[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Well if you are against elves you wouldn't play Thalia, would you? Card seems semi legit to me

Against Elves, it sounds reasonable, but still possibly slow since you sometimes don't survive to turn 3. However, the card was originally suggested as a response to TNN. Against TNN/Stoneforge decks, you almost surely would not be siding out Thalia, and that's where it seems slow. You need to hit the window between when they resolve Nemesis and when they suit it up with a sword or something. With regards to TNN without equipment, it does not seem hard for us to race it. Post board, we get to side in our own pro-blue equipment like SoFaI. So then Holy Light does not seem useful.

[Tormod]

It seems really slow, even slower than it normally would be because of D&T's own taxation effects.

... because ratchet bomb is so much faster? You could take out some elves turn 3, or even a True-Name Nemesis on turn 5!


Well if you are against elves you wouldn't play Thalia, would you? Card seems semi legit to me

Here's a man who gets it.

[Barbed Blightning]

I mean if we're look for "serious" TNN hate, I'd say Meekstone or Wing Shards. Ultimately, though, nothing will fit perfectly, since we're mono W. Y'all need some black up in here if you actually want to hate out your x/1 matches.

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... because ratchet bomb is so much faster? You could take out some elves turn 3, or even a True-Name Nemesis on turn 5!
Ratchet Bomb is also very obviously too slow. I don't know of any solutions which are not too slow or have the property that they sting us at the same time (e.g. Meekstone).

[MrShine]

If TNN starts to be a problem, skewing towards flyers and SoFaI actually makes Moat look like a solid option... it straight colds a lot of decks (as we all know) and also gives us a slight glimmer of hope in the losing war vs Elves. 4 is a lot of mana, though...

...this is outside of splashing for other colours, of course, but I won't speak of that heresy here.

EDIT: Super Secret Tech! Crovax, Ascendant Hero. Derp.

[Finn]

Folks, think about this logically. -1/-1 effects are not the way to go at all. TNN is a much greater issue in the matchups where it is EQUIPPED . In those same cases (and also against Merfolk), Holy Light does exactly bubcus. Next idea.

Marble Titan is a card. No more Abrupt Decay for Crackdown (which is cute but not a long-term solution). I doubt the Titan is the best solution either. Proactive solutions with broad application are almost always the way to go, and this guy costs a million mana for a minimal effect. Plus, good decks play good cards, and this one ain't.

Wing Shards has been mentioned, but let me tell you that leaving three mana open with this deck in case the opponent attacks is both telegraphy at its finest and devastating when the opponent picks up on it. I have been on both sides of that one. Bad times.

Runed Halo has been floated, but I dunno. I just can't see bringing it in against something with as many threats as the decks with this card will have. And it is not proactive. Anyone have experience with Story Circle? It seems worse than Crackdown.

[Patrunkenphat7]

So have you guys pretty much decided that Sword of Fire and Ice is better than Sword of Body and Mind?

[Barbed Blightning]

Folks, think about this logically. -1/-1 effects are not the way to go at all. TNN is a much greater issue in the matchups where it is EQUIPPED . In those same cases (and also against Merfolk), Holy Light does exactly bubcus. Next idea.

Marble Titan is a card. No more Abrupt Decay for Crackdown (which is cute but not a long-term solution). I doubt the Titan is the best solution either. Proactive solutions with broad application are almost always the way to go, and this guy costs a million mana for a minimal effect. Plus, good decks play good cards, and this one ain't.

Wing Shards has been mentioned, but let me tell you that leaving three mana open with this deck in case the opponent attacks is both telegraphy at its finest and devastating when the opponent picks up on it. I have been on both sides of that one. Bad times.

Runed Halo has been floated, but I dunno. I just can't see bringing it in against something with as many threats as the decks with this card will have. And it is not proactive. Anyone have experience with Story Circle? It seems worse than Crackdown.

I fooled with Story Circle back around Dark Ascension-era Legacy, but always found it slow and too White intensive. Manriki Gusari would be more useful, imo

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[from Cairo]

So have you guys pretty much decided that Sword of Fire and Ice is better than Sword of Body and Mind?

I think Sword of Fire and Ice provides more utility than Sword of Body and Mind. It's triggers are stronger, thus on an evasive threat it generates more powerful effects. There are match ups and board states where fetching Sword of Fire and Ice could be preferable to Jitte, namely against control and combo decks, where the Sword will close the game faster as far as damage per turn goes than Jitte or Sword of Body and Mind. It has the upside of cantripping you into more disruption, while not risking facilitating things like Past in Flames or Reanimate. As a 3rd piece of equipment I think it has larger impact against a wider range of decks - providing Protection from Baleful Strix on our fliers and being able to use the trigger to remove anything but Goyf against Shardless BUG is valuable; against Goblins it's very strong both getting through damage and controlling their critical mass of guys; it's trigger is also powerful against Maverick or the mirror to gain Mother of Runes advantage, etc.

The two strategies I prefer Sword of Body and Mind against are Merfolk and Green-based Goyf/Knight of the Reliquary (Junk/Bant) type decks. Against these match ups the utilizing the Wolf token to provide a new body to equip the Sword on the defensive, providing pseudo-Vigilance out of one Creature card is decent value. Also the creatures that you're concerned about in these matches generally grow out of shock range pretty quickly.

I think in most metagames Sword of Fire and Ice is going to preform better.

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TNN is a much greater issue in the matchups where it is EQUIPPED.
Maybe the correct approach is to forget about killing or locking down TNN and just go around it with Manriki-Gusari and SoFaI. If we have either of those pieces available, we should be off to the races.

[Luca Grease]

Maybe the correct approach is to forget about killing or locking down TNN and just go around it with Manriki-Gusari and SoFaI. If we have either of those pieces available, we should be off to the races.

I agree. Forget about horrible niche cards to deal with TNN specifically. Even if we find an acceptable one, I doubt TNN will take over the metagame to the point of demanding sideboard slots dedicated exclusively to it. We've already established that this card is not a huge problem in Merfolk, since it will actually slow down their aggro (they'll have to take out a lord to make room for it) to the point where we can simply race it with equipment.
That leaves us with blue based stoneblade decks, which are traditionally slow and struggle against DnT, especially the three color variants. If that archetype comes back, it's probably time to start packing Manriki Gusari in the SB.

I'm not that worried about Esper, but a U/W stoneblade deck with mostly basic lands utilizing Back to Basics (and possibly Pariah on TNN) might be nasty. I doubt it'd have sufficient game against combo to ever become a force in the meta, though. That's the beauty of legacy. If it weren't for those degenerate combo decks annihilating or storming you on turn 2-3, the fairest of all decks wouldn't be remotely playable...

[Barbed Blightning]

I agree. Forget about horrible niche cards to deal with TNN specifically. Even if we find an acceptable one, I doubt TNN will take over the metagame to the point of demanding sideboard slots dedicated exclusively to it. We've already established that this card is not a huge problem in Merfolk, since it will actually slow down their aggro (they'll have to take out a lord to make room for it) to the point where we can simply race it with equipment.
That leaves us with blue based stoneblade decks, which are traditionally slow and struggle against DnT, especially the three color variants. If that archetype comes back, it's probably time to start packing Manriki Gusari in the SB.

I'm not that worried about Esper, but a U/W stoneblade deck with mostly basic lands utilizing Back to Basics (and possibly Pariah on TNN) might be nasty. I doubt it'd have sufficient game against combo to ever become a force in the meta, though. That's the beauty of legacy. If it weren't for those degenerate combo decks annihilating or storming you on turn 2-3, the fairest of all decks wouldn't be remotely playable...

It'd be Pariah's Shield over Pariah the enchantment, but yeah. Probably just Equipment hate and racing them will suffice.

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[Tylert]

I like meekstone or any way to lock TNN with a permanent because you can flicker it with a flicker whisp for an alpha strike on your side if you have a vial at 3.

Runed halo can also be flickered so it's good.

However, Racing TNN with your equips while taking care of opponents equipements with relic warder seems like the most efficient way to win.
I'd play the more aggressive D&T (with mangara completely out or in the sideboard) because it's good vs TNN decks / Jund decks without lowering the combo match up (except maybe show and tell where mangara could be cheated thanks to S&T and be used to get rid of whatever was dropped on the other side of the table).

[Quasim0ff]

Well…

I don't play a lot of DnT (None at all, for the entirety of my life!), but I know Shenhar and Enevoldsen played several Serra Avenger + SoFI at BoM, simply due to the fact that there were TNN every-fucking-where down there.

[beebles]

I think you need black splash now for something like zealous persecution or engineered plague-this isn't a deck like goblins that can suicidally attack over and over again and still win. Or at a bare minimum sword of fire and ice md. Maybe even something like soltari priest to get in there....


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[Barook]

It'd be Pariah's Shield over Pariah the enchantment, but yeah. Probably just Equipment hate and racing them will suffice.

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Pariah's Shield is tutorable, but costs significantly more mana and can't be cast on your opponents' creatures for shenanigans.

I've finally picked up the Ports and now I'm able to play D&T on MODO (since that was my long-term plan anyway).

As far as TNN is concerned:

Aren't you worried that we get hit by the hate splash if -1/-1 effects start to run rampant?

[dsck]

Would you guys board out Sword of Fire and Ice vs Painter Servant decks?

[Barbed Blightning]

Would you guys board out Sword of Fire and Ice vs Painter Servant decks?

Yes it's the first thing to go

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[Luca Grease]

Yes it's the first thing to go

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Is that because the sword will automatically fall off the equipped creature if there is a servant naming blue (or red) in play? Otherwise it would seem pretty good against them.

[Barbed Blightning]

Is that because the sword will automatically fall off the equipped creature if there is a servant naming blue (or red) in play? Otherwise it would seem pretty good against them.

Precisely. It's too much of a liability. Feast and Famine would be better, if you run it.

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[MrShine]

Aren't you worried that we get hit by the hate splash if -1/-1 effects start to run rampant?

I think the move towards more solid bodies like Avenger help us mitigate this. My plan before TNN was released was to beef up the creature base slightly in a move to counter the increase in hate I was expecting, which is even more likely now that the deck has a couple more high profile finishes, not to mention the presence of you-know-who. Avenger, Crusader and Stoneforge are all resistant to the first -1/-1 (and if its Sulfur Elemental, actually get significantly better ;) ), and Avenger further helps resist P Fire, although we are still a complete dog to Jund without some serious modifications / luck, so that's a bit besides the point. Suffice to say, I think going back to Avengers helps more than it hurts.

Unfortunately, Mom, Revoker, Thalia and Flickerwisp are all too good to replace so we'll have to deal with the hate as it comes. Revoker, at least, dodges Dread of Night and Sulfur Elemental... FWIW, I don't play Mindcensor (never felt like I needed it, 3cmc is a lot for a 2/1), and cut Mangara down to 1 copy main (who often gets sided out anyway before hate can come in).

On the other topics -

I think Celestial Crusader is cool (Split Second is nice) but there is just no way I'm going to be happy leaving 4 mana open most of the time; I really want to be Port-ing aggressively as much as possible, which obviously ties up mana, and thus favour the lower curve in general (Avenger also is easier to cast when you are doing a bunch of stuff with your land turn after turn, which is another point for the beatstick).

^ The same argument applies for Wing Shards, and even though its old, as Finn said people will see it coming and there is no guarantee that we'll get more than a 1 for 1 from it anyway. I'd rather just play a Sunlance or Path if I'm worried about aggro and hope to beat out TNN by going over/through with fliers/SoFaI.

As for SoFaI, I'm still keeping it in the board to have a bit more consistency for G1s but I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting a bit more equipment main. Its good lategame, and if you're being locked out by removal, drawing a creature isn't going to help much either.

I'm not a fan of Ratchet Bomb... it's REALLY slow and threatens too much splash damage for my liking.

---

All in all I think we're still really well positioned as long as a large portion of people continue playing SnT, Storm and to a lesser degree tempo (RUG is definitely preferable to UWR). Still haven't tested extensively vs Esper or BUG so I can't say much about those.

It'll take more testing but Elves doesn't even seem like as bad a match as I expected; last week I vialed in a Canonist in response to Glimpse. Spicy. I think the key here is just having enough in the side that's good vs elves AND all the other unfair decks - Canonist is my MVP so far, and Grafdigger's Cage is growing on me. Avenger also flies over their dudes here, which is nice when you need a clock vs the somewhat inevitable NO or hardcast 'Hoof

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Also - Hello fellow D&Ters! I've been waiting to be able to grind with this deck for a while and I'm stoked on it. I think when its all said and done this is a really good deck in a good position in the meta. Long live monoW AetherVial!

[Barbed Blightning]

Looking for some honest input here, as I am undecided on the aggro or control versions of this deck. My list is as follows:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 vial
4 STP
4 sfm
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sofi

3 wisp
2 crusader
2 avenger
1 spells kite
1 mangara
1 sunlance

4 waste
4 port
4 karakas
10 snow covered plains

Sideboard:
2 e tutor
2 rip
2 canonist
2 liege
1 needle
1 relic warder
1 o ring
1 manriki gusari
2 ratchet bomb
1 sunlance

Thoughts?



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[Luca Grease]

Looking for some honest input here, as I am undecided on the aggro or control versions of this deck. My list is as follows:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 vial
4 STP
4 sfm
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sofi

3 wisp
2 crusader
2 avenger
1 spells kite
1 mangara
1 sunlance

4 waste
4 port
4 karakas
10 snow covered plains

Sideboard:
2 e tutor
2 rip
2 canonist
2 liege
1 needle
1 relic warder
1 o ring
1 manriki gusari
2 ratchet bomb
1 sunlance

Thoughts?



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I'd cut the maindeck Sunlance, probably for an additional land (Canopy or another Plains). It's good as a 1-of in the side against tribal and Delver/Shaman decks, but unless you are preparing for a pretty narrow meta, I wouldn't consider maindecking it.

I've tested the more aggro-oriented BOM build a little and it seems really good against a lot of the field. Probably an upgrade over the GP version. One thing though, if you are cutting Mangara, you kinda need Cataclysm in the SB imo...

[Kayradis]

After close to a year and a half on Elves! i'm finally switching to D&T (mostly to learn more about my own deck since it's probably it's worst match up) and to keep my mind fresh.

Anything I should really be aware? I've built the deck yesterday since we had 95% of the cards in our card pool.
Is there a big difference between the 2 Canopy and 1 Canopy build? I understand the whole trick with E Tutor in the S&T match up, but what would bring you towards the 2 canopy vs the 1? Budget restrictions?

Cheers

[GoblinZ]

After close to a year and a half on Elves! i'm finally switching to D&T (mostly to learn more about my own deck since it's probably it's worst match up) and to keep my mind fresh.

Anything I should really be aware? I've built the deck yesterday since we had 95% of the cards in our card pool.
Is there a big difference between the 2 Canopy and 1 Canopy build? I understand the whole trick with E Tutor in the S&T match up, but what would bring you towards the 2 canopy vs the 1? Budget restrictions?

Cheers

I cut the number of canopy to one for sake of blood moon and wasteland, I just want more solid mana base.

[Kayradis]

The current list I've build runs 10 Plains.
But, thanks for your input! Im trying to get a better understanding of the whole deck before facing opponents this Thursday!

[Barbed Blightning]

After close to a year and a half on Elves! i'm finally switching to D&T (mostly to learn more about my own deck since it's probably it's worst match up) and to keep my mind fresh.

Anything I should really be aware? I've built the deck yesterday since we had 95% of the cards in our card pool.
Is there a big difference between the 2 Canopy and 1 Canopy build? I understand the whole trick with E Tutor in the S&T match up, but what would bring you towards the 2 canopy vs the 1? Budget restrictions?

Cheers

Do you have a list we can look at? With discussion on D&T strategy it's crucial to look at the build vs the expected meta, as this deck is very much about becoming your opponent's foil, creating an environment in which your deck thrives and theirs simply cannot. I usually think about it a like martial arts.

A brief rundown of the all-stars of the deck:

Aether Vial: this card was the reason Finn made the deck to begin with--he wrote an article on how the card was broken and, after receiving a tepid response, decided to prove it. It's crucial for our deck to say the least, both to enable our mana denial plan and to perform our many creature tricks.

Mother of Runes: she is what keeps our haters alive and hating, as well as serving a hate roll herself: blanking removal and attacks or blocks.

Thalia: for the decks where resolving many spells is crucial (Tempo and Combo), Thalia simply is the best. Her first strike is very relevant, surprisingly.

Phyrexian Revoker: important things to remember: 1. He can hit mana abilities. 2. He is colorless, so he can sneak by opposing moms. 3. His ability never triggers, so there's nothing to respond to (like lava man, jitte, etc). 4. You can totally play him off a S&T and name what they play without them ever getting a chance to respond.

Remember: D&T is a difficult deck. Like most Legacy decks it has many nuances that allow for great victories and tremendous losses. It's not inconsistent; just complicated and, unlike many other decks, it requires you to understand your opponent's deck quickly in order to best slow them down. Underground Sea -> Ponder could mean a lot of different decks, but if the next turn play is Tarmogoyf or Duress then you need to know what your role will be in the matchup and which hate bear to play.

[Kayradis]

I don't have the current list with me since I'm still at work, but Ill post it tonight and I am actually looking forward to discuss more in details of the actual strategic choices and such.

Again,
Thanks!

[Barbed Blightning]

Played at my weekly last night, 36 players, four rounds, had a nearly flawless record. At the last moment I guilted myself into playing Mangara--and was so glad I did.

The List:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas
10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cataclysm
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Celestial Flare
1 Grafdigger's Cage



Matches were:

1) Zoo (2-0): He apparently has played this matchup and hates it, especially game two when I Cataclysmed, leaving behind a plains and a batterskull--then drop Port for the turn. :)

2) Forgemaster MUD (2-1): Karn turn three was GG game one. Then I had all the land destruction games two and three--with best friends SFM and Batterskull pummeling him.

3) BURG Tempo (piloted by Sourcer phazonmuant!, 2-0): Like the RUG matchup, fairly easy--though more complicated due to the presence of DRS, Decay and -1/-1 effects out of the board. Game one I destroy all of his lands and finish the game with 2 Wisps, a Revoker on DRS and active Mangara vs his completely empty board. I removed my Wisps and Mangaras (3 and 2) in favor of Liege, RIP and Flare. Game two goes on long since I kept risky non basics-vial hand--and it pays off. Liege is apparently impossible for that deck to kill, and 4/4 Avenger was nice. :) Game ends with an SFM + SoFI.

4) ID with Burn, since I'd rather have the reduced grand prize and time to grab a quick beer at the Mox Cafe.

Observations:

Celestial Flare is actually kind of badass. It helped vs Zoo and while my BURG opponent totally caught onto what I was trying to do (since he knew I had a SoFI in hand and only two mana up in game two) having it still felt nice, esp. since all he had were Mongeese.

I doubt I would have missed Mindcensor. There are no Elves in Seattle (that I've seen) so the "Gotcha!" effect would never have been useful. Even as a one-off removal, Mangara is still great.

Very happy I came back to the deck. Feel a little foolish for leaving in the first place, but I did get the chance to understand the nuances of other decks.

[berry]

Yo fellas, I'm playing Enevoldsens 75 in a ~50 man tournament in 12 hours and since I am a bit new to the deck I would love if anyone could help me with my sideboarding plans. The 75 are:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
23 lands

2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
26 creatures
4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
11 other spells

Sideboard
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sunlance
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
15 sideboard cards

I feel like I have boarded IN decently enough, but am never really sure what I'm supposed to board out. I'm not really asking for specific ins/outs for every MU (I can list like 5-8 archetypes I bet I can see tomorrow so...) but rather in a general sense what goes in and out against archetypes, etc.

Thankful for any help I can get!

[from Cairo]

Yo fellas, I'm playing Enevoldsens 75 in a ~50 man tournament in 12 hours and since I am a bit new to the deck I would love if anyone could help me with my sideboarding plans.

Thankful for any help I can get!

Check out Wescoe's GP report. He posts sb plans with that 75.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11516

[berry]

Check out Wescoe's GP report. He posts sb plans with that 75.

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=11516

Geez. I look everywhere except on good ole TCGPlayer, of course. Thanks a bunch!

[goblinsplayer]

Switching to Death and Taxes from Goblins because I don't want to lose against Nemesis. Any tips for a relatively new D&T player? I have played the deck before and know what it does. I just want advice on how to start learning to play the deck. My list is basically the GP top8 list.

