What are the staple cards of each color or archeatype.

[SuckerPunch]

Staple cards are cards that 90%+ of any decks that even lightly splashes a particular color would want to run multiple copies of and are good enough that they are worth splashing a color for just to be able to run.

Here are my choices...

White - Swords to Plowshares

Red - Lightning Bolt

Black - Duress (Dark Ritual could work were it also played in slower black decks like Deadguy, MBC, Pox etc.)

Blue - Brainstorm

Green - Tarmogoyf (Green had no staple cards before Goyf.)


Archeatype Staples

Countermagic Control - Force of Will

Disruptive Decks - Duress

Aggro - Tarmogoyf

Burn - Lightning Bolt


It was pointed out to me when I was talking about this that every single card I listed with two exceptions are commons AND were printed in atleast four different editions.

This is excellent because staples are cards that every single magic player should have 4 copies of in their collection. They are cards that show up in so many different decks that you are severely impeded in your deck building if you don't get the staples.

The exceptions to the all common, reprinted four times rule are Force of Will which was a fortunately an uncommon, and a card that only players with some experience with the game see the value of. Most newer players rarely see the card as very powerful and make little effort to get it, making the card not as difficult to get. More significantly, it's a card thats only legal in the two least played formats in magic.

Inspite of it's uncommon classification and it's very restricted legality, the prices Force of Will are sky high, and there is still a crunch to get four copies.

Tarmogoyf is the second exception. And unfortunately, it's a rare, and one that even newer players quickly see the power of, and in a color that newer players absolutely love to play. And it's a card that overwhelming in every single format in magic, not just the two least played ones.

Do you foresee the rare status of green's and aggro's staple card, Tarmogoyf as leading to sky high prices?

Do you think it was a mistake for Wizards to finally make a staple card for green, but to print it as a rare eventhough every player should have four copies of it in their collection?

I do, and I guess the main point is that I think it would have good for the game if Goyf was an uncommon and it would be a good thing for the game if Wizards does reprint Tarmagoyf along with good removal cards like Smother in standard.

I am confidant that it is a very good thing for both Legacy and Magic in general that Swords to Plowshares, Duress, Brainstorm, and Lightning Bolt are not expensive chase rares but rather easy to get commons.

And my arguement is that Goyf has a lot more in common with these cards than it does with many of the chase rares out there. Goyf almost universally belongs in virtually every single green deck just as the above cards belong in virtually every single deck of their respective color. It doesn't matter whether the deck is monocolored green or threshold, extended or standard, a duel or a multiplayer game. The same can't be said of chase rares like Meddling Mage and Sea Drake which are very deck and format specific. Those few chase rares that are true staples seen in many different decks I would argue are also cards that would have benefitted the game were they reprinted.

That's why I think it would be a good thing, for Tarmagoyf atleast to be reprinted. It really isn't hard to keep the card in check in standard. Reprinting Goyf doesn't break Standard either. There are already plenty of answers to the card including Temporal Isolation. This is why some of the best decks in standard include that monoblue lockdown deck, the dredge deck and that mono black control deck, all of which can deal with Goyf effictively. Standard is perfectly healthy with the card.

So Wizard should be focusing on the long term a bit more. They should take a second to think about how different the game might be, how many fewer players may have gotten into competitive magic in the first place, if Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Duress, and Lightning Bolt were all impossible to find chase rares.

[264505]

Sui-Wasteland/Sinkhole

Aggro-Aether Vial

Control-some sort of sweeper, lets go with WoG cause everyone should already have 4

Combo-Burning Wish, Lions Eye Diamond

Aggro Control-Tarmogoyf, yea, hes nuts

[The Rack]

I agree on all of your choices but in the Black slot it could be Dark Ritual, without ritual combo would be a lot slower and not as nearly as consistent. I think thats a pretty big reason why Ritual should be up there too, which is also a common.

Goyf is already at sky high prices for someone to pay 60$ for a playset of a card in the newest printed set is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. It's already hard to get and I don;t see them reprinting it, but I really hope they do.

My 2 cents

[thefreakaccident]

If anything I would say that there are only a handful of real absolute must plays in the game, dual lands and fetch lands... you can build a green deck without goyf (it might not be that great, but you can), you can build a deck with red in it and never play a burn spell (goblins, unless you are counting incinerator as a burn outlet), you can play white without swords (I've seen it happen, even if I don't agree with the descision), if you are playing blue you are playing brainstorm end of story (unless you're goblin/fish).

that's my point of veiw.

