[Brainstorming] Best Shell for Dreadnought

[Eldariel]

Well, billion threads on Dreadnought, all different approaches. It seems like the card creates a huge amount of interest, so there's a call for a thread to discuss the builds in (the Community-thread seems more like a thread for discussing the ramifications of the unbannings). Maybe the card isn't as horrible as I find it to be, maybe there's a good deck to be built around it. I find it totally pointless to flood the forum with a billion different Dreadnought-decks so I figured one thread to discuss the ways to use the card would be more beneficial and headache-saving.

First, for those not informed, Phyrexian Dreadnought had its errata removed; its drawback was changed back into triggered ability from replacement effect, so Stifles and the like allow you to get it without the drawback, and you can do things in response to the CiPT.


With the obvious nonsense out of the way, the obvious ways to actually use the card:
-Base-blue built around Stifling/Trickbinding the comes-into-play ability and probably using counter backup to ensure that it doesn't just eat Swords to Goblin Tinkerer/Tin Street Hooligan the very next turn.
-Something with red to do things with Pandemonium, Fling and the like. Doesn't sound very impressive, but it has to be mentioned anyways. It just begs the question: "Why aren't you just playing Affinity?"


I think the obvious shell for the deck starts with the following cards:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

which naturally leads into:
4 Counterbalance
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hunted Horror
2-4 Trickbind
4 Trinket Mage
1 Despotic Scepter?
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm


or something to that effect. Obviously, since the deck doesn't win that fast, it'll need some control-elements and those control-elements help to protect the actual win cards too, so we're probably talking Fish-shell with the Dreadnoughts and possibly other Vialable, Stifleable critters (horror being the cheapest) in. The deck looks to have some promise, although it's probably in no way broken as we're talking about a mere creature still, and an artifact creature at that. Anyway, feel free to discuss, keeping it here will at least allow us to avoid filling the board with a billion 'Dreadnought this and Dreadnought that'.decs while also making following the tech easy.

[raharu]

I say no vial, no horror, no scepter. They're just bad. Also, why not this instead for black/blue.

Duress X4
Hymn to tourach X4
Unmask X4

Counterspell X4
Force X4
Trickbind X4
Stifle X2
Perilous research X?? (maybe not)

Counterbalance X2-4
SDT X2-4

[Eldariel]

Well, throwing 34 non-board control cards together with 4 sitiuational threats and calling it a deck sounds a bit suspect. Duress is a good card, but Hymn seems a bit out there already. Simply though, the deck needs more threats since you just can't expect to draw a 4-of fast enough not to die, especially when you can't stop any resolved threat. It also needs some ways to remove permanents.

The reason I posted the shell I did was that Trinket Mage was already in so Despotic Scepter to make Hunted Horror playable without Stifle/Trickbind is natural, and Vial allows you to not only make Horrors EOT but also gives you the trick to 'stifle' Dreadnought with another Dreadnought. Simply, they seemed synergistic and keep your curve low so Counterbalance can more reliably handle Swords. No, the build isn't optimized, heck, it was just the 'natural' evolution in my head, but the cards aren't chosen at random either. Mmm, and since we end up running anywhere from 4 to 8 Stifle-effects, it seems like the deck could benefit a lot from Wasteland.

[raharu]

Oh wow, that was 34 cards... Crap. the hymn could come out (probably should), but unmask and duress are there to whack any hate aimed at the dreadnought, and control what spells they play. The counters are there for the same reason. You can kill turn 4. why not stop them from stopping you while you're at it? The deck should be fast, not control oriented. The turn 4 kill is there. It should happen. Maybe more tutors? I like white for Enlightened tutor.

[Machinus]

I think the only way this deck works is with mask.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I think something like Vial Horror would be best; a fish deck full of internal synergy.

I say no vial, no horror, no scepter. They're just bad. Also, why not this instead for black/blue.

Duress X4
Hymn to tourach X4
Unmask X4

Counterspell X4
Force X4
Trickbind X4
Stifle X2
Perilous research X?? (maybe not)

Counterbalance X2-4
SDT X2-4
What? You think Æther Vial is bad and Perilous Research isn't? Are you joking?

[URABAHN]

I don't think the Stifle builds are the way to go. It's just too obvious and I think we need to dig deeper for ways to use :1: mana 12/12 creatures that don't hang around.

[raharu]

1U for a draw 2, at the price of a land when you go off. Not too terible, but i think that night's whisper has a place here maybe.

Vial is not "bad", it just doesn't go here in my opinion.

