[Deck] Death and Taxes

[from Cairo]

And we haven't even discussed how badly this card potentially hits ourselves, shutting off both Stoneforge and Flickerwisp.

Right on. If it was "Opponents' creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger," I don't even think it would be a valuable replacement for current slots. As printed it nulls 7-8 of our cards which is likely more than most Opponents.

It's a cool hatebear, probably interesting in Modern where it attacks Twin's ETB Untaps and Pod being a deck full of ETBs. The card of ours that it hurts the most is banned in Stoneforge Mystic.

[Finn]

Considering that they got the power level essentially perfect with Aven Mindcensor (in the sense that it sees plenty of play, but is not a sure bet), it seems strange that they would nerf this guy who is a reflection of it. Or is Mindcensor really that good in Modern?

[HammafistRoob]

This guy is better than Mindcensor in Modern, but in Legacy? Not so much :(.

EDIT- What cards do we have outside of like Mindcenor, Spirit of Lab, and Ratchet Bomb to help fight Elves?

[Barook]

EDIT- What cards do we have outside of like Mindcenor, Spirit of Lab, and Ratchet Bomb to help fight Elves?
Canonist can slow them down, especially with Mom back-up.

Grafdigger's Cage ruins their search engine, but doesn't slow their draw down.

[dcosiem]

Did anyone see this guy?

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Hushwing-Gryff-M15-Visual-Spoiler.jpg

Wizards' keeps coming up with more insane cards for white to be pretty much balance or go toe to toe with any deck in legacy. I'm so surprise that I think this deck doesn't really have a weakness anymore in terms of it's power and tools it can use.

[bakofried]

Finally, a way to turn your pesky Stoneforge Mystics into the Squires they long to be!

[Mr. Froggy]

Did anyone see this guy?

http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Hushwing-Gryff-M15-Visual-Spoiler.jpg

Wizards' keeps coming up with more insane cards for white to be pretty much balance or go toe to toe with any deck in legacy. I'm so surprise that I think this deck doesn't really have a weakness anymore in terms of it's power and tools it can use.

This is obviously a Modern card as a hoser for Twin.

I don't feel it for Legacy D&T, it hurts us way too much.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Hello fellow sourcers,

I'm planning on playing other legacy decks in order to grow as a legacy player. Death and Taxes is one of those decks I am planning on learning how to play. What is the most stock version of death and taxes that you guys would recommend to a new death and taxes player?

[Barbed Blightning]

Hello fellow sourcers,

I'm planning on playing other legacy decks in order to grow as a legacy player. Death and Taxes is one of those decks I am planning on learning how to play. What is the most stock version of death and taxes that you guys would recommend to a new death and taxes player?
As a seasoned D&Ter,


4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

4 Waste
4 Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern
11 Plains

[Dragonslayer_90]

As a seasoned D&Ter,


4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Flickerwisp
3 Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

4 Waste
4 Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern
11 Plains

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.

[HammafistRoob]

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.

Do you have an expected metagame? It can change the sideboard drastically with this deck, the only mainstays for me no matter what are 2-3 Rest in Peace, 2 Cataclysm, 1 Manriki Gusari, and 1-2 Graff Cage. I'm also not a fan of Cavern of Souls since the re-addition of Serra Avenger. It can make her really hard to cast if you drop Cavern on Human/Artificer and you start drawing Avengers. I am liking the idea of 2 Horizon Canopy along with 10 plains and the usual suspects(23 land).

[Barbed Blightning]

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.
2-3 RIP (too good not to run)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cage
1-2 Pithing Needle (Top, Thespian's Stage, etc)
1-2 wilt leaf liege
1-2 extra creature kill
1-2 disenchant effects

It's worth noting that the last two have some overlap thanks to Council's Judgment. I like the one of Path I've seen in recent sideboards also.

The sideboard is where the real fun begins I think. Adapting the deck to your metagame will send you on a journey of discovery as you sift through years of old hate cards to find something like Holy Light. My notes are more geared for an Open meta, so take it with a grain of salt. I'll be more than happy to answer any other questions you may have![emoji3]

@Roob: I used to hate cavern, but if you have a meta filled with counterbalance it is the best land in the deck. Besides, it's for forcing through powerful cards, like Thalia, Crusader or Mom. Plus Wisp can reset it.

Canopy is best for a combo meta where you want to dig for hate. Eiganjo Castle is good vs red decks. However,I would insist that we stick with as many plains as possible to keep our dominance over the Delver decks (and POP can still hit hard on occasion)

[Barook]

Thanks Barbed Blightning! What sideboard cards do you think are absolutely essential? Don't need a whole 15 but I just want a skeleton of the deck with some sb slots.

1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1-2 E-Tutors (if that is your thing)
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Piece
other meta slots

I stopped running Cavern a while ago. Being uncounterable isn't as important as having a rock-solid manabase. Too often, I couldn't activate my Stoneforges or cast my :w::w: stuff due to Cavern. It's also another Wasteland target. I would rather run 1 Canopy.

And I have yet to hear why people are running lists with only 3 Flickerwisps. It's THE workhorse of the deck and it has won me countless games, especially in combination with Vials. Sure, sometimes it's just a 3/1 flyer that untaps one of your lands, but the raw power of Flickerwisp tricks far outweight that.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it! I'm not building a D&T list for a specific metagame, at least once I go back to school. Where I am for the summer I can play anything because they do 75 proxy. Once summer is done though I'm back to being limited to what I actually own. Sadly don't have rishadan ports and multiple karakas. In the near future I may bring it to the LGS I currently play at, but I'll probably play the deck on cockatrice for a bit first. By the way, what should I know about Elves? I hear it's the worse matchup for the deck. Does play even matter in that MU?

[Barbed Blightning]

Thanks for all the input guys I really appreciate it! I'm not building a D&T list for a specific metagame, at least once I go back to school. Where I am for the summer I can play anything because they do 75 proxy. Once summer is done though I'm back to being limited to what I actually own. Sadly don't have rishadan ports and multiple karakas. In the near future I may bring it to the LGS I currently play at, but I'll probably play the deck on cockatrice for a bit first. By the way, what should I know about Elves? I hear it's the worse matchup for the deck. Does play even matter in that MU?
Play always matters. D&T can beat any deck. However, Elves escapes our pseudo-control rather easily since they play the one angle we can't attack: spamming creatures. Their mana ramp also shrugs off our, by comparison, feeble attempts to constrict it.

However, there are some things we can do, such as:

Sticking a Jitte on a dude ASAP. Next priority equipment is SoFI.

Revoker on Heritage Druid, Symbiote, then whatever hurts the most in that order.

Even Thalia can do work. She's not priority, but if they appear to be stumbling on mana, toss her into the ring.

Mindcensor is a brutal hate card. Turn 3 he should be coming down, or at the very least in response to something.

Finally, remember that Flickerwisp is a versatile tool. When sideboarding, do no cut them first (Thalia and Avenger are my first picks). Remember that you can flicker blockers to get a Jitte activation, disrupt a Druid trio, lessen a Hoof trigger's count and deprive them of a crucial land or permanent for a turn.

[HammafistRoob]

]
@Roob: I used to hate cavern, but if you have a meta filled with counterbalance it is the best land in the deck. Besides, it's for forcing through powerful cards, like Thalia, Crusader or Mom. Plus Wisp can reset it.
I don't like this logic, I'm sorry. If you want to force through powerful cards with a one of in a 0 cantrip deck, playing a 1-of land is like trying to live in a pipe dream. I feel like you will lose more games because of Cavern than you will win, especially since counter spells don't really bother us most of the time anyways. I feel like in Legacy, if you're playing a non-blue deck, your 1-ofs have to be really high impact with very little downside to be worth playing at all. I just don't like the idea of a bad Vial #5 that can randomly make your manabase very susceptible to Wasteland with very little upside. It's basic mathematics really, how often it actually helps you versus how often it hurts you. I'm not saying that playing it is 100% wrong, but I feel like it doesn't pull its weight to desrve a slot as a 1-of. Please just try playing 2 Canopy for at least 20ish matches and tell me it has been consistently terrible. I've just never been a fan of cards that can be rarely amazing, but at the same time less than stellar on average. Also keep in mind that my opinion is based on how many double white cards are in the 75 you choose to play. I do have more WW cards than most lists I've seen around, I play 3 Serra, 3 Crusader, and usually 1 Mangara plus 2 Cataclysm in the board (Forgive the rambling, slightly intoxicated over here:)).

EDIT @ Barbed- I feel like the most compelling argument you came up with in your brief response to me is that it can be reset with Flickerwisp. Sure, that is definitely bound to come up eventually. But if you're as experienced with D&T as I think you are, you should know that ~90% of the time you're Flickering your own stuff, you're in a fairly good / really good position to win anyway. Premature Flickering is a sign of a weak/inexperienced D&T player in my opinion, because he is one of the few ways we have to blow open an even game/board state, among other things. As a general rule, I've adopted the no Flicker rule. Basically, you don't want to Flicker unless you are getting supreme value out of him, or increasing your clock by at least a turn. There will obviously be exceptions to this self coined rule depending on the matchup and/or gamestate you find yourself in, but we don't play the card because it's a 3/1 flier, we play the card because of it's versatility.

Looking forward to your reply, I will be on this deck if I choose to play at the SCG this weekend (money is really tight at the moment). I've been crushing my locals every time I play this deck (against a lot of very good Legacy specialists). It's either because I haven't played the same deck practically ever or it's because this deck is as powerful as I think it is.

[Finn]

When sideboarding, do no cut them first (Thalia and Avenger are my first picks). I do this too as it leaves in the most disruption. But damn if it doesn't prevent me from switching to offense. All my creatures left are too tiny. Ya gotta get lucky and draw a Crusader or a Mystic to even attack. I suppose it is just a symptom of "friggin' Elves!" syndrome.

[Barbed Blightning]

I do this too as it leaves in the most disruption. But damn if it doesn't prevent me from switching to offense. All my creatures left are too tiny. Ya gotta get lucky and draw a Crusader or a Mystic to even attack. I suppose it is just a symptom of "friggin' Elves!" syndrome.
The way I see it, if you are trading dudes for dudes it's still hurting your opponent (that being said, it does suck if you attack with say Revoker). Fortunately Canonist has a little bit of beefy on her, though.

@DS90: I forgot to list sideboarded cards. I would use:

2 Canonist
1-2 Cage
1-2 Needle (Symbiote>Ranger>DRS)
1 Path(risky), Sunlance, even councils judgment

Turn one cage, turn two Canonist, turn three SFM into jitte is your godplay.

[entreri_fans]

Hi, guys! I'm new to the deck. I want to get some idea to fight 12 post. that match up is tough, especially they needle on our wasteland. perhaps we just give up mana control plan and cast all our dudes as fast as possible?

thanks for any suggestions.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hi, guys! I'm new to the deck. I want to get some idea to fight 12 post. that match up is tough, especially they needle on our wasteland. perhaps we just give up mana control plan and cast all our dudes as fast as possible?

thanks for any suggestions.
Aven Mindcensor is a boss. Beyond that:

Revoker on Candelabra, Top, Expedition Map in that order of priority. Beware Karn in their board.

Mangara of Corondor is stupid good unless the Crop up a Karakas.

Needle from the board goes on Eye of Ugin, Thespian's Stage or Karakas (because you cannot profit by Emrakul bouncing that deck). Karn Liberated too, but ideally you save a Revoker for that. Name Misty Rainforest if you want some lulz.

Ghost Quarter is also good if you run it and Cataclysm is great at busting their balls (obviously Armageddon's better).

Repeal can hurt, so keep in your Mom and Thalia. Drop Serra Avenger, but do not drop Crusader since he beefs through Prime Time. Drop Jitte, maybe even Batterskull.

It's still a bad matchup, but I am sure there are more specific hate cards we can run.

[Finn]

Yes there are.

