sure it's not worth it to splash blue to play Counterbalance alongside Top?

Are you sure the planeswalkers aren't worth playing?

Basically are you absolutely certain that the current deck engine is the most optimal one? Were the other alternatives tested?

P.S: What if land tax gets unbanned will that be a better engine?

Would you simply cut Top and Sacred Mesa (the only card that requires a lot of mana) and play 3 Land Tax and 3 Scroll Rack in the deck then or would the deck have to change wholly and completely to work in top and rack?

[(nameless one)]

SDT isn't just a draw engine. It also helps the deck make land drops every turn (along with Scrying Sheets) throughout the game. SDT is what makes the deck work as a Toolbox deck in junction with Tutor.

The thing about Scroll Rack is that if you donthave a draw/shuffle card, it can't really help much. That the reason why it worked with Land Tax and not with Fetchlands. Also, the way SDT work in this is that the lands that you are grabbing from Scrying Sheets can be dropped. If that was Scroll Rack, you'd need to save your lands for Rack+Sheets. Although I like IBA's idea to pair it with Thawing Glaciers.

Blue weakens the mana base. It requires running blue based Duals and Fetches. In doing so, you make the Sheets engine weaker. You can use Snow Islands but that goes back in weaker mana base.

Elspeth does see play in some builds I myself am 50/50 with her. While tutoring Sacred Mesa is the last thing that I want to do, mass producing tokens is awesome when you have ten lands in play. I will try to encorporate Her in my latest build along with Nevirryal's Disk. After all, I am running two Humilities.

The mentioned decklist isn't optimal. I believe the deck itself is a giant sideboard itself as the maindeck is on a constant change depending on a meta. Some list are better agaisnt aggro (like mine), whereas other lists are geared against combo or control. Some lists even have a land tutor package (via Expedition Map) against certain metas. I think that is the main reason why bring a deck like this in a 500 person event isn't a good idea. I could be wrong though.

The deck engine however, it's the greatly accepted one. SDT + Snowlands + Tutor is the way to go.

If Land Tax was legal, I would imagine the deck principle to be different. Maybe the same as this deck's grandfather: Parfait. I myself am trying to build a Land Tax + Scroll Rack parfait deck but everytime I try building it, I always end up shifting somewhere (I am now building Dredge LOL)

I would love to hear IBA's ideas as it is his deck. I could be wrong on some of the information I provided that he could correct.

[Jon Stewart]

Thank you for answering the questions.

I have one last hypothetical question. If land tax gets unbanned, then, in your opinion, would the resulting white control deck be strictly superior to/more powerful than Quinn. Or would Quinn probably remain the better deck, or would the format have two white control decks that are equal in viablity and powerlevel (seems extremely unlikely for legacy to support two mono white control decks)?

I know that there is no way to know for sure, but in your opinion, would land tax parfait displace this deck's role and function in the metagame?

Basically, I don't know if I want to invest in building this deck, if it's going to be rendered obselete/inferior whenever Land Tax gets unbanned.

[(nameless one)]

According to IBA (way back in the posts), this deck's engine is supposed to be better than Land Tax+Scroll Rack engine. I am not entirely sure about that but so far, I tried fitting this deck on a Parfait engine it it just doesnt work.

I think that Parfait engine is a whole different approach. It will not necessarily displace this deck's role. The way I see it, its (if Land Tax were unbanned), Quinn vs. Parfait would be like Aggro Bant vs. New Horizons. To someone unfamiliar with the two decks, it would look the same but its not really.

[Schulz]

Thank you for answering the questions.

I have one last hypothetical question. If land tax gets unbanned, then, in your opinion, would the resulting white control deck be strictly superior to/more powerful than Quinn. Or would Quinn probably remain the better deck, or would the format have two white control decks that are equal in viablity and powerlevel (seems extremely unlikely for legacy to support two mono white control decks)?

I know that there is no way to know for sure, but in your opinion, would land tax parfait displace this deck's role and function in the metagame?

Basically, I don't know if I want to invest in building this deck, if it's going to be rendered obselete/inferior whenever Land Tax gets unbanned.

Here is a hypothetical question. what if Land Tax never gets unbanned... Oh wait thats not hypothetical at all. Land tax will not be unbanned so you don't need to worry about it at all. If i repeat IF it ever gets unbanned then you can start talking about it but until that day comes it does not need to be brought up.

[Jon Stewart]

Yes I understand that. Call it curiosity more than anything.

I'm curious if people feel the top sheets engine is better than the tax rack engine (plus the need to run mox diamond/chrome mox and lower cc control cards) for a white control deck.

I'm curious if a particular high cc card or cards white control needs hold back the potential viability of a tax rack engine deck even if it were legal.

[Antonius]

tax would be way better because then you get to run things other than basic plains. As you said, running tax means running mox diamond, which also means running more lands, which also gives you the opportunity to a couple of lands that are essentially spells--ie, Maze, Tabernacle, Horizon Canopy (very powerful with rack and tax), wasteland and port--and possibly splash other colors for more utility. In fact, green would fit perfectly; horizon canopies a singleton savannah and windswepts would give you all the green you need to run 1-3 loams to wastelock certain decks out of the game and go apeshit with scroll rack. Grip out of board and Nantuko Monastery could also be run as a finisher. The deck would suddenly have mana denial as another reliable control option, in addition to all of the creature removal and scepter.

hmm now that I think about it, that wouldn't be too bad of a deck, even without land tax. hmmmm....

[(nameless one)]

tax would be way better because then you get to run things other than basic plains. As you said, running tax means running mox diamond, which also means running more lands, which also gives you the opportunity to a couple of lands that are essentially spells--ie, Maze, Tabernacle, Horizon Canopy (very powerful with rack and tax), wasteland and port--and possibly splash other colors for more utility. In fact, green would fit perfectly; horizon canopies a singleton savannah and windswepts would give you all the green you need to run 1-3 loams to wastelock certain decks out of the game and go apeshit with scroll rack. Grip out of board and Nantuko Monastery could also be run as a finisher. The deck would suddenly have mana denial as another reliable control option, in addition to all of the creature removal and scepter.

hmm now that I think about it, that wouldn't be too bad of a deck, even without land tax. hmmmm....

Please, post your Land Tax ideas here instead:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?16810-Parfait-(Tax-Rack-Mono-White-Control)

I know it outdated but the reason I stopped working on it is that:

1) No one else is interested with it. If you are showing interest (after all, there is another rumor that Land Tax will finally get unbanned), please help this thread instead.

2) No one wants to playtest with me on MWS. You can only go so far testing against Goblins and Merfolk.

3) My ADD always kicks in. I need help focusing on this deck. The last time I tried developing this deck, I ended up building now (I am only missing my sideboard now)

I know your idea is a little different from mine, but after all, it is the same cause.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Quinn runs a lot of permanents that want to be dropped (Humility, Scepter-Chant) and card disadvantage in the form of E Tutor. Top is also just kind of a better card in most ways than Scroll Rack. I was running Rack in MMB largely because the deck had no way to break Top aside from fetchlands, whereas Sheets is a very powerful way to make Top unfair. The idea with MMB was also that you could sit on Glaciers and Planewalkers while you built up a hand to make it more powerful.

But if I had to simply pick, I'm far more confident from far more testing in the power of Top in Quinn, than in the power of Scroll Rack in a deck I built as a challenge in a week that didn't end up being very good.

Although I don't recommend Quinn right now, unless you expect to be able to dodge Iona, or just maindeck Karakas's.

Also, Land Tax would be awful in Legacy. I'd rather splash green for Life from the Loam.

[(nameless one)]

Speaking of maindecking Karakas, have you ever considered running an Expedition Map toolbox? It can also grab Kor Haven if needed.

[NiRVeS]

I think one of the major upsides of the scrying sheets draw-engine that you guys forgot to mention is that it effectively doesn't use any cards slots. Top is a very good card on its own (best card in the deck, even) and scrying sheets is, at the end of the day, "just a land". In contrast, scroll rack isn't that impressive on its own, and neither is land tax - although I think everyone agrees that there probably is a decent shell with which the card can be abused. But that draw engine would require 6-8 cardslots to be effective, and two spells to be cast. Scroll Rack + Thawing Glaciers sufers from the same issue, because the Glaciers comes into play tapped and is a pretty dead card in the first 4-5 turns of the game (you really don't wanna lose that kind of tempo if you ask me) - so it does bring a pretty harsh opportunity cost with it.

When considering the draw engine for Quinn, if you include this opportunity-cost, I personally think Top/Sheets remains the best option up to date. The real question is whether the difference in opportunity cost is worth the restrictions that top/sheets puts on our manabase. Would the potential upside of being able to run splashes/more specialized lands offset the difference in compactness/effectiveness of different drawengines? I'm not so sure about that. Guess that would require innovation and testing, and although I'm not the most innovatie deckbuilder out there, I do think this deck is long overdue for some serious innovation.

Grtz, Tom

[Tokobotenkai]

Hi guys, new to the thread here but not new to the deck though.

Just curious, other than Karakas and/or Meekstone, what else do we have against an iona in play? Meekstone seem to stop her after 1 swing but it doesn't remove the lock on us.

Also what's Genju of the Fields of the fields for?

[NiRVeS]

Re: Iona.
I think Karakas is the only realistic option, although I currently have Noetic Scales in my sideboard. Haven't been able to put the thing to good use though, since I'm not playing Quinn atm and Reanimator/Survival aren't that common in my area. All in all, I think a resolved Iona is usually GG, and we're better off to simply accept that, rather than putting suboptimal cards in our boards to stop that specific thread. At least we can board gy-hate to prevent our opponents from putting the damn thing into play in the firt place :).

Re: Genju.
Since Genju still has the old "when ~ deals damage, gain life" wording, you can activate it multiple times to give it multiple instances of that ability. This way, each block can effectively gain you a bunch of life. It's a pretty good card against zoo to hold the fort and get you to the late game. Also, it's pretty good with Humility on the table.

Grtz

[Tokobotenkai]

Re: Iona.
I think Karakas is the only realistic option, although I currently have Noetic Scales in my sideboard. Haven't been able to put the thing to good use though, since I'm not playing Quinn atm and Reanimator/Survival aren't that common in my area. All in all, I think a resolved Iona is usually GG, and we're better off to simply accept that, rather than putting suboptimal cards in our boards to stop that specific thread. At least we can board gy-hate to prevent our opponents from putting the damn thing into play in the firt place :).

Re: Genju.
Since Genju still has the old "when ~ deals damage, gain life" wording, you can activate it multiple times to give it multiple instances of that ability. This way, each block can effectively gain you a bunch of life. It's a pretty good card against zoo to hold the fort and get you to the late game. Also, it's pretty good with Humility on the table.

Grtz

Hmm thanks for answering my question.

Regarding Genju, how do you activate it multiple times? Maybe I'm slow but I don't get it. =(

I looked out other stuff for Iona, namely Sandstone Deadfall, Predator, Flagship, Echo Chamber, Erratic Portal, Duplicant, Arena of the Ancients, Altar of Shadows, Amulet of Unmaking, do you think any of them is viable as I feel that they are all kinda mana intensive?

P.S. I can't find the card tags, so not sure how to link the cards here.

[hjalte]

Hmm thanks for answering my question.

Regarding Genju, how do you activate it multiple times? Maybe I'm slow but I don't get it. =(

----------------------
Genju of the Fields
Enchant Plains

{2}: Until end of turn, enchanted Plains becomes a 2/5 white Spirit creature with "Whenever this creaure deals damage, its controller gains that much life." It's still a land.

When enchanted Plains is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the Fields from your graveyard to your hand.
----------------------

So you pay {2} to make it a 2/5 spirit, with the gain life ability. Then you pay {2} again, and it gains a second gain life. Repeat as much as you like :)



P.S. I can't find the card tags, so not sure how to link the cards here.
use [cards.] [/cards.] tags around the cards (without the dot).

[NiRVeS]

Genju of the Fields
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Plains
2: Until end of turn, enchanted Plains becomes a 2/5 white Spirit creature with "Whenever this creature deals damage, its controller gains that much life." It's still a land.
When enchanted Plains is put into a graveyard, you may return Genju of the Fields from your graveyard to your hand.

So, you pay 2 and you get...

Plains
Land Creature - Spirit
Whenever this creaure deals damage, its controller gains that much life.
T: add W to your mana pool.

...with Genju still attached to it. You pay 2 to activate Genju again. Nothing says that the creature/land loses any abilities when you play the ability, so it will just gain an additional instance of the lifegain-ability. You get:

Plains
Land Creature - Spirit
Whenever this creature deals damage, its controller gains that much life.
Whenever this creature deals damage, its controller gains that much life.
T: add W to your mana pool.

When this critter blocks, both abilities will trigger, gaining you 4 life. So when you block (or attack, i guess) with the Genju-plain, you can gain 2 life for each 2 mana you spend.

As for the other cards you mentioned (btw, card tags can be made by wrapping the card name with the card name here[/cards ]-tags, without the space of course): most of them are either ineffective or way too slow to make a difference. [cards]Noetic Scales is a terrible card and most of the things you suggested are outmatched by it.
Sandstone Deadfall: If they have half a brain, they will never attack with Iona and beat you to death with some other monster while you remain locked out. Not viable.
Echo Chamber: Too situational: if they have one more creature, you're screwed. Might work against reanimator, but then again: too slow. Not viable.
Erratic Portal: Too situational. Not viable.
Arena of the Ancients: Doesn't help since it doesn't remove Iona. Definitely not an option.
Amulet of Unmaking: Too slow against reanimator. At least it works (if it resolves), so maybe not the worst option I guess. Still, I'd rather have Noetic Scales, which is 2 turns faster.
Altar of Shadows: Even slower than the amulet. Won't help.
Predator, Flagship: Probably the best of the "destroy"-artifacts, but it remains way too slow.
Duplicant: Rather slow, but probably the best of the bunch.

Given the speed at which these decks are able to stick an Iona, I think Noetic Scales is your best bet, terrible as it might seem. It's also got the benefit of putting the card in there hand, avoiding an easy re-"cast" by reanimator.

But like as said, this deck is pretty cold too Iona. That's just the sad truth we all have to live with.

Grtz

[Tokobotenkai]

Oooh cool, I was thinking on the Mishra's Factory lines.

But yea, I'm actually a reanimator player too :p But I run Quinn here and there too but looking to make the games not so one sided.

Thanks for the help!

[Jon Stewart]

The great thing about Noetic Scales is that it's useful against a lot of threats. Dreadnought, Progenitus, Emrakul, Tombstalker and Tarmogoyf.

The card that I'm currently impressed with is Silence

I feel like it's better than Abeyance, since it can prevent your opponent's from playing creatures as well. Against the bulk of the decks in the format, you cast Abeyance, and they simply cast a creature rather than a spell for that turn. You cast Silence, and they can't cast anything. And with stuff like Runed Halo, Wrath, and O. Ring to stop existing creatures, a Silence + Isochron lock is as effective as a Chant + Isochron lock.

[NiRVeS]

I tend to disagree. Abeyance is strong as a complement to Chant. It gets you around stuff that chant can't solve (namely QPM, EE, Deed, Gempalm Incinerator) to force through the combokill. As I've stated earlier, Chant and Abeyance's main functions (at least in my humble opion) are defensive: to force key pieces (humility, story circle, combopieces) into play or in case of Chant, stall a turn to get to Wrath. The offensive use (scepter) shouldn't be your main concern, except for a few key matchups: lands, stax, enchantress. I most other machups, I find myself valuing Scepter + StP equally good, if not better than Scepter + Chant. In that case, you can (most of the time) guarantee at least one useful activation out of it in case they have removal (i.e. pridemage etc), so you're trading 2-for--2 at least (or 1-for-1 if they get scepter in respons to the imprint trigger, which is still better than what would've happened if you tried chepter/chant). Because face it, Zoo and Bant will have pridemage pre-side and K.Grip after side, and against ANT the scepter is terrible anyway.

What I DID consider was the option of putting additonal Silences and Scepters in the board. They can be brought in for the matchups I previously mentioned, and the silences can be used for the combo-matchups as well.

But for the maindeck, I'd prefer Abayance over Silence. Pridemage is bad enough for us at is it, and the carddraw-bit is just gravy.

Grtz

[(nameless one)]

True story:

I have actually won on the back of Scepter+Abeyance. It was against Landstill (yes, the dreaded Landstill matchup). I forced in Scepter with Abeyance, which prevented his Planeswalkers from activating.

Although Abeyances has that good and bad side, depending on the matchup. I actually find Renewed Faith to be a better Abeyance replacement in an aggro meta. I have been switching those two on my main, depending on where I would be playing.

[raye]

I finally got the deck together and took it to an event. Of course, I did terrible. I had some close games but the threat density was so slow that one of my opponents mulled to 4 and kept 4 lands. Then he drew 2 more lands before getting to business spells. I lost that game.

I decided to try it out because I used to play another Mono W control deck. Deck Parfait. This deck plays nothing like that one. I guess I will keep at it but so far, it doesn't seem as strong as I would have hoped. The combo kill is vulnerable to all sorts of stuff. And Mesa is so slow and gets blown up. I'm sure I'm not playing optimally but I miss stuff like Argivian Find and Replenish against control. And I found that I just didn't see enough threats. Top gave me improved quality but not quantity.

[(nameless one)]

Would you like to share your list and matchups for that event?

[raye]

I ran a rather generic list.

18 Snow Plains
4 scrying sheets
1 maze of ith
3 E Tutor
4 StP
2 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
1 Runed Halo
1 Story Circle
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Aura of Silence
3 O Ring
2 Humility
1 Moat
4 Top
1 Relic of P
2 Wrath of God
2 Grindstone
2 Scepter
2 Painter

I got paired against a BU and maybe something else Aggro control deck. This is the game where he mulls to 4 (4 lands and draws 2 more lands). I still lose. I probably misplayed by chanting him too early. Couldn't force through my relevant spells when I eventually needed to get them through. He had a much better hand second game. I named Tombstalker because I saw it game one with Runed Halo. I get beat down with other stuff.

Round 2 White stax. I almost get him. Had mesa out and making tokens. More perms than him. Oring and Keg clears mesa and tokens and I lose. I get beat by factory and a Golem game 2. Geddon twice keeps me out of the game.

Bye R3.

R4 He tells me it is belcher but I never see it. He empties his hand both games for 12 and 14 goblin tokens first turn.

[kinda]

I ran a rather generic list.

18 Snow Plains
4 scrying sheets
1 maze of ith
3 E Tutor
4 StP
2 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
1 Runed Halo
1 Story Circle
1 Sacred Mesa
2 Aura of Silence
3 O Ring
2 Humility
1 Moat
4 Top
1 Relic of P
2 Wrath of God
2 Grindstone
2 Scepter
2 Painter

I got paired against a BU and maybe something else Aggro control deck. This is the game where he mulls to 4 (4 lands and draws 2 more lands). I still lose. I probably misplayed by chanting him too early. Couldn't force through my relevant spells when I eventually needed to get them through. He had a much better hand second game. I named Tombstalker because I saw it game one with Runed Halo. I get beat down with other stuff.

Round 2 White stax. I almost get him. Had mesa out and making tokens. More perms than him. Oring and Keg clears mesa and tokens and I lose. I get beat by factory and a Golem game 2. Geddon twice keeps me out of the game.

Bye R3.

R4 He tells me it is belcher but I never see it. He empties his hand both games for 12 and 14 goblin tokens first turn.

Why run maze over kor haven?
Why 2 md aura of silence?
22 lands seems to light for this deck...w/ story circle, sacred mesa, and 5 four drops.

[raye]

I don't own a kor haven. Didn't want to buy one to try a deck I wasn't even sure I would like. The Painter Combo was expensive enough and so were all the other random cards that didn't match Parfait. (But those might be useful in other decks).

Aura is slower than seal but has a nice sphere effect. I used to run it in Parfait. Thought I would try it here.

The number of lands didn't seem to be a problem. The threat density was the issue. But I don't have enough experience to say any of this with authority. Just my observations.

[(nameless one)]

With my playtesting, I find that Kor Haven doesnt really help the deck. Its either dead or becomes a Wasteland target when you need it.

