[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive] - Page 10

Fry

07-05-2012, 12:48 PM

I tried Batterskull for one tournament only, it was a small one (probably about 15 people or so). I was very disapointed with it, and I tried it when it was first printed and now with Thalia (as stated above) it's much much worse now than ever before. Yeah sure you CAN mystic it in play, but you can't rely on being able to do that against most match ups. Also as stated above you are, or should, be using wastelands and ports to stall them or lock them out of the game. If you are doing that properly, you won't have more than 3, sometimes 4 land open to do things with. I agree that Jitte, SoFI, and SoLaS are the best choices to play in the deck main, and maybe Manriki-Gusari in side for opposing batterskulls. Also if you're worried about life gain, you've got SoLaS for that and it gets you a dude back. The list I play makes the choice to further deny my opponent resources with 4 Leonin Arbiter and the only cards in my 75 that search are 3 mystics. Also if you have Vial on 2 and Arbiter, you are able to make your opponent fetch, resp with Arbiter, and the paid a life and sacked a land for nothing since most of the time they won't have 2 mana open to pay for it.

As for the argument about anti-Mirran Crusader, that's a personal choice the way I see it. I prefer it over Serra Avenger for the reason that if you are going to hard cast the Avenger you won't be able to do that before turn 3 anyway, and it also give you another reason to take your vial up to 3 counters for Mangara and Flickerwisp. Yes it gets destroyed by removal, but the same removal gets Avenger save Forked Bolt and it doesn't fly, but have pro green which with any deck that plays green makes the match up better. It blocks Goyf, Ooze and KotR all day and swings through Hierarchs and other such things. Put jitte on it, you get 4 counters most of the time, and double activations from the swords.

Here's my list for a reference and it's served me quite well:
My list is as follows

Main Board:
2 Burenton Forge-Tender
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Karakas
4 Risadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 PLains

Side Board:
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Goldmeadow Harrier
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker

I've not played it for a couple months partly because of Massacre, and Terminus does hurt too, but if you play around them it's not that hard to still put up a valiant effort. Also I've taken a break to play another deck with all sorts of tricks in it to switch it up a little. I've been playing D&T exclusively for about a year and a half and it was hard to cut the 4th flickerwisp because of its potentally insane and game breaking plays (especially with vial on three and mangara) The Forge-Tenders I put in with the prevalence of red in the format recently and it also stops Progenitus in its tracks when you recur it with SoLaS. I've been thinking about giving this another whirl for the next Tournament I go to instead of playing MUD which I've played for the past 2 months or so.

Barbed Blightning

07-05-2012, 01:19 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the point of removal to, you know, remove things? Saying a creature dies to removal is like saying you can play an instant at any time--kind of an obvious remark, imo.

I too have found Skull to be lackluster in D&T, though I don't deny the sheer power of the SFM/BSkull combo. If we had the counters to back it up, I'm sure it'd be great in D&T--but we wouldn't be D&T if we ran counters.

And, sure, SFM is a weak 1/2, but she does so much for her 2 cmc: thins your deck, finds the right equipment to power up your dudes/protect them, gets that equipment around countermagic/Thalia, replaces herself in your hand so that you aren't losing card advantage; all in all, SFM is a brilliant card, perfectly suited for D&T. That's why I run 4.

Star|Scream

07-05-2012, 02:19 PM

overseer1234

07-05-2012, 03:15 PM

hyggli

07-09-2012, 06:17 PM

I wonder what is the matchup vs pox like.
The primer doesn't talk about it and I never played it before.

I'm by the way going to a tourney where there are plenty of and can't imagine winning without a fast vial

Vandalize

07-10-2012, 03:40 AM

I play batterskull as my 61th card because sometimes its good to hit the 'easy button'...

Granted, I usually grab SoLaS with SFM, but against controll with a mother of runes in play? batterskul please...

Okay, batterskull can be overkill sometimes. In that case just grab the other sword... 1 card in a 60 (or in my case 61) card deck won't hurt you that bad... (then again, overkill is underrated)

And if burn spends a burn spell killing your SFM because you grabed batterskull... well that's 1 less to the head.

I'd fetch Jitte before BSkull anyday against Burn. Jitte has actually a chance of gaining life for you. BSkull is just bad in this deck, period. Neither this nor Maverick can protect SFM long enough for BSkull to be good, and that's why they've dropped it soon enough.

This deck is just Goblins in white. Play AEther Vial, mana-denial a bit, and hit hard for the win.

@thread Is Mangara of Conrodor really viable? I know that she can power out with Karakas + AEther Vial, but that's a three card combo that might work in 5% of your games. Otherwise, she's just a bad Vindicate that might not even be able to do its job.

Is this list viable?

10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Jotun Grunt

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Cannonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).

Star|Scream

07-10-2012, 10:30 AM

I'd fetch Jitte before BSkull anyday against Burn. Jitte has actually a chance of gaining life for you. BSkull is just bad in this deck, period. Neither this nor Maverick can protect SFM long enough for BSkull to be good, and that's why they've dropped it soon enough.

This deck is just Goblins in white. Play AEther Vial, mana-denial a bit, and hit hard for the win.

@thread Is Mangara of Conrodor really viable? I know that she can power out with Karakas + AEther Vial, but that's a three card combo that might work in 5% of your games. Otherwise, she's just a bad Vindicate that might not even be able to do its job.

Is this list viable?

10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Jotun Grunt

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Cannonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).

If you remove Mangara then you can remove Karakas too and then splash blue for brainstorm!

klaus

07-10-2012, 11:05 AM

If you remove Mangara then you can remove Karakas too and then splash blue for brainstorm!
Not sure, if you're being ironic, but that's exactly what I did.

Star|Scream

07-10-2012, 11:34 AM

Not sure, if you're being ironic, but that's exactly what I did.

No, sorry. I was just trolling. But you let us know how that works out.

hyggli

07-10-2012, 11:34 AM

by the way, you are gettin a really bad matchup in show and tell/reanimator like

Barbed Blightning

07-11-2012, 11:41 PM

This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).

Then why are you running them?

Deck looks okay but with the meta trending towards RUG i wonder at the 4x revokers. That and the lessened grunt count and only 3 thalia in the whole 75 is concerning. My question: what happens when a threat (like jace) sticks? Fewer wisps and zero mangaras leaves you open to having no means of disposing of problems.

I don't always play mangara, but when i do i usually win regardless of having the lock. It has pulled me out of the fire too many times for me to ever consider taking him below 3. Vialed or cast, mangara is at worst a lightning rod and at best your opponents worst nightmare. It has killed ionas and chalices, allowing a timely swordsing and has served as a pseudo wasteland. He always trades favorably and is still obscure enough for cocksure opponents to ignore, until it's too late.

Tl;dr: mangara is great, why would you ever cut him?

Ignithas_

07-20-2012, 01:33 PM

I'd fetch Jitte before BSkull anyday against Burn. Jitte has actually a chance of gaining life for you. BSkull is just bad in this deck, period. Neither this nor Maverick can protect SFM long enough for BSkull to be good, and that's why they've dropped it soon enough.

This deck is just Goblins in white. Play AEther Vial, mana-denial a bit, and hit hard for the win.

@thread Is Mangara of Conrodor really viable? I know that she can power out with Karakas + AEther Vial, but that's a three card combo that might work in 5% of your games. Otherwise, she's just a bad Vindicate that might not even be able to do its job.

Is this list viable?

10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Jotun Grunt

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

SB: 4 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Ethersworn Cannonist
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Serenity
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Ensnaring Bridge

This is my latest list, and I'd like to hear some advice from pros here (please, don't say Leonin Arbiter is anti-synergic with Stoneforge Mystic, I know that).
Except Leonin Arbiter, which I wouldn't run, the lack of Mangara of Corondar does hurt, because we don't have removal for enchantments and artifacts. In combination with the good synergy with Vial, Land denial and Karakas he deserves at lest 2 slots. Flickerwisp is arguably best card in the deck and so I wouldn't run 3. The Thalia, Revoker and Jötun Grunts are metagame slots, so the numbers depends on the enemys you usually face, but the fourth Thalia synergys well with Karakas and gave you a better shot at beating storm, so I usually play the set.

timmycolossus

07-22-2012, 10:34 AM

This is the list I am running in my local tournaments (16 man). I have gotten first place 2 out 3 times playing with this deck now losing to U/W miracles in the finals last time. Here is my list. This is tuned to the meta. So if you see something unusual about the deck it is because of the environment I am playing in.

4x mother of runes
4x phyrexian revoker
4x stoneforge mystic
4x thalia, guardian of thraben
4x jotun grunt
4x flickerwisp
2x mangara of corondor

4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x sword of fire and ice
1x sword of light and shadow
2x umezawa's jitte

4x karakas
10x plains
4x rishadan port
4x wasteland

SB: changes on what I see but currently is
4x faerie macabre
2x oblivion ring
2x ethersworn canonist
2x enlightened tutor
2x oust
2x grafdigger's cage
1x COP red

Barbed Blightning

07-22-2012, 12:50 PM

Made 5th at Mythic Games with the following list:

Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Aether Vial
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
11 Snow-Covered Plains

Sideboard
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oust
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives

R1: Steve with ToporNought, 1-1-1.

Game one was a island, lotus petal (great, some storm deck, I think) and Topor Orb. I'm confused, until he drops two Phyrexian Dreadnoughts turn two.

Game 2 went to 47 of our 50-min round, with me hiding behind an ensnaring bridge until i dig up a karakas around turn 18 (not hyperbole). With mangara in play, I get the lock online, taking out the Topor orb to bring an SFM in, grabbing a SoFI. Next turn he plays anought dreadnought, and Trickbinds it--the first non-orb stifle of the match. I'm concerned now that he's going to use the stifles on my stuff...but he doesn't. He only uses them to play his fatties. I keep quite until I bust the bridge and let my crew swing in for 23. Next game went to turns.

R2: Zach with UW CounterTop (NOT miracles), 2-0

I had heard there was a countertop deck running about that had no miracles, and when Zach plays a turn-one top, followed by a turn-two energy field, I get giggly, and tell him that's he's given me Christmas early. Which he did--CounterTop (sans terminus/b-stroke) is probably the most fun I can have in Legacy. Always great grinds, and this game was no different. He gets the Energy Field/Wheel of Sun and Moon combo online, and uses Curse of the Bloody Tome to start milling me, till about a third of my deck was in the yard. I revoke his top, Mangara takes out Wheel, Tome and Field, and Avenger+SoFI puts him down.

Game two he uses needles on my Karakas and Stoneforge, but he's unable to get a field up and Wisp+SoFI get there.

R3: Matt with Vidugiris' RUG Delver, 2-0 (!!)

Matt and I are friends and there's no deception on who's running what, especially since he helped me SB and saw my maindeck before the tournament started.

Game one he keeps me off a vial turn one, and his delver eventually flips. I play Thalia, porting him off green till he wastes, and trade an avenger with his delver...following up the next turn with a second avenger. I give her SoLaS, and she takes quarters out of Matt's life total.

-1 Mangara, -3 Revokers, +2 Oust, +1 Grunt, +1Thalia (only SB change I made a note of, probably because I wanted to extrapolate my mistakes.)

Next game my vial gets countered, but is followed by a second. Oust and Swords keep his dudes at bay, and I start porting his Tropical. He wastes my port. I play my second port, take out the trop, and again he wastes. Then... I top deck my third port. I don't think I've ever been so proud of my deck, and when I receive 2 wastes, which I use on his tropical and one of his volcanics, he concedes. Granted, he was at 5 life, as well.

play of the day: he goes to bolt my Thalia with a cursed totem on his board and a mom on mine. I respond with vial @ 3, bring in my wisp, take out his totem, pro-r Thalia and that's that. He admitted that was pretty damn cool.

R4: Louis with UW Miracles, 2-1

I felt like Charlie Brown this entire matchup--as in, perpetually punting it. I keep a hand with no Thalia, Revoker or mom simply b/c it has a vial. I managed to cling on for a while, but after he ultimates with Jace, I lose.

Game two I mull down to 5, finally finding a vial, thalias, a wisp and a single Karakas. I draw next turn... Karkas. It's a lot of frustration on my part, whileI struggle to remain a threat. His Banishing Strokes take out my vials twice, and finally the third one sticks, and Thalia,
Revoker (on Top) and Avenger join the party. I beat him to 13, and he concedes--this time, he claims to be one who did the punting. Again, the clock has us late in the round.

Game three Thalia/Revoker stalls him, while Avenger/SoFI gets the clock going. He takes out the avenger with STP, I play a wisp, equip L&S, and another swords. We go to turns when I play another wisp, go for the equips, and swing. We do the math, and he concedes to me.

R5: Draw into 5th place, and we split the prizes.

Notes:

Seems like I'm finally getting the RUG matchup, so I can stop complaining about it now.

I really like the 3-1 Revoker split. It was originally a meta-call, since Mythic is notorious for its density of Maverick players. But having the ability to say "no" game one was really nice, and I never missed the 3rd maindeck grunt--even in the RUG match. That said, having the third one game two was nice, as it shrunk goyf for a turn and traded handsomely. I think I'll be sticking with this array for a while.

Still torn between Bridge and Ghostly Prison. Bridge saved me, sure, but it's still a hard call in my books.

Miracles is still 50-50 imo. B-stroke is a pain, and the fact that it and terminus puts them on the bottom makes grunt less useful in this match. I think the key is early denial of mana/abilities, keeping them off , and using SoFI/SoLaS to gain advantage over them. I also sided out all of my STPs, which I think is the right call--I'd rather have access to more dudes and hatepieces than removing a snapcaster or clique.

Haven't seen much combo recently. There was SneakShow in the Top8, and I saw someone misplaying elves, but it's mostly mid-range decks, with some control. Maybe Combo's dead right now? I don't know, it could just be my meta. But it's been a while since I heard someone say "tendrils at storm-ten."

pandaman

07-22-2012, 07:39 PM

Check out the 12th place list at GP Ghent.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpgnt12/welcome

No Swords to Plowshares! Ballsy!

berksowl

07-22-2012, 07:44 PM

Check out the 12th place list at GP Ghent.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpgnt12/welcome

No Swords to Plowshares! Ballsy!

The decklist shows 56 cards though. :( ....So he probably was playing 4 STPs.

pandaman

07-22-2012, 11:19 PM

Haha, probably why I shouldn't read decklists before I've had my morning coffee.

Interesting idea, playing the 4-ofs, like quadlazer dredge. And I've been looking at Eiganjo Castle in my binder for ages with nostalgia, I used to use it in D&T before damage on the stack ceased to exist, when the deck played Mangara and Isamaru. But I dropped it when we dropped to 3 Mangara. Now with Thalia in the deck seems like a good time to think about bringing it back. I wonder how often he got to use it and whether it was worth it? Must test myself.

And the list played Batterskull. Sure to reignite the debate over it that has been going on in here. I would still play the usual Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI though, being my pet deck, I just love drawing cards, returning creatures and killing weenies with that combination!

Fry

07-24-2012, 12:35 PM

And the list played Batterskull. Sure to reignite the debate over it that has been going on in here. I would still play the usual Jitte, SoLaS, SoFaI though, being my pet deck, I just love drawing cards, returning creatures and killing weenies with that combination!

I completely agree, I love shenanigans, perhaps that's why this is my go to pet deck, followed by MUD...

berksowl

07-24-2012, 10:27 PM

So call it Death and Shenanigans?

I was interested to come across this deck by Jordon Robbins while searching through decklists from this year's SCG Opens. 9th place in the Baltimore Open this March. Call it Death and Staxes (its a standard list, but with 1x Crucible of Worlds and 2x Armageddon).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45097

3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Armageddon
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

7 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Karakas

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Absolute Law
1 Aegis of Honor
1 Aura of Silence
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Disenchant
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte

ThomasEnevoldsen

07-25-2012, 12:07 PM

Hey guys!

First time posting here. I played a similar deck to the lists I have seen on here to 12th place at the recent GP Ghent, and I just read a couple of posts and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents on the deck.

First of all, the list!

4 Mangara
4 Mother
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
9 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas

Sideboard:

1 Pithing Needle
3 Gut Shot
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring

Some general thoughts! The way I see it, this is not just some 'cute deck' that has some cool tricks to blow unsuspecting opponents out of the water. At its core, this deck should be labeled monowhite control. That's what it does, controls the game. One might think that being monowhite that would be a very hard thing to achieve, and especially the high creature count makes people think otherwise, but the way I see it, this is definitely a control deck. Having said that, in my opinion it is also one of the best deck (if not THE best deck) in the current Legacy format. This comes with a big 'if' though. It requires an able pilot. The skills you need to play this deck cannot, however, be learnt through just jamming a bunch of games and seeing all the interactions. This deck is not based on its own interactions. This deck succeeds because it can constantly adapt to the opponent's game plan, both from the start of the game (the overall strategy of his deck) and throughout the game, once it shapes into something different. That is why this deck is so great. Because it always has game, no matter what the opponent brings to the table. But it is an important realization to know that playing the deck actually means that (for the most part), we don't have a game plan. Our plan is to watch the other deck unfold, and then punish its weaknesses. Because all decks in Legacy have weaknesses (except, of course, this one). It is a format of glass cannons, mostly, and you might think this would mean a lot of combo, but in fact all decks, that do not play basic lands, have inherent weaknesses. As a start-off point, usually we can say that attacking the mana is our gameplan. But more generally, it is about blanking the opponents' cards, so that no matter how much time they sit around durdling with their brainstorms/Jace/Intuition/life from the loam/Ponder/GSZ, their cards will still be inferior to what is currently happening in the game. It is, however, important to keep in mind that we are talking about very small percentages, because this deck is so pilot-dependent that it is hard to talk about good/bad matchups.

The number one skill to have is to determine your role in the game. And I find that a lot of Legacy players have a hard time doing this, because they see every deck as 'their' deck. Their pet deck. Either one they've been playing for ages and know all the interactions in, or one they've seen do well and want to replicate those results. But acquiring this skill comes mostly, I believe, from playing different formats. Limited is a good place to start, because the roles shift so quickly in the games, and experiencing this over and over means improving one's ability to assign oneself these roles. It is not purely a question of aggro or control or 'racing'. Because of the nature of Legacy (unlike perhaps any other format), all decks are easy to hate out. You can build a deck to beat any deck in the format consistently (but, of course, lose to pretty much everything else), because of how fragile the decks are compared to the potent answers. This deck is built to beat the format rather than a certain deck, and that is why it shines. But of course, taking this line means having no 90% matchups, but always having something to disrupt with. And once you disrupt a Legacy deck's engine, because of the nature of the format, the cards become narrow enough that you can beat them with an M13 limited deck once the dust has settled.

With this deck, you get into a lot of situations of inevitability, where prolonging the game only means you get further away from losing. And it does so on so many different angles that usually, the opponent won't even see it happening (and THAT, is the real 'trick' of the deck). Equipment, Mother of Runes, Vigilance creatures, Mangara, Karakas are all able to 'blank' whatever the opponent is trying to do. I noticed there were some discussion regarding whether or not this deck (or iterations thereof) should play Batterskull. But asking this question is not so much about preference in card or how it acts in certain matchups, it is a question defining what, on a more general level, the deck is trying to do. I considered playing a Sword (of whatever kind) at the GP, but I do not see myself bringing it in against anyone (or fetching it out, for that matter). Batterskull prolongs the game, Swords do not. And with this deck, we are in the business of prolonging games! This is also why playing Jotun Grunt never even crossed my mind. It is card that gives the initiative back to the opponent I feel. Now the onus is on us to keep it alive (and utilizing it!), rather than where we want to be, behind the wheel adjusting the course based on our opponent. A Grunt that gets to smash for 16 before it dies (and that seems like a pretty good gorilla to me) is incredibly useless. This deck has little to no 'reach' in its traditional sense, because what are doing is crafting a board state that makes it inevitable that we win. An example of this is boarding Relics and removal in against RUG Delver (granted, the Revokers and Mangara are useless/slow, so it's not like we are sacrificing much). To help grind out a board state that makes it inevitable that we win. And why we don't just blow the relic to take 0 from a Tarmogoyf, but keep utilizing it's ability and slowly take control over the game. Cards like Daze, Force of Will, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, Ponder lose value the longer the game goes on, and our cards retain their value both early and late. And these types of cards are in almost all the decks in Legacy right now, and that is something for us to prey upon!

So this was not really card/matchup specific but more a general analysis of the mindset behind the deck. But even that is hard to define, as it shifts so ever gently through the course of the game, sometimes even while spells are on the stack! And why we cannot just treat this as a 'pet' deck and jam games until we know every Flickerwispable target in the format. We have to understand what exactly is going on in each game against every deck, figure out what they are doing, and figure out what, with the tools we have, we can do to disrupt that. And this deck is usually versatile enough that there will always be something to do. Why we play 4 of each of the cards that we want, because they are the best their is.

So I guess if you made it this far, you have probably forgotten a lot of it already so I'll just reiterate my main point: You are not trying to win with this deck, you are trying to adapt to whatever your opponent is doing to win, but you have to keep in mind that this can be both taking an active and a proactive approach along with making your opponent BELIEVE that you are taking one of those approaches, when in fact you are not.

And all of this is why Plains is clearly the best card in Legacy.

Finn

07-25-2012, 04:09 PM

Hey Thomas. Congratulations on your performance in Ghent. It is quite refreshing to see a talented young player who actually "gets" the deck. I am constantly astounded to see just how poorly pros are at analyzing (and presumably playing)D&T. I cringe when I hear someone call the deck either white weenie (as Starcity has done on numerous occasions) or aggro. Finally, explaining the difference is so tiresome that I find myself no longer bothering to correct people.

The thing that some players have recognized is how the deck allows you to ply your play-skill to victory. We are used to hearing this about blue, and especially with the decision trees that blue combo creates. But the play skill D&T capitalized upon is your knowledge of how to disable the opponent's deck, rather than fiddling with your own. I think that this is a new area for Magic, as it does not fit neatly into accepted roles, with creatures doing the work of control. We call it disruption typically, but the deck tends to lose when it has to go aggro, so logically it is a control deck.

I disagree with some of your card choices of course, but that is minutia. Really top notch performance analysis.

jrw1985

07-25-2012, 05:41 PM

I know I would be interested in reading a tournament report. Hint hint.

jotungrunt

07-25-2012, 11:16 PM

I've been playing this deck for the last year, and I'm still surprised by how well it holds its own no matter how the format shifts(unless its all mono black)

my current list-

4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 flickerwisp
3 thalia
3 phyrexian revoker
3 serra avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of LaS
1 Sword of FaI
1 Jitte
1 Butterskull

15 plains
1 maze of ith
3 karakas
4 wasteland

SB-
1 Thalia
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 COP: Red
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Serenity
1 O-Ring
2 Path to Exile

depending on who comes to legacy nights ill swap SB slots with 3 Leyline of Sanctity, 3 Leyline of the Void, or 3 Mindbreak Trap.
the black leylines and traps are great against people not expecting them from a mono white deck, especially if i win G1 and they don't have a way to remove them, or stop them. ill also occasionally run Wheel of Sun and Moon or Cage.

for a long time i was running basically the same list but with a slightly lower curve, -1 Flickerwisp +1 Jotun Grunt, before that it was kind of higher with Mindcensors and a third Mangara along with a singleton Stonecloaker. i found the Mindcensors too slow and i didn't want to rely on the Mangara combo so heavily, going back to a fourth Wisp has been nice since a lot of times he's arguably the best creature in the deck. also I'm lacking ports, i don't own them anymore, but will sometimes borrow 3, which i feel is the right number, the single maze has also been good, its one of those slots where its nice to know you have access to it. I've been thinking about adding 3-4 Arbiters lately since so many decks in my meta search a lot, and cutting to 3 stone forge, on the butter skull subject, its usually the last thing i fetch, Jitte usually being first, its the worst getting your mystic nuked and wasting your time getting it. the jitte is just easier to cast and better across the board, i do like to keep the skull in since its about the only decent thing we can show and tell/eureka to have a chance, also the paths will probably soon become condemns or something, since we should be denying mana. I've also tried Crusader to varying degrees of success, he's sick with equipment, but doesn't really do anything except beat, i have raced Progenitus's's's with equipped crusaders to great effect though. I'm open to any suggestions or new tech. and a damn way to beat the hell out of elves!

Artlee

07-26-2012, 12:29 PM

Finn do you mind sharing your current list?

Finn

07-26-2012, 03:46 PM

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phrexian Revoker
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard
2 Oust
1 Humility
1 Honor of the Pure
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Enlightened Tutor

That is from memory (I'm at work), but is probably right. I apologize for letting the OP get so out of date. I used to do a better job with it and with the Merfolk one. I have been fooling around with only two weapons in the main for awhile. I'm not completely satisfied but no particular build satisfies me these days. I have been kicking around the idea of flat out cutting Serra Avengers to bring the Revokers and Grunts to where they should be. I love them but the cuts are getting harder. They are the only critters left that don't disrupt. They are bad against lightning bolts and combo and hottest against Merfolk and Delvers. It's not a precise bunch.

Artlee

07-27-2012, 05:50 AM

Your deck looks more like the classic with tutor board. It's quite some time since i've seen sofai in stoneforge builds. Are you seeing merfolks and goblins in your meta?

With the rising of merfolk decks, what is your usual gameplan? They have an awful lot of lords and naming vial with revoker also hits us. I guess Humility is strong but only if we manage to find equipment first. Humility can even be better for them as they have manlands that remain 2/2.

Barbed Blightning

07-30-2012, 01:59 PM

Here's my report of my 6-2 record at SCG Buffalo, granting me a 25th place finish!

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24342-6-2-at-SCG-Open-in-Buffalo-NY-with-Mono-W-Death-amp-Taxes

pandaman

07-31-2012, 07:05 PM

A tournament report from my new local, Tuesday night Legacy. 15 players, 4 rounds.

I was wondering what to play and was stuck between Doomsday Maniac combo and D&T. My mate asked me if he could borrow my Underground Seas and Flooded Strands. Death & Taxes it is! Gave me a good feeling inside, always great to play the deck that got you into Legacy, and which is my pet deck and my favourite. I took the following:

Main (60)

1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mangara of Corondor
1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)

2 Oust
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Serenity
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Pithing Needle

I wanted to try out the 12th place GP Ghent list. I usually play something that is much closer to Finn's list, with 2 Jotun Grunt's maindeck, and Swords of x and y. But I thought I would give it a go. Verdict at the end of the report.

I love Enlightened Tutor sideboards, so I always go with them. Added 2 Oust because I was expecting an aggro creature-based meta.

Round 1 vs Hypergenesis 2-0

Game 1

I called it while shuffling up, but he wouldn't confirm. I just had that feeling I was against combo. We both keep our 7. He goes turn 1 land, SSG, SSG, Show and Tell into Emrakul, and I drop a Wasteland. My turn I drop the Karakas I had in my opener, bounce Emrakul and Waste his land. He's down to 2 cards and doesn't draw into mana fast enough, and I land a Thalia and a Stoneforge fetching Batterskull on turns 2 and 3 respectively. He scoops.

