[Deck] UWB CounterTop Dreadnought [Archive]

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emidln

07-11-2007, 10:45 AM

So, with the unerrata of Dreadnought in the near future, I threw together this list to start my testing:

// Lands
3 [R] Tundra
4 [ON] Island (3)
3 [U] Underground Sea
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
3 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [TSP] Trickbind
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle

Notable inclusions are the Trinket Mage engine to find not only Dreadnought, but also a small toolbox of Crypt, Needle, EE, and SDT. Standard control inclusions of Force, Brainstorm, STP lead to the open slots, defined by the Counterbalance/SDT control engine as well as the Phyrexian Dreadnought/Stifle_effect combo. I included Confidant because, well, why not?

Some points of contention:

CounterTop - hot or not?
Trinket Mage toolbox?
How many stifle effects? (I run 5)
Any tutors for stifle effects (ala Merchant Scroll)
If, scroll, or even by itself, is Chrome Mox worthy? (I cut it after about 15 games.)

Thoughts? What other ideas do we have for this?

Anusien

07-11-2007, 11:36 AM

Is 4 Dreadnought really the way you want to go? You have 4 ways to find one and it's only ever good with Stifle. I think at most you want three.

I would also consider Muddle the Mixture simply because it tutors up so many good targets, like Counterbalance, Bob and Trickbind.

Seat of the Synod is pretty horrible. If you were going to run any artifact lands, it would be in your splash colors (Vault of Whispers and Ancient Den) since if you can play Trinket Mage, you have access to blue and it is just BEGGING to get Wastelanded. Plus if you already have three lands in play, chance are good that you don't want to tutor up another.

There's almost no excuse not to consider basic lands in your splash colors; the first change I would make is -3 Seat of the Synod, +1 Plains, +1 Swamp, +1 Island. I would also consider 3 Chrome Mox seriously at the cost of three lands; I've been extremely happy with it in a variety of decks.

Academy Ruins: I'm fairly certain you're going to hate this card with a burning, fiery passion. Thoughts? It has only Crypt and EE as good targets, and the ability to get back Top and Needle if they are countered/destroyed. Big deal.

Do you actually need White? You're splashing entirely for Swords to Plowshares and marginal utility via EE. Hell, you could run all kinds of blue or black removal (Repeal, Edict, Ghastly Demise) or even something like Bone Shredder.

Is this actually enough creatures? You only have 8 creatures that are reliable; it seems like you have to go up to Dreadnought to beat every deck.

One of my questions is why is this deck so much better with Dreadnought than Leveller or Eater of Days?

Blair Phoenix

07-11-2007, 12:01 PM

I think there are overall more better ways to abuse dreadnaught than this. You have only 4 win conditions, and to even use it you need to rely on getting another card. Finally there are just so many different ways to easily kill a 1 mana casting artifact creature card.

zulander

07-11-2007, 12:06 PM

One of my questions is why is this deck so much better with Dreadnought than Leveller or Eater of Days?
Because you can tutor him up as well as draw into him. Making the win cons in the deck 8.

As for the inclusion of chrom mox I'd suggest it. Playing dreadnought turn one with stifle in hand and force backup is a pretty good clock.

sammiel

07-11-2007, 12:12 PM

I would consider making it UBR for burn and fling.

Illissius

07-11-2007, 12:18 PM

One of my questions is why is this deck so much better with Dreadnought than Leveller or Eater of Days?

Do you seriously not realize the difference between one mana and four (or five) mana?

(And Dreadnought is a much stronger creature, for what it's worth.)

Also: Another way to cheat Dreadnoughts is to play one, and then Vial in a second one in response to the CIP trigger, sacrificing the first one to pay for the second.

zulander

07-11-2007, 12:19 PM

I would consider making it UBR for burn and fling.

Haha that'd be funny. Turn one dreadnaught, turn 2 swing and fling.

Also, have you tested green for berserk?

Lukas Preuss

07-11-2007, 12:23 PM

The white splash doesn't seem to be that good since you only use it for StP... you should seriously consider burn instead, making your deck even faster. You could also consider red for Fling since it is another card that combos well with the dreadnought.

Countertop IS hot. Definitely.
I'm not sure about the toolbox. It's nice but I wouldn't want to waste too many slots.
I would consider to run more Stifle effects since they are really good as control elements in your deck, as well. You don't want to hold on to your Stifle when they crack their only fetchland, just because you need it to combo off. If you consider running Merchant Scroll, you should consider running more Stifle effects instead, since it's a really strong card on its own already.
I would not run Chrome Mox since the mana curve of this deck is really low already, and it doesn't speed you up significantly. Also, this deck plays a strong control role, as well, and the card disadvantage of Chrome Mox doesn't help this game plan.

Phantom

07-11-2007, 01:03 PM

Isn't Trickbind > Stifle in these Dreadnought decks? I mena, you usually have the three mana anyway (and if you don't you are often asking for a daze 2-for-1) and split second is great.

