[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Shawon]

FYI, I don't play this deck, but I have a great amount of respect for it, unlike the many scrubs on MWS who embarrass themselves with the deck. I like to brainstorm also, hence me randomly popping in this thread to lend ideas.

Anyway, DavidHernandez, I did a Gatherer search filtering for "legendary white creatures," and the only creature that I found to be potentially useful against Merfolk without being expensive is Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo. After you untap with Opal-Eye, you can block a Merfolk, use its ability on another Merfolk, then bounce with Karakas. That's the best I could come up with. It's too bad neither Magus of the Moat nor Peacekeeper are legendary. You can still self-destruct Peacekeeper, but it would be sweet with Karakas, since you can one-sidedly allow yourself to attack while denying your Merfolk opponent combat every turn.

I'm not endorsing any of these cards to actually be good against Merfolk. Just Brainstorming.

[DavidHernandez]

FYI, I don't play this deck, but I have a great amount of respect for it, unlike the many scrubs on MWS who embarrass themselves with the deck. I like to brainstorm also, hence me randomly popping in this thread to lend ideas.

Anyway, DavidHernandez, I did a Gatherer search filtering for "legendary white creatures," and the only creature that I found to be potentially useful against Merfolk without being expensive is Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo. After you untap with Opal-Eye, you can block a Merfolk, use its ability on another Merfolk, then bounce with Karakas. That's the best I could come up with. It's too bad neither Magus of the Moat nor Peacekeeper are legendary. You can still self-destruct Peacekeeper, but it would be sweet with Karakas, since you can one-sidedly allow yourself to attack while denying your Merfolk opponent combat every turn.

I'm not endorsing any of these cards to actually be good against Merfolk. Just Brainstorming.

Nice. Thanks for taking the time. Yojimbo is interesting too. I know a lot of cards have been tested by the long-time players of this deck, so it's possible these cards have been tried and found wanting, but perhaps they will work for me here.

Dave

[from Cairo]

Sorry to butt in, but why not try Meekstone against Merfolk? Germ tokens still attack, most if not all of your creatures are 2 power or less (Flickerwisp has 3 power, just realized), and you can pump your guys with Jitte counters while still being able to untap.

One thing to consider is that Merrow Reejerey is a main deck out. I think that Meekstone would still be disruptive, but between Reejerey and Mutavault, the Merfolk deck still has options for interacting.

[DavidHernandez]

One thing to consider is that Merrow Reejerey is a main deck out. I think that Meekstone would still be disruptive, but between Reejerey and Mutavault, the Merfolk deck still has options for interacting.

True. Still, that gives Flickerwisp and STP some time along with our other beats. Also, Rishadan Ports can target the Mutavaults if we save them as part of the strategy.

You've played this deck longer than I have...do you think Meekstone is viable?

Dave

[from Cairo]

True. Still, that gives Flickerwisp and STP some time along with our other beats. Also, Rishadan Ports can target the Mutavaults if we save them as part of the strategy.

You've played this deck longer than I have...do you think Meekstone is viable?

Dave

I honestly think our MD beats Merfolk fine. I'd prefer to add some additional removal if looking for a buff against this deck since it would help against Jund as well. Oust or Sunlance are probably the better two. And/or adding the Sword of Fire and Ice to the MD/SB.

Meekstone just has so little application in other matches, and I would feel uncomfortable devoting slots to Merfolk.

[Shawon]

If all else fails and you still want a single card against ol' 'folk, there's always COP/Rune: Blue. (Again, not an endorsement.)

[Tylert]

Fiend hunter seems good vs merfolk.
It's a creature so it can be vialed in to avoid counters.
It takes out a lord, can block if there are no lord in play, and can carry an equipement.

Seems like the one of the best card against them.

[Finn]

Sword of fire/ice has the major problem of only being excellent when you need it least. That is, you do not get to kill a lord unless it is the only one on the battlefield. Jitte is typically better in this role. Remember that you are looking for a card to make their attack phase less profitable until you can take control. Jitte gets counters on defense, especially with Crusaders, which survive no matter what and Thalia who is not quite as good.

Meek stone may win you some games, but Merfolk is able to alpha strike and between Rejerrey and Vial, they have enough ways to circumvent it that the better Merfolk players will probably still beat you.

Wilt leaf Liege is useless.

Cataclysm is pretty good, but only if you have him countering creatures. My experience is that again, the better players will not walk into this, as it is a trap you set. You have to bait the counters and get him to overextend. It's a tricky business considering how explosive Merfolk can be, and often unsuccessful. This is not the answer, though I definitely side mine in.

For my dollar, extra cheap removal edges the matchup in your favor and has wide application in stuff we really need help with (Jund, Elves). I side Oust in against quite a few decks. Oblivion Ring does not count.

[Malakai]

What if you just played like 4x Path to Exile? Wouldn't that buy enough time to hit them with a SoFI?

[DavidHernandez]

What if you just played like 4x Path to Exile? Wouldn't that buy enough time to hit them with a SoFI?

The problem I see with Path to Exile is that it disrupts your own game-plan. You are using Rishadan Ports, Wasteland, Mangara, Flickerwisp, etc. to keep the opponent "taxed" in his mana base. To give him land is counter to part of your win condition. That's why Oust is better. Even Banishing Stroke might be better than Path.

I agree with Finn that Cataclysm is not the best answer either. Baiting a trap is not the best thing to do when you have to give up your win conditions to cast it.

The following is copied from an article written in 5/2011 by Drew Levin. He describes some of the issues in beating Merfolk, and I think these ideas hold water even against Goblins.

"The Problem With Beating Merfolk
source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/21804_Building-A-Legacy---Beating-Merfolk-In-New-Phyrexia.html

...The major problem with the above deck (he was talking about a Tezzeret ThopterSword)—besides its atrocious mana base—is that it still wouldn't beat Merfolk. You can play a bunch of amazing cards in your blue control deck against Merfolk—reusable removal Dark Confidant Thopter Foundry + Sword of the Meek Sword of Fire and Ice—but without a coherent strategy the fish will still get you.

The two major problems that blue control decks have with Merfolk are a lack of inevitability and a shortage of ways to get ahead. When building a deck to beat Merfolk you have to win the short game or the long game. If you can't do either it doesn't matter how good your deck looks against Merfolk. You're going to lose.

Merfolk has inevitability over misbuilt blue decks. Blue decks that rely on blockers instead of a heavy removal suite (see: Natural Order Bant) will get run over by Merrow Reejerey or Lord of Atlantis. You can line up three Tarmogoyfs but if all their Merfolk are 5/5 or 6/6 and they cast a Cursecatcher with three Merrow Reejereys in play you're dead on the spot. They could even just cast a Lord of Atlantis and you'd be dead to that.

Blue decks that rely on damage-based removal are in a pretty tenuous position as well since they aren't really built to go long with a Merfolk deck. In Boston I watched Reid Duke grip a hand of useless Bolts as he got run over by blue 4/4s. If you have damage-based removal you have to cast pretty much every removal spell as soon as you draw it lest it become useless a turn down the line. If they have Aether Vial your Chain Lightning might be a blank from the turn you draw it since they can Vial in a Lord untap Vial in another Lord and cast a third to make a trio of 4/4s.

Blue decks that rely on guaranteed removal fare a little better than the others against Merfolk but they're still behind. I played Team America for a month on the Open Series and lost several close matches to Merfolk. The problem with black removal is that it's all one-for-one which raises the necessity of having a way to get ahead on cards. Gerry of course figured out that Dark Confidant was a much better strategy than Tombstalker against Merfolk and Top 8ed Dallas because of that realization. Meanwhile I lost to Scott Barrentine's Merfolk because I still hadn't figured out how to build my deck.

The actual way that Team America would end up losing to Merfolk is that they would cast a Silvergill Adept and then I'd lose. I mean it took a little bit longer than that but that was the first domino. Once they had a free 2/1 against a deck of one-for-ones it was only a matter of time before I drew one more land than they did and they had a two-card advantage on me. If I didn't draw an extra land they could just Wasteland me off of my colored sources and keep me from playing my spells. Either way their innocuous 2/1 was my real downfall.

Against blue decks that rely heavily on one-for-one-ing aggressive decks it is essential to have ways of getting ahead on cards. Hymn to Tourach sort of counts but if they ever really care about it they'll probably Daze or Cursecatcher it. In the aforementioned misbuilt blue control deck Dark Confidant was a nod to “getting ahead” but in real games the deck would probably get Wastelanded off of the mana to cast all of the spells it was flipping off of Dark Confidant.

Cat Zoo is the perfect example of how to build a deck to beat Merfolk. It has 10-12 removal spells large creatures very early in the game a source of card advantage in Grim Lavamancer and many ways to keep Grim Lavamancer active. It doesn't want to go long with Merfolk but it doesn't have to—it's a very threat-dense deck with a consistent mana base and at least fifteen cards that kill their creatures.

The reason why my Charlotte deck beat Merfolk on the other hand was that it couldn't win the short game but rarely lost the long game. In a format as big as Legacy there are all sorts of resource wars that are rarely fought. Very few people choose their deck based on an ability to get an Emrakul off of the board but the Emrakul player knows what decks have that capability. In a similar vein Merfolk can't beat an Ensnaring Bridge. Some lists play Energy Flux or Echoing Truth in the sideboard but I have never seen Merfolk win a game where its opponent resolved an Ensnaring Bridge.

The problem with this strategy is that it loses a bit with the addition of Mental Misstep. If our plan is to find and resolve Ensnaring Bridge while Merfolk has Mental Misstep our Enlightened Tutors might as well have gigantic bull's-eyes on them. My strategy of going up to three Ensnaring Bridges against Merfolk and other non-green aggressive decks will have to become the norm if a deck like this is to survive in the new metagame. Of course there are other cards that Mental Misstep makes even more appealing than Ensnaring Bridge…"

Obviously, Mental Misstep is not an issue anymore, and there are the same problems in resolving an Ensnaring Bridge as there are resolving a Meekstone or anything non-creature based.

A couple of thoughts from friends of mine in a brainstorming session included Magus of the Moat so it could be Vial'd in. My problems with this are: 1: it will be turn 5 before you can Vial him, and 2: Only your Flickerwisps fly. That being said, a resolved Magus would give you the time you need to get a Mangara lock. I suppose the D&T player could adopt a strategy of more fliers using Serra Avengers and Judge's Familar, but this would be dependent on the local meta and might not work at bigger tourney's. Ghostly Prison was mentioned by 3 out of 4 of these players.

In fact, Windborn Muse might be better than Magus of the Moat and Ghostly Prison because of all its attributes. I don't like the casting cost but maybe it can be worked around if other cards slow the opponent. Is it viable?

This discussion is very helpful for me.

Dave

[AlbyLegacy]

ok guys I am new at playing Death and Taxes.

I have played a lot of Maverick and Goblins.

I been playing the deck for a month now and I decided to splash green.

4 Plains
2 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith

24 lands


4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mangara of Corondor

26 creatures


4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

10 other spells


play testing the deck I had a lot of issues with goblins, merfolk, zoo, and affinity. basically faster agro decks.

VS Storm , Pox , Enchantress , and even Burn the games where pretty easy to win.

so I decided to add Green for Knight of the Reliquary and Qasali Pridemage. my mana base I am still feeling a little shaky about.

now I have no issues with the faster agro decks. VS Merfolk the Pridemage hits the vials and kight gets out of control to fast for them along with maze I have noticed.

VS Zoo its still a hard one but now having a huge knight slows them down for me to be able to bring down a Batterskull or Jitte to steal the games.

VS Affinity well Pridemage is amazing kight gets the maze and can wasteland them out the game with port back up.

The decks I felt already favored me felt like they got better. I also played a UWR Delver deck and did not really see a issue and felt like a easy match up.

Elves always hard with no sideboard.

so I was asking for a little help. To know if the changes I made are worth it. they seem to work for me, but again I have not played Death and Taxes for a long time and feel I might still be playing it a

little like Maverick with Vials and ports, Also if I can get some of the benefits of not adding green. thanks

[Kpicco]

I may be just arguing semantics, and I may even be wrong, but when you try splash green + make the Karakas count go anywhere lower than 3, you are playing a strictly worse version of Maverick.

To be fair, I'm not arguing that your list is bad (I've never played with or against it). I always wanted maverick to be more like D&T: Vials+Ports+Extra Karakases - so please, make something happen. ^_^

[Fry]

I personally thing that once you start going with KotR and Pridemage's you're moving toward Maverick, and I believe strongly that you're there when there is only 1 Mangara, no Flickerwisp, and 1 Karakas.

[AlbyLegacy]

Fair enough. I been playing it and it seems really good. I'll keep you guys up dated. Thanks

[Finn]

Mav attracts a lot of players due to the clear power of its cards. It's harder to see the benefits of the more controllish choices in DnT, but you lose a lot without Flickerwisps and Ports too. You have the Ports now but you can't really keep them in that deck. It's hard to say goodbye to the power of splash colors but that lack of discipline is why this deck exists.

[Zombie]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26460_Gindy-vs-McDarby-White-Weenie-vs-UR-Delver.html

...

Can't the please for the love of god call the deck by it's correct name? WW is traditionally aggro, this is hardcore control with a side of haterade.

[AlbyLegacy]

Mav attracts a lot of players due to the clear power of its cards. It's harder to see the benefits of the more controllish choices in DnT, but you lose a lot without Flickerwisps and Ports too. You have the Ports now but you can't really keep them in that deck. It's hard to say goodbye to the power of splash colors but that lack of discipline is why this deck exists.

i agree with you 100% now that i been playing the deck more. the ports just cant support a 2 color deck like this. i have decided to just separete the 2 decks. Maverick is Maverick and DandT is DandT. THANK FOR THWE HELP GUYS!

[Oreia]

Hey guys, last sunday i played DnT at a Legacy Regional here in Brazil and managed to win it!
here is my list for reference:

// Lands
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [MR] Ancient Den

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
1 [ISD] Fiend Hunter
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 [DS] Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege

I went 4-2 in the Swiss(Losing only to TES and Jund) and then went straight 3-0 in the top 8!

[Finn]

Congratulations Oreia. Won't you post us a full report?

I like the Ancient Den tech with Enlightened Tutor. I think a lot of people have considered it, but I have never seen anyone actually follow through, so I am glad you did.

[andrebonotto]

Hey guys, last sunday i played DnT at a Legacy Regional here in Brazil and managed to win it!
(...)


Hey Bruno, congrats!

I read your report at the brazilian forum - LigaMagic (http://www.ligamagic.com.br/?view=forum/mensagem&id=102960).

I didn't know you frequented this forum too, lol...

See you,

- André

[OneBigSquirrelGod]

Hey Bruno, congrats!

I read your report at the brazilian forum - LigaMagic (http://www.ligamagic.com.br/?view=forum/mensagem&id=102960).

I didn't know you frequented this forum too, lol...

See you,

- André

Now if only that was written in a language I could read :( - even the google translator made no sense of it.

[andrebonotto]

Heh, I have to admit that by the one hand this brazilian forum's writing tools lack a little of "formatting options"; and by other hand, users of the forum sometimes get used to somewhat "rough sketch" texts , lol. :laugh:

[Oreia]

I'm really happy that you guys are happy for me! By the way, Andr, you owe me a rematch! That turn 3 Natural Order followed by a wirewood simbiote was not fair! hahaha

I'll start my report in the most simple way i can imagine..... describing all the matchups! hahahahaha

Round 1 - Goblins
G1 I knew he was playing Gobbos,so i mull'd to a hand of Mother of Runes, SFM and Ports(i was on the play), he thought i was playing High Tide as the time we faced each other before and he couldn't be more wrong! I could beat him down with Batterskull plus a beatstick killer(Mirran carrying a Jitte!)

SB - In + 1 Path to Exile , +1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Wilt-Leaf Liege(In fear of E. plague)
Out - 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
G2 We both kept a Waste heavy hand, and i sealed the land attrition with a topdecked vial that ride me to victory after he Krosan Griped my first Jitte and i topdecked a second one.

Round 2 - Shardless Bug

G1 - I knew he was on Shardless bug because we always play together at our local store, so i kept a Vial, MOM, Thalia Mirran hand(pretty god hand, right?) and my ports did the rest of the job.

SB - In + 2 Rest in Peace + 1 Sword of Feast and Famine + 2 Wilt-Leafe Liege + 1 Path to Exile
Out - 2 Aven Mindcensor - 2 Mangara of Corondor(Too slow against E, plague i knew he was bringing in, aside with the Golgari charm of course) , - 1 Flickerwisp(i hate when i have to side out this guy, but i couldn't think in anything better at the momment) - 1 SFM

G2 hw crushed me with a pair of Shardless agent that cascaded into Goyfs while casting E. Plague for Human(at least it shrinked the Shardless Agent)

G3 - Almost a replay of G1, but this time i got to equip Mirran with the amazing Sword of Double Discard double port!

Round 3 Jund

G1 Got crushed by a Grim Lavamancer i could have stped, exept for the fact that he Hymned away both of my STPs ¬¬ ...
SB : The same as Round 2

G2 I mulled to 5 and got double Seized + Goyf to seal the deal.

Round 4 ANT
G1, Nice, Ant..... of course he won the die roll, of course he knew i was on DnT and of course i got Therapyed turn 1 discarding my two thalias, wich won him the game.

SB In +2 E. Tutors + 1 Gafdigger's Cage(i know, it sucks, but it's a turn 1 hate) +2 Canonists +1 Sword of Feast and Famine +1 Rest in peace
Out -4 STP - 2 Mangara -1 Fiend Hunter

G2 I got to cast both my Thalia and Canonist, which got pyroclasmed away, but i menaged to topdeck another canonist to win with a equiped Jitte.

G3 He therapyed me for Thalia on turn 1(i had 2 Canonists) o topdecked the Thalia, played a land and passed, and the game ended on turn 2(whis turn 2, he crushed my with Iggy loop).

Round 5 Junk
G1 He casted EVERY discard card in his deck and i was dead to a pair of goyfs equiped with jittes.

SB See round 2 and 3

G2 I crushed him with my amazing vial with 3 Counters Flickering his lands and porting the remaning, he cast only 1 spell the whole game.

G3 He starting by fetching a Scrubland with a marsh flats, and then.... he noticed he fetched the wrong color and was dead to my Thalia + Liege + Porting his only Green source(a dryad arbor)

Round 6, the though one! I was the 13th on the standings and needed a 2-0 victory to pass as the 8th seed! Everything was fun and happy until i sit to play and face my opponent, which was playing ANT....
G1 I didn't know if he knew i was on DnT, but i mulled to a Hand of double thalia plus Ports........ Well, i guess that was good enough since the only spells he casted the whole game was a pair of Brainstorms.

SB See round 4

G2 , I need to win this one, he is on the play, i'm the underdog, but i know something nobody knows about magic.... EVERY COMBO PLAYER UNDERESTIMATE THE NON-FOW DECK! I use this as my advantage, he start by therapying me, naming thalia(after i mulled to 5, and he hit 2), but, fortunately for me, he kepth a slow/heavy removal hand and couldn't combo too fast, i found a couple of ports that REALLY slowed him down until i topdecked the glamorous MARIA DO BAIRO(search for this Mexican Soap Opera, the glamorous Thalia) and he conceded, unable to combo with a Thalia and double port into play.

I finally menaged to make my first Legacy Regional top 8, i was quite happy, but knew i had plenty of work ahead!

As i thought, with my 2-0 victory in the last round i menaged to pass as the 8th seed, which means i was drawing every game of the top 8!
Quarterfinals: Dredge, i mulled to 5, with a hand of Thalia and MoM, of coursed the crushed me on turn 3 or 4.

SB In +1 grafdigger's Cage + 2 E.Tutor +1 Jitte +2 Rest in peace + 1 Sword of Light and Shadow(to make my attackers pass by his blockers)

G2 I kepth a hand of Thalia, RIP , E Tutor, Karakas, Plains double Mirran, I casted E tutor on turn 1, to make sure his SB wasen't going to be effective against 2 RIPS, he blew the first one and after i casted the second one and the Thalia he couldn't cast anything.

G3 I mulled to 5 and cast Cage on turn 1, which sealed the deal after a topdecked a thalia(plus port) on turno 2.

Semifinals : Esper Deathblade(a friend of mine that had just beat Bant Enchantress)

G1 He made the first mistake of the match by playing a Jace and passing without activating(he was REALLY nervous for being on the semifinals), this game i made the MOST AMAZING FLICKERWHISP PLAY EVER! he adctivated his SFM to put his jitte into play(while mine was equiped to my mirran), i, in response, activated the vial to put Flickerwhisp, Flicker my Jitte, and then Axile his with my Mangara, all i can say was that he was pretty nervous at this time!

SB IN + 1 Sword of Light and Shadow + 1 Jitte + 1 Path +1 O-Ring
Out 2 Aven Mindcensor( didn't really care about his SFM at this time) -1 Mirran Crusader - 1 Fiend Hunter(this was the match i was most unsure of my sidebord decisions =[)

G2 i kept a One Lander with vial and MOM, he crushed EVERY VIAL I PLAYED(i played 2) and then Supreme Verdict my 3 MOMs, after that he cast Geist and Bob.... i conceded on the spot.

G3, i played vial T1, port turn 2, and taped his fetch at the EOT, he left his fetch uncracked and tapped until i wastelanded that fetch(achievement unlocked haha), many turns later i finally locked all his permanents with mangara and pinging him for the win)!

Finals Shardless Bug, since he knew i was pretty good at playing this match, and thought the match was favorable for me, he conceded and i was claimed Legacy Regional Champion!

That's it guys, i hope you like my mini-bible-report, and sorry for the enourmous post!

And, for the things that i would change in the deck: + 1 Karakas - 1 Plains(due the new Legendary rules) + 4 Rishadan Port + 4 Foil Rishadan Port(the foil one taps two lands, of course!)

