B/r/g Xmas Ale

[Hanni]

B/r/g Xmas Ale

Lands (20)
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest

Creatures (12)
4 Dark Confidant
3 Nantuko Shade
1 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf

Spells (28)
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Magma Jet
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Sideboard (15)
4 Unmask
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
3 Rolling Earthquake

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6238

Basically, I took the frame from the B/w/g Deadguy Rock deck I was working on and dropped white for red. I dropped the LD element entirely and added alot more removal.

The additional 4 more 1cc spot removal spells improves the Goblins matchup alot. 1st turn Lackey starts were often difficult to win. The addition of burn instead of LD balances out against board control... LD is strong vs control, but so is burn. Other random aggro matchups are also improved because of the large amount of burn, while the clock increases vs combo. Magma Jet gives the deck additional card quality, which is also very nice. A draw package of 4 Confidant, 4 Magma Jet, and 2 Top has been performing very well for me.

I also added more mass board sweepers in the form of Engineered Explosives. This gives me diversity against cards like Pithing Needle. Most importantly, it's one of the most effecient answers to EtW tokens. It's strong vs Threshold and it's also strong vs tons of other stuff, like Manaless Ichorid for example.

The lone Tombstalker isn't a big issue with Confidant due to the increase of library manipulation and it's a nice additional finisher that dodges EE and Deed.

10 Fetchlands, 8 Sorceries, 8 Instants, 7 Enchantments, and 5 Artifacts has been consistently growing my Tarmogoyfs to enormous proportions.

I run the 10 fetches because it gives me increases shuffle effects for Top and also allows me to more efficiently fetch out the basics (mainly the Forest, which was impossible on the 4 Delta/4 Mire config).

As far as the sideboard goes, I'm positive that I want the 12 cards listed. Unmask improves my combo matchup and Engineered Plague improves my Goblins matchup. Extirpate improves my Thresh and Control matchups (it is amazing to hit win conditions) and it's also solid vs combo. I have no clue what the remaining 3 should be... I'm not entirely sure what bad matchups this deck has (and of the bad matchups, which decks are actually present enough in the metagame to actually be a concern).

[Daeniel]

I like the deck, I really like the idea of playing those 3 colors together. However, I'm wondering what are the main difference between this deck and a more "regular" UGr threshold deck; ok, you get some distruction and some cheap CD (Bobs), but Thresh still has counter and cantrips.

Why should you decide to play this instead of the other deck? Anyway, I'm quite curious... I will try it :wink:

The only thing is... why seal of fire? Ok, it pumps the Goyfs, but is it enough? What about chain lightining or something else?

I'm also wondering about the two Tops...

[thefreakaccident]

gauntlet thrown, gauntlet caught, now I must bludgen you over the head with said gauntlet... LETS KICK THIS PIG!!!


does this mean that no progressive content will be added?

no, not at all... actually I think the deck looks quite solid, and the reason nobody is giving any suggestions is because there are no suggestions to make.

it is hard to polish a deck that already looks like it has been finalized.

perhapes I could simply ask you some good questions to get the ball rolling...

tombstalker + confidant... has this ever been an issue, at least once?

unmask in the SB?

no rolling earthquake for ETW tokens in Sb?


what are some MUs outside threshold and goblins (which look in your favor already)?

it seems that you would be using your mana every turn, has that affected shade as a beatstick?

have you considered hypnotic specter... I think he is one of the best black creatures ever printed (could be just me)...

how do you get rid of opposing Tarmogoyfs?(besides killing them all with deed or explosives)

how often is it affordable to set explosives at 2? (like against pikula or another black based aggro-control with a creature curve of 2)


those were my questions for ya.

[Nosomo.]

