[Deck] 21/20 Troll (and turn 2 thresh)

[raharu]

I saw a play set of golgari grave trolls in a friend’s trade box and had to build a deck around it as something more that a dredge piece. Here’s the deck.

Lands: 18
Swamp X 4
Forest X4
Dryad arbor X4
Cabal pit X4

Creatures:
Nimble mongoose X3 G
Putrid imp X4 B
Wild mongrel X3 1G
Fa’adiyah seer X4 1G
Golgari thug X 1 1B
Stinkweed imp X2 2B
Necroplasam X3 1BB
Grave shell scarab X2 2BGG
Golgari grave troll X4 4G

Instants: 3
traitor’s clutch X4 4B

Sorceries: 8
Duress X4 B
Cabal therapy X4 B

Enchantments:
Moldervine cloak X2 2G

That’s the list.

Dryad arbor got in because it’s a creature and a land, both pluses in this deck, and I can grab a blocker with life from the loam if need be (it shouldn’t). The Cabal Pits are here for recurring removal (because we don’t have any removal outside of it). The mongeese are here because we can get threshold turn two and hare all of our mana open when we do it, so it works nicely. Wild Mongrels are discard outlets when you need them, and beastly when you don’t. Enough said. Putrid Imp lets us get turn 2 thresh, and if you stick it with a moldervine cloak you get a 5/5. Nice. Fa’adiyah seer acts as both something to stabilize land drops and it’s a mini Bazaar of Baghdad later on. The random looking one of Golgari thug is there to grab at utility creatures that don’t have dredge, and Necroplasam is the closest thing to a sweep that I’ll run in this deck, and it leaves the trolls alone. Cabal Therapy and Duress because without them we’re helpless against combo of all non agro forms, and the grave shell scarab is a consistent, resilient beater that I keenly jacked from truffle shuffle because I’m awesome like that. Then there’s the primary win-con. Golgari Grave Troll. It + traitor’s clutch is the sex on turn six because if you’re aggressive, you can easily have a 20/20 troll by that time. Then you can give it shadow and kill some face. I like this deck a lot. It has gone though various versions but this is the one I’m working on now. I’ve used Far Wanderings, harrow and stuff like that to accelerate it, but it’s only one turn without moxen (which I don’t like), so I stopped going in that direction. The original list had no thug, no plasam and was straight up agro face bash, but I had martyr of Spores in it to make Wild Mongrel kill on turn 4-5ish. I was going to wait so that this would be entirely unknown at it’s first tournament, but I stopped caring, so here it is. Have fun.

Oh yeah, turn two thresh.

t1 -> swamp, putrid imp, their EoT discard troll
t2 -> dredge for troll, discard it again. thresh with 2 mana open. there it is.

[Elfrago]

Oh yeah, turn two thresh.

t1 -> swamp, putrid imp, their EoT discard troll
t2 -> dredge for troll, discard it again. thresh with 2 mana open. there it is.

:eek:
... and the only card you got with ******** is nimble moongose!:confused: :rolleyes:

[Jak]

And cabal pit, but whatever.

[raharu]

Yes, but the thresh on turn 2 is just a cute trick but in the title to grab your attention. There are infinitely better cards in the deck that aren't nimble mongese.

[vigilante]

There are infinitely better cards in the deck that aren't nimble mongese.There are? Care to elaborate?

[Nihil Credo]

To be perfectly honest, this just seems a worse version of Mana Ichorid. That deck plays a similar amount of disruption, kills much faster, and packs it to Leyline of the Void (not Crypt) about as much as yours.

[KillemallCFH]

Lands: 18
Swamp X 4
Forest X4
Dryad arbor X4
Cabal pit X44 + 4 + 4 + 4 != 18

Also, this deck seems to have a lot of problems. Why no Bayous/Fetches? Is Traitor's Clutch actually worth it? With so few lands and no draw, how do you expect to consistently be able to cast Grave-Troll or Scarab? Also, your ideal 'turn-two thresh' scenario isn't even that good. You get (only if it is hand) a turn 2 3/3. That's it. And you get card disadvantage because you have to miss a draw for it (to dredge back the Troll). Finally, why no Dark Ritual? Not only does it allow for first turn Duress-Therapy-Imp or something, but it allows you to get out an early necroplasm, because getting him turn 3 is much too slow.

[raharu]

@ KillemallCFH
But later in the game You are dredging all the time so the rits are dead except in the opening hand. I've tried them, but I'll re-test them in the final build. I find no need for fetches and duals. If you're going to but hard pressure on for 6 turns (the guaranteed win), you can't be any more vulnerable to wasteland that we already are. The ability to dredge circumvents the need for a draw engine. I can get just about whatever I need from the graveyard and with 18 lands I should be fine since I have seer and LftL to smooth out the land drops for sure. Traitor's clutch allows me to force anything I want (outside of mongeese :b), not just the giant troll for the finish. Having four allows me to not over commit to the graveyard and still be able to win easily with the threats I have on the table. One or two might come out, but in some number it stays.

