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Atwa
08-02-2007, 05:29 PM
Here is a primer of the deck I’ve played during the ‘The Source Tournament’, to a top 4 finish (Here is the report (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6541)).

I. Introduction

I’ve developed this deck a couple of weeks ago, while I was working at a very boring congress for Microsoft. I simply pulled out my laptop and started to tinker a little bit on MWS. At first I tried to build a Quirion Dryad deck with a little extra power from Tarmogoyf, but even as I was only halfway, I could see it wasn’t going to work. I changed the deck idea to a pure Tarmogoyf instead, and after thinking of all color combinations (even 5 colors), I settled at a black list, with a green and white splash.

I posted it on our team boards and found out one of my fellow members had build an almost exact deck, except he went for a more aggroish approach. After tooling with it a bit and testing a lot, I feel the most comfortable with the list I’ve used at the tournament.

Let’s start with the deck list and I’ll explain some things after that.


II. Deck list:

IcBE Goyf Control v1.10

Lands:
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mystic Enforcer

Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Darkblast
1 Funeral Charm
1 Orim’s Chant
1 Krosan Grip

Sorceries:
3 Duress
3 Reanimate
3 Vindicate

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Seal of Primordium

Artifacts:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Orim’s Chant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Duress
1 Pithing Needle


III: Fast explanations:
The whole deck is made to abuse Tarmogoyf to the fullest. Some card choises are a little odd, but there is logic behind every choice. The idea was to have a deck with as many broad usable cards as possible. Almost every card can be used for multiple tasks, depending on the matchup.

Most people will notice the lack of 4-offs. The most important thing to remember about this deck is that it isn’t build for consistency, but to be able to adapt in every match. What good will 4x Pithing Needle do for you when your opponent has no real targets for it? Although it can be a killer in some matchups, against some decks you can only use it to shut down fetchland. I’d rather cut one or two to the sideboard so I can have some in game 1, and I can add more from the side.

I also changed 2 Krosan Grips to Seal of Primordium. While the Grip is strictly better, it can be a dead card sometimes. Seal will never be a dead card, since you can always sacrifice it with no target (when there are non on the table) to fuel both Mystic Enforcer and Tarmogoyf. The fact that it is an enchantment also helps in this decision.


IV: Card explanations:
Tarmogoyf: This is the sole reason to play this deck. Anyone still not convinced of this card’s power has no business in legacy (or even magic). In my opinion, this is the best green card since Life from the Loam and the best green creature since Troll Ascetic. This whole deck has been build to use this creature to the fullest.

I’ve made a card breakdown of all card types used in this deck:
23 Land: 38.33%
10 Creatures: 16.67%
9 Instants: 15%
9 Sorceries: 15%
5 Enchantments: 8.33%
4 Artifacts: 6.67%

Almost every card puts either itself or another type (sometimes both) into a graveyard. Having a Goyf on the field at 6/7 on turn 4 is no exception.

Mystic Enforcer: Since we are already playing a deck based on abusing the graveyard, I figured this card could be used as a late game finisher. Most of the time, you will have no trouble of filling your grave. I also see less and less Tormod Crypts in sideboards, since Threshold (the main reason to play Crypt) is also packing Goyf, making other cards better against it. Most people are packing cards like Leyline, Withered Wretch and Engineered Explosives to deal with graveyard decks, and I have both maindeck and sideboard answers to all those cards.

Dark Confidant: When playing a (aggro)control deck, it might look weird to rely only on a creature for some extra card draw, but since I’m not playing blue, I’m almost bound to Confidant. A big plus is that almost everyone tries to kill it ASAP, so they almost work like a lightning rod for creature removal. I really can’t care if you play Ghastly Demise on my Confidant, if I can follow up with a 4/5 Goyf. Every removal spell directed at Confidant is one which won’t be cast on Goyf or Enforcer. The damage isn’t that much most of the time, and when it gets too dangerous to keep him on the board, I have 15 cards maindeck to get rid of him. Due to the average manacosts of my cards, this isn’t often needed though:

16x 1 mana
10x 2 mana
07x 3 mana
02x 4 mana
Total average casting cost, including land: 1.08.