I was thinking mana denial Dreadnought would be strong, since you're already going to be running Stifle effects, but Counterbalance is always solid (although the Goblins matchup looks damn near an autoloss).

4eak

07-11-2007, 01:05 PM

I love the Confidant and Fling, both are so awesomely aggressive cards. I think these are definitely worth running, even at the sacrifice of StP.

I'm not loving the CounterTop. It is too unwieldy, and I don't like the double U. Additionally, if you go red, then I think you should play more aggressively with the deck.

You definitely need to run at least 6 Stifle effects (or better tutorage). Stifle can stand on its own, so extras won't kill you.

I prefer to sit back on control/disruption cards than to use Chrome Mox. It is usually better to slow a combo-esque down and run these sorts of protection cards than to speed it up with Chrome Mox.

After looking at your list and suggestions, here is what I'm trying out now:

-=14 The Noughty-combo=-
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Fling

-=8 TM-Package=-
4 Trinket Mage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 EE

-=8 Draw=-
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Confidant

-=8 Control=-
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

-=22 Land=-
8 Fetch
4 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
5 Island
1 Great Furnace
1 Vault of Whispers

Fling gives you a lot of incentive to keep 4x noughts in the deck, and it also acts as a fairly versatile CIP response card (as it can be used even after a stifled nought). Trigger on the stack->Fling. You got your money's worth out of that dreadnought. Fling makes your mages count for more than just a toolbox too...you want to see every dreadnought you can with 6 stifles and 4 flings.

peace,
4eak

raharu

07-11-2007, 05:53 PM

emidln

07-11-2007, 06:46 PM

OK, first off, 4 Trickbind and 2 Stifle = the way to go. Second off, YOU RUN WHITE AND NO ENLIGHTENED TUTOR. Are you high? It makes the deck vastly better, and it kicks the crap out of trinket mage. Also, since you should (and probably will) run enlightened tutor, you should cut bob for Phraxian arena. It's much better and you don't have to top for it every turn.

Well, past the insults, I have to question if you have ever played competitive magic. Phyrexian Arena has a CMC of 3 (2 of which of double black) and will deal me 1 damage per turn. The deck's average CMC is 1.13 (in the reference list with none of the changes Anusien mentioned or I've made after a day of testing). This means that I'll barely take more damage on average in exchange for playing a card that I will absolutely never cast. If you are topping every turn before Bob just to avoid damage you are playing the deck incorrectly.

Now, Enlightened Tutor can find exactly 1 extra card (Counterbalance) that Trinket Mage can't. Enlightened Tutor can't ever produce card advantage. In fact, everytime you cast it, you are losing cards, in addition to the 2 for 1 you are investing in things like Dreadnought, Chrome Mox, and Force of Will. Additionally, Enlightened Tutor never beats for 2. So far, Confidant/Trinket Mage beats backed up by the control game has won me numerous games (probably around 40% of my wins).

After some testing, a red splash for Fling is much better than white for STP (and even the UWR Salvagers control hybrid I was testing (1-of Dreadnought as an alternate win). I'm really liking Fling in the deck, but I'm definitely playing 4x Daze and 4x Force, perhaps even Duress.

raharu

07-11-2007, 07:07 PM

The enlightened tutor is better with counterbalance, who cares it Trinket mage is a 2/2, it's not the win-con, and if you think that Confidant is better than Arena, fine, but it's 1 turn difference, less vulnerable to removal, and is a lightning rod for artifact/ enchantment removal (somewhat). If your deck gets into the long game, then i say your build is not dreadnought-centric enough. That's me and your build is your's, but I would run Enlightened tutor. By the way it's 2 turns faster and the card you fetch won't get duressed away if it's on the top of your deck, and you can still play it next turn (when you'll have the open mana).

The "insults" were not meant to be personal, so you know.

Anusien

07-11-2007, 07:57 PM

Do you seriously not realize the difference between one mana and four (or five) mana?
Sure I do, but Dreadnought + Stifle (Trinket Mage aside) is only an evolutionary change, not a revolutionary change. It doesn't cut a turn off the clock in most cases, it's only that it's cheaper. And that cheapness is sort of a misnomer; you'll have 4 by the time you cast Dreadnought in almost all cases since you have to cast spells and find the Stifle or Trickbind and the Dreadnought. Trinket Mage->Dreadnought requires 3, for example.

raharu

07-11-2007, 08:04 PM

I don't think that's the point... Trinket mage doesn't fetch your fatties, and you still have to stifle both of them. That is at best 3 turns slower that the fastest turn that you can play dreadnought. It is infinitely better. No offense.

EDIT: Oh yeah, i forgot, it's bigger

Sanguine Voyeur

07-11-2007, 08:08 PM

Trinket mage doesn't fetch your fattiesWhat the hell are we building around? Is 12/12 not a "fattie" to you?