I have successfully used a single Winter Orb in my Enlightened Tutor sideboard to retard the development of 12-post long enough to win with Avengers and company. If you can do anything to slow them down (your usual tools are insufficient which is why it is a hard matchup), a hatchet like Cataclysm or Armageddon will finish the job. Most of the best tools are not in the main. Mangara is the only good answer in the main of some decks in fact. It is no wonder the matchup is hard.

Also note that a well placed Surgical Extraction on Cloud Post can put you in command early. But who even uses that card?

[entreri_fans]

wow, thanks guys, I will be trying your suggestions:smile:

[Bahra]

I'm curious to hear if any of you have tested Flagstones of Troikar and how they have been performing for you.

I've played 3 Flagstones 7 plains for about 6 months now and I've been liking them, there's definite downsides but the cost of running them is generally very low.

Upsides:

Thins the deck (extremely minor upside)
Sometimes people wasteland it because they're unfamiliar with the card
Fantastic with Cataclysm


Downsides

Feeds Deathrite Shaman in multiples
Vulnerable to Back to Basics (which is terrible against you to begin with)
Vulnerable to Blood Moon (which is also not very effective against you)
Wastelandable land with Rest in Peace in play


Might've missed some downsides but this is what comes to mind. The downsides very rarely comes up so I've been considering going up to 4x. I've also considered cutting them entirely since I've been playing with them for so long that I don't remember what it's like to play without them.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm curious to hear if any of you have tested Flagstones of Troikar and how they have been performing for you.

I've played 3 Flagstones 7 plains for about 6 months now and I've been liking them, there's definite downsides but the cost of running them is generally very low.

Upsides:

Thins the deck (extremely minor upside)
Sometimes people wasteland it because they're unfamiliar with the card
Fantastic with Cataclysm


Downsides

Feeds Deathrite Shaman in multiples
Vulnerable to Back to Basics (which is terrible against you to begin with)
Vulnerable to Blood Moon (which is also not very effective against you)
Wastelandable land with Rest in Peace in play


Might've missed some downsides but this is what comes to mind. The downsides very rarely comes up so I've been considering going up to 4x. I've also considered cutting them entirely since I've been playing with them for so long that I don't remember what it's like to play without them.
Well, in the mirror match, Flagstones gives opposing Mindcensors more reason to stick around.

Let's not forget that the burn matchup is still scary--scarier if you include Flagstones.

The cataclysm (or Armageddon) argument I'll give you, but the others hardly support the choice of card. Nobody is going to wasteland your Flagstones unless they are a complete invalid. It'd be like Ghost Quartering a Plains.

Thinning is similarly weak, but you already have admitted so.

Basically, despite our supposedly solid manabase, well over half of our lands are usually nonbasic. I see no good reason to further weaken ourselves to Blood Moon, POP or B2B for an ultimately fringe benefit off a land that provides no disruptive or true ramping ability.

[Bahra]

Well, in the mirror match, Flagstones gives opposing Mindcensors more reason to stick around.

Let's not forget that the burn matchup is still scary--scarier if you include Flagstones.

The cataclysm (or Armageddon) argument I'll give you, but the others hardly support the choice of card. Nobody is going to wasteland your Flagstones unless they are a complete invalid. It'd be like Ghost Quartering a Plains.

Thinning is similarly weak, but you already have admitted so.

Basically, despite our supposedly solid manabase, well over half of our lands are usually nonbasic. I see no good reason to further weaken ourselves to Blood Moon, POP or B2B for an ultimately fringe benefit off a land that provides no disruptive or true ramping ability.

Well in Europe there's almost no Blood Moons, PoPs or B2Bs but there's a ton of miracles. I think the decision of whether or not to run them is close but they've won me more games than I've lost with them I feel like.

[Barbed Blightning]

Well in Europe there's almost no Blood Moons, PoPs or B2Bs but there's a ton of miracles. I think the decision of whether or not to run them is close but they've won me more games than I've lost with them I feel like.
How do they win games? In no way can they attack, put dudes into play (aside from their obvious way) or fetch up hate/equipment.

You deck and skill won you those games. I can see no way for Flagstones to be a relevant factor.

[Bahra]

How do they win games? In no way can they attack, put dudes into play (aside from their obvious way) or fetch up hate/equipment.

You deck and skill won you those games. I can see no way for Flagstones to be a relevant factor.

That is such a terrible response. They won me games indirectly. In many games I've cast cataclysm with a flagstones of troikar in play and no Æther Vial so after Cataclysm I have 2 lands to their 1 and I can still cast most of my spells even without drawing additional lands.

That's how they've won me games.

[Barbed Blightning]

That is such a terrible response. They won me games indirectly. In many games I've cast cataclysm with a flagstones of troikar in play and no Æther Vial so after Cataclysm I have 2 lands to their 1 and I can still cast most of my spells even without drawing additional lands.

That's how they've won me games.
Still seems too narrow. It'd be like me running Strionic Resonator and claiming that it is worth including because it copies Flickerwisp or Jitte triggers and has won me games as a result. Maybe it has, but the benefit is narrow and the card could easily be replaced by better, more impactful cards.

Also, it isn't a "terrible response." The card doesn't do much of anything most of the time, except the occasional profit off LD and helping you get locked out against nonbasic hate.

Like I said above, you won those games not because of Flagstones but because of your skill with the deck and, obviously, the power of Cataclysm. The game was likely over once you resolved that spell and because you knew when to drop it, not because of some paltry land. Don't delude yourself by believing otherwise.

[Pans-Advocate]

Cataclysm has won me enough games recently that I've been considering Flagstones, but that's not good reasoning when I think about it a second time, because those games are already won when I resolve the Cataclysm. And there are real downsides to running Flagstones. The first time a Delver opponent races you by Wasting it during your upkeep and taking you off Flickerwisp or Jitte mana for that one crucial turn, or a Painter deck Moons your Flagstones/Waste/Karakas draw, you will hate the card and never run it again. The upside is tiny when you consider how easy it should be to set up a fatal Cataclysm without needing your lands replaced.

[Syntex]

As a miracles player I have a hard time with this matchup. Between Thalia, vials and SFM I find it hard to keep the board clear. I wanted to asked the seasoned D&T players here what cards have hurt you the most when you played against miracles.

I am really liking Izzet Staticaster over the sulfur elemental. He can block easier, kills revokers, and doesn't beef up your angels/SFMs for more beats. I am also running 2 EE as well. What other cards have you seen sided in against you that have worked well?




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[Barook]

Pithing Needle for key cards is a nuisance. As is stuff like EE and Wear/Tear or more mass removal in general.

[Pans-Advocate]

Staticaster and Sulfur Elemental are both really nasty, and Needling Vial can force us to play the game Miracles wants to play, which is usually 50%+ in Mracles' favor. The last time I lost to a sideboard card out of Miracles, though, it was Keranos, God of Storms. That card can be very difficult to beat if it comes down against anything less than a board that threatens a 1-2 turn clock. Admittedly I have no idea whether it is good enough to be worth a slot in an open meta, but it's always seemed insane when it gets played against me.

[_erbs_]

hello,
its been awhile since i played mtg and seeing the meta right now, i would like to ask you guys some questions about DT..
1. how effective is the mana denial plan right now.. running 4 wasteland 4 rishadan ports.
2. aven mindcensor seem to have to its value increased in terms of its use as compared to before. but normally i just see 1-2 pcs in decks running it ??
3. how effective is councils judgement as compared to oring ?, oring can be tutored so you could get it faster as compared to councils judgement.
4. ive been seeing main deck flagstones, why not run horizon canopy over flagstone.. is it bec of cataclysm ? is cataclysm really effective now ??

thanks in advance

[BearsandSquires]

[QUOTE=Bahra;821671]

Been trying 2 main deck council's judgements like bahra had discussed on stream and have come to like them though they can sometimes be awkward.

[Syntex]

In response to the mana denial plan it works rather well. When I test miracles vs my friends D&T deck he has no problems locking me out of white mana with wasteland on duals and ports on basics. This really lets him do more with vial as an EoT SFM into playing the equip with no real answer to it is a pain.


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[lordofthepit]

I don't have much experience with this deck, but I've tried a few Flagstones because I didn't have enough Beta Plains to run this deck. I think the negligible downsides slightly outweigh the (even more negligible) upsides, but if you even have one Pox player in your local meta, that might be enough to tip the balance.

[Pans-Advocate]

hello,
its been awhile since i played mtg and seeing the meta right now, i would like to ask you guys some questions about DT..
1. how effective is the mana denial plan right now.. running 4 wasteland 4 rishadan ports.
2. aven mindcensor seem to have to its value increased in terms of its use as compared to before. but normally i just see 1-2 pcs in decks running it ??
3. how effective is councils judgement as compared to oring ?, oring can be tutored so you could get it faster as compared to councils judgement.
4. ive been seeing main deck flagstones, why not run horizon canopy over flagstone.. is it bec of cataclysm ? is cataclysm really effective now ??

thanks in advance

The mana denial plan has to be effective or the deck will not consistently place. It's pivotal and one of the most relevant reasons why the deck is relevant or competitive. The deck appears to be consistently placing, so odds are mana denial is pretty decent.

Mindcensor is a card that sounded less than impressive to me when I was first playing the deck, but having actually run 2 for a while recently I have come to really appreciate it. It doesn't have the raw impact of almost any other creature in the deck because it has a nonrepeatable effect, but it pulls its weight when I draw it so I've decided to stick with it. It still falls into the flex slot category where you can run pretty much any decent 2 or 3 drop role player and be fine though.

I've never felt comfortable tutoring for O-Ring, between Tutor being card disadvantage and O-Ring being removable via Decay, Wear/Tear, etc. I've been running a 1-1 split between O-Ring and Judgment in my board (I don't think 3-mana sorcery speed removal is a maindeck card in a Thalia deck) and switching the Ring out for the second Judgment has looked better and better to me recently.

Cataclysm is insane and you don't need Flagstoes for it to be good. I run 2 Cataclysm and 0 Flagstones and I'm happy with both. Then again I don't see a lot of Smallpox decks around, and I do see Burn and Blood Moon decks.

[Barook]

How about an update to the primer on the first page?

It even still has Judge's Familiar and only 2 Revokers, for crying out loud.

[Barbed Blightning]

How about an update to the primer on the first page?

It even still has Judge's Familiar and only 2 Revokers, for crying out loud.
You'll probably have to PM Finn about that

[_erbs_]

The mana denial plan has to be effective or the deck will not consistently place. It's pivotal and one of the most relevant reasons why the deck is relevant or competitive. The deck appears to be consistently placing, so odds are mana denial is pretty decent.

Mindcensor is a card that sounded less than impressive to me when I was first playing the deck, but having actually run 2 for a while recently I have come to really appreciate it. It doesn't have the raw impact of almost any other creature in the deck because it has a nonrepeatable effect, but it pulls its weight when I draw it so I've decided to stick with it. It still falls into the flex slot category where you can run pretty much any decent 2 or 3 drop role player and be fine though.

I've never felt comfortable tutoring for O-Ring, between Tutor being card disadvantage and O-Ring being removable via Decay, Wear/Tear, etc. I've been running a 1-1 split between O-Ring and Judgment in my board (I don't think 3-mana sorcery speed removal is a maindeck card in a Thalia deck) and switching the Ring out for the second Judgment has looked better and better to me recently.

Cataclysm is insane and you don't need Flagstoes for it to be good. I run 2 Cataclysm and 0 Flagstones and I'm happy with both. Then again I don't see a lot of Smallpox decks around, and I do see Burn and Blood Moon decks.

Hello,
Thanks for the response, i've tried playing the current DT slightly modified, it felt more like a midrange white weenie of some sort.... the tricks are almost gone. Maybe its bec. of the list i ran thats why i felt it that way. Since im in the testing mode i made the deck like this.