Aura of Silence is good in Vintage (saying this because of Parfait) because of its sphere effect. That said, it's sphere effect is not big of a factor in Legacy because the threat enchantments/artifacts of Legacy can come earlier than Aura of Silence. In my opinion, Aura of Silence is good coming from the side (against Enchantress and Staxx)

I also run 22 lands (18 SC Plains and 4 Sheets) and it has never been a problem for me (although I also run Eternal Dragon). My decklist never has any problems when it comes with answering threats when played right. The problem I always face with this deck is that a minor misplay can cause you the game (although toolbox decks tend to have that problem).

What I am trying to learn right now is how to use Orim's Chant or Abeyance to hose AnT and Belcher. Apparently, if you play Orim's Chant or Abeyance properly (right timing on stack), it can screw those deck's math.

I am also trying to figure out how to answer an early turn 2/3 Iona. So far, I only rely with aggressively using Orim's Chant and Abeyance to delay the game enough to have Humility on the field. Runed Halo might be able to buy you time (naming Iona) to set up the Combo finish since apparently, Reanimator will have to dig for a second reanimator target.

I find that this deck requires a lot of practice and its very tidous to play.

[NiRVeS]

I'll agree that the deck can be difficult to play - being control a format as broad as legacy always is.

@ Raye: That being said, I have to say that your matchups were far from optimal. Stax is very difficult, you have to aim for a fast chantlock. BU-aggro-control should be doable, as long as they don't have counterbalance. Normally, you should have sufficient answers for most of their threats so they'll have a hard time killing you. Save your chants for your winconditions, which means building upwards to 7/8 mana before you go at it with chant backup for the combo. On the other hand, especially against an UB deck planning to win with creatures, Sacred Mesa from your side should be game over (unless they have dreadnought?).

@(nameless one): In my experience, if you want to get a feel at how to time your chants against combodecks, try playing the matchups from the combodeck's perspective for a change. I'm an ANT-player myself, which allows me to get a feel on how an opponents hand might be looking, depending on the type of plays they are making. To complicate things, it somewhat depends on which version thet are playing. Against some version of ANT, you can sandbag chant for after their Ad Nauseam, whereas against the Saito lists this can prove to be fatal due to Pact of Negation. Generally, I don't take chances and try to chant before they get to resolve Ad Nauseam though.
Small tip: if possible, float chants wth top so you don't lose to duress.
Keep in mind that you have a lot of dead draws against these combodecks, so don't be afraid to mull aggressively - especially against Belcher. Any hand without chants/abeyance/e-tutor (to get runed halo) is unplayable, and since you're likely to be holding StP/WoG...as well, most of your hand will effectively be sizeable mulligans anyway. might as well give it another shot for more business than.

Btw, testing showed that the Doomsday-Sheldock-Emrakul plan which some ANT-deck bring from the SB is pretty good against us - so plan accordingly.

Grtz, Tom

[(nameless one)]

Hey Tom,

Outside Karakas, do you have any other way of dealing a resolved Iona?

[NiRVeS]

Well, I pretty much gave my views on how to deal with Iona in this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6188-[Deck]-Quinn-The-Eskimo-Aka-The-Mighty-Quinn&p=459365&viewfull=1#post459365) on the previous page :). Karakas is ok, but it's really only effective against Iona, which makes it too narrow for my taste. I've added a singleton "fancy-land" in most of my Quinn builds (just because I like having the 23rd land in there), but hose were either tutorable with dragon (Mistveil Plains) or Snow (Mouth of Ronom). Having a very narrow silver bullet which isn't tutorable won't solve a threat as large as Iona, especially given the speed with which reanimator or dredge tend to put her into play. I terms of colorless answers, the only thing I consider to be remotely playable is Noetic Scales, since it is tutorable also can also deal with other treats from reanimator + it can even be brought in to fight Progenitus. However, getting that thing to resolve is difficult considering reanimators countersuite.

The most effective "solution" to Iona, if you ask me, is devoting 5-6 SB-slots to graveyad hate and prevent them from putting the damned thing into play in the first place.

But, if you want my honest opinion: if Iona is prevalent in your metagame, play another deck. As it happens to be, Zoo/Goblins are not that good against Reanimator/Dredge either, so the decks you like to prey upon with Quinn won't be present in your meta anyway.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news :).

Grtz

[(nameless one)]

Well, I pretty much gave my views on how to deal with Iona in this post (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?6188-[Deck]-Quinn-The-Eskimo-Aka-The-Mighty-Quinn&p=459365&viewfull=1#post459365) on the previous page :). Karakas is ok, but it's really only effective against Iona, which makes it too narrow for my taste. I've added a singleton "fancy-land" in most of my Quinn builds (just because I like having the 23rd land in there), but hose were either tutorable with dragon (Mistveil Plains) or Snow (Mouth of Ronom). Having a very narrow silver bullet which isn't tutorable won't solve a threat as large as Iona, especially given the speed with which reanimator or dredge tend to put her into play. I terms of colorless answers, the only thing I consider to be remotely playable is Noetic Scales, since it is tutorable also can also deal with other treats from reanimator + it can even be brought in to fight Progenitus. However, getting that thing to resolve is difficult considering reanimators countersuite.

The most effective "solution" to Iona, if you ask me, is devoting 5-6 SB-slots to graveyad hate and prevent them from putting the damned thing into play in the first place.

But, if you want my honest opinion: if Iona is prevalent in your metagame, play another deck. As it happens to be, Zoo/Goblins are not that good against Reanimator/Dredge either, so the decks you like to prey upon with Quinn won't be present in your meta anyway.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news :).

Grtz

I already came with that conclusion LOL. I am just having that sense of false hope.

[raye]

I think one problem I have is that I have not unlearned Parfait. Parfait got threats on the board in different ways. Arg. Find and Replenish wore out the U player's countermagic. Stuff like Zuran Orb and Balance and Planar Birth are threats above and beyond what Quinn has (and the lifegain mattered). It just plays totally different and I know I am not playing it well. But if the learning curve is anything like Parfait's, I'm not sure I have it in me to learn it right.

I played Parfait because I loved the concept and how it played. I didn't exactly love the overall power level but it was a very rewarding deck when things went right. Digging for answers with Rack seems totally different than digging with Top. Painter/Grindstone actually feels like a dirty wincon to me.

[(nameless one)]

I think one problem I have is that I have not unlearned Parfait. Parfait got threats on the board in different ways. Arg. Find and Replenish wore out the U player's countermagic. Stuff like Zuran Orb and Balance and Planar Birth are threats above and beyond what Quinn has (and the lifegain mattered). It just plays totally different and I know I am not playing it well. But if the learning curve is anything like Parfait's, I'm not sure I have it in me to learn it right.

I played Parfait because I loved the concept and how it played. I didn't exactly love the overall power level but it was a very rewarding deck when things went right. Digging for answers with Rack seems totally different than digging with Top. Painter/Grindstone actually feels like a dirty wincon to me.

Are you talking about Land Tax parfait?

Would you like to share your decklist?

[raye]

Are you talking about Land Tax parfait?

Would you like to share your decklist?

Yes, I am talking about Deck Parfait (with Land Tax and Scroll Rack). I haven't played it in more than a long time so I don't have a list. Last thing I ran had a Mountain for Blood Moon (Cherry Parfait).

[lordofthepit]

Given that the most popular forms of fast combo (specifically, ANT and Reanimator) have taken a bit of a hit with the banning of Mystical Tutor, can Quinn be strong in the right metagame?

It has all kinds of anti-aggro measures, can Chant through opposing countermagic, and has a resilient manabase.

[kinda]

I'm hoping... :D. Though I have more faith in dutch stax...but no intention of buying moats.

[lordofthepit]

I'm hoping... :D. Though I have more faith in dutch stax...but no intention of buying moats.

I'd rather go with 2x Humility anyway.

I think ANT can still beat Quinn even without Mystical Tutor, but it's not going to be as attractive a metagame option anymore. Ditto Reanimator, which would probably be able to force through an Iona before you can land Humility.

[kinda]

Yeah we're still really unfavored vs. ant (now TES?) and reanimator...but hopefully they'll be less played. Ant being played less will also bring down countertop numbers which is nice. I like our merfolk, goblins, bant (without countertop), and to an extent zoo matchups.

[lordofthepit]

Yeah we're still really unfavored vs. ant (now TES?) and reanimator...but hopefully they'll be less played. Ant being played less will also bring down countertop numbers which is nice. I like our merfolk, goblins, bant (without countertop), and to an extent zoo matchups.

I think ANT and Reanimator heavy metagames are a good reason to play Countertop, so I expect a secondary decrease in the prevalence of Countertop decks. Moreover, I would imagine that with 7 Chant effects, 4 Oblivion Rings, and a slew of must counters (Humility, Sacred Mesa, Isochron Scepter), plus Ray of Distortion out of the sideboard (and more removal than they have threats), the Countertop matchup isn't as bad as it might seem on paper either. (But I haven't playtested the Countertop/Quinn matchup much, so I can't be certain of this.)

Edit: Include possibly Eternal Dragon and Decree of Justice if you expect a lot of Countertop

[NiRVeS]

Tbh, I never found ANT to be that bad of a matchup - certainly not worse than 40-60 pre board and favorable post board. Thing is, I don't think Quinn's matchup against stormcombo will change that much when those decks evolve to reflect the banning of Mystical Tutor. New lists might have a harder time to answer Halo/Canonist, although Burning Wish can provide sufficient answers anyhow, but other than that, the main issue with MT-less stormcombo will be a small drop in consistency and maybe speed. Quinn doesn't really benefit from those new "problems", since it doens't put up a fast clock anyway (well, most of the time, at least).

Quinns worst matchups are, in my opinion, the counter-top decks. If the banning from MT has any implications for us, it will have to come from secundary effects, e.g.:
- Storm-combo proves to be less viable, which benefits decks which have a poor performance against storm. Zoo and Goblins and Rock, which are good matchups for us, rise in popularity.
- Because less stormcombo is present, countertop-pilots lose some of their most favorable matchups. This might lower the amount of countertops showing up. But since the deck, if piloted properly, is a strong choice for most metagames, I sincerly doubt this will happen. In the contrary: a resurgence of Zoo and Goblins may drive out the Merfolk players, a deck with a very favorable countertop-matchup! For all I know, banning MT might result in an INCREASE of the amount of countertop, which would suck pretty hard.
- Other possibility: new stromcombo remains viable, but suffers from an even worse countertop matchup due to not having easy acces to K.Grip pre-board. As a result, counter-top decks perform even better, driving up the amount of pilots. In which case, we're screwed, once again.

Now, all I'm trying to "prove" is that future effects from the banning of Mystical Tutor (I'm not even touching the unbanning of Grim Monolith, which may just as well spawn a new breed of MUD-decks for all I know) are difficult to predict. They are dependant on factors such as your local metagame and whatnot. I personally think this change will have little consequences for Quinn, since the decision to play this deck should not be that reliant on the presence of stormcombo.

Grtz

PS: The whole systems-theory approach to analyse metagames and the effects of bannings/restrictions is one of the pet topics of Stephen Menendian. I firmly recommend his articles if you're interested in this tyle of analysis. He'll proberable come up with a much more accurate appoach to this in a future article than I did just now, although I'm hesistant to think he will include the position of Quinn in his analysis :).

[(nameless one)]

Has anyone seen this:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=106943&d=1278083675


Brittle Effigy :1:

Artifact

:4:,tap : Exile Brittle Effigy: Exile target creature.


I think it would be a good singleton to this deck. It does deal with that dreaded early Iona.

I haven't seen the rest of the spoilers but that one caught my attention.

[kinda]

I think I'd rather run noetic scales.

I'll be piloting this deck tomorrow at a gpt...and was wondering if anyone had sb advice or deck advice with the format somewhat changed now (also I was wondering how people sb for zoo/new horizons). I think I will be moving abeyance to the board now...any opinions on that?

[(nameless one)]

I havent really tested thoroughly against New Horizons. But since its a graveyard-oriented deck, I would see grave hate shining on this.

Against Zoo, Pulse of the Fields off of the side is really good. Use your Orim's Chants aggresively on the early turns until you can get a defensive set up (such as Humility)

Tarmogoyf and Grim Lavamancer are good Runed Halo targets against Zoo. Don't be afraid against Krosan Grip but use your Tutors wisely. Do not try to pull off an early Painter-Stone combo unless you can protect it with a Chant or Abeyance.

Good luck at the GPT!

[kinda]

Thx I'll post how I do tmrw night.

[kinda]

Alright so my first tournament playing quinn went pretty badly...there were 11 players including myself...me, 3 zoo, 1 goblins, 1 merfolk, 1 lands, 1 ugr jace control, uw tempo, ant, 1 i don't know.

I couldn't get any kor havens...and I wanted a noetic scales in the board but otherwise the deck was what I wanted (short of moat I guess...).

Land: 22
18 snow covered islands
4 scrying sheets

creatures: 3
2 painter's servant
1 eternal dragon

artifacts/enchantments: 19
4 sensei's divining top
3 runed halo
3 oblivion ring
2 grindstone
2 isochron scepter
1 ensnaring bridge
1 humility
1 relic of progenitus
1 faith's fetters
1 sacred mesa

insants/sorceries: 16
4 orim's chant
4 swords to plowshares
3 enlightened tutor
3 wrath of God
1 path to exile
1 pulse of the field

sb:
3 ray of distortion
2 abeyance
2 tormod's crypt
1 relic of progenitus
1 rule of law
1 etherword canonist
1 karmic justice
1 pulse of the field
1 pithing needle
1 ghostly prison
1 meekstone

Round 1: ugr jace next level thresh thing; ran jace, force, daze, spellstutter sprite, tarmo, grim lavamancer, mutavault, bolt, explosives

G1: He plays an early jace and protects it with countermagic...i die to the ultimate.
G2: I have to mull to 5 to get a white source...does not get there.

0-1

So jace supported by countermagic and engineered explosive to hit o-rings is something like a 3% win chance for quinn...right?

Round 2: ANT w/ lim dul's vault

G1: I get thoughtseized turns 1/2 on the draw and eventually die. This game takes a horribly long time though...I didn't even realize I was playing ANT for a while...in retrospect I made several misplays.
G2: I get turn 2 canonist, turn 3 rule of law, t4 runed halo...
G3: I get e-tutor for canonist again and a t4 abeyance on a stick...sadly time is called on my turn and i ended up needing one more turn to win the game

0-1-1

G3: uw tempo

G1: I don't see a wrath/o-ring/bridge and die to sword of light and shadow...probably should have known they play that but did not.
G2: I side in a ray of distortion and a pithing needle...I stabilize and combo off.
G3: I keep a 3 land hand...and draw 7 lands out of the next 8 cards (using sheets blindly twice). That's not gonna beat most precons. This would be my fault for apparently pile shuffling poorly. I will be shuffling more aggressively for top/e-tutor in the future.

0-2-1

I get the bye round 4...

1-2-1

So overall there's was some bad luck, especially in having to play jace first...as I believe it was the only bad matchup there. I was wondering how the lands matchup would be as I've never tested it...I'm guessing it would be favorable at least postboard as they can't do much about the combo and we run a ton of basics. I guess wrath/humility out and gy hate in...maybe put a tsabo's web in the board?

My biggest concern w/ the deck is jace...I remember playing against my friend's next level thresh deck a little bit after gp madrid and realizing that if decks start packing jace I'm in a lot of trouble. Anyone have thoughts on this or are we just forced to punt the jace control matchups? Now off to the all you can eat icecream festival...

[(nameless one)]

Actually, I have that same experience.

Any deck that packs an Elspeth or Jace 2.0, its a hard matchup for me.

I even tried using Elspeth on my main over Sacred Mesa (I still prefer Mesa if you want a win now late game). I actually use Elspeth as a removal.

So imagine the matchup with Landstill.

The way I see it, this deck plays like a psuedo-Landstill. A lot of Draw-Go going on. I really hope WotC prints more cards that deal with planeswalker outside of O-ring and Pithing Needle.

[kinda]

Yeah, I think the o-ring/fetters count has to be upped...fetters has the advantage of usually being outside of engineered explosives/counterbalance range and keeping the the first planeswalker around so the next one dies (the life can be relevant too). I'm not sure if the oblivion ring count should be upped as getting them pulsed/exploded is pretty bad but it's a mana cheaper. (i also run bridge at 3cc which has proven to be an amazing card...so really trying not to up the 3cc permanents).

Also, what about that crystal ball card (yeah I know it's 3cc...)? It serves much of the same function as top and even complements it. Top is such a critical part of this deck that I think it's worth a look at...even just running 2 since it doesn't shuffle itself away.

[(nameless one)]

Speaking of new M11 cards, apparently the new white Leyline is something along the lines of Ivory Mask.

I actually think its a good sideboard against Burn and heavy discard decks. It is also good against Jace 2.0 (in a sense that you cannot die from his ultimate)

I have been contemplating concerning Crystal Ball. I had this idea of utilizing Trinisphere in the deck along with it. But then, we are just turning the deck into a crappy version of Stompy.

It might work though. Use Scroll Rack and Thawing Glaciers draw engine and really slow the game via 3spheres. Its essentially a crappy Parfait.

I still like the new white Leyline.

[kinda]

I was doing some thinking...and I know jace isn't all that prevalent...but it's enough of a problem that I'm considering running several luminarch ascension's in the board. Explosives I know is still an answer but with needle @ 1, luminarch @ 2, o-ring @ 3, and fetters @4 it should be manageable. Luminarch also has the benefit of clearing an explosives at 2 that's waiting for a painter...thoughts?

[(nameless one)]

I was doing some thinking...and I know jace isn't all that prevalent...but it's enough of a problem that I'm considering running several luminarch ascension's in the board. Explosives I know is still an answer but with needle @ 1, luminarch @ 2, o-ring @ 3, and fetters @4 it should be manageable. Luminarch also has the benefit of clearing an explosives at 2 that's waiting for a painter...thoughts?

Can you elaborate on the exact purpose of Luminarch Ascension?

[kinda]

It plays a similar role to jace in that it is a card that must be answered or it will end the game. It's a proactive answer to Jace which is another plus for it...unfortunately its really only good against landstill and slower countertop decks.

[Schulz]

This is the list i plan on bringing to the up coming GP and to Gen Con. Just want to get everyones thoughts on it before i went.

Main
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Isochrone Scepter

1x Decree of Justice
4x Orim's Chant
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Abeyance
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God

2x Eternal Dragon

2x Runed Halo
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
1x Humility

Side
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Runed Halo
1x Humility
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Story Circle
2x Leyline of Sactity
3x Ray of Distortion
3x Sun Titan

[(nameless one)]

This is the list i plan on bringing to the up coming GP and to Gen Con. Just want to get everyones thoughts on it before i went.

LIST



Looks good although I would actually maindeck Pithing Needle so you dont get boned by Qasali Pridemages and random plaineswalkers.

I would also have some means to gain life, such as Pulse of the Fields.

Hows Leyline of Sanctity for you? Is it enough to only have two? Also, one thing that caught my attention on your sideboard is Sun Titan. How was he?

I would also try to fit in Aura of Silence on the side as things such as Staxx, Enchantress, Countertop Foundry might see tons of play (mainly due to the 'shafting' of combo).

Good luck with your trip there!

[kinda]

This is the list i plan on bringing to the up coming GP and to Gen Con. Just want to get everyones thoughts on it before i went.

Main
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Isochrone Scepter

1x Decree of Justice
4x Orim's Chant
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Abeyance
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God

2x Eternal Dragon

2x Runed Halo
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
1x Humility

Side
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Runed Halo
1x Humility
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Story Circle
2x Leyline of Sactity
3x Ray of Distortion
3x Sun Titan

Seems good...

1) I would put in 1 kor haven.
2) Jace control is a big problem...there probably isn't any good way to deal with this but 1x faith fetters seems good (usually outside of explosives range, shuts down that jace and the next one).
3) I don't think cop is better than warmth or pulse of the field.
4) Sun titan seems awkward with humility...I would add in more jace control answers.
5) no ethersworn canonist in the board? I thought that was an auto include.
6) I would test crystal ball...only as a 1 or 2 of though.

Anyway, good luck!

[(nameless one)]

I also forgot to mention Elspeth, Knight-Errant. At worst, shes an Elspeth removal. At best, she can win you games. I would definitely run her over Sacred Mesa. How many times have you tutored for Mesa with Painter-Stone Combo or Moat on your side?

