[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Dihensoeur]

In Death and Taxes, a 3 drop is a big investment, so they better have a big impact on the board when they come down. Other notable 3 drops in D&T include Mangara of Corondor, Flickerwisp, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, Mirran Crusader. If you notice there are really 2 categories of 3 drops here. One that helps with the lock by being versatile removal spells that may also lock up mana, while the other helps with swaying the board completely in terms of aggro board positions. If you choose to use the cards you mentioned above, which one would you see yourself cutting? Does it make a big enough impact on the game? These are the questions you should ask yourself.

With the 2 drop, Archetype of Courage, you may have to consider what our 2 drops do. Given that this deck is supposed to lock up mana, this would help with the strategy a bit. Would this recreate a dilemma for the opponent to cast spells vs kill your knight? A control deck or combo deck would be less affected by your 2/2 than the flying Serra Avenger. Your clock would be slower. The aggro decks would just drop the bigger creature to not take the hit and then pay for your 2/2 later on. Giving the opponent this choice is never a good idea in MTG. Serrra Avenger is better in both situations I'd say unless your opponent is a poor player.

Ok, thanks! So, you think that Death&Taxes list is actually totally optimized (Creatures side) ?

[jin]

Ok, thanks! So, you think that Death&Taxes list is actually totally optimized (Creatures side) ?

Well, it's not a tier one deck, so I think there is always room for improvements. I'm not saying I'm an expert in the deck either. I'm just trying to get you to weigh in the advantages and disadvantages of your card choices and make your own decisions.

I personally think Serra Avenger isn't that great of a card, but people that have been topping 16 recently at SCG have all been running it in their D&T decks. What I'm trying to say is, keep up the mentality for looking for better cards, but make sure you know why you are replacing certain cards for others.

[Dihensoeur]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/godsend.jpg + http://www.mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/brimazkingoforeskos.jpg


=

A future ?

[LeoCop 90]

Godsend might be in competition with the protection swords , because it basically gives "protection from creatures". It shouldn't target , so a nemesis blocking a creature equipped with godsend should die. Obviously the swords have much more powerful effects.

[Barbed Blightning]

Godsend might be in competition with the protection swords , because it basically gives "protection from creatures". It shouldn't target , so a nemesis blocking a creature equipped with godsend should die. Obviously the swords have much more powerful effects.

It's a SB card... but a reasonable one. My fear is that they just chump with their SFM or Delver (or just take it) while TNN + Jitte run roughshod

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/godsend.jpg + http://www.mythicspoiler.com/bng/cards/brimazkingoforeskos.jpg


=

A future ?
While that is pretty fancy, I would rather have Crusader + SoFaI to crush them within two turns.

[Richard Cheese]

While that is pretty fancy, I would rather have Crusader + SoFaI to crush them within two turns.

This, all day.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, i think the only upside is that, while the effect of godsend is less powerful then sword of fire and ice, it is a bit more broader. It's simply better against every non red non blue creature. In the current metagame though you want to run sword of fire and ice of course.

[jin]

Well, i think the only upside is that, while the effect of godsend is less powerful then sword of fire and ice, it is a bit more broader. It's simply better against every non red non blue creature. In the current metagame though you want to run sword of fire and ice of course.

Blue decks make up more than half of the metagame.

Godsend is much worse than having protection from creatures. Creatures with abilities can still affect the equipped creature can still target the equipped creature. It is just protection from combat damage, which isn't much for the cost of casting/equipping. The versatility is not so great as it doesn't really add value to the deck's core strategy.

Equipping to critters with flying or first strike is also redundant in this deck (Flickerwisp/Serra Avenger/Mirran Crusader/Thalia/etc.)

[shardless]

I'm new at this deck, with horrible result :) I yet don't know play it very well yet, and have some questions about the deck for the more experiment players.

My list is this (like tons of decklist on the net):

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp

3 Spirit of the Labirynth
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
_________________

2 Oblivion Ring
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wild Seaf Liege
1 Sunlance
1 Celestial Flare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Meekstone

My questions are:

The best (and the only one) turn 1 drops, are Aether Vial > Mother of runes, that's easy, but, who is the best turn 2?? Thalia or Stoneforge? I think the correct order should be:

Phyrexin Revoker (if wee need to neutralice a Deathrite, Sensei, Noble Hierarch??) > Thalia (the most common case, or is better wait to have a Karakas online??) > Stoneforge Mystic (if we have mother online in turn 2, best than Thalia?) > Spirit of the Labyrinth (I don't know yet if this creature is good here).

Sorry for my english! :laugh:

[Darklingske]

The best 2-drop depends on the situation and MU you are facing. If you're heads on with Storm, then Thalia is your 2-drop. If it's Sneak and Show, then it is Revoker, etc... This deck is easy to play, but extremely hard to play excellent. Just play it a lot and you will get better with it.

[DavidHernandez]

I'm new at this deck, with horrible result :) I yet don't know play it very well yet, and have some questions about the deck for the more experiment players.

My list is this (like tons of decklist on the net):

2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Flickerwisp

3 Spirit of the Labirynth
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains
_________________

2 Oblivion Ring
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Wild Seaf Liege
1 Sunlance
1 Celestial Flare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Meekstone

My questions are:

The best (and the only one) turn 1 drops, are Aether Vial > Mother of runes, that's easy, but, who is the best turn 2?? Thalia or Stoneforge? I think the correct order should be:

Phyrexin Revoker (if wee need to neutralice a Deathrite, Sensei, Noble Hierarch??) > Thalia (the most common case, or is better wait to have a Karakas online??) > Stoneforge Mystic (if we have mother online in turn 2, best than Thalia?) > Spirit of the Labyrinth (I don't know yet if this creature is good here).

Sorry for my english! :laugh:

I lean towards "when in doubt, drop Thalia on the table first." It's a Thalia based deck and she's there for a reason. You can tempo out many decks with her on the table, then follow up with Stoneforge.

Dave

[jin]

Thalia all day.

The only time Thalia is bad is against a green beat down deck like Mavericks or Vial Goblins. I think the Spirit is alright. She's mainly an anti-blue card, but I think Thalia is better.

[shardless]

Thanks to everybody for the answers!

[Koke_MTG]

I think if you start the game and do not know what deck is playing your opponent, play Thalia at turn 2 but if your opponent play on his turn 1 an agressive creature putting a high clock, play Stoneforge, because your opponent need a removal next turn or generally germ will touch the battlefield and it is hard to fight with it.

On the other hand, if you know what is playing your opponent and it is a combo, control or aggro-control deck, play Thalia, if it's aggro, allways Stoneforge.

You have to decide for mana denial way or more aggresive way, but I think that we play Thalia in a higher percentage. Also y think it is very important if we have in hand or play Karakas or Ports to decide how to play.

Against Sneak & Show I prefer for turn 2 a Thalia if i have her in hand, and not a Revoker. Generally at turn 2 this combo deck is playing cantrips so I prefer Thalia for that reason. Revoker for turn 3 or when opponent play Show and Tell to flip and name Sneak Attack or Griselbrand. Sometimes i name Lotus Petal too while I play it at turn 2/3.

Finally, I think Spirit of the Labyrinth is for some specific situations and it can win the game in a specific moment but for this reason I prefer reserve the spirit and not to play it at turn 2. It's not better than a Thalia or Stoneforge in any situation for turn 2 too I think.

This is my first post at The Source. Sorry for my poor english :laugh:

[Oreia]

Hey guys, after i took i little break from the archetype i decided to play it again and i'm find the BUG(control and delver) MU a hell to beat, do you have any tips for the list(i know what to do during the game, but if i have better cards for the matchup i might win a little easier)

here is my list
// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [CHK] Eiganjo Castle
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
2 [MBS] Mirran Crusader

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [A] Meekstone
SB: 2 [EX] Cataclysm(i hate cataclysms, but i don't want to play celestial flares again)

[Barook]

@Oreia: I can't say much about BUG Control, but I don't see anything wrong with that list when battling BUG Delver. Unless they have an unchecked Liliana do her thing for a while, a nut draw or a bad draw on your side, you should be doing very well here.

Where are your exact problems in these match-ups?

[Oreia]

@Oreia: I can't say much about BUG Control, but I don't see anything wrong with that list when battling BUG Delver. Unless they have an unchecked Liliana do her thing for a while, a nut draw or a bad draw on your side, you should be doing very well here.

Where are your exact problems in these match-ups?

My problem is that BUG is the dominant deck in my meta(around 30~35%), even when my opponent doesn't really know how to play around my deck, they can still win because DRS, Tarmogoyf, force of will liliana ans Discards in the shame shell are too much for a single deck to handle(when they curve out, obv), and i just wanna know if there is some kind of free win against them(i know mirran is kinda free win, but it's not against bug control which hass quad TNN),I mean, my win percentage against BUG is really high, i just don't wanna play thins attrition match every round.

[Red Zone]

Mirran Crusader is a BEAST against BUG decks. If your meta is BUG heavy consider main decking four of him. If you don't feel like that much hate is necessary then go two main, two board.

[jin]

Mirran Crusader is a BEAST against BUG decks. If your meta is BUG heavy consider main decking four of him. If you don't feel like that much hate is necessary then go two main, two board.

I would go 3 in the main anyway. Mirran Crusader with Double Strike is just a beast. I don't think I'd go with 4 though. You'd just get flooded. A 3 drop is like a turn 5 at best because of Rishadan Port.

I'd also go with Wilt-leaf Liege. Although we've already discussed this topic just three pages ago..

[bruizar]

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/56/172/635327690460831648.jpeg

I love how the worst fear is ripping a worst fears from the pack instead of another mythic ..

[Finn]

The trick to beating BUG consistently is to keep an eye on the prevalence of True Name Nemesis. Globally right now, UWR True Blade Delver decks are on a low. Personally, I think that deck's pathetic manabase has caught up with it. And in general, True Name Nemesis is not as common as it was two months ago. This frees up some spots for you. This is doubly true given your indication that BUG is big. Forget the Serra Avengers. Go with Mirran Crusaders and maybe Mangara. But Mirran Crusader really is best. And no Avengers. Wilt Leaf Liege from the board rounds out your very strong modifications. Naturally, if you are a beginner with the deck, there are plenty of ways to screw things up anyway. But at least now you will have a strong version to screw up with.

[Oreia]

The trick to beating BUG consistently is to keep an eye on the prevalence of True Name Nemesis. Globally right now, UWR True Blade Delver decks are on a low. Personally, I think that deck's pathetic manabase has caught up with it. And in general, True Name Nemesis is not as common as it was two months ago. This frees up some spots for you. This is doubly true given your indication that BUG is big. Forget the Serra Avengers. Go with Mirran Crusaders and maybe Mangara. But Mirran Crusader really is best. And no Avengers. Wilt Leaf Liege from the board rounds out your very strong modifications. Naturally, if you are a beginner with the deck, there are plenty of ways to screw things up anyway. But at least now you will have a strong version to screw up with.

I'm not stranger with DnT, i almost got top 16 in last year's national(we have a Legacy National here in Brazil), but i was hating to face that many bugs through the course of the champ, it seems that now i've found a solution, thanks everyone!I'll probably play the deck again tomorrow and see what happens(maybe removing the avengers and playing Mirran AND Brimaz)

Edit: Removed the Avengers and added the third mirran and 2 Runed Halos in the maindeck.

Edit2: Tested several times against bug, blue and taxes, dredge and UW stoneblade, i think that the Serra avengers desearve their spot on the list and playing a BW sword on the sideboard is better than cataclysm(works against miracles but also works against Jund, UWR, UW, Mirror and ETC)

[raikenxy]

Won my local gaming store tournament this week. Small turnout only played four games but it was my first day back with the deck and wanted to write it all down!

my list

4 port
4 waste
3 karakas
12 plains

4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 batterskull
1 jitte
1 sword of fire and ice

4 mom
4 thalia
4 revoker
4 stoneforge mystic
3 flickerwisp
3 serra avenger
2 brimaz
2 aven mindcensor


Round 1 versus Scapeshift

This match up just feels all forms of horrible in every way shape and form. Our mana denial is almost useless the majority of the team. Every creature they play gets them land and pernicious deed is a beating if you over extend into it or aren't able to land a revoker on it. Game one I lost hard, I was able to swords to plowshares two veteran explorers and beat the guy down to 5 before he was able to scapeshift me for lethal. Game two i kept a bad hand of 6 lands cataclysm (not sure if i bring it in in this match up) cataclysm got thought seized, and then i proceeded to top deck nothing for two turns before i luck sacked both aven mindsensors off the top and started beating for 4. That game lasted forever and we went to turns in game three... neither of us could win in 5 turns so we would end up drawing.

Round 2 versus ANT

Played against ANT, first game I mulled to four trying to find a thalia as I knew what my opponent was played. I kept a hand with aether vial, plains, port, waste. So i play my vial, he ponders. I tick my vial up to one and draw a flickerwisp - _ -... waste his opening land then pass. His turn he plays a city of brass and ponders again. My turn i tick vial up to two and and put the port down. I procede to continualy ping him with his own land as i draw nothing but lands for another three turns. he continues to sculpt his hand with cantrips, and eventually casts a lim duls vault to set up a kill the next turn. I draw nothing but a land, notice he's at like 8 life and just hope he ends up killing himself. On his turn i port him putting him to 7 and then flickerwisp one of his lands... he proceeds to try to go off then realizes he is going to be one mana short because of the flickerwisp... he scoops !!!

Game two my opening hand has two ethersworn canonists, a thalia a lot of wastelands. he's never in the game.

Round 3 versus Merfolk

Game 1: Aether vial in stoneforge and beat down with a batterskull.

Game two: Same as game 1, only difference being I had a mother of runes to protect batterskull from dismember.

Round 4 versus Deathblade

Game 1: I keep a hand with aether vial and six lands.... two wastes two plains and two ports lol. The hand never developed as i drew 5 lands as my next draws. I eventually scooped as he got a deathrite shaman online to circumvent the mana denial.

Game 2: I crush him with thalia and mana denial capped off with avenger beatdown.

Game 3: I fallbehind very early on to cataclysm him not once but twice in the game for the win!

deck felt great all night. legit only complaint is wanting to make the scapeshift match up better but alas i feel this may just be an inherent weakness in our decks gameplan.

[Finn]

I don't consider weakness to Scapehift an issue.

[Mr. Froggy]

I finished 3rd with D&T at the LGS today, we were only 5 though... -_-

Round 1: -BYE-
Round 2: Jund Depths 1-2
Rouns 3: Burn 2-0

Much fun was to be had...

[Dihensoeur]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/athreosgodofpassage.jpg

Hello,
what are your opinions about this ?

It looks like very good!

[Hencules]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/athreosgodofpassage.jpg

Hello,
what are your opinions about this ?

It looks like very good!

Doesn't seem worth the black splash. If you really care about the black splash, there are far superior cards (like Bob, Therapy and Zealous Persecution). Still, no black needed IMO. If I were to include black, I'd get those three cards rather than Athreos.

[Barbed Blightning]

Doesn't seem worth the black splash. If you really care about the black splash, there are far superior cards (like Bob, Therapy and Zealous Persecution). Still, no black needed IMO. If I were to include black, I'd get those three cards rather than Athreos.

+1

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[jin]

http://mythicspoiler.com/nyx/cards/athreosgodofpassage.jpg

Hello,
what are your opinions about this ?

It looks like very good!

Might be cool in Deadguy's Ale, but doesn't really fit in Death and Taxes. It will require too much from our mana base and doesn't disrupt the opponent enough.

[Naemen]

When do you bring in Cataclysm? From what I have been able to read in this thread, it is mainly there vs miracles. Why not just play Armageddon instead then?
I am new to the deck, so I suppose I am missing something.

[from Cairo]

When do you bring in Cataclysm? From what I have been able to read in this thread, it is mainly there vs miracles. Why not just play Armageddon instead then?
I am new to the deck, so I suppose I am missing something.

It's also good against Turbo Eldrazi, Lands, and other ramp strategies like Nic Fit. Cataclysm incidentally nugs all Planeswalkers and can occasionally force an opponent to sacrifice an Artifact (Pithing Needle/Candelabra) or Enchantment (Exploration/Mana Bond; Humility/Counterbalance) that otherwise was locking a key part of our disruption.

It is pretty narrow in the decks that it attacks, but they are tough match ups.

[dsck]

Is there a separate thread for the UW version that has been putting up results lately?

[Barbed Blightning]

What results? I ain't seen jack nor shit of this Death and TNNxes

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[dsck]

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13416&iddeck=98532
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=13249&iddeck=97250
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12711&iddeck=93280

[Barbed Blightning]

These lists are too far mutated to be considered D&T any more. There may be a thread in N&D, but I doubt here is the place to discuss this

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Technicolor Mage]

Those lists may be someone's view of playing blue in for this deck but they are NOT D&T by a long shot. Really just looks like a u/w mid range deck but missing most of the good blue cards that make blue what it is in Legacy

Seems to me, there are better lists to play if you want TNN/SFM package.

They also have no bearing in this thread. It's pretty much a solid consensus that D&T is a mono white deck and if you want to splash black, Dead Guy Ale is your best bet.

[Barbed Blightning]

Agreed. In fact, if you want other colors, just play the decks they are commonly associated with. U splash? Play a blade variant. B? Deadguy or Junk. G? Maverick. R? Presumably for blood moon and bolt; just play painter

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[jin]

When do you bring in Cataclysm? From what I have been able to read in this thread, it is mainly there vs miracles. Why not just play Armageddon instead then?
I am new to the deck, so I suppose I am missing something.

Armageddon works against control but is not as versatile as it doesn't remove other permanents. Cataclysm can even the battlefield (pun not in tended) by taking out multiple Angel tokens, a slew of Enchantments or Artifacts... and planeswalkers as stated above.

Control doesn't only win with Morphling anymore, so it's important to have the versatility of Cataclysm versus control decks. It's also good versus Lands to some extent, but don't forget your Rest in Peaces.

[Zerog]

It's been a while i was on source, but i figured i'd come back with some reports on playing death & Taxes.

I'm not going to write an article, just matchups, what i thought etc.

This weekend i picked up DnT after a long pause and decided to play it in a 60 man tournament in sweden! I've been hating the deck for a long time now but seeing my friend borrowing it and doing well i wanted to give it a second chance.

Match 1, 2-0 against UW
He was playing some kind of UW control deck without the miracles, best matchup possible i guess.

Match 2, 2-1 against Sneak & show
Another good matchup, karakas and revoker stomped him g1, g2 i conceded to early when i had a karakas on top and g3 i went with manadenial

Match 3, 2-1 against tin fins.
G1 he gives the game away by drawing to many cards with griselbrand. He can't go off and i untap, equip my SoFi and kills him. G2 i get stomped and g3 i have turn 1 Cage into manadenial preventing him from playing serenity. Guess i was a bit lucky here.

Match 4, 2-1 against DnT.
He wins g1 after a nice 2nd plow after i suicide flickered his jitte into a second flickerwisp with a jitte of my own. He plays sloppy, tapping land incorrect. Almost cost him the game.
g2 i go first and tempo him out i guess, don't really remember(i did mull to 5 and he 6 though). Before G3 we decided that if we were going to time, the player who would most likely win would get a concession from the other player. In the end i had a hand full of gas and he had 3 lands, so i got the game.

Match 5, 1-2 against BUG delver.
In game 1 I manage to win off a mull to 5 with him keeping his 7. I'm feeling pretty good but in g2 he hymns my SoFi and beats me down with a TNN. Game 3 is a stalemate but he draws goyfs while i draw plains. A bit dissapointing.

Unfortunately there were no top 8 just the swiss(what a joke). Got a lousy 6 packs for my 12$ entry. I also played a local 4-round tournament two days ago trying to maintain my good run with the deck. Just 11 players this time with 4 rounds.

Match 1, 2-0 against Patriot
In game 1 I get to blow him out with a mindcensor on his "Double fetch"(which is stupid and i told him he could fetch one at a time but he insisted not to since it was his own fault). In game 2 i just curved out and won.

Match 2, 1-0 against Miracles
I hate this matchup. It didn't help going to five OnP either. He played double Force of will on my two thalias t2 and 3. He stopped on 2nd land and i began playing bad 3/3 flyers. Eventually he died, which was a suprise to me. In game 2 we played a long grindy game. I resolved a cataclysm and all sorts of things happend. Eventually time kicked in he wasn't able to kill me in time(he wasn't even close). I'm pretty sure he would have won if we had more time though.

Match 3, 2-0 against Infect(UG)
In the first game he goes to five but starts out strong. Elf t1 and Forcing my Plow on it. Then i get out my thalia and starts porting. He shows a berserk as the last card on his five saying he had a really good 5 with a lot of potential. In game 2 i get a vial start with Plow, thalia, avenger and flickerwisp on hand(pretty good hand basically). He doesn't kill me on turn 2 and a fewe vial activations later i win.

Match 4, 1-0 against BUG control
Another 1-0, yay.. The first game is insane. I go to 5 and he takes something with discard. I get a vial going but not much else, he doesn't do much either. Eventually i start comitting to the board but then he has a pernicious deed. Well well, he gets a 5 for 1 and i'm back at square 1. Luckily i manage to draw some stoneforges and swords to plowshares just when i need them, dealing with his threats. Eventually a thalia with a SoFi and a batterskull takes him down. He feels pretty confident he gave the game away at some time, which he probably did. But i don't remember much. In game 2 nothing much happens. He has a lot of removal and eventually gets out a wurmcoil engine, but the bell rings and he doesn't have time to kill me.. Lucky me!

I walked home with 8 packs(2 more that i got in the 60 man tournament!) and felt pretty happy with the deck. I think as long as you don't play against a lot of UW miracle you should have a good chance of doing well. As long as you play tight. There's no room for mistakes with this deck.
I feel a bit rejuvenated coming back to the deck and i might even play it in the upcoming BoM. I don't think True-name is an issue, and storm decks are really only an issue if they play the TES build(or something faster). ANT feels like a good matchup.

Well, i've written more than i wanted to already. Sorry for my bad English and such. I'll write the decklist i played below.

Main:
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of runes
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
12 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Pithing Needle
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege

[nevilshute]

@: Zerog

First off, grats on going so well with the deck! And also, don't apologize about your English which is very good.

I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that you don't think TNN is an issue. I've found it to be a huge issue. Especially in more controlling Stoneforge builds like Esper/Deathblade (there are also a couple of UW Control Blade decks in my meta). Those games tend to go very long and they have enough land (and basics) to render our mana denial plan sub-optimal eventually. Within that sort of context, their 3-4 TNNs provides a quite grim inevitability imo, especially in game 1.

Maybe in more tempo oriented shells like UWR delverTNN, the TNNs are less of an issue because our mana plan can hurt them a lot more.

Then again, I'm fairly inexperienced with the deck, being a combo player at heart, so it might just be that shining through :smile:

[Zerog]

@: Zerog

First off, grats on going so well with the deck! And also, don't apologize about your English which is very good.

I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that you don't think TNN is an issue. I've found it to be a huge issue. Especially in more controlling Stoneforge builds like Esper/Deathblade (there are also a couple of UW Control Blade decks in my meta). Those games tend to go very long and they have enough land (and basics) to render our mana denial plan sub-optimal eventually. Within that sort of context, their 3-4 TNNs provides a quite grim inevitability imo, especially in game 1.

Maybe in more tempo oriented shells like UWR delverTNN, the TNNs are less of an issue because our mana plan can hurt them a lot more.

Then again, I'm fairly inexperienced with the deck, being a combo player at heart, so it might just be that shining through :smile:

Mostly i just try to fly over TNN and disable any equipments they might have in play with revokers. Ofcourse he still is annoying and sometimes he is just gonna connect with a jitte and we're gonna lose. Mindcensor is good against stoneforge also.
I haven't played that much against deathblade or patriot so I might be wrong, but the matchups still feel ok to me. They're still playing a 3 colored deck against my wasteland, port, thalia deck. If you really want a boardcard against TNN i guess Holy light might be ok, since it also hits elves(which is a bad matchup). But i don't like casting 3 mana spells against tempo decks when i also want to have thalia in play.

[wcm8]

Holy Light is a card. Pretty nice option to have vs. Elves, Goblins, unflipped Delvers, unthreshed Mongeese, Grim Lavamancers, various tokens, and of course, True-Name Nemesis. (Yes, it is a 3-drop, but most TNN decks will likely be boarding out their counterspells against you.)

Not quite as elegant as something like Zealous Persecution, but it gets the job done without having to splash into another color.

[jin]

Holy Light is a card. Pretty nice option to have vs. Elves, Goblins, unflipped Delvers, unthreshed Mongeese, Grim Lavamancers, various tokens, and of course, True-Name Nemesis. (Yes, it is a 3-drop, but most TNN decks will likely be boarding out their counterspells against you.)

Not quite as elegant as something like Zealous Persecution, but it gets the job done without having to splash into another color.

yes, I saw this in a recent SCG deck. Pretty cool tech.