[mrjumbo03]

^The Deathblade player in the semis should've just chosen to not put the jitte into play when you flickered yours. Anyway congrats on the finish!:)

[DavidHernandez]

Wow! I would love to see a meta like that! our last tournament had 4 Dredge, 2 reanimator, 2 Omni Tell, 2 Sneak Show, 1 RUG Delver, 1 Jund, 1 Deathblade, 3 Goblins, 2 Merfolk, and some random other decks.

Congrats on your win!

[rei4u2005]

Sword of fire/ice has the major problem of only being excellent when you need it least. That is, you do not get to kill a lord unless it is the only one on the battlefield. Jitte is typically better in this role. Remember that you are looking for a card to make their attack phase less profitable until you can take control. Jitte gets counters on defense, especially with Crusaders, which survive no matter what and Thalia who is not quite as good.

Meek stone may win you some games, but Merfolk is able to alpha strike and between Rejerrey and Vial, they have enough ways to circumvent it that the better Merfolk players will probably still beat you.

Wilt leaf Liege is useless.

Cataclysm is pretty good, but only if you have him countering creatures. My experience is that again, the better players will not walk into this, as it is a trap you set. You have to bait the counters and get him to overextend. It's a tricky business considering how explosive Merfolk can be, and often unsuccessful. This is not the answer, though I definitely side mine in.

For my dollar, extra cheap removal edges the matchup in your favor and has wide application in stuff we really need help with (Jund, Elves). I side Oust in against quite a few decks. Oblivion Ring does not count.

How do you SB against Kira Great Glass Spinner. I hate it's counter first spell so I can not Stp That guy right away

[mrjumbo03]

How do you SB against Kira Great Glass Spinner. I hate it's counter first spell so I can not Stp That guy right away

^Just use Karakas on it first.

[Luca Grease]

How do you SB against Kira Great Glass Spinner. I hate it's counter first spell so I can not Stp That guy right away

Just bounce her with Karakas first. That will trigger its ability, clearing the way for a StP. You can also use Flickerwisp, Mangara, or Jitte counters. I really don't think we need dedicated SB cards for her.

EDIT: someone beat me to it...

[Oreia]

^The Deathblade player in the semis should've just chosen to not put the jitte into play when you flickered yours. Anyway congrats on the finish!:)

For sure! But nowadays people forget this little interactions, like Activations SFM without having an equipment just to bait a stifle or Vendilion Clique, the same goes to Activating vial when you don't plan on putting a creature into play. Anyways, thank you very much guys!

[andrebonotto]

(...) By the way, André, you owe me a rematch! That turn 3 Natural Order followed by a wirewood simbiote was not fair! hahaha (...)


For sure! I certainly would appreciate another opportunity to practice against DnT - and a second chance to not make many gross misplays as I did!

In the end I benefited from that inherent principle to our beloved cardgame: "sometimes it's better to be lucky, than be good", haha.

See you,

[phoenix4]

Hey y'all ;)

This is my second time, I'm sleeving up this deck (Had financial problems, damn that to hell, since I was having a blast with it) But my main looks like this:

Lands:
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
10x Plains

Creatures:
2x Mangara of Corondor
4x Mother of Runes
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Flickerwisp
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Fiend Hunter

Other spells:
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gut Shot
2x Wilf-Leaf Liege
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Rest in Peace

I took it to our local tourney last tuesday, and since it's been a while, I was kinda rusty, but never the less did I manage to win against 12-post and being 1-2 turns from winning over another 12-post deck..

But the sideboarding tech... That sucks.. The MB is so strong against nearly all other decks, that I'm having trouble, deciding what to take out :P Any help guys? :)

[beebles]

Hey y'all ;)

This is my second time, I'm sleeving up this deck (Had financial problems, damn that to hell, since I was having a blast with it) But my main looks like this:

Lands:
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
10x Plains

Creatures:
2x Mangara of Corondor
4x Mother of Runes
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Flickerwisp
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Fiend Hunter

Other spells:
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial

Sideboard:
1x Pithing Needle
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Gut Shot
2x Wilf-Leaf Liege
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Rest in Peace

I took it to our local tourney last tuesday, and since it's been a while, I was kinda rusty, but never the less did I manage to win against 12-post and being 1-2 turns from winning over another 12-post deck..

But the sideboarding tech... That sucks.. The MB is so strong against nearly all other decks, that I'm having trouble, deciding what to take out :P Any help guys? :)

Are you having trouble against 12 post or decks in general?

Against 12 post I would board in the Needle, Relic Warder, Thorn and 2 Orings board out like 2 STP 1 Fiend Hunter, 1 Jitte, 1 Stoneforge or something like that. Actually mother of ruins is probably pretty bad too. Maybe cut them for Cannonists and Wilt Leaf lieges too.

[Finn]

Yes. Mother of Runes is weak against 12 Post. Cataclysm and Aven Mindcensor are probably the strongest tools we have against that deck.

[feline]

Wow, deck to beat, I did not see that coming. Congrats Death and Taxes, that is awesome!

[monovfox]

Wow, deck to beat, I did not see that coming. Congrats Death and Taxes, that is awesome!

I've been stalking this forum for weeks to see this. Even better, Blade Control is not a deck to beat for 1 month for the first time in years.

It's sad to see the deck grow up. I haven only been with it for 9 months, but I am very sad to see it become mainstream, especially when I see bad players playing the deck with mindcensor in it.

[Fry]

I suppose that my favorite Legacy deck is a DTB! That's pretty cool... Weird, I've now played a deck that is in this section... That'll take some getting used to!

[Jungian Thing]

Congratulations Finn. Another DTB!

[dave8]

I've been stalking this forum for weeks to see this. Even better, Blade Control is not a deck to beat for 1 month for the first time in years.

It's sad to see the deck grow up. I haven only been with it for 9 months, but I am very sad to see it become mainstream, especially when I see bad players playing the deck with mindcensor in it.

You think that mindcensor does not belong to this deck?

[monovfox]

You think that mindcensor does not belong to this deck?

Correct. Maverick can play it, we cannot.

[dave8]

Correct. Maverick can play it, we cannot.

why?

[monovfox]

why?

Manabases are greedy enough that whatever fetchland your opponent uses, will hit a land within the top 4 cards. Deathrite shaman fixes mana well enough, that your turn 3 aven mindcensor means nothing.

Maverick can play this thing on turn 2, if it's on the play. It's slightly better there, but I don't think it warrants running at all.

In a format where nobody runs basics, Mindcensor proves to be inneffective, contrary to popular belief. If you really some hate for fetchlands, don't play this deck. If you want some hate for dual lands, then play this deck.

[dave8]

Manabases are greedy enough that whatever fetchland your opponent uses, will hit a land within the top 4 cards. Deathrite shaman fixes mana well enough, that your turn 3 aven mindcensor means nothing.

Maverick can play this thing on turn 2, if it's on the play. It's slightly better there, but I don't think it warrants running at all.

In a format where nobody runs basics, Mindcensor proves to be inneffective, contrary to popular belief.

Yes I see your point but he has some other pros.
He stops cards like Infernal Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith or Natural Order etc.

[monovfox]

Yes I see your point but he has some other pros.
He stops cards like Infernal Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith or Natural Order etc.

Yes, because those aren't coming down a turn earlier. Also, infernal tutor comes in WAYYYYYYY before mindcensor (out of TES). GSZ is legitimate, but they run a lot of creatures, so don't go expecting this card to miss anytime soon (but I do agree, it's at its best here).

natural order:

turn 1: Elf

Turn 2: 3 more elves

turn 3 NO-PRO or craterhoof, I win.

The best part about playing against elves is that they side abrupt decays against us, so then we are reallllly screwed.

Whenever I see a player maindeck mindcensor, I die a little-bit inside.

[cheerios]

Congrats on making DTB. Expect more hate now!

[TiMeWaLk]

I've been stalking this forum for weeks to see this. Even better, Blade Control is not a deck to beat for 1 month for the first time in years.

It's sad to see the deck grow up. I haven only been with it for 9 months, but I am very sad to see it become mainstream, especially when I see bad players playing the deck with mindcensor in it.

The GP Strasbourg winner was such a terrible player...

[Jungian Thing]

I've been stalking this forum for weeks to see this. Even better, Blade Control is not a deck to beat for 1 month for the first time in years.

It's sad to see the deck grow up. I haven only been with it for 9 months, but I am very sad to see it become mainstream, especially when I see bad players playing the deck with mindcensor in it.

I know you are being wistfully romantic but have to disagree with this.

1. Lack of popularity is not a proxy for exclusivity. Or at least it is a very poor substitute. If the deck becomes mainstream it is the result of the hard work that you and others have put into making the deck good. It is a compliment if others want to play it and a validation of your's and my belief in the strength of the deck. Then again, let's high five when this has haunted the DTB forum for a number of months. I can't help but wonder if the deck exists as a response to the legacy meta and should that meta become more aware/prepared then DnT becomes a glass canon! Only time will tell.

2, Aven Mindcensor occupies what is widely viewed as the top two open slots. It is a consensus decision that leads to it occupying these but that does not make it a must. In addition to the tutor impact (which isn't relevant to all decks), it flies and with the removal of Serra Avenger for Mirran Crusader this is also important. New players can hardly be blamed for either being unaware of the subtle debate or lacking the confidence to make variations (the DTB has Mindcensors in it), they have enough to deal with with the intricacies of the deck!

[monovfox]

The GP Strasbourg winner was such a terrible player...

Is that sarcasm I hear?

I don't trust pros when it comes to MY deck (well most pros). Enevoldsen and I play the deck differently. The only "pro" I trust is From Cairo (Ben Nash). I toyed with mindcensor, but ultimately found it irrelevant/lacking in what the deck needed. The deck needs the 4th flickerwisp in a metagame full of shenanigans (*cough* Abrupt Decay + Deathrite *Cough*) to protect our vials and the such. The deck also needs a card that screams "fuck you" to every Tarmogoyf Llover and their mother, hence why I maindecked a singleton rest in peace. These cards have done more for me than any number of aven mindcensors combined.

And to be frank, I've been told on multiple occasions that I play about at the same level as he does.

[lordofthepit]

It's sad to see the deck grow up. I haven only been with it for 9 months, but I am very sad to see it become mainstream, especially when I see bad players playing the deck with mindcensor in it.

What's wrong with Mindcensor?

[monovfox]

What's wrong with Mindcensor?

I refer you to the posts above.

[lordofthepit]

I don't trust pros when it comes to MY deck (well most pros). Enevoldsen and I play the deck differently. The only "pro" I trust is From Cairo (Ben Nash). I toyed with mindcensor, but ultimately found it irrelevant/lacking in what the deck needed. The deck needs the 4th flickerwisp in a metagame full of shenanigans (*cough* Abrupt Decay + Deathrite *Cough*) to protect our vials and the such. The deck also needs a card that screams "fuck you" to every Tarmogoyf Llover and their mother, hence why I maindecked a singleton rest in peace. These cards have done more for me than any number of aven mindcensors combined.

And to be frank, I've been told on multiple occasions that I play about at the same level as he does.

Pretty sure that from Cairo runs Aven Mindcensor.

And I highly doubt you play anywhere near as well as Enevoldsen. I don't mean this as an insult.

[monovfox]

Pretty sure that from Cairo runs Aven Mindcensor.

And I highly doubt you play anywhere near as well as Enevoldsen. I don't mean this as an insult.

Last time I checked, Cairo does not. Nor would I let that alter my opinion on mindcensor. The one time I wanted to run it I ha food poisoning and was on tilt.

I'm nowhere as good an enesvoldsen when it comes to playing his version of the deck. Likewise, he would have trouble playing my version.

[TiMeWaLk]

Is that sarcasm I hear?

I don't trust pros when it comes to MY deck (well most pros). Enevoldsen and I play the deck differently. The only "pro" I trust is From Cairo (Ben Nash). I toyed with mindcensor, but ultimately found it irrelevant/lacking in what the deck needed. The deck needs the 4th flickerwisp in a metagame full of shenanigans (*cough* Abrupt Decay + Deathrite *Cough*) to protect our vials and the such. The deck also needs a card that screams "fuck you" to every Tarmogoyf Llover and their mother, hence why I maindecked a singleton rest in peace. These cards have done more for me than any number of aven mindcensors combined.

And to be frank, I've been told on multiple occasions that I play about at the same level as he does.

That you read, yes...

I just tried to make you realize how absurd it is to qualify somebody of being a bad player just because he/she runs a card you do not like. Nothing more.

[lordofthepit]

Last time I checked, Cairo does not. Nor would I let that alter my opinion on mindcensor. The one time I wanted to run it I ha food poisoning and was on tilt.

I'm nowhere as good an enesvoldsen when it comes to playing his version of the deck. Likewise, he would have trouble playing my version.

I played against him at an SCG Open in April. He definitely played a Mindcensor against me. I can't say anything about his decklist since then, but I know for sure that he, Enevoldsen, and Bonde are not bad players (regardless of their deck choices).

[Tylert]

Glad to see the deck i play since 3 years being in the deck to beat section :p

[Finn]

Oh heck. I shall have to work on getting a respectable OP now. These are the kinds of problems we all want to have I suppose, but someone please tell me why the BB code for this site and Salvation must be at odds.

@Aven Mindcensor: I can't completely decide whether I like it in the main or not. I have always had a relatively high amount of combo hate, so my perspective is not one of "Need Moar h8!" Rather, I use it as a catch-all backup hate card. I keep cutting it from the main simply because I do not like having so many high cost cards in my opening seven (amongst the other reasons along the lines with what Monovfox has said). I have come to terms with the fact that Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay have permanently dealt BGx decks into the top tier. With this comes the inexorable shift from Serra Avenger to Mirran Crusader. Unfortunately, that brings with it a higher number of 3 mana creatures. This bunch-up at three is a mixed bag as long as you have an active Vial (at 3, of course) since it improves the deck while hindering it. But it only diminishes the deck when your Vial is absent. It is a hard line to walk, but I have found that having a Vial too high is a lesser problem than having uncastable creatures in your hand because they cost too much. I maintain that it is a sideboard card.

Along those same lines...I know that TE has a lot of influence in how the deck is headed since winning GP Strasbourg. He should. But it is unwise to simply follow a design that worked at one event and consider it gospel. In this very thread, TE himself advocated having only 4x of creature cards in the deck at the exclusion of everything else not so long ago, and he was already experienced with the deck at that time. His position has changed 180 degrees since then. There are a lot of judgement calls to be made with this deck. I know exactly what he is shooting for with the singleton Fiend Hunter. But a single, untutorable card will be completely immaterial in most games. I have been experimenting with that slot myself, and I frequently change it to suit my metagame (lots of D&T hate). Find what works for you.

[Zombie]

I thought I was hallucinating when I saw this here. Good job guys. *thumbsup*

[phoenix4]

Wether or not Aven Mindcensor should be in the deck or not.... That's a discussion that could continue for the next 3-4 years... Everyone, who plays this deck, wants different control elements to support their particular play style.... Thomas and Michael did a good job in Strasbourg, and the meta shifts accordingly.. I sleeved this deck, looking at Thomas' list from the latest SCG open he played in, and it is potent for sure, but I want to make changes to it as well, so what...

I'm not a fan of the censor, 'cause it only has 1 toughness, but the ability it provides makes up for the lack of toughness. :)

I'm interested in fitting 3-4 Leonin Arbiter into the deck, as an active Vial on 2, is more than reachable in most MU's, and hitting the OP with a payment of 2, for fetching, activating DRS, Jace TMS and such.... I feel, is a powerful contribution to taxing the OP out of the game, but I'm interested in your oppinion on the Arbiter? :)

[from Cairo]

Pretty sure that from Cairo runs Aven Mindcensor...

...I played against him at an SCG Open in April. He definitely played a Mindcensor against me. I can't say anything about his decklist since then, but I know for sure that he, Enevoldsen, and Bonde are not bad players (regardless of their deck choices).

This is true I was using the Team Rocket list at the last SCG I attended in April.


Last time I checked, Cairo does not.

Also true the more recent versions of the deck that I'd discussed with Clark did not include Aven Mindcensor. I wasn't thrilled with this card mainly due to the point made, that Mindcensor's 3cc often leaves him coming down a turn late. I had been experimenting with Ethersworn Canonists main, to attack the upswing in OmniTell and while it doesn't cripple Elves' NO, it does curb their ability to deploy several creatures in the early turns and turns off Glimpse.

[Fry]

When I originally made the deck myself I didn't have any Enlightened Tutors, and with that being the case when Scars came out I jumped on playing the Leonin Arbiters. When I did get my set of E Tutors and tried them out, I decided that I loved the Arbiter too much to cut them and play the Tutor board with efficiency (which would mean no Arbiter). I know that for some not playing the Tutor package is blasphemy, but I've come to love the Arbiter. The only cards that I play in my deck that search are the set of Stoneforge Mystics and that's perfectly fine by me. The Arbiter screws with the vast majority of decks, most have fetch lands and/or tutors of some sort. Vial on 2 and responding with them is fantastic by the way... One of the best feelings I've had with the deck when your opponent double cracks fetch and you resp... ^_^

As far as the Mirran Crusader is concerned, I've been playing with it since about New Phyrexia's release and I've loved them. Part of why I cut the Avengers for them was because they are a great 3 drop that gives me an additional reason to take my Vials to 3 other than the 4 Flickerwisp and 3 Mangara. Also I put them in partly because they block KotR and Goyf all day long and the Double Strike makes the equipment even more fantastic. I don't have my list with me at the moment, but if you guys would like it, I can probably get it posted in a day or two.

[monovfox]

When I originally made the deck myself I didn't have any Enlightened Tutors, and with that being the case when Scars came out I jumped on playing the Leonin Arbiters. When I did get my set of E Tutors and tried them out, I decided that I loved the Arbiter too much to cut them and play the Tutor board with efficiency (which would mean no Arbiter). I know that for some not playing the Tutor package is blasphemy, but I've come to love the Arbiter. The only cards that I play in my deck that search are the set of Stoneforge Mystics and that's perfectly fine by me. The Arbiter screws with the vast majority of decks, most have fetch lands and/or tutors of some sort. Vial on 2 and responding with them is fantastic by the way... One of the best feelings I've had with the deck when your opponent double cracks fetch and you resp... ^_^

As far as the Mirran Crusader is concerned, I've been playing with it since about New Phyrexia's release and I've loved them. Part of why I cut the Avengers for them was because they are a great 3 drop that gives me an additional reason to take my Vials to 3 other than the 4 Flickerwisp and 3 Mangara. Also I put them in partly because they block KotR and Goyf all day long and the Double Strike makes the equipment even more fantastic. I don't have my list with me at the moment, but if you guys would like it, I can probably get it posted in a day or two.

I respect your decision not to run the tutor board, it's not for everyone. However, it's the one I feel most comfortable using. I normally don't side in all 3 e-tutors, but when I do I am playing against any form of combo.

and do post it, I like to see where other people got with the deck (besides mindcensor. When I see mindcensor my mind automatically censors myself. /badpun)

[abetman]

Just wanted to share my build with censors and arbiters;

LEGACY (modern ported)

Creatures(32)
3 Militant Dryad
4 Mother of Runes
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Serra Avenger
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stonecloaker
3 Flicker Wisp
3 Mirran Crusader

Spells(8)
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial

Lands(20)
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Wasteland
13 Plains

SideBoard:
2 rest in peace
2 oblivion ring
2 ethersworn canonist
2 leonin relicwarder
2 ghostly prison
2 timely reinforcements
1 runed halo
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 jotun grunt
-

My sb needs tweaking though.

[monovfox]

@Abetman, I do agree, sideboard needs tweaking.



I actually like that build. it's not exactly DnT, but it's close to it. If you can, you should run the 4 waste 4 ghost quarter build.


btw, speaking of builds similar to yours, I saw one at the Deals open in esper.

From what I could tell it was running the following:

Thalia
Geist
Cabal Therapy
Revoker
Mindcensor
Judge's Familiar
Tidehallow Sculler
Leonin Arbiter
Flickerwisp
Grand Arbiter Augustin IV (I don't know how many)
Stifle
Ghost Quarter
Wasteland

I only got to see it play a few games, but the deck looked ungodly fun, and was definitely doing better than my food-poisoned performance of 1-3 drop ^_^;;;


I think that version of the deck definitely works, but it actually might want stifles.


btw, I think Swords to Plowshares is strictly better in legacy. If you're on the mana denial plan, atleast have a card that doesn't occasionally give them extra mana. Not to say Path to Exile isn't good in this format (it's insane), I'd much rather have my opponent gain life, because that's something I can deal with, rather than giving my opponent a turn 3 Jace.

Of course, my preference is more towards traditional lists, but I love when people screw around with Arbiter (strictly superior to mindcensor IMO).

[Zombie]

One of them green pointy-eared gits here, hello. I hear I'm supposed to murder you. Any tips on how to visit maximum hoofstomp on your white, hatebeary arses?

[Jungian Thing]

One of them green pointy-eared gits here, hello. I hear I'm supposed to murder you. Any tips on how to visit maximum hoofstomp on your white, hatebeary arses?

Green has ramp, overwhelm our taxes by putting in too many revoker targets and place basic forests into play. Creature based cheat into play Elvish Piper etc are helpful as are any creature based activated abilities (once you have dealt with the revokers). Out ramp us, if you can....and then put a big one on the deck! Which we will StP.

Consider this though, you will beat us and lose to everything else because nothing is like us. Good luck!

[Fry]

I respect your decision not to run the tutor board, it's not for everyone. However, it's the one I feel most comfortable using. I normally don't side in all 3 e-tutors, but when I do I am playing against any form of combo.

and do post it, I like to see where other people got with the deck (besides mindcensor. When I see mindcensor my mind automatically censors myself. /badpun)

Here's the list I promised the other day:

Main:
4 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
9 Plains

Side:
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Thalia Guardian of Thraben
1 Manriki Gusari
1 Phyrexian Revoker

I'm going to try out Imposing Sovereign in the side against Elves, hurts the Nettle/Druid and makes Craterhoof a bit sad too.

[monovfox]

just tested the post rules change stoneblade matchups.