Lands [23]
4 wasteland
4 rishadan ports
2 horizon canopy
3 karakas
10 plains

Spell [11]
4 aether vial
4 stp
1 bskull
1 sofi
1 jitte

Creatures [26]
4 mother of runes
3 thalia
3 phyrexian revoker
2 spirit of the labyrinth
3 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
2 mirran crusader
1 brimaz
3 flickerwisp
2 aven mindcensor

the test was somewhat okay though i feel something is missing or im just not used to the new dt which plays more aggro over the one with 3 mangara.

some notes:
when your up against a slow deck or an opponent who runs brainstorm or dark confidant and he doesnt expect you to have spirit of the labyrinth and your line of play is MOM > labyrinth, its good the damage it provides seems fast enough for your other creatures to finish the game.. having that said at times revoker seem to be somewhat a weak card and the deck just dies to pyroclasm or any -1/-1 effects..

i know revoker is a very very good card as it could stop lots of cards like sensei top and liliana the most common targets, but without a way to clear the board they just stand at the back similar to what mom does.., labyrinth is almost similar but atleast it could kill a mongoose but thats irrelevant, i just feel the current list seems to lack the creature toughness as most of our creatures has a toughness as 1.

then when your opponent lands a sulfur elemental and you have no councils judgement or stp or somesort of removal , your deck just stop and die.

have you guys ever tested Ajani, Caller of the Pride or something similar, i know it would seem off forcing DT to play faster as DT is a control deck, but without the mangara lock and the changes of the legend rule, controlling your opponents board seems harder to do, before if your opponent has a jitte just play jitte to destroy it now a online jitte is problematic for DT.

i know my deck isnt the typical current DT but i feel its close enough to what the current is.

oh the 2 horizon canopy for me is nice as compared to flagstones

I was thinking maybe DT should play like a tempo game... and not control your opponent as to what it does before... ?? what do you think ?, White Tempo hahaha ??

[Barbed Blightning]

Thinking about the following sideboard; since Council's Judgment gives us a lot of flexibility, I am considering reincorporating the tutor board:

2 E Tutor
2 Judgment
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 RiP
1 Cage
1 Needle
1 CoP: Red
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

[Jungian Thing]

Thinking about the following sideboard; since Council's Judgment gives us a lot of flexibility, I am considering reincorporating the tutor board:

2 E Tutor
2 Judgment
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 RiP
1 Cage
1 Needle
1 CoP: Red
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

One short...Cage? SoLaS?

[Barbed Blightning]

One short...Cage? SoLaS?
Path to Exile or Sunlance, probably. Chalice and Sphere of Resistance are both viable options, though.

[Pans-Advocate]

I would never leave home without 1 Cataclysm with Miracles at its current position in the meta, and honestly I'd much rather find room for a second. I also think Ratchet Bomb and Manriki-Gusari have really earned their slots. My board right now is:

2 Rest In Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (probably becoming a second Judgment)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I feel a little spread thin, specifically in terms of not having a second Canonist and having no additional cheap removal (read: removal for Delvers) to bring in. But I've been running pretty hot recently and every single card I'm playing has proven its worth several times over at this point (excepting possibly the COP: Red which replaced the second Canonist as a response to a surge of Burn in my local meta ... I know there are a ton of Sulfuric Vortexes around me so I pack the COP, but I've been dodging them somehow). The COP: Red, the Spirit of the Labyrinth, and the Oblivion Ring feel like the only remotely negotiable slots to me. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in, but I'm not sure what I could cut.

For reference, my maindeck is pretty stock, with 22 land (1 Canopy, 3 Karakas, 10 Plains) and a 3/3/2/2/1 split on Wisp/Avenger/Mirran/Mindcensor/Spirit. The maindeck Spirit has ended enough game-1s on the spot that I'm keeping it in ... nobody plays around it when Brainstorming in G1 anymore.

[Barbed Blightning]

I would never leave home without 1 Cataclysm with Miracles at its current position in the meta, and honestly I'd much rather find room for a second. I also think Ratchet Bomb and Manriki-Gusari have really earned their slots. My board right now is:

2 Rest In Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Wilt-Leaf Leige
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring (probably becoming a second Judgment)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

I feel a little spread thin, specifically in terms of not having a second Canonist and having no additional cheap removal (read: removal for Delvers) to bring in. But I've been running pretty hot recently and every single card I'm playing has proven its worth several times over at this point (excepting possibly the COP: Red which replaced the second Canonist as a response to a surge of Burn in my local meta ... I know there are a ton of Sulfuric Vortexes around me so I pack the COP, but I've been dodging them somehow). The COP: Red, the Spirit of the Labyrinth, and the Oblivion Ring feel like the only remotely negotiable slots to me. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in, but I'm not sure what I could cut.

For reference, my maindeck is pretty stock, with 22 land (1 Canopy, 3 Karakas, 10 Plains) and a 3/3/2/2/1 split on Wisp/Avenger/Mirran/Mindcensor/Spirit. The maindeck Spirit has ended enough game-1s on the spot that I'm keeping it in ... nobody plays around it when Brainstorming in G1 anymore.

Honestly, the Miracles matchup is already pretty damn good preboard. Unlike most creature archetypes in Legacy, we have an abundance of creatures that can serve as a clock, and cards like Revoker and Mom can give the Miracles opponent a real headache (esp. if they are struggling to find a Terminus). Post board, I'd sooner cut my StPs and my Jitte for 2 Canonist (or 1/1 Canonist/Spirit), 2 Judgment, 1 Needle. Canonist/Spirit increases our density further and provides marginal disruption. Needle stops Top. Judgment deals with problematic bullshit like Humility, Moat, Ensaring Bridge, CB, JTMS, whathaveyou. Or vote for Top if they didn't save it.

As far as Manriki is concerned, you already have Council's Judgment, which is less narrow in application. The mirror is the only matchup where MG is strictly better but even then you want to be addressing your opponents threats with more removal and shutting down their Vial especially if you do not have one of your own.

Ratchet Bomb has some merit as a Tutor target and is good vs Miracles as an out to Angel tokens. However I fail to see the overall use. Beyond maybe Elves and Belcher, I don't know when I'd ever want to bring in the card. It just does not feel like a Legacy card to me--this coming from someone playing a deck of atypical Legacy cards to begin with.

I think I will shave a tutor for more business, resulting in the following SB:

2 RIP
2 Liege
2 Canonist
2 Judgment
1 Tutor
1 Spirit
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 CoP: Red
1 Cursed Totem/Ensnaring Bridge
1 Path to Exile

My main deck will look something akin to this:

4 Wasteland
4 Port
3 Karakas
10 Plains
1 Canopy
1 Cavern

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 SFM
3 Wisp
3 Avenger
2 Crusader
1 Mindcensor
1 Spirit

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 SoFI

[Plague Sliver]

First time poster on this thread. I've tested intermittently with D&T recently, and have been extremely impressed with it. My first experience was negative, and was not representative of D&T. I played the hatebear version of the deck with Leonin Arbiter, Spirit, Flagstones and Ghost Quarters, and with no Serra Avengers. I didn't practice at all, and faced D&T all day. Making mistakes left and right was entirely my fault.

But since then, I've gained an appreciation for the stock lists. They've been remarkably consistent. The deck is clearly a metagame choice that preys on certain well known strategies.

I haven't read all the pages, and I'm hoping some D&T regulars can chime in on these (basic) questions:

1. What can this deck do vs. Elves? Do we just accept that it is a bad match-up? Is there something better than Spirit + Canonist, or the controversial black splash?

2. I read somewhere that European superstar Thomas E. says D&T is favored against Miracles. Is this true? If so, am I just playing the deck wrong or is it much better with Council's Judgment and Pithing Needle? It seems to me that in control vs. control, Miracles has more staying power. Is D&T meant to be the beatdown, and if so, what changes post-sideboard will help this?

3. European storm aficionado Lemnear suggested Mindbreak Trap as a potential way to stop the turn 1 kills. Is this something that folks have tested for surprise value, or as a limited answer to Elves? Admittedly, most storm decks play Gitaxian Probe for information, but it could be a good buffer tool in the absence of Thalias 5 through 8.

Thanks in advance guys!

[Barbed Blightning]

First time poster on this thread. I've tested intermittently with D&T recently, and have been extremely impressed with it. My first experience was negative, and was not representative of D&T. I played the hatebear version of the deck with Leonin Arbiter, Spirit, Flagstones and Ghost Quarters, and with no Serra Avengers. I didn't practice at all, and faced D&T all day. Making mistakes left and right was entirely my fault.

But since then, I've gained an appreciation for the stock lists. They've been remarkably consistent. The deck is clearly a metagame choice that preys on certain well known strategies.

I haven't read all the pages, and I'm hoping some D&T regulars can chime in on these (basic) questions:

1. What can this deck do vs. Elves? Do we just accept that it is a bad match-up?

2. I read somewhere that European superstar Thomas E. says D&T is favored against Miracles. Is this true? If so, am I just playing the deck wrong or is it much better with Council's Judgment and Pithing Needle? It seems to me that in control vs. control, Miracles has more staying power. Is D&T meant to be the beatdown, and if so, what changes post-sideboard will help this?

3. European storm aficionado Lemnear suggested Mindbreak Trap as a potential way to stop the turn 1 kills. Is this something that folks have tested for surprise value, or as a limited answer to Elves? Admittedly, most storm decks play Gitaxian Probe for information, but it could be a good buffer tool in the absence of Thalias 5 through 8.

Thanks in advance guys!

I'll try my best to answer your questions; also, welcome to the community! Much like Storm or Goblins, D&T features a dedicated community of players each pushing the archetype forward. Most of them are active on the Salvation thread. However there are plenty Sourcers who I am sure will be more than willing to give tips, advice or any other guidance.

So! The questions.

1) There are thing you can do to improve the matchup but, unlike most matchups, there is no one good hate card. I am partial to gravedigger's cage. It hits GSZ and NO while also serving as decent hate against flashback/dredge. Ethersworn Canonist does a lot of work; chalice of the void is rarer but more of a hoser. Maindeck Aven Mindcensor is a decent enough hatebear, though not comparable to say Thalia vs Storm. Revoker should name Heritage Druid is proactively cast. Obviously he can hit anything in your way (Symbiote, etc).

Elves is a matchup that is bad but can be made better with tight play and trusting developed instincts. I have beaten them with Thalia before because then could not cast NO. I recommend play testing extensively, especially with a human opponent.

2) It very much is but, a lot like the Tempo matchup, you can't play into their strategy. Never overcommit; always make their wipes garbage. Abuse vial. Needle, Judgment and Cataclysm are all good. Top is obviously enemy no. 1. Thalia + Karakas + Vial @ 2 is enough to win most games. If you run Brimaz, you'll trounce them.

3. MBT is problematic for me because it is ONLY good vs fast sequence combo and, even then, it's not particularly great. Most of the time we want to advance our board state with each creature providing a new wall of the prison we keep our opponent in. MBT, while an answer to a certain condition of the game, does not serve our prison plan. It can create a false sense of security, sitting in your hand only to be therapied away before the Tendrils/NO or baited out only for another dagger to be produced. Yes it can get us to turn two in theory, but it's the same thinking that keeps Leyline of Sanctity in SneakShow sideboards--except that that deck has a much different style of play.

Judge's Familiar comes to mind if you're looking for turn one hate. However I find that we often have enough time to slam a Thalia before they assemble their pieces.

If you have a list or any other questions, please feel free to share them!

[Plague Sliver]

2) It very much is but, a lot like the Tempo matchup, you can't play into their strategy. Never overcommit; always make their wipes garbage. Abuse vial. Needle, Judgment and Cataclysm are all good. Top is obviously enemy no. 1. Thalia + Karakas + Vial @ 2 is enough to win most games. If you run Brimaz, you'll trounce them.



Obviously I need to test, but in theory Brimaz isn't needed. The vial/karakas tricks with Thalia seem enough, and they can never block the 2/1 first striker. Unless you're thinking that Brimaz is a faster clock and ends the game more quickly.

You're right about Vial, though -- it's a key card, and reminds me of the Merfolk vs. Countertop days. Although 'Folk has a faster clock.