Well for the maindeck it looks like you have inefficient burn. I would suggest Chain lighning instead of seal of fire because even though it is a sorcery chain does 3 damage which I think would help you more. Instead of Magma Jet I suggest Incinerate. It costs the same but does 3 damage, and also I do not see the point of scry in this except for confidant flip (Tombstalker flip FTL) but if you get 1 sensei online Incinerate becomes better, but since you only run 2 of them I am not sure about about the swirch just a thought.

no rolling earthquake for ETW tokens in Sb?
I guess 6 answers MB is not enough?

unmask in the SB?
Couldn't agree more. Why run this sb, yes it may be a good opening but you run 19 B maindeck. Less if you board out the Deed's if they are running Solidarity. I would suggest Therapy, because you know what they are playing by that point so a good name will by you some time for more discard.

[Belgareth]

To me it looks like a slower and probably less efficient version of the Gagomy deck from U.S Natationals.

Decklist for reference:

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Engineered Explosives

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kird Ape
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Tarmogoyf

Enchantments
4 Seal Of Fire


Instants
4 Lightning Bolt

Legendary Artifacts
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Sorceries
3 Call Of The Herd
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach

Basic Lands
1 Swamp

Lands
4 Badlands
4 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland

I think the problem is your trying to play slow control and faster aggro/control in the same deck and the elements lack synergy.

[gmorakis]

This deck should obviously have been called Black Christmas... duh! Seriously though, it looks pretty solid. I do agree that Chain Lightning is probably better than Seal here, though enchantments are probably the hardest permanent type to come by in the 'yard. The Magma Jets should definitely stay in, however. They are freakin' amazing combined with Bob and in general. Just my 2 cents.

[Maveric78f]

The Hanni's list more looks like the Bgw I posted than the one you built. The most significant weakness of this deck comparing to the Bgw version would be the lack of grunt and the MD ability to deal with graveyard, the lack of a tutor named enlightened and the lack of universal removal (vindicate). You added some burn in a control deck, which is not necessarily the best strategy. The only significant addition would be the magma jet for card quality... Well, I'm not convinced at all...

[Phantom]

Well, I can certainly attest to the power of such a build, having already posted something remarkably similar (last post in GAGOMY). I have to question the Deed and top though. There is no need for a deck like this to run this many dedicated control cards (or for that matter, dedicated aggro cards). They deck CAN play control, but it can also play aggro amazingly well, and the last thing you want to do when playing aggro is draw a deed or top.

Especially with the wonderful addition of explosives, there is simply no0 need for a board sweeper that hits all your guys. And 4 Confidant and 4 Jet (love the jets btw) should be plenty of draw and card quality.

Cutting these would allow you to up your woefully low creature count. You are running a Thresh like creature base (12 critters, of which 8 are beaters) in a deck with no cantrips or counters. This has pretty poor synergy with burn, as any good control deck will handle all your creatures with ease and never get into burn range. I would say at least 4 more beaters. I picked Quirion Dryad, but some prefer Wild Mongrel or even Mogg Fanatic.

Also, I've been on the fence about Seal of Fire vs. Chain Lightning. My feeling is that 'goyf pretty much pumps himself, and the difference between a 4/5 and a 5/6 isn't worth running a worse card. The problem is, I'm not sure it's a worse card.

Thoughts?

[asi]

You could try mixing them, to find the right number of Seals/Chain Lightnings you need to do maximum damage with 'goyf taken into consideration.

I agree that there are quite little beaters in the deck. You have an impressive number of one-drops, so Kird Ape is probably not a good idea (he also negatively compares to the quality of other creatures you play).

Troll Ascetic is a quality creature that can surive Deed/Explosives on three. It is really, really mana intensive and slow, but it also has some synergie with Rancor, which goes nice with 'goyf as well.

[Hanni]

Baubles

Not terrible to suggest, but I don't really think they are needed. The are already artifacts in the deck to support Tarmogoyf... and I don't really think that slowtrips are what this deck needs. I could be wrong and it's worth testing.


However, I'm wondering what are the main difference between this deck and a more "regular" UGr threshold deck; ok, you get some distruction and some cheap CD (Bobs), but Thresh still has counter and cantrips.