I highly recommend the following:

manrikiri gusari in the sideboard

3rd equipment in the main

I might be getting rid of my disenchant for now, because gusari tends to be more relevant in my metagame.


Explanation of 3rd equipment: If your opponent grabs jitte, what do you grab? Your jitte suddenly looks a lot worse, and you can only grab batterskull once. I recommend Sofai or Solas, depending on preference.

[phoenix4]

Are we as Death and Taxes players the only players who has double Jitte in the 75?

[lyracian]

Are we as Death and Taxes players the only players who has double Jitte in the 75?

Stone blade and some Maverick lists run a second in the sideboard so no D&T is not the only deck to run two.

[Gheizen64]

I'm sorry because i didn't read most of development of the deck, but why isn't D&T running CotV?
It's true that you run some 1 cmc cards, however:

- not being able to cast vial past T3 isn't the biggest of losses
- Mother of runes can be casted via cavern on human, which cast almost anything except SFM and flickerwisp

You lose the ability to run swords, but a T2 chalice is autowin against a lot of decks like RUG, Elves!, UWR Delver, AnT, and can be pretty annoying for MonoU Omnitell, Deathblade and TA, while being a minor nuisance to Maverick and Jund.

[Justin]

If you are worried about combo decks (Elves, Tendrils), why not just run Ethersworn Canonist? He shuts down those decks as well as Chalice, can be protected by Mom, and can pick up equipment and bash with it. He doesn't help that much against Delver decks, but those should be positive matchups anyway.

[Fatal]

Chalice stopped beeing autowin vs BUG/Elves/Tendrils that is for sure - Abrupt Decay change it.

[Gheizen64]

If you are worried about combo decks (Elves, Tendrils), why not just run Ethersworn Canonist? He shuts down those decks as well as Chalice, can be protected by Mom, and can pick up equipment and bash with it. He doesn't help that much against Delver decks, but those should be positive matchups anyway.

Because Canonist don't stop cantrips, delvers, bolts etc...

[Finn]

Some people play Chalice. There are a lot of options in that range though. And it is not a creature, and D+T tends to favor weaker disruption piggybacked on a body over stronger disruption without.

[monovfox]

Dropping the deck. My meta is too hostile. I'll come back when I don't have bad matchups against 90% of the decks in my meta.

[lordofthepit]

Second place at the 525-player SCG Legacy Open at Somerset went to an aggressive Death and Taxes build (4 Serra Avengers + 4 Mirran Crusader, no Flickerwisp or Mindcensor). He ran 4 Flagstones of Trokair.

Is this something worth testing? It gets worse against Blood Moon and Back to Basics, and opens yourself up to an upkeep Wasteland (to take you off mana for one turn), but it works nicely with Cataclysm. Also, I like not having to buy more Beta Plains.

[Kpicco]

I've been personally curious about Flagstone since hearing about the legend rule change - Does anyone have any experience/input on it?

I am personally not a fan of the aggressive-build.

[Kring]

Loosing the wisps puts you on a bad spot a lot of times. It just shows how strong this deck is even without the most "acclaimed" cards. The flagstones were put off by a number of reasons, but they can have their place (as with all cards) in the correct meta. Flagstones + armageddon was a old school weenie tech that worked, so cataclysm is only better. I really depends what you want to attack.

[roflecones]

Flagstones acts like a pseudo fetchland that's immediately tappable for white therefore avoiding the mana screw from a turn1 stifle. While we were playtesting his deck, the play was always tap Flagstones for W, play second Flagstone and sacrifice the first one for the fetch trigger. He was still on par for lands but it thinned out the deck. The card would have been really broken if the plains didn't come in tapped.

[Finn]

Hey folks. Unlike just about every other Legacy deck ever, the best discussion for this deck is not at this site.

Try: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

But briefly, there had been a lot of talk about going with Flagstones with the rules change. I think that eventually most people decided not to for a few reasons. For one, the deck thinning is very marginal, and the merits of it have been mathematically proven to be of nearly no value. Actually, the math is rather simple. By contrast, adding extra lands to your graveyard helps opposing Tarmos and especially Deathrite Shamans a perceptible amount. Considering how ubiquitous they are I have my reservations of ever taking that chance. The other advantage, that of Cataclysm recovery, is compelling, but that is only true if you have Cataclysm. I have cut mine because they had been lackluster in certain key matchups. Finally, you have to consider that basic lands have intrinsic value. They are immune to the effects of Blood Moon, a card that pops up every once in a while. And I almost don't believe it happened so quickly, but getting your Flagstones Wastelanded on your upkeep has a tempo issue. I thought it would not happen much but I heard that it already cost Kurpaska a game, though I did not see it.

[mrjumbo03]

Finished 5th in a 70+ tourney. 2nd after swiss with a 5-0-2 record, only to lose to the 7th seed. Funny thing is I won against all 5 combo decks I faced, but lost to Punishing Jund in a very close game 3.

My list is basically the list in the OP except -1 plains, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Fiend Hunter. First time I dropped my Avengers. (Used to do a 2 Avenger-3 Crusader split)

R1: TES (2-0)
- Batterskull > Empty the Warrens

R2: ANT (2-1)
- Lost game 1, he mulls to 5 games 2 and 3. Didn't have a plains game 2, and he was forced to hardcast Massacre to kill Thalia but I just dropped another 1, game 3 I didn't drop plains all game and stranded his Massacre in hand with my army of hatebears.

R3: Sneak Show (2-0)
- G1 you can't lose with Mother, Revoker on Sneak and Karakas.

R4: MonoU Omnitell (2-0)
- G1 turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mangara, turn 4 Karakas Mangara a land, he didn't reach 4 to Show. In one of the critical turns, to play around FoW, I attack, during attack phase Mangara the only untapped land then bounce, then on 2nd main phase, play Mangara again.
- G2 Thalia plus Ports and surprisingly wasteland on City of Traitors.

R5: Sneak Show (2-1)
- G1 Godhand of Vial Mom Revoker Thalia Karakas Port
- G2 Epic match, Pithing on Sneak, but he managed to play Through the Breach (with Thalia in play) for Emmy, wiping my board, but he proceeds to blank on his cantrips with me at 3. I got him down to 1 when he blindly flips his top card for an Emrakul, with a Sneak in play. So close! I was already seeing shades of GP Strasbourg.
- G3 I have Mother and Revoker on Sneak, he Shows I drop Batterskull, he drops Griselbrand. I have Karakas already. He drew 7 when I bounced. He was at 4 life, with an Ancient Tomb in play, and he Through-the-Breaches Emmy, but I had 7 permanents because of the germ token. Revoker lives and he is pinched to death.

Drew the next 2 rounds

Quarters: Punishing Jund (1-2)
G1: Totally got raped by his double Deathrite, Punishing Fire and Grove hand. (I have nothing that survives Fire and even after dealing with the Grove, he just deathrites the creature that he killed.
G2: Won with Wilt-Leaf liege, which I had to vial in, with a Jitte and Solas plus a RIP in play. Survived through a Pernicious Deed activation.
G3: Lost a very close one. It was back and forth, he dominated me at the start due to 2 Lilianas but somehow I took care of it (Had to throw my Mirran Crusader only for him to -2 his Liliana). He even did the Liliana at 2, -2 so it dies, then plays another to +1 it. But I managed to stabilize later and was actually leading at one point with a Thalia in play with Karakas protection and a freshly cast Stoneforge grabbing Batterskull. But then he Abrupt decays Thalia so I bounce, then double thoughtseizes Thalia and Batterskull. I got him down to 5 with a Fiend Hunter removing a Bloodbraid, but he then draws another one which cascades into Abrupt. I was pissed because I drew 4 lands even after a Canopy activation, after playing Fiend Hunter and his board was just lands (So I swung Stoneforge twice, then 3 Fiend Hunter attacks). If I had drawn another creature, I could've won.

I thought I sb'd wrong in the Jund Matchup. I went -3 Mangara, -3 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia to bring in 4 RIPs, 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 1 Sunlance and 1 Pithing Needle. I think I should've kept in some number of Flickerwisps as I lacked beaters. I removed Mangara and Thalia because of Engineered Plague. And Mangara really sucks in this matchup because of the number of removals in his deck. Also, my mindset was Flickerwisp dies to all his removal spells, that's why I removed them. Any thoughts?

Also, Liliana is such a beating against us. Or maybe it was my lack of fliers that exacerbated the problem.

[blindspotxxx]

Finished 5th in a 70+ tourney. 2nd after swiss with a 5-0-2 record, only to lose to the 7th seed. Funny thing is I won against all 5 combo decks I faced, but lost to Punishing Jund in a very close game 3.

My list is basically the list in the OP except -1 plains, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Fiend Hunter. First time I dropped my Avengers. (Used to do a 2 Avenger-3 Crusader split)

R1: TES (2-0)
- Batterskull > Empty the Warrens

R2: ANT (2-1)
- Lost game 1, he mulls to 5 games 2 and 3. Didn't have a plains game 2, and he was forced to hardcast Massacre to kill Thalia but I just dropped another 1, game 3 I didn't drop plains all game and stranded his Massacre in hand with my army of hatebears.

R3: Sneak Show (2-0)
- G1 you can't lose with Mother, Revoker on Sneak and Karakas.

R4: MonoU Omnitell (2-0)
- G1 turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mangara, turn 4 Karakas Mangara a land, he didn't reach 4 to Show. In one of the critical turns, to play around FoW, I attack, during attack phase Mangara the only untapped land then bounce, then on 2nd main phase, play Mangara again.
- G2 Thalia plus Ports and surprisingly wasteland on City of Traitors.

R5: Sneak Show (2-1)
- G1 Godhand of Vial Mom Revoker Thalia Karakas Port
- G2 Epic match, Pithing on Sneak, but he managed to play Through the Breach (with Thalia in play) for Emmy, wiping my board, but he proceeds to blank on his cantrips with me at 3. I got him down to 1 when he blindly flips his top card for an Emrakul, with a Sneak in play. So close! I was already seeing shades of GP Strasbourg.
- G3 I have Mother and Revoker on Sneak, he Shows I drop Batterskull, he drops Griselbrand. I have Karakas already. He drew 7 when I bounced. He was at 4 life, with an Ancient Tomb in play, and he Through-the-Breaches Emmy, but I had 7 permanents because of the germ token. Revoker lives and he is pinched to death.

Drew the next 2 rounds

Quarters: Punishing Jund (1-2)
G1: Totally got raped by his double Deathrite, Punishing Fire and Grove hand. (I have nothing that survives Fire and even after dealing with the Grove, he just deathrites the creature that he killed.
G2: Won with Wilt-Leaf liege, which I had to vial in, with a Jitte and Solas plus a RIP in play. Survived through a Pernicious Deed activation.
G3: Lost a very close one. It was back and forth, he dominated me at the start due to 2 Lilianas but somehow I took care of it (Had to throw my Mirran Crusader only for him to -2 his Liliana). He even did the Liliana at 2, -2 so it dies, then plays another to +1 it. But I managed to stabilize later and was actually leading at one point with a Thalia in play with Karakas protection and a freshly cast Stoneforge grabbing Batterskull. But then he Abrupt decays Thalia so I bounce, then double thoughtseizes Thalia and Batterskull. I got him down to 5 with a Fiend Hunter removing a Bloodbraid, but he then draws another one which cascades into Abrupt. I was pissed because I drew 4 lands even after a Canopy activation, after playing Fiend Hunter and his board was just lands (So I swung Stoneforge twice, then 3 Fiend Hunter attacks). If I had drawn another creature, I could've won.

I thought I sb'd wrong in the Jund Matchup. I went -3 Mangara, -3 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia to bring in 4 RIPs, 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 1 Sunlance and 1 Pithing Needle. I think I should've kept in some number of Flickerwisps as I lacked beaters. I removed Mangara and Thalia because of Engineered Plague. And Mangara really sucks in this matchup because of the number of removals in his deck. Also, my mindset was Flickerwisp dies to all his removal spells, that's why I removed them. Any thoughts?

Also, Liliana is such a beating against us. Or maybe it was my lack of fliers that exacerbated the problem.

Most feared Top Death and Taxes player in the Philippines! Nice Games! Grats! I'm still bitter about that 7 permanents you had when Emrakul annihilatored you and that Revoker dealing the last 2 points of damage

[_erbs_]

Finished 5th in a 70+ tourney. 2nd after swiss with a 5-0-2 record, only to lose to the 7th seed. Funny thing is I won against all 5 combo decks I faced, but lost to Punishing Jund in a very close game 3.

My list is basically the list in the OP except -1 plains, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Fiend Hunter. First time I dropped my Avengers. (Used to do a 2 Avenger-3 Crusader split)

R1: TES (2-0)
- Batterskull > Empty the Warrens

R2: ANT (2-1)
- Lost game 1, he mulls to 5 games 2 and 3. Didn't have a plains game 2, and he was forced to hardcast Massacre to kill Thalia but I just dropped another 1, game 3 I didn't drop plains all game and stranded his Massacre in hand with my army of hatebears.

R3: Sneak Show (2-0)
- G1 you can't lose with Mother, Revoker on Sneak and Karakas.

R4: MonoU Omnitell (2-0)
- G1 turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mangara, turn 4 Karakas Mangara a land, he didn't reach 4 to Show. In one of the critical turns, to play around FoW, I attack, during attack phase Mangara the only untapped land then bounce, then on 2nd main phase, play Mangara again.
- G2 Thalia plus Ports and surprisingly wasteland on City of Traitors.

R5: Sneak Show (2-1)
- G1 Godhand of Vial Mom Revoker Thalia Karakas Port
- G2 Epic match, Pithing on Sneak, but he managed to play Through the Breach (with Thalia in play) for Emmy, wiping my board, but he proceeds to blank on his cantrips with me at 3. I got him down to 1 when he blindly flips his top card for an Emrakul, with a Sneak in play. So close! I was already seeing shades of GP Strasbourg.
- G3 I have Mother and Revoker on Sneak, he Shows I drop Batterskull, he drops Griselbrand. I have Karakas already. He drew 7 when I bounced. He was at 4 life, with an Ancient Tomb in play, and he Through-the-Breaches Emmy, but I had 7 permanents because of the germ token. Revoker lives and he is pinched to death.

Drew the next 2 rounds

Quarters: Punishing Jund (1-2)
G1: Totally got raped by his double Deathrite, Punishing Fire and Grove hand. (I have nothing that survives Fire and even after dealing with the Grove, he just deathrites the creature that he killed.
G2: Won with Wilt-Leaf liege, which I had to vial in, with a Jitte and Solas plus a RIP in play. Survived through a Pernicious Deed activation.
G3: Lost a very close one. It was back and forth, he dominated me at the start due to 2 Lilianas but somehow I took care of it (Had to throw my Mirran Crusader only for him to -2 his Liliana). He even did the Liliana at 2, -2 so it dies, then plays another to +1 it. But I managed to stabilize later and was actually leading at one point with a Thalia in play with Karakas protection and a freshly cast Stoneforge grabbing Batterskull. But then he Abrupt decays Thalia so I bounce, then double thoughtseizes Thalia and Batterskull. I got him down to 5 with a Fiend Hunter removing a Bloodbraid, but he then draws another one which cascades into Abrupt. I was pissed because I drew 4 lands even after a Canopy activation, after playing Fiend Hunter and his board was just lands (So I swung Stoneforge twice, then 3 Fiend Hunter attacks). If I had drawn another creature, I could've won.

I thought I sb'd wrong in the Jund Matchup. I went -3 Mangara, -3 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia to bring in 4 RIPs, 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 1 Sunlance and 1 Pithing Needle. I think I should've kept in some number of Flickerwisps as I lacked beaters. I removed Mangara and Thalia because of Engineered Plague. And Mangara really sucks in this matchup because of the number of removals in his deck. Also, my mindset was Flickerwisp dies to all his removal spells, that's why I removed them. Any thoughts?

Also, Liliana is such a beating against us. Or maybe it was my lack of fliers that exacerbated the problem.

congrats on the strong finish!

[dave8]

Finished 5th in a 70+ tourney. 2nd after swiss with a 5-0-2 record, only to lose to the 7th seed. Funny thing is I won against all 5 combo decks I faced, but lost to Punishing Jund in a very close game 3.

My list is basically the list in the OP except -1 plains, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Fiend Hunter. First time I dropped my Avengers. (Used to do a 2 Avenger-3 Crusader split)

R1: TES (2-0)
- Batterskull > Empty the Warrens

R2: ANT (2-1)
- Lost game 1, he mulls to 5 games 2 and 3. Didn't have a plains game 2, and he was forced to hardcast Massacre to kill Thalia but I just dropped another 1, game 3 I didn't drop plains all game and stranded his Massacre in hand with my army of hatebears.

R3: Sneak Show (2-0)
- G1 you can't lose with Mother, Revoker on Sneak and Karakas.

R4: MonoU Omnitell (2-0)
- G1 turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mangara, turn 4 Karakas Mangara a land, he didn't reach 4 to Show. In one of the critical turns, to play around FoW, I attack, during attack phase Mangara the only untapped land then bounce, then on 2nd main phase, play Mangara again.
- G2 Thalia plus Ports and surprisingly wasteland on City of Traitors.

R5: Sneak Show (2-1)
- G1 Godhand of Vial Mom Revoker Thalia Karakas Port
- G2 Epic match, Pithing on Sneak, but he managed to play Through the Breach (with Thalia in play) for Emmy, wiping my board, but he proceeds to blank on his cantrips with me at 3. I got him down to 1 when he blindly flips his top card for an Emrakul, with a Sneak in play. So close! I was already seeing shades of GP Strasbourg.
- G3 I have Mother and Revoker on Sneak, he Shows I drop Batterskull, he drops Griselbrand. I have Karakas already. He drew 7 when I bounced. He was at 4 life, with an Ancient Tomb in play, and he Through-the-Breaches Emmy, but I had 7 permanents because of the germ token. Revoker lives and he is pinched to death.

Drew the next 2 rounds

Quarters: Punishing Jund (1-2)
G1: Totally got raped by his double Deathrite, Punishing Fire and Grove hand. (I have nothing that survives Fire and even after dealing with the Grove, he just deathrites the creature that he killed.
G2: Won with Wilt-Leaf liege, which I had to vial in, with a Jitte and Solas plus a RIP in play. Survived through a Pernicious Deed activation.
G3: Lost a very close one. It was back and forth, he dominated me at the start due to 2 Lilianas but somehow I took care of it (Had to throw my Mirran Crusader only for him to -2 his Liliana). He even did the Liliana at 2, -2 so it dies, then plays another to +1 it. But I managed to stabilize later and was actually leading at one point with a Thalia in play with Karakas protection and a freshly cast Stoneforge grabbing Batterskull. But then he Abrupt decays Thalia so I bounce, then double thoughtseizes Thalia and Batterskull. I got him down to 5 with a Fiend Hunter removing a Bloodbraid, but he then draws another one which cascades into Abrupt. I was pissed because I drew 4 lands even after a Canopy activation, after playing Fiend Hunter and his board was just lands (So I swung Stoneforge twice, then 3 Fiend Hunter attacks). If I had drawn another creature, I could've won.

I thought I sb'd wrong in the Jund Matchup. I went -3 Mangara, -3 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia to bring in 4 RIPs, 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 1 Sunlance and 1 Pithing Needle. I think I should've kept in some number of Flickerwisps as I lacked beaters. I removed Mangara and Thalia because of Engineered Plague. And Mangara really sucks in this matchup because of the number of removals in his deck. Also, my mindset was Flickerwisp dies to all his removal spells, that's why I removed them. Any thoughts?

Also, Liliana is such a beating against us. Or maybe it was my lack of fliers that exacerbated the problem.

I usually side out Vials and Revokers against Jund. Removing creatures is not a good idea because you want as many threats as possible.

[dave8]

Finished 5th in a 70+ tourney. 2nd after swiss with a 5-0-2 record, only to lose to the 7th seed. Funny thing is I won against all 5 combo decks I faced, but lost to Punishing Jund in a very close game 3.

My list is basically the list in the OP except -1 plains, -1 Judge's Familiar, -1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Cavern of Souls, +1 Sword of Light and Shadow, +1 Fiend Hunter. First time I dropped my Avengers. (Used to do a 2 Avenger-3 Crusader split)

R1: TES (2-0)
- Batterskull > Empty the Warrens

R2: ANT (2-1)
- Lost game 1, he mulls to 5 games 2 and 3. Didn't have a plains game 2, and he was forced to hardcast Massacre to kill Thalia but I just dropped another 1, game 3 I didn't drop plains all game and stranded his Massacre in hand with my army of hatebears.

R3: Sneak Show (2-0)
- G1 you can't lose with Mother, Revoker on Sneak and Karakas.

R4: MonoU Omnitell (2-0)
- G1 turn 2 Thalia, turn 3 Mangara, turn 4 Karakas Mangara a land, he didn't reach 4 to Show. In one of the critical turns, to play around FoW, I attack, during attack phase Mangara the only untapped land then bounce, then on 2nd main phase, play Mangara again.
- G2 Thalia plus Ports and surprisingly wasteland on City of Traitors.

R5: Sneak Show (2-1)
- G1 Godhand of Vial Mom Revoker Thalia Karakas Port
- G2 Epic match, Pithing on Sneak, but he managed to play Through the Breach (with Thalia in play) for Emmy, wiping my board, but he proceeds to blank on his cantrips with me at 3. I got him down to 1 when he blindly flips his top card for an Emrakul, with a Sneak in play. So close! I was already seeing shades of GP Strasbourg.
- G3 I have Mother and Revoker on Sneak, he Shows I drop Batterskull, he drops Griselbrand. I have Karakas already. He drew 7 when I bounced. He was at 4 life, with an Ancient Tomb in play, and he Through-the-Breaches Emmy, but I had 7 permanents because of the germ token. Revoker lives and he is pinched to death.