Raider Bob

07-12-2007, 12:22 AM

The deck seems very 'One Trick' why not abuse vial by casting Naught with the trigger on the stack vial in naught and sac the first naught to the second naught. It seems like a fairly logical approach for this deck. Vial at 2 is good for Bob and you probably should use Berserk and Tarmagorf in it as well as log as you are trying to use dumb cards.

Hanni

07-12-2007, 01:43 AM

U/B/w Dreadnought

Lands (17)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Ungerground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Academy Ruins

Creatures (11)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Stifle
3 Trickbind
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboard (15)
3 Counterbalance
3 Disenchant
4 Engineered Plague
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle

I think, for most matchups, that Duress and Daze MD instead of Counterbalance is going to be better. Counterbalance can come in against aggro/control decks. I find Counterbalance too slow vs combo and too slow (or just plain awful) against most aggro. Against control decks, well... this deck doesn't run anything larger than 3cc (most everything is 1cc and 2cc) so I dunno, it could possibly be good. Against aggro/control though, it's amazing. This IMO, would make it better as a SB option than a MD option.

I'm not really sure that the Engineered Plagues are needed. An alternate win condition in their place could be a better option, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if 3 Top's is necessary for Counterbalance with 4 Trinket Mages either. A 1-of Cursed Scroll could be a decent alternate win condition (in place of a Top or something).

This is untested, I just figured I'd post up the list I'd start with as far as testing purposes go.

Iranon

07-12-2007, 04:28 AM

How badly do we need the splash colours?

Stifle and Trickbind can work quite effectively as mana denial; back it up with Wasteland and you could steal games on the back of this alone. It would also make Daze more attractive.

raharu

07-12-2007, 09:54 PM

B/R/U land destruction/ control with dreadnought?

WiLdFiRe

07-24-2007, 04:20 AM

Speaking of removing splash colours, a friend of mine ran this list both to a 3-1 finish at a side event at Australian Nationals. It was put together the night before, with a little brainstorming over MWS beforehand. It plays like a normal countertop deck with a (relatively) blazing fast win condition.

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Trinket Mage
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
4 Back to Basics (This was nuts against every deck we played that day)
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
1 Pithing Needle
1 Aether Spellbomb
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Chrome Mox
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
14 Island

I'd like to fit in another Counterbalance and Trinket Mage, but I honestly can't find the room. Echoing Truth and Merchant Scroll/Mystical Tutor would be awesome as well. Lastly, I'd like to add an Engineered Explosives, but I already have an awesome Belcher matchup with 6x Stifle and maindeck Pithing Needle. Any suggestions would be awesome, especially in regards to the SB. The one we ran is as follows:
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Morphling (If they board in too much artifact hate, this might be better as Meloku)
3 Echoing Truth
2 Trickbind
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle

Give it a run before you bash it, while it's not always the correct play to go for turn 2 Dreadnought, the deck has a lot of trouble with resolved beaters, and sometimes you just have to race with him, and it's hard to beat a 12/12 trampler.

jegger

09-17-2007, 11:16 AM

Yersteday I do a top8 at a 33-tournament with my counterTop Dreadnought decklist. I see only now this thread, but I develop my decklist to a list very similar to some lists that I can see in this thread.

The list is really strong.
I've lost only to classic landstill UW in swiss/top8, because I haven't more pithing needle in side and because I don't playtest very much for this matchup.
My meta is full of gobbos and threshold plus someone combo and control.

Combo is a bye.
Gobbo is an unfavorable matchup but with 4 plague in side we can fix the matchup.
Threshold is in our favor. Usually I kill my opponent with his tarmogoyf (thx threads of disloyalty).
Control I think that depends very much from the skill of players.

Bahamuth

09-17-2007, 11:39 AM

I'd like to see your list. I'm very interested in this deck.

jegger

09-17-2007, 02:51 PM

I'd like to see your list. I'm very interested in this deck.
The decklist I've used is this:

3 tundra
3 underground sea
3 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 plains
1 swamp
5 island
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins

4 dark confidant
4 trinket mage
3 jotun grunt
1 phyrexian dreadnought

4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
3 counterbalance
3 duress
2 sensei's diving top
1 engineered explosives
1 tormod's crypt
1 pithing needle

sideboard
4 engineered plague
4 leyline of the void
2 smother
2 threads of disloyalty
2 disenchant
1 engineered explosives

lukatron2

09-17-2007, 06:36 PM

This is pretty much the same deck we've been discussing over in the "Trinknought" thread but with white instead of green. We actually talked about white but haven't tested it yet.

jegger

09-18-2007, 04:13 AM

I see your list, but I prefer to post my list here after a thread search.

I think I am the only man here that consider tarmogoyf overstimated. :cry:
So I prefer jotun+StP to goyf.