I'm a fan of the maindeck Revoker, so I think that saves us some slots in the sideboard with Pithing Needle.

[Barbed Blightning]

Obviously I need to test, but in theory Brimaz isn't needed. The vial/karakas tricks with Thalia seem enough, and they can never block the 2/1 first striker. Unless you're thinking that Brimaz is a faster clock and ends the game more quickly.

You're right about Vial, though -- it's a key card, and reminds me of the Merfolk vs. Countertop days. Although 'Folk has a faster clock.

I'm a fan of the maindeck Revoker, so I think that saves us some slots in the sideboard with Pithing Needle.
Brimaz fulfills the beatstick/combat disruption role. Although he appears vanilla, against creature deck and even Tempo he is a scary card as he makes attacking prohibitive and blocking difficult. Also, in terms of raw damage output vs combo/control, he's faster than Crusader--supposing you count the Simba tokens. However he is not necessary.

Here's a basic 60 I'd start with:

10 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Canopy
1 Cavern

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

Sideboard is tailored to the meta; however, this is reasonable for an Open/large event:

2 RIP
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 Judgment
2 Cataclysm
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 Path to Exile

[ironclad8690]

My buddy Colin Logan just took down SCG Kansas City with this:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=70522

4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
1 Eiganjo Castle
3 Karakas

4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Meekstone
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Moat
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Cataclysm

There will be good coverage of him vs Lands, BUG Delver, and a finals match vs RUG Delver.

[Plague Sliver]

Read the coverage. Looks like the singleton spirit is good for a blowout once in awhile :cool:

I'm guessing that the Crusaders weren't needed, or that BUG is already a decent matchup with Revoker and Rest in Peace?

[Finn]

These cards are not 4-ofs. There is no guarantee that you will ever see any of them, so overlap is a good idea.

[Barbed Blightning]

These cards are not 4-ofs. There is no guarantee that you will ever see any of them, so overlap is a good idea.
Which cards?

[Plague Sliver]

Played in a small local tournament with 28 players, and made top 8. Second time playing the deck.

11 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Port
4 Wasteland
1 Canopy

4 Vial
4 StP
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire & Ice

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Revoker
4 Stoneforge
3 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mindcensor
2 Crusader

Sideboard:

2 RIP
2 Canonist
2 Liege
2 O-Ring
1 Cataclysm
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Pithing Needle
1 Cage
1 Path to Exile

My matches:

Round 1 UWR Delver - Win 2-0
Round 2 Food Chain Griffins - Lose 0-2
Round 3 Burn - Win 2-1
Round 4 Sneak Show - Win 2-0
Round 5 Oops, All Spells - Draw, but we play it out and I lose 0-2
Top 8 Round 1 vs. Elves - Lose 1-2

Sideboarded incorrectly against Elves, having never played against it. Game 1 I stall long enough to win with Jitte, despite him GSZ'ing for Ruric. Revoker named Heritage Druid - thanks to this thread, I remembered and it was funny asking him for the card name since they were all Chinese. Had to pull up Gatherer so I could "name" it. Game 2 he wins with a quick Natural Order into Progenitus, I curse myself for not running Council's Judgment. And in Game 3, when I had the Aven Mindcensor in response to his Natural Order, he still found a fatty in the top 4 cards. Must be nice to run well...

Deck felt extremely tight and fun to play. Playing with an active Vial felt like cheating. I can see why opponents want to shut it down right away. Even Elves brought in Pithing Needle for it, curiously enough. My sideboard wasn't optimal, could have used some more enlightened tutors for consistency. Lots of fun all around.

[Barook]

I'm just wondering against what the Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter build excels against?

I'm currently building a variety of anti-decks and wonder if it has any match-ups where you absolutely crush your opponents, compared to the normal variant.

[Barbed Blightning]

I'm just wondering against what the Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter build excels against?

I'm currently building a variety of anti-decks and wonder if it has any match-ups where you absolutely crush your opponents, compared to the normal variant.
Tempo, I imagine. More than just RUG; any kind of Tempo probably hates Arbiter. Deathblade, too, especially those without basics. Combo probably finds him annoying too, especially Elves

[Barook]

Tempo, I imagine. More than just RUG; any kind of Tempo probably hates Arbiter. Deathblade, too, especially those without basics. Combo probably finds him annoying too, especially Elves
I won't touch the Elves match-up with a ten-foot pole, no matter the D&T build.

I imagine the game vs Sneak & Show gets even more loop-sided than it already is. Probably Reanimator, too.

But it would be nice to have someone comment who has more experience with the build.

[Barbed Blightning]

I won't touch the Elves match-up with a ten-foot pole, no matter the D&T build.

I imagine the game vs Sneak & Show gets even more loop-sided than it already is. Probably Reanimator, too.

But it would be nice to have someone comment who has more experience with the build.
True, I'm just speculating. I played with the card back before Thalia, but those were different times.

[Madmankevinx]

With Miracles showing up in large numbers I want to make sure I have a fantastic chance against it this weekend for SCG Syracuse. I know we have a decent matchup already with revokers, and after sideboard has anyone ever tried Ghostway? Seems like if it resolves it would more than likely be lights out for Miracles. I really expect to face Miracles a couple times on Sunday and would like to make sure those rounds are wins! What are our thoughts?

[porcupinetreeman]

I'm just wondering against what the Leonin Arbiter/Ghost Quarter build excels against?

I'm currently building a variety of anti-decks and wonder if it has any match-ups where you absolutely crush your opponents, compared to the normal variant.

I've played the ghost quarter build quite a bit. I would say it is better vs combo and contol, but worse vs aggro and aggro control. Leonin helps greatly for deck with veteran explorer / GSZ / KoTR.

Unfortunately, Leonin hurts our own stoneforge, making our aggro match worse.

[Barbed Blightning]

With Miracles showing up in large numbers I want to make sure I have a fantastic chance against it this weekend for SCG Syracuse. I know we have a decent matchup already with revokers, and after sideboard has anyone ever tried Ghostway? Seems like if it resolves it would more than likely be lights out for Miracles. I really expect to face Miracles a couple times on Sunday and would like to make sure those rounds are wins! What are our thoughts?
Why Ghostway? Just to negate a terminus?

[Elfkid]

You can play 1 cavern of souls and 2 cataclism on the sideboard, resolve one of this is GG, and vs miracles I like the mindcensor, if the have not top, or we named it with revocer they can only use the terminus in their turn, so just play mindcensor EOT and continue punching!

And what about the Spirit of the Labyrint? Vs miracles seems good, and that 3 power its a reasonable clock i think

Regards :D

[Barbed Blightning]

I've been brewing a bit of a specialized D&T list. One more aimed at squishing BUGs and bullying control:

BUGHUNTER D&T

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Cavern of Souls

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Aven Mindcensor

Sideboard

3 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Path to Exile
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I may go back to the Tutor board for more combo-oriented hate; the list has be absolutely savage so far.

Off topic discussion: anyone else really sick of seeing only decks with Delver or Brainstorm in them? Not to flame but I'd like to see some ANT, MUD or something completely rogue just smash a tournament.

[cab0747]

Off topic discussion: anyone else really sick of seeing only decks with Delver or Brainstorm in them? Not to flame but I'd like to see some ANT, MUD or something completely rogue just smash a tournament.

Yes. I would love to see more storm in the top 8's. I would love to see some rogue deck wreck a tourny too. The mono red sneak attack deck seemed really cool. I owuld also like to see the UW standstill deck become a thing(http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=69142)

[Elfkid]

I've been brewing a bit of a specialized D&T list. One more aimed at squishing BUGs and bullying control:




I love Brimaz vs BUG and control decks, u can protect him with karakas for the removal, and It puts lot of pressure with the tokens (that are very good vs liliana and edict effects)

And I never tryed Mangara, is good?

Regards:D

[cab0747]

Hey everyone,

I have this deck built in paper and I am unsure whether I would like to take Painter or DnT to the NJ GP in November. However, I don't play as much Legacy as I would like. To ensure that I could play this at a GP and not embarass myself, I have been considering buying into this deck online.

Is there any reason why this deck is SEVERELY under-represented online? Is it just the costs of Ports that keep people away? Is the meta hostile to DnT? Any insight here would be great.

Thanks!

[Elfkid]

Hey everyone,

I have this deck built in paper and I am unsure whether I would like to take Painter or DnT to the NJ GP in November. However, I don't play as much Legacy as I would like. To ensure that I could play this at a GP and not embarass myself, I have been considering buying into this deck online.

Is there any reason why this deck is SEVERELY under-represented online? Is it just the costs of Ports that keep people away? Is the meta hostile to DnT? Any insight here would be great.

Thanks!

Hey hey!

I started to play this deck a few days, and I readed a lot, and watched a lot of videos (Sam Pardee, Thomas Enelvolsen etc...) and really, it a insane powerfull deck, the hate now its hard, toxid deluge, golgari charm, sometimes zealous persecution etc..., but this year D&T won a lot of scg, and get very good positions on a big tournaments, I like painter too, and u will get lot of free wins thanks to the blood moons, but I prefer D&T

The reason than people arent playing it on modo its cause the rishadan + wasteland its arround 800-900 tix so...

And when I saw Bahra_ playing it, he gets easy 3-1 or 4-0 on each DE

Regards^^

[Finn]

You are going to see some hate. That should be a given. But then all top decks are going to be hated on some. Just play smart and you can minimize the effectiveness of your opponent's hate. Let me clarify that some.

Death and Taxes wants an environment absent of any kind of card advantage. That is, everything from Hymn to Tourach to Fact or Fiction to Wrath of God is bad for this deck. Your only defense against Hymn and FoF are to prevent them from casting the spells. But board sweepers like Wrath, Toxic Deluge, etc. can be managed better simply by managing your resources carefully. Don't overcommit to the board if you have the game in hand and you can scrape out a free win often enough to make a difference. Keep Karakas untapped. Weigh the advantages of flickering a permanent out of the way of the sweeper at the cost of the Wisp. Lots of this kind of thing.

[DudeItsCorey]

Question for the community. What do you do about "Dread of Night"? In my meta both Storm and now Jund is running it and it very difficult to over come. O-Ring/Council's Judgment seems too slow and the only time I can win game 2 and 3 (more so against storm) is if they don't draw it. The several storm players play multiple copies (I think 3) and always seem to have both when I play Canonist. Game 1 is always a sure fire victory (excluding the standard bad draw, mana flood, mana starve, etc.). Any advice would be very much appreciated. Also, Charbeltcher... how do you beat that Deck? I was thinking of a 1 of silence sideboard and cast it while they are going off before they cast the kill spell. I also figured it can interrupt Elves and Storm. Thoughts? I know that Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist and Revoker should do it. However, they go off before I can even get those duders on the field.

[Barbed Blightning]

Question for the community. What do you do about "Dread of Night"? In my meta both Storm and now Jund is running it and it very difficult to over come. O-Ring/Council's Judgment seems too slow and the only time I can win game 2 and 3 (more so against storm) is if they don't draw it. The several storm players play multiple copies (I think 3) and always seem to have both when I play Canonist. Game 1 is always a sure fire victory (excluding the standard bad draw, mana flood, mana starve, etc.). Any advice would be very much appreciated. Also, Charbeltcher... how do you beat that Deck? I was thinking of a 1 of silence sideboard and cast it while they are going off before they cast the kill spell. I also figured it can interrupt Elves and Storm. Thoughts? I know that Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist and Revoker should do it. However, they go off before I can even get those duders on the field.

Firstly, there is no better plan vs any Storm variant than "stick a Thalia/Canonist/Revoker @ LED." If you want some turn one interaction, play some number of Judge's Familiar or Chalice of the Void @ zero. However, expect your other matchups to suffer and your overall consistency to go down. And, as far as a singleton silence goes, you're looking at a Christmasland scenario if you expect to have it with any regularity.