You might not be able to tutor for Elspeth but when she shows up, she parties. After all, you should get enough card advantage from the snow-engine.

[Schulz]

I also forgot to mention Elspeth, Knight-Errant. At worst, shes an Elspeth removal. At best, she can win you games. I would definitely run her over Sacred Mesa. How many times have you tutored for Mesa with Painter-Stone Combo or Moat on your side?

You might not be able to tutor for Elspeth but when she shows up, she parties. After all, you should get enough card advantage from the snow-engine.

Sacred mesa can pump out creatures faster then elspeth and mesa also gives you the benefit of flying creatures.


Seems good...

1) I would put in 1 kor haven.
2) Jace control is a big problem...there probably isn't any good way to deal with this but 1x faith fetters seems good (usually outside of explosives range, shuts down that jace and the next one).
3) I don't think cop is better than warmth or pulse of the field.
4) Sun titan seems awkward with humility...I would add in more jace control answers.
5) no ethersworn canonist in the board? I thought that was an auto include.
6) I would test crystal ball...only as a 1 or 2 of though.

Anyway, good luck!

1) I like Kor Haven but i don't really think i need to run it
2) What would you think to take out to fit Faith's Fetters into the deck?
3) CoP: Red is better then Warmth due to the fact it can stop creater damage and spells that do more then 2 damage
4) I wouldn't run them both together. Sun Titan would come in more against a CounterTop matchup
5) The Leylines protect you against combo and it can also stop them from a turn one win
6) I don't really like Crystal Ball. It seems good in theary but i feel it is too slow getting it out there. you have different things you need to be playing

[kinda]

1) ok
2) I would take out a dragon, an abeyance, or the decree for it.
3) ok
4) The only matchups where you don't want humility are storm combo and lands.
5) You're only running 2 though...it's obviously your call but ethersworn canonist+chant/abeyance back up for when they bounce it is I believe the goal in that matchup.
6) I haven't actually tested it...I should probably get the mws patch.

Another concern I realized is that you don't have an e-tutor answer for iona. I run an ensnaring bridge in my list and have been very impressed with it. Noetic scales is another option but I haven't tested it.

[torgar]

Cut an O-ring for the Fetters, Schulz.

Also, I'm really skeptical about Kor Haven. It's a nice idea but the strength of the deck is it's color consistency and it's near invulnerability to wasteland.

The new Leyline also has a lot of potential, I think.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Sacred Mesa has won me so many games where Elspeth would've been useless.

I wouldn't run a 2x E. Dragon. It doesn't do enough in this situation, since you're so rarely going to want it as a kill condition. I'd rather run 1-2x PtE and a couple Pulse of the Fields

[torgar]

Sacred Mesa has won me so many games where Elspeth would've been useless.

I wouldn't run a 2x E. Dragon. It doesn't do enough in this situation, since you're so rarely going to want it as a kill condition. I'd rather run 1-2x PtE and a couple Pulse of the Fields

I agree that Elspeth is worse than Mesa. Although I think Dragon has won me as many games if not more than Mesa.

Mesa is so mana-intensive and has virtually no use early-mid in the game (say 5-6 lands) when cycling DoJ can buy you a turn or two and a card. Also when Mesa is disenchanted it's gone, so it should only be played late game (i'd say min 7+ lands, preferrably 8 or9) when you have the land to abuse it. DoJ can work here just as well

Dragon gets me a Plains early, can thin my deck and provide shuffle effects late game, and many decks have difficulty with a recurring 5/5 flier.

I'm curious as to why Dragon gets the boot and Mesa is so good in your opinion.

Often, Mesa just draws out some art/ench hate that would have hit the combo and I'm left with a Pegasi or two for chumps. I agree with extra PtE but I play them in the side. And I've been running x2 Pulse side but I may replace them with the Leylines, as they're good vs Burn, Combo, SGC and random stuff like discard, Intuition, Jace's ability.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

In pretty much every tournament I played there was at least one game, often more, where I won solely because of Sacred Mesa. As in I dropped it and literally didn't do anything else but pump out tokens the rest of the game, and won handily. There's just a lot of decks that cannot handle that jazz. Dragon's always been a decent card, I'm not slamming it, but it's never been as game winning as Mesa. Six land and you're golden usually.

[RichardK]

Sacred Mesa has won me so many games where Elspeth would've been useless.

I wouldn't run a 2x E. Dragon. It doesn't do enough in this situation, since you're so rarely going to want it as a kill condition. I'd rather run 1-2x PtE and a couple Pulse of the Fields

Actually the opposite has been true for me so far. I've built this deck just few days ago and have done some testing. So far Elspeth seems to just win games on her own (or at least she buys me some time to setup the grindstone/painter's servant combo or lock the game with isochron scepter/orim's chant if I I'm under heavy pressure from some aggro deck). Sacred Mesa has been less usefull.

However, I have to do more testing before I can make a definite conclusion.

I am playing these as my win conditions:

2 Elspeth
2 Eternal Dragon
2 Grindstone / 2 Painter's Servant

I am also playing 2 Pithing Needle main deck because I have often found myself wishing I had it in my hand (or could tutor for it) during the first game. It shuts down just so many dangerous cards (Quasali Pridemage, KotR, Ravager, Pernicious Deed, SDT, EE, Powder keg, Jace or other random plainswalkers, Jite and swords, Mangara, Grim Lavamancer).

I will post my decklist later today.

[RichardK]

Here is my list which is doing pretty well against all decks with few exceptions. And even with the deck's worst matchups it is still winnable as I have found out. A well time Orim's Chant can kill many combo decks as Well as Rule of Law and Ethersworn Canonist. Against Iona turn 1 I have 4 Faerie Macabre in SB:


1 Story Circle
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Moat
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Orim's Chant
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
4 Scrying Sheets
1 Pithing Needle
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Grindstone
1 Humility
2 Eternal Dragon
18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Wrath of God
2 Painter's Servant
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Abeyance

Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
1 Aura of Silence
1 Pithing Needle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Rule of Law
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

[Schulz]

Main
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Isochrone Scepter
1x Pithing Needle

1x Decree of Justice
4x Orim's Chant
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Abeyance
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God

2x Eternal Dragon

2x Runed Halo
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
1x Humility

Side
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Runed Halo
1x Humility
2x Abeayance
1x Thersworn Canonist
1x Story Circle
2x Leyline of Sactity
3x Ray of Distortion
2x Pithing Needle

[(nameless one)]

Soo....

Is Scars of Mirrodin have anything for Quinn?

Ratchet Bomb looks like a sideboard material. Other than that, I don't really see anything.

I think Quinn is a good deck right now. Its two worst matchups got shafted (Reanimator and AnT).

Although, CounterTop could also be an ordeal to face. Has anyone tried Open the Vaults against that matchup? Open the Vaults would bring in countered control or combo pieces.

Speaking of the combo pieces, wouldn't Grindstone/Painter's Servant be bad against the current meta. I am seeing a lot of Emrakul everywhere. Granted, we have tons of answers to SnT>Emrakul (such as dropping Humility, Moat or even Oblivion Ring) but trying to kill the opponent with the combo without gravehate is a tall ordeal. Would the old fashion win-con work here?

[NiRVeS]

So far, the only cards which might be playable in Quinn are the new Elspeth en maybe Chimeric Mass (as a Humility and WoG-proof wincondition) as far as I'm concerned. Although I doubt any of these will make it in my deck.

I'll agree that the presence of Emrakul has made life tough. It's the main reason why I haven't played Quinn in the last few months, although I think the metagame as a whole seems pretty favorable around here. Atm, I'm testing a list with maindeck Pulse of the Fields, Elspeths (1.0) and no Abeyances maindeck. However, I'm planning on rebuilding the deck from scratch once I find the time and inspiration for it. One thing I would like to try, is a planeswalker heavy list with Elspeths and Gideons + Wall of Omens to help protect them. Not sure if the idea would be any good, but at the very least is would provide an alternate wincon for when Emrakul prevents PainterStone from working.

Grtz

[(nameless one)]

Im actually thinking of using my 'budget win-con' as my primary win condition. Before I got my Grindstones, I was running these on those 4 slots: 2x Decree of Justice, 1x Martial Coup, 1x Genju of the Fields.

Other than that, I barely have any problems with Emrakul as usually, they only get SnTed into play and I cheat in my own Humility or O-ring with it.

[yutang]

Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
4 Tundra
4 Plains
3 Islands
4 Flooded Strands
2 Arid Mesa
2 Misty Rainforest

Enchantments
1 Story Circle
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo Artifacts
3 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
3 Isochron Scepter

Spells
2 Wrath of God
3 Counterspell
3 Abeyance
4 Orim's Chant
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares

Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

SB:
3 Argivian Find
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Ghostly Prison

Would this deck work as an alternative to the traditional Quinn deck by splashing blue for Thopter/Foundry combo as a wincon instead of Painter/Grindstone (which is arguably more susceptible to removal) or Eternal Dragon? Splashing blue will also allow Brainstorm and Counterspell to be played for card advantage and counters respectively.

What are your thoughts on a Thopter/Quinn hybrid?

[Jim Higginbottom]

No. That looks unbelievably bad. Why wouldn't you just play thopters?

[farraway]

Long time reader, first time poster... I've been playing this deck to spice up my local meta and I've been running 2x Ghostly Prison main deck and it has been house. It slows everything down to a managable pace and if they're not using their mana to attack, they're dropping creatures that can't attack because they don't have any mana available. All this leads to over extension and wrathing the board away. Just a thought, but its worked very well for me.

[(nameless one)]

I agree with this but keep in mind that it is only good against swarm strategies. I run mine off of the sideboard. But if decide to keep it on main, I would suggest pairing it up with Humility.

If you have the budget, Moat > Ghostly Prison.

[(nameless one)]

Hey guys, sorry about doublepost but this list made top8 (3rd) from a 45-man tournament in Portugal:



Luis Ribeiro - 3º Classificado (Mighty Queen)

Maindeck

19 Snow-covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
2 Painter’s Servant
2 Grindstone
4 Sensei Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle
1 Humility
1 Moat
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim Chant
2 Silence
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God

Sideboard

1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Powder Keg
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Aura of Silence
1 Silence
2 Pulse of Fields
1 Wrath of God


Discuss

[kinda]

The deck's not a bad choice right now...it has an awesome vengevival matchup and a good merfolk matchup. It also has shown to be decent to good against goblins, new horizons, tes, and zoo.

@ the list: It's very close to mine atm...the biggest thing is the elspeth, really think it needs the extra wincons. I would take out story circle for a relic...and definately put ethersworn canonist in the board.

[(nameless one)]

I actually like Story Circle, but then again, I do not own Moats. I run two Humility on my list as well.

I wonder if 2 Wrath of Gods are good enough. (I actually run a Wrath and 2 Day of Judgements, to get around Meddling Mage shenanigans).

Also, I think Pithing Needle on the main should be a must. My current list runs one with another on the sideboard. With the rise of Survival and planeswalkers, not to mention all the things that exist in the format from Vials to EEs, I believe that Needle is a good mainboard.

Also, I wonder if Silence is actually better than Abeyance? Yes, I like the cantrip off of Abeyance and it stops abilities, but during the replays I watched, Silence seemed really good at it would only cost a mana to play.


I think the reason why he didnt have Canonist are because his main hate against Storm-based combo was Leyline of Sanctity. But then again, Canonists are actually good in slowing down Vengevine Survival.

Hopefully, Luis will share his insights about the tournament.

@ Kinda: how do you fight other control decks. I find this deck really good against aggro and combo but when it comes to control decks, it feels like I keep getting outplayed. How do you play against CounterTop, Rock, Enchantress and Landstill decks?

EDIT: I just realized that Luis's list didn't have any Eternal Dragon. I am guessing that Eternal Dragon isnt as good as it used to be on this list?

[Morningstar]

Hi everyone.

Luis's list is actually my list, although he is the one who plays it more often, and has helped tune it.
Anyway, I'll give you a bit of insight about the deck choices.

First of all, keep in mind that we have a fairly stable meta, which we know well, and thus have tuned the deck specifically for it.

- Story Circle is maindeck because it is the only chance the deck has of beating Burn in game 1, and Burn is a fairly common deck here. It is also pretty decent against Merfolk and Goblins which are also common decks (there were 11 Merfolk in this tournament).

- Pithing Needle was not maindeck because Survival was not that common locally prior to this tournament, but I'll probably include it now.

- Silence is greatly superior to Abeyance IMO, as a) it costs 1 less, which is extremely important for using it as a preemptive counterspell to get your key spells through, b) it is a much more effective lock with Scepter, that is as good as Chant if the battlefield is clean or you have Wrath/Moat and c) it can actually buy you a turn against non-combo decks (Silence/Chant on turn 1, when on the play against aggro is one of the strongest early plays the deck can make).

- There are no Canonists because I wanted to test the Leylines. The meta is usually combo-light, and the Leylines are game against Burn, and are also decent against Jace and discard spells. There was simply no sideboard space for Canonists.

- There is no Eternal Dragon because he is irrelevant as a card advantage engine in the early game, and by the time you can recurr him you either already lost the game or should have it well in hand regardless of him. The only scenario where he is relevant is in the control mirror, but there the snow draw engine should give you enough advantage anyway. Also, he is useless as a win condition under Humility, so all things considered, we found it better to have the 19th Plains instead of the Dragon.


Luis will have to tell you about his tournament experience, as I wasn't able to watch any of his games.


However, I can give you feedback about the smaller tournament which I played with it this last weekend, to an unfortunate 3-2 result.

- Round 1 - lost 2-1 to MUC (the same deck and player to which Luis lost in the previous tournament)
The first two games were long battles: I was a bit unlucky in the late game of the first and ended up losing to Jace despite having a Sacred Mesa online, as he had recurring Explosives; in the second I had Leyline plus Runed Halo to prevent Jace shenanigans and require two bounce spells from my oponent, and he conceded after a while. Game 3, I was unable to resolve Top on two attempts, and that made the matchup much harder. I conceded after he cast Jace then Fact or Fiction.

- Round 2 - won 2-1 against Erayo-Affinity
The first game was probably the strongest game I've seen this deck pull yet. My opening hand was 2 Plains, 1 Grindstone, 1 Painter, 1 Silence, 1 Chant, 1 Swords. I'm playing first, so it's Plains, his upkeep Silence, he plays land and passes, I draw the third Plains, play Plains and Grindstone, his upkeep Chant, he passes, I draw another Chant, play Plains and Painter, his upkeep Chant, he passes, I untap and win without letting him cast a single spell.
The second game he dumped his entire hand into play on turn 1, including a Cranial Plating, I have 1 Swords but no Chants and thus die before reaching Wrath mana.
He had a slower start on game 3, but had Needle for my turn 2 Scepter-Chant, however, I tutored up Aura of Silence and cast it on turn 4, leaving him effectively unable to cast his spells due to the added cost, then at the end of his turn I break Needle with Aura and start a Scepter-Chant lock to which he has no outs.

- Round 3 - an unusual 2-0 loss against Merfolk
I should say I lost to Mutavault, as 2 Mutavault beat me through Humility on game 1 and through Story Circle on game 2 while I was unable to find a single Swords. Also, he had multiple Standstills and Forces in both games, which made them all but impossible.

- Round 4 - won 2-0 against Survival Madness UG
He didn't see a Survival in both games, and I promply dealt with all Fauna Shamans that hit the board. I managed to delay him enough in both games to reach 7 mana and comboed off under the protection of Silence/Chant.

- Round 5 - won 2-0 against Lands
I comboed off relatively early in the first game, without giving him much chance to do anything. Game 2 I played Wheel of Sun and Moon on turn 2, which effectly shut out most of his game. He plays double Confidant to try and beat me, but I play Moat shortly after. He eventually plays a third Confidant, trying to get to Krosan Grip. We both make some errors in between, but eventually the game ends with him revealing 7 CMC total for his Confidants while at 7 life, including a Krosan Grip that would have destroyed my Runed Halo and allowed him to attack for lethal damage (he had gotten rid of Moat with Engineered Explosives at this point).

[(nameless one)]

Hey Morningstar,

I was wondering if you're going to use Pithing Needle on main, which card is likely to get booted out of the current list?

Also, would you change the current list to better suite the meta?

Would Open the Vaults be a good sideboard card against Blue-based control (like how Replenish is used in Enchantress)?

EDIT: Pithing Needle would have been pro against that Mutavault.

[Antonius]

has anyone considered Cursed Totem? It seems really good in the Meta, seeing as how it shuts off all of Survival's utility/backup creatures, permanently stunts Coralhelm Commander's growth, and protects scepters/moats from Qasali Pridemage.

[(nameless one)]

I used to run Cursed Totem but with my Goblin Deck. Honestly, I would rather use Humility as not only it prevents the activated abilities of creatures, it also prevents their triggered effects. Not to mentioned it leaves their creatures 1/1

[Morningstar]

I was wondering if you're going to use Pithing Needle on main, which card is likely to get booted out of the current list?

I'm still thinking about it, but it would probably have to be either an O-Ring or a Halo.



Also, would you change the current list to better suite the meta?

Other than maindeck Needle, I think the list is fine. The only losses of the deck recently have been against MUC, which is a 50-50 matchup and anyway is very rare in our meta, and that very unfortunate game against Merfolk.



Would Open the Vaults be a good sideboard card against Blue-based control (like how Replenish is used in Enchantress)?

I can see this being relevant against MUC and Landstill maybe, if the games turn into a long war of attrition. But frankly, if you can resolve this, you could also combo off and win, so all in all, I don't think it deserves a sideboard slot unless your meta is very very controlish.
The key to winning the control matchup is resolving Top. If you do that, then the snow draw engine should give you insurmountable card advantage and card quality. Also, you have a lot of cards that you can use as counterspell-bait and after you get to 7 mana, every Silence/Chant you cast is a must-counter so you can just keep firing bullets until the important one goes through and then combo off FTW or win with Elspeth/Mesa. The catch is, of course, most often than not you have to be able to deal with Jace, but Halo, Needle and O-Ring do a good job there.
The one thing I would add to the SB if there was more control in the meta would be additional copies of Painter and Grindstone, as the ability to combo finish is what gives this deck the edge against other control decks.


Also, regarding your question above:
- CounterTop can be a bit tricky to beat if they get Counterbalance and Top online, but you can usually get rid of Counterbalance with Oblivion Ring/Aura of Silence after a few decoys spells of 3-4 CMC force him to spend the counterspells in hand, and without Counterbalance the matchup is much easier than the other control matchups.
- Enchantress scoops to Scepter-Chant, at least in game 1, and likely also in games 2-3 as many lists opt for Aura of Silence or Seal of Cleansing rather than Grip SB. So, all you have to do is hold out until turn 4 and tutor for Scepter and then win. Even if they do board in Grip, you can just Silence/Chant them on a few critical turns to buy you time to combo off FTW. Also, Humility neuters half of their draw engine.
- I haven't played against Rock yet, but it should be relatively easy if they don't Thoughtseize your Top from your opening hand (and they shouldn't if you have a more flashy card like Moat/Humility/Scepter/Wrath), as Top goes a long way against discard. Other than that, Scepter-Chant is also game against them, and as they have no counters, you should be able to Wrath and Sword your way to 7 mana and combo off with Chant protection.
- Landstill is a bit less difficult than MUC, as they have less counters and you don't have so many dead cards (Swords are usefull against Mishra's Factory for instance). Again the key is resolving Top, and then keep firing bullets to spend his counterspells until you can combo off.

[(nameless one)]

Would you maindeck one or two Pithing Needle?

My old list used to run only one but I think PNeedle is good enough in the format to have a two-of. It stops a lot of maindeck cards any opponent has, from Aggro to Control. The only thing I dont see it shine would be against any non-Belcher based Storm.

I will try to tinker with the list as well. Unfortunately, I have been preoccupied with work and other activities, so my playtesting is limited. Hopefully, I will have time to play around with the deck again soon.

I am looking forward for more reports and insights with the deck, given that Luis or you will play this same deck with the following legs of that League Tournament. Hopefully, we hear more about Luis's performance last tournament.

Thanks for the insights Morningstar.

