[Deck] Green Death

[SuckerPunch]

If you're playing an aggro deck that isn't Goblins, it's almost guaranteed to be subpar if it's not running 4 Tarmogoyf. It's that good.

This quote by Zilla, while one that I certainly disagree with (Fairie Stompy and Red Death) are most certainly not subpar IMO, got my mind whirring.

Green Suicide was a viable alternative even before Tarmogoyf. I and I am sure many others used to run fairly strong Suicide decks splashing green for Rancor and Giant Growth before Red Death even. So why wouldn't the splash be viable now that goyf was printed.

The list quite obviously ripped off of Anwar's incredibly solid Red Death shell. Why fix what wasn't broken. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have room for improvement.

Green Suicide

//Disruption
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Dark Confidant/Nantuko Shade/Wretched Anurid/Rotting Giant

//Other
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rancor
4 Berserk/Smother/Jitte

//Lands
7 Swamp
3 Bayou
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland

//Sideboard
3 Jitte
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
4 Dystopia

Every creature you play absolutely must be dealt with. They are all crazy fast clocks that put tons of pressure on your opponent. And Rancor makes them all even more of a problem. So I think it's a fair trade off for lack of being able to kill X/3s.

The only reason to even consider Giant Growth over Rancor is because Growth protects Hypnotic Specter. But I don't think it's worth it.

Feeding Goyf - Unless you are playing storm combo, you are guarenteed to get a land, sorcery and creature into the yard (if your opponent can't counter or kill even one of your creatures, you've already won given how solid all your creatures are). 4 Dark Ritual combined with the fact that virtually every deck runs instants and you run 8 discard spells usually means you can count on an instant in the yard as well. So Goyf will be a 4/5 atleast, posing a nice pain in the ass for goblins. But there's a great chance that it will be even bigger thanks to your discard that randomly hits artifacts and enchantments.

One thing that concerns me is the occasionaly dissynergy between Giant and Tarmogoyf. It's worrisome enough that I am considering Wretched Anurid in place of Rotting Giant.

[technogeek5000]

This list has absolutely no removal, i would suggest running jittes maindeck. Also, i dont know if i would run shades in this deck. You have giant, negator, and tarmogoyf for big creatures so it will always be subpar to these cards. If it were my deck i would replace the shades with confidants because it will help you find you big creatures. Normally with goyf, giant, and negator their removal will rarely be targeting bob and if it does then your larger creatures will run them down.

Also beserks are begging to be put in the list, though they are pricey.

[SuckerPunch]

Good idea.

I cut Nantuko Shade as you suggested and added Dark Confidant to the list of cards fighting with Rotting Giant for inclusion.

Berserk seems iffy without pump. Many times, it's just a very $$$ Might of Old Krosa. It's vulnerable to removal in it's own way. But with Goyf or Negator or Rancor, it can be more. So it's definately worth trying.

As for removal. I've always been a huge fan of Smother. It doesn't gain your opponent life slowing your win by a turn like Swords to Plowshares does. And when desperate, it can even save your butt when your Negator gets Shrapnel Blasted or something. And it deals with 95% of the creatures in legacy, including Dreadnought which I promise you will be nudging it's way into the format very soon. :wink: But Jitte may overall be better.

[Cavius The Great]

I came up with a superior "Green Death" deck that uses pro-white black creatures and pump spells such as Rancor a few months ago. Pro-white is so good in this format it's not even funny. I also think that there's an old thread on this forum that initially came up with the name "Green Death". I named my black weenie pro white innovation "Sludge Army" so that people can differentiate the differences between the two decks. I honestly have to say though, I have the best "Green death" variant ever concieved and feel that my name is noteworthy in the conception of the deck. Let me know if you guys wish to see the list. I'll only post it by popular demand, even though it really should have a thread on it's own.

Why brag about a list if you aren't going to share it?

-PR

[SuckerPunch]

I came up with a superior "Green Death" deck that uses pro-white black creatures and pump spells such as Rancor a few months ago. Pro-white is so good in this format it's not even funny. I also think that there's an old thread on this forum that initially came up with the name "Green Death". I named my black weenie pro white innovation "Sludge Army" so that people can differentiate the differences between the two decks. I honestly have to say though, I have the best "Green death" variant ever concieved and feel that my name is noteworthy in the conception of the deck. Let me know if you guys wish to see the list. I'll only post it by popular demand, even though it really should have a thread on it's own.

If anything, white is getting used less and less.

Many thres players switched over to the red splash after goyf got printed. Angel Stompy is almost nonexistant.

There really aren't many decks in the format that run Swords or white creatures.

I am interested in seeing your list though and any insights you have to offer on the green splash.

It's sad to find out that the "best green death variant ever concieved" was already post though. How about we just try and make this list the second best one then. :wink:

[Cavius The Great]

If anything, white is getting used less and less.

Many thres players switched over to the red splash after goyf got printed. Angel Stompy is almost nonexistant.

There really aren't many decks in the format that run Swords or white creatures.

I am interested in seeing your list though and any insights you have to offer on the green splash.

Running Lightning Bolt over Swords becuase of Goyf doesn't make any sense. If anything people would run STP over Bolt becuase Goyf can get so huge and be out of bolt range. I don't know what you're metagame is like, but STP is probably the single most popular removal spell played in this format.

[SuckerPunch]

Not by a long shot.

Goyf gave thresh enough threats that it could make do without Mystic Enforcer. That's one reason a lot of thresh players went to red.

I really don't see many decks with StP top 8ing anywhere. Maybe you can do a quick percentage but I doubt the card is in more than 1/3rd - 1/4th of the field.

[technogeek5000]

Umm no need to flame anyone. I believe that you are not correct on this one. The only deck that realy poses a threat thats white is Death and taxes which is becoming mroe and more played. White thresh only has mage and deadguy is underplayed. There is no need for Black knights in this list or for that matter any sui list.

[Cavius The Great]

Everybodies metagame is different. In the northeast STPs run rampant and so does Angel Stompy. My buddy Tivadar got 1st place with Blue/White Angel stompy a few weeks ago in a 44 man tourny and he walked away with 4 sea drakes. I also reside in a metagame where STPs run rampant. You also will see the occassional white weenie, Pox/white, clerics and white variants of Landstill. I play R/G beatz and Blood Knight has been a godsend just becuase of the fact that it's pro white. I even won me a game against Landstill when I got two Blood knights out in a game at GP: Colombus. I won so many games becuase of Blood Knight just becuase it is pro white. Blood knight eats alive Jotun Grunt which is another card that sees alot of play. There are so many decks that die to pro-white creatures it's not even funny and it's something to always keep in mind, to say the least.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

15 creatures is way too few to run pump spells, much less 8.

Why not run a couple Witnesses to recur your best disruption? Seems better than Confidant. Rather than random cards off the top, you get the best disruption piece you've used so far, or a double-threat.