Then I put a comment on your thread.

blitz

12-06-2007, 10:58 PM

Sorry to necro the thread, but I came up with something offhand that I had to post, and the last topic in the thread happened to be "what about the white splash?"

So, I happen to have a UW StifleNought deck with a CB+top permission shell I thought I'd share. ^^;

// Lands
2 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [MR] Island (1)
3 [MR] Plains (1)
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [10E] Faerie Conclave

// Creatures
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FD] Trinket Mage
4 [PS] Meddling Mage

// Spells
3 [MM] Counterspell
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [MM] Brainstorm

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Counterspell
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [RAV] Remand
SB: 4 [NE] Seal of Cleansing

A rough list I put together yesterday, and it's nowhere near refined, but this is just an idea I wanted to put out there.

The why? Mage names stp, becomes back up counterspell with aether vial, and thus protects the nought, deals with hate, and turns sideways for 2. Obv. 2 extra stifle effects main (trickbind), which, if coupled with aether vial, makes dreadnought untouchable to countermagic (so it's good in the control matchups). Faerie Conclave flies, so I put it in over factory. The activation cost hasn't been an issue yet, and the flying has won me games I had no business winning (like flying over a freshly played goyfs head to knock them down into nought range for when I eot some vial -> nought + stifle action and win next turn thanks to trample). 4 mage and 4 Etutor main for some serious tutoring power, allows us to combo into nought quickly against aggro and into CB+top against control/combo. I put OBVring 4of in SB so that the 4 obvring and 2 maze along with the nought itself work towards establishing a threshold of hate capable of holding off aggro until you run them through with nought or continued faerie beats. 2 noughts main so that if 1 somehow dies to a permission war, you aren't left with just faeries and mazes to get your beats in (Maze + faeries is a great combat trick! You attack unblocked, they don't get to attack). The fun part about the deck is that the tutoring in the deck works for both CB+top and nought + stifle. CB in hand? trinket/Etutor for SDT. The only pieces that can't be fetched by all 8 tutors are CB (4 enlighted tutor) and stifle (6 cards maindeck which fill that role). Faerie and maze also act together as uncounterable board control, which I think is really what this deck wants in the first place, not STP (though I am open to testing it, it isn't reusable, a maze will keep goyf occupied all day long until needle or wasteland show up, but that's why we run COUNTERS!) Also, aether vial + 2 noughts = w00t (I may add more noughts to add to the consistency of the deck getting nought out so stifle isn't as necessary, plus vial and nought are fetchable, but a stifle isn't, so it works out!)

thefreakaccident

12-07-2007, 05:04 PM

lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tropical island
3 wooded foothills
3 flooded strand
2 breeding pool
1 island
1 forest

creatures//14
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
4 trinket mage
2 phyrexian dreadnought

spells//28
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
2 trickbind
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's divining top
1 Aether spell bomb
4 ponder
4 brainstorm

I also considered a strictly tempo version with:

lands//18
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
1 breeding pool
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 island

spells//25
4 force of will
4 daze
2 counterspell
4 stifle
2 trickbind
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 engineered explosives

creatures//16 creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 nimble mongoose
4 werebear
4 dreadnought

Sideboard for the second list is unknown...

e_hawk77

12-07-2007, 06:29 PM

the list i'm playing which has given me good results so far after a few changes is this.

4 dreadnought
4 bob

4 daze
4 force of will
3 swords to plowshares
4 duress

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
2 enlightned tutor

4 stifle
3 vision charm

1 needle
1 top
1 engineered explosive
1 vedalken shakles

1 scrubland
1 tundra
1 underground sea
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
1 swamp
1 plains
1 academy ruins
5 island

sb
1 tormad's crypt
1 needle
1 engineered explosive
4 engineered plague
2 threads of disloyalty
2 counterbalance
2 seal of cleansing
2 back to basics

i know i will make more changes from week to week but i think it is getting really good.

btw vision charm is nuts. it works with his trigger on the stack and if they try and kill him after you can phase him out.

xsockmonkeyx

12-10-2007, 06:51 AM

Cool, e. hawk uses Vision Charm too. :smile: After seeing the Japanese list from unlocking legacy (http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/15135.html) and e.hawk's list I'm going to try something like this:

4 Dreadnought
4 Bob

3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Daze
4 FoW
4 StP
4 Thoughtseize

4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm

1 Academy Ruins
3 Strand
4 Delta
3 Tundra
4 Sea
1 Swamp
1 Island

Is the life loss from Bob, Thoughtsieze, and fetches going to add up too quickly? Also, the Japanese list has Aether Vial and Eprocrasite. Epcocrasite might make for a nice secondary win condition and Vial sneaks in a 4/4 Ecocrasite and enables the double nought trick. Might be cool ideas.

blitz

12-13-2007, 09:55 AM

How do you guys use vision charm? Doesn't the phasing become an annoyance?

nastynate

12-13-2007, 10:57 AM

How do you guys use vision charm? Doesn't the phasing become an annoyance?