@ vigilante
Yes. Wild Mongrel, Putird Imp, Stinkweed Imp, Grave Shell Scarab, to name a few. The geese might come out for wearbears. They're begger and I can stick them with moldervine cloak. Just better. The original reason I put the geese in in the first place was to have a resilient chump blocker. It's not really Key to this deck. when you're playing 5/5's and 10/10's, 3/3's aren't great.

[Bane of the Living]

@ KillemallCFH
But later in the game You are dredging all the time so the rits are dead except in the opening hand. I've tried them, but I'll re-test them in the final build. I find no need for fetches and duals. If you're going to but hard pressure on for 6 turns (the guaranteed win), you can't be any more vulnerable to wasteland that we already are. The ability to dredge circumvents the need for a draw engine. I can get just about whatever I need from the graveyard and with 18 lands I should be fine since I have seer and LftL to smooth out the land drops for sure. Traitor's clutch allows me to force anything I want (outside of mongeese :b), not just the giant troll for the finish. Having four allows me to not over commit to the graveyard and still be able to win easily with the threats I have on the table. One or two might come out, but in some number it stays.


Dude manaless ichorid doesnt need a late game. It wins turns 1-4 obviously it has something on your build.

[raharu]

@ bane
While that is true, I can win by turn 3-4 too. I would appreciate any effort made to keep conversation centered around this deck. While it might look the same, this is a very different (and not as fast) deck. I know it is not as fast. I don't care. IGGy pop can go off on turn 1. That is not this deck. Neither is manaless ichorid. Yes, we both use Golgari Grave troll. They use it as a dredge piece, while I use it as a win-con. I can just beat you into the ground with fast aggro. Last time I checked (only read the first 4ish pages) they can't. Different deck. If you want, I'll post the fast version and you can compare the original and the fast list, but please don't compare this deck and manaless ichorid.

[vigilante]

Can we have an example of how you win by turn 3-4? I'm not seeing it, but I'm assuming it involves the elusive god-draw (which I'm having trouble even identifying. Three threshed Mongeese and a Wild Mongrel attacking -- completely unopposed -- on turns 3 and 4, maybe? Take that, goldfish!)

Also, I count 56 cards here. Just sayin'.


I can just beat you into the ground with fast aggro.This deck is not fast aggro, as much as you might want it to be. Putrid Imps, Fa’adiyah Seers, Golgari Thugs, Stinkweed Imps, Necroplasms, Grave-shell Scarabs and Golgari Grave-Trolls are not fast aggro creatures. You might be able to start assembling a large enough quantity of less-than-stellar creatures by, say, turn 6-7 to mount an aggro-like assault, but the assumption that you can just slip into aggro-mode is just wrong. That brings us back to Nihil's original train of thought -- why would people want to play this deck when Manaless Ichorid is available? Ichorid will have opponents dead before this deck has even started rolling.

[raharu]

This is the fast list. I don’t like it, but that means you will.

Nimble mongoose X4
Putrid imp X4
Martyr of spores X4
Fa’adiyah seer X4
Wild mongrel X4
Stinkweed imp X4
Golgari grave troll X4

Traitor’s clutch X4 (still)

Moldervine cloak X4

Far wanderings X4

Swamp X4
Forest X4
Dryad arbor X4
Cabal pit X4
Chrome mox X4

Better?

The guaranteed kill is still there, and it can pitch a hand to martyr, martyr, mongrel for a much faster game, but I hate the list. I don't know why. I think it's the entire lack of disruption and board control... This deck needs to become a mix of the two. Gimme some ideas.

[Sanguine Voyeur]

Far Wandering is wrong.

Even Sakura Tribe Elder would be better.

[raharu]

Ok then, I'll try it. The only reason it got in was because it pulled three lands. Not the best, and STE is a creature. Thanks. What's the consensus of goose vs. wearbear?

Also, this deck either needs good disruption to fight combo or it needs to be faster. Anyone think that a blue splash and duals would help? Lets us run Cephelid coliseum.

[Bane of the Living]

@ bane
While that is true, I can win by turn 3-4 too. I would appreciate any effort made to keep conversation centered around this deck. While it might look the same, this is a very different (and not as fast) deck. I know it is not as fast. I don't care. IGGy pop can go off on turn 1. That is not this deck. Neither is manaless ichorid. Yes, we both use Golgari Grave troll. They use it as a dredge piece, while I use it as a win-con. I can just beat you into the ground with fast aggro. Last time I checked (only read the first 4ish pages) they can't. Different deck. If you want, I'll post the fast version and you can compare the original and the fast list, but please don't compare this deck and manaless ichorid.

I use gravetroll to kill people too, but instead of paying 5 for him I dread return him on turn two. I know Iggy wins turn one once in a blue moon but its a straight combo deck so it has disadvantages that ichorid doesnt. If your talking about Ichorid not "beating you into the ground with fast aggro" im just at a loss for words. I suggest you just try the deck since its obvious you havent touched it.