Swords to Plowshares:This is a legacy deck which uses white mana. No explanations needed, you will think. Normally not, except that this card contradicts the whole philosophy of this deck. The sole purpose of the deck is to get cards into the graveyard, and this card removes them. However, it’s really nice to gain some extra life, and it’s vital to have some cheap targeted removal in some matchups, but most of the time I’d wish it was something else.

Duress: Being for the most part a board-control deck, we almost automatically have a poor matchup against most fast combo. Duress is what can give you at least a chance to win the first game.

Vindicate: This deck really wants to able to destroy everything which it faces. Vindicate is the perfect card for this. Most of the time you’d want to have instants for this work, but I was already low on sorceries for this deck. Playing with the deck has proven me that this card really deserves its slots.

Pernicious Deed: Deed is maybe the best board sweeper in our format. Most of the time, you'll clear the whole board with it, and follow with a very big Goyf or Enforcer. Also, affinity is still being played in the format, and this card slaughters it (free Armageddons ftw!).

Reanimate: Maybe Reanimate is the second best card in the whole deck. Our creatures are bound to get killed, discarded or dredged into our graveyard. Seeing we play both Deed and Explosives, we are bound to kill our own creatures. Reanimate really helps you out. Reanimate is also functioning as creature 11-13. Who doesn’t want a 5/6 creature for 1 mana and 2 life? Stealing the creatures in your opponent’s graveyard is almost always a really cool thing to do, and you always surprise people with it, since Reanimate is way underrated in this format. Ask White-ghost how he feels about it :) I really wonder why decks like Pox and Suicide don’t play it.

Darkblast:[i] Although I already have lots of ways to get rid of little creatures, most of the time you want to save those cards until some big creatures show up. Darkblast is ideal at killing Lackey, Welder, Werebear, Goblin Tokens, Dark Confidant and lots of other small creatures. It is also very good when you are playing against another deck with Tarmogoyf. Attack into theirs and after they declare theirs as a blocker (which they’ll most likely do), make theirs smaller. Dredging helps a lot to grow a Goyf or Enforcer fast.

[i]Seal of Primordium: At first I wanted to play Seal of Cleansing, but I decided I didn’t want my biggest win condition in the least played color. Either Seal is almost always strictly worse than Krosan Grip is, but for starters: in this deck you don’t want to keep your mana open and Grip can be a dead card (although almost every deck has at least one or two targets in their deck). Seals can be sacrificed when there are no targets on the board and they count as enchantment for Goyf. Less and less people are playing enchantments, so it’s good to have some of your own.

Pithing Needle: Almost every deck has targets for this card and a lot of people are playing them in their sideboard. I’ve found out they work out fine in the maindeck, as long as you don’t play too many. Two main and a third in the board fit’s ideal for this deck.

Engineered Explosives: Very useful to have in today’s metagame. Almost every deck has targets for this guy, even combo with Empty the Warrens. Too many clutter up in your hand, but a 3/2 configuration with Deed is just about right. I tried the numbers the other way around, but I never felt comfortable with it.

Krosan Grip: Shouldn’t need an extra explanation. I used to play 3 in the maindeck, but switched 2 for Seals and never looked back. Although, sometimes you just want to use the split-second mechanic, and it’s always nice to have it.

Orim’s Chant: I wanted to have a 4th anti-combo card in the maindeck, which wasn’t discard. I’ve decided on Orim’s Chant. Although it saved my ass many times against combo, I’ve used it more often to make sure my opponent doesn’t play any blockers or sorcery speed removal. A couple of times it even won me the game like this.

Funeral Charm: When I originally build the deck, I got stuck at 59 cards (first time ever). I really wanted to play no more than 23 land, so adding an extra Swamp wouldn’t have worked. The puzzle came together after I scrolled through the card list and found the Charm. Since I didn’t want to play 4 Duress or 3 Darkblast, this card fits the hole perfectly, Funeral Charm is both! I know the choices you get, are strictly worse than the originals, but having the choice which card you want to use is really good in this deck. I might add more, but I really don’t want to cut anything from the list yet.

Lands:
6 Fetches are really needed to get your mana right, as well as get lands into the graveyard. Wasteland is a real bomb, since you can attack their manabase together with Vindicate and it keeps a land in their grave even if they use Tormod’s Crypt on you. 4 basic lands are needed to make yourself a little wasteland-proof and the 10 Duals work out fine to get every color you need.