[Barbed Blightning]

Switching to Death and Taxes from Goblins because I don't want to lose against Nemesis. Any tips for a relatively new D&T player? I have played the deck before and know what it does. I just want advice on how to start learning to play the deck. My list is basically the GP top8 list.

PM me if you want, but the first thing I'd recommend is running Mangara of Corondor. I fiddled with the GP list for a bit, but found that having Mango back in the deck helped smooth over many matches.

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[razvan]

So I decided to take a break from Jund and threw this together.

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Sunlance
3 Cards I forget

Anyway, I played 4 rounds in 2 win-a-boxes, lost 2nd round both times. I played the deck poorly, but picked up as the rounds progressed. Also played a whole bunch of games against friends at GP Toronto.

First, the good.

- This deck is fantastic at getting you out of a bad spot. I can't quite explain it until I get more experience, but it seems to just get what it needs out of nowhere.
- Flickerwisp is too great for words.
- It smokes a lot of decks, combo decks especially. The disruption comes at it from so many angles. Hypergenesis and Affinity seem like awesome matchups (again from limited testing). I can imagine Show and Tell to be quite good too.
- The learning curve seems high, but it seems to reward you.
- Fiend Hunter is amazing.

The bad.

- I keep mulliganning like crazy. I mulliganned every match. Mull to 4 and 5 were shockingly common.
- UWR delver was both my losses. Delvers and TNN are a menace when backed with their disruption. I will read this threat to see if I missed a key point or am playing or sideboarding poorly.
- Mistakes hurt a lot, even when it does forgive you.

The future.

- Aven Mindcensors seem un-necessary. I think fitting in 2 Serra Avengers for them is a good idea, and trying to slot a third is good. I don't want to lose the Fiend Hunter.

Anyway, that's it for now.

[Barbed Blightning]

So I decided to take a break from Jund and threw this together.

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Fiend Hunter

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard
3 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Sunlance
3 Cards I forget

Anyway, I played 4 rounds in 2 win-a-boxes, lost 2nd round both times. I played the deck poorly, but picked up as the rounds progressed. Also played a whole bunch of games against friends at GP Toronto.

First, the good.

- This deck is fantastic at getting you out of a bad spot. I can't quite explain it until I get more experience, but it seems to just get what it needs out of nowhere.
- Flickerwisp is too great for words.
- It smokes a lot of decks, combo decks especially. The disruption comes at it from so many angles. Hypergenesis and Affinity seem like awesome matchups (again from limited testing). I can imagine Show and Tell to be quite good too.
- The learning curve seems high, but it seems to reward you.
- Fiend Hunter is amazing.

The bad.

- I keep mulliganning like crazy. I mulliganned every match. Mull to 4 and 5 were shockingly common.
- UWR delver was both my losses. Delvers and TNN are a menace when backed with their disruption. I will read this threat to see if I missed a key point or am playing or sideboarding poorly.
- Mistakes hurt a lot, even when it does forgive you.

The future.

- Aven Mindcensors seem un-necessary. I think fitting in 2 Serra Avengers for them is a good idea, and trying to slot a third is good. I don't want to lose the Fiend Hunter.

Anyway, that's it for now.

Avenger is nuts. Add 3 and your delver matchup becomes easy.

Mindcensor is weak, mostly because he costs 1 mana too many. And mulling comes with the deck; part of it comes with time, part of it is evaluating hands and making a logical leap. Something like:

Plains, SFM, Mom, StP, Thalia

Looks risky, but at 5 is worth the keep, since any land off the top puts you in business.

And if you love Hunter, try Mangara: he's slower, more vulnerable, etc. but also serves as a trump card vs any fair match and S&T combo. The lock is also surprisingly easy to get online.

[razvan]

Yeah, I didn't have Avengers, so I just took an older list. I definitely like the Mirran Crusaders, but other than swapping out the 2 Mindcensors for 2 Avengers... I don't know whether to move a Revoker to the SB, or just cut a Crusader. Maybe cutting a Crusader is best... 2 are still good as a mise.

It wasn't mulliganning bad hands as much as unplayable hands. I guess it comes with the territory since Jund (for example) has 9 fetchlands and 11 colored mana producing lands, whereas this has 10 Plains and 3 Karakas, 1 Cavern and 1 Canopy. But still not that bad. I even kept Waste/Port with Vial hands, some panned out, some did not.

Seeing a Plains in my opening hand was a snap-keep almost every game, including testing games.

I had 2 Mangara in the sideboard, I forgot about those. Yeah, they are pretty sweet in a lot of matchups.

In general, I am always loathing changing the maindeck from something MUCH better players have already developed. This is not a deck that can really change heavily based upon different metagames. Even the sideboard, not having any Cataclysms required moving some stuff around. Nothing I could do about mulligans however I am certain the deck will play a lot smoother once I get better with it.

[Barbed Blightning]

This is not a deck that can really change heavily based upon different metagames. Even the sideboard, not having any Cataclysms required moving some stuff around. Nothing I could do about mulligans however I am certain the deck will play a lot smoother once I get better with it.

In truth, this deck has several iterations and should be changed based on meta-since so much of it's strategy is about creating a hostile environment for your opposition.

For example, my meta has many blade decks and a smattering of random stuff, so I am playing Mangara and Avenger over Mindcensor and Crusader (though I will still keep a singleton crusader in the main). In my old meta, however, combo and goyfs ran amok and I would probably be playing Enevoldsen's 60.

As far as mulls go, Aether Vial is also almost always a snap keep unless it has only a wasteland as a mana source (and speaking of vial, knowing when to tick it up from 2 to 3 is another skill to master with the deck as well). Last week I played vs BURG tempo and kept a hand with triple port, waste and two vials--and went on to win.

EDIT: Also, never cut Revoker. I'm personally a huge fan of the card and wrote a nice guide on the Salvation thread (which is somehow more active than this one) on how to use him based on what deck you are facing. I am willing to go as far as to say that there is an inviolable core to this deck, along the lines of:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 sfm
4 Vial
4 StP

[Penguinizer]

I'm sorry to ask for a ton of advice on a short notice. I took a half year or so break from M:tG (with the exception of pre-releases), however, I decided to sign up for a 120 man Legacy tournament. Only now did I realize just how much the format has probably changed since I last played. Could someone give me the keynotes of how my old build is out of date now?

Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 26
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Aven Mindcensor

Spells: 12
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant (this one should be a 4th Thalia or a Batterskull.)

Sideboard:
3x Enlightened Tutor
3x Rest in Peace
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Serenity
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Stony Silence
1x Aven Mindcensor

[jvacar622]

I just started playing Legacy after a long while spent intimidating myself out of it what with the price barrier and all, but given D&T's recent showings and just how much it suits my personality and playstyle, I decided to make the leap, sell off most of my standard collection, and get into this wonderful format I've been on the sidelines of for a while. I can see the deck has a steep learning curve, especially since most games I played were mine to lose. But can anyone give me the cliff notes? I don't expect to learn to play the deck overnight, but any advice you can give a new player would be much appreciated. One thing I've been wondering is if Runed Halo in the sideboard is too narrow? It deals with TNN but it doesn't seem to deal with much else, unfortunately.

[DavidHernandez]

I just started playing Legacy after a long while spent intimidating myself out of it what with the price barrier and all, but given D&T's recent showings and just how much it suits my personality and playstyle, I decided to make the leap, sell off most of my standard collection, and get into this wonderful format I've been on the sidelines of for a while. I can see the deck has a steep learning curve, especially since most games I played were mine to lose. But can anyone give me the cliff notes? I don't expect to learn to play the deck overnight, but any advice you can give a new player would be much appreciated. One thing I've been wondering is if Runed Halo in the sideboard is too narrow? It deals with TNN but it doesn't seem to deal with much else, unfortunately.

Hi. You need to read the following thread in it's entirety.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

Don't skip anything, and note that there are buttons to expand what is written. Also pay attention to the sections that discuss what your creatures can do. While several builds are listed, some of them are old and give a history of the formulation and evolution of the deck. Don't skip reading them, but don't be confused about what to play now. The current builds seem to be dropping Mangara of Corondor and one other card to play 3 x Serra Avenger. Builds seem to be going to 3 Karakas. Pay attention to the Flickerwisp tricks. You'll be tempted to play fewer than 3 of them. Don't. You need them.

The deck has a definite learning curve. People will tell you it's garbage, but then you beat them and they'll say "I can't believe I lost to that janky deck." They will blame their deck "breaking on them." It's just the way D&T works. Don't give up playing it. If you can take it to every tournament for the next 6 weeks, and really pay attention to the tricks and abilities of your creatures, you will be very pleased with your results. This deck is good against the entire field. You might run into some trouble vs. Elves!, but you can sideboard for that if it's in your local meta.

Dave

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, reading ALL of the forum is unreasonable. However, read the primer posts and the last few weeks' worth of pages (since at least GP: DC).

Side note(s):
Mangara is still very good right now, as TNN and DRS continue to slow the format. He has always been easy to hate on, but if left unchecked will run off with the game. I run two.

My list, for example (@peguinizer: I think you should run this, btw):


4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

11 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas


Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-leaf Liege
2 Cataclysm
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Celestial Flare
1 Pithing Needle / Grafdiggers Cage



It's inspired by older D&T lists, around the time of Thalia's printing. I've opted for a more stable mana base and fewer "cute" tricks.


Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the answer (as with all D&T strategy) to TNN lies in proactive disruption. In short, we are cultivating an environment in which our opposition struggles to survive, whilst our deck thrives. Runed Halo is too reactive, but fliers who sail over TNN and equipment like Sword of fire and ice, which gives pro blue to a ground dude, are the solution we seek.

[DavidHernandez]

Barbed: I meant he needs to read the initial primer post by Finn. LOL. Didn't realize it sounded like I meant the whole, entire, amazingly long thread.

Although that wouldn't hurt. I did it. Twice.

And then I won 3 tournaments with the deck.

I love D&T. Once you get used to the interactions and abilities of your pieces, this deck rocks.

P.S.: I like your deck list.

Dave

[anakyn]

People will tell you it's garbage, but then you beat them and they'll say "I can't believe I lost to that janky deck."

IMHO, it is garbage, and it is very strong nevertheless.
I'm not provoking: the 2 concepts doesn't necessary collide.
This deck seemed strong to me even before he burst on the Legacy metagame at GP Strasbourg. I was there and I remember very well how players around the world (and even commentators) were surprised by D&T performance. I wasn't surprised at all, only worried.

It all depends on your definition of "garbage": my definition involves the aesthetics of playing Magic the Gathering, and dropping a bunch of creatures that "do something strong" is not that attractive.
But it wins games nowadays, I'll surely give you that.

Unfortunately, this recent MtG tendency has brought us not only D&T rising, but also True-name nemesis, and God only knows (well, Wizard knows too :P) what's coming next.

For me, it all comes down to this: being strong is not enough to gain respect, and not D&T as a deck, nor TNN as a card will gain mine.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[Penguinizer]

Looking at the latest posts, should I play 3x Revoker or 4x Thalia (instead of 2x and 3x respectively) instead of the dumb singleton Elspeth I had in my list as filler? That and is Enlightened Tutor still a thing or should I modify my sideboard to be less of a toolbox and more 3-ofs and a Revoker/Mindcensor to complement my MD 2-ofs?

[Barbed Blightning]

snip

@Dave: thanks. I played back when MM was around and dropped it for a year or so. Glad to be back

@penguin: 4. Of both. Never any fewer. Drop the Elspeth. Go tutor less; the old tutor board was actually garbage against any non combo anyway

[DavidHernandez]

@penguin: 4. Of both. Never any fewer. Drop the Elspeth. Go tutor less; the old tutor board was actually garbage against any non combo anyway
You really must drop the Elspeth. And you must run 4 Thalia. Finn once told me: "This is a Thalia based deck." And it's true. You might not think so, but once you get to playing the deck you see how critical it is to land Thalia. After she is on the table, all your land destruction and other hate just locks the opponent out of playing. I happen to run 3 Revokers, but 4 is always an option that many (most?) D&T players consider essential. Never, ever run less than 3.

And don't add GREEN!!! We've had that conversation already and it turns into Maverick. If you want to add green, play Maverick -- and don't call it "Wg Death & Taxes!"

The thing about D&T is that you look at the list and the first thing you do is think "hmmm...this list looks like garbage. I can really make it better by adding xyz to it!!! No one ever thought of it, I bet!!!"

Yeah. They did. So do yourself a favor and don't get creative with this deck yet. Just play a vanilla version of the deck until you know what it does. Save yourself money and heartache. It will be worth it, I promise.

This is my current list:

Creatures:27
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker (could be 4 if you drop a Mirran Crusader)
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader (could be 2 if you add a Revoker)
1 Preacher (this is my pet card. I don't think anyone else runs it but it helps prevent stupid beasts from hitting the table until the opponent finds an answer...)

Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace -or- Sword of Fire and Ice (I've been testing War & Peace and really like it, but with True-Name Nemesis in the field, I think I will have to go back to SoFI)
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
1 Cavern of Souls (I LOVE THIS. Might buy a second one.)
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

I'm really liking the Serra Avengers. Never sorry to see them in my hand.

Dave

[lordofthepit]

Barbed: I meant he needs to read the initial primer post by Finn. LOL. Didn't realize it sounded like I meant the whole, entire, amazingly long thread.

Wrong. He needs to read the entire thread. Including the section during GP Strasbourg where we asky why Nathan Holt sounds like an Innistrad necromancer transported to modern-day Austria.

[Tylert]

Wrong. He needs to read the entire thread. Including the section during GP Strasbourg where we asky why Nathan Holt sounds like an Innistrad necromancer transported to modern-day Austria.

Strasbourg is not in Austria (But i don't blame you for being wrong on that... it was part of Germany some time ago).

[Penguinizer]

@penguin: 4. Of both. Never any fewer. Drop the Elspeth. Go tutor less; the old tutor board was actually garbage against any non combo anyway

All right, sounds like solid advice. I'll rework parts of my list accordingly. I tweaked the MB a bit to make room for 4x Revoker and 4x Thalia. I also re-did the sideboard to make it tutorless. I'm still missing 2 cards that I can't decide though. I might add Manriki-Gusari and a singleton Grafdigger's Cage or something.

Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x ???

[Tylert]

All right, sounds like solid advice. I'll rework parts of my list accordingly. I tweaked the MB a bit to make room for 4x Revoker and 4x Thalia. I also re-did the sideboard to make it tutorless. I'm still missing 2 cards that I can't decide though. I might add Manriki-Gusari and a singleton Grafdigger's Cage or something.

Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x ???

I would not play the flagstones personnally. You might end up getting timewalked by a wasteland in the upkeep phase.
Also, your list looks like what we were at before TE taking GP strasbourg :)
Back to basics... :)

[Penguinizer]

I would not play the flagstones personnally. You might end up getting timewalked by a wasteland in the upkeep phase.
Also, your list looks like what we were at before TE taking GP strasbourg :)
Back to basics... :)

Like I mentioned, I had taken a break from the format. :tongue:

Also, the meta in Finland is weird so I'm pretty sure there'll be at least one person playing pox and such.

[anakyn]

snip

D&T is not just a creature deck.
On MTG salvation it is in the control category of legacy established decks, not in aggro or mid-range, for the simple reason that it is more a mana denial deck, than a creature deck. It punishes greedy manabases by wrecking non basic lands and keeping the opponent from casting spells.

Believe me: I know D&T very well. A friend of mine (who also writes here sometimes) owns it and we played countless games against each other, with me playing several kinds of deck: control, combo, aggro, anything.

You're perfectly right: the main peculiarity of this deck is the mana denial plan. It's something this deck accomplishes not only with lands, but also with the fundamental support of many of its creatures: Thalia of course, but also Revoker (on Shaman / Hierarch / any mana producing permanent), Mindcensor and Flickerwisp (bouncing lands or anything that produces mana, especially with Vial @3).
About 1/3 of the deck can accomplish denial, and you play the strongest denial cards.
Consequently, you have probably the strongest denial in the Legacy metagame.

And that's exactly why I call it a plague for the metagame of this format.
The fact of it being a "creature deck" is not that relevant in my opinion: it only says something about the general complexity, but nothing about the "fun factor".

You know, you are D&T players, you are very well positioned in the current metagame, you are clearly happy with it, 'cause you like the deck and you win with it. It's a wonderful world.

Now try to put yourself in the perspective of someone playing against D&T.
Your lands will probably be Wastelanded and/or Ported, your non-land mana resources will be Revoked, your removal will be useless because Mother is in play, when (and if) you'll have some land in play there will be Thalia negating any spell costing more than 2-3 and doubling the cost of any 1-CC spell, and when (and if) you'll finally will be able to cast something relevant, you'll be either dead or facing a Batterskull or some Jitte-equipped creature.

Very fun, uh?
Yeah, it's not fun at all.

Because this deck, in the end, uses different tools but accomplishes one fundamental goal: negates opponent's gameplan until it's too late to matter or recover.

And you know why I strongly consider that having this kind of deck as a dominant Tier 1 is a big problem for the metagame and health of this format?
Because none likes to lose this way.
When a new player approaches to Legacy, I don't think that playing against D&T will be the best thing for him to be appealed.

There are other "ugly" and "unfunny" ways to win or to lose, of course, therefore there are other decks/cards that potentially harm the health of Legacy.
Someone playing Emrakul on 1st or 2nd turn, for example. I admit without a problem that S&T decks are even worse than D&T under this perspective.

But I think no other decks are so frustrating to play against.

Yes, Canadian's denial plan is strong too, but not as strong as D&T, and the fact is: even if you've just lost against it without having the opportunity to develop your gameplan (which happens pretty often), probably you won't have the same distaste in your mouth. Because you just lost to a deck that, with the maximum efficiency possible, has used one of his lands and a couple of spells to negate your plan, while using in the meantime the other 1-2 lands to find some beaters and put them into play, and you find yourself a couple of turns later with no threats on the field, your removal countered, and an army of 3+ power creatures flying over your head or smashing through your defenses.
Surely it can be frustrating too, but you can't help but to admire a deck like this. Because it's spectacular, and next time you wanna play something like that.

And yes, combo too can leave you with a frustrating loss. I admit that losing to a 1st / 2nd turn Emrakul or Griselbrand it's not something to like, in fact Sneak & Show and Reanimator are, in my opinion, horrible decks as well.
But what about Storm? You can lose to it even faster, but wow, you lose in such a fashion that you'll want to storm yourself on next occasion.

Take Jund now. Another "garbage" deck if you ask me.
Linear, simple, strong: sometimes the deck will just win without you taking any effort or particular decision. You have discard, removal, lots of mana, card advantage, a reasonable clock: you can wreck or be wrecked by a deck like this.
But it lets you play your game.


My point in the end is: Death & Taxes is one of those deck that, while can amuse the players piloting it, will probably draw hatred, annoyance and grudge by almost anyone playing against it.



Honestly, if you can't explain your reasonning or don't want to, you should have stayed away from here.
It's open to everyone for discussion, not wrong fact stating without argumentation

I hope I just showed you none of your accusations were true.

[razvan]

You don't see me on the Jund thread knocking how mindless and linear the deck is (even if that is my opinion). TL;DR--if you ain't got something to contribute, don't bother posting.
Bring it on, foo', I'm ready! :P I kid, I kid.

1 Preacher (this is my pet card. I don't think anyone else runs it but it helps prevent stupid beasts from hitting the table until the opponent finds an answer...)
I ran 2 in the sideboard in the few games I had. Never drew it. I think it's awesome.

As for Thalia, she is so incredible. Calling it a Thalia deck is correct. Having plains on turn 1, then port on turn 2, then Karakas and her on turn 3 is such a good position. In fact, even just having Thalia block something huge later on, survive, until you draw something to go ahead (such as... blocking a goyf until you draw a MIRRAN CRUSADER!) is great. The legendary tag is a plus, not a minus, in a lot of situations.

[Barbed Blightning]

@razvan: cool fact: Thalia can kill a batterskull token if she has a jitte. Give it -2/-2 at the end of first strike combat step.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[TheKingslayer]

Tylert, let's start from the end, this will be interesting.




Wrong. I clearly said it was my opinion. Read again my first post if you want.
I didn't "state" anything at all.




If I cared about "the majority of people" 's opinion, I wouldn't write a negative comment on D&T in the D&T thread, don't you think?




As you want.