[Marowfreeze]

So I have been looking at people's deck list over the last several pages and I am wondering why no one is testing(either MB or SB) spirit of the labyrinth. It seems to me that it could be a huge blow out card when most decks run at least 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder if not a few gitaxion probes as well which in legacy is pseudo land for many decks. It breaks the hand sculpting power of combos and even gives us a better chance in one of D&Ts worse match ups(elves) completely ripping the combo seeing as we have mom and they only have maybe a few AD in SB. Did I miss discussion on this card some where? I know it is a hard spot fighting with Thalia, but it seems serra avenger could be cut 2 spots in many builds for this more synergistic card to the game plan

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[Zerog]

So I have been looking at people's deck list over the last several pages and I am wondering why no one is testing(either MB or SB) spirit of the labyrinth. It seems to me that it could be a huge blow out card when most decks run at least 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder if not a few gitaxion probes as well which in legacy is pseudo land for many decks. It breaks the hand sculpting power of combos and even gives us a better chance in one of D&Ts worse match ups(elves) completely ripping the combo seeing as we have mom and they only have maybe a few AD in SB. Did I miss discussion on this card some where? I know it is a hard spot fighting with Thalia, but it seems serra avenger could be cut 2 spots in many builds for this more synergistic card to the game plan

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The problem with spirit of the labyrinth is that he/she doesn't do very much. I like to compare him with Chains of mephistopheles, except tempo decks will just have a removal for him in response to their own brainstorm. Even though he can be good against elves, our main problem with that matchups is the fact that they natural order for a progenitus and kills us. He's just not that good of a hatebear. The best thing i see him doing is beating for 3 against miracledecks.
BTW i think that serra avenger is probably the best card in the deck. You should never play less than 4. I think playing less than 8 creatures with flying in the deck is just bad.
Another thing, I don't like Brimaz.
One last thing about the spirit is that it makes our deck play even more 1 toughness creatures, which can be an issue against golgari charm and other hate(sulfur elemental, marsh casualties, dread of night).

[Marowfreeze]

The problem with spirit of the labyrinth is that he/she doesn't do very much. I like to compare him with Chains of mephistopheles, except tempo decks will just have a removal for him in response to their own brainstorm. Even though he can be good against elves, our main problem with that matchups is the fact that they natural order for a progenitus and kills us. He's just not that good of a hatebear. The best thing i see him doing is beating for 3 against miracledecks.
BTW i think that serra avenger is probably the best card in the deck. You should never play less than 4. I think playing less than 8 creatures with flying in the deck is just bad.
Another thing, I don't like Brimaz.
One last thing about the spirit is that it makes our deck play even more 1 toughness creatures, which can be an issue against golgari charm and other hate(sulfur elemental, marsh casualties, dread of night).

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=04/20/2014&end_date=04/20/2014&start=1&finish=16

I'm not sure how it doesn't do much?
The link is to the top 16 from the most recent legacy event in Detroit.

Not counting Jace in any of these decks as he can technically deal with spirit.
12 of the 16 decks run at least 6 cards turned off by spirit (usually 4 brainstorm and some mix of ponder/baleful strix/gitaxion probe)

7 of the top 8 have at least 10 effects turned off by this

5 of those 7 only run 18 or less land with the big game plan of using the cantrips to find the land drops they need.

Prime example
Maverick v rug delver at one point maverick soft locked delver out of cantrips by putting him on one land and having Thalia out. Spirit does the same thing naturally.

How does a card that so effortlessly disrupts over half of the tier 1 decks in the format not "do much"? It slows them down, messes with the efficiency of finding answers and gas, is another target that has to be answered.

The golgari charm/toxic deluge is a valid concern except that is 2/3 spots in side boards again with the thought of using the 6-12 cantrips to find them....

This entire rant is entirely about the 1 card by itself, I have not even talked about the blow out vialing in spirit in response to brainstorm, turning one of the best cards in legacy into one of the worst, or how the deck is already turned nicely to saving our threats with mom and flickerwisp and redundancy

I feel like this card may not be a straight 4 of main, but a 2/2 main/side split sounds like format tech

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[jin]

txt on Spirit of the Labyrinth

Wow, it's a 3/1? I thought it was a 2/1. That's interesting. I could definitely see it take some slots away from Serra Avenger. Perhaps I just like how aggressive it is.

[dave8]

What do you side in/out against Miracles and BUG Delver?

[MrGlantz]

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=04/20/2014&end_date=04/20/2014&start=1&finish=16

I'm not sure how it doesn't do much?
The link is to the top 16 from the most recent legacy event in Detroit.

Not counting Jace in any of these decks as he can technically deal with spirit.
12 of the 16 decks run at least 6 cards turned off by spirit (usually 4 brainstorm and some mix of ponder/baleful strix/gitaxion probe)

7 of the top 8 have at least 10 effects turned off by this

5 of those 7 only run 18 or less land with the big game plan of using the cantrips to find the land drops they need.

Prime example
Maverick v rug delver at one point maverick soft locked delver out of cantrips by putting him on one land and having Thalia out. Spirit does the same thing naturally.

How does a card that so effortlessly disrupts over half of the tier 1 decks in the format not "do much"? It slows them down, messes with the efficiency of finding answers and gas, is another target that has to be answered.

The golgari charm/toxic deluge is a valid concern except that is 2/3 spots in side boards again with the thought of using the 6-12 cantrips to find them....

This entire rant is entirely about the 1 card by itself, I have not even talked about the blow out vialing in spirit in response to brainstorm, turning one of the best cards in legacy into one of the worst, or how the deck is already turned nicely to saving our threats with mom and flickerwisp and redundancy

I feel like this card may not be a straight 4 of main, but a 2/2 main/side split sounds like format tech

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The problem is he does less than the other two drops in the deck. What do you take out for him? He's pretty much inarguably worse in a post TNN world than Revoker, Thalia, Stoneforge, and serra avenger. And even three drops like Mangara, Brimaz, Mirran Crusader, and Aven Mindcensor aren't really worth swapping out for it.

It's strong enough to be sided in, but against most decks, what we already play is just plain better than it.

[Kayradis]

My list is still mutating with time.
I run 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth MD since my meta is Blue-heavy and got 2 more SB. Might cut 1 in the SB for more option.

At this point, I still run 2 Mangara, but want to swap them for 2 Serra Avenger (absent from my MD all together) since he doesn't do what I want him to do and when he's there, he's simply "win-more".

The 2 Runed Halo MD are simply amazing everytime.

I run a singleton of Brimaz, but might upgrade to 2 since he's that good.

What are your tweaks?

[Naemen]

I played in the SCG Detroit to a 5-3 finish (lost to OmniTell, Burn and UWR stoneforge with RestoAngel and wraths). My creature suite was
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
4 Revoker
3 Serra
3 Flickerwisp
2 Brimaz
2 Aven Mindcensor

Serra Avenger was the best creature throughout the day (not counting the obvious Mom and Thalia), it just isn't as vulnerable as many other of the creatures. It survives Punishing Fire and all the -1/-1 effects out of people's sb.
Flying and vigilance also makes it superior to anything else in combat.

In the issue about Spirit of the Labyrinth, I think the question is about finding a balance between 1) disruption-creatures, 2) creatures that dominate combat, and 3) flyers. Therefore, Spirit does not fight with Serra for a maindeck slot, but rather Spirit fights with the likes of Revoker and Mindcensor. What makes Thalia and Serra so good is because they each meet two of the above mentioned criteria. Revoker, Spirit and Brimaz only meets one. I think this criteria is better than just grouping the creatures into 2-drops and 3-drops.
Spirit seems fine though, and I may try one or two maindeck next time.

Also, it is risky to overload on the 1-toughness guys, especially after sb.

The gameplan against TNN is without a doubt to race it, and therefore a critical amount of fliers are required. Also SoFI is very, very good (by itself and not only against TNN), and I think it should be fetched way more often than what I have seen people do.

Brimaz was never relevant to me in the tournament, but since the sample was so small I cannot evaluate him.

[Rogan]

I too have been doubting the Cat King's place in my deck. I have shaved him to only 1 copy and put back in a single Mirran Crusader because as it stands my JUND match ups are just horrible.

I have a big tournament coming up next weekend in the form of a SCG Open (in Yokohama!) and would love any and all input on my deck.

My current deck list:

Creature (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Serra Avenger
4x Flickerwisp
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Mirran Crusader

Instant (4)
4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifact (7)
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Land (23)
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Eiganjo Castle

Sideboard (15)
2x Celestial Flare
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Rest in Peace
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Disenchant
1x Jötun Grunt

Notes:

0 Horizon Canopy, 1 Eiganjo Castle: I made this swap because the pain from canopy was happening way more often than it's cycle ability. I also have been getting pretty wrecked by punishing fire and this makes Thalia and Brimaz even better. This could very well just be a plains but I am trying this out for now.

4x Flickerwisp, 2x Serra Avenger: Flickerwisp has been my MVP in so many matches it is really hard to imagine me running less than 4 and I strongly suggest everyone to do the same. It is possible I can shave something else for a 3rd Serra Avenger as everyone seems to be speaking to its praises (maybe a 3 drop somewhere) but I have just won too many games off of the wisp to bring him down to less than 4.

Sideboard:
This is kind of a mess. My main concerns are JUND, Elves and TNN and I don't think I really do a great job at stopping any of them. I could really use some good advice on sideboard slots. I know that I want to keep the following: 2x Wilt-Leaf Liege (discard, -1/-1 effects, mostly black), 2x Ethersworn Canonist (Elves, Storm, Enchantress, etc), 2x Rest in Peace (standard graveyard hate), 1x Oblivion Ring (awesome applications across various match ups). That leaves me 8 slots.

2x Enlightened Tutor (I'd like to keep these as I don't run Canopy and it helps me get those silver bullets out and on time)
1x Pithing Needle (basically a 5th revoker but being able to shut off lands has been relevant in match ups)
1x Ratchet Bomb (I am pretty underwhelmed by this card but it seems great against dredge, elves, goblins, delver, etc token decks so I think 1 is good)
1x Disenchant (one of my only answers left against other SFM decks. I like this over manriki gusari for many reasons, mostly its application in non-SFM match ups)
1x Jötun Grunt (testing him out this weekend. I think it will help against JUND and lands which is something I am a little worried about)
2x Celestial Flare (my only dedicated TNN hate at the moment. Not sure if I want to run something like Holy Light instead for the application in other match ups like Elves).

This has turned into a long post. Basically I am looking to shore up match ups against mostly TNN and JUND. Any sideboard (or even main board) suggestions would be great! Thanks!!

[mrjumbo03]

2 DnT's in the BoM top8, at 2 and 5.

[AznSeal]

2 DnT's in the BoM top8, at 2 and 5.

What time does coverage start tomorrow in CST?

[Barook]

What time does coverage start tomorrow in CST?
It starts in about 4 hours after I post this, if it helps.

Krautman's list is way more weird:

2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Ghost Quarter
9 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy


2 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Batterskull
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Veteran Armorer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mother of Runes
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Wilt-leaf Liege

Pretty much straight copied from dredgemundo's 4-0 list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/230966

[MrShine]

I'm happy to see the Leonin Arbiter / Ghost Quarter package managing a decent finish. It's a fairly strong set up that I think is under-discussed.

So to start: What does the additional LD help against? How much (positive) splash are you going to get off the Arbiter effect?

Arbiter has some play to it. Vial it in in response to their SFM when they're low on land; what other Searching triggers/effects get play? Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor, GSZ / Natural Order (helps the Elves MU)...

In any case 8 Wastelands + Port is definitely powerful and worth looking at in more depth.

I like that he took 'Skull out of the main. Gutsy. And Veteran Armorer? Damn.

3 STP seems suspect but there was probably a heavy lean towards Control / Combo (inferred from EU meta as well as Aggroloam winning).

And as always, don't know how I feel about the Mindcensors; even with the Ghost Quarter synergy it still seems extraneous with 4 Arbiters.

[The Duck!!]

Isn't it too much to have 26 lands? I mean,yeah you have 12 colorless mana sources but isn't 26 lands too much?


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[from Cairo]

I'm happy to see the Leonin Arbiter / Ghost Quarter package managing a decent finish. It's a fairly strong set up that I think is under-discussed. In any case 8 Wastelands + Port is definitely powerful and worth looking at in more depth.

So to start: What does the additional LD help against? How much (positive) splash are you going to get off the Arbiter effect?
Seems most relevant versus control - Miracles. Against BUG/Jund midrange if you can catch them without DRite and maybe against non-Stifle Tempo decks thinking like UWR where you can cut them off a color with more ease.

Arbiter has some play to it. Vial it in in response to their SFM when they're low on land; what other Searching triggers/effects get play? Fetchlands, Infernal Tutor, GSZ / Natural Order (helps the Elves MU)...
You got the big ones, but Intuition, Entomb, Imperial Recruiter, Crop Rotation, Goblin Matron, Knight of the Reliquary, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Transmute Artifact, Merchant Scroll, Veteran Explorer, Expedition Map...

I like that he took 'Skull out of the main. Gutsy.
Seems correct in his build, given only 2 MD SFM - drawing the 'Skull w/o a way to cheat it in is clunky.

And Veteran Armorer? Damn.
I think WLL is better than Armorer, but to each their own.

3 STP seems suspect but there was probably a heavy lean towards Control / Combo (inferred from EU meta as well as Aggroloam winning).
This build clearly seemed tuned to the control combo meta - chopping SFMs, Mother, 'Skull and an STP in favor of more disruption.

Mindcensors...
Mindcensor seems even more intrical in this build since the deck is running Ghost Quarter and has dropped Serra Avengers - having that extra flying power and further insurance that Ghost Quarter is Strip Mine seems like a must.


Isn't it too much to have 26 lands? I mean,yeah you have 12 colorless mana sources but isn't 26 lands too much?
It has to be considered that the Wastelands and Ghost Quarters are there mostly as 0cc Stone Rains

[MrShine]

Anyone clued in to why he's running the full set of Spirit of the Labyrinth? I feel like I'd want the last SFMs over a couple of them, at least. Would it be mainly to punish U even further? Stop cantrips digging into land?

@ Duck - I feel like I'd cut down a few of the non-waste non-plains lands; I'd start with removing the Flagstones and Canopy. In fact, I believe I'm going to try it myself soon...

EDIT - Realized that cutting down on SFM is probably due to the anti-synergy with Arbiter. Also noticed the other 2 in the SB. Lots going on here!

[Barook]

Anyone clued in to why he's running the full set of Spirit of the Labyrinth? I feel like I'd want the last SFMs over a couple of them, at least. Would it be mainly to punish U even further? Stop cantrips digging into land?

@ Duck - I feel like I'd cut down a few of the non-waste non-plains lands; I'd start with removing the Flagstones and Canopy. In fact, I believe I'm going to try it myself soon...

EDIT - Realized that cutting down on SFM is probably due to the anti-synergy with Arbiter. Still, I think I'm going to start testing with 3.
The creator is planning to replace one GQ for another white source. 14 isn't still ideal, though.

SotL is the blue meta in general, in particular it's there for Miracles and Elves. Personally, I'm not a fan of it, either.

[Barbed Blightning]

I actually am fascinated by the list; I think it is, at the very least, a killer next-level design. It looks very well thought out, and given the rampant existence of blue (especially Miracles) I think the SotL package was a smart move--though I remain unimpressed by the card in my build

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[MrShine]

I actually am fascinated by the list; I think it is, at the very least, a killer next-level design. It looks very well thought out, and given the rampant existence of blue (especially Miracles) I think the SotL package was a smart move--though I remain unimpressed by the card in my build

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

I know someone who played the Arbiter build for a long time and he always had a lot of success with it.

This is pretty much the only time that I've seen a list where I think the SotL makes sense, although I still think I want a certain number of Mother of Runes in the main; it's just such a pain for the tempo decks, and it seems weird not having any CMC1 for Vial curves.

[The Duck!!]

Anyone clued in to why he's running the full set of Spirit of the Labyrinth? I feel like I'd want the last SFMs over a couple of them, at least. Would it be mainly to punish U even further? Stop cantrips digging into land?

@ Duck - I feel like I'd cut down a few of the non-waste non-plains lands; I'd start with removing the Flagstones and Canopy. In fact, I believe I'm going to try it myself soon...

EDIT - Realized that cutting down on SFM is probably due to the anti-synergy with Arbiter. Also noticed the other 2 in the SB. Lots going on here!

Think I'd rather remove 3 plains instead of canopy and flagstones.


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[Barbed Blightning]

I know someone who played the Arbiter build for a long time and he always had a lot of success with it.

This is pretty much the only time that I've seen a list where I think the SotL makes sense, although I still think I want a certain number of Mother of Runes in the main; it's just such a pain for the tempo decks, and it seems weird not having any CMC1 for Vial curves.

Fry? Yeah, he also runs crusaders as well; rare are his posts on this forum, however.

It's an odd list, but with streamlining, I think it has great potential

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[MrShine]

2x D&T in the top 16 of SCG Cinci! One of them even took 1st ;)

[GoblinZ]

A question: do you side wit-leaf liege in against Deathblade？what do you usually side out in this mu？Thx.

[Barbed Blightning]

A question: do you side wit-leaf liege in against Deathblade？what do you usually side out in this mu？Thx.

It's always tough, because the deck has many permutations (of course, playing 4 colors does that). If I see a Lilly game one, then yes; otherwise, I treat it like any other Blade deck--O rings, disenchant/manriki, pithing needle

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[GoblinZ]

It's always tough, because the deck has many permutations (of course, playing 4 colors does that). If I see a Lilly game one, then yes; otherwise, I treat it like any other Blade deck--O rings, disenchant/manriki, pithing needle

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Yeah, they always have about 2 Lilly in the main and 2 zealous persecution from sideboard. I think I should side in liege, but I fear that I may overboard here and I am not sure what to take out（I always take out flickerwisp first and don‘t know what to take out then）. So mabye I should side in liege only against Jund or Bug variants?

[Barbed Blightning]

Yeah, they always have about 2 Lilly in the main and 2 zealous persecution from sideboard. I think I should side in liege, but I fear that I may overboard here and I am not sure what to take out（I always take out flickerwisp first and don‘t know what to take out then）. So mabye I should side in liege only against Jund or Bug variants?

Yeah, I'd start by cutting Moms and maybe StP; you want a density of disruptive threats. I'd only add liege after my needles, disenchant and rings came in. Cataclysm is also good vs them

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[Arsenal]

I wouldn't cut Moms against Blade decks. That is how we win/break even in ground battles while blanking all of their spot removal.

[Barbed Blightning]

I wouldn't cut Moms against Blade decks. That is how we win/break even in ground battles while blanking all of their spot removal.

All.... 4 of them?

maybe it's a bit next level, but blade typically brings in more wipes, against which mom is utter shit. I'd sooner swap mom for Pithing Needle, Cataclysm and an O ring.

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[GoblinZ]

I feel cataclysm may not be that good against deathblade sometimes, for example when they already have a progenifish on board or you have thalia on board. So I assume mabye it is safer to side cataclysm in only against tribal or pure control like miracle, maybe I am just wrong on this...

[Arsenal]

The primary purpose of Mom in the Blade matchup is to break stalled boardstates and the secondary purpose is to blank their removal. Sure, they run 4 StP (and sometimes 1 Vindicate), but also run 2-3 Snaps, so Mom is always going to be live. I definitely don't board in Cataclysm against Blade as it's only good when your board is already winning.

[Barbed Blightning]

The primary purpose of Mom in the Blade matchup is to break stalled boardstates and the secondary purpose is to blank their removal. Sure, they run 4 StP (and sometimes 1 Vindicate), but also run 2-3 Snaps, so Mom is always going to be live. I definitely don't board in Cataclysm against Blade as it's only good when your board is already winning.

Or when the board is stalled, or when you need to slay their Jace/Lilly. Aside from TNN+Jitte, I think casting Cataclysm usually ends up with them suffering--especially when you have a vial.

The problem with Mom is that by herself she's bad; when she's paired with a creature she's quite awesome. But against decks with wipes and lillies she is a terrible top deck vs an empty board.

However, what would you cut for the Deathblade matchup?



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[Arsenal]

Or when the board is stalled, or when you need to slay their Jace/Lilly.

Is this referring to why Mom should stay in postboard or are you referring to the use of Cataclysm? Because Cataclysm doesn't help you when a board is stalled nor does it force them to sacrifice Lili/Jace, so I'm assuming you're expounding as to why Mom is an allstar in fair matchups.


Aside from TNN+Jitte, I think casting Cataclysm usually ends up with them suffering--especially when you have a vial.

Maybe. I mean, if they're left with a blue dual, a DRS, and some cards in hand, that seems okay-ish to build your board from. And yes, if we have a land, dude, Vial after a Cataclsym, that's awesome, but that also implies we had an advantageous board position pre-Cataclsym.


The problem with Mom is that by herself she's bad; when she's paired with a creature she's quite awesome. But against decks with wipes and lillies she is a terrible top deck vs an empty board.

I agree, she's a semi-bad topdeck and requires other creatures in order to shine. But the same can be said of Aether Vial and you certainly don't cut those.

[MrShine]

Oracle text on Cataclysm: "Each player chooses from the permanents he or she controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a land, then sacrifices the rest."

So Planeswalkers are indeed sacrificed. Eat that, Jace!

On the topic of what to remove vs Deathblade... this one is really hard to say. I have the most success in the match disrupting their manabase, but obviously we're not going to cut any of those guys.

Frequently I'll just trim whatever seems sub-optimal; maybe 1 Mom, 1 Revoker, 1 Wisp (I run 4 atm) as they're bringing in ZP. Its hard to say as each of our cards has its niche role in the MU and you can't really say one is going to be that much better than the others as it depends what exactly they draw. SFM / Jace styled draws from them will be crippled by Revoker, but they could easily get the STP / Snap / TNN plan online as well which is where we want Mom. So basically I'm just trimming for bullet answers and hoping to draw the right answers to their specific opener after prioritizing LD.

I like having extra removal post board for the MU and will usually bring in Celestial Flare. Cataclysm seems alright but it doesn't answer TNN so I prefer to go with Flare / Disenchant / Needle here. I also like PTE in the board so would consider bringing that in too if I saw Confidants (probably before the Needle).

On another note, when are we siding out Batterskull? I'm usually going for Jitte first in most matches, but I definitely want it against Miracles and SnT (better clock than Jitte with a SFM draw)... Do we need it vs Deathblade & Esperblade? I feel like cutting 1 SFM 1 Batterskull is a nice way to open up some room post side, just need to figure out what MUs it's best for.

[Arsenal]

Lol, brain fart. Yeah, Jace/Lili bites the dust. Hmm..., definitely a worthy inclusion then.

[mrjumbo03]

Split the finals of a 42-man tourney over here. Deck is stock again, except for 3 Serra Avenger, 3 Flickerwisps, 2 Brimaz, and 2 Mangara. Oh and I had 4 Karakas and no caverns.

R1 Esperblade 2-0 (1-0) Raced a True Name with my SoFI-equipped Avenger. G2 Mangara-locked him after he fired 3 brainstorms without drawing a fetch to shuffle away chaff.
R2 Sneakshow 2-0 (2-0) G1 I had no idea what my opponent was on but I kept a double Karakas hand with Mom, Thalia and Revoker. Luckily it was SneakShow. G2 he manages to land a blood moon against my Karakas, Canopy and Port, but he has no answer to my resolved Ensnaring Bridge.
R3 BUG Delver 1-1 (2-0-1) G1 won a long game when I managed to set up Mangara lock and stabilized against his 3 Goyfs at a low life. G2 he lands a turn 2 Sylvan which is bad news. Flooded this game - drew 8 lands. G3 I was lucky because his 2 Delvers didn't flip for 3 turns, leaving him one turn short of killing me.
R4 SneakShow 2-0 (3-0-1) G1 Mull to 6 to a double Vial, Karakas Revoker hand. G2 Mull to 6 again for hate and won a much longer game behind Ensnaring Bridge, Revoker, Thalia and Karakas.
R5 BUG Delver 2-1 (4-0-1) G1 I drew more relevant threats, ended pretty fast. G2 Mulled to 5, and lost after not drawing a 2nd land. G3 Mulled to 6, it was a long game but managed to win behind SoFI equipped Brimaz with a little help from Karakas and Spellskite for double protection.
R6 Esperblade (4-0-2) Drew into top 8.