[Morningstar]

Would you maindeck one or two Pithing Needle?

My old list used to run only one but I think PNeedle is good enough in the format to have a two-of. It stops a lot of maindeck cards any opponent has, from Aggro to Control. The only thing I dont see it shine would be against any non-Belcher based Storm.

Just one. While it has several uses, it is generally too passive against aggro. With 4 tutors, chances are you'll be able to fetch Needle when you need it, but playing only 1 you minimize the chance of topdecking it when you don't.
However, I'll probably keep a second Needle in the board for the matchups where you really want it.



I am looking forward for more reports and insights with the deck, given that Luis or you will play this same deck with the following legs of that League Tournament. Hopefully, we hear more about Luis's performance last tournament.

Thanks for the insights Morningstar.


He'll probably be the one playing it, but I may give it a spin in a tournament or two, particularly if my other deck choices do not prove satisfactory in our Merfolk-infested meta.
Anyway, I'll try and gather his feedback next tournament (next Sunday).

You're welcome!

[(nameless one)]

Alright, this weekend I have been testing this deck. So far, I have a near identical list off of Morningstar (Luis Ribiero's deck)


[cards]
19 Snow-covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Painter’s Servant

4 Sensei Divining Top
2 Grindstone
2 Isochron Scepter

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Silence

1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God


One of the most obvious exlusion is Moat. I personally own Moat but with a meta filled with Qasali Pridemage (from Zoo to G/W Survival), I think this exclusion is good enough and Humility is a better alternative. Yes, Moat is pro in stopping Tribal deck and Vengevines but I feel that Humility is better since it stops the utilization of ability creatures.

To compensate with the lack of Moat. I am running a couple of Elspeth KE. She is awesome with Humility online. She alone could be Moat 2.0 as not only she grants you that extra '4 life', she can also create a chump blocker each turn. As a back up defense, I am also using Story Circle as another defense. Not only it stops creatures, it also stops targeted damage towards me. Its synergy with Painter Servant is awesome too.

Pithing Needle has been an awesome Tutor target. It can stop anything from Survival of the Fittest to Vials to unplayed Fetchlands.

One of my main concerns is Silence. I find that Silence is a strong turn one play. The problem with that is I already have real good strong turn one play. I find that the most essential strong one plays for this deck are either SDT or Tutor>SDT. I rarely go Chant on turn one.

I find that Abeyance is also good, especially against the control matchup, which I find a horrible matchup with this deck. I probably still need practice but my worst matchups are CounterTop, Landstill, Enchantress and 43Lands.

At one point, I was playing a game against some Faeries build with Jace 2.0. My opponent casted Jace and fatesealed me (as we both have no hands). Good thing I have SDT. On my turn, before I my draw phase, I toped again and Isochron Scepter and Silence was revealed to me. I could have use that Abeyance.

Now, I just have to hone my control matchup.

I am also working on a sideboard right now. Ethersworn Canonist or Rule of Law sounds like a good sideboard card as not only it shafts Storm-based combo, it also slows down all these new Vengevine builds.

Hopefully, we hear more from Morningstar about the League tournament this past weekend.

[Antonius]

I don't think you'll need Canonist or rule of law. Just get Runed Halo up on vengevine. That shafts both decks hard enough, esp. when you combine it with Leyline against storm.

I've been testing this build:

19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

4 Swords
1 Path to Exile
4 Top
4 Enlightened tutor
4 Chant
2 Silence

2 Isochron Scepter
2 Runed Halo
1 Luminarch Ascension

2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle
1 Pithing Needle

1 Humility
1 Moat
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Wrath of God
1 Endless Horizons
1 Goblin Charbelcher

SB--

1 Wrath of God
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Pithing Needle
1 Noetic Scales
4 Baneslayer Angel

I have to say, as a long time lands player, playing this deck is so frustrating because sometimes you just don't draw land. I've been tempted to up the land count to 24 and run two Dragons. If the Endless Belcher Combo doesn't pan out, I might take them out for another path and one other win con (don't know what, yet, though). I'm not running painter/grindstone because it's really bad against CBtop. It also diminishes the manplan out of the board.

I have yet to test the Baneslayer man-plan against any relevant decks. It is pretty fun though.

[NiRVeS]

@Antonius:
I've tested the angel-plan before and I was unimpressed. Thing is, because our deck doesn't run counterspells, it's very hard to keep her alive. Often, people don't side out their removal so they get stuck with those is hand and then they suddenly have a target and it's bye bye Angel. Against TES, VV or Merfolk (decks without creature-removal), I find that BSA is just too slow. Due to daze we're talking turn 6-7 here at least, and well, TES-matches are often functionally over in 4-5 turns. Also, BSA is often unnecessary since often the deciding factor is just being able to reach that part of the game - once you get there, Quinn's bombs naturally take over. I do have to say that I'm playing without Moat and with 2 Humility's MD, and that I consider those cards among the best things Quinn has to offer atm, so the non-synergy with BSA and Humility influences my judgement as well. In all circumstances, let us know what your testing shows you, I'm interested to hear.

Currently, I'm testing with the following list for a big tournament coming up:

18 Snow-covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets
1 Darksteel Citadel

3 Eternal Dragon
2 Painter’s Servant

2 Grindtsone
4 Sensei Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle

3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abeyance

3 Wrath of God


Some notes:
- maindeck Peedle has been AMAZING with all the Survival-builds running around. It also partly adresses the retainers > Iona problem for that matter (ichorid dread returning the b*tch still sucks though). It's pretty good against merfolk as well (wasteland, vial, mutavault, commander) and even against Sneak Show (shutting off sneak attack forces them to use SnT, which gives you a nice little window to drop humility / O-Ring). Nabbing pridemage, deed or Jace doesn't hurt either.
- I still prefer abeyance (over silence). As the last paragraph should show you, being able to hit activated ability's is at a premium right now.
- Darksteel Citadel is a little "tech" I stole from Gitmo, another deck I'm playing around with. Being able to tutor for a land without having to worry about wasteland is better than you might imagine at first sight.
- I would like to fit a Relic of Progenitus somewhere, but I have no clue what I would cut. Still, the card's become increasingly powerfull due to Vengevine and it's till decent against Goyf (and Ichorid, duh) as well.

Now, for the SB I'm still tinkering. This is what I figured out so far:

2 Ghostly Prison
3 Pulse of the Fields

These were the MVP's in previous incarnations of the deck, so I'm definitely keeping these in. Prison tightens up the Goblin and Merfolk-matchups by a significant margin, Pulse does this as well + does quite a number on Zoo. Both cards strengten Humility, which (on it's own) strengtens WOG.

2 Silence
1 Isochron Scepter

These 3 slots are a concession to stax, lands and enchantress. Although neither of these matchups are very prevalent, devoting 3 slots doesn't seem that bad of deal to handle all 3 of them al at once. Silence has additional use against stormcombo (obv) and it can be noted that due to many people abandoning Chant in ANT/TES, in favor of discard-spells, scepter has become a viable option for these matchups as well.

3 Ethersworn Canonist

Vs TES and Vengevine.

4 Alternative kill

So that leaves these 4 slots which still have to be decided upon. Since painter-grindstone doesn't work against decks with Emrakul in them, I want to be able to side those out and bring in a new kill. Bonus point if the cards can go around Counterbalance, this way I could bring them in vs that matchup as well. The question remains: which cards do I bring in? As I mentioned to Antonius, I'm not that fond of bringing in creatures, especially since having access to Humility is key vs Emrakul. This means that BSA and Stuffy Doll/Guilty Conscience are out. Belcher/Horizons seems viable, although it IS pretty slow. What concerns me most though, is the fact that it doesn't necessarily kill on the spot, due to the presence of 5 non-basics in the deck - although if I were to play this combo, the citadel would be cut for a regular snow plains. Other options I've considered are Chimeric Mass (no combokill, but it goes around SB and has great synergy with Humility. Also, it doesn't require another card to be good), Elspeth 1.0 (perhaps in combination with the Mass?) and Luminarch Ascension (horrible topdeck, but great when drawn early and sick vs landstill / CAB Jace). What do you guys think? Did I miss any options?

The SB I have now lacks on the following matchups:
- Counterbalance: even with ray of Distortion, this matchup remained pretty bad so I stopped devoting particular SB-slots to it.
- Ichorid: I don't expect to face too many of these, so I decided not to include additional hate (Prison's still pretty good). GY-hate would be great against VV as well, but I already have other answers which adress that matchup, all of which are decent in other macthes as well. Lets' just say I had the option to shoot for VV + Ichorid or VV + other decks and decided to go for the latter.
- Zoo: the post-board matchup will be pretty rough since they'll get access to K. Grip, whereas I've only got Pulse to bring in.

What else did I miss?

Grtz

[(nameless one)]

I have found the same problem with decks that pack Emrakul. I was thinking of using the 4 Combo slots with my old win condition (2 Decree of Justice, 1 Martial Coup, 1 Genju of the Fields) Those four cards are more utility though than win-condition, although it can be used as win-con when needed. All those cards are also great under Humility. The only problem I had with them was theyre too slow for a win-con.

Edit: On the other note, Morningstar's list came top 8 at that Lisbon league (4th)

[Antonius]

@NiRVeS: Seems as though you're probably on the money with that analysis on BSA. However, I think the reason people keep their removal in against you is because you have creatures in your maindeck, most notably, a creature that's part of a two-card kill. They have to keep their hate in.
I think i'm going to revise my sideboard to something like this:

1 Wrath of God
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Noetic Scales
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Decree of Justice


I don't get why you're going for canonists against TES/Vengevine. Vengevine is just going to trinket mage for memnite or pitch rootwalla to get memnite. Run more Runed halos and Leyline of Sanctity. Halo stops Vengevine cold and Leyline + Halo is all you'd need to slow storm to a crawl. Leyline also protects your hand from their discard, giving you enough room to set up chant-lock, which most storm builds have no out against. Leyline also makes the burn matchup trivial and shuts off 8-10 burn spells in the Zoo deck.

[(nameless one)]

I have a couple of questions about your sideboard:

It seem that you do not have against the control matchup. Yes, Aura of Silence is good against Enchantress but what about Landstill and CounterTop. CounterTop could also hit 3CC, plus they will board in Krosan Grips. I think Ray of Distortion good against CounterTop. Against Landstill, I think its a race between you and their Jace.

Against Zoo, What do you side out for Leyline of Sanctity? I find that the main list is good enough to deal with Zoo but Zoo can pull off that crazy hand that has full blown burn.

Also, whats the Noetic Scales for?

Oh, would Decree of Justice and Moat go well together? Yes, Decree makes flying angels but for the most part, I would rather cycle it.

And are Runed Halos your own defense against Vengevine? I think using 2 Humility would help that cause because deck that run Vengevine also run either Qasali Pridemage and/or Trygon Predator.

Also, how does Wonder in the yard work under Humility?

[NiRVeS]

@NiRVeS: Seems as though you're probably on the money with that analysis on BSA. However, I think the reason people keep their removal in against you is because you have creatures in your maindeck, most notably, a creature that's part of a two-card kill. They have to keep their hate in. You're right about the "keeping removal in" part. Since, in general, I try to NEVER play my painter unless I'm able to combo with chant protection that turn, that part doesn't really bother me. It just makes it so that relying on a creature to stay in play for 3-4 turns seems unrealistic in that case.


I think i'm going to revise my sideboard to something like this:

1 Wrath of God
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Aura of Silence
1 Karmic Justice
1 Noetic Scales
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Decree of Justice
Looks fine, although you might be a little short on the "dealing with aggro"-plan. I would like to see your actual boarding plan. I have been testing against merfolk (15 lord list, no standstills, maindeck spell pierce) a lot lately, and it has taught me that game 1 is pretty even to slightly unfavorable, whereas games 2 and 3 become very favorable - but that is thanks to the fact that I gain Ghostly Prisons and Pulse of the Fields (I pull out 2 Abeyance, 1 Sacred Mesa, 2 Oblivion Ring) while they hardly bring in anything. I feel as if only having acces to 2 prisons + one more WoG (which often comes a turn too late if you're trying to get around daze) is a bit lacking.


I don't get why you're going for canonists against TES/Vengevine. Vengevine is just going to trinket mage for memnite or pitch rootwalla to get memnite. Run more Runed halos and Leyline of Sanctity. Halo stops Vengevine cold and Leyline + Halo is all you'd need to slow storm to a crawl. Leyline also protects your hand from their discard, giving you enough room to set up chant-lock, which most storm builds have no out against. Leyline also makes the burn matchup trivial and shuts off 8-10 burn spells in the Zoo deck.
I hadn't thought about Memnite, and you're absolutely right. I might change 1 Canonist for another Halo because of this. However, against storm I still prefer access to Canonist since it actually puts some sort of pressure on them. Hiding behind halo/leyline seems like a fine plan but if you give them too much time (which will often be the case, since you probably spent you're tutors to get the lockpieces, so you'll need time to assemble the combo), they'll eventually break free. I will admit that your arguments for Leyline of Sanctity, which is a very strong card, sound convincing, but I don't think I'm willing to devote 4 sideboardslots to it - I'm already lacking space for GY-hate or Ray of Distortion. Canonist and Halo can be usefull in other matchups, Leyline has less appllications and is too slow if you haven't got one in your opening hand. I don't know what to think about boarding leylines vs Zoo, it definitely seems a lot worse than having Pulse of the Fields. I don't consider burn.dec to be a factor in deciding my SB plans, so that argument (albeit very true) doesn't hold much value is this debate. And Pulse is still pretty good against burn too :).


It seem that you do not have against the control matchup. Yes, Aura of Silence is good against Enchantress but what about Landstill and CounterTop. CounterTop could also hit 3CC, plus they will board in Krosan Grips. I think Ray of Distortion good against CounterTop.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I've come to believe that the countertop matchup is bad enough to just be ignored. Boarding Ray of Distortion helps, but it doesn't turn the matchup enough to make it favorable for us. Also, keep in mind that countertop is playing more 4-drops these days (jace, elspeth, natural order) so you're not even guaranteed to get a hit like you used too.


Against Landstill, I think its a race between you and their Jace.
Pithing Needle, Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo can deal with Jace. Enlightened Tutor can find all of these. We have top to protect ourselves from getting locked under the +2-ability. Jace is a very strong card, but I don't find it particulary problematic for Quinn.


Also, whats the Noetic Scales for?
Given that his list only has a single Humility, I think it's for fighting Iona, Emrakul, Progenitus, KotR,...The card is stronger than you might think, although Brittle Effigy might actually be worth considering as well.


Also, how does Wonder in the yard work under Humility?
Wonder still works (Humility only affects creatures on the board) so your opponents creatures will have flying. Since we normally don't have any blockers ourselves, that seems pretty irrelevant, unless you're running Elspeth.

Grtz

[Henrik]

Wonder still works (Humility only affects creatures on the board) so your opponents creatures will have flying. Since we normally don't have any blockers ourselves, that seems pretty irrelevant, unless you're running Elspeth.


Not necessarily true, according to layer-rules.
For Wonder-Humility interactions, the timestamp applies. If wonder hits the yard when humility is already in play, the creatures fly. If you would later on play another humility, they don't.

EDIT:
I looked at the video of Morningstar's deck vs the blue-control deck in the tournament report section. In one single game, you played 3 O-rings (1st on the first Jace, 2nd on your own O-ring, 3rd on the Shackles). Then when I saw the list in the same post, I only found 2 O-rings in the 75. Is that list incorrect? (I noticed that in the list posted by Nameless One on the last page, played by Luis Ribeiro, there were actually 3 O-rings.)

[(nameless one)]

On the second tournament, one of the Orings was switched to Pithing Needle on the MD

[NiRVeS]

Not necessarily true, according to layer-rules.
For Wonder-Humility interactions, the timestamp applies. If wonder hits the yard when humility is already in play, the creatures fly. If you would later on play another humility, they don't.Double checked this and you are correct. Normally I recon myself pretty good at this layer stuff, so sad face here for screwing this up :(.

[(nameless one)]

And I believe the same can be said with Tabernacles right?

[Sisyphos]

My current list:

19 Snow Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Runed Halo
3 Oblivion Ring

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Eternal Dragon

2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
1 Sacred Mesa

2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
2 Abeyance

1 Pithing Needle


Board
4 Leyline of Sancticity
2 Peacekeeper
1 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Abeyance
1 Karmic Justice
1 Story Circle


I know nothing special. Pretty standard.

Couple of comments:
- Eternal Dragon
Has gotten a lot weaker with the addition of Humility. Still needed I think. I dropped them for a while but the amount of games I lost due to mana screw instantly increased a lot. They are the "fetchlands" of this deck. Five shuffle effects is the bare minimum to have for good Top usage. A lot of lists play 4 E.Tutors, but several times I had the answers I wanted in hand, but needed more lands. Tutor is no help there.

- Abeyance
I like the additional versatility it provides over Silence. Silence is basically Orim's Chant 5-6 and unless there are strange things like Misdirection to consider, they are bad Chants. Abeyance costs more (sometimes quite nice when up against CB) and is not a complete Time Walk. You can do a lot of nice stuff though in combination with other cards. I saved Moats from Pridemages, a lot of stuff from EEs and it works nicely against planeswalkers too.

- No Elspeth
Played her for some time, was nice, won some games, but I didn't consider her essential to the overall plan of the deck. If you don't get out of the gates perfectly, you do not want to tap out for her an turn 4 against aggro, without additional support from cards like Moat/Wrath/Humility she's not that strong, but sometimes she just randomly wins. Still not completely decided but at the moment space is too tight.

- 1 Halo / 1 Needle
The awesomeness of Needle has been discussed in the last posts. I like Halo as a silver bullet. You can handle a lot of stuff with it. Progenitus, planeswalkers, Belcher, Brian Freeze, Burn, etc.

Board
- Leyline
Evil. Simply evil. Comes in against everything playing burn or discard, combo or Jace. It's useful against a wide variety of threads. Pulse of the Fields is good against burn, but it costs a ton of mana. And if you get it too late, they can use the stack to kill you anyway. Getting hit by Duress and Hymn is crippling, the draw engine of the deck will only give you more land, you will not get more then one action card / turn. Against combo the uses are pretty obvious. Against Zoo, yeah it's a bit iffy. But Pulse can be too slow there too. And if they resolve Sylvan, Pulse is useless.

- Peacekeeper
Wins a lot of games by itself. Most decks will stock up on stuff like Pridemage or Grip after boarding and take out their creature removal. Again it adds an element of diversity to the deck. Focusing only on enchantment and artifact solutions means that all their cards kill all of yours. Adding creatures to support Moat/Humility/Story Circle forces them to use slots that only handle a couple of your threads. It's true that the deck plays a creature as part of the combo kill, but there are only two Painter's Servants and they get killed by Grips and Pridemages as well, so it makes more sense to rely on those as removal in games 2 and 3 to maximize the amount of cards to kill the big enchantments as well. You get a huge edge and can surprise many a player with Peacekeeper. If they want to have creature removal and enchantment removal after boarding, they need to take out threads, making them slower and giving you more time by diluting their game plan. Most decks only have a very limited amount of slots to use for removal without disrupting their own plan.
And did I mention that it destroys Merfolk? Several people have pointed out that Wrath/Moat/Humility can be a turn too slow when playing against Daze or Spell Pierce. Peacekeeper is one turn faster then all of those. The upkeep is irrelevant as you will have more then enough time to get going afterwards. And nothing beats the look of a Show and Tell player when they plop down their Emrakul only to see a Peacekeeper.

- Tutor Targets
Pretty happy with those at the moment. Additional help against a lot of stuff. I'm not completely sure about Karmic Justice and the Halo. Justice can be awesome against decks relying on EE or Grip but it doesn't change the game that much. As for the Halo, I have one main and you rarely want a second one.

- No Decree / Ray of Revelation
There has been a lack of CB decks around here lately. Besides, as has been previously mentioned, Rays are not that good against those decks anymore anyway and they are narrow as hell. Oblivion Ring can be caught more easily with CB and can be removed but it is so much more useful in other situations. Decree has gotten a lot worse in the recent months. More EEs and Firespouts mean less surprise game wins.

- No Aura of Silence
Can't remember the last time I saw Affinity or Enchantress around here. Simply not needed.

