[Deck] U/B/r The Hulk Show [Archive]

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Hanni

07-09-2007, 07:51 PM

U/B/r The Hulk Show

Lands (16)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp

Creatures (7)
4 Protean Hulk
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Karmic Guide
1 Kiki Jiki, Mirror Breaker

Spells (37)
4 Brainstorm
4 Portent
4 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Burning Wish
3 Show and Tell
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Lotus Petal

Sideboard (15)
1 Echoing Truth
1 Show and Tell
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Massacre
1 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroclasm
3 Pyroblast
3 Pithing Needle

The deck isn't nearly as broken as Hulk Flash was, but it's still pretty solid. The deck is now vulnerable to StP, which is a pretty big vulnerability. However, the deck does have a plentiful amount of disruption. 7 countermagic spells and 7 discard spells is a ton, plus the deck has Burning Wish targets too.

Show and Tell does essentially what Flash does, except it doesn't sacrifice the creature. For this reason, the deck also needs to utilize Cabal Therapy. Luckily, Burning Wish can grab either Show and Tell or Cabal Therapy, which makes things alot easier. It's also possible to just beatdown with a 6/6.

I run Lim-Dul's Vault as my other tutor because it has the ability to grab Hulk, which is essential. The fact that it can grab any of my combo pieces, as well as stack disruption, makes it invaluable. This deck needs 3 cards to combo: Show and Tell, Protean Hulk, and Cabal Therapy. This is bit more restrictive than Hulk Flash was, but it's not too too bad. Luckily most of the Hulk Flash hate, specifically Leyline, has declined a bit in the format.

I don't run Benevolent Bodygaurd because the only thing it protects me from is burn, since Hulk doesn't get sacrificed immediately. I probably should fit in Body Snatcher, though... thoughts on what to cut for it?

As far as the sideboard... E Truth is my only answer to enchantments, and I can't grab it with Burning Wish. However, I can still grab with Lim-Dul's Vault postboard. I was forced to either splash green for Simplify or just board E Truth. Massacre answers Meddling Mage, Shattering Spree answers artifacts. Pyroclasm answers Goblins, EtW tokens, or other fast aggro strategies. Pyroblast comes in vs decks like Threshold. Needle is in the board to answer Crypt and other potential randomness, although I'm not sure how necessary these are.

EDIT: Could a Mod retitle this thread to say U/B/r The Hulk Show, please?

Citrus-God

07-09-2007, 09:13 PM

Pinder

07-09-2007, 09:14 PM

calosso

07-09-2007, 09:39 PM

That cant be Hanni... he's disguising himself as Hanni by building a Hulk list... but he's running Portent over Serum Visions.

Hanni, Serum Visions is better in Hulk than Portent, IMO. Portent doesnt dig, it utilizes Control to make it more efficient. Portent is good in this with cards that serve as threats on it's own, whereas, Visions can find the combo.

But thats my opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong, so I hope IBA posts, so he can explain why he ran Portent over Serum Visions in the Hulk Flash era.

I hope you know Portent diggs for 1 more card that serum visions does. In a deck in which you need to find cards I would run portent over visions.

C.P.

07-09-2007, 10:22 PM

That cant be Hanni... he's disguising himself as Hanni by building a Hulk list... but he's running Portent over Serum Visions.

Hanni, Serum Visions is better in Hulk than Portent, IMO. Portent doesnt dig, it utilizes Control to make it more efficient. Portent is good in this with cards that serve as threats on it's own, whereas, Visions can find the combo.

But thats my opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong, so I hope IBA posts, so he can explain why he ran Portent over Serum Visions in the Hulk Flash era.

Portent has far better synergy with the Vault, since it can shuffle your library away after you utilized the cards you wanted.

About the list, show and tell is a subpar card, no matter how you look at it. I'd rather reanimate him or something.

Citrus-God

07-09-2007, 10:27 PM

I hope you know Portent diggs for 1 more card that serum visions does. In a deck in which you need to find cards I would run portent over visions.

Thats true, but what about getting rid of the dead cards?

@C.P.: Thanks. I wasnt thinking about Vault while I was looking through the list. Thanks for clearing that up.

Hanni

07-09-2007, 10:30 PM

The best part of using Show and Tell? It lets your opponent drop a free answer!

Seriously, do you have a way to deal with your opponent dropping a Needle or Supression Field or Engineered Plague some other permanent that completely hoses you, uncounterably because of your own spell?