[technogeek5000]

Everybodies metagame is different. In the northeast STPs run rampant and so does Angel Stompy. My buddy Tivadar got 1st place with Blue/White Angel stompy a few weeks ago in a 44 man tourny and he walked away with 4 sea drakes. I also reside in a metagame where STPs run rampant. You also will see the occassional white weenie, Pox/white, clerics and white variants of Landstill. I play R/G beatz and Blood Knight has been a godsend just becuase of the fact that it's pro white. I even won me a game against Landstill when I got two Blood knights out in a game at GP: Colombus. I won so many games becuase of Blood Knight just becuase it is pro white. Blood knight eats alive Jotun Grunt which is another card that sees alot of play. There are so many decks that die to pro-white creatures it's not even funny and it's something to always keep in mind, to say the least.

Yah i play there to buddy. Even though the NE is home to angel stompy varients and pox decks they do not show a large enough presence to justify running pro white creatures.

@Spatula: I would agree with you if witness was 2G. But for a deck that splashes green i believe getting 2 green might be diffucult making this card occasionally dead in your hand. I have been running confidants in my sui black build for a while and they are great at getting me the tools i need to pull out the win. Also they dont work with rituals which is the real reason to run this deck.

[SuckerPunch]

I think you are right about Confidant. It belongs in this list.

This deck isn't meant to be quite as fast as Red Death. But it's meant to have more resilient damage sources. Rancor keeps coming back to do more. And Goyf is an incredible early mid game threat.

You cripple your opponent with disruption, while beating with any one of your threats for a few turns for the win.

Where do you guys fall on the Berserk vs. Smother vs. Jitte debate?

[technogeek5000]

I think if you want target removal then snuff out is probably your best bet. Free removal is always great.

Edit:
I came up with a superior "Green Death" deck that uses pro-white black creatures and pump spells such as Rancor a few months ago. Pro-white is so good in this format it's not even funny. I also think that there's an old thread on this forum that initially came up with the name "Green Death". I named my black weenie pro white innovation "Sludge Army" so that people can differentiate the differences between the two decks. I honestly have to say though, I have the best "Green death" variant ever concieved and feel that my name is noteworthy in the conception of the deck. Let me know if you guys wish to see the list. I'll only post it by popular demand, even though it really should have a thread on it's own.

I just read the rest of your first post and im a little disgusted. What gives you the right to talk like this. When you post stuff like this you sound very arrogant. Any sui list that runs black knight isnt the best varient because it needs to have knight removed. Dont talk shit if you cant back it up.

[Galroth]

I've had quite some experience with Green Death. I'm actually surprised someone opened a thread for it as you can find a pretty extensive discussion of Green Death in the Red Death thread.

@Spatula - To answer an easy question. Eternal isn't here because despite it being an excellent creature the manabase doesn't like supporting GG. Just like Red Death doesn't like RR. The deck is able to, but it would rather not; and there are several other options which are comparable or better.

Some more general notes about Green Death. It lacks removal where Red Death has it in its most versatile form, burn. This simple fact is what makes Red Death better (i.e. Red Death has made tournament placings). Red Death's shell is very tight and Green Death should mimic it down to a very few number of replacements, of which most are obvious. If you want removal in this deck... you're going to make the rest of the deck sub-par in order to add that removal. Just trust me when I say sideboard it, and sideboard it in the form of Jitte. The reason to play Green Death is for the massive creatures and the pure power of beatdown that Rancor and Berserk offer. It's the tradeoff of going Green instead of Red. I suppose you shouldn't take this theory without results, so test it you feel the need.

Next point of importance... Green Death is even more creature reliant that Red Death. You need a target to Rancor or Berserk, and once you have no creatures on the board (or they have control of the board) then you're dead in the water where Red Death could pull through. If anything you should run up to 18 creatures, not cut a creature. I don't care how ridiculously good Beserk and double Berserk can be. If you don't have a creature to target, it's worthless. Cut a Berserk or a Rancor (my preference is the Berserk).

@Suckerpunch - Actually I believe the deck is meant to be as fast, or even faster than Red Death. Rancor over two turns does more damage than a burn spell; Berserk does as well. And your creatures are as large if not larger than Red Death's. Your kill is simply quicker... if it lasts. The problem is that there is only a single game plan: the creature kill. This is why Green Death is actually less resilient - because it doesn't have the option of going to a second game plan if the creature threats fail. I'm not sure of your play experience with the deck, but if you test it out a little longer I think you'll see exactly what I'm saying. Incidentally Green Death is one of the few decks in legacy with a turn 2 kill :) (Ritual Negator, Berserk, Berserk - A fun side note, but a very rare occurence.)

Finally the creature debate: As mentioned earlier you're reliant on your creatures to win, as such you need to find them. Confidant does deserve a spot merely for this. Plus a Rancored Confidant 'ain't' bad. I do think Green Death should run 18 creatures instead of 16. An ending point for this post on Green Death; and the most contentious point I bring up: run Flesh Reaver. My preference is 3x Confidant and 3x Reaver in my build. Trample negates many of the reasons he wasn't run in Red Death. Simply put he's better than Shade the first few turns, and you don't want to see a long game. This is one you'll absolutely have to test, and even then your meta may not allow it. But my experience is that Rancor or Berserk on Flesh Reaver make him no less dangerous to play than Negator.

[SuckerPunch]

Those are some great points. So is this akin to what you are suggesting?

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Flesh Reaver
3 Dark Confidant

//Other
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rancor
3 Duress
2 Berserk

I'm a little iffy on Flesh Reaver, esp given that you have 2 potentially as deadly creatures in Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid you could run instead. And Flesh Reaver seems bad in a deck that doesn't have removal to get rid of chump blockers. But seeing as how the rest of your anaylisis is spot on, I will try it out and get back to you.

Also do you by any chance remember which page of the Red Death thread that discussion of Green Death occured? It might shed some light on developing the deck.

[Bane of the Living]

I have to side with Spat here and push for Eternal Witness. She seems like the other reason to be playing green. It might be worth shoving some Overgrown Tombs in the deck to be assured you can cast her. The ability to amplify land or hand destruction in a given senario is hugemongous.

Getting back dead goyfs also sounds like awesome sauce. Berserk looks terrible in the deck, please take it out.

[Nihil Credo]

21 lands should be enough to support two copies of Cursed Scroll. Lacking burn, it can provide the necessary reach over a lost board. Plus it's just nasty during Tarmogoyf fights.

[Versus]

I was thinking of this the other day. Rancor and Negator are great synergy and throwing Berserk in there is just crazy. Also if you end up agaisnt Thresh/Survial and SB in the Dystopias you will have little effect on you as you'll get you're Rancor right back as well.

[outsideangel]

I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be running a deck whose only answer to Lackey-on-the-play is Dark Ritual -> blocker. Snuff Out might have a place here.

Also cutting Shade seems really bad. He's such a powerhouse mid-late game.

Oh, and also you can run Deed, if it strikes your fancy.

[theFury]

Hi, first post here. I posted a very similar list to this on the wizard's boards a while back. I've been testing this deck quite a bit and would like to make some suggestions.