Drew the next 2 rounds

Quarters: Punishing Jund (1-2)
G1: Totally got raped by his double Deathrite, Punishing Fire and Grove hand. (I have nothing that survives Fire and even after dealing with the Grove, he just deathrites the creature that he killed.
G2: Won with Wilt-Leaf liege, which I had to vial in, with a Jitte and Solas plus a RIP in play. Survived through a Pernicious Deed activation.
G3: Lost a very close one. It was back and forth, he dominated me at the start due to 2 Lilianas but somehow I took care of it (Had to throw my Mirran Crusader only for him to -2 his Liliana). He even did the Liliana at 2, -2 so it dies, then plays another to +1 it. But I managed to stabilize later and was actually leading at one point with a Thalia in play with Karakas protection and a freshly cast Stoneforge grabbing Batterskull. But then he Abrupt decays Thalia so I bounce, then double thoughtseizes Thalia and Batterskull. I got him down to 5 with a Fiend Hunter removing a Bloodbraid, but he then draws another one which cascades into Abrupt. I was pissed because I drew 4 lands even after a Canopy activation, after playing Fiend Hunter and his board was just lands (So I swung Stoneforge twice, then 3 Fiend Hunter attacks). If I had drawn another creature, I could've won.

I thought I sb'd wrong in the Jund Matchup. I went -3 Mangara, -3 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia to bring in 4 RIPs, 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 1 Sunlance and 1 Pithing Needle. I think I should've kept in some number of Flickerwisps as I lacked beaters. I removed Mangara and Thalia because of Engineered Plague. And Mangara really sucks in this matchup because of the number of removals in his deck. Also, my mindset was Flickerwisp dies to all his removal spells, that's why I removed them. Any thoughts?

Also, Liliana is such a beating against us. Or maybe it was my lack of fliers that exacerbated the problem.

I usually side out Vials and Revokers against Jund. Removing too many creatures is not a good idea because you want as many threats as possible.

[monovfox]

honestly, you want to be siding out Thalia. She is just bad against them.

[from Cairo]

honestly, you want to be siding out Thalia. She is just bad against them.

Against Jund? If so, interesting, I've found Thalia to be of high value in the match. Their deck is fairly creature light, usually 15-16 and their removal/curve isn't naturally that cheap - Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, Liliana - at +1 mana each it attacks their tempo until answered. Thalia trumps all of their creatures except Tarmogoyf in combat. Thalia is our most easily protected threat given Mother of Runes and Karakas.

From the Team Rocket list against Jund I was cutting 2 Mangara, 2 Aven Mindcensor and a 'Wisp for 2 Rest In Peace, 2 Wilt-Leaf and Sunlance. I could see the merit in finding another chop for a 2nd Jitte as that card seals the game quickly.

[DalkonCledwin]

Hey folks. Unlike just about every other Legacy deck ever, the best discussion for this deck is not at this site.

Try: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

But briefly, there had been a lot of talk about going with Flagstones with the rules change. I think that eventually most people decided not to for a few reasons. For one, the deck thinning is very marginal, and the merits of it have been mathematically proven to be of nearly no value. Actually, the math is rather simple. By contrast, adding extra lands to your graveyard helps opposing Tarmos and especially Deathrite Shamans a perceptible amount. Considering how ubiquitous they are I have my reservations of ever taking that chance. The other advantage, that of Cataclysm recovery, is compelling, but that is only true if you have Cataclysm. I have cut mine because they had been lackluster in certain key matchups. Finally, you have to consider that basic lands have intrinsic value. They are immune to the effects of Blood Moon, a card that pops up every once in a while. And I almost don't believe it happened so quickly, but getting your Flagstones Wastelanded on your upkeep has a tempo issue. I thought it would not happen much but I heard that it already cost Kurpaska a game, though I did not see it.

Finn, what you are forgetting to mention is that Flagstones of Trokair is a shuffle effect in a deck that has 4 to 8 shuffle effects under normal circumstances (and only 8 if you are playing a playset of E. Tutors in your sideboard). While it is true that the deck thinning is of marginal benefit at best, the shuffle effect is of monumental benefit to this deck. Especially when compared to the card that it would most likely be replacing (Horizon Canopy), which only lets you draw one card, and costs a life when you use it for colored mana. In contrast Flagstones doesn't hurt your life total, and allows you to further randomize your deck, while also thinning it ever so slightly. These two facts weigh heavily in it's favor. And that is even if you ignore the fact of it's interactions with Cataclysm and Armageddon. With those two things considered, especially with the new legend rule, this card is a beautiful gem, and I personally will be running it from now on in my Death and Taxes decks.

And arguing that Flagstones wastlanded on your upkeep has a tempo issue, that's true of any land other than a TRUE Fetch land dude. Thats kind of the game your playing (not to mention the whole point of Rishadan Port, despite the fact that it doesn't destroy the land). Granted the tempo issue is more pronounced with Flagstones than with most lands, but it is still there with any non-basic land. And its not like you have to run 4x Flagstones to utilize them.


From the Team Rocket list against Jund I was cutting 2 Mangara, 2 Aven Mindcensor and a 'Wisp for 2 Rest In Peace, 2 Wilt-Leaf and Sunlance. I could see the merit in finding another chop for a 2nd Jitte as that card seals the game quickly.

Something I have been wondering, do you guys still swap 1 for 1 when sideboarding, or do you adjust your deck size between matches depending on what you are facing? You know, now that you don't have to strictly keep your sideboard size at 15 cards total...

[mrjumbo03]

^Flagstones doesn't replace Canopy, it replaces Plains, hence the wasteland causing tempo play, as evidenced by that final match between Kurpaska and Fabiano. Flagstones also opens you up to Blood Moon and Back to Basics. We don't need the shuffle effect as we don't play Brainstorm or Top. It doesn't do enough to justify its inclusion.

[Finn]

I don't see how a shuffle effect is any benefit to this deck at all. The one benefit I am interested in is heading off the alt cost of Massacre. But mostly I agree with jumbo.

[DalkonCledwin]

^Flagstones doesn't replace Canopy, it replaces Plains, hence the wasteland causing tempo play, as evidenced by that final match between Kurpaska and Fabiano. Flagstones also opens you up to Blood Moon and Back to Basics. We don't need the shuffle effect as we don't play Brainstorm or Top. It doesn't do enough to justify its inclusion.

We run around 14 Non-Basic Lands as it is (can cut that down to an effective 11 non-basics since we never play more than one Karakas at any given time). We are already vulnerable to Blood Moon and Back to Basics as it is.

As for your claim that Flagstones doesn't replace Horizon Canopy... that's just foolishness. Horizon Canopy and Flagstones essentially fill the same spot in the decklist. If it weren't for the fact that some deck builders wanted card draw (and the creation of Cavern of Souls) we would in effect be running 11 to 12 Plains instead of what we are currently running as our basic land count (9 Plains). Fact is, an individual could very easily get away with running ZERO Horizon Canopies, and instead running 2 or 3 Flagstones of Trokair in their place.

As for your allegation that we don't need a shuffle effect because we don't play Brainstorm or Top... that is categorically false. Shuffle Effects are absolutely required in this game. And our deck has the benefit of FOUR of them as auto-includes. Just because Stoneforge Mystic doubles as a Tutor and a Cheat-Into-Play effect, does not change the fact that it is in fact also a shuffle effect. In point of fact several Death and Taxes players have been known to play a Stoneforge Mystic after having already searched for all of their equipment just in order to get the shuffle effect. Are you going to tell them that they shouldn't have done that? Fact is that shuffle effects are needed by this deck. In fact I would argue that they are needed far more by this deck because of the lack of proper fetch lands, than they are by any other deck. The fact is that our land base is so fragile that we can't really afford to run true fetch lands, thus we can't really make use of most of the games shuffle effects. So we have to settle for other types of shuffle effects instead. Just because we don't run Top and Brainstorm is no reason for us not to make use of perfectly good shuffle effects when they present themselves and they synergize with our decks already present cards.


I don't see how a shuffle effect is any benefit to this deck at all. The one benefit I am interested in is heading off the alt cost of Massacre. But mostly I agree with jumbo.

Obviously you both must be the kings of hax if neither of you have run into situations where you have drawn 5 cards in a row that have been duds in the situation that you happen to be in, and where you wish you had some way to randomize your deck a little. I know I sure have been in that situation.

[Finn]

Ok. Maybe I am a tard. But please enlighten me. How does a free shuffle do anything?

[DalkonCledwin]

Ok. Maybe I am a tard. But please enlighten me. How does a free shuffle do anything?

Okay, take for instance my above mentioned example where you are drawing 5 cards in a row that are all duds in the situation.

Tonight for example I was playing a Jund match up. I had mulled down to 5, he had mulled down to 6. We both started off really slow. So slow in fact that we were still playing when time was called (this was game 2). The problem was that I had just enough on the board to deal with his threats, but nothing else whatsoever. Unfortunately he built up enough momentum to steam roll me and I was still drawing blanks.

A Shuffle effect (especially one I could use in the interim as a mana source) would have been super beneficial to me as it would have allowed me to play stuff while I waited for it to be triggered, and even if it didn't get triggered I still had it's mana source. The fact that I was being overwhelmed by superior numbers and stronger creatures meant that I wasn't too keen to play Horizon Canopy due to the life cost and the chance that whatever I drew off of it could have also been a dud (and the fact that if I did draw using it I would have still been mana screwed). At least with Flagstones of Trokair when you use its effect, if you are already mana screwed, you don't come off more mana screwed than you were to start with.

[mrjumbo03]

Even if you drop Canopies, you still effectively cut into your Plains count, when in fact, Flagstones is essentially just a Plains WITH the disadvantages already stated above (Blood Moon, Tempo play etc). Canopies are great in the sense that you use it for mana when you get it early, and cycle it much later. Flagstones is only good when you play Cataclysm and Armageddon, both SB cards at best and maybe a 2-of at most. I dare say that you can reload much quicker against most opponents post Cataclysm EVEN IF you don't have Flagstones. Furthermore, you already said it yourself, we are already susceptible to Blood Moon, so why make ourselves more susceptible by cutting into the Plains count without any benefits other than shuffling (which I still don't understand how it can be considered beneficial in our deck) and marginal deck thinning (proven through numbers that the minuteness of such effect makes it irrelevant). If untapped, Canopy can play around Blood Moon by cycling itself. Not to mention the corner case interaction between Enlightened Tutor and Canopy, which I think is more relevant than the Cataclysm play.

And again, can you explain how shuffling helps in this deck? Outside of Jace Fateseal, I can't think of another scenario where we want that shuffle effect.

Edit: Your scenario is what is called variance. Shuffling won't help because our deck has no deck manipulation, so it really just happens. How the heck would you know that you would be drawing 5 duds?

You are also forgetting that Deathrite Shaman is a card, and giving him more food to work with is another disadvantage than just running Plains in its place.

[DalkonCledwin]

Except not everyone plays Enlightened Tutors in their sideboard anymore. The Team Rocket build that won GP Strasbourg certainly didn't. And you would be a fool not to play Cataclysm in a format featuring Eldrazi-Post.

You know that you have DRAWN 5 duds by the fact that you have 5 duds sitting in your hand. Shuffling after said 5 duds are in your hand isn't necessarily going to help. but it can't hurt either. And your right, we have no manipulation, but that doesn't mean we can't use the additional shuffle effect. Shuffling mid game is never a bad thing unless you just used a tutor that places the card you want on the top of your library.

As far as Deathrite Shaman is concerned, I run 3 Rest in Peace between my Main Deck and Sideboard. 1 of which is maindecked at the start of each match.

[dunk]

Except not everyone plays Enlightened Tutors in their sideboard anymore. The Team Rocket build that won GP Strasbourg certainly didn't. And you would be a fool not to play Cataclysm in a format featuring Eldrazi-Post.

You know that you have DRAWN 5 duds by the fact that you have 5 duds sitting in your hand. Cheating after said 5 duds are in your hand isn't necessarily going to help. but it can't hurt either. And your right, we have no manipulation, but that doesn't mean we can't use the additional cheat effect. Cheating mid game is never a bad thing unless you just used a tutor that places the card you want on the top of your library.

As far as Deathrite Shaman is concerned, I run 3 Rest in Peace between my Main Deck and Sideboard. 1 of which is maindecked at the start of each match.

You are such a genius dude. If all your cards are in a random order a random shuffle won't help... unless you cheat. But I'm sure you are also one who believes the modo - shuffler has certain clusters...

[DalkonCledwin]

I am perfectly content with the Magic Online Shuffler, and other digital random number generators, because I am perfectly aware that such random number generators used for shuffling of cards replicate the effects of shuffling a deck of cards hundreds of thousands of times. You cannot replicate this effect with physical cards unless you own a professional poker automated card shuffler. Unfortunately automated card shufflers don't work with cards that are in sleeves so well.

Point is, that you are not going to get completely randomized shuffling effects when shuffling physical cards the way you will when using Magic Online. That said, even in magic online you can still get bad draws, at which point having a shuffle effect is beneficial.

But since you guys are all so bound and determined to be against shuffle effects... perhaps we should get rid of the shuffle effect tacked onto Stoneforge Mystic. Or the Shuffle Effect tacked onto Enlightened Tutor. But then those two cards have shuffle effects because they are tutors.

fact is... when you cycle Horizon Canopy in order to draw a card, you are creating card disadvantage for yourself. This is because you are removing a land source from play, permanently unless you have some means of recurring land sources. What this does in a deck with as few colored sources as we have, is to limit the amount of colored sources you have in play at a given time. Meaning you are far less likely to have 2 White Mana available to hard cast a Cataclysm, Mangara, Miran Crusader, or Flickerwisp if you need to hard cast them (especially since you can ONLY hard cast the Cataclysm). Additionally it means that you will only have 1 land period after a cataclysm at best, possibly less if the land your opponent chooses to keep is a wasteland, and the land you chose to keep is one of your far more numerous non-basic lands as opposed to your less plentiful supply of basic lands.

At least with the Flagstones of Trokair, when you cataclysm, you are ensured to get a basic plains out of it alongside 1 other land. Meaning you can immediately cast back up support for whatever creature you left on the field (well not immediately, but the turn after). It would probably have had to wait till the turn after a cataclysm is cast anyways under normal circumstances because cataclysm costs 4 mana, and we rarely have more than 4 lands on the field (unless you are playing some land heavy variant of the deck I am unaware of?). The only occasions I have ever had 5 mana on the field at a given time, is when I am purposefully ramping up so that I can hard cast Batterskull, and have the luxury of being able to do so without repercussion from an enemies mana disruption package. And yes, I have on occasion hard cast a Batterskull with this deck.

So basically, don't dismiss a card like Flagstones of Trokair, just because it was bad in the old environment. Keep in mind the old environment didn't have Cloudpost decks up the wazoo. Nor did it require us to counter those decks with Cataclysm. Cataclysm inherently synergizes with Flagstones of Trokair in an undeniable way. To try to shrug it off as being a minor interaction in a format where every advantage you can milk is of importance, is rather foolish. Especially for those of us not wanting to run an Enlightened Tutor Board the way some people still cling on to trying to do. Enlightened Tutor believe it or not, is not the end all be all solution to this deck's sideboarding practices.

And by the way, I did not have to respond to your post because you engaged in an ad hominem attack against me. I did so only so that other posters would not be mislead by what you said.

[Finn]

I can't seem to find a narrative in your words. We are all having to guess at what your position is, Dalkon, because you continue talking without actually saying anything.. It feels like I am reading a filibuster. I, for one am not categorically against shuffling. I don't think anyone is. So tell me, please.

What is a concrete benefit of shuffling the library of this deck?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Don't wanna burst your bubbles, but really - shuffling alone does nothing to improve your game state. Yes, it gets different when you play with SD Top, BS, Sylvan Library, Oracle of Mul Daya or Vexing Arcanix. But again: shuffle effect does nothing on it's own.

If you know your top, then the shuffle effect matters. If you don't know your top then it doesn't matter.

Q: Is D&T is a deck that does know it's top?
A: D&T is a deck that doesn't know it's top, because it doesn't play cards (like Top) that allow you to look at and/or return cards to top.


In D&T there's zero gain from shuffle effect.

edit: Finn beat me to it.

[DalkonCledwin]

wow. All I can say, is that if you guys really don't know your decks well enough that you have to rely on Brainstorm, or other card advantage engines in order to know what your odds of drawing a useful card, and whether you need to shuffle are... you really aren't playing the right game.

This deck (Death and Taxes) is horribly efficient at getting mana screwed. While some of you may be content to ride it out and hope for the best. I say we use every tool at our disposal to make our game more efficient. Even if that means running a sub par fetch land that synergizes with our land destruction package.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Are you serious? This has nothing to do if I "know my deck" - which is, btw, quite unclear statement: you meant that I can recite the decklist, or that I can play the deck well, or what exactly? -, but rather with the fact that you don't know the top card of your deck, so shuffling does nothing to improve the game state. Unless you got X-ray eyes or are a real wizard, you may just as well shuffle a new crap on the top instead of a previous perfect card that waited there for you.

Again:
You don't know the top card of your library. It has nothing to do with your "imma knowin mah deck", because if the deck is properly randomized, you have no means to tell the top card: you don't play Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, Jace TMS, anything.

Yet again:
There is a random card on the top (that could be either good or bad) and you shuffle it away and end with another random card on top (which could once again be good or bad), but you have no means how to gain any value from all the shuffling, UNLESS YOU CHEAT.


I really think that this is a cwot, because I remember a similar discussion on deck-thinning fetchlands I had some years ago. If you're religious about the shuffle effects, I won't argue.


http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=3182&type=card


EDIT:
...Brainstorm, or other card advantage engines...
:laugh:
Well played, sir!

[L-Luck]

wow. All I can say, is that if you guys really don't know your decks well enough that you have to rely on Brainstorm, or other card advantage engines in order to know what your odds of drawing a useful card, and whether you need to shuffle are... you really aren't playing the right game.

This deck (Death and Taxes) is horribly efficient at getting mana screwed. While some of you may be content to ride it out and hope for the best. I say we use every tool at our disposal to make our game more efficient. Even if that means running a sub par fetch land that synergizes with our land destruction package.

If your top card is a random card, shuffling your library surprisingly won't change that. If you don't need Brainstorm or the likes to know the top of your deck, you are cheating.

[dsck]

Anyone else having trouble with elves and their natural orders into progenitus? They always seem to have it turn 3 and they can play around port and thalia because cradle is a nice card. I dont really want to splash Gaddock Teeg or Meddling Mage and options like Tariff/Humility dont feel right either.

[Aetherick]

wow. All I can say, is that if you guys really don't know your decks well enough that you have to rely on Brainstorm, or other card advantage engines in order to know what your odds of drawing a useful card, and whether you need to shuffle are... you really aren't playing the right game.

This deck (Death and Taxes) is horribly efficient at getting mana screwed. While some of you may be content to ride it out and hope for the best. I say we use every tool at our disposal to make our game more efficient. Even if that means running a sub par fetch land that synergizes with our land destruction package.

How does shuffling your deck when you don't know what is actually on top help you at all?

You have almost the exact same chance to have the same crap on top of the deck after the shuffle minus 1 plains

There has been mathematical studies on how negligible thinning actually is.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Anyone else having trouble with elves and their natural orders into progenitus? They always seem to have it turn 3 and they can play around port and thalia because cradle is a nice card. I dont really want to splash Gaddock Teeg or Meddling Mage and options like Tariff/Humility dont feel right either.
2-3 Parrots (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=136204&type=card) could be helpful.

[DalkonCledwin]

If your top card is a random card, shuffling your library surprisingly won't change that. If you don't need Brainstorm or the likes to know the top of your deck, you are cheating.

depends on how you accomplish it I suppose. Simple probability would accomplish the job of determining roughly what the odds that the next card you draw will be a land, not to mention what the odds the next card you draw will be a basic plains. All you need to know is how many lands or basic plains are in your deck and then keep track mentally of how many of each you have drawn vs. the rest of your deck and extrapolate from there. It's not that complicated a process and actually a lot simpler than what poker players do when they count cards. And in fact I think as long as you do this 100% internally there is nothing a judge can call you on about it.


There has been mathematical studies on how negligible thinning actually is.

Did those mathematical studies take into account thinning after 4 or more rounds of play, multiple tutor effects being played, and other similar factors? There are always mitigating circumstances that will make deck thinning more viable as the game goes longer.

[Pherion]

Okay, take for instance my above mentioned example where you are drawing 5 cards in a row that are all duds in the situation.

Mrjumbo03 is correct in stating that you are experiencing variance. I think you're making the mistake of amusing the top cards of your deck are bad because the ones you just drew are bad. You are, however, more likely draw a real card after drawing a series of blanks - and this probability is not changed by a shuffle effect.

If you have say 45 cards left in your deck, and 15 of them are blanks in the current situation, then you have a 33% (15/45) chance of drawing a blank. If you draw 5 blanks in a row, then there are 10 left in your deck, and your chances of drawing another blank is now 25% (10/40). Shuffling your deck does not change this probability.

As to Horizon Canopy, I am unsure how you can justify it as being card disadvantage. It is in fact card parody. Any card that replaces it's self is not card disadvantage. In the situation where you drew 5 blanks in a row, let’s examine two possible 6th draws:

Flagstones of Trokair - In order for this card to do anything when you play it you need another one in play, or a wasteland of your own to kill it. So let’s assume you have another one in play. You tap the old one for mana, play the new one and sacrifice the old one. You now have W floating, a freshly shuffled deck and 5 blanks in your hand.
Horizon Canopy - So this card only requires you to have another mana available to use it. So you play it, tap one of your other lands and sacrifice it. End result: -1 mana (from available in play), and a new random card from the top of your deck.

Let's compare and contrast:

Flagstones gives you W and a shuffled deck (all probabilities within the deck remain unchanged). The mana goes to waste, because you have no cards to play.
Canopy gives you an additional card and uses 1 mana (probabilities within the deck are adjusted depending on what you draw with the canopy).

So Flagstones does not provide you the opportunity to play anything else that turn, you are stuck with the same cards in hand and nothing new to work with till the next turn when you draw a random card from the top of your deck. Canopy on the other hand presents the possibility of drawing a new card from the top of your deck, and possibly making a play that will alter the game state on that same turn. Horizon canopy changes the probabilities within the deck by removing a random card from the deck, whereas flagstones simply re-randomizes the deck (and does not change the probabilities of any draws as described above).