Well, I'm hoping to rip their hand apart with Discard first, or else I'm hoping they cast it and I can counter it. The deck still has answers to stuff like Needle with Shattering Spree. Considering that I have to sacrifice Hulk to Cabal Therapy first (the deck forces Cabal Therapy to be cast twice to go off) tends to help keep those kinda cards out of the opponent's hand.

That cant be Hanni... he's disguising himself as Hanni by building a Hulk list... but he's running Portent over Serum Visions.

I know Serum Visions digs deeper. I plan on testing both. The reason I started testing Portent first is because it allows me to play the Forces and Dazes, that I get from Portent, on my opponent's turn. So, essentially, it strengthens my control game. Serum Visions is superior at digging, and I'm sure it's also a good choice in here. Once I determine whether or not I need the additional control of Portent will determine whether I switch to Serum Visions or stay with Portent.

About the list, show and tell is a subpar card, no matter how you look at it. I'd rather reanimate him or something.

But that forces me to run more cards. If I go reanimator, now I need discard outlets in addition to the reanimate spells. Discard outlet + Hulk + reanimate spell + Cabal Therapy = 4 card combo. That's horrible. For all that, I'd simply play The Polar Express. I truly don't think Show and Tell is that bad... the opponent gets to put a permanent into play. Most of the time this is going to be irrelevant, because I'm winning that turn... the only time it matters is when it casts a hate permanent like E Plague or something. Another thing to keep in mind is, this combo requires Cabal Therapy to be cast twice to go off... that tends to clear the opponent's hand out of the relevant hate cards like E Plague or whatever.

kabal

07-09-2007, 10:41 PM

Instead of going with the Hulk, how about you do more of a reanimator style. Something like so:

1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Sky Hussar
1 Karmic Guide
1 Gigapede

Then you can have your combo be 2 cards, instead of 3.

Shallow Grave
Buried Alive

C.P.

07-09-2007, 10:42 PM

BreathWeapon

07-09-2007, 10:53 PM

Phyrexian Tower mite be useful in the land count as another sacrifice outlet that fits seamlessly into the deck.

How is Burning Wish? When I tried rebuilding the deck, I ended up using Living Wish, because I could tutor for either Protean Hulk or an alternate target for Show and Tell. It seems like Burning Wish is forcing the deck into a one dimensional game plan while Living Wish does the same things as Burning Wish (albeit the removal is less efficient, Dark Confidant and Land are great tutor targets) while allowing the deck to disregard Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle by transforming into "Reanimator." Pernicious Deed is obviously no joke either.

Obfuscate Freely

07-09-2007, 11:50 PM

Hanni, Serum Visions is better in Hulk than Portent, IMO. Portent doesnt dig, it utilizes Control to make it more efficient. Portent is good in this with cards that serve as threats on it's own, whereas, Visions can find the combo.

I know Serum Visions digs deeper. I plan on testing both. The reason I started testing Portent first is because it allows me to play the Forces and Dazes, that I get from Portent, on my opponent's turn. So, essentially, it strengthens my control game. Serum Visions is superior at digging, and I'm sure it's also a good choice in here. Once I determine whether or not I need the additional control of Portent will determine whether I switch to Serum Visions or stay with Portent.
You guys have funny ways of evaluating cantrips.

Portent lets you look at three cards, and gives you the option of shuffling your library before it replaces itself. When you are looking for a specific card (meaning you are willing to shuffle the library to find it), Portent gives you four chances to find that card. If you don't find the card, Portent will have shuffled your library.

Serum Visions replaces itself immediately, and then lets you see two more cards and decide if they stay on top of your library or not. It gives you three chances to find a specific card. If you don't find the card, Visions will have put two blanks on the bottom of your library.

The extra card you see with Portent is obviously more relevant than Visions putting two blanks on the bottom of your library. I honestly don't understand how you can say that Visions "digs deeper" than Portent.

I'm sure I'm wrong, so I hope IBA posts, so he can explain why he ran Portent over Serum Visions in the Hulk Flash era.
I played Portent in Flash, as well. The card is basically an Impulse that costs one mana and is capable of setting up multiple draws (if you are willing to sacrifice seeing the fourth card), and that is spectacular. Serum Visions is comparatively rather weak.