When you play dreadnought, its sacrifice trigger goes on the stack. In response, you then play vision charm, phasing the dreadnought out, leaving nothing to sacrifice. On your next turn the dreadnought phases back in. Phasing in does not trigger comes into play effects.

Besides being another 1CC means of cheating the dreadnought sacrifice, it's also useful as protection from removal spells like swords to plowshares, smother, ancient grudge, and so on.

What about phasing is annoying? I suppose it leaves you without a blocker for a turn, but other than that vision charm is nothing but WIN.

xLupotehwolfx

12-16-2007, 04:10 AM

this is the list i've been tinkering with for a while now

// Lands
1 [PT] Island (4)
4 [A] Tropical Island
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [NE] Daze
3 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [A] Counterspell
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [SC] Stifle
3 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [OD] Ghastly Demise

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 [TSP] Trickbind

i havent really been enjoying the my testing with vision charm, more often than not i'd prefer to have by beefcake nought in the mix to prevent some sort of slag being thrown at me the turn before he phases back in.

but does splashing black mean you need to toss in some disruption (duress, thoughtseize), or should counterbalance top be enough to throw someone on tilt while your man blitzes for near lethal damage?

the goblins matchup is unfavorable, 3 plague? 4plague? no plague and go with blasts?

has trinket mage already been tossed aside or is he still a viable tutor? if nothing else, he becomes a 3CC for the top.

Does white need to be splashed over black for more efficient removal like stp, or is ghastly demise still an option?

sb deed, yay or nay?

so far ive had amazing results with this deck running through most threshold variants, as well as a few landstill matchups (MD stifle helps against opposing EEs), loam, and most combo matchups.

any and all criticism and/or input is appreciated...rip it apart fellas

No_Life_No_Future

12-16-2007, 12:26 PM

Here is an idea.

As much as I like Trinket Mage, maybe you could use Artificers Intuition for Aether Vial, Dreadnought, Dreadnought. And vial in knaught in response to playing one.

You would probably have to up the artifact count to make this possible.

thefreakaccident

12-26-2007, 09:02 PM

This is a varient strictly based off of Anusian's article... I have been testing it against a variety of decks and while the control MU is almost unwinnable, everything else is great...

4 dark confidant
4 meddling mage
4 epochrisite
4 phyrexian dreadnought

4 daze
4 force of will
3 enlightened tutor
3 Aether vial
4 brinstorm
4 stifle
4 vision charm

4 tundra
4 underground sea
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
1 island
1 plains
1 academy ruins

sideboard//
3 pithing needle
3 enginered explosives
3 planar void
3 rule of law
3 engineered plague

You can board pretty well against anything, as it is like having 6 of it... rule shuts down storm combo if you get two online... you can wish for plagues against elves and goblins, you can also tutor for a quick wincon.

There are 11 ways to cheat the nought into play and the deck is packed full of ways to keep him there.

I recently removed swords, as I had a delema... destroy their 3/4 goyf on turn 1, or tutor for my 12/12 trampler that comes into play next turn?

Duress was removed from the MD as I like meddline mages ability to name swordLet me know what you guys think of it!

blitz

12-26-2007, 09:29 PM

mujadaddy

12-27-2007, 01:45 AM

Countertop IS hot. Definitely.
I propose calling all these Countertop decks "Formica" ...

This deck would therefore be "Formica-naught"...

:cool:

thefreakaccident

12-27-2007, 03:00 PM

How in the world does counterbalance + sensei's divining top = Formica

I think this deck could benefit from a cool name like nought fish, or dreaded fish... I could just call it peice of shit on my ballat sheet anyways... I will get a warning for it though...

No_Life_No_Future

12-27-2007, 05:24 PM

I randomly found this: Winding Canyons

Its a little jankey but it could work if you had multiple dreadnoughts in hand.

mujadaddy

12-27-2007, 06:12 PM

How in the world does counterbalance + sensei's divining top = Formica
How have you lived in the US&A and not heard of formica countertops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formica_%28plastic%29)? :laugh:

thefreakaccident

12-27-2007, 07:05 PM

I randomly found this: Haze of Rage

Its a little jankey but it could work as another way to put a dreadknaught into play.

Are you sure you meant Haze of Rage, it is just a pump spell with buyback and storm.... I don't see any synergy with dreadnought.dec in the least...

I have been playtesting a lot with my recent list, and it seems not only really promising; but completely broken as hell... perhapes this will be my new official project.

No_Life_No_Future

12-27-2007, 07:46 PM

Wrong paste sorry. I meant Winding Canyons.

BreathWeapon

12-27-2007, 09:04 PM

Why are you using Epochrasite as the second win condition when you could use Tombstalker or Jotun Grunt? Vision Charm enables a turn 2 Tombstalker and both Vision Charm and Stifle have synergy with Jotun Grunt.