T8 R4SneakShow opponent 2-1 G1 mulled to 5 for the perfect Vial Karakas Revoker hand. G2 mulled to 5 and lost even behind double revoker and thalia which he managed to answer. G3 mulled to 6, won without Karakas but had Pithing (countered) and 2 Revokers, my hand would've been cold to an Emrakul because he also had a Blood Moon.
T4 R6Esperblade opponent 2-0 G1 he was short on mana after I wasted him, and he got stuck on 2 lands - managed to Mangara lock him as well. G2 was an extremely long game where he stabilized when he was at 2 life. Final plays of the long match was when he had a Vendilion in play, and a Snap equipped with Jitte and Manriki against my board of lots of land (Karakas among them), my 1 Cat token from Brimaz and a Celestial Flare in my hand which he knows of because of the Clique. He swung with his Clique, but I respond with porting one of his 3 lands during his combat step forcing him to tap out and drop a 2nd Clique to get rid of my Flare, drew a Mangara with an active vial on 3, dropped it onto play. Drew a Flickerwisp for my turn so I flickered his Snap, Karakas'd his Clique and swung for lethal with Mangara and Cat token.
Split the finals against R3 opponent because it was almost 11pm already. R3, R4(also my T8 opponent), R5 and T4 opponents are all extremely good players who have multiple top8's in our legacy community.

Brimaz and Mangara did a lot of work for me in the tourney. Keep on taxing!

[Technicolor Mage]

Is it possible for someone to post "current"

Aggro build
Control build


I am really interested in seeing the differences (laid out again maybe) I went searching, but I don't see much difference in them.


I don't want to see the new build, although that may or may not be what the builds in the future morph into

Thanks in advance

Nice to see Death and Taxes take the last Open!

[Barbed Blightning]

Is it possible for someone to post "current"

Aggro build
Control build


I am really interested in seeing the differences (laid out again maybe) I went searching, but I don't see much difference in them.


I don't want to see the new build, although that may or may not be what the builds in the future morph into

Thanks in advance

Nice to see Death and Taxes take the last Open!

It's a difference in about 4 cards.

Control:
2 Mangara
2 mindcensor

Aggro:
2 crusader
1-2 Brimaz
1-2 other (Avenger, Aven, etc).

Honestly Mangara is the deciding factor between "Aggro" and "Control," even though we are a control deck most of the time

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Technicolor Mage]

Thanks for that little bit of insight

I like to run 4x Karakas but I am not sure that doing so is optimal, even with 3x Mangara anymore? Thoughts?

I didn't realize the two builds were so close. I go back and forth on Mangara. When it's good, it's wrecks people, but often I wonder if I just want more of other fliers.

Also, since I have a hate for WLL, I am really loving the inclusion of Linvala in the new list.

What are other peoples thoughts on it? I plan to test it tomorrow night msyelf

[from Cairo]

I like to run 4x Karakas but I am not sure that doing so is optimal, even with 3x Mangara anymore? Thoughts?

I haven't really liked 4x since the Legend rule change. When it used to state-based neutralize the opponent's copy, an extra one would fit our mana denial plan, while also serving as an answer to a card that is generally disruptive against us. I've since liked 3x because it is still very good against - Sneak and Show, Reanimator, Miracles and the Mirror (3/4ths of which don't run Wasteland, so one copy is sufficient). At 3x it's not uncommon that we see one early (mathematically in the first ~20 cards) or two in a long game, but the likelihood of it coming up in doubles early on is less.

I haven't been running any Mangara for quite a while, so I can't say how much of a factor that change would influence my Karakas count. I think more important is what one's meta is. If you're seeing lots of Reanimator, Sneak and Show and Miracles, maybe 4x is good. Similarly if there are lots of decks that Mangara lock is particularly good against then I could see wanting to ensure that as much as possible - again maybe high saturation of Miracles or other control strategies. The more midrange strategies that I see - particularly Equipment based decks and XXB decks with -X/-X effects the less exciting a focus on Karakas + Mangara seems.

[raikenxy]

after a lot of testing i have cut the two brimaz entirely from my list, instead adding a third mindcensor and 4th serra avenger. so far haven't looked back, most of the games i've played i've normally won before brimaz even comes down. He's a powerful card, but often times the nail is already in the coffin by the time i have three counters on aether vial or the chance to hard cast him.

[Naemen]

after a lot of testing i have cut the two brimaz entirely from my list, instead adding a third mindcensor and 4th serra avenger. so far haven't looked back, most of the games i've played i've normally won before brimaz even comes down. He's a powerful card, but often times the nail is already in the coffin by the time i have three counters on aether vial or the chance to hard cast him.

I agree. Each time I drew Brimaz he could have been literally any dork to win me the game; pure beatdown creatures are not necessary. The tokens doesn't even do anything if they have like a Deathrite or o Stoneforge in play.
Flying is just soooooooo much more important, Serra Avenger is just everything you want to dominate combat. I'll play 4 next time.

[Arsenal]

I got crushed by Jund yesterday. I feel like this matchup is nigh unwinnable as they play a metric ton of removal, sac effects, and can get around the mana denial strategy with DRS.

[Mr. Froggy]

I got crushed by Jund yesterday. I feel like this matchup is nigh unwinnable as they play a metric ton of removal, sac effects, and can get around the mana denial strategy with DRS.

The only times I've won vs Jund was by having god draws and a god opening hand.

[Barook]

I got crushed by Jund yesterday. I feel like this matchup is nigh unwinnable as they play a metric ton of removal, sac effects, and can get around the mana denial strategy with DRS.
Yes, Jund is terribe, but Elves is way worse.

You need to try keeping the PF engine and Liliana offline and sticking a Mom, if possible. RiP helps post-board, as does Liege. It's also one of the few match-ups where Brimaz is better than Crusader in the beater slot. Still terrible, though.

[Rogan]

I just came back from the Star City Games sponsored Big Magic Open in Yokohama, Japan! I placed in the top 64 and went 6 and 3. There were just over 400 people there I believe. Here is the deck list I submitted:

Creature (26)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
3x Flickerwisp
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Mirran Crusader

Spells (11)
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Land (23)
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
3x Karakas
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy

Sideboard (15)
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Rest in Peace
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Spellskite
1x Cataclysm
1x Sunlance

I defeated RUG Delver twice (very easy match up. Even mulled to 5 twice in one set against them and still won handily), defeated BUG Thopter Foundry Combo (Jace/Lil/Thopter+Sword of the Meek for win cons), defeated ANT (luckily he screwed up mid combo but I still felt I had the match up down), Merflok (kept his vials off of 3 and kept his lands locked down to 2 so he couldn't cast TNN), and Sneak and Show (also a fairly easy match up).

I lost to BUG Delver (game one he had 2 5/6 goyfs swinging on turn 4, can't win that. The second game he just tempoed me out), Lost to dredge (game one was game one, won game two and kept a sketchy hand in game 3 due to a T2 RiP but he was able to go off and therapy it out of my hand before I could cast it), and Lost to Elves 0-2 which took a combined total of around 5 minutes.

Post event thoughts:

Dropping 2x Brimaz for 1x Serra Avenger (bringing them to 3x) and 1x Mirran Crusader was the best decision I ever made. Brimaz never really did anything for me in any match up and I'm not sure that even if I had a miser's copy that I would have been happy to draw it. Evasion is definitely the key in this deck and dropping him has worked out really well for me.

Dropping 1x Aven Mindcensor and 1x Flickerwisp for 2x Spirit of the Labyrinth on the other hand... not so much. I think 2x Aven is really really good and probably necessary. I really, really needed him instead of Spirit in a lot of match ups. However, having 1x available to me seems really good against a lot of strategies (including elves and especially things like enchantress) and I long for the time where I can get someone with a vial on 2 trying to draw extra cards. So I think I keep in one and bump Aven back up to 2x.

My board is a bit of a mess but I really need more TNN help, that's for sure. I dropped my 2x Enlightened Tutor which I think is the right move (it is card disadvantage and potentially a tempo loss) but I really need some more answers to TNN and probably elves.

The slots I definitely want to keep and have put in serious work are:
2x Ethersworn Canonist, 2x Wilt-Leaf Liege, 2x Oblivion Ring, 2x Rest in Peace, 1x Grafdigger's Cage, 1x Manriki-Gusari, 1x Pithing Needle, 1x Ratchet Bomb

The slots I am unsure of are:
1x Spellskite, 1x Cataclysm, 1x Sunlance

Sunlance has actually really been helpful. Having a 5th piece of removal for T1 DRS, Delver, random goblins/merfolk, etc has been really good for me.
Spellskite I like against punishing fire decks. That card gives me the most trouble and having essentially a 5th mother of runes in match ups with the card can be really helpful. Plus you can always live the dream and equip it up to put on the beats.
Cataclysm... seems way too slow. I think in any match up I might want it I either die before I hit 4 mana or they just have better creatures that can outclass mine. I am thinking about putting in another piece of TNN hate over this just because I am just dead to that card.

1x Celestial Flare seems good but limited in non-TNN match ups.
1x Holy Light seems to be really good against TNN and other decks that have annoying X/1s (elves, goblin tokens, etc) so it seems like a more versatile answer.
1x Runed Halo naming TNN, Tendrils, etc might also be a more versatile answer. I am still trying to think of what to run here.

Any thoughts or comments would be most appreciated!

[Barbed Blightning]

Celestial Flare is stellar removal; I never leave home without 2. Most decks nowadays run about a dozen dudes; swarm aggro has basically fallen off the map. C flare will almost always be decent to amazing.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[carefulmug]

Has anybody been testing Krautmann's Arbiter build from BoM?

I was thinking:

-2 SFM
-4 SotL
-2 Aven Mindcensor
-2 Mangara
-1 Ghost Quarter

and

+1 Mother of the Runes
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Mask of Memory
+4 Judge's Familiar
+3 Serra Avenger

---

What do people think of running some number of PtE in the SB of this version? It would help swing the game in our favor against Elves at least.

[p0werslave]

I'm new to the game. I'm in doubt about the correct use of flickerwisp.
Let's say i have a vial At 3 And My opponent attacks with a 3/3 And a 2/2: i vial in My flickerwisp exiling The 3/3 And blocking The 2/2... does the exiled creature return to the battlefield At The end step given that flickerwisp is no longer in play? Thanks

Inviato dal mio SM-G900F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Mammutti]

@p0werslave: Yes your opponent's creature comes back at the end of turn. "At the beginning of the next end step" is a delayed trigger and doesn't care if the card causing the trigger is still in play or not. Similar to Sneak Attack. You activate it, and even if Sneak Attack leaves play before the end of turn you still need to sacrifice your creature at the end step.

[Barook]

I'm new to the game. I'm in doubt about the correct use of flickerwisp.
Let's say i have a vial At 3 And My opponent attacks with a 3/3 And a 2/2: i vial in My flickerwisp exiling The 3/3 And blocking The 2/2... does the exiled creature return to the battlefield At The end step given that flickerwisp is no longer in play? Thanks
Yes, it does return, since Flickerwisp isn't relevant to the trigger itself.

[Red Zone]

Runed Halo has done some pretty stellar work for me. Won me games against Grindstone, Tendrils and True-Name Nemesis. I play two in the board.

[Barbed Blightning]

Has anybody been testing Krautmann's Arbiter build from BoM?

I was thinking:

-2 SFM
-4 SotL
-2 Aven Mindcensor
-2 Mangara
-1 Ghost Quarter

and

+1 Mother of the Runes
+1 Swords to Plowshares
+2 Mask of Memory
+4 Judge's Familiar
+3 Serra Avenger

---

What do people think of running some number of PtE in the SB of this version? It would help swing the game in our favor against Elves at least.

Why in the Seven Hells would we play mask of memory without Jotun Grunt or cut SFM from the deck?

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[mario91234]

Greetings thread,

My name is mario and im a long time advocate of your enemy TES. I recently decided to learn D+T as the meta continues to be extremely hostile to TES, however I still want my opponent to feel that they aren't playing magic. After seeing the merfolk list that top8'd the scg open with MD chalice of the void, I got to brewing with this shell as I believe it has the best potential for it.

This is what I have come up with:


3 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mirran Crusader
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
9 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Fiend Hunter
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 AEther Vial
2 Weathered Wayfarer
SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 War Priest of Thune
SB: 2 Weathered Wayfarer
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Mishra's Factory
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks

I want to run a cavern heavy version to support these chalices and the human theme helps play around daze and the resurgence of spell snare/counterbalance considerably, hence the heavy human theme. Clearly, flickerwisp and serra avenger are barely castable now, but honestly is there considerably value over them and mirran crusader? Additionally, weathered wayfarer continues to impress me as an insane engine just as potable as mother of runes vs the 3 color midrange decks. Furthermore, i have found kitchen finks to be absolutely critical in the bug and jund matchups and will likely go up a copy. Looking forward to some critical feedback. And yes, I have read the primer on mtgs.

[Deadpool]

Greetings thread,

My name is mario and im a long time advocate of your enemy TES. I recently decided to learn D+T as the meta continues to be extremely hostile to TES, however I still want my opponent to feel that they aren't playing magic. After seeing the merfolk list that top8'd the scg open with MD chalice of the void, I got to brewing with this shell as I believe it has the best potential for it.

This is what I have come up with:


I want to run a cavern heavy version to support these chalices and the human theme helps play around daze and the resurgence of spell snare/counterbalance considerably, hence the heavy human theme. Clearly, flickerwisp and serra avenger are barely castable now, but honestly is there considerably value over them and mirran crusader? Additionally, weathered wayfarer continues to impress me as an insane engine just as potable as mother of runes vs the 3 color midrange decks. Furthermore, i have found kitchen finks to be absolutely critical in the bug and jund matchups and will likely go up a copy. Looking forward to some critical feedback. And yes, I have read the primer on mtgs.

The human theme with Caverns does let you play them through a Chalice of the Void, however it doesn't help you with Swords and Vials. You'll notice that Jonathan Aiken's list doesn't run vials or 1 mana removal. It is an interesting list, 4 caverns is a lot and depending on your draws, could be a whole lot of colorless mana. There is a list out there in Angel Stompy (I think the thread in New and Developing is called Tax and Taxes) where you play the Sol Lands with Chalice and most of the creatures closely resemble DnT's creature package.

[mario91234]

I actually find that the colorless mana is fine since we either 1-curve out, 2-play vial, or 3-tap lands for the early game. I've had little issue with it.

[Technicolor Mage]

Has anyone tried Blind Obedience at all. Surely this card was at least discussed but I couldn't really find any serious discussion on it. I realize it's a tempo card and not a creature with abilities on a stick but having your opponents creatures come in tapped does have the potential to be a type of taxing card. Extort certainly could be useful in the mid game onwards. Not so sure we have the mana for it in the early game and if we do, we probably should have mulled.

It feels like it was just passed over

[Barbed Blightning]

Has anyone tried Blind Obedience at all. Surely this card was at least discussed but I couldn't really find any serious discussion on it. I realize it's a tempo card and not a creature with abilities on a stick but having your opponents creatures come in tapped does have the potential to be a type of taxing card. Extort certainly could be useful in the mid game onwards. Not so sure we have the mana for it in the early game and if we do, we probably should have mulled.

It feels like it was just passed over

Try it out. Personally, I think better/higher impact cards can and should be played, but if in your testing you find it to be superb, by all means let us know.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[DavidHernandez]

Has anyone tried Blind Obedience at all. Surely this card was at least discussed but I couldn't really find any serious discussion on it. I realize it's a tempo card and not a creature with abilities on a stick but having your opponents creatures come in tapped does have the potential to be a type of taxing card. Extort certainly could be useful in the mid game onwards. Not so sure we have the mana for it in the early game and if we do, we probably should have mulled.

It feels like it was just passed over
It was not passed over. I ran it in my board for a while, but it had such narrow, limited use that I dropped it. What's it good against? Elves? Really not much else. Grafdigger's Cage was much better and it also hit Graveyard decks. If you want to run something like it for testing, use Imposing Sovereign. At least you get a 2/1 body that works with Vial.

[Technicolor Mage]

I was going to test imposing sovereign as well. I thought extort might have some significance which is why blind obedience looked alright to me. Was extort ever significant?

[The Duck!!]

I don't think you'll be casting spells that much during mid-late game because you'll be vialing in your creatures and probably controlling his lands via ports.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Barook]

Looks like we got a solution to TNN with Conspiracy, guys:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/cns/asdfsc3wfas234/4ev6B0yf0P_EN.jpg

Can also be used to get rid of our pro-guys like Mom, however. But with all the -1/-1 effects around, that seems like a minor issue.

It can also permantenly kill off annoying Planeswalkers like Liliana or Jace.

Good times, good times!

[Barbed Blightning]

Looks like we got a solution to TNN with Conspiracy, guys:

http://media.wizards.com/images/magic/tcg/products/cns/asdfsc3wfas234/4ev6B0yf0P_EN.jpg

Can also be used to get rid of our pro-guys like Mom, however. But with all the -1/-1 effects around, that seems like a minor issue.

It can also permantenly kill off annoying Planeswalkers like Liliana or Jace.

Good times, good times!

3 issues:

1) WW1 is quite expensive to cast, even in a deck sporting as tough a mana base as ours. It's even more expensive with Thalia out.

2) due to its price tag, TNN tempo's counters can more easily snag it. They may cut Pierces, but depending on if they are playing or drawing, Daze can still be a factor. And even though Tempo is not a primary factor in how we play, if they manage to counter it and we are getting pummeled, we'll have more or less put ourselves in a corner for that turn.


3) my biggest concern: it's a sorcery. Yes it can be a haymaker, but it is going to impact our Ports, Wastes and Karakas tricks by its very nature.

I would sooner play celestial flare: its cheaper, faster and punishes your brainless opponents (while disrupting your savvy ones just by the mere threat of it.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[mrjumbo03]

Re: new card, it says each player votes for a nonland stuff you don't control. So it means that your opponent can't pick something of yours right? If yes, then it's awesome.

[nevilshute]

3 issues:

1) WW1 is quite expensive to cast, even in a deck sporting as tough a mana base as ours. It's even more expensive with Thalia out.

2) due to its price tag, TNN tempo's counters can more easily snag it. They may cut Pierces, but depending on if they are playing or drawing, Daze can still be a factor. And even though Tempo is not a primary factor in how we play, if they manage to counter it and we are getting pummeled, we'll have more or less put ourselves in a corner for that turn.


3) my biggest concern: it's a sorcery. Yes it can be a haymaker, but it is going to impact our Ports, Wastes and Karakas tricks by its very nature.

I would sooner play celestial flare: its cheaper, faster and punishes your brainless opponents (while disrupting your savvy ones just by the mere threat of it.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

These are my concerns too. With Thalia out this effectively is a :2::w::w: spot removal at sorcery speed. I like that it gives us an out to Progenitus but all in all I think it's going to be too clunky. Think Miracles will be likely to get this to work.

[Barook]

Costing 3 (or 4 mana with Thalia) might be a concern, just as sorcery speed, but that's about it.

It's an unconditional kill spell for any creature, but it can also kill dreaded Planeswalkers like Liliana right on the spot. Being able to get rid of annoying artifacts or enchantments is just the icing on the cake.

I'll try out 2-3 copies in my sideboard for sure since flexibility at a reasonable cost is king.

[Finn]

To see if it is any good think of the card this way: It is an Oblivion Ring that:

1. Can hit True Name Nemesis
2. Can not be undone with something like Pernicious Deed
3. Can hit Nimble Mongoose
4. Can not be fetched with Enlightened Tutor
5. Has a harder color requirement
6. Not handy facing Show and Tell

I dunno folks. Seems good to me. Looks like almost a strict upgrade to a card we don't much use though.

[Tormod]

Yup, 2 in the sideboard.

Upgrade over O-ring

[MrShine]

I know I'm excited to start casting it. Answer to anything, yesplease.

[Megadeus]

Having a nice catch all seems awesome. Worse vs SnT, but it's not like this deck doesnt play 3 Karakas among other cards good against SnT anyway.

[DavidHernandez]

To see if it is any good think of the card this way: It is an Oblivion Ring that:

1. Can hit True Name Nemesis
2. Can not be undone with something like Pernicious Deed
3. Can hit Nimble Mongoose
4. Can not be fetched with Enlightened Tutor
5. Has a harder color requirement
6. Not handy facing Show and Tell

I dunno folks. Seems good to me. Looks like almost a strict upgrade to a card we don't much use though.
This card has me a little confused. It says each player casts a vote. TNN can't be targeted by us, so we can't vote for TNN, can we? Also, it doesn't say the opponent has to choose a different permanent to vote for, so they can vote for the same one you do, effectively losing only one permanent.

How can it hit Nimble Mongoose, which has Shroud?
How can it hit Progenitus, with it's "protection from everything"?

How is this better than Wrath of God or Oblivion Ring when if we can't target?

I really don't understand. What am I missing? Is there a ruling that allows us to vote for non-targetable permanents?

Thanks in advance.

Dave

[Tyrio]

Voting isn't targeting, which is why you can hit through shroud and protection. Spells and abilities don't target unless they say target or are auras.

Sent from my SGH-T999L using Tapatalk

[Tormod]

Voting =/= Targeting

[DavidHernandez]

Ok, thanks. That's pretty awesome.

[Mr. Froggy]

Having a nice catch all seems awesome. Worse vs SnT, but it's not like this deck doesnt play 3 Karakas among other cards good against SnT anyway.

Even before the spoiler, SnT is almost a bye for D&T.

[Said-In-Contest]

Hi everyone!
I'm playing the deck for a while and I'm finding troubles when i have to side...the point is the deck is so consistent in its maindeck configuration that i find more then challenging to side out the correct cards, always reminding not to break the sinergy berween the MD cards.
So i start from my current list, just to have something to refere to:

LANDS 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
12 Plains
3 Karakas

CREATURES 26
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Flickerwisp
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mirran Crusader


4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Path to Exile / Sunlance
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari


So, the only thing i know for sure, is that you don't have to overside with this deck, so it will be good to be able to side the minimum ammount of cards as possible...
Then problems start...for exemple, vs team america i'd like to have 3 RiP, 2 Wilt-Leaf and a PtE / Sunlance....but these are 6 cards...how am i supposed to take 6 cards out from a build like that?! :(((((((((((

having that said, can someone help with the sideboarding plans vs the most common decks in the format? Here is the list

Miracles
Team America
Death & Taxes (Mirror)
Deathblade
Sneak And Show
Patriot
Elves
Painter

Just a few to start.
Thank you everyone for the help! I'm asking you because it will be great to hear what a more experienced player than me usually do!!

[dcosiem]

Hello fellow Magic enthusiast or Death and Taxes players,

I consider myself a Legacy amateur. I've been playing this format for about 3 years. I like to think that I know the whole format, and all the cards people use in their decks. For I myself, I play most of the decks in Legacy. Perhaps willing or not, I think at this moment, Death and Taxes seems well ahead of everyone in terms of winning percentage of the field since so many new cards have been added with these new few sets. I don't think anyone can argue this point because Spirit of the Labyrinth or Aegis of the Gods are just too good to not be played in this control, hate-bear deck. Let me give you my point, Spirit of the Labyrinth must be played in this deck because it's so good against all combo/tempo/blue deck strategies. The reasons are self-explanatory--draw 1 card per turn. I'm playing just about 3 in my list I think. I only need 2, but consider it's power, I think an extra one couldn't hurt because it will likely be removed. I think this card is nuts because it serves more purpose than Thalia, which I've put her number down to 2 because simply makes powerful blue decks become fair decks, which for us makes our decks more powerful because we play more advantageous components to our winning strategy. No sir, you cannot Brainstorm at the end of my turn. No sir, you can not Ponder during your turn. No sir, you cannot cast Enter the Infinite to cast Cunning Wish into Release the Ants. No sir, you cannot pay 7 life to draw 7 cards to counter Swords to Plowshare on your Griselbrand.

I'm also going to add another point. I have 1 Ghost Quarter in my deck because I play Aven Mindscensor, which will sometimes causes my opponents to miss retrieving a basic land about 50% of the times. I also consider running 1 because the fact that so many decks play nothing but dual lands, that even destroying 1 land can cause them to retrieve no land because they don't run basics.

For any odd measure of occurrence in random deck tech, I'm running a single Chrome Mox on top my 23 land decks because even sometimes I feel that this deck still needs more than 23 lands especially during it's opening draw because sometimes I'll be stuck with non-castable cards due to non-white producing lands. That is the cost of using Wastelands and Rishadan Ports, but overall it's a good strategy when our control lock is on board.

I'm coming to agree that this deck is simply a control deck because Thaila, Revoker, Spirit of L, and Aven simply stops our opponent from executing their strategy.

Thank you for your patience. I hope you enjoy my post.