I hope this helps to clarify the concept. As a primarily blue player (RUG, Stoneblade, Maricles, and BUG), I understand that the concepts of card advantage (both physical and virtual) can be challenging. However, once you are able to grasp them - they become powerful tools in winning games. If you are still unsure how the concepts work, I would suggest playing a few blue decks just to get the feel for the concepts of Physical Card Advantage, Virtual Card Advantage and Card Quality.

Let me know if I can help anymore!

Cheers,
Pherion

[Fry]

Anyone else having trouble with elves and their natural orders into progenitus?

In the past I have used Burrenton Forge-Tender since it does not target the Progenitus and can be recurred by Sword of Light and Shadow... I also play Mirran Crusader(nat. pro green) and Mothers for more pro green.

As far as the whole shuffling argument that seems to be going on here (completely ridiculous by the way.)... I don't care if you've gone x number of turns into the game and have tutored with a stoneforge or not. Thinning your deck by one or two cards won't increase the percentage of drawing something you may call useful when you start off with a sixty card deck. Yes things do increase the percentages of getting something else. The percentages however do not increase enough for the flagstones to be really worth it. It adds more non-basics to be disrupted by Blood Moon's, Magus of the Moon's, or even Back to Basics. One random shuffle effect without knowing what's on top to begin with does NOT help or make any substantial difference.

[phazonmutant]

There is a case where Dalkon could be right. If a player doesn't shuffle well and puts their lands back together in a clump, then the conditional probability of drawing a land given that you've just drawn a couple lands is higher than if you've just drawn some creatures or whatever.

But that's not an argument for shuffle effects being intrinsically good, it's an argument for not being terrible at randomization.

[nedleeds]

There has been mathematical studies on how negligible thinning actually is.

I'd hardly call it a study. It's more like a discrete distribution that a chimp could work out with Excel open.

[Jungian Thing]

depends on how you accomplish it I suppose. Simple probability would accomplish the job of determining roughly what the odds that the next card you draw will be a land, not to mention what the odds the next card you draw will be a basic plains. All you need to know is how many lands or basic plains are in your deck and then keep track mentally of how many of each you have drawn vs. the rest of your deck and extrapolate from there. It's not that complicated a process and actually a lot simpler than what poker players do when they count cards. And in fact I think as long as you do this 100% internally there is nothing a judge can call you on about it.



Did those mathematical studies take into account thinning after 4 or more rounds of play, multiple tutor effects being played, and other similar factors? There are always mitigating circumstances that will make deck thinning more viable as the game goes longer.

C'mon, let us in on the joke, you've got to be trolling right? Nobody can be so articulately stupid and not be a troll.

[FTW]

Obviously you both must be the kings of hax if neither of you have run into situations where you have drawn 5 cards in a row that have been duds in the situation that you happen to be in, and where you wish you had some way to randomize your deck a little. I know I sure have been in that situation.

Are you shuffling your deck again to randomize your next draw or to not draw a dud? Because here's how math works: if it's truly random (with equal probabilities for each card), you will draw duds sometimes. Sometimes multiple duds. Using a shuffle effect will not prevent the next dud. Period. Says my Math PhD.

If you are trying to "correct" your deck because you don't think it was sufficiently randomized in the first place, then you are admitting to cheating. Because EACH time you shuffle your deck, you are supposed to ensure it is sufficiently randomized before stopping and presenting it to the opponent to cut. So unless you did not shuffle your deck according to the rules in the first place, you should not be able to make it "more random" with an additional shuffle.

Let me pose you a math question:
If you are playing Magic on a train that left San Diego at 7:30 AM Pacific Standard Time traveling roughly east at 50 mph and there is another train traveling west from Austin at 65 mph on the same track that left at 4:00 PM Greenwich Mean Time, and you are playing a Legacy sanctioned event on the train with Death and Taxes and just drew 5 duds in a row, and there are 37 cards left in your deck and 8 more duds, how much do you decrease your chances of drawing a 6th dud by using a shuffle effect before your next draw step?

BONUS QUESTION: How long before Richard Garfield on the other train arrives and smacks you upside the head?

[FTW]

Shuffling after said 5 duds are in your hand isn't necessarily going to help. but it can't hurt either.

Yes, if there was 0 cost to shuffling (i.e. there was a basic land with "0: shuffle your library" and no one had a Suppression Field or Pithing Needle in play), then it may not help but can't hurt either so why not. But in real magic, there is usually a cost to shuffle: paying 1 life and Stifle vulnerability (fetchlands), or vulnerability to Blood Moon and tempo screw (Flagstones), etc. It also takes up time in a timed match.

You might get lucky and shuffle your best card to the top of your deck. Or you might get unlucky and shuffle a dud to the top. Or you may shuffle an average card to the top. The important thing to remember is that ON AVERAGE the new card will be neither better nor worse than the card you would have drawn without shuffling.

Let's say after drawing 5 duds the chance your next card is a dud is 1 in 5. If you use a shuffle effect, there is still a 1 in 5 chance the next card is a dud. Shuffling doesn't change that. If you flip a fair coin 10 times and it comes up heads 10 times in a row, there is still a 50/50 chance the next one will be tails. The past ones don't matter... the next one is still random.

So then why would you pay a cost for something that has no expected benefit?



And your right, we have no manipulation, but that doesn't mean we can't use the additional shuffle effect. Shuffling mid game is never a bad thing unless you just used a tutor that places the card you want on the top of your library.

But why is it a good thing either?

With library manipulation, we have additional information. That means the next card is no longer random - we know what it is! So then shuffling can be very useful because you are getting rid of a card you don't want to get a random card (which should be, on average, better than something you don't want). But without library manipulation, you don't know what the next card is. It could be the card you want already! And the new one after shuffling may not be. They're both random!

[Bed Decks Palyer]

There is a case where Dalkon could be right. If a player doesn't shuffle well and puts their lands back together in a clump, then the conditional probability of drawing a land given that you've just drawn a couple lands is higher than if you've just drawn some creatures or whatever.

But that's not an argument for shuffle effects being intrinsically good, it's an argument for not being terrible at randomization.
Also, that next shuffle effect may just well make a new cluster into previously 101% perfectly randomized deck.



I'd hardly call it a study. It's more like a discrete distribution that a chimp could work out with Excel open.
It still more than I've ever seen from the fetchland-thinning cultists.



Are you shuffling your deck again to randomize your next draw or to not draw a dud? Because here's how math works: if it's truly random (with equal probabilities for each card), you will draw duds sometimes. Sometimes multiple duds. Using a shuffle effect will not prevent the next dud. Period. Says my Math PhD.

If you are trying to "correct" your deck because you don't think it was sufficiently randomized in the first place, then you are admitting to cheating. Because EACH time you shuffle your deck, you are supposed to ensure it is sufficiently randomized before stopping and presenting it to the opponent to cut. So unless you did not shuffle your deck according to the rules in the first place, you should not be able to make it "more random" with an additional shuffle.

+1

[Darklingske]

In the past I have used Burrenton Forge-Tender since it does not target the Progenitus and can be recurred by Sword of Light and Shadow... I also play Mirran Crusader(nat. pro green) and Mothers for more pro green.
Forge tender is a nice solution, but Crusader and mom don't help since Progenitus has protection from everything.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Forge tender is a nice solution, but Crusader and mom don't help since Progenitus has protection from everything.
I think he meant them as a way how to get fast damage past the green walls...

[Barbed Blightning]

I think he meant them as a way how to get fast damage past the green walls...

Plus double jitte = GG

[Finn]

It's better than that. Old school protection from Progenitus.

Run through it in your head to see how protection from green plus that sword, plus burrenton forge tender win against Elves featuring progenitus?

[Fry]

At GP Indy last year the Burrenton Forge-Tender & Mirran Crusader & Sword of Light and Shadow got me from the semi-finals in a grinder to the finals (lost to a damn belcher deck in the finals! grr...) It's a great trick, love the non targeting of the Forge-Tender.

[FieryBalrog]

I am perfectly content with the Magic Online Shuffler, and other digital random number generators, because I am perfectly aware that such random number generators used for shuffling of cards replicate the effects of shuffling a deck of cards hundreds of thousands of times. You cannot replicate this effect with physical cards unless you own a professional poker automated card shuffler. Unfortunately automated card shufflers don't work with cards that are in sleeves so well.

Point is, that you are not going to get completely randomized shuffling effects when shuffling physical cards the way you will when using Magic Online. That said, even in magic online you can still get bad draws, at which point having a shuffle effect is beneficial.

But since you guys are all so bound and determined to be against shuffle effects... perhaps we should get rid of the shuffle effect tacked onto Stoneforge Mystic. Or the Shuffle Effect tacked onto Enlightened Tutor. But then those two cards have shuffle effects because they are tutors.

fact is... when you cycle Horizon Canopy in order to draw a card, you are creating card disadvantage for yourself. This is because you are removing a land source from play, permanently unless you have some means of recurring land sources. What this does in a deck with as few colored sources as we have, is to limit the amount of colored sources you have in play at a given time. Meaning you are far less likely to have 2 White Mana available to hard cast a Cataclysm, Mangara, Miran Crusader, or Flickerwisp if you need to hard cast them (especially since you can ONLY hard cast the Cataclysm). Additionally it means that you will only have 1 land period after a cataclysm at best, possibly less if the land your opponent chooses to keep is a wasteland, and the land you chose to keep is one of your far more numerous non-basic lands as opposed to your less plentiful supply of basic lands.

At least with the Flagstones of Trokair, when you cataclysm, you are ensured to get a basic plains out of it alongside 1 other land. Meaning you can immediately cast back up support for whatever creature you left on the field (well not immediately, but the turn after). It would probably have had to wait till the turn after a cataclysm is cast anyways under normal circumstances because cataclysm costs 4 mana, and we rarely have more than 4 lands on the field (unless you are playing some land heavy variant of the deck I am unaware of?). The only occasions I have ever had 5 mana on the field at a given time, is when I am purposefully ramping up so that I can hard cast Batterskull, and have the luxury of being able to do so without repercussion from an enemies mana disruption package. And yes, I have on occasion hard cast a Batterskull with this deck.

So basically, don't dismiss a card like Flagstones of Trokair, just because it was bad in the old environment. Keep in mind the old environment didn't have Cloudpost decks up the wazoo. Nor did it require us to counter those decks with Cataclysm. Cataclysm inherently synergizes with Flagstones of Trokair in an undeniable way. To try to shrug it off as being a minor interaction in a format where every advantage you can milk is of importance, is rather foolish. Especially for those of us not wanting to run an Enlightened Tutor Board the way some people still cling on to trying to do. Enlightened Tutor believe it or not, is not the end all be all solution to this deck's sideboarding practices.

And by the way, I did not have to respond to your post because you engaged in an ad hominem attack against me. I did so only so that other posters would not be mislead by what you said.

My brain hurts after reading this post. This might be the dumbest lengthy forum post I have read in quite a while.

I would think it was a parody were it not for the fact that I've seen this same fellow (user name) on a bunch of other boards and it's always the same.

[Koby]

Did those mathematical studies take into account thinning after 4 or more rounds of play, multiple tutor effects being played, and other similar factors? There are always mitigating circumstances that will make deck thinning more viable as the game goes longer.

Whhhooooossh.

Not really sure what tree you're barking up Dalkon, but you're making a lot of splash and not a single wave. If you want to present a mathematical argument for card choices, I suggest you present some hypergeometric distribution calculations with clear and enumerated scenarios.

Even if you can demonstrate greater than 1% improvement over several turns, that's only going to effectively improve your topdeck once in 100 games. That's about once in 10 tournaments. Seems like a winning strategy.

[BlkdOutGsxR]

I have been wondering about flagstones, the shuffle effect has no benefit to the deck (Which is a mind-blowing argument if you cannot know the top card or what you will draw into) but I have been curious about it because I run cataclysm in the sideboard and the random annihilator triggers you will face with sneak and show. I have read a couple pages back (new member) but is there a distinct disadvantage to the card other then not being able to cast two swords to plowshares at instant speed on your opponents turn (if you have two flags with no other white sources)?

The statement that if it only helps 1% of your match-ups it is a bad card doesn't really fly, assuming that it doesn't hurt your deck in 1% then it is still an advantage to have the card, and that IS good magic unless your trading off a card that would give you greater then a 1% advantage.

Edit: Blood Moon, got it. So what do people think about running it if sneak and show is a big thing around your area? Worth it?

[Jungian Thing]

I have been using four flagstones, there are a number of pros and cons.

The main cons are Blood Moon and having it wasted during your upkeep, which happened to Kurpaska in a recent SCG final.

On the pro side, there is the fact it isn't a plains so anti-plains card Massacre is not a problem. They tutor a plains (can fetch a dual or Mistviel plains). Anti Pox, and synch with Cataclysm. Flagstone petals.

From my usage of them, I would say that they are neither overwhelmingly good nor for that matter devastatingly bad. They are a card the opponent could exploit though given time and exposure to DnT. I will keep mine until that happens.

[Fatal]

Vs Elves and Progenitus/Craterhoof you can use Wing Shards - its little forgotten hate but works perfectly as additional removal and dogde any kind of protection/counters, vs elves its works much better then you think :).

[Koby]

The statement that if it only helps 1% of your match-ups it is a bad card doesn't really fly, assuming that it doesn't hurt your deck in 1% then it is still an advantage to have the card, and that IS good magic unless your trading off a card that would give you greater then a 1% advantage.


The '1%' I mentioned is regarding the improved ratio of spells to land after consecutive "fetches".

Everyone should read this article regarding the mathematics of "deck thinning": http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096


Ultimately, then, I would argue that the data bears out the contention that playing fetch-lands for their thinning effects are a bad idea: Only a suicidally reckless aggro deck can afford 4 life for a card, and those decks can’t afford to wait 20+ turns for it.

So, if the entire reason for running Flagstones was to thin out the deck, then it's a bad idea and a waste of resources and availability/access to mana right away. The downsides are: Stifle, Wasteland, Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Price of Progress. The few upsides are synergy with Cataclysm or Weathered Wayfarer.

[BlkdOutGsxR]

Anyone have a link or know of a thread for sideboarding with this deck? Have a tourney this weekend but I just started getting into legacy.

Current Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sunlance
2 Cataclysm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion ring
2 Wilt-leaf liege
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 leonin Relic-warder
2 Rest in Peace

[monovfox]

Anyone have a link or know of a thread for sideboarding with this deck? Have a tourney this weekend but I just started getting into legacy.

Current Sideboard:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sunlance
2 Cataclysm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion ring
2 Wilt-leaf liege
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 leonin Relic-warder
2 Rest in Peace

seems pretty standard. I'd prolly swap the jitte for a disenchant or a manrikiri gusari.

What's your 60?

[BlkdOutGsxR]

seems pretty standard. I'd prolly swap the jitte for a disenchant or a manrikiri gusari.

What's your 60?

Oh I was talking for specific's on games, like whats in/out in curtain match-ups. Running Enevoldsen's list (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=57848) -Castle/+Plains. I was also thinking about switching the Jitte for a Manrikiri but Jitte seems very good against the mirror. But Legacy is so new to me that I really have no idea what I'm getting into Lol. Trying to read up on it as much as possible before the weekend.

[from Cairo]

Running Enevoldsen's list -Castle/+Plains.


1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sunlance
2 Cataclysm
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle
2 Oblivion ring
2 Wilt-leaf liege
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 leonin Relic-warder
2 Rest in Peace

...

Oh I was talking for specific's on games, like whats in/out in curtain match-ups.

I don't have a set SB plan currently, but in general these are the types of swaps I'd use.

In general against combo the 2 STP come out for 2 Canonist. Then the remaining 2 STP and Fiend Hunter are replaced with combinations of either Leonin Relic Warder (Belcher/TES/ANT), Rest in Peace (ANT), Pithing Needle (Belcher/Sneak Attack) or O Ring (SnT here FH stays in).

Against Miracles STP, Fiend Hunter come out. If it's the near creatureless builds I would consider Jitte and an SFM as further chops. O Ring, Cataclysm, Relic Warder and Needle are all solid, Canonist can fill out slots too.

Against DeathBlade and Jund decks I cut Mangara, and Aven Mincensor for the RiP, 2nd Jitte and Sunlance. Against Jund 1-2 Flickerwisp and 0-1 Thalia for 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege.

Against Elves I chop Mangara and Flickerwisp for 2 Ethersworn Canonist, Sunlance, Jitte, and Pithing Needle.

Against Shardless I drop Aven Mincensor, Mangara and maybe a Flickerwisp for 2 Oblivion Ring and 2 Rest in Peace.

Against Maverick/Bant I cut some Thalia and Aven Mindcensor for Umezawa's Jitte, Leonin Relic Warder and maybe an Oblivion Ring

Against the Mirror I cut Thalia and probably a Mirran Crusader for 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege, Umezawa's Jitte, Leonin Relic-Warder, and Oblivion Ring.

Against Goblins and Merfolk I drop some Thalia for Jitte and Sunlance vs Goblins; against Merfolk instead bringing in Oblivion Ring. Cataclysm might be good against Goblins too, I might replace the remaining Thalias on the draw for 'Clysm.

Hopefully that gives some insight to the common match ups. I'd imagine others will have some feedback as well. If there's another specific match you're concerned about or want some reasoning behind these picks let me know.

[monovfox]

from cairo has this shizzz covered. Against jund I usually pull 2 thalia. Seems reasonable IMO. Though, I guess I can see keeping her in.

[BlkdOutGsxR]

Thanks for the info Cairo. What are your thoughts on Elganjo Castle as a 1 of? Should I just run a plains or does the effect really come into play that often with Mangara? It would almost never save Thalia, so it stumps me a little.

I did notice that I just need to get some play in with the deck, being relatively new this deck is going to be one that I get better and better from here on out. Right now I am quite shotty with it.

[monovfox]

Thanks for the info Cairo. What are your thoughts on Elganjo Castle as a 1 of? Should I just run a plains or does the effect really come into play that often with Mangara? It would almost never save Thalia, so it stumps me a little.

I did notice that I just need to get some play in with the deck, being relatively new this deck is going to be one that I get better and better from here on out. Right now I am quite shotty with it.

I'm not Cairo, but when I played it, he card did absolutely nothing. Better to run a plains or a flagstones of trokair

[from Cairo]

Thanks for the info Cairo. What are your thoughts on Elganjo Castle as a 1 of? Should I just run a plains or does the effect really come into play that often with Mangara? It would almost never save Thalia, so it stumps me a little.

It's there for Punishing Fire. I think the perks and the drawbacks are both pretty marginal. But if you have a lot of P Fire locally it might be worth it.

[mrjumbo03]

Top 8'd a 53 person tourney with a record of 4-1-1, lost to miracles in the top8.

List is stock, basically forgottenforce's but Avengers instead of Mindcensors

R1 - American Delver 2-0
G1: Had too many threats against him, I remember him stifling my Stoneforge, but then he had to bolt it when I played a Wisp on it.
G2: He mulls to 5 and again too many threats to handle.

R2 - DnT Mirror 1-1
G1: First to vial, and first to Jitte
G2: I had him the whole game but his flyers pecked me. He topdecks a third flier after I dealt with 2 during the last 5 turns and promptly die while my 2 moms watched helpless.

R3 - TES 2-1 (I've been stomping storm lately and I don't know why)
G1: Thalia and Flicker do the job.
G2: I tutor for Canonist, and play it. He bounces it on his turn but he just ends while looking at his graveyard. Should've played the RIP I drew but I didn't see the play he could win with PiF (it included Vaporing his own Petal for enough storm).
G3: He therapies for Thalia, but my hand had Canonist and Revoker, which combined with a Flickerwisp is enough to kill him in a couple of turns.

R4 - MUD 2-0
G1: Vial into waste his Tomb really put the hurt as it severely slowed him down.
G2: Pithing on Greaves, Revoker on Ratchet Bomb, his Revoker on Vial, but eventually won as he basically killed himself with 2 tombs at the start.

R5 - RUG 2-1
G1: Vial, Revoker (Snared), Thalia (Dazed), Revoker and another Revoker, got him down to 9 before he killed 1, then I promptly played Stoneforge and he's out of answers.
G2: 2 Vials but only 1 white mana, risked it, lost due to Ancient Grudge.
G3: Won a back and forth game with Batterskull wearing Jitte. He lacked the third land to play his Krosan Grip.

R6: Drew into top8

Top8: Miracles 0-2 (Got terribly beaten)
G1: Venser and Karakas on his side is just downright dirty, with CB protection, as well as Jace. His Venser managed to survive 2 swords when he bounced via MisD and blindflip into Fluster. Being on the draw made a world of difference as he managed to Pierce my Vial. I think I could've won this one if I was on the play.
G2: Mulled my first hand which had no action until turn 3 (Double Mangara and Avenger with only 1 white source), kept a relatively okay 6-er with Mom and Flicker but got totally killed by his Terminus when I had Mom, Thalia and Flicker in play. In hindsight I should've kept the Flicker, I was a little tired and didn't think clearly. He eventually plays a Jace which I ORing, then he plays another (This is where the Flickerwisp would've helped big time.) Too add insult to injury, he even draws into his 1-of Venser again when I topdeck a Revoker after getting his 13th loyalty counter.

I don't know if I'm just unlucky but I lost badly (wasn't even in the game) for the 2nd time against Miracles (but the other time was a long while back - after RtR release). It didn't help that he had great hands both games as well. I hate the UW list as it has a really stable manabase.

I'm 2 for 2 in top 8's for the last 2 tourneys I played in (the other one was a 70+ man) but I lost both times in the quarters. Hopefully, third time's the charm and I finally breakthrough next month.

Keep on taxing!

[Oreia]

Congrats mrjumbo03! I know how awful the match against Miracles(UW/UWR) can be in the DnT side, btw the guy topdecking the 1-of Venser both times was the worst part, for sure!