Out: 4 Serra Avenger, 4 Mangara of Corondor,
In: 4 Enlightened Tutor, 1 Oblivion Ring, 1 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Ensnaring Bridge, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 COP: Red

Game 2

He mulls to 4 and simply says "go". I Enlightened Tutor at the end of his second turn into Ensnaring Bridge, then drop Canonist, Thalia and Revoker naming Griselbrand on turns 2, 3 and 4 in that order. He doesn't find enough land to do anything about it, and extends his hand.

1-0 matches, 2-0 games

Round 2 vs Mono Black Pox

Game 1

He starts with a Cabal Therapy, but whiffs because he has absolutely no idea what I'm playing. He plays a Dark Confidant on turn 2 and strangely sacs in to flashback Cabal Therapy, nabbing two of my Stoneforge Mystics. I drop a Thalia on my turn 2, a long succession of creatures follow, and he runs out of removal. I beat him down with Thalia, Revoker naming Liliana of the Veil, and Batterskull.

In: Nothing
Out: Nothing

Game 2

He starts with Swamp, go, and I mirror with Plains, go. He plays a Bloodghast, but again I just spew forth creatures so fast that, even though he has more removal this time, he can't keep up. Never saw a non-creature spell this entire round.

2-0 matches, 4-0 games

Round 3 vs Esper Stoneblade

Game 1

The game goes long, as it usually does against Stoneblade when this deck is doing well. We burn through resources, but we eventually end up with Batterskull on the table and enough mana to bounce it, which works better for him than me. So I cast Revoker naming Batterskull, which works much better for me than him, because I have a Flickerwisp in my hand. He offers the Batterskulls trade and I snap take it, then I Flickerwisp mine to get a new Germ token. It ends shortly thereafter.

In: Nothing
Out: Nothing

Game 2

I get stuck on 2 land without a vial. I don't draw a land for 6 turns while my hand fills up with 3 drops. I lose to Batterskull equipped with Sword of Feast and Famine.

In: Nothing
Out: Nothing

Game 3

I get stuck on 2 lands again, but this time I have more two drops, and, aided principally by Thalia making his stuff harder to cast and his Snapcasters and Stoneforges unable to attack, I drag it into the long game, where I make him burn Forces on enough cards that I can force through what I really want to resolve, a Serra Avenger. He pierced two of my Vials, but once the Avenger resolves I start flying over for 3 and kill a Jace along the way. Thalia joins the party and it's over shortly thereafter in 5 life chunks.

3-0 matches, 6-1 games

Round 4 vs White Stax

I offer the split and we each settle for $35 in store credit. I come in first in the standings for bragging rights.

The Verdict On "Quadlazer D&T" - my opinion

I liked all of the creatures as 4-ofs (except Mangara). Seeing Thalia and Revoker every game is amazing, because they get killed A LOT, especially when you name the right thing with Revoker and are stuffing up flashback for Snapcaster Mage. However, I still found myself missing my Swords of x and y. I don't know why, but it just doesn't feel right without them. Having said that, I used Batterskull a lot, and it gives you a fair bit of breathing space. I think I'll test the same list -1 Mangara of Corondor, -1 Batterskull, +1 Sword of Fire and Ice, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow. Mangara is the one creature that you don't usually want to see more than one of, even with 4 Karakas and 1 Eiganjo Castle.

I didn't miss Grunt. However, I didn't play against Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Aggro Loam or Dredge. If I had played against Loam I would have been crying for him! So I'm undecided on whether he should find a place in the sideboard...

Sideboard

I didn't use the sideboard at all in 2 matches. I think I should have brought in Relic of Progenitus against Esper Stoneblade, but ah well, the deck is good against Stoneblade anyway. As above, thinking of Grunts in there somehow.

Suggestions, criticism, comments welcome. My first sanctioned Legacy tournament in 6 months. So good to be in a city that plays Legacy weekly!

random6

08-04-2012, 07:08 AM

Regarding to the list of Thomas Enevoldsen, how do you side in Fiend Hunter and Elspeth, Knight-Errant ? And in which matchups ?

Congratulations on your performances Thomas, Barbed Blightning and pandaman and thanks for your reports :)

ThomasEnevoldsen

08-07-2012, 10:23 AM

Hey guys!

Awesome to see people doing well with the deck, although I whole-heartedly and quite fundamentally disagree with some of the card choices (@Finn, I don't think we are talking minutiae with even 1 change of a card in the deck :smile:).

First of all, the equipment package. I see almost all the lists packing Swords of various kind. Light and Shadow and Fire/Ice seems to be the most popular. I agree that one (max!) sword would be a nice card to have, as it is a great way of finishing things off or grinding out an advantage. The problem I have with Swords, however, is two-fold. First, in a lot of cases, an active Jitte will get you out of trouble way better than a Sword could ever do (I'm talking both F/I and L/S). Protection from Blue is cute against Merfolk, but Jitte is more than cute, it wins games (especially on vigilance duty, if they have already gotten out enough Lords). The same with Goblins. I'm sure you are not forgetting that Thalia is a first-striker, so worrying about losing the creature too is lower. One could argue that by playing a Swords, you can make your Stoneforge Mystic a real threat (and not just a Steelshaper's Gift+speedbump), but fetching Batterskull will do that too, creating an army with just one card. And yes, I hear you all when you say that a dead SFM means a dead Batterskull. But you still just traded one for one (with a lategame plan now!), and all those other times, it just shines so much and gives you a proactive plan as well as inevitability. As for Light and Shadow, the recurring element is great and all, but when you think about it, not that many of our creatures actually go to the yard (especially against control, where I would probably want it the most). Swords to Plowshares removes, Terminus is to the bottom, Jace bounces, Mangara Exiles itself. Nope, I'll take a Batterskull anyday for grinding out those decks.

I will agree that there are some situations, where I would like to fetch up a Sword, but my second problem with Swords is: What to cut!? I have gone down my list (the 12th place from GP Ghent) and I can't find a single card to cut. This is (in my opinion, of course) the cleanest, most efficient decklist with this deck. You want all your cards, all the time. All cards are ranging from INCREDIBLE to simply 'fine', but never below that, in seemingly every matchup. I want 4 Serra Avengers, because they close out creature games. I want Flickerwisp because of its many uses (even without Vial, with an active Vial I would like to order 16 Flickerwisps, please). Revoker is a beast against every deck almost. Stoneforge is the finisher in the deck. Aether Vial is the most powerful card in the deck. Swords is the best removal of all time. I would perhaps like to go down to 3.5 Mangaras, but since that is not an option, I would always like to see one, so 4 it is. I saw a post from the tournament report describing the deck as having a superior gameplan in every step of the match (early, middle and late). I really like and agree with that description. That is the power of the deck. Every matchup must be clawed away from the opponent's hand, and while it is our responsibility to do the legwork, there is always hope when playing this deck, exactly because of its broad interactions early, middle and late.

This is exactly why even cutting one of these awesome cards means decreasing your chance of winning. This is one of those decks where the core IS the deck, and no piece is replaceable or unnecessary. 4 of everything please.

As for the sideboard, I'm not entirely sure in what direction to go card for card, but I know that I prefer a non-tutor sideboard. The reason is mostly consistency with the deck (I know that sounds odd, cutting tutors and talking about consistency). While I feel the deck has game against literally (in the actual, literal sense of the word), ANY LEGACY DECK OUT THERE, I only think that is the case because we maximize our edge at every opportunity. And we have to, because we only have the 7 cards in our starting hand to work with. No filtering, no card drawing (except SFM, don't give me that Sword of F/I nonsense :smile:). Losing a card to Tutor is more devastating with this deck than with other decks, that can afford it due to a more powerful lategame. Don't get me wrong, our lategame is powerful, but only because we never waste resources (except when we waste other people's lands!). The other side of this is that I feel more Legacy decks are playing fair now, and there are less Glass Cannons than there may have been before so I don't want to block my board with 'powerful, tutorable, but narrow cards'. I want consistency Pre- and Post-board, always optimizing what the Main Deck did, while cutting those 3-6 cards that do not pull their entire weight. That is why I believe in a standard sideboard.

And just because I play with a lot of one-offs doesn't mean I certainly create high-variance situations. I am merely increasing percentages a little bit. I actually constructed the sideboard by taking out cards I wanted in every matchup, and then see how many I needed to put in, before settling on a broad set of cards.

My sideboard as of now

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Gut Shot
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Leonin Bola (used to be Tormod's Crypt)

Elspeth is for a lot of different purposes. Against Maverick, it is a fine card to go over the top with in board stalls (or to create that board stall). Sometimes, Maverick games are about the mana, and that is why we only want one, we have other ways of going over the top (Mangara or SFM+Manriki and then equip them out). It is also for Pernicious Deed-like control decks, which this deck can have problems with if they also play Massacre (as we cannot create a Mother+Revoker board, for instance. Also a reason to run Eiganjo Castle, it dodges the Massacre discount). It is also a fine card in the mirror (which, of course, should be the most popular deck in the room :smile:).

Ethersworn Canonist is for Elves and Storm, pretty self-explanatory. Sometimes I board in 1-2 against Snapcaster decks, if I feel like some maindeck cards aren't pulling their weight (e.g. Mother of Runes against Terminus control).

Fiend Hunter is a great catch-all (reset-able with Flickerwisp!) to Show&Tell, Reanimator and even grindy matchups like Goblins, Merfolk, Maverick, Delver. He gets boarded in a lot (sometimes because of lackluster MD cards, like against Delver). One of the best in the SB!

Gut shots are for Elves, Maverick and mirror. I also board in a couple on the draw against Goblins, as we usually only lose to Lackey god-draws, and we have fewer options on the draw (mother can't block, Stoneforge t2 is no good).

Manriki-Gusari is pretty easy. If they rely on equipment, this is a good card.

Oblivion Ring: Another catch-all that deals with Planeswalker-control, stupid enchantments (Humility comes to mind), Big creatures and also fine vs. Show&Tell.

Relics contribute to our grinding strategy against the Delver decks. I usually board in 1 against Maverick too, and more if I see Tarmogoyfs (unlikely, I know). Of course against Dredge and Reanimator, and also probably one against Snapcaster decks. Great against Team America too! I've seen some pox-like discard decks, and I take in a couple here too, as it is a permanent you can put on the board, mess with any loam-engine/Nether Spirit, Raven's Crime and also conserve a card for later use, when you are living off the top, as these matchups usually go.

Leonin Bola is a new addition, as I didn't feel Tormod's Crypt was pulling it's weight. This is of course for Emrakuls and Griselbrands, and it particularly shines against Sneak Attack, as they cannot put their Legend in again (which is miserable, when you have Karakas). A try-out for now, but I think it will do good things.

The only thing I hate right now are Progenitus, but until that sees more of the metagame, this is in my opinion the ideal sideboard. An answer to that could be Phyrexian Metamorph, so I'd have to try and fit in 2-3 of those (they are not that dead otherwise, so not that big of a risk, of course can be brought in to legendrule others too).

Feedback is welcome, especially for defenders of Jotun Grunt and Swords of various kinds!

Firm believer in playsets :wink:

Barbed Blightning

08-07-2012, 11:27 AM

My list isn't far too different from yours, except I DO run the F/S, L/S swords over batterskull. Aside from enjoying the utility of the swords far too much to switch over to what is essentially a good beater, I can attest to the value of each sword. L/S's recursion has won me matches against RUG simply by negating their removal (+2/+2 also gets around most burn) and allowing me to block 5/6 goys all day long. L/S also shrinks goyfs if you're the only one with a dude in their yard, or if revoker is the only artifact. L/S is good againt Burn decks for a similar reason, but also helps get back the life you're so rapidly losing (I'll agree that Bskull gets in there for one more lifelink).

F/I is also a house in its own right. The card draw may seem cute, but I've found that its a great way to get out of a fateseal-lock with Jace, useful against discard decks, and the perfect way to speed out of unpleasant combo matchups. Pro-JTMS, Pro-Wipe Away/Echoing Truth, Pro-Inkwell Leviathan et. al. is very relevant to me, esp. since I have high tide players floating around in my area.

Also, what merfolk decks have you been playing against that fold to jitte? Now that they have 20 lords (or whatever) I'm just not seeing how Jitte is the house you describe it to be. It's great against Gobs, and I know Thalia has first strike, however, F/I is great in both of these matches as well (more than Jitte against Fish, imo).

My problems with Jitte are as follows:

It can be spell snare'd.

It needs to be charged before it is remotely useful

It's legendary quality and popularity make it short-lived

It's useless if someone uses a pithing needle on it, even if equipped.

It provides no inherent protection.

...the same of which can't be said of the Swords.

Conclusion: with 4 avengers in your main, why run fewer equips? She's our best sword holder, and she hits for 5 if she has a Sword on her. Sure, Bskull is powerful with mystic, but the germ is short-lived, the cost to bounce-replay is high no matter how you play it, and the equip cost is insane. I've played with bskull in my main before and I went back to 2 Swords and a jitte because I wanted a more consistent deck that provided me with the options to retain that consistency.

Further, I treat the swords as a means to augment my creatures and exploit the weaknesses of my matchups. F/I is used to speed things up/add more removal, L/S is used to rebuild forces/stabilize, jitte helps fill the spots in between.

Khamul

08-07-2012, 04:20 PM

My sideboard as of now

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Gut Shot
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Leonin Bola (used to be Tormod's Crypt)

Small Question: How did you feel with 3 Relic as your only Grave Hate? I always feel like less than 4 pieces of GY Hate is suicide against Reanimator or Dredge.

Otherwise, I completely agree with having Playsets for consistency. I would still like one Sword of Light and Shadow in my MB, though.

timmycolossus

08-07-2012, 06:17 PM

Tom I like your reasoning for the deck. Personally my list was running the swords as well (SOLS, SOFI) But I cut them to try out two grunt instead. My list was this because of the amount of rug I was seeing in my meta...

4x mom
4x sfm
4x grunt
4x revoker
4x thalia
2x mangara
4x Flicker wisp

12x Spells
4x swords
4x vial
2x umezawa
1x sofi
1x sols

22x land
10x plains
4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port

SB
4x faerie macabre
2x oust
1x sword of feast and famine
2x tormods crypt
2x oblivion ring
4x ethersworn canonist

I was running 4 offs because as you said consistency. After seeing your list I changed it to.

4x mom
4x sfm
4x serra avenger
4x revoker
4x thalia
2x jotun grunt
2x mangara
4x Flicker wisp

12x Spells
4x swords
4x vial
1x umezawa
1x batterskull

22x land
10x plains
4x karakas
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port

SB
4x faerie macabre
2x gut shot
2x jotun grunt
1x sword of light and shadow
2x mangara of corondor
4x ethersworn canonist

Nice job topping and ty for your opinion and report

ThomasEnevoldsen

08-08-2012, 11:37 AM

Thanks for your response, BL, I'll try and counterpoint some of what you are saying. My point, however, is still going to be overall consistency, and it seems to me that the swords are more like blowouts (in both directions) than actual, reliable threats. But I'll go through your comment:

You mention the 'utility' of the swords package. I will point to my consistency argument and say that having utility in a lot of ways eschews consistency. As I've said before, I agree that Swords are nice to have (they are, afterall, very good cards), but they take slots away from the deck that I don't feel are affordable. All the creatures are necessary 4-ofs in my opinion, and that leaves no room for swords :(

So let's look at how they compare to Batterskull/Jitte! I think calling Batterskull 'a good beater' is quite the understatement. Mentioning all the good he/it does seems repetitive, as it is in fact all there on the card. Most importantly, I just feel he straight up outclasses Light and Shadow. This is mostly due to the fact that almost every matchup nowadays revolves around creatures (and if it doesn't, well then we are in a hurry to close out games, and Batterskull deals 4 damage and Light and Shadow deals 2, it's basic math!). He lifelinks for more, he works on both offense and defense (I realize Serra Avenger with Sword does that as well, but if I am allowed that situation, I'll choose a Jitte over L/S anyways...), and as regards to Light and Shadows recursion, Batterskull bring his own body! L/S requires both a connect with the opponent's face as well as 2(!) creatures in the yard to improve on Batterskull's stats. And even so, we are down 2 life in the race (which we are, btw, not vigilanting our way out of). You mention that L/S's recursion has won you matches against RUG simply by negating their removal (+2/+2 also gets around most burn) and allowing you to block 5/6 goys all day long. I will agree that a steady stream of blockers is a potential upgrade on Batterskull (who only blocks once), but can't we just swing back and negate the lifeloss? Or, if he has 2 goyfs and we are swinging with a flier, Doesn't Jitte accomplish much the same (negating the damage by gaining 4 life every turn?). Saying that L/S shrinks a goyf in some circumstances is, well, pretty circumstantial to say the least. It requires a connect against a board that has a goyf, so we need a flier (we have 8). Getting back revoker is fine for shrinking, but I board him out anyways, so that is only game 1 applicable (and again, pretty circumstantial, as he is already basically a mulligan against that deck, since they started not packing Lavamancers).

You mention that "L/S is good againt Burn decks (I'll agree that Bskull gets in there for one more lifelink)". Batterskull gets in for life turn 4 (against, essentially, a turn 4 combo deck), whereas you would need a (surviving) mother and 4 lands to do that with L/S, and they can of course just Bolt it then (or in response to equip), whereas no removal hits an active Batterskull (at least to my memory, Burn is not a popular deck where I play).

I guess the most prohibiting factor of Batterskull is the manacost (at least that's what I'm seeing in people's posts). It's hard to discuss briefly the situations where Batterskulls mana becomes prohibitive against L/S need of a creature and a turn to play it+turn to equip (in other words, time). I find it oftentimes that the surprise factor of a Sword hit is what makes it the most powerful, and that of course requires 5 mana just like Batterskull. Biting that into pieces is of course preferable at times, however if we are stuck on mana, we usually have better things to do than drop a Sword of Light and Shadow onto the board while our opponent is usually one-upping us (since they've got the mana!).I'll also add the fact that not a lot of stuff actually 'dies' in the beginning (as in, goes to the graveyard), and if it does, we are desperate for creatures to wield the swords to get back or missing friends. This usually puts a good Sword hit (lifegain + recursion of already lost creature) at the earliest on turn 4, and that is against one removal spell (that is not Swords or Path) and us having creatures turn 1 and 2. Not unlikely, but not especially likely either? And if our one-drop is Mother, and they don't kill it, then usually nothing dies for a while (unless it's with mass removal, in which case our sword again can look kind of lonely. And that is just comparing Batterskull to L/S straight up mana-wise, let's not forget the guy who brough Batterskull with him, and all the times he survives (or we have a mother, or we don't mind him dying because we are playing another threat the turn after, or we halted our opponent for spending a removal on a creature that already got us an advantage).

In short, I don't think it's close with Light and Shadow vs. Batterskull.

Moving on to Fire/Ice. You mention that the card draw is a great way to get out of a fateseal-lock with Jace. I agree 100 %. It does however require us to have a creature to connect with, and if we had that, we'd already be attacking Jace (or he'd be bouncing our guy, but then the lock is broken). This however, is the strongest pull for any of the swords over Jitte/Skull, I think. None of those match up particularly well against Jace, unless we have another creature and the Germ Token and 5 mana, which, I guess, is not that likely, but they resolved Jace (through manadisruption and fighting off our other creatures), so maybe we are not that far from the 5 mana equip cost. Also, we have 4 Mangara and 4 Revoker (because we are not playing Swords :smile:), so we have plenty of answers to Jace before he becomes live too.

You mention it's useful against discard decks. Well if we have a guy to strap it on, sure, but at least Batterskull is a topdeck that comes with it's own body, whereas Swords is a rather measly one, if we have an empty board. But I will say that in this case, a Sword of F/I is better than both Jitte and Skull. Dedicated discard decks are, however, pretty rare in Legacy, so not something I would actively keep slots open for.

As for speeding up combo matches, Batterskull and Fire Ice do the same amount of damage, but Skull nets you life against Storm (we assume, here, that Mystic lives), which could be relevant. Givign pro blue is really good too though (on the right bear), so F/I has that going for it as well. You mention High Tide, but I haven't seen that deck in forever, so it is not much of a concern to me, but I'll agree that Sword shines better than Skull or Jitte here (Though we should have plenty of disruption for the matchup regardless...)

As for tribal, I quote you here: "Also, what merfolk decks have you been playing against that fold to jitte? Now that they have 20 lords (or whatever) I'm just not seeing how Jitte is the house you describe it to be. It's great against Gobs, and I know Thalia has first strike, however, F/I is great in both of these matches as well (more than Jitte against Fish, imo)".

'Fold' is probably too strong a word for Jitte's effect, unless we can keep them on 1 lord at a time (or get to attack twice). F/I doesn't kill anything either, though, unless we try to race them, which I suppose can be difficult against a "lord-heavy" draw. Also, they have Mutavauls to stop the bleeding (and Waste for our Ports?). Jitte will often cause you to lose a creature, and that is definetely a point against it, but our plan should be to go long against them, so just one Jitte hit means we never have to lose a creature again (F/I forces us to go into a race against them, which is not what our deck does best, but still, I agree, it's a viable option).

And against Goblins, the sword definetely shines more than Jitte, but they are usually so fast that I go for Skull first anyways just to stabilize, but that still puts F/I above Jitte in this matchup, I'll admit to that.

Then, you're general points about Jitte:

"My problems with Jitte are as follows":

It can be spell snare'd. - It's a 1-of against a field not particularly filled with SPell Snares, and moreover, our decks are filled with 2-drops, and Jitte is usually far from the most relevant card against decks packing Spell Snare, so Snare away! (and in counterpoint, I'll mention Spell Pierce as a more legitimate answer to Swords that to Jitte!).

It needs to be charged before it is remotely useful - That is a problem when we are facing bigger creatures, but on the other hand, having to connect means they can be rather dead in the wrong matchups (where protection is of little relevance). Evasion works for both equips (as well as Mother granting protection), so I don’t see any reason to discuss merits of that, although if I could choose, I would rather want the Jitte charging every turn than a Sword if I’m facing creatures of various kinds, as there is so much more utility in it. But that is probably matchup-dependant, which is something I won’t discuss here (already too much text!)

It's legendary quality and popularity make it short-lived – Thank god it’s legendary! Our deck has a hard time beating other Jittes!

It's useless if someone uses a pithing needle on it, even if equipped. – Agreed, although the situations are not that many in my opinion, in which we have had an active Sword/Jitte, they played the Needle, and we are not somehow still looking good.

It provides no inherent protection. – True, only when charged (then it can beat up Tarmogoyfs and perhaps even knights!).

...the same of which can't be said of the Swords.

“Conclusion: with 4 avengers in your main, why run fewer equips? She's our best sword holder, and she hits for 5 if she has a Sword on her. Sure, Bskull is powerful with mystic, but the germ is short-lived, the cost to bounce-replay is high no matter how you play it, and the equip cost is insane. I've played with bskull in my main before and I went back to 2 Swords and a jitte because I wanted a more consistent deck that provided me with the options to retain that consistency”.
As I’ve already said, in most matchups it is my opinion that I would rather have an Avenger wielding Jitte than Sword. It is not that I don’t want a 3rd equipment, but there are things I want more! Your point about the Germ being short-lived means they spent a removal, which was going to hit whoever we were trying to equip with our sword, costing us a lot of tempo in the process. Sword stays on for the next guy, but so does Skull (just give it a little more time!). About the equip cost, Swords are only a tad bit cheaper on the whole (and if we are hardcasting both to ‘equip’, we get the same effect from Skull as we do from a Sword).
Maybe it’s just my games, but I always plan for the long game, because this deck wants to get there usually, and in that long game, Batterskull always ends up playing a role, and does so at the expense of opponents’ resources that they could’ve spent on other things.

I look forward to replies, I love a good discussion (and convince me what to cut for F/I, I am still not close to sold on L/S)…

Go plains!
:wink:

Barbed Blightning

08-08-2012, 01:49 PM

In terms of what to cut for SoFI: I would personally go down to 3 Mangara. You mentioned earlier that you wanted around 3.5 of them, and since SoFI can shoot things anyway, Mangara becomes more useful for taking out noncreature permanents. I've always ran 3 and seeing him has never been an issue.

In an effort to save space and time, I'll condense my counterpoints.

-Much of your rebuttal seems to revolve around how swords need a creature to equip to, while batterskull brings its own body. True, yes, but our deck has a threat density on par with that of Maverick's: We run around 26-28 creatures in our main deck alone. I doubt, even with more support creatures like mangara and mom, that we'd ever have a problem finding a creature to equip. And, as far as connection with a sword goes, 7-8 of our creatures fly. The format (in the States, at least) is surprisingly lacking in fliers, with only Delvers, Aven Mindcensor, Angel tokens and the fatties Reanimator/SneakShow plays being the only consistent threats. The Swords get through them (save Emrakul) regardless.

-Batterskull isn't guaranteed to drop turn 4 against burn, since it is relying on SFM. And yes, Burn is still a deck consistently in my meta.

-The Swords cost me, in total, about 4 to play and equip (SFM). 5 is the worst case scenario. And they almost always get attached to a creature who has been around since last turn. Batterskull has summoning sickness, and costs 7 (at its cheapest) if you want to reap the benefits immediately. With the extra mana I have from using the swords, I can port lands, keep a Karakas open to Mangara-lock or save Thalia, use wastelands, or play additional spells/creatures. Batterskull seems (or, at least was to me) an entire-turn commitment. Sometimes it was turn 3, others it was turn 6+. Regardless, given how much we use our lands for non-mana purposes, Batterskull is always a commitment--which crumples to spell pierce much harder than any other equipment.

I'm not saying Batterskull is bad. In fact, it's quite good--there's a reason why it's a popular combo with SFM, and I have no doubt that some of your games at GP Ghent (and elsewhere) were won by that card alone. However, I view the swords as an efficient means to augment our creatures' power level. Rather than having a powerhouse finisher, the Swords take our otherwise okay creatures and makes them harder to kill.

The +2/+2 gets around most burn, as well as -X/-1 effects that are really the bane of this deck, and can give us the P/T edge we need against op posing creatures. Their protection hinders removal (or forces two-for-ones), as well as allowing us to block creatures we should never be able to block profitably (L/S-equipped revoker blocks KotR all day), and the colorless removal of SoFI has helped me gun down opposing Moms many times.

The point is moot to argue further, in my opinion. It comes down to meta calls and preference--utility vs. consistency, as you say. Either package has its merits and flaws, but neither would I call necessarily bad choices (I obviously won't be dropping F/I and L/S for a while, but neither will you Bskull I suspect).

Finn

08-08-2012, 05:39 PM

You both make compelling arguments. I am going to stick my nose in here.

It seems to me that there are plenty of critters in our deck that demand immediate removal. I have noticed my opponents running short more often these days. I am not sure why. But I have been trying out batterskull since last week and it is better than I remember. I think that is why. I have it in my Sword of Light/Shadow slot right now.