The Sideboard:
- Engineered Plague: Against Goblins, Empty the Warrens, Elves and even some builds of Survival
- Chalice of the Void: Mainly for Combo and Threshold.
- Orim’s Chant: Combo
- Duress: Combo and (Aggro)Control
- Pithing Needle: Belcher, Survival and other random decks/cards
- Krosan Grip: Survival, Staxs, Pox, Belcher
Note that I made this sideboard for a unknown metagame. Adjust as needed.


V: Matchups:
I won’t give percentages, since these depend on both players involved, and I haven’t tested the deck enough to make them reasonable.

Goblins:[/u]
(about even)
This matchup totally depends on both begin hands. Make sure to have at least a 1 mana removal spell ready for Goblin Lackey, and ideally have a Pernicious Deed ready to sweep the board. Vindicates and Wastelands should be primary used to destroy their mana base (in which I also include Goblin Warchief) and try to get rid of Vials as fast as possible.

Sideboard plan:
+4 Engineered Plague
-1 Orim’s Chant
-3 Duress (or -1 Duress -2 Seal, really depends on how they sideboard)

[i]Threshold[/u]
(slightly favourable)
The most important thing to do is make sure you play around Daze. Force of Will can’t really be helped, and Swords to Plowshares aimed at a Tarmogoyf really sucks. Even though they can draw through their deck very fast, and have a slightly better creature base, we have way better (and more) removal.

Sideboard plan:
+4 Chalice of the Void (hurts us as well, but it shuts down almost their whole deck)
+1 Duress
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Seal of Primordium
-1 Krosan Grip

[i]The Epic Storm:[/u]
(slightly unfavourable)
This game is all about luck. If your opponent gets a first turn kill on the play, there is nothing you can do. If it takes longer, you have all sorts of nasty things you can do against them. Duress is nice against them, Funeral Charm can also be nice, but not as effective. Almost always use Orim’s Chant in response to their Burning Wishes. Explosives, Deed and Engineered Plague help against their Empty the Warrens after boarding.

Sideboard plan:
+4 Chalice of the Void
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Orim’s Chant
+1 Duress
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Vindicate
-2 Seal of Primordium
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Pernicious Deed

[i]Belcher:
(slightly favourable)
Better to play against than TES is, since Belcher is way more fragile. We play maindeck Krosan Grip, Seal, Pithing Needle and discard to punish them for not comboing on turn 1. Again, use Orim’s Chants in response to their wishes, this alone can win you the game.

Sideboard plan:
+4 Engineered Plague
+3 Orim’s Chant
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Duress
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-3 Reanimate
-2 Seal of Primordium

Deadguy’s Ale
(favourable)
Even if both discard an land destruction can be troublesome, this deck can deal with it, as long as it isn’t coming all at once. You really need only 2 mana to operate 75 % of the deck. Their creatures are weak and can all be dealt with by a single Darkblast (using dredge). As soon as you get a big Tarmogoyf or an Enforcer on the board, they basically lose. Charm’s effect which grants swampwalk can also be useful here.

Sideboard plan:
+1 Duress
+1 Pithing Needle
-1 Orim’s Chant
-1 Seal of Primordium


Pox
(very unfavourable)
This deck can deal with destruction when it is directed at one point, but pox attacks all directions all in once. I don’t really have a strategy other than kill all their win conditions (almost all artefacts) and try to deliver some punches with your creatures before they die. One or two hit with a big creature are enough most of the time, but you are unlikely to deliver them.

Sideboard plan:
+2 Krosan Grip
+1 Duress
-2 Darkblast
-1 Orim’s Chant


VI: Conclusions:
All in all, this is a deck which I have enjoyed playing during the online tournament and I have already bought and traded the cards I didn’t have yet to build it in real life.

I’m not a (aggro)control player at all, but building this deck was challenging and a lot of fun. After sharing this list, I hope more people can enjoy playing it or at least help them building their own Tarmogoyf decks. I am pretty sure this isn’t the best list possible, and somewhere I hope we’ll never find it. Tarmogoyf is a wet dream for deck builders, since there are so many possible configurations and so many tweakings possible.

As far as any changes to be made, is that this deck really needs some hate against recurring strategies. Maze of Ith with Life from the Loam is almost unbeatable. Adding Extirpate will really help.