Dan

[raikenxy]

Hello fellow Magic enthusiast or Death and Taxes players,

I consider myself a Legacy amateur. I've been playing this format for about 3 years. I like to think that I know the whole format, and all the cards people use in their decks. For I myself, I play most of the decks in Legacy. Perhaps willing or not, I think at this moment, Death and Taxes seems well ahead of everyone in terms of winning percentage of the field since so many new cards have been added with these new few sets. I don't think anyone can argue this point because Spirit of the Labyrinth or Aegis of the Gods are just too good to not be played in this control, hate-bear deck. Let me give you my point, Spirit of the Labyrinth must be played in this deck because it's so good against all combo/tempo/blue deck strategies. The reasons are self-explanatory--draw 1 card per turn. I'm playing just about 3 in my list I think. I only need 2, but consider it's power, I think an extra one couldn't hurt because it will likely be removed. I think this card is nuts because it serves more purpose than Thalia, which I've put her number down to 2 because simply makes powerful blue decks become fair decks, which for us makes our decks more powerful because we play more advantageous components to our winning strategy. No sir, you cannot Brainstorm at the end of my turn. No sir, you can not Ponder during your turn. No sir, you cannot cast Enter the Infinite to cast Cunning Wish into Release the Ants. No sir, you cannot pay 7 life to draw 7 cards to counter Swords to Plowshare on your Griselbrand.

I'm also going to add another point. I have 1 Ghost Quarter in my deck because I play Aven Mindscensor, which will sometimes causes my opponents to miss retrieving a basic land about 50% of the times. I also consider running 1 because the fact that so many decks play nothing but dual lands, that even destroying 1 land can cause them to retrieve no land because they don't run basics.

For any odd measure of occurrence in random deck tech, I'm running a single Chrome Mox on top my 23 land decks because even sometimes I feel that this deck still needs more than 23 lands especially during it's opening draw because sometimes I'll be stuck with non-castable cards due to non-white producing lands. That is the cost of using Wastelands and Rishadan Ports, but overall it's a good strategy when our control lock is on board.

I'm coming to agree that this deck is simply a control deck because Thaila, Revoker, Spirit of L, and Aven simply stops our opponent from executing their strategy.

Thank you for your patience. I hope you enjoy my post.

Dan

if this post is a joke ... well played. if not... i think you need to jam a couple thousand more games with Death and Taxes. DnT is easily the most thoroughly vetted/optimized decks in the format. Only RUG Delver has a more standardized 60 in the format. Running two thalia's is a mistake... especially if your doing it to jam a bad card in spirit of the labyrinth into your main 60. You are correct in saying that this is a control deck... but even more so it is a THALIA deck, run four thalia's. If your running SOL to hose blue decks and griselbrand decks then you haven't really played with this deck that much at all. Thalia against all forms of blue decks whether they be any of the delver variants, jace control decks or miracles is the premier form of our disruption our deck plays that also hits for two ... secondly our deck has overwhelmingly positive match-ups against the two main decks in the format that run Griselbrand as well (reanimator/sneak attack). SOL may stop griseldaddy... but so does karakas and revoker... which our deck already runs. A griselbrand will almost never stay on the field against DNt, or any legendary creature for the most part from those combo decks.

FYI... the opponent can still cast there ponder under sol... they just can't draw a card. they still get to psuedo sensei's divining top and set up their next turn or shuffle chaff away.

p.s. cut the chrome mox. granted a turn one thalia, stoneforge mystic, or vial plus mom sounds awesome... it is card disavantage and a single one of will screw u up more then help you. our deck lacks all forms of card selection and card draw outside of horizon's canopy because we rely on creating a form of virtual card advatnage by preventing opponents from playing their spells. Often times playing DNT you will have your opponent with a fist full of cards while your sitting their hellbent with a thalia on board and a bunch of lands and ports and cheating things in with a vial. this is what the deck does. chrome mox doesn't help that plan.

[The Atog Lord]

I had never played Death and Taxes in Legacy before yesterday. It had always been a deck I never paid much attention to, and I wasn't keen to play Legacy without Brainstorm or Blood Moon. But, I recently started playing the Modern Green/White deck that took the Bazaar of Moxen. The deck is impressive, and it's revealed much to me regarding how this deck works. It doesn't have the disruptive elements of some other decks in Legacy, nor does it have the clock of some other decks. But it combines the two fairly well.

I played D+T in a 10-person Legacy tournament yesterday. I won, going 6-0 in matches. I figured that I would share my thoughts on the deck, having played exactly six tournament rounds with it.

The comparison between D+T and RUG is interesting. They're both decks keen to put a game away with attackers while collapsing an opponent's deck. RUG tries to stall an opponent's mana base while using counters to hit specific spells that the opponent casts. D+T is advancing its board, putting its threats on the table while shutting down more and more of the opponent's deck. RUG is more stack-based while D+T is more focused on the board. Brainstorm is unfairly broken, but then, so is Aether Vial.

I played 25 land, and if anything, a 16th would have been nice. I played 4 Arbiters, leading me to play 3 Ghost Quarters. The synergy with Arbiter and Ghost Quarter is something potent in the Modern adaptation, and has translated reasonably well to Legacy. The fact that Ghost Quarter is a full Strip Mine against not a few decks is a strong argument in favor of the card. Another aspect of playing so many land is that you want to be able to destroy most lands with Armageddon or Cataclysm, and continue to make your land drops. Since so many of the lands in the deck do things other than tap for mana, it becomes difficult to flood out.

Which takes me to Cataclysm. The card is the bee's knees in my limited experience. One of the main problems with RUG is that it isn't especially good at clawing its way out of an unfavorable position should the opponent resolve something scary. Sure, RUG can keep the opponent down fairly well; but once something goes wrong, its only recourse is to attempt to burn out the opponent. D+T, however, has Cataclysm. This card gets rid of Planeswalkers, and reduces the opponent's board to something manageable. The opponent is often forced to overextend to handle D+T's threats; Cataclysm punishes this. It was an all-star all day for me.

Vial is amazing, and Mother of Runes is good. I'd really like another good one-drop in the deck, though. Something like a White noble hierarch. I really dislike having to pass the turn with an untapped Plains with this deck.

Alright, those are some insights from my first time playing this deck. It's much better in practice than it looks on paper.

[HammafistRoob]

What? Rich Shay without Brainstorm is like toast without butter. I'm confused.

On a more serious note, I'm also intrigued by the Arbiter + Ghost Quarter tech. My only question is whether Arbiter is better than Mindcensor, but I would think he's not.

[The Atog Lord]

I ran 2 Mindcensors and 4 Arbiters. It worked out pretty well, and Ghost Quarter was a pretty reasonable card. I only ran the 2 Mindcensors as 3-drops. Running almost all 2-drops let Viable be more effective as it didn't need to ramp up to 3. I do wish the deck had a Mana Elf, of course.

[Said-In-Contest]

The only problem with forums is that when someone makes an interesting post (see my post in the previous page which can be a start to help players to learn how to play this deck and be a good opportunity to discuss about sideboarding and different point of views) people simply doesn't care and indeed they reply to an absur post (see the one below mine) which is totally useless.
I don't want to start a flame or similar, but just to point out this: which is the point of writing tons of post which says nothing new/usefull, but not replying to those posts which can actually get a good discussion started?
I mean, 182 pages of primer, and yet how to sideboard CORRECTLY seems something people don't mind talk about. Honestly, once you chose your MD build, i think there is nothing left to say about a deck so well tuned like this. On the other hand, since at least half of the game of a tournament are POST BOARD gamese, i thought that it would be good to talk about that.
Maybe i'm the only one that finds really challenging to side in best way with this deck, taking care not to disrupt any sinergies ecc...if everyone is already so good that never needs to think about sideboarding, then i apologize. But if you think that maybe this topic can be interesting, then feel free to discuss with me.
Thank you!

[The Atog Lord]

Dear Said-In-Contest,

Hello and welcome to The Internet. I'm entirely convinced that your parents will smile and nod in response to whatever clever and exciting thing you happen to write. Perhaps your teacher will give you a nice big red Check Mark, whatever you happen to hand in. Sad to say, we here on the Internet are not nearly so eager to laud you. Please allow me to comment on your post.

"makes an interesting post"
If your post were interesting, people would have responded. That is basically the definition of interesting.

"help players to learn how to play this deck"
I learned a lot from insightful commentary such as, ":(((((((((((."

"people simply doesn't care"
If you want people to respond to your posts, then you should write posts that people will find interesting enough to respond to.

"which is totally useless"
Perhaps you don't much care for the idea of running a single Chrome Mox. But that doesn't make this fellow's post useless. Discussion and dialogue are the goals here.

"which is the point of writing tons of post which says nothing new/usefull, but not replying to those posts which can actually get a good discussion started?"
Has it occurred to you that perhaps everyone reading these forums doesn't think that your post was good enough to respond do? Perhaps, these Internet denizens thought that the post after yours was actually better than your post. Maybe the point is that you actually can't tell which posts will start a good discussion, and which cards will say nothing useful.

"if everyone is already so good that never needs to think about sideboarding, then i apologize."
Maybe. Personally, I wouldn't take sideboarding advice from someone who can't be bothered to spell "sinergies."

Again, welcome to the Internet. I hope you'll enjoy your stay.

[from Cairo]

[Sideboard suggestions for common matches based on list]

LANDS 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
12 Plains
3 Karakas

CREATURES 26
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Flickerwisp
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mirran Crusader


4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte


SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Path to Exile / Sunlance
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari


IMO

Miracles: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Cataclysm
Team America: -4 Phyrexian Revoker, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +3 Rest in Peace. +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Path to Exile
Death & Taxes (Mirror): -4 Thalia, -1 Spirit of the Labrynth; +1 Manriki-Gusari, +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Path to Exile/Ratchet Bomb
Deathblade: -3 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Manriki-Gusari
Sneak And Show: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Brimaz, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle
Patriot: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Phyrexian Revoker;+1 Manriki Gusari, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb
Elves: -3 Flickerwisp, -1 Brimaz, -1 Thalia; +1 Path to Exile/Sunlance, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Pithing Needle
Painter: -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Brimaz, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb

[Jungian Thing]

Good on Atog and Said In Contest. Unique perspectives! Bravo!!

What I'm finding sad about DnT atm is the view that it is a fixed or "standardised list", it's a meta deck. It's supposed to flex and adjust to meet meta and play styles. Now about all you can discuss is which of the 4 cards in the sideboard you are choosing to go with... or the last SCG tournament result or nothing at all.

I liked it more when you could brew and have a discussion. Ghost Quarter, leonin arbiter, SoTL, I'm putting them in. I have been running SoLaS in the SB because of all the mirror matches, so many mirror matches!!! I saw a list with Exalted Angel on Mtgo the other night, it did some solid work.

[Lemnear]

Good on Atog and Said In Contest. Unique perspectives! Bravo!!

What I'm finding sad about DnT atm is the view that it is a fixed or "standardised list", it's a meta deck. It's supposed to flex and adjust to meet meta and play styles. Now about all you can discuss is which of the 4 cards in the sideboard you are choosing to go with... or the last SCG tournament result or nothing at all.

I liked it more when you could brew and have a discussion. Ghost Quarter, leonin arbiter, SoTL, I'm putting them in. I have been running SoLaS in the SB because of all the mirror matches, so many mirror matches!!! I saw a list with Exalted Angel on Mtgo the other night, it did some solid work.

Every time I read something about "meta adjustments" it's followed by mentioning subpar pet-cards like SotL. The sheer amount of possible hatebears looks like the biggest problem of D&T as of late as it provokes dicsussion about fancy, cute stuff instead of working on issues within the metagame.

[Jungian Thing]

And yet, so called subpar cards are being played and posting results... In fact it is only by playing cards outside the norm that the deck has evolved. It is the pioneers, the pet card players, the radical DnT players that are the reason a "standardised" list can even be talked about.

[Barbed Blightning]

Good on Atog and Said In Contest. Unique perspectives! Bravo!!

What I'm finding sad about DnT atm is the view that it is a fixed or "standardised list", it's a meta deck. It's supposed to flex and adjust to meet meta and play styles. Now about all you can discuss is which of the 4 cards in the sideboard you are choosing to go with... or the last SCG tournament result or nothing at all.

I liked it more when you could brew and have a discussion. Ghost Quarter, leonin arbiter, SoTL, I'm putting them in. I have been running SoLaS in the SB because of all the mirror matches, so many mirror matches!!! I saw a list with Exalted Angel on Mtgo the other night, it did some solid work.

I don't disagree with the idea of breaking free from locked-in 60s (I believe this is what has led to the demise of RUG--not enough flexibility).

However, cards that are full playsets in decks tend to have a reasoning behind them--we wouldn't, for example, play fewer than four STP (even in favor of Path to Exile) because the card has myriad uses. Similarly, Thalia is an automatic four of because she excels in most matchups where Spirit is really only good against 3 or so cards in the entirety of the metagame.

I also concur with Lemnear's sentiment: D&T has access to a dearth of hatebears; we used to jam Jotun Grunt or Samurai of the Pale Curtain because there was a severe lack of better options; not anymore. Now, instead, we must be careful to choose the proper bears for our deck, not merely the most powerful against X strategy/card/etc.


(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Megadeus]

For one, I don't think there has really been a demiseofRUG. It isn't the best deck anymore, but that's what happens when the meta shifts. It certainly isn't a "standardized 60" that has made it have slightly worse results than in the past. As for the sheer amount of bears, I agree. It is to a point now where the sheer amount of specific hate cards this deck can run makes people run sub optimal cards.

[Barook]

Let me ask you a question: Does D&T really struggle in the current meta?

TNN is a huge problem, but can be raced if you have enough flyers. There's also Council's Judgement that might help in that regard. Elves is just auto-loss. Jund is pretty bad. Storm combo depends on the dice roll. That's about it.

The Ghost Quarter build is cute, and while I can see it being effective in the right meta, I personally don't like it since the normal D&T lists fit my playstyle better because it has more high-impact cards.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but people should keep in mind that a good chunk of the list is set in stone for a good reason.

[raikenxy]

Let me ask you a question: Does D&T really struggle in the current meta?

TNN is a huge problem, but can be raced if you have enough flyers. There's also Council's Judgement that might help in that regard. Elves is just auto-loss. Jund is pretty bad. Storm combo depends on the dice roll. That's about it.

The Ghost Quarter build is cute, and while I can see it being effective in the right meta, I personally don't like it since the normal D&T lists fit my playstyle better because it has more high-impact cards.

There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but people should keep in mind that a good chunk of the list is set in stone for a good reason.


i would agree on most of those regards. i would say post board elves is actually not miserable, def not favorable but not miserable at all. same with jund.

in regards to the arbiter builds... i used to champion arbiter fervently back in the day. making room for three in the main deck at the expense of the flyers. honestly from my experience arbiter competes with the two drop way to much with thalia. arbiter requires an intense devotion of the land hate to become successful and doesn't provide pseudo protection for himself like thalia does in the form of taxing swords to plowshares or abrupt decay or disfigure or whatever kill spell is being aimed at them... as these creatures are too impacting on the game state to allow to live. my personal preference has lead me to thalia, as she just always lands down acting as a pseudo porting effect. arbiter is powerful, but can lead to a blowout on your end if they have nonfetch lands in their hand or cantrips to find additional lands. and not to mention the intense decrease in power level you get from having to drop stoneforge mystics to play arbiter. batterskull and equipment are the muscles of the deck, neutering them through arbiter never fit my taste.

[The Atog Lord]

I'd like to share my list that I played to a 6-0 finish in a 10-person event. The list isn't perfect; I'd never played this deck before. I wanted to focus on mana-denial, while still running the full set of Stoneforge Mystics. The lack of synergy between the two wasn't much of an issue.

// Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Serra Avenger

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

// Lands (25 of them)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
3 Ghost Quarter
10 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy


SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Mother of Runes
SB: 2 Mirran Crusader
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Armageddon
SB: 1 Unexpectedly Absent
SB: 2 Holy Light
SB: 1 Luminarch Ascension

[Said-In-Contest]

IMO

Miracles: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Cataclysm
Team America: -4 Phyrexian Revoker, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +3 Rest in Peace. +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Path to Exile
Death & Taxes (Mirror): -4 Thalia, -1 Spirit of the Labrynth; +1 Manriki-Gusari, +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Path to Exile/Ratchet Bomb
Deathblade: -3 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Manriki-Gusari
Sneak And Show: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Brimaz, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle
Patriot: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Phyrexian Revoker;+1 Manriki Gusari, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb
Elves: -3 Flickerwisp, -1 Brimaz, -1 Thalia; +1 Path to Exile/Sunlance, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Pithing Needle
Painter: -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Brimaz, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb

First of all, really thank you for your post!
Just a few questions and doubts I have:

1) VS MIRACLE

Is it really correct to board out all 4 Swords to Plowshares?
I mean, they will board in 1-2 Sulfur Elemental which is a complete blow out considering that we would have no removal left!!
Is it a risck we are obliged/willing to take, or can a better decision be made?
Personally I'm trying something like this

-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Flickerwisp
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

+2 Cataclysm
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 O Ring

Still, I don't like the canoeist too much in this match up...why do you board it in?

2) VS TEAM AMERICA

Same plan I have. But people were saying that revoker on shaman combined with heavy land denial is very effective. Also revoker on Lilliana is not so bad. Do everybody board them out all 4? And are 6 cards necessary?

3) VS DEATHBLADE

Just a little question: is rip necessary? I mean it's good vs Deathrite, decent vs snapcaster but they have just 2 of them.
Are we willing to cut 3 Swords to Plowshares to make ro for rip? Or can we just leave 2 Plow in to answer Deathrite/Stoneforge/Cliques or dark confidants?

Let me know about your personal experiences and/or comments about my "doubts"
Thank you very much for your help!!

[Megadeus]

I haven't seen Miracles play Sulfur Elemental in awhile. Maybe where you are they play it, but I think the "standard" list that you will come across doesnt play them.

[Lemnear]

And yet, so called subpar cards are being played and posting results... In fact it is only by playing cards outside the norm that the deck has evolved. It is the pioneers, the pet card players, the radical DnT players that are the reason a "standardised" list can even be talked about.

Oh how I loath the empty sentence of "posting results" without backing it up. Where are all those top placing Spirit of the Labyrinth or Leonin Arbiter builds which fail to adress their own purpose by being unable to catch the early brainstorms and fetches because of their cost or turn themselves into hilarious bad cards if Arbiter gets hit by a Swords to Plowshares with Ghost Quarter on the stack? Legacy is no place for cute interactions. It leaves me speachless why people complain about TNN and Delver but refuse to run a propper number of Serra Avenger which, with equipment and/or Mother of Runes, just laughts at both blue creatures. I see Thalias, SFM's and Avengers cut to squeeze in a bunch of situational hatebears and just wonder why

[Rogan]

Speaking of Council’s Judgment, what is everyone's gut reaction? Good 1 or 2 of sideboard tech?

[Lemnear]

Speaking of Council’s Judgment, what is everyone's gut reaction? Good 1 or 2 of sideboard tech?

A 3cc card sorcery spot removal in a deck with Thalia, Wastelands and Port? I'm sure ignoring TNN and going for the damage race with Avenger + Equipment is a much better idea

[bakofried]

It's a legitimate question - though it's not a perfect comparison, Maverick runs GSZ, Sylvan, equipment etc alongside Thalia (imperfect comparison because Mav has manadorks). If it's played, it'd likely kick O-Ring out, as it's more versatile, even if you can't Show it in. I think as a two-of in the board it'd be fine.

[Barbed Blightning]

It's a legitimate question - though it's not a perfect comparison, Maverick runs GSZ, Sylvan, equipment etc alongside Thalia (imperfect comparison because Mav has manadorks). If it's played, it'd likely kick O-Ring out, as it's more versatile, even if you can't Show it in. I think as a two-of in the board it'd be fine.

The difference lies in Port and that Mav has mana acceleration in Noble, DRS, Knight and GSZ > Dryad. But especially Port.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[mrjumbo03]

Regarding Council's Judgement, I think 1 will definitely come in for the O-Ring in the side, if you're running it. Outside the Show and Tell interaction, it's better in every way, specially in these days of Abrupt Decay and TNN. The second will be contesting the additional removal slot (Sunlance/Celestial Flare), the substitution is not as clear cut like the last one, but I'd probably do it too.

[Finn]

Gosh, Jumbo. I was thinking about having it in addition to a single Oblivion Ring. I can't see cutting The One Ring (huzzaah!) as long as Show and Tell is still floating about and I have Enlightened Tutor.

A few details...


-Elves is not unwinnable postboard game 2. But then you are on the draw game 3, where it just about is unwinnable. The trick is to to win game 1, which, well, ya know...
-I think I am satisfied with the quasi-solutions we have for TNN. The fact that Council's Judgement does not hit lands makes me frown. But, it does kill Progenitus, which is actually kinda pertinent against Elves.
-I personally think that going without Flickerwisp is a mistake. And all of these experimental lists cut Flickerwisp, so call me a traditionalist. But Flickerwisp is so important for the proper functioning of this deck in games where plan A does not do the trick. Considering that our Plan A is a Swiss cheese sorta plan, this happens regularly. It's great to have all of these fun ways of preventing your opponent from playing Magic, but from a perspective of Play the Power, Arbiter plus ghost Quarter is not as good as Wasteland and whatever you took out for Arbiters.
-I think a single Ghost Quarter is a very interesting idea. But you don't need the Arbiters. As with all things D+T, the key is in the execution and knowledge of your opponent's deck. Most opponents are going to fetch up their basics as soon as they know what you are playing. Any deck with three colors will only have a few of these. Know how many they have. Once they are out, use GQ to take out your favorite basic. But you can't let them see your GQ ahead of time or the jig is up.
-and, because I am displaying my socially inept side: Dearth means "not enough", the opposite of what someone posted a bit back.

[Barbed Blightning]

Gosh, Jumbo. I was thinking about having it in addition to a single Oblivion Ring. I can't see cutting The One Ring (huzzaah!) as long as Show and Tell is still floating about and I have Enlightened Tutor.

A few details...


-Elves is not unwinnable postboard game 2. But then you are on the draw game 3, where it just about is unwinnable. The trick is to to win game 1, which, well, ya know...
-I think I am satisfied with the quasi-solutions we have for TNN. The fact that Council's Judgement does not hit lands makes me frown. But, it does kill Progenitus, which is actually kinda pertinent against Elves.
-I personally think that going without Flickerwisp is a mistake. And all of these experimental lists cut Flickerwisp, so call me a traditionalist. But Flickerwisp is so important for the proper functioning of this deck in games where plan A does not do the trick. Considering that our Plan A is a Swiss cheese sorta plan, this happens regularly. It's great to have all of these fun ways of preventing your opponent from playing Magic, but from a perspective of Play the Power, Arbiter plus ghost Quarter is not as good as Wasteland and whatever you took out for Arbiters.
-I think a single Ghost Quarter is a very interesting idea. But you don't need the Arbiters. As with all things D+T, the key is in the execution and knowledge of your opponent's deck. Most opponents are going to fetch up their basics as soon as they know what you are playing. Any deck with three colors will only have a few of these. Know how many they have. Once they are out, use GQ to take out your favorite basic. But you can't let them see your GQ ahead of time or the jig is up.
-and, because I am displaying my socially inept side: Dearth means "not enough", the opposite of what someone posted a bit back.

So it does. What word was I thinking of, then? :/

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Tormod]

I know Finn will kick me for saying this, but giving the amount of Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Nights I've been seeing, and the success I've been having with Modern Hate bears.

I've been considering dropping Flickerwisp for Leonin Arbiter. In initial testing its been very oppressive against many decks and can be downright crushing turn 2 when your opponent is dropping fetches and can't pay to search. One interaction that been awesome is playing Phyrexian Revoker naming your own Leonin Arbiter to remove the option to search as the game gets later.

It also lets you play with Vial on 2, as Flickewisp is the only creature with 3 cast without flash. (assuming 0 Brimaz and Mirran Crusader)

[Barbed Blightning]

I know Finn will kick me for saying this, but giving the amount of Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Nights I've been seeing, and the success I've been having with Modern Hate bears.

I've been considering dropping Flickerwisp for Leonin Arbiter. In initial testing its been very oppressive against many decks and can be downright crushing turn 2 when your opponent is dropping fetches and can't pay to search. One interaction that been awesome is playing Phyrexian Revoker naming your own Leonin Arbiter to remove the option to search as the game gets later.

That's not how that works.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Tormod]

Isn't paying (2) an activated ability? :eyebrow:

[Barbed Blightning]

Isn't paying (2) an activated ability? :eyebrow:

It's a "special action." It functions more like a triggered ability than an activated one--crucially, the lack of a colon in the card text is what defines it.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Holly]

1/1/2011: Paying {2} to ignore Leonin Arbiter's effect is a special action. Any player may take this special action any time he or she has priority. It doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.

[Tormod]

That's a shame. I'm going to have some explaining to do with my testing partner lol.

Thanks fellas!

[Lemnear]

I know Finn will kick me for saying this, but giving the amount of Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Nights I've been seeing, and the success I've been having with Modern Hate bears.

I've been considering dropping Flickerwisp for Leonin Arbiter. In initial testing its been very oppressive against many decks and can be downright crushing turn 2 when your opponent is dropping fetches and can't pay to search. One interaction that been awesome is playing Phyrexian Revoker naming your own Leonin Arbiter to remove the option to search as the game gets later.