[Eldariel]

Oh wow, that was 34 cards... Crap. the hymn could come out (probably should), but unmask and duress are there to whack any hate aimed at the dreadnought, and control what spells they play. The counters are there for the same reason. You can kill turn 4. why not stop them from stopping you while you're at it? The deck should be fast, not control oriented. The turn 4 kill is there. It should happen. Maybe more tutors? I like white for Enlightened tutor.

You can kill turn 4 with a godhand. That's incredibly slow and requires drawing multiple specific cards and still have others you can't tutor for. No, you can't rely on winning by drawing or topdecking it, hence the inclusion of other threats, Vial to circumvent their drawbacks, Trinket Mage as an added tutor that also provides card advantage, et cetera. Enlightened Tutor is pure card disadvantage and only searches for Dreadnought or Top/Balance pieces while requiring an added colour, it might be alright, but it's definitely nothing to get excited about. If you play it, its main function is to get Top/Balance going rather than to find Dreadnoughts. That's already telling, although it'll help make those double-Dreadnought/Vial hands happen. It just doesn't look like a deck that even has the option of trying for a speed kill. Killing two turns after your 'combo' goes off just doesn't bode well for anything.

Machinus: I'm tempted to agree, but I think it's interesting enough a thought exercise to pursue at least to some degree and see where it ends up at.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

1U for a draw 2, at the price of a land when you go off. Not too terrible, but i think that night's whisper has a place here maybe..It is terrible, you are netting no cards at the cost of tempo. Why would you play that when you could play Dark Confidant instead?
Vial is not "bad", it just doesn't go here in my opinion.Why not? Best way it could play out results in a turn two uncounterable Dreadnought.

Here could be a creature base;
Dark Confidant
Vial Horror
Phyrexian Dreadnought
Gilded Drake if they reword its comes into play ability

Add some Stifles, styluses, Despotic Scepters and other fishy stuff and you have a deck.

[nitewolf9]

What about a deck that abuses greater good and dreadnought? It could include something like academy ruins as well to have a recurring draw-9 engine. I guess getting greater good into play would be the issue there, but maybe some kind of a control deck shell would work. Or even a combo deck that could generate insane amounts of storm. Once again though, getting a 4cc enchantment into play is the issue. I like the idea of a g/u control deck with a combo finish.

[raharu]

I think that this deck has the potential to be fast as Jesus, and I am trying to go that way. At first glance, Vial is not helping that, but it could.

Turn one: land, Mox, vial, go
Turn two: land, dreadnought, vial dreadnought, stifle both

Unrealistic? You can bet your ass. Insane when it happens? Oh yeah:cool:

[Sanguine Voyeur]

What about a deck that abuses greater good and dreadnought? It could include something like academy ruins as well to have a recurring draw-9 engine. I guess getting greater good into play would be the issue there, but maybe some kind of a control deck shell would work. Or even a combo deck that could generate insane amounts of storm. Once again though, getting a 4cc enchantment into play is the issue. I like the idea of a g/u control deck with a combo finish.It's about time some body came up with something original. If they "fix" Lotus Vale that could be used for an early Greater Good.

[raharu]

Oh wow that would be crazy... you could get that off turn 2 (moxened up a little though...). But if i was to take this deck in a slower, more control oriented direction, i would think about Trickbind + Isochron Scepter. It just looks good in the long game, and is one more thing they have to take out with artifact removal.

EDIT: just a thought... is this WoTC trying to make a hulk flash??? Are we missing something insane here that they see?? I hope not, but it's possible. They've looked at Legacy a lot more that usual, and it's freaking me out a bit...

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Oh wow that would be crazy... you could get that off turn 2 (moxened up a little though...). But if i was to take this deck in a slower, more control oriented direction, i would think about Trickbind + Isochron Scepter. It just looks good in the long game, and is one more thing they have to take out with artifact removal.If it's a combo deck, why would you want to go the long game? Why would you play Isochron Scepter in the first place?

[emidln]

With a Ubr build I've had multiple turn 3 kills. Turn 1 land, turn 2 land, Dreadnought + Stifle, turn 3 attack, fling (w/force backup at the time), gg.

[raharu]

If it's a combo deck, why would you want to go the long game? Why would you play Isochron Scepter in the first place?

I would like it to be a fast deck, but every time I bring it up, the cards that I think would go in to make it faster, someone reams me for it and says the deck is slow. The scepter is there to repeatedly abuse Trickbind. The dreadnoughts, of course, but then you could use horrors and other creatures/ permanents with CiP triggers effectively too.

Emidln, what's your list. I'm drawn to it.

[Pinder]

What about a deck that abuses greater good and dreadnought?