Jittes are probably too slow for this deck's clock. It might, however, be interesting to pursue a more controllish build, possibly with factories. Pernicious deed would also be interesting, but I feel that's taking the build too close to B/W/G decks like Funkbrew and MUD. Flesh Reaver, while being one of my personal favorites, is just too risky. This deck already has enough speed, and flesh reaver can easily lose the game. Stupid things happen with reaver, like you're attacking with seven life left, and in response your opponent pumps him with a giant growth. Game over.

Anyways, I think splashing some white for StP is an excellent idea. Right now, while this deck may be quick, it lacks the resiliency of standard suicide black and could use some control elements. My opinion is that this deck just wastes valuable slots on overkill: if you get out a negator first turn backed by removal you're usually already set to win the game, right?

If you don't want to splash white, you could always go for efficient black removal like Vendetta or Snuff Out. Either way, it needs something to fight off a first turn lackey. Most of the time, you aren't going to be able to race it.

[SuckerPunch]

Smother is almost as good as StP in this deck. So I would never ever splash a whole color just to run it. If this deck wasn't playing Goyf, I would consider splashing White for Jotun Grunt. But as is, not for StP.

StP gains life, remember. That means that it takes you an extra turn to kill your opponent. Smother kills 95% of the stuff that sees play in legacy, and without the life gain.

[264505]

If your running sinkhole, why not run the 4th wasteland? Mana denial sways a lot of matchups into your favor and i see no reason to not run it other than the number of lands. Red Death runs off 20 lands with 4 wastes and still consistently hits the creatures on its curve.

[Alfred]

If your running sinkhole, why not run the 4th wasteland? Mana denial sways a lot of matchups into your favor and i see no reason to not run it other than the number of lands. Red Death runs off 20 lands with 4 wastes and still consistently hits the creatures on its curve.

Why not also run Bind: AKA cantripping Sinkhole/utility?

[Phantom]

I think the problem with Bind is that it's so narrow, unlike Stifle. Could be worth a shot though.

I think the main problem here is a lack of a third splash. There is every reason to splash for removal, and no reason not to. Simply adding Tarmogoyfs to a Red Death shell would make a better deck than this. That being said, if you don't want to run anything but G/B, here are some tips:

The creature base needs some tweaking. First things first, 'goyf and Shade are the two best creatures you have available. They are cheap and they are HUGE, both swinging for four the turn after they are dropped. So they both need to be four ofs. Second are Hypy and Negator. I would cut one if not both of these 3cc guys. They are both slow. They both thrive in the same matchup (combo). They both are great off ritual, but shitty otherwise (especially Hypy). They both are better in decks that run a lot of good removal (this deck runs a little shitty removal).

I think you need to decide, Aggro, or Aggro/Control?

If you're going Aggro, I would say run a creature base like this:

8 1cc Zombies
4 Goyf
4 Negator
4 Shade

and pump them with both Rancor and Jitte. Jitte is not a great aggro card, since it's a tad slow, but it is the best removal available and makes the 1cc Zombies decent in the mid game.

If you're going AgCon, you get some more interesting choices. First, you get access to the two best removal spells GB has to offer, Deed and Damnation. In this case I think your creature base should include:

Goyf
Shade
Confidant
Witness
Unearth

And drop Rancor, Jitte, Smother (this card is not Legacy quality. No one should ever run it) and Ritual.

[SuckerPunch]

That was a pretty good post. But I don't agree with some of what you said.

The deck's shell as is is working fairly well so I'm not sure it needs a complete overhaul like you're saying.

Your second list pretty much sounds like Rock, which was never that great in legacy as it was too slow and too mana intensive that I don't think the disruption slows your opponent enough to let you win with slower creatures. I maybe wrong here. Eternal Witness is solid, but it just seems too slow. You spend one turn to cast it, and another turn to recast the disruption it got you. That's two midgames turns you spent to play one card and a vanilla 2/1

But your suggestion of 8 Zombies abusable with Rancor and Jitte certainly looks like it has a lot of potential. Plus Sarcomany ups your enchantment count too.

As for Smother, if Swords to Plowshares costed one more mana but didn't give your opponent a bunch of life and essentially one extra turn to live, would it suck? I don't think so.

I honestly think that Smother is better than a black StP would be in this particular meta and deck. StP gives your opponent 5 life to kill a Tarmogoyf, 4 life to kill a Sea Drake, and 12 life to kill a Dreadnought. With any of these, that's enough life that you essentially undid one turns worth of attack with your creatures. Tarmogoyf and Dreadnought are bustling into the format and the last high cc creature in the format, Exalted Angel, is no where to be found. I think it's time that people take a look at just how good Smother is.

That said, I am not convinced that this deck really needs removal. It has disruption, all it's creatures are huge, rancor gives them trample, and jitte acts as removal too.

So I think the case could be made that Smother isn't needed here. What I disagree with is your statement that Smother sucks in legacy.

[thefreakaccident]

Smother (this card is not Legacy quality. No one should ever run it)

no offense, bt this card is one of the most underrated rmoval spells in the game... it answers almost every significant creature in the game (warcheif, piledriver, dark confidant, nantuko shade, tarmogoyf, grunt, serra avenger, and anything else in the 0-3 cc range).

I used to run it in a mono black deck way back, have that and edict & you can kill all of thresh's creatures.

I would agree that swords is much much better, but it is an ok alternative... at least the opponent doen't gain 5 life per tarmogoyf that way.

[SuckerPunch]

It's only underrated in Legacy.

Many of the newer players are used to just borrowing tech from Extended. Smother isn't very good in formats like extended where a decent number of creatures have a cc higher than 3 run rampant.

In legacy though, I honestly can't think of a single creature that sees a decent amount of play that has a cc over 3.

[Phantom]

In legacy though, I honestly can't think of a single creature that sees a decent amount of play that has a cc over 3.

Mystic Enforcer and his red counterpart both see a fair amount. Anything in Reanimator, Magus of the Tabernacle, Ichoroid, Juggernaut, Goblin Ringleader, Siege Gang Commander, Patron of the Akki, Tombstalker, etc.

Frankly, it doesn't matter. That's not the reason Smother is unplayable (although it certainly doesn't help). Smother is unplayable not because of 4cc creatures it's unplayable because it's too slow to handle the best card in the format.

What deck has ever successfully run Smother? None. How many have tested it? Plenty (including myself). What Legacy deck runs 2cc spot removal at all? None that I can think of. That's because the first rule of Legacy is deal with Lackey. There might be a day when people hang up their green men, but today is not that day, and the Smothers go unplayed, or at least sideboarded.

[technogeek5000]

Umm my sui list runs three and i have done decent with it. I run 7 turn 1 answers to lackey(the zombies) and also i run snuff out so lackey never connects. The tournament where i got second with it (i live in CT and play less then once a month so i dont get many opportunities) smother would have made my wins easier to pull off and gave me better game against goblins then the edicts that i was running at the time.

[SuckerPunch]

I opted for 3 Wasteland instead of 4 because thats what all the latest Sui Black and Red Death lists seem to be doing.