If you want to beat Dread, I think the only real solutions beyond Judgment/Oring/Chalice, is to bring in some kind of buff (Honor of the Pure, Spear of Heliod, Veteran Armorer), plays something like Disenchant/Abolish, or run Enlightened Tutor so that you see your Canonist with greater regularity. Also, for that same reason (Dread of Night) you always grab Sword of Fire and Ice first. Slapping it on a Thalia is usually gg as -6 life a turn makes their ad nauseums terrible.

I want to see your list, however. D&T is a deck where questions like "should I play X card" cannot be considered in a vacuum.

[movingtonewao]

Firstly, there is no better plan vs any Storm variant than "stick a Thalia/Canonist/Revoker @ LED." If you want some turn one interaction, play some number of Judge's Familiar or Chalice of the Void @ zero. However, expect your other matchups to suffer and your overall consistency to go down. And, as far as a singleton silence goes, you're looking at a Christmasland scenario if you expect to have it with any regularity.

If you want to beat Dread, I think the only real solutions beyond Judgment/Oring/Chalice, is to bring in some kind of buff (Honor of the Pure, Spear of Heliod, Veteran Armorer), plays something like Disenchant/Abolish, or run Enlightened Tutor so that you see your Canonist with greater regularity. Also, for that same reason (Dread of Night) you always grab Sword of Fire and Ice first. Slapping it on a Thalia is usually gg as -6 life a turn makes their ad nauseums terrible.

I want to see your list, however. D&T is a deck where questions like "should I play X card" cannot be considered in a vacuum.

I feel it would be good if we had a section on the common hate cards brought in against us as well (in addition to revamping the matchups section and a section on unconventional card choices.

For instance we expect dread of night from storm (can't think what other decks run it)
Golgari charm from bug
Sulfur elemental from rug
Pyroclasm from s&t
Etc

[Manipulato]

I feel it would be good if we had a section on the common hate cards brought in against us as well (in addition to revamping the matchups section and a section on unconventional card choices.

For instance we expect dread of night from storm (can't think what other decks run it)
Golgari charm from bug
Sulfur elemental from rug
Pyroclasm from s&t
Etc

Plague from Blade decks & Toxic Deluge from a lot of decks are also relevent SB cards against us.

[cab0747]

Is there an up-to-date sideboarding list anywhere for this deck? I've recently started to play it, but I am afraid some of my decisions are incorrect.

Thanks!

[Tylert]

Is there an up-to-date sideboarding list anywhere for this deck? I've recently started to play it, but I am afraid some of my decisions are incorrect.

Thanks!

WHat are your main and current sideboard?
There are 2 schools : with or without tutor board.

[movingtonewao]

Plague from Blade decks & Toxic Deluge from a lot of decks are also relevent SB cards against us.

which decks tend to run plague/toxic deluge?

I'm seeing more dread of night and golgari charms actually.

Also havent seen massacre and virtue ruin in awhile, they seems like a blowout, but looks like no decks run them.

[cab0747]

WHat are your main and current sideboard?
There are 2 schools : with or without tutor board.

I haven't gotten too far into the deck yet. I am running a stock list with the tutor board:

Main:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Sideboard:

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghost Quarter


Sidebaord is still kind of up in the air (which is why I am asking if there is any sideboard advice). I would like to add 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as well.

[Barbed Blightning]

I haven't gotten too far into the deck yet. I am running a stock list with the tutor board:

Main:

4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
10 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port


Sideboard:

1 Oblivion Ring
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ghost Quarter


Sidebaord is still kind of up in the air (which is why I am asking if there is any sideboard advice). I would like to add 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as well.

I would recommend first that you play Mangara; the card is crazy good. I'd cut Mindcensor for him.

Secondly, I'd drop O ring, Cataclysm and GQ for 2 Liege and 1 CoP: Red or Warmth. Oring isn't needed now with Judgment, GQ is better in the main and Cataclysm is a durdly card that Miracles players sandbag Force of Will for.

[cab0747]

I would recommend first that you play Mangara; the card is crazy good. I'd cut Mindcensor for him.

Secondly, I'd drop O ring, Cataclysm and GQ for 2 Liege and 1 CoP: Red or Warmth. Oring isn't needed now with Judgment, GQ is better in the main and Cataclysm is a durdly card that Miracles players sandbag Force of Will for.

Thanks for the suggestions! I would agree that GQ has been just OK.

Do you think I should be taking out both Mindcensors (which have been very 'meh') for 2 Mangara?

[Barbed Blightning]

Thanks for the suggestions! I would agree that GQ has been just OK.

Do you think I should be taking out both Mindcensors (which have been very 'meh') for 2 Mangara?
Yes, very much so. Mindcensor, if it sticks, is an inefficient body with an avoidable tax that has very little impact on the board; Mangara is also an inefficient body but if he sticks, you usually win.

[Elfkid]

Hi there buddies!!

Im new with this deck (no more than 1 month xD) and I have the typical sideboard problem, my question is not about how to build my sideboard, its about whose are the worse cards in each pairing (the more important ones obv)

So if someone can told me (or said me where can i find it) you´ll help me a lot^^

Thanks for all and sorry for my bad english

Have a good day^^

[Bahra]

I would recommend first that you play Mangara; the card is crazy good. I'd cut Mindcensor for him.

Secondly, I'd drop O ring, Cataclysm and GQ for 2 Liege and 1 CoP: Red or Warmth. Oring isn't needed now with Judgment, GQ is better in the main and Cataclysm is a durdly card that Miracles players sandbag Force of Will for.

Cutting Cataclysm is not a good suggestion in my opinion. Cataclysm is very good against Miracles, which is the top deck right now, and it happens to also crush decks like Lands, Nic Fit, Enchantress, 12 post and more. Sure most miracle players keep in FoW because of cataclysm, but they usually end up spending the FoW on Vial or Thalia/Mangara, so Cataclysm is still very good most of the time. I would never cut it. I do agree with the rest of what you're saying, and I also completely cut mindcensor a while ago.

[Barbed Blightning]

Cutting Cataclysm is not a good suggestion in my opinion. Cataclysm is very good against Miracles, which is the top deck right now, and it happens to also crush decks like Lands, Nic Fit, Enchantress, 12 post and more. Sure most miracle players keep in FoW because of cataclysm, but they usually end up spending the FoW on Vial or Thalia/Mangara, so Cataclysm is still very good most of the time. I would never cut it. I do agree with the rest of what you're saying, and I also completely cut mindcensor a while ago.

I still only see Cataclysm as a solid answer to Miracles; while the other decks are hurt (lands) or wiped out completely by it (nic fit), they are very rare. It's more of a metagame call, I think, but at an Open I just feel like we should have cards with broader application. I have always been lukewarm to the card.

In other news, I have a weekly column over at Win Target Game. It's D&T focused but I'm sure other Legacy topics will come up from time to time. The first article is a general introduction to the deck.

Here it is, if anyone would like to check it out (I'd of course love to hear your opinions!): http://wintargetgame.net/enlightened-tutor-legacy-death-taxes/

[entreri_fans]

Hi, guys, forgive me if I post in the wrong thread.

I am wondering if Death and Taxes splashing black would be a viable idea? Perhaps we can have access to Bob, Tidehollow Sculler or Zealous Persecution or even discard.

Is there any sample list?

Thanks in advance!

[Bahra]

I still only see Cataclysm as a solid answer to Miracles; while the other decks are hurt (lands) or wiped out completely by it (nic fit), they are very rare. It's more of a metagame call, I think, but at an Open I just feel like we should have cards with broader application. I have always been lukewarm to the card.

In other news, I have a weekly column over at Win Target Game. It's D&T focused but I'm sure other Legacy topics will come up from time to time. The first article is a general introduction to the deck.

Here it is, if anyone would like to check it out (I'd of course love to hear your opinions!): http://wintargetgame.net/enlightened-tutor-legacy-death-taxes/


What is your board plan against miracles then? There's so much miracles right now that Cataclysm is a mandatory inclusion.

My board plan is: -4x Swords to Plowshares -1x Umezawa's Jitte +1 Enlightened Tutor +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Pithing Needle +2 Cataclysm. That way I have no dead cards which Swords to Plowshares basically is in that match up, even if they board in Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull.

[Barbed Blightning]

-4 StP, -1 Jitte, -1 SFM. +2 Canonist, +2 Judgment, +1 Spirit, +1 Needle. I have considered dropping my Crusaders for the Tutors, but nullifying a draw step by a countered tutor target seems like a bad situation.

[Bahra]

-4 StP, -1 Jitte, -1 SFM. +2 Canonist, +2 Judgment, +1 Spirit, +1 Needle. I have considered dropping my Crusaders for the Tutors, but nullifying a draw step by a countered tutor target seems like a bad situation.

Hmmm. I'd be interested to hear why you board out a Stoneforge Mystic, do you not play Sword of Fire and Ice? Ethersworn Canonist seems very bad to board in since it basically doesn't disrupt them at all (if they play well) and it trades with Snapcaster Mage (and then they get to flashback something).

Getting your tutor target countered is of course very bad, but usually you get Pithing Needle or Ratchet Bomb and those are very strong cards in the match up. I've won several games by tutoring for Ratchet Bomb after my opponent has cast Entreat the Angels.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hmmm. I'd be interested to hear why you board out a Stoneforge Mystic, do you not play Sword of Fire and Ice? Ethersworn Canonist seems very bad to board in since it basically doesn't disrupt them at all (if they play well) and it trades with Snapcaster Mage (and then they get to flashback something).

Getting your tutor target countered is of course very bad, but usually you get Pithing Needle or Ratchet Bomb and those are very strong cards in the match up. I've won several games by tutoring for Ratchet Bomb after my opponent has cast Entreat the Angels.

Canonist is actually quite good; Miracles does a lot of cantripping and landing a Canonist early can slow them down enough to tilt things in your favor. Her disruption is minimal, sure, but crapping on SCM is definitely a good thing. And, yes, I understand that they can trade with Canonist and StP something else; I don't see how it is much of a counter to bringing Canonist in.

Of course I run Sword of Fire and Ice. But I trimmed a Jitte and, since we should be playing more aggressive against Miracles, the fourth copy seems redundant. Mangara is the only other card that doesn't have an aggressive P/T that I could cut; that's obviously a bad idea, though.

Again, it doesn't count for shit if the tutored card is "strong in the matchup"--it never resolved. Tutor is for the fair and combo matches; against Tempo and Control it is just not as solid an answer.

[Bahra]

Canonist is actually quite good; Miracles does a lot of cantripping and landing a Canonist early can slow them down enough to tilt things in your favor. Her disruption is minimal, sure, but crapping on SCM is definitely a good thing. And, yes, I understand that they can trade with Canonist and StP something else; I don't see how it is much of a counter to bringing Canonist in.

Of course I run Sword of Fire and Ice. But I trimmed a Jitte and, since we should be playing more aggressive against Miracles, the fourth copy seems redundant. Mangara is the only other card that doesn't have an aggressive P/T that I could cut; that's obviously a bad idea, though.

Again, it doesn't count for shit if the tutored card is "strong in the matchup"--it never resolved. Tutor is for the fair and combo matches; against Tempo and Control it is just not as solid an answer.

Cutting a Stoneforge Mystic is nothing but wrong if you're running Sword of Fire and Ice, how does Canonist "crap" on Snapcaster Mage if they just block it? Sword of Fire and Ice is the best card in the match up and Stoneforge is way way stronger than Canonist for example. Miracles doesn't do a lot of cantripping, they play out a top and then sometimes they ponder or brainstorm, but they rarely play more than 1 card a turn, so bringing in Grizzly Bear instead of Stoneforge Mystic seems very wrong. And you don't necessarily need to be aggressive against Miracles, you're a control deck as much as they are, you just need to make them not blow you out with Terminus and you're good.

And where do you get this idea that your enlightened tutor target always gets countered? That's simply not true. Miracles has a ton of stuff they need to Force of Will (Thalia, Æther Vial, Cataclysm, Mangara and sometimes even Stoneforge Mystic).