Vision Charm and Trinket Mage do not mix, the deck either wants to concentrate on Stifle, Vision Charm, Enlightened Tutor and Daze in order to race aggro or lock the opponent under Counterbalance or Stifle, Trickbind, Trinket Mage and Wasteland in order to disrupt the opponent's mana base or slow roll into the win condition.

Aether Vial is just bad.

Lemuria

12-27-2007, 09:33 PM

Just for curiosity:

Can you Fling a Dreadnought in response to his trigger abillity when he comes to play?

BreathWeapon

12-27-2007, 09:40 PM

Just for curiosity:

Can you Fling a Dreadnought in response to his trigger abillity when he comes to play?

Yeah, people tried it in Affinity.

Lemuria

12-27-2007, 10:29 PM

Yeah, people tried it in Affinity.

Hm, that makes the red splash sexiest.

thefreakaccident

12-27-2007, 10:38 PM

Hm, that makes the red splash sexiest.

The red splash is a little harder to pull off though, although it can be a little more explosive...

It is kind of like how UGR thresh is a little quicker than the UGW threshold when it comes down to killing the opponent... The white splash allows a little more disruption, as well as a technical quickness given to the deck through enlightened tutor.

Damoxx

01-03-2008, 08:56 PM

I've been playing this list on mws for about 2 weeks now. Been doing pretty good. It's basically a card advantage deck. Every card in the deck is or can find a threat. Playing against control, Bob to the rescue. Weenies/tokens got you down, EE makes a big boom. That big tarmogoyf beating your face, dreadnought make him look puny. Back all that up with the "formica" engine, you get a menacing (i think) deck. Vision charm has done so much for me in my testing, it will NOT come out for anything. It protects your nought from removal, cheats the noughts effect, and can phase out any annoying artifact usually long enough for you to deal with it permanently. It's a lot of fun and many more wins than losses, but hey its MWS. Anyway heres the list(I kinda want to call it Naughty Goodness, cause every card is so dang good).

Artifacts
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
Creatures
2 Phyexian Dreadnaught
3 Trinket Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Vision Charm
3 Counterbalance
Lands
1 Academy Ruins
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Sideboard
4 Planar Void
1 Counterbalance
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Trickbind

The only real problem I had in my limited testing was green stompy. Out of about 7 games, I won maybe 2. It could just be that I'm not the best at playing, but who knows. What I do know is that it is tons of fun to play. You can usually fake your opponent into thinking your playing thresh for few turns. What I also enjoy about it is that you almost always have an answer for a problem. During my time playing it online, I think I played about 3-4 matches against some version of stax. I did not lose any of them, but I probably just got lucky. I do know that it has a distinct lack of spot removal, but more often than not, my creatures are just plain better. Any input is helpful, but you should try it out, its a blast to play.

Ceridan

02-02-2008, 05:31 AM

Hi!

Does anyone still play this deck? Has it undergone any changes?

Poron

02-04-2008, 10:09 AM

I don't really feel Counterbalance belongs to this deck... Counterbalance is a control card which requires a deck constructed on it.

This is a combo deck which is only aiming to find Dreadnogh+Fling+Stifle, with some blue and black for disruption. Counterbalance is way too slow here, imho.

Anyway apart from this in the last list of this post, Counterbalance is the only card which requires 2 colored mana and there are 3 colors in this deck, and 2 of these 3 are here for just 1 card... (Dark Confidant and Tarmagoyf), I would surely cut 1 color (green) and replace the card cut with something else of the same type (Rotting Giant? Wretched Anurid?)

Since we are also playing Planar Void SB I would stay U/b and I would add Duress MD

-4 Tarmagoyf
+4 Rotting Giant
-3 Ponder or Vision Charm
-3 Counterbalance
+2 Trickbind
+4 Duress

Mokaod

10-03-2008, 07:59 AM

I'm going to play a Ub variety on this deck coming weekend on a DCI sanctioned match in NL. At the moment it looks like it will be an interesting tournament, with a lot of archetype decks. I know sligh will be played, vial goblins (mono R burn and prob another variety), threshold, protcolo.

I'm running countertop and 4 noughts with 6 stifle effects. black for removal and some disruption. Still thinking about running mishra or b2b. mishra is a fast answer to lackey and alike, while b2b is a powerhouse in this format due to high dual and special land count. Choices Choices...

will post full decklist together with results if i remember to take notes during play (i'm lazy, sorry hehe). Not posting full list here yet because some people here might attend that tournament too, and don't want to show my deck to them beforehand ;)

Grrrrrrr Mok

Mokaod

10-06-2008, 05:34 AM

Hi all,

Yesterday I played at the tournament in Maastricht, NL. DCI sanctioned, 44 players (more players then room, 30-34 expected :O ). I have seen almost all DTB's and a bunch of Established ones. Goyf Sligh, AfFOWnity, Stax, Threshold, Dredge, Vial Goblin, and so on. Very interesting tournament because of this. A real stresstest for my deck.