Let's start from your own comment:



Believe me: I know D&T very well. A friend of mine (who also writes here sometimes) owns it and we played countless games against each other, with me playing several kinds of deck: control, combo, aggro, anything.

You're perfectly right: the main peculiarity of this deck is the mana denial plan. It's something this deck accomplishes not only with lands, but also with the fundamental support of many of its creatures: Thalia of course, but also Revoker (on Shaman / Hierarch / any mana producing permanent), Mindcensor and Flickerwisp (bouncing lands or anything that produces mana, especially with Vial @3).
About 1/3 of the deck can accomplish denial, and you play the strongest denial cards.
Consequently, you have probably the strongest denial in the Legacy metagame.

And that's exactly why I call it a plague for the metagame of this format.
The fact of it being a "creature deck" is not that relevant in my opinion: it only says something about the general complexity, but nothing about the "fun factor".

You know, you are D&T players, you are very well positioned in the current metagame, you are clearly happy with it, 'cause you like the deck and you win with it. It's a wonderful world.

Now try to put yourself in the perspective of someone playing against D&T.
Your lands will probably be Wastelanded and/or Ported, you non-land mana resources will be Revoked, your removal will be useless because Mother is in play, when (and if) you'll have some land in play there will be Thalia negating any spell costing more than 2-3 and doubling the cost of any 1-CC spell, and when (and if) you'll finally will be able to cast something relevant, you'll be either dead or facing a Batterskull or some Jitte-equipped creature.

Very fun, uh?
Yeah, it's not fun at all.

Because this deck, in the end, uses different tools but accomplishes one fundamental goal: negates opponent's gameplan until it's too late to matter or recover.

And you know why I strongly consider that having this kind of deck as a dominant Tier 1 is a big problem for the metagame and health of this format?
Because none likes to lose this way.
When a new player approaches to Legacy, I don't think that playing against D&T will be the best thing for him to be appealed.

There are other "ugly" and "unfunny" ways to win or to lose, of course, therefore there are other decks/cards that potentially harm the health of Legacy.
Someone playing Emrakul on 1st or 2nd turn, for example. I admit without a problem that S&T decks are even worse than D&T under this perspective.

But I think no other decks are so frustrating to play against.

Yes, Canadian's denial plan is strong too, but not as strong as D&T, and the fact is: even if you've just lost against it without having the opportunity to develop your gameplan (which happens pretty often), probably you won't have the same distaste in your mouth. Because you just lost to a deck that, with the maximum efficiency possible, has used one of his lands and a couple of spells to negate your plan, while using in the meantime the other 1-2 lands to find some beaters and put them into play, and you find yourself a couple of turns later with no threats on the field, your removal countered, and an army of 3+ power creatures flying over your head or smashing through your defenses.
Surely it can be frustrating too, but you can't help but to admire a deck like this. Because it's spectacular, and next time you wanna play something like that.

And yes, combo too can leave you with a frustrating loss. I admit that losing to a 1st / 2nd turn Emrakul or Griselbrand it's not something to like, in fact Sneak & Show and Reanimator are, in my opinion, horrible decks as well.
But what about Storm? You can lose to it even faster, but wow, you lose in such a fashion that you'll want to storm yourself on next occasion.

Take Jund now. Another "garbage" deck if you ask me.
Linear, simple, strong: sometimes the deck will just win without you taking any effort or particular decision. You have discard, removal, lots of mana, card advantage, a reasonable clock: you can wreck or be wrecked by a deck like this.
But it lets you play your game.


My point in the end is: Death & Taxes is one of those deck that, while can amuse the players piloting it, will probably draw hatred, annoyance and grudge by almost anyone playing against it.




I hope I just showed you none of your accusations were true.

Are you seriously bemoaning an opponent's abilitiy to stifle your own game plan while deploying their own? That's what Legacy is all about.
You, my friend, should read this article. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27393_Fair-Unfair.html

[Barbed Blightning]

Are you seriously bemoaning an opponent's abilitiy to stifle your own game plan while deploying their own? That's what Legacy is all about.
You, my friend, should read this article. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27393_Fair-Unfair.html

Thank You. Great article. I couldn't say it better, so I won't try to.

[bjholmes3]

That article rocks. The "fairness" nonsense has always been ridiculous.

[Zilla]

If you kids don't stop your arguing I will turn this thread around.

NOW SIT DOWN AND STOP HITTING YOUR SISTER

[DavidHernandez]

Wrong. He needs to read the entire thread. Including the section during GP Strasbourg where we asky why Nathan Holt sounds like an Innistrad necromancer transported to modern-day Austria.

@lordofthepit: I recommended that he read the whole thing, but he needs to start with the Primer and get the basics down-pat. That single post will keep him busy and give him all the tools he needs to **start**. Then he should study the whole thread like a textbook.

@Penguinizer: I highly recommend you drop the second Sword (which one depends on your meta) and add the Batterskull...the Batterskull is a staple of the deck and will save your life (points) at the most amazing times. Also, the Flagstones need to go away. For your sideboard, the Oblivion Rings are too numerous. Use a creature that exiles stuff instead. You will find that Thalia may block you from casting the Rings when you need them, and the Rings don't work with Aether Vial. For your two open slots, you might consider Wilt-Leaf Liege. This is a mainstay of most D&T sideboards.

Dave

[razvan]

There's not a single deck that's fair. Not a single deck. Even the two most "fair" decks, Goblins and Elves...

Goblins can put a turn 1 Lackey, then keep you off your mana until turn 3-4, where you die.

Elves... well, fuck Elves. At the champs, my round 2 elf opponent ruined me. Faster than Sneak and Show.

There's no such thing as fair. I don't know why Combo is considered less fair than other decks. DnT might be considered fair by some... but I certainly don't feel it's fair on either side of the board. I ran Jund, Shardless Agent, and other decks that are unfair against it... and it's like a concrete wall.

I guess even if you are Bruce Lee, a concrete wall might be considered unfair.


If you kids don't stop your arguing I will turn this thread around.
AND WE ARE GOING BACK TO WINNIPEG!

[Jitse]

There's not a single deck that's fair. Not a single deck. Even the two most "fair" decks, Goblins and Elves...

Goblins can put a turn 1 Lackey, then keep you off your mana until turn 3-4, where you die.

Elves... well, fuck Elves. At the champs, my round 2 elf opponent ruined me. Faster than Sneak and Show.

There's no such thing as fair. I don't know why Combo is considered less fair than other decks. DnT might be considered fair by some... but I certainly don't feel it's fair on either side of the board. I ran Jund, Shardless Agent, and other decks that are unfair against it... and it's like a concrete wall.

I guess even if you are Bruce Lee, a concrete wall might be considered unfair.


AND WE ARE GOING BACK TO WINNIPEG!

to be fair (not intended to be a joke) elves and goblins are a lot less fair then Jund, Maverick and Death and Taxes. Goblins are still quite fair but elves is one of the least fair decks in legacy. I disagree with death and taxes being unfair because wasteland or thalia I think both are pretty fair magic cards.

[Mammutti]

Every single deck in legacy is designed to hinder or completely shut down your opponent's game plan, or designed to go off faster than it can be disrupted. I mean, losing is never very fun exactly. I find losing to Belcher, Miracles and Pox far more frustrating than losing to SnT or DnT. It is completely subjective.

Short reports:

Made top 8 at a local tournament a couple of weeks ago. (30+ people)

I played against:

Death and Taxes 1-1-1
Reanimator 2-0
Miracles 2-1
Miracles 2-1
Elves 0-2
Team America 2-1
4-1-1

Lost in the top8 to MUD. Punted pretty hard there. I playtested the match up against the same guy afterwards and the mu doesn't feel bad at all. Just keep them off their mana development. They have too many juicy Revoker targets.

Another local tournament where I came 1st (12ppl):

UWR Delver 1-1-1
Merfolk 2-1
Death and Taxes 2-0
BUG Delver Nemesis 2-1
3-0-1

And one more weekly legacy 2nd place finish.

Affinity 2-0
UR Painter 2-0
Elves 0-2
RUG Delver 2-1
3-1

Decklist:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Snow-Covered Plains

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
2 Aven Mindcensor

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Moat

I find this creature suite to work pretty well in the current meta. Not missing Crusaders at all. Mangaras, on the other hand, a little bit. Mindcensor has been very underwhelming. I can't remember if it shined even once during those matches. My Elves opp found a Craterhoof when I Mindcensored him in response to a NO. And all the other instances where I tried to prevent fetching, the land was on top anyway. But even more awkward are the situations where you don't Port your opponent and basically just give away free information. However, I still don't feel like cutting him because of the utility against Infernal Tutor, SFMystic, NOrder, GSZenith, Intuition and Fetches. But I dislike the fact that you can not count on him the same way you can count on Thalia, Canonist and Revoker. At least he can block a Delver - once.. Maybe we just have to wait for another broken weenie to be printed.

I'm running a singleton Disenchant from the sideboard which has been MVP for me. Hitting everything from equipments to Chalice of the Voids. I think 1 is enough though. Moat did nothing and needs to be cut. I saw it a couple of times against Nemesis decks but frankly, our fliers can out race him anyway. I'm not too afraid of Nemesis. Just play as many fliers as possible.

Ratchet Bomb is a card that I have mixed feelings about. It has been at its best against flipped Delvers. I believe there must be better options. I'm keeping that one for the time being.

What would you suggest for the Mindcensor dilemma? AND what would you suggest we do against Elves? It is by far our worst match up. I'm thinking about Grafdigger's Cage instead of that Moat. Maybe we just have to suck it up and accept you can't beat everything. Anyway thanks for reading and keep up with the amazing deck!

Cheers

[Barbed Blightning]

I'd cut censor, he's been lackluster to say the least. If we get a two drop version of him, I'd consider playing it.

Bombs are actually very good vs Elves, as you only need to tick it up once. Cage is also very useful at slowing them. Moat will never be viable in this deck, IMO.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[Penguinizer]

@Penguinizer: I highly recommend you drop the second Sword (which one depends on your meta) and add the Batterskull...the Batterskull is a staple of the deck and will save your life (points) at the most amazing times. Also, the Flagstones need to go away. For your sideboard, the Oblivion Rings are too numerous. Use a creature that exiles stuff instead. You will find that Thalia may block you from casting the Rings when you need them, and the Rings don't work with Aether Vial. For your two open slots, you might consider Wilt-Leaf Liege. This is a mainstay of most D&T sideboards.


I don't have Batterskull because the store never actually has one and I never get around to ordering one by mail. If I make the last 2 sideboard cards Wilt-leaf Liege, how many O-Rings should I change into the creature versions (Fiend Hunter primarily)? I could also cut down on the Aven Mindcensors if need be.

[2Rach]

I'd cut censor, he's been lackluster to say the least. If we get a two drop version of him, I'd consider playing it.
Leonin Arbiter

[Barbed Blightning]

Leonin Arbiter

I ran him for a bit, but the tax is pointless vs Elves, which is why we run Censor. Though I do remember a NO RUG deck losing hardcore when all he had was a fistful of fetches (Tony Chu maybe?)

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[Penguinizer]

I used to play Leonin Arbiter when Survival was a thing. I haven't really been impressed with him since though.

[anakyn]

Are you seriously bemoaning an opponent's abilitiy to stifle your own game plan while deploying their own? That's what Legacy is all about.
You, my friend, should read this article. http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27393_Fair-Unfair.html

Never said anything about "fairness" regarding the decks I commented, so I don't how this article has to do it with the opinion I expressed.
If you find where I said Canadian was "fair", or anything about some relationship about "fairness" and "funny", I'll gladly answer your remarks.

If you really read what I wrote, you would have found out that imho, fairness / unfairness is not the point when I consider how much a deck can be "toxic" for Legacy metagame.

TNN is a card usually played by "fair" decks, still it's toxic.

And if we have to talk about D&T "fairness", even if I don't think that's what matters most, I find this deck to be one the most unfair in the meta.

The problem as I can see it is not about being unfair, but how you are being unfair.

[Barbed Blightning]

Never said anything about "fairness" regarding the decks I commented, so I don't how this article has to do it with the opinion I expressed.

If you find where I said Canadian was "fair", or anything about some relationship about "fairness" and "funny", I'll gladly answer your questions.

It seems to me I said quite the opposite to be honest, but it doesn't matter.

Anakyn! Zilla said he was going to turn this thread around! You don't want to go back to Winnipeg, do you? It's so cold there this time of year.

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[anakyn]

Anakyn! Zilla said he was going to turn this thread around! You don't want to go back to Winnipeg, do you? It's so cold there this time of year.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk


I'm sorry, I just don't understand why this discussion should be considered toxic for the thread.
But I'll adapt to that and mute myself. Still better than being muted by others.

By the way, I edited my last post after you quoted it.


Regards and have fun with any deck you choose.

(and for the record: my favorites, if only I could know how to play them properly, would be High Tide and Lands. Unfortunately I'm bad at this game, and I have to play noobish decks like Jund. That's life I guess)

[DavidHernandez]

I don't have Batterskull because the store never actually has one and I never get around to ordering one by mail. If I make the last 2 sideboard cards Wilt-leaf Liege, how many O-Rings should I change into the creature versions (Fiend Hunter primarily)? I could also cut down on the Aven Mindcensors if need be.

I understand. Maybe you can trade for one while your online order ships....you really need the Batterskull. Two O-Rings might be okay. A previous poster ran two, and I actually run two also. I also run a Disenchant, which I agree is MVP. But I'm considering dropping these for creatures that have similar abilities, because that's what D&T is really about -- special abilities on creatures that allow you to lock your opponent while swinging for damage.

[Penguinizer]

I understand. Maybe you can trade for one while your online order ships....you really need the Batterskull. Two O-Rings might be okay. A previous poster ran two, and I actually run two also. I also run a Disenchant, which I agree is MVP. But I'm considering dropping these for creatures that have similar abilities, because that's what D&T is really about -- special abilities on creatures that allow you to lock your opponent while swinging for damage.

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Fiend Hunter

I 2x O-Ring 2x Fiend Hunter split seems solid. I want to have some o-rings just in case. I'm considering cutting the 2 Aven Mindcensors but they're handy in the niches they fit.

[DavidHernandez]

I am also looking at Leonin Relic-Warder x 2 for the board, and 2 Imposing Sovereign. I have a terrible time against Elves and Sneak Show, and I think the Sovereign will solve the problems. Just need that extra turn to win the match sometimes.

I didn't like Leonin Arbiter because is sometimes shut down my own ability to use Stoneforge Mystic, but it's an interesting card.

[Penguinizer]

I am also looking at Leonin Relic-Warder x 2 for the board, and 2 Imposing Sovereign. I have a terrible time against Elves and Sneak Show, and I think the Sovereign will solve the problems. Just need that extra turn to win the match sometimes.

I was also considering Leonin Relic-Warder but Oblivion Ring+Fiend Hunter means I always have a creature removal out of them against S&T. That and I didn't want to put in a third order in a row at the shop. Imposing Sovereign doesn't seem that impressive to me. It just seems incredibly limited.

[DavidHernandez]

...Imposing Sovereign doesn't seem that impressive to me. It just seems incredibly limited.

Yes, it does seem limited. I have not heard or read reports of anyone using it. Elves! and Sneak Show are the reasons I would run it. I can't seem to beat Elves! at all, even with 2 or 3 Mirran Crusader's, and it's often one or two turns I need to win. Vs. Sneak Show, one turn can be the deciding factor.

Has anyone tested Imposing Sovereign?

Thanks,
Dave

[Barbed Blightning]

Yes, it does seem limited. I have not heard or read reports of anyone using it. Elves! and Sneak Show are the reasons I would run it. I can't seem to beat Elves! at all, even with 2 or 3 Mirran Crusader's, and it's often one or two turns I need to win. Vs. Sneak Show, one turn can be the deciding factor.

Has anyone tested Imposing Sovereign?

Thanks,
Dave

Weird you should mention it, but I, too, have considered Sovereign and posted on the Salvation about it earlier today. Limited it may be, but no more so than Mindcensor or Revoker for that matter. Let's test it out!

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[DavidHernandez]

Weird you should mention it, but I, too, have considered Sovereign and posted on the Salvation about it earlier today. Limited it may be, but no more so than Mindcensor or Revoker for that matter. Let's test it out!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

I agree. I just ordered 4 and will put 2 or 3 in the board, or two in the board and one in the main. Nothing says "I love you" to the opponent more than main deck hate.

[Finn]

Anakyn, I want to thank you for your comments. I hope that you have not been scared off. When all is said and done, we may look back upon this as an excellent conversation. I have benefited by reading your perspective on facing this deck, and I hope to read more of it. This is ours:

I think a lot of D+T players cackle inside when we think about sticking it to all the powerful decks. I agree with you that this deck wins ugly. I thought a lot about your words, and yeah. I can see what you mean. D+T holds a deck back just enough to keep it from doing its thing. It must be annoying to face that. If you let powerful decks execute their plans without having a monkey wrench handy, they will certainly beat you. D+T has weak cards, after all. But it uses them to expose those decks for the houses of cards that they are. It starts with plenty of part-time mana disruption. But that can't last forever, so the deck has to back it up with other methods of keeping an opponent off-balance until it can sieze the upper-hand or force through enough damage in combat. When facing D+T:

Their cantrips are not assets.
They do not simply resolve Reanimate, Show and Tell, or Empty the Warrens and win.
A greedy manabase is no longer stable.
They can not include just the bare minimum of removal and expect their counterspells to pick up the slack.
Graveyards are not freely available.
...etc.

Most decks in Legacy live and die on assumptions about the environment that D+T alters. The best cards in the format are often terrible against D+T because it makes them that way on purpose. And yeah, when they are made to pay for those assumptions, it gets ugly. Don't count on those sorts of things and D+T can't hurt you.

Legacy is the best format because an anti-deck like this can exist and succeed in a field of overpowered stuff. I think that is beautiful.

[berry]

After posting earlier I wen't on to start the 40-something (let's say 45 for good measure) tournament 4-0 (won against Team America, Shardless, UR & Affinity) only to get paired down and have to play against UWR Delver which I lost terribly to a TNN with an equipped Jitte x2. Drew into top8 and lost in the quarters to eventual winner playing Esperblade in a tight game 3, but again TNN + batterskull did the job for him.

A sidenote: Wescoes SB-tips from his article must actually for sure be pre-TNN, which was kind of hilarious when it said that I should board in 2 Ratchet Bomb against Esperblade (assuming Lingering Souls, I guess) - so I had to wing it a bit.

Generally, deck was amazing, as always. Avenger is the MVP, stick a vial or mother T1 and you win, etc. Played a singleton Mirran Crusader that won me games vs BUG (delv), BUG (shardless) and Esperblade but I STILL did NOT like it very much, actually. It felt winmore in those situations, usually. But even worse than it were the Mindcensors... Sure, I could sneak it in against an unflipped Delver or to trade with a flipped one in some terrible situation, but I never really got to "get" someone with them and never really felt it was the right play anyway. I am thinking more and more that these should be 2 Mangaras. They are a main deck-answer to TNN + equipment, since this gameplan of TNN-decks take quite a lot of time (resolve SFM, resolve TNN and then equip - usually after killing a revoker) and Mangara can get some work done then. Besides, she's (he?) just so cute.

When it came to the sideboard I'm really starting to question the Cataclysms, but maybe it's just my metagame? I never play miracles, I felt no reason to board it in against ANY blade deck (SFM + TNN = they can leave TNN + equipment or whatever) and it was OK against Shardless once I got to resolve it. I mean, sure, we have a 12-post player, but come on... This opens up slots for answer to the problems we (or only I?) have most of all, the TNN + equip - thinking 1 Disenchant & 1 Manriki-Gusari! But I'm interested in all of youz tech, too.

P.S. Why have I not seen anyone play Sunlance anymore? Is it only for me this card is amazing?

P.P.S. Ratchet Bomb has been surprisingly decent for me. Besides being absolutely bonkers vs Elves it kills Delver + Grim Lavamancer on 1 and SFM + Jitte on 2 versus UWR Delver. Sure, it hurts your own stuff but it's your card, you should be able to shape your game around it.

EDIT: Hit me after writing this that I might want to up my Avenger-count to 4 like some of you already have. Might cut the singleton Mirran Crusader or the second Mangara/Mindcensor-slot.

[DavidHernandez]

...