As for this build, please leave any comments, since I’m certain this will be my pet deck for a long time, and tips are always welcome.

Tacosnape
08-02-2007, 05:34 PM
Okay, don't take this the wrong way, because I absolutely love the concept of this deck.

But why in God's name do you need Seal of Primordium when you have Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, and Engineered Explosives, all of which deal with artifacts/enchantments and all of which fill a card type for Tarmogoyf?

Atwa
08-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Okay, don't take this the wrong way, because I absolutely love the concept of this deck.

Hey, critisism is good for any deck(builder), I won't take it the wrong way. I'm even flattered you at least like the concept of the deck.


But why in God's name do you need Seal of Primordium when you have Vindicate, Pernicious Deed, and Engineered Explosives, all of which deal with artifacts/enchantments and all of which fill a card type for Tarmogoyf?

You have a point here. Most of the time I play it as a sorcery speed naturalize. Not that amazing, but it servers it purpose. Besides, Explosives is somewhat narrow when dealing with some artiafacts and enchantments. Most of the time you want to set EE at 0,1 or 2.

Deed is good, but I'd always like to destroy as many permanents as possible.

Besides, Seal is always a good treath. In certain matchups, people will stop playing their strategy (think of survival) before they have a way to deal with it. The thing this deck likes the most, is slowing your opponent down so you can kill him fast.

All in all I think it's just a matter of style. they started in the deck mostly for S&G, but I really like them. I think they are pretty good actually.

Anyway, add more (and better) explanations, and answer more questions tomorrow. It's pretty late over here now, so I'm off to bed.

nitewolf9
08-02-2007, 05:49 PM
Dark Confidant: When playing a (aggro)control deck, it might look weird to rely only on a creature for some extra card draw, but since I’m not playing blue, I’m almost bound to Confidant. A big plus is that almost everyone tries to kill it ASAP, so they almost work like a lightning rod for creature removal. I really can’t care if you play Ghastly Demise on my Confidant, if I can follow up with a 4/5 Goyf.


That's the problem I have here. Ghastly Demise can't target Dark Confidant, because Dark Confidant is black. So if I am up against a deck that is packing ghastly demise then Bob won't take the heat off of tarmogoyf and he may actually end up sticking around. The reason ghastly demise can't target black creatures may never be known...maybe black creatures are just too ghastly already to demise. My real point here is that Dark Confidant can bring you greatness, but at what cost? When do you draw the line?

Atwa
08-02-2007, 05:55 PM
@nitewolf9:

You are right here. I wrote this thread in several days in the train from and to work.

More of these small mistakes will probably turn up in this thread. However, replace Demise with Lightning Bolt and you have the same story.

Cofidant does act like a lightning rod, and when people realize what I'm up to and hold their removal for Goyf, Confidant gets me more threads and answers for his deck.

The average castingcost is only 1.08, so the damage doesn't hurt that much. Besides, have any better options for carddraw in this deck? The only thing I can think about is Night's Wisper, which just sucks.

Illissius
08-02-2007, 06:08 PM
My real point here is that Dark Confidant can bring you greatness, but at what cost?

At any cost. Obviously.

edit -- For drawing cards, there's Sensei's Divining Top, Phyrexian Arena (not so hot with Deed), Skeletal Scrying, Life from the Loam, Ohran Viper, Harmonize... not sure what else. But Bob is good, I think. Depends on what you want.

T is for TOOL
08-02-2007, 07:28 PM
Did you test Unearth before deciding on Reanimate? It save you lifeloss and can always be cycled if you draw it early with nothing in the yard. The downside is obviously that you can't target your opponents graveyard. How often did you find yourself Reanimating creatures in your opponent's graveyard?

URABAHN
08-02-2007, 07:46 PM
What happened between you can Tacosnape, I think you won, right? Also, did you test against Landstill, Red Death, or Mind Over Candelabra Spring Tide?

honz
08-03-2007, 12:21 AM
I'm interested in why you would play reanimate over regrowth / eternal witness. Reanimate does put them into play, which is nice. However, with such a low curve, simply replaying should be easy enough. Regrowth / witness also gives you some versatility that reanimate doesn't have; i can think of plenty of times you want another deed, or StP, or vindicate..etc

I think this deck could get alot out of sensei's top. The reasons are obvious enough...