The card that I am eyeing to be cut is Sinkhole. Yes, it randomly disrupts you opponent's manabase long enough to get a couple of extra attacks in. But just as often, it doesn't do much of anything.

This isn't Vodka Pox with 20+ land destruction effects to effectively lock out your opponents manabase. It's not even deadguy with 4 Vindicates to give you that much more ways to blow up lands. And it's not monoblack which means you have lots of great green cards (Rancor, Berserk, Tarmogoyf, and arguably even Deed) fighting edging out lots of great black threats.

So might we be better off with 17 threats and two more pump spells rather than four random land destruction spells?

[Galroth]

Mostly for Suckerpunch

From what I gather your list is pretty close to dead on what I was running.

DISRUPTION
3x Wasteland
3x Sinkhole
4x Duress
4x Hymn to Tourach
CRITTERS
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Hypnotic Specter
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Dark Confidant
3x Flesh Reaver
PUMP
4x Rancor
3x Berserk
MANA
4x Dark Ritual
4x Bayou
3x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
6x Swamp

I'd cut a sinkhole before I cut a Duress just because of the mana curve for this deck. I dislike not running a full compliment of land destruction, and I do consider the wastelands and sinkholes to be some of the weaker cards in the deck, but they're still quite important. A single turn bought by the tempo the provide can be so much larger than any other deck out there with Green Death. (Berserked Negator or Reaver for 10-8 damage is game ending too often.)

I'd also prefer to keep atleast 3 Berserk. For me it's been the perfect number. Double Berserk can be so cool, but only if you've got a creature to play it on. The problem with Berserk is that you have to have board position first, then it's awesome. That's why it's one of the first cuts from a 4x to less. It's still so powerful that I want to see one atleast once a game, so I run 3.

The deck can be so damned ridiculous, especially if your opponent kept a sub-optimal hand. Few decks can kill as fast, especially when they're not goldfishing.

I think the sideboard is the really interesting part of the deck. What do you do with it? There are so many good choices. Not only do you have all the potential of black's hot board choices (engineered plague, cabal therapy, extirpate, planar void, spot-removal, etc.); green covers some of black's glaring weaknesses (krosan grip, pernicious deeds). The options are really phenomenal. I imagine the sb will be very meta-dependant, few decks can boast a sideboard as effective as this deck can muster.

[technogeek5000]

Unless you meta is close to 40% control i dont think i would run flesh reaver. The amount of life you lose to him alongside confidant and fetches will lose you games.

Also if the curve of this deck is so bad maybe (just a suggestion) we should run chrome mox to get our 2 drops out faster.

[Versus]

I agree with techno not just for the reasons he gave, but also unless you Ritual out a Hyppy/Gator you don't have an answer for a 1st turn Lacky. Also no removal main deck makes me weary.

[TheDrunkDwarf]

I too have been toying around with the idea of a green suicide deck. Heres a few tricks you can consider:

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Mire Boa - 2/1 regenerator for 1G is pretty good, and an urborg makes him unblockable.

Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Spreading Algae - Maybe even throw in tangle wire for added disruption.

[zulander]

One of the things you have to decide is this, do you want your deck to be AGGROcontrol or agggroCONTROL. If you're looking for the first then this is the list I'd run for B/G.

Mana: 22
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

Beats: 24
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tarmogoyf

Other: 6
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption: 8
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Taurach

Sideboard: 15 (Just a suggestion, more of a metagame call)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Smother
4 Extirpate
3 Cabal Therapy

With such a low curve you can run wasteland without it taking any of your tempo. The 8 maindeck hand disruption ensures you can at least slow combo down a little bit. It will still be in combo's favor though. There are 4 MD answers to turn 1 lacky, but with this much aggro and the 6 equipment you don't have to worry as much as you generally have to. After all, you are playing the best creature in the format known as tarmogoyf.

The manabase ensures that you'll always have green for goyf as well. Cards such as rancor/river boa are up for testing as well. And if you can swing it troll ascetic seems fairly solid as well. And we can't forget about elves of the deep shadow as well if you are scared of turn 1 lackey.

[Versus]

Would Putrefy at least in the SB not be viable in Legacy? Too slow I guess?

[SuckerPunch]

Galroth, yeah your build looks solid. Not sure about the Flesh Reaver so I would love to hear your comments on how it did when you ran into aggro.

Zulander, I like your threat base a lot. But the equipment seems too mana intensive. You could be playing low cc cards like Rancor and Berserk to produce a very similar effect, but on a much faster clock.

[Galroth]

Flesh Reaver is obviously hot against combo and control. Against aggro-control he is pretty moderate. If an opposing player really want to block with one of their few creatures this is not such a bad proposition, though blocking Flesh Reaver is usually the wrong choice. Against aggro his inclusion is harder to justify. I've found that for the most part, his drawback is still worth his inclusion. The real question is whether or not Nantuko Shade, who doesn't carry the same drawback would be better. Shade is typically better against aggro decks, but the other matchups Flesh Reaver will put the opponent on a clock 1 or 2 turns quicker than Shade, and the loss in life is generally negligible.

Basically, if you're playing the beatdown I find that Flesh Reaver is better. Given the explosive nature of Green Death with its ultra quick beats, I think that's the direction the deck needs to strive for. Even when playing against aggro, if you're on the beatdown then the life loss from Flesh Reaver tends not to matter (in my experience); I attribute this primarily to the large life swings. Even if you find yourself down to 1 life and the opponent is at 8, a Berserked Flesh Reaver still kills them before you.

I know there's alot of skepticism about this choice. And frankly, if you're in a meta with lots of aggro, then Nantuko Shade may be a better choice. Shade is the better late game. I'd rather not see the late game though.

AND - before anyone mentions that Shade can beat for just as much as Reaver when cast off 2 swamp on turn 3... I point out that it is true, Shade "can" do that. But you'd really much rather spend your mana on turn 3 and 4... sometimes even turn 5 casting more spells, not pumping Shade. After your hand is depleted - that's when pumping that mana into Shade becomes worthwhile.

[SuckerPunch]

I was never comparing Flesh Reaver to Shade. It's pretty clear that one is an early game card and the other a midgame card.

I was comparing Flesh Reaver to Rotting Giant/Wretched Anurid. Against combo and control, 75% of the time, they kill on the same turn.

Against aggro though, I think they are much better. Because as others pointed out, this deck is more control than aggro. It plays a fewer number of threats and more disruption. And it can pretty easily be overwhelmed by Goblins with a slightly poor hand. The last thing you want to do there is to let them chump block their weenies to do you four points of damage.

[Cavius The Great]

One of the things you have to decide is this, do you want your deck to be AGGROcontrol or agggroCONTROL. If you're looking for the first then this is the list I'd run for B/G.

Mana: 22
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Wasteland
4 Dark Ritual

Beats: 24
4 Sarcomancy
4 Dark Confidant
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Tarmogoyf

Other: 6
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Disruption: 8
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Taurach

Sideboard: 15 (Just a suggestion, more of a metagame call)
4 Krosan Grip
4 Smother
4 Extirpate
3 Cabal Therapy

With such a low curve you can run wasteland without it taking any of your tempo. The 8 maindeck hand disruption ensures you can at least slow combo down a little bit. It will still be in combo's favor though. There are 4 MD answers to turn 1 lacky, but with this much aggro and the 6 equipment you don't have to worry as much as you generally have to. After all, you are playing the best creature in the format known as tarmogoyf.