Generally, deck was amazing, as always. Avenger is the MVP, stick a vial or mother T1 and you win, etc. Played a singleton Mirran Crusader that won me games vs BUG (delv), BUG (shardless) and Esperblade but I STILL did NOT like it very much, actually. It felt winmore in those situations, usually. But even worse than it were the Mindcensors... Sure, I could sneak it in against an unflipped Delver or to trade with a flipped one in some terrible situation, but I never really got to "get" someone with them and never really felt it was the right play anyway. I am thinking more and more that these should be 2 Mangaras. They are a main deck-answer to TNN + equipment, since this gameplan of TNN-decks take quite a lot of time (resolve SFM, resolve TNN and then equip - usually after killing a revoker) and Mangara can get some work done then. Besides, she's (he?) just so cute.

When it came to the sideboard I'm really starting to question the Cataclysms, but maybe it's just my metagame? I never play miracles, I felt no reason to board it in against ANY blade deck (SFM + TNN = they can leave TNN + equipment or whatever) and it was OK against Shardless once I got to resolve it. I mean, sure, we have a 12-post player, but come on... This opens up slots for answer to the problems we (or only I?) have most of all, the TNN + equip - thinking 1 Disenchant & 1 Manriki-Gusari! But I'm interested in all of youz tech, too.

P.S. Why have I not seen anyone play Sunlance anymore? Is it only for me this card is amazing?

My area still sees a lot of green in RUG, Elves, Nic Fit, so Mirran stays in my deck x2. I removed my Mindcensors completely and run 2x Mangara. I stopped running Cataclysms and Sunlance. I'm liking the 3 Avengers. They still can't come in until turn 3 with Vial....but 4 seems to be the direction everyone is going. Perhaps you can drop a Mindcensor for the 4th Avenger, and another for a Mangara. As a one-of, you can drop to 3 Karakas and maybe run a second Cavern of Souls...

Dave

[Mr. Froggy]

Anakyn, I want to thank you for your comments. I hope that you have not been scared off. When all is said and done, we may look back upon this as an excellent conversation. I have benefited by reading your perspective on facing this deck, and I hope to read more of it. This is ours:

I think a lot of D+T players cackle inside when we think about sticking it to all the powerful decks. I agree with you that this deck wins ugly. I thought a lot about your words, and yeah. I can see what you mean. D+T holds a deck back just enough to keep it from doing its thing. It must be annoying to face that. If you let powerful decks execute their plans without having a monkey wrench handy, they will certainly beat you. D+T has weak cards, after all. But it uses them to expose those decks for the houses of cards that they are. It starts with plenty of part-time mana disruption. But that can't last forever, so the deck has to back it up with other methods of keeping an opponent off-balance until it can sieze the upper-hand or force through enough damage in combat. When facing D+T:

Their cantrips are not assets.
They do not simply resolve Reanimate, Show and Tell, or Empty the Warrens and win.
A greedy manabase is no longer stable.
They can not include just the bare minimum of removal and expect their counterspells to pick up the slack.
Graveyards are not freely available.
...etc.

Most decks in Legacy live and die on assumptions about the environment that D+T alters. The best cards in the format are often terrible against D+T because it makes them that way on purpose. And yeah, when they are made to pay for those assumptions, it gets ugly. Don't count on those sorts of things and D+T can't hurt you.

Legacy is the best format because an anti-deck like this can exist and succeed in a field of overpowered stuff. I think that is beautiful.

Finn... Beautifully said!

[anakyn]

Anakyn, I want to thank you for your comments. I hope that you have not been scared off. When all is said and done, we may look back upon this as an excellent conversation. I have benefited by reading your perspective on facing this deck, and I hope to read more of it. This is ours:

[...]

Most decks in Legacy live and die on assumptions about the environment that D+T alters. The best cards in the format are often terrible against D+T because it makes them that way on purpose. And yeah, when they are made to pay for those assumptions, it gets ugly. Don't count on those sorts of things and D+T can't hurt you.

Legacy is the best format because an anti-deck like this can exist and succeed in a field of overpowered stuff. I think that is beautiful.


Hi Finn,

so I have the pleasure to talk to the Father of the Beast... well, I guess you can call me the Exorcist :P

Out of irony, don't worry: I'm pretty experienced in internet discussions, social interactions & netiquettes in forums and so on, so it's rare for me to be scared off in such a context. I'm also confident enough in my debating skills, and I have to say that the reactions of D&T posters to my comments was pretty cool in the end, so I'm enjoying being here.


Now let's talk about Death and Taxes.

If I had to summarize your words about "your" deck (or let's say the most famous among the decks you created), I'd say you consider it to "win ugly but smart", while its beauty lies in turning great cards (and decks) into bad cards (and decks), using worse cards than the ones you've just turned into ash.

Well, if you used the term "power" in place of "beauty", I couldn't agree more. Crushing many Tier 1 decks with a smile on your face is clearly powerful.
On the other hand, the concept of "beauty" is completely subjective, so talking in these terms of an MtG deck would be a bit meaningless.

I used the concept of "toxicity" regarding D&T and his impact on the legacy metagame.

I did because, in simple terms, I consider it to be one of the most frustrating deck to lose against, while I don't think it's that funny to play with. I'm pretty curious about this: do you enjoy the mechanics of this deck in themselves? I mean: tapping lands with Rishadan, tapping Moms to save your creatures, landing Thalias and Revokers to negate opponent's plans, flashing in Mindcensor to negate even fetchlands, and so on... is that "fun" to you, or it only feels strong? Again, that's an honest and not-provoking question: I've played D&T too and I never felt "excited", if you know what I mean.

I can only guess (because I never really "felt" it) that the most "fun" part of playing D&T is exactly what you emphasize so well: the intimate satisfaction of watching the "best decks and cards" crumble beneath the feet of your (apparently) "not-overpowered" stuff.

It shouldn't be a surprise that, while D&T players obviously enjoy this (slightly perverse) feeling, most of the other MtG players can find it annoying both win and lose this way.

I consider D&T absolutely unique under this perspective, and while I don't wanna talk philosophy, I can't avoid thinking about the fact that human art and intellect have such a variety of forms that sometimes we find ourselves loving the ones which express destruction and decay. After all, we can even feel attraction to the very concept of war, which is probably something to be ashamed of if we think about it for more than a couple of seconds.

So I shouldn't be surprised either, when someone tells me D&T is "beautiful". It's just part of the human variety.
It's only I have a different sensitivity about MtG decks, and that's all.

It comes now to my mind an example taken from music, which may further clarify my feeling about D&T: I'm always a bit irritated when someone tells me he considers the music band "The Queen" as one of the greatest in music history.
Of course I could be wrong on this matter too, but I consider "The Queen" to be a good music band, just very far from the highest expressions of modern music.
In a similar way, I think the way D&T is built should make him win specific matchups (= being "good"), but not to beat almost everything (= being "great").
After all, the fact it's great against the "best decks/cards in the format" is not entirely valid: truth is, it's great against many other decks/cards too!
It looks like a "fringe" deck and plays many "fringe" cards, but fringe decks usually don't have such a large range of good/great matchups.
D&T has an answer to pretty much anything, and that answer probably is cheap and maindecked. In a monocolor deck playing for the most part creatures and creatures enhancers, this looks insane.

Maybe that's what I call "toxic": the fact that it can accomplish the best results with the "worst" cards. It seems just... well, it seems unfair to me.
But again: that's the same peculiarity you are calling "beautiful", so we'll probably never agree on this.


But don't get me wrong: this deck is very solid, very strong and very smart built.
It's also one of the decks best supported by it's "community of players" (the thread on Mtgsalvation is simply great, something you should be proud of), which means he can adapt very fast and smoothly to any metagame shift, so I think it will be a dominant force for many years to come.
Of course you are more than happy with that, while I'm worried.


It's been nice talking to you guys, I'll probably lurk around here more often.

[Fry]

Hi Finn,
If I had to summarize your words about "your" deck (or let's say the most famous among the decks you created), I'd say you consider it to "win ugly but smart", while its beauty lies in turning great cards (and decks) into bad cards (and decks), using worse cards than the ones you've just turned into ash.

Well, if you used the term "power" in place of "beauty", I couldn't agree more. Crushing many Tier 1 decks with a smile on your face is clearly powerful.
On the other hand, the concept of "beauty" is completely subjective, so talking in these terms of an MtG deck would be a bit meaningless.

I did because, in simple terms, I consider it to be one of the most frustrating deck to lose against, while I don't think it's that funny to play with. I'm pretty curious about this: do you enjoy the mechanics of this deck in themselves? I mean: tapping lands with Rishadan, tapping Moms to save your creatures, landing Thalias and Revokers to negate opponent's plans, flashing in Mindcensor to negate even fetchlands, and so on... is that "fun" to you, or it only feels strong? Again, that's an honest and not-provoking question: I've played D&T too and I never felt "excited", if you know what I mean.

I can only guess (because I never really "felt" it) that the most "fun" part of playing D&T is exactly what you emphasize so well: the intimate satisfaction of watching the "best decks and cards" crumble beneath the feet of your (apparently) "not-overpowered" stuff.

It shouldn't be a surprise that, while D&T players obviously enjoy this (slightly perverse) feeling, most of the other MtG players can find it annoying both win and lose this way.

Maybe that's what I call "toxic": the fact that it can accomplish the best results with the "worst" cards. It seems just... well, it seems unfair to me.
But again: that's the same peculiarity you are calling "beautiful", so we'll probably never agree on this.


But don't get me wrong: this deck is very solid, very strong and very smart built.
It's also one of the decks best supported by it's "community of players" (the thread on Mtgsalvation is simply great, something you should be proud of), which means he can adapt very fast and smoothly to any metagame shift, so I think it will be a dominant force for many years to come.


I personally love this deck because it's full of tricks and it makes me think about how to respond to threats, or even neutralize them before they have the chance to become a threat. My list has always been different from the "typical lists" because I love Leonin Arbiter a lot...

Main Board:

4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Plains

Side Board:

2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Imposing Sovereign
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
2x Wing Shards
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

I've played this deck for several years and I did well with it the very first time I ever played it (First place at Jupiter Games a few years back, beat the only guy I lost to in the swiss for the first place finish who was on Turbo-Drazi, Rock Lee here on the Source)... I still find some new random trick here and there when I'm playing and it's great fun... I even ported the deck over to Modern and started the thread here for the Modern version, which mine has changed and is quite different from everyone else's (Big shocker there. lol)

The reason why I love playing MUD is the same as the reason why I love playing this deck. Both decks are full of tricks (I do Forgemaster over Stompy because of the tricks) and decks like that make me think and not get bored while playing in a larger tournament. These decks make me think and exercise my brain (I also enjoy playing Nic Fit from time to time as well) with when to hold something back, not necessarily to keep from over extending, but to save the trick for a few turns down the line.

I love having AEther Vial one two and just screwing with people so hard with in response Revoker or Arbiter is even better... Vialing in Arbiter in Response to a fetch or Stoneforge is always a lot of fun to me ^_^ I love the "little" creatures that hate on people and how they get exponentially better the more different ones you have in play.

I certainly understand how annoying this deck can be to play against, to the point where most of my friends don't even want to test against it since they simply hate it so much, at least my list and how I play it. lol

~Fry~

P.S.
~I'm happy to answer any questions about my card choices if there are any that have constructive criticism, or else they will be ignored.

[Barbed Blightning]

I personally love this deck because it's full of tricks and it makes me think about how to respond to threats, or even neutralize them before they have the chance to become a threat. My list has always been different from the "typical lists" because I love Leonin Arbiter a lot...

Main Board:

4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
3x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Plains

Side Board:

2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Imposing Sovereign
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
2x Wing Shards
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

I've played this deck for several years and I did well with it the very first time I ever played it (First place at Jupiter Games a few years back, beat the only guy I lost to in the swiss for the first place finish who was on Turbo-Drazi, Rock Lee here on the Source)... I still find some new random trick here and there when I'm playing and it's great fun... I even ported the deck over to Modern and started the thread here for the Modern version, which mine has changed and is quite different from everyone else's (Big shocker there. lol)

The reason why I love playing MUD is the same as the reason why I love playing this deck. Both decks are full of tricks (I do Forgemaster over Stompy because of the tricks) and decks like that make me think and not get bored while playing in a larger tournament. These decks make me think and exercise my brain (I also enjoy playing Nic Fit from time to time as well) with when to hold something back, not necessarily to keep from over extending, but to save the trick for a few turns down the line.

I love having AEther Vial one two and just screwing with people so hard with in response Revoker or Arbiter is even better... Vialing in Arbiter in Response to a fetch or Stoneforge is always a lot of fun to me ^_^ I love the "little" creatures that hate on people and how they get exponentially better the more different ones you have in play.

I certainly understand how annoying this deck can be to play against, to the point where most of my friends don't even want to test against it since they simply hate it so much, at least my list and how I play it. lol

~Fry~

P.S.
~I'm happy to answer any questions about my card choices if there are any that have constructive criticism, or else they will be ignored.

Hey man! We played the mirror a while back at Jupiter. Still rocking the Arbiters I see. Tested against Elves much with your list? Looks like you actually stand a chance with Arbiter.

I pretty much agree with your reasons why you love D&T, especially the lack of boredom when playing.

[berry]

snip

DavidHernandez:
In that meta, I could understand it. Although while Mirran Crusader is not bad against Elves I have felt it really doesn't stop them from winning and is just "another" evasion creature, like any of our fliers. If evasion is our only plan we tend to lose that game, anyway. Our plan (game 1) must generally be to find an equipment and Revokers as fast as possible to disrupt, disrupt, disrupt. I have felt like the two BUG-decks are the only time my Mirran has been absolutely wonderful. But I will probably keep 1 in for now. I am currently only running 3 Karakas anyway, but 1 Horizon Canopy over 2nd Cavern of Souls. Not sure I want another Cavern.

[Penguinizer]

I just got back from the Finnish Legacy Championship 2013 where I went 2-3-2. This is a very short and concise report of how it went. I ran the following build:
Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Fiend Hunter

Overall, I was happy with the deck but in the future would change Aven Mindcensor for something else. I played against (in no particular order): Foodchain, Bug, URW, Monored Painter, Junk, Jund, BG Spanish Inquisition. I lost to Bug because I sideboarded badly, Jund because I got outplayed and URW because I got outplayed/didn't draw an answer to Grim Lavamancer. I beat the combo decks and tied with Painter/Junk. Most of the losses/ties were extremely close games so I'm happy anyways.

The only match that I should have lost was the Junk matchup, simply because my opponent completely forgot to use karakas on my Thalia/Mangara to stop me from doing tricks to keep Batterskull from combat. (Attack, get blocked (baited him to put it in play), Karakas, hardcast. On his turn when he attacks me, block and vial in another one to sac the one that's in combat.)

[Quasim0ff]

I just got back from the Finnish Legacy Championship 2013 where I went 2-3-2. This is a very short and concise report of how it went. I ran the following build:
Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Fiend Hunter

Overall, I was happy with the deck but in the future would change Aven Mindcensor for something else. I played against (in no particular order): Foodchain, Bug, URW, Monored Painter, Junk, Jund, BG Spanish Inquisition. I lost to Bug because I sideboarded badly, Jund because I got outplayed and URW because I got outplayed/didn't draw an answer to Grim Lavamancer. I beat the combo decks and tied with Painter/Junk. Most of the losses/ties were extremely close games so I'm happy anyways.

The only match that I should have lost was the Junk matchup, simply because my opponent completely forgot to use karakas on my Thalia/Mangara to stop me from doing tricks to keep Batterskull from combat. (Attack, get blocked (baited him to put it in play), Karakas, hardcast. On his turn when he attacks me, block and vial in another one to sac the one that's in combat.)
Mindsencor is really strong vs ant/tutor based decks, though.

[Barbed Blightning]

Mindsencor is really strong vs ant/tutor based decks, though.

Ehhhhh. He's OK vs tutor decks, certainly not better than canonist or Thalia vs Storm. His only real application is against Elves, honestly. Even then, because he costs 3, he's always a turn too late.

@ peguinizer: cool list, very old school. Question: where is the 4th port?

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[berry]

I agree that the 4th Rishadan Port is critical and even more so the Batterskull (but I think I read somewhere that you have not found one to get yet?)

Besides that you really should just cut those Flagstones for Plains (or singletons Horizon Canopy/Cavern of Souls/Eiganjo Castle after taste... but max 2 of the 3 Flagstones, imho.)

That meta of yours seems very wild, but I would still consider artifact/equipment-hate in the SB instead of those Fiend Hunters. But if your meta is not as overrun with SFM as the rest of the world (it seems) then maybe not.

[Penguinizer]

Ehhhhh. He's OK vs tutor decks, certainly not better than canonist or Thalia vs Storm. His only real application is against Elves, honestly. Even then, because he costs 3, he's always a turn too late.

@ peguinizer: cool list, very old school. Question: where is the 4th port?

I agree with you on Mindcensor. It's just a bit on the slow side and is too easy to get rid of. As for the 4th port. It's stuck in limbo like the Batterskull I should have. I always forget to get one until right before a tournament and then can't get one on time.

[Finn]

Folks, Mindcensor is a sideboard card.

My beef with it now is that I find myself unhappy to bring it in against the True-Name Nemesis decks. It is not a natural fit there. I have it in my sb still because it comes in against combo - and it flies. So I thought I would be bringing it in against True Blade decks. So now I am about ready to cut it.

[from Cairo]

Folks, Mindcensor is a sideboard card.

My beef with it now is that I find myself unhappy to bring it in against the True-Name Nemesis decks. It is not a natural fit there. I have it in my sb still because it comes in against combo - and it flies. So I thought I would be bringing it in against True Blade decks. So now I am about ready to cut it.

There's a lot that's not perfect with Aven Mindcensor. I have a hard time viewing it as a SB card because it is slow, often indirect, and other than against NO inefficient hate. I'm almost never going to feel great about bringing it in. Against Stoneforge Mystic and Infernal Tutor based decks I think his tax comes online too slow of the most part. Against SFM/TNN decks it's still nice to have the evasive threat and the inconvenience against their fetchlands, but probably doesn't line up with hating out their most important Library search in SFM; Games 2 and 3 I would prefer a Disenchant effect to attack these decks rather than drawing into Mindcensor after they've searched up Jitte. Against Infernal Tutor decks the fact that it interacts at all is enough to make it more desirable than 1/3rd of our deck, but falls short to Ethersworn Canonist as direct hate. Against Intuition, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order and Goblin Matron it's more on-speed. Intuition shows up in some of the Sneak and Show lists, some OmniTell lists, and often out of Lands variants. In these match ups I feel it's appropriate hate. Thalia is more powerful against Show and Tell, but curving into a Aven Mindcensor against a Intuition or even just as a Sinkhole against a Fetch is great. Green Sun's Zenith and NO are obviously present in Elves - interacting with Natural Order is worth it's weight in gold in this match up as we're so cold to early Craterhoofs and Progenitus. Nerfing GSZ is not irrelevant against both Elves and Maverick - limiting or perhaps blanking their tutor options at a given CMC. Hitting a Matron in Goblins, could potentially mean they lose their card advantage - there's a good 18ish lands, and 2-4 Vial that could be in their top 4, but keeping them off the Gempalm, Ringleader or Krenko that they really want is significant and having an on-board flier to equip up against Goblins is exactly where this deck wants to be.

This for the most part just addresses the card for half it's rules text: "If an opponent would search a library, that player searches the top four cards of that library instead." The other half of Aven Mindcensor is 2W 2/1 Flash Flying - on the proactive fliers at 2-3 mana after Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp what options are really available? The cards that come to mind are: Stonecloaker, and Kor Skyfisher; having Gatherer searched not much else pops out as providing an evasive body without a drawback, much less a semi-relevant tax.

I think the card fits well in a TNN metagame where Mangara inevitability is less guaranteed. Both cards are soft to -1/-1 effects, both cards at 3 mana are somewhat slow and are likely high on the chopping block for Games 2 and 3, looking for more efficient options post-board. Mangara probably provides better inevitability if games are going long, where Aven Mindcensor addresses an important problem match up for the deck. The fact that the tax, while frequently a turn slow, does attack Stoneforge Mystic is also relevant. Often opposing decks will get their search in before Aven Mindcensor hits the field, but even if it's not likely the fact that the card can limit access to opposing Jittes means it addresses one of Death and Taxes' biggest weaknesses.