The deck looks solid, although im not sure about the 1-ofs.

outsideangel
08-03-2007, 01:17 AM
Top would definitely be good here. I would probably cut the Seals for at least two, and see if I can't make room for the third.

Tops would make all those random 1- and 2- and 3-ofs seem more attractive since you could dig for them and help keep from drawing the ones you don't want. Obviously you'd want to adjust the number of fetches to work better with tops, too.

from Cairo
08-03-2007, 01:43 AM
Did you test Unearth before deciding on Reanimate? It save you lifeloss and can always be cycled if you draw it early with nothing in the yard. The downside is obviously that you can't target your opponents graveyard. How often did you find yourself Reanimating creatures in your opponent's graveyard?

Unearth seems much better to me. It can even be used as a pump spell for a Tarmogoyf if it's in danger of taking lethal damage, cycle in response. And as the OP mentioned Confidant's going to be sucking up alot of removal, Tarmogoyf will no doubt be a target as well, I would think Unearth's ability to pull these two back out at no life cost and the fact that it can cycle when unneeded would outweigh the occasionally broken reanimated fatty from an opponents gy.

C.P.
08-03-2007, 01:56 AM
Unearth seems much better to me. It can even be used as a pump spell for a Tarmogoyf if it's in danger of taking lethal damage, cycle in response. And as the OP mentioned Confidant's going to be sucking up alot of removal, Tarmogoyf will no doubt be a target as well, I would think Unearth's ability to pull these two back out at no life cost and the fact that it can cycle when unneeded would outweigh the occasionally broken reanimated fatty from an opponents gy.

The deck only runs 10 creatures. To use that reanimation spot to the full extent without you should be able to target your opponent or just not run it. Might as well run a Stronghold or something if you are just going to get your creatures back.

from Cairo
08-03-2007, 03:24 AM
The deck only runs 10 creatures. To use that reanimation spot to the full extent without you should be able to target your opponent or just not run it. Might as well run a Stronghold or something if you are just going to get your creatures back.

What's generally going to be in an opponents gy thats any better than Tarmogoyf? I guess that would be the biggest question.

Like vs. Goblins one has no use for their Ringleader or Gempalm Incinerator, Siege-gang could be good I guess, but thats 3-4 cards out of their deck, they have to get it into the gy, not Swords'd, and it's at the cost of 5 life. Vs Thresh its going to be their Tarmogoyf or yours (I guess there is Fledgling Dragon/Enforcer, I don't know if their being run that much), if their 4cc finisher is being run it has to have made it, in its x1 or x2 quantity, from the deck to the gy, otherwise it doesn't matter. Vs any of the combo decks, the creatures in gy are like Streetwraith or Tinderwall or something, nothing worth getting into play. Vs Landstill they have no guys so your gy is the only one you would target.

Given the effect is only going to be used to target your creatures, in the cases of the Landstill match, Goblins match, a fair share of Gro matches and various combo matchs, Unearth seems stronger since it fills that role, sans life loss and expands on it by being able to be cycled to add a card type to the gy in situations where a reanimate effect couldn't/shouldn't be used. I could see the point in not running the reanimation slot for sure, but assuming that it was going to be run Unearth seems better. I don't think Volrath's Stronghold serves anything resembling the same function since it doesn't bring the creature back into play, and it doesn't add a card type to the gy.

It could be metagame dependent too I suppose if you see alot of great creatures in opponents' gys in your metagame I could see the logic in advocating for Reanimate, but from the decks I'm thinking of anyway nothing is jumping to mind.

Whit3 Ghost
08-03-2007, 10:54 AM
Did you test Unearth before deciding on Reanimate? It save you lifeloss and can always be cycled if you draw it early with nothing in the yard. The downside is obviously that you can't target your opponents graveyard. How often did you find yourself Reanimating creatures in your opponent's graveyard?
He beat me in game 3 to knock me out in the source tournament.

I was playing red 5/3. Game 1 I won via turn one Magus of the Moon. Game 2 saw me getting ran over by tarmgoyfs when I could have Chaliced @ 2 turn one.

Anyway, on to game 3. I sac some Crystal Veins to cast a Razorcore. He eot Grips him. I then play goblin welder with an open Mishra's Factory for welding. He reanimates the Razorcore the turn before I could Weld, and I have to pick up my cards.