- Noetic Scales
Sounds nice, not sure if it is worth the four mana though. Unless you cheat it into play via their Show and Tell it might be a bit on the slow side.

- Ghostly Prison
Most of the stuff about Peacekeeper is applicable here. They get used against the same sort of decks, but Prison dies to the same stuff that the rest of the deck dies to. Peacekeeper does not. Peacekeeper stops Emrakul, Prison does not. Not convinced.

[(nameless one)]

I would like to disagree with you when it comes to Elspeth. Yes, the deck can win with or without Elspeth but for the most part, I think the deck needs more pressure. Locking down opponents is awesome but not making the Top8 because of draw sucks the fun out of locking down opponents. I find Elspeth shines against aggro and control.

I do agree on your Peacekeeper idea. Although, I wouldn't say that your opponents will not side out pinpoint removal when they see Painter's Servant is needed for you to win.

If I have time, I will try this Peacekeeper idea.

[NiRVeS]

Concerning the alternate kill-condition-idea vs Emrakul etc: how bad would Opalescence + Enchanted Evening be? It nukes all lands in play, which will almost always mean they'll never play another spell (remember that most Sneak Show lists play Spirit Guides over Petals because the extra functionality with Sneak Attack). Meanwhile, you have a 5/5 beater in play. Cost-wise, it's 9 mana, which is still less then Horizon's-Belcher. Since in my testing, preventing them from killing us doesn't really seem the issue (humility etc...), I think getting to that stage in the game should be doable.

It does get complicated when you add Humility to the mix though. Basically, this will happen (warning, advanced layer-shizzle coming):
Layer 4: type-changes
Since opaslescence (O) depends on enchanted evening (E); apply E first. Everything becomes an enchantment, and then everything accept for O become a creature.
Layer 6: ability adding/removing
Humility (H) removes all abilities, from all permanents accept for O (since thats not a creature). Because E and O already started apllying in layer 4, this doesn't prevent there effect from applying here or further on.
Layer 7b: p/t setting
Since within this layer there is no dependency, apply H and O in timestamp order. H after O will make everythng 1/1, O after H will make everything P/T (thus destroying all lands).

(and with 2 opalescences, this all remains the same although you'll have 2 more creature, namely the 2 O's.)

Looking at other Emrakul-decks, i think the doomsday lists are kold to this combo as well, and so is Eon Bridge. Survival (with retainers) seems like the only deck to me which builds enough board presence to not loose from us assembling this combination.

The manacosts on this combination means that it should be possible to slip them through an active counter-top lock, and you could even add Replenish to the board to provide extra support.

Any thoughts on this?

Grtz

[(nameless one)]

This is the ruling with the mentioned cards: http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=!Opalescence (Opalescence)


This is the current interaction between Humility and Opalescence: The type-changing effect applies at layer 4, but the rest happens in the applicable layers. The rest of it will apply even if the permanent loses its ability before it's finished applying. So if Opalescence, Humility, and Worship are on the battlefield and Opalescence entered the battlefield before Humility, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments. (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities. (Humility) Layer 7b: Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4. (Opalescence). Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). But if Humility entered the battlefield before Opalescence, the following is true: Layer 4: Humility and Worship each become creatures that are still enchantments (Opalescence). Layer 6: Humility and Worship each lose their abilities (Humility). Layer 7b: Humility becomes 1/1 and Worship becomes 1/1 (Humility). Humility becomes 4/4 and Worship becomes 4/4 (Opalescence).

Anyways, that win condition, it does take a lot of slots but wiith Replenish, it seems okay. Possibly take out 2 Grindstone/2 Painter's Servant for those? By Either way, all the mentioned pieces suck by themselves anyways.

[NiRVeS]

This is the ruling with the mentioned cards: http://www.magiccards.info/query?q=!Opalescence (Opalescence)

Anyways, that win condition, it does take a lot of slots but wiith Replenish, it seems okay. Possibly take out 2 Grindstone/2 Painter's Servant for those? By Either way, all the mentioned pieces suck by themselves anyways.

I'd take out 2 painter / 2 grindstone / 2 something (depends on what emrakul-deck we're talking about) for 2 evening, 2 opalescence and 2 replenish. I would also consider to bring in Ghostly Prison to make replenish/opalescence better and because it does have some value against emrakul anyway (mainly in sneak-atatck scenarios). Also, once Evening/Opalescence is down, even with humility in play, Prison will prevent them from attacking all together.

Now if we could just find a card-filtering tool, we could board into full on replenish.dec :p.

Grtz

[(nameless one)]

Like an Enchantress-less Solitaire?

I have suggested boarding in Open the Vaults against control before. Could that help the cause?

[Sisyphos]

I would like to disagree with you when it comes to Elspeth. Yes, the deck can win with or without Elspeth but for the most part, I think the deck needs more pressure. Locking down opponents is awesome but not making the Top8 because of draw sucks the fun out of locking down opponents. I find Elspeth shines against aggro and control.

I agree that time can be a bit of a problem. In the recent local tournaments I only suffered one draw because I could not kill my opponent fast enough though. A lot of rounds have finished just before time was called, but so far drawing hasn't been that much of a problem. And the one draw I got wouldn't have been prevented by Elspeth either. I locked my opponent (playing Vengevine Survival) with Peacekeeper. Attacking soldiers was not an option there.

As I said I don't think Elspeth is bad as such, she has won several games for me as well. Unanswered planeswalkers usually do. ;) I just cut her because space is so tight and she seemed like the least needed. What would you cut for Elspeth in my list? The main Halo? One of the PtE? I can't really come to terms with cutting the Eternal Dragons. 1/1 for 5WW is crappy, that's true. BUt late game especially against controll I'm quite happy to have a recurring shuffle effect and never missing a land drop. Scrying Sheets is not completely and utterly reliable and shuffling with Top in play is essential to find your answers, especially O-Rings to deal with other planeswalkers.


Although, I wouldn't say that your opponents will not side out pinpoint removal when they see Painter's Servant is needed for you to win.

Maybe they should not take them out, but especially if they do not know about the Peacekeeper coming in or if they do not have enough experience playing against Quinn, quite a lot of people take out at least some of their removal against you. It's just an angle people sometimes don't consider in the couple of minutes boarding against you. Try it in a couple of games, I have been very satisfied playing Ghandi.


Like an Enchantress-less Solitaire?

I have suggested boarding in Open the Vaults against control before.

Sometimes I really wish the deck would have a reliable option to recur cards. It might sound crazy but especially after winning game one I usually even board out some of the few win conditions the deck plays, going down to one copy of PainterStone quite regularly. The glaring disadvantage of this is that losing one combo piece means you have only the Mesa to win with. Maybe my boarding is plain wrong or I'm too careless with the win conditions after boarding, but situations like that make me really consider adding Open the Vaults or something similar. Apart from recurring win conditions you can get back all the other disruputive stuff that has been countered. Most decks have enough removal to get rid of your lock pieces one time around, but the second time is quite hard.

[Schulz]

This is my deck for the tourney tomorrow. Just seeing if anyone has any last minute suggestions.

Main
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Isochrone Scepter
1x Pithing Needle

1x Decree of Justice
4x Orim's Chant
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God

2x Eternal Dragon

3x Runed Halo
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
1x Humility

Side
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Humility
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Story Circle
1x Rule of Law
2x Leyline of Sactity
2x Pithing Needle
2x Wing Shards

My meta is going to have a lot of survival and Merfolk. With a small chance of Goblins and Zoo. With possibly no Storm

[(nameless one)]

I would use Wheel of Sun and Moon as Vengevine hate. I used to advocate against Elspeth but I find that you need more threat as.

I have had positive matchup with Vengevival decks. The key is removing their early Hierarch and Halo on Vengevine.

Anyways, good luck and let us know how your tourney goes, whether you do good or bad.

[Schulz]

I would use Wheel of Sun and Moon as Vengevine hate. I used to advocate against Elspeth but I find that you need more threat as.

I have had positive matchup with Vengevival decks. The key is removing their early Hierarch and Halo on Vengevine.

Anyways, good luck and let us know how your tourney goes, whether you do good or bad.

I was planning on running wheel already I just couldn't get my hands on them until right now. so my SB is -2 Wing Shards +2 Wheel of Sun and Moon

[Schulz]

Nevermind, i have decided that bringing in a card that stops my painter win is very bad. Back to Wing Shards

[torgar]

Wing shards for Vengevine? Looks good. I've been missing old Wombat tech

[(nameless one)]

So we're not too worried about Vengevival anymore... Would a single maindecked Pithing Needle still worth the slot or is it too good of a tool against the format?

It does stop anything from Vial to planeswalkers. I just wish that we could use another filter machine other than Sensei's Divining Top. This way, Pithing Needle can solve our problem against CounterTop decks (if PNeedle does resolve).

[The Treefolk Master]

So, I'm thinking of building this deck. My meta (in large tournaments) consists mainly of Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins, with very few counterbalance and control, and the rest filled by TES and other combo decks, aswell as niche aggro decks. At my local store, there is quite a lot of discard, both Pox and Dark Horizons. There are also various affinity decks. Such being the case, would you recomend building this deck? I have tested a bit, absolutely crushing Goblins and Pox, and finding Merfolk and Dark Horizons favorable. I could appreciate if you could give me some more insight on the other matchups.

Thanks.

[(nameless one)]

What other control decks do you have in your meta?

I find that CounterTop decks are hard matchups. I usually find control to be a have hard matchup.

[The Treefolk Master]

This was my last big tournament meta:

Zoo: 5
Goblins: 5
Merfolks: 4
Eva Green: 4
Dredge: 3
WW: 3
Mono Red Burn: 3
Landstill: 2
Pro Bant: 2
UW Control: 2
Mono Black Aggro: 2
Sneak Attack: 2
UW Fish: 2
Mono Green Destroyland: 1
Solidarity: 1
Infect: 1
Chaimera: 1
Painter: 1
Survival WG: 1
Aggro Loam: 1
Canadian ********: 1
TPS: 1
Belcher: 1
Dark Depths: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Dark Horizons: 1
BG Control: 1
Pox: 1
Mono Green Aggro: 1
Enchantress: 1
Survival UGw: 2
Survival GB: 1
Survival UG: 1


I was playing landstill and obviously ran into the other landstill player in round 2...

[(nameless one)]

Would you like to share the current list youre working on?

[The Treefolk Master]

I don't know much about the deck, so I copied the list used by Luis Riberio in the "Liga Gargula Legacy" in Portugal. I don't think I made any changes, but I'm not completely sure:

19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Painter's Servant

2 Grindstone
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Sacred Mesa
1 Story Circle
2 Humility
1 Moat
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Silence
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Orim's Chant
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Day of Judgment

[(nameless one)]

Your list looks good so far. I am a big fan of running 2 Humility as it is just great against the format. I was never a fan of Moat. Yes it can randomly give you a win against goblin and other aggro based strategies but a lot of creature based decks can easily deal with Moat. Merfolk now has Coralhelm Commander, Zoo and Bant-based aggro has Qasali Pridemage. Moat doesn't stop Emrakul and Goblins can still steal a win against Moat with Siege-Gang Commanders/Goblin Sharpshooter.

I am not saying that Moats are bad because they are not. However, I find Humility to be the superior 4-mana creature control spell. You can leave the Moat if you want but if I were going to run Luis's list (mine is almost identical), I would run Pithing Needle on that slot instead. Pithing Needle is champ against the format. It can stop planeswalkers, nullify AEther Vial, it can even act as Land Disruption (you can name a fetchland).

Just an advise against Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins, I know it's supposed to be a positive matchup but I find that you will actually need to practice because using the wrong answers on the wrong cards or wrong tutor timing can actually set you back a turn, which with these decks is enough to beat you.

Don't be afraid to use Orim's Chant against these decks to buy you a turn.

If you have a question with a particular matchup, just ask away and I will answer with the best of my knowledge.

[The Treefolk Master]

Thank you for your help. I think I will leave the Moat in though, it has helped me a lot during my testing and many times has been an "oops, i win" card, or at least it has bought me many turns.

I was using chant effects early against goblins & merfolks, but wasn't 100% that was the right approach to the match up. Now I know it is :D. I'll test the deck some more and if I'll decide to put it together I'll post my results.

Once again, thank you.

[(nameless one)]

If you don't mind, what does your sideboard look like and what are you tuning it against?

[The Treefolk Master]

I'm really not sure, but I suppose it would be something like:

4 Leyline of Sanctity (POX, Combo, Burn)
1 Rule of Law (Combo and Enchantress)
1 Ethersworn Canonist (not really sure if I want another one of these instead of the Rule of Law).
2 Pulse of the Fields
1 Wrath of God
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 ???

I would like something against control, you mentioned Open the Vaults, although other options could be Luminarch Ascension (easy to kill sadly) and Sun Titan (Plowable, yes that's a word (?) ).

Peacekeeper could also be included, as a 2-3 of.

In my local meta I would like to beat POX (a good matchup already, I think), Dark Horizons, and Affinity (shouldn't be a problem due to the sheer amount of removal). The only control deck in my meta is a lonely Tezzerator deck (no countertop) which pops up from time to time.

[(nameless one)]

Against Pox, I find either Karmic Justice or Sacred Ground helpful although Karmic Justice has more 'utility'. Good luck with your playtesting.

[GoldenCid]

I don't know much about the deck, so I copied the list used by Luis Riberio in the "Liga Gargula Legacy" in Portugal. I don't think I made any changes, but I'm not completely sure:


2 Silence
4 Orim's Chant


Here, maybe Abeyance in exchange of silence could be a good option. It's almost the same and it's cantrip!

I prefer Karmic justice over open the vaults i you ask me.

And isn't be good add 1 copy of crucible of worlds?

[The Treefolk Master]

I've found Silence to be better. The cantrip issue has never mattered up to know.

I don't think crucible is good in here, you don't have anything interesting to recurr.

[Sisyphos]

Merfolk now has Coralhelm Commander

Moat is a lot stronger against Merfolk than Humility. Coralhelm just means that they are not completeley dead after Moat, but Moat basically says: "Hi, you are now playing a 4-card-deck. Good luck finding them without any search and say hello to my 16+ creature removal saved up for those 4 cards if you do find them."

Humility on the other hand lets them poke you with 20 1/1 creatures. Sure it buys alot of time, but if you do not find Wraths, you will be in trouble anyways.

[The Treefolk Master]

I think that it is not a matter of Moat vs. Humility. They both have their strenght's and weaknesses, so I would run them both.

[GoldenCid]

I think that it is not a matter of Moat vs. Humility. They both have their strenght's and weaknesses, so I would run them both.

God point! Both! Moat is an excellent answer vs dredge and aggro tribal decks (commander can be sworded / O-ringed / Runed haloed).

And by the way...Worship is too bad here?

[Arc]

Hi , i'm new on The source but i read thead since long time.
I play MQ since 2 month on MWS and i play Legacy contol deck at good level on tournement since many year
Yesterday for 1st time in tournement i play MQ. I was interested in the deck since M10 new ruling that allows to play humility + painter.

In our tournement we was 25 players

I play that list:

Name Qty Sideboard
Scrying Sheets 4
Snow-Covered Plains 19
Isochron Scepter 2
Sacred Mesa 1
Enlightened Tutor 3
Wrath of God 3
Grindstone 2
Swords to Plowshares 4
Orim's Chant 4
Oblivion Ring 2
Sensei's Divining Top 4
Moat 1
Humility 1
Runed Halo 1
Abeyance 2
Open the Vaults 1
Pithing Needle 1 1
Elspeth, Knight-Errant 2
Peacekeeper 1
Painter's Servant 2
Tormod's Crypt 0 1
Relic of Progenitus 0 1
Story Circle 0 1
Ray of Distortion 0 2
Faith's Fetters 0 1
Karmic Justice 0 1
Leyline of Sanctity 0 4
Aura of Silence 0 2
Ethersworn Canonist 0 1
Lands: 23, Spells: 34, Crt: 3 60 15

I end at 5 positon/25 with 3Win and 3Draw, i don't lose any round.

1 round: Landstill UBG - Draw
2 round: UW control Show and tell- Draw
3 round: Zoo - Win
4 round: 43land - Draw
5 round : Bant - Win
6 round : The Rock - Win

The deck is really good , stable. Surprise effect is really efficient.
May be i made many draw cause it was the 1st real time i play it on tournement, but in general i think the deck need more (or better) Win condition.
If i had be able to kill faster a don't made so many draw and could finish better that 5/25.

[(nameless one)]

Based on what you played, it's obvious on what you drew against.

How was Open the Vaults and Peacekeeper on your main? I usually have those as Sideboard cards.

[Arc]

Imho of new MQ player, Open the Vaults and Peacekeeper are usefull in main, cause:
- game are long , on late game controle deck had counter many your keyspell, destoy many artef - enchentement with CB , Fow, Vindicte, Pulse, Qasali, Deed, Kosian grip,... so Open the vault ( with a orim's chant before if necessary) give you the 1st game.
- some deck can't deal with Peacekeeper, many can't deal with after a Scepter/Orim's Lock.

But may be it's depend to local metagame, i had to be prepare to beat UGB Landstill, Show and tell deck and Merfolk in my local metagame.

I got some other idea for win agressivity, but need to test. For exemple , i'll try Luminarch ascension instead of Sacred mesa. With many mana, Luminarch is a strong kill that allows 1 turn kill.

I don't want to cut any SB slots for the moment cause it was good in each game i have done. I'm just interested in add a 2nd Karmic justic cause it's was really strong VS Rock, Landstill UGB, Bant.

[laxkiddan]

I feel like these decks are too slow (using scrying sheets). It's a good engine, but not quick off the line. I prefer 4 ancient tombs, which allow for turn 2 chant/scepter combo. Sure, you'll lose some life, but you'll get some lands before it hurts, all while the opponent is handcuffed. Going away from the scrying sheets also allows me to put a couple Ancient dens in (which allows me to tutor for them in worst case scenario).

Also, people seem to be debating between abeyance and silence. Play them both! It's always better to have something to put on the scepter (or play from hand), rather than having some costly cards in hand. This deck is more defensive, so I ditched the power cards like Elspeth, sacred mesa, etc. to make room for both silence and abeyance.

I use iron maiden as my life-loss win condition. This is a plan B for if the mill fails. The opponent is being silenced/chanted, so they should have a full hand. Try to save this for game 2.


Main Stuff
2x Grindstone
2x Painter's Servant

4x Isochron Scepter
3x Abeyance
4x Silence
4x Orim's Chant

Board Control
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
1x Rule of Law
1x Story Circle

Other
1x Iron Maiden
4x Enlightened Tutor

Removal
2x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
3x Oblivion Ring

Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
12x Plains
1x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Ancient Den


SB:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Karmic Justice
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Luminarch Ascension
2x Runed Halo
2x Angel's Grace
2x Disenchant

[hjalte]

I feel like these decks are too slow (using scrying sheets). It's a good engine, but not quick off the line. I prefer 4 ancient tombs, which allow for turn 2 chant/scepter combo. Sure, you'll lose some life, but you'll get some lands before it hurts, all while the opponent is handcuffed. Going away from the scrying sheets also allows me to put a couple Ancient dens in (which allows me to tutor for them in worst case scenario).

Also, people seem to be debating between abeyance and silence. Play them both! It's always better to have something to put on the scepter (or play from hand), rather than having some costly cards in hand. This deck is more defensive, so I ditched the power cards like Elspeth, sacred mesa, etc. to make room for both silence and abeyance.

I use iron maiden as my life-loss win condition. This is a plan B for if the mill fails. The opponent is being silenced/chanted, so they should have a full hand. Try to save this for game 2.


Main Stuff
2x Grindstone
2x Painter's Servant

4x Isochron Scepter
3x Abeyance
4x Silence
4x Orim's Chant

Board Control
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Humility
1x Rule of Law
1x Story Circle

Other
1x Iron Maiden
4x Enlightened Tutor

Removal
2x Path to Exile
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Wrath of God
3x Oblivion Ring

Lands
4x Ancient Tomb
12x Plains
1x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Ancient Den


SB:
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Karmic Justice
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Luminarch Ascension
2x Runed Halo
2x Angel's Grace
2x Disenchant

This seems wrong to me. You are playing a control deck, which do not have any source of card advantage, save for two Wrath of God. This you do, so you can play ancient tomb. Furthermore you only play 19 land. This is 3 or 4 too few for a control deck, in my opinion. You don't want to waste a card to tutor up a land. You want to use that tutor to find answers, or your win condition, not land.