This is a complicated topic though. I am nowhere near ready to settle.

hyggli

08-08-2012, 09:17 PM

Hi guys. I'm sticking with plains from the starting of this year and I find dnt one of the best decks out there in the format right now.

At this time I'm testing batterskull. At first, he/it was in the sideboard. Coming in vs burn, nic fit otp, threshold. Right now, I moved it to the main. Although we don't really have "the additional critter" needs, it is only the powerhouse we must fetch in certain situations.
Sometimes, while testing, there is no reason to find a sofi or a jitte, for example. I brought him into my MD(with some sweat on my brow, I admit it) cutting sofi. And I got quite surprised.

I really think sofi is much, much more "cuttable" than solas. The reasons are as follows. Solas gives pro white. maverick, lingering, miracles, can't of course block(and this is the main reason, for what implies me) or get swords/snapswords as long as you can stick one. And it happens.
Solas gives +2+2. In fact, sometimes, it is not enough for burn, but when you want to put it onto a thalia, you can just make it jump via karakas or throw in another one with vial. In addition, mangara is good, but not the creature you want to waste 5-6 mana on just to remove a permanent. Well, sometimes she is that good, but i think you are 1.already winning or 2.really losing(and they have a bolt or a stifle in hand to just make you waste 3+turns around resolving a successful mangara bounce&remove). So, I would say that +2+2 from solas is enough to throw you away from most burn. The other reason is that we want card advantage, but not the card advantage sofi provides(except for the burn sometimes; I do miss that, often, in the night, after elves did destroy ur jitte). With solas, you get what you want, not what the deck gives you. If you can stick a vial vs miracle in mid to late game, every card he has countered you, can comeback in a cbalance lock.
Tes, right now, doesn't want to waste slots packing many bounce spells vs us. He brings in Dread of night, and that's it. So, solas on a canonist or revoker by itself are great. Sometimes he can find his mono-chain of vapor but we just have to be careful to keep a vial @2. High tide can be a problem, without sofi, but that's just a meta-call imho.
At last but not the least, a batterskull with a solas is such entertaining. Vs other batterskulls. *gorsh*.

my two cents, and of course tell what you think about my impressions :P

timmycolossus

08-09-2012, 09:52 AM

I keep SOLAS in the board for MU where there is a lot of removal and you want one beater to win the match (control match ups). In terms of high tide a mom or a vial at 2 for canonist can be pretty effective if they try to storm out. Against decks deck with dread of night and the likes I would bring in the SOLs and o-ring if I have it in my board.

I am on board with Batterskull. The life gain and interaction with flickerwisp and sfm and vial is amazing. Just my two cents. Of course this all depends on the build.

timmycolossus

08-09-2012, 01:39 PM

Question for you tom... With your version of D&T what is your MU against U/W miracles? How much success did you find with gut shot and ethersworn canonist together against elves? Last question... What did you face in your rounds and what did you have difficulty with in the MU's you lost.

Artlee

08-09-2012, 02:52 PM

Something tells me Enevoldsen has had his portion of problems with elves :smile:

http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/gpgnt12/day2#9

timmycolossus

08-09-2012, 04:06 PM

I see. Has anyone thought about peacekeeper against elves. Then mangara lock or alpha strike for the win....

Esper3k

08-09-2012, 04:07 PM

Just playing a bunch of Canonists out of the board seems fine for me? They also are useful in other matchups too.

timmycolossus

08-09-2012, 04:19 PM

I think I will try that.

hyggli

08-09-2012, 08:52 PM

I also won, once, with multiple flickerwisps on regal force

Barbed Blightning

08-10-2012, 12:34 AM

I also won, once, with multiple flickerwisps on regal force

Wow. That actually made me laugh. Awesome man. :)

ThomasEnevoldsen

08-10-2012, 11:15 AM

Small Question: How did you feel with 3 Relic as your only Grave Hate? I always feel like less than 4 pieces of GY Hate is suicide against Reanimator or Dredge.

Otherwise, I completely agree with having Playsets for consistency. I would still like one Sword of Light and Shadow in my MB, though.

I feel it is too little for Dredge. But I also feel 4 is too little for Dredge. I have sacrificed that matchup (more or less), and am okay with it, as it is not that existant in my Meta. In Ghent, I had a Tormod's Crypt as well, and I guess that makes it a little better (didn't face it though). I like the Relics anyway, and with the right draw (of course, involving a Relic, but also Thalia and a Wasteland, there is an opportunity to win, although I agree it is not significant enough to call it a good matchup. Probably the weakest for the deck, I'd say, unless we count Charbelcher, then THAT is the weakest :smile:

-The Swords cost me, in total, about 4 to play and equip (SFM). 5 is the worst case scenario. And they almost always get attached to a creature who has been around since last turn. Batterskull has summoning sickness, and costs 7 (at its cheapest) if you want to reap the benefits immediately. With the extra mana I have from using the swords, I can port lands, keep a Karakas open to Mangara-lock or save Thalia, use wastelands, or play additional spells/creatures. Batterskull seems (or, at least was to me) an entire-turn commitment. Sometimes it was turn 3, others it was turn 6+. Regardless, given how much we use our lands for non-mana purposes, Batterskull is always a commitment--which crumples to spell pierce much harder than any other equipment.

The +2/+2 gets around most burn, as well as -X/-1 effects that are really the bane of this deck, and can give us the P/T edge we need against op posing creatures. Their protection hinders removal (or forces two-for-ones), as well as allowing us to block creatures we should never be able to block profitably (L/S-equipped revoker blocks KotR all day), and the colorless removal of SoFI has helped me gun down opposing Moms many times.

I took some liberty in quoting you, just to reply to your main point (I agree with you and Finn, this is far from a settled matter, although my quarrel is more with ADDING Swords rather than taking out Jitte/Skull :wink: I feel like your comment about the cost makes Batterskull equivalent to a Swords. Cost 4 total with SFM, 5 is worst case scenario, and then the 'haste'-aspect. A lot of the times, when you find Batterskull, it is as much for blocking duty, and there the lifelink works as pseudohaste in my opinion. Of course a sword is better against just an Insectile Aberration, but what about against that and a Mongoose? Or 2 Mongoose? I see the extra mana as vital just as you do, and I'll admit that that is really important, so definetely something in Swords favor. I never realized the thing about colorless removal against Mom. That actually seems really relevant, and I that is what has convinced my to at least TRY the Fire/Ice in the main over 4th Mangara, however little I like to skip on consistency. At least I will find out in game how often it gets searched up over Jitte, and then I'll report back!

Question for you tom... With your version of D&T what is your MU against U/W miracles? How much success did you find with gut shot and ethersworn canonist together against elves? Last question... What did you face in your rounds and what did you have difficulty with in the MU's you lost.

I think the matchup against Miracles is fine, but nothing spectacular (like most matchups!). We have a lot of different game plans that they have to deal with, and a lot of great answers for their trumps. Karakas can save a swarm strategy from a timely Terminus, Mangara offers about the same lategame quality as Jace (although we have to start hitting lands to prevent Entreat). Vial beats counterbalance, and we have a good shot of locking out white mana with both waste and port (unless they get all their basic plains, but then Counterbalance is usually out of the question). It is definitely a grindy matchup, but our deck is not opposed to that. Only played against it once, though, and it went according to plan, but would have to play more against it to get a feel.

Gut Shot, I feel, really shifts the matchup in our favor. We have so many ways of disrupting them (Swords and Gut Shots are like duresses in this matchup), and all this while the clock ticks down for either SFM--> Jitte or Mangara lock. I would love to face Elves all day (+ the matchup is really interesting too!)

My matchups at the Grand Prix (after 2 byes)

R3: UW Delver with SFM – Snag was a problem since Batterskull didn’t trump so easily. I had a superior lategame though (and Manriki-Gusari from the SB), so as long as I got to that, we could eventually get there. Unfortunately, I realized too late that game 1 was slipping from my fingers somehow, so I should have concede earlier. We ended up in 3 games, and I had full control with equipment and board against his 0 cards in hand. Unfortunately that was on turn 1 of extra turns, and since I couldn’t get him to concede, I conceded to avoid going in the draw-bracket. It was kind of a snap decision, since I hadn’t really thought about how this deck fairs against ‘decks-that-end-up-in-the-draw-bracket’, whatever those kinds of decks are. Lost.

R4: A match against Goblins. A pretty even matchup, since we both have the ability to do ‘semi-broken’ things if left unchecked. Batterskull took one game and Ringleaders took another. I managed to get him with Ports and a revoker on Vial, and mysteriously he played a Sulfuric Vortex when I had just tutored up a Jitte. Won.
R5: UR Delver. Felt in control the whole time. Batterskull made short work of his deck in game 1. Game 2 I had full control but he miracled a Thunderous Wrath twice, and burned me for the last 10. Game 3 Revoker dealt with Lavamancer and then we just threw down a bunch of fliers. Won

R6: Esperblade. Beat him in 2. Mana denial worked, Manriki-Gusari worked and not much more to it. Won.

R7: Elves. He comboed me out with relative ease game 1. Game 2 Jitte ate all his creatures and game 3 he had a Natural Order for Progenitus too early for me to do anything about it. I really like the Elves Matchup, actually, since we have so many different ways to attack it, but if they pack Natural Order, it definitely turns from favorable to unfavorable in my opinion. Lost.

R8: Elves. He didn’t have Natural Order, and I beat him in 3 games (lost the first). Jitte shone once again, as did Mother+Canonist, for which he had no outs, except play 1/1’s every turn… Won.

R9: Painter Servant: He got a Blood Moon out really early, and my lands were weak to that, but I had Vial. He got down 2 Painter Servant’s, so I was in trouble. I managed to Vial a Mother in before he destroyed it with Pyroblast. I drew another (making my whole hand live again, since all I had were Karakas, Eiganjo Castle (what are the chances!) and waste/port with a hand filled with Serras and Flickers (at one point all 4 of them!). Unfortunately he had a Goblin Welder, so he could keep my vials down by exchanging them in the graveyard, keeping them off counters. I had 2 revokers (go colorless mana!) set to Grindstone, but I refused to block and give PRO:BLUE when he attacked with the Painter’s Servant, fearful of a Pyroblast in response (I was unsure whether he knew that his painters were no longer colorless), so I had to go all the way down to 1 life before I found my second Plains, to unlock Flickerwisp, which removed Blood Moon to unluck more creatures and eventually take over the game. Game 2 was standard and I protected a revoker, had StP backup and Mangara finished it up. Won

Day 1: 7-2

R10: Affinity: He ran out of gas pretty quickly both games (he boarded in Thoughtseize, wtf?), and my bigger guys took over alongside equipment. Revoker was key, but bad draws on his part too. I still like the matchup though. Won.

R11: RUG Delver. Outresourced both games, not very close. Won.

R12: Some Bant Variant with Knight of the Reliquary and Jace. The first game was really interesting. I took an early lead, but he managed to pseudo stabilize with a Jace, which I had to attack with Thalia with help of Flickerwisp, as his board was pretty non-existent. It stayed on one counter though, digging him out of hist troubles, while I sat with a Thalia staring at his Knight and 2 more Thalias in hand! I drew a Wasteland for my turn (he had 8 lands at that point), and thought about just conceding. But I said to myself that this was a GP and stick to it, even if it’s miserable (he was only at 5 life, so there was a shred of hope). 4 turns later I had drawn 3 Flickerwisps (the PERFECT card) and a Serra Avenger, and managed to get his Jace, race his knight with a trick Aether Vial and beat for exactly lethal while going to 1 myself (he had at that point 2 knights out). Very close game, but glad I didn’t concede! Game 2 he was a bit stuck on lands thanks to Thalia, Waste and Port, but he had gotten out 2 Revokers (which, in some way, are both good and bad against our deck, since it has so many targets, but so many other targets to move around them (and Flickerwisp helps too!). I had Jitte with Serra Avenger and SFM, but he made Explosives for 2, taking out everything. At this point, he had spent too many resources, and my second wave did him in. Won.

R13: Merfolk. Beat him with Mangara lock in game one (think I managed to remove 8 lords before he conceded, his draw was insane!). Game 2 I had an opener with both batterskull and SFM, so my SFM on turn 2 could of course only get Jitte. I spent a great deal of time hem-ing and haw-ing, pulling out Jitte and a random Flickerwisp, before finally settling on Jitte. The turn after he attacked with his 3/2 Silvergil Adept, and I got to make a cool play by surprising him with Batterskull (not its usual order of business!). Won.

R14: RUG Delver. Game 1 and 2 we split (I hate the turn 2 blindflip, seems like the only way to win against the deck). Game 3 was super super tight, as we had a staredown with no cards in hand, Flickerwisp vs. Nimle Mongoos (thresholded). 13 life to 14 life. I drew a Fiend Hunter, and did some math, figuring I could get 2 swings in with it, which along with Flickerwisp would put me on 1 life the turn I would kill him, of course hoping nothing else happened (4 drawsteps each). He drew 2 Tarmogoyf, but I drew 2 creatures as well, and so we did him in with 1 life to spare, chumping along the way! Won

R15: Elves, featured on the coverage website. He comboed easily game 1. Game 2 I kept a one-lander with 2 Vials and disruption, and we didn’t see any lands for a long time both of us. As you can imagine, that favoured the guy with 2 Aether Vials, even though I managed to get all uncastables in my hand (StP, both equipments, Mother of Runes number 2). I had a great turn where he played Glimpse of Nature and I got to respond with Vial for Canonist. G3 I mulled to 5 and lost the turn before I could get Jitte online.

R16: Rug Delver. Thalia did great work both games, and it wasn’t close. Won
Final record 13-3.

timmycolossus

08-10-2012, 06:41 PM

Thank you for the report and opinion. Because of your top we now have some things to consider when constructing the deck and sb options with the deck as well. I will testing 4 canonist and 2 gut shot against elves, then 3x gut shot then 4x gut shot. What did you side out against elves and side in btw?

timmycolossus

08-10-2012, 06:44 PM

One more thing. Did you have any trouble with sulfur elemental or dread of night? Finn was thinking of putting honor the pure into the board to combat those cards (massacre, zealous persecution etc)

Curby

08-11-2012, 07:55 PM

So if I'm adding Batterskull in place of a Sword, he then becomes my fattie. Taking out Grunt is then a more palatable option as we still have a beater and are only missing out on g1 yardhate. Taking out Grunt allows me to add the fourth Mystic, which I'd like to do anyway since casting Batterskull without Mystic is almost impossible.

Let's say I'm going down this path: is relying on Tutorable yardhate enough? To wit, 3 pieces of yardhate (out of Crypt/Relic/Wheel/Cage) along with four Tutors, instead of the previous 4 Tutor, 3 Grunt, 2 Tutor target package. I know it's worse, but as a side effect of taking that hit to yardhate, we gain two very important slots back.

I'm torn on which sword (SoLaS/SoFaI) to take out for Batterskull though. So far it's SoLaS moving out.

To summarize, I'm looking at:

23 Land
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of something and something else

4 of each creature except 3 Mangara, 3 Revoker, 0 Grunt

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic/Cage
2 Oust/Gut Shot
2 Free Slots

Question marks are bolded. For the free slots, I'm considering Honor of the Pure, Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Ring, Ensnaring Bridge. I could put the Grunts back in, but I hate to see 4 Tutors with so few targets.

Barbed Blightning

08-12-2012, 02:54 AM

To summarize, I'm looking at:

23 Land
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of something and something else

4 of each creature except 3 Mangara, 3 Revoker, 0 Grunt

Sideboard
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Relic/Cage
2 Oust/Gut Shot
2 Free Slots

Question marks are bolded. For the free slots, I'm considering Honor of the Pure, Engineered Explosives, Oblivion Ring, Ensnaring Bridge. I could put the Grunts back in, but I hate to see 4 Tutors with so few targets.

SoFI would be my choice if I had to run Bskull. colorless removal + pro jace is very relevant, and the draw is merely a nice touch. Probably our best method of speeding up our game.

I'd cut either a cage or a canonist from your side for 3 grunts (including your flex spots). You want grunt. He has a huge ass to deal with burn, and gobbles up Tarmogoyfs. I won against RUG today because of Grunt alone.

So long as decks play goyf, I'll play Grunt somewhere in my 75. He's too good to simply toss away.

Oust and Shot are preference. I've had games when having the opposite one would have been better, but Shot is more or less "free." Maybe some good removal will come out in RTR?

Also, honestly, why is ethersworn up to a 3-of in our SB? Just for the Elves and Storm matches? Neither seems popular enough to be that huge a concern.

from Cairo

08-12-2012, 02:01 PM

SoFI would be my choice if I had to run Bskull. colorless removal + pro jace is very relevant, and the draw is merely a nice touch. Probably our best method of speeding up our game.

I like Sword of Fire and Ice as a support sword to Batterskull too, given all the fliers hitting triggers with SoFaI is preferable to other swords.

I'd cut either a cage or a canonist from your side for 3 grunts (including your flex spots). You want grunt. He has a huge ass to deal with burn, and gobbles up Tarmogoyfs. I won against RUG today because of Grunt alone.

So long as decks play goyf, I'll play Grunt somewhere in my 75. He's too good to simply toss away.

Jotun is nice since it can function as GY hate and just as a way to draw a 2-for-1 against decks that can't handle 4 Toughness guys. I like Tormod's Crypt as actual GY removal against Dredge and think Karakas, O Ring, etc. can supplement as answers to Reanimator.

Oust and Shot are preference. I've had games when having the opposite one would have been better, but Shot is more or less "free." Maybe some good removal will come out in RTR?

I like Gut Shot for opposing Mother of Runes decks, and Elves, since it allows us to remain proactive, developing our board. Oust is more powerful removal, but something like Oblivion Ring or Fiend Hunter seems like it can answer larger guys without tying up more SB slots.

Also, honestly, why is ethersworn up to a 3-of in our SB? Just for the Elves and Storm matches? Neither seems popular enough to be that huge a concern.

I like Canonist because it can't be played around by Storm and leaves Elves functioning as bad Tribal, buying us enough time to get active Jitte. Elves is pretty popular in the SCG circuit and w/o a way to disrupt Glimpse it's tough to choke their combo.

Honoluluicecaps

08-14-2012, 02:58 PM

Just to throw it out there, I'm running Burrenton Forge-Tender as a 3-of in my board (Primarily for the Dredge matchup, but also helps against the Goblins and rando-Burn matchups) and I really like it... much more than Crypt. For reference, this is my preferred SB currently:

3x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Faerie Macabre
3x Gut Shot
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Sword of Fire and Ice (running Batterskull main)
1x Manriki Gusari
2x Relic of Progenitus

Curby

08-14-2012, 03:49 PM

Alright, changing my mind again. I was looking at the recent "Too Much Information" on SCG and there are a ton of decks that are yard-dependent at SCG Opens. Since that's the meta I'm targeting, 3 Grunts stay in the maindeck. Here are the 30 creatures we'd want in our ideal deck:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt

Generally there's only room for 26 of them in the main. I'm thinking of cutting an Avenger and a Mystic entirely, and moving a Thalia and a Revoker to the side. So many 3s rather than 4s will be less consistent, but I'm betting on the overall utility of Grunt given the expected metagame.

@icecaps: How has Batterskull been treating you? Have you tried SoFaI in the main instead of SoLaS?

scottjmorrow

08-15-2012, 04:29 PM

My $0.02, if anyone's interested:

I play a non-D&T white-weenie deck, and I run four pieces of equipment: Batterskull, Jitte, SoBM, and SoWP. But I also play three copies of Restoration Angel, which helps to reset Stoneforge (and Jötun Grunt when I play him).

timmycolossus

08-17-2012, 09:18 AM

So guys quick question. I am deciding on my board was thinking of adding a mortapod or a jitte for the elves match. I already have a jitte in the main. Which do you guys think I should add?

from Cairo

08-17-2012, 12:32 PM

So guys quick question. I am deciding on my board was thinking of adding a mortapod or a jitte for the elves match. I already have a jitte in the main. Which do you guys think I should add?

I'd go with a 2nd Jitte. It has broader application where it can come in against Maverick and Stoneblade decks due to Legend ruling initial copies off the board. An on board Jitte is going to be higher impact than Mortarpod as well. Mortarpod isn't going to get a ton of value as the deck doesn't tend to have a huge surplus of creatures it wants to be saccing. It does have pretty strong application against Dredge, though Jitte does as well.

Wynk

08-22-2012, 02:50 PM

Question: So have we come to a decision on the Batterskull inclusion or not?

I love Sword of Light and Shadow for the flexibility it has but Batterskull delays gobins/merfolk all day, and those matchups aren't auto win like they used to be.

Perhaps move Serra Avenger down to 3 slots and toss in a Batterskull as an additional beater? However, that would lead to 4 equips in my deck (jitte, skull, SOFI and SOLS).

Thoughts?

Edit: By the way Finn, loved the new article. Mangara tricks and timing aside, it was a solid piece which established D and T's role as a control deck quite firmly.
Btw, do you really need 3 canonists vs. elves? While a horrible matchup game 1, an active jitte and/or enlightened tutor into Ethersworn Canonist in the 5 games I played vs. elves this weekend enabled me to win all my sideboarded games.

Barbed Blightning

08-22-2012, 04:08 PM

I want to test this. I don't know how it'll work out but it sounds interesting

from Cairo

08-22-2012, 05:38 PM

@ Ethersworn Canonist: w/o ETutor I feel 3 is necessary, with some number of Gut Shots to supplement. If running an ETutor package, 2 is probably passable, and running Ousts over Gut Shots seems more defensible. The deck really needs to jam Canonist turn 2 to keep Elves off of craziness until one can get Jitte active turn 4.

@ Batterskull: I've been liking it's inclusion. Running 1 Jitte, 1 BSkull, 1 SoF&I. Having 5 Vigilance guys has been huge against Tribal and Batterskull is a great piece of equipment to have against UWx variants. I haven't missed SoL&S.

Overall the deck has been feeling very well positioned. RIshadan Port has been a house against the control/combo archetypes, especially paired with Thalia. The SB has provided the ability to shift bombs leaving the deck feeling like it's always top decking live.

Wynk

08-22-2012, 06:19 PM

I want to test this. I don't know how it'll work out but it sounds interesting

Batterskull is typically the second equip we get. Otherwise the Mystic will be shot out of the sky with all the early removal. Think of Batterskull as a tutorable Serra Avenger.

_erbs_

08-22-2012, 10:22 PM

@Batterskull
Its really a nice addition but i don't know how you guys can actually fit a 4th stoneforge and 1 more equip in the main deck as i feel the main deck right now is too tight to remove anything.

Right now im running this build and i don't know , how you guys where able to use the above cards mentioned.

How is bskull testing for you guys ?

My build for reference.
Lands [23]
3 Karaks
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor

Spells [11]
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SD [15]
3 Pithing Needle
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Honor of the Pure
2 Path to Exile

Curby

08-23-2012, 03:14 AM

_erbs_

08-23-2012, 04:03 AM

I'm going into Denver with your list,

+1 Karakas
-1 Plains (I assume you're using 12)
-1 Thalia
+1 Stoneforge
+1 Grunt
-1 Avenger
+1 Mangara
-1 Jitte
+1 Batterskull

Yup, I'm not running 60. :eek:

It's easier to fit Batterskull if you're boarding out the Grunts (seems to be a popular move these days).

Goodluck! i see..., i feel mangara is kinda slow in a rug or merfs infested meta. Running 3 Jotun main isn't bad aswell.

What's your reason for not running 4 thalia ?

Curby

08-23-2012, 04:13 AM

_erbs_

08-23-2012, 04:20 AM

She's Legendary, and there's no room in the main. 4th copy is in the side, along with 4th Revoker. Besides Mangara and Grunt, we'd love to have four of everything in the main. Tough cuts must be made, and I want to keep maindeck Grunts for now. (Compared to having 3 Grunts in the side, I save a sideboard slot this way if comparing slots taken by creatures.)

I guess its a matter of preference.., but i feel most of the time thalia will be killed immediately once she lands. Thus i feel shes should be a 4 off. Since your running bskull its natural that you run 4 stoneforge.

Don't you find running 3 mangara against rug meta somewhat slow ?

Finn

08-23-2012, 10:24 AM

I think that in the main deck, you must have either Grunts or tutorable Batterskull. Our guys are very susceptible to anti-Thalia splash damage, and I feel that this policy hedges your bet on seeing stuff like Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental. Considering Batterskull is one card vs. Grunts which are three, my current inclusion is largely one of arithmetic.

Curby

08-23-2012, 11:13 AM

Mangara does seem slow, and I'd probably board her out against some decks. That said, running 2x of anything in this deck just seems too inconsistent. IMO 3+ or 0 for anything that can't be searched for.

I'm wondering though; when do you side out Mangara? I'm thinking combo (incl Elves) and Dredge where you'd want more specific hate instead. Not sure about Reanimator.

Considering Batterskull is one card vs. Grunts which are three, my current inclusion is largely one of arithmetic.

This is one of my main arguments for Batterskull in decks that are boarding out Grunts. You still want some critter that's naturally 4+, and you want that capability with a minimal expenditure of deck slots.

_erbs_

08-23-2012, 10:12 PM

@kirbysdl
Its true that anything less than 3 in this deck is almost impossible to search in a game, but I feel i can't cut anything more in the main deck. Im considering wisp to be 3 so i could fit in the 3rd mangara.

I don't bored out mangara against reanimator what i bored out are the equips stoneforge and mother of runes. Sometimes when your opponent is forced to play show and tell landing a mangara is game breaking or if your opponent was able to cast an iona, and your only out is vial, vial in mangara and grab the win.

Right now the 2 gunts in the main feel enough though i would like to push it to 3 but sometimes having too much grunts in your hand sucks. So right now im keeping it 2 main and 1 sb.

@Honor of the Pure
I've tested that route and surprisingly its a good strategy if you could execute it. Right now im running 3 honor and 2 tutors. In what MU do i use them well, before it was used mainly against rug, but now im able to use it against mav. Which sometimes becomes a matter of who gets a mother of runes online will most likely win the game especially when jitte hits the board.

Mav and DT have the same utility cards (mom, sfm & wasteland), thats why i decided to try a different approach against them.

Before what i do is just board in 1 more grunts and 2 pte / oust against them, but as playtesting shows when a mom gets online and a sfm comes its all downhill if you don't have a revoker or someway of dealing with the equips and mom.

With honor approach i go aggro mode against them. What i do now is bored in 2 tutor 3 honor 2 pte 1 grunt 2 pithing needles and board out the ff: 1 sfm, 2 mangara, 1 sofi & 4 thalia.

Landing 1-2 honor and with DTs evasive creatures your clock becomes fast before mav can out muscle you with kotr or terravore.

The honor strat is nice against gobs aswell as he is most likely going to board in artifact hate same goes with other decks.

Quantum

08-28-2012, 03:37 PM

Monday legacy at Card Kingom; meta has some pretty good players.