Because Thresh is blue based aggro/control and this deck is black based aggro/control. Besides the obvious, this deck plays board control in addition to being aggro/control. The decks might have similar matchups against other decks but they do not have the same gameplan whatsoever. That's like saying what is the main difference between Goblins and Threshold.


The only thing is... why seal of fire? Ok, it pumps the Goyfs, but is it enough? What about chain lightining or something else?

I'm also wondering about the two Tops...

The reason I'm running Seal of Fire is because it is an enchantment to pump Goyf. Since the 1 extra point of damage that Chain Lightning does is usually unecessary against most creatures, it shouldn't matter too much. There are exceptions... like Kird Ape, Rotting Giant, Serra Avenger, etc. However, I still have other ways to deal with those things. The extra point in Chain is also better reach. Seal of Fire could easily be replaced by Chain if you prefer it. I like running the Seals because making consistent 5/6 and 6/7 Goyfs is the shit.

The Top's are also an incredible draw quality engine. This deck plays board control (in addition to aggro/control) and thusly likes to be in the late game as much as it likes to be in the early game. Top gives the deck constant card quality, especially in addition to the other components (Confidant, Magma Jet, fetchlands). Since this deck doesn't utilize cantrips like Threshold does or raw card draw like Landstill does (aside from Confidant), Top is very nice to have in play. I'm only running 2 because they aren't actually essential and multiples are dead.


tombstalker + confidant... has this ever been an issue, at least once?

Not yet. I just don't see Confidant hitting a 1-of happening with any consistency to matter. The lone Tombstalker itself has won me quite a few games though.


unmask in the SB?



Couldn't agree more. Why run this sb, yes it may be a good opening but you run 19 B maindeck. Less if you board out the Deed's if they are running Solidarity. I would suggest Therapy, because you know what they are playing by that point so a good name will by you some time for more discard.

I love Unmask. Especially with Hymn MD instead of Cabal Therapy and no Dark Ritual, Unmask is very good vs fast paced combo. Oftentimes against decks like Belcher or TES, 1 Duress simply isn't enough to stop them from going off. Hitting them with Duress and Unmask turn 1 can often be crippling. Also don't forget that Unmask can still be hardcasted for 4 mana later on if nothing else. I suppose Cabal Therapy could replace the Unmasks in the SB. I haven't had any reason to make that sort of switch though. MD I run 19 black spells but I typically bring in the Unmasks and Extirpates which bumps me up to 27 black spells (for now I've been dropping the 1cc burn spells for them).


no rolling earthquake for ETW tokens in Sb?


That sounds like an awesome idea that I hadn't considered. I will be running 3 R Quakes in the last 3 sideboard spots.


what are some MUs outside threshold and goblins (which look in your favor already)?


Since this deck is aggro/control (and a hybrid at that), most of it's matchups against the entire field are either favorable or usually no worse than 50/50. I'm not really sure at this point what any actual %'s are. I have some matchup data for the B/w/g Deadguy Rock deck I was working on (in the thread for it) and I'm sure the matchup data is somewhat similar. The additional burn gives this deck a better Goblins matchup compared to that deck. The additional Engineered Explosives should give this deck a better Thresh and Combo matchup as well.


it seems that you would be using your mana every turn, has that affected shade as a beatstick?

have you considered hypnotic specter... I think he is one of the best black creatures ever printed (could be just me)...


I don't really find myself spending mana every single turn... I mean, Deed and EE can be mana intensive, but those spells aren't being played every turn. Otherwise, the rest of the decks curve is extremely low. Top can be mana intensive over time, but it's still not negatively affecting Shade very much. Shade is an awesome beatstick. The whole concept around this deck is to keep the table clear and then drop bombs. 9/8 Shades and 6/7 Goyfs fit the gameplan perfectly.