Also, i went 3-1 last Legacy i played with DnT, 2-0 against Doomsday, 2-0 Against UR Delver, 2-0 Against Elves 1-2 Against BW(2 wastelands in my karakas 2 Vindicate in my plains... well, not a funny game for me).

[mrjumbo03]

^I know right. How I wish we get something from Theros block that's sorta like Gaddock Teeg. *Crosses fingers*

[Oreia]

^I know right. How I wish we get something from Theros block that's sorta like Gaddock Teeg. *Crosses fingers*

Sir, you are making me really exited about the spoilers, if we get something close to Teeg or whatever bear that can hurt Miracles, well, that's something i would LOVE to have!

[Mr. Froggy]

I just flipped my binder to get myself 3 Karakas, so I decided to build D&T since the deck has always fascinated me. I'm assuming the deck is control first, aggro later?

[Zombie]

I just flipped my binder to get myself 3 Karakas, so I decided to build D&T since the deck has always fascinated me. I'm assuming the deck is control first, aggro later?

Very much so. The idea is to just throw so many wrenches into the opponent's machinery that he can't function properly. Damage comes as a side-effect.

[Mr. Froggy]

Very much so. The idea is to just throw so many wrenches into the opponent's machinery that he can't function properly. Damage comes as a side-effect.

That's quite a spicy way to put it. I'm even more interested. :)

[Lormador]

Sir, you are making me really exited about the spoilers, if we get something close to Teeg or whatever bear that can hurt Miracles, well, that's something i would LOVE to have!

One of the better players at my LGS plays Miracles, and I get paired against him all the time. I'll offer what little I think I know about the matchup. First a little backstory.

As I said, I get paired against him all the time, and he's a good player. I've tried Deadguy Ale, Junkblade, Dark Maverick, and Death & Taxes against him, with D&T turning out to be the best choice by a good-sized margin. It's the deck I choose to play more often than the others as well. At first, I'd lose almost every time. Gradually, my record has improved, and today I feel quite confident of my chances against Miracles. I expect draw or point from him, at this stage. An outright loss would be a surprise.

The three (four) most important interactions in this matchup (pre-board) are the following.

Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with Karakas behind her.
Equipment on the board.
Active Aether Vial.
Aven Mindcensor.


In addition, it's very good to keep a 'surprise' in reserve that can deal with a 4/4 Angel token and get past it for a few points of damage, such as a Fiend Hunter, or of course Flickerwisp out of an Aether Vial.

The way Miracles (and I'm usually working with the RIP-Helm variant) is going to win the game is either via that combo, Jace ultimate, or Angel tokens. The direst threat is actually the Angel tokens. Jace usually just brainstorms as much as possible until he's dealt with, and the combo depends on several moving parts, all of which are subject to Thalia taxation, being Revokered, and remaining in play through Flickerwisp. It's not impossible to pull off and is a threat to be aware of, but mostly what one has to deal with is Angel tokens. Even three of them is a problem, most of the time, given that one suffers a series of Terminus spells beforehand.

I'd put my tips against Miracles into this list.

Above all, don't overextend into a Terminus. If at any time Terminus goes down and you don't have another threat, you're lost.
Most of the time, you should aim Port at white mana. Be mindful of priority in various stages of the game against Top.
Try hard to avoid having to hardcast Batterskull. The opponent will try to force this so the equipment can be countered.
Against an active Top with a Vial, fake the tip a few times to absorb an opponent's mana. Once the Vial resolves, if a Revoker comes out there's no more opportunity to do so in response.
Their manabase is fetchland-heavy, and they may also bring Enlightened Tutor. Aven Mindcensor is a very key player.

[Finn]

This is great, Lormador. I'm going to use it in the primer unless you object.

[Lormador]

This is great, Lormador. I'm going to use it in the primer unless you object.

I have absolutely no objection, other than the caveat that I'm almost certainly not someone who should be regarded as any sort of authority on the subject. Thomas Enevoldsen and Michael Bonde, who declare Miracles to be an "easy" matchup and have the tournament results to back that claim up, doubtless would have a lot more to say about it. I would merely describe the matchup as winnable, perhaps 60-40.

I'd add one more thing to the helpful hints area, and that's to use Port on the enemy draw step rather than the upkeep if there's a Sensei's Divining Top in play that wasn't used during our EOT step. The Miracles player might well wish to Top on upkeep, and a sloppy Port might result in one less mana denied. I've had plenty of games come down to the Miracles player exclaiming, "One more mana and I would have had you!"

[Mr. Froggy]

I playtested the deck today, and it did exactly what it was supposed to do; turn unfair decks fair, and beat its ass.

Here's my list (for those interested)

Lands:
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle

Creatures:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

Others:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Absolute Law
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mirran Crusader
4 ?

My thoughts on the deck?

Mangara+Karakas is a hell of a beating...

T1 Vial, T2 Thalia, T3 Port wins games by itself...

Also, Flickerwisp is pretty much a Timewalk if you want it to be.

Now what I don't like is when I'm caught in topdeck mode, is there any possible library manipulation that could be used in this deck? Or has it been tried already but found not useful?

[Lormador]

T1 Vial, T2 Thalia, T3 Port wins games by itself...

...

Now what I don't like is when I'm caught in topdeck mode, is there any possible library manipulation that could be used in this deck? Or has it been tried already but found not useful?

I've found T2 Thalia, T3 Port to be quite good enough a lot of the time, Aether Vial is just gravy!

Re: library manipulation, a few things have been tried. What's seen the most play is a singleton Horizon Canopy. I see you're running Eiganjo Castle in that slot, and that's cool, Thomas prefers the Castle while I like the Canopy. Probably he's right.

Another thing I've seen done, but more rarely, is Sensei's Divining Top, either with a set of fetchlands or just some Flagstones. I haven't tried that one myself, but I've seen it pulled off.

Some decks like Sword of Fire and Ice in the main deck. That's a lot of work to draw a card, but drawing a card is really huge with this deck. It's not like we're going to get stuck cantripping into cantrips.

If there are any other feasible engines out there, I'd like to know about them. The various ideas too bad to be worth trying at all are Mentor of the Meek as well as Scrying Sheets.

[monovfox]

I think enevoldsen is wrong on that end. Just doesn't make sense why you would want eiganjo? Wayyy too narrow to be any good.

[Dzra]

Is there a reason Death and Taxes wouldn't try to support a small Green splash for Teeg? Between Aether Vial, Horizon Canopy, a few White fetches, and a couple Savannahs it shouldn't be hard to manage.

Also, why the trend of running Fiend Hunter over the third Mangara? Without any library manipulation, it seems very random.

[marumari]

Is there a reason Death and Taxes wouldn't try to support a small Green splash for Teeg? Between Aether Vial, Horizon Canopy, a few White fetches, and a couple Savannahs it shouldn't be hard to manage.

Also, why the trend of running Fiend Hunter over the third Mangara? Without any library manipulation, it seems very random.

Presumably because if you want to be guaranteed to see your Teeg, you need to run three or four (just like Thalia), unless you start running GSZ. Of course, at that point, it makes sense to run some Knights of the Reliquary, a Sylvan Library, perhaps a Dryad Arbor, and a Scavenging Ooze. Basically, Death and Taxes with green is a deck that already has a name. :P

Maverick is a fine deck, but it has weaknesses that this deck doesn't have, such as being worse against decks with Wasteland and Stifle. In Legacy, it's all about tradeoffs.

[Lormador]

The deck's original form actually was GW, so I wouldn't dismiss this variant out of hand. I've considered trying it out myself but always stepped back from the brink. I have a hard time accepting the use of 4 Rishadan Port in a multicolor deck. If I've got 10 lands to work with for colored mana (leaving out Karakas and whatever funky special lands I'm into at the time), and 4 of those are Windswept Heath, at a minimum I'm going to have 4 Plains, 1 Savannah, 1 Forest making up the rest of the base. Most likely I'll want more than one Savannah though, possibly running 4 Savannah, 1 Forest, 1 Plains.

With Blood Moon on the rise, I kind of like just having a good density of basics to lay down.

Re: the Fiend Hunter, I used to wonder what this was for too but it's extremely useful.

It's a human, for Cavern of Souls.
It has 3 toughness, safe from a single Punishing Fire.
It's Swords to Plowshares #5.
The target can be switched with Flickerwisp.
Vial + Flickerwisp + Fiend Hunter = two things exiled.
Takes down tokens like a boss, Marit Lage for instance.
Takes down Emrakul.


That it's an extra removal spell is very relevant against one of the toughest matchups, Elves.
T1: StP your mana dork
T2: Revoker naming Heritage Druid / Port you / Stoneforge Mystic (or whatever)
T3: Fiend Hunter your Wirewood Symbiote
T4: Cast + Equip Jitte, swing

It's also done very good work for me in those clutch moments against Miracles, when their combat math involves a certain number of Angel tokens and they are trying to avoid those final few points of damage.

[Finn]

I'm not against Fiend Hunter, but I can't see pulling a Mangara out for it. Opponents freak out when they see Mangara hit the battlefield. 3 Mangara and 4 Karakas for me until there is some shift that reduces the power of the combo. I spoke to some people and I know I have read the same thing at some point; complaining that they don't pull off the trick often enough. I am astounded how that have not figured out that it is because they are using 2/3 instead of 3/4.

[Mr. Froggy]

Mangara is retarded good. His ability is ridiculous when you get to use it, which makes me wanting a 4th Karakas, but only testing will tell.

[MissBelle]

Hi everybody! Long time lurker, first time poster. Figured I'd give it a go!
Every tuesday night, we have a legacy "tournament". It's not really official or anything, we go by points and not standings, but it's still a great place to get 4 rounds in with a competitive environment. The players are rough, the decks tough and the brews are strange. Although I'm very new to the format, I've been incredibly consistent with Merfolk, UR Delver and a little Show 'n' Tell and Goblins under my belt. Last night, I tried playing with Death and Taxes!



4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Sunlance
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 True Believer
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap


As you can see, my main deck is very standard, but the sideboard was all over the place. If I had my complete choice, I would definitely had left out the combo-hate and added more Miracle hate. We only had 1 guy show up playing combo (out of 22) so I had quite a few dead spots.

Match 1: Four Colour Reanimator
Game 1: On the play, hit him with a surprise Mother of Runescape into a Thalia and held up a Swords to Plowshares in fear of him ever getting anything online. Rishadan Port did a lot of the heavy lifting, keeping him off colours. Eventually, he cast a 2 mana Brainstorm on 2 lands at the end of my turn, I flash in a Mindcensor and he couldn't Entomb, Force of Will or do anything but cantrip.
Game 2: "Grindy" is the word used to describe this; I chip him down over turns and turns, right down to 5 life. He Pyroclasms my Thalia + Mom combo thinking he could get both or maybe I wouldn't notice. Then Liliana arrives to wreck everything! Luckily, I rip a RIP and just stall the game out over a LOT of turns, but once that Abrupt Decay arrives, there's nothing I could do.
Game 3: Once again on the play, with a lot of removal but not a lot of creatures, and at the same time, he keeps a hand with Liliana and not a lot else to do. I think he expected something more aggressive. Time is called after him upticking Lili and being chipped down by something small and being on the defensive. His brain didn't "switch" from defensive to offensive, which is something the player has trouble with, so his mistake cost him a potential win.
Result: 1-1-1: Draw

Match 2: RIP 'N' ROLL aka Rest in Peace Miracles
Game 1: I don't remember much in this game other his huge mistake of turn 1 Top, and then my turn 1 AEther Vial. Mangara soft-lock cuts him off white and the ability to do anything.
Game 2: With literally 1 card to sideboard, I keep an opener of Rish-Rish-Waste-Waste-Plains-Plains-Mother of Runes. I figured I'm going against the slowest deck of the day and that I may as well keep it, since my draws are much more live than his. After about 8 turns of doing nothing but cut him off colours, I draw a Thalia and some more Rishadan Ports. His face was one of pure anguish. "Why oh why did you need to tap 3 of my lands, and waste my off-colours?"
Result: 2-0: Win

Match 3: UW Miracles
Game 1: This one was great. Knowing this guy played either Miracles or RUG Delver, I kept an opener with an AEther Vial. Nothing happens for the first few turns of the game past me Rishadanning him. He plays 2 Fetchlands and begins to crack, and I make a huge derp of a move; Vial on 3, tap it expecting a response, then untap it and tap 3 lands to hard-cast Mindcensor. He cracks another fetch in return, I THEN activate Vial for a Flickerwisp. In the end, it didn't matter. He had a swords in hand to plow my dudes, but had he not, there would have been an incredible blow-out. After a few turns, he Terminus'd me and ticks Jace up for lethal.
Game 2: This time, I have slightly more stuff to sideboard since he has a few Snapcaster Mages. I don't remember this game all too well other than Mirran Crusader doing a lot of work, Revoker on Jace and a resolved Stoneforge Mystic grabbing a Batterskull.
Game 3: A far quicker game, due to the fear of going to time and having nothing more than a draw. I apply light pressure with a Cavern'd Thalia and Revoker which get Miracle-Terminus'd. I need to rebuild and fast! Coming down were 2 Mother of Runes, another Revoker and a Mirran Crusader. Time was called, he was on 14 life. Elspeth comes down which scares the living daylights out of me. The sickest rip ever of Fiend Hunter gobbles his token, and I beat him down to just 4 life. He does a Draw-Go plan. In comes Mirran Crusader, protection from White, and OH HELLO SNAPCASTER MAGE! I see the board state and almost derp, but that extra Mother granting protection from Blue does the trick!
Result: 2-1: Win

Match 4: BUG Delver
Game 1: Not a whole lot happened, it was all over so fast. I couldn't resolve a Vial or any of my 3 Thalias, while getting beat down by Nimble Mongoose. It was even more fun to have 3 Swords to Plowshares in my hand just for them!
Game 2: I was much happier about an early resolved Vial into Mirran Crusader and Revoker naming Lili. Wastelands kept him off colours and double strike destroyed him. That resolved Crusader was complete death and destruction, I love it!
Game 3: I get my thoughts seized straight off a shockland, he takes my Thalia. Mother of Runes is my turn 1 play, followed by a Stoneforge Mystic on a Cavern. I grabbed Sword of Feast and Famine, but then cuts me off the mana and I can't cheat it in! Eventually he drops a Liliana, and I get a Revoker naming her. He gets Jace, bounces the Revoker and makes me pitch a Batterskull I was bluffing on my Stoneforge. Off the top comes another Revoker and it's just a complete standstill from there. Fortunately, I rebuild quicker than he does and that Sword comes into play attached to a Revoker and it's lights out!
Result: 2-1: Win

Aftermath!
So I had fun playing the deck and I feel as though it will become a mainstay in my collection. Coming from Standard, I could really wrap my head around the hatebears. I feel like the maindeck choices were great, but my sideboard options and sideboarding in general felt really weird. I was often sideboarding out 1 of a few things instead of 2s, 3s and 4s.

[Finn]

Don't sweat the tentative side boarding. I think most of us do the same. There is something to be said for making your opponent think you have access to lots of cards that are really just 1 or 2 of in the deck. But also, the main is pretty versatile. I am rarely anxious to side out anything unless it is one of the bad matchups.

Thanks for the interesting report. Welcome to the forum.

[MissBelle]

I've put down my new sideboard for what I think would work at my local meta, but I'm having such a hard time justifying Sword of Fire and Ice. People were telling me to use it in the RUG Delver matchup or something similar, but I get the feeling that I would never actually resolve it. I know, Sword of Feast and Famine is kinda lazy as well but it just makes all my dudes Mirran Crusaders, which is pretty awesome in some matchups. Our meta has quite the amount of BUG players, after all.

After tuesday night, I saw my mistakes. Against those Miracle players, out should have gone the swords, and never should I have taken out a Mangara. That's just silly of me! Oh well, you live and learn.

[LegacyDan]

I rarely if ever find myself siding out Mangara, he's just too useful. And side boarding has always been a little awkward with this deck, even more so since my sideboard typically has 2-3 E Tutors and the rest are singletons. Kudos on the wins, and enjoy the deck. Its a blast to play!

[lordofthepit]

Any chance the new Spear sees play in the sideboard flex slots? It gives some protection against Dread of Night or Engineered Plague type effects while actually affecting the board (killing a lone creature wearing Jitte, for instance). The list is pretty tight so I'm not confident this is impactful enough.

[klaus]

Hi guys,
I'd like to spark a little brainstorm...
After getting bashed by a non-GSZ Maverick.dec over and over again, with me bringing all kinds of tier decks to the battlefield, I came to think about a green splash fpr DnT - again.
Yes, I'm aware it has probably been discussed before, but I'd like to hear some of your guys' opinions again.
KotR, Sylvan Safekeeper & -Library, Gaddock, Noble Hierarch, Scrybranger, Choke, Pridemage, Ooze and possibly Thrun clearly are extremely powerful spells, some of which would be core cards were it not for the tree-ish mana symbols, since most of them support DnT's disruptive strategy genuinely.

I get the "mono W = more stable manabase" argument, but it doesn't convince me. What other arguments are there beyond that? Please try to elaborate on your views - cheers! :)

[nonja]

I get the "mono W = more stable manabase" argument, but it doesn't convince me. What other arguments are there beyond that? Please try to elaborate on your views - cheers! :)

if you add all these cards to DnT, what the result would be? Correct answer: Maverick.

Question which is stronger - Maverick or DnT - is the same as asking BUG cascade or Miracles etc. etc.

[klaus]

if you add all these cards to DnT, what the result would be? Correct answer: Maverick.
Question which is stronger - Maverick or DnT - is the same as asking BUG cascade or Miracles etc. etc.

I see your point, however Shardless BUG & Miracles are worlds apart, and have a different game plan, so that example doesn not convince me really.
I'm also not referring to add all of the above spells, but rather reinvestigate a light splash. Gaddock, Choke and KotR would be on my initial shortlist.

[from Cairo]

I get the "mono W = more stable manabase" argument, but it doesn't convince me. What other arguments are there beyond that? Please try to elaborate on your views

The reverse could be asked, what are you gaining by adding Green? I see utility in Scryb Ranger and Knight of the Reliquary for sure, but do they accomplish something that's not available to the Death and Taxes? Scryb Ranger gives you a way to abuse tap abilitys, which Death and Taxes plays two of - Mother of Runes and Mangara of Conondor, but on color the deck already has Karakas to abuse Mangara. One can look at the added benefits of each of those synergistic pieces - Scryb Ranger's a flying body, it can provide Vigilance and it can mimic Maze of Ith tricks with Dryad Arbor. Karakas fits the deck's manabase providing on color mana, providing protection for our Mangaras and Thalias from removal and the ability to serve as Maze of Ith with blocking with Legends and returning them before damage. Flickerwisp also serves to cover some of the utility aspects of Scryb Ranger allowing the deck to reset creatures to be up as blockers, but goes much further by allowing us to reset Batterskull Germs, flip Insectile Aberrations, reset opposing Jittes/Vials/Planeswalkers, while also having great interaction with Mangara, Oblivion Ring and Fiend Hunter. One important constraint to keep in mind with Scryb Ranger is the way that it prohibits your own mana development, which I think plays fine in an aggressive deck and one that has access to maybe Knight into Gaea's Cradle to make up lost lands, but in a deck looking to grind into the mid-late game and utilize their mana sources to Rishadan Port their opponents and also deploy threats, losing several turns of land drops to untap effects is counter productive.

Knight of the Reliquary can do a lot of interesting things. It's ability to tutor Wastelands is powerful. One way Death and Taxes compensates not having access to additional tutors for Wastelands is it's use of Rishadan Port, which I feel like really differentiates the two decks greatly. In games 2 and 3 opposing decks often fetch to their basics first against both Maverick and Death and Taxes to avoid getting Wasteland + Thalia'd, with Death and Taxes the deck still has the ability to attack the opponent's mana with Rishadan Port and often limit their lines even greater due to them operating off of basics.

Knight can offer access to a utility tool box of effect-Lands mostly out of the Sideboard: Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith and maybe Karakas or Gaea's Cradle. Death and Taxes already runs multiple Karakas so the effect of fetching those is of less value. Between 4 Mother of Runes and Legends+Karakas the deck has many ways to assemble a Maze of Ith effect. Death and Taxes with no commitment to the Graveyard itself usually post boards Rest in Peace.

Lastly Knight is a large creature that can serve as a clock. Death and Taxes approach is usually locking up the ground with their Mother of Runes and using evasive creatures to provide their clock - Flickerwisp, Serra Avenger, Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor, etc. Unlike Maverick that often does look to aggressively close the game on the back a couple huge Knights, Death and Taxes usually is content to close the game with whatever incidental utility creature can go the distance.


I see your point, however Shardless BUG & Miracles are worlds apart, and have a different game plan, so that example doesn not convince me really.

Death and Taxes and Maverick are further apart than you seem to credit. Maverick is disruptive, but is also definitely the aggressor in most match ups. Death and Taxes is much further on the control end of agro-control. You mentioned facing off against the Vial based version, which is somewhat of a hybrid of these two decks. Instead of using the focus on density of large creatures via Green Sun's Zenith or incidental victory through the evasion ala Death and Taxes, the Vial Maverick deck seems to focus on assembling many synergistic creatures and Stoneforging up serveral pieces of equipment to create an unblockable multi-trigger Sword bearer.


reinvestigate a light splash. Gaddock, Choke and KotR would be on my initial shortlist.

Gaddock Teeg would be nice to have against Elves to blank Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith, outside that match up, we don't have a great need for Teeg. The deck plays around Terminus very well between being able to protect Thalia and not needing to commit more than 1-2 threats to the table at a time. The deck also very rarely has issues with Storm based combos if it gets to have a turn 2, Thalia and Ethersworn Canonist are better than Gaddock Teeg against ANT and TES.

Blue based decks have historically been our strongest pairing. I don't know how valuable Choke would be. Against mana intensive control decks Death and Taxes does have Cataclysm available to them, which can serve a similar function of cutting the opponent off of resources if it resolves.