Zork

07-10-2007, 12:06 AM

How is Burning Wish? When I tried rebuilding the deck, I ended up using Living Wish, because I could tutor for either Protean Hulk or an alternate target for Show and Tell. It seems like Burning Wish is forcing the deck into a one dimensional game plan while Living Wish does the same things as Burning Wish (albeit the removal is less efficient, Dark Confidant and Land are great tutor targets) while allowing the deck to disregard Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle by transforming into "Reanimator." Pernicious Deed is obviously no joke either.

Living Wish grabs 2 combo pieces (Hulk and Carrion Feeder for saccing), as does Burning Wish. The difference, though, is in what else the wishes imply. Burning wish runs red, which has the best answer to artifacts in the format (Spree, also wishable), a board clear against goblins (clasm), and wishing for a free board clear against hate cards (Massacre). Green offers slow answers to artifacts in grip and the wishable elf, no help against goblins, and no answers to creature hate cards.

As for the deck going reanimator, I hear a 6/6 is pretty big, and leaves slots open the board for cards that hate on leyline instead of a mediocre second plan. Show and Tell aggro is a bad deck, especially when you have to wish for your aggro card.

BreathWeapon

07-10-2007, 12:23 AM

Most of the green answers will still get the job done tho', and Pernicious Deed can pick up the slack. Most of the opponent's hate wont need to be answered if the deck can Show and Tell an alternate creature on the board, and I find a 6/6 really dubious in an environment with Tarmogoyf.

Happy Gilmore

07-10-2007, 01:52 AM

Hanni

07-10-2007, 02:31 AM

Phyrexian Tower mite be useful in the land count as another sacrifice outlet that fits seamlessly into the deck.

That sounds like a really good idea, actually, and I'm going to try and fit at least 1 of those in the deck.

How is Burning Wish? When I tried rebuilding the deck, I ended up using Living Wish, because I could tutor for either Protean Hulk or an alternate target for Show and Tell. It seems like Burning Wish is forcing the deck into a one dimensional game plan while Living Wish does the same things as Burning Wish (albeit the removal is less efficient, Dark Confidant and Land are great tutor targets) while allowing the deck to disregard Leyline of the Void, Tormod's Crypt and Pithing Needle by transforming into "Reanimator." Pernicious Deed is obviously no joke either.

Burning Wish grabs 2 combo pieces in Show and Tell and Cabal Therapy. It also gives me access to the other sorceries listed. Rather than try to shift the deck into reanimator postboard, I'd rather just use my board to try and fight off additional hate. Even on its lonesome, a 6/6 beater isn't really that bad... even against Tarmogoyf, it's not that bad. If I start having problems in testing against decks with Tarmogoyf, I'll consider adding some sort of sorcery speed spot removal, or even Damnation, to my board.

I'm not saying Living Wish is a bad idea. I just think it makes much more sense to run Burning Wish in this deck. I'm sure there are some other good Living Wish targets, like Viridian Shaman/Zealot and Phyrexian Tower, but I think (at least for now) that Burning Wish is the better choice.

You guys have funny ways of evaluating cantrips.

Portent lets you look at three cards, and gives you the option of shuffling your library before it replaces itself. When you are looking for a specific card (meaning you are willing to shuffle the library to find it), Portent gives you four chances to find that card. If you don't find the card, Portent will have shuffled your library.

Serum Visions replaces itself immediately, and then lets you see two more cards and decide if they stay on top of your library or not. It gives you three chances to find a specific card. If you don't find the card, Visions will have put two blanks on the bottom of your library.

The extra card you see with Portent is obviously more relevant than Visions putting two blanks on the bottom of your library. I honestly don't understand how you can say that Visions "digs deeper" than Portent

Sending cards directly to bottom gives you better chances of drawing into what it was that you needed better than shuffling the Library. Shuffling the Library re-randomizes the whole deck... sending the 2 cards to bottom ensures you won't be seeing those 2 cards again. 2 Serum Visions sends 4 cards to bottom, 2 Portent's shuffle the library twice. Portent may look at 4 cards in total after the shuffle, so the immediate dig for a certain spell might be slightly higher than Visions. Visions, however, is going to give you a greater chance of finding what you need over the course of several turns. Now, if the deck cracks a fetchland, then the benefit of Visions in this manner is pointless. However, from my personal experience with both cantrips, digging for early lands is much more efficient with Serum Visions than it is with Portent. This is one of the main reasons I run Visions over Portent in Fish. This deck has 16 lands and 4 Lotus Petals, so the need to dig for lands early is a little less necessary. My main reason for running Portent here, or at least starting off with it, is because it enables me to play FoW/Daze more efficiently early on to try and fight off hate like Needle.