Another thing that strikes me is, that you don't play top. Top is one of the best cards in the deck, so why don't you play it?

When I play Quinn, I use chant effects to buy time in crucial spots, or to force through vital pieces. Not as a main strategy to keep your opponent from playing anything. The trouble with this strategy, as I see it, is mainly when you are on the draw, and primarily against aggro.
If your are on the draw, they will most probably have a guy out turn one. You can either start to chant them or remove their guy. The chant plan will only hold them off for a turn or two, and you will still take damage from their turn1 guy. Furthermore, when you cannot chant them anymore, they will probably have a full grip, and some lands on the table, and with you only having 19 land, there's quite a large risk, that you wont have made all your land drops, when you cannot chant them anymore.


My most important point is. How do you play a control deck, with only 2 sources of card advantage and quality, and with 12 card disadvantage spells (I include chant effects here). (Scepter don't count directly as card advantage, as you will only have card parity after two turns and 6 mana, if you put a sword effect on it.)

[laxkiddan]

I think the main reason this deck doesn't play top is because it plays both abeyance and silence. Where the top-based decks search for the upcoming cards, this deck just handcuffs the opponent. I simply find that top tends to be a dead card in this deck.

And i feel too much emphasis is being placed on the land count, considering ancient tomb produces 2 mana. Most of the cards have a cost of 2 or less.

[Arc]

laxkiddan:

Your list is really different of original MQ, you cut CA engine, you lost Basic land stability, and you only run 2 Win condition.
Any deck with Kosian grip + extirpate beat this list for sure.

I haven't test so maybe your list is good, but it's hard to compare other MQ list.

[Schulz]

I think the main reason this deck doesn't play top is because it plays both abeyance and silence. Where the top-based decks search for the upcoming cards, this deck just handcuffs the opponent. I simply find that top tends to be a dead card in this deck.

Top is never a dead card. It has been the difference in winning some games and losing, because you do not always have an Enlightened Tutor and Chant effects don't always stop them from winning. Abeyance is a good card but just drawing a card doesn't always help. A lot of decks can play around being chanted by using Aether Vail which is very popular right now.


And i feel too much emphasis is being placed on the land count, considering ancient tomb produces 2 mana. Most of the cards have a cost of 2 or less.

Ancient Tomb also deals 2 damage to you and i find my life total to be very important to me. Scrying Sheets helps you dig through your deck when you use Top. Also I find having lands in my deck a good thing because i don't want to have to mull due to not getting any plus there is no way that i will use a Tutor to find a land. That is why you run Eternal Dragon, not only as a Win Con but to shuffle and get you lands.

On a side note:
I'm trying to figure out a Sideboard for this coming weekend. The meta will be full of Fish and Storm and i wanted to know which Board you thought would be better or if there are better cards i should add.

Side #1:
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Humility
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Story Circle
1x Rule of Law
2x Leyline of Sactity
2x Pithing Needle
3x Path to Exile
1x Silence

Side #2:
2x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Humility
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Story Circle
1x Rule of Law
4x Leyline of Sactity
2x Pithing Needle
2x Path to Exile

I will also post my list later this week to get your opinions

[(nameless one)]

Hey Schulz,

I think the sideboard all depends on your main. But if I were running my list and I had to pick a side, I would choose the second one. Leyline is either a 4-of or 0. I try mull to it if I'm playing against Storm-based combo (except Elves).

I do agree that additional removal is needed against Merfolk as they have permission in their arsenal. Some of the spells you play will be stopped.

What does your list look like?

[k2thej]

This seems wrong to me. You are playing a control deck, which do not have any source of card advantage, save for two Wrath of God. This you do, so you can play ancient tomb. Furthermore you only play 19 land. This is 3 or 4 too few for a control deck, in my opinion. You don't want to waste a card to tutor up a land. You want to use that tutor to find answers, or your win condition, not land.

Another thing that strikes me is, that you don't play top. Top is one of the best cards in the deck, so why don't you play it?

When I play Quinn, I use chant effects to buy time in crucial spots, or to force through vital pieces. Not as a main strategy to keep your opponent from playing anything. The trouble with this strategy, as I see it, is mainly when you are on the draw, and primarily against aggro.
If your are on the draw, they will most probably have a guy out turn one. You can either start to chant them or remove their guy. The chant plan will only hold them off for a turn or two, and you will still take damage from their turn1 guy. Furthermore, when you cannot chant them anymore, they will probably have a full grip, and some lands on the table, and with you only having 19 land, there's quite a large risk, that you wont have made all your land drops, when you cannot chant them anymore.


My most important point is. How do you play a control deck, with only 2 sources of card advantage and quality, and with 12 card disadvantage spells (I include chant effects here). (Scepter don't count directly as card advantage, as you will only have card parity after two turns and 6 mana, if you put a sword effect on it.)

This is a control deck, but this is not a blue control deck. The reason white control works, and the main advantage that it has, is card advantage is a minimal concern-this is why stax works. White's control elements are permanents, once they are in, they stay in. Blue needs card advantage because their control elements (counters) are one-offs. Laxkiddan is moving in the right direction with his list. Card advantage is irrelevant if they cannot play their cards.

As for top, without fetchlands it isn't as good. Scroll rack is perfect for this deck. You see more cards faster, and the way the deck is designed you only need to activate scroll rack once at most and you will have a huge advantage.

As for your paragraph about "the way I play Quinn..." has some good points about Laxkiddan's build when using your strategy, but I think the most important thing to notice is that Laxkiddan is not playing your strategy. IMO, you are looking at this deck wrong, especially against aggro. I don't see your point at all, aggro is this decks best matchup! As soon as you get a chant on the scepter, even if it is turn 3 or 4, they can't attack for the rest of the game. Win? I think so. Not to mention the wraths and humilities.


So in conclusion, this deck needs to start being viewed more like Laxkiddan's list (especially his new one which I think he will post very soon). Highest priority scepter chant, permanent control effects, wraths, and scroll rack/tutor to find the combo if necessary. Does his list need tweeking? Sure, but it's a hell of a lot closer than anything else I've seen-especially the lists that treat it as if they were playing a blue control deck.

[laxkiddan]

This updated version removes cannonist, pithing needle, iron maiden, and ghostly prison. It add 3 scroll racks and an extra humility. Ideally you want to see chant on the scepter 1st turn, use it 2nd turn, and stall the opponent for the rest of the game.


4 Isochron Scepter
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant
3 Scroll Rack

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Story Circle

3 Abeyance
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
2 Path to Exile
4 Silence
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God

2 Ancient Den
4 Ancient Tomb
12 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair

[Xiang]

This is a control deck, but this is not a blue control deck. The reason white control works, and the main advantage that it has, is card advantage is a minimal concern-this is why stax works. White's control elements are permanents, once they are in, they stay in. Blue needs card advantage because their control elements (counters) are one-offs. Laxkiddan is moving in the right direction with his list. Card advantage is irrelevant if they cannot play their cards.

As for top, without fetchlands it isn't as good. Scroll rack is perfect for this deck. You see more cards faster, and the way the deck is designed you only need to activate scroll rack once at most and you will have a huge advantage.

As for your paragraph about "the way I play Quinn..." has some good points about Laxkiddan's build when using your strategy, but I think the most important thing to notice is that Laxkiddan is not playing your strategy. IMO, you are looking at this deck wrong, especially against aggro. I don't see your point at all, aggro is this decks best matchup! As soon as you get a chant on the scepter, even if it is turn 3 or 4, they can't attack for the rest of the game. Win? I think so. Not to mention the wraths and humilities.


So in conclusion, this deck needs to start being viewed more like Laxkiddan's list (especially his new one which I think he will post very soon). Highest priority scepter chant, permanent control effects, wraths, and scroll rack/tutor to find the combo if necessary. Does his list need tweeking? Sure, but it's a hell of a lot closer than anything else I've seen-especially the lists that treat it as if they were playing a blue control deck.

First of all I find this aproach of mono white interesting as chant lock steals games of unprepared opponents quite often- taking this into consideration prioritizing a fast scepter may be a good idea.

"The reason white control works, and the main advantage that it has, is card advantage is a minimal concern-this is why stax works" this is true....

BUT:

Quinn is not stax. Quin was disigned to use the snow-engine in order to generate card advantage. This is what defines Quinn as a deck and makes it different from stax. In fact it is the reason why this deck is called the mighty Quinn. So if you want to discuss a stax like aproach to mono white control (ancient tomb in order to get a lock out rather quickly), what might be a good idea as scepter chant is fairly strong, I would strongly appreciate if you opened a new thread for this in the developmental forum. The game philosophy is just a different one as you stated above.

sry for my bad English -.-

[(nameless one)]

This is a control deck, but this is not a blue control deck. The reason white control works, and the main advantage that it has, is card advantage is a minimal concern-this is why stax works. White's control elements are permanents, once they are in, they stay in. Blue needs card advantage because their control elements (counters) are one-offs. Laxkiddan is moving in the right direction with his list. Card advantage is irrelevant if they cannot play their cards.

As for top, without fetchlands it isn't as good. Scroll rack is perfect for this deck. You see more cards faster, and the way the deck is designed you only need to activate scroll rack once at most and you will have a huge advantage.

As for your paragraph about "the way I play Quinn..." has some good points about Laxkiddan's build when using your strategy, but I think the most important thing to notice is that Laxkiddan is not playing your strategy. IMO, you are looking at this deck wrong, especially against aggro. I don't see your point at all, aggro is this decks best matchup! As soon as you get a chant on the scepter, even if it is turn 3 or 4, they can't attack for the rest of the game. Win? I think so. Not to mention the wraths and humilities.


So in conclusion, this deck needs to start being viewed more like Laxkiddan's list (especially his new one which I think he will post very soon). Highest priority scepter chant, permanent control effects, wraths, and scroll rack/tutor to find the combo if necessary. Does his list need tweeking? Sure, but it's a hell of a lot closer than anything else I've seen-especially the lists that treat it as if they were playing a blue control deck.

Actually, any control deck needs card advantage late game. The main difference between white-based control and blue-based control is that blue-base is active while white-base is passive. Blue control prevents the opponent's board control while white control answers whatever the opponent has on the board. In order to achieve either strategies, you must have an ample amount of resource. This is where card advantage shows up.

Yes, Staxx and Quinn are both passive decks but while Staxx focuses on denying the opponent any advances on the board, Quinn tries to deal with whatever the opponent has on the board. Both decks might use permanents to try to control the game, they both have different roles. It's like comparing Landstill strategies and Counter-Top strategies. Besides, not all whites control elements are permanents. See Swords to Plowshares, Orim's Chant and Wrath of God...

As for Top vs. Scroll Rack; on particular decks, Top is really effective if you have Fetchlands. But this deck utilizes Top differently. Rather than having Top as a card selection machine, this deck (using the Snow Land engine) turns Top into card drawing machine. You don't really need a shuffling effect if 2/3 cards get removed out of the top of your deck to give you a fresh top3 off of your Top. Granted that sometimes shuffling is good, it is not a necessary constant like other Top-based decks (such as Counter-Top). Enlightened Tutor should provide enough shuffling this deck needs. Scroll Rack on the other hand, is terrible late game. If you do not have any cards in your hand, Scroll Rack is a dead card. You cannot draw a card with Scroll Rack with an empty hand while you can with Top. Also, keep in mind that Scroll Rack is also terrible without any shuffling effects.

The only way to feed your hand is with the Snow Engine. You need a big hand and a shuffling effect to have Scroll Rack for optimal use. If you run Fetchlands to provide shuffling, your Snow Engine will be less effective. If your card advantage machine is less effective, your card selection engine (Scroll Rack) won't be as effective. He reason why Scroll Rack was so good in Parfait (another variant of Mono-White Control) is because it had Land Tax to abuse it.

And you are right. We are looking at Laxkiddan's deck the wrong way. Why? Because his/her strategy is far different from Quinn. His/Her main goal is to control the opponent by locking the opponent out of the game via Scepter-Lock. This deck's main goal is to answer all the threats provided by the opponent before we set up our own threat. This deck uses Orim's Chant effects to merely slow the opponent's development and It just happens that Scepter is good with it, Swords to Plowshares and to some extent, E-Tutor; hence it is used in the deck.

Don't get me wrong, I like Laxkiddan's idea but it just feels like it's a whole new deck with the same pieces (Kinda like Zoo vs. Sligh or 4cc CounterTop vs CounterTop Thopters)

[laxkiddan]

The deck I posted diverges enough that I'm putting it as new developmental deck under "Handcuffs." The core mechanics are more of its own deck than it is Quinn.

[Xiang]

Has anyone tested the Dreadstill matchup(Uwb)? How do you play and board against it?(Luis Ribeiro's old list sb:-2 pulse; +1open the vaults;+1E.canonist)
My brother has been playing Quinn - we playtested and I won 18 games against him straight. I couldn't figure out what he was doing wrong.... Is this Matchup just bad?

[(nameless one)]

I honestly haven't tested against it.

Maybe try to ride the Etutor>Runed Halo or Swords to Plowshares train? The problem against that matchup is it has permission. If you can delay the game, you might be able to hold your opponent off until you get a Humility online.

[Xiang]

Hm I use to run jace + mishra's in dreadstill humility blanks the creas but doesn't ensure the win. You have to find a solution for jace and Mishra's too (and resolve it through counterbalance and or counters + standstill). Dreadstill plays against Quinn a bit like the evil version of MUC (muc with countertop and more card advantage).

How would you play against blue based control in genera (aside from trying to resolve open the vaults in the lategame)l?

[(nameless one)]

I personally think that any blue-based control matchup is a bad matchup. Blue would just counter whatever you're playing. The deck has little to no way of recurring its answers/threats. CounterTop and Jace gives me fits when I play this deck.

But for reasons of hopes, Oblivion Ring is there against Jace/any problem non-land permanent. Pithing Needle is there against both Jace and Mishra's Factory. Open the Vaults might be helpful postboard. Someone suggested Sun Titan before post-board as well. It might not go well with Humility but I think for this matchup (or any control matchup), Humility is coming out anyways.

[(nameless one)]

I just came back from a small local tourney. 13 players. Its one of the many regular tournaments in town (although I cant promise I'll be able to play on every tournament)

Anyways, heres what I brought:




19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Painter's Servant

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Story Circle

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Silence

1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pulse of the Fields
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Aura of Silence
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Karmic Justice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ray of Distortion
1 Tormod's Crypt



I know my sideboard is everywhere but it was a last minute thing. I accidentally forgot my sideboard at home. Luckily my buddy has Leylines and the rest came from trade binders/EDH decks. I also forgot Sacred Mesa with that sideboard, hence the Ghostly Prison on the main.

Round 1: I forgot his name (Belcher)

G1:
He wins the dice roll then proceeded with a massive turn 1 Empty the Warrens. I managed to StP one but it was over from the beginning.

G2: Out- 4x StP, 2x Humility, 1x Circle; In- 4x Leyline, 1x R Bomb, 1x P Needle, 1x Ghostly Prison
I tried mulling for a Leyline but instead got something with Chant and Tutor. I figure that if he gets to 7 mana or 4 mana with LED online, I'll Chant him before he can get a Belcher online then Tutor for Needle on my upkeep or if he catches my pants down with EtW, just tutor for the Ratchet Bomb so after contemplating for a couple of minutes, I kept my hand. I went Plains go. I figured he didn't have Duress or something similar because he just started comboing out. I cant remember exactly what he did but all I remembered was he had a LED online, and he was about to cast Tinder Wall with 2 more mana floating when I responded with a Chant. I guess I calculated it right because he went WTF. A couple turns later, I Grinded him to death.

G3:
I tried mulling for a Leyline again and I got it. I drop a turn 0 Leyline. He tried comboing out and I find myself facing an army of 1/1 Goblin tokens. I went Plains, go. He kinda had that smile then he swung with his army of 1/1 Goblin tokens. I then went EOT Tutor for Ratchet Bomb. Played Bomb on my turn, blew up his tokens. Elspeth later got in there FTW. He later revealed he had 2 Duresses on his hand.

1-0 (2-1)


Round 2: Maneek with Sligh featuring Valakut.

G1:
He essentially got me down to 5 (Halo naming Lighthing Bolt saved my ass). But with Halo and a couple of StP on his Lightning Elementals, I slowed him enough to get him Grinded with Chant protection.

G2: Out- 2x Humility, 1x Wrath, 1x DoJ, 1x Prison, 1x O Ring; In- 4x Leyline, 2x Pulse
I get a turn 0 Leyline. He didn't want to scoop so we played it out. I get a turn 4 Circle on Red for his creatures. I tried winning with an Elspeth but there was too much burn. I also made the mistake of comboing out without protection (thinking that hes out of burn due to Elspeth). Painter's Servant got burned. Although my second Elspeth cleaned up for the first one and won the game.

4-1 (2-0)

Round 3: Thompson with Burn

G1:
He got me down to 4 (Halo naming Lightning Bolt saved my ass again). I managed to get a Circle naming red online. I then Grinded him out for the win.

G2: Out- Essentially the same above. I kept StPs thinking that he might have a couple of creatures (although I didnt see anything)
I get a turn 0 Leyline. He scoops.

6-1 (3-0)

Round 4: George with Combo Elves

G1:
I tried mulling for a Top and I got it on my 1st attempt I managed to slow him down. I made his Glimpse fizzle (from a Silence). I used StP and O Ring on his Symbiote and his mana elves. I managed to get a Prison online. I tried slowing him down with a couple of Kicked Chant. I even used both Wrath and Day of Judgement but he still managed to combo out (via Priest, another 4 elves in play and a Staff of Domination). When I saw it, I didn't scoop right away. I wanted to see his actual win condition. I said I could prevent it but he showed me Emrakul. I then scooped.

G2: I honestly don't recall how exactly I sided out. All I remember was Ratchet Bomb going in and Story Circle going out. Can't recall if there was more to it since I started getting headaches at this point.
I essentially slowed him down to the point I got him ScepterChant locked. Elspeth then cleaned up the mess.

G3: I got Ratchet Bomb at one. Good enough to slow him down and he wastes a Krosan Grip for it. I then managed to Ghostly Prison, I Tutored for Humility (which slowed him down, could also be a mistake). He Griped that Humility. I Tutored for another Humility again. I had Chant in my hand so I Tutored for a Scepter (which I think is also a mistake). I did managed to ScepterChant him out of the game but he refused to scoop. I finally got a Painter's Servant online. When I named using his ability, he needed to call the judge because of the Humility. There was a long discussion. Unfortunately even with extra time, I was unable to draw the last Tutor or any Grindstones. I definitely misplayed when I forgot to attack with my token from Elspeth. I managed to bring him down to 8 but it wasn't enough.

7-2-1 (3-0-1)

I did managed to Top 8. I was going to face my friend next round but I decided to drop (because of the headache). He was thankful for this and later traded for cards that I needed for EDH for me. Also, as a consolation for making top8, I get a pack of Besieged (opened a Praetor's Counsel)

Props:
- Leyline for saving my ass all day.
- For my buddy getting me a couple of good cards for EDH (Earthcraft, Eternal Witness, Regrowth, Nissa and Yavimaya Coast). He also got me a Sun Titan because he thought my deck needed it. (I believe he got $40 store credit for being top4, not bad for a $10 fee).
- Fire and Lightning Premium deck; we had 3 Burn/Sligh decks among use because of it.

Slops:
- People not taking showers or use deodorant
- Forgetting my sideboard home
- Headaches

[lordofthepit]

G2: Out- 2x Humility, 1x Wrath, 1x DoJ, 1x Prison, 1x O Ring; In- 4x Leyline, 2x Pulse
I get a turn 0 Leyline. He didn't want to scoop so we played it out. I get a turn 4 Circle on Red for his creatures. I tried winning with an Elspeth but there was too much burn. I also made the mistake of comboing out without protection (thinking that hes out of burn due to Elspeth). Painter's Servant got burned. Although my second Elspeth cleaned up for the first one and won the game.