[Warden]

Hi, guys, forgive me if I post in the wrong thread.

I am wondering if Death and Taxes splashing black would be a viable idea? Perhaps we can have access to Bob, Tidehollow Sculler or Zealous Persecution or even discard.

Is there any sample list?

Thanks in advance!

I've seen it done on 1 or 2 lists. I too am curious about users here who have tried it or even goldfished. My initial take on the deck is replacing the Mindcensor/Mangara/Brimaz/Flickerwisp "flex" slots with Confidants and possibly Sculler. But then I'm confused about the manabase. I think a non-green 2 color DnT needs to mesh Caverns, Wastes, and Rishadans together with a few fetchlands/basics.

Alternatively, you can just run a stock W list with an extra Cavern or two for "humans" so Confidant can be played sans vial.

[Barbed Blightning]

Cutting a Stoneforge Mystic is nothing but wrong if you're running Sword of Fire and Ice, how does Canonist "crap" on Snapcaster Mage if they just block it? Sword of Fire and Ice is the best card in the match up and Stoneforge is way way stronger than Canonist for example. Miracles doesn't do a lot of cantripping, they play out a top and then sometimes they ponder or brainstorm, but they rarely play more than 1 card a turn, so bringing in Grizzly Bear instead of Stoneforge Mystic seems very wrong. And you don't necessarily need to be aggressive against Miracles, you're a control deck as much as they are, you just need to make them not blow you out with Terminus and you're good.

And where do you get this idea that your enlightened tutor target always gets countered? That's simply not true. Miracles has a ton of stuff they need to Force of Will (Thalia, Æther Vial, Cataclysm, Mangara and sometimes even Stoneforge Mystic).

Let me clarify: Canonist craps on Snapcaster's ETB. Yes I know they can block it, but if you are playing the game right anyway they shouldn't have a target with said StP. A Brainstorm could be a concern I suppose, but the Snapcaster speed bump will come up if you attack with a Revoker or Stoneforge as well. Canonist provides an extra body and a decent tax; against a deck with as much creature kill as Miracles, extra attacks is what we need.

They don't need to counter Thalia. She's annoying, yes, but she doesn't shut them out like she does vs RUG or Storm. The others are correct, however.

As far as SFM is concerned, you still draw into her enough of the time. I don't consider Batterskull or SoFI essential to winning the Miracles matchup and she's the slowest card in the deck. But if it bugs you so much, I can shave a Mother of Runes instead.

You cannot be the better control deck vs Miracles. You are the beat down, you want the game to end quick, since their late game is usually superior.

I'm not saying it's always countered. Where are you getting that idea? I'm saying getting 2-for-1ed AND losing a draw step is something I want to avoid. And, when in an actual game, you may find yourself tutoring on the first turn; they may very well FoW your turn-two play.

EDIT: @Warden: I agree, running something like 2-3 Caverns seems better than fetches and duals. A creature package like so seems like something I'd do for the B splash:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Bob
3 Revoker
4 SFM
2 Sculler
2 Mangara
3 Crusader

My concern with the B splash is mostly a question of how to keep the deck functional.

[hill_giant]

I still only see Cataclysm as a solid answer to Miracles; while the other decks are hurt (lands) or wiped out completely by it (nic fit), they are very rare. It's more of a metagame call, I think, but at an Open I just feel like we should have cards with broader application. I have always been lukewarm to the card.

I've cast many, many Cataclysms, and only once have I ever lost a game after resolving one (although I came pretty close recently when I had an opponent keep plains/top/angel/keranos). My local meta is a bit heavy on miracles (and my old one had a lands player and a twelvepost player), but I have a hard time believing it's right to leave them out of your board. I've also stolen a ton of otherwise unwinnable games from elves with them (including the decisive game in a win-and-in at an open). It's hard for me to say exactly how good it is against stoneblade, since it gets thoughtseized or countered every time I draw it, but it seems solid there too. It's pretty great against any deck that wants more than 3 lands in play ever.

[jake556]

Forgottenforce (Jamie) is currently 7-0 and going to draw into the top 8 at SCG St Louis! Another Top 8!

[Barbed Blightning]

Today was a good day for D&T, definitely! Hopefully we'll get to hear from our victors sometime soon.

[Barook]

How good is CoP: Red vs Burn?

I'm currently running 4 Leylines in the board for Burn (and Storm), given it's one of the most played decks on MODO. However, since Miracles is spiraling out of control right now, I'd like get those sideboard slots back for something more useful.

As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I'm not a fan. First, you need 4 (or 5, with Thalia) mana, a board position that leaves you favorable after resolving it AND the opponent not countering it. That's basically Magical Christmas Land right there and thus, too unreliable for my taste. Besides, Elves is also an issue, to Spirit of the Labyrinth might the overall better sideboard card.

[Bahra]

How good is CoP: Red vs Burn?

I'm currently running 4 Leylines in the board for Burn (and Storm), given it's one of the most played decks on MODO. However, since Miracles is spiraling out of control right now, I'd like get those sideboard slots back for something more useful.

As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I'm not a fan. First, you need 4 (or 5, with Thalia) mana, a board position that leaves you favorable after resolving it AND the opponent not countering it. That's basically Magical Christmas Land right there and thus, too unreliable for my taste. Besides, Elves is also an issue, to Spirit of the Labyrinth might the overall better sideboard card.

Circle of Protection: Red is sick. I have 2x Enlightened Tutor and 1x Circle of Protection: Red to bring in against burn and if I draw any of those I just win, they can't deal you damage anymore, only kill your guys and eventually you just jam batterskull.

Cataclysm is certainly not magical christmas land against miracles, it's very common that games go 10+ turns and then it's easy to cast it in a 23 land deck, and you don't need a favorable board position even though you'll have it most of the time, considering that Miracles doesn't really play any creatures.

[Barbed Blightning]

How good is CoP: Red vs Burn?

I'm currently running 4 Leylines in the board for Burn (and Storm), given it's one of the most played decks on MODO. However, since Miracles is spiraling out of control right now, I'd like get those sideboard slots back for something more useful.

As far as Cataclysm is concerned, I'm not a fan. First, you need 4 (or 5, with Thalia) mana, a board position that leaves you favorable after resolving it AND the opponent not countering it. That's basically Magical Christmas Land right there and thus, too unreliable for my taste. Besides, Elves is also an issue, to Spirit of the Labyrinth might the overall better sideboard card.

CoP has its ups and downs, like Warmth. I prefer it because it allows you to negate the attackers and stuff like Vortex and gives you one more thing to help against Progenitus. However, Warmth may be the more practical card, since you can "set it and forget it," while CoP forces you to play very reactive. I think it helps you more if you draw it late, though.

That's basically what I am getting at with Cataclysm as well. If they have something like Keranos out, Cat's just a shitty way of asking them to punish you.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Forgottenforce (Jamie) is currently 7-0 and going to draw into the top 8 at SCG St Louis! Another Top 8!

Was he the guy that attacked with his Jitte-Avenger into Avenger and Mother of Runes?^^

[DudeItsCorey]

Question: What is Pithing Needle Sideboarded for that Phyrexian Revoker can't handle? The only thing I can think of is the miracles matchup. Terminus is a card that can't eliminate Pithing Needle. Is there any lands that we're worried about that Phyrexian Revoker can't reach?

Also, just a side note: I would really love to find a place for Gaddock Teeg in this deck. Although, adding green lands would mess with the mana base and vial I don't think is reliable enough for us to be able to cheat him in. Just a thought as he seems to be a perfect fit for this deck.

[Bahra]

Question: What is Pithing Needle Sideboarded for that Phyrexian Revoker can't handle? The only thing I can think of is the miracles matchup. Terminus is a card that can't eliminate Pithing Needle. Is there any lands that we're worried about that Phyrexian Revoker can't reach?

Also, just a side note: I would really love to find a place for Gaddock Teeg in this deck. Although, adding green lands would mess with the mana base and vial I don't think is reliable enough for us to be able to cheat him in. Just a thought as he seems to be a perfect fit for this deck.


Pithing Needle takes care of Sensei's Divining Top and Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Pithing Needle can't die to Terminus or Swords to Plowshares. It's a fantastic card against miracles.

You won't be able to fit Gaddock Teeg in the deck, splashing for colors in this mana base is not a viable thing to be doing.

[from Cairo]

Question: What is Pithing Needle Sideboarded for that Phyrexian Revoker can't handle? The only thing I can think of is the miracles matchup. Terminus is a card that can't eliminate Pithing Needle. Is there any lands that we're worried about that Phyrexian Revoker can't reach?

It is mostly for Miracles/Sensei's Divining Top. But to answer your 2nd question about lands that it addresses that Revoker can't hit, Pithing Needle plays a strong role in agroing 39-43 Lands shutting off Maze of Ith. If one can also Rest in Peace the Punishing Fire engine, the post board games become quite winnable.

[Barook]

I've seen Bahra play use EE @1 against Elves multiple times with Lands yesterday. I wonder how it would fare in D&T since it comes online a full turn faster vs. Elves compared to Ratchet Bomb. And that's alot in this match-up.

On a different note: How does Orzhov Pontiff interact with Flickerwisp? Am I correct that I can play Pontiff, -1/-1 the opposing creatures, then flicker it and give them another -1/-1 EoT, resulting in a -2/-2 total?

[Barbed Blightning]

I've seen Bahra play use EE @1 against Elves multiple times with Lands yesterday. I wonder how it would fare in D&T since it comes online a full turn faster vs. Elves compared to Ratchet Bomb. And that's alot in this match-up.

On a different note: How does Orzhov Pontiff interact with Flickerwisp? Am I correct that I can play Pontiff, -1/-1 the opposing creatures, then flicker it and give them another -1/-1 EoT, resulting in a -2/-2 total?
EE seems OK, my concern is keeping the mana open. But it does give that slight advantage of speed...

Yes indeed. Pontiff is a card that I would consider if I played Deadguy & Taxes.

EDIT: No, wait, duh. It doesn't work that way; like Flickerwisp, the effect is removed until the beginning of the next end step. It'll nauseate your opponent's creatures until the end of your turn, however. :)

Or at least I think I'm correct....

[Barook]

EDIT: No, wait, duh. It doesn't work that way; like Flickerwisp, the effect is removed until the beginning of the next end step. It'll nauseate your opponent's creatures until the end of your turn, however. :)

Or at least I think I'm correct....
What? Pontiff's CiP isn't an EoT trigger, it goes "until end of turn", which means the effects should both end in the clean-up step.

If I'm not mistaken, it should work like this:

Main Phase: Pontiff, -1/-1, Flickerwisp, exile Pontiff
EoT: Pontiff returns, -1/-1
Clean-up: Creatures return to normal.

[Barbed Blightning]

What? Pontiff's CiP isn't an EoT trigger, it goes "until end of turn", which means the effects should both end in the clean-up step.

If I'm not mistaken, it should work like this:

Main Phase: Pontiff, -1/-1, Flickerwisp, exile Pontiff
EoT: Pontiff returns, -1/-1
Clean-up: Creatures return to normal.
That was my original assumption; for a brief moment, opposing creatures would get -2/-2. That's probably correct.

[movingtonewao]

Is this really so? Can someone explain in detail how this works?

[Barbed Blightning]

Is this really so? Can someone explain in detail how this works?
I believe it goes as such:

1) Pontiff's ETB
2) Cast Wisp, ETB targets Pontiff
3) At the beginning of the End step, Pontiff returns, new ETB stacks with the old one
4) Upon the Cleanup step following afterwards, the -2/-2 effect is removed.

Now that I have outlined it, it makes more sense to me. Pontiff's ability and Wisp's ability are completely different; the latter does not care about Cleanup.

[Rizso]

Is this really so? Can someone explain in detail how this works?