[SuckerPunch]

Sui-Wasteland/Sinkhole

Aggro-Aether Vial

Control-some sort of sweeper, lets go with WoG cause everyone should already have 4

Combo-Burning Wish, Lions Eye Diamond

Aggro Control-Tarmogoyf, yea, hes nuts

thefreakaccident and 264505, I defined staple to mean that 90%+ of every single deck with access that color or archeatype should run the card, or atleast seriously consider splashing that color just to run it.

Also, note the should. Just because you've seen casual decks that opted not to play the staples doesn't mean that they shouldn't have. Even you admitted that you never thought it was the right call to not run the staple.

So the post by 26505 doesn't make much sense.

No where close to 90%+ of aggro deck run Aether Vial. Fairie Stompy, Red Death, Zilla Stompy, and tons of others don't. Even many versions of Affinity pass it up for Paradise Mantle. So it's no where close to being a staple.

90%+ of control deck don't run WoG. BBS, Train Wreck and a whole bunch of others don't. Plenty of control decks don't run white at all.

90%+ of combo decks don't runs LED. But you would be right if you said, storm combo.

[264505]

But dont goblins, D&T, and affiinty run vial? Id say thats a rather big chunk of the aggro meta (particularly goblins). It also has merit in other archetypes like in breakfast. I said sweepers in gerneral, its hard to define what a control deck should run because they are in a great variety of colors. I fyou wanted a general answer, i would say turn 1 answer to lackey, if you play combo and cant answer him you'll be losing a lot of games. The only other combo decks that dont run LED are breakfast and high tide combo. Belcher does, TES, IGGy Pop, and Ichorid as well. I can agree burning with isnt a "staple" but if you dont have LED your significantally decreasing your combo choices.

[SuckerPunch]

Goblins & Vial Affinity do not represent 90%+ of all aggro decks in the format. You can look at any reasonably sized tournament to see that Fairie Stompy, Red Death, RG Beatz and Stompy and other aggro including all the new decks randomly splashing Tarmogoyf make up a good chunk of the aggro field.

Can we talk about the staples that we clearly do agree on.




Goyf is already at sky high prices for someone to pay 60$ for a playset of a card in the newest printed set is ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. It's already hard to get and I don;t see them reprinting it, but I really hope they do.

My 2 cents

I completely agree with you there. The goyf prices are a bit out of hand definately. But it's totally understandable. Every single serious player of any format wants and needs 4 copies of the card for their collection. It's a staple that belongs in virtually every green and many aggro decks. So I don't expect the prices to do anything but go up until Wizards decides to repint them.

[Nihil Credo]

The price of Goyf will go down when he rotates out of T2. Then it will go up again, but in the meanwhile there will be a window to get it for (relatively) cheap.

[DragoFireheart]

The price of Goyf will go down when he rotates out of T2. Then it will go up again, but in the meanwhile there will be a window to get it for (relatively) cheap.

Goyf will never go down. He will forever go up in value.

[from Cairo]

Goyf will never go down. He will forever go up in value.

T2 chase rares always drop a little when they rotate out of the format. I could see it going back up in value possibly surpassing its ~$15 value at some point in the distant future. But as a general rule when a T2 staple rotates out, the T2 players that don't play other formats unload their playsets for less than the value was at the card's T2 prime, in order to build up some resources for the next block.

[Illissius]

The thing is that Tarmogoyf isn't just a staple in Standard, he's a staple in every format, with the possible exception of Vintage. (We haven't seen Extended results, but there's no reason to believe it'll be any different). So it's not a given that the same model will hold.

[SuckerPunch]

I'll have to agree with Illius.

The type 2 chase rares you guys are talking about usually suck in all the other formats.

Goyf is just the opposite. He's actually better in the other formats as it's far easier to splash good undercosted synergistic artifacts, enchantments, sorceries and instants into the decks in those formats. And need I even mention the interaction with fetchlands and wastelands?

And just wait until Planeswalkers see print. I'm certain that they will be good enough that they too will see play in all the formats. So Goyf is just going to get that much better.