Was he burning Elspeth's Soldier tokens? Or was he casting stuff like Flame Rift and Price of Progress and redirecting that to you? Because Leyline--especially with Circle in play--should stop most of his burn from hitting Elspeth (since it needs to target you first before being misdirected).

[(nameless one)]

Ohh... He was burning my soldier tokens then Elspeth. I didn't know that. Now I know. Thanks.

[HokusSchmokus]

What dó you guys think of White Sun's Zenith as an extra win condition?

[(nameless one)]

I thought about WSZ as a win condition, though I never really tested it, I think it's not ideal in my list. I would rather run Sacred Mesa and even then, I did not miss Mesa. However, in the budget versions that don't run PainterStone combo, I could see it work there as a one or two-of, paired with Marshal Coup.

[Schulz]

What dó you guys think of White Sun's Zenith as an extra win condition?

Sacred mesa is just better for this kinda of a win con due to it being able to keep pumping out guys and guys that can fly. So it has better synergy with Moat. It also takes to much mana to make effective. while Mesa can be done all end of turn so you can still do other things.

[(nameless one)]

Also, if youre running Humility instead of Moat, you don't really get milage you want from WSZ.

That said, I think Elspeth is better (with my Humility build). Although Sacred Mesa still has that spot in the sideboard (for matchups that need additional threats, like the control mirror)

[(nameless one)]

Update (for those who still run the deck):

So what about "Phyrexian Unlife" from the upcoming New Phyrexia set?


Phyrexian Unlife 2W

Enchantment

You do not lose the game for having 0 or less life.

While you are at 0 or less life, all sources of damage to you gains Infect.



I think this is a great maindeck card. Currently I have a single Ghostly Prison and Story Circle on the main the help me buy time setting up my board control. Unfortunately Ghostly Prison doesn't really work against Storm and Burn and Story Circle is too slow for Burn (and doesn't work against Storm). I have been contemplating running a single Pulse of the Field on the main but not being able to tutor for it was always the downfall of the card.

Anyone else see this potential?

[Schulz]

Update (for those who still run the deck):

So what about "Phyrexian Unlife" from the upcoming New Phyrexia set?




I think this is a great maindeck card. Currently I have a single Ghostly Prison and Story Circle on the main the help me buy time setting up my board control. Unfortunately Ghostly Prison doesn't really work against Storm and Burn and Story Circle is too slow for Burn (and doesn't work against Storm). I have been contemplating running a single Pulse of the Field on the main but not being able to tutor for it was always the downfall of the card.

Anyone else see this potential?


I think that it really isn't that good. If you want it to help against the Storm match up it doesn't really help. I have played against a lot of Storm and they would have no problem playing 5 more cards when going off. For other decks there are better cards that you can run to try and hold off your opponent. I see Ghostly Prison and Story Circle being a better choice.

What is your list?

[Clark Kant]

Schultz, storm causes life loss, not damage.

So as long as you have that card in play, you can't lose to Tendrils of Agony. Since the card specifically says, you don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.

It's a rather versatile one of that can be Enlightened Tutored up. It slows down aggro, burn, and tendrils based combo. I like it.

[4eak]

Despite the difficulty in splashing, particularly in maintaining the snow engine which many consider sacrosanct to Quinn, has anyone tried splashing black? There are some serious bombs in black.

This is tailored to board control, but it could easily be adapted:

// Mana producing Lands -- 22
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
4 Plains

// E-Tutor + SDT engine -- 15
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Dark Tutelage
2 Bitterblossom
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 The Abyss

// Stall and Removal -- 20
3 Pulse of the Fields
3 Maze of Ith
4 Vindicate
4 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Austere Command

// Other Win-Con + Utility -- 3
2 Eternal Dragon
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant


// Sideboard
SB: 1 Dark Tutelage
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Crucible of Worlds
SB: 3 Austere Command
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Aura of Silence
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Chains of Mephistopheles
SB: 1 Story Circle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity

This version is fairly light on sweepers. This is acceptable because Dark Tutelage is a pimp and shuffle effects make Top very powerful when looking for 1-of and 2-of's. Stalling with Maze and Pulse and token producers is what you want to do anyways, that way you maximize the effect of a sweeper.


Vindicate is pretty amazing -- O-Ring really isn't even close to the same thing, as I'm constantly having to worry about O-ring removal, and I don't for Vindicate.
Dark Tutelage + SDT is sweet, Pulse of the Field lends a hand when necessary
Bitterblossom is always amazing, and with Pulse of the Fields once in a while, it can be maintained very easily
The Abyss and Chains of Mephistopheles are weird cards, but they are powerful effects. Learning to play around their symmetry is important -- once you do, they are pretty outstanding. Chains is especially nice for pwning cantrips, Standstills, etc.



peace,
4eak

[Jason]

I think casting Phyrexian Unlife is just going to make your opponent want to Grapeshot you that much more. But, I also missed the "you don't lose the game for 0 or less life" clause. I thought it was an Ali from Cairo situation where your life stayed at 1 when I initially read it. Seems much better to me now!

[(nameless one)]

I think that it really isn't that good. If you want it to help against the Storm match up it doesn't really help. I have played against a lot of Storm and they would have no problem playing 5 more cards when going off. For other decks there are better cards that you can run to try and hold off your opponent. I see Ghostly Prison and Story Circle being a better choice.

What is your list?

My current list (though it needs to be updated since I haven't played a Tournament post SotF banning):


19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Painter's Servant

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Runed Halo
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Story Circle

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Silence

1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God

Clark Kant essentially explained what I want to say. I really hope New Phyrexia has a lot of non-creature mono-white control cards.

On a different note, has anyone thought of adding more combo pieces on the side against the combo matchup. Half of the time, even I have a couple of combo hate on the field, I'd still lose the game since I can't win in a fast way, giving them ample time to sculpt a really good hand. You guys might say that the Tutor should be searching for them but for the most part, I would use the tutors to find hate before the combo pieces. Anyone on this?

@4eak:

I like your list. Essentially using Dark Tutelage as the draw engine (abandoning the Snow Engine). But I think that's a completely new deck. People might say Dark Confidant is better but not when you want to hose aggro with Humility.

[Maëlig]

Very interesting list 4eak, indeed black brings some nice cards. I would try to fit a crucible in the main (it's much better than in traditional quinn thanks to fetches and factories). Humility is also particularily good here with factories and BB, I would up the count to 2 or even 3 (and probably elspeth to 2 too). What's the reasoning behing austere command instead of wrath? I'm not sure path is the best piece of removal to complement swords, have you tried innocent blood? I'm not too fond of maze here, I get the rationale for playing it along sweepers but "missing" a land drop with this deck seems like something you can't afford.

[4eak]

I would try to fit a crucible in the main

I'll test it out. I think Dark Tutelage #2 would almost always be better.


Humility is also particularily good here with factories and BB, I would up the count to 2 or even 3 (and probably elspeth to 2 too).

I've also been trying out more token-oriented builds. Having Moat and Humility in play at the same time can be problematic, if you don't Elspeth out especially. You end up destroying one of your own lockpieces after amassing a giant army to alpha strike. I'm definitely considering dropping Moat, Humility might be the way to go.


What's the reasoning behing austere command instead of wrath?

Flexibility and power (easily worth the 2 extra mana). I've an enormous amount of testing with sweepers, and Austere Command is outright the best pick if you only have a handful of sweepers in your deck. You have plenty of tools to stay alive, your sweepers are just raw card advantage and reset buttons, and you want them to be big.

I did have Wrath/Damnation, and I eventually took them out. Wrath sits in your hand too much. Command helps you win in so many more situations.


I'm not sure path is the best piece of removal to complement swords, have you tried innocent blood?

I will test it. Path is amazing in a deck which doesn't care much about the opponent's mana development, as long as you use it as late as possible, the drawback is negligible. Instant speed RFG is out of sight; the only reason Innocent blood is worth it will be for untargetables, which is a good enough reason to test it -- otherwise Humility is doing too much work.


I'm not too fond of maze here, I get the rationale for playing it along sweepers but "missing" a land drop with this deck seems like something you can't afford.

Being virtually uncounterable (although, quite Wasteland-able) and free is huge. I think dedicated board control decks should run Maze of ith unless they have a very compelling set of reasons not to. That said, a major reason for taking Maze out is that you need to adapt the deck for non-creature based matches, aiming perhaps for combo, then I agree that there are better things to do with the slot.

You can afford to miss a lot of land drops given the curve of the deck -- it is only your bombs that require 4 mana -- you can easily stay alive on 3 mana. Maze takes practice, I think. Having the ability to switch gears from board-development to full defensive mode, where you instead drop Maze and keep mana open for targeted removal and/or Pulse stalling is very powerful.


peace,
4eak

[(nameless one)]

Hey 4eak,

How do you fight combo post sideboard? I don't think a single Canonist and Leyline is really helpful. Yes, they're both tutorable but relying too much on tutor to deal with combo early game won't really help you.

And why Eternal Dragon? Maybe Lilliana Vess for more card quality (which is also great with Dark Tutelage).

Also, I think you're deck is a whole new deck idea. Maybe a new thread? Don't get me wrong, its has a great card advantage engine (which every control deck should have) but I just think that your idea is branched out too much.

[4eak]

How do you fight combo post sideboard? I don't think a single Canonist and Leyline is really helpful. Yes, they're both tutorable but relying too much on tutor to deal with combo early game won't really help you.

I don't expect to beat combo, at all. That said, I get a lot of bang for my buck with those singletons -- moving from a completely unwinnable spectrum of archetypes to an uncommon but possible victory (most people anticipate Chants). Those cards are in the sideboard serve a lot purposes actually. Leyline, for example, is particularly good against burn and discard, but has other applications as well.

I think we have to come to grips with two facts:

1) You can't build an effective control deck for the entire Legacy metagame. You need to choose your battles; you need to specify a metagame, or a part of a metagame, you want to answer.
2) Decks with really bad combo matches can still be quite viable in Legacy.


And why Eternal Dragon? Maybe Lilliana Vess for more card quality (which is also great with Dark Tutelage).

As much as others might not like him, I think dragon is quite good. Finding land, having the shuffle effects, diversifying your win cons, and the uncounterable card advantage it can provide is reasonable enough.

Vess costs a lot for what you get, I think. I'm rarely impressed by black's win cons in control decks. Vess is no exception. And, no, it doesn't work well with Dark tutelage. You usually want to tutor up bombs that will cost you a lot of life.


Also, I think you're deck is a whole new deck idea. Maybe a new thread? Don't get me wrong, its has a great card advantage engine (which every control deck should have) but I just think that your idea is branched out too much

I'll do that if it really matters. I think it is pretty close in a lot of fundamental ways to what Quinn does. The snow-land difference is big enough that I can see why you want this out of here.



peace,
4eak

[Schulz]

Schultz, storm causes life loss, not damage.

So as long as you have that card in play, you can't lose to Tendrils of Agony. Since the card specifically says, you don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.

It's a rather versatile one of that can be Enlightened Tutored up. It slows down aggro, burn, and tendrils based combo. I like it.

Yeah I realized that later but still even with that all they have to do after they cast Tendrils or even before they cast it is bounce Unlife.


I think casting Phyrexian Unlife is just going to make your opponent want to Grapeshot you that much more. But, I also missed the "you don't lose the game for 0 or less life" clause. I thought it was an Ali from Cairo situation where your life stayed at 1 when I initially read it. Seems much better to me now!

Even if they do not Grapshot you making a bunch of Goblins is still a very good option.


@4eak

If you could take the conversation on that deck list to another thread that would be greatly appreciated.

[Nekrataal]

Went to a small tourney on Saturday and decided to play this deck again. 3:1 was quite satisfying (matchups see below). This was the list I played (a little bit more anti-aggro -centric):

19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

2 Painter's Servant

2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Grindstone
1 Pithing Needle

2 Humility
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Story Circle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Moat

4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God

SB:
2 Slience
1 Karmic Justice
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pulse of the Field
1 CoW
2 Aura of Silence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb

Matchups:

Round 1: RB Goblins
G1: He gets a mediocre start and I sword away a few Goblins before Humility hits. Still he is pumping out a lot of guys to swarm me. With SDT I manage to find a WoG in time, wipe the board and assemble a missing combo piece next turn.
G2: Don't remember if I SB at all. G2 resembles G1 but I combo quite earlier. His green guys never get past Moat after some first turn hits.

Round 2: UBW Thopter Tezzeret
G1: I am short on mana but can play Humility finally since he has run out of counters. Still a single Confidant survived. Agent Tezzeret just seals the game since his artifacts are 5/5 all of a sudden :(
G2: He counters everything I have. Finally a Moat sticks. He completes Thopter Combo the turn after. Sad face. I topdeck Humility for the aggro lock. It sticks. But he already has found EE via SDT and blows it for 4 with the help of a Mox Opal also loosing his Planeswalker. 5/5 SDT beats me down.
It didn't feel like a good matchup. The deck was pretty cool ...

Round 3: Deadguy Ale feat Stoneforge + Equipments
G1: He hyms and duresses me so my hand is empty soon. However I can land a SDT and later Humility to buy time. With SDT I keep a Chant floating just in case. When I see a scepter I go for it and put down a lock on him. He concedes because he has no outs.
G2: Similar to G2 with making a huge play error. I have him locked with Moat/Humility and Scepter Chant. However I tap out to play some Combo Crap to win next turn instead of keeping mana open for the lock. I realize the error as soon as I have played the cards. Too late to go back. He vindicates a lock peace and attacks for deadly damage.
G3: I combo out T4 with Chant protection against Vindicate (T1 Grindstone, T3 Painter and Chant him in his upkeep). Win next turn.

Round 4: Dragonstompy
G1: Have to play my teammate. Anyway from testing we know that he shouldn't win a single game. Overconfident and unconcentrated I promptly loose G1 to Koth and CotV = 3 :(
G2: I sword his first threads, Land Humility, Elspeth and a lone flying Soldier seals the game.
G3: He mulligans to 5. I combo out early. Simple as that.

Pros:
The deck is always fun to play due to several reasons: Many opponents are totally unaware of the deck's strategy and how it wins or what lock pieces to expect. Once these hit he game there is aften sad face. I realize that this deck must be frustating for an opponent.
The deck wasn't as inconsisting in fiding answers as I remembered. Maybe it is just that my playstyle has improved a little over the last two years.

Cons:
Playing my teammate.
Being unconcentrated 2 times

[(nameless one)]

How was Ensnaring Bridge?

Also, How do you think Phyrexian Unlife would affect this deck? I was thinking of removing a Story Circle from my main list and replacing it with Unlife.

Also, CoW on the side = Crucible of Worlds?

I was thinking of running additional combo pieces against control and combo but never really tested.

I find that any blue decks are hard to deal with. Its just how the deck goes. Maybe I am playing it wrong the whole time. Nice job though.

[Nekrataal]

Ensnaring Bridge was in against all the decks running Emrakul & Co and as additional anti-creature tech. But in the end there wasn't just one game I remember where it was relevant or where I went fetching it via a tutor. CoW indeed is Crucible. I chose it above that (can't remember the name right now) enchantment to protect your lands because it enables you to recover even if "the worst" already happened. Came mostly from testing against my mate who tested a lot of Stax versions lately and Armageddon just sucks. Personally I think that Phyrexain Unlife is nothing else than 10 extra lifes and not worse playing.:wink: Yeah blue decks are rather bad matchups. Often they do not care about our big plays, just creep in some damage here and there, gaining card advantage, countering things too dangerous and always staying ahead. I always feel like not having enough resources to get there.:frown: Our draw engine is soooo weak and our 4 non-basics are often traded for Wastelands once the opponent understands how the trick works with SDT.

[Schulz]

I am going to the GP in Providence this weekend and wanted some thoughts on my list. I am currently running a Sun Titan in my main because I'm not sure what to put in. Also I have an open slot in my side deck and needed some help with that too. If you could give me some thoughts so i can test them before i go that would be very helpful and appreciated.

Main Deck
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Painter's Servant
2x Grindstone
2x Isochrone Scepter
1x Pithing Needle

1x Decree of Justice
4x Orim's Chant
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God

1x Eternal Dragon
1x Sun Titan

1x Gideon Jura

3x Runed Halo
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
1x Humility

Side Deck
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Humility
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Ray of Distortion
1x Rule of Law
4x Leyline of Sactity
2x Pithing Needle

[(nameless one)]

Why Gideon? Is he that good? The way I see it, he doesn't work so well under Humility or Moat. Why not Elspeth1.0 instead?

Also, I feel the deck in general needs more threats on top of the PainterStone combo the 1-of other threats. Mental Misstep is projected to be more everywhere in GP Providence. You will have a hard time resolving that Grindstone.

I know you are running Sun Titan to maybe recur a destroyed or countered Grindstone but at only one? Also, Sun Titan doesn't work so well under Humility and Moat.

Also, Runed Halo at 3? Why? I think it should be fine at 2.

I personally would try Phyrexian Unlife and some means to gain life. If they attack you under a Phyrexian Unlife, your life just goes down to 0. Then try to gain some life before they get another chance to touch your life again and your at 0 again. Just make sure that Unlife doesn't get destroyed on the process. Definitely needs more testing.

Another thing I am thinking of is for the deck to run its own copies of Mental Missteps. This way, you can resolve an early Top without having your opponent getting ahead of you.

[Schulz]

Why Gideon? Is he that good? The way I see it, he doesn't work so well under Humility or Moat. Why not Elspeth1.0 instead?

Gideon is actually really good and wins games because if he hits the table he is not easily removed. While he is bad when Moat is on the board he is still very good when Humility is in play because he still becomes a 6/6.


Also, I feel the deck in general needs more threats on top of the PainterStone combo the 1-of other threats. Mental Misstep is projected to be more everywhere in GP Providence. You will have a hard time resolving that Grindstone.

This is true. The Painter combo will be hard to land but it has always been hard to land. They only have 4 Missteps in the deck and can not always have them in their hand so it is just like playing around any other kinda of counters. You need to make them use them on other things first.You can not play scared magic just because they made a card that can counter almost a third of the deck.



I know you are running Sun Titan to maybe recur a destroyed or countered Grindstone but at only one? Also, Sun Titan doesn't work so well under Humility and Moat.
I am currently running a Sun Titan in my main because I'm not sure what to put in.

That still does not help me.


Also, Runed Halo at 3? Why? I think it should be fine at 2.

I really like the card and feel it helps the deck a lot.


I personally would try Phyrexian Unlife and some means to gain life. If they attack you under a Phyrexian Unlife, your life just goes down to 0. Then try to gain some life before they get another chance to touch your life again and your at 0 again. Just make sure that Unlife doesn't get destroyed on the process. Definitely needs more testing.

I want cards that help me win not make me lose slower. I'm playing to win not not lose. So i need something that can get in for the win. At most this is a side deck card.


Another thing I am thinking of is for the deck to run its own copies of Mental Missteps. This way, you can resolve an early Top without having your opponent getting ahead of you.

This just sounds like a bad idea altogether.

Also i still need a suggestion on another card for my side deck.

[(nameless one)]

Why Ray of Distortion on the side instead of Aura of Silence? I know Ray of Distortion is used over Aura of Silence because of CounterTop but that deck is at its all time low. Aura of Silence is a good sideboard against Enchantress and any artifact decks.

Speaking of artifact decks, I have a feeling that people will be prepared to deal with artifacts, PainterStone combo would be one. Would it be wise to switch the combo with Planeswalker win-con instead? Possibly 2x Elspeth 1.0 and Xx Gideon? This way you can have more 'defense' slots.

If you want to stick with combo, why not use Silence or Abeyance as additional Chant effects to secure your combo.

I know most of the things I've suggested aren't as help but hopefully you get more help from other guys. I myself haven't touched the deck since Besieged (I've been playing MUD as of late). Anyways, good luck at the GP. Go make top8 and make a name out of this deck!

[Schulz]

Why Ray of Distortion on the side instead of Aura of Silence? I know Ray of Distortion is used over Aura of Silence because of CounterTop but that deck is at its all time low. Aura of Silence is a good sideboard against Enchantress and any artifact decks.

The main reason I like it more then Aura of Silence is that it has flashback. It has helped me win a bunch of games just having my opponent forget about it and then just flash it back for the win.