Also, you have a much greater psycological effect on your opponent if you steal one of their creatures.

Atwa
08-03-2007, 12:33 PM
Also, you have a much greater psycological effect on your opponent if you steal one of their creatures.

This is a sure thing.

In the couple of weeks I've been playing this deck, I've stole (not limited to):Akroma, Helldozer, opposing Tarmogoyfs, opposing Enforcer, Fledging Dragon, Razormane Masticore, Masticore, Juggernaut, Goblin Welder (weld their threats back for Chrome Moxes), I even stole a Watchwolf when I needed a blocker against a Kird Ape.

There are plenty of targets you can steal. I only wait with Reaminate if I'm sure they are going to kill my Goyf within the next 2 turns. Otherwise I almost always try to steal a creature from my opponent, this also saves Goyf and Enforcer against Diabolic Edict. Besides, Reaminate also keeps your drawengine (Confidant) going when needed.

Another plus of Reanimate, is that you can play your Mystic Enforcer on turn one, when getting swamp->dark ritual->Carnophage + Hymn to Tourach.

Reaminate is the only card, besides Goyf that will never, ever leave the deck. I am really suprised not more people play it. In a format filled with creauters, you are likely to find at least a few decent targets.


He reanimates the Razorcore the turn before I could Weld, and I have to pick up my cards.

Sorry man, I really felt dirty for doing that. But I had a Top 8 to catch, so it was kind of nessesairy :)

Nihil Credo
08-03-2007, 04:40 PM
I'm not quite sold on the entire half-Rock/half-Pikula game plan, but at least I now know what 1cc black sorcery to try in my newest deck ;)

Atwa
08-03-2007, 05:46 PM
I'm not quite sold on the entire half-Rock/half-Pikula game plan, but at least I now know what 1cc black instant to try in my newest deck ;)

If you are talking about Reanimate, it's a sorcery.

And about the plan, just copy the list into MWS and start to play a couple of games. At first I also thought it would never work, but it got me all the way through the semi-finals of our online tournament, so it isn't uterly crap.

Atwa
08-30-2008, 11:14 AM
Necro ftw!

OK now, this is the list I had right before I took my brake form magic:

IcBE Goyf Control v1.10

Lands:
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wasteland
2 Savannah
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bloodstained Mire

Creatures:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mystic Enforcer

Instants:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Funeral Charm
1 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip

Sorceries:
3 Duress
3 Reanimate
3 Vindicate

Enchantments:
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Seal of Primordium

Artifacts:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Pithing Needle

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
3 Orim’s Chant
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
2 Sacred Gound
1 Duress
1 Pithing Needle

Changes from the last list:
-2 Darkblast
-1 Orims Chant
-4 CHalice of the Void (SB)
+ 2 Funeral Charm
+ 1 Extirpate
+ 2 Sacred Ground
+ 2 Extirpate

Changes were made after analyzing it's bad machtups a little better. I kept loosing to pox and staxs which Sacred Ground fixed. Orim's Chant main is pretty cool, however this deck hates recurring strategies. Extirpate fixes that.

Any suggestions for this deck in the new meta? This list is still 6 month's old.

Citrus-God
08-30-2008, 11:34 AM
Speaking of Goyf Control, I've been running something similar lately;


// Mana 23
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest


// Win Conditions 11
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Wildspeaker Garruk


// Spells 26
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Reanimate


// Sideboard 15
2 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle
2 Circle of Protection: Red


So why am I running Animate? Because I always end up killing another guy's creature that is bigger than mine, I thoughtseized away a monster, or some douchebag cycled his Eternal Dragon. Just Extirpate his Swords and cast Reanimate.

Atwa
08-30-2008, 02:25 PM
I have no questions at all of for the use of Reaminate :)

Just a question though, I didn't include Thoughseize in my build, because the loss of life was already pretty severe with 6 Fetches, Confidant and Reanimate. Ever had any problems?

DireLemming
08-31-2008, 06:16 AM
Speaking of Goyf Control, I've been running something similar lately;


// Mana 23
4 Windswept Heath
2 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Bayou
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest


// Win Conditions 11
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Wildspeaker Garruk


// Spells 26
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Reanimate

Wouldn't Sylvan Library be better than Top here? It has nice synergy with Confidant and you aren't running many instant-speed answers to really abuse Top.