I see no reason to think his price will do anything but go up unless Wizards wises up to the fact that Goyf is now green's staple card in every single format and reprints him in atleast one more set like they did with Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Duress, and Brainstorm. They have the perfect justification to do it too. Tarmogoyf is future shifted after all. I just hope they get rid of the cards idiotic reminder text.

In many ways, Tarmogoyf now defines greens role in the format. Thresh creatures were always limited because you need a heavy cantrip engine to use them. With goyf, you don't really need to alter most decklists that splash him much at all. And in most cases, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by splashing him into any deck that can support him.

Staple cards like Tarmogoyf that are staples in every magic format need to made available in sufficient quantities that all the serious players are able to get a playset. Otherwise, Wizards will only be detering the players that can't get that staple card from playing the game.

Maybe we should write to MaRo (using the feedback button at the end of his articles) with our thoughts about the cards reprint policy?

I should be open about my motive. I have a soft spot for green, especially mono green.

It's the first color that all the newer players are drawn to. It's the beatdown color that you play because it's fun even when people laugh at just how weak monogreen really is. It's the budget color where you can use Llanowar Elves for your mana accleration needs rather than the Mox that all the other colors use and can use that mana to play juicy fatties. It's the color with freaking Rancor!

In legacy, monogreen was the one last thread of hope for budget players, the one last deck that you don't need $70 Piledrivers, $80 Sinkholes, $90 Sea Drakes, or $100 Dual Lands to play.

Before a few years ago, setting aside Vintage, most of the staples in the game (StP, Duress, Bolt etc) were cards that were printed as commons, and reprinted again and again so that every one could play with them. That was a good thing for magic.

It's a very good thing that players just starting out can readily find and get some of the most powerful and useful cards in the game.

Every deck with the exception of monogreen needed some uberexpensive card to be built. Goyf is the equivalent of dual lands for that last thread of decks that previously didn't need any uberexpensive rares.

Why do you think 9 Land Stompy was still so popular. It's certainly not because the deck is ubercompetitive I'll tell you that much. Now, with goyf, the deck finally has potential atleast. I run the deck, and I assure you that it suddenly got a hell of a lot better thanks to Goyf. But precisely the one deck that Goyf could help the most is the one that draws in the players that can't afford the card.

In someways, Goyf was a big screw you to all the people that bagged on green for so long. Goyf really is to Green what StP is to White. It almost by itself makes the color worth playing, or splashing.

So yeah, I would have preferred Goyf as a GG. But even as is, I like the card and definately think that mono green players, newer players, all the johnnys out there on a tight budget, deserve to play with the card. Not just the spikes that spent the past decade laughing at monogreen decks.

More importantly, just how many more outraogously overpriced staples that every serious player absolutely needs to get 4 copies of in every single format to be competitive do we need.

This isn't for personal reasons either. I preordered two playsets of Tarmogoyf within two weeks of when the card was leaked. I could easily have sold them off for 15x their original price if I wanted to. But I'm going to keep them as I absolutly love playing with them in both thresh and 9 land stompy. And I stand to lose as much as most if Goyf gets reprinted so that it's price goes down a little bit. I couldn't care less about that.

True Mana Drain, Sea Drake and FoW are from sets that weren't printed in as large a volume as Future Sight.
I assure you that Tarmogoyf will be the prevalent card in the competitive decks in the eternal formats and in multiplayer as well. Just give it time. And it will be even more prevalent if Planeswalkers are playable which is what Wizards is aiming for.

More importantly, do you guys realize how important multiplayer is to the long term health of the game. 3/4s of the players I know got into magic by first joining casual multiplayer games with a deck someone lent them. They only started playing duels much later. But if you make the most common, most powerful, most likable, most splashable multiplayer staple one that's so impossible to get, they will make multiplayer less appealing to the bazillion people that simply can't get a hold of Tarmogoyf and to newer players alike.

People will be looking back at this time in magic and talking about how wizards dealt with Goyf. If they opt to never reprint it because it's a powerful card, Goyf will still be a must play in all the eternal formats. All you will have done is made Green's staple card one that's near impossible to get. In time, it will be everybit as impossible to find as Sea Drake, probably more so, because it goes into so many different decks in so many different formats where as Sea Drake still only works well in Fairie Stompy due to it's drawback

But a decision to not reprint Tarmogoyf will have long term effects on the game even more significant than the fact that Mana Drain and Force of Will were only printed in one set, albeit as an uncommon. I argue that these two cards are a major reason why people with smaller collections are driven away from playing blue. By making greens staple one that is so rare that only the pros can get it, you will be driving newer and casual players away from their favorite color, green. Even newer players won't want to play green if they can't get the very best and coolest creature in green. That will be a very bad thing for the game. People want to atleast think that their deck plays the best cards that it should. But its obvious to even the newest players that their green deck isn't the first time a pro beats them down with Goyf.

