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Finn
07-03-2007, 04:43 PM
It seems we all tend to stick with what we like. Zilla likes his stompy critters, Jack is still on a crusade in search of control. And I always seem to come back to the same aggro-control spot. After several abortive attempts with Tarmogoyf, I figured it belonged best in Threshold. I still think so, but I hate blue. So I began by trying to build Threshold without blue. Street Wraith is not up to the hype. Edge of Autumn wasn't bad, but I almost never cast it (except to play Street Wraith), and the deck has plenty of Sorceries and Lands already. Tombstalker is too counterproductive, and not better than the Goyf. So I went more traditional and I don't know quite what to call it. The meta is moving rapidly into the combo zone, and this deck has that in mind. If black (and not blue) is your defense, you get the benefit of dandy creatures and removal. Anyway, here is the result after much testing and tweaking.


Creature (15)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade

Sorcery (11)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Duress
3 Vindicate

Instant (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cremate

Artifact (4)
4 Engineered Explosives

Enchantment (4)
4 Sicken

Land (19)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland

side (15)
3 Contagion
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Pithing Needle
3 Mutilate

It turns out that the deck really isn't that much like Threshold after all. The more I tried to emulate it, the more I found myself wishing I were playing Daze and the like. So I stopped trying, and found the deck improving to the point that it actually has advantages over Threshold.

Yes, it's in there:
1. Sicken came as a pretty big surprise to me, but I have really liked it. Looking at it now, I am not quite sure what the problem ever was. It has obvious turn 1 purposes, and since combo is among the easier matchups, I tend to have plenty of opportunity to cycle it when I need to.
2. Cremate has been pretty good to me. I can pick and choose what to remove when I just need to cycle it, and I get to have fun with Life from the Loam and Tendrils.

Notably absent:
1. Street Wraith, Tombstalker, Edge of Autumn see above
2. Cabal Therapy - Just couldn't fit it. The combo matchup is pretty good, so I figured this could slide. And I discovered that it's not quite as good against today's combo anyway.

Does it get to Threshold reliably?
Not nearly as well as Threshold. Sometimes it is turn 4 or 5. Sometimes, not for a while longer. This can be an issue where the Mongoose is concerned, and is a sticking point. But it is not a major one. I suspect that it is because this deck does not play counters. There is a lot of creature removal in the main. Consequently the mongoose is still a very strong turn one play even if it only deals one point for a few turns.

Matchups:
I'm afraid this is 100% MWS crapola, so in this case, it can only show trends. So I am not going to even bother digging up the numbers.

Stax: very, very good - all the tools are present to make Stax hate you.

Belcher: very good - they can belch you before your first turn - nothing you can do about that. But if that fails to happen, you have a lot of advantages.

TES: (only two games) Like Belcher, but seems even better for you since they have Cremate in the main to worry about for IGG.

Landstill: pretty good - the sb is not especially well suited for this though.

Threshold: dead even - played a lot, I mean a lot of these. It was commonly
Goyf Standoffs until someone got the upper hand.

Goblins: Not very good. You are disruptible, and a half step slower. Stuff like Duress and Vindicate just don't cut it here. The board helps a lot though, and for opponents who stuck around for games 2 and 3, I fared much, much better.

I seem to be facing the same decks all the time these days. And this is all if them that are worth noting.

Notes:
The land supply is on the shaky side. Perhaps one more Swamp could be in order. Mutilate used to be Pernicious Deed, which is so often a beating, but not quite as good in the hardest matchups, and there are a few artifacts of my own that I would like to keep around. It hurt to remove it, but Mutilate can often spare Goyf or the Shade.

noobslayer
07-03-2007, 05:02 PM
Perhaps Jitte could be considered in the board over Mutilate. I comes in in the same matches I would presume, and it sticks around to do more. It just lacks the sudden punch that mutilate has. You would probably have to re work your creatures a little bit to support it however.

Hanni
07-03-2007, 05:10 PM
This looks slightly similar to my B/g/w Deadguy list I've been playing with for the last week or so:

Lands (23)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
5 Swamp
4 Wasteland

Creatures (11)
3 Nantuko Shade
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (26)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)
2 Unmask
3 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
2 Pernicious Deed

This list is somewhat similar to yours. The manabase is basically the same, except I run Wasteland. The creature base is the same, except I don't run Mongoose. The spells is where the difference lies... we both utilize many of the same spells (Duress/Hymn/Vindicate), except I focus on LD like traditional Deadguy does.

I figured I'd post my list since they are both essentially non-blue aggro/control decklists with Tarmogoyf. My list is a bit different in direction for the deck. My list is basically Deadguy/g.

chmoddity
07-04-2007, 07:51 AM
Hanni, what's with all of the 2-ofs with no ability to search for them? You seem unsure of the right card. Maybe 4 Deeds instead...

Hanni
07-04-2007, 12:18 PM
Smallpox is a 2-of because it compliments the LD plan and acts as creature removal, but I don't really want any more than 2. More than 2 attacks my own resources too much. If you don't like Smallpox, you can drop them for StP's/Deeds.

Deed is a 2-of because it's a reset button. The deck doesn't always want to use a reset button since it does have 11 guys. It's a nice situation fixer, a 2-of seems fine, and there are 2 more in the sideboard against decks where it's needed.

I only run 2 StP because I had 2 spaces left and filled them with these.

The old Deadguy lists used to run some 2-of's too. It's not like my whole deck is a bunch 2-of's. The deck has some draw with Confidant... otherwise, the 2-of's are there simply to compliment the core of the deck. It's also not such a bad thing against opposing Meddling Mages, however much of a factor that is.

chmoddity
07-05-2007, 09:22 AM
This is another of those decks that really does not quite do well with smallpox. I mean, yeah it does what it does. But I don't like having to discard. Losing a land would be eaiser to manage without the shade. We could bump up smallpox and simply cut the shades. Or we could do this:

-2 smallpox
+2 STP

This is what I have done. Also, I really dig on Sicken. I wonder if there isn't a way to run them and still keep things like Dark Ritual and Wasteland (just noting the differences between the build here). And on that note, Mutilate seems excellent with Tarmogoyf and Nantuko Shade over Pernicious Deed when you have stuff like engineered Plague and Vindicate.

scrumdogg
07-05-2007, 10:49 AM
Interesting approach, but why Cremate? Is the cantripping worth the limited removal? Did you try Extirpate at all? Sicken is also cool, if again limited. I realize that an enchantment in your graveyard makes Goyf bigger, but wouldn't it make more sense to run a better enchantment? Especially given that you seem to have a difficult Goblins match-up, why not run E. Plagues MD? You gain some advantage regardless of where it is & the card is not dead against a number of other decks.

Sanguine Voyeur
07-05-2007, 11:04 AM
Interesting approach, but why Cremate? Is the cantripping worth the limited removal? Did you try Extirpate at all? Sicken is also cool, if again limited. I realize that an enchantment in your graveyard makes Goyf bigger, but wouldn't it make more sense to run a better enchantment? Especially given that you seem to have a difficult Goblins match-up, why not run E. Plagues MD? You gain some advantage regardless of where it is & the card is not dead against a number of other decks.
Cremate is simply a cantrip, like in threshold, similar to Portent in its utility.

Sicken is an answer to Lackey that cycles and therefor is never dead.

Finn
07-05-2007, 09:50 PM
Scrum, I was originally working with Deed. But Sicken was actually working out better for getting Threshold whether I cast it or cycled it. That was a big reason why I switched from Deed to Mutilate. I already had a reliable enchantment.

Cremate is good, man. I tried artifact graveyard hate - Crypt, Furnace, but Cremate fits the deck's plan really well.

Plague is a rather interesting idea. It could potentially go in the Contagion spot. Too bad I get so few opportunities to try that sb spot out. I found one guy and played him until he quit. Nobody seems to be playing Goblins online anymore.

chmoddity
07-06-2007, 11:30 AM
I tried both versions.

They were both easy to learn, and effective. Hanni's worked out better against control and combo control (especially Threshold), while Finn's handled combo and aggro a bit better.

@Hanni: There's a lot of good going on in here. I have to say, however, that I think you are going the wrong way. Land destruction is at an all time low in usefulness right now. Of the combo decks, only Solidarity (does anyone play this anymore?) has a lot of fear of it. Aggro, naturally can cope. So your primary strategy is not in the best of metagames. And you have to devote 4 extra slots for Wasteland. Don't get me wrong, my Threshold opponent was dying for Pithing needles every game. But 43land, Gobs, and Terrageddon all ignored the entire LD suite (Extirpate was really good when I drew it early, and useless once the damage had been done). Those could be better used as something more relavent.

@Finn: Your build had fewer dissynergies, and more direct answers for applicable threats, as well as a better end game. Cremate was handy a times, but I usually just cycled it. Threshold was a little slow coming for Mongoose, and should be worked on. The fact is that everything is cheap and scales or is cheap and cycles. That's a big strength. But it never got the random wins Hanni's did. So a deck like 3cLandstill, which I found hard for both decks in general, was retarded easy for Hanni's when I got the Dark Ritual, LD, LD jump followed by a Shade or something. The Forest should be a Swamp or something. It is unsearchable and wrong.

The nod goes to Finn's build here. It seems more refined, and has a solid gameplan against every opponent I faced, with answers in the main. Hanni's build was swingy, getting impressive wins versus Stax and Thresh, but not really standing a chance against Gobs or Terrageddon despite its sb hate. Goblins was a big factor in my opinion. Hanni's was largely dependant on if I topdecked Deed or Plague - but the two work poorly together (-4 Duress, -2 Smallpox, +2 Pernicious Deed, +4 Engineered Plague). Even then, it was not a guarantee since Deed only resets the board. Finn's worked spaklingly well for me against Goblins, though (-4 Duress, -3 Cremate, -1 Dark Confidant, +3 Contagion, +3 Mutilate, +2 Pithing Needle). The answers were better suited for the matchup, and the Goyf survives Mutilate. Confidants do not play well with some of the sb cards, but I never hit any of them. Both decks need a more developed sb, in fact, as the cards kept getting in each other's way.

Honoluluicecaps
07-16-2007, 10:48 AM
I really like the idea of this deck, although I like the red splash instead of the white one. The white one gives you access to swords and vindicate, whereas I like the added finisher damage of the bolts and lightnings.

Here's what I came up with:

Creatures (15):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Wall of Blossoms
1x Gigapede

Disruption (22):
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Duress
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Engineered Plague
2x Night’s Whisper

Lands (23):
4x Badlands
4x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Polluted Delta
1x Forest
4x Swamp
1x Mountain

I like the Dryad in this deck a lot as long as you focus on non-green spells, of which there are 23 possible, but usually 3 is enough to get a sufficient beater. The goyf plus the Dryad plus the burn is usually pretty sufficient during my testing, and the LD provided by Vindicate is usually not enough alone in my testing to warrant the white splash. Although I think it's a topic that should be discussed further. SB is of course meta-dependant, but would likely include the typical Pithing Needle, perhaps Pyrostatic Pillar for combo problems, and sphere for resistance...

Thoughts?


Sorry to double post, but I've been testing my BGR version of this deck and I think it's going pretty well... This is the current list I'm using:

Creatures (15):
4x Dark Confidant
4x Quirion Dryad
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Burning-Tree Shaman

Disruption (22):
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning
4x Duress
3x Engineered Explosives
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Incinerate

Lands (23):
4x Badlands
4x Bayou
1x Taiga
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Forest
4x Swamp
1x Mountain

SB:
2x Putrefy
3x Pithing Needle
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Extirpate
2x Engineered Plague

I love Fetchland, Duress first turn, goyf on the second turn, hymn and chain lightning on the third turn... The mana curve on the deck is so small that it's not that unusual... the SB is mostly dedicated to stopping combo.

Not to mention, burn plus quirion dryad plus goyf is just usually too much damage too quick. I tried Shade and Mongoose... and I hate them in this deck. Shade never seems to pull it's weight the way it does in Pikula and Sui... and I never had thresh quick enough. And Burning-Tree fits in so well too, owning opponent's jittes and wastes...

What do you guys think?

Double-posts merged. Use the Edit button. - Zilla