[klaus]

I'm pretty sure Thorn of Amethyst has been discussed several times before. In the wake of the predicted rise of Combo & Miracles I wanted to re-evaluate it again real quick anyway. Thalia is by far the most valuable Combo hate imo. Thorn does the same minus the 2 dmg/turn. I get that a protected Canonist is superb as well and sweet against Elves (though it does not add up in multiples), however the prime reason Thorn could actually be cool is Miracles going 2/2 on the Supreme Verdict / Terminus split and Entreat the Angeles being their only real threat. Extra taxing EtA and Verdict with a permanent that does not get hit by Terminus, Dread of Night, Massacre (Combo), etc. looks very appealing to me, which is why I'll be testing a 2/2 split among Canonist and Thorn for a bit.
Thoughts?

[Penguinizer]

Thorn of Amethyst could work. I may end up giving it a shot in my SB over Aven Mindcensor. However, I'd much rather try to have some sort of answer to True-Name Nemesis that isn't something silly like Holy Light or overly niche like Runed Halo. Not having a proper answer for it was one of the most frustrating things I found. Luckily I only had two matchups with it and both decks only ran 3 (I think) I think. I only had to face down one at a time so I could just Revoker Jitte and race it, but if he had gotten two or stuck an equipment I'd have been dead.

[Barbed Blightning]

Why would we want to run Thorn when we already have Thalia? Miracles isn't that hard of a matchup, especially if you have a needle on Top, and the extra tax will accomplish jack over the long game, where they shine anyway. In my boarding, I do:

-4 StP
-2 Mom
-1 Jitte

+2 Cataclysm/Seal of Cleansing
+2 Canonist
+2 Liege
+1 Needle

It's the goblins strategy--overload on dudes and don't overextend into a board wipe.

Though thorn cannot be killed by a board wipe or massacre, Thalia usually can be bounced back and revialed after the coast clears. DoN is not common in SB's right now, since Golgari Charm also hits TNN and E Plague is more flexible


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[Kl'rt]

After posting earlier I went on to start the 40-something (let's say 45 for good measure) tournament 4-0 (won against Team America, Shardless, UR & Affinity) only to get paired down and have to play against UWR Delver which I lost terribly to a TNN with an equipped Jitte x2. Drew into top8 and lost in the quarters to eventual winner playing Esperblade in a tight game 3, but again TNN + batterskull did the job for him.



Is it safe to say this deck has trouble vs the TNN+Stoneforge decks then? I was looking to build a new deck that is competitive in the new TNN meta (without playing combo or TNN myself), but I'm not sure about this one anymore. I read in here that one of D&T's equipped flyers can try to outrace a TNN, but I'm not so confident in this plan. I haven't done any playtesting yet, but I imagine a Jitte equipped TNN just wrecks D&T. Am I wrong?

[Barbed Blightning]

Is it safe to say this deck has trouble vs the TNN+Stoneforge decks then? I was looking to build a new deck that is competitive in the new TNN meta (without playing combo or TNN myself), but I'm not sure about this one anymore. I read in here that one of D&T's equipped flyers can try to outrace a TNN, but I'm not so confident in this plan. I haven't done any playtesting yet, but I imagine a Jitte equipped TNN just wrecks D&T. Am I wrong?

You're right, but a Serra Avenger equipped with SoFI will wreck a TNN deck just as savagely. And something like a singleton Spellskite main can just negate a jitte--in addition to Revoker and Needle.

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[Havoc]

ive changed my build to have more flyers and am running 2 moats. so far the match ups have appeared favorable so long as they dont land a delver or clique early. i can usually ride the moat and a avenger with a sword or jitte and a mother to victory

[from Cairo]

ive changed my build to have more flyers and am running 2 moats. so far the match ups have appeared favorable so long as they dont land a delver or clique early. i can usually ride the moat and a avenger with a sword or jitte and a mother to victory

What constitutes "more flyers"? Also what are "the match ups"?

[_erbs_]

Side Board:
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Imposing Sovereign
3x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Thalia, Guardian Of Thraben
2x Wing Shards
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

P.S.
~I'm happy to answer any questions about my card choices if there are any that have constructive criticism, or else they will be ignored.

Hello Fry,
Where or when do you use Imposing Sovereign besides the obvious sneak and show, is it worth the slot to say just use o-ring, im just assuming here, that the sovereign is for sneak and show. i like your list but why not run 3 mindcensor somewhere in your list maybe bumping down mangaara to 2 and mirran and some others.

Aren't you having problems with just 21 lands ? i normally run 22 or 23 and at times i struggle with mana on my 22 or 23 list

Additional question..
Why aren't you running any GY hate ? rest in peace i feel is a good main card as DRS is very common in the meta right now

Thanks and good day

[Specter]

What about Kor Heaven vs TNN?

[Echelon]

What about it? It kinda has the words "target creature" on it, meaning it's useless against TNN.

Also, the Imposing Sovereign could be use in conjunction with Meekstone to prevent any creature with power 3 or greater from ever doing anything. This would incidentally include the dreaded TNN. And Delvers. And Mongeese. And Goyfs. And anything Reanimator or Sneak & Show would throw at you. Perhaps the Sovereign can be replaced by Blind Obedience to make the combo it a bit harder to kill, since then neither piece'd die to Lightning Bolt or STP

[Ralf]

What about it? It kinda has the words "target creature" on it, meaning it's useless against TNN.

Also, the Imposing Sovereign could be use in conjunction with Meekstone to prevent any creature with power 3 or greater from ever doing anything. This would incidentally include the dreaded TNN. And Delvers. And Mongeese. And Goyfs. And anything Reanimator or Sneak & Show would throw at you. Perhaps the Sovereign can be replaced by Blind Obedience to make the combo it a bit harder to kill, since then neither piece'd die to Lightning Bolt or STP

Don't fool around with Imposing Sovereign or Blind Obedience if you think you could lock a S&T player.
Your opponent can still slam Grisel/Emmy at your "end of turn" and screw you BIG TIME...

My two cents.

[Echelon]

Don't fool around with Imposing Sovereign or Blind Obedience if you think you could lock a S&T player.
Your opponent can still slam Grisel/Emmy at your "end of turn" and screw you BIG TIME...

My two cents.

Hence the Meekstone. Any creature your opponents play will enter the battlefield tapped and if that creature's power is greater then 2, it'll never untap again (as long as the Meekstone remains in play, obviously). So it won't matter when they slam said fattie, it'll simply enter the battlefield tapped and stay that way indefinitely.

[_erbs_]

Hence the Meekstone. Any creature your opponents play will enter the battlefield tapped and if that creature's power is greater then 2, it'll never untap again (as long as the Meekstone remains in play, obviously). So it won't matter when they slam said fattie, it'll simply enter the battlefield tapped and stay that way indefinitely.

Hi,
I also have a Meekstone + Sovereign combo, i choose sovereign bec its a body and can be protected by mom as compared to blind obedience. the question now is how do you go about it, would you main deck the said combo or play them both on the side..

if you think about it meekstone is good on its own, it could act as a 1cc wrath of god when your opponent goes for an all out attack on you and assuming all of them has a power of 3 up.

but drawing multiple meekstone is no use aswell.. so now what..

[Echelon]

Depending on the meta it could be rather fun to play both in the main. I agree on the multiple Meekstones bit. On the other hand, if it already has managed to lock your opponent out of attacking, I guess you're on the winning hand already anyway so it wouldn't matter all that much that you drew a second one. And after sideboarding your opponent might board in a number of hate cards, so you might actually need a second copy.

[Kayradis]

Hi there,
Elves! player slowly learning D&T in order to expand my horizons.


I can get behind the Sovereing/Meekstone combo against Sneak&Show decks. Meekstone was really usefull at DC against those decks, so I can support that theory easily.

[Echelon]

How do you feel about it against say RUG or UWR Delver?

[Kayradis]

In my view of the current metagame, 3 to 4 slots against Sneak&Breach/Sneak&Show that also could be used against fringes decks (Read here : Meathooks/Zoo/Maverick) are not bad.
Still. I support the idea, but I am not saying its 100% right. Unless proven in the heat of the battle, I can't say its reliable.
Meekstone is good against flipped Delver and RUG/WUR packs 1 maybe 2 piece of artifact removal (Wear//Tear or KGrip).

[Tylert]

In my view of the current metagame, 3 to 4 slots against Sneak&Breach/Sneak&Show that also could be used against fringes decks (Read here : Meathooks/Zoo/Maverick) are not bad.
Still. I support the idea, but I am not saying its 100% right. Unless proven in the heat of the battle, I can't say its reliable.
Meekstone is good against flipped Delver and RUG/WUR packs 1 maybe 2 piece of artifact removal (Wear//Tear or KGrip).

Sneak and show is already a good match up for us.
don't overdo it.

Mana denial + karakas + Mangara + revokers all main deck + cannonist from the board for omnitell versions is already more than enough.
You'd better not play more cards that are bad against our bad match up: elves.
Against goyf or KotR decks you have rest in peace.

[Echelon]

Imposing Sovereign/Blind Obedience does buy you a turn when playing against elves. The only way they'll be able to glimpse-chain is if they manage to get 3 Nettle Sentinel on the board. Also, when combined with Meekstone it shuts down the Progenitus plan entirely.

[Barbed Blightning]

I think the real question is: how consistently can we get the combo online and at what cost? How many slots do you commit? What do we lose?

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[Barbed Blightning]

Andrew Shrout playing an aggro version of D&T in the top 8 of the invitational. First round vs Jund. Good luck!

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[lordofthepit]

Andrew Shrout playing an aggro version of D&T in the top 8 of the invitational. First round vs Jund. Good luck!

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Pretty sure the top 8 of the Invitational is Standard format, which is why I'm not watching.

[Barbed Blightning]

So it is. Blech

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[Tylert]

Taken from the sneak and show matchup analysis:


Death and Taxes 35:65

This is probably the toughest matchup and alongside Reanimator the only negative one of the tier decks. Pre-board they need nothing more than Karakas + Revoker to completely lock us out of the game. Post-board they have additional Revoker-effects in Pithing Needle.

I played against D&T in the magiccardmarket.eu tournament some weeks ago. After losing game 1 to Karakas+Revoker, I opened G2 on the play with a Gitaxian Probe; it showed me:

Karakas
Plains
Oblivion Ring
Mangara of Corondor
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Stoneforge Mystic

My frantic cantripping couldn't find me one of the 2 Progenitus I had boarded in. Most lists would just instant-scoop to a hand like this, which shows how ridiculously bad the matchup is.

Pyroclasm, Through the Breach and Bounce are still good weapons to fight their hate; Progenitus, Massacre Wurm and Sulfur Elemental are more dedicated anti-D&T sideboard options. Blood Moon helps against the Karakas and mana-denial plan with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Rishadan Port and Wasteland.

Cards you want to sideboard against Death & Taxes : Progenitus, Blood Moon, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Through the Breach


THis really shows that you don't need more cards for this match up, if even them do think it is a very bad matchup.

[Oreia]

Hey guys it's me again, after quite a while i'm back for another tournment report(this time will be a local game store champ, the last one i played with this deck)
My full 75:
// Lands
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [CHK] Eiganjo Castle

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
2 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 [PLC] Sunlance
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [M14] Celestial Flare
SB: 1 [A] Meekstone
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage


Round 1 UWR Delver

G1- I knew he was on Delver because i've already played against him before so i kept a hand of Thalia + Wasteland which has enough.(Tip: Most UWR lists aren't running Lavamancers pre board so is safe to name Umezawa's Jitte/Stoneforge Mystic with a Blind Revoker if you think you need some clock or are in fear of a topdecked Jitte)

Sideboard: -2 Flickerwisp - 2 Mirran Crusaders + 1 Meekstone(Delver/TNN) + 1 Sunlance(Delver/Grim Lavamancer) +1 Manriki Gusari(Amazing to keep batterskull in check) +1 Celestial Flare(always killz 'em TNN)

G2 - Mull'ed to six in search of something better then just SFM mystic and found Revoker + 2 Moms which wasn't enough.He killed my revoker and my two Moms, got attacked to 6, his board was: Batterskull+Jitte with 4 counters, i drew Revoker(naming Jitte), he played ponder and drew land, attecked my down to 2 then i topdecked my last Flickerwisp(love this card) and killed his batterskull token, he didn't find anything relevant(just a SFM that i STPed so he coudn't return batterskull + put it into play again) and 5 a turn closed the game quickly.

1-0

Round 2 Merfolk
G1- I guess a a nut draw of "attacking" with 3 Mutavaults + a lord is not enough against a jitte+ Thalia and triple port.

Sideboard- Out- Same as Round 1(Thalia is pretty sick at blocking everything in their deck) - In- 1 Meekstone 1 Sulance 1Celestial Flare(something it works, it's a pseudo STP) 1 Oblivion Ring

G2 - Kept with a Meekstone-Slow hand, figured out that i needed to empty his hands in order to cast the meekstone... Worked he didn't have pitch to FOW. He had a mutavault and an untapped Rejeerey while i had a port and a vial with 3 counters, vialed Wisp to remove rejeerey, tapped mutavault and attacked with mom carrying a jitte(that OBV dominated the game 2 turns later).

2-0

Round 3 UWR Delver(the guy that won this year's Legacy national here in Brazil)

G1 Really grindy game, he resolved a TNN while i was at 14 life, i had a Thalia then cast a Aven mindcensor, he has crushing my for 3 while i was alphaing for 4, i drew a revoker, he left TNN untapped to block but it was too late, i had 2 in the air everyturn and 2 ports for his lands(+Thalia).

Sideboard - Out/IN - Same as Round 1

G2 Kept a nice hand with only Karakas as white source, of course i got wastelanded and my mom got killed.... I got crushed by 2 blindflipped delvers.

G3 - Almost the same as g1, i drew 3 ports and a meekstone, which resolved with a TNN and a flipped delver tapped in his side, i could menage to win though Thalia + ports again. That's why i love this deck.

3-0

Round 4 Lands

I am a long time Lands player(much before i ever thought about playing DnT) so i know everything the deck can do.

I Id'ed and splitted the finals but we played and he lost(another secret tip: Flickerwisp resets Engeneered Explosives, chalice and mox.... good lucky playing against lands, haha)

That's it, sorry for the long post, i hope you guys liked it, this time i didn't drew more then a vial, if i had i could do a lot of tricks but anyway the deck performed well. Take care and good lucky on your next tournment!

[_erbs_]

Hey guys it's me again, after quite a while i'm back for another tournment report(this time will be a local game store champ, the last one i played with this deck)
My full 75:
// Lands
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [CHK] Eiganjo Castle

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
2 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 [PLC] Sunlance
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [M14] Celestial Flare
SB: 1 [A] Meekstone
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage

Hello,
Nice report and grats !

Just wondering how did aven mindcensor performed for you ? that card for me seems to be a hit or miss card, if you are able to play it early its nice but at times even on the 3rd turn its just too late..., isn't leonin arbiter does a better job over aven as it could come down a turn earlier ?

Do you still plan on running 2 pcs of aven ? the number aswell seems too low for it to come down early

[Barbed Blightning]

Taken from the sneak and show matchup analysis:



THis really shows that you don't need more cards for this match up, if even them do think it is a very bad matchup.

I agree, I've taken all o rings from my board to squeeze in mindcensor. Along with Seal of Cleansing and Needle, we need not add hate for positive MUs


One thing I am interested in main is [CARDS]Tower of the Magistrate [ /CARDS]. It has both offensive and defensive uses, esp. in negating SoFI and slowing Jitte. As a one-of, I think it passes my "no cute tricks" rule.

Any thoughts?


Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[danyul]

Tower can't target TNN. Manriki Gusari seems better. You can also fetch Manriki via SFM as opposed to waiting to draw into a singleton land. But I don't play D&T so feel free to ignore meeeeeeee!

[from Cairo]

I think Tower of the Magistrate is passable. I wouldn't want it conflicting with 15 White sources though. IE 9-10 Plains, 3-4 Karakas, 1-2 Canopy/Cavern/Castle - I would want these to equal 15 before I devoted one of our 23 mana sources to Tower. I would be comfortable with it MD to sub for a spell slot (maybe in a specific meta to sub for a colorless utility land) or out of the SB to come in for a colorless source or spell per need.

I think it's worth noting that it still doesn't answer Jitte on a TNN all that well, something like Disenchant or Spellskite is still probably stronger.

[Oreia]

Hello,
Nice report and grats !

Just wondering how did aven mindcensor performed for you ? that card for me seems to be a hit or miss card, if you are able to play it early its nice but at times even on the 3rd turn its just too late..., isn't leonin arbiter does a better job over aven as it could come down a turn earlier ?

Do you still plan on running 2 pcs of aven ? the number aswell seems too low for it to come down early

I don't think i'll cut the Avens, at least not for now, that guy is NUTS, it shuts down some of your bad matches(Infernal Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Merchant Scroll), swings 2 in the air and sometimes is fast enough to stop some of the SFM decks(UWR being the most commom one).

it also scares the creep out of the opponent, when you have vial sitting on 3 try to activate it during combat or on upkeep just to scare the guy, when you really draw the Aven/Flickerwisps they won't even see it comming.

[_erbs_]

I don't think i'll cut the Avens, at least not for now, that guy is NUTS, it shuts down some of your bad matches(Infernal Tutor, Green Sun's Zenith, Merchant Scroll), swings 2 in the air and sometimes is fast enough to stop some of the SFM decks(UWR being the most commom one).

it also scares the creep out of the opponent, when you have vial sitting on 3 try to activate it during combat or on upkeep just to scare the guy, when you really draw the Aven/Flickerwisps they won't even see it comming.

I know its good but i feel its really a miss or hit card.., if you value them highly why not increase the count to 3 or 4 ? instead of 2..

[Phoenix13]

Is there a particular reason why Aven Mindcensor has been replacing Mangara in recent decklists?

[Barbed Blightning]

Elves is the particular reason. However, not everyone (myself included) is convinced that it is the right move. I have relegated AM to the SB for now

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Oreia]

Is there a particular reason why Aven Mindcensor has been replacing Mangara in recent decklists?

At first i just copied Thomas Enevoldsen's last list from BOM, where he cut the mangaras and left the Mindcensor.After playing for some time with the list i figured out that the mangaras wasn't making the cut in the deck, it was a side out in EVERY single match, exept for the ones that were already good(omnitell, sneak and show).

Also, the Avens has some more upsides: It Flys(in a sea of True-Name Nemesis it is really good, even with the SoFI having the hability to pass by with any help i great), and it's a MD hate against ANT(Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor),High Tide(which is a tough matchup, it locks fetchs and merchant scroll), Elves(HORRIBLE MATCHUP, having Avens against this deck is just amazing, GSZ, fetchs and NO looks silly against you) and any deck with intuition(Lands, Omnitell, Sneak Attack, UW Painters).

Well, that's my argument for keeping the Avens in the deck, hope you guys can understand my point and also show your, everytime someone show their one point of view i learn something.
Happy new Year to everybody!

[berry]

At first i just copied Thomas Enevoldsen's last list from BOM, where he cut the mangaras and left the Mindcensor.After playing for some time with the list i figured out that the mangaras wasn't making the cut in the deck, it was a side out in EVERY single match, exept for the ones that were already good(omnitell, sneak and show).

Also, the Avens has some more upsides: It Flys(in a sea of True-Name Nemesis it is really good, even with the SoFI having the hability to pass by with any help i great), and it's a MD hate against ANT(Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor),High Tide(which is a tough matchup, it locks fetchs and merchant scroll), Elves(HORRIBLE MATCHUP, having Avens against this deck is just amazing, GSZ, fetchs and NO looks silly against you) and any deck with intuition(Lands, Omnitell, Sneak Attack, UW Painters).

Well, that's my argument for keeping the Avens in the deck, hope you guys can understand my point and also show your, everytime someone show their one point of view i learn something.
Happy new Year to everybody!

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card. Siding something out means it doesn't have a home postboard, not preboard. There is a reason we always have card X in the sideboard, and maybe side it in in "a majority" of games, but it's still a sideboard card. While another card Y might be great and diverse in post board games but not good enough postboard (maybe because card X is better and _more specific_, or because card Y is bad against something they board in).

Are you following? In my eyes Mangara is that card, it's a diverse answer and a generally strong card but post board it's a 3 CMC 1 toughness and isn't very specific, etc, etc. Meanwhile, Mindcensor is kinda trying to be specific in a broad metagame and is thus in my eyes more of a sideboard-card.

I'm not saying this IS how it IS, it's how I see these cards, and it's a way to look at cards that most be remembered anyhow.