I think the best way to abuse Dreadnaught is probably something along those lines, a massive sac effect in response to the abilty. Unfortunately, the only thing I can think of offhand would be Altar of Dementia or possibly Diamond Valley, but neither of those do anything terribly impressive.

Also worth noting is that due to it's diminuitive casting cost, it fits certain criteria for certain cards. Trinket Mage has already been brought up, and I think Unearth could be good, too. Imagine with Greater Good, play it, sac it, then Unearth it, and sca it again. The same applies to Altar of Dementia. Is there any other cards that could possibly abuse Dreadnought's low mana cost?

Also along those lines, stealing they PD they worked so hard to get into play with a Threads of Disloyalty would be the fucking tech.

[raharu]

Not quite what Pinder is talking about, but has anyone tried this in a threshold deck? 2 Dazes and 2 Ttifles into 4 Trickbinds and cut whatever the random thresh-fattie is (Fledgling Dragon, Mystic Enforcer, Korosan Beast if it's ever run anymore) for dreadnought. Looks sexy. Not really the brightest idea, but threshold already has room for 2 MD Stifles anyway. It's not that far off.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Greater Good + Phyrexian Dreadnought + mana = Possibly a good deck

The mana could even be something like SI, Culling the Weak, free creatures, petal, etc.

[raharu]

I like alter of dementia personally, but I've always had a fetish for Dimir decks, so maybe that's personal bias. Fling looks sexy with PD for sure, but it hasn't stuck with everyone else yet, so I'll leave that alone for now...

[Pinder]

Greater Good + Phyrexian Dreadnought + mana = Possibly a good deck

The mana could even be something like SI, Culling the Weak, free creatures, petal, etc.

I agree that this is probably the best idea that's come along so far. Any word on whether or not they'll uneratta Lotus Vale in a similar fashion? Because then first turn Mox/Petal + Lotus Vale -> Greater Good would be some hot tech.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

I agree that this is probably the best idea that's come along so far. Any word on whether or not they'll uneratta Lotus Vale in a similar fashion? Because then first turn Mox/Petal + Lotus Vale -> Greater Good would be some hot tech.I doubut they will "fix" it. Even if they do, it won't be legal for too long.

[C.P.]

I was thinking something like Ubw trinket fish, with 1 or 2 dreadnoughts that can be fetched when you need a fat. I just don't see how building around a 2 mana, 2 card targetable 12/12 is very good.

[SillyMetalGAT]

Im gunna go out on a limb and say in Faerie Stompy maybe? I mean, you run Trinket Mages, counter backup, why not? Even as just a one-of and running some Stifles/Trickbinds maindeck to shore up your combo MUs.

Just a thought.

EDIT: I know Chalice isn't good with PD, but I dunno the deck does play Pithing Needle....

[Hubris]

Has anybody else thought about using Stifle/Dreadnought in a more traditional control shell? It would give the control deck a fast win condition that can come online as early as turn 2, or you can sit back, playing a typical control game until you have both pieces in hand and are ready to win. To me this seem just what Legacy control has been asking for, and it’s an additional bonus that one of the two win pieces fits seamlessly into a control strategy.

Anyway, more food for thought,

H

[GreenOne]

We can use Dreadnought in a Sutured Ghoul shell instead of the 13/13. The UB version already plays Mystical Tutor, so we have just to find the place for some stifles.

Just food for thought.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

We can use Dreadnought in a Sutured Ghoul shell instead of the 13/13. The UB version already plays Mystical Tutor, so we have just to find the place for some stifles.

Just food for thought.

That's the first idea I've heard that didn't sound awful. I can see that working. And running two of each gives you some Extirpate resistance.

[Happy Gilmore]

Well, billion threads on Dreadnought, all different approaches. It seems like the card creates a huge amount of interest, so there's a call for a thread to discuss the builds in (the Community-thread seems more like a thread for discussing the ramifications of the unbannings). Maybe the card isn't as horrible as I find it to be, maybe there's a good deck to be built around it. I find it totally pointless to flood the forum with a billion different Dreadnought-decks so I figured one thread to discuss the ways to use the card would be more beneficial and headache-saving.

First, for those not informed, Phyrexian Dreadnought had its errata removed; its drawback was changed back into triggered ability from replacement effect, so Stifles and the like allow you to get it without the drawback, and you can do things in response to the CiPT.


With the obvious nonsense out of the way, the obvious ways to actually use the card:
-Base-blue built around Stifling/Trickbinding the comes-into-play ability and probably using counter backup to ensure that it doesn't just eat Swords to Goblin Tinkerer/Tin Street Hooligan the very next turn.
-Something with red to do things with Pandemonium, Fling and the like. Doesn't sound very impressive, but it has to be mentioned anyways. It just begs the question: "Why aren't you just playing Affinity?"