4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
10x Plains

4x Mom
4x Stoneforge
4x Serra Avenger
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Thalia
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara
4x Swords
4x Vial
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

SIDEBOARD
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Stony Silence
1x Path to Exile
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x COP: Red

Round 1: Shawn with RUG Delve - Shawn top 8'ed the SCG Open in June
Game 1: He gets a little land screwed, and Thalia screwed. Gets to the point where he stifles my Vial ticking up. After he finally gets rid of Thalia, he's tapped out, I bring in Mangara get rid of his one colored source (Trop), Waste his Waste, drop a Grunt (making his 'Goose useless). We're both on no lands, but I have a Flickerwisp and a Grunt in play to a shrinking Goose.

Sideboard: Still new to the deck, and haven't actually played RUG Delver.
+1 Path, +1 Thorn, +1 Ensnaring Bridge, +2 Enlightened Tutor

Game 2: Slow start, but get to taxing pretty quickly after a mull to 5. A very, very close game, but he's unable to flip Delvers to block Serra Avenger. After Swordsing 2 Goyfs and Pathing an unflipped Delver, Serra Avenger eventually gets her man.
1-0, 2-0

Round 2: Adam with UW Top Stoneblade
Game 1: I have a slow start, dropping Phyrexian Revoker on turn 2, naming Jace (thought he was on Esperblade, as he was last time I played him), only to see Top drop next turn. Not much to say, other than every time I built pressure, he either miracle'd Terminus, or hit my dude with Swords. Made my most egregious misplay of the night when I forgot to pay upkeep with a Grunt, but even then, it would've been swept that turn anyways. Thought about Flicker-ing Revoker to name Top, but who knows. Eventually scooped to save time when he had Batterskull and Jace active, despite me having a few outs.

Sideboard: +1 Revoker, +1 Needle, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Metamorph, +2 E. Tutors
-4 Swords (he only ran 2 V. Cliques last time, I think he had 4 Snapcasters this time as well, w/no Jitte), -1 Stoneforge, -1 Serra Avenger

Game 2: Close one, but more of the same, except this time I got wrecked by EE. There were 3 to 4 turns where I could have swung the tide, but he was able to top for Terminus. Made minor punt where I played a revoker with a SOLAS in play, where he had Jace+Batterskull with Jitte equipped, named Jace instead of Jitte; might have allowed for an extra couple of turns where I could have forced Jace to bounce instead of fate-seal, but whatever.

Great games, but not seeing early Thalia, Mom or Vial really hurt.
1-1, 2-2

Billy with Esper Stoneblade
Billy is probably even newer to the format than I am, and had just purchased Scrublands/Seas that hadn't arrived, so he was on shocks for half his land-base.

Game 1: Tug-of-war... he had a hand disruption heavy start, of the Thoughtseize variety. Combined with his Shocks and he hurt himself pretty badly at the start of the game. Eventually I was able to get to parity, except for the Jace in play. I had a Vial on three and a SOFI, but he was fatesealing me every turn. Couldn't get to Flickerwisp, he Jace-ultimate'd me.

Sideboard: +1 Revoker, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Metamorph, +1 E. Tutor
-3 Swords, -1 Serra Avenger

Game 2: Great game. I was on a mull to 6, with one land/Vial/Mom/bunch of two drops, but he kept a mono-removal hand, and thankfully, after drawing a second land, he Pathed a couple dudes, so land was never an issue, and actually was HUGE later on. He got Jace down, but I O-Ringed it; he dropped Batterskull but then I Flickered the token, and was able to Waste enough of his landbase, and triple port him to prevent him from casting either another Jace or recasting the Batterskull. Eventually he started on the triple Snapcaster beatdown, but I was able to get Thalia and SOFI down. He wasted a ton of removal trying to get rid of Thalia, but with Vial on 2/3 and Karakas, I was able to pull all sorts of tricky shenanigans; favorite play was after having to bounce Thalia using Karakas, casting Flickerwisp (just prior to Vial on 3) resetting Karakas, and then casting SOLAS. Eventually got there, but time ran out.
1-1-1, 3-3

Round 4: ??? with Dredge
Game 1: Knew he was on Dredge, kept a very quick hand including Grunt. He was able to Breakthrough Grunt lock pretty effectively after a couple of turns, but eventually I got Jitte counters, killed a Revoker removing all 4 Bridges in response to EOT Ichorid trigger. Never expected that...

Sideboard: -3 Mangara, -4 Swords
+4 E. Tutors, +1 Wheel of Sun/Moon, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Revoker

Game 2: I mulliganed twice, he was able to get through Tormod's Crypt and Wasteland for his 1 land. :(

Game 3: He mulled to five, I kept one-lander with Wheel of Sun/Moon. Never was able to cast it, but he didn't dredge anything worth anything, so despite 2x Cabal Therapy, I won.

2-1-1, 5-4

Love the deck, love the format, will stay true, even if I have just acquired all the pieces to Goblins. ;)

Finn

08-30-2012, 04:23 PM

Quantum, I can't go into detail here because this is just a quick post. But briefly, don't side in any tutors against RUG, Miracles, Stoneblade, or any other deck that smells like control.

Thx for the report.

Barbed Blightning

09-02-2012, 11:58 PM

Spoiler from RtR:

Judge's Familiar

Creature - Bird
Flying
Sacrifice Judge's Familiar : Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays 1.
1/1

Seems like it might be good for us, but I'm not totally convinced. Thoughts?

hyggli

09-03-2012, 04:01 AM

i think we are the only deck in legacy that can succesfully run it.

We need test though. And I can't imagine what to cut

tsabo_tavoc

09-03-2012, 08:34 AM

i think we are the only deck in legacy that can succesfully run it.

We need test though. And I can't imagine what to cut

I would play 4x Birds, and cut Avenger or Grunt.

hyggli

09-03-2012, 10:15 AM

Guys I'm heading to a pretty big tournament this sunday.

I'm searching for something to side vs Miracle. If I cannot find something, I think I'll try with some ghostway or such ahah.

The meta I'm expecting would likely be something like miracles(mostly without sfm), canadian, esperblade, snt/lands/dredge. I'd like to set up for it and the list I thought about is something like this

11 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

3 Mangara of corondor
4 Serra avenger
4 Mother of runes
4 Stoneforge mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, guardian of thraben
4 Flickerwisp

4 Aether vial
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Umezawa's jitte
1 Sword of light and shadow
1 Batterskull

sb:
2 Jotun grunt(canadian,dredge,lands)
1 Sword of fire and ice(canadian mostly,goblins)
1 Umezawa's Jitte(random goblins,maverick,merfolk,mirror,uw sfm)
1 Sword of light and shadow(esper,miracle)
2 Wheel of sun and moon(lands,dredge,random reanimator)
2 Relic of progenitus(lands,dredge,random reanimator,maverick)
2 Gut shot(maverick,goblins,lingering)
4 Path to exile(canadian,random nic fit)

any advice?

there will be no storm nor random combos, so I'm cutting canonist, although it's ok vs canadian or snapcaster.

Quantum

09-03-2012, 03:25 PM

Barbed Blightning

09-03-2012, 10:17 PM

My friend and I came up with a theoretical D&T list, employing the new Familiar in the Side:

Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
10 Plains

Sideboard
1 Batterskull
3 Jötun Grunt
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Judge's Familiar
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Oblivion Ring

We justify the 10-plains manabase because our curve is essentially two. When we commit to 3 mana in this deck, we're going for the lock-win (Mangara, Flickerwisp) or we're suiting up a beater for the win (SoFI, SoLaS)

Here's the theory for the SB:

Batterskull shores up (that is, automatically wins) our Tribal matchups, and helps Burn/UR with the lifelink and fast clock.

Grunt is obviously our best Tempo Thresh hate. Plus, he has a big butt to take a lot of burn. With this side, we'll never worry about leaving home without him. He also becomes much better with the time that the cage buys us.

Canonist as a 3-of means that she can be draw reliably enough, esp. with our 4 MD Thalia, and if Storm decks rise in popularity she can even become a four of.

Familiar is definitely not a mainboard card, not while creature decks are popular. However, I've been convinced that the Bird is spectacular tech. Brought in for out Combo or Control matches, he adds an amazing amount of Tax--and can supplement our Flying crew even more. 4 feels right, esp. since we'll most likely be switching STP's out in our Storm matchup, and we'll definitely want him first turn in that matchup.

Which leaves Cage and O-Ring. My intent for either is that their numbers can be adjusted depending on your meta. More Dredge and Reanimator obviously warrants more Cages, more Show&Tell decks means Ring is better.

I would also make an argument for Surgical Extraction--maverick runs it, and the added effect of it being able to grab nonbasic lands means that it can also be its own kind of Tax--on top of allowing for us to take a peek at our opponent's hand. It's only problem is Thalia interference, and that it can be spell pierce'd.

With the addition of Familiar, I think it's time we consider dropping the E Tutor board. The Bird catches much on his own, and with this proposed SB we still get to keep all the tools we have determined to be essential. We will lose the autowin cards, like Wheel of Sun & Moon or CoP: Red. We gain a significant amount of power, however, while maintaining a consistent deck armed to the teeth for each round of our matches.

colo

09-04-2012, 02:46 AM

I would also make an argument for Surgical Extraction--maverick runs it, and the added effect of it being able to grab nonbasic lands means that it can also be its own kind of Tax--on top of allowing for us to take a peek at our opponent's hand. It's only problem is Thalia interference, and that it can be spell pierce'd.

Everyone siding in Spell Pierce against D&T is very welcome to sit down against me on the other side of the table, really. ;)

Barbed Blightning

09-05-2012, 02:24 AM

Everyone siding in Spell Pierce against D&T is very welcome to sit down against me on the other side of the table, really. ;)

You'd be surprised by the number of Tempo Thresh opponents I've faced who keep it in in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. I'm always flabbergasted by it.

Justin

09-05-2012, 09:56 AM

When on the play for g2/3, keeping Spell Pierce in the deck is probably the right call against D&T because it counters an early Aether Vial. When on the draw, however, it should definitely be boarded out.

lochlan

09-10-2012, 12:22 AM

from Cairo just won SCG Portland with Death and Taxes! Go go Portland magic! Check out the list here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=49260

Barbed Blightning

09-10-2012, 12:28 AM

And stomped the hell out of miracleblade. Damn that felt good to watch!

Congratulations to Cairo!

berksowl

09-10-2012, 12:51 AM

As far as I know there were two of us, of 130ish players, playing D&T. It's awesome that Ben won it. He definitely knew what he was doing, and he seems like a cool bloke. I'm less experienced with the deck, but it treated me well, and I finished 20th, though partly due to a charitable final round concession.

My deck differed from Ben's in that I played two main Jotun Grunts, and he did not. And he had Gut Shot and Leonin Bola in his side. I'm real curious to hear how those cards performed.

Anyway, with what's coming from RtR, I feel exited. But then maybe with a SCG win maybe we'll stay seeing some hate.

from Cairo

09-10-2012, 06:37 AM

My deck differed from Ben's in that I played two main Jotun Grunts, and he did not. And he had Gut Shot and Leonin Bola in his side. I'm real curious to hear how those cards performed.

Thanks for the props Lochlan, Barbed Blightning and Berksowl.

The Gut Shots did a bit of work for me against Elves and Maverick, which were the matches they were intended for. Offing Llanowar/Wirewood and Mother. They also struck me as a solid out to Grims which didn't end up being relevant, dodging Team Italia and beating the RUG deck playing them in games 1 and 2, they'd have probably come in game 3 had it gone to that.

The Leonin Bola was borrowed tech, from Mr. Thomas Enevoldsen, as a viable target against Show and Tell, for SFMs. The deck doesn't have space in the SB to pull the SFMs for relevant hate, but I figured with 1 Bola I'd have an option for shutting down Emarkul or Griselbrand. I managed to dodge Show and Tell all tournament so it wasn't boarded in.

I didn't take notes, but as far as matches go, I played versus:
Esper 2-1
Lands 2-1
RUG 2-0
Elves 2-1
Maverick 1-1-1
Miracles 2-1
Goblins ID
Merfolk 2-1
RUG 2-1
Miracles 2-0

I felt like this deck had great game against fair decks going into the event and that played out as expected. Thalia with Karakas as Rescue protection was MVP of the event although really the MD felt like it all pulled it's weight all day. The Sword of Fire and Ice wasn't tutored much at all, but came online drawn naturally a couple games. It may be unnecessary, but I dreaded 4 SFMs with only 2 equips and not getting value via fail to find. The Bola and Manriki-Gusari maybe could have been more powerful cards, but while lesser in power being tutorable options was their major appeal.

Going into RTR I'm interested in testing Judge's Familiar, at least out of the SB, and who knows what else is in store.

Claymore

09-10-2012, 08:43 AM

is there an SCG write up for this tournament? I can't find anything but decklists and top 8 profiles

Barbed Blightning

09-10-2012, 10:34 AM

@Cairo: How was Fiend Hunter? In which matches did you bring him in?

L10

09-10-2012, 12:00 PM

Hey Ben,
How was Horizon Canopy for you? It seemed to helped in the finals and semifinals as cantrips, as you never used them for mana iirc, but how were they overall? Did the life-loss mattered in the other match-ups?
What do you think of Batterskull? What match-ups did you search him out for?

Congrats! It was the most exciting SCG semifinals and finals I had watched in a while!

Anarky87

09-10-2012, 12:26 PM

@Cairo: How was Fiend Hunter? In which matches did you bring him in? Maybe as a third O-Ring that can be Vialed in against Emrakul/Griselbrand? Seems like it could be alright.

PS: I've been wanting to get this deck together for awhile...if I could just win my Karakas auctions. Have all 57 cards sitting in my cabinet waiting on 3 more Karakas.

from Cairo

09-10-2012, 03:21 PM

@Cairo: How was Fiend Hunter? In which matches did you bring him in?

I didn't get the opportunity to play him in the event, but he proved solid in testing. I boarded him in against Maverick, RUG, and Merfolk. He's a great 1-2 of because he's synergistic with Vial and Flickerwisp and can be applied to a lot of matches. He can come in versus Show and Tell and is good against MUD decks as well.

How was Horizon Canopy for you? It seemed to helped in the finals and semifinals as cantrips, as you never used them for mana iirc, but how were they overall? Did the life-loss mattered in the other match-ups?
What do you think of Batterskull? What match-ups did you search him out for?

Congrats!

Thank you.

I've been a big fan of Horizon Canopy. The lifeloss is pretty marginal. I took a few points in a handful of games yesterday, but comparably my opponents were taking more off their fetches. The ability to cantrip midgame off what otherwise would be a dead land draw was valuable on several occasions. I've tested configurations with 1-3 Canopy and found 2 to be the best compromise in terms of having a reasonable Plains count, not drawing double Canopy, but also eking out as much free value as possible. The deck has so many non-basics that Canopy rarely is the best target for Wasteland and one can usually play out Plains first anyway to have the double White available the turn it's needed.

Batterskull was phenomenal all day. With 4 Mother of Runes and 4 Vial (EOT pseudo-haste), Death and Taxes protects Stoneforge Mystic as well or better than any deck in the format. And when SFM sticks on the table Batterskull usually blows the game open. It was my go to against control matches, and depending on the hand/board state it can be the stronger pull against Merfolk or RUG - I gambled game 1 against Merfolk fetching Jitte and Nic's swarm of Lords was way to unmanageable for it, Batterskull would have been the better pull there.

berksowl

09-10-2012, 07:29 PM

I didn't get the opportunity to play him in the event, but he proved solid in testing. I boarded him in against Maverick, RUG, and Merfolk. He's a great 1-2 of because he's synergistic with Vial and Flickerwisp and can be applied to a lot of matches. He can come in versus Show and Tell and is good against MUD decks as well.

Thank you.

I've been a big fan of Horizon Canopy. The lifeloss is pretty marginal. I took a few points in a handful of games yesterday, but comparably my opponents were taking more off their fetches. The ability to cantrip midgame off what otherwise would be a dead land draw was valuable on several occasions. I've tested configurations with 1-3 Canopy and found 2 to be the best compromise in terms of having a reasonable Plains count, not drawing double Canopy, but also eking out as much free value as possible. The deck has so many non-basics that Canopy rarely is the best target for Wasteland and one can usually play out Plains first anyway to have the double White available the turn it's needed.

Batterskull was phenomenal all day. With 4 Mother of Runes and 4 Vial (EOT pseudo-haste), Death and Taxes protects Stoneforge Mystic as well or better than any deck in the format. And when SFM sticks on the table Batterskull usually blows the game open. It was my go to against control matches, and depending on the hand/board state it can be the stronger pull against Merfolk or RUG - I gambled game 1 against Merfolk fetching Jitte and Nic's swarm of Lords was way to unmanageable for it, Batterskull would have been the better pull there.

I also noticed your extra Jitte in the sideboard. Seems smart, since I played two matches against Stoneblade yesterday and more than once had a Jitte blown up by another Jitte.

I actually had a hard time with Stoneblade yesterday: losing 0-2 to UW Stoneblade and going to time and drawing with Esper Stoneblade. Each of them seemed to have answers for everything I did, and a resolved Jitte puts Death and Taxes in a pretty bad place.

How did your Stoneblade match-ups go?

Finn

09-10-2012, 09:06 PM

I found my way to the archive coverage tonight thanks to someone kindly posting the link. That was fun to watch.

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/331618557

Ya gotta love Cedric, Glenn, and Patrick all giving Miracles the nod and barely even considering that Ben had any game against it. That attitude is literally all you get from the big whigs. How many games have we all won against opponents who can not believe it just happened?

I have found Miracles a hard matchup. Maybe I need lessons from Cairo. I did not see much of anything to complain about watching you play. Job well done.

Also, Horizon Canopy is kinda cool. It may just be time to give it a closer look.

Barbed Blightning

09-10-2012, 11:32 PM

I started to test Batterskull and Canopy today. Both excelled from what I found.

I still want to run SoLaS in my side since it auto-win the maverick matchup, but damn didn't Batterskull turn three feel good. Especially with Mom backup. Feel kinda blockheaded for not adding it earlier.

Horizon Canopy was just as clutch. It gave me just the right amount gas in the mid/late game to draw more power. In this deck, I feel like late topdecks are almost always bombs, and having a way to get the last pound of pressure in was very nice. 2 feels right, as 1 and 3 feel like they could get detrimental. Batterskull also makes the loss negligible.

Wynk

09-11-2012, 11:36 AM

Esper3k

09-11-2012, 11:50 AM

Koby

09-11-2012, 11:53 AM

To be fair, Cedric Phillips doesn't think any deck other than Belcher or Kithkin is playable :rolleyes:

He does think decks like Maverick/D&T/decks with dorks are doing well because they are strong. His opinion is that why would you play such decks when you could instead play Combo and wreck everyone instead? He is lamenting the fact that with access to some of the most broken cards to Legacy, people are still playing Mother of Runes.

Barbed Blightning

09-11-2012, 12:16 PM

Congratulations to From Cairo! Very proud to see D and T finish #1. Coming back from mulls to five multiple times shows this deck's consistency.

1. Batterskull: Its needed maindeck. Recently played in a tournament and I boarded Batterskull in nearly every match. Viligence and lifelink help so much vs. aggro decks. I'm placing the Sword of Light and Shadow in the board for relevant matchups.

2. I noticed the lack of E - tutor in From Cairo's list. Is this recommended?

Agree with 1 totally. Solas is excellent againt deadguy and mav, but skull kills Canadian and Gobs outright.

2 is debated. Personally I'm finding tutors weaker with thalia. I'd rather port my opponent than use it on a spell that potentially could be countered. Or use a waste and keep karakas up. Or draw off canopy. Even if we resolve our tutor, there are no guarantees our hate will stick.

I like Nash's list. I did some theorycrafting with a friend to create a creature based side once rtr hits. It might be here, and is somewhere on the salvo.

Wynk

09-11-2012, 02:57 PM

I did some theorycrafting with a friend to create a creature based side once rtr hits. It might be here, and is somewhere on the salvo.

I like the idea of a creature SB. With vial and Thalia the synergy would be amazing. However, do we then prepare to board 3 Honor of the Pure? All our utility dorks have tiny butts. A hasted goblin sharpshooter did me in during my last tournament killing Thalia and 2 flickerwisp. Zealous Persecution, Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Night make me shudder.

The more popular this deck and Maverick become, the more we'll have to redesign the board to fight hate as opposed to using the board to hate other decks.

Barbed Blightning

09-12-2012, 01:32 AM

I suppose the question, however, is why Sharpshooter wasn't revoked or exiled in response to his first activation. Goblins is an eternally easy matchup for us; the key is counter his aggression with aggressive control--Jitte-Thalia, for example.

Two of those hate cards can be stalled by Thalia and waste/port. The third is almost exclusively RUG tech, and three mana is a HUGE commitment for that deck, esp. since wasting red sources and porting green ones is often the right call. I wouldn't worry about them too much, personally.

That said, Serra Avenger doesn't give a good goddamn about any of those cards. If there's anything we can learn from Mr. Nash's top 8 matches, it's the raw power of Serra Avenger.

Wynk

09-12-2012, 03:37 AM

If there's anything we can learn from Mr. Nash's top 8 matches, it's the raw power of Serra Avenger.

Preaching to the choir :)

hyggli

09-13-2012, 01:52 PM

Giving just my 2 cents. Atm I'm testing 4x Veteran Armorer in sb. It's viable, and protects vs Sulfur elemental. It's great in multiples and denies forked bolt. Also takes serra avenger out of bolt. It's also something to keep the pressure up. All the times I'm boarding him in a lot of people with red(even gobs) gets in trouble.

Curby

09-13-2012, 01:59 PM

That's pretty neat. With all the Honor of the Pure talk, I started wondering what other options there are. I remembered Castle, but that doesn't help tapped guys, costs too much, can't hold Jitte, etc..

We shouldn't forget that Plated Sliver was always one of Countersliver's best options, or that Goyf's +1 toughness always made it harder to deal with. Veteran Armorer might not work out in the end, but I'm glad there are better options out there than Castle!

Barbed Blightning

09-16-2012, 11:41 PM

Honestly, Armorer sounds like decent tech as a 2-3 of in the side. definitely would be awesome to respond to a forked bolt by vialing him into play. :laugh:

I'd need to see more Sulfurs and Forked effects in the meta before I'd say that, however.

Quantum

09-17-2012, 08:08 PM

Thoughts on new enchantment Rest in Peace for Sideboard?

1W
When Rest in Peace enters the battlefield, exile all cards from all graveyards.
If a card or token would be put into a graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

Seems like an auto-include for E-Tutor package sideboards... ridiculous against ANT, TES, High Tide, and especially DREDGE. Shuts off Grunts, but does the job a Grunt would do against such a deck, except better.

Barbed Blightning

09-17-2012, 11:22 PM

Quantum

09-18-2012, 12:53 AM

For a Tutor/Bullet build of the side, I see RIP as essential tech. Grunts could be removed for two of these and a Relic (Canadian), though I'd keep a Crypt in as my 0-cost hate.

RIP also kills Academy Rector decks (Know&Tell, NicFit), and if it hits in time, absolutely stomps the good-jolly-fuck out of Dredge.

For the tutorless build, I advocate Dryad Militant/Jotun Grunt as yard hate, 3 of each.

Yeah, thinking about what this card does to Dredge makes me happy. I've played it each of the last three weeks at my weekly tournament against different players, and its like Tormod's Crypt and Wheel of Sun and Moon smashed into a card that's easier to cast than Wheel.

Penguinizer

09-18-2012, 06:12 PM

Quantum

09-18-2012, 06:27 PM

I agree, that card is going to be replacing Wheel of Sun and Moon in my sideboard. I've been meaning to re-tool my sideboard anyways (largely to remove some of the more pointless silver bullets to make space for Judge's Familiar) so now seems to be as good a time as any.

I've been thinking of going down to 3 Enlightened Tutors in the SB, and adding 2 PtE and some number of Judge's Familiar. Haven't had a chance to think much about it over the past few weeks, though.

Barbed Blightning

09-19-2012, 06:15 PM

Quantum

09-20-2012, 04:19 PM

I've been thinking about it recently, and I'm starting to suspect that judge's familiar isn't all that good. The more I look at him, the more I think that RIP, Oblivion Ring, or equipment might be better suited in the sideboard for the current meta. Sure, we can make Show & Tell cost :5: .... or, we just S&T an Oblivion Ring. Sure, we can counter a Daze... or we can just play around it, and keep our sideboard strong with solid hate.

Idk. Just my two cents.

I am finding that sideboarding is the hardest part for me with this deck, mainly because I just have no clue how to do it.

Presently have a dedicated E-Tutor sideboard, but the problem with it is that against decks where staying as close as possible on card parity (ie blue decks) is important, E-Tutor just blows, and you have dead cards in your MD (ie Swords against Miracles).

How do people think about this sideboard:
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Rest in Peace
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x COP Red
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Oblivion Ring
2x Pithing Needle
1x Revoker (I have 3 main)
2x Path to Exile (think RUG/Zoo/Affinity)

Curby

09-20-2012, 05:00 PM

@BB, I've been talking to a guy (I'm sure he'll ID himself here if he wants to) who also doesn't like Judge's Familiar in the deck, but he's coming at it from a card advantage perspective. The thinking is that either static pressure or 2-for-1 and 1-for-0 card trades help us pull ahead in the long game, but Familiar just sits around (in hand stunting our Vial growth or on board telegraphing our capability) hoping for a 1-for-1 trade. I still think it could use some testing, but the counterargument is compelling.

@Quantum, Gut Shot or Oust depending on what you're trying to kill seems better. PtE will likely give them land, which is precisely what we don't want when trying to tax them.

Revokers do most of what Needle would do. Needle can hit the non-mana abilities of lands, but so can Mangara and Wasteland. On the other hand, Needle can't hit things like Priest of Titania or LED. Having 4 Revokers + x Tutors is probably enough, unless you're doing this intentionally for wacky meta reasons.

4 gravehate tutor targets seems excessive. I'd change at least one into a fourth Tutor or another Silver bullet. I'd go with a Crypt and a Rest in Peace, but I know others prefer Relic. Wheel has its uses but those corner cases are overshadowed by the 2 colored-mana requirement, which RiP solves. (Again, I get that these choices could be meta-driven, but that wasn't stated so I'm going with my gut.)

Anarky87

09-25-2012, 12:20 PM

What would be a non-E Tutor SB, look like? Trying to get my SB in order for a few upcoming tournaments.

Wynk

09-25-2012, 02:08 PM

What would be a non-E Tutor SB, look like? Trying to get my SB in order for a few upcoming tournaments.

A very basic non-E tutor board would look somewhat like this:

4 Ethersworn Canonists
4 Judge's familiar
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Dryad Militant
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

By no means am I saying this is optimized, but it replaces the E-tutors with hate bears/creatures. Perhaps a few Oblivion Rings instead of the hate bear of your choice for the Show and Tell matchups?