[klaus]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card. Siding something out means it doesn't have a home postboard, not preboard. There is a reason we always have card X in the sideboard, and maybe side it in in "a majority" of games, but it's still a sideboard card. While another card Y might be great and diverse in post board games but not good enough postboard (maybe because card X is better and _more specific_, or because card Y is bad against something they board in).

Are you following? In my eyes Mangara is that card, it's a diverse answer and a generally strong card but post board it's a 3 CMC 1 toughness and isn't very specific, etc, etc. Meanwhile, Mindcensor is kinda trying to be specific in a broad metagame and is thus in my eyes more of a sideboard-card.

If there's a spell you find yourself boarding out >90% of Gs2/3 and board in a certain SB spell >70% of the time you should seriously consider rebuilding that mo'fo. :wink: It's called meta'ing© or something.

[Arsenal]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.

This makes no sense whatsoever.

[Mr. Froggy]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.

I find this makes no sense, at all..

Also, I still run with Enevoldsen's GP Strasbourg list.. Haven't needed to change anything from the deck. Well, in my playgroup at least.

[Finn]

Well, Mangara is bad against True Name Nemesis. I think that the decks that we were seeing over the last month or so were a reaction to that card. I have been faring well against decks with Nemesis, so I have been comfortable keeping Mangara in. If my experiences prove typical, we can expect to see Mangara creep back I to those lists that had cut him.

[from Cairo]

A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.
This makes no sense whatsoever.




A card can be sided out every game and still be a maindeck card.
I find this makes no sense, at all..

Theoretically, I follow Berry's point that Mangara has broad application, Vindicate on a body does [tries to do] something in almost every game. If enough of the meta is sufficiently attacked by a slow-Vindicate it could be a passable MD card. Varying more narrow/match specific options could replace it in most post board scenarios. Practically, in a card pool as large as Legacy, if a card isn't pulling it's weight in 1/2-2/3 of games there is probably a better MD card.

[berry]

Theoretically, I follow Berry's point that Mangara has broad application, Vindicate on a body does [tries to do] something in almost every game. If enough of the meta is sufficiently attacked by a slow-Vindicate it could be a passable MD card. Varying more narrow/match specific options could replace it in most post board scenarios. Practically, in a card pool as large as Legacy, if a card isn't pulling it's weight in 1/2-2/3 of games there is probably a better MD card.

I _think_ you're saying what I was trying to say, thanks.

[DavidHernandez]

If Mangara were to be removed, what is the point of running 3 Karakas? Wouldn't Basic Plains, or some other utility lands, be better? I don't really think they'd be needed to protect Thalia.

Dave

[monovfox]

Barry is completely right about maindeckable cards that are almost-always sided out.

I almost always side out my swords to plowshares against combo. Card is clearly not playable in maindeck /sarcasm

Revoker gets sided out against RUG Delver. Doesn't make it bad either.

Spellskite gets sided out against decks lacking spot removal. Doesn't make it bad either.

[from Cairo]

If Mangara were to be removed, what is the point of running 3 Karakas? Wouldn't Basic Plains, or some other utility lands, be better? I don't really think they'd be needed to protect Thalia.

Their utility with Thalia and the added protection against opponents' Legendary Creatures is valuable. Basic Plains wouldn't be better, there is very little downside to Karakas. It's upsides make Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hypergenesis, Tin Fins and Miracles much more favorable matches. It's downside is making our Wasteland susceptibility slightly larger, our matches against Wasteland Tempo decks are generally not poor to begin with. I think Karakas 1-3 are better than the first copies of Eiganjo Castle, Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factory. I wouldn't want to go above 2 Horizon Canopy regardless of Karakas count.

[DavidHernandez]

Their utility with Thalia and the added protection against opponents' Legendary Creatures is valuable. Basic Plains wouldn't be better, there is very little downside to Karakas. It's upsides make Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Hypergenesis, Tin Fins and Miracles much more favorable matches. It's downside is making our Wasteland susceptibility slightly larger, our matches against Wasteland Tempo decks are generally not poor to begin with. I think Karakas 1-3 are better than the first copies of Eiganjo Castle, Cavern of Souls and Mishra's Factory. I wouldn't want to go above 2 Horizon Canopy regardless of Karakas count.

That makes sense. Thanks.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Hi guys! Figured i should finally get an account to chime in from time to time rather than just hanging around and stealing your ideas.

The interaction that I like the most in Death and Taxes is vial/Karakas/Mangara, but as the format gets faster and plays get more and more powerful, it doesn´t make much sense anymore. If you want a maindeck (to be sided out in 90% of match-ups) answer to permanents, consider unexpectedly absent.

I´ve got more of an idea about Vintage than Legacy, so I may be off base here, but why are there no chalice of the void in people´s sideboards? Chalice for one seems like a very strong play against at least three of the deck´s harder match-ups; Elves!, Canadian Thresh and High Tide. Chalice for zero should make the storm match-up close to un-loosable.

Grafdigger´s cage seems like it should be more than a one-of in sideboards if there are Elves!, Reanimator or Nic Fit in the meta. This deck has no tutors, after all.

Lastly, what is your experience splashing green for Gaddock Teeg? The splash seems possible and the guy does some serious damage against a broad range of decks. It also seems like a decent idea to add another bounce-able blocker to the maindeck. Knight of the Reliquary may be worse in a deathrite-infected metagame, but is either big or at least a fine utility creature (answering Show and Tell from your hand, among other things). Something like this?

3 Horizon Canopy (Love this card. Counteracts flooding from the 23-card land base.)
2 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Plains (how bad is this low number really? We should generally be the most stable wasteland deck.)

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Flickerwisp

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Grafdigger´s Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg

[DavidHernandez]

Hi guys! Figured i should finally get an account to chime in from time to time rather than just hanging around and stealing your ideas.

The interaction that I like the most in Death and Taxes is vial/Karakas/Mangara, but as the format gets faster and plays get more and more powerful, it doesn´t make much sense anymore. If you want a maindeck (to be sided out in 90% of match-ups) answer to permanents, consider unexpectedly absent.

I´ve got more of an idea about Vintage than Legacy, so I may be off base here, but why are there no chalice of the void in people´s sideboards? Chalice for one seems like a very strong play against at least three of the deck´s harder match-ups; Elves!, Canadian Thresh and High Tide. Chalice for zero should make the storm match-up close to un-loosable.

Grafdigger´s cage seems like it should be more than a one-of in sideboards if there are Elves!, Reanimator or Nic Fit in the meta. This deck has no tutors, after all.

Lastly, what is your experience splashing green for Gaddock Teeg? The splash seems possible and the guy does some serious damage against a broad range of decks. It also seems like a decent idea to add another bounce-able blocker to the maindeck. Knight of the Reliquary may be worse in a deathrite-infected metagame, but is either big or at least a fine utility creature (answering Show and Tell from your hand, among other things). Something like this?

3 Horizon Canopy (Love this card. Counteracts flooding from the 23-card land base.)
2 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Plains (how bad is this low number really? We should generally be the most stable wasteland deck.)

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Flickerwisp

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Grafdigger´s Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg

Chalice shuts to much of your deck down.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hi guys! Figured i should finally get an account to chime in from time to time rather than just hanging around and stealing your ideas.

The interaction that I like the most in Death and Taxes is vial/Karakas/Mangara, but as the format gets faster and plays get more and more powerful, it doesn´t make much sense anymore. If you want a maindeck (to be sided out in 90% of match-ups) answer to permanents, consider unexpectedly absent.

I´ve got more of an idea about Vintage than Legacy, so I may be off base here, but why are there no chalice of the void in people´s sideboards? Chalice for one seems like a very strong play against at least three of the deck´s harder match-ups; Elves!, Canadian Thresh and High Tide. Chalice for zero should make the storm match-up close to un-loosable.

Grafdigger´s cage seems like it should be more than a one-of in sideboards if there are Elves!, Reanimator or Nic Fit in the meta. This deck has no tutors, after all.

Lastly, what is your experience splashing green for Gaddock Teeg? The splash seems possible and the guy does some serious damage against a broad range of decks. It also seems like a decent idea to add another bounce-able blocker to the maindeck. Knight of the Reliquary may be worse in a deathrite-infected metagame, but is either big or at least a fine utility creature (answering Show and Tell from your hand, among other things). Something like this?

3 Horizon Canopy (Love this card. Counteracts flooding from the 23-card land base.)
2 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
2 Plains (how bad is this low number really? We should generally be the most stable wasteland deck.)

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Serra Avenger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Flickerwisp

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 3 Grafdigger´s Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg

The format is getting "faster"? Really? That's not at all what is happening.

DRS and TNN have, if anything, slowed the format. That's how we have risen, because we prey on the combo decks that have slowed down to be better equipped against the BGx decks and the tempo decks that prey on those combos. Seriously, when last did you find yourself against Belcher? TES? Hell, even reanimator is suffering and ANT (winning turns 3-4) is the fastest deck seeing a reasonable amount of play.

Mangara is a motherfucking wrecking ball to a lot of the rest of the format and, while he is safe to bench against many decks, the nature of this one is to make the game a hostile environment for your opposition, thus requiring the right hate post-board. Mindcensor, for example, is targeted for a specific matchup (GSZ decks) whereas bears like Revoker and Thalia hit just about everything. Mangara is indiscriminate with his removal, thus making him a great main deck card and a way to just steal some game 1s; he sucks in the SB, which many seem happy to relegate him to.

I hope this answers the broader question of Mangara's inclusion: yes he is often sided out, but he gives us a solid out to many things (look to the fringe decks like Lands), supplementing our broader game one. I've used him to bait removal, regain control on an opponent's mana or threats, as 2-for-1 on defense and simply a way to laugh at S&T decks.

Finally a list of matchups in which I keep Mangara in:

SneakShow
Omni
Miracles
Blade variants
Lands
12-post
Shardless
Maverick variants

Speaking of Mav, why should anyone play your GW list over Maverick?


Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[monovfox]

TNN significantly sped up the format. Instead of having goyf-stalled boards, we have true name nemesis killing people. It is a guaranteed 3 damage a turn. Infact, TNN is the reason you see less DRS decks being played, and why BUG Delver and Jund are the only DRS decks left (hint: They're actually fairly fast).

Also, GW DnT isn't that good. If you want to play a vial maverick deck, I suggest that is what you look at (even though it sucks)


Also, notice what decks run TNN?

Tempo, and Stoneblade. Both are not considered slow decks by any means. Especially tempo.

[klaus]

Tempo, and Stoneblade. Both are not considered slow decks by any means. Especially tempo.
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/007/666/_57c8a1a431a592af806925e57258202f.png

On a more serious note: it's hard to generalize and evaluate the format's tempo. Belcher disappearing from the landscape is not an indicator whatsoever. I don't have the numbers at hand and am not motivated to do the related research, but I have got a feeling the current amount of Combo decks is higher than 6 months ago.

[from Cairo]

I don't have the numbers at hand and am not motivated to do the related research, but I have got a feeling the current amount of Combo decks is higher than 6 months ago.

From our DTB section

http://i.imgur.com/7F12W7f.png

June 2013 - 474 pts out of a total 1574 = 30% combo

http://i.imgur.com/U0cPtHB.png

December 2013 - 874 pts out of a total 3368 = 26% combo

So I guess as far as combo decks putting up results not much has changed in 6 mo they make up 25-30% of top finishes, which sounds about right when one looks at SCG T8s and often sees 2-3 combo decks. I didn't do the math on it, but this past month seemed like about 25% tempo decks and the remaining 50% being midrange.

[Barbed Blightning]

TNN significantly sped up the format. Instead of having goyf-stalled boards, we have true name nemesis killing people. It is a guaranteed 3 damage a turn. Infact, TNN is the reason you see less DRS decks being played, and why BUG Delver and Jund are the only DRS decks left (hint: They're actually fairly fast).

Also, GW DnT isn't that good. If you want to play a vial maverick deck, I suggest that is what you look at (even though it sucks)


Also, notice what decks run TNN?

Tempo, and Stoneblade. Both are not considered slow decks by any means. Especially tempo.

TNN sped up the format by... being able to attack on turn 4? I think we're using different definitions of "fast."

If anything, TNN anchored the format to midrange speed.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Chalice shuts to much of your deck down.

I don´t think so. Most D&T lists run 12 one-drops main. None of these should be boarded out against Threshold. On the other hand, Thresh is all one-mana spells except goyf, daze and force (which may be boarded out). That doesnt seem bad to me at all.


The format is getting "faster"? Really? That's not at all what is happening.

DRS and TNN have, if anything, slowed the format. That's how we have risen, because we prey on the combo decks that have slowed down to be better equipped against the BGx decks and the tempo decks that prey on those combos. Seriously, when last did you find yourself against Belcher? TES? Hell, even reanimator is suffering and ANT (winning turns 3-4) is the fastest deck seeing a reasonable amount of play.

Mangara is a motherfucking wrecking ball to a lot of the rest of the format and, while he is safe to bench against many decks, the nature of this one is to make the game a hostile environment for your opposition, thus requiring the right hate post-board. Mindcensor, for example, is targeted for a specific matchup (GSZ decks) whereas bears like Revoker and Thalia hit just about everything. Mangara is indiscriminate with his removal, thus making him a great main deck card and a way to just steal some game 1s; he sucks in the SB, which many seem happy to relegate him to.

I hope this answers the broader question of Mangara's inclusion: yes he is often sided out, but he gives us a solid out to many things (look to the fringe decks like Lands), supplementing our broader game one. I've used him to bait removal, regain control on an opponent's mana or threats, as 2-for-1 on defense and simply a way to laugh at S&T decks.

Sorry, I was being lazy. The decks in the format have gotten more cards with high and immediate impact. Deathrite, Jace or Liliana do a lot on their own. Bloodbraid and Stoneforge have already gained advantage even if they are killed immediately. All these cards can be answered by Mangara+Karakas, but this is a 2 card-combo in the first place and the effect takes more time to set up. The more enter the battlefield effects and cheap chinese menu cards there are in the format, the less viable I believe Mangara gets. This was also why I thought Mangara had been taken out from the last iterations of Team Rocket´s (Enevoldsen and Bonde´s team) deck.

That said, I would love to be proven wrong and appreciate you explaining how Mangara is still good for you and showing which match-ups you keep him in against.


Speaking of Mav, why should anyone play your GW list over Maverick?

First of all, the list I laid out there is just D&T with a light splash. Maverick is a completely different animal. I was pretty clear about why I find the green splash interesting: Gaddock Teeg is very potent. He deals with many of the same spells that mindcensor deals with (and many others), while costing one less. As you can see from the proposed list, I´ve cut back on the number of revokers too. D&T will take a lot of collateral damage in metagames that adopt to TNN, because of all the X-1´s in most lists, dying to persecutions and golgari charms. This is another strike against mindcensor and reason to play green for Teeg and possibly KotR.

Obviously, you guys are the experienced D&T players, while I´m just posing some questions: How bad is it really to splash? Has anyone tried Chalice? Is it worth consideration?

[raikenxy]

I don´t think so. Most D&T lists run 12 one-drops main. None of these should be boarded out against Threshold. On the other hand, Thresh is all one-mana spells except goyf, daze and force (which may be boarded out). That doesnt seem bad to me at all.



Sorry, I was being lazy. The decks in the format have gotten more cards with high and immediate impact. Deathrite, Jace or Liliana do a lot on their own. Bloodbraid and Stoneforge have already gained advantage even if they are killed immediately. All these cards can be answered by Mangara+Karakas, but this is a 2 card-combo in the first place and the effect takes more time to set up. The more enter the battlefield effects and cheap chinese menu cards there are in the format, the less viable I believe Mangara gets. This was also why I thought Mangara had been taken out from the last iterations of Team Rocket´s (Enevoldsen and Bonde´s team) deck.

That said, I would love to be proven wrong and appreciate you explaining how Mangara is still good for you and showing which match-ups you keep him in against.



First of all, the list I laid out there is just D&T with a light splash. Maverick is a completely different animal. I was pretty clear about why I find the green splash interesting: Gaddock Teeg is very potent. He deals with many of the same spells that mindcensor deals with (and many others), while costing one less. As you can see from the proposed list, I´ve cut back on the number of revokers too. D&T will take a lot of collateral damage in metagames that adopt to TNN, because of all the X-1´s in most lists, dying to persecutions and golgari charms. This is another strike against mindcensor and reason to play green for Teeg and possibly KotR.

Obviously, you guys are the experienced D&T players, while I´m just posing some questions: How bad is it really to splash? Has anyone tried Chalice? Is it worth consideration?

In regards to you splashing green for gaddock teeg...

Deadguy Ale used to be one of my favorite decks, and I have since tried a death n taxes for a black splash with BOB and Tidehollow sculler... the effects were cool... but as I got to playing the deck I cut down on both the scullers to two main deck and the Bobs to 3 maindeck in place for more flickwerwisps and revokers... after several test runs yesterday with my playgroup I cut the Bobs and scullers entirely from the mainboard and have since opted for the full mono white list championed as the norm...

Splashing is a cool idea, however when you think your adding a cool splash for an added effect like i was for Bob and sculler... i was actually weakening the synergistic value of the remaining cards I was playing. By splashing colors, you open yourself up the following problems ...

-weak tempo game
- unnecessary wastelands
-requirement for fetch lands
-weakness to blood moon
- color locking yourself

these problems are not minor at all. The tempo match is in Dnt favor from every game I have ever played. If they don't counter aether vial they are pretty much dead. Running duals allows all decks playing wasteland to use soft mana denial against you, which you want to be part of your plan, you want to make your cards as live as possible, not theirs. You may think well if they have waste they'll waste a port or a karakas... well that's great... You don't care honestly if they do that as you run a high number of basic lands and no fetches. you'll always have mana for your spells. but if they waste you out of a color and you don't have a vial active you know have a dead card in your hand and your fetches are now required to get you another wasteland target in order for that card to become live. i'm not saying dnt can't get wasted out of games as i have seen it happen, but it's very relevant that all the spells require just white mana.

Blood moon is a very viable game plan used in Sneak in show to attack the metagame, one of death n taxes best matches is against this deck... there is no reason to give up game against an already favored match just so they can steal games from you.

By running fetch lands you run into the same problem that merfolk has, a lot of our cards cost WW... you want white sources, by taking lands out of your deck you run the risk of not drawing white sources when you need them ...

In regards to gaddock teeg... he's good against combo yes... however your deck already does what his base ability is anyway ? Your opponents spells will always cost "more" then four mana after being ported, wasted, and taxed by thalia. The same goes for his ability to prevent X spells from being cast... those spells are all affected by the Dnt main strategy. From playing the deck, I've always known I'm doing a good job when opponents lands are tapped and his hands are full of cards. If he has a fist full of cards on turn four, five and six it means the game plan is working, he can't cast anything, and your likely one batterskull swing away from forcing a concession.

if you like the splash by all means test it, that's what I did with black for bob and sculler, but I'm jsut warning ya I came to the conclusion that mono white is just better, more consistent, and is capable of theoretically doing what the splash cards do anyway.

[Barbed Blightning]

In regards to you splashing green for gaddock teeg...

Deadguy Ale used to be one of my favorite decks, and I have since tried a death n taxes for a black splash with BOB and Tidehollow sculler... the effects were cool... but as I got to playing the deck I cut down on both the scullers to two main deck and the Bobs to 3 maindeck in place for more flickwerwisps and revokers... after several test runs yesterday with my playgroup I cut the Bobs and scullers entirely from the mainboard and have since opted for the full mono white list championed as the norm...

Splashing is a cool idea, however when you think your adding a cool splash for an added effect like i was for Bob and sculler... i was actually weakening the synergistic value of the remaining cards I was playing. By splashing colors, you open yourself up the following problems ...

-weak tempo game
- unnecessary wastelands
-requirement for fetch lands
-weakness to blood moon
- color locking yourself

these problems are not minor at all. The tempo match is in Dnt favor from every game I have ever played. If they don't counter aether vial they are pretty much dead. Running duals allows all decks playing wasteland to use soft mana denial against you, which you want to be part of your plan, you want to make your cards as live as possible, not theirs. You may think well if they have waste they'll waste a port or a karakas... well that's great... You don't care honestly if they do that as you run a high number of basic lands and no fetches. you'll always have mana for your spells. but if they waste you out of a color and you don't have a vial active you know have a dead card in your hand and your fetches are now required to get you another wasteland target in order for that card to become live. i'm not saying dnt can't get wasted out of games as i have seen it happen, but it's very relevant that all the spells require just white mana.

Blood moon is a very viable game plan used in Sneak in show to attack the metagame, one of death n taxes best matches is against this deck... there is no reason to give up game against an already favored match just so they can steal games from you.