[raharu]

That was saying if they don't get the combo they're screwed. I know that you have gone a long way to improve the consistency of the deck. I've followed the deck since it was posted, but this is not even close to that deck. I give. Can't get any advice anyway.

[Zilla]

Focus on improving this deck, not comparing it to others. If you have nothing constructive to add, don't post. - Zilla

[raharu]

Berserk X3
Dark ritual X3
Traitor’s clutch X3

Cabal therapy X4
Nightmare void X3

Life from the loam X2

Putrid imp X4
Martyr of spores X3
Nimble mongoose X3
Sakusa tribe elder X4
Werebear X3
Fa’adiydid seer X3
Golgari grave troll X4

Swamp X3
Forest X3
Dryad arbor X4
Bayou X4
Fetches X4



New list. Faster list. No acceleration. Just faster playstyle. I took out Cabal pit because it's useless. Don't need removal. I want more disruption. Lots more. Like duress X4 cabal pit X4 nightmare void X2-4?? Suggestions?

[C-Aleric]

New list. Faster list. No acceleration. Just faster playstyle. I took out Cabal pit because it's useless. Don't need removal. I want more disruption. Lots more. Like duress X4 cabal therapy X4 nightmare void X2-4?? Suggestions?

I'm assuming this is what you meant, since you say earlier in the sentence that you took them out Cabal Pit :cool:

And this list doesn't really seem TOO much faster than the previous ones posted aside from Berserk.

I'm also curious how Martyr of Spore's has been working for you. It seems like most of the green cards you have in your hand, aside from berserk, want to be laid down on the table, or just put into your graveyard. Perhaps something like Might of Old Krosa would work better for you, since +4/+4 is nice, it helps if you're on the defence. Also, instead of Werebear, check out Tarmogoyf. You'll probably quickly realize he'll be more useful than Werebear in this list. I can see how the Bear's acceleration is nice occasionally for you, but Tarmogoyf with Might/Berserk can almost be lethal. I'll agree that Werebear can be as well, however, Goyf' just gets bigger, and costs the same, and is much less reliant of your own graveyard to be good.

Sakura Tribe Elder is another underpowered looking card in this deck. If you're really stuck finding another mana source early, I'd suggest Lotus Petal or something. Backed with Dark Rit, you can drop a creature (a GREEN one even) and disruption, hopefully setting you up for a good clock/win. It also will pump 'Goyf, if you decide he's better than Werebear.

Strictly judging from speed, Duress would probably work out better than Nightmare Void. I realize the dredge is nice, and having a late game is good. Not blindly throwing Cabal Therapy is awesome. Knowing Cabal Therapy is going to screw them is nice too.

As for Dryad Arbor, I don't believe it taps for mana when it comes into play. This could be an issue for this deck. You have a substantial amount of creatures as is. Making your mana base fragile for a free Llanowar elf over a Dual land seems less than ideal. Maybe you could work in a Wasteland lock with Life from the Loam to give you an auto-win against decks that aren't immediately prepared for it. As well as a late game against any heavy non-basic land deck.

Anyway. These are the things that immediately pop out to me when reading. Hopefully it will help out. Good luck :wink:

[raharu]

Thank you very much. If I add Tarmogoyf, do you think that moldervine cloak should go back in? 28 creatures is less than the deck originally started with (in the prototype, not posted), but I think something is going to get pulled for X4 duress... With the rits in the list, should necroplasam go back in the list? The deck's creature curve is no longer right to abuse it, though. Is Lotus > STE? Maybe -4 STE +4 Lotus petal? Probably -2 Dryad arbors -2 nightmare void for +4 duress? I like it better, and there's still one nightmare void for later in the game. How does anyone feel about cycling lands? I don't quite think they're fast enough, but I'm not sure. Oh yeah, the martyr is working pretty good. turn one martyr turn two mongrel turn three sac martyr berserk is good with 5 cards in hand, but it could easily (and probably will be) Might of Old Krosa. I like the face that martyr chumps though, but i'll test both when I can.

EDIT: Some of you are probably wondering why you should take the time to develop this deck. This is the most interesting deck to play I have ever seen. I is essentially two deck in 60 cards. It can be incredibly intricate, or just plain old fashioned agro stompy. It has room for personal playstyle tweaks that few decks allot room for and it's still just as good after you get it to were you like it. There are things that this deck does that few decks in this format get to do (hence the title) that just feel good. Proxy any of the lists up, maybe with you own tweaks, and play around with it a little. Is it the best? Not yet :b But with a little help, I feel that this deck could be pretty great, if not at least playable.


EDIT: Avatar of woe? I was looking around for removal for my B/U control and found it. What do you guys think? I like it. Maybe with a Golgari thug to fetch it out of the graveyard?