Knight of the Reliquary is a powerful card. I feel like if there were White versions of Knight of the Reliquary and Scryb Ranger I would certainly test them extensively. I think those cards push the deck in a more aggressive direction, which if that's what you're looking for I think the Vial Maverick list does a good job of combining the best elements of this deck and GSZ Maverick.

[klaus]

.
Thanks for your thorough reply.
On a different note: what's the current opinion on Weathered Wayfarer? I see he has been discarded a long time ago, despite several obvious benefits. I guess "but there's nothing really worthwhile cutting for that critter" applies.

[DavidHernandez]

Hi Kalus.

I have been using Gaddock Teeg in my DnT build. I don't run fetches...they're no help. I run 2 Savannah. Teeg can come into play with Vial and I've played it successfully to several 1st place finishes in our local meta. Teeg is the only "green splash" I put into my DnT and I've been very, very happy with it.

In my opinion the deck can't support any more than 2 Teegs (1 main, 1 board), and any other green splash takes you to Maverick.

Dave

[Finn]

"What to cut" is my issue with green splash, really. It's not as if there are any cards that don't pull their weight. That's why the deck already has a lot of non-four-ofs. There is definitely a downside to including green - the mana base. But the upside does not seem to exist with certainty.

[DavidHernandez]

"What to cut" is my issue with green splash, really. It's not as if there are any cards that don't pull their weight. That's why the deck already has a lot of non-four-ofs. There is definitely a downside to including green - the mana base. But the upside does not seem to exist with certainty.

I completely agree with you. For my area, Teeg has proven important and helpful. I win more with him than without him. That being said, if I were going to play in a different meta/area, I would reconsider his inclusion. My real point is that Teeg can be added if your meta shows you that he's needed, and if you plan to add any more "splash" then you're no longer playing DnT....you're playing Maverick.

Dave

[Mr. Froggy]

I played at my LGS's weekly with D&T, and finished 4th! (out of 6) -_-...

List is pretty standard, and SB tweaked to my meta.

Rnd 1: Some Flavor of Punishing Blade (1-0-1) 0-1
Rnd 2: Maverick (2-0) 1-1
Rnd 3: Tin Fins (0-2) 1-2

:(

[monovfox]

The weekly update:

Spellskite is now the flavor of the month for the maindeck. I suggest everyone test it out, it's pretty decent.

[gmantle31]

Hi everybody!

It's my first post here but I have been following the D&T thread for some time and I have had quite some success with the deck at my local events, getting into top 8 several times in a row (approx. 30 players tournaments each time).

I play either the Enevoldsen version of GP Strasbourg or Kurpaska's recent version with Serra Avengers replacing Flickerwisps.

Here is my question: how do you beat Maverick with D&T????

Indeed, I have a lot of trouble against Maverick. There are some good Maverick players in my meta and I always loose (quite badly) against them. I'm sure it's not only a question of skill and experience (since I do well against other experienced players that play other decks).

May I ask the experienced players here about the way they handle this specific match up? It seems that Maverick is superior in every aspect to D&T: it has bigger creatures and tutors for them (GSZ), answers to our equipment that can be tutored as well (Qasali), mana acceleration so that they cannot easily be disrupted (and they don't care about Thalia since they play mostly creatures). It's like all our game plans do not work against them :-(

This is really frustrating for me, even more so that the Maverick match up is described as "slightly favorable" in the primer of the D&T deck...

Thank you guys for any help that would be greatly appreciated!

[Tylert]

Hi everybody!

It's my first post here but I have been following the D&T thread for some time and I have had quite some success with the deck at my local events, getting into top 8 several times in a row (approx. 30 players tournaments each time).

I play either the Enevoldsen version of GP Strasbourg or Kuparska's recent version with Serra Avengers replacing Flickerwisps.

Here is my question: how do you beat Maverick with D&T????

Indeed, I have a lot of trouble against Maverick. There are some good Maverick players in my meta and I always loose (quite badly) against them. I'm sure it's not only a question of skill and experience (since I do well against other experienced players that play other decks).

May I ask the experienced players here about the way they handle this specific match up? It seems that Maverick is superior in every aspect to D&T: it has bigger creatures and tutors for them (GSZ), answers to our equipment that can be tutored as well (Qasali), mana acceleration so that they cannot easily be disrupted (and they don't care about Thalia since they play mostly creatures). It's like all our game plans do not work against them :-(

This is really frustrating for me, even more so that the Maverick match up is described as "slightly favorable" in the primer of the D&T deck...

Thank you guys for any help that would be greatly appreciated!

You need to mana denial them and revoker on qasali + mother of runes.
after that any equipement will do (plus other tricks).
Most games vs maverick are long and you have to grind your advantage. Did not lose to a maverick player yet.

[thefreakaccident]

The only worthwhile target for revoker is qasali, while theirs are free to name vial (much more painful). If you revoker mother of runes, your only out to save any creatures is karakas, which only hits legends, and can be wastelanded itself. Mirren Crusader and your evasive critters are your primary assets in this matchup, as the equipment is usually mirrored between the two decks.

[from Cairo]

Due to both decks utilizing such little removal premium cards in the match up are Mother of Runes and Swords to Plowshares - Mom advantage is king.

The advantage that Death and Taxes can have is having more evasive threats. If it goes to the midgame with Mother of Runes clogging the ground on both sides, Death and Taxes has the ability to equip their Umezawa's Jitte onto a - Flickerwisp, Aven Mindcensor or Mirran Crusader to get through for counters. The player that gets the active Jitte is undoubtedly the one that runs away with the game (per result of zapping opposing Mother of Runes with -1/-1 counters).

[Oreia]

Here is my question: how do you beat Maverick with D&T????


I've been plaing LOTS and Lots of Maverick lately, and the easiest way to beat them is to stick a mirran+ Aven Mindcensor, also an active mom helps a lot.

The play sequence should be something like this: keep a hand with vial(don't mulligan to find a vial, it's not that good in this Matchup)/Mom/STP/Mirran/Thalia(They also run thalia, but 2 Thalias in the board makes the GSZ uncastable)/Aven Mindcensor/1+ Basic Plains, a hand with multiple of this is a certain keep.


Also, for the guys that were talking about the SB, it should be appropriate yo your field, you can't run 2 Canonists, as most of the lists does, if your field has 0 combo, the same is true for any other card(specially the Liege, which is ULTRA specific answer to Hymn and Liliana, and usually doesn't come up in other MU)
I've been testis the following sideboard.

1 Grafdigger's Cage(I like running 3 Graveyard hates, i chose cage because it's AMAZING against Elves, which is a really bad Matchup)

1 Sunlance( Against Shaman, Delver, and Bob.Deck)

1 Ratchet Bomb( The number of Young Pyromancer has risen significantly and the Bomb is the best answer, it is also a good answer to needles and goyfs if you need it to be)

1 Manriki Gusari(You know.... we're a small creatures deck, jitte is your nightmare, it also keeps Batterksull in check, if you can't destroy it, you at least can make it never block/attack)

2 Ethersworn Canonist(My maindeck is really strong against combo[same 60 as Enevoldsen], but these two are great allies against Storm decks).

2 Rest in Peace(Bye bye Goyf/Shaman.Deck)

1 Absolute Law(amazing against Canadian's Bolts, Rough/Tumblr and Punishing fire from Jund)

1 Sword of Feast and Famine(as said before, turning any of our guys into Crusaders, also comes against combo decks)

1 Sword of Light and Shadow(The big answer to "killallyourguys.deck", also gives you protection from White that our deck lacks)

1 Oblivion Ring(SnT variants, Miracles and against Esper Stoneblade)

1 Cataclism(The number of decks that this card is good against has decreased, so is the number of it in the SB)

2 Wilt-Leaf Liege(Against Discards decks, and if you think they are going to bring in Golgari charm/E. Plague)

Well, that's it for today, hope you guys like my big post and sorry if i said something really wrong, good lucky with the Mono White Not-So-Care-bears!

[Kyle]

It may belong more in Knight heavy mono-white decks and may be too cute, not to mention likely discussed before, but has anyone considered Silverblade Paladin as a 2- or 3-of in more Aggro builds? What could it replace?

[monovfox]

It may belong more in Knight heavy mono-white decks and may be too cute, not to mention likely discussed before, but has anyone considered Silverblade Paladin as a 2- or 3-of in more Aggro builds? What could it replace?

I've seen modern builds run this. I mean. If you're running the aggro version, you probably don't want [card]spellskite[/card[

[Finn]

I don't think Mav has to fear seeing two Thalia at the same time. Maverick is a typically hard grind. Every card is an element. You have the tools, but its so fluid. Practice, grasshoppa.

Of course, the meta may be augmented to beat you. There are lots of kinds of Maverick decks, you know.

[gmantle31]

Hey guys,
thanks a lot for all the comments & tips!


I don't think Mav has to fear seeing two Thalia at the same time. Maverick is a typically hard grind. Every card is an element. You have the tools, but its so fluid. Practice, grasshoppa.

Of course, the meta may be augmented to beat you. There are lots of kinds of Maverick decks, you know.

I have specific problems against green/white "regular" Maverick (i.e. vial less) and that include SOLAS in addition to Jitte & Batterskull main deck. It seems that they always go turn 1 mother, turn 2 SFM, turn 3 equip Jitte and go through with it. Plus, they always have removal in hand to get rid of my equipped critter :eek:


Regarding the inclusion of Spellskite, I have tried it yesterday and today against Maverick and it seems very good to protect that mother from removal or that equipped creature. And it is also very good against Jitte to keep a creature alive one more turn.

I have included 4 Spellskite instead of the 4 Serra Avengers in the Kurpaska's most recent list. But I wonder what should I cut from the Enevoldsen's GP Strasbourg list??? Do you guys have any idea??? What would be a "standard" list that include Spellskite maindeck?

[Finn]

Four is almost certainly too many Spellskites. Here is what I have right now:



Land
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
1 Spellskite
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

Instants and Sorceries
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sunlance

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest In Peace
2 Aven Mincensor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sunlance

I am likely to find room for another Spellskite in the sideboard, but possibly not. I am not happy with the amount of show and tell hate, but ya gotta cut somewhere.

[gmantle31]

Four is almost certainly too many Spellskites. Here is what I have right now:

Sideboard
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Rest In Peace
2 Aven Mincensor
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sunlance

I am likely to find room for another Spellskite in the sideboard, but possibly not. I am not happy with the amount of show and tell hate, but ya gotta cut somewhere.

Thank you for sharing your current list.

May I ask you some questions about your sideboard?
It seems that your meta is heavily loaded with combo decks, right? That would explain the 2 tutor & 3 canonists, and 1 amethyst.
Why do you run a singleton chalice? Against which specific match up do you bring it in?
Why do you choose to have 3 RIP and not 2 RIP + 1 relic of progenitus? People usually say it's better to have a 2/1 split because you don't want to draw a 2nd or 3rd RIP (and relic can be cycled).
Are you satisfied with your side board against BUG and JUND decks? I don't see Wilt-Leaf Liege for example.
Also, you don't run Catclysm in your side and have only one O-ring, so how do you handle Planeswalkers?


And thanks again for that interesting discussion.

[monovfox]

I don't think spellskite belongs in the aggro list. It belongs more in the midgame stax-like lists.

[Mastikor]

Hey guys, DnT is great. I placed 2nd in small local tourney last weekend, going 5-1. My matchups were:

MUD 0:2 :(
Rebels 2:1 :)
Team America 1:0
Grixis delver 2:1
Goblins 2:1
Grixis delver 2:0

My list was:

4 Mother
4 Thalia
4 Mystic
3 Revoker
3 Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara
2 Crusader
2 Mindcensor
4 Vial
4 Swords
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
10 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Port
---
2 E. Tutor
4 RiP
1 Cannonist
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Relic-warder
1 Crusader
1 SoFI
1 Oring
1 Honor of the Pure

Maindeck was great, sideboard was a bit sketchy. I'm going to a big tourney next week and I'm looking to improve it. Honor was meant for mirrior (which I didn't face) and random decks like goblins or maverick. I never saw it, and I guess it's not worth a slot. It was a flashy idea.
One thing I'm thinking of is a Moat in SB. It would wreck elves and similar decks althought it might be too slow. What do you think? Is it too crazy? Consider that my list runs 8 fliers. What about Ghostly prison at least? Or what do you think is the best against the pointy-ear matchup?

[dsck]

When I had trouble with Elves I experimented different options and found Grafdigger's Cage to be worth it in the SB.

[BlkdOutGsxR]

I have a question regarding aether Vial activation.

At the end of my opponents turn, I activate aether vial with 1 counter on it, opponent states no effects, I play mother. Does the turn end there, or does my opponent have priority once again to cast path/burn/spot removal before my untap step?

Another interaction I was unsure about that recently happened was at the end of my opponents 2nd main phase I vialed in a flickerwisp, bouncing my Batterskull. My opponent has lilianna on board with 4 counters on it, can they activate Liliana if I state "at end of 2nd main activate aether vial" and they state "no effects"? Thanks in advance for the responses.

[from Cairo]

I have a question regarding aether Vial activation.

At the end of my opponents turn, I activate aether vial with 1 counter on it, opponent states no effects, I play mother. Does the turn end there, or does my opponent have priority once again to cast path/burn/spot removal before my untap step?

They do have the opportunity to place instants/abilities on the stack before your untap. Your opponent is presumably indicating that they are done with their turn, passing an empty stack. If you want to use Vial during the End step, then you are placing something onto the stack, the opponent first has the opportunity respond to the activation. Then after resolution, each player must pass an empty stack (here, rather than indicating no spells or effects, is where they could say Bolt/Plow the newly Vialed creature) to move to the final step, Clean up.


Another interaction I was unsure about that recently happened was at the end of my opponents 2nd main phase I vialed in a flickerwisp, bouncing my Batterskull. My opponent has lilianna on board with 4 counters on it, can they activate Liliana if I state "at end of 2nd main activate aether vial" and they state "no effects"? Thanks in advance for the responses.

Same thing, both players have to pass an priority without spells or abilities on the stack in order to move to the next step. So if your opponent is indicating they've taken all actions that they'd like to in Main phase 2 and you're indicating that you want to put something on the stack, the can decline to have a response to the action ("no effects") it resolves, but still will have the option to use actions or pass an empty stack again indicating end of step.

[BlkdOutGsxR]

Thanks for the reply. That clears up a lot of confusion for me!

[atopebenidorm]

Hi guys, I splashing red for imperial recruiter, he is a copy of goblin matron!.

I cut some plains and canopy´s and add +1 cavern, because recruiter is a human.



1 Fiend Hunter
1 Grim lavamancer
2 Aven Mincensor
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of corondor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia
4 Mother of runes
4 Imperial recruiter

4 Swords TP

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Arid Mesa 1 Mountain 4 Plains 3 Karakas 2 Cavern of souls 4 Rishadan Port 4 wasteland

What´s your opinion about the list? Is competitive? I will play next tournament and suggestions are welcome

[klaus]

Hi guys, I splashing red for imperial recruiter, he is a copy of goblin matron!.

I cut some plains and canopy´s and add +1 cavern, because recruiter is a human.

1 Fiend Hunter
1 Grim lavamancer
2 Aven Mincensor
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of corondor
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia
4 Mother of runes
4 Imperial recruiter

4 Swords TP

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Arid Mesa 1 Mountain 4 Plains 3 Karakas 2 Cavern of souls 4 Rishadan Port 4 wasteland

What´s your opinion about the list? Is competitive? I will play next tournament and suggestions are welcome

I kind of like the idea :) however 4 might be excessive. Beyond its tutor function his 1/1 body has no impact - UNLESS you've got a piece of equipment online. Remember Matron's are usually 2/2+ due to Chieftains and the likes, can be cheaper to cast, due to Warlords, plus enhance Incinerators (just to name a few extra synergies) - so in order to increase the chance of equipment being online when he comes down you either up the equipment count (not an option imo), or decrease the amount of Recruiters, which I recommend. If you go with 1-3 however, the splash, which you introduce becomes less feasible, simply due to fewer cards it supports, though going with 2 Lavamancers could be an option. I tend to see this guy as more of a SB card however (obv. excellent against Swarm Aggro).
Hm, on second thought Lavamancer will never shine in DnT as it does in most other common archetypes, since we do not grow our graveyard (i.e. as cantrip decks do), likely resulting in an ammunition shortage more often than not.
Sooo, I get the impression that the red splash could fall into the category "Danger of Cool Things". I'm still interested in your testing results, so make sure to drop us a line, when he keeps on winning games :)

[Mastikor]

Interested in results as well. I'd run a singleton Magus of the Moon too.

regards

[th3 w1z4rd]

I have a question regarding aether Vial activation.

At the end of my opponents turn, I activate aether vial with 1 counter on it, opponent states no effects, I play mother. Does the turn end there, or does my opponent have priority once again to cast path/burn/spot removal before my untap step?

Another interaction I was unsure about that recently happened was at the end of my opponents 2nd main phase I vialed in a flickerwisp, bouncing my Batterskull. My opponent has lilianna on board with 4 counters on it, can they activate Liliana if I state "at end of 2nd main activate aether vial" and they state "no effects"? Thanks in advance for the responses.

I'm pretty sure the answer to the second question is no because planeswalker abilities can only be played as sorceries, therefore it is not like putting an instant on the stack.

[Oreia]

I'm pretty sure the answer to the second question is no because planeswalker abilities can only be played as sorceries, therefore it is not like putting an instant on the stack.

In fact, when you activate an ability or casts a spell when his opponents announces that he is passing that phase, he regains priority and phase remains the same (in this case, the second main phase) then he will be able to activate liliana's hability since he continues in the second main phase him.

[FieryBalrog]

Another interaction I was unsure about that recently happened was at the end of my opponents 2nd main phase I vialed in a flickerwisp, bouncing my Batterskull. My opponent has lilianna on board with 4 counters on it, can they activate Liliana if I state "at end of 2nd main activate aether vial" and they state "no effects"? Thanks in advance for the responses.

Yes, they can. After Vial resolves, the active player (your opponent) regains priority, and it would still be 2nd main phase. That is because any time a spell or ability resolves, the active player gains priority. Only when you and your opponent both pass on an empty stack does the step or phase end.

If you want your opponent to be unable to use Liliana's abilities after you Vial, you need to Vial on their end step.

[H]

I have been really pleased with running an Ethersworn Canonist maindeck. I was even considering going up to two, while still keeping another one in the board. This might be gross overkill though, but my small local meta is usually pretty combo heavy.

One interaction I hadn't really considered is the Cannonist plus Mother which effectively turns off their spot removal. Also, it can be Vialed in response to the first removal spell, if they are going for a double removal to kill a Mother plan.

Here is what I ran last Friday:

4 Aether Vial
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother Of Runes
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Karakas
9 Plains

Board:

1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Cataclysm
1 Warmth
1 Ethersword Canonist
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sunlance
2 Disenchant
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest In Peace

I didn't really like the feel of 3 Mangara and 4 Karakas. I realize the combo is good, but sometimes, it's just too slow I think. I will probably go back to a 2/3 split. That might be my spot for another Canonist and another Canopy.

I was once again unimpressed by Mindcensor. He might just not be good enough, except when he randomly blows people out, which I just don't think is often enough. I am looking at that cut to bring the 4th Stoneforge back to the main.

This was my first time playing Serra Avengers in here and I liked them well enough to keep the two in for now. I didn't miss the maindeck Revoker and I like not having to worry about that super awkward opener of a game 1 with double Revoker that you just don't know will even do anything against them, except being a bad Grizzly Bear.

With all the Red decks running around, I opted for Warmth in the board, over an Absolute Law. I felt like Law might not really cut it vs straight Burn, as they can still come to the face with it all (plus costs 3). Sphere of Law would be great, but costs far too much, at that point, you could run Conversion (although it is double White) and largely end their game.

I am looking forward to making some tweaks and running this again next week, even though I anticipate many a Sulfur Elemental will be waiting for me. I might try some number of Honor of the Pure in the board as a response. :tongue:

[from Cairo]

I like your proposed changes to your list IE trimming the Mangara and Aven for SFM #4 (and Canonist #2). Dropping a Karakas for a Canopy seems fine as well. I counted twice and your base list seems to be at 61. Personally, I would advise delegating Canonist #2 or Fiend Hunter #1 to your SB to trim the list to 60.

I'm not a fan of 61 card decks in general, but given the tightness of the list and the importance of seeing given cards (Thalia, SFM, Vial) in given matches, this is among the last archetypes that I would give the nod to a 61 card list.

[H]

I like your proposed changes to your list IE trimming the Mangara and Aven for SFM #4 (and Canonist #2). Dropping a Karakas for a Canopy seems fine as well. I counted twice and your base list seems to be at 61. Personally, I would advise delegating Canonist #2 or Fiend Hunter #1 to your SB to trim the list to 60.

I'm not a fan of 61 card decks in general, but given the tightness of the list and the importance of seeing given cards (Thalia, SFM, Vial) in given matches, this is among the last archetypes that I would give the nod to a 61 card list.

Yeah, that was just an outright mistake and me not double counting. What happened was I was going to cut the Mindcensor, but it ended up in the deck anyway it seems. I never run 61, so it certainly wasn't an actual choice.

I might go for the Canonist over the Fiend Hunter then, I think I like that change and bring the Hunter to sideboard.

[Barook]

How would D&T perform in the current MODO meta? Basically, you have:

Lots of
- S&T decks (both Sneak & Show and Omnitell variants)
- Storm combo
- Elves
- Miracles
- BUG Shardless

and to a lesser extent:
- Punishing Jund
- Black Maverick
- Painter
- Dredge
- RUG

I just wish a playset of Ports wasn't 400 bucks online... :rolleyes:

[Finn]

How would D&T perform in the current MODO meta? Basically, you have:

Lots of
- S&T decks (both Sneak & Show and Omnitell variants)
- Storm combo
- Elves
- Miracles
- BUG Shardless

and to a lesser extent:
- Punishing Jund
- Black Maverick
- Painter
- Dredge
- RUG

I just wish a playset of Ports wasn't 400 bucks online... :rolleyes:
Here, Barook. You can decide for yourself. From best matchup to worst of those you presented:

(
RUG
BUG Shardless
Miracles
)
; These are very good. They are all grinding with plenty of opportunities for a good player to force the opponent into a losing series of plays/trades sufficient to win well above 50%.