Here is my full list. As I said in my previous post I splashed black for (a bit of) removal.

//LAND (20)//
6x Island
2x Swamp
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Polluted Delta

//CREATURES (8)//
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Trinket Mage

//SPELLS (32)//
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Stifle
2x Trickbind
4x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining top
3x Diabolic Edict

//SIDEBOARD (15)//
4x Pithing Needle
4x Engineered Plague
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Damnation

This list got me place 20 of 44 this sunday.

MU:
//1st Game//
0-2
Played against a "not so" seasoned player running Affinity splashed with black red and green. Lost due to my own stupid mistakes. Lost both games because I was so honest to take damage from his Disciple's without him announcing (you may deal...), and I should have gotten a Judge close when he fucked up the phases more than once (untapping after draw and such, you know those players...). I also had to tell him how FoW worked... So I lost this one due to my own honesty. This game has cost me my prize (Pos 16 and up). Would I have won this I would have gotten a prize... I will never be honest again in a sanctioned tournament! ><

//2nd Game//
2-1
Played against some random blue/green T2-ish deck. Tried to beat me to smithereens by playing those aura's with both blue and green effects together with blue/green small critters (didn't see a Jitte at all, why I asked him, he asked me what a Jitte was). He caught me offguard the second game swarming my defence with a bit too much critters for me to handle. Although he ran blue in the deck he didn't counter at all. Beat him to death with Mishra's the first game, the second I lost by swarm, 3rd I won due to a resolved nought early in the game.

//game 3//
2-0
Played against leyline/helm of obedience. First game I won by beating him to death with Mishra's. He did get his helm/leyline combo, but a turn too late. Mishra's ftw! Second game I resolved a turn 3 nought. Only thing he had was 4 black mana and a leyline. He didn't draw removal after my nought resolve so he scooped before passing the turn again. Done in less than 10 minutes (Personal win this one, it made my whole tournament meaningfull. Always nice to beat someone senseless with Mishra's and countering everything he tries, when he announces before the game in such a way everyone could hear he's totally gonna win because my skills suck... He will think again when he meets me at another tournament in the future, muhahaha! High trees fall hard or sumtin :) ).

//Game 4//
2-0
Goyf Sligh. Was I very lucky she drew the mana she couldn't use? Only things I saw in both games were BoP and a Goyf (which I diabolic-ed as soon as she passed the turn or countertopped on cast) and i think one Krosan on a top. Mishra's ftw again. They had already beat my opposition senseless the whole day and stayed on that job very well. Will not take those out easily :). Countertop made a difference too here. First game won by beating her senseless with a Trinket Mage (used to fetch a top) and a Mishra (to our amusement, she couldn't do anything but laugh about it). A late resolve of nought in the 2nd game made her scoop. She must have had the MWS shuffler enabled hehe. Or is it the way I devide decks after shuffle? Noone knows..

//Game 5//
1-2
Played against another Affinity deck, this time splashed with blue, green and black. While I was able to win the first game again due to an early stifled nought, things began to become clear to me now. In this match I finaly realised what was wrong with my build. I got swarmed twice. Swarms I couldn't handle with explosives on 2 or diabolic's. Tried to pin down modular by siding in Needles the 3rd try, but it only got me some more time struggling against his swarm. Due to this loss and the first game loss (both affinity decks) I realised my SB isn't what it should be. It lacked the ability to stop swarms with different creaturetypes (Engineered Plague doesn't do the trick against affinity because all those decks have at least 3 different kinds of creature subtypes in general. Engineered Explosives on 2 max doesn't make an affinity player sweat, and my only Damnation got countered on play... Weakness exposed).

//Game 6//
1-2
Played against a deck I can't place. Played white/blue and a splash of black if i'm right, with meddling mage's, some counter, crucible for fetch cycle, Mishra, and some other stuff (mostly hate and counter, anti arti-ench build as it seemed, no large beaters or fast combo's as far as I could discover). Got him very fast on the first try, resolving a turn 2 nought did the trick. As a result I only saw 3 Taiga's which gave him an advantage. He was able to side quite well, while I had to gamble. His side was obviously better then mine, so lost the second and third try quite fast.

My end score after 8 hours of playing was 3-3-0. Not bad for my first tournament in 14 years :)

-----------------

Already thinking about what to change. I already revised the sidedeck to the following list:

//NEW SB//
4x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Propaganda
3x Engineered Explosives

(-4 Engineered Plague, -1 Damnation, +4 Propaganda, +1 Engineered Explosives)

Propaganda in in stead of Engineered Plague because of it's ability to handle swarms independent on creature type. 4 of since I want to have it asap. It also has better synergy with the rest of my build. Blue in stead of black, and 3cc (counterbalance) made the choice easy. Engineered Explosives up because for yesterday I borrowed em from a friend to test them in SB. Like em lots, so went trading inbetween games and got 4x EE.