Its actually pretty simple: Reading the wisp text says:
"When Flickerwisp enters the battlefield, exile another target permanent. Return that card to the battlefield under its owner's control at the beginning of the next end step.", End step is the last phase of each turn, probly knows this. Creatures still has -1/-1 effects lingering on them at this point. Its not until The cleanup step damage and other until end of turn effects end.

[Penguinizer]

Hey, I need a bit of advice. I just heard that there's a big Legacy tourney on this Sunday. I haven't played Death and Taxes in a while since I've been lazy. Is my build horrifically out of date/lacking? It was fairly standard back when I last played/modified it.

Lands: 23
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Castle
7x Plains

Creatures:29
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos


Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

SB:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Fiend Hunter
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Labyrinth Spirit

Ok, so I'm over 2-3 cards, I have no idea why. What should I cut? The only thing I can think of is Labyrinth Spirit so I can stick Sword of Light and Shadow in the SB.

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey, I need a bit of advice. I just heard that there's a big Legacy tourney on this Sunday. I haven't played Death and Taxes in a while since I've been lazy. Is my build horrifically out of date/lacking? It was fairly standard back when I last played/modified it.

Lands: 23
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Eiganjo Castle
7x Plains

Creatures:29
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Serra Avenger
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos


Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

SB:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Fiend Hunter
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Labyrinth Spirit

Ok, so I'm over 2-3 cards, I have no idea why. What should I cut? The only thing I can think of is Labyrinth Spirit so I can stick Sword of Light and Shadow in the SB.

I'd cut Spirit completely. It's always been lackluster for me and it is easy to remove to boot.

I'd go back up to four copies on Revoker and Port in the main. They are too good to shave. Also, more basics.

I'd cut Brimaz for Mirran Crusader (more relevant threat against BGx) and go down to copies of Mangara.

In short, I would play this modified list:

Lands: 23
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
11x Plains

Creatures: 26
4x Mother of Runes
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Serra Avenger
3x Flickerwisp
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

SB:
2x Rest in Peace
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
2x Council's Judgement
2x Cataclysm
1x Manriki-Gusari
1x Pithing Needle
3x Flex for meta

[cursecatcher]

I haven't liked Spirit of the Labyrinth very much in my experience with it either, but if Treasure Cruise becomes a commonly played card moving forward, the Spirit might gain a lot of potency?

[Barbed Blightning]

I haven't liked Spirit of the Labyrinth very much in my experience with it either, but if Treasure Cruise becomes a commonly played card moving forward, the Spirit might gain a lot of potency?
There's been much discussion about it on the Salvation. Basically we've come to the conclusion that we can run Spirit to prevent the card draw, bring back some old school tech in Jotun Grunt to nerf Delve or do both.

I'm currently in the Grunt camp, with Spirit in the board. MD RIP sounds terrible.

[Wynk]

There's been much discussion about it on the Salvation. Basically we've come to the conclusion that we can run Spirit to prevent the card draw, bring back some old school tech in Jotun Grunt to nerf Delve or do both.

I'm currently in the Grunt camp, with Spirit in the board. MD RIP sounds terrible.


My only concern with Grunt is that it doesn't do much the turn it comes into play other than being a big wall. An opponent has the opportunity to Treasure Cruise in their main phase before Grunt's upkeep trigger goes on the stack.

[Barbed Blightning]

My only concern with Grunt is that it doesn't do much the turn it comes into play other than being a big wall. An opponent has the opportunity to Treasure Cruise in their main phase before Grunt's upkeep trigger goes on the stack.
The hope is to land him before they reach sufficient Delvability. He was always decent back in the day, plus given the amount of grave decks already he's a pretty good source of hate.

[cursecatcher]

That's a great alternative. I really like the synergy with Flickerwisp there too. Once we see what lists are doing well in the coming weeks, it might be easier to tell which creature is most appropriate. Not having yet another x/1 in the deck is definitely another pro for Grunt in my mind. Though I'd rather have Spirit against Miracles.

One other point of debate I've been having internally is the choice of Path to Exile/Sunlance/Dismember in the sideboard. I like having 1-2 additional pieces of 1 mana removal, but am having a tough time deciding which is most appropriate. Is this just a pure meta call, or do you all think that one is better than the rest definitively?

[from Cairo]

One other point of debate I've been having internally is the choice of Path to Exile/Sunlance/Dismember in the sideboard. I like having 1-2 additional pieces of 1 mana removal, but am having a tough time deciding which is most appropriate. Is this just a pure meta call, or do you all think that one is better than the rest definitively?

They are meta dependent. Path to Exile is best against Delver variants - BUG, RUG, UWR - they usually have 0-1 basics so the drawback isn't a drawback. Gut Shot is best against Elves since it ties up no mana and can be used as a tempo play hitting a Symbiote or Heritage while still applying lock elements; Gut Shot is also very good against Grixis shells that sometimes utilize - Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer and/or Dark Confidant; Additionally, it is the optimal removal spell against other Mother of Runes decks - the mirror and Maverick. Sunlance is probably the best compromise for a balanced metagame. It hits Delver, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer and any of the Elves components without much drawback (Sorcery). It can't be utilized versus Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic, it's biggest drawback. I think Dismember really only shines against UWx Stoneblade decks where it can handle Stoneforge and a Batterskull equipped Germ. In general Path to Exile handles Tarmogoyf better and more consistently.

[Tylert]

They are meta dependent. Path to Exile is best against Delver variants - BUG, RUG, UWR - they usually have 0-1 basics so the drawback isn't a drawback. Gut Shot is best against Elves since it ties up no mana and can be used as a tempo play hitting a Symbiote or Heritage while still applying lock elements; Gut Shot is also very good against Grixis shells that sometimes utilize - Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer and/or Dark Confidant; Additionally, it is the optimal removal spell against other Mother of Runes decks - the mirror and Maverick. Sunlance is probably the best compromise for a balanced metagame. It hits Delver, Dark Confidant, Grim Lavamancer and any of the Elves components without much drawback (Sorcery). It can't be utilized versus Mother of Runes and Stoneforge Mystic, it's biggest drawback. I think Dismember really only shines against UWx Stoneblade decks where it can handle Stoneforge and a Batterskull equipped Germ. In general Path to Exile handles Tarmogoyf better and more consistently.

Oust anyone? ritual, but not conditionnal.

[Barbed Blightning]

Oust anyone? ritual, but not conditionnal.
There's a friend I long forgot!

[cursecatcher]

Another decision I'm grappling with currently is whether or not to include Enlightened Tutor in my sideboard. Obviously I love the utility against extreme combo decks like Storm, Dredge, or Reanimator, but those decks have largely fallen off in past months.

I saw that Shahar Shenhar decided to exclude Tutor in the sideboard he used to place 16th at the Open in NJ (the hardest Legacy Open, because of all the Invitational players in the room). http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=72342

Instead of E Tutor, he up's the normal count of Needle and Cage from 1 to 2. I have found very often that E Tutor can clog my draw, preventing me from drawing much needed lands.

Another interesting thing he did was cut the commonly played Wilt-Lief Liege entirely. He must've expected tons of BUG in the room, so this must've been a very conscious decision. I have found Liege clogging my hand in the past, though occasionally its a major blowout. Perhaps he thought that by skewing his maindeck to beat BUG (with 3 Mirran Crusaders), he could afford to lose the Liege?

____________________________________________

The last question I have is about sideboarding, but not the sideboard cards themselves. What matchups do you take out any number of Aether Vials in? Up till now, I generally only did this against Jund, since all I want to do is draw enough threats to outlast their removal. I typically leave in a miser's copy, but no more to avoid dead midgame draws as much as possible. Should I be doing this against Shardless BUG as well? It seems like Vial might be more needed there, since they can explode through the midgame with Ancestral Visions, and we need to be ahead if that happens. Whereas Jund doesn't really have a good way to skip that far ahead on cards (since we can kill Bob).

[Madmankevinx]

Vial is still good against most decks simply because we are usijng our mana (hopefully) to port/waste them out of the early game. Vial lets us still drop our threats for free so we can utilize our lands for that part of the deck's strategy. However, I find Vial to be less than stellar against Nic Fit since they generally have zero countermagic and ramp up in mana so quicly (including basics) that our port/wasteland strategy is usally a non-factor. Its already a rough matchup so vials can come out in my opinion.

[mrjumbo03]

Vial is still good against most decks simply because we are usijng our mana (hopefully) to port/waste them out of the early game. Vial lets us still drop our threats for free so we can utilize our lands for that part of the deck's strategy. However, I find Vial to be less than stellar against Nic Fit since they generally have zero countermagic and ramp up in mana so quicly (including basics) that our port/wasteland strategy is usally a non-factor. Its already a rough matchup so vials can come out in my opinion.

Not to mention that you could expect one or two pops of Pern Deed activations throughout the course of a game. Thankfully I don't face Nic Fit as much over here.

[Bahra]

So infect is pretty popular right now, what have you guys done to react to that? The match up seems pretty bad without adjustments. I've included 2 Gut Shots in my sideboard and since then I am undefeated against infect, it seems like it was just the thing needed to beat it.

[Barook]

Back to brewing!

I'm going to test 2 copies of Land Tax in the MD now, cutting 2 of my 3 Mirran Crusaders until I further figure out into which slots it should go. And no, I'm not kidding.

Played 3 matches today and I do like what I saw alot. Not only does it fix mana-light draws, it also makes your opponent hesitant to play more lands (which plays right into our mana denial strategy) and it's the downright bonkers on the draw. The deck thinning aspect is also nice since it covers another of our weaknesses besides mana screw - mana flood. You draw way more gas this way.

I do think Land Tax is worth further investigation in some form. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting to add junk like Scroll Rack, Mask of Memory or the likes, but stuff like Dust Bowl might be interesting. I'm hesitant on Mox Diamond because while it could prove to be powerful, it just adds further inconsistency and probably eats lands slots, making it even worse.

Any suggestions?

[Elfkid]

Hi there guys, I top8ed on a 18X players tournament with D&T, I´ll write a report tomorrow probably, the deck its awesome, and fuck*** powerfull!!

Regards :laugh:

[Barbed Blightning]

Back to brewing!

I'm going to test 2 copies of Land Tax in the MD now, cutting 2 of my 3 Mirran Crusaders until I further figure out into which slots it should go. And no, I'm not kidding.

Played 3 matches today and I do like what I saw alot. Not only does it fix mana-light draws, it also makes your opponent hesitant to play more lands (which plays right into our mana denial strategy) and it's the downright bonkers on the draw. The deck thinning aspect is also nice since it covers another of our weaknesses besides mana screw - mana flood. You draw way more gas this way.

I do think Land Tax is worth further investigation in some form. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting to add junk like Scroll Rack, Mask of Memory or the likes, but stuff like Dust Bowl might be interesting. I'm hesitant on Mox Diamond because while it could prove to be powerful, it just adds further inconsistency and probably eats lands slots, making it even worse.

Any suggestions?
Good luck with the testing. My gut feeling is that it will be dead more often than not. But I'll be pleasantly surprised if it does well!

@elfkid: looking forward to the report. Always nice to hear about good results. :)

[Barook]

Good luck with the testing. My gut feeling is that it will be dead more often than not. But I'll be pleasantly surprised if it does well!
There should be match-ups where it's dead, sure, but it it's not like we can't make it work:

Flickerwisp fun times (http://i.imgur.com/G34ydUe.jpg)

I flickered his Plains EoT, forcing him to either play a land and giving me another activation or skipping his land drop. He did the former and I pulled ahead further to win shortly after, despite being forced to mull to 5 due to manaflood/no land hands.

Unless they don't ignore you and win right on the spot, an active Land Tax is the stone cold nuts with guaranteed land drops, CA and drawing more gas.

[Barbed Blightning]

There should be match-ups where it's dead, sure, but it it's not like we can't make it work:

Flickerwisp fun times (http://i.imgur.com/G34ydUe.jpg)

I flickered his Plains EoT, forcing him to either play a land and giving me another activation or skipping his land drop. He did the former and I pulled ahead further to win shortly after, despite being forced to mull to 5 due to manaflood/no land hands.