I think the obvious shell for the deck starts with the following cards:
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Stifle
4 Aether Vial

which naturally leads into:
4 Counterbalance
3-4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Hunted Horror
2-4 Trickbind
4 Trinket Mage
1 Despotic Scepter?
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm


or something to that effect. Obviously, since the deck doesn't win that fast, it'll need some control-elements and those control-elements help to protect the actual win cards too, so we're probably talking Fish-shell with the Dreadnoughts and possibly other Vialable, Stifleable critters (horror being the cheapest) in. The deck looks to have some promise, although it's probably in no way broken as we're talking about a mere creature still, and an artifact creature at that. Anyway, feel free to discuss, keeping it here will at least allow us to avoid filling the board with a billion 'Dreadnought this and Dreadnought that'.decs while also making following the tech easy.

lol, I completely forgot about Horror. I guess you very well could run him since your already running so many stifle effects.

[Mijorre]

Run it in Polar Express (the u/b rean idea). It has blue for stifles anyway and this is a 12/12 you can dump in the yard for your ghoul. Woot for utility.
Currently PE generally runs Kraken / some '13/13' / denizen of the deep. I can see krakens being kicked for Dreads.

And yes, the deckbuilding-options seem endless.

[Tacosnape]

I think that this deck has the potential to be fast as Jesus, and I am trying to go that way. At first glance, Vial is not helping that, but it could.

Turn one: land, Mox, vial, go
Turn two: land, dreadnought, vial dreadnought, stifle both

Unrealistic? You can bet your ass. Insane when it happens? Oh yeah:cool:

Isn't that a little overcomplicated?

Like, I'm thinking half of you don't realize you can just go:

Turn one: Land, Vial, go.
Turn two: Land (Or not), Play Dreadnought A, Vial out Dreadnought B in response to Dreadnought A's trigger, sacrifice Dreadnought A to Dreadnought B's trigger, choose not to sacrifice on Dreadnought A's trigger as its no longer in play. Dreadnought with no Stifle. Whee!

Therefore all you need here is a Vial and two Dreadnoughts.

[outsideangel]

Therefore all you need here is a Vial and two Dreadnoughts.

Man, three card combos that don't win the game sure are awesome!

...wait...not awesome...that other thing...you know that thing...terrible!

I get those two mixed up all the time.

[rufus]

Here's a list with the goal to combo out off of Greater Good using Storm Entity. Because of the vulnerability to disruption, this is more of a casual strength deck although it's got serious turn 2/turn 3 kill potential. The black green analogue is likely to be stronger.

Greater Good
Berserk

Phyrexian Dreadnought
Phyrexian Soulgorger
Ravaging Riftwurm
Storm Entity

Orcish Lumberjack
Tinder Wall
Elvish Spirit Guide
Simian Spirit Guide
Rite of Flame

Taiga
Stomping Ground
Wooded Foothills
Forest

[Rabbi Dan]

The Dreadnought + Stifle combo could be fit into Faerie Stompy pretty easily since it already runs 4x Trinket Mages. I don't know if this is a good idea, and it seems like a Win-More thing for that deck, but there it is.

[Finn]

Except that Fairie Stompy likes Chalice set for 1.

EDIT: more ideas...if you can turn it into a cleric, it can be sent at the opponent Fling style with Starlit Sanctum.

Carrion could be used to make 12 0/1 phuckers. Oh well.

You could Vial in a Dracoplasm (or another Dreadnought).

[Happy Gilmore]

With so many different Dreadnought threads I think I'll go ahead and consolidate some of the ideas. Here are two shells I'm looking into (especially the first one):

UW control Shell

4 Trinket Mage
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

4 FoW
4 Stifle
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Top
2 Trickbind
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 EE
1 Crypt
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Propaganda
1 Pithing Needle


4 Flooded Strand
3 Delta
4 Tundra
1 Plains
1 Seat of Synod
4 Island
2 Academy Ruins

SB:
2x EE
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Aura of Silence
4x Meddling Mage
4x Silver Knight
2x Propaganda
1x Counterbalance


BGW Combo Shell

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Wall of Roots
4 Dark Confidant

4 Greater Good

3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Unearth


2 Tendrils of Agony
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Explosives

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
4 Forest
4 Windswept Heath

[raharu]

@ tacosnape: thanks, I get overstimulated some times and get a little crazy. I want to see this deck concept use Dracoplasam. It looks sexy

[GreenOne]

We can use Dreadnought in a Sutured Ghoul shell instead of the 13/13. The UB version already plays Mystical Tutor, so we have just to find the place for some stifles.