[HdH_Cthulhu]

SuckerPunch i think you dramatiz a little bit about the newbies...
Noobs dont care about a single card an how it effects a "format" the mostly dont know about formats!
And for a newer player it isnt so importent to play with a card as a 4 of in a deck!

But you right about the rest in your post!

[from Cairo]

The type 2 chase rares you guys are talking about usually suck in all the other formats.


ODYSSEY FETCHES!
Meddling Mage
Jitte
Pithing Needle
Rishadan Port
Morphling
Pernicious Deed
Chrome Mox
Burning Wish
Cunning Wish
Cursed Scroll
Survival of the Fittest

Etc., Some of them are less good now than they used to be, but all were chase cards in T2, that were expensive, and used in other formats and dropped in price after leaving Type 2.

I responded to this post this in the other thread already, and Cthulhu sort of touched on it, but new players don't have a format, they are being introduced to the game, once past the basics, they are just starting to be introduced to synergy and deck building.

The fact that 5 yrs down the line, a new player doesn't crack an in-print box and get 4x Tarmogoyf, it's not make or break for whether they will develop into a competitive or casual player or quit. As they make steps (or chose not to) toward competitive play they will find play styles that fit them, and chose their decks accordingly. If they decide to move into competitive play they're choosing to move into a more expensive game, regardless of format moving from playing casual: mostly commons / lower budget decks to top tournament competitors is an expensive step.

As far as monogreen being a budget deck, yea sans Tarmogoyf it is, but it's also not really regarded as competitive, it's casual/budget. Which is a completely acceptable choice to make, but if one looks at any of the decks that are Top 8ing large tournaments (in Legacy, I don't follow T2 or Ext much anymore) the budget of most of them is ~$300+. From previous experience other formats tend to run cheaper per deck, but the decks rotate out yearly so collecting staples isn't the same. So as a Legacy player one can chose to remain budget or invest in staples.

I drew a comparison in my other post to reprinting power, which is an exaggeration, but I feel supported my point. That competitive players have been spending the money to stay that way in the format for a while, to reprint staple rares in a newer fashion, especially to the degree that they would be readily available to brand new players would be sort of a slap in the face to anyone who shelled out the money for them when they were hard to acquire, and be going against the collectible concept behind the game.

Which is not to say that Tarmogoyf can't be reprinted, its a brand new card in an in-print set who knows what the future holds, but the idea that new players are entitled to x4 of one of the most powerful rares in a color seems crazy, and we can hypothesize about the card's future as far as reprinting goes, but at the moment there is really no reason.

The card is in print, it readily available, it's a bit expensive cause its so usable, but it's pretty safe to say its a great investment regardless, this card is going to be a powerhouse in any green deck. If you don't need the card for a deck right now you could roll the dice that his price drops when he rotates out of Type 2, all previous T2 chase cards have shown this trend that especially right around rotation they drop even if its only until Extended season where they jump back up again, there will likely be alot of T2 players unloading them at that time.

[thulnanth]

SuckerPunch / from Cairo,

Great debate - well thought out and articulated from both sides. I have been following it in both threads and you make some good points. To be honest, I agree with from Cairo completely, but I find SuckerPunch to have the more widely held position (at least from what I read in the forums).

I am curious why people feel this need to drop the price of any card that gets over a few dollars to "increase access" for the masses? I don't play competitively, so I really can't comment on the modern tournament scene. Is a lack of access to certain cards really keeping attendence down? It would seem attendence is strong from reports I get, and the numbers of people going doesn't even come close to exhausting the available cardpool. No matter what the price, you will always have some who can't afford them. Since most people who play Magic never go to tournaments, they won't care. Those who make the choice to play competitively usually assume there will be an increased cost. I'm not sure dropping the price of certain cards would encourage more people to attend events.

I don't know the answer, thoughts?

Take it easy,
Jared

[SuckerPunch]

Thank you for the kind words.

I partially agree with Cairo's arguement.