It also lets you play with Vial on 2, as Flickewisp is the only creature with 3 cast without flash. (assuming 0 Brimaz and Mirran Crusader)

The point is that your opponent can at least fetch for his first land (possibly the second as well) before Arbiter comes down. I can imagine that this puts a big question mark behind the idea, if you have a lot of decks in the metagame that operate smooth on 2 lands. :/

I'm sure, if you want to seriously try the Arbiter-idea, you might want to replace the ports with Ghost Quarters to full profit from the Leonin without turning your manabase into a total desaster.

[Tormod]

The point is that your opponent can at least fetch for his first land (possibly the second as well) before Arbiter comes down. I can imagine that this puts a big question mark behind the idea, if you have a lot of decks in the metagame that operate smooth on 2 lands. :/

I'm sure, if you want to seriously try the Arbiter-idea, you might want to replace the ports with Ghost Quarters to full profit from the Leonin without turning your manabase into a total desaster.

What you're missing is that even if your opponent is paying mana to search, he's not casting spells. I would run 1-3 Ghost Quarters in addition to wasteland and ports.
Functionally Arbiter is acting as 2 ports every time your opponent pays to search.

It really complements the tax plan.

[Finn]

You gotta be careful with this direction. Are you going to have 26 lands then? You can't actually get rid of any Ports or Wastelands. And you are crazy to cut the white count below, gee 14 if you are feeling lucky. 13 if you have fewer than 3 Karakas. But then you are dipping into the efficacy of the deck in a variety of ways to support the "sometimes tech" of Arbiters.

I'm not saying it is bad. I'm saying it is probably bad. It just seems to me that cards which are independently good (Port, Flickerwisp) are a better bet than cards which are possibly back breaking, but possibly dead. If it is not a clear upgrade AND requires that we lose something somewhere else, I am dubious to it.

[Tormod]

I get that with new tech, it feels like its pulling teeth on the tradition.

But really, i recommend throw 4 in your deck and seeing how it goes before getting too caught up in the theory crafting.

[Barook]

A 3cc card sorcery spot removal in a deck with Thalia, Wastelands and Port? I'm sure ignoring TNN and going for the damage race with Avenger + Equipment is a much better idea.
You can't always assemble a clock which is fast enough to race TNN, especially when they can jam down equipment of their own or double TNN. I'm not saying that Judgement is the ideal solution to TNN, but at the very least, it deserves testing since it looks alot better than other situational crap we have to run to fight off TNN.


I get that with new tech, it feels like its pulling teeth on the tradition.

But really, i recommend throw 4 in your deck and seeing how it goes before getting too caught up in the theory crafting.
What I dislike about Arbiter, aside from clashing with the SFM plan, is the lack of a combat-relevant body. Mom isn't about attacking and we already have Revoker who can't go into the red zone profitably. Everything else brings evasion or other combat-relevant stats. Spirit of the Labyrinth suffers from the same problem. That's something that already came up multiple time for me when testing the BoM list.

From the people running an Arbiter/Mindcensor/Ghost Quarter build, I'd really like to hear about your thoughts of running ~ 2 CoW somewhere in the 75. 4 Wasteland/4 Ghost Quarter/2 Horizon Canopy sounds like an interesting option to go along with it.

[MrGlantz]

I've played mono w hatebears in vintage with some success (few top8s here and there and a few top4s) and that is a deck that heavily relies on arbiter as a strong hate bear. That's about all of my experience with arbiter, and while it's a different format I can see parallels might apply to legacy. But again take what I say with a grain of salt because I haven't done extensive testing in legacy with it.

It's undoubtable that when you have Leonin Arbiter and Spirit of the Labyrinth together, paired with ghost quarters and wastes. There's very little any deck can do about it. In general a blue deck gets around the land destruction and taxation by drawing out of it. Spirit shuts this down and it's awesome. It definitely gives you a powerful feeling when it's working. In general, I'm unsure if you can get to that point consistently in Legacy. In vintage, just an arbiter is strong by itself because so many of the blue decks rely on tutoring, Merchant Scroll, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, etc. In Legacy I think that the main value you get out of arbiter is shutting down stoneforge mystics, and fetch lands. There's a lot less inherent value off of that.

Plus Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty meh in legacy by itself, as others who have tested it extensively I'm sure will tell you.

In Vintage, ghost quarter by itself isn't terrible. Even without an arbiter, it can often be a strip mine because people are greedy. It also has interesting applications with cards like Mystical tutor and Vampiric Tutor, because giving them the shuffle can mess with their tutor effect. In Legacy, while mana bases can be super greedy, you're never getting that benefit of messing with tutors. In fact, giving them a free shuffle effect can be awful if they have a brainstorm. I can only imagine how shitty it must be to have someone brainstorm in response to your ghost quarter. Ghost Quarter is just considerably weaker in Legacy than it is in Vintage, and it's not even that strong in Vintage to begin with.

I think going this route could work for people who aren't quite prepared for it, or have never seen it before. Still I think in general more traditional Death N Taxes decks have more raw power to them.

[Lemnear]

You can't always assemble a clock which is fast enough to race TNN, especially when they can jam down equipment of their own or double TNN. I'm not saying that Judgement is the ideal solution to TNN, but at the very least, it deserves testing since it looks alot better than other situational crap we have to run to fight off TNN.

What I dislike about Arbiter, aside from clashing with the SFM plan, is the lack of a combat-relevant body. Mom isn't about attacking and we already have Revoker who can't go into the red zone profitably. Everything else brings evasion or other combat-relevant stats. Spirit of the Labyrinth suffers from the same problem. That's something that already came up multiple time for me when testing the BoM list.

It's funny that you mention TNN as a problem and the fact that some lists have trouble pushing into the red zone, but don't see that both issues can simply be adressed by running more evasive beaters. There is a point in the game at which 2/1's without evasion can't push through a Tarmogoyf, SFM or TNN and I feel that only having the natural draw phase and SFM + StoP as solutions (Flickerwisp for a single round too) is not enough without Library manipulation and the whole aggro aspect quickly going down the drain at times if you are required to find, hardcast and equip a Sword of X & Y to push one of your creatures to actual battle-stats, dragging out the game and making your own gameplan worse in the process because you can not close out games

[Barook]

It's funny that you mention TNN as a problem and the fact that some lists have trouble pushing into the red zone, but don't see that both issues can simply be adressed by running more evasive beaters. There is a point in the game at which 2/1's without evasion can't push through a Tarmogoyf, SFM or TNN and I feel that only having the natural draw phase and SFM + StoP as solutions (Flickerwisp for a single round too) is not enough without Library manipulation and the whole aggro aspect quickly going down the drain at times if you are required to find, hardcast and equip a Sword of X & Y to push one of your creatures to actual battle-stats, dragging out the game and making your own gameplan worse in the process because you can not close out games
I already run 4 Flickerwisp (evasive + great utility) and 3 Serra Avengers alongside 3 Mirran Crusaders. I dislike a 4th Avenger since it increases the chance of clogging up your hand without Vial. Aven Mindcensor is by far the weakest option you can run and thus, is a no-go as well. Crusader is great in the current, BUG-infested metagame and imho a better choice than Brimaz. Crusader is also evasive against enemy Goyfs and Batterskull.

Just because you can run more flyers doesn't mean you should, especially when they're slow and weak to -1/-1 effects like Mindcensor.

[Tormod]

This is a list that has been making the rounds on MTGO as mentioned here: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/june-2014-legacy-metagame-analysis/

Death and Taxes
Wenzel Krautmann

Lands
9 x Plains
4 x Rishadan Port
4 x Ghost Quarter
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Flagstones of Trokair
4 x Wasteland
3 x Karakas

Creatures
4 x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
4 x Leonin Arbiter
2 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Aven Mindcensor
3 x Mother of Runes
2 x Mangara of Corondor

Noncreature Spells
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
4 x AEther Vial
3 x Swords to Plowshares

Sideboard
2 x Rest in Peace
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Batterskull
2 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Veteran Armorer
1 x Mother of Runes
1 x Swords to Plowshares

Discussions, Thoughts?

[Lemnear]

26 lands while cutting threats ... Sounds like losing to the first Delver dropped for the sake of Mindscensor + Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Is there a metagame in which you just want to just lose game 1 to "the very rare" Delver-decks?

[HammafistRoob]

I see 9 ways to interact with a Delver, I mean 7 turns is a lot.

[Barbed Blightning]

I see 9 ways to interact with a Delver, I mean 7 turns is a lot.

So Delver of Secrets is a Legendary creature? Rare it is for a Delver deck not to have some more dudes/Delvers/reach (be it Bolt or DRS).

I'm with Lemnear. This list is a train wreck.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Lemnear]

I see 9 ways to interact with a Delver, I mean 7 turns is a lot.

I mean, we can take a closer look and sure see the 3 Swords, 2 SFM into xyz, 2 Mindscensors for blocking, etc. but for my taste the deck has to pass the SFM/Delver/Tarmogoyf-test to be compeditive as an aggro-subtype (in a prison-shell, of course) and I just can't see more than a white land-destruction attempt aiming at greedy manabases and few to zero basics in opponents deck to just demolish slow control decks with an actual regular D&T approach in the side. As mentioned before: I'm not sure a metagame with just a few SFM/Delver/Tarmogoyf but a whole lot of greedy 3c/4c control exists

[The Atog Lord]

"I'm not sure a metagame with just a few SFM/Delver/Tarmogoyf but a whole lot of greedy 3c/4c control exists"

How best to construct this sort of deck hinges fundamentally on this question. Against a Delver deck, you would do well to include a full set of Swords, and also something like 3 copies of Path to Exile. After all, Path has no drawback against Delver decks. Likewise, Ghost Quarter is Just Another Strip Mine against most Delver decks.

Some cards -- Thalia, Mother of Runes, SFM, and even Arbiter -- have reasonable application against both Delver decks and slower decks. For the most part, though, how best to configure this really does depend on what metagame you are expecting.

[Tormod]

I ran the list posted from Channel Fireball last night at my local Legacy.

Here are my notes:

Spirit of the Lab: Was very good. As a 3/1 his damage clock was very good. Ported an opponents blue source on upkeep, he brainstorm in response. vialed: SoL allows him to draw one and forces him to put 2 back and he skips drawing a card on his draw step. Against Shardless, I play SoL the turn before the last counter comes off ancestral visions.

Leonin Arbiter: This guy was pretty good, but had some mixed feeling about him late game. He's was very strong, often setting my opponents back 2 turns. I won games on the play just by running him out turn 2 because my opponent kept a hand full of fetches. He felt like a bad top deck late game.

Ghost Quarter: Having 8 wastelands in addition to 4 ports was excessive. Vs the BUG color opponents GQ was functionally the same as a wasteland. I wouldn't run 4 going forward, but I've kept 2.

Veteran Armorer: This guy is a champ post board, and i would consider running 2 just to see him more often. His CC is low enough that he can be vialed in early enough. He beats Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Sulfur Elemental, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague. He was bad against Massacre.

The biggest issue of the deck was the lack of evasion. The deck had all the control in the world. SoL was the best beater in the deck, but it needs to be followed up with other (3 power) threats.

[MrShine]

I've played around with the Arbiter / Ghost Quarter idea a bit now too so I'll share some thoughts. I played a list with 4 Arbiter, 3 GQ, 2 Mindcensor and the 4th STP, 2 Avenger , and a 3rd SFM over the 4 Spirits.

Ghost Quarter - Barely has any drawback at all, it's not even necessary to have Arbiter out against a lot of decks. All the Delver decks & Shardless are basically cold to it, and even if they bring out a basic (Shardless runs a couple) you can just nuke that if the time is right. It is worth noting that it actually becomes feasible to cut Miracles off W completely by GQ-ing their basic plains once you see it; they only run 2, so once one is gone locking them off Entreat suddenly isn't so hard. However, you need the Arbiter to stop / tax their fetches too so they don't just crack for Tundra when they are ready for the Entreat.

Leonin Arbiter - Not a bad little dude, actually pretty great vs the Delver decks as they are so light on land. Not as effective vs Miracles because they can just crack and pay EOT. 2/2 is slightly underwhelming, but at least its not x/1.

Mindcensor - Hated it (surprise surprise...). Unnecessary for land-pressure as it just comes down wayyy too late. I'd rather have 3 Mangara to actually crush their manabase over the long game.

It seems to me that the list is indeed a stab at Anti-Miracles.dec (although I'd be playing Teeg if I really wanted to beat them every game). I have no idea how he had such success with only 3 STP. Path out of the board, as I have been saying for a while, is insane vs Delver (and most Goyf decks) with or without Arbiters. Spirit seems like it would be nice vs Miracles, but there isn't enough of it in my meta to skew that heavily on what we can all say is a mediocre dude otherwise.

Moving forward, I'm actually keeping 2 of the GQs in the main, even without Arbiter. Moar wasteland is just awesome, especially when people fetch out their basics first against us anyway ;)

[cursecatcher]

Hey all, I managed to qualify for the SCG Invy next weekend and am trying to figure out my D&T list. I am not playing the ghost quarter package because I don't have any experience with it yet, and don't like overhauling right before a big event.

For reference my current list is still this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65916

I am thinking about switching that 3rd Serra Avenger to either a Council's Judgment or Spirit of the Labyrinth. I'm thinking the Invitational is probably the best event possible for Spirit (lots of Brainstorm decks), though I still haven't been overly impressed with the card in the few local events I've tried it out. As for Council's, it seems great against all the fair decks, but might be too much of a liability against unfair matchups (in addition to the 4 Swords main).

At the least, I am thinking to change the sideboard Holy Light and Celestial Flares into Council's Judgments (better answers to TNN). I could possibly also shave down to 1 Oblivion Ring after making this switch? That could free up a slot for another Wilt Leaf Liege or something.

Any feedback on my list as I prepare for this event would be amazing as I've been too busy lately to test many games with these new/fairly new cards.

[Finn]

Hey all, I managed to qualify for the SCG Invy next weekend and am trying to figure out my D&T list. I am not playing the ghost quarter package because I don't have any experience with it yet, and don't like overhauling right before a big event.

For reference my current list is still this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65916

I am thinking about switching that 3rd Serra Avenger to either a Council's Judgment or Spirit of the Labyrinth. I'm thinking the Invitational is probably the best event possible for Spirit (lots of Brainstorm decks), though I still haven't been overly impressed with the card in the few local events I've tried it out. As for Council's, it seems great against all the fair decks, but might be too much of a liability against unfair matchups (in addition to the 4 Swords main).

At the least, I am thinking to change the sideboard Holy Light and Celestial Flares into Council's Judgments (better answers to TNN). I could possibly also shave down to 1 Oblivion Ring after making this switch? That could free up a slot for another Wilt Leaf Liege or something.

Any feedback on my list as I prepare for this event would be amazing as I've been too busy lately to test many games with these new/fairly new cards.
I can't see any possible reason to have more than 1 Oblivion Ring any more. Since you have the Tutors, 1 Ring in the SB makes sense, and I think I like the idea of a Spirit of the Lab somewhere in the 75 too, though I prefer the SB for this card also. I think I like Council's Judgement, so I might go 1 in the main and 1 or 2 in the board if you already got them. It gets complicated, but I would cut cataclysm if you are including a Spirit or two. Spirits are actually pretty good against Miracles.

[Tormod]

I picked up 2 Councils Judgement. Having trouble deciding on numbers. I think one main deck is correct and 1 SB... Thoughts? I love that this can hit a batterskull and your opponent can't bounce in response your vote.

[Barook]

Hey all, I managed to qualify for the SCG Invy next weekend and am trying to figure out my D&T list. I am not playing the ghost quarter package because I don't have any experience with it yet, and don't like overhauling right before a big event.

For reference my current list is still this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=65916

I am thinking about switching that 3rd Serra Avenger to either a Council's Judgment or Spirit of the Labyrinth. I'm thinking the Invitational is probably the best event possible for Spirit (lots of Brainstorm decks), though I still haven't been overly impressed with the card in the few local events I've tried it out. As for Council's, it seems great against all the fair decks, but might be too much of a liability against unfair matchups (in addition to the 4 Swords main).

At the least, I am thinking to change the sideboard Holy Light and Celestial Flares into Council's Judgments (better answers to TNN). I could possibly also shave down to 1 Oblivion Ring after making this switch? That could free up a slot for another Wilt Leaf Liege or something.

Any feedback on my list as I prepare for this event would be amazing as I've been too busy lately to test many games with these new/fairly new cards.
I'm not too sure about the MD Judgement. It looks like a solid removal spell on paper, but we have no data on it. I'm hesitant about including it to the MD until some playtesting is done.

I would definitely keep the 3rd Serra Avenger. Personally, I'm not a fan of Mindcensors since they're easily the weakest link in the deck. I'm running a 4th Flickerwisp instead (SO good) and a 3rd Crusader. He just hits like a truck with equipment and you must expect tons of BUG Delver (and Miracles, for the matter, since they're the two most-played decks in the current metagame) - and Crusader flat-out destroys BUG if they can't get TNN or Liliana online.

2 O-Rings are excessive, even 1 O-Ring is questionable now with Judgement. Are you really expecting that much Sneak & Show to warrant its inclusion? Yes, it's a popular Invitational choice because you can be drooling idiot with no format knowledge and still do well with it, but it's one of our best match-ups. I run the standard 3 Karakas, but neither Mangara nor O-Ring - and I still do extremely well against it, simply because we attack them from so many angles.

I would definitely cut the Holy Light and Celestial Flare for Judgements. Whether or not a 3rd copy is worth it is hard to say without data.

I also miss Pithing Needle in your board.

My list for reference (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/236384)

I'll definitely cut the two Cataclysms for Judgement once it's released. It was always an on/off card for me as it continues to fail to impress me - either the board state is unfavorable after nuking the board, I'm manascrewed or it eats a Force of Will. Chances are quite likely that I'm going to replace the Runed Halo with a 3rd Judgement if it performs well. The only weak spot my current build has is dealing with troublesome permanents permanently and Judgement closes this hole. Otherwise, I'm already extremely pleased with this build and don't see any reason to change things otherwise.

[Finn]

I picked up 2 Councils Judgement. Having trouble deciding on numbers. I think one main deck is correct and 1 SB... Thoughts? I love that this can hit a batterskull and your opponent can't bounce in response your vote.

Well yeah. It is one of the quasi-hidden effects of this card. Because it is actual spot removal that does not actually target - to my knowledge there has never been a card or a mechanic capable of this in the past - the opponent will have to use their Jitte counters, or activate Aether Vial, or unsummon their own Batterskull, or use Mom for protection before they know what you are aiming at.

[Souleater734]

Hey I'm relatively new to this deck and have been jamming games on cockatrice for the past week while I wait for the deck to arrive in the mail. Now I know none of these match ups are particularly common, besides the mirror but I've only played that once or twice, but I've been running into a lot of zoo and maverick. Basically, from my understanding thus far these matches basically come down to who gets jitte active first and every play from both sides has been trying to force through their jitte. Now I have yet to lose any of the matches against these opponents but it feels like I'm barely squeaking out wins each time. It's been annoying trying to win the equipment war against qasali pridemage decks without an active mom and revoker. I've added and manriki gusari to my sideboard recently which has helped some but these match ups feel extremely close every time, specifically maverick, though zoo seems to have a better lategame with knight of the reliquary and tarmogoyfs. I was wondering if anyone had some advice for these particular match ups, mainly because maverick and D&T are fairly popular at my lgs. (I'm talking about zoo decks that closely resemble maverick with wild nacatl btw).

[MrShine]

Hey I'm relatively new to this deck and have been jamming games on cockatrice for the past week while I wait for the deck to arrive in the mail. Now I know none of these match ups are particularly common, besides the mirror but I've only played that once or twice, but I've been running into a lot of zoo and maverick. Basically, from my understanding thus far these matches basically come down to who gets jitte active first and every play from both sides has been trying to force through their jitte. Now I have yet to lose any of the matches against these opponents but it feels like I'm barely squeaking out wins each time. It's been annoying trying to win the equipment war against qasali pridemage decks without an active mom and revoker. I've added and manriki gusari to my sideboard recently which has helped some but these match ups feel extremely close every time, specifically maverick, though zoo seems to have a better lategame with knight of the reliquary and tarmogoyfs. I was wondering if anyone had some advice for these particular match ups, mainly because maverick and D&T are fairly popular at my lgs. (I'm talking about zoo decks that closely resemble maverick with wild nacatl btw).

If you run Mirran Crusaders, they can be quite good, a lot of Maverick is green and the first strike blocks well when you're behind. He's also great when you start pushing him in with MoR; I find the Maverick match is often about unblockable damage spikes with Mother of Runes backup, preferably with Haste from Vial. Other than the all important Mother of Runes mirror (close 2nd to the Jitte Race), of course.

Flickerwisp is amazing for generating tempo in the dmg races too.

Running Sword of Light and Shadow can be good to give your guys pro-W; searchable with SFM obv and blanks their only removal colour. Or War and Peace for the true Zoo match; get that on a Crusader and there should be no way you can loose ;).

Pridemage is annoying and I'd always name with with Revoker, unless you are about to lose to Jitte or something.

Disenchants out of the sideboard are great; I run 2 now and they are awesome for the equipment mirrors. Celestial Flare is good too if you are running it, things can be very Voltron in the late game. And any more removal effects that you may be running; Path, O-Ring, our new shiny friend Council's Judgement... my preference is on Path since its a 1cmc removal that can hit Mother of Runes (which is a must-kill) T1. Its not like we're going to be locking much out with Thalia, anyway... She comes out for the most part, sometimes its nice to keep 1 for First Strike and Karakas blocking tricks.

[Souleater734]

Thanks, I run manriki-gusari for stuff like death/stoneblade but it's weaker against pridemage. I run sunlance in the board as a hedge against delver but path is probably better since delver decks don't run basics, so I can see that helping in the mu a lot. Generally I've been using flickerwisp on lands in conjunction with ports to try to keep them off knight of the reliquary mana. My equipment package is sword of fire/ice jitte batterskull and the manriki-gusari in the board but I might consider including light and shadow somewhere in the 75, thanks again for the advice.

[Tormod]

Dave Shiels playing on scg stream with ghost quarter

edit: he's made top 8

[MrShine]

Dave Shiels playing on scg stream with ghost quarter

edit: he's made top 8

... In the Sideboard, it seems.

Robert Sullivan also Top8'd with 2x Council's Judgment in the board.

Good weekend for the little white dudes.

[dcosiem]

if this post is a joke ... well played. if not... i think you need to jam a couple thousand more games with Death and Taxes. DnT is easily the most thoroughly vetted/optimized decks in the format. Only RUG Delver has a more standardized 60 in the format. Running two thalia's is a mistake... especially if your doing it to jam a bad card in spirit of the labyrinth into your main 60. You are correct in saying that this is a control deck... but even more so it is a THALIA deck, run four thalia's. If your running SOL to hose blue decks and griselbrand decks then you haven't really played with this deck that much at all. Thalia against all forms of blue decks whether they be any of the delver variants, jace control decks or miracles is the premier form of our disruption our deck plays that also hits for two ... secondly our deck has overwhelmingly positive match-ups against the two main decks in the format that run Griselbrand as well (reanimator/sneak attack). SOL may stop griseldaddy... but so does karakas and revoker... which our deck already runs. A griselbrand will almost never stay on the field against DNt, or any legendary creature for the most part from those combo decks.

FYI... the opponent can still cast there ponder under sol... they just can't draw a card. they still get to psuedo sensei's divining top and set up their next turn or shuffle chaff away.

p.s. cut the chrome mox. granted a turn one thalia, stoneforge mystic, or vial plus mom sounds awesome... it is card disavantage and a single one of will screw u up more then help you. our deck lacks all forms of card selection and card draw outside of horizon's canopy because we rely on creating a form of virtual card advatnage by preventing opponents from playing their spells. Often times playing DNT you will have your opponent with a fist full of cards while your sitting their hellbent with a thalia on board and a bunch of lands and ports and cheating things in with a vial. this is what the deck does. chrome mox doesn't help that plan.

You obviously haven't played legacy long enough. Tell me something I don't know.


It look's like someone is at top at SCG with a single ghost quarter that i mentioned.

[raikenxy]

You obviously haven't played legacy long enough. Tell me something I don't know.


It look's like someone is at top at SCG with a single ghost quarter that i mentioned.


Played it long enough to realize spirit of the labyrinth is a bad card... played it long enough to realize death and taxes runs FOUR thalia's... I was fairly certain my original reply to your message did tell you several things you weren't aware of. Enjoy your single ghost quarter.

[dcosiem]

Played it long enough to realize spirit of the labyrinth is a bad card... played it long enough to realize death and taxes runs FOUR thalia's... I was fairly certain my original reply to your message did tell you several things you weren't aware of. Enjoy your single ghost quarter.

Look at how nice that spirit played by David was shutting down those elvish visionaries from those draws to give Mirran card advantage.