Forgot to say that stifle in that deck can be quite good on himself helping to protect the combo (stifling Tormod or Grunt trigger). Looks better than stifling lands. :wink:

An approximate decklist, just to make a rough idea:

// Lands
1 [OD] Island (2)
3 [RAV] Watery Grave
2 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
Mana:
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal

Protection:
2 [7E] Duress
4 [AL] Force of Will

Search:
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [IA] Brainstorm

Combo:
1 [US] Exhume
3 [TE] Reanimate
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [MI] Shallow Grave

Combo/protection
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant (the deck has now a smoother curve)
SB: 3 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor

[Happy Gilmore]

Forgot to say that stifle in that deck can be quite good on himself helping to protect the combo (stifling Tormod or Grunt trigger). Looks better than stifling lands. :wink:

An approximate decklist, just to make a rough idea:

// Lands
1 [OD] Island (2)
3 [RAV] Watery Grave
2 [MM] Swamp (4)
4 [u] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
1 [JU] Sutured Ghoul
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
Mana:
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TE] Lotus Petal

Protection:
2 [7E] Duress
4 [AL] Force of Will

Search:
4 [AL] Lim-Dul's Vault
4 [IA] Brainstorm

Combo:
1 [US] Exhume
3 [TE] Reanimate
4 [OD] Buried Alive
4 [MI] Shallow Grave

Combo/protection
3 [SC] Stifle

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant (the deck has now a smoother curve)
SB: 3 [NE] Massacre
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor


That list only runs 15 Blue spells to pitch to Force, I would probably go ahead and cut them for 2x Duress, 1x Stifle, 1x Trickbind?

[GreenOne]

That list only runs 15 Blue spells to pitch to Force, I would probably go ahead and cut them for 2x Duress, 1x Stifle, 1x Trickbind?

I noticed that too, but i found that force was great in matches. I decided to raise the blue count to 16 (i know, it's the barely minimum)
Right now i'm testing:
-4 Dark rit (that thing can really accelerate only Buried Alive)
+1 island
+1 watery grave
+1 stifle
+1 duress

that turns the deck in a more combo-control deck with 11 MD protection and a bit more stable manabase.

Maybe considering Mystical Tutor? Chrome moxes as an additional accelerant (cutting lands)?

[Tacosnape]

Man, three card combos that don't win the game sure are awesome!

...wait...not awesome...that other thing...you know that thing...terrible!

I get those two mixed up all the time.

Don't be an ass. I didn't for a minute suggest it was -good-, merely better than the more complicated version listed above. Besides, all the pieces of that are fetchable via Trinket Mage. If you ask me, Phyrexian Dreadnought won't make much of an impact on the format at all unless a better card for it has been printed.


EDIT: more ideas...if you can turn it into a cleric, it can be sent at the opponent Fling style with Starlit Sanctum.


The day somebody Starlit Sanctums a Clericed Dreadnought at me, I'm selling my decks.

So anyway, here's my janky idea for it.

4 Taiga
4 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain

4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Pandemonium
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor

4 Birds of Paradise
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
3 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
4 Eternal Witness
1 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Flametongue Kavu
3 Deranged Hermit
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 Stonecloaker

I'm sure this list can be tuned.

The obvious combo here is getting a Survival and Pandemonium out and playing Dreadnought, Stonecloaker (Flash, bounce the Dreadnought), and Dreadnought again, and winning.

Secondarily, it can go bonkers with the Pandemonium / Deranged Hermit combo, or just win by being a normal insane RGW Survival deck and crushing people with Kavus and Deranged Hermits.

[sammiel]

the best shell for dreadnought is in someone else's binder.

hiyooo

[raharu]

Thresh? All you would have to do is make room for the trickbinds or stifles (since you want to give them a 2 for 1), and some builds already have stifle MD. Maybe red thresh for fling?

[BreathWeapon]

Using Aether Vial as a pseudo Illusionary Mask in a Vengeur Mask style deck is actually a really good idea, since you can build around Enlightened Tutor for either the Aether Vial and Dreadnoughts, Survival of the Fittest -> Volrath's Shapeshifter -> Dreadnoughts, Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives and Pithing Needle etc. with Volrath's Shapeshifter and Stifle allowing the Dreadnoughts to be cast from hand. With Stifle increasing the blue count, ensuring the combo match up and enabling Dreadnoughts the deck should be dense enough to run on just Dreadnoughts while still being able to use Survival for Spore Frog lock, Gigapede, Tarmogoyf, Jotun Grunts (good for cleaning up the discard pile with Volrath's Shapeshifters) etc. as plan B.