The manabase ensures that you'll always have green for goyf as well. Cards such as rancor/river boa are up for testing as well. And if you can swing it troll ascetic seems fairly solid as well. And we can't forget about elves of the deep shadow as well if you are scared of turn 1 lackey.

Do you really need 4 Overgrown Tomb in a deck with only a total of 8 green cards including SB? Seems kind of redundant.

[from Cairo]

One of the most appealing cards I would think about adding to the main or SB would be Yixlid Jailor. I was thinking of trying something along these lines, cause with all the discard and the ability to shut down Breakfast/Ichorid, it seems like it would have a favorable match up vs Thresh and combo, which seem like the best decks right now.

Something like..

4 Sarcomancy
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Yixlid Jailor
3 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Spectre

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smother
3 Vendetta
1 Contagion

3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Bayou
5 Swamp
1 Overgrown Tomb

SB
xx Perish
xx Krosan Grip
xx Putrify
xx Root Maze
xx Null Rod
xx Engineered Plague

Leaves you with 7 Sac Lands, 11 Instants, 8 Sorceries, 4 Enchantments, 3 Artifacts and 20 Creatures, seems like a pretty good base of different card types.

[Tacosnape]

Skyshroud Elite's not a bad choice as a 1-drop.

Also, given how many spells in this deck cost two mana, a pair or a triad of Chrome Moxes seem like they'd be a natural fit.

I'd also contemplate Cabal Therapy in that last removal slot. It can act as pre-emptive removal and seems awesome in a deck with 24 creatures.

[from Cairo]

Yea could Drop 2x 1cc guys from the above list and 1x random removal spell to fit in 3 Chrome Mox thats a good idea. Considering all the 2cc guys, running Chrome Mox is probably better than running extra 1cc things, when you can power out better cards.


I'd also contemplate Cabal Therapy in that last removal slot. It can act as pre-emptive removal and seems awesome in a deck with 24 creatures.

Anti-Synergy with Yixlid... otherwise /agreed.

[Zilla]

Smother is unplayable not because of 4cc creatures it's unplayable because it's too slow to handle the best card in the format.
Tarmogoyf is the best card in the format. Lion's Eye Diamond is the second. Lackey is third. The mentality that the number one rule in Legacy is to be able to answer a turn one Lackey is simply months out of date.

A lot has changed:

- Tarmogoyf has given all Thresh variants a better Goblins matchup, even game 1.

- Red Thresh has become even more popular. Lategame reach provided by burn backed by utility from Pyroclasm against Goblins and Empty the Warrens has made it extremely strong. With Tarmogoyf in the mix, Red Thresh is favored against Goblins preboard.

- The prevalence of extremely fast combo is on the rise and has been for months, which is not a positive matchup for Goblins.

These factors combine to put Goblins in a very difficult metagame position. Take a look at recent Top 8's; 6 months ago, Goblins was not only consistently putting multiples in Top 8's, it was taking first place more consistently than any other single deck. Now, it rarely appears in Top 8's, and when it does, it usually doesn't make it past the quarters. This isn't a fluke; this is a measurable and singificant trend away from Goblins.

As an aside, the same trend that's pushing Goblins out is also pushing out decks which existed specifically to deal with decks like it, e.g., Angel Stompy. Slow aggro classically beats fast aggro by benefit of having larger, higher casting creatures which trump smaller, lower casting cost creatures in the lategame. Slow aggro is simply terrible in a metagame consisting of a lot of fast combo and increasingly less fast aggro for it to beat.

Without slow aggro in the mix, there's very little in the format that Smother can't deal with. Smother is more playable in this format now than it ever has been.

[Phantom]

Without slow aggro in the mix, there's very little in the format that Smother can't deal with. Smother is more playable in this format now than it ever has been.

While I agree that it is more playable than ever, I completely disagree that it is playable today. Looking at just the T8s would be foolish. In the Gen Con top 32, there were 4 Goblin decks, so the deck is still played, and by no means finished (especially with the new expansion coming out). Also, it is very difficult to get Legacy players to hang up their decks for good since many of them only have a few and they are quite costly.

Also, if the meta ever shifts to the point where 1cc isn't necessary, then a more universal card like Rend Flesh might be the way to go.

[Bane of the Living]

While I agree that it is more playable than ever, I completely disagree that it is playable today..

Your avatar makes this even funnier.

Smother is amazing and should be seeing play in the deck. The only thing I would ever see across the table from me that it couldnt handle is an Ichorid or Mongoose.

Your not worried about killing Mongoose when you have a goyf out tho, just the Bob that will draw into removal or the opposing goyf that will block. Smother that shit!

[Galroth]

@Suckerpunch - Rotting Giant and Wretched Anurid instead of Flesh Reaver... I like both of them more than Shade. I decided to test them as opposed to Reaver. Most of the time, it mattered very little. I amost always liked Anurid less, especially against any sort of aggro. Both Giant and Anurid are in bolt range, but their drawback is less against aggro than Reaver's which may make them a better choice. Sarcophage might also be a consideration. Really, I couldn't draw too many conclusions. There were very few games where the difference between the two creatures mattered; also I simply don't have enough test games in to really feel one way or another. I'll continue to give it time and thought.

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

If Goblins is out, what reason is there to play Smother over Edict? In what other match-ups is Smother better?

[Versus]

If Goblins is out, what reason is there to play Smother over Edict? In what other match-ups is Smother better?

Unless I'm mistaken, almost any matchup. Other than Mongeese, Fledgling Dragon, Mystic Enforcer, Tombstalker, what can't it kill in Legacy?

This is what it can...

Hyppy
Negator
Carnopahge
Sarcomancy
Shade
Pump Knights
Giants
Wretches
Anurids
Confidant
Mother of Runes (possibly)
Serra Avenger
Meddling Mage
Dark Confidant
Shadowmage Infiltrator
Wild Mongrel
Pyschatog
Werebear
Goyf
River Boa
Lynx
Jotun Grunt
Cloud of Faeries
Sea Drake
Trinket Mage
Weatherseed Faeries

[SpatulaOfTheAges]

Well...

Anything untargetable(Mongoose, Troll, Gigapede), anything pro-black(Enforcer, Mother of Runes), anything above 3cc(Ichorid, Ashen Ghoul, Ringleader, Angel, Baloth/Hierarch, Stomp-Howler, Eternal Dragon).

Maybe Smother is the correct choice, I'm just curious how often the drawbacks come up; is your opponent more likely to have multiple, inequal threats, or something Smother can't kill?

[Versus]

Okay, so lets weigh the options and put together a deffinative list of what Smother can and cannot kill.

I think it's going to come down to meta...