I haven't tested it but I'm hoping the mana denial of the Familiars combined with Canonists/Thalia/Revokers, etc. will slow S and T down a bit.

hyggli

09-25-2012, 02:26 PM

I think Judge's Familiar is not a sideboard card... It's only -main 4x or not main 4x- , cause it's a card you do want to see in multiples in main and there are much better choices for the sb. there is canonist(you don't really need 8 must side-in vs storm if you're not in a storm-heavy meta) and vs miracle it's not that good. The other match you could side it in for is canadian, but it's a much better choice for the main, cause of sulfur elemental and the hate he is bringing in.

By the way... Show and tell/Sneak is a good matchup... I really can't see how you can lose(once I lost to a 2-force of will show and tell sneakattack/emrakul hand, but that's it)

Vs Omniscience there are better choices, again... We should just go for the canonists or a way to interrupt the cycle of petal of insights. We r not that fast to make judge's worth, here, and 3/4 karakas/mangara are enough for the emrakul plan. You could stick a pair of oblivion rings and it's great postboard(just care bout through the breach).

xifre

09-26-2012, 10:42 AM

Have you guys thought of adding Faith's Fetters as answer for Show and Tell Decks?

There was one time where I was able to shut down an SnT deck when i put it into play via their own Show and Tell..

If Faith's Fetters enters play, it automatically enchants itself to a permanent (Emrakul, Griselbrand, and Sneak Attack). In this way, they can't use the abilities anymore since the ability of Faith's Fetters does not go into the stack. No chance for them to respond.

The definite downside is its casting cost. A 4cc is such a problem for DnT. Am i right? But if facing SNT, you don't need to cast it..

P.S. Im not sure if Faith's Fetters will be anything helpful to that Omnisicence card.. But at least you can solve 3 of their threats...

Just my 2 cents.. I'm giving it a try again.. :P

Esper3k

09-26-2012, 10:49 AM

xifre

09-26-2012, 11:22 AM

I'm not certain this is correct. I believe putting in an aura into play via Show & Tell may be like the Clone situation - you can't attach it to what your opponent is bringing in off of Show & Tell because it's not on the battlefield before your aura comes into play.

I could be wrong, so can one of the judges confirm/deny this?

ok.. i guess we really need an intervenor on this.. that's what happened in one of my plays..

Barbed Blightning

09-26-2012, 11:23 AM

Regardless, I'd say that oblivion ring solves the problem of whatever permanent they show in.

Curby

09-26-2012, 11:49 AM

I'm with Esper and BB. I don't think it works, and even if it did O-Ring would be better. Better against continuous effects (does anyone still play Iona?), better against Omniscience, etc. The only problem with O-Ring is it doesn't help against Hive Mind, as they can cast Pacts with O-Ring on the stack. Of course, Fetters doesn't help in that case either.

Re: rules http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=9095438#post9095438

Tempus

09-27-2012, 04:53 AM

You can't attach an aura you show and telled in to a permanent that was put into play with the same show and tell.
Oblivion Ring is different as the trigger removes the permanent and Oblivion Ring doesn't target itself.

xifre

09-27-2012, 11:16 AM

Curby

09-27-2012, 12:19 PM

Oblivion Ring is different as the trigger removes the permanent and Oblivion Ring doesn't target itself.

I'd say the difference is that Oblivion Ring doesn't target anything as it comes into play; instead it targets things when it comes into play. That tiny but critical difference means O-Ring's ability goes on the stack, and by the time it resolves any other SnT permanent will also be fair game (barring protection or other restrictions).

Finn

09-30-2012, 07:00 PM

I am unwilling to part with my tutor board for now. I tried it without for a bit, but I was not especially pleased. If Elves gets really big and Omniscience dies for some reason, I will probably switch. But not yet.

Also, thumbs up for Judge's Familiar so far. I only have two in the main, but I am happy with them. Flying makes all the difference.

Penguinizer

10-03-2012, 01:52 PM

I'm curious, what did you cut out of the deck to make room? I've been thinking about playing them but I simply don't have the slots.

Finn

10-05-2012, 10:59 AM

I moved Jotun Grunts to the sideboard, as did a few other players. They really only shine against RUG and are kinda bad against Miracles.

Purple_Shrimp

10-06-2012, 09:32 PM

for what it's worth, here are the two major reasons why I'm keeping 2 Jotun Grunts, and 0 Judge's Familiars, in the maindeck. (still undecided on the sideboard configuration)

1. Familiar is more of an early-game play, whereas Grunt is generally more late-game, but the deck is a lot more late-game oriented. Unless we've got some serious mana-denial going on, the Cursecatcher ability seems like it falls off the radar pretty quickly, and the 1/1 body is quite marginal. Grunt only gets better as the game goes on, on the other hand, and the 4/4 body is extremely powerful even if we aren't getting value out of recycling the opponent's graveyard. There's an argument that a lot of Familiar's staying power comes from being a good sword-holder in the late-game, but I'd argue that if we've managed to start attacking with an equipped creature in the late-game we're doing well no matter what creature it is. (This argument is also less relevant for my build, since I only play Batterskull and Jitte in the main, but let's deal with this can of worms first :smile:)

2. In my opinion the more significant issue with Familiar is that he further complicates the mana curve of our creatures. There's no doubt that AEther Vial is one of the key cards in the deck, and most people would say that it's the most important. To make this point clearer, I'll first go through the three settings for Vial (1, 2 or 3 counters) in a pre-RTR build.

1 counter.
Mother of Runes: gains very little from being Vialed in, and is the only CMC-1 creature in the deck. in general, unless we get Vial-flooded, the only reason to use this slot is to tick up to 2 the next turn.

2 counters.
Stoneforge Mystic: a card that we really want to resolve, and so is generally a lot better off a Vial than hardcast.
Serra Avenger: good blocker, and Vial gives us a way to get around the casting restriction.
Thalia: nice to vial in on the opponent's upkeep, and also makes a good blocker. Vial is also very useful if we want to use Karakas to keep an opponent's Jitte/Batterskull/whatever out of combat.
Phyrexian Revoker: excellent way to disrupt the opponent's cards, and also gains a lot of value from being Vialed in (i.e. we can respond to them casting a Pernicious Deed, instead of having to cast it and guessing what they have)
Jotun Grunt: another great blocker, and also good off a Vial, since casting it normally is much less effective at battling something like Loam or Lingering Souls

3 counters.
Flickerwisp: the most versatile Vial trick in the deck by a long shot
Mangara of Corondor: Vial on three is very important for establishing a Mangara lock

This quick analysis hopefully reveals what I find to be the biggest issue with the deck, which is the competition between Vial at 2 and Vial at 3. 3 gives us access to some really good tricks, but has far fewer creatures to support it, so I always feel uncomfortable ticking my vial up to 3 unless I have a hand overflowing with flickers and mangoes. I think a vial at 2 generally wins, just because we run many more creatures at that CMC, but it's very much a quality vs quantity issue and it's generally best to just have two vials.

Cutting Jotun Grunt for Judge's Familiar muddies the waters here even further. Familiar gets pretty substantial value from being Vialed in, but giving value to a Vial at 1 complicates the issue, since we now have three competing slots rather than two. Simultaneously, getting rid of Grunt makes a Vial at 2 less good, to the extent that it's on a pretty even footing with Vial at 3.

this argument went on a lot longer than I was anticipating, but just to conclude this second point: including Judge's Familiar (especially at the cost of Jotun Grunt) in the main spreads our creatures more thinly around different CMCs, which I think should be avoided in a deck that uses Vial so heavily.

Penguinizer

10-07-2012, 10:39 AM

I went to a 15-man Legacy event today. I decided to try out 3x Judge's Familiar main with the Jötun Grunts in the SB.

I had the following decklist:
Lands: 22
8x Plains
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair

Creatures:
4x Mother of Runes
3x Judge's Familiar
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells:11
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

SB:
3x Jötun Grunt
1x Judge's Familiar (didn't have anything better)
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Rest in Peace
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Stony Silence
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Metamorph

Since I'm bad at remembering the specific way things went, I'll just give a quick rundown of how it went.

Round 1, 2-0 vs. Monogreen stompy:
In both games, he goes for early game beats however I hold back with Mother of Runes and some other creatures and pull out ahead with a Jitte or Sword of Fire and Ice.

Round 2, 2-1 vs. High Tide:
Game 1, I land a quick Thalia with the aid of a Judge's Familiar (countering Remand). I land a Mother of Runes and then SFM for a sword and grind him down to 0. He doesn't draw well enough to combo off.

Game 2, I mulligan badly and lose.

Game 3, Much like the first, I land a quick Thalia, search up a sword and go for beats. However, this game I win because he goes to combo off of 4 lands, however I sac Familiar on his first (and only) high tide, causing him to fizzle as he doesn't have enough lands available to combo off of.

Round 3, Jund thing (Lothleth Troll, Gravecrawler, Vengevine, Goblin Bombardment and others). 0-2.
I play horrifically both games and lose as a result. Largely caused by my own ineptitude

Round 4, 2-0 vs. Helm of Obedience combo:
Game 1, he has to mulligan several times. He starts off with a quick leyline but revoker and fast beats means I win before he can do much.

Game 2 he switches to a storm plan off of the SB however Revoker on LED (I knew he'd do this since he's friend of mine and I watched him playtest the deck earlier during the week.) followed by a bad Ad Nauseam (no significant manasources and a lot of high mana spells leads to an easy win.

Top 4 round 1: Vs. Sneak and Show.
Once again, I more or less know what he's playing since I sat next to him in an earlier round. Karakas into vial followed by a Revoker on Sneak Attack stops him from doing much. Same happens in game 2.

Top 4 round 2 (finals): Vs. MUD thing.
Game 1, I mulligan badly and go with a risky hand that doesn't pay off.
Game 2, I land a vial followed by a turn 3 Serra Avenger+Stony Silence in an attempt to shut him down. He draws Ancestral Tomb+City of Traitors and races me with Lodestone Golem. I don't draw enough lands to play a Flickerwisp on my Stony Silence to vial in anything so I lose. In short, I kept hands that were way too risky.

EDIT: Also, rather unrelated, but does anyone know a good way to get air out of double sleeved cards? My sideboard has about tripled in size.

Finn

10-15-2012, 07:47 PM

I would have thought that Stony Silence was unrecoverable for MUD! You must have really been in a spot to not get any aggro out after that. Thanks for the report.

thefreakaccident

10-18-2012, 11:22 PM

Thanks for the report.

I felt the report was weak, seeing as it had very few details: only describing the victories, and excusing the losses as bullshit. LoL.

That aside, i feel like the deck should be maxing out on the mangara/thalia slots... The card I look at to do this is flickerwisp. The card is weak without vial; yes it holds equipment, but so does anything with flying. The only real uses of flickerwisp are protecting creatures/renaming revokers/mangara combo... I would rather increase redundancy for what, I feel, is the 'core' of the deck.

Coming from the list in the report:
-4 flickerwisp
+1 thalia
+1 mangara
+1 judge's familiar
+1 revoker

The legends are removal magnets, and revokers/familiars help tempo.

berksowl

10-19-2012, 12:53 AM

I'd argue the Flickerwisps are redundancy. They'll vial in to bounce a Thalia or Mangara, but better than Karakas does. Like Mangara, they're another way to get stuff out of the way. Like Mom, they'll let you attack around a creature (by removing for a turn). Its versatile, and its probably the best card in the deck.

But if you get in anything near a representative sample of games without it, I'm keen to hear how it goes.

Finn

10-19-2012, 01:20 PM

If I had a nickel for every player who thinks Flickerwisp is not pulling its weight just by looking at it, I would, well...have a pocket full of nickels at least. I am not pointing a finger at you Freakaccident, but it is true that I have come to view people who do not like Flickerwisp as either inexperienced with it or lacking in imagination or something. Defending its inclusion has become something of a joke to successful D&T pilots. Those of us who use it usually feel that it is the perfect card for the deck. Even without an active Vial, it does so damned many things. I mean, you just about never see good players cutting even one of them from their lists. There must be a reason. My opponents who feel the business end of it seem to feel that I got lucky to have the perfect [narrow] card in a niche situation. Yeah, but after the umpteenth perfect niche situation in a row you eventually have to admit that it is actually quite broadly effective in this deck. Not absurdly powerful like Delver, but exactly what this deck needs.

Koby

10-19-2012, 01:50 PM

My favorite use of Flickerwisp is taxing lands at my EOT to remove on of their sources. Also, resetting O-ring to Legend rule Jaces. Also, resetting Jaces. Also, (etc)

Shinwei

10-31-2012, 12:43 AM

Luca Grease

10-31-2012, 09:15 AM

I decided to dust this deck off after a while and played some matches against my friend, who was playing miracles.

The results were not great. I ended up losing 4 games in a row and feeling like terminus just completely outclassed everything I could muster. Aside from slowing him down a little bit using Thalia and ports / wastelands, it didn't feel like there was much else I could do. Mangara never showed up in any of those games, and we obviously don't have brainstorm power to make him more consistent.

Anyone have any advice for this match up? What are some good sideboard choices versus miracles?

U/W miracles is actually, in my experience, a good match-up for death and taxes if you know how to play it. The key against that deck is to revoke his Sensei's divining top. Side in pithing needle if you have it and absolutely run x4 revokers (second target is Jace, but top has absolute priority unless there's a jace on the board). Once the top is revoked, terminus becomes much less of a threat. The secret against it is not to overextend: as long as you are applying some pressure, keep your creatures in hand rather than trying to go for a fast finish: you'll recover much better from a sweep.
Your best cards against miracles are: Revoker, Aether Vial, Thalia & Mangara (even better with Karakas and Vial backup), Wasteland & Rishadan Port (cut white mana when you can), and Flickerwisp. Swords to plowshares are mostly useless and Serra Avengers and Batterskull don't really shine. Side them out for more Phyrexian revokers or Pithing Needle, Judge's familiars, SoLaS and Oblivion Ring(s).

Hope this helps

Brooksy01

11-04-2012, 10:34 PM

berksowl

11-05-2012, 10:40 PM

New to the forum, first off, so this is my first post on this thread.

I just wanted to mention that I've been testing out, rather than Judge's Familiar, Dryad Militants in my main. So far they've proven to be a fairly significant card in my personal opinion, especially since they shut off Cabal Therapy flashbacks against Dredge and much more importantly, Nic Fit, which I've been discovering is a fairly hard matchup, especially with the slow emergence of the Scapewish variant. In my local meta, I've been loving them, and at yesterday's NELC, I wasn't too disappointed in drawing them, nor did I ever find myself saying "Man, I wish I would have swapped these for Familiar today."

Just my thoughts on that.

I hear ya, but I just think that Judge's Familiar has more pertinent matchups in the meta I've been playing in: RUG Delver and combo specifically. I'd want Dryad Militants in my board, not in the main. And the trouble with that is that Rest in Peace is much much better at accomplishing what it needs to than Militants, enough so that I don't mind that it can't be Vialed in, costs an extra mana, and can't carry an equipment or attack.

Brooksy01

11-06-2012, 04:15 PM

Barbed Blightning

11-06-2012, 08:49 PM

I think in the end both Familiar and Militant are valid maindeck one drops that this deck has needed for a while. In my meta, I have a fair bit of Nic-Fit and dredge to deal with, so for me, I've been making the Militant call. That being said, I have no problems switching it up depending on the meta.

Agreed. If storm decks and Canadian are popular in a meta, then familiar is probably better. However, most storm decjs nowadays rely on their yard to loop with ill gotten gains and past in flames, so either is quite valid, imo. I will say this about militant :it beats for 2 consistently without dying to be used.

Koby

11-15-2012, 12:53 PM

Thoughts on Orim's Chant/Silence as a way to de facto beat Miracles and improve the Storm matchups?

Finn

11-15-2012, 02:51 PM

Koby

11-15-2012, 03:27 PM

I am not inclined to make any major adjustments to fight Miracles frankly. I am well above fifty percent facing that deck as things are. The uwr version is a bit easier than the uw one as long as nobody starts including stuff like Pyroclasm in the side.

I am similarly unenthusiastic about including extra storm hate. Dread of Night is effective at handling Thalia but not Canonists or Revokers. I do pretty well in this one also, especially now with Familiars.

Storm has been shifting towards Abrupt Decay rather than rely on Dread of Night, since as you said, it can only kill Thalia/Mom in singular. Since they are shifting towards answers that address permanents and boarding out discard, Silence effects turns the tables on them. It also gives you an out to turn 1-2 combo plays.

Finn

11-15-2012, 10:03 PM

Yes. I have faced that! I got hammered too. Of course the guy cast ALL FOUR Abrupt Decays by turn six or something. Me, with a good, but mortal hand ran out of disruption by then and he somehow still drew into the necessary gas to go off without difficulty. I was positively flummoxed. But if those had been Dread off Night I would have been just as dead. Let me be clear on this. Dread of Night is viciously effective against D&T for that deck, especially if they get two of them. It costs 1, can be cast preemptively on turn 1, kills all kinds if stuff all at once, and sticks around to fuck you some more. It is a true hoser.

By contrast, a two-mana, two color spell that goes 1-for-1 is hardly something I am going to alter my plan over. True, they can cast it EOT and go off, but I certainly expect no less from a good pilot. It can't be countered by spells or abilities, but it can be countered by Mother of Runes' protection. I would say that Abrupt Decay weakens their matchup considerably against D&T.

pandaman

11-20-2012, 09:56 PM

After weeks of playing Combo, I dusted off D&T for the local. 34 players turned out - biggest Legacy tournament ever in Brisbane, Queensland!

Maindeck (60)

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains

4 Aether Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mangara of Corondor

1 Batterskull

Sideboard (15)

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Honor of the Pure
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Cataclysm
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Round 1 - Elves - Win 2-0

Jitte came down on Turn 3 in the 1st game and Turn 3 in the 2nd game. Thalia and Serra Avenger suited up and mowed down the hordes.

Board: -4 Mangara of Corondor +1 Umezawa's Jitte +1 Cataclysm +1 Honor of the Pure +1 Oblivion Ring

Round 2 - UR Delver - Win 2-0

In Game 1 he piled on the pressure with a flipped Delver and 2 Goblin Guides. I dropped to 12 quickly, but had my Turn 1 Aether Vial charged up to three counters and a Mother of Runes on the board. Flickerwisp reset Delver and blocked a Goblin Guide, Mother gave it protection, and then Stoneforge Mystic found Batterskull and Jitte for the win.

In Game 2 he kept a very burn heavy hand. Eventually I drew out his burn and landed a Stoneforge Mystic for Batterskull, and a subsequent Serra Avenger picked up a Jitte to end things quickly.

Board: -2 Mangara of Corondor -4 Phyrexian Revoker +1 Umezawa's Jitte +1 Cataclysm +1 Honor of the Pure +2 Oblivion Ring +1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Round 3 - BGW Pox - Win 2-0

We trade resources back and forth and get into topdeck mode. Except he's topdecking threats and I'm topdecking land and Aether Vials. Deathrite Shaman and Liliana of the Veil team up with Mishra's Factory to significantly dent my life total, but I rip a Thalia and Stoneforge Mystic in quick succession, surprise the Mishra's Factory with Thalia off Vial and Stoneforge up a Batterskull. Then I start drawing gas and he starts drawing lands, and I take a close game.

In the second game I Pithing Needle a Deathrite Shaman and Revoker a Liliana. He attempts to Swords my Revoker and I tank, eventually deciding to Vial in Flickerwisp in response to the Swords to flicker his Liliana so I can fly over and kill it next turn (I figured if I save the Revoker he gets the Liliana activation, which was his plan). He's taken completely off guard by this play, and I am helped by a topdecked Stoneforge Mystic the next turn. Batterskull makes the party a short one.

As an aside, Deathrite Shaman is nuts. Nuts, nuts, totally nuts. Such a good card.

Board: -4 Mangara of Corondor, -4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Rest in Peace, +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Umezawa's Jitte

Round 4 - Black MUD - Win 2-0

He plays an Ancient Tomb, Lotus Petal, Chalice for 1. I waste his Ancient Tomb. He plays a Swamp and doesn't hit a land for the rest of the game. Thalia and Jitte make sure he doesn't get too many more turns to draw into it.

In Game 2 he explodes with Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith, Metalworker, which I calmly Swords to Plowshares. This sets him back a lot and allows me to establish board position with Revoker naming Metalworker, Batterskull and Jitte. Stoneforge Mystics bravely sacrifice themselves in front of a rampaging Wurmcoil Engine and Batterskull suits up with the Jitte to make it a lifegain race. However, it swings my way when I runner-runner two Serra Avengers and start flying over with Jitte. He pulls the trigger with Kuldotha Forgemaster only to find that he sideboarded out his Platinum Angel (I had 4 Jitte counters to kill it in response to the Lightning Greaves equip) and gets Wurmcoil instead, but he's still losing the race badly. I kill a Metalworker with Jitte and flicker out my Revoker and in response he Forgemasters for another Metalworker. I have lethal on the board and so when Revoker comes back I name Lightning Greaves, knowing he needs to Forgemaster the next turn for the win and he can't do it if it doesn't have haste.

Board: -4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben -2 Mangara of Corondor +2 Oblivion Ring +1 Pithing Needle +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant +1 Cataclysm +1 Phyrexian Metamorph

I don't drop a game and end up on 12 points after 4 rounds and in equal first place, scooping $55 in store credit.

I'm sure some of my plays weren't optimal, and it makes me sad that I haven't played the deck more. I vow that I will play with it until I don't make the money!

Thoughts: I didn't sideboard E-Tutors at all... maybe they should go.

EpicLevelCommoner

11-21-2012, 12:20 AM

How does this deck fare against combo (i.e. Storm, Charbelcher, High Tide, Omniscience, Reanimator, Dredge . . . anything that can win explosively turn 1 or turn 2), UW Stoneblade/Miracles, and RUG Delver? Matchups in general?

Reason for asking? I just like the Mango Crackers combo, but I've already dedicated some time in building my Nic Fit list, so I don't want to build another deck that has the same great matchups and the same terribad matchups, ya'know?

monovfox

11-21-2012, 03:56 AM

Rug delver is not even a matchup for us. Just play rest in peace, cruise to victory. Combo is somewhat harder for us. But easier than nic fit. Also, nic fit is a bad matchup for us. So if you want to kill us, play nic fit.

DalkonCledwin

11-27-2012, 01:38 PM

Quantum

11-27-2012, 03:56 PM

So I am thinking of picking Legacy back up, and as per usual the deck I am thinking of utilizing is Death and Taxes. I would be posting over on MTGSalvation about this, if I hadn't gotten banned for a stupid reason. But I am wondering if Death and Taxes is still viable and effective in the current meta or if I should instead be considering some other deck.Really depends on your local meta... if you play against a lot of Omnitell/Storm/High Tide, it's a terrible decision. Goblins, Maverick, Blade Control, great decision. UWx Miracles, get ready for a grind.

DalkonCledwin

11-27-2012, 04:09 PM

Really depends on your local meta... if you play against a lot of Omnitell/Storm/High Tide, it's a terrible decision. Goblins, Maverick, Blade Control, great decision. UWx Miracles, get ready for a grind.

According to a friend of mine who plays frequently in our local meta... he says the Local Meta is rather diverse bordering on the kind of diversity that one can expect to find at a Star City Games Open Series event. What that means exactly I am not sure. But I figure that I can expect a wide open field of various kinds of decks to have to play against.

Finn

11-28-2012, 03:05 PM

DalkonCledwin

11-28-2012, 03:35 PM

The current bad matchups are Elves, 12-Post, and Belcher. Storm is now a pretty good matchup. Even when they have dedicated hate like Dread of Night. Amazing, right? Omniscience is also pretty good for us, though not as good as storm. Spiral Tide: I don't know for sure due to limited testing, but we have pretty good ways to interact with that deck. I don't know how long ago you stopped following the format, but last year we got Thalia, which has been huge. This year we got Judge's Familiar, which has been pretty good. The deck is as strong as it has ever been.

Thank you Finn, that is what I kind of wanted to know. I have been playing around with the deck on Cockatrice, and plan on taking it to a local tournament this Saturday. And while I don't actually have Rishadan Ports in my physical deck as of yet, I am hoping to get them as Christmas Gifts, and if I don't I should have enough money saved up to pick them up after Christmas just in case. That combined with the other cards I have picked up should make my deck comparable with the other death and taxes decks out there.

I am also kind of hoping to go to a major legacy tournament in the near future and as such am putting in massive training periods each day with the deck utilizing Cockatrice so as to get better at understanding the deck. I hope all of this pays off and I am able to place well in the tournament that I am planning to go to. I would post the list I am testing, but I kind of want to maintain some level of secrecy when it comes to this deck.

attemanden

11-30-2012, 04:59 PM

what would you board in vs merfolks?

DalkonCledwin

12-01-2012, 12:20 PM

what would you board in vs merfolks?

that depends on your decks design. I would say that a sword of fire and ice equipped to a Serra Avenger is always a plus. And a Mother of Runes that is active can really help alot. But what really wins the day against Merfolk is a Batterskull, either as a Germ Token, or more preferably equipped to a flying creature. But that is just my take on the issue. Not really a whole lot to board in. Though I suppose you could board in Gut Shot and Oust to help speed up the kills on certain Lords (though Gut Shot loses a lot of power after two or more Lords hit the field).

Barbed Blightning

12-01-2012, 12:45 PM

what would you board in vs merfolks?

You don't, unless you're bringing in sword of fire and ice. You should be automatically crushing that deck. Your vial is stronger at revealing powerhouses, and they die to a mangara lock. Serra avenger locks down combat with mom backup.

Fish is extremely easy in short.

f|i[p]

12-03-2012, 04:47 AM

Greetings,

Just a quick intro, since I don't normally post here..
I normally play Mav, stax, junk/nicfit variants... my pet deck is stax, but since it kinda sucks nowadays I just play it casually...

I decided to play my last tournament this year, using D and T since I think that it plays better than mav vs the ever so popular miracles in my area...

I also see it as somewhat stax ish...in regards that it plays a little prison effect...

I haven't been able to play magic/play test as much, and even join tourneys for 2 months or so but was still blessed by God with 2nd in a 74 man tourney yesterday...

My list is just a little different since, I think I need a little more muscle in the my list, and that i have always played with 61 cards..

23 lands

5 fetch
3 karakas
2 plains
4 savannah
2 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port

11 spells
4 stp
4 vial
1 batterskull
1 sofi
1 jitte

27 creatures

4 mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 revokers
2 serra avenger
4 flicker
4 kotr
2 mangara

Sb
3 needle
1 e.tutor
2 gaddock
1 cannonist
1 true believer -- didn't have the 2nd cannonist, thought this might help vs rip helm combo as well as combo.. but anyway
2 rip
2 tormods
2 path
1 cataclysm - didn't know what to put in this slot anymore...was thinking of anti gobs or tribal.

REport...ill keep it simple.. since i was really tired that day...Im just trying to remember my sideboard choices so it may not be accurate.