But I guess the main point I am making, and one that Cairo hasn't really addressed is that it would be a good thing for the game if Wizards does reprint Tarmagoyf along with good removal cards like Smother in standard.

My argument isn't that Wizards is required to reprint the card.

My arguement is that it is a very good thing for both Legacy and Magic in general that Swords to Plowshares, Duress, Brainstorm, and Lightning Bolt are not expensive chase rares but rather easy to get commons.

And my arguement is that Goyf has a lot more in common with these cards than it does with many of the chase rares out there. Goyf almost universally belongs in virtually every single green deck just as the above cards belong in virtually every single deck of their respective color. It doesn't matter whether the deck is monocolored green or threshold, extended or standard, a duel or a multiplayer game. The same can't be said of chase rares like Meddling Mage and Sea Drake which are very deck and format specific.

That's why I think it would be a good thing, for Tarmagoyf atleast to be reprinted. It really isn't hard to keep the card in check in standard. Reprinting Goyf doesn't break Standard either. There are already plenty of answers to the card including Temporal Isolation. This is why some of the best decks in standard include that monoblue lockdown deck, the dredge deck and that mono black control deck, all of which can deal with Goyf effictively. Standard is perfectly healthy with the card.

So Wizard should be focusing on the long term a bit more. They should take a second to think about how different the game might be, how many fewer players may have gotten into competitive magic in the first place, if Swords to Plowshares, Brainstorm, Duress, and Lightning Bolt were all impossible to find chase rares.

[TrialByFire]

Not to offend the OP, but you should stop talking about wizards reprinting a card that came out 3 months ago. Its going to be in print for the next two years. Win some tournaments, get some future sight packs, and crack a few. Or just pony up and buy a playset like the rest of the community. The card is going to be a staple forever, mine as well get them now while they are in print, not wait till they are out of it and their price starts to go up continually.

Another thing, althoug the goyf is potentially huge creature for two mana, it dies to all the creature removal in every format just like any other creature. In this respect i agree with you that the card is not overpowered. And also, the mono blue deck is Pickles Combo and it is a TSP Block constructed deck, not standard.

[from Cairo]

I think it's probably safe to assume that whatever choice they make on reprinting him it will largely be influenced by what sort of impact he would have on Type 2. It's where most of the competitive players are and its the format they value the highest. If they want Goyf to be a factor in T2 he may see reprinting, if they feel he is too defining he will probably not be given another pressing.

Cards like Duals, Force, Fetches, are all as format defining and haven't seen reprints at all/long time for Duals. Even if Goyf falls more in keeping with Swords, Duress, and Bolt (I'm not sure he does, but regardless) as being a card that should be readily available to the Legacy masses, I don't think Wizards would reprint him to appease the Eternal players, much like the chances of seeing Bolt or Swords, probably Brainstorm too, coming back to Standard are very unlikely.

Either way, I think the risk of his value banning him from Legacy is minimal atleast for a long time to come.

[SuckerPunch]

TrailbyFire, I suggest reading the post that you are refering to a bit more closely next time. :tongue:



This isn't for personal reasons either. I preordered two playsets of Tarmogoyf within two weeks of when the card was leaked. I could easily have sold them off for 15x their original price if I wanted to. But I'm going to keep them as I absolutly love playing with them in both thresh and 9 land stompy. And I stand to lose as much as most if Goyf gets reprinted so that it's price goes down a little bit. I couldn't care less about that.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Does anyone know if the futureshited cards from Future Sight are going to be printed in up coming sets? If so Tarmogoyf might already be up for reprinting.

[Bryant Cook]

I hope they make one with a normal card frame. It's hideous for being soo good.

[Nosomo.]

Blue-Brainstorm: Name 1 that does not run it.
White-Swords to plowshares: Who makes white a splash without adding swords and if they are mono-white they usually run it.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Blue-Brainstorm: Name 1 that does not run it.

Faerie Stompy.


I hope they make one with a normal card frame. It's hideous for being soo good.

I second this.

[from Cairo]

I hope they make one with a normal card frame. It's hideous for being soo good.

QFT!

a normal looking DCI foil...
normal boardered DCI or reprint one...
a textless one w/ reg card formatting...

anything would be an improvement... I would definitely drop some extra cash on normal looking Narcomeobas and Tarmogoyfs, no doubt alot of people would.