All the listed above +
Flesh Reaver
Cephalid Illusionist
Nomads En-Kor
Shaman En-Kor

What it can't:

Mongeese
Fledgling Dragon
Mystic Enforcer
Tombstalker
Goblin Ringleader
Seige-Gang Commander
Ichorid
Karmic Guide
Kiki
Ravenous Baloth
Exalted Angel

What Blaloth are you referring to and what Angel? Sorry I'm not familiar with them.

[Jak]

Ravenous Baloth and Exalted Angel. I think smother would be the best call. But it would also be good to have an out for a big creature like angel or something.

[Versus]

Ravenous Baloth and Exalted Angel. I think smother would be the best call. But it would also be good to have an out for a big creature like angel or something.

Added.

This is why I like Putrefy here. In the controlish version anyway. It has all the reach of any other removal spell minus Spectral Lynx and Mongoose and with it the versatility to maybe split with Krosan Grip in the SB.

If it's too slow, then it's too slow, but I can't see it be tested at least. It just seems a shame splashing a color to add vesatility and still being left with sub-optimal removal.

[Galroth]

I decided I like Flesh Reaver over the other options after a bit more testing. The deciding point was that Flesh Reaver enables the turn 3 and turn 4 kills considerably more often than Giant/Anurid.

I think that if someone chooses to play Green Death, it should be for the explosive game ending plays that Rancor, Berserk, and Tarmogoyf offer. Green Death isn't suitable for a long game, it wants to keep it short as possible while playing some sort of hyper-aggro with a little bit of disruption to keep the opponent off balance just the 1 or 2 turns needed to off them. Reaver fits with that plan more.

If you're on the defense or playing a war of attrition with Green Death, it's the wrong game plan. Not that it's impossible, Tarmogoyf in particular enables that to work better than the old suite of mono-black creatures. But it's not the desired game state of this deck.

[SuckerPunch]

I'm not convinced Flesh Reaver is very good with 4 Rancor and 4 Berserk imo.

It's also quesitonable with the low number of threats.

It would work well, but only if your meta doesn't have a lot of aggro and thus lots of creature removal for all your other threats.

Could be wrong though.

[DragoFireheart]

I also don't really care for Flesh Reaver. It's a somewhat subpar card compared to man out there.

[Galroth]

Whoa... so many decklists that are just... ugly! You fools. :P

Sarcomancy, Yixlid Jailor, Sword of Fire and Ice?! I mean, really people, come on now. Were you actually serious? (Inflammatory comments are well-worth my time.) What has anyone thinking these options are better than the truly tight confines of something more reminiscent of Anwar's Red Death build? Much less, where's the theory instead of a random deck list to atleast try and convince me of testing out these options? Atleast for Yixlid jailor relegate him to the sideboard.

I've come to the opinion that Green Death is far under-rated and is probably as good if not better than Red Death and Suicide Black in the current meta. It plays better beatdown than either deck (even though it has narrower lines of aggression than Red Death). Simply put, it's creatures are stronger and Rancor and Berserk are unequaled for creature pump at a cost that is simply nuts.

What has lately swayed me to this opinion was actually a bit of testing with the inclusion of Thoughseize in the deck. Green Death always suffered a little from a manacurve that bottomed out at 4x Dark Ritual and 4x Duress. That's pretty sad for a primarily aggro deck. Red Death didn't suffer from this issue because Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning were both turn 1 plays that were also a consideration. Rancor and Berserk are not. Suicide black has its 1cc zombies or chrome mox in addition to dark ritual to just skip over the 1cc stage. Neither deck suffered from a poor curve - Green Death's curve, while not poor, was neither near optimal.

No Thoughtseize isn't any sort of revolution for the deck, and I'm sure anyone else who has been playing Green Death has also begun testing it. But I can say it's bolstered the deck enough for me to wonder why the hell I haven't seen a placing somewhere on the East Coast where tournaments are more abundant. Adding Thoughtseize cost the deck other disruption elements, 'cause there is no way in hell I'm cutting creatures (I lied, actually I dropped from 3x Confidant to 2x... he's a back-up plan anyways.) I cut a few hymns and another sinkhole - always a hard thing to do.

I'm curious, Zulander, you're running 22 mana sources, 18 total lands, 4 of which are wastelands. Are you having any mana issues? This seems precariously low for my tastes, but it's really hard to make any room in this deck. Every slot is spoken for with broken cards, my only questions are what ratios to run them in.

[SuckerPunch]

Lol, I agree with you. The deck is underrated and underplayed, and that's actually how I prefer it. Combining the best threats with the best pump and the best disruption makes it insanely strong.

And yes, Thoughtseize just made the deck better and absoultely should replace the 4x Duress.

[Clark Kant]

With the huge number of great cards that green gives this deck access to, I'm not certain that land destruction is the best possible way to use up slots.

So here's what I'm messing around with right now.

//Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

//Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Dark Confidant

//Utility
3 Rancor
3 Berserk
3 Reanimate
3 Ghastly Demise

//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bayou
4 Swamp
2 Snowcovered Swamp
2 Cabal Pit

//Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
4 Dystopia
3 Jitte

The main question mark right now seems to be.

Smother vs. Ghastly Demise

Which should this deck be running and why?

Also, the sideboard needs a ton of work. I just threw it together.

Since you guys are discussing creatures as well, I'll throw in my two cents. Goyf, Specter and Negator are a given IMO. The best options for that final slot IMO are Dark Confidant, Nantuko Shade, Oona's Prowler, Rotting Giant and Tombstalker (if you're not playing Confidants or Rotting Giants obviously).

[Atwa]

I think you should run both.

Protecting Negator from damage (blockers) can't be done properly with only 3 creature kill cards.

I think you should either play more anti-creature cards, or cut the Negator. Both options have their flaws and positives.

[Shawon]

I smiled a bit when I saw this thread.

It's funny because just a few days ago, I thought I'd update Red Death by splashing it with green for Tarmogoyf. I actually called it "Green Death."

Anyway, here's my list:

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
7 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [10E] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia

I took out Rotting Giant and Phyrexian Negator because Rotting Giant is too weak with Goyf around and Phyrexian Negator may trump a Goyf, it's still not fun taking 4 damage and saccing 4 permanents.

I replaced with the MD Duresses with MD Thoughtseize and replaced the sb Therapies with plan Duresses. And I moved the 4 Jitte in the sb to the MD and added 4 Leyline of the Void to the sb.

While Tarmogoyf was the inspiration of the idea of a "Green Death" deck, Oona's Prowler is what made me actually build the deck and test it out. With Jitte MD, Oona's Prowler seems awesome since it flies.

The reason I use Snuff Out is because most importantly, it's 3B so it dodges Counterbalance (even better than 4B since FoW is 3UU), and plus it's free, hence it dodges Daze as well.

I feel like the weakest card in the deck is Dark Ritual.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any comments.

[Arsenal]

Snuff Out does not dodge Daze. Oona's Prowler is not a good card in general, as it gives your opponent a discard outlet (which is actually some deck's strength), and it gives your opponent final say over what your deck is able to do.