No_Life_No_Future
08-31-2008, 01:55 PM
Top is strictly better with EE and Deed.

Atwa
08-31-2008, 03:10 PM
Top is strictly better with EE and Deed.

QFT!

I think Top is better in almost every situation. The only places I would play Library, is in Enchantress or alongside Uba Mask (3 free cards each turn is sexy, along with denying your opponent his counterspells).

DireLemming
08-31-2008, 04:40 PM
QFT!

I think Top is better in almost every situation.
Why? Granted there is a certain lack of synergy with board sweepers but you yourself said the whole premise of this deck is to fill the graveyard to the point of even running (otherwise) sub-optimal cards (Seal) to further that goal.

The synergy Library has with Confidant is not to be overlooked. You can constantly keep the same card (e.g. a land) on the top not giving away any information or life.

There are also matchups where I would imagine you would gladly trade life for cards (e.g. v.s. combo, maybe even against Pox if you manage your life carefully).

Atwa
09-02-2008, 01:59 AM
Why? Granted there is a certain lack of synergy with board sweepers but you yourself said the whole premise of this deck is to fill the graveyard to the point of even running (otherwise) sub-optimal cards (Seal) to further that goal.

Let me ask you this: If Seal is as sub-optimal as it is, can you please explain to me the reason why even a tempo deck as Eva Green has started to run it? When I build the deck I saw the Seal as suboptimal, however when playing the deck I sometimes like it better than Grip. Besides, I play Dark Confident. That is normally enough for the extra boost in card advantage this deck needs. If I need more after a Deed or Explosives, I can always Reanimate it, something you can't do with Library.

Like I said in the openingspost, all cards in this deck have multiple uses. All cards can get other cards into a graveyard (Swords to Plowshares excluded, but there is no other card with that powerlevel). Library only digs, Confidant can also attack and block.


The synergy Library has with Confidant is not to be overlooked. You can constantly keep the same card (e.g. a land) on the top not giving away any information or life.

I'm not sure, but I think the synergy between Top and Confidant was the first thing people noticed when Confidant was spoilered. If my memory serves me well, Top wasn't even played a lot in Legacy before (and then Counterbalance came....). Why would the synergy with Library be any better than the synergy with Top it?

I'd say Top is even better, since you can use it EOT instead of having a whole turn with the same card on your library. What if your (crappy) opponent uses Memory Lapse (laugh, but I've seen it happen)?


There are also matchups where I would imagine you would gladly trade life for cards (e.g. v.s. combo, maybe even against Pox if you manage your life carefully).

I'd rather play card which are actually usefull against said deck, then having to dig for it, while paying life. If you've ever played this deck, you'd known this deck doesn't want to lose a lot of life. I'd rather pay 2 life to reaminate the Goyf Pox destroyed, rather than having to pay 4 or even 8 life when you are already at 12/13.

The same is true against Belcher/Tendrills combo. Make sure you keep a lot of life, I've stabelised against belcher while being at 1 life, due to a unlucky activation of Belcher, more than often.

I do agree with you Library has it's benefits in certain decks, however it has no place in this deck.

jazzykat
09-02-2008, 02:29 AM
Speaking from experience with reanimate from Eva Green it single handedly has won me a ton of games opponents dudes brought back:

Angel of Despair
Terravore....huh huh
Tarmogoyf
Eternal Witness
Loxodon Hierarch
Random Utility Creatures of my opponents that liked to be in the grave yard...Genesis...

Simply put reanimate is single handedly the biggest game winner for me. Take that with a grain of salt but taking a terravore vs. loam decks, and a random 43 land is basically gg!

Skeggi
09-02-2008, 07:42 AM
I'd say Top is even better, since you can use it EOT instead of having a whole turn with the same card on your library. What if your (crappy) opponent uses Memory Lapse (laugh, but I've seen it happen)?


What if you use a fetch. Bob draws you a card in your upkeep; before Library activates. This is a clear case of Top > Library imo.

Instead of the Seal of Primordium, how about Seal of Strength? It gives Goyf potentially +4/+4.

Willoe
09-02-2008, 08:00 AM
You'll lose a card to pump goyfie. You don't want that, only in emergency situations. Then Seal of Removal serves better as removal. It creates two creature types in the yard, as well as killing an opposing Tarmogoyf.