RND 1 vs- BW stoneblade

Game 1- win via stone forge batterskulll.. he gets disrupted by ports and waste..
SB- I don't remember what I put in.. but I think I try to put in true believer... which got sworded anyway..
Game 2- win via batterskull again... he gets disrupted with ports and waste.... his answers were turns late..

RND 2 vs- Merf

Game 1- win via mom kotr..
Sb- out revokers - in pte cataclysm... I don't remember if I boarded out 1 mangara for 1gaddock..
Game 2- loss - didn't draw any relevant creatures...
Game 3- draw- I miss calculate and left him at 1 during the 5 turns... I should have wasted my own land instead of his land since there was a kotr attacking...

RND 3 vs- Miracle

Game 1- loss I didn't get the 2nd white land...
SB- out stp- jitte batterskull 1 stf in- 3 pithing 1tutor-2 gaddock- 1 cataclysm
Game 2- win I needle sensei, lock his lands and win via kotr
Game 3- long long game. I won via miracle. humility in play, and he is beating with 1/1s but decides to disenchant his own humility because he knew time was running out and I had more creatures.I was losing card advantage bad due to jace as he already had around 6 cards and I had zero, I finally got some threats via canopy and got to equip sofi on serra avenger and kill vendillion and snap caster, He gets to cast 2 entreat tokens because of land locks...Vials are at 2 and 3....he is down t 3, while I am down to 9...I know he has terminus at the top of his library because of cb.. He attacks one last time which brings me down to 5 ... I draw flicker wisp, He casts terminus and passes the turn.... he brainstorms with jace and passes the turn...I drop flicker at end of his turn and win from there...

RND 4 vs-merf

Game 1 -win stoneforge - batterskull... flicker wisp stoneforge,- sofi.. sofi with batterskull...
SB- out -1 revoker -2 mangara- in- -2 path 1 cataclysm.
Game 2 - win.. Win via serra avenger with sofi...

RND 5 vs Miracle stoneblade..

Game 1- loss.. he gets to set up counterbalance.. I guess it was my mistake.. as I had 2 lands, thalia and revoker in hand.. he had sensei and cb, no free mana.. , but I decided to put down thalia first to draw an stp instead of revoker...from then on.. everything is countered...
SB- Im trying to figure out if I should board out stps for this match up since I know he is more of a stoneblade miracle..OUt- 2 stp jitte batterskull 1 stone forge... In - 3 needle 1 etutor, cataclysm
Game 2- pithing needles win the game, I draw 2 with the first getting FOwed...Thalia beats down... He gets EE for 1.. I drop revokers on EE... He stps revoker, and activates EE, which gets my needles.. he is tapped out, I ee to another needle.. and win from there even if he gets to terminus 2x..
Game 3- draw

RND 6- miracles again
Game 1 -Vial wins the game.. he is a bit on a rush and Im not sure if he is trying to pressure me with the way he is rushing...
SB- out stp- jitte batterskull 1 stf in- 3 pithing 1tutor-2 gaddock- 1 cataclysm
Game 2 -He tried to kill me with vendillion,but managed to block it with a vialed wisp.. Win via mangara and flickerwisp, I managed to remove a few lands and keep his lands in control..

RND 7- Rug

Game1 - I win via taxing his mana...
SB- out - 3 revokers 1 mangara . -- in 2 path , 2 RIP
Game 2- Win via vial and stoneforge to batterskull and sofi...

TOP 8

RND 1-Goblins

Game 1- I am winning via serra avenger equipped with sofi, revokers on his vial, but he still manages to destroy the sofi, by calling matron on tuktuk, then casting kikijiki to copy matron which calls stingscrounger that bounces revoker to hand.. then he uses his vial at 4 to put tuktuk to destroy sofi... he manages to catch up, but its a good thing he is at low life and can't block flying creatures...
SB- out 2 mangara 3 revokers ---- in 2 path to exile, 1 cataclysm, 2 gaddock(for pyro ken-- at least this is better than revokers)
Game 2- win via jedi cut. - he mulls to 5...

Didn't want to push through with the rest of the rounds as I was really tired and it was already 11 pm..We had to change venue as well since the shops were closing...

RND 2-vs dredge --
Game 1 - loss - i die to the red creature that deals damage as it comes to play..
SB- I put in 13 cards....except cannonist and cataclysm
Game 2- win via rip
Game 3- I mull to 6 but draw a tormods and rip with only 1 land...I manage to delay enough to draw the 2nd land... he draws into arbor, and casts rev silence on rip... I cast needle naming phantasmogorian and revoker naming street wraith, stp the arbor... I draw into tutor and get my second RIp.. which wins me the game..

RND 3- ANT

Game 1- he gets to cabal revoker before I cast it and combos off.
Game 2- I play with 5 lands with 2 canopies, gaddock and kotr... I didn't mull hoping to get more hate... I draw into more lands with canopy and draw another on my draw step..He comboes off... I should have mulled, I always make this mistake when I am tired and just want to rest and get over with the tournament...

Over all, fun tournament but it should have not lasted till 1230am...There were alot of delays.

If I were to change something... I think I might need to add an extra serra avenger, and remove another creature...
Also, I will need to add another sb for combo... and take out cataclysm...

MGB

12-03-2012, 10:54 AM

DalkonCledwin

12-03-2012, 03:43 PM

The worst match-up has to be anything removal-heavy mono-black or black-splashed playing stuff like Darkblast and Engineered Plague, however. That match-up is nearly un-winnable for Death and Taxes.

how does something playing Engineered Plague make the match up unwinnable for Death and Taxes? Also, Darkblast is only a threat if you don't get Mom Online prior to him being able to start casting it on us. Removal Heavy Decks such as Pox, and similar decks are a threat I agree, but Mom, Thalia, and Judge's Familiar kind of mitigate that threat at least a little bit. Add in Rishadan Port and it becomes even more difficult for these decks to begin casting their removal spells.

The decks I see as the biggest threat for us, happens to be decks based around Blood Moon which can shut off our entire land package.

Esper3k

12-03-2012, 03:52 PM

how does something playing Engineered Plague make the match up unwinnable for Death and Taxes? Also, Darkblast is only a threat if you don't get Mom Online prior to him being able to start casting it on us. Removal Heavy Decks such as Pox, and similar decks are a threat I agree, but Mom, Thalia, and Judge's Familiar kind of mitigate that threat at least a little bit. Add in Rishadan Port and it becomes even more difficult for these decks to begin casting their removal spells.

The decks I see as the biggest threat for us, happens to be decks based around Blood Moon which can shut off our entire land package.

Darkblast is great at fighting Moms even if they're active. All you have to do is end of their turn, Darkblast the Mother (forcing it to tap), then you dredge it back on your turn and Darkblast her again. Sure, you 2-for-1'd yourself, but you got rid of the Mother and theoretically can deal with the other threats now.

MGB

12-03-2012, 04:00 PM

how does something playing Engineered Plague make the match up unwinnable for Death and Taxes? Also, Darkblast is only a threat if you don't get Mom Online prior to him being able to start casting it on us. Removal Heavy Decks such as Pox, and similar decks are a threat I agree, but Mom, Thalia, and Judge's Familiar kind of mitigate that threat at least a little bit. Add in Rishadan Port and it becomes even more difficult for these decks to begin casting their removal spells.

A Darkblast in hand or in the graveyard makes Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Mangara blank cards, basically. You're right that he can't depend on Darkblast in every opening hand, but often enough there will be a situation where either he gets it first or you don't get Mother of Runes in play without summoning sickness... and then Darkblast ruins everything.

Engineered Plague naming "Human" is pretty bad for this deck, don't you think? If he can kill Mother of Runes, Mangara, and Thalia all as they enter the battlefield, and turn off 12 of your cards with 1 of his, then he can focus the rest of his deck on what threats you have left. And he can even go ahead and name "Elemental" with his second Plague to turn off Flickerwisp if need be.

DalkonCledwin

12-03-2012, 06:16 PM

A Darkblast in hand or in the graveyard makes Mother of Runes, Thalia, and Mangara blank cards, basically. You're right that he can't depend on Darkblast in every opening hand, but often enough there will be a situation where either he gets it first or you don't get Mother of Runes in play without summoning sickness... and then Darkblast ruins everything.

Engineered Plague naming "Human" is pretty bad for this deck, don't you think? If he can kill Mother of Runes, Mangara, and Thalia all as they enter the battlefield, and turn off 12 of your cards with 1 of his, then he can focus the rest of his deck on what threats you have left. And he can even go ahead and name "Elemental" with his second Plague to turn off Flickerwisp if need be.

Both of these problems can essentially be solved by Honor of the Pure though. Which is one reason I am still in favor of the Tutor Board.

Finn

12-03-2012, 08:01 PM

MGB

12-04-2012, 11:37 AM

You fetch Sword of Light and Shadow with Mystic and win. Darkblast is good, yeah, but it is 1-1 at best. I have not faced these kinds of decks in some time, but these are not new tactics. Vial still blows much of what their sorceries do out of the water. I can't believe that the matchup has gotten so bad from being pretty easy.

Engineered Plague is a weak Dread of Night. Been there. Done that.

Alot of these decks also sideboard in Pithing Needles that shut down Vial / Swords (presumably there for the Miracles matchup).

Darkblast is a 1-1 but the opposing player can basically draw it every turn if he wants to. Which means that Mangara, Thalia, and Mother all are non-factors once Darkblast is in the graveyard or hand of that player. That leaves the DnT pilot with Stoneforge Mystic, Flickerwisp and Serra Avenger to win the game? And we presume that the opposing player has other removal spells and other cards in general aside from the Darkblast...

Finn

12-04-2012, 01:02 PM

I'm sure it is an issue. I have definitely lost my share of games to this card. But the creatures are not non-factors. You play them and force him to continue to draw the Darkblast rather than any other cards. It becomes an interesting scenario. Of course, in the past I had Jotun Grunt up my sleeve, and that has changed recently. I submit that it is not Darkblast that wins these games. It is the fact that Darkblast is now accompanied by stronger support cards. Deathrite will be loving the dredge each turn and Decay is maindeck hate for Vials that never existed before. It is certainly harder.

But any deck that has zero to two basic lands is in for a rude awakening when faced with this deck no matter what its gameplan. I have beaten dredge through mana denial on a few occasions. It is significant.

I actually just realized that you are talking about mono black. If we are discussing a deck that has the vampire that makes you sacrifice a creature and a crazy amount of creature removal, yeah, it is not a good matchup at all. You are totally right.

I can't concern myself with narrow stuff like that though. There is a reason those decks are not quite viable. They are tuned to a metagame of some tiny fraction of the field. I am much more interested in the BUG decks that have a singleton Darkblast.

MGB

12-04-2012, 01:06 PM

DalkonCledwin

12-04-2012, 02:14 PM

Duly noted.

So I guess that the prevalence of BUG decks with Deathrite Shaman and maindeck or sideboarded Darkblast can mostly be handled with the strong mana disruption that Death n Taxes boasts?

Deathrite Shaman only targets stuff in the graveyards. Those are really a non-factor to Death and Taxes unless Sword of Light And Shadows is in play or Jotun Grunt is in play. Worst case scenario if you are afraid of Deathrite Shaman is that you can side in all of your Rest in Peace's and shut down graveyard manipulation in the entirety thereby turning Deathrite Shaman into a measly 1/2 creature with no relevant abilities.

As for Darkblast... I have won games off of Stoneforge Mystic and Serra Avenger alone. So I am not going to complain if those are my only two relevant creatures in a given match up. Especially when Stoneforge Mystic has the ability to summon Batterskull, and Batterskull can still effectively be bounced by Flickerwisp even if Flickerwisp is otherwise susceptible to Darkblast. Batterskull is obviously MVP in these match ups.

MGB

12-04-2012, 02:30 PM

Deathrite Shaman only targets stuff in the graveyards. Those are really a non-factor to Death and Taxes unless Sword of Light And Shadows is in play or Jotun Grunt is in play. Worst case scenario if you are afraid of Deathrite Shaman is that you can side in all of your Rest in Peace's and shut down graveyard manipulation in the entirety thereby turning Deathrite Shaman into a measly 1/2 creature with no relevant abilities.

As for Darkblast... I have won games off of Stoneforge Mystic and Serra Avenger alone. So I am not going to complain if those are my only two relevant creatures in a given match up. Especially when Stoneforge Mystic has the ability to summon Batterskull, and Batterskull can still effectively be bounced by Flickerwisp even if Flickerwisp is otherwise susceptible to Darkblast. Batterskull is obviously MVP in these match ups.

Of course, those decks that play Darkblast almost always play lots of other removal spells like the Gatekeeper, or Abrupt Decay, or Innocent Blood, or Edicts, or whatever else. So if you assume that the typical Death 'n Taxes deck plays around ~28 creatures, Darkblast invalidates at least 20/28 (71%) - Phyrexian Revoker, Flickerwisp, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Mangara - of your threats, and by invalidating Mother of Runes and Mangara, two of the core strategies of the deck. Darkblast in the graveyard or hand basically means that the DnT player has to draw one or more of the remaining 8 threats in the deck (Stoneforge Mystic or Serra Avenger) just to compete... and the opposing player can't draw other removal (Decay, whatever else) or just outright kill them in the mean time.

DalkonCledwin

12-04-2012, 02:38 PM

Of course, those decks that play Darkblast almost always play lots of other removal spells like the Gatekeeper, or Abrupt Decay, or Innocent Blood, or Edicts, or whatever else. So if you assume that the typical Death 'n Taxes deck plays around ~28 creatures, Darkblast invalidates at least 20/28 (71%) - Phyrexian Revoker, Flickerwisp, Mother of Runes, Thalia, Mangara - of your threats, and by invalidating Mother of Runes and Mangara, two of the core strategies of the deck. Darkblast in the graveyard or hand basically means that the DnT player has to draw one or more of the remaining 8 threats in the deck (Stoneforge Mystic or Serra Avenger) just to compete... and the opposing player can't draw other removal (Decay, whatever else) or just outright kill them in the mean time.

you realize your entire argument for the invalidation of this deck hinges upon the "It dies to removal" logical fallacy? According to your argument any deck with enough removal to take out 20 of 28 creatures should arguably be the best deck in the format, since you know, creatures die to removal.

Reality is that isn't the case. You want to know why? Because a vast majority of the good decks in the format either have very few creatures to be removed, or no creatures at all. Alternatively they can create so many creatures that creature removal becomes obsolete (Dredge).

Of course Darkblast is a viable threat, but what happens when these decks run up against a Death and Taxes deck running either Dryad Militant or Rest in Peace. Darkblast becomes significantly less impressive if it is exiled as soon as it is cast the first time, doesn't it?

MGB

12-04-2012, 02:55 PM

you realize your entire argument for the invalidation of this deck hinges upon the "It dies to removal" logical fallacy? According to your argument any deck with enough removal to take out 20 of 28 creatures should arguably be the best deck in the format, since you know, creatures die to removal.

Some decks do die to removal, however. If you play a deck with a limited number of threats, like say, RUG Delver, if you face a deck that can withstand the mana disruption that also plays enough removal to handle your few threats, then you will lose more often than not to that deck.

Reality is that isn't the case. You want to know why? Because a vast majority of the good decks in the format either have very few creatures to be removed, or no creatures at all. Alternatively they can create so many creatures that creature removal becomes obsolete (Dredge).

Obviously a deck consisting of nothing but creature removal would not be favored against the combo decks of this format. But even so, decks like that have a niche in a creature-heavy metagame. Look at IBA's Train Wreck deck, or his Mono-White Control deck.

And the decks in question right now are the BG or B decks that play discard spells in addition to removal. Playing Darkblast does not require a massive investment on the part of the BG or B player.

Of course Darkblast is a viable threat, but what happens when these decks run up against a Death and Taxes deck running either Dryad Militant or Rest in Peace. Darkblast becomes significantly less impressive if it is exiled as soon as it is cast the first time, doesn't it?

Now you're just talking about answers to answers. It's the graveyard hate vs. Nature's Claim/Ray of Revelation argument from dredge discussions.

DalkonCledwin

12-04-2012, 03:22 PM

Some decks do die to removal, however. If you play a deck with a limited number of threats, like say, RUG Delver, if you face a deck that can withstand the mana disruption that also plays enough removal to handle your few threats, then you will lose more often than not to that deck.

Obviously a deck consisting of nothing but creature removal would not be favored against the combo decks of this format. But even so, decks like that have a niche in a creature-heavy metagame. Look at IBA's Train Wreck deck, or his Mono-White Control deck.

And the decks in question right now are the BG or B decks that play discard spells in addition to removal. Playing Darkblast does not require a massive investment on the part of the BG or B player.

Now you're just talking about answers to answers. It's the graveyard hate vs. Nature's Claim/Ray of Revelation argument from dredge discussions.

Are you just here to argue that this deck dies to a niche deck with niche removal, or do you have some actual valid discussion to actually contribute to this thread? Arguing over the "Dies to removal" issue is not in my mind a valid argument because that line of reasoning can be applied to every deck in existence...

Storm dies to trickbind and stifle.
Enchantress dies to universal enchantment destruction as well as individual enchantment destruction.
Counterbalance decks die to Vials as well as enchantment destruction that gets past their balance.
creature based decks obviously die to creature removal.

there is no universal end all deck that is invincible to each and every single answer in existence. That would be really stupid of Wizards to print a set of cards that are that universally immune to other cards. And the instant they did print such a set of cards the game as we know it would DIE. There would be no reason not to play that deck as opposed to any other deck. Simply put, an invincible deck would be the only viable deck in any given format.

Simply put, the whole dies to removal argument is a logical fallacy that should never be argued in realistic terms because the instant you have a deck that doesn't die to removal, then that deck will dominate the format.

Finn

12-04-2012, 04:04 PM

Well, we aren't going to get anywhere this way. I think that Abrupt Decay is going to make things difficult in the short run. Even the storm decks are packing them and leaning heavily upon them. Strangely, while I had been thinking that Deathrite Shaman was going to be very hard on Dredge and Reanimator, I have been thinking that I want graveyard hate to use against Shaman as long as it is not getting in the way of offense. But I am betting that in a few months things will even out again. We are going to see more Tombstalkers and probably even more Jace. I am thinking that if the meta starts to turn that way, I want even more graveyard hate. Interestingly enough, it is Leyline of the Void that looks strongest. But I bet that we have enough bombs to keep their Decays choosing which evil to vanquish.

MGB

12-04-2012, 04:25 PM

Finn

12-04-2012, 05:48 PM

I think most of us are betting on it. As the disruption creatures have gotten progressively stronger for this deck, the graveyard hosers have become a less prominent part of the deck over time in favor of broader disruption. RiP seems to be a godsend for that. It is so over the top powerful that stuff like RUG, which used to usually shrug off graveyard hate is completely neutered by this card. ANT is also seriously hampered by it, where other forms of graveyard hate are not particularly good against it. Even against Nic Fit, which is not usually thought of as a graveyard deck, this card makes sense. No more Veteran Explorer, Cabal Therapy flashback, Vengevine, Sun Titan, Yosei, and plenty of other random would-be bombs they pack. I remember that it was unclear if it was worth bothering with Tormod's Crypt in some decks, but this card puts that concern to rest.

In fact, I think it is too good in a sense. Dredge and Reanimator pilots have traded in their Ancient Grudges for Reverent Silences or Ray of Revelations. If all or most graveyard hate looks the same, it makes it much easier to overcome. So we just have to see.

1337erhosen

12-09-2012, 09:06 AM

Ok, so I'm relatively new to this deck, just picked up my own copy of it a few weeks ago, and it's been a ton of fun.

I just have a few questions about how to mulligan with the deck. Assuming we're using a relative stock deck list:

Question 1:
Would you mulligan this hand blind on the play?

Wasteland
Rishidan Port
Aether Vial
Swords to Plowshares
Thalia
Flickerwisp
Mangara of the Corondor

Question 2:
Would you mulligan this hand blind on the play?

Karakas
Wasteland
Phyrexian Revoker
Thalia
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Flickerwisp

Just looking for some educated opinions from veteran pilots of the deck. Any feedback would be great!

from Cairo

12-09-2012, 06:33 PM

I'd keep the first sample hand. Starting Wasteland Vial, you can Port turn 2, and Vial in Thalia with a Port activation turn 3 and Wisp a land on upkeep with Port activation turn 4 makes it pretty good. Force of Will obviously knocks this plan, but drawing a Plains leaves the Thaila plan live again.

This line of play usually locks out Control and Combo and the hand has Swords and Flickerwisp to manage agro.

That second hand is probably keepable. The hand is a little clumbsy with the only White source being Karakas, but leading Wasteland means you can play SFM or Thalia turn 2 depending on what the opponent plays / what you can put them on.

In both these cases I can't see hitting a much better 6 card hand especially when your opponent's already going to be up a card.

These 2 non-basic hands are pretty common which is one of the reasons I'm a strong advocate of 23 land. Both these hands really want to see (another) White source in the first 2-3 draws.

Brooksy01

12-09-2012, 10:58 PM

DalkonCledwin

12-10-2012, 10:00 AM

So, has anyone actually tried out Spellskite to deal with the problems Abrupt Decay causes? I maindecked 2 yesterday at Mythic Games, and it caused considerable problems for the Junk deck I faced, especially when he had an Engineered Plague set on human, which deactivated my Mother of Runes. Abrupt Decay gets redirected, Swords does, and hell, even attacking with them having an active Maze of Ith can actually allow your flying sword-carrying dude hit. It's proven me to be a fantastic late game card in the grindy matchups, especially against Junk.

What would you cut in order to add Spellskite?

While Spellskite certainly has some interesting interactions with removal cards in the format, I don't think these interactions are all that beneficial when compared with other cards in the deck. For example I would rather run Mother of Runes over Spellskite if only for the fact that a Mom can be played for less than a spellskite can and doesn't require 2 life or 1 blue mana to activate.

In fact the only advantage I can see Spellskite offering over Mom is the ability to redirect Colorless effects onto itself.

Brooksy01

12-10-2012, 02:04 PM

I actually added Spellskite in the slots typically given to Dryad Militant/Judge's Familiar (Both meta-call cards for me) as a 2 of, and another beneficial factor it gives aside from the redirection of removal is the redirection of artifact hate. Another interesting application I noticed for Spellskite is in post board situations where Dread of Night and Engineered Plague set on human can potentially enter the field, both of which remove Mother of Runes from the equation.

I mean, it warrants further testing on my end to see if it's actually worth giving a slot to permanently, but it pulled it's weight for me in the Junk matchup when I faced it this past weekend, which makes me want to keep testing it, even to see if it's worth a 1-of on an ET board.

LegacyDan

12-11-2012, 07:58 PM

DalkonCledwin

12-11-2012, 11:13 PM

Hey, quit playing Legacy for two years, but I'm back and I've noticed some key changes. A few questions:

Batterskull- Seems kinda bad without SFM. Why it over a Sword of X and Y?

Judges Familiar- I tested the sample list and found I like these, but is there a reason we run them over other stuff?

Jotun Grunt- Where did he go? I realize he doesn't hinder the meta like he used too, but its still a solid beater. I'm assuming he went to the backseat for some reason or another.

Overall the games I've played today proved that the deck has power, and I still love the deck itself. I look forward to taking D+T to various SCGs and GPs.

Simple reason for Batterskull is because when combined with Stoneforge Mystic it either causes the opponent to waste a removal spell on Stoneforge Mystic that they wouldn't normally waste on such a card, or it comes into play off of the Stoneforge Mystic and generally proceeds to win you the game. Additionally it is not impossible to cast this card without the stoneforge mystic. I have done it on occasion. It just generally isn't very efficient to do so. That said, the interactions between Batterskull and Flickerwisp are also quite impressive.

With regard to Judge's Familiar, generally speaking that card is used to help with the mana denial package. Judge's Familiar can help clench the storm match up in our favor in a way that neither Thalia or Ethersworn Canonist is able to do on their own. This is because with Judge's Familiar you are able to effectively disrupt one of the Storm Deck's mana ramp spells. This is especially important if you manage to get the Judge's Familiar into play alongside of a Thalia whereby the mana disruption package is just even more potent. Additionally these two cards next to a Rishadan Port suddenly become just absolutely game breaking.

With regard to Jotun Grunt, he has effectively been replaced by the card Rest in Peace, which does everything that our old graveyard removal did and then some.

attemanden

12-13-2012, 06:12 AM

Hey guys.
I make my post in this thread since i think my deck is more like D'n'T than deadguy.
i just played a local tournament and find the deck pretty strong vs other creature decks and combo. but i lost to UW and Sneak'n show. i should have won the first game vs UW but made a couple of stupid moves. and didn't get my vials for game 2. i think UW is the biggest problem since they can bring in disenchants, pithing needles and more. these cards gave me a hard time game 2. what to do? just win game 1 and hope for a win game 2 or 3?

vs. Sneak'n show i feel its about how quick he can go off. needles and revokers orbviously take out sneak attack and O-ring is good for show and tell.

now my question is do we have a card in these matchups that's the boss?

heres my list:

Creatures: 24
4x Dark confidant
4x Mother of runes
3x Stoneforge mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of thraben
2x Hidehollow sculler
4x Serra Avenger
2x Mangara of corondor
2x Flickerwisp

artifacts 7
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
4x Æthervial

Instans: 4
4x Plowshares

Sorceries: 5
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of kozilek

lands 20
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
4x Flat marsh
1x Bloodstained mire
1x Verdant catacomb
1x Arid mesa
3x Plain
1x swamps

sideboard: 15
1x Rest in peace
1x Relic of progenitus
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Duress
1x Sword of feast and famine
1x Engineered plague
2x Oblivion ring
1x Path to exile
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing needle
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Extirpate

Round: 1. Loose 0-2 vs. U/W Miracles

Round: 2. Win 2-1 vs. Abyssal Persecutor deck.

Round: 3. Win 2-0 vs. Maverick

Round: 4. Loose 1-2 vs. Sneak'n Show.

btw. i wanna bring in an extra karakas. and maybe make a couple of changes for my SB. any surgestions?

Fry

12-13-2012, 02:25 PM

Hey guys.
I make my post in this thread since i think my deck is more like D'n'T than deadguy.

Creatures: 24
4x Dark confidant
4x Mother of runes
3x Stoneforge mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of thraben
2x Hidehollow sculler
4x Serra Avenger
2x Mangara of corondor
2x Flickerwisp

artifacts 7
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x Sword of fire and ice
4x Æthervial

Instans: 4
4x Plowshares

Sorceries: 5
2x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of kozilek

lands 20
4x Wasteland
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
4x Flat marsh
1x Bloodstained mire
1x Verdant catacomb
1x Arid mesa
3x Plain
1x swamps

sideboard: 15
1x Rest in peace
1x Relic of progenitus
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Duress
1x Sword of feast and famine
1x Engineered plague
2x Oblivion ring
1x Path to exile
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Pithing needle
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Extirpate

With the Bob's, and all the hand hate, it's Dead Guy, not D&T.

DalkonCledwin

12-13-2012, 05:06 PM

With the Bob's, and all the hand hate, it's Dead Guy, not D&T.