Also, if you're going the fetchland/Wasteland route, why not 2-3 Urborg? This will smooth out your Wasteland opening hands a bit. I think Urborg + non-basics in Sui Black variants are a good way to go if you choose to run Wasteland at all.

[Shawon]

Snuff Out does not dodge Daze. Oona's Prowler is not a good card in general, as it gives your opponent a discard outlet (which is actually some deck's strength), and it gives your opponent final say over what your deck is able to do.

Also, if you're going the fetchland/Wasteland route, why not 2-3 Urborg? This will smooth out your Wasteland opening hands a bit. I think Urborg + non-basics in Sui Black variants are a good way to go if you choose to run Wasteland at all.
Snuff Out is free, so yeah I'd say it dodges Daze, at least better than Smother/Ghastly Demise/Vendetta. Granted, your opponent having a madness outlet isn't good, but it's 3/1 and a flier. May not make the cut, but still worth trying. I thought Urborg was superfluous, but I didn't see that it fixed Wasteland. Thanks, that's a good point.

[Clark Kant]

I'm not at all impressed by Snuff Out. Why lose FOUR life, just to save one mana?

Ghastly Demise does exactly what snuff out does. Yes it costs one more mana to do it, but it doesn't cost you four life.

That four life will lose far far more games than that one mana will.

As for the previous list I posted, I'm changing the disruption package based on the feedback that actually made sense in terms of how the deck was playing...

The creature and discard base was absolutely perfect.

But I'm switching the utility base from...

//Utility
3 Rancor
3 Berserk
3 Reanimate
3 Ghastly Demise

To...

//Utility
2 Berserk
3 Reanimate
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Smother

It's a sucky movie when you run into noncreature based decks, combo decks, and the vast majority of control decks. But aggro decks seem to predominate and the extra creature kill is fantastic with them. Reanimate is golden against both control decks and aggro decks, but once again is worthless against combo. If you face combo, do not use this build, at all.

Jitte is an awesome card. I'm just hesistent to test it because it's slow, where as this deck is all about uber speed (hence the Berserk).

As for manabase, I'm squeezing in 3 Wasteland along with 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth to compensate for that.

P.S: reanimate became good once goyf took over the format.

the odds are in your favor that your opponent's deck plays goyfs.

you do as well.

you also play ways to discard their goyfs, and ways to kill their goyfs.

they play ways to counter and/or kill your goyfs.

all in all, a lot of goyfs end up in the graveyard.

Thus, reanimate is goyfs 5-8. It costs one mana less than goyf, but costs two life.

If your deck can play with 8 goyfs rather than 4, wouldn't you. That's why the deck plays reanimate.

[Cone]

// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
7 [CS] Snow-Covered Swamp
3 [A] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [LRW] Oona's Prowler
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [10E] Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
4 [IA] Dark Ritual
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [MM] Snuff Out

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 4 [AL] Dystopia

I would cut The Leylines for Planar Void because of Dark Confidant and maybe Snuff Out for Smother.

[zulander]

This deck needs more eva green.

[J.V.]

This deck needs more eva green.

Lol good call.

[Cone]

This deck needs more eva green.

Yep.
After I read the decklist of eva green I also think this deck needs more of it.........

[Lemuria]

This deck needs more eva green.


I'll go straight to the point:

How this deck is better then Eva Green?

or even better,

Why not play Eva Green over this at all?

[Galroth]

You all are a bunch of idiots to think that Eva green is definitively superior. There are obvious areas where each is better, not to mention the differences between builds are often so miniscule that it doesn't matter. Honestly, who can name the difference between B/g suicide, Eva Green, and Green Death here? Anyone? It's not like there's a fucking defined decklist for each one? Eva Green is obviously the most developed because it was a very small group of peoples working to develop a particular version of B/g suicide / Green Death who decided it was good enough and tested enough to apply their own fancy name to it. It's not like the concept differs incredibly? And why would it, it's a solid strategy.

How is Green Death better? It kills quicker? It (can) pack larger beats and depending on the particular build being run, it can or cannot have a better combo match-up, control match-up, or aggro match-up - yeah, that particular build being run does seem to matter, doesn't it.

Stop making retarded comments.

*God, that was worth it.

[zulander]

You all are a bunch of idiots to think that Eva green is definitively superior. There are obvious areas where each is better, not to mention the differences between builds are often so miniscule that it doesn't matter. Honestly, who can name the difference between B/g suicide, Eva Green, and Green Death here? Anyone? It's not like there's a fucking defined decklist for each one? Eva Green is obviously the most developed because it was a very small group of peoples working to develop a particular version of B/g suicide / Green Death who decided it was good enough and tested enough to apply their own fancy name to it. It's not like the concept differs incredibly? And why would it, it's a solid strategy.

How is Green Death better? It kills quicker? It (can) pack larger beats and depending on the particular build being run, it can or cannot have a better combo match-up, control match-up, or aggro match-up - yeah, that particular build being run does seem to matter, doesn't it.

Stop making retarded comments.

*God, that was worth it.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your build of green death? Also, I think these decks are actually the same exact thing, except eva green is using tombstalker as it's kill con instead of the oona's prower/negater version. You honestly can't say that prowler/negator are better than stalker.

[enemyofarsenic]

do a match/showdown then, put in some documentation to it.. that would be interesting... Green Death vs. Eva Green... what do you say.. ahehehe =]

[Lemuria]

Showing up to tournaments and put up results seems better, then we can see what's worth playing.

[SuckerPunch]

I think these decks are actually the same exact thing, except eva green is using tombstalker as it's kill con instead of the oona's prower/negater version.

You hit the nail on the head there. Just swap out Dark Confidants for Tombstalker (and Rancor for Snuff Out/Seal of Primordium) in the original posted decklist and you have essentially identical decklists. I'm not sure how that warrants a brand new and confusing archeatype name.

P.S. I personally think the deck should be playing BOTH Negator and Tombstalker along with Goyf. Negator is still extremely broken against most of the decks in the format. It comes into play multiple turns earlier than you can usually cast Tombstalker. For those few matchups where it's not a house, just don't cast it and rely on Goyf and Tombstalker instead then side it out. If you meta has a ton of burn etc, even then I would absolutely run 4 Negator in the sideboard. It's too great a card to leave out completely the Eva Green does.

I can honestly say that a good third of my wins with this deck came off of an early or Berserked Negator. Just play the card smart, and it will serve you very well.

[zulander]

You hit the nail on the head there. Just swap out Dark Confidants for Tombstalker (and Rancor for Snuff Out/Seal of Primordium) in the original posted decklist and you have essentially identical decklists. I'm not sure how that warrants a brand new and confusing archeatype name.

P.S. I personally think the deck should be playing BOTH Negator and Tombstalker along with Goyf. Negator is still extremely broken against most of the decks in the format. It comes into play multiple turns earlier than you can usually cast Tombstalker. For those few matchups where it's not a house, just don't cast it and rely on Goyf and Tombstalker instead then side it out. If you meta has a ton of burn etc, even then I would absolutely run 4 Negator in the sideboard. It's too great a card to leave out completely the Eva Green does.