[Tormod]

Spirit is good, it might not be 4 copies good, but it does a very good job of beating down with 3 power and slowing your opponent down to a more "fair" card draw rate.

Shiel's had Batterskull in the sideboard. I've seen a few Dnt decks doing this lately. What's the reasoning for this?

[amalek0]

getting back to the prison roots that was the origin of the deck?

[MrShine]

Spirit is good, it might not be 4 copies good, but it does a very good job of beating down with 3 power and slowing your opponent down to a more "fair" card draw rate.

Shiel's had Batterskull in the sideboard. I've seen a few Dnt decks doing this lately. What's the reasoning for this?

Finn has been suggesting / testing this for some time. It's basically a metagame call; most of the time you are going for Jitte first and SoFI close second anyway. Grabbing 'Skull and having SFM removed means it can get trapped in your hand. It also reduces the amount of bad opening hands due to the 3 equipment main, which was a problem I was definitely feeling.

Batterskull is at it's best against Miracles and other control decks as a recurring threat. Jitte / Sword are much better in the Midrange / Delver MUs where there's removal flying around everywhere and you need to keep them off as many threats as possible (to stop them connecting with their own Equipment).

[dcosiem]

Spirit is good, it might not be 4 copies good, but it does a very good job of beating down with 3 power and slowing your opponent down to a more "fair" card draw rate.

Shiel's had Batterskull in the sideboard. I've seen a few Dnt decks doing this lately. What's the reasoning for this?

I think it's good enough to put 3 at least against all blue decks.

[Barook]

I think it's good enough to put 3 at least against all blue decks.
But what to cut from the sideboards? We have lots of tools available, but not that much space to work with.

I'm also interested in the performance of Judgement's Council in Robert Sullivan's sideboard.

[Tormod]

I can see cutting Aven Mindcensor for Spirit of the Lab.

He's one of those cards blue decks and combo decks hate. He stops draws from cantrips, elvish visionary draws, ancestral visions shenanigans, griselbrand...

[Lemnear]

I can see cutting Aven Mindcensor for Spirit of the Lab.

He's one of those cards blue decks and combo decks hate. He stops draws from cantrips, elvish visionary draws, ancestral visions shenanigans, griselbrand...

What he can NOT do is catching the usual T1/2 cantrips fired to fix greedy keeps, handle Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames or provides any purpose against the threat of Griselbrand itself, which is being a 7/7 flying lifelinker you can rarely race. The only 2 combo decks SotL hosses are High Tide and OmniTell. I doubt that is enough for the Spirit to make the cut

[Thirty]

Council's judgement was a savior for me so many times yesterday.

I lost a close game to food chain yesterday match one in the SCG open, and then fell prey to Mono red burn with triple Goblin Guides on turn two. But the rest of the day was golden until I got paired against Mono red burn again. I exiled so many True Name Nemesis and even a Omnitell Progenitus.

Wish I had packed a true believer hate bear or better answer for the burn decks.

[Tormod]

What he can NOT do is catching the usual T1/2 cantrips fired to fix greedy keeps, handle Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames or provides any purpose against the threat of Griselbrand itself, which is being a 7/7 flying lifelinker you can rarely race. The only 2 combo decks SotL hosses are High Tide and OmniTell. I doubt that is enough for the Spirit to make the cut

And Aven Mindcensor helps against that how?

[raikenxy]

And Aven Mindcensor helps against that how?

aven mindcensor stops every tutor in most of those decks ? infernal tutor, fetch lands, natural order, merchant scroll, green sun zenith... albeit one of the weaker bears it still has applications wide enough to warrant main deck playability and it's still decent against elves, its a card that is neither truly bad or truly great against any match up; the flexibility of mindcensor would be it's greatest strength. Neither spirit or mindscensor stop a griselbrand, but at least mindcensor can block it. spirit hoses only a few decks and annoys others. decks like deathblade and delver strategies play things that impact the board before using cantrips to find answers. Spirit isn't gonna stop tnn from hitting you with a jitte while jace is fateseeling you, nor will it stop american delver just killing all your creatures with 8 removal spells and grim lavamancer post board. is it good against elves... yeah... they can't mid game grind you or just glimpse you out of no where... still doesn't stop them from just dropping a natural order on turn 4 and killing you. does it stop griselbrand? yeah... they can't draw seven... but they still end up getting a 7/7 with flying and lifelink that just reads "pay nothing: draw 1 card" when spirit is out. and lets just be honest i know i rarely keep in swords to plowshares against any deck playing griselbrand because karakas just takes care of him a lot better then any creature we play and the odds of being able to exile him are just way to low to warrant running 4 dead cards.

[Said-In-Contest]

aven mindcensor stops every tutor in most of those decks ? infernal tutor, fetch lands, natural order, merchant scroll, green sun zenith... albeit one of the weaker bears it still has applications wide enough to warrant main deck playability and it's still decent against elves, its a card that is neither truly bad or truly great against any match up; the flexibility of mindcensor would be it's greatest strength. Neither spirit or mindscensor stop a griselbrand, but at least mindcensor can block it. spirit hoses only a few decks and annoys others. decks like deathblade and delver strategies play things that impact the board before using cantrips to find answers. Spirit isn't gonna stop tnn from hitting you with a jitte while jace is fateseeling you, nor will it stop american delver just killing all your creatures with 8 removal spells and grim lavamancer post board. is it good against elves... yeah... they can't mid game grind you or just glimpse you out of no where... still doesn't stop them from just dropping a natural order on turn 4 and killing you. does it stop griselbrand? yeah... they can't draw seven... but they still end up getting a 7/7 with flying and lifelink that just reads "pay nothing: draw 1 card" when spirit is out. and lets just be honest i know i rarely keep in swords to plowshares against any deck playing griselbrand because karakas just takes care of him a lot better then any creature we play and the odds of being able to exile him are just way to low to warrant running 4 dead cards.

Well, playing 3 Karakas I think I won't mind having Griselbrand JUST a 7/7 flying lifelinker..I mean, the problem with Griselbrand is that his controller will kill us the following turn by drawing a bunch of cards....
I played vs Griselbrand a billion times, and still you name it with revoker to stop the draw as soon as possible...
With spirit on the ground and a non-uncommon combination of mother of runes and a flyer (Serra, flicker) you can block Griselbrand all day long.
Also, having the chance to slow down my opponent while he is casting cantrips (4 ponder, 4 brainstorm 2-3 gitaxian) is something I kinda like, because time is something I need to find Karakas and say goodbye.
All of this to say: spirit vs Griselbrand based decks is strong, no matter what

On the other hand, if you wanna talk about the fact that spirit can also be the most miserable card in the deck vs a lot of other decks, then I'll have to agree.
The card is simply sad because vs non combo non miracle decks it's a 3/1 that dies to anything, and usually you'll be forced to hold it back doing nothing.
By now I' tempted to switch the 2 spirit I have in the maindeck into 2 mind censor...still, having a lot of 3 drops and another situational card like the bird doesn't feel so great.
I mean, in the end mindcensor is really good vs combo decks and, as someone has already said, even spirit is good in those match ups...so I don't really know..
Moreover, all this x/1 dumb creatures are not a great deal...

Basically my thoughts were these:
If the meta is miracle oriented like it is in Italy, then 2 spirit in the main is fine. Not so great, but it does something

If the meta is like the American one, then I don't think I like the spirit so much

About having spirit in the board:
It's a great idea, no situational cards in the maindeck surely is good in this non cantrips deck.
The point is: do I really wanna cut something else from the board to make room for it?

[Lemnear]

And Aven Mindcensor helps against that how?

This was NOT an argument FOR Mindcensor. The point of my post was to Highlight that SotL has actually a minimal impact on cantrips, combo and Griselbrand aka the reasons you want to run Spirit in the first place. We had all those "OMG! It kills blue and combo!" In the Spoiler thread and those proved themselves laughable; not only because ANT runs 3-4 Dread of Night

[Tormod]

This was NOT an argument FOR Mindcensor. The point of my post was to Highlight that SotL has actually a minimal impact on cantrips, combo and Griselbrand aka the reasons you want to run Spirit in the first place. We had all those "OMG! It kills blue and combo!" In the Spoiler thread and those proved themselves laughable; not only because ANT runs 3-4 Dread of Night

You must be confused. I said I could see cutting Aven Mindcensor for Spirit of the Lab, then you went off on your tirade.

[Lemnear]

You must be confused. I said I could see cutting Aven Mindcensor for Spirit of the Lab, then you went off on your tirade.

I'm not confused. You made bold statements about how good SotL is against this and that; I mentioned that those reasonings for SotL are the same we saw in the Spoiler thread and that they are flawed

[dcosiem]

What he can NOT do is catching the usual T1/2 cantrips fired to fix greedy keeps, handle Ad Nauseam/Past in Flames or provides any purpose against the threat of Griselbrand itself, which is being a 7/7 flying lifelinker you can rarely race. The only 2 combo decks SotL hosses are High Tide and OmniTell. I doubt that is enough for the Spirit to make the cut

How can you doubt that? That is the whole format of legacy. LOL.


And Aven Mindcensor helps against that how?

Probably Aven at 1 would do. He's not great enough to have 2 I think because it's a turn 3 card, and that somehow or other it doesn't stop the person from retrieving a land if he is lucky enough to see 1 at the top 4 or whatever they are searching for. There are so many flex spots in Death and Taxes, it's a meta call and experience on the player to determine which is best fit for them. Who do you want to beat? Who do you want to have a bad match up against? Or do you just want to be 50% against all the format? I build most of my decks to the last option, but sometimes big tournements I tune by decks to beat blue decks because they are the most versatile and consistent decks at winning due to Brainstorm and Force of Will mostly.


aven mindcensor stops every tutor in most of those decks ? infernal tutor, fetch lands, natural order, merchant scroll, green sun zenith... albeit one of the weaker bears it still has applications wide enough to warrant main deck playability and it's still decent against elves, its a card that is neither truly bad or truly great against any match up; the flexibility of mindcensor would be it's greatest strength. Neither spirit or mindscensor stop a griselbrand, but at least mindcensor can block it. spirit hoses only a few decks and annoys others. decks like deathblade and delver strategies play things that impact the board before using cantrips to find answers. Spirit isn't gonna stop tnn from hitting you with a jitte while jace is fateseeling you, nor will it stop american delver just killing all your creatures with 8 removal spells and grim lavamancer post board. is it good against elves... yeah... they can't mid game grind you or just glimpse you out of no where... still doesn't stop them from just dropping a natural order on turn 4 and killing you. does it stop griselbrand? yeah... they can't draw seven... but they still end up getting a 7/7 with flying and lifelink that just reads "pay nothing: draw 1 card" when spirit is out. and lets just be honest i know i rarely keep in swords to plowshares against any deck playing griselbrand because karakas just takes care of him a lot better then any creature we play and the odds of being able to exile him are just way to low to warrant running 4 dead cards.


Fix your english. It's atrocious. That was hard to read. Yes, comparing Griselbrand to a Spirit of Lab--it's obvious that Griselbrand is the better creature. But, for MTG sake, do we really need to compare how good a blocker Mindcensor is opposed to Spirit? We're talking about Spirit's ability to give us favorable control over upbeat fast tempo brainstorming decks. If people never played any blue decks before, and are speaking solely on the fact that they have only played this deck, don't even contest what I'm saying. I'm telling you this card is the shit. Play 3 of this or at least 2, your deck will be a top contending deck. Then more people will have more hate for it because it's just too good. Have people forgotten that the best card in legacy is Brainstorm and why it's so good? HELLO, ANCESTRAL RECALL are you there? By holy grail of Magic, why is Ancestrall Recall limited to 1 in Vintage? It's almost the same principle with Brainstorm, but you have to put 2 back. But, it's makes it great with fetch lands to shuffle bad cards away and get new ones. We all know that. My point is Spirit stops people from drawing 3 cards. 3 cards is 3 threats. It's so fucking good. People have to learn to adapt to the changes that are coming. If you don't, stay behind and fail while others succeed because they understand value of new assets that change the game.

[Lemnear]

How can you doubt that? That is the whole format of legacy

It's atrocious. That was hard to read. Yes, comparing Griselbrand to a Spirit of Lab--it's obvious that Griselbrand is the better creature. But, for MTG sake, do we really need to compare how good a blocker Mindcensor is opposed to Spirit? We're talking about Spirit's ability to give us favorable control over upbeat fast tempo brainstorming decks. If people never played any blue decks before, and are speaking solely on the fact that they have only played this deck, don't even contest what I'm saying. I'm telling you this card is the shit. Play 3 of this or at least 2, your deck will be a top contending deck. Then more people will have more hate for it because it's just too good. Have people forgotten that the best card in legacy is Brainstorm and why it's so good? HELLO, ANCESTRAL RECALL are you there? By holy grail of Magic, why is Ancestrall Recall limited to 1 in Vintage? It's almost the same principle with Brainstorm, but you have to put 2 back. But, it's makes it great with fetch lands to shuffle bad cards away and get new ones. We all know that. My point is Spirit stops people from drawing 3 cards. 3 cards is 3 threats. It's so fucking good. People have to learn to adapt to the changes that are coming. If you don't, stay behind and fail while others succeed because they understand value of new assets that change the game.

Yeah, Legacy is all about Enter the Infinte and Time Spiral and lets not Contest that someone is saying who can't differ between +2 cardadvantage and +/-0 off a 1cc card while ignoring all points I previously made about SotL being unable to catch T1/2 Cantrips, Brainstorms cast in response to SotL or the fact that the format is also full of StoP and Lightning Bolts to respond to vialed SotL's. We saw the attempts to run 3-4 SotL to adress Legacy's 8-cantrip-core in the past with desasterous results.

I can't take a discussion serious which grounds itself on stuff like "Brainstorm = Ancestral Recall -> SotL; ignore all manacosts" or "Leonin Arbiter -> Tutors or Fetches never work; ignore all manacost". Prime example of trolling this thread, dcoaiem

[Tormod]

I'm not confused. You made bold statements about how good SotL is against this and that; I mentioned that those reasonings for SotL are the same we saw in the Spoiler thread and that they are flawed

Hell yeah you're confused. You even quoted me where I said I can see cutting Aven for SoL.

Maybe you should stop arguing for the sake of arguing. Its really boring to see you groan about things and act like you're 'better' than everyone. We get it, You love Your Opinions and think others should take it as gospel.

[LeoCop 90]

Men, there's no need to argue this way over spirit of the lab. Lemnear is being so harsh about the card just because when it was first spoiled, everyone thought it would completely warp legacy. During the first weeks after spirit's release, we saw lists with 4-of main deck and they didn't work very well.
That said, i think spirit is not a bad card. Simply put, you can't expect to jam 4 of them into your deck and destroy blue because of them. It is just a card that can work mid-game, when the board is stabilized, in order to make every topdecked cantrip useless. And yeah, it has some applications against combo. Overall, i think playing a couple spirits main deck can be viable but you have to be very careful in what to cut. Its best place though is as a one-of in side paired with enlightened tutor in my opinion.

[Zombie]

Men, there's no need to argue this way over spirit of the lab. Lemnear is being so harsh about the card just because when it was first spoiled, everyone thought it would completely warp legacy. During the first weeks after spirit's release, we saw lists with 4-of main deck and they didn't work very well.
That said, i think spirit is not a bad card. Simply put, you can't expect to jam 4 of them into your deck and destroy blue because of them. It is just a card that can work mid-game, when the board is stabilized, in order to make every topdecked cantrip useless. And yeah, it has some applications against combo. Overall, i think playing a couple spirits main deck can be viable but you have to be very careful in what to cut. Its best place though is as a one-of in side paired with enlightened tutor in my opinion.

Ponder and Preordain do work just fine under Spirit. It nerfs them for sure, but they can still do the card selection stuff. GSZ likewise doesn't really care. Elvish Visionary, Glimpse and Brainstorm get horribly murdered though.

[Finn]

Ponder and Preordain do work just fine under Spirit. It nerfs them for sure, but they can still do the card selection stuff. GSZ likewise doesn't really care. Elvish Visionary, Glimpse and Brainstorm get horribly murdered though.Eh, not so much. I have sat on the ANT side of this, and it is too much for ANT to handle for the most part. I dunno about Show and Tell stuff, but storm can maybe cast one of the sorcery cantrips before you just grind to a halt. You can't just go down a card each time. Storm needs a number of cards in hand to build the count. I have gotten lucky a few times. I chained tutors once, and I got a really good Past in Flames sequence once. Most of the time Spirit slows the game enough for D+T to do its thing. For every time I have gotten around Spirit of the Lab, I have gone down to it a few others. Of all the occasions I have faced it, the only times I have gotten around it has been when it was the only disruption D+T could muster. Paired with Revoker, Canonist, Mindcensor, RiP, or Thalia, I just could not circumvent it in time. Take your salt with this though - I am a competent storm player. I am certainly not the best around.

[dcosiem]

Eh, not so much. I have sat on the ANT side of this, and it is too much for ANT to handle for the most part. I dunno about Show and Tell stuff, but storm can maybe cast one of the sorcery cantrips before you just grind to a halt. You can't just go down a card each time. Storm needs a number of cards in hand to build the count. I have gotten lucky a few times. I chained tutors once, and I got a really good Past in Flames sequence once. Most of the time Spirit slows the game enough for D+T to do its thing. For every time I have gotten around Spirit of the Lab, I have gone down to it a few others. Of all the occasions I have faced it, the only times I have gotten around it has been when it was the only disruption D+T could muster. Paired with Revoker, Canonist, Mindcensor, RiP, or Thalia, I just could not circumvent it in time. Take your salt with this though - I am a competent storm player. I am certainly not the best around.

I'm a pretty competent Show and tell player so i can say that there was a time, when I had activated Griselbrand trigger against D+T to draw extra cards to advance my board position when my opponent had aether vial out. He activated his vial out to put in Spirit of Lab and i just took 7 life for nothing. It's kinda devasting especially when your life points matters and your opponent has enough creatures to grind out a close match.

On the other hand, I've prevented a Sneak and Show player's Griselbrand activation on Cockatrice, and he kicked me out because of it.

[dcosiem]

Yeah, Legacy is all about Enter the Infinte and Time Spiral and lets not Contest that someone is saying who can't differ between +2 cardadvantage and +/-0 off a 1cc card while ignoring all points I previously made about SotL being unable to catch T1/2 Cantrips, Brainstorms cast in response to SotL or the fact that the format is also full of StoP and Lightning Bolts to respond to vialed SotL's. We saw the attempts to run 3-4 SotL to adress Legacy's 8-cantrip-core in the past with desasterous results.

I can't take a discussion serious which grounds itself on stuff like "Brainstorm = Ancestral Recall -> SotL; ignore all manacosts" or "Leonin Arbiter -> Tutors or Fetches never work; ignore all manacost". Prime example of trolling this thread, dcoaiem

How am I trolling? I'm just telling you the truth. You just interpret it as trolling. Can trips during turn 1 or 2 doesn't really matter that much. Most games in legacy aren't won in just the first and second turns. Only a small percentage can do this. So it wouldn't really matter because if you lose on the first or second turn, that's just pure example of complete luck by opponent being dealt the "God" hand. You have no control over that. You obvious don't understand the importance of mid-game stability where most the action happen. Spirit becomes a great card in the long run as much as more so than Thalia because of the fact it's simply more controlling. Thalia becomes useless after many turns once the opponent has developed enough or large land base to ignore Thalia's effect. Then again, that's why you play Rishadan Port and Wasteland to cut of the mana making Thalia more presumably valuable then she really is. This deck is great because as a whole it is solidly fine tuned because the creatures in this deck have an impact on game state no matter what's the case. Spirit of Lab just adds an additional control effect to our weapons that we have at disposal. The fact that you have Mother in this deck can help stop Stop and Bolts. Yet, something we already know.

[Finn]

I'm a pretty competent Show and tell player so i can say that there was a time, when I had activated Griselbrand trigger against D+T to draw extra cards to advance my board position when my opponent had aether vial out. He activated his vial out to put in Spirit of Lab and i just took 7 life for nothing. It's kinda devasting especially when your life points matters and your opponent has enough creatures to grind out a close match.

On the other hand, I've prevented a Sneak and Show player's Griselbrand activation on Cockatrice, and he kicked me out because of it.I got the dream-Spirit of the Lab-in response to Griselbrand activation at a local tournament. My opponent may have been better than yours because he paid 7 more life with the Vial on the stack. It was game 3 and I lost. I was pissed about it all day, but it was a learning experience. You don't want to wait for Grisel activation if possible. I should have Vialed the Spirit in with Show and Tell on the stack or earlier.

[Tormod]

Wouldn't playing SoL off the show and tell that your opponents used to put out griselbrand, stop him from drawing cards? SoL is continuous.

[Barbed Blightning]

Wouldn't playing SoL off the show and tell that your opponents used to put out griselbrand, stop him from drawing cards? SoL is continuous.
Indeed.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Lemnear]

How am I trolling? I'm just telling you the truth. You just interpret it as trolling. Can trips during turn 1 or 2 doesn't really matter that much. Most games in legacy aren't won in just the first and second turns. Only a small percentage can do this. So it wouldn't really matter because if you lose on the first or second turn, that's just pure example of complete luck by opponent being dealt the "God" hand.

"Truth" is a big word if you choose to argue in hyperboles like the Ancestral Recall one to have a point.

Zvi Mowshowitz wrote an classic article about the "fundamental turns" in MTG formats in 2000 (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/3688_Clear-The-Land-And-The-Fundamental-Turn.html) and Carsten Kötter picked up the topic of certain decks "fundamental turns" in terms of combo in 2013 (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27202_Eternal-Europe-The-Combo-Continuum.html) and I'm certain both would strongly disagree that "Cantrips during turn 1 or 2 doesn't really matter that much". From these articles alone you can clearly see that Legacy's usual "fundamental turn" is close to turn 3, meaning that at this point a Decks is "fully ready to implement its game-plan" (C.Kötter).

How can you seriously claiming, that it is "the truth", that 2/3 of Legacy's deciding timeframe within a game "doesn't really matter that much"? How can you be that arrogant to reduce the decks, which are geared towards deciding the game in these early turns, to a pure matter of "complete luck by opponent being dealt the "God" hand"?

In regards to Legacy's average fundamental turn being close to turn 3 (which can mean anything from resolving Ad Nauseam to establishing SFM -> Batterskull to assembling Countertop), I'm sure both, Leonin Arbiter AND SotL are simply too slow and their mid-/lategame-impact is not that great considering all the removal in the format.

[Tormod]

Lemnear, posting in aggressive tones and absolutes only serves to poison the thread. Not sure if that is your intention.

[raikenxy]

"Truth" is a big word if you choose to argue in hyperboles like the Ancestral Recall one to have a point.

Zvi Mowshowitz wrote an classic article about the "fundamental turns" in MTG formats in 2000 (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/3688_Clear-The-Land-And-The-Fundamental-Turn.html) and Carsten Kötter picked up the topic of certain decks "fundamental turns" in terms of combo in 2013 (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27202_Eternal-Europe-The-Combo-Continuum.html) and I'm certain both would strongly disagree that "Cantrips during turn 1 or 2 doesn't really matter that much". From these articles alone you can clearly see that Legacy's usual "fundamental turn" is close to turn 3, meaning that at this point a Decks is "fully ready to implement its game-plan" (C.Kötter).

How can you seriously claiming, that it is "the truth", that 2/3 of Legacy's deciding timeframe within a game "doesn't really matter that much"? How can you be that arrogant to reduce the decks, which are geared towards deciding the game in these early turns, to a pure matter of "complete luck by opponent being dealt the "God" hand"?

In regards to Legacy's average fundamental turn being close to turn 3 (which can mean anything from resolving Ad Nauseam to establishing SFM -> Batterskull to assembling Countertop), I'm sure both, Leonin Arbiter AND SotL are simply too slow and their mid-/lategame-impact is not that great considering all the removal in the format.

so much truth, no trolling in sight 0.o

thank you lemnear!

And anyone saying turn one cantrips aren't important needs to jam a couple more thousand games of legacy against brainstorm decks. Even more so anyone saying sol is more important than thalia in dnt needs to just play a completely different deck. DnT is the most all in thalia deck in the format and is the best deck to utilize her ability. SoL doesn't come anywhere close in comparison.

[Finn]

so much truth, no trolling in sight 0.o

thank you lemnear!

And anyone saying turn one cantrips aren't important needs to jam a couple more thousand games of legacy against brainstorm decks. Even more so anyone saying sol is more important than thalia in dnt needs to just play a completely different deck. DnT is the most all in thalia deck in the format and is the best deck to utilize her ability. SoL doesn't come anywhere close in comparison.This is quite an interesting statement. I had to think about what that really means, but I think it is not quite right. I think I understand the sentiment. Thalia is a natural fit for D+T. But what makes Thalia so effective in Legacy is really the fact that she does not require the deck to go all in. Incidentally, this is exactly why Spirit of the Lab has been so much less effective on the whole. Certainly Spirit goes balls deep on combo decks sometimes. But the same is true for True Believer, and that card is not very good. What makes Thalia so effective is that it is pretty good against nearly every deck. Spirit just sucks on some occasions.