I beg to differ. That deck only has... 7 dedicated discard spells, one of them is Tidehallow Sculler. As for the Bob's, that is a card that has been in BW Death and Taxes from time to time. Though BW Death and Taxes is extremely rare as both UW and GW Death and Taxes are far more common. That said, the list as it stands definitely has more in common with Death and Taxes than it does with the stereotypical Deadguy deck. Mainly because the deck utilizes the Mangara Lock, less removal spells and the Thalia combination. So I would be happy to include it in this thread. (also is the fact that many Deadguy decks are now actually just BWG Rock decks).

That said, looking over the list there are a few concerns I have. First, why only 3 Stoneforges? I would think you would want to get that Batterskull out of your deck ASAP so you don't rim shot yourself for 5 off of the Dark Confidents. Also, you really want to be running more Flickerwisps. Especially if you are running Tidehallow Sculler's. Afterall Flickerwisp can essentially make Tidehallow Sculler double as effective as it normally would be, and make one of it's effects permanent to boot. The thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek while useful, are really going to slow your game down. I would personally cut them. While discard is nice, it is not the best part of this deck. The Tidehallow Scullers should be all the discard you will need. Especially if you up them to 4 instead of just 2.

Cut the Relic of Progenitus and Duress in the sideboard and add in 2 more Rest in Peace (they really are just that good). Cut the needle for a 3rd Revoker (Revoker is just better). And cut the Path to Exile for a 3rd Enlightened Tutor. Other than that the list looks really good.

EDIT: Also I would highly suggest cutting the non-marsh flats Fetch Lands in favor of 3 more Karakas. But thats just me.

attemanden

12-13-2012, 06:47 PM

DalkonCledwin

12-13-2012, 11:16 PM

Hey again. i really likes your comments on flickerwisp and tidehollow sculler and i will try it out right away. as for STM i think i can cut one. i dont want my hand to be full of them and one often seems enough. i can protect it with discard and mom's. also i want a lot of cards in this deck and thats just a card i think i can cut.

as for SB i was actaully thinking about cutting relic, needle and duress so thats cool you confirm. but what about O-rings? should i cut one? and what do you guys do vs. show and tell?

what i like about the discard package is that it helps a lot vs all kind of blue decks. and there are a lot of them. also inquisition of kozilek is more or less a creature removal spell for 1 mana, in creature matchups.
discard also helps me vs. miracles, but maybe there are other ways around?

thanks for the comments so far :)

The problem with cutting Stoneforge Mystic is that Stoneforge Mystic is really the most efficient way to play Batterskull. And right now Batterskull really is the best equipment that Death and Taxes (of any sort) happens to have. Unfortunately your deck is running so many things that cause life loss to you (Thoughtseizes, Dark Confidant, Fetchlands) that flipping Batterskull to a Dark Confidant and not having a Stoneforge Mystic or 5 mana producing lands available to immediately cast it will ultimately lose you the game due to hurting yourself more than your opponent hurts you. Thus it is actually in your best interest to have the maximum number of Stoneforge Mystics that you can have so that you can search for the Batterskull before you flip it over on a Dark Confidant draw, that way you don't take 5 damage from one of your own cards.

If you are worried about Show and Tell, then I highly recommend you keep the O-Rings. Those cards can be brutal if you put them into play off of a Show and Tell :D

As for the discard package vs. Blue decks... yes, discard does help against blue decks. But so does Æther Vial, as does Thalia, as does the new card Judges Familiar. There are a lot of things even within Mono-White Death and Taxes that help with Blue decks. The only blue deck that Mono-White Death and Taxes really has a problem with at the moment is UWx Miracles. I still say if your going to run black for bobs and discard, that the only discard you really need is Tidehallow Sculler. Anything else just cuts cards that are more important to the deck's core payload.

Valech

12-13-2012, 11:41 PM

I beg to differ. That deck only has... 7 dedicated discard spells, one of them is Tidehallow Sculler. As for the Bob's, that is a card that has been in BW Death and Taxes from time to time. Though BW Death and Taxes is extremely rare as both UW and GW Death and Taxes are far more common. That said, the list as it stands definitely has more in common with Death and Taxes than it does with the stereotypical Deadguy deck. Mainly because the deck utilizes the Mangara Lock, less removal spells and the Thalia combination. So I would be happy to include it in this thread. (also is the fact that many Deadguy decks are now actually just BWG Rock decks).

That said, looking over the list there are a few concerns I have. First, why only 3 Stoneforges? I would think you would want to get that Batterskull out of your deck ASAP so you don't rim shot yourself for 5 off of the Dark Confidents. Also, you really want to be running more Flickerwisps. Especially if you are running Tidehallow Sculler's. Afterall Flickerwisp can essentially make Tidehallow Sculler double as effective as it normally would be, and make one of it's effects permanent to boot. The thoughtseizes and Inquisitions of Kozilek while useful, are really going to slow your game down. I would personally cut them. While discard is nice, it is not the best part of this deck. The Tidehallow Scullers should be all the discard you will need. Especially if you up them to 4 instead of just 2.

Cut the Relic of Progenitus and Duress in the sideboard and add in 2 more Rest in Peace (they really are just that good). Cut the needle for a 3rd Revoker (Revoker is just better). And cut the Path to Exile for a 3rd Enlightened Tutor. Other than that the list looks really good.

EDIT: Also I would highly suggest cutting the non-marsh flats Fetch Lands in favor of 3 more Karakas. But thats just me.

I hope you´ll excuse, but I cannot resist the urge.
You beg to differ between BW Death and Taxes and state one paragraph below, that many DGA decks are now "actually just BGW Rock" decks. What the hell? Now i guess it´s my turn to beg to differ. There are currently two trends regarding DGA: The Vial-Version and the Greensplash-Version.
The Vialversion indeed is extremly similar to the above posted BW Death and Taxes Deck. The only difference between them are the Flickerwisps and the Mangaras. Everything else is, of course with slight variances, the same. You also mention, that the BW DnT Deck has only seven dedicated discard spells, which would be an indicator for having more in common with DnT then with the "stereotypical" DGA Deck. But currently discussed DGA build do not have much more discard then that. The times in which DGA would take a playset of Thoughtseize, Hymn and Cabal Therapy has long passed. Therefore, the above posted BW DnT build does have more in common with DGA then with DnT.

The other point I´d like to adress is the statement, that most DGA Decks are "actually BGW Rock" Decks. As mentioned above, there indeed is a Version of DGA splashing green. Mainreason for that is the (ab)use of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. As you easily will see, no KotR, no Eternal Witness, no Pernicious Deed, no Maelstrom Pulse (Perhaps sometimes as a one-off).

All in all, to say, that current Versions of DGA are "actually similar" to Rock, but the posted BW DnT Deck is not nearly as similar to DGA as it is to DnT is... bold and adaventurous.

DalkonCledwin

12-14-2012, 12:11 AM

I hope you´ll excuse, but I cannot resist the urge.
You beg to differ between BW Death and Taxes and state one paragraph below, that many DGA decks are now "actually just BGW Rock" decks. What the hell? Now i guess it´s my turn to beg to differ. There are currently two trends regarding DGA: The Vial-Version and the Greensplash-Version.
The Vialversion indeed is extremly similar to the above posted BW Death and Taxes Deck. The only difference between them are the Flickerwisps and the Mangaras. Everything else is, of course with slight variances, the same. You also mention, that the BW DnT Deck has only seven dedicated discard spells, which would be an indicator for having more in common with DnT then with the "stereotypical" DGA Deck. But currently discussed DGA build do not have much more discard then that. The times in which DGA would take a playset of Thoughtseize, Hymn and Cabal Therapy has long passed. Therefore, the above posted BW DnT build does have more in common with DGA then with DnT.

The other point I´d like to adress is the statement, that most DGA Decks are "actually BGW Rock" Decks. As mentioned above, there indeed is a Version of DGA splashing green. Mainreason for that is the (ab)use of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay. As you easily will see, no KotR, no Eternal Witness, no Pernicious Deed, no Maelstrom Pulse (Perhaps sometimes as a one-off).

All in all, to say, that current Versions of DGA are "actually similar" to Rock, but the posted BW DnT Deck is not nearly as similar to DGA as it is to DnT is... bold and adaventurous.

While I acknowledge that you are correct and that I mispoke regarding Deadguy Ale's types and I apologize for that. I do not retract my statement that the list in question has more in common with Death and Taxes than it does with Deadguy Ale. This is in part because of the inclusion of Mangara and Flickerwisp, but also because the owner of the deck has stated that it is his intention to be building a Black-White Death and Taxes and not a Deadguy Ale deck by posting it in this thread and not the Deadguy Ale thread. I have every intention of helping him with that goal. So I would appreciate it if you did not further derail this thread with discussion of Deadguy Ale that does not belong here.

If you have something to contribute to either Mono-White Death and Taxes, Green-White Death and Taxes, Blue-White Death and Taxes, or Black-White Death and Taxes (and yes all of these color variants have been tried and yes they are all different from the decks GW Maverick, UW Tempo, and Vial Deadguy) then please contribute. But if your only purpose here is to derail the thread then I will ask you to leave.

And honestly, please learn the history of the Rock. The Modern Versions of known as BGW Rock, have next to nothing in common with the historical versions of the Rock.

feline

01-02-2013, 10:40 AM

Thomas Enevoldsen - 3rd place of 39 players - EternalMagicKBH Invitational 2012 - Oct-21st-2012
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=9349&iddeck=68223
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
Lands[23]
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mutavault
1 Razorverge Thicket
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Wasteland
~SB
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Fiend Hunter
2 Gut Shot
2 Cataclysm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Leonin Bola
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace

Just 1 question, the mana base, does anyone have an explanation? I'm seriously wtf'ing, is it some weird ploy against opposing flashfires or something?

Finn

01-02-2013, 11:55 AM

Complete resistance to Flashfires

Anarky87

01-02-2013, 12:29 PM

I imagine it was a hilarious way to avoid the Massacre's being played in the UB/x decks. If you don't actually control a Plains, then they can't keep ripping free black WoG's on you.

Vacrix

01-05-2013, 04:15 AM

So Imperial Recruiter just got reprinted as a judge promo. Its still going to be expensive but far more affordable than it was.

Perhaps we'll see a RW Imperial Taxes build develop as a result for the players with bigger wallets? Conveniently, Recruiter is nuts with Flickerwisp, on top of being able to find useful utility creatures such as SFM, Revoker, Thalia, and Mangara.

More importantly, the Recruiter toolbox has a combo finish that only takes up 2 slots: Kiki-Jiki, and Pestermite. Vial is left at 3 in DnT anyway so you won't need to worry about having the blue source. Further, Kiki-Jiki can copy Recruiter so that you only need Recruiter to produce both Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite.This enables much faster wins. In fact, one could win as fast as turn 5.. for example..

Turn 1: Vial
Turn 2: Thalia/SFM/Revoker
Turn 3: Imperial Recruiter find Kiki-Jiki
Turn 4: Vial stops at 3
Turn 5: Kiki-Jiki, copy Recruiter, find Pestermite, Vial Pestermite, untap Kiki-Jiki. Win.

To win with the combo finish all you need is Recruiter and a Vial at 3. In fact, if you draw Flickerwisp in the later in the game with a Recruiter in play, you can win like that as well. Granted to win as fast as turn 5, you'd also need RRR and hit the land drop each turn. Further, the combo works through Thalia because everything is a creature.

However.. I see the strength of this combo being in that its very compact and the Recruiter is a two card combo. As long as you have 2RRR mana, Vial at 3, and Recruiter, you win.

The question is.. how strong is Recruiter outside of the combo?

EDIT:
Come to think of it.. Village Bell-Ringer keeps the deck entirely in 2 colors so technically you wouldn't absolutely need Vial to avoid needing a blue source. Village Bell-Ringer could also lead to some tricks with Mother of Runes or Mangara, or just combat blow outs... and flash means you don't need Vial to get maximum utility out of him. He also has a huge ass to block Mongoose all day, and won't die to a bolt when you try to equip Jitte/Sword.

phoenix4

01-06-2013, 05:19 PM

So, I've been reading some pages, primarily from Thomas Enevoldsens first post in the thread..
As a regular, the same place as Thomas plays normally, it's awesome to see this deck, "ripping" other decks apart sometimes, but I find myself in a bad situation..

I love this deck, for what it can do, but I'm not a good pilot with the deck, simply because I have realized, that I'm an early game guy...

Reading your posts and talking about the deck with some buddies, it's fairly obvious, that the longer the game, the better the chances are for winning and that's where I fail with the deck :(

I wanna grab this deck up (again) and get good at playing it, but with Thomas as the only (very) good player in the local meta, it's a bit challenging :mad:

So, any advice (other than I start to read the rest of the thread) is much obliged! :)

AggroSteve

01-07-2013, 03:28 AM

ok, if i am talking total crap please correct me

i think playing this deck correctly is all about reading the situation you are in, meaning board state, amount of hand cards you and your opponent have, possible threats that could come up.
i think this matters for this deck even more than for any other deck, because we do not really have a card advantage-"engine", in fact we only have stoneforge mystic, and our equipments that get us card advantage directly, the only other way to get card-advantage is to use the tricks this deck offers, but important is, using them in the right timing, which could be your issue

solving your problem comes with time, and practice
a little advice from my part would be:

only have 2 creatures at a time on the board (max. 3) as they will do sufficient damage over turns as most of them have evasion or get it thanks to swords and mother of runes
try using the mana denial play when the option do do so comes up, as it buys you a lot of time to maybe get the cards you need to finish the game easier
never rush to a win, you might get blown out, patience is what makes you win with this deck

i know that specially the last part will be awkward for someone that plays more aggressively, but try playing more like a midrange-deck, and use your resources only if you really, absolutely need to, if you can hold to a card for 1 more turn you will have 1 more turn with more options which helps this deck a lot

phoenix4

01-07-2013, 03:23 PM

Well, AggroSteve, your arguments made sense :)

Up until now, I've primarily been playing some sort of U/R Burn, Imperial Painter and those kinds of decks, but you can play these decks, without being a very good magic player, 'cause the deck does most of the work for you - in my opinion anyways..

But taking up this deck again, means that I have to learn to play Magic all over again, and I'm both excited and nervous of that fact.

I want to become a better magic player, but some would probably say, that this deck isn't the right one to start with - but hey - I like the deck, i'm gonna sleeve it for the first legacy tournament this year, and I'm gonna play it for more than one month - :P - so more advice is more than welcome, and I will probably ask a lot of questions in this thread - some may seem odd, but I hope i can have some success with the deck :)

1337erhosen

01-07-2013, 10:56 PM

Finished 36th at SCG Columbus with DnT, tournament report coming soon. Long story short: This deck is a ton of fun.

phoenix4

01-08-2013, 12:19 AM

Well, what I've played, it is fun, but fun isnt' the same as winning - in my case anyways :D
So I hope to get a lot better, playing the deck, so fun=winning ;)

attemanden

01-10-2013, 09:50 AM

Anyone got any experience with Basilisk collar? I was thinking that it seemed quite strong on Thalia.

the reason for the card should be vs stronger creatures and mother of runes cant do all the work.

let me hear your opinions.

DalkonCledwin

01-10-2013, 04:25 PM

Complete resistance to Flashfires

why are we suddenly afraid of that card? I mean unless that is being played as an answer to Miracles and Maverick and by proxy us as well, I don't see why that card is actually viable against us?

That being said, if you are going to run a mana base that is proof against Flashfires while still being able to play Death and Taxes, you present yourself as being vulnerable to another threat that this deck is unfortunately very vulnerable to. Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon, and yes, people in my meta have been playing stax variants with at least Magus of the Moon in them. So I probably won't be removing my Plains in their entirety anytime soon. Better to be vulnerable to one fringe card and still playing basics than to be vulnerable to a different fringe card and that completely curb stomps your manabase if you aren't playing any basics at all.

barrozo

01-11-2013, 10:59 AM

why are we suddenly afraid of that card? I mean unless that is being played as an answer to Miracles and Maverick and by proxy us as well, I don't see why that card is actually viable against us?

That being said, if you are going to run a mana base that is proof against Flashfires while still being able to play Death and Taxes, you present yourself as being vulnerable to another threat that this deck is unfortunately very vulnerable to. Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon, and yes, people in my meta have been playing stax variants with at least Magus of the Moon in them. So I probably won't be removing my Plains in their entirety anytime soon. Better to be vulnerable to one fringe card and still playing basics than to be vulnerable to a different fringe card and that completely curb stomps your manabase if you aren't playing any basics at all.

Uh... I'm pretty sure the Flashfires thing was a joke.

DalkonCledwin

01-11-2013, 04:49 PM

Uh... I'm pretty sure the Flashfires thing was a joke.

then how do you explain the no basic lands mana base?

mrjumbo03

01-11-2013, 07:31 PM

DalkonCledwin

01-11-2013, 10:37 PM

^Thomas has been known to play DnT as he has placed a number of times already and he is a very competent player. Looking at the number of players in that tournament, I'm guessing it's a small tourney at a shop where sideboards can be tuned. Knowing this, look at the number of Massacres in the top 8 alone. It's not such a good card if you suddenly can't cast it for free right?

thats a whopping 3 massacres that I could count. Unless you are seeing something I am not. Given that I only saw 3 massacres, that doesn't seem to indicate a significant portion of the meta is geared towards wiping out death and taxes specifically. And if it was, then why play Death and Taxes at all?

Anarky87

01-12-2013, 01:16 PM

I counted 5 Massacres in the T8.

mrjumbo03

01-12-2013, 01:50 PM

Enough about Thomas's funky manabase for that specific tourney. Only he can answer why he did what he did.

Just wanted to share, might be considered a little bit bragging but mainly it's more of me sharing my joy as I finally finished foiling out the deck.

http://imageshack.us/a/img442/6770/img013ym.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img23/8875/img014rt.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img689/390/img015dp.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img5/483/img016pn.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img835/8223/img017k.jpg

Keep on Taxin'! :cool:

dsck

01-12-2013, 02:49 PM

Please tell me you dont play with toploaders on?

Zerog

01-12-2013, 05:20 PM

Please tell me you dont play with toploaders on?

I hope he does. That would be sweet!

I traded a playset Tarmogoyfs for a playset of karakas and i'm currently building this super sweet deck.
How are people feeling about familiar? Can't be very good against ANT really? Been playing ant a lot against mav(which feels like the same matchup) and g1 it's all about the thalia. And g2 it's mostly all about chalices. Don't DNT want to run a few chalices in the board? Goblins do right? And it seems to work pretty good for them.

Zerog

01-12-2013, 05:40 PM

Also. How do people feel about tryingout a few Mirran crusaders in the main? Seems pretty good with all the B/G running around.

DalkonCledwin

01-13-2013, 02:36 AM

Also. How do people feel about tryingout a few Mirran crusaders in the main? Seems pretty good with all the B/G running around.

what would you cut in order to add the mirran crusaders?

tsabo_tavoc

01-13-2013, 03:18 AM

what would you cut in order to add the mirran crusaders?

Probably Serra Avenger. Now the deck has a good number of 2-drops and Vial is aimed at 3, why do we still play her?

1337erhosen

01-13-2013, 04:03 AM

Probably Serra Avenger. Now the deck has a good number of 2-drops and Vial is aimed at 3, why do we still play her?

Because she fills several important roles. She is a very significant way to interact with Delver of Secrets. She has evasion to get through a clogged board state while also playing defense. 2cc fits our curve much better than another 3cc creature. I don't know about you guys, but I like to leave Vial at 2 for as long as possible for Thalia, Avenger, Stoneforge, etc and only pump it to 3 when I get Mangara or Flickerwisp.

DalkonCledwin

01-13-2013, 04:10 AM

Probably Serra Avenger. Now the deck has a good number of 2-drops and Vial is aimed at 3, why do we still play her?

my reason for playing her is Air Superiority.

Also, while I admit, Mirran Crusader is able to deal with many things that Serra Avenger cannot, there are in fact many times when I need a creature that can chump block, but do not have the necessary mana commitment (or the appropriate vial) to cast a Mirran Crusader. In which case Serra Avenger is superior to Mirran Crusader due to costing a single less mana. Additionally I prefer being able to block and kill Tombstalkers with a Sword of Light and Shadow equipped instead of having a useless 2/2 doublestriking pro-black creature sitting on the ground looking up at a menacing 5/5 flying creature unable to interact with it. Same goes for those few occasions when I am able to kill a Griselbrand or similar flying creature vs. reanimator by using the Angel.

Fact is that a flyer has advantages that a ground based creature does not. Especially in a format where the most dangerous creatures are a 5/5 flyer, a 15/15 flyer, and a 7/7 flyer. In fact the only creatures that Mirran Crusader really gives us a massive edge against, is Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. But we really don't need that huge of an advantage against those that we lose our advantage against those select few decks that have flyers.

And yes, I know that Flickerwisp is still in the deck and does fly. But I would rather my flyer have a chance at surviving a Gut Shot now and then...

Because she fills several important roles. She is a very significant way to interact with Delver of Secrets. She has evasion to get through a clogged board state while also playing defense. 2cc fits our curve much better than another 3cc creature. I don't know about you guys, but I like to leave Vial at 2 for as long as possible for Thalia, Avenger, Stoneforge, etc and only pump it to 3 when I get Mangara or Flickerwisp.

I totally agree with this.

1337erhosen

01-13-2013, 08:09 AM

Finally got around to typing this out. SCG Columbus tournament report.

So to start at the beginning:

Picked up the final pieces of DnT in mid-November, promptly piloted it to 3 consecutive money finishes in local events and think I finally found the deck that fits my play style.

Fast Forward to SCG Columbus: Drove a van full of 7 guys from Southeastern MI down to the tournament, none of us play Standard because that format is garbage. We get there few hours before the Legacy Challenge and agree to all enter.

Here’s the list I played day 1:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mangara of Corondor
3 Flickerwisp

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Batterskull

4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Eiganjo Castle
10 Plains

SB:
3 Path to Exile
2 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa’s JItte
3 Enlightened Tutor
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Serenity
1 Rest in Peace

A few things on choices:
Maindeck Batterskull was mainly present for fear of losing early to Burn or Zoo, both of which were well positioned against BUG. Eiganjo Castle was present purely for the Lols. The sideboard is mostly built to beat RUG and Show and Tell, which I played little of: More on that later.

Legacy Challenge:

Round 1: Esper Stoneblade
Of course I play against my friend who rode in my car first round. He starts game 1 with a quick Jitte, I struggle on mana and get behind on board before scooping to an active Jitte. Game 2 is close but an early Mangara nabs his Batterskull and get ground to 5 life before finding a creature to suit up with SoLS and carry that to victory. Game 3 he struggles on mana and I find Waste, Port, and Thalia for the win.
1-0

Round 2: Pox
Game 1 he drops turn 1 Liliana, which was very scary. Luckily I drop turn 1 vial to play around his turn 2 Sinkhole and reset and kill Lily on turn 4 with Flickerwisp (likely my favorite card in the deck). I keep dropping creatures and he draws lands and concedes. Game 2 he boards into major haterade, 3 Abyss, 3 Engineered Plague, 2 Virtue’s Ruin, and combined with 2 maindecked Tabernacles he easily takes games 2 and 3.
1-1

Round 3: Esper Stoneblade:
Played against a player from my local scene, so I knew he was on Stoneblade. Game 1 I get an early Vial and Thalia but he see 4 Swords to Plowshares and without an active Mother I run out of threats while he gets Jitte online. Game 2 I keep a loose hand that is threat light hand with a lot of mana disruption and he fetches all basics. Definitely should have mulliganed seeing as I drew 4 more lands before conceding
1-2

Round 4: One land Belcher
Of course he wins the die roll. Having watched his previous victory, I knew he was on Belcher, so I keep a hand with turn 2 Thalia, which is too slow for 16 Goblins on his turn 2. Game 2 he mulls to 6 and I curve out into Canonist and Thalia, so he quickly scoops. Game 3 he Belchers me on turn 1. Not really sad I lost that one.
1-3

So after not prizing in the Challenge I didn’t feel amazing about my choice for the next day. I knew Belcher and Pox were matches this deck is not supposed to win, but it definitely rattled my confidence. For a bit I considered changing to either Zombies or Merfolk, but having tested those earlier I knew they were not going to be good against the RUG and BUG meta.

So instead of switching decks, I wrote up my decklist and decided on some random 1am impulse changes, including switching out Revokers for Blade Splicers and Batterskull for Sword of Feast and Famine. Then my group proceeded to cube draft until 4am before we decided we couldn’t sleep and made the 5am trek to Waffle House. After some greasy eggs and a cute waitress, we finally crash at 6am.

Wake up at 9:20am, hurriedly pack up our hotel room and literally run to the convention center. My stomach was reasonably upset, but water and small snacks between rounds helped it settle.

Legacy Open:

Round 1: Goblins
My opponent confesses that this is his first Legacy tournament and one of his first times with his deck even before we start. He was a really nice guy but I got Jitte active early both games and he couldn’t recover.
1-0

Round 2: BUG Delver
Game 1 my opponent misplayed and it cost him the game. I landed Sword of Feast and Famine early and when I go to equip he Abrupt Decays my Stoneforge instead of the Sword, so I just play Serra Avenger and ride it to victory. Game 2 I get Vial online and double Wasteland, plow his two threats, and he concedes to Jitte.
2-0

Round 3: Dredge
Game 1 he opens on Gemstone Mine, Faithless Looting and proceeds to win on turn 3. Game 2 is very close, with me curving out into Ethersworn Canonist, which I didn’t realize was so good in this match, and then Jotun Grunt, which just barely nabbed enough Bridges for me to stabilize with Jitte. Game 3 I manage turn 2 Rest in Peace and he has no answers.
3-0

Round 4: Burn
Did not expect to run into Burn in the 3-0 bracket, but he has no answer to turn 1 Mother of Runes which allows Jitte to work its magic. Game 2 he gets mana screwed and I stabilize with equipment.
4-0

Round 5: RUG Delver
My opponent this round was Ben Weinburg, who is apparently a contributor to the mtg community, but I’ve never seen any of his content. Game 1 I keep a loose hand with Mangara and Flickerwisp, but he forces my Vial and I lost to turn 2 blind-flipped Delver. Game 2 he has the Bolt for Mother and double Spell Snare to back up his nimble Mongoose that got huge fast, and I saw no grave hate.
4-1

Round 6: Burn
This round I played against a friend from my local shop who was running really well with Burn in one of his first Legacy tournaments. Fortunately for me he had mana issues both games and Rishadan Port pulled its weight.
5-1

Round 7: Jund
This round my opponent was John Sava, developer of the famous Athens Blue control deck. He opens with Deathrite Shaman and curves into Bloodbraid Elf, Goyf, and double Abrupt Decay, finishing with Liliana. Game 2 is close but he draws a ton of land and he can’t answer Jitte. Game 3 I curve out with the sick draw of Blade Splicer into Flickerwisp and double Serra Avenger off of two Vials. I plow his Deathrite Shaman and win the game on turn 6 with him on 3 lands.
6-1

Round 8: Elves
Going into this round in 7th place had me pretty geeked, as I have never played a win-and-in at such a large tournament. After finalizing that I couldn’t draw in, I sat down with lots of stomach butterflies. Game 1 he opens on Bayou, Deathrite Shaman, so I put him on BUG, only to then be surprised by turn 2 Elvish Visionary. Hoping to choke him on mana, I Wasteland him and plow his Shaman, only to have him play Gaea’s Cradle next turn and combo out on turn 4. Game 2 I side in hate and land turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, which I’m feeling good about until he Natural Orders for Progenitus on turn 3, which I am in no position to answer.
6-2

Round 9: American Faeries
So I went into this round fully expecting to draw, but my opponent would not do so, and as a result I am put on pretty big tilt. This tilt leads to the awful keep of 5 lands 2 Blade Splicer, which was a sad moment for me. Game 2 is close but he gets Jitte active before I do and pulls too far ahead.
6-3

So overall I felt great with this tournament result. My final placing was 36th, but it felt awesome playing my first win and in. In retrospect my chances of beating Elves without Phyrexian Revoker were slim to none, so I don’t have any hard feeling about the match, especially considering he went on to win the whole tournament.