I can honestly say that a good third of my wins with this deck came off of an early or Berserked Negator. Just play the card smart, and it will serve you very well.

There isn't any room in Eva Green for negator, we've tried it though and found the list we played was the most optimal list we've had. Also, imho Jitte > berserk in the board. Jitte is a " I'm going to win if you don't answer it" cards, and berserk is just " I'm going to win more in your face ". It also opens up the 2 for 1, if they kill the creature well then you're fubared. And one thing this format plays is removal.

[Bovinious]

There isn't any room in Eva Green for negator, we've tried it though and found the list we played was the most optimal list we've had. Also, imho Jitte > berserk in the board. Jitte is a " I'm going to win if you don't answer it" cards, and berserk is just " I'm going to win more in your face ". It also opens up the 2 for 1, if they kill the creature well then you're fubared. And one thing this format plays is removal.

Well Berserk always kills your creature so it seems like its always a 2 for 1, but sometimes they take damage for it. You can also use it as a green Condemn, but yeah Jitte is def. better I agree.

[Arsenal]

In my opinion, there are not enough fundamental differences between B/G Suicide, Green Death, and Eva Green to warrant different threads and monikers. Personally, I like the name "Green Death" the most, but the deckname is rather trivial and doesn't matter. The idea that Green Death and Eva Green are vastly different does matter.

This is not a situation where Suicide Black and Mono-Black Control are being compared; those two decks are fundamentally different even though they are both mono-black. Green Death was created to (a.) include Goyf, and (b.) include artifact/enchantment removal. Eva Green has basically done the same thing, came out after Green Death, and the change in the meta creature slot (Negator v. Tombstalker) isn't enough to say, "I have a whole different deck! Instead of Creature A, I'm using Creature B!".

I wish these two threads would either be combined or one of them closed. It's like having two different threads and names for the zombie-heavy build of Sui Black and the zombie-free buid of Sui Black in one forum... it's redundant and causes more confusion than clarity.

[zulander]

While I agree they are mostly the same deck (read my previous posts), I'd have to say some of the card choices here aren't up to par with the metagame. In my opinion I'd ask all the relevant posts from here be merged to Eva Green, but the posts that aren't be deleted/locked.

[SuckerPunch]

In my opinion, there are not enough fundamental differences between B/G Suicide, Green Death, and Eva Green to warrant different threads and monikers.

I agree with that.

I don't neccesarily think that two of the threads should be closed. But IF a mod does feel the need to close two threads, I think this should be the thread to stay open seeing as how this thread was posted several months before either and has a clear cut name (anyone thats ever heard of of Red Death would instantly know what Green Death is).

I acknowledge that Tombstalker over Confidant is an improvement. But perhaps that list should be edited into the original post crediting the creator ofcourse.

But once again, I don't really see the need to have Eva Green closed either. It's not that big a deal, there's a ton of different rg beats threads, 9 land stompy threads and other threads posted over the years. Heck there's atleast 3 different mono sui black threads out there posted in the past two months (including one that is mislabeled as "MBC with a twist" though it was identical to sui black lists and posted in the Established Decks Forum, and it's still open on page 2). So there really is no basis to close Eva Green either imo.

[morgan_coke]

Why on earth are you guys running Reanimate over Unearth? One costs, life, one doesn't, both cost one mana, one cycles if its unneeded, one doesn't. And just to clarify, if you're playing Reanimate, your card comes out on the bad end of all those comparisons.

[Arsenal]

This has been done to death... because you can Reanimate your opponent's opposing creature, not just your own (Unearth is your creatures only). HUGE difference.

[Galroth]

Because Zulander asked for a decklist... and because this decklist might be enough to draw a difference between Eva Green and Green Death:

Mana (24)
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bayou
1x Forest
7x Swamp
4x Dark Ritual
Creatures (18)
4x Phyrexian Negator
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Flesh Reaver
Discard (7)
4x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
Pump (7)
4x Rancor
3x Berserk

Deck Theory: The design of green death is to beat face as quickly as possible while providing the minimal amount of disruption to (a) deal with combo (b) give yourself an extra turn before control takes over (c) remove their removal.

Green Death has superior creatures and superior tempo. It kills just as quickly, just as consistently as goblins or affinity. It's not designed to go to the late game. It's not designed to control the board. See builds of The Rock if that's your interest. Instead push through twenty points of damage quickly as possible while keeping the opponent from board control or combo's win condition. Pretty damn simple when you think about it.

Controversial Choices:

Removal and Jitte versus Rancor and Berserk - Simply put, Rancor and Berserk kill quicker. Some consider Jitte superior because you won't lose a possible 2 for 1. First point, if you do, rough. Hopefully Rancor goes back to your hand. Rancor and Berserk kill quicker than Jitte and come online quicker than Jitte. Green Death isn't interested in the late game. End it quickly. These cards do that job better. Second, and more important point, you play pinpoint Discard to combat this exact effect. Rancor and Berserk usually don't see play til turn 3 or 4. By then Thoughtseize or Duress should have done their job and pealed away their Removal. If there is a choice between a creature or removal, take the removal. Why? Because your creatures are freaking bigger than theirs!

Why not pack removal of your own? First, there's no room. You want to keep your creature count high (I recommend 18), and you need to see 1-2 discard and pump effects each game. Why won't I make room? First, and again, your creatures are larger so you should be running over theirs or kill your opponent quicker than he/she is killing you. Rancor and Berserk aid this, they also break standoffs. Rancor = your goyf winning... your shade winning, hypnotic specter becoming a clock on top of his effect. Rancor and Berserk are cheaper and they adhere better to this game plan.

Flesh Reaver - Everyone seems to have an issue with Flesh Reaver because he kills you too, so does Negator. And how many creatures do you know that can handle Goyf. If you're willing to trade 4 life with Snuff Out you can ante up the same with Flesh Reaver. Reaver is not going to lose you the game. The game is only going to last a few swings, and even if you're down to 1 and your opponent is at 8, a berserked Reaver wins it for you. You want size and speed. Reaver is this. I considered Tombstalker in this spot. Tombstalker is massive and is great late game, but he doesn't see play 'til earliest at turn 3. And that's almost always off of a ritual. If you see ritual in your hand, you want to play it turn 1. Realistically, Tombstalker isn't going to hit the board 'til turn 4+. Reaver can and will hit the board turn 2. And he will help to end games by turn 4 or 5 with consistency.

Lack of Hymn to Tourach - This card is amazing. But there is a considerable lack of room and the pinpoint Discard is more important. You need to worry about specific spells in your opponents hand (read removal spells and board sweepers). The lack of hymn keeps the curve down and keeps your game more streamlined to what you should be doing; despite how great Hymn is, the deck is designed for the quicker kill and hymn doesn't facillitate this as wall as the rest of your cards.

I think the rest of my choice are fairly straight-forward. If there are questions, ask. In general it hosts a better combo and control matchup than Eva Green. In general it hosts a worse aggro matchup. Your board should contain Hymn for combo and control, Jitte for aggro, and Grip/Seal for pesky artifacts.