Specter is a 3cc 2/2 flyer. The way this deck is designed, I'm not attempting to disrupt the opponent constantly. I don't run any LD. Making the opponent discard randomly per attack isn't bad but it's not something this deck is really concerned about. This deck wants to keep the table clear and smack with fatties. Specter is not a fatty... and 3 mana for 2 power is horrible for the gameplan. It doesn't hurt to try it out... I've just never been a fan of Specter. Especially without Ritual, I just don't see him doing a whole lot for me in this deck.


how do you get rid of opposing Tarmogoyfs?(besides killing them all with deed or explosives)


Getting blocked or blocking with my own Goyf/Shade + burn spell, Deed, EE. The opponent randomly discarding it from Hymn. Those seem like more than enough ways to answer a 4-of in opposing decks.


how often is it affordable to set explosives at 2? (like against pikula or another black based aggro-control with a creature curve of 2)

When to use the board sweepers require lots of situational factors. What is the game state? I typically don't overcommit. I will either play 1 fatty at a time or none at all. Once the opponent overcommits a ton of 2cc threats, if he or she does, then I'll gladly pop EE for 2. Most of the time, I'll have an extra fatty in hand to drop after I clear the board. Like I said, it really depends on the situation.


Well for the maindeck it looks like you have inefficient burn.

The burn isn't mean to be effecient in the idea of burning out my opponent. The burn is simply meant to burn away creatures that hit the table. Most creatures will either die from the 2 burn damage... those that won't usually will survive 3 damage as well. There are a few exceptions, such as Serra Avenger etc. Chain Lightning is a fine replacement for Seal of Fire if you prefer, as I discussed above. I just like growing my Goys huge. However, there is no way in hell I would even begin to consider dropping Magma Jet for Incinerate. Magma Jet not only acts as removal and even reach, it gives me additional card quality. Since this deck lacks cantrips like Threshold does yet still plays an aggro/control gameplan, the card quality it gives me is incredible. Magma Jet is definitely a mainstay. You say that Incinerate is better with Top out... I disagree. After several turns, dead cards will accumulate on top of library from Top. The deck won't always hit a fetchland to shuffle that garbage away. Magma Jet can put 2 of the dead cards to bottom. This isn't always going to be the case but it has occured in several games.


To me it looks like a slower and probably less efficient version of the Gagomy deck from U.S Natationals.

I think the problem is your trying to play slow control and faster aggro/control in the same deck and the elements lack synergy.

While I see a few similarities, I don't see why the other deck is more efficient and faster. My deck is playing a different gameplan. That deck looks like it's trying to play an aggro game with a little discard and a little burn. My deck focuses alot more on control. How is that deck faster, anyway? My deck utilizes fatties, that deck utilizes fatties.. and I prefer Shade over Negator. Does Kird Ape make the deck really that much faster than mine? I don't see how Jitte speeds the deck up either. My deck wants to keep the table clear, drop a bomb, and do as much damage as possible in that time frame. If things get out of whack, I have reset buttons to reclear the board and repeat the process. Once the opponents life is low enough, I use burn as reach. I run a lower threat count; that doesn't necessarily mean my clock is slower.

How does combining the elements of aggro/control and board control lack synergy? I've seen other people say this as well. I think the synergy is uncanny. I run a low threat count of fatties... 1 guy can easily go the distance. I clear the table, drop a fatty, and go the distance. If the table gets cluster fucked, I simply clear the table again, drop a fatty, and go the distance. If my fatty gets removaled, I drop another fatty. Sooner or later, the opponent will be in burn range. If I'm playing against board control, I can sideboard in the Rolling Earthquakes and win the game without even damaging the opponent in the combat phase.


This deck should obviously have been called Black Christmas... duh!

Well, the word Ale pretty much means Black. Deadguy Ale is a B/w Homebrew. Xmas Ale, or Christmas Ale, is a B/r/g Homebrew. It really doesn't matter what you call the deck. I like the name Xmas Ale, so that's what I used.


The Hanni's list more looks like the Bgw I posted than the one you built. The most significant weakness of this deck comparing to the Bgw version would be the lack of grunt and the MD ability to deal with graveyard, the lack of a tutor named enlightened and the lack of universal removal (vindicate). You added some burn in a control deck, which is not necessarily the best strategy. The only significant addition would be the magma jet for card quality... Well, I'm not convinced at all...