@ Happy

That list is interesting, but I'm not sure how much more effective Intuition and Mystical Tutor are compared to Lim-Dul's Vault and Burning Wish (especially with them as 3-ofs). 4 MD Ghastly Demise is a bit interesting. I'd personally run Innocent Blood instead of Ghastly Demise since the deck is going to have graveyard hate thrown at it, and Innocent Blood is another sac outlet (although I suppose 6 cards in yard turns Ghastly Demise into a sac outlet, too). I'm not really sure what the Exhume is for, alternative win condition I'm guessing.

Either way though, both lists are trying to utilize similar gameplans. That deck doesn't look like a bad route. The Living Wish route that Breathweapon suggested doesn't sound bad either. I'm still thinking that the red splash and Burning Wish are the way to go, though.

Citrus-God

07-10-2007, 02:47 AM

Portent lets you look at three cards, and gives you the option of shuffling your library before it replaces itself. When you are looking for a specific card (meaning you are willing to shuffle the library to find it), Portent gives you four chances to find that card. If you don't find the card, Portent will have shuffled your library.

Logically, thats a good point. I guess the fact you dont immediately draw that card blindly is a good argument here as well.

Serum Visions replaces itself immediately, and then lets you see two more cards and decide if they stay on top of your library or not. It gives you three chances to find a specific card. If you don't find the card, Visions will have put two blanks on the bottom of your library.

I guess 4 chances over 3 chances is better.

The extra card you see with Portent is obviously more relevant than Visions putting two blanks on the bottom of your library. I honestly don't understand how you can say that Visions "digs deeper" than Portent.

I had no idea either. I guess it's the fact it "puts cards on the bottom" that blinded me. I always knew that Portent could dig deeper than Visions, but at times I was very unhappy with drawing extra combo pieces with Portent, then again, I have always forgotten about the fact I ran 8 fetchlands in that deck. Visions would've sent some unwanted cards on the bottom, but it's probably a weak argument.

I played Portent in Flash, as well. The card is basically an Impulse that costs one mana and is capable of setting up multiple draws (if you are willing to sacrifice seeing the fourth card), and that is spectacular. Serum Visions is comparatively rather weak.

I heard you used the 4/2 configuration to Top 8 at Kadi's DLD. I was asking what people thought of that configuration, since I have been played that configuration for months.

@Hanni: Chaining cantrips doesnt matter, since you're already chaining them. It's very uncommon that a Serum Visions would chain together by themselves unless you have Brainstorm, so in that case, you're
already chaining cantrips.

Hanni

07-10-2007, 02:51 AM

-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Phrexian Tower

With 8 fetches, 2 Volcanic Islands, and 4 Lotus Petals... I think my red source count should be plenty. If not, I can always switch back. For now, I want to test the additional sacrifice outlet.

Iranon

07-10-2007, 04:34 AM

From your friendly neighboorhood dork:

Assuming 4 copies left to find, 50 cards in your library when we start:

The chance that the card we are looking for is in the first 3 cards (in which case we'll have it next turn with both) is 22,5%.

Given that the object of our desire isn't in the top 3, the chance of drawing it next turn is 13,6% with Portent compared to 8,5% with Serum Visions, making for a total chance of having it in our dirty paws next turn 33% and 29.1% respectively, a clear advantage for Portent.

***

Serum visions gives us an 8% chance of drawing that card now instead of next turn. If we do get what we want this turn or next, we have more refined options to sculpt our further draws. Multiple Visions chain into one another better than multiple Portents. Serum Visions is superior when cast before other cantrips, but worse after.

Serum Vision is true Dig in that even if it doesn't find what you are looking for, it gets you closer. The chance of randomly drawing the card we are looking for are 4/47 after a 'failed' Visions compared to the 4/49 after an unsuccessful Portent, because we eliminated 2 blanks from the possible topdecks.
Since this improved chance to draw what we want is cumulative, Serum Visions is more reliable in the long run. It only catches up after an unreasonably long time before we shuffle the library, however.

Portent can be used on the opponent (this could be useful for Mirage-era tutors or to get out of Countertop cheese). It's also a useful shuffle effect that clears junk away before you draw after a brainstorm or a vault.