By running fetch lands you run into the same problem that merfolk has, a lot of our cards cost WW... you want white sources, by taking lands out of your deck you run the risk of not drawing white sources when you need them ...

In regards to gaddock teeg... he's good against combo yes... however your deck already does what his base ability is anyway ? Your opponents spells will always cost "more" then four mana after being ported, wasted, and taxed by thalia. The same goes for his ability to prevent X spells from being cast... those spells are all affected by the Dnt main strategy. From playing the deck, I've always known I'm doing a good job when opponents lands are tapped and his hands are full of cards. If he has a fist full of cards on turn four, five and six it means the game plan is working, he can't cast anything, and your likely one batterskull swing away from forcing a concession.

if you like the splash by all means test it, that's what I did with black for bob and sculler, but I'm jsut warning ya I came to the conclusion that mono white is just better, more consistent, and is capable of theoretically doing what the splash cards do anyway.

Thank you. Exactly my point: by splashing you gain some slight advantages but you sacrifice synergy and stability-critical elements of the mono W builds.

@reckless: my point was that by adding KotR and Teeg, why not GSZ? Hierarch? DRS? Why play 4 ports (or ports at all) when you have a solid toolbox with KotR?

See where I am going? Adding Teeg or Pridemage makes sense, but when we add Knight (a reasonable idea, I'll add) we might as well play a deck with a diversity of tools. This is the fundamental problem with D&T: unlike other decks, cross-pollination is basically impossible due to our primary strategy of mana denial, which relies on a high basics count.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[raikenxy]

Thank you. Exactly my point: by splashing you gain some slight advantages but you sacrifice synergy and stability-critical elements of the mono W builds.

@reckless: my point was that by adding KotR and Teeg, why not GSZ? Hierarch? DRS? Why play 4 ports (or ports at all) when you have a solid toolbox with KotR?

See where I am going? Adding Teeg or Pridemage makes sense, but when we add Knight (a reasonable idea, I'll add) we might as well play a deck with a diversity of tools. This is the fundamental problem with D&T: unlike other decks, cross-pollination is basically impossible due to our primary strategy of mana denial, which relies on a high basics count.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

@barbedlblightning : I'm glad I got your approval in my explanation lol, I am by no means a master of this deck but I intend to keep playing it until I am. Splashing black in my initial experiments always brought about cool tricks with sculler and bob provided the final kick to end games, but found the black splash just wasn't worth the downsides that came with the benefits. I can only imagine the green splash will fail as well... especially when the deck already does what the green cards would do anyway. Dnt has land redundancy in running 3 karakas and four ports/wastes, so the abilitiy of knight is almost useless as you'll most likely have already enabled your mana denial plan by the time he gets going ... gaddock teeg, though a boss in maverick.... is underwhelming in Dnt as the combination of all the decks key parts produce the effects teeg would bring to the board anyway. Also, by running knight, and more fetches, duals, you increase the power of opposing deathrite shamans. Deathrite is a kill on site card as is every time i've played against it, it screw the mana denial plan and forces us to rely on white weenie beatdown to get damage through. I don't want to make my opponents cards more powerful, i want his cards to be absolutely useless whether they're on the board or in his hand.

[berry]

@barbedlblightning : I'm glad I got your approval in my explanation lol, I am by no means a master of this deck but I intend to keep playing it until I am. Splashing black in my initial experiments always brought about cool tricks with sculler and bob provided the final kick to end games, but found the black splash just wasn't worth the downsides that came with the benefits. I can only imagine the green splash will fail as well... especially when the deck already does what the green cards would do anyway. Dnt has land redundancy in running 3 karakas and four ports/wastes, so the abilitiy of knight is almost useless as you'll most likely have already enabled your mana denial plan by the time he gets going ... gaddock teeg, though a boss in maverick.... is underwhelming in Dnt as the combination of all the decks key parts produce the effects teeg would bring to the board anyway. Also, by running knight, and more fetches, duals, you increase the power of opposing deathrite shamans. Deathrite is a kill on site card as is every time i've played against it, it screw the mana denial plan and forces us to rely on white weenie beatdown to get damage through. I don't want to make my opponents cards more powerful, i want his cards to be absolutely useless whether they're on the board or in his hand.

The not-helping-Deathrite point is one that I think is underestimated and overlooked. It's not like it's THE reason to be monocolored but it's another strong one in a meta full of DRS. I keep mono in both legacy and modern and love the feeling of "not helping".

[Barook]

Haven't played for a while due to various reasons. The current online Metagame looks kinda like this (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy), although it also takes data from the Pre-TNN meta.

Metagame currently looks like this:

- TNN decks (loads of them)
- S&T decks
- various Storm variants
- Imperial Painter
- occasional BUG decks, Jund, Miracles, Pox

I wonder what kin of MD configuration I should run. SoFaI is a given due to the amount of TNN, but what about the rest? More flyers? Or some Mangaras?

[Alfy]

The not-helping-Deathrite point is one that I think is underestimated and overlooked. It's not like it's THE reason to be monocolored but it's another strong one in a meta full of DRS. I keep mono in both legacy and modern and love the feeling of "not helping".

As someone playing a lot of DRS in modern, I'm sorry to say I agree: playing against a mono colored deck is disheartening. Not only are you not guaranteed DRS mana, but eating up your own lands often ends up making your Goyf smaller. It's rarely affects the long game, but it tend to slow things down just enough in the early turns.

[Mr. Froggy]

I went ahead and sold off a major part of my collection (on MTGO) to build this deck since I have it in real life, but no one to play against. Now I own Wastelands and Ports, both on MTGO and in card collection. :)

Finally I can test more!

[Barook]

http://de.twitch.tv/scglive

There's currently D&T on the stream. The second game was just fantastic how Andrew fought through Liliana and other locks.

Wow, just wow. If you missed it, try to catch the replay or watch the video later.

[raikenxy]

http://de.twitch.tv/scglive

There's currently D&T on the stream. The second game was just fantastic how Andrew fought through Liliana and other locks.

Wow, just wow. If you missed it, try to catch the replay or watch the video later.

I SAW THAT!!!

the match was fantastic, even though shrout lost in the end he was so close to winning it all. im not sure but i think if he had sand bagged the flickerwispinstead of being agresive with mincensor he could have won

[RecklessEmbermage]

Thanks Raikenxy and Barbed Blightning for being quite explicit and very clear. Berry too: Not helping deathrite was one of the main arguments against playing fetchlands (and non-basics in general) that I had in mind in the first place.

I´ll see if I get some testing in, but am sure you´re right.

Edit: By the way, watching the stream, and... Jund Depths looks awesome!

[Mr. Froggy]

Playing this deck is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be...

I love how the engine controls though; its like throwing wrenches in peoples' gears.

[Kayradis]

I do have the deck IRL and it's simply so fun to play.
I got Elves! on MTGO.
Wanna test on it?

[Mr. Froggy]

I do have the deck IRL and it's simply so fun to play.
I got Elves! on MTGO.
Wanna test on it?

I just lost horribly on MTGO vs Elves :P

[Mr. Froggy]

I beat Elves! :)

Wasn't easy though, but I got the win. I'll post my game on YouTube if you guys want to see, and maybe critique my plays? :)

EDIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_Z-0NUo-3c

Videos are live, take a look!

[Barbed Blightning]

Playing this deck is a lot harder than I thought it was going to be...

I love how the engine controls though; its like throwing wrenches in peoples' gears.

The beauty is that you get to sit there like "what's the matter?"

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

I find it funny how a bunch of weenies turn every other deck crazy bad. When you get the engine started, it puts people back so far.

Just need to practice more with the deck, and learn its million intricacies.

[Barbed Blightning]

I find it funny how a bunch of weenies turn every other deck crazy bad. When you get the engine started, it puts people back so far.

Just need to practice more with the deck, and learn its million intricacies.

That's exactly the right attitude. I feel like much of the drive to "innovate" the deck comes from a lack of practice or experience. Once you start to have a handle of the deck's versatility you can clobber any opposition.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

That's exactly the right attitude. I feel like much of the drive to "innovate" the deck comes from a lack of practice or experience. Once you start to have a handle of the deck's versatility you can clobber any opposition.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

That's exactly why I haven't changed anything in the deck. I feel like that if Enevoldsen won GP Strasburg with it, it's probably one of the best versions.

I need to test more before I change anything in it.

[Mr. Froggy]

What are the worst match-ups for the deck? I have yet to play vs one on MTGO where I felt it was a good one. I always feel on the back-foot..

[Barbed Blightning]

What are the worst match-ups for the deck? I have yet to play vs one on MTGO where I felt it was a good one. I always feel on the back-foot..

Jund and Elves! should be the only decks that really give you a rough time. Belcher and its ilk are frustrating but uncommon.

Challenging, but not unfavorable, matchups include Miracles, TNN decks, the mirror and Shardless.

Easy matchups are plentiful: burn, sneak show, reanimator, RUG and BUG delver and ANT.

Which matchups do you struggle with? I'd like to give any guidance I can

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

Jund and Elves! should be the only decks that really give you a rough time. Belcher and its ilk are frustrating but uncommon.

Challenging, but not unfavorable, matchups include Miracles, TNN decks, the mirror and Shardless.

Easy matchups are plentiful: burn, sneak show, reanimator, RUG and BUG delver and ANT.

Which matchups do you struggle with? I'd like to give any guidance I can

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Pretty much all flavors of BUG, BURG, Jund. It's as if they always have an answer to what ever I do..

[Finn]

That should not be happening. You may want to read up or watch some videos. But then if your sample is small enough, it may just be bad luck so far.

[Mr. Froggy]

I'm still practicing with the deck; its really hard to know all its intricacies.

[AlbyLegacy]

MTG Legacy: Goblins VS Death & Taxes

Game 1
http://youtu.be/rwE7gsO7ekg

Game 2
http://youtu.be/N8Wuv8MAaFY

Game 3
http://youtu.be/MEi9RMpxTgY

I will be posting my videos.

youtube.com/albylegacy

[Mr. Froggy]

I actually beat Jund! :) 2nd game wasn't exactly fair for my opponent though, I let his Confidant kill himself, while I had him locked with Port+Thalia. I'll post a video of the games.

EDIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ4H7Juabs0

[Barbed Blightning]

You were definitely far too aggressive with mom that game. I understand that getting the damage through was important, but the loss of that sfm could have put you in a bind and you *know* they have spot removal. Jund plays no board wipes; you should have ran out all of those moms. Had he blocked Thalia, you still profit, though he probably wouldn't. Revoker on DRS was the right move.

The key to beating jund is the rapid filling of your board, forcing them to try to kill your dudes (had you run out those moms, he would have seriously been in trouble) instead of discarding them.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

You were definitely far too aggressive with mom that game. I understand that getting the damage through was important, but the loss of that sfm could have put you in a bind and you *know* they have spot removal. Jund plays no board wipes; you should have ran out all of those moms. Had he blocked Thalia, you still profit, though he probably wouldn't. Revoker on DRS was the right move.

The key to beating jund is the rapid filling of your board, forcing them to try to kill your dudes (had you run out those moms, he would have seriously been in trouble) instead of discarding them.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

That's what I was thinking if aggressively casting my guys was the right move. I was afraid of doing it, though.

[Barbed Blightning]

That's what I was thinking if aggressively casting my guys was the right move. I was afraid of doing it, though.

Jund is an admittedly nerve wracking matchup. However, when you see the ability to have up to 3 moms active, you go for it.

Unlike maverick or other decks where mom-unblockability is useful, Jund has enough removal to make the move a complete wash. I only use it to slay that bitch Liliana.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

Yeah, I see what you mean. Btw.. I hate Liliana....

[anakyn]

Jund plays no board wipes.

Actually, many (I'd say most) Jund lists play some number of Golgari charm in the board, and sometimes even Plagues or Explosives.
The Charm alone (which can be used on RIP too) is potentially gamebreaking.

Right now I'm playing 2 Charm 1 Explosives and for now they were kinda successful, but I need some more test.

[Barbed Blightning]

Actually, many (I'd say most) Jund lists play some number of Golgari charm in the board, and sometimes even Plagues or Explosives.
The Charm alone (which can be used on RIP too) is potentially gamebreaking.

Right now I'm playing 2 Charm 1 Explosives, and I'm having enough success vs D&T.

I was speaking in terms of their Main. It was obviously a game 1 since Mangara was in his (froggy's) hand.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Finn]

Alby, thanks for the link. Your opponent lost game three specifically because he made a critical mistake that I bet neither of you even knew. He did not call Aether Vial with Revoker. This is the kind of thing that most players have to be told to do because it is not obvious. Death and Taxes has to slow the game down as much as possible. It is almost always control. Especially with him way out ahead on board state, all he has to do is prevent your deck from doing its thing. If he is a friend of yours, you should tell him.

Also, I don't normally have a problem with this, but you said it so many times. Mother of Runes. There is no "I" in that word.

[anakyn]

I was speaking in terms of their Main. It was obviously a game 1 since Mangara was in his (froggy's) hand.


Oh well, I didn't realize you were referring just to the maindeck.

The curious thing is some recent Jund lists (I've seen one or two making top 16) play Golgari charm even maindeck.
I don't agree with this move and I've seen it rarely, but I guess it depends from the success of TNN and, well, D&T.


I'd like to add that in my opinion, Jund should not be considered a bad matchup for D&T. Considering my results, I'd call it pretty even and depends a lot on the draws, particularly on how many mana sources is Jund playing and drawing. If Jund gets its engine working it's difficult to stop, but it requires a lot of mana and it's not particularly hard for D&T to screw Jund out of the game. That's why I'm always happy when I see 3-4 lands hand, and I often keep it even if the lands are 5. If I see less than 3 mana sources counting lands and Shamans, I'm always inclined to mulligan vs D&T, and I would keep it only if they were basics of fetchlands.

It's true Jund has a lot of answers to D&T, particularly the Grove-Punishing sinergy, but D&T too as many "counter-answers": Wasteland for Grove, RIP for half Jund deck, Liege for Liliana, Hymn and Golgari charm (I'm so afraid of him that I board out all Hymns and I think very carefully before +1 Liliana), Revoker for Liliana and Shaman, StP for Confidant, and the list goes on...
...so I really wouldn't say it's an unfavorable matchup.

[Mr. Froggy]

I have seen Golgari Charm MD in some decks (ie: Nic Fit). I asked the guy why he ran it, and he told me its because of TNN running around all over.

[Barbed Blightning]

Oh well, I didn't realize you were referring just to the maindeck.

The curious thing is some recent Jund lists (I've seen one or two making top 16) play Golgari charm even maindeck.
I don't agree with this move and I've seen it rarely, but I guess it depends from the success of TNN and, well, D&T.


I'd like to add that in my opinion, Jund should not be considered a bad matchup for D&T. Considering my results, I'd call it pretty even and depends a lot on the draws, particularly on how many mana sources is Jund playing and drawing. If Jund gets its engine working it's difficult to stop, but it requires a lot of mana and it's not particularly hard for D&T to screw Jund out of the game. That's why I'm always happy when I see 3-4 lands hand, and I often keep it even if the lands are 5. If I see less than 3 mana sources counting lands and Shamans, I'm always inclined to mulligan vs D&T, and I would keep it only if they were basics of fetchlands.

It's true Jund has a lot of answers to D&T, particularly the Grove-Punishing sinergy, but D&T too as many "counter-answers": Wasteland for Grove, RIP for half Jund deck, Liege for Liliana, Hymn and Golgari charm (I'm so afraid of him that I board out all Hymns and I think very carefully before +1 Liliana), Revoker for Liliana and Shaman, StP for Confidant, and the list goes on...
...so I really wouldn't say it's an unfavorable matchup.

I actually agree with you. I'd add the caveat that while Jund is certainly difficult it is not "bad" in the way that say Elves or Belcher is. Jund's plethora of removal makes games difficult, but as you pointed out, we are not without tools of our own. Thus the matchup comes down to luck and skill (especially the skill of dealing with how lucky/unlucky you are). It's not that either deck necessarily roles over the other but in how they maneuver throughout the games

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

Eldrazi are so herp-derp.. -_- Damn TurboEldrazi..

[Barbed Blightning]

Eldrazi are so herp-derp.. -_- Damn TurboEldrazi..

I can't imagine that the matchup is that horrendous; we have Mangara, Revoker for Map/Top, Mindcensor post board as well as Cataclysm.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

I can't imagine that the matchup is that horrendous; we have Mangara, Revoker for Map/Top, Mindcensor post board as well as Cataclysm.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I did exactly that in game 3, but he ends up casting SnT some eldrazi.. -_- game 2 I'm controlling the whole game, he topdecks his eldrazi land, search Emrakul swing -_-

[Barbed Blightning]

So, boarding:
-4 StP
-4 Thalia
+2 cataclysm
+2 mindcensor
+2 e bridge
+1 needle
+1 o ring

Needle goes on Eye of Ugin

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Maagler]

I can't imagine that the matchup is that horrendous; we have Mangara, Revoker for Map/Top, Mindcensor post board as well as Cataclysm.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I have played this match extensively on both sides. Dnt should win almost every time if the player knows what they are doing.

On the other hand I have never lost a tournament match vs dnt with turbodrazi because most people dont know how to battle the deck.

The post deck's main gameplan against you is to show and tell in a Primeval Titian. If you have heavy board position at the time of the show and tell, they are likely to get glacial chasm, or glimmerposts to gain life and buy time.

You want to wasteland them and port them out of the game as quickly as possible with a threat. If they are short on colored sources it might be advantageous to port or waste those instead of a cloudpost. If they tap out of green mana you are free to waste, DO NOT WALK INTO CROP ROTATION UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY HAVE TO. If the cloupost player uses needle (many do main) flickerwisp becomes your best friend. You can remove cloudposts and have them come back into play tapped. You probably should revoker in this order: top, map, candelabra, but that is situationaly dependant.

Aven mindsensor is great against map and prime time in addition to fetches, keep that in mind when you are choosing what to put into play off of a show and tell.

The biggest thing to winning against this deck though is bringing in cataclysm or Armageddon from the side. Those cards pretty much wreck.

My 2¢

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

[Mr. Froggy]

I'll post the videos later, you guys can tell me my mistakes?

[Finn]

Yeah, Jund is the only bad matchup that is also grindy. As such, I have stolen quite a few. If I draw two or three STP, I usually win, for example. Or if I get Mangara recursion. Or my first Mystic goes flawlessly into Batterskull. Or I draw all my mana denial. Stuff like that.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'll post the videos later, you guys can tell me my mistakes?

And what you did right! :)

That's perhaps the most critical component of learning this deck in the early stages: understanding your shortcomings, yes, but also appreciating your victories, too. I became jaded because I failed to focus on the latter.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Maagler]

So, boarding:
-4 StP
-4 Thalia
+2 cataclysm
+2 mindcensor
+2 e bridge
+1 needle
+1 o ring

Needle goes on Eye of Ugin

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Im not sure if pulling thalia is correct. On the second turn he mucks things up pretty good.

Also ensnaring bridge is only good against a primeval titain so it might not be worth it since they will already get the two lands from it. They can also easily repeal bridge.




I'll post the videos later, you guys can tell me my mistakes?

Yes please.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Im not sure if pulling thalia is correct. On the second turn he mucks things up pretty good.

Also ensnaring bridge is only good against a primeval titain so it might not be worth it since they will already get the two lands from it. They can also easily repeal bridge.



I'd rather cut 1 SFM, the Jitte and 2 Revoker, depending on the absence/presence of Candelabra and keep Thalia.

[Maagler]

I'd rather cut 1 SFM, the Jitte and 2 Revoker, depending on the absence/presence of Candelabra and keep Thalia.

Yeah jitte isnt great in the match.

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[Mr. Froggy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaOSN1cKAQg

Alright, here is Game 1 of my match vs TurboEldrazi!

Feel free to critique!

[raikenxy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaOSN1cKAQg

Alright, here is Game 1 of my match vs TurboEldrazi!