Moving forward, I feel as though the one major change I would make to the archetype would be to find a maindeck replacement for Phyrexian Revoker. The creature is underwhelming in every major matchup besides Miracles, and Pithing Needle out of the boards seems as though it would fill the same purpose while being less vulnerable to Terminus. As for replacing Revoker,, I’m now testing Stillmoon Cavalier, which so far has performed very well. Protection from Abrupt Decay and STP and Batterskull are all awesome qualities.

namrufmot

01-13-2013, 12:31 PM

Zerog

01-13-2013, 07:02 PM

my reason for playing her is Air Superiority.

Also, while I admit, Mirran Crusader is able to deal with many things that Serra Avenger cannot, there are in fact many times when I need a creature that can chump block, but do not have the necessary mana commitment (or the appropriate vial) to cast a Mirran Crusader. In which case Serra Avenger is superior to Mirran Crusader due to costing a single less mana. Additionally I prefer being able to block and kill Tombstalkers with a Sword of Light and Shadow equipped instead of having a useless 2/2 doublestriking pro-black creature sitting on the ground looking up at a menacing 5/5 flying creature unable to interact with it. Same goes for those few occasions when I am able to kill a Griselbrand or similar flying creature vs. reanimator by using the Angel.

Fact is that a flyer has advantages that a ground based creature does not. Especially in a format where the most dangerous creatures are a 5/5 flyer, a 15/15 flyer, and a 7/7 flyer. In fact the only creatures that Mirran Crusader really gives us a massive edge against, is Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary. But we really don't need that huge of an advantage against those that we lose our advantage against those select few decks that have flyers.

And yes, I know that Flickerwisp is still in the deck and does fly. But I would rather my flyer have a chance at surviving a Gut Shot now and then...

A Mirran crusader should usually be able to race a Tombstalker. And in your situation where you have a avenger with a sword. Then you're aldready winning and should really be attacking. Theres still the decay for this "defense" plan of yours. Against delver you still have the swords. As for theGoyf and mongoose(for example), your crusader can stop both of them with ease. But I never said avengers were the card to sideboard out. Familiar builds should throw the birdies out (since theyre essentially only there to hose Belcer and tes).
I wouldn't mind sideboarding out stoneforge and batterskull. If you board in RiP you don't seem to need batterskull that much. (keeping in the jitte seems good tho) Bug will have a hard time against a crusader carrying a jitte (Which you can still tutor up with Enlightend tutor!)

Im totally new to the deck so i might be wrong on some points. But i think i make a good point to at least test mirran crusader(If only in the sideboard).

---------------------------------

I realized i kind of got into the idea of having crusaders in the board instead of main(I don't think tyou have any room left in the board). Which wasn't what i had intended. The avenger seems to be the card to cut(being the only card ever to even be considered being cut). It's hard to say. Avenger is good but it's still just the beater in the deck, and maybe 2 crusaders could work just as well. It's all in teh meta ofc.

Also. If your Vial gets decayed(for example) you won't be able to drop avenger until t4. Crusader hits the board t3.

namrufmot

01-13-2013, 08:22 PM

Can you Vial in the Avenger before turn four? The card says you can't cast it before turn four, but does vialing count as casting?

from Cairo

01-13-2013, 08:46 PM

Can you Vial in the Avenger before turn four? The card says you can't cast it before turn four, but does vialing count as casting?

You can Vial it into play before turn 4. Vial does not cast.

DalkonCledwin

01-14-2013, 08:21 PM

A Mirran crusader should usually be able to race a Tombstalker. And in your situation where you have a avenger with a sword. Then you're aldready winning and should really be attacking.

Um... Avenger has Vigilance, so why wouldn't I be attacking again? As for being able to race Tombstalker with Mirran Crusader, that assumes Tombstalker is the only threat that they have on the table, and that you have something equipped to Mirran Crusader to make its swings more substantial than the Tombstalkers 5 damage. In otherwords 5 > 4 basically.

But I never said avengers were the card to sideboard out. Familiar builds should throw the birdies out (since theyre essentially only there to hose Belcer and tes).

you are right, it wasn't you who said to cut Serra Avenger. It was tsabo_tavoc. As for boarding out the Judge's Familiar... I disagree. The Familiar is super good when combined with Thalia, and good on its own as a turn one play against many decks. I mean, come on, turn 1 on the play against anything with Daze or Force of Will in it, how can you say no to shutting those off (assuming they want to do anything else during their first turn) at least until after your second turn

I wouldn't mind sideboarding out stoneforge and batterskull. If you board in RiP you don't seem to need batterskull that much. (keeping in the jitte seems good tho) Bug will have a hard time against a crusader carrying a jitte (Which you can still tutor up with Enlightend tutor!)

Im totally new to the deck so i might be wrong on some points. But i think i make a good point to at least test mirran crusader(If only in the sideboard).

I think you will find that boarding out Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull will reduce your chances of winning significantly. They are just too good to board out.

I realized i kind of got into the idea of having crusaders in the board instead of main(I don't think tyou have any room left in the board). Which wasn't what i had intended. The avenger seems to be the card to cut(being the only card ever to even be considered being cut). It's hard to say. Avenger is good but it's still just the beater in the deck, and maybe 2 crusaders could work just as well. It's all in teh meta ofc.

Also. If your Vial gets decayed(for example) you won't be able to drop avenger until t4. Crusader hits the board t3.

you do realize that removal is just as likely to hit Mirran Crusader as it is to hit Serra Avenger? In fact having Abrupt Decay hit your vial instead of one of your utility creatures or heck your serra avenger is almost a god send because that means they wasted an abrupt decay on a VIAL instead of one of the cards that actually interacts with them...

Tylert

01-15-2013, 05:17 AM

Blade Splicers are an interesting idea. Flicking them could be a fun trick, but it also ups the mana curve again...

Also, is there really any major drawback to playing E. Castle over a plains? Sure it is a nonbasic, but in a rare pinch you can use to it save Thalia or Managara from getting killed.

There is no real major drawback in playing E.Castle over a plain.
However, most of the burn you will see in Legacy is Lightning bolt and it will not save thalia or Mangara from it.
As it can be wasted, there is therefore no real advantage in playing this card.

kingtk3

01-16-2013, 03:47 AM

DalkonCledwin

01-16-2013, 05:18 AM

Orzhov Charm WB

Instant
Choose one - Return target creature you control and all Auras you control attached to it to their owners' hands; or destroy target creature and you lose life equal to that creature's toughness; or return target creature card with converted mana cost 1 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield

Do you think that can be played in D&T? Sometimes oust has seen play and the charm is way better at removing a creature (or bouncing at least), with the option of recurring mother, stoneforge or mangara. I don't know if it's worth the black splash though...

We have such a high creature density that it really isn't necessary to have creature recursion in our deck. But if Creature recursion is necessary, then why not just add Sword of Light and Shadow back into the deck and maintain our color solidarity instead of turning us into a bad knock off of deadguy ale?

kingtk3

01-16-2013, 05:36 AM

I was thinking to the charm mainly as a removal, the recursion was just added value. In the past oust was used because path to exile is not synergic with the rest of the deck, and the charm is a better option instead of the latter. Needing the black splash kinda disturbes me though.

lebarion

01-16-2013, 06:57 AM

I believe that if we really want to go Wb just because of removal, there's probably better removal in B than Orzhov Charm. I don't think bringing Mom's back once in a while is good enough.

Zerog

01-16-2013, 08:36 AM

Wall of text.

My mistake on the Vigilance, i'll take that.
A few comments on the rebound:
Just because the crusader actually hits for less, doesn't mean he's not gonna race a tombstalker. DnT especially since getting a crusader on the board takes a lot less effort than bringing in a tombstalker(mana denial,them getting BB, we have vial + all the disruption). Our opponent won't be able to steal his mana from us as easy(we don' fetch)

As for the familiar, i'm still mostly talking about the BUG matchup(which is pretty dominating in my local meta). Yes, he can work against counters and pairs well with thalia. But in the case the opponent just lays down deathrites, goyfs and potential other guys(bob to bait a sword, mongoose etc) he can just sit there and judge all he wants. He(or she?) also doesn't help against abrupt decay(not trying to put decay in everything, but it's a pretty popular card now).

Stoneforge: You might be right. I haven't played the deck yet(might get a chance next week), so i'm just speculating.

I'm not so sure about it being a "good" thing losing your vial to decay, since the only real utility card we have without it is mangara.

I appreciate all the comments.

attemanden

01-16-2013, 06:13 PM

Hello.

What's the reason not to play a couple of fetchlands?

1337erhosen

01-17-2013, 07:24 AM

Hello.

What's the reason not to play a couple of fetchlands?

One of the major strengths of this archetype is how stable the manabase is. Adding fetchlands/splashing a color leaves our mana unnecessarily vulnerable to Stifle and opposing Wastelands, and other colors don't really offer the deck enough to make adding this vulnerability worth it. Also, if we were to add black to the deck, Orzhov charm would be the last reason to do so.

DalkonCledwin

01-17-2013, 07:25 AM

I'm not so sure about it being a "good" thing losing your vial to decay, since the only real utility card we have without it is mangara.

I appreciate all the comments.

You must be forgetting Flickerwisp (which ironically can protect your Vial from Abrupt Decay if the Vial is untapped and already on 3), Stoneforge Mystic, and Mother of Runes, oh yeah and Umezawa's Jitte. All four are utility cards. And not one of them is Mangara of Corondor or Aether Vial.

And no problem with the comments.

Hello.

What's the reason not to play a couple of fetchlands?

This deck has a premium of land space, and with only 12 or so spaces for basic lands, removing some of them for more non-basic lands even if those non-basic lands entire purpose is to fetch the basic lands, just isn't worth it. This is especially true if your opponent decides to play a Blood Moon and suddenly your only on color source of mana is whatever basic plains you still have left in your deck. Adding to this general problem are cards such as Price of Progress. This deck is incredibly vulnerable to mana disruption that focuses on non-basic lands and adding more non-basic lands is just not a good idea.

Tylert

01-17-2013, 08:25 AM

About Orzhov Charm:

there are more efficient removal spells like oust / gut shot that can be played instead of it.
The only interresting trick i see in addition to bringing back MoM could be the possibility to retrieve Judge's familliar from the graveyard to counter a spell.

However, adding black to the deck may be very problematic: You'll need to reduce the number of colorless sources or play a non basic heavy manabase and the deck may become very vulnerable to wasteland.

Also Orzhov charm is a non creature spell that cost 2 mana already. it may be too expensive with thalia...

About Fetchlands:

I think that the deck needs a lot of mana to function perfectly. you need mana to tax the opponent (Wasteland is sacced. You need 2 mana to tap an opponent's land), you also need it to pay your own taxes (Stp when thalia is in play), and several of key cards require 2 white sources (That can't be 2 karakas of course). Also Batterskull is 5 mana!!
Adding fetchlands would lower the chances to draw a second white source, and to draw lands. There's a reason why there is 23 lands in this deck. you need them.

ThomasEnevoldsen

01-17-2013, 09:38 AM

I don't think this deck is vulnerable (at all) to opposing mana disruption. It is a rare occasion (read: Karakas is our only white source + we don't have a vial + we don't have a board presence) when we are sad to see our opponent use Wasteland on our lands. In almost all matchups, WE are the ones who want to Wasteland our opponent's. If they waste a Port, then a lot of the time we will have accomplished what the Port was supposed to do and at the same time freeing up our mana. With such a low curve, we can usually get off a threat or two before Wasteland can screw, thus making it unlikely in the long run that we will have mana issues because of that (if you create enough time, you will draw out of it). And this deck is perhaps only behind monored burn and elves in terms of Blood Moon resistance with 9-10 Basic Lands and Vials. That said, I don't think the few percentages of 'draw quality' we get from thinning lands with fetches make up for an increased susceptibility to opposing Stifles and Wastelands. Especially since we are not splashing. While I don't agree entirely that we WANT to draw lands, there is usually a lot of use for them in the game, so flooding is not a common issue because of the high density of 'spell-lands'.

And regarding the Crusader v. Serra Avenger debate, I think the cards are actually very close in value, and that Mirran Crusader could actually work wonders for this deck instead of the Avengers. Certainly the Crusader is preferred to the Angel vs. a Tombstalker, but of course that is not all there is to this discussion. The difference in Mana actually somewhat favors the Crusader in my opinion, as you will usually be able to set up 1WW on turn 3 at the same ratio as WW on turn 4 (no vial). And because Crusader is a much stronger play on 3 than Avenger on 4, I would gladly take that trade. I am just not sure, that we can afford to lose a Vigilant flyer against something like Goblins, which I find is an increasingly difficult matchup if they pack enough artifact hate. And a 12-12 split on 2-drops and 3-drops is only a little worse than 16-8 split (with Avengers) in my opinion, although this is of course all on paper.

On a different note, I really do feel that with the printing of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, the format has become more hostile to D&T, as a lot of what was normally considered 'untouchable' in this deck (Thalia and Vial in particular) can now be dealt with by the Shaman's mana ability or the Decay's versatility, respectively. We have gone from being a favourite to an underdog in a lot of these matchups, I feel, and perhaps Mirran Crusader is a solution.

namrufmot

01-17-2013, 10:10 PM

Went to a local 10 man tourny tonight. We usually have around 15 but it was a slow night. First time playing DnT. There is always a guy that plays burn and a guy that plays gobbos - hence the Kor and Chalice in in the SB. Here is the deck:

Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
1 Judge's Familiar
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

Instants and Sorceries
4 Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard
2 Judge's Familiar
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Kor
3 Cataclysm
1 Manriki

Round 1 - G1. This guy was a real dick. Never wanted to make small talk or discuss anything about the game. He plays a Painter, Tangle Wire, Jace, etc. Mid way through the game I'm smashing him with the Germ and starting to get my Mangara engine going. Out of the blue he does some weird Grindstone crap with the Painter and mills me. I told him "I haven't seen a deck like this" and he goes "No one has". Whatta douche. 0-1

G2. I finally get a Revoker and use it on his Welder. I Wasteland a couple lands and beat face with the Germ and two Moms. 1-1

G3. Slapsdown two Tangle Wires and a Painter along with various other crap. I'm holding a Cataclysm but get stuck with three and in play and a second Karakas in my hand that I can't play. He goes off and wins. Did I say this guy was a prick? 1-2.

Round 2 - G1. Nice kid. He goes off on turn one with a Lotus Petal, Stifle, and that Ggant 12/12 artifact guy. I Swords it and slowly beat him down with critters and usig Mangara to blow up his remaining lands. 1-0.

G2 - Again the kid drops the 12/12 guy on turn two. I go to Swords him and he counters it. He drop a Topor Orb and my Wisps become useless. :( 1-1.

G3 - Thalia, Port, and Mangara do their work I literally blew up 4 Islands with Mangara. :D 2-2.

Round 3 - Bye. :(

So in very limited testing against two a typical decks it did ok. One Plains away from going 2-0 most likely. It was strange but I never got to use Mom's ability, use the Judge, or use any Equipment other than Batterskull. Thalia and Mangara were my two MVPs in the games I won.

The guy that won, however, if my best friend who plays a weird Tezz Affinity with FOWs, Mox Opals, Thopters, Plating, Stoneforges, and Equipment. For fun we played four games and he won every game. I can't handle how fast he drops artifacts. Cataclysm should work but he just sits on a FOW waiting for it. Any idea what else I could do with his deck?

kiblast

01-19-2013, 06:52 PM

Hey guys. I saw some of you wondering about the necessity of a black splash. I would also suggest that B splash gives you access to Spectral Lynx , which right now has incredibly relevant abilities considering that Abrupt Decay and Lightning Bolt are the most played spot removals in the format.

1337erhosen

01-20-2013, 03:05 PM

On a different note, I really do feel that with the printing of Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, the format has become more hostile to D&T, as a lot of what was normally considered 'untouchable' in this deck (Thalia and Vial in particular) can now be dealt with by the Shaman's mana ability or the Decay's versatility, respectively. We have gone from being a favourite to an underdog in a lot of these matchups, I feel, and perhaps Mirran Crusader is a solution.

I would respectfully disagree with that. Our deck is great against Deathrite Shaman because Shaman has no direct impact on the board, so we can pretty much ignore his presence while attacking for the kill. Sure it makes their mana marginally better, but the mana denial package is still very relevant.

Abrupt Decay is definitely not great for us, as it takes out equipment, but many of the BUG decks aren't playing enough removal besides decay. We present too many must-answer threats including equipment, vial, and Thalia. We can still protect our creatures with Flickerwisp and Mother of Runes.

In my experience the BUG match continues to favor DnT.

On the note of Mirran Crusader, a creature I've been replacing Revoker with in the main is Stillmoon Cavalier. Stillmoon still has protection from Black, but instead of being able to interact favorably with Tarmogoyf, it instead trumps:

Swords to Plowshares
Lingering Souls
Batterskull
Knight of the Reliquary
Thalia
Qasali Pridemage
Oblivion Ring
Geist of Saint Traft
Stoneforge Mystic
Delver of Secrets
Snapcaster Mage

goblinsplayer

01-21-2013, 05:26 PM

how do you think death and taxes will do in a meta full of deathrite and combo? Well, some combo

Tempus

01-21-2013, 05:47 PM

Well Combo is hard, as they might race our mana denial plan, but it's doable with Wasteland, Port, Thalia and Revoker on LED/Petal. Also there is the sideboard, where we can play stuff like Rule of Law, Thorn of Amethyst, Chalice, Familiar and Canonist.

Well DRS messes with our Mana denial plan . Wastelands are getting weaker, Thalia is less effective as more creatures are being played and our CA engines (SFM, Equipments, Mangara+Vial+Karakas) all fold to Abrupt Decay and are slow. Mom (and Karakas) protects our creatures, Jötun Grunt messes with DRS and recycles our threats.

Depending on the meta D&T is still viable, but it needs some tuning...

TraxDaMax

01-21-2013, 06:33 PM

With the amount of Deathrite Shaman's running around, Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems pretty good.

goblinsplayer

01-21-2013, 06:54 PM

With the amount of Deathrite Shaman's running around, Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems pretty good.

That is so genius

TraxDaMax

01-21-2013, 07:05 PM

That is so genius

Well, looking through old cards once in a while you find a forgotten treausure. :)

1337erhosen

01-21-2013, 07:38 PM

With the amount of Deathrite Shaman's running around, Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems pretty good.

I would make the argument that a resolved Deathrite Shaman has very little effect on our game plan and is overall a card we should ignore.

Not only that, it's presence in the meta is largely exaggerated. Pulling from the top 16 of the last 3 SCG Opens, we find that Deathrite Shaman only appears in 10 of the 48 lists.

Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems very small and narrow, and Jotun Grunt fills that sideboard slot much better.

TraxDaMax

01-21-2013, 08:10 PM

I would make the argument that a resolved Deathrite Shaman has very little effect on our game plan and is overall a card we should ignore.

Not only that, it's presence in the meta is largely exaggerated. Pulling from the top 16 of the last 3 SCG Opens, we find that Deathrite Shaman only appears in 10 of the 48 lists.

Samourai of the Pale Curtain seems very small and narrow, and Jotun Grunt fills that sideboard slot much better.

How long does Jotun Grunt stay on the battlefield though? With an active shaman you aren' t likely to keep it for long if you play it turn 2.

1337erhosen

01-21-2013, 09:56 PM

How long does Jotun Grunt stay on the battlefield though? With an active shaman you aren' t likely to keep it for long if you play it turn 2.

Several things:

1. The only decks you would realistically play Grunt turn two are Dredge, Reanimator, and Storm.

2. Grunt's purpose isn't to keep all graveyards clear at all times. He's present to erode some of the late game advantage that Shaman can generate, and despite his low mana cost it is often correct to play him out in the mid to late game. Most Deathrite decks play Tarmogoyf, a much more serious threat to us and whom Grunt is already very good against, and the fact that Grunt has splash damage to Deathrite just makes him more appealing.

3. Grunt doesn't die to Lightning Bolt, as where Samauri of the Pale Curtain does, a serious concern when meta-gaming against decks like RUG Delver and Jund.

4. Grunt shoudn't be your only grave hate in the board. Rest in Peace is a one-of in my board and comes in against any deck playing Goyf in addition to two Grunts. Again, I reiterate that Tarmogoyf is a much greater threat than Deathrite Shaman, and our graveyard solutions should be directed at solving Goyf before Shaman.

DalkonCledwin

01-22-2013, 03:45 PM

So I played in the Star City Games Open Series one Sunday at the Fort Worth Convention Center. As can obviously be deduced by my posting the tournament report in this thread, I played a Death and Taxes deck. The list is as follows:

LANDS:
03x Karakas
04x Wasteland
04x Rishadan Port
02x Horizon Canopy
10x Plains

LEGENDARY CREATURES:
3x Mangara of Corondor
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

CREATURES:
4x Flickerwisp
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Judge's Familiar
4x Mother of Runes

SPELLS:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Æther Vial

EQUIPMENT:
1x Batterskull

LEGENDARY EQUIPMENT:
1x Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD:
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Rest in Peace
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Honor of the Pure
1x Oust
1x Gut Shot
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

I played 8 rounds and ended up in the only place that has the privilege of also being a sexual position… 69th place. While that wasn’t high enough to walk away with prize money, I am still proud of myself because I managed to pull off my best performance at such a major tournament over the course of 8+ rounds to date. My standings at the end of the day were 4-2-2.

Round 1 vs. High Tide (1-1-1)
Game 1 I managed to lock my opponent down using Thalia and Judge’s Familiar to keep him from playing much of anything relevant. I proceeded to bring the game home using a Germ Token and Batterskull (complete with new Claarbar custom Germ Token). Game 2 I managed to get relevant hate online, but he was able to play around it using Rebuild the hate in question being Ethersworn Canonist. He proceeded to go off without hindrance. Game 3 I did not get hate out until rather late, however, when he went off he was not able to achieve victory in one round. Thus I was able to get my hate online and proceed to lock him out of the rest of the game, unfortunately this resulted in us going to time and neither of us was willing to concede to the either in the very beginning of the tournament. Therefore we both drew that first round.

Round 2 vs. BUG Control (1-1-1)
This game was a lot harder to follow than the last, but it amounted to a lot of give and take between the two of us. I of course sided in 3 Rest in Peace at the end of game 1, as well as 2 Phyrexian Revokers. I forget what I sided out, but I barely got any of my sided in hate in that match up. I did manage to get the Revokers naming Deathrite Shaman, but not the Rest in Peace's. This game was also a draw.

Round 3 vs. Canadian Threshold (2-0)
Unfortunately for me, I had the opportunity in this game to test my deck against someone who was relatively new to the game. As such I felt like a complete jerk when I proceeded to win against her because I was using my two Rishadan Ports on her to tap down her red sources while she had a Grim Lavamancer in play and untapped, while not explaining to her that she could tap the Grim Lavamancer in response to my activating Rishadan Port. I didn’t explain it to her in the match because at that point in game 2 I was at exactly 4 life and didn’t want a mistake of hers to become my mistake for telling her how to win the game. But at the same time I felt really bad for forcing her to lose the game via ignorance of the timing rules.

Round 4 vs. Combo Elves (2-1)
Someone over in the D&T thread on Salvation suggested that Combo Elves had become a Tier 1 deck due to the inclusion of some card with the word Behemoth in the name… but I think that even if this is the case, well placed removal on the correct creatures, and a proper land management package is still sufficient to deal with this deck. I really had absolutely no problem with this match up, despite any complaints that it is a bad match up for us.

Round 5 vs. UW Cawblade (0-2)
I have said it once, I will say it a thousand times. Blue and White decks are amongst our worst match ups. Or at the very least they are one of my worst match ups. Multiple Terminus', multiple Supreme Verdict's, Jace the Mind Sculptor and any number of ancillary cards makes the UW Miracle and Cawblade decks near unwinnable.

Round 6 vs. Legacy Jund (2-1)
This was an interesting match-up due to the fact that he was actually playing Blood Braid Elf. I had not actually seen that before in Legacy. As such I was quite unprepared for it. However with some well-placed Phyrexian Revokers and a Batterskull I was able to ultimately out-power everything he played including his 5/6 Tarmogoyfs.

Round 7 vs. UW Miracle/Cawblade (2-1)
All the above about the previous Cawblade deck I played is true of this one except that the Pilot of this one wasn't playing at his absolute best. As such I was able to get a Sword of Light and Shadow into play game 3 and basically stall everything he had by either blocking his Germ Token or preventing his other creatures from attacking. It got so bad that he started using his Jace the Mindsculptor as removal instead of lock down because my creatures were immune to all his spot removal. Additionally his mass removal was doing as much damage to his own game plan as it was mine. So we would have ended up in a draw thereby ruining both our chances at the top-8, but he was kind enough to give me the win so that I could move on to the next round with a shot at the top-8 if I won that round.

Round 8 vs. Hightide (0-2)
Boy, those High Tide decks really love me. First round I play one, later on I am sitting front row and center to watch a High Tide Mirror Match (for the love of god whoever paired those two needs to be shown the dictionary definition of brain annurism), and 8th round I am paired against High Tide AGAIN. This time however I am somewhat more prepared to deal with the deck. I lose game 1 readily enough due to the fact that I didn’t draw enough relevant hate fast enough. Though I did get Thalia and Phyrexian Revoker (naming Candelabra of Tawnos) online that game which slowed him down considerably. Game 2 I sided in my 2 spare Revoker and my Ethersworn Canonist. Unfortunately I didn’t side out Swords to Plowshares, instead I sided out Mangara, which was probably what cost me the match. During game 2 I managed to get all my hate online and slow him down considerably. However I did not get the Mother of Runes out to protect Thalia in time to prevent him from hitting her with a Snap, therefore he was able to go off and win that round. This resulted in my loss of that round and subsequent placing outside the prize bracket.