SurVial is relatively strong as it is, but with Dreadnought it's certainly more deadly and you get auxillery threats in Vial +2 Dreadnoughts and Stifle +1 Dreadnought.

[Happy Gilmore]

So I took the UW control variant to my local Legacy tournament going 2-1-1. I should have been 3-0-1 but I played the wrong spell for the loss. One thing I realized was that there were too many things going on all at once, Scepter was neat but I think unnecessary, I think the Ghostly Prison/Propaganda slot is debatable, although I never did encounter goblins.

this is the list I ran, code name: Judge Dread

2 Dreadnought
4 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 StP
4 FoW
3 Serum Visions
3 Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Trickbind
1 EE
1 Pithing Needle
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Crypt

1 Seat of Synod
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Delta
4 Island
1 Plains

SB:
4 Silver Knight
4 Orim's Chant
4 BEB
1 Scepter
1 Ghostly Prison
1 EE



And yes I am well aware it is 62 cards. Somehow when I put it together I only added two FoW and that threw me off. Anyway, it explains somewhat why the mana consistency was off.

v.2

3 Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 StP
4 FoW
4 Serum Visions
3 Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Trickbind
1 Engineered Plague
1 EE
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crypt


1 Seat of Synod
2 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
3 Underground Sea


SB:
4x Dark Confidant
2x Engineered Plague
1x Aether Vial
1x EE
3x Duress
1x Threads of Disloyalty
1x Control Magic
2x Aura of Silence
1x Seal of Cleansing

With 4x Stifle, 4x Fow, 3x Counterbalance and 2x Trickbind I think I have enough spells against combo. Daze is great but I found it lacking most of the time.

[Isamaru]

I say no vial, no horror, no scepter. They're just bad. Also, why not this instead for black/blue.

Duress X4
Hymn to tourach X4
Unmask X4

Counterspell X4
Force X4
Trickbind X4
Stifle X2
Perilous research X?? (maybe not)

Counterbalance X2-4
SDT X2-4

I agree on the no horror, but it that [including 1 scepter and 4 horror] is an interesting take on the dreadnought (or a trinket-rape of VH, another way to look at it).

I do, however, believe Vial is necessary (2x Dreadnought + Vial lets you get one into play). Here is my take on Dreadnought:
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?p=146205#post146205

Oh, and Counterbalance shell is really not needed, in my opinion. Perilous Research is good, but only if you also include Sage of Epityr, which would instead give you access to Cabal Therapy. (Sorry that it seems I put that card in everything, but Sage is stronger than he looks :))

[BreathWeapon]

I saw some people running Mother of Runs in a Fish esq list, and that card looked awesome at being able to protect the Dreadnought from removal while being an unremovable wall in the mean time.

[Maveric78f]

Following the very naive idea of stifling cheap big creatures, we could use the very good tutors that are the transmute spells :

Tutors :
4*dizzy spell
4*dimir infiltrator or muddle the mixture or Lim-Dul's Vault

Counterspells :
4*daze
4*FoW
4*Stifle
4*Trickbind

Draw :
4*Brainstorm
4*Dark Confidant

Creatures :
4*Dreadnought
4*Hunted Horror

Tutorable Protection :
1*Robe of mirrors
1*Lightning greaves

Lands...

[raharu]

Diplomatic Immunity doesn't look bad here, and in the above list, it's tutorable. Also, if you want to run Dimir Infiltrator, why not SoFI? Since it looks like everyone wants PD in a control deck, why not have another threat(ish?)? It's a draw engine if you get it going, and it's not that bad all by it's lonesome (if you have another creature to carry it, duh). About what I said about vial... Yeah, I tend to think a little too fast... Yeah.

[blacklotus3636]

All I can say about dreadnought is wow. Just when you thought the format was drifting more and more towards a combo dominated era aggressive decks are given a tool with which to strike back at thier enemies. Dreadnought's new wording is so good that it essentially raises the power level of every aggro deck. I don't think building a "dreadnought deck" is the answer. Instead I think he is just a new card that pretty much all aggro decks should be trying to abuse. He is obviously very abuseable in affinity because they already run blue so they could run stifle(which accidentally also helps immensely with the decks poor combo matchup) and he's an artifact. Hell you could even run him in goblins with fling and the best part is the deck already runs aether vial so you could play a dreadnought and then vial another one in for a 12/12 trampler on turn 2. Plus fling on its own isn't too bad when used on a piledriver. I suppose you could even run a control deck with these guys as your win condition which is what people seem to be doing here but time will tell whether or not those decks are fast enough and/or consistent at doing what they need to do in order to make them tier 1. Even if that doesn't happen though dreadnought will be a force to be reckoned with as long as it is legal in this format