(
Sneak Show and Tell
Dredge
Storm
)
;These are all pretty good. They require just a few tight plays to steal games. The specific build of both sides plays a major role, as this deck has excellent hate available and common in most builds, while the opponents have excellent hate also available, but far less frequent. D&T's primary game plan is still very effective here, and I am personally well above 50% for these matchups also. But I happen to pack more anti-combo hate than most.

(
Black Maverick
Omnitell
Painter
)
;I have a spotty record against all of these. I never seem to have enough removal/hate for Painter decks, but because of the nature of D&T, I squeeze out some games anyway. Omnitell demands that you have the right cards in hand while the rest of them do next to nothing sorta like Solidarity back in the day. If you have them, you will probably win even if you don't play especially well. If you don't, you simply lose. Black Maverick is a little better than the others, but it often comes down to who can get the equipment working first. That is true for Stoneblade decks too, but D&T is much better than those at attaining that. Not so with Black Mav. I clump these together because they all put D&T slightly out of its comfort zone. It's tools are not as effective as they are against most decks, but it can still follow it's primary game plan.

(
Elves
Punishing Jund
)
;These guys have D&T's number. I would not want to play D&T in an environment dominated by either of these.

[H]

(
Elves
Punishing Jund
)
;These guys have D&T's number. I would not want to play D&T in an environment dominated by either of these.

Have you tried Imposing Sovereign for Elves? I have not, as not many people play Elves in my meta. I am not sure if it does enough, but it seems like it could slow them down some, but I am not sure that's really enough.

[Mr. Froggy]

Picked up my last Mangara needed to complete my deck today. :)

Deck is conpletely finished now. Now onto taxing people!

[emt37]

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Fiend Hunter
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Sunlance
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Gut Shot
SB: 2 Rest in Peace



Yo guys, what do you tihnk about my list? I'm kinda concerned about my side :P

[from Cairo]

<stock list -2 Aven +1 Mirran/Wisp>

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Sunlance
SB: 2 Spellskite
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 Gut Shot
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

Yo guys, what do you tihnk about my list? I'm kinda concerned about my side :P

I don't know what field you are preping for, but for average metas I don't feel MBT is needed. Otherwise your SB is also fairly close to the accepted "optimal" configuration.

Only differences one usually sees are:
-3 MBT
-1 Sunlance
-1 Spellskite

+2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
+1 Leonin Relic-Warder
+1 GY hate
+1 Flex (Jitte, SoX&Y, Cataclysm)

[emt37]

I don't know what field you are preping for, but for average metas I don't feel MBT is needed. Otherwise your SB is also fairly close to the accepted "optimal" configuration.

Only differences one usually sees are:
-3 MBT
-1 Sunlance
-1 Spellskite

+2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
+1 Leonin Relic-Warder
+1 GY hate
+1 Flex (Jitte, SoX&Y, Cataclysm)


Yeah it's kinda meta-dependent, Italy is filled with ANT, Elves, Miracle and BUG decks, I was more concerned about the quantity of these sideboard cards.

Also yeah, I want to put somewhere 2 Wilt-Leaf: Golgari Charm is such a bitch and Honor of the Pure is too suscettible to Decay. I really don't know what to think about it, I guess the only thing I can do is try to put 2 honor of the pure maindeck.
Gotta take out something.

[Gheizen64]

Would you play RiP main? The card is so amazing nowadays, rend DRS/Goyf/Ooze useless, slow down storm combo, deactivate lingering souls, mongooses, snapcaster etc...

[Luca Grease]

DnT on stream at SCG vs UWR Delver. Just threw game one by not "vialing" in a batterskull in response to Delvers revealing Stifle off the top. So infuriating, especially cause I saw it coming from a mile away... "drop the batterskull on your turn while he's tapped out, drop it on your turn... damn! Ok you've seen the stifle now, vial it in before he draws it!"... Sigh

[Myelectronicdays]

Yep, just saw that misplay go down. heartwreching.. prob cost him game 1

[Luca Grease]

Not probably, 100% certainly. The opponent was also low on life and one or two batterskull swings would have been insormuntable.

With Sneak 'n Show back on top and Reanimator placing well lately, I wonder if it's time to go back to 4 Karakases, in light of the new legend rule...

[Finn]

Aside from the financial cost of a fourth Karakas, which is obviously substantial, I never agreed with the reasoning behind cutting one. Use four. It is a major advantage against lots of unfair decks and makes your Mangaras better.

[H]

(
RUG
BUG Shardless
Miracles
)
; These are very good. They are all grinding with plenty of opportunities for a good player to force the opponent into a losing series of plays/trades sufficient to win well above 50%.


I only got to play a single game vs UW Miracles the other day, but it went pretty miserably for me. I ended up under a Counterbalance, although I locked out SDT with a Revoker, I ended up having all my creatures either swept by Terminus or hit by Swords. Jace and thena few turns later, an Entreat, EOT, ended the game.

I did miss Vial most of the game, but I am curious your approach to this matchup. I felt I could hold him down on mana, but they only run 4 duals and a ton of basics. Even having two Ports most of the game had almost no impact. Granted I have little experience with this deck, but I am unsure how to really beat that deck reliably.

[Finn]

Hope this helps.

(Matchup analysis by Lormador, Updated 8/27/13)

The three (four) most important interactions in this matchup (pre-board) are the following.
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben with Karakas behind her.
Equipment on the board.
Active Aether Vial.
Aven Mindcensor.


In addition, it's very good to keep a 'surprise' in reserve that can deal with a 4/4 Angel token and get past it for a few points of damage, such as a Fiend Hunter, or of course Flickerwisp out of an Aether Vial.

The way Miracles (and I'm usually working with the RIP-Helm variant) is going to win the game is either via that combo, Jace ultimate, or Angel tokens. The direst threat is actually the Angel tokens. Jace usually just brainstorms as much as possible until he's dealt with, and the combo depends on several moving parts, all of which are subject to Thalia taxation, being Revokered, and remaining in play through Flickerwisp. It's not impossible to pull off and is a threat to be aware of, but mostly what one has to deal with is Angel tokens. Even three of them is a problem, most of the time, given that one suffers a series of Terminus spells beforehand.

I'd put my tips against Miracles into this list.
Above all, don't overextend into a Terminus. If at any time Terminus goes down and you don't have another threat, you're lost.
Most of the time, you should aim Port at white mana. Be mindful of priority in various stages of the game against Top.
Try hard to avoid having to hardcast Batterskull. The opponent will try to force this so the equipment can be countered.
Against an active Top with a Vial, fake the tip a few times to absorb an opponent's mana. Once the Vial resolves, if a Revoker comes out there's no more opportunity to do so in response.
Their manabase is fetchland-heavy, and they may also bring Enlightened Tutor. Aven Mindcensor is a very key player.

[10/4/12 - I have found this matchup much better than 50/50 preboard and at least 50/50 postboard. You do not need or want to commit all your threats to the board in case of Terminus. Revoker on Divining Top with Mother of Runes protection is pretty darn strong. That deck wilts in the face of Thalia mixed with any other mana denial. And Mangara lock is at its best here. Just keep an eye on how many threats you are committing. If you lose two creatures to a Terminus two times in game one, you are probably still in good shape. - Finn]

[Patrunkenphat7]

Yes, this is a blatant attempt for me to improve my game against this deck... But I'm wondering what percentage of Death and Taxes players run Mindbreak Trap in the SB?

[Finn]

Better than half I think. Usually as a 2-of (and not a "2-off", because that phrase makes no fucking sense). Trap is actually under debate at the moment, but with the Balistrade Spy deck adding yet another flimsy turn 1 win, it is gaining acceptance.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Better than half I think. Usually as a 2-of (and not a "2-off", because that phrase makes no fucking sense). Trap is actually under debate at the moment, but with the Balistrade Spy deck adding yet another flimsy turn 1 win, it is gaining acceptance.

Hmmm... That's interesting, I didn't see a single one the last 15 pages.

[Finn]

The best source of info and discussion for this deck is actually the Salvation page. It is too much work for me to keep echoing ideas across the two. There's a link in the OP for this thread.

[Tylert]

My working place internet's policy blocks MTGS :( but it lets me post here, so here we go.

Was trying to find some good answers to TNN. I guess lots of people will try it at the BoM and Currently D&T can't do anything against it except racing.

Obviously Serra avenger seems better than Mirran crusader against it because it flies over it.

What about sideboard cards that could get rid of it and be played?

i was thinking about "Marrow shards" since it can be free. What do you think about it?
any other idea?

[lordofthepit]

i was thinking about "Marrow shards" since it can be free. What do you think about it?
any other idea?

I think it won't work as a solution to True Name Nemesis.

[klaus]

My working place internet's policy blocks MTGS :( but it lets me post here, so here we go.

Was trying to find some good answers to TNN. I guess lots of people will try it at the BoM and Currently D&T can't do anything against it except racing.

Obviously Serra avenger seems better than Mirran crusader against it because it flies over it.

What about sideboard cards that could get rid of it and be played?

i was thinking about "Marrow shards" since it can be free. What do you think about it?
any other idea?

Tariff, Wing Shards, Circle of Protection Blue, and Runed Halo.

[Tylert]

I think it won't work as a solution to True Name Nemesis.

If it 's in Merfolk yeah, too much lors around :(
However any other build will probably play it along a SFM package and will probably fetch Jitte before anything else vs us.
In that case, it's relevant :)
To be noted that marrow shards is also an answer to Belcher decks or TES / ANT playing Empty the warrens, or even young pyromancer tokens...
That's why I thought about this card as a possible sideboard card that is relevant against more things than just TNN.


Tariff, Wing Shards, Circle of Protection Blue, and Runed Halo.

Wing shards is too expensive i guess.
Runed halo seems like the best answer but its still a non permanent answer.
Circle of protection blue Ok. seems legit. might come handy in some matchups and is an enchantement (That matters a lot in D&T).
Tariff, i don't like it :) you might have to sacrifice a creature yourself, and if there is a delver or another creature, it may not even work.

Thanks for the answers thought.

[Luca Grease]

If it 's in Merfolk yeah, too much lors around :(
However any other build will probably play it along a SFM package and will probably fetch Jitte before anything else vs us.
In that case, it's relevant :)


True name nemesis can't be damaged, so no, it's not relevant

[Tylert]

True name nemesis can't be damaged, so no, it's not relevant

Ahah... my bad :p was focused on the not targetable part of protection from a player :)

[Zombie]

Pauper tech:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=159148&type=card

[klaus]

Tariff, i don't like it


You forget that it works wonders against fatty decks, such as Reanimator, SnT.

[PendelSteven]

You forget that it works wonders against fatty decks, such as Reanimator, SnT.

Ooh. This means it can also be in the sideboard of a Junk Elves deck: Reanimator is one of its worst matchups and SnT is not a good one either.

[lordofthepit]

Ooh. This means it can also be in the sideboard of a Junk Elves deck: Reanimator is one of its worst matchups and SnT is not a good one either.

Pretty sure if Elves needed that type of effect, it would just play Diabolic Edict instead, especially since black is its secondary color.

[danyul]

A bit narrow, but Celestial Flare is an option against the new ProgeniFish. Also you elf scrubs should take the elf talk to the elf forum and leave these non-elf people alone!

[mrjumbo03]

Watching Eternal Weekend Stream right now, renowned Storm player Ari Lax piloting DnT! 4-0 in Round 5, and up a game against High Tide.

Now 5-0.

[Einherjer]

And he now advanced to 5-0. MonoW beats MonoU :D

Greetings

[mrjumbo03]

Shahar Shenhar goes to 8-1 in BoM and in good shape going to day 2.

Interesting adjustment with the deck, taking into account Nemesis.

[Einherjer]

Shahar Shenhar goes to 8-1 in BoM and in good shape going to day 2.

Interesting adjustment with the deck, taking into account Nemesis.

For those who don't know what he is talking about:

Swords of Fire and Ice Mainboard
and
Ratched Bomb Sideboard

Greetings

[mrjumbo03]

^Also Avenger back in the main and I think back up to 4 Flickerwisps (not sure), while Mangara is dropped.

Solution to Nemesis: "SoFI or just fly over them."

Ratchet bomb has been used by the Danish since a couple of tournaments back, but I don't really like it seeing as you are a permanent-based deck so you'll probably get hit bad too.

Interested to know if Unexpectedly Absent is being tried in the SB.

[Luca Grease]

link to the BOM stream?

[fluuu]

link to the BOM stream?

http://www.lotusnoir.info/

[Luca Grease]

http://www.lotusnoir.info/

I had tried that, but it won't work for me :(

[AriLax]

I was boarding Meekstone (with E Tutors) and Micah was playing Crackdown to beat Nemesis (1 mana versus not locking down Flickerwisp or dying to Ancient Grudge). I only played against the card twice on the day, and both times I ended up racing it. I can't imagine that Nemesis is easy to beat out of a Stoneforge Mystic deck, but unless it can pick up a weapon I don't think it's a huge deal to beat.

[mrjumbo03]

I was boarding Meekstone (with E Tutors) and Micah was playing Crackdown to beat Nemesis (1 mana versus not locking down Flickerwisp or dying to Ancient Grudge). I only played against the card twice on the day, and both times I ended up racing it. I can't imagine that Nemesis is easy to beat out of a Stoneforge Mystic deck, but unless it can pick up a weapon I don't think it's a huge deal to beat.

Before anything else, congratulations on winning! And going through the tournament like that (losing only 3 games I think), despite this your first time picking up the deck, is a testament to your skill.

Seeing as the top 8 lists aren't up yet. Can you post your list over here so we can nitpick, specially the sideboard? With the uptick in popularity of DnT this weekend (2 decks in the top4 of EW, Shahar Shenhar and Thomas Enevoldsen doing good in day1 of BoM), will you still be playing it in GP:DC? If yes, any possible changes if ever?

[klaus]

BOM news: DnT kicks out UWr Miracles and grabs a top8 slot ;)
Cataclysm VS 3 Angel tokens followed by a Flickrwisp in G3 gets there!

[warai]

Yes but Yohan, the miracles player, could have just waited to have a force in hand and post pone the Entreat activation on last game. He loss all his angels to Cataclysm....

On friday he made also another mistake on the french legacy cup finals. He played a Terminus with a TNN/Goyf/wtv on the other side of the board with no counter backup, he was still on 18 or something life.

Miracles is a really hard to play deck and mistakes happen..

[mrjumbo03]

Miracles is such a hard deck to play for long stretches because of the number of things you need to do every turn, moreso when you're in round 15 (and Yohan, making it all the way to the finals in the French Legacy Open adds to the number of games he has played this weekend). The commentators even noted that Yohan missed his draw step after the Entreat with Top on his turn.

Also, looks like Shahar Shenhar also made it, so there are 2 players representing DnT in the top8 of BoM!

Add the 2 top4's (and a champion to boot) in Eternal Weekend, makes for a very successful weekend for DnT.

I reckon DnT won't be a good choice for the upcoming GP with all the exposure it just got.

Back to BoM, I'm hoping our 2 hopefuls can dodge the Elves player in the top 8, such a terrible matchup.

[Mr. Froggy]

D&T is top8ing all big tournaments for a while now. Good thing I have it sleeved up!

[lavafrogg]

I bet Finn is beaming right now.

[mrjumbo03]

The BoM decklist is up. Thomas and Shahar played the same 75, interesting changes.

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Sunlance

[Luca Grease]

The BoM decklist is up. Thomas and Shahar played the same 75, interesting changes.

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Sunlance

sad to see Mangara go, but the extra fliers are probably a good idea right now, and I guess that the old wizard is a little too slow/susceptible to removal against most decks. The S&T matchup gets much worse without him and only 3 Karakas, though, as does Reanimator. Both decks are on the rise.

Interested in hearing about SoFI, and whether it pulled its weight or not. Looks like Cataclysm is here to stay despite Thomas' words after GB Strasbourg, and I guess it's doubly needed against control now that Mangara is gone. Then again no Mindbreak Traps probably bit him in the ass against Storm in the quarterfinals.

Ratchet bomb still needs an explaination imo: it's easy to imagine applications but hard to believe it's worth the collateral damage on a regular basis, considering DnT is also a permanent based deck.

Finally, and this is obviously up for debate, I'd rather swap the miser Relic for a Grafdigger's Cage, since it provides even quicker utility against Reanimator/Tin Fins/Dredge, and is a killer against Elves, while only really being worse against RUG/Jund/BUG, where we already have plenty of good sideboard options and not a lot of stuff to take out, aside from being much better match-ups anyway. Throw a couple of E-tutors in there (maybe shaving an O-ring and a Ratchet), and our board suddenly looks a whole lot stronger against unfair decks, while not sacrificing much against the fair ones (where our main board is already pretty good).

Just my 2 cents, looking forward to hearing from the big boys!

[Finn]

I bet Finn is beaming right now.Hell yes...

Ratchet Bomb hits Elves and goblin tokens both after they have gone off. TE studies and edits his deck for the metagame. His choices next month will be different again. I don't see Mangara going away any time soon. But I will say that the old Australian aboriginal is best against the decks this deck is classically best against. That means that in environments that are affected by D+T (and have appropriate hate) he is not as good.

[Luca Grease]

Hell yes...

Ratchet Bomb hits Elves and goblin tokens both after they have gone off. TE studies and edits his deck for the metagame. His choices next month will be different again. I don't see Mangara going away any time soon. But I will say that the old Australian aboriginal is best against the decks this deck is classically best against. That means that in environments that are affected by D+T (and have appropriate hate) he is not as good.

Well, by "gone" I didn't mean "not ever going to be played in this deck again". Old favorites come and go (Cataclysm, SoFI, Avenger, etc), but right now, it seems like he might be sitting on the bench for a while in the near future. It's safe to say that the cat is out of the bag by now, and people will come prepared for DnT at big tournaments for the forseeable future. I do worry about the dent this puts in our Sneak n' Show and reanimator MU's, however.

One thing I don't understand in the BoM's lists is the miser Cavern of Souls. I liked it in the GP list running 14 maindeck humans (6 of which requiring double white), but at a lowly 9 count (with only one featuring WW in its casting cost), it doesn't seem like such a good idea, especially since we are now running 7 non-humans requiring WW. The perk of being able to land an uncounterable Thalia or Mystic every now and then doesn't seem worth the increased screw risk. Just throw a Canopy/Plains/Flagstones (if you're running cataclysm) in its place I say.
Incidentally, I certainly don't mind seeing our x/1 humans count go down...

[Quasim0ff]

The fliers and SoFI are for TNN.

They said so themselves.

[LegacyDan]

*loses his entire collection, D+T finally makes it to DTB. FML.

[Barbed Blightning]

The fliers and SoFI are for TNN.

They said so themselves.

Figured likewise.

Don't understand the single cavern either; wouldn't it be better as a Karakas?

[DavidHernandez]

Figured likewise.

Don't understand the single cavern either; wouldn't it be better as a Karakas?

Interesting. I find the one Cavern to be fabulous. I'm never sorry to see it. TWO might be better if you can afford to drop a Canopy or a Plains, but I still find the one-of to be great.

Dave

[Nizmox]

If anyone is still looking for the list that Ari Lax won the Eternal Championship with I found it here...
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5957&d=234561

[AriLax]

With the uptick in popularity of DnT this weekend (2 decks in the top4 of EW, Shahar Shenhar and Thomas Enevoldsen doing good in day1 of BoM), will you still be playing it in GP:DC? If yes, any possible changes if ever?

No idea. The deck is clearly good, but I'm expecting the story of the weekend in DC to be Stoneforge + Nemesis, which is a nightmare for this deck to deal with.

As for changes, Mindcensor was fairly mediocre. It's probably fine but replaceable. Keep in mind that I also only played against one non-Show combo deck. I also don't like the Serra Avengers from Thomas' list. They seem to only make winning games you can normally win (they just have a Nemesis and no equipment) very easy. I can get behind a 4th Flickerwisp as that card has actual effects on the board though, and Ratchet Bomb seems awesome as it also helps against Elves and is not unreasonable to board against decks that are all 1/x and 2/x dudes plus Nemesis.

[Tormod]

Pauper tech:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=159148&type=card

Was this post invisible or was I the only one that saw it?

I was actually thinking about this card and how it would be so good D&T right now. Dug up a couple from my boxes of old odds and ends. They will be going in right away.

[Luca Grease]

No idea. The deck is clearly good, but I'm expecting the story of the weekend in DC to be Stoneforge + Nemesis, which is a nightmare for this deck to deal with.



Manriki-Gusari might solve that problem. They won't attack with an equipped TNN before turn 5 anyway (often later because of waste, port, Thalia), which gives you plenty of time to set up. It's too early to say, but I'm not terribly worried about SFM control decks, TNN or not. Sure, an active jitte destroys our deck, but historically, those kind of decks have a hard time getting their game going against DnT. Also, keep in mind that Aven Mindcensor is great against opposing SFM decks.

[whienot]

True-Name Nemesis got you down?

Edit: I see Crackdown is being discussed already.

I guess Abrupt Decay is a card. It also doesn't stop a vigilant Nemesis, or an opponent Maze of Ithing their man end-of-combat, but D&T already has the tools to stop Equips & Maze.

Tariff is also an option, but then you're relying on mana denial and/or opponents playing into it.

[iostream]

Was this post invisible or was I the only one that saw it?

I was actually thinking about this card and how it would be so good D&T right now. Dug up a couple from my boxes of old odds and ends. They will be going in right away.

It seems really slow, even slower than it normally would be because of D&T's own taxation effects.

[Barbed Blightning]

It seems really slow, even slower than it normally would be because of D&T's own taxation effects.

Well if you are against elves you wouldn't play Thalia, would you? Card seems semi legit to me