***

In general, I consider Serum Visions to be the stronger card. In a deck that wants its shuffle effects and can afford the delay (Spring Tide is a good example of a deck that can't), Portent is more synergistic.

raharu

07-10-2007, 05:39 AM

through the breach?? sneak attack (though it;s weaker)??? beats whatever else you can run (although it's a little slower)

Hanni

07-10-2007, 05:53 AM

I know this thread is for U/B/r, and I know how much I was advocating Burning Wish, but here's another version I've been trying too:

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
3 [U] Underground Sea
2 [A] Tropical Island
2 [B] Bayou
1 [IN] Island (3)
1 [P2] Swamp (3)

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker

// Spells
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FD] Serum Visions
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
1 [FS] Summoner's Pact
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [US] Duress
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [DS] Echoing Truth

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FS] Summoner's Pact
SB: 2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [NE] Massacre
SB: 4 [FS] Tarmogoyf
SB: 1 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [AP] Pernicious Deed

This deck has less disruption with the loss off Daze but I've been getting faster and more consistent goldfishes with it. Running Mystical Tutor instead of Burning Wish gives me a cheaper tutor (1cc instead of 2cc), albeit goes to the top. It allows me to run the full 4/4 Show/Therapy MD, which increases drawing combo parts by 1, and it allows me to run a 1-of Summoner's Pact to increase goldfish consistency. I dropped the Lotus Petals, which does slow the deck down a little, but I increased the land count by 1. The manabase has been pretty stable so far. I also squeezed in 2 Ghastly Demise to give me some removal MD, and it can also kill off my Hulk (so it's another combo piece), and Echoing Truth gives me a versatile answer MD.

I have yet to use the SB yet. The Summoner's Pacts are there to come in against face paced aggro decks like Goblins so that I goldfish faster. The extra E Truth is there for EtW tokens, as well as whatever. The extra Demises, Deeds, and Tarmogoyfs come in against aggro/control. The SB is completely untuned at the moment. The MD has been enjoyable, though.

ninjabear

07-10-2007, 06:16 AM

But that forces me to run more cards. If I go reanimator, now I need discard outlets in addition to the reanimate spells. Discard outlet + Hulk + reanimate spell + Cabal Therapy = 4 card combo. That's horrible.
Your discard outlet can be at the same time your sacrifice outlet. Cabal Therapy yourself, naming Protean Hulk, and then flash it back later to sacrifice it. Or even Smallpox could help to either discard or sacrifice the creature. And your reanimate spell could also sacrifice your Hulk (Necromancy, I'm looking at you). So it's a 3 card combo, similar to your proposal. Though I think that the best deck should be built using Show and Tell AND/OR Reanimate spell, as many cards are common (like Cabal Therapy).

DrJones

07-10-2007, 06:25 AM

Can't you include more Carrion Feeders as sacrifice outlets?

ninjabear

07-10-2007, 06:27 AM

At top8 Columbus, one of the Hulk Flash lists had 4 Sensei Divining Top and 4 Counterbalance. I find that synergy spectacular, as the Top helps searching for the combo (specially with fetches) and all the tutors (Lim-Dul's Vault, Mystical Tutor) help with Counterbalance. Maybe Counterbalance is not so suited in a Combo deck, but giving you some time against other combo decks is always something to rejoice about :)

BreathWeapon

07-10-2007, 11:32 AM

Daze isn't needed, the difference between Flash and Show and Tells cc's is significant in that Daze is a serious set back for Show and Tell, since it can't win with a single land and a Summoner's Pact for G. You can't use Daze to protect from Pithing Needle or Tormod's Crypt any way, so you aren't missing anything significant.

Cait_Sith

07-10-2007, 09:36 PM

Honestly I am not seeing too much advantage is running red. If you drop red you can easily run 3-4 High Market (also fetchable with Living Wish).

I would envision:

// Lands
1 [5E] Swamp
1 [U] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
1 [MM] High Market
3 [RAV] Watery Grave

// Creatures
4 [DIS] Protean Hulk
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 [UL] Karmic Guide
1 [SC] Carrion Feeder

// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
2 [OD] Ghastly Demise
1 [FUT] Summoner's Pact
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [7E] Duress
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [IA] Portent
4 [IA] Brainstorm
3 [FD] Serum Visions

This is a mix of my old list and some of the new tech you brought it. I called it "Hulk and Tell" before.

The big problem I keep running in to is getting all the pieces into my hands. I am thinking of running Serum Visions over Vault just so I can have a critical mass of cantrips early on. I think that might be more effective, but I am not sure.

Edit: I just got a brainstorm and made some test changes. I have yet to actually CAST Lim-Dul's Vault and am beginning to wonder if Pact of Negation would be better here.