Great against the right deck. Meh against many others. That's a sideboard card, folks. Unfortunately, it does not shore up the problem matchups very much: Elves, Jund, Belcher, 12-Post, etc.

[Lemnear]

If fast combo is a problem I would suggest Mindbreak Traps to bridge the gap until Thalia or Canonist can come down. During BoM in November, this tech served Julian and his Elves very well to stall storm enough until he could cast discard or Natural Order for Ruric Thar. I don't see a reason this SB tech can not be adopted by D&T.

[Barbed Blightning]

If fast combo is a problem I would suggest Mindbreak Traps to bridge the gap until Thalia or Canonist can come down. During BoM in November, this tech served Julian and his Elves very well to stall storm enough until he could cast discard or Natural Order for Ruric Thar. I don't see a reason this SB tech can not be adopted by D&T.
because it is too narrow in application? Elves (especially NO->Thar) have a more immediate win than D&T and, as you said, just needs to survive for a few turns until they combo out. We have no such means of insta-killing.

Even so, a small handful have played with the card, but have probably came to a similar conclusion to my own: it's a garbage card for this deck. It builds no board presence, provides you no means of regaining lost control, works only in a specific matchup in a specific situation (the trap trigger) and is literally unplayable (at least elves can via DRS or Birchlore) at every other junction.

I don't believe fast combo (aside from Belcher I guess) to be a problem; then again, I don't think Elves is a particularly "fast" combo deck.

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Said-In-Contest]

The main problem with mindbreak trap is that, playing a deck with Thalia that loves to tap itself out (rishadan in upkeep anyone?), is that you gonna risk not to be able to cast the trap when needed or, even worse, you won't cast hatebears just to keep the mana open.
As a storm player, I can ensure you that mind break trap is not a big deal compared to hatebears.
Moreover, I will always cast a duress/cabal therapy/gitaxian probe before comboing off...so basically the Trap looks like a protection, but is not vs experienced storm player.
Also, any creature you gonna have post board will be more effective than a trap, because you will prevent the storm deck to start the combo, when the trap just tries to stop it when it's already going off.

About Spirit of the Labyrinth vs storm.
With all the maindeck creatures of death and taxes, believe me when I say that spirit is the last hatebear I'll cast vs ANT.
I'd love a turn 2 Thalia (yeah, everybody does...)
I'd really like a turn 2 Revoker ----> LED (one of the strongest card in our deck since it dodges dread of night and stops the 80% of ANT combinations to combo off)
I'd freak out with a turn 2 Canonist
I'd cross my fingers if I had nothing more than a turn 2 spirit. This because while passing the turn, I have to consider the fact that on turn 3 the storm deck will be able to combo off. It's not uncommon! So it might just had finished playing cantrips...he can also play brainstorm in response to spirit, untap, draw and go off.
So really, spirit is not that great as the first hatebear.
I like it as a support to smother guy played earlier.

On Elves.
REALLY?! You do not consider elves a fast combo decks? Seriously? I think it's the deck with the most consistent turn 3 "combo" in legacy....it just needs 4-5 mana (if Thalia is out there) for NO --> Progenitus and gg.
That's why it's a nightmare match up for death and Taxes. Million dorks, minimum mana required to devastate us, incredible consistence.
How can you call it "a not so fast combo deck"?

[Lemnear]

The main problem with mindbreak trap is that, playing a deck with Thalia that loves to tap itself out (rishadan in upkeep anyone?), is that you gonna risk not to be able to cast the trap when needed or, even worse, you won't cast hatebears just to keep the mana open.
As a storm player, I can ensure you that mind break trap is not a big deal compared to hatebears.
Moreover, I will always cast a duress/cabal therapy/gitaxian probe before comboing off...so basically the Trap looks like a protection, but is not vs experienced storm player.
Also, any creature you gonna have post board will be more effective than a trap, because you will prevent the storm deck to start the combo, when the trap just tries to stop it when it's already going off.

You miss my point here. MBT was an idea to supplement Thalia and Canonist and closing the gap of the up to two turns your opponent has without resistance from your side if you ONLY run hatebears. You don't really need MBT if Thalia or Canonkst is on the field, but if your opponent removes Thalia/Canonist to combo, MBT is active again as a 0cc card. Storm has no problems in dismembering MBT alone or any single angle of hate, but the combination of Counter + hatebear rises some problems and questions for storm especially with the difficult task to balance your Discard (Duress can't take Thalia) or permanent-removal (CoV, Decay) instead of being able to ignore one angle completely and streamline your protection.

[Said-In-Contest]

You miss my point here. MBT was an idea to supplement Thalia and Canonist and closing the gap of the up to two turns your opponent has without resistance from your side if you ONLY run hatebears. You don't really need MBT if Thalia or Canonkst is on the field, but if your opponent removes Thalia/Canonist to combo, MBT is active again as a 0cc card. Storm has no problems in dismembering MBT alone or any single angle of hate, but the combination of Counter + hatebear rises some problems and questions for storm especially with the difficult task to balance your Discard (Duress can't take Thalia) or permanent-removal (CoV, Decay) instead of being able to ignore one angle completely and streamline your protection.

I See, but I still consider storm to be a favorable match up for death and taxes so I'll not dedicate more that 2 slot in the board (Canonist) for that.
Ok he has turn 1 (congrats) and 2 (not very likely to happen) to win. Then we start casting problems.
Again, if ANT was played so much, I'll maybe would increase the cards in the board...as it is by now, I don't think it's needed.
Also, before playing mindbreak trap I'll play surgical all day long. More versatile and vs ant does more or less the same thing: forbids the PIF combo (surgical on tutor) and stops an enormous amount of AN combos (still surgical on tutor, so they need to naturally find tendrils, which it would be a 4 damage hit). Moreover, it can be used in response to a discard spell, in order to gain at least some utility out of it.
Mind tea trap is strong only vs belcher and ops all spells...shitty turn 1 decks that are almost unbeatable with death and taxes. Anyway, they represent something like 0,X % of the field, and I'll never worry about those tier57 unless I'll know for sure I' gonna face them (local shop or something like that).

If an ANT player sides in Abrupt Decay vs death and taxes you just know that he is a weak storm player. Cc 2 spot removal (3 if Thalia) forcing him to fetch on dual vs a mana denial deck with mother of runes is suicide.
ANT mana base is a rock, no need of duals 90% of the games.
Decay is slow, underperforming and too risky.
The combination dread of night + chain of vapor is something death and taxes rarely can handle. Only vial at 2 and Canonist/revoker in play would seal the deal.
One thing that might appear arrogant: keep in mind that the majority of storm player is not so good. ANT (and also TES in a different way) are very challenging decks and just a few amount of players test them so long to be finally good on playing them. I've always find helpful to exploit their weakness, looking how and when they fetch, the order of the cantrips, the time they take to think ecc.

All of this not because I want to contradict you. Only because I think that 15 slots in the board are very few, and personally I'll dedicate as room as possible vs the most common decks in the meta.

[Lemnear]

I See, but I still consider storm to be a favorable match up for death and taxes so I'll not dedicate more that 2 slot in the board (Canonist) for that.
Ok he has turn 1 (congrats) and 2 (not very likely to happen) to win. Then we start casting problems.
Again, if ANT was played so much, I'll maybe would increase the cards in the board...as it is by now, I don't think it's needed.
Also, before playing mindbreak trap I'll play surgical all day long. More versatile and vs ant does more or less the same thing: forbids the PIF combo (surgical on tutor) and stops an enormous amount of AN combos (still surgical on tutor, so they need to naturally find tendrils, which it would be a 4 damage hit). Moreover, it can be used in response to a discard spell, in order to gain at least some utility out of it.
Mind tea trap is strong only vs belcher and ops all spells...shitty turn 1 decks that are almost unbeatable with death and taxes. Anyway, they represent something like 0,X % of the field, and I'll never worry about those tier57 unless I'll know for sure I' gonna face them (local shop or something like that).

If an ANT player sides in Abrupt Decay vs death and taxes you just know that he is a weak storm player. Cc 2 spot removal (3 if Thalia) forcing him to fetch on dual vs a mana denial deck with mother of runes is suicide.
ANT mana base is a rock, no need of duals 90% of the games.
Decay is slow, underperforming and too risky.
The combination dread of night + chain of vapor is something death and taxes rarely can handle. Only vial at 2 and Canonist/revoker in play would seal the deal.
One thing that might appear arrogant: keep in mind that the majority of storm player is not so good. ANT (and also TES in a different way) are very challenging decks and just a few amount of players test them so long to be finally good on playing them. I've always find helpful to exploit their weakness, looking how and when they fetch, the order of the cantrips, the time they take to think ecc.

All of this not because I want to contradict you. Only because I think that 15 slots in the board are very few, and personally I'll dedicate as room as possible vs the most common decks in the meta.

I have to agree with most said. Maybe I have a special point of view in regards to the combo matchup coming myself from the TES end of the storm decks and you are probably right to simply ignore the T1/2 weakness to the very few Belcher/OopsAllSpells/TES/Whatever in the metagame and focus on the matchups that you'll face more likely. I just mentioned this angle of defense as Belcher itself was mentioned as an obvious proxy for these T1/2 decks as a whole.

Sadly, the whole bunch of Massacre and/or Dread of Night in ANT sideboards are very harsh to withstand too.

[Said-In-Contest]

I have to agree with most said. Maybe I have a special point of view in regards to the combo matchup coming myself from the TES end of the storm decks and you are probably right to simply ignore the T1/2 weakness to the very few Belcher/OopsAllSpells/TES/Whatever in the metagame and focus on the matchups that you'll face more likely. I just mentioned this angle of defense as Belcher itself was mentioned as an obvious proxy for these T1/2 decks as a whole.

Sadly, the whole bunch of Massacre and/or Dread of Night in ANT sideboards are very harsh to withstand too.

Yeah, dread of night is very devastating.
Just for the pleasure of discussing, let's take a look to my ant sideboarding plan vs D&T:

-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Duress
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 dread of night
+3 chain of vapor

So basically an ANT player will give up a few cards that let him see the opponent's hand for easy to understand hate cards.
Look that he won't abandon all the discards spell. There will still be some cabal and duress to try to hit Thalia/revoked and vial or eventual traps/surgicals.

With death and taxes I usually board like this:

-4 plow
-1/2 flickerwisp
-1 Jitte

+3 rip
+2 canonist
+1 tutor
+0/1 ratchet bomb

Canonist is obvious, and so is tutor (for canonist or rip)
Rip helps vs PIF but also for cabal ritual, which requires threshold to be effective. Keep in mind that with rip on board, he will be forced to go for AN (let's assume he doesn't have a chain of vapor to dedicate to rip, because we will have some sort of revoker/canonist that will call his chain of v) and even if the deck's name is Ad Nauseam Tendrils, AN is really risky, and he can kill himself more than often.
I' ll side ratchet bomb only if I'm sure he has Empty the Warrens (so basically g3). Otherwise I don't like to worry about that because Stoneforge for Batterskull usually handles the vast majority of etw combos (do some Mathis and you'll realize how many goblins are needed to race Batterskull XD)

So, if dread of night hits the board, we are left with this:

4 revokers
2 canonists
1 tutor

Not that bad, it's the 11% of the deck, so in the first 7-8 cards we should have one of them. Add the 3 rips that slows him down a lot, and we should manage to get one of these guys in play.
Then let's say this: like Leyline strategies, if the ANT player mulls into dread of night he shouldn't have an explosive game, so we are not in a total bad shape. Also, if he uses his cantrips to find a dread, then he will definitely need more time/cantrips to sculpt his hand.
At that point, I'll use my rishadan to tap all the islands I can (never tap black mana lands, since he just need 1 black to chain rituals, so even a lotus petal would make the cut) and hope he "bricks" having just 15 lands until I play one of the guys above.
Vial at 2 it's a dream that I still believe in, if it dodges the discard spells that rarely are fired off the first turns (I'll cast canonist/revoker and leave the vial untapped until the day of judgement comes....not talking about the card doomsday....sorry, it was stronger then me..........)
Note that my sideboard with ant had 6 cards vs death and taxes...it'll be surprising if people have 4.

If someone is not so experienced vs ANT, then I suggest something not so amazing but effective:
Cut another flickerwisp for 1 Pithing needle.
One thing we will always know for sure is that ANT runs 4 Polluted Delta. Name it to try to attack their best fetch, so they would be obliged to fetch for duals if they wanna cast dread for example.
I know it's not so great, but if someone feels safer this way, it might be worth.

Let me know if someone has different opinions.

[nevilshute]

Bringing in Pithing Needle to name Polluted Delta? I don't know, that seems somewhat.. far fetched.

:smile:

[Lemnear]

Yeah, dread of night is very devastating.
Just for the pleasure of discussing, let's take a look to my ant sideboarding plan vs D&T:

-3 Gitaxian Probe
-2 Duress
-1 Cabal Therapy

+3 dread of night
+3 chain of vapor


Ago-old topic in the storm-threads: Boarding out Probes in storm is a no-go. Free information about opponents hate or how much time you have, aiming help for Therapy, free stormcount for EtW or post-PIF or turbo-thre.shold for Cabal Ritual is priceless. I'll rather cut cantrips like all Preordains or 1-2 Ponder alongside ALL Duress for SB hate before touching Probes.

So basically an ANT player will give up a few cards that let him see the opponent's hand for easy to understand hate cards.
Look that he won't abandon all the discards spell. There will still be some cabal and duress to try to hit Thalia/revoked and vial or eventual traps/surgicals.


I disagree. Discard in ANT vs. D&T is pointless as D&T can outright topdeck the next hatebear or has several (different) in hand. Duress is worthless, Therapies are still ok with Probes and Chain of Vapor. What you are boarding out is the whole dead package like Duress and filter for cards what actually do something.

With death and taxes I usually board like this:

-4 plow
-1/2 flickerwisp
-1 Jitte

+3 rip
+2 canonist
+1 tutor
+0/1 ratchet bomb

Canonist is obvious, and so is tutor (for canonist or rip)
Rip helps vs PIF but also for cabal ritual, which requires threshold to be effective. Keep in mind that with rip on board, he will be forced to go for AN


not quite true I fear. There is the option to sandbag fetches and cards, eot CoV the RIP and get turbo-thre.shold with fetches, cantrips (Probes!) and a hand of up to 8 cards which is a viable option if Dread of Night stalls your aggro.

(let's assume he doesn't have a chain of vapor to dedicate to rip, because we will have some sort of revoker/canonist that will call his chain of v) and even if the deck's name is Ad Nauseam Tendrils, AN is really risky, and he can kill himself more than often.
I' ll side ratchet bomb only if I'm sure he has Empty the Warrens (so basically g3).


Immediately board it if you see Wishes ;)

Otherwise I don't like to worry about that because Stoneforge for Batterskull usually handles the vast majority of etw combos (do some Mathis and you'll realize how many goblins are needed to race Batterskull XD)


You know that Cabal Therapy + EtW laughs at you whole plan to stick a Batterskull? SFM even dictates Therapy-targets...

So, if dread of night hits the board, we are left with this:

4 revokers
2 canonists
1 tutor

Not that bad, it's the 11% of the deck, so in the first 7-8 cards we should have one of them. Add the 3 rips that slows him down a lot, and we should manage to get one of these guys in play.


Avenger survives too.

Then let's say this: like Leyline strategies, if the ANT player mulls into dread of night he shouldn't have an explosive game, so we are not in a total bad shape. Also, if he uses his cantrips to find a dread, then he will definitely need more time/cantrips to sculpt his hand.
At that point, I'll use my rishadan to tap all the islands I can (never tap black mana lands, since he just need 1 black to chain rituals, so even a lotus petal would make the cut) and hope he "bricks" having just 15 lands until I play one of the guys above.
Vial at 2 it's a dream that I still believe in, if it dodges the discard spells that rarely are fired off the first turns (I'll cast canonist/revoker and leave the vial untapped until the day of judgement comes....not talking about the card doomsday....sorry, it was stronger then me..........)
Note that my sideboard with ant had 6 cards vs death and taxes...it'll be surprising if people have 4.

If someone is not so experienced vs ANT, then I suggest something not so amazing but effective:
Cut another flickerwisp for 1 Pithing needle.
One thing we will always know for sure is that ANT runs 4 Polluted Delta. Name it to try to attack their best fetch, so they would be obliged to fetch for duals if they wanna cast dread for example.
I know it's not so great, but if someone feels safer this way, it might be worth.

Let me know if someone has different opinions.


I did ;)

[Said-In-Contest]

I Think we are now talking more about ant then D&T...so I'll reply just once more :)

Probe is amazing ok, everybody knows. The fact is that it's useless to look at my opponent's hand and see Thalia/revoker/Canonist ecc...you'll see them and what? Vs counter based decks, informations are the most valuable thing...vs hatebears well, I don't know how to exploit them, since I cannot interact with my opponents hand so much.
Dread of night turns Thalia and co. into useless creatures, so looking at the opponent's hand is not so helpful.

Duress is useless you say. I don't think so. Rip is a pain in the a*s and it's not so easy as you say to go in threshold in one turn...only the nut draw can do that, since he needs threshold when he casts cabal ritual...maybe just an elaborate play like tutor, responce cabal ritual, responce crack LED, ritual checks threshold and there you go...but it's not always Christmas...Moreover, and ant player cannot know if the opponent has some of those strange card in the board (like mindbreak or surgical, which are not so common in D&T board), but since storm usually loses g1 he is obliged to respect them and keep some duresses (is this the plural of duress? Lol..). And here we go back: if you see mindbreak with probe, what do you do? Nothing, you say some 4 letter words and that's it. It's useless to have informations while you have no way to deal with the troubles you see. I've lost to many games due to this thing.
Still not convinced? I've talked with timo shunemann and watched hours of Adam Prosak's podcast to confirm the fact that you may cut probes and nothing will fall.
You suggest to cut preordain? You miss the fact that post board, the goal with ant is to find dread of night, slam into the board, and then win. To find it you need cantrips.

Serra avenger survives too...yeah, great hatebear folks! I was talking about which hatebears we would be left with, if dread will hit the board...even mirran crusader and brimaz survive too if you like.

Empty the warrens is not so common as a sideboard card in ant. Finally they realized how bad it is.
If he has a fast EtW combo and also cabal therapy, we'll congrats...usually a normal human being doesn't have it all.
Even so, since our opponents has everything, I'll reply with this: eot tap vial for Stoneforge, get batterskull, untap, activate Stoneforge. Where is his therapy now? :)

[Lemnear]

I Think we are now talking more about ant then D&T...so I'll reply just once more :)

Probe is amazing ok, everybody knows. The fact is that it's useless to look at my opponent's hand and see Thalia/revoker/Canonist ecc...you'll see them and what? Vs counter based decks, informations are the most valuable thing...vs hatebears well, I don't know how to exploit them, since I cannot interact with my opponents hand so much.
Dread of night turns Thalia and co. into useless creatures, so looking at the opponent's hand is not so helpful.


you still want fast thre.shold and you still want to thin out your deck to find DoN without paying 1-2 mana for a Preordain. Also you have Therapies remaining in the deck, right?

Duress is useless you say. I don't think so. Rip is a pain in the a*s and it's not so easy as you say to go in threshold in one turn...only the nut draw can do that, since he needs threshold when he casts cabal ritual...maybe just an elaborate play like tutor, responce cabal ritual, responce crack LED, ritual checks threshold and there you go...but it's not always Christmas...


you still can answer RIP & Hatebears with CoV. Duress can not remove Hatebears nor topdecked RIPs. That's all I wanted to Highlight

Moreover, and ant player cannot know if the opponent has some of those strange card in the board (like mindbreak or surgical, which are not so common in D&T board), but since storm usually loses g1 he is obliged to respect them and keep some duresses (is this the plural of duress? Lol..). And here we go back: if you see mindbreak with probe, what do you do? Nothing, you say some 4 letter words and that's it. It's useless to have informations while you have no way to deal with the troubles you see. I've lost to many games due to this thing.


it's not that the peek into your opponents hand really cost you something. You dug one card deeper at least. I'm sure Timo boards out his Duress in this matchup

Still not convinced? I've talked with timo shunemann and watched hours of Adam Prosak's podcast to confirm the fact that you may cut probes and nothing will fall.
You suggest to cut preordain? You miss the fact that post board, the goal with ant is to find dread of night, slam into the board, and then win. To find it you need cantrips.


you still have at least 12 cantrips and 6 outs (in your build) to remove a hatebear. I guess that is more than enough.

Serra avenger survives too...yeah, great hatebear folks! I was talking about which hatebears we would be left with, if dread will hit the board...even mirran crusader and brimaz survive too if you like.


mistook it for "creatures in D&T that survive DoN" ... nevermind. :)

Empty the warrens is not so common as a sideboard card in ant. Finally they realized how bad it is.
If he has a fast EtW combo and also cabal therapy, we'll congrats...usually a normal human being doesn't have it all.
Even so, since our opponents has everything, I'll reply with this: eot tap vial for Stoneforge, get batterskull, untap, activate Stoneforge. Where is his therapy now? :)


At least that's only a turn 3 play ;P

P.S.: Sorry guys for riding the ANT vs D&T matchup for so long in this thread.

[Tormod]

Ok, so I figured out why Ghost Quarter works better in the Modern DnT build. Quite simply, its because the Modern DnT deck ramps with Noble Hierarch allowing you to play a turn 2 Leonin Arbiter followed by a Ghost Quarter while your opponent is on 1 land.

We don't have that line of play open here.

[Barbed Blightning]

Ok, so I figured out why Ghost Quarter works better in the Modern DnT build. Quite simply, its because the Modern DnT deck ramps with Noble Hierarch allowing you to play a turn 2 Leonin Arbiter followed by a Ghost Quarter while your opponent is on 1 land.

We don't have that line of play open here.
we would be playing Maverick if we did. [emoji4]

(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)

[Tylert]

Anyone knows when the final of the last SCG legacy open will be played?
Two SGC legacy opens in row won by D&T would be huge :)

[mrjumbo03]

DnT won.

[Tylert]

Nice!

[Technicolor Mage]

Would Moat be any good in this deck. I realize that it also stops us from ground and pound but some of us play a lot of fliers. It was probably already discussed but I can't seem to find where

[Finn]

There are a few reasons why I would not use it.

-It does not quite do what this deck needs. It may win some games by its sheer power, but it is an uncomfortable fit in a deck with ~20 ground creatures.
-The mana cost is slightly beyond the curve in D+T. This deck does have 23 land, but that includes Wastelands and Horizon Canopies. Plus it has Thalia. In Legacy, you would often die with the moat in your hand, unable to cast it.
-Dead against combo, including Show and Tell. It doesn't even attack.

Moat is not a terrible suggestion or anything, but in Legacy there are just so many powerful options that you really can't afford a luxury like Moat. Every card has to be a perfect fit. Even Miracles does not use this card. If there was a Legacy deck that could use Moat, that would be the one.

[cab0747]

Hello everyone!

I recently found Ports for a GREAT price and I need almost nothing else to finish DnT. Since it is a very powerful deck and I have really liked watching people play it, I have decided to pick up the rest of the pieces.

One question I have is about the Karakas count. It seems the number differs between 2 and 3 in almost all lists. Is 3 used when you are going with Mangara? In some matchups it is just great, but 3 seems high to me. Could someone clarify the reasoning for the 3rd Karakas?

Thanks!

[nevilshute]

Hello everyone!

I recently found Ports for a GREAT price and I need almost nothing else to finish DnT. Since it is a very powerful deck and I have really liked watching people play it, I have decided to pick up the rest of the pieces.

One question I have is about the Karakas count. It seems the number differs between 2 and 3 in almost all lists. Is 3 used when you are going with Mangara? In some matchups it is just great, but 3 seems high to me. Could someone clarify the reasoning for the 3rd Karakas?

Thanks!

I'm no expert with the deck but I remember when Death and Taxes were actually running the full set of 4 Karakas'. At that time Mangara was also a mainstay of the deck. When Mangara was cut is when I think most lists went down to playing just 3. I personally wouldn't want to go lower than 3. We have no way to tutor/dig for it, and Karakas is one of the reasons we have such a relatively strong game against decks like Sneak and Show and Reanimator. It's also pretty valuable in the mirror.

[dcosiem]

Hello everyone!

I recently found Ports for a GREAT price and I need almost nothing else to finish DnT. Since it is a very powerful deck and I have really liked watching people play it, I have decided to pick up the rest of the pieces.

One question I have is about the Karakas count. It seems the number differs between 2 and 3 in almost all lists. Is 3 used when you are going with Mangara? In some matchups it is just great, but 3 seems high to me. Could someone clarify the reasoning for the 3rd Karakas?