Speaking of artifact decks, I have a feeling that people will be prepared to deal with artifacts, PainterStone combo would be one. Would it be wise to switch the combo with Planeswalker win-con instead? Possibly 2x Elspeth 1.0 and Xx Gideon? This way you can have more 'defense' slots.

I will try to test this a bit before but I feel it will take more time then I have to make a good list with that as the main win-con then I have before the GP. So I will stick to PainterStone for now.


If you want to stick with combo, why not use Silence or Abeyance as additional Chant effects to secure your combo.

I have been trying to think of what to cut to put Abeyance back in my list for a while. I just can not seem to make a choice. Any suggestions?


I know most of the things I've suggested aren't as help but hopefully you get more help from other guys. I myself haven't touched the deck since Besieged (I've been playing MUD as of late). Anyways, good luck at the GP. Go make top8 and make a name out of this deck!

Thanks I will be trying my best to do so.

[Schulz]

Went 4-3 drop will post. List I used when I get back home for anyone who cares

[(nameless one)]

Went 4-3 drop will post. List I used when I get back home for anyone who cares

I care...

Did Mental Misstep majorly affect this deck?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The deck could survive Misstep. I'd be more worried about all the equipment, planeswalkers and manlands.

[(nameless one)]

What about utilizing Stoneforge Mystic? The sword package Stephanie provides is good against both aggro and control. Though there's minimal creature in the deck, I think the deck can utilize it.

Also, Squadron Hawk + Scroll Rack anyone?

[kinda]

What about utilizing Stoneforge Mystic? The sword package Stephanie provides is good against both aggro and control. Though there's minimal creature in the deck, I think the deck can utilize it.

Also, Squadron Hawk + Scroll Rack anyone?

Hawks are solid with humility and ensnaring bridge...well kinda.

[bruizar]

Went 4-3 drop will post. List I used when I get back home for anyone who cares

Looking forward to see the list.

[Schulz]

This is the list I ran for the GP.

Main Deck
4x Scrying Sheets
18x Snow-Covered Plains

4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Painter's Servant
3x Grindstone
2x Isochrone Scepter
1x Pithing Needle

1x Decree of Justice
4x Orim's Chant
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Wrath of God

2x Sun Titan

1x Gideon Jura

1x Runed Halo
1x Sacred Mesa
3x Oblivion Ring
1x Moat
1x Humility

Side Deck

1x Runed Halo
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Humility
1x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Ray of Distortion
1x Rule of Law
4x Leyline of Sactity
2x Pithing Needle

Round 1
ANT

Game 1:[/B] He picked it up after a turn 2 Chant Lock.

Game 2: I played a turn 2 Canonist. He plays a land and passes. I start beating in and play a Painter. He KGrippes the Canonist. I countiue swinging in with painter and play a Rule of law and a top. He plays a land and passes. I draw leyline and cast it. I top and see Land, Chant and Sun Titan. I build up my lands while getting in with Painter dropping him to 8 before I get my 7th land and cast Sun Titan returning Canonist. With Titan on the stack he bounces the Rule of Law and then lets the Canonist resolve but bounces that too. On his turn he starts to go off. I crack top and Chant. He scoops.

1-0

Round 2
Junk

Game 1: Turn 3 Mill

Game 2: I turn 2 Chant Lock until turn 5 mill

2-0

Round 3
Affinity

Game 1: We get deck checked. He receives a game lose for marked cards in his side deck

Game 2: He starts off with Ornithoper and mox opeal. I play land and pass. He plays nothing and passes his turn. I play land and pass. He plays Blinkmoth and Cranial Plating. Land pass again. He plays his whole hand. I play Land and Wrath. he swings in with Blinkmoth. I play Painter. He drops Ornithoper and Memnite. I sword them both draw Grindstone and mill him.

3-0

Round 4
Junk

Games 1 & 2: He Rapes my hands with Hymms and Thoughtseize killing me with big Knights.

3-1

Round 5:
Storm

This was actually one of the people I went up there with.

Game 1: He turn 1 makes 10 Goblins

Game 2: I'm looking at a turn 3 win with Leyline protection. He makes 12 Goblins and rippes and Echoing Truth for the win.

3-2

Round 6:
Big Zoo

Game 1: I land Humility and Moat but have to slow Grind him to win.

Game 2: I have to Mull to 5 to get any lands but his hand is to fast and he just beats face.

Game 3: I get Humility and Moat down as he burns me down to 2. Now its a race for me to get my Painter before he gets a burn spell. I win the race and mill him out.

4-2

[B]Round 7
Enchantress

Game 1: I turn 4 Mill while Chanting him on his turn so he can not do anything.

Games 2 & 3: He Locks me out of the game before I can do anything.

4-3

If you have any questions you're welcome to ask.

[(nameless one)]

How did Sun Titan and Gideon perform for you? I noticed that on your report, they didn't even show up. Were they on your hand at a given time?

Against Junk/Rock, what did you side out. Usually, I'd side out Humility and Moat against them and rely on creature removal to deal with their creatures (StP, ORing, Halo, Wrath) and side in Leyline of Sanctity (Targeted discard is a backbreaker)

What exactly was your round 5 matchup? Was it TES or Belcher. While Belcher is faster and more explosive, I find that its easier to deal with Belcher with proper mulligan.

I know this is a really really really late suggestion but Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb would have made a difference on the side (if you can turn 1 Tutor for it) on that match up.

[Schulz]

How did Sun Titan and Gideon perform for you? I noticed that on your report, they didn't even show up. Were they on your hand at a given time?

I didn't see Gideon all day but Sun Titan was a big help round 1 and I feel that if I saw any blue decks that it would have been helpful.


Against Junk/Rock, what did you side out. Usually, I'd side out Humility and Moat against them and rely on creature removal to deal with their creatures (StP, ORing, Halo, Wrath) and side in Leyline of Sanctity (Targeted discard is a backbreaker)


I messed up on side boarding. I forgot to bring in the Leylines. but I like to keep in the Humility to slow him down and turn off creatures.


What exactly was your round 5 matchup? Was it TES or Belcher. While Belcher is faster and more explosive, I find that its easier to deal with Belcher with proper mulligan.

It was TES and he got the nuts both games.


I know this is a really really really late suggestion but Powder Keg or Ratchet Bomb would have made a difference on the side (if you can turn 1 Tutor for it) on that match up.

Yes it would have helped in the match but oh well.

[(nameless one)]

With the experience, any deck advice would you wanna give, especially with the post MM meta?

Also, any changes from your current list?

[AlterEgo]

I got my Top Misstepped at least a dozen times yesterday (or so it felt).
My list:
//Land
4 Scrying Sheets
19 Snow-Covered Plains

//Win
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Genju of the Fields
2 Grindstone
2 Painter's Servant

//Control
2 Day of Judgment
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Humility
2 Isochron Scepter
1 Lightmine Field
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Orim's Chant
1 Pithing Needle
2 Runed Halo
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Silence
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Wrath of God

//Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rule of Law
2 Silence
1 Story Circle
4 Tormod's Crypt


round 1 vs. WU SFM-Fish
SFM, Crusaders, SoFaI, Batterskull and at least 2 Missteps do me in twice.
0:2 -> 0/1/0

round 2 vs. UB Control
1st I kill Confidants, beat down a little with Genju and finally mill him out with Chant protection - MM got my top.
2nd Slow start while he gets online Confidant, Jace and CB+Top. No chance for me, he finishes me off just before time out.
1:1 -> 0/1/1

round 3 vs. Burn
1st I start and Chant lock him from turn 3 on. PoPs and a Shard Volley and first turn Sparky get me to 8. In response to me activating Grindstone, he casts double Fireblast... luckily I have a Soldier token and Swords
2nd I start with Leyline - he scoops.
2:0 -> 1/1/1

round 4 vs. LoamPox
1st Chant Lock -> Scoop. 1 Smallpox is all he did.
2nd he Vindicates a Scepter, Grips a stone and Sinkholes a Plains. I Swords a Kitchen Finks and put down another Stone+Painter without protection. (I was at 10 while he had two Finks and one land in his hand). He topdecks another land and scoops.
2:0 -> 2/1/1

round 5 vs. Quinn
We both don't want to play it out, so we ID
0:0 -> 2/1/2

round 6 vs. Goblins
1st Chant lock + 2 Swords win against 2 Ports + Ringleader + late Lackey.
2nd He has 1st Turn Vial and then Missteps my Top. Double Matron into Ringleader and Hooligan (on Scepter) plus a Warchief beat me to 1.
He offers a draw and I accept, because I'm tired.
1:1 -> 2/1/3

place 15 out of 35 - not overwhelmingly good, but it's okay


So, with MM in the mix, don't play Quinn, or play MM yourself. Most of our best spells cost 1 (Top, Sword, Chant, Grindstone, Needle and Tutor)

[(nameless one)]

After some contemplation, I don't think Quinn would do bad in a post-MM meta. The meta has slowed, which Quinn has always asked before.

Yes the deck needs some revisioning but don't be too easy on bringing the deck down.

[Sisyphos]

I'm the guy AlterEgo drew with in Round 5.

I'll do a quick report how my day went and maybe add some stuff later, when I have more time.

My list:

19 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Painter's Servant
2 Grindstone
2 Isochron Scepter

4 Orim's Chant
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abeyance
3 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Runed Halo
1 Pithing Needle
1 Moat
1 Humility
1 Sacred Mesa
3 Oblivion Ring


1 Runed Halo
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Humility
1 Path to Exile
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
2 Decree of Justice
1 Aura of Silence
1 Open the Vaults
2 Peacekeeper


Round 1: No Bant

I never saw a Natural Order but he had Green Sun Zenith and Dryad Arbor, so I assume the combo was somewhere in the deck.

First game he gets a slow start and I get Top and Swords countered but don't take too much damage. Fifth turn, he has two creatures out (Goyf and something else) and I try for Humility. It resolves surprisingly. Next turn he lays a creature so I take the three for one with a Wrath of God and close the game out the next turn with an Elspeth. Apparently he never drew a counter after using Misstep and Daze on my first two cards.
Second game is more of the same. We trade some one-for-one with removal for creatures or counters. At one point he grips my Moat. I have Open the Vaults in hand, so I tutor up Humility, bait a counter with it and resolve Open the Vaults on the following turn with protection, getting back Humility, Moat, Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo. Couple of turns later I find the combo and he scoops.

Round 2: Team America

The last time I played this guy, I was with Lands and he was with PainterStone. That was no fun.

He is very confused during the games. Apparently he hasn't played against Quinn before. First game he kills some of my lands with Sinkholes but never gets me below two Plains so I can still cast everything. I have three Scrying Sheets available so I find more lands quickly and he scoops after I find Mesa.
Second game he goes for second turn Hymn taking some meaningless stuff. I want to fish for a counter or a Grip and simply lay a Grindstone unprotected. It resolves and sticks. Two turns later he casts a second Hymn and my hand is Tutor, Swords, Abeyance. I think whatever, no risk no fun and respond to the Hymn with Tutor for Painter. I'm stuck on three mana so my next turn is simply casting Painter. He has no counter once again. On his turn though he manages to find a Pithing Needle after Ponder and Brainstorm which is about as unlikely as him having no counters at all, so I can't really complain but settle in for a long game of find the Ring. He can't build up any pressure because Quinn plays about two times as much removal as Team America plays creatures so even with counters it's not really close. While I find no Ring, I eventually find an Elspeth to close out the game.

Round 3: Uwg Intuition Thresh – not too sure about this one

Playing stuff like Goyf, Knight, Predator, Clique as his creature base along with a lot of counters, Jace and an Intuition toolbox including Cephalid Colseum.

First game I don't draw much of anything and after killing his first creatures I get pounded by a Knight. Highlight of the game was him using Coliseum and dumping two Swords to Plowshares because he as well didn't know what I was playing. When I stick a Painter the next turn his only comment was: „Now I feel dumb.“ Unfortunately the Painter was just as an emergency blocker to buy me a turn, having only lands in my hand, but it was fun nonetheless.
Second game is back and forth as usual against this kinds of deck. Removal for counters or creatures. Eventually I go for the combo with Abeyance protection. After the Abeyance resolves, he shows me his two Mental Missteps.
Third game goes to time. I have the board locked up with Moat and Humility and Runed Halo but I'm missing the second combo piece and don't have any protection either while he has Force, pitch card and Counterspell in hand.

Round 4: Wbr Stuff

Equipment, Mother of Runes, Bob, Mirran Crusader, Burn, Lavamancer, Vindicate, Wasteland and stuff. This time I'm confused by my opponents deck. I know I didn't play a lot in the last months, but I had no clue what to expect before I saw it.

First game I mulligan to six but Chant lock him third turn. He gets me to ten with a Lavamancer he had cast before though because I'm stuck on mana and can't remove the Lavamancer while keeping Chant up. Eventually I draw mana and he scoops.
Second game I get flooded. Top turns up three lands over and over again, even after shuffle effects. I run out of removal and die.
Third game he has two Hide/Seek (yup, didn't see that one coming) and one Vindicate to get rid of Moat and Humility, allowing his creatures to kill me.

Round 5: The mirror

Draw.

Round 6: Uw Caw-Blade I think

First game I only see Mishras and Jace alongside a truckload of counters, so I put him an UW Control. He has too many counters so his third Mishra kills me. I board accordingly.
Second game I combo him out. Still seeing only Jace, Mishra and now Squadron Hawk and therefor still thinking his deck is very controllish.
Third game I put some removal back in but still keep a very anti-control-like configuration. I get run over by Mirran Crusader and Batterskull.... I don't know if that was his board plan or if he simply didn't draw them in the first two games, but my boarding left me open to this.



Overall I was pretty happy with the deck, despite the lackluster performance. The boards should be changed probably, but I didn't have enough time before the tournament to think about that and I hadn't played a lot so I didn't know what to expect either.

Mental Misstep can be hard, but it is far from the death of the deck. You play a lot of 1-cc cards, but the deck can function fine without them. Swords can be harsh if it's a last ditch effort but otherwise you should have enough other removal to get there. Chant is the same as always, they need one more counter than you have Chant effects. Misstep didn't change much there. Getting Top countered is the worst I guess because it weakens your already situational draw engine and leaves you living of the top of your deck but you are redundant enough to survive that at least 50 % of the time. I mean I had Top countered, Needled and Griped before the printing of Misstep and you could work around it too.
Playing Misstep yourself it not the right answer I think. You do not have the possibility to pitch it to Force or shuffle it back with Brainstorm, so unless you have it at the right time, it's dead.
Misstep is a great argument for playing Abeyance over Silence though. Before I could see the point of playing Silence but now I think the different mana cost more then makes up for the lesser value in being a complete Time Walk.

A bigger problem for me at least has been Jace. If more and more decks play four Jaces, you will need more and more answers to that card, thus weakening your other match ups. Oblivion Ring, Needle and Halo are ok, but not great. They don't kill the damn thing and can be handled easily by a lot of cards the Jace decks play. (Grip, EE, bounce) I have not found a solution I like more though. Hex Parasite looks cute, but sucks with Humility and you need those against Bant and similar decks with creatures and Jace because you lose against Pridemage and Predator otherwise.

The deck needs some kind of recursion in my opinion. As Schulz said, Sun Titan can help and Open the Vaults gave me two wins. I don't know which is better or if there is something else that trumps both. I think more testing is needed here. Your opponent will have to invest a lot in killing your lock or combo pieces the first time. Getting a second use out of them is often too much for opponents decks. Those cards are also one more absolute must counter for blue decks which is very nice.

[scrubbysniff]

So I got back in to playing after a 10 year hiatus, and I don't feel like trying to catch up to standard, so legacy it is. Parfait was my favorite old deck, but I found land tax was banned...hmm. I find Quinn and it seemed the natural choice. Since I sold my italian moat for about a third of its value now 10 years ago, I achieve locks through scepter/chant, or humility/prayer(either of which can be good on its own, prayer makes me laugh at goblin tokens).

You'll notice there is no painter/stone kill; I play it more like parfait, take control and win with pegasi(probably too slow, but oh well). The millstones are obviously no grindstone, but can win games, plus it can't be MM'd. Neither can abeyance, which is why I included it over Silence. Plus I don't feel like shelling out for grindstones, and painters are vulnerable artifact creatures.

Isochron is my favorite card ever, there are so many cards in this deck that can be savage on it. I probably should run four. Also a shuffle effect besides tutor to go with digger would be nice. My sideboard is basically a pile.

17 snow covered Plains*
4 Scrying Sheets*

Artifacts:
3 sensei's divining top*
3 Isochron scepter*
1 Soldevi Digger
1 ivory tower

Instants/Sorceries
4 stp
4 enlightened tutor*
3 Abeyance*
3 Orim's Chant*
3 Argivian find*
1 wrath of god

Enchantments:

3 Aura of Silence*
3 oblivion ring*
2 humilty*
2 orims prayer*
1 Story Circle*

Win Conditions:
2 millstone
1 sacred mesa*

Sideboard:
4 runed halo*
3 disenchant
3 tormod's crypt*
2 story circle*
1 aura of silence*
1 wrath of god
1 leyline of sanctity*

Tell me why this is bad.

[kinda]

win conditions:
2 millstone
1 sacred mesa*

tell me why this is bad.

hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

Edit: This might just be funny to me due to the many times I've joked about milling someone out with grindstone after they've disposed of my painter's.

[scrubbysniff]

yeah, they're obsolete. i am not sure ill ever even have to do it, most rational people would scoop if i have a lock they can't get out of and a millstone on the board, though i guess we could take the 20 rounds or whatever :P

[(nameless one)]

yeah, they're obsolete. i am not sure ill ever even have to do it, most rational people would scoop if i have a lock they can't get out of and a millstone on the board, though i guess we could take the 20 rounds or whatever :P

To save yourself from draw rounds, you might as well jump in the Grindstone/Painter's Servant bandwagon. Some people still use Sacred Mesa as their alternative win condition since it's Tutorable but I personally prefer Elspeth, Knight-Errant since once she lands, your opponent must answer it or she will win you the game.

[scrubbysniff]

yeah, I know on some level I'm going to have to have a stronger win condition if I want to compete at all. I like Elspeth, but I like being able to tutor if I don't see it. i also just really like winning with pegasus tokens. Hell, if I use millstone I may as well stick a serra angel in there, if we're going with 1994 tech hehe.

[(nameless one)]

yeah, I know on some level I'm going to have to have a stronger win condition if I want to compete at all. I like Elspeth, but I like being able to tutor if I don't see it. i also just really like winning with pegasus tokens. Hell, if I use millstone I may as well stick a serra angel in there, if we're going with 1994 tech hehe.


Humility + Serra's Angel is a non-bo LOL.

Though I'm not sure if you're aware but due to M10 rules changes, Painter's Servant 'works' under an active Humility.

[scrubbysniff]

Yeah, have to lay the servant first though correct?And yeah I'm not gonna pack serra heat lol.

[(nameless one)]

Yeah, have to lay the servant first though correct?And yeah I'm not gonna pack serra heat lol.

It doesn't have to it has something to do with rules layering.

Basically before Humility changes Painter's Servant's ability into nothing, the color change from Servant has already occurred.

[scrubbysniff]

Oh cool, yeah I read up on it, basically you choose color while its still a spell on the stack, and humility doesn't affect it. I'd like to have a printout from a judge I can show people at tourneys hehe. So I made a few adjustments:

Lands:

18 snow covered Plains
4 Scrying Sheets

Artifacts:
3 sensei's divining top
3 Isochron scepter
2 grindstone
2 painter's servant
1 Soldevi Digger


Instants/Sorceries
4 stp
4 enlightened tutor
3 Abeyance
3 Orim's Chant
3 Argivian find
1 wrath of god

Enchantments:

2 Aura of Silence
2 oblivion ring
2 humilty
2 orim's prayer
1 Story Circle
1 sacred mesa

Sideboard:
3 tormod's crypt
2 disenchant
2 runed halo
2 story circle
2 aura of silence
2 wrath of god
1 leyline of sanctity
1 pithing needle

[(nameless one)]

I don't like Leyline of Sanctity as a singleton in your side. I believe it's either a 4-of or don't bother running it. I know the deck runs E. Tutor but in the matchups you want it in, you want to have it in the field ASAP.

On a different not, has anyone seen this:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?21382-SCD-Timely-Reinforcements