Well, let's see. I created a B/g/w Deadguy Rock deck quite a while ago. The link to it is in my sig. I decided to drop white for red for an improved Goblins matchup and tossed in EE for an improved Threshold and Combo matchup. That's what this decklist is. How any of that derives from your Bgw list, I have no clue. I don't see why this deck needs MD graveyard hate... is the meta that graveyard dependant at the moment? Grunt + Goyf = I wouldn't run them in the same deck. If MD yard hate was necessary, I'd MD Extirpates. Since I don't think MD yard hate is necessary, I won't MD Extirpates.

I don't see why I'd want to run Enlightened Tutor. E Tutor is card disadvantage and sets the deck back on tempo. I don't run any artifacts/enchantments that are important enough that I want to tutor for them. Confidant, Jet, and Top have been more than enough of a draw engine for me.

Vindicate is a great spell. Without the LD frame, I'd rather just run burn though. Deed and EE can answer most of what Vindicate can answer. Burn is much stronger against Goblins. Burn gives me better reach against board control decks too. Magma Jet gives me the additional card quality I wanted.

I'm not sure why you are trying to compare my B/r/g deck to your B/w/g deck. However, I also have a B/w/g deck. The reason I dropped red for white has already been explained numerous times. More than likely, the improvements this makes compared to my B/w/g deck probably applies to your B/w/g deck as well. It would have made more sense if you would have posted in my B/w/g Deadguy Rock thread and asked which version would be better. Why should someone play U/G/w Thresh over U/G/r Thresh? Because they are different decks.


Well, I can certainly attest to the power of such a build, having already posted something remarkably similar (last post in GAGOMY). I have to question the Deed and top though. There is no need for a deck like this to run this many dedicated control cards (or for that matter, dedicated aggro cards). They deck CAN play control, but it can also play aggro amazingly well, and the last thing you want to do when playing aggro is draw a deed or top.


I haven't checked the forums out in a while, I haven't seen your build. Why do I run Deed though? Because the gameplan for my deck is to clear the table and drop a fatty. It's a hybrid deck... it's aggro/control and board control blended. This allows the deck to change gameplans based on the situation, giving the deck more outs to situations. More importantly than all of that though, I run 6 board sweepers because I like that style of play. There are so many different directions that decks nowadays can go in, with very few actually being superior to one another (go look at the Thresh threads for example and see how many different variations there are for both splashes). For that reason, I'm running 6 board sweepers. This deck has been performing very well for me, I see no reason to change my gameplan. I don't play aggro like your deck does. I play control. Control, control. Then I drop a fatty and attack with it for as long as I can before it gets removed or the table gets cluster fucked. Then I clear the table and repeat the process. If I topdeck a Deed while I'm attacking with a fatty, oh well. If I don't need to use the Deed, that probably means I'm winning anyway. Top is always amazing to have in play, so unless it's the second one, I'm always happy to topdeck one.

Another thing to is... while EE is better against EtW tokens, I like Deed much better than EE. EE is awful vs Goblins. Deed is far stronger vs them. EE is awful against Affinity. Deed is far stronger vs them. EE is awful vs manlands. Deed is far stronger vs them. So on and so forth. Both cards have their pros and cons. I find Deed to be more powerful. I'd run Deed over EE if I had to choose only 1. I think I'd rather run both though. Another thing to remember is that my running of 6 board sweepers improves my Threshold matchup alot... how is your Thresh matchup? I would think your U/G/r Thresh matchup would be awful, no?


Cutting these would allow you to up your woefully low creature count. You are running a Thresh like creature base (12 critters, of which 8 are beaters) in a deck with no cantrips or counters.