Thanks!

As logic goes or the meta follows, I believe for the reason for people's list to run 2 Karakas is either they can't afford to have a full set or that the lack of Show and Tell decks in the meta granted the less application of Karakas in their build. People ran 3 Karakas because they didn't want to have to deal with drawing them a lot of the times.

[cab0747]

As logic goes or the meta follows, I believe for the reason for people's list to run 2 Karakas is either they can't afford to have a full set or that the lack of Show and Tell decks in the meta granted the less application of Karakas in their build. People ran 3 Karakas because they didn't want to have to deal with drawing them a lot of the times.

Thank you for the reply.

There isn't much Show and Tell locally. I may start off with 2 and bump the number to 3 if I see the need.

[dcosiem]

Thank you for the reply.

There isn't much Show and Tell locally. I may start off with 2 and bump the number to 3 if I see the need.

The reason it played so many Karakas was because Mangara was a serious, good lock in legacy that if it is working, it can slowly change the game state to your favor significantly. It's kinda have the same impact as Counterbalance but possibly not as good. It's still good for us, and not the opponent.

I guess if you run 2 Karakas, it probably means you're not using Mangara in your deck. It's still good to use as catch fodder for Thalia and other legendary creature in your deck. I would run 3.

[Megadeus]

Anyone play a black splash or is that taboo here? I feel like shoring up a bad match up in elves is kinda nice as well as getting a powerful draw engine in Bob.

[The Duck!!]

Anyone play a black splash or is that taboo here? I feel like shoring up a bad match up in elves is kinda nice as well as getting a powerful draw engine in Bob.

It's not that it would be taboo but you'd be playing a different deck already if you'll splash black. You'll definitely put thoughtseize in your 75 if you plan to splash black


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[Richard Cheese]

It's not that it would be taboo but you'd be playing a different deck already if you'll splash black. You'll definitely put thoughtseize in your 75 if you plan to splash black


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See what I mean?

[raikenxy]

See what I mean?


In response to the black splash...

Black taxes was discussed in this forum a while ago, much like every other splash-able colors like green and red. Yes there are benefits to running a second color in death and taxes. You gain access to a wider card pool and arguably very powerful cards. When I was experimenting with the b/w vial version of deadguy ale the best inclusions were the obvious; Bob and Sculler. You also gain access to the powerful sideboard options of zealous persecution, perish, discard spells... etc.

However, in order to run a black splash... or any splash, is that your forced to do a couple obvious things.

1) Run fetch lands
2) Run more nonbasics

These two necessities for a dual color manabase have pronounced ripple effects on the rest of the deck. For the sake of not writing a long winded post i'll just list them below.

- opens you up to stifle
- makes your sideboard cards inefficient under thalia
- increased weakness to blood moon
- more vulnerable to waste land
- deck thinning
***this one I feel is very underrated. One of the problems with merfolk is that many of their cards are UU in casting cost. Fetch lands in folk effectively takes islands out of the deck, minimizing the risk of them drawing islands in the late game. However merfolk wants to draw islands. If they get hung up on one land and without an aether vial they have a hand full of un-castable cards. Death and taxes has the same problem. Many of the cards we run (crusader, brimaz, serra avenger, flickerwisp, councils judgment) all have WW in the casting cost. We need to draw plains, and having 8 non plains lands in our deck doesn't help fullfill the WW cost of those cards. Taking plains out of the deck (albeit to avoid flooding) with fetches is a double edged sword.

Running the dual mana base has its consequences. DnT as a monowhite decks preys upon decks that try to abuse mana as a win con. RUG Delver, painter, and sneak attack are overwhelmingly positive match ups for us. By running fetches and more nonbasics DnT opens itself up to the stifle/waste plan of RUG effectively giving them a more than reasonable chance of winning that match up. Secondly, painter and sneak attack both use blood moon as "i win" cards to attack the legacy metagame. There's no reason for us to give those decks a free win over us to add cards like thoughtseize and bob and sculler.

Dnt as a whole is a deck the relies on stability and synergy. None of the cards outside of stoneforge mystic are objectively powerful. The pieces of the deck work together to create an environment where our opponents deck cannot thrive. We are very much like RUG Delver in a sense, progressing our board while preventing the opponent from establishing theirs. Cards like Bob don't actively do that. Sculler would fit the Dnt game plan more then Bob does, and in my flirtation with black taxes that was the conclusion I came to as well. Bob was more a win more card. After I would deploy my thalia's, my stoneforges, my revokers... I would vial in my Bob and my opponents would just scoop. Bob was the last nail in the coffin, but he didn't actually do anything. Now keep in mind I am not argueing that Bob is not a good card, its arguably one of the most powerful creatures in magic and if left unchecked will just win you games. I am saying howerever it's not what Dnt needs.

All in all the monowhite build of Dnt is very unique towards it's success in the metagame. Running multiple colors actually weakens the deck and the decks ability to implement its game plan. So to answet the question originally I wouldn't say that a black splash (or any splash) is taboo; it's just been deemed inefficient/unnecessary by most DnT players.

[Richard Cheese]

In response to the black splash...

Black taxes was discussed in this forum a while ago, much like every other splash-able colors like green and red. Yes there are benefits to running a second color in death and taxes. You gain access to a wider card pool and arguably very powerful cards. When I was experimenting with the b/w vial version of deadguy ale the best inclusions were the obvious; Bob and Sculler. You also gain access to the powerful sideboard options of zealous persecution, perish, discard spells... etc.

However, in order to run a black splash... or any splash, is that your forced to do a couple obvious things.

1) Run fetch lands
2) Run more nonbasics

These two necessities for a dual color manabase have pronounced ripple effects on the rest of the deck. For the sake of not writing a long winded post i'll just list them below.

- opens you up to stifle
- makes your sideboard cards inefficient under thalia
- increased weakness to blood moon
- more vulnerable to waste land
- deck thinning
***this one I feel is very underrated. One of the problems with merfolk is that many of their cards are UU in casting cost. Fetch lands in folk effectively takes islands out of the deck, minimizing the risk of them drawing islands in the late game. However merfolk wants to draw islands. If they get hung up on one land and without an aether vial they have a hand full of un-castable cards. Death and taxes has the same problem. Many of the cards we run (crusader, brimaz, serra avenger, flickerwisp, councils judgment) all have WW in the casting cost. We need to draw plains, and having 8 non plains lands in our deck doesn't help fullfill the WW cost of those cards. Taking plains out of the deck (albeit to avoid flooding) with fetches is a double edged sword.

Running the dual mana base has its consequences. DnT as a monowhite decks preys upon decks that try to abuse mana as a win con. RUG Delver, painter, and sneak attack are overwhelmingly positive match ups for us. By running fetches and more nonbasics DnT opens itself up to the stifle/waste plan of RUG effectively giving them a more than reasonable chance of winning that match up. Secondly, painter and sneak attack both use blood moon as "i win" cards to attack the legacy metagame. There's no reason for us to give those decks a free win over us to add cards like thoughtseize and bob and sculler.

Dnt as a whole is a deck the relies on stability and synergy. None of the cards outside of stoneforge mystic are objectively powerful. The pieces of the deck work together to create an environment where our opponents deck cannot thrive. We are very much like RUG Delver in a sense, progressing our board while preventing the opponent from establishing theirs. Cards like Bob don't actively do that. Sculler would fit the Dnt game plan more then Bob does, and in my flirtation with black taxes that was the conclusion I came to as well. Bob was more a win more card. After I would deploy my thalia's, my stoneforges, my revokers... I would vial in my Bob and my opponents would just scoop. Bob was the last nail in the coffin, but he didn't actually do anything. Now keep in mind I am not argueing that Bob is not a good card, its arguably one of the most powerful creatures in magic and if left unchecked will just win you games. I am saying howerever it's not what Dnt needs.

All in all the monowhite build of Dnt is very unique towards it's success in the metagame. Running multiple colors actually weakens the deck and the decks ability to implement its game plan. So to answet the question originally I wouldn't say that a black splash (or any splash) is taboo; it's just been deemed inefficient/unnecessary by most DnT players.

Yes, the manabase is definitely weaker, although it's not like the mono-white version doesn't have its share of Wasteland targets. Stifle becomes more of a thing for sure, but so far I've found that Vial largely mitigates any attempts by other decks to attack the manabase. I run 6 fetches, 4 Scrublands, and 2 of each basic, and I've had very few issues with mana. Still, it's a non-zero number, so there's definitely a drawback. I think what you have to ask is whether the stuff you're adding is strong enough that you're willing to live with that new weakness. Personally I think it definitely is.

I think Black is able to address the two biggest problems the deck has: lack of card advantage and early disruption against combo. Bob may not seem like he synergizes well with the rest of the deck, but just by virtue of being a creature and a 2-drop, he fits in perfectly. The Horizon Canopies in D&T have always struck me as a kludgey solution to this issue. Turn one discard (I run 2 Thoughtseize, 2 IoK main and 4 Duress in the board) is primarily there to fight combo, but is usually huge against almost every deck in the format. It can be a crappy topdeck in the late game, but that's why I'm only running 4 pieces, plus Bob to fight dead draws. So far I've not dropped a game against storm combo thanks to early discard buying me a turn or two to establish a board. Vial + Sculler is also the business against Burning Wish (and Miracles).

That said, I don't think a black splash is necessarily better than mono white. I've had good results with it for the most part, but don't have nearly the same body of evidence the white version does, so at this point there's no way I could even think about making that claim. I do think it's a very good deck in its own right though, and as much as I want Deadguy to be a thing again, I just think this is the more appropriate forum based on how the deck plays. Especially with Mangara losing favor, the playstyle is really similar. My "told you so" comment is because in certain threads people seem very protective of their deck name, and insist that anything off-color or missing a specific card can't be called the same deck. My deck is obviously D&T with a black splash, but all I got when I posted about it here was "well then you aren't playing Death and Taxes". It's like when people claimed that anything not running the card "Pox" couldn't be called a Pox deck, or that Big Zoo isn't a Zoo deck.

[Megadeus]

Playing a variant of your list, it most certainly playsmore like death and taxes than dead guy. Simply for the fact that it is more creature based it pays similarly. I played the "mirror" today and it was an absolute grind fest

[raikenxy]

Yes, the manabase is definitely weaker, although it's not like the mono-white version doesn't have its share of Wasteland targets. Stifle becomes more of a thing for sure, but so far I've found that Vial largely mitigates any attempts by other decks to attack the manabase. I run 6 fetches, 4 Scrublands, and 2 of each basic, and I've had very few issues with mana. Still, it's a non-zero number, so there's definitely a drawback. I think what you have to ask is whether the stuff you're adding is strong enough that you're willing to live with that new weakness. Personally I think it definitely is.

I think Black is able to address the two biggest problems the deck has: lack of card advantage and early disruption against combo. Bob may not seem like he synergizes well with the rest of the deck, but just by virtue of being a creature and a 2-drop, he fits in perfectly. The Horizon Canopies in D&T have always struck me as a kludgey solution to this issue. Turn one discard (I run 2 Thoughtseize, 2 IoK main and 4 Duress in the board) is primarily there to fight combo, but is usually huge against almost every deck in the format. It can be a crappy topdeck in the late game, but that's why I'm only running 4 pieces, plus Bob to fight dead draws. So far I've not dropped a game against storm combo thanks to early discard buying me a turn or two to establish a board. Vial + Sculler is also the business against Burning Wish (and Miracles).

That said, I don't think a black splash is necessarily better than mono white. I've had good results with it for the most part, but don't have nearly the same body of evidence the white version does, so at this point there's no way I could even think about making that claim. I do think it's a very good deck in its own right though, and as much as I want Deadguy to be a thing again, I just think this is the more appropriate forum based on how the deck plays. Especially with Mangara losing favor, the playstyle is really similar. My "told you so" comment is because in certain threads people seem very protective of their deck name, and insist that anything off-color or missing a specific card can't be called the same deck. My deck is obviously D&T with a black splash, but all I got when I posted about it here was "well then you aren't playing Death and Taxes". It's like when people claimed that anything not running the card "Pox" couldn't be called a Pox deck, or that Big Zoo isn't a Zoo deck.

You have fair points, and I do remember the name-bashing you recieved a while back on this forum so I will sympathize with the "i told you so" comment you wrote before, intellectual discussion over deck theory is a lot more beneficial when the conversation I feel is civil and respectful; so please understand everyting I say is coming in that tone :).

I played the black splash myself for a bit and came to some of the conclusions I spoke about before based off my experience with the deck. If you'll bear with me I would love to elaborate more on those points and some of the ones you brought up in your reply.

A: Play style

I will concede that the decks do play out very similarly. Especially if running ports, you still make the same drops and decisions the majority of the time. Mom, Vial, Plowshares, equipment, Thalia, stoneforge, wasteland/port, revokers... all pieces of both decks that allowed Black taxes to function in very much the same way as monowhite death and taxes. You're still playing disruptive creatures; you're still taxing your opponents manabase; your still probably winning with wheenie beatdown or a batterskull; etc... etc... etc...

In this light yes, both Black Tax and DnT are very similar. Now as opposed to being the exact same deck, I'm not sure. The play styles of each are similar but Black Taxes and DnT each run different cards that allow for different decision tree's and card selections... very much like how all of the Delver Decks are structed. Tempo Decks in general all universally (at least to my knowledge) right now run very similar card choices which revolve around Delver, Daze, Wasteland, Ponder, Brainstorm, Force of Will... etc... RUG, BUG, and UWR Delver are all capable of playing the tempo strategy against their opponents as a viable path to victory. However as well all know each one of those decks have distinct differences that allow them either greater flexibilty or vulnerability against certain match-ups. RUG is the best out of the three at abusing stifle and is the most tempo oriented of the three. UWR is probably the stronger of the two in a fair metagame, having 8 pieces of removal to control the board and access to both true-name nemesis and stoneforge mystic means it has a much stronger mid-late game then RUG does. BUG Delver (team america) has access to abrupt decay, lilliana, and deathrite shaman. Deathrite is a much more proactive tempo card, accelerating the threats and disruption of BUG delver like Tnn/hymn/goyf/liliana while also being in and of itself probably the most powerful one drop in legacy.

Now in relation to black tax and DNT, I would say we are very similar in the ways that RUG and UWR are similar. Our game plans prevent the development of our opponents board by deploying cheap taxing creatures and taxing manabases. However like RUG and UWR we also have different tools at our disposal to end games. You run Sculler, Bob, thoughtseize mainboard which gives you an extra element of disruption while creating actual card advantage. Death and Taxes relies of creating "Virtual Card advantage" instead. By preventing an opponent from playing there cards efficiently under taxing effects we are slowing them down to the point where our board pressure kills them. When I played black tax most often Bob was the win condition. After stunting my opponents development and creating a board presence landing a Bob would seal the deal. There would be no way that my opponent would be able to keep up with the card draw.

You are correct in saying that by adding black you gain access to cards that create card advantage and early disruption. That is the by product of gaining more power from your land base. I do disagree though on your points of saying that death and taxes has no form of early disruption or card advantage.

B: Lack of disruption

By adding black you do gain thoughtseize, inquisition, duress, cabal therapy... all the great turn one discard spells. However, turn one, even with Black Tax, if I was on the play and playing against an unknown opponent if i was given the choice of playing either mother of runes, aether vial, or thoughtseize... im almost always just gonna play the aether vial first. If it's a fair deck I'd rather take the chance and play the vial which sets me up for the rest of the game then waste my turn one play discarding their turn one play. If it's a combo deck and I didn't lose on the spot... I got lucky and can proceed with my game. If I did lose on the spot then my opponent got lucky and drew the nut perfect turn one hand, things happen in life.

There really arent many combo decks in the metagame right now that DnT cares about too much. The only problem ones are turn 0 decks like belcher and Oops, and to a lesser extent TES. Dredge is a bitch to play against as well, but sideboard games are slightly better. And against all of those decks if they don't kill you on turn one... they are probably losing. Decks like ad nauseum, sneak attack, high tide, combo elves we have game against in the form of Ethersworn Cannonst, Grafdiggers cage, and enlightened tutor. These decks we will most likely live till turn two against, and we have very positive match ups sideboard wise against them just being monowhite (excluding elves, even I will admit the black tax version was much stronger versus elves).

To clarify everything; I'm not saying that the black disruption is better or worse, but that as a monowhite build we just don't need it as we are resolved to just waiting till turn two or playing a one cost artifact turn one.

C: Card Advantage

In terms of actual card advantage yes; DnT does not draw physical cards outside of builds with horizon canopy. Much like merfolk our deck is relatively redundant which mitigates the need to draw physical cards. Also, as I have stated already our deck creates "virtual card advantage" (sorry don't mean to sound like a broken record). Preventing the opponent from playing spells, or a game in general, is one of our solid routes to victory and the deck goes in on this concept hard. DnT is very much like rug in its ability to prevent opponents from developing, I've often laughed to myself about how very "tempo" like a dnt game can be when we go turn one vial, turn two port your land vial mom in end of turn, vial in a thalia waste your dual port your other land on turn 3. Granted that is a "nut hand" scenario, but many games are won like that.

Secondly, are deck does have many tricks that create card advantage. Noteably the inclusion of stoneforge mystic is itself a card that creates actual card advantage. Flickerwisping a stoneforge also creates card advantage, or an O-ring in response to an O-ring trigger to get multiple problem permanents. Its not blatant "drawing more cards"; but they are extra plays that often lead to blowouts. Also the recent inclusion of sword of fire and ice due to TNN is also actual card advantage.

D: Name-Shaming

It's probably not right to bash black taxes as just a deadguy deck. It does have a very similar play style and card selection as Dnt; however I would not believe it appropriate to post in this forum on its deck development. In fact I would proudly celebrate it as a new branch of the Dnt family tree. Black tax is in itself a unique creation, having greater power due to access to black mana while coming at the price of weaker mana base is just all forms of flavorful from a players perspective. But the decks are clearly different enough to warrant seperation. The power of Bob will hand down win games for Black Tax that DnT will most likely have to grind through for another twenty minutes, where as bob will probably win the game in half the time. In the same regard Death and Taxes won't lose so hard or as often to bloodmoon on turn one without a vial as black tax would ( which happened quite frequently to me sadly haha). Aether vial is a great tool to circumvent it, but so is just playing a lot of basic plains lol. Black tax easily has a stronger elves match up and I'm surevice versa for Dnt against some other decks in the meta.

So much like the delver decks Dnt and Black Tax are similar, but I would say they are different enough to be completely distinguished from each other. Saying that black tax is just "DNT splash black" i think would be a disservice to it as an emerging archetype. I also certaintly wouldn't want to stunt it's growth by discussing it in the mono white forum amongst a pool of players who are dead set on staying mono-white lol. Be proud of the similarities, but also be proud of each decks own uniqueness as well.

it's very late as i write this soplease excuse the grammer and lack of editing as I am quite tired lol, long night of legacy fnm tonight (got first with good ol monowhite ;) )

[Mr. Froggy]

I just picked up a Mufasa, playing it is as a one-of in place of one Crusader (dropped to two).

I like that he's Bolt proof and has incremental board presence.

[Brentane]

Hello. I am new to this site. You may have seen me on MTGSalvation. Once I found out The Source existed for Legacy, I jumped at the chance to sign up. My question for D&T is I can't decide if to have Brimaz, King of Oreskos in my deck. Should I have a 2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos + 2 Mirran Crusader split, or if I should just go for 4 Mirran Crusader? I don't have Karakas if that matters.

[mrjumbo03]

^There is no right or wrong answer. Basically depends on your meta (or the number of Abrupt Decays vis-a-vis Lightning bolts). Karakas does give you an extra layer of protection for Brimaz, which tilts the decision for me.

P.S. The discussion for DnT is much more active over at Salvation. I don't know why.

[Barook]

Personally, I find 4 beaters excessive. Overall, I like Crusader better in the current meta for various reasons, mainly because he can't be bounced by opposing Karakas, handling Batterskull like a pro, relevant protections and being nuts with equipment.

Brimaz is good against burn spells. That's it. Although I can see a justification in running him if Burn becomes more relevant. If you can't protect him with Karakas, that's even worse.

That said, I would rather run 3 Crusaders or a 2 Crusader/1 Brimaz split.

[Finn]

I don't have Karakas if that matters.
It definitely matters. Brimaz, like Spirit of the Labyrinth, has been peculiarly under-performing for a lot of players despite having such obvious beneficial traits. If you do not have any Karakas I think I just might skip him for now.

And welcome to The Source. This place is not nearly as caustic as it once was. I'm not sure how I feel about that notion. As I mention in the OP however, for this deck in particular - and possibly only for this deck - Salvation has always had the better discussion.

EDIT: Wow...double ninja strike on my post. Admit it. You guys just got to work too.

[Richard Cheese]

You have fair points, and I do remember the name-bashing you recieved a while back on this forum so I will sympathize with the "i told you so" comment you wrote before, intellectual discussion over deck theory is a lot more beneficial when the conversation I feel is civil and respectful; so please understand everyting I say is coming in that tone :).

I'm not going to quote the whole text wall, because I think your point is basically that D&T is fine as it is, and I more or less agree. I just think that the Black splash is not only viable, but because it has all the same "taxing" effects, the same virtual CA in Stoneforge, and plays mostly the same, that this is a better place to discuss it than the Deadguy thread. I have the same problems that aren't really relevant over there, what beaters/finishers to use, how to deal with decks where taxing doesn't really work, etc..

[raikenxy]

I'm not going to quote the whole text wall, because I think your point is basically that D&T is fine as it is, and I more or less agree. I just think that the Black splash is not only viable, but because it has all the same "taxing" effects, the same virtual CA in Stoneforge, and plays mostly the same, that this is a better place to discuss it than the Deadguy thread. I have the same problems that aren't really relevant over there, what beaters/finishers to use, how to deal with decks where taxing doesn't really work, etc..

and to answer your question I would have to say cut black lol. Which was another inherent flaw I found with the black tax strategy, the creatures your adding (Bob, Sculler) come at the expense of cards like flickerwisp, serra avenger, mirran crusader/brimaz. I'm not privy to what list your using but flickerwisp beating for 3 in the air more powerful then given credit for; it's one of the more aggresive cards in the whole deck. sculler and bob themselves don't exactly provide the same kind of offense.

[Richard Cheese]

and to answer your question I would have to say cut black lol. Which was another inherent flaw I found with the black tax strategy, the creatures your adding (Bob, Sculler) come at the expense of cards like flickerwisp, serra avenger, mirran crusader/brimaz. I'm not privy to what list your using but flickerwisp beating for 3 in the air more powerful then given credit for; it's one of the more aggresive cards in the whole deck. sculler and bob themselves don't exactly provide the same kind of offense.

I definitely have a love/hate relationship with Sculler. It can be amazing in some situations, like with Vial against Miracles, all the time vs. combo, or by exiling things that are normally resilient to discard; Punishing Fire, Loam, Lingering Souls. OTOH, a lot of times you get put in a position where you can't really attack or block with him because giving that card back would lead to a huge advantage.

When you mentioned Flickerwisp/O-ring shenanigans, I thought I might try those over Crusaders to get the same interaction with Sculler, but I think it's probably too much of a corner case. Haven't tested that much though. What I may do is try moving Scullers to the board in favor of better beaters, like Avenger. Probably Avenger because I'm weak enough to -x/-1 strategies already, although having access to Zealous Persecution in the board mitigates that somewhat. Brimaz I'm just not sold on yet.

[Rogan]

M15 possibly bringing us new tools?

Hushwing Gryff (2W)
Creature - Hippogriff

Flash

Flying

Creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger.

An overwhelming sense of calm accompanies the gryffs that wheel above the roofs of Gavony.

illus. John Severin Brassell # 15/2692/1

A Torpor Orb strapped to a flash flying 2/1 flying body? Seems pretty interesting.

2 colorless and a single white make casting this relatively easy but Flickerwisp and Stoneforge Mystic might not be a fan of this guy. Also being another X/1 makes us even more vulnerable to the hate people already bring in against us.

Thoughts?

[Barbed Blightning]

Aven Mindcensor is one-sided, more effective and still not widely accepted. This is not a card we will ever be using.

[nevilshute]

I think we have to ask ourselves, what EtB triggers are relevant among the tier 1 decks in legacy. Now, off the top of my mind, the following creatures come to mind: Stoneforge Mystic, Craterhoof Behemoth and to a lesser extent Snapcaster Mage, Elvish Visionary and... Flickerwisp I guess.

Against Elves this could be very nice, but at 3CMC it suffers the same issue as Aven Mindcensor. If we aren't dead (or dead in the water) by our third turn then Mindcensor hoses elves reasonably too but it also serves a better alround hosing purpose against nearly the whole field than this.

Are Snapcaster decks a problem? I'd say no.

And we haven't even discussed how badly this card potentially hits ourselves, shutting off both Stoneforge and Flickerwisp.

Too bad :frown: