[Report] UGr Threshold: First at Origins iPod

[The Atog Lord]

Hi

Origins was a good time, and while I don't have notes to make a detailed report, I'll just type up a few words here. I played UGr Threshold. Not knowing much about the post-Flash Legacy metagame, I called Dan (Bardo) while packing for Origins asking for advice. Dan knows a lot about this format, and is quite an authority on Threshold. He gave me two options: Threshold with White and Threshold with Red. The Red option sounded better to me, so I decided to go with it.

The Legacy tournament at Origins had around 25 people, and the prize was a 4 gig ipod Nano. After talking with Dan, and some thinking, I played the following list:

4 Dryad
4 Goyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
// Gofy was fantastic all day. Often a 4/5 for 2, they applied a huge amount of pressure against everything. Mongoose was great against Goblins, and helped apply pressure in other matches, too. Costing 1 is much better than costing 2.


4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
1 Street Wraith
// If I didn't have Goyf in the deck, I wouldn't have run the street wraith or the Sleights. However, having diversity among card types really helps make him even better. Both Sleight and Wraith "pumped" the Goyf at different times during the event. I think 1 or 2 wraiths is correct with him, because in certain matchups creatures tend not to hit the yard.

4 Lightning Bolts
3 Fire

3 Daze
2 Needle
4 Force
4 Stifle

17 land, including 1 basic Forest and basic Island
// Having both of the basic lands were really strong. In fact, against Goblins, a basic Mountain would have made life easier.

Sideboard:
2 Threads (Never brought in)
4 Leyline of the Void (Never drew them)
2 Crypt
1 Red Blast
2 Krosan Grip (This card was great)
4 Pyroclasm (The best card in the sideboard)

Here is a quick run-through of my matches.

Round 1: Deadguy + Life from the Loam
Things worked according to plan: I countered his threats and my creatures were quick enough to end things before his resource denial plan worked. Burn kept his creatures off the table.

Round 2: Mono White Prison
Daze was a great card in this match, as it would be all day. Krosan Grip helped out of the board as well. He never got a chalice for 2, but knowing I had a solution made me feel better.

Round 3: Goblins
This was a tough match, but having Red got me the win. Game One, Goyf was a huge monster who raced Goblins. Having Fire/Ice let me burn through his small blockers, helping the giant Green Monster get through. Pithing Needle was also solid in this match, as was Stifle. Post board, Pyroclasm got me the third game after his mana denial beat me in the second. Pyroclasm was really good, as was all of the burn. I kept wishing for a Basic Mountain in this match.

Round 4: Iggy Pop
I lost this match, but it was close. I think this is the one time that white would have been stronger than red, since Meddling Mage and Chant would both have been spectacular. Iggy Pop is a strong deck, and I never saw my Leylines for it. I think that I'd re-think and re-tune the sideboard for this match in the future.

Round 5: ID into Top Eight

Top Eight: Boros Deck Wins
This is a neat deck, and it made me wish I had Misdirection in my sideboard. However, I was able to race him with large men. Goyf was great in this match.

Top Four: Uw Draw/Go
My opponent had counters, Facts, Morphlings, Shackles, Swords, and Explosives. This was a very close match, going to 3 games. In the end, I was able to win by shutting down his card advantage and letting the fact that I play fewer lands give me the win. I countered all of his Facts, and shut down Shackles. His other cards trade one-for-one, and having fewer lands in my deck, I was able to get an edge in card advantage. Krosan Grip was very strong in this match, being uncounterable. Pithing Needle also earned its place. Mongoose, immune to Shackles and Swords, was also surprisingly strong.

Finals: Faerie Stompy
This went to two games. The creatures in my deck are larger and cheaper than those in his, and moreover he has to play with lands that disappear and that hurt him. My counter magic is as robust as his, but I have removal and he doesn't. Things did get a bit close when his Looter ilKor got a Sword of Fire and Ice, but Quirion Dryad was able to race with some help from Lightning Bolts.

So, I was happy with the deck. The main question I've seen tends to be whether red or white is better. In my games, red was much better than white. Against Iggy Pop, white would have been nice. Otherwise, red was much better. So often, I found myself racing an opponent. Threshold isn't so robust that it can hope to shut down an opponent reliably. Rather, it has cheap men and can race. Lightning Bolt tends to help you race better than Swords. Many games I would win a turn early by pointing a Bolt at my opponent. Even when bolting a creature, Swords would have given the opponent life and Bolt does not. In particular, the ability to race with Burn let me beat Boros and FStompy. Both of those matches came down to a few life points, and giving the opponent another turn by giving him a few life would have killed me. And against Goblins, Pyroclasm literally won me the match. I wouldn't have had double-offcolor mana for Tividar's Crusade.

[Nightmare]

Hey everyone! It's Rich Shay! What's up, Rich Shay? Goddamn you're a machine this summer, dude. Congrats on the victory and the third strangest prize at a Magic Tournament ever. I (as a longtime advocate of white thresh) am also becoming more and more certain that red is the go-to color these days. Question: Did you find yourself doing the same thing with this deck as you do with GAT in Vintage (IE: playing control and winning sometime), or the more traditional playstyle of GAT (play a dude and protect him)?

[Machinus]

Thanks for the report. I've been testing a list very close to this one.

How significant is the life loss from Street Wraith?

[The Atog Lord]

Nightmare, excellent question. I played much more aggressively with this build than I do in Type One. In GAT, in Type One, you can go from nothing to winning in a single explosive turn. However, these explosive turns are backed by either Yawgmoth's Will or Fastbond. Neither option is available in Legacy, and so this style of play does not do as well. Rather, with 12 creatures and 7 burn spells, this build is much better at being an aggressive deck. Goyf in particular is strong at ending games quickly, and Lightning Bolt can be send to the opponent to finish things off. Tapping blockers with Ice is a good plan as well. So, yes, I do play these two decks differently. Excellent observation.

Machinus, I think that the correct number of Wraiths is 0 or 1. You never want to draw two because the life loss would be too much against Goblins or Boros. However, a single copy that pumps your Goyf for 2 life while cycling is a fair tradeoff. Overall, I was happy with the one copy, and would run a single copy of Wraith again tomorrow if I played in something. However, he certainly gets put into the Sideboard against aggressive decks, and if there are a lot of Lightning Bolts in the metagame, I would avoid him altogether.

[Caboose]

I gave my deck (UGr Gro) to a friend and he Top 8'd with almost no knowledge of the format whatsoever. Says a lot about the Columbus meta :frown:

He lost to Iggy Pop in the Top 8 in game 3 because he accidently countered the wrong card. Again, not knowing the format =/= tech. Any half-brain could have ran tables at this event. Not to take away from Shay, who is arguably one of the best Vintage players in the world, but this event seemed like joke-sauce.

[Zilla]

I'm in firm agreement that UGR is stronger in the current meta than UGW, most importantly because of a stronger game against Goblins, more lategame reach thanks to Burn, and a faster answer to EtW in the form of Pyroclasm. I have a couple questions about your deck, Shay:

1. I noticed you didn't mention Dryad much at all in your report. I imagine you must have a commonlaw marriage with it by now, given your undying love for GAT. Do you feel it's as strong here, or is it redundant given the inherent power of 'goyf? Are you thinking about breaking it off with Dryad and making a new start with 'goyf? I bet it's wild in the sack.

2. I used to run F/I in Thresh, but I traded it in for Magma Jet and I've been pretty pleased with it. I very rarely used the Ice side, and the burn + scrying always feels strong to me. The inability to take out 2 1/1's is unfortunate, but it rarely seems to matter, in my experience, since Goblins is already a fairly positive matchup, in my testing. What do you think?

3. I currently run 4 FoW/3 Daze/2 Cspell/2 Stifle/2 Needle as my disruption base, but I've been strongly considering dropping the Cspells for more Stifles. After this weekend's experience, do you feel 4 is the right number? It's imminently more castable than Cspell, but I can't help but wonder if 4 might be overkill. Thoughts?

4. I think UGR Thresh is possibly the best deck in the format right now. The very biggest drawback I can see is its poor matchup with the UGW "mirror". I've been testing all sorts of SB options for this (including the awesome Submerge tech I stole from your years-old GAT build), as well as jank like Gilded Drake, Pongify, Vedalken Shackles, Control Magic, and Mind Harness. I'm not really sure what's best at this point. Have you tested the mirror at all? If so, do you have any insight to share on this?

Thanks for the report, and congrats on your win.

[The Atog Lord]

1. Dryad was a good card, but overshadowed by the Goyf. Dryad would often find herself large, and on some occasions larger than the Goyf. Goyf, however, is plug-and-play; no complicated setup. Dryad was usually larger than a Werebear would have been, especially since I cut mental notes. However, Goyf was just better. The main advantage of Dryad is that she is good with combat tricks. Goyf is usually static in size, and a few times I walked opponents into bad situations by firing off a couple of instants.

2. I loved Fire/Ice. It pitched to Force of Will. On two or three occasions I killed two creatures with it. I used Ice a lot. Goyf is a monster, and Icing a blocker often let me swing through without fear for his safety. So, for all those reasons, I can't imagine Jet being as good.

3. Counterspell is a wonderful card, and running 2/2 for Stifle is probably worth testing. However, having UU open isn't always easy, and I'd argue that in the Goblin matchup Stifle is just better anyways, since they have several ways to duck counters. And more than once I ended a game by catching someone's fetchland with a Stifle. So, Stifle is good, though 2/2 is worth testing.

4. I didn't play the mirror match at all, nor have I tested it. I think I'd need to test the matchup for a while to come to any conclusions about the mirror match.

[aTn]

Although I love Sleigh of Hand in this build and am playing it over Mental Note, I sometimes miss the boost Note gives when you need Threshold fast (for example when you are stuck with 1/1 Mongeese on the board). Did this ever occur during the tournament ?

[Zilla]

1. Dryad was a good card, but overshadowed by the Goyf. Dryad would often find herself large, and on some occasions larger than the Goyf. Goyf, however, is plug-and-play; no complicated setup. Dryad was usually larger than a Werebear would have been, especially since I cut mental notes. However, Goyf was just better. The main advantage of Dryad is that she is good with combat tricks. Goyf is usually static in size, and a few times I walked opponents into bad situations by firing off a couple of instants.
I figured this would be the rough assessment. I agree it's probably better than Werebear, particularly because it can get bigger and lowers your reliance on thresh. That said, I currently run neither. I've actually been kicking it old school and running 2 Fledgling Dragons in addition to the 4 'goose/'goyf configuration. This may seem a bit n00bish, but I've found it absolutely stellar in breaking stalemates on the ground. It'll also get rid of opposing 'goyfs. It has the side benefit of being a lot harder to answer with sweeper effects like Deed, EE and Powder Keg, all of which are highly effective against both Werebear and Dryad. Incidentally, its inclusion may be why I don't miss Ice that much; I don't really need it to deal with blockers.


2. I loved Fire/Ice. It pitched to Force of Will. On two or three occasions I killed two creatures with it. I used Ice a lot. Goyf is a monster, and Icing a blocker often let me swing through without fear for his safety. So, for all those reasons, I can't imagine Jet being as good.Like I said, I may find it less useful with Dragon's inclusion. I used to run 4 Bolt/4 Jet/2 Fire/Ice, but I dropped the F/I's for Needles awhile ago and never missed them much. Perhaps I'll try a 2/2 configuration between Jet and F/I instead.


3. Counterspell is a wonderful card, and running 2/2 for Stifle is probably worth testing. However, having UU open isn't always easy, and I'd argue that in the Goblin matchup Stifle is just better anyways, since they have several ways to duck counters. And more than once I ended a game by catching someone's fetchland with a Stifle. So, Stifle is good, though 2/2 is worth testing.You'll get no argument from me that Stifle is far superior to Cspell in the Goblins matchup. It's also fantastic in the combo matchup, almost certainly better than Counterspell because it can be played first turn. I've been running 2 Cspells in my Thresh build for over a year, and they have increasingly felt to me like the weakest card in the deck. I'd be very tempted to drop them for more Stifles; I'm just not sure a full 4 is the right call.

[kabal]

I figured this would be the rough assessment. I agree it's probably better than Werebear, particularly because it can get bigger and lowers your reliance on thresh. That said, I currently run neither. I've actually been kicking it old school and running 2 Fledgling Dragons in addition to the 4 'goose/'goyf configuration.

What about Wee Dragonauts (http://magiccards.info/gp/en/137.html)? Pitchable to Fow, evasion and definitely goes nicely with the 25+ instant/sorcery spells.

[Citrus-God]

Ancient Grudge would've been awesome in that metagame. I'm suprised you didnt include it. It seemed very strong, since you crashed into Faerie Stompy, White Prison, and Vial Goblins.

[The Atog Lord]

GodzillA:

Dragon is a very interesting idea, but I do have concerns about his mana cost. Yes, he's a monster. And yes, he ignores most blockers. But getting to four mana wasn't happening constantly. Granted, perhaps I could have played in a way that would have found the fourth land more consistently. However, after hitting two or three land, I found myself trying to bury land with Sleight and Brainstorm. Having a Dragon in hand will result in something like virtual card disadvantage because you'll be trying to get to four mana, rather than using your resources to find other cards.

The large Dragon might be worthwhile, but I just wanted to point out that he comes at the cost of playing differently and trying to find lands more actively.

Kabal, being blue is very strong. However, oftentimes the Nauts will be a flying Brassman; unlike Dryad they don't keep their bonus.

AA,

You're right that Grudge would have been very strong. I considered them and went with Grip because I wanted to be able to hit Chalices at two. In the event, such a chalice never came up. Therefore, Grudge would have been quite strong. I think there is a very good case for Grudge.

Finally, on Counterspell. I had it in the GAT (UGb) list I split the Legacy with a couple of years ago, and it was bad then. I doubt things have changed enough to make it good. Combo is so fast it doesn't matter and Goblins runs through it. Stifle hit Vialed Matron, SGC, and Ringleader; Counterspell, at more mana, can't do that.

[Citrus-God]

[QUOTE] Dragon is a very interesting idea, but I do have concerns about his mana cost. Yes, he's a monster. And yes, he ignores most blockers. But getting to four mana wasn't happening constantly. Granted, perhaps I could have played in a way that would have found the fourth land more consistently. However, after hitting two or three land, I found myself trying to bury land with Sleight and Brainstorm. Having a Dragon in hand will result in something like virtual card disadvantage because you'll be trying to get to four mana, rather than using your resources to find other cards.


It's not hard getting 4 mana, considering the fact you run 10 1cc cantrips. I personally think you should give them a try, since they're flying monsters. Did I mention they're better than Enforcers? Enforcers take 2-3 turns to kill the opponent. Dragon takes at least 1-2 turns to kill the opponent.


The large Dragon might be worthwhile, but I just wanted to point out that he comes at the cost of playing differently and trying to find lands more actively.

Usually, I tend to play the Dragon by course. I wouldn't try and be very reliant on the Dragon, unless you're up against a deck like RGSA, or the mirror.


AA,

You're right that Grudge would have been very strong. I considered them and went with Grip because I wanted to be able to hit Chalices at two. In the event, such a chalice never came up. Therefore, Grudge would have been quite strong. I think there is a very good case for Grudge.

If you continue to play the deck, I think they warrant testing. I like them a lot, personally, and is probably one of the best reasons why I would run Red. 1st is Pyroclasm, 2nd is Dragon, and the 3rd would be Ancient Grudge.
I've been very happy with them, and I'm sure you would as well.


[Stuff about Counterspell]

The mirror match is everywhere, and Counterspell answers Grunt. I would never care about Grunt if I still played with Werebear, but Grunts get rid of certain cards in the graveyard that make the Goyf, the Goyf. I think Counterspell warrants it's place here, since it can actually answer Goyf.