[Jak]

All I can say about dreadnought is wow. Just when you thought the format was drifting more and more towards a combo dominated era aggressive decks are given a tool with which to strike back at thier enemies. Dreadnought's new wording is so good that it essentially raises the power level of every aggro deck. I don't think building a "dreadnought deck" is the answer. Instead I think he is just a new card that pretty much all aggro decks should be trying to abuse. He is obviously very abuseable in affinity because they already run blue so they could run stifle(which accidentally also helps immensely with the decks poor combo matchup) and he's an artifact. Hell you could even run him in goblins with fling and the best part is the deck already runs aether vial so you could play a dreadnought and then vial another one in for a 12/12 trampler on turn 2. Plus fling on its own isn't too bad when used on a piledriver. I suppose you could even run a control deck with these guys as your win condition which is what people seem to be doing here but time will tell whether or not those decks are fast enough and/or consistent at doing what they need to do in order to make them tier 1. Even if that doesn't happen though dreadnought will be a force to be reckoned with as long as it is legal in this format

You are over reacting. Every aggro deck? Seriously, this card would suck in goblins. I think this will only see play in control decks and decks which are built around him. I also think he would be great in Polar Express.

[GreenOne]

You are over reacting. Every aggro deck? Seriously, this card would suck in goblins. I think this will only see play in control decks and decks which are built around him. I also think he would be great in Polar Express.

Yeah, after some testing, the Polar Express shell is having quite good results. You can look it up there:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6332

[ParkerLewis]

Why not considering Serum Powder ? It seems like the perfect deck to put it in, as there is no card you desperately need with the combo that you could'nt afford to lose with the Serum Powder (well, except the dreadnought himself, but that's precisely the card you're searching for).

As a mono-u deck, this is how i would go :

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [TSP] Academy Ruins
9 [OV] Island

// Creatures
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [DS] Serum Powder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze
3 [TSP] Trickbind
3 [SH] Mana Leak
1 [DS] Echoing Truth
3 [MI] Merchant Scroll

The deck pretty much explains himself. I don't feel the need for more than 2 Trinket Mages given the serum powders and brainstorms. And they're more here "just in case", or by lack of a better idea atm.

There is one Echoing truth to be fetched with Merchant Scrolls if you need it game 1. Otherwise, you can just use them to get an additional counter.
Scrolls were chosen over Mystical Tutors because they cost 2 - thus you can go get that Echoing Truth when you're under a Chalice @ 1. Plus, you don't lose the next draw.

The high number of stifles & trickbinds is i think justified because :
-well, you do need one after all (that alone justifies at least 5 of them MD)
-even the second one is rarely a dead draw no matter the matchup : be it any storm combo, annihilating a fetch, countering a LED effect (juicy ! Edit : ok, it doesn't work :/ sorry), countering a tin street hooligan's effect (or a belcher...)...

You don't particularly fear StP. You have a lot of counters, and anyway giving you +12 life often gives you quite enough time to recover and find another dreadnought to replace the one you've lost.

On the other hand, a krosan grip can be quite bad as it's uncounterable ; thus the academy ruins are here to get the dreadnought back.

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 4 [UD] Powder Keg


The SB in particular is quite vague at that point (4 slots are free...).
Additional Echoing truth are necessary for everything that could get through the counter wall (chalice, a resolved etw, trinisphere).
A second bounce effect at 3cc would probably be a good idea.

[zulander]

You can't stifle/trickbind LED's. They're mana abilities.

[fury]

also for those decks i'd consider an eater of days...dunno if you can stifle the turn ability but its another huge arti-creature for pretty cheap

[WiLdFiRe]

I think that mono-blue list is going about it the wrong way. My mate and I built a dreadnought list for Australian Legacy Nationals and both went 3-1, I lost to goblins, not sure what he lost to. I crushed belcher, thresh and something else I can't remember. The list is very much control, it's designed not just to get a dreadnought and hope it's enough, but to counter everything an opponent plays in the early game and then resolve Dread, while Counterbalance-Top gives the deck awesome late-game reach. The list has changed since I first played it, and here's a rough current list.
Deck: "Don't you know who I am? I'm the Juggernaut, bitch!"
//"Combo" (9)
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trickbind
3 Stifle
//Counters (11)
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare (This is probably going back to Counterspell pending more testing)
3 Counterbalance
//Trinket Mage toolbox (7)
4 Trinket Mage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Aether Spellbomb
//Card Selection/Draw (11)
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
//Land (22)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
14 Island
//Sideboard
4 Back to Basics
4 Vedalken Shackles
3 Morphling
1 Trickbind
1 Stifle
2 Echoing Truth