There is a reason why I run a low creature count. I'm running board sweepers. I don't want to drop more than 1 guy at a time. If I run more than 12 guys, I'll have extra guys clogged up in my hand all the time. I cannot overcommit with this deck. That's the whole reason why I run Goyf and Shade as my beaters... I only need 1 in play at a time because they are so large. I'm fairly certain that the 4 Confidant, 4 Magma Jet, and 2 Top are enough to keep me drawing into guys when I need one... I might not run actual cantrips, but those cards serve a very similar function. I'm also running more burn than you, so I'm not as dependant on the combat phase.

---

As a sidenote, I don't see why people insist on coming in the thread and trying to compare it to their own deck and then asking me why my version is any better. My deck doesn't have the same gameplan as Gagomy and it doesn't even have the same colors as B/g/w. =/ Oh well.

---

I appreciate the feedback so far, keep it coming.

SB
+3 Rolling Earthquake

To challenge a few things: Is E Plague even necessary in the board anymore with R Quake in there now?

If not, what else should I run in the SB?

[zulander]

I agree with seal of fire over chain lightning. The thing that's most important against goblins is dealing damage at instant speed, which is why playing seal of fire is better than chain.

I have to question your card choice of deed. Have you tested out pyroclasm over deed? You say if the board gets clustered you just wipe it and play a fatty again. Why not just play a card that will wipe their board and keep your goyfs/stalker/shade intact? The only decks that cluster the board continuously is goblins and ETW tokens, both of which lose to pyroclasm.

[Hanni]

Rolling Earthquake MD instead of Deed MD is an option, but then that leaves me without the ability to answer artifacts and enchantments as effeciently. I suppose I could always run Deed or even Krosan Grip in the board instead and run the Quakes MD. That is something that needs tested. My biggest argument for Deed was the fact that I wanted 6 mass sweepers MD... since Quake would simply be a replacement, it's worth testing.

However, one important function of Deed that isn't something one would think of right away is the fact that Deed can answer large creatures easier than Quake can. Deed answers opposing Goyfs better, for example. Since I'm running burn and not StP or Vindicate, I'm gonna be extremely reliant on EE to answer Goyfs and such. So again, Quake in place of Deed needs tested. I find them both to be very strong and at this point, it seems to be more of a metagame decision.

[Finn]

Hanni, your land count is so small now that I bet you are in want of black mana for effective Shades. I bet you would do well to experiemnt w/out them.

[Hanni]

I run 20 lands, 2 of which don't produce black mana. I actually run the exact same amount of black sources as most B/w Deadguy decks and even my B/w/g Deadguy Rock deck (22 lands, 4 of which are Wasteland). I've only tested this version a handful of times but I would never cut the Shades. The Goyfs + Shades are what make the deck so strong, IMO.

[Finn]

Very true on both points.

What I am thinking is that there are really only 8 actual lands that produce black (Pikula had 15), and only four of them are basic lands (he had 10). It may be gray area, but in my experience, there are enough occasions (Wasteland, Magus of the Moon, Price of Progress, etc.) that you may not have enough black-mana lands out to really make the Shade as good as it can be from time to time. You may get a Bayou wasted and then decide to fetch the Mountain (and not Badlands) and in the same game. Just that little bit can have a huge impact.

Well, whatever. 'Twas but a thought.

EDIT: Negator in that spot? It would reduce the pressure on the black mana a bit.

[aTn]

As for sideboard suggestions: Krosan Grip/Ancient Grudge, Pithing Needle.

I think E. Plague is not necessary if you play something like 4 Rolling Earthquake (or x Rolling E. + y Pyroclasm, for a total of 4) (SB) + 3 EE (MD). I think you'd have enough redundancy to manage EtW and you'd probably give Goblins a very hard time.

I'd probably test without the Shades and enlarge the creature base to contain Kird Apes and maybe Mogg Fanatics. I'll also test Quirion Dryad (with a decklist with a sligh tendency towards Dryad-Sligh).

I think Negator is not the way to go; he's not that hot with Pyroclasm or Rolling Earthquake, unless you can get him on a horse. I especially don't like him in an environment of red based decks.


U.S Natationals

Hehe...