Feel free to critique!

the most glaring thing i noticed was not using your wastelands after having a very stable board presence. You should be abusing vial a lot more, your mana base in thar game was perfect for disrupting him... not vialing mom in end of turn with vial on one was also pretty glaring. on turn three you had vial, plains, port established.... had you vialed in mom end of turn, ticked vial to two... you would have been able to play a thalia off the vial, use a waste land to burn his post, and ported him once again to put him on zero lands ... having zero lands on turn 3 is pretty crippling for any deck... you then could have followed up your tur four by vialing in a revoker on his top then wasting his second dropped land... which meant he would have been on zero lands turn four... with a broken top, and you with five power on board and an active vial... if i was him and that was the game state i would have scooped as he was essentially in the lock. im fairly certain all of this woud have happened before he cast the pithing needle which im assuming was on wasteland

[Mr. Froggy]

the most glaring thing i noticed was not using your wastelands after having a very stable board presence. You should be abusing vial a lot more, your mana base in thar game was perfect for disrupting him... not vialing mom in end of turn with vial on one was also pretty glaring. on turn three you had vial, plains, port established.... had you vialed in mom end of turn, ticked vial to two... you would have been able to play a thalia off the vial, use a waste land to burn his post, and ported him once again to put him on zero lands ... having zero lands on turn 3 is pretty crippling for any deck... you then could have followed up your tur four by vialing in a revoker on his top then wasting his second dropped land... which meant he would have been on zero lands turn four... with a broken top, and you with five power on board and an active vial... if i was him and that was the game state i would have scooped as he was essentially in the lock

Yeah, I know about the missed vialed in Mom I had clicked "yield to EoT" but forgot I did.. :s

[raikenxy]

Yeah, I know about the missed vialed in Mom I had clicked "yield to EoT" but forgot I did.. :s

as long as your aware then! if you hadn't missed the vial the game would have played out in very much the manner i described i think. but that's just theoretical

[Barbed Blightning]

as long as your aware then! if you hadn't missed the vial the game would have played out in very much the manner i described i think. but that's just theoretical

Your analysis looks completely correct to me; it's kind of funny how tiny things like that build up over the course of the game. But, such is Legacy

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Mr. Froggy]

I felt like I set myself back a whole turn when I did the mistake.... -_-

EDIT: Thanks for the help though. :)

[raikenxy]

I felt like I set myself back a whole turn when I did the mistake.... -_-

EDIT: Thanks for the help though. :)

lol, you actually did. but the fact you realize this is good... next time if your in that situation i would actuallyjust advise not playing the mother of runes... andinstead go about using your mana to disrupt his development. all your missing out on is a mom shield, but if the lines of play i outlined were done... he would have had no mana to to do anything to your thalia anyway. Next time if you miss the trigger just go about your business of mana denial and develop your board with the natural aether vial curve.

[Mr. Froggy]

lol, you actually did. but the fact you realize this is good... next time if your in that situation i would actuallyjust advise not playing the mother of runes... andinstead go about using your mana to disrupt his development. all your missing out on is a mom shield, but if the lines of play i outlined were done... he would have had no mana to to do anything to your thalia anyway. Next time if you miss the trigger just go about your business of mana denial and develop your board with the natural aether vial curve.

One thing I wasn't sure of was using Wastelands on Glimmerposts. Should I use them on those or keep them for Cloudposts?

[raikenxy]

One thing I wasn't sure of was using Wastelands on Glimmerposts. Should I use them on those or keep them for Cloudposts?

It's situational... But in that game you were presented the opportunity to have your opponent on zero lands for three turns in that scenario I think it would have been right to use them
P

[Mr. Froggy]

I got in a test game vs a friend of mine, who plays MonoBlack Discard. I'll upload it to show Thalia+Port combo after a mull to 5 game 3.

EDIT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQpavWquBVo

[mrjumbo03]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151220&d=1389934931

Pretty sweet. Giving it a butt of 4 is pure icing, as it can swing past TNN and live, as well as being bolt proof.

Might be worth looking at to replace Mirran Crusader (for those like me who haven't).

[raikenxy]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151220&d=1389934931

Pretty sweet. Giving it a butt of 4 is pure icing, as it can swing past TNN and live, as well as being bolt proof.

Might be worth looking at to replace Mirran Crusader (for those like me who haven't).


def a cool, and very powerful card. not sure it has a place in dnt tho. I will def test it out, but i feel like mirran crusader have pro green black and double strike is a relevant consideration. However the fact that you can effectively vial this in in response to attacks, block and get another dude and then attack with another dude on the return swing is kinda ridiculous. def worth testing, not sure how succesfull it will be tho. It's kinda like a mini hero of the bladehold

[Barbed Blightning]

:_______] that's.... good. Karakas synergy too? God damn.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[raikenxy]

:_______] that's.... good. Karakas synergy too? God damn.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

just saw this had vigilance .... that's hella dumb... so taking crusaders spot...

[klaus]

just saw this had vigilance .... that's hella dumb... so taking crusaders spot...

I actually doubt this Cat will find its way inside the 75.
I never ran Crusader during the past months, but believe comparing him makes sense, for those who do.
I'm not going to go in-depth with this comparison, since CatMan will never have the ability to close games as Mirran does. Mirran +Jitte/Sofi/Skull is way "dumber" than CatMan and his tiny minions could ever be.
CatMan might be better on the defense by being able to pump out more blockers though.

[mrjumbo03]

It's still early to say if he is better than Mirran. A huge thing to consider, though, is the fact that this guy survives bolt and 1 punishing fire and more importantly, Karakas-able (huge) - 3 things going for it that doesn't for Mirran. Outside of Abrupt Decay, I'd say he's way more durable than Mirran is. This makes him more likely to wear equipment. Also, while admittedly Mirran + equipment ends games immediately, I'd say you're still in a pretty good spot when you get this fella equipped.

Theoretically, I think he's better against both RUG and Jund, while weaker against BUG, compared to Mirran. Also, I'd say waaay better against Miracles because it gives you an army on its own so you don't have to overcommit, plus again, Karakas-able.

[Barbed Blightning]

It's still early to say if he is better than Mirran. A huge thing to consider, though, is the fact that this guy survives bolt and 1 punishing fire and more importantly, Karakas-able (huge) - 3 things going for it that doesn't for Mirran. Outside of Abrupt Decay, I'd say he's way more durable than Mirran is. This makes him more likely to wear equipment. Also, while admittedly Mirran + equipment ends games immediately, I'd say you're still in a pretty good spot when you get this fella equipped.

Theoretically, I think he's better against both RUG and Jund, while weaker against BUG, compared to Mirran. Also, I'd say waaay better against Miracles because it gives you an army on its own so you don't have to overcommit, plus again, Karakas-able.

He definitely warrants testing, especially as a 1-2 of.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[phazonmutant]

He does dodge all the sweepers that are good against white-girl-ass.deck.

And really, isn't pro-Bolt more relevant than holding an insane weapon really well? It's not that often I see D&T lose after connecting with an Equipment at all.

[danyul]

He does dodge all the sweepers that are good against white-girl-ass.deck.

And really, isn't pro-Bolt more relevant than holding an insane weapon really well? It's not that often I see D&T lose after connecting with an Equipment at all.

LOL whitegirlasssssss.dec I love it.

[Barbed Blightning]

LOL whitegirlasssssss.dec I love it.

We always called SecondWaveFeminism.dec or Tea Time with Thalia and Friends.

@phazon: equipment connection isn't too hard; D&T has many fliers. That said I think Mufasa is a definite boon.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[phazonmutant]

We always called SecondWaveFeminism.dec or Tea Time with Thalia and Friends.

@phazon: equipment connection isn't too hard; D&T has many fliers. That said I think Mufasa is a definite boon.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Lol, how cute.

So...I think we're in violent agreement ;)

[Mr. Froggy]

Here's a match I had vs UWR Delver, which happened today. Thought it was a good one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOORyYL_i-g

[raikenxy]

Here's a match I had vs UWR Delver, which happened today. Thought it was a good one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOORyYL_i-g

the only main thing i saw was the turn one wasteland. I would have instead played the vial turn one. I would only have gone turn one wasteland if he had played nothing on turn one or had just pondered or brainstormed. wasting him put you back a turn on vial, as he had a delver out anyway.

[from Cairo]

Agreed on the turn 1 Wasteland.

Opp's turn 6 instead of Wisping out Jitte, you could Wisp out the Insect Aberration it's attached to. Block the other one, taking no damage. You're still trading a Wisp for a Delver. He still has the reequip costs and additionally has to try to reflip Delver, revealing further information to you.

[Mr. Froggy]

I wasn't sure about the turn 1 Wasteland, either. I just thought I had to tax him as early as possible.

But I'll keep it in mind that I should (usually) go for Vial first.

Thanks for the help!

[mrjumbo03]

^Also, you're opponent lost that one when he played another delver instead of swinging with delver equipped with Jitte.

[raikenxy]

if you want to begin taxing the opponent, the best and most efficient start to do this is the following

turn one: land vial

turn two: port

turn three: vial in thalia

wasteland should be played after port i believe, as port has the ability to hit non basics and with a thalia acts as a double waste land

[Barook]

One of the flexspots in many sideboards is a single Sunlance. In what match-ups does it come in?

And where exactly are the Ratchet Bombs used?

[GoblinZ]

One of the flexspots in many sideboards is a single Sunlance. In what match-ups does it come in?

And where exactly are the Ratchet Bombs used?

ratchet bomb is said to deal with elves and maybe delver or some random emptying the warren( I don't like it personally).

As for sunlance, we only run 4 STP main deck, so I think more removal in the sb is good.

[Barook]

As for sunlance, we only run 4 STP main deck, so I think more removal in the sb is good.
Couldn't that be a single E-Tutor to increase the consistency of grabbing stuff like RiP, Relic, O-Ring, Needle, Bomb, Canonist and Revoker (maybe equipment if you're in a pinch)?

[Mr. Froggy]

I run 1 Sunlance SB, and 2 E Tutor. Haven't had any consistency issues yet in drawing my "4" Ratchet Bombs.

Also, I was thinking about this; should I have boarded in Cataclysm instead?

[GoblinZ]

Couldn't that be a single E-Tutor to increase the consistency of grabbing stuff like RiP, Relic, O-Ring, Needle, Bomb, Canonist and Revoker (maybe equipment if you're in a pinch)?

I play one single E-tutor. Because most players tend to copy the Danish list.

[Mr. Froggy]

I changed my deck up a bit, the list is as follows:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy

I went:

-1 Mangara
-2 Mirran Crusader
-1 Fiend Hunter

+3 Serra Avenger
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I moved a Crusader to the SB also, in case I run into BG.

Thoughts?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erUXrrcPspI

Another video of me playing

[Jungian Thing]

I changed my deck up a bit, the list is as follows:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy

I went:

-1 Mangara
-2 Mirran Crusader
-1 Fiend Hunter

+3 Serra Avenger
+1 Sword of Fire and Ice

I moved a Crusader to the SB also, in case I run into BG.

Thoughts?


Looks like your deck has only 59 cards in it.

[Mr. Froggy]

Looks like your deck has only 59 cards in it.

I'll check but I think I copied from my mtgo list.

[Barook]

I assume the missing card ist Eiganjo Castle, considering he only runs 9 Plains. I run exactly the same list right now.

Just lost to LED Dredge in R3 of the Legacy Daily. He had the nuts in G1 and G3, although I could have won G3 if I had drawn GY hate (he dumped 42 cards into his GY T1, but didn't hit a single Moeba - lol). Only three pieces of GY hate seems a bit low for my taste. I'm switching Sunlance or an E-Tutor. I don't feel comfortable with those low numbers in the sideboard, considering D&T doesn't run cantrips to find its silverbullets.

Edit: Daily Result: 3-1

R1: UWR Delver (2-1)
Won via timeout, but I was in a winning position in G3 anyway. The loss came from TNN Batterskull shenanigans.

R2: Tezzeret Stacks (2-1) against Joe Lossett
G1 was a long, good game, but in the end, I was overwhelmed by too many Thopthers to handle. G2 was an aggressive Cavern into Mom, Thalia, Crusader while Wastelanding him. G3 he was manascrewed while it ended with 3x Serra Avenger beatdown.

R3: LED Dredge (1-2)
See above

R4: BUG Delver (2-0)
He got stomped pretty badly.

Feels good to be back playing after a longer break.

[Finn]

Guys, stop siding out Mangara. He stays in against all the Mystic decks and anything else that is at leas as slow as this deck.

[Mr. Froggy]

Yeah, its Castle.. excuse my noobness..

[Barbed Blightning]

So I have formulated a "Jund Slayer" build using the new Brimaz card. And holy fucking cannoli is it good. Mufasa just wrecks on an open board, negating Lilly and generally fucking Jund up. Here's the creature lineup:

4 Mom, Thalia, Revoker and SFM (more or less the core)
3 Avenger
3 Brimaz
2 Crusader
2 Flickerwisp

Then 3 Liege in the board to just crush the opponent

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Barook]

So I have formulated a "Jund Slayer" build using the new Brimaz card. And holy fucking cannoli is it good. Mufasa just wrecks on an open board, negating Lilly and generally fucking Jund up. Here's the creature lineup:

4 Mom, Thalia, Revoker and SFM (more or less the core)
3 Avenger
3 Brimaz
2 Crusader
2 Flickerwisp

Then 3 Liege in the board to just crush the opponent
Is that just theorycrafting or did you already test it with proxies? Liege + Mufasa sounds hilarious, though.

I'm not really a fan of going down to 2 Flickerwisps since they're evasive beaters and have tons of utility.

I think your other configuration is a bit more balanced:

4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Mom
4 SFM
3 Serra
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz
2 any mixture of Mangara/Mirran Crusader (metacall)

Aven Mindcensor seems like it would be the most likely candidate to make room for Mufasa testing. I was never to fond of it anyway.

[berry]

Is that just theorycrafting or did you already test it with proxies? Liege + Mufasa sounds hilarious, though.

I'm not really a fan of going down to 2 Flickerwisps since they're evasive beaters and have tons of utility.

I think your other configuration is a bit more balanced:

4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Mom
4 SFM
3 Serra
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz
2 any mixture of Mangara/Mirran Crusader (metacall)

Aven Mindcensor seems like it would be the most likely candidate to make room for Mufasa testing. I was never to fond of it anyway.

I will prob use this same base, but keep the Mindcensors in the board for a while and see.

EDIT: Didn't notice the Mirrans. Not a fan. Maybe a metacall but when I already have Brimaz I would like my Mangaras left in the main.

[Barbed Blightning]

Is that just theorycrafting or did you already test it with proxies? Liege + Mufasa sounds hilarious, though.

I'm not really a fan of going down to 2 Flickerwisps since they're evasive beaters and have tons of utility.

I think your other configuration is a bit more balanced:

4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Mom
4 SFM
3 Serra
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz
2 any mixture of Mangara/Mirran Crusader (metacall)

Aven Mindcensor seems like it would be the most likely candidate to make room for Mufasa testing. I was never to fond of it anyway.

While the balanced build I described is good, after some initial testing I have found that the Jund Slayer build is very, very brutal. I would definitely play it if your meta has a lot of BGx.

The logic behind 2 wisp is that, in this build, it's a card you would like to draw into but not necessarily every game. Wisp, simply put, has the worst mana-body ratio against Jund: literally, everything they play for removal kills it.

Mufasa, OTOH, is a trump in that matchup, a power house capable of taking over games.

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Ziveeman]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/bng/KDJ)D(jk2m2389/HTddbUnyqb_EN.jpg

This card certainly meets the criteria to fix in Death & Taxes...do you guys think it warrants a slot? If so, what do you cut?

[KobeBryan]

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/bng/KDJ)D(jk2m2389/HTddbUnyqb_EN.jpg

This card certainly meets the criteria to fix in Death & Taxes...do you guys think it warrants a slot? If so, what do you cut?

see you later mirran crusader.

[raikenxy]

I think this one falls into the category of being cool but not actually beneficial to the overall game plan. Our two drop slots are maxed as is and I would almost always rather drop a thalia, revoker, stoneforge and avenger in before this card. If anything i think this is a hell of a sideboard card against omnitell and has secondary applications against storm decks. however as a beater i would still prefer crusader/brimaz as this has neither protection/evasion and is essentially a walking blockable flickerwisp. You'll almost never want to attack with it

[trollking21]

I think this one falls into the category of being cool but not actually beneficial to the overall game plan. Our two drop slots are maxed as is and I would almost always rather drop a thalia, revoker, stoneforge and avenger in before this card. If anything i think this is a hell of a sideboard card against omnitell and has secondary applications against storm decks. however as a beater i would still prefer crusader/brimaz as this has neither protection/evasion and is essentially a walking blockable flickerwisp. You'll almost never want to attack with it

It seems very very good against anything running cantrips. It shuts off brainstorm and ponder, jacestorm, enter the infinite, visions and against decks that run none of those 3/1 base stats are not terrible. Does it warrant a slot? maybe, its all a game of how many if at all.

[Elias]

I think this one falls into the category of being cool but not actually beneficial to the overall game plan. Our two drop slots are maxed as is and I would almost always rather drop a thalia, revoker, stoneforge and avenger in before this card. If anything i think this is a hell of a sideboard card against omnitell and has secondary applications against storm decks. however as a beater i would still prefer crusader/brimaz as this has neither protection/evasion and is essentially a walking blockable flickerwisp. You'll almost never want to attack with it

I agree, but I am still stoked about throwing her into my Enlightened Tutor sideboard Package.

[Phoenix13]

Spirit of the Labyrinth seems like a one, maybe two-of in the side with the Enlightened Tutor package. Not too sure if it's main deck-able.

[MrShine]

If your meta is heavily saturated with U, be it Delver, Midrange (Blade), Miracles or combo (ANT, Tin Fins, Reanimator), this guy could be worth maindecking. Until then he is DEFINITELY jumping into the E Tutor SB plan.

So Sweet. For once, Wizards does it right.

[raikenxy]

It seems very very good against anything running cantrips. It shuts off brainstorm and ponder, jacestorm, enter the infinite, visions and against decks that run none of those 3/1 base stats are not terrible. Does it warrant a slot? maybe, its all a game of how many if at all.

the thing is our deck is already good at fighting decks running can trips. thalia makes cantrips inefficient. brainstorming/pondering for 2 mana is never something any deck wants to do. Theoretically we shut cantrips down anyway is all im saying. But as a side board card, this card does have a lot of merit. Omnitell effectively cannot win with this on the field.

[Barbed Blightning]

the thing is our deck is already good at fighting decks running can trips. thalia makes cantrips inefficient. brainstorming/pondering for 2 mana is never something any deck wants to do. Theoretically we shut cantrips down anyway is all im saying. But as a side board card, this card does have a lot of merit. Omnitell effectively cannot win with this on the field.

Elves! This kills the Elves quite smartly my lad!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[raikenxy]

Elves! This kills the Elves quite smartly my lad!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

wow... completely didn't even recognize it's good against elves...

[Dzra]

Pretty sure this card is not just good, but very good. Even if Thalia is usually better, having access to more than 4 cantrip-hosers seems great, especially since this deck has zero library manipulation. You can't always just draw a Thalia.

[trollking21]

wow... completely didn't even recognize it's good against elves...

Shutting down visionary symbiote engine and glimpse leaves them basically NO or bust. Especially since they can't remove it game 1 and almost can't remove it game 2 (typically 2-3 abrupt at most) this leaves them to strip it from your hand.

[Barook]

Elves! This kills the Elves quite smartly my lad!

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
It can also stop Griselbrand from going nuts.

The MD is probably too tight to fit it in, but it certainly deserves a place in the 75. It's just too good against the dominant card of the format. Vialing it in with Brainstorm/Jacestorm on the stack is a major blowout since it can generate up to 2/3 cards of pure CA.

[Barsoom]

Omnitell effectively cannot win with this on the field.

This is not true, the main plane of OmniTell against Thalia decks and Hatebears in general is Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; i Show and Tell, you drop this spirit, i drop Omniscience --> Cunning Wish --> Eladamri's Call --> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn; as a OmniTell player i had already in sideboard 2x of Pongify/Rapid Hybridization; i'll think about a 3x with this guy out, cause it is annoying indeed, it stops cantrips better than Thalia.

[Megadeus]

It can also stop Griselbrand from going nuts.

The MD is probably too tight to fit it in, but it certainly deserves a place in the 75. It's just too good against the dominant card of the format. Vialing it in with Brainstorm/Jacestorm on the stack is a major blowout since it can generate up to 2/3 cards of pure CA.

Especially since they still will have to put the cards back on top. Ouch. This card seems good.

[Asthereal]

Especially since they still will have to put the cards back on top. Ouch. This card seems good.
Yep, especially to vial this in, in response to a Brainstorm. :eek:
That's like Notion Thief, but one you can easily cast if you want to.