This deck abuses Counter-Top as much as possible, with 15 ways to see new cards with Top (This includes Predict which clears the top 3 cards)
One card which people might question is Predict which is a relatively new addition to the deck. I want to get this out of the way - it's nuts. You see the top card of your library enough that it almost never misses with Counterbalance, Top and Brainstorm, plus clearing useless chaff like extra land etc off the top so you get to the better cards. The deck often plays the slow game, not caring about anything but attacking creatures and Chalice for 1. Unfortunately, the deck only has 5 answers on the play for first turn lackey and 4 on the draw apart from stifling lackey triggers (FOW and EE) hence the deck often wins at low life. It's main weakness is that it has few answers to resolved creatures except chumping with Trinket Mage, but Dreadnought makes up for that as a very fast win condition in a deck like this, with little investment of mana - you can just sit back and dig with your cards till you assemble the combo and then win with counter backup. I'm considering going up to 4 trickbind, because control players often let the Dreadnought resolve, hoping to 2-for-1 by countering Stifle but when I drop trickbind they're in trouble. If anyone would like me to go into more detail on card choices I'd be happy to write up a mini-primer sort of thing, and any suggestions are more than welcome because I really think this deck is a strong metagame contender.
EDIT:
Regarding the SB choices, B2B is totally one-sided and steals games, especially when an opponent has brought in all their artifact hate for the dreadnoughts, which I've often sided out for Morphlings. Shackles is a must-have for the goblins matchup - if it sticks around (tends to take collateral from Dreadnought hate) while Morphling comes in for the matchups where the hate will be too much for dreadnought, because he dodges everything your opponent can bring in vs Dread besides Wrath which you just have to have FoW for. Stifle and Trickbind in the board are for the combo matchup which is heavily in your favour, especially Belcher. Echoing Truth is there for Chalice @ 1 which is your worst enemy at the moment.

EDIT2: Severance Belcher seems pretty elegant as well, but I'm not sure if it's better than DreadStifle because severance is dead without Belcher, and belcher costs 7 mana although it wins on the same turn, it's more likely to be turn 4 belcher, turn 5 severance belch. whereas you can drop dreadnought turn 2 with force backup and other counterspells in hand and easily win turn 4.

[Jak]

Severence Belcher

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
11 Island
4 Mishra's Factory

Win
2 Belcher
2 Mana Severence
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought

Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse

Control
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Mana Leak
4 Stifle

Creature Control
4 Propaganda
3 Vedalken Shackles

Maybe some thing like this? I would also want to add stuff like EE and Pongify, but could not find room. Thoughts?

[Occam]

I doubt dreadnought is going to make waves as a pure combo deck. I've actually been testing it in a stax shell. I know, sounds ironic and stupid, but stax has a lot of inherent synergy with the 12/12 dude. Firstly, dreadnought needs turns to beat for the win. Stax abuses tempo like no other, and the timewalk you get from a trinisphere could give the time needed. or from a crucible/wasteland tempo gain. Stifles are fantastic in blue stax too, because they are first turn land destruction against wasteland/fetchland happy people. Trickbind does the same thing. Vial plays around CotV and 3sphere as well as baits countermagic, and a manland/trinket mage can always act as a secondary win cond if the dreadnought doesn;t see play. Throw in a couple of sticks to place trickbind on and it is viable in the long run too. Let me test a while more before giving you guys a list.

To be honest, the only two really viable options I have seen are the breakfast option and the vengeur-mask port, but the former isn't going to be drastically improved by 12/12s and the latter places too much reliance on vs and the grave, which may not be too great in today's meta.

[Akira]

I have been looking at all the numerous (and trust me there are probably 500 threads on the Naughty phyrexian) threads on the dreadnaught deck. I would post a list but I am, and have been, without my cards for two months. I am on vacation and figured there are no card shops in Nipomo CA. But sure enough my dumb@$$ forgot that there are cities or towns about 15 mins away in all directions. Seriously Nipomo is located, RIGHT ON TOP OF A FREEWAY. Whoever thought of the structual development of this town was drunk throwing darts at a map blindfolded to see where they should build this town. But I digress from subject.

I am enjoying the decks production and I thnk this deck can be really competetive. Sadly I know I shouldnt do this, but can someone post matchups on the monoblue build? I would test but well if you read the top you would know why. Thank you.