[Happy Gilmore]

Reasons to play UGR:

#1 Ancient Grudge
#2 Pyroclasm
#3 Instant speed reach in the form or burn.

Ancient Grudge is just so amazing.

[Citrus-God]

Reasons to play UGR:

#1 Ancient Grudge
#2 Pyroclasm
#3 Instant speed reach in the form or burn.

Ancient Grudge is just so amazing.

Listen to this guy. Ancient Grudge is insane. I'm sure he has 3 of them right now in his board, and 2 MDed Pyroclasms.

[Zilla]

Dragon is a very interesting idea, but I do have concerns about his mana cost. Yes, he's a monster. And yes, he ignores most blockers. But getting to four mana wasn't happening constantly. Granted, perhaps I could have played in a way that would have found the fourth land more consistently. However, after hitting two or three land, I found myself trying to bury land with Sleight and Brainstorm. Having a Dragon in hand will result in something like virtual card disadvantage because you'll be trying to get to four mana, rather than using your resources to find other cards.

The large Dragon might be worthwhile, but I just wanted to point out that he comes at the cost of playing differently and trying to find lands more actively.
I think we're running very similar manabases, Rich. You didn't list your exact base, but mine is 8 fetches, 2-3 basics, and 6-7 duals for 17 lands total. I pretty much never have trouble finding the mana to cast Dragons in the midgame, and on the off chance that I do, I just bury them with Brainstorm or Visions or Jet. The reason I like them so much is because it's like doubling your threat density with a single card. I don't feel like I need more than 10 threats, because two of them stand alone and tend to win the game if they resolve. They require less protection and dedication of resources beyond the initial investment than Dryads do, and they fulfill a role that other threats do not, which is an evasive lategame finisher. It's better against Goblins than Dryad, but worse against combo and some forms of control. In the end I think it's probably a metagame call, but they're golden against aggro, which despite current trends towards combo, still makes up a huge percentage of the metagame.


Finally, on Counterspell. I had it in the GAT (UGb) list I split the Legacy with a couple of years ago, and it was bad then. I doubt things have changed enough to make it good. Combo is so fast it doesn't matter and Goblins runs through it. Stifle hit Vialed Matron, SGC, and Ringleader; Counterspell, at more mana, can't do that.I'm pretty sure I agree. I'm going to do some testing with a full 4 Stifles and see how it runs.

[The Atog Lord]

The next time I test Legacy, I will test the Dragons maindeck.

I also can't argue against Ancient Grudge. I guess losing to Chalice at 1 and at 2 isn't really as realistic a concern as needing to hit two targets with a single Artifact removal spell.

[Phantom]

The next time I test Legacy, I will test the Dragons maindeck.

I also can't argue against Ancient Grudge. I guess losing to Chalice at 1 and at 2 isn't really as realistic a concern as needing to hit two targets with a single Artifact removal spell.

Since I've tested Chalice against Thresh a ton (FS player), I can pretty much say that Grudge is just as good as Grip, unless you are boarding in 4. The biggest problem will be finding your artifact removal without access to your dig.

My only hesitation in making the switch would be the fact that Grudge doesn't hit enchantments.

[Amon Amarth]

Reasons to play UGR:

#1 Ancient Grudge
#2 Pyroclasm
#3 Instant speed reach in the form or burn.

Ancient Grudge is just so amazing.

Pretty much. Ancient Grudge makes hard matches, Stax and Affinity, retardedly good. Also, Red's removal is much better at putting critters in the 'yard to make Tarmogoyf better.

Congrats on the finish Atog Lord. Your list is very similar to the list I'm running.

Why only three Daze and four Stifle? I have found that three is often the perfect number. I always want a Daze in the early game because I want to protect a turn two Dryad or Goyf.

Why did you include Leyline and Crypt? Isn't that a bit excessive? And I really hate drawing into Leyline anytime past turn zero, obviously.

[The Atog Lord]

Leyline was for Iggy Pop and the all-land deck. Ill Gotten Gains is much better stopped by Leyline than by Crypt, and moreover the return plan of the land deck should be more hindered by Leyline than by Crypt.