Someone suggested to run Dark Confidant Maindeck. First thing I will test on MWS. But don't realy like him so not sure on if I will try that.

What do you guys think? Can you see other weaknesses in my build, or should my revised SB beat my bane, the swarm?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Mok.

Poron

10-06-2008, 07:38 AM

imho the way is Ubr without Counterbalance.

black:
4 Duress
4 Dark Confidant

red
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fling

the deck:
2 EE
4 Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage
4 Stifle
2 Trickbind
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Meekstone (to lock him and keep beating with Confidan/Trinket while Flining your PD)
etc.

Mokaod

10-06-2008, 12:03 PM

imho the way is Ubr without Counterbalance.

Been there, done that :)

In my opinion, 3 or more colors slow you down.

Have tried 3 coloring, mono coloring, with and without countertop, but this build seems more viable in my meta. A lot of players play B2B, and since i'm running basic for colored that didn't hurt me. As soon as you play 3 or more colors in this deck you need duals. Duals are easily dealt with in my meta, hence my choice for this build.

Afaik the SB was my real problem. Engineered plague not being enough to stop swarms (not to speak about a one of Damnation...) was the problem I had. Had no probs against combo or creature low decks, but swarm made me bleed. Your build doesn't take this in account afaik. Also, what is the manabase you want to play in this? Enough room for waste/mishra x4?

Anyways, I will try how your build worx on MWS, see what is the difference in speed and function. Tnx for the tips!

Mokaod

12-14-2008, 05:35 AM

Just as a sidenote, as you can see in my sig i trashed above build and run Ur dreadstill now. This deck just wasn't up for the challenge. The deck I have now is more potent and exploding because of red splice, and already has proven it works quite well (since I copied the decklist from a tournament winner that shouldnt be a problem). Weird I never tried the r splash before. It realy puts the deck in 2nd gear compared to the black splice.

And i'm very sorry, but Counter/Top is still in there... ;)

Grrrrrrrr Mok.

thefreakaccident

02-18-2009, 02:17 PM

YEAH NECRO!!!!

Anyways... I have been fiddling around with some of my old creations, and have found that simplicity can often hold the key... anyways, here is a pretty basic list that has been doing pretty well for me as of late (MWS mostly):

lands//18
4 wasteland
4 tundra
4 underground sea
3 polluted delta
3 flooded strand

creatures//12
4 dark confidant
4 phyrexian dreadnought
4 meddling mage

spells//30
4 vindicate
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 force of will
4 daze
4 stifle
2 trickbind

Vindicate has been extremely solid, as it helps support the LD plan, and als provides the utility that the deck once lacked (dealing w/ troublesome non-creature permanents, while still upping the creature kill count)...

The deck plays mostly like a Hanni-Fish/Thrash love child w/ the added bonus of the occasional dreadnought.

Since I see ichorid so much nowadays (is it just me, as I never hear people talking about it on here anymore?)... I am able to sometimes just use a dreadnought to kill their bridges.

Anyways, it is rare that I have a dreadnought w/ no stifle effect, which means he is rarely dead... but a stifle effect is good by itself when I see them w/out nought, so it usually works out for me w/ the 8 cantrip/DC draw engine.

I have been debating mage, as he is weak at 2/2... but he wins games just by himself most of the time chanting the few cards they can cast, and then just pounding them down...

Anyways, suggestions/comments on the above list are welcome and appreciated!

jazzykat

02-18-2009, 05:12 PM

ZOMG that is what I was thinking to do and built something very similar 2 weeks ago after i saw the vindication dreadstill list.

I came to the same conclusion as you did, MM is totally rad and stops all manner of shennigins, while occaisionally being the weak sauce. Having 8 bodies in the deck besides the noughts also allows you to side out all your dreadnoughts and be some type of UWB fish with the appropriate hate cards. It's even funnier though when there hate is often dead again as there are no more dreadnoughts and they are getting 2/x'ed to death.

BreathWeapon

02-18-2009, 05:55 PM

thefreakaccident

02-19-2009, 02:25 PM

I've ran similar configurations in U/w/b Tombstalker, Vindicate is the shit because it's both Counterbalance and Tarmogoyf removal that supliments your land destruction, it's like Team America with Dreadnought instead of Tarmogoyf.

And the fact that your creature kill is more versatile, and that you have slightly more disruption with a slower clock... although occasionally, your clock can be ridiculous w/ a dreadnought opener.

Dark confidant has really been the hero of the story though, as he keeps the disruption coming at a rate they usually cannot keep with (at least when the LD comes in)...

I hope to do more testing, but I might get a real live tournament try before any of that... trying to go this saturday, wish me luck!

Poron

02-19-2009, 11:09 PM