Unless they don't ignore you and win right on the spot, an active Land Tax is the stone cold nuts with guaranteed land drops, CA and drawing more gas.
I guess, but you still have to cut something to make room--a tall order nowadays.

[cursecatcher]

I played a 4 round local event last night, beating Burn and Maverick, then losing to Castlevania and UR Delver, both with 3+ Treasure Cruise. I played a pretty normal list of DnT, but with 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck and an additional in the board. Both matches were 3 games, and I got a bit unlucky to lose them both, but I still think that our archetype has a pretty substantial problem at the moment. Treasure Cruise is just a busted card, and we don't have DRS to fight against it.

Do you all think I'm way off base here?

[Barbed Blightning]

I played a 4 round local event last night, beating Burn and Maverick, then losing to Castlevania and UR Delver, both with 3+ Treasure Cruise. I played a pretty normal list of DnT, but with 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck and an additional in the board. Both matches were 3 games, and I got a bit unlucky to lose them both, but I still think that our archetype has a pretty substantial problem at the moment. Treasure Cruise is just a busted card, and we don't have DRS to fight against it.

Do you all think I'm way off base here?
There are a couple of ways to fight it.

Spirit is the most direct (and fragile) means of stopping it. Some players are already packing two of them.

Jotun Grunt is a lot more durable and can be quite disruptive if he hits early, though DRS can make his cumulative upkeep a tall order at times.

Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus is another proposed means of disrupting Treasure Cruise.

Finally, if you want to get weird with it, Stonecloaker and Samurai of the Pale Curtain are technically options.

[Finn]

Don't tell people that Jotun Grunt is good against Treasure Cruise. It is not. It IS a possibly better card in the emerging environment, but it is not a hoser.

[Barbed Blightning]

Don't tell people that Jotun Grunt is good against Treasure Cruise. It is not. It IS a possibly better card in the emerging environment, but it is not a hoser.
Fine. You're right. He doesn't hit Cruise directly, just tries to limit the size of an opponent's graveyard.

[Barook]

There are a couple of ways to fight it.

Spirit is the most direct (and fragile) means of stopping it. Some players are already packing two of them.

Jotun Grunt is a lot more durable and can be quite disruptive if he hits early, though DRS can make his cumulative upkeep a tall order at times.

Rest in Peace/Relic of Progenitus is another proposed means of disrupting Treasure Cruise.

Finally, if you want to get weird with it, Stonecloaker and Samurai of the Pale Curtain are technically options.
What about Dryad Militant?

[Barbed Blightning]

What about Dryad Militant?
Probably suffers from the same problem as Grunt: timing. We want it early, but there's Vial, Mom and StP to consider. Against the UR deck it sound good though.

[Kayradis]

I'm a bit rusty with the deck, but Top 4 a GPT for GP NJ last weekend with the list.
Just sharing my take

Lands // 23
4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
3 x Karakas
2 x Cavern ofSouls
2 x HorizonCanopy
8 x Plains

Creatures // 26
4 x Thalia,Guardian of Thraben
4 x Mother ofRunes
4 x StoneforgeMystic
2 x Serra Avenger
2 x Spirit of theLabyrinth
2 x AvenMindcensor
3 x Flickerwisp
1 x Brimaz, Kingof Oreskos
2 x MirranCrusader
2 x PhyrexianRevoker

Non-Creature Spells // 11
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fireand Ice
1 x Umezawa’sJitte
4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords toPlowshares

Sideboard // 15
1 x Aegis of theGods
2 x EnlightenedTutor
2 x Rest in Peace
1 x Cataclysm
1 xManriki-Gusari
2 x Runed Halo
2 x EtherswornCanonist
1 x Spirit of theLabyrinth
1 x Sunlance
1 x Meekstone
1 x Oblivion Ring


It ain't the standard list. But I like it. Also Top 2 the Win-An-Uncut-Foil-Sheet at GP Montreal with it (splitted since the TO wouldn't give the sheet to a X-0-1 record, just an X-0)

I might play something in that line in NJ.
Not fully decided yet

[cursecatcher]

Dryad Militant is definitely an interesting suggestion. I wonder if its better than Spirit of the Labyrinth though, for concerns of timing (if you don't get it in play in the first couple of turns. Spirit can come into play t3 via Vial and still stop the Cruise in time, since it seems like t4 is typically going to be when the Delver player is looking to fire it off. It also hurts Brainstorm, Ponder, and Probe too, of course (against which Dryad does nothing).

At this point I am up to 2 Spirits in my maindeck with another in the sideboard. I cut Mindcensor to make room. That card is most valuable against Elves, and Spirit is quite good there too.

[Barook]

I'm still not a fan of Spirit, at least in the MD, since the magical "Respond to Brainstorm by vialing in Spirit" has happened to me only once so far whenever I played SotL. And it sucks in the red zone as soon as any creatures are involved.

On a different note:
I really wonder how good Land Tax really is because it keeps destroying people. Either they underestimate it so much that they don't realize giving me 6+ Plains while significantly thinning out my deck of dead draws + ensuring me a perfect curve while drawing pure gas is a terrible idea or they just have to play lands to not get screwed over.

The high variance in power level (utterly insane on the draw, decent/okay/meh on the play, potentially dead in certain match-ups or late-game) is the only thing that keeps me right now to add a third copy. I do encourage testing of the card because hot damn, that card can be sweet.

[Kayradis]

IRT Land Tax, how many do you run? What slot did you swap for it?
I might give it a spin....
Now I have to find 2 Judge Land Tax.....
FML

[Barook]

I run two since it seems like a safe number until further testing since additional copies are kinda dead. I cut an Avenger and a Crusader for Land Taxes. My current list looks like this:

11 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 Land Tax
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

I've faced only control decks so far, so I can't say in which match-ups against Tempo, Midrange and Combo it's going to be dead. At the very least, it's a brutal anti-control card that could go into our sideboard if it turns out to maindeckable.

My impression from testing Land Tax so far is that it's a very complex card with lots of nuances, like the Flickerwisp shenanigans mentioned above. I think it's going to take alot of time and playtesting to determine it's true value.

[Kayradis]

I might give it a spin in the next few days.
Im almost positive I'll play it in NJ. Im fairly confident in the Control matchup, but it could be a good SB card

[cursecatcher]

Barook, I haven't gotten many, if any, Vial blowouts with Spirit either. But it does neuter 8-16 cards in these Delver decks as long as it stays in play. I just don't know how on earth we keep up with these new builds of Delver if we are letting them Ancestral once or twice in the midgame. Obviously we still have a decent matchup here, but I once considered Delver decks 60-70% matchups. Now it feels waaay more coinflippy.

[Barbed Blightning]

Barook, I haven't gotten many, if any, Vial blowouts with Spirit either. But it does neuter 8-16 cards in these Delver decks as long as it stays in play. I just don't know how on earth we keep up with these new builds of Delver if we are letting them Ancestral once or twice in the midgame. Obviously we still have a decent matchup here, but I once considered Delver decks 60-70% matchups. Now it feels waaay more coinflippy.

Is it really? If you're nullifying everything UR Delver is doing with say an equipped creature (SoFI on Avenger preferably) who cares if they just draw into more dead cards?

Thalia still works. Mom still works. Batterskull/SFM still works. RIP out of the board still works. Let's not get paranoid and lose our cool just because WotC predictably gives Blue players a handy every other set.

[bruizar]

Time seems right or jotun grunt

[bruizar]

Time seems right for jotun grunt

[Kayradis]

And what slot would you dedicate to Grunt?

[cursecatcher]

Barbed Lightning, having played 30-40 games so far against various delver cruise decks, the matchup has certainly gotten worse across the board. BUG still feels like a fine matchup because RIP is such a beating out of the board, but against the red flavors of delver I now feel pretty vulnerable. They are playing 6-7 maindeck burn spells, so the plan of leaning on Mom or Thalia gets ruined most of the time. Also, forked bolt is seeing a lot of play, which can still disrupt us through an active Mom.

I am trying to figure out my list for the GP, and am currently playing 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck, removing the Mindcensors. And I am going to be trying 2 Kor Firewalker in the sideboard to help against UR Delver (and Burn), both of which I expect to be very popular at that tournament.

Losing mindcensor kind of stinks, especially because Elves seems very good at the moment, but Spirit is pretty good in that matchup as well.

After more testing this week I will probably post a decklist for scrutiny (seeing if Kor Firewalker is worth it).

[Barbed Blightning]

Barbed Lightning, having played 30-40 games so far against various delver cruise decks, the matchup has certainly gotten worse across the board. BUG still feels like a fine matchup because RIP is such a beating out of the board, but against the red flavors of delver I now feel pretty vulnerable. They are playing 6-7 maindeck burn spells, so the plan of leaning on Mom or Thalia gets ruined most of the time. Also, forked bolt is seeing a lot of play, which can still disrupt us through an active Mom.

I am trying to figure out my list for the GP, and am currently playing 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth maindeck, removing the Mindcensors. And I am going to be trying 2 Kor Firewalker in the sideboard to help against UR Delver (and Burn), both of which I expect to be very popular at that tournament.

Losing mindcensor kind of stinks, especially because Elves seems very good at the moment, but Spirit is pretty good in that matchup as well.

After more testing this week I will probably post a decklist for scrutiny (seeing if Kor Firewalker is worth it).
My problem with Spirit is how easily it dies to said Forked Bolt or burn spells. If she were a 2/2 maybe... but as yet another X/1 I am having a hard time accepting her.

Firewalker is cool tech, however. The fact that you cannot fetch it with Tutor sucks, so maybe Warmth could be better, but being able to hold an equip is good too.

Maybe we could go big with Sphere of Law? Slow, but turns off a lot of the UR deck.

[Warden]

Call me crazy, and I'm coming from a Maverick background, but Armageddon does some serious work against the Cruise-Delver lists.
I lost to UR in a top 4 last weekend. I didn't realize how few land-lands they run. They are loaded with fetches, so after 3 or 4 basics, they're out (assuming they run that many). PTE was golden but I really should have brought in 'Geddon. They have trouble steamrolling through you if you're bringing in some PTE's/removal. The deck then durdles off a handful of lands. Had I blown out their manabase, I'd walk all over them. Geddon also works well against Miracles....making me think I'm onto something. Just a tidbit I'd share with everyone in the DnT. I think Avenger and Flicker hold the fort against the insect but to bury these delver decks with TC, just take out their mana. They run next to no countermagic (force and daze) -- especially post-board.

[Barbed Blightning]

Call me crazy, and I'm coming from a Maverick background, but Armageddon does some serious work against the Cruise-Delver lists.
I lost to UR in a top 4 last weekend. I didn't realize how few land-lands they run. They are loaded with fetches, so after 3 or 4 basics, they're out (assuming they run that many). PTE was golden but I really should have brought in 'Geddon. They have trouble steamrolling through you if you're bringing in some PTE's/removal. The deck then durdles off a handful of lands. Had I blown out their manabase, I'd walk all over them. Geddon also works well against Miracles....making me think I'm onto something. Just a tidbit I'd share with everyone in the DnT. I think Avenger and Flicker hold the fort against the insect but to bury these delver decks with TC, just take out their mana. They run next to no countermagic (force and daze) -- especially post-board.
Yeah but you could also be filling their yard up for Cruise. That's the horrid thing about Cruise--all they need is one Blue.

Rest in Peace is the most solid answer I think. Beyond that, Spirit of the Labyrinth. Some of us are testing a very light green splash for Gaddock Teeg also.

[cursecatcher]

@Barbed Lightning: My concern with cards like Warmth that are not threats themselves is that this gives UR delver more time to find Sulfuric Vortex, which blanks this type of effect entirely. At least Firewalker is a basically unkillable threat to hold a Jitte or Sword in this scenario? Also it contains Young Pyromancer quite well.

Sphere of Law is very enticing, but I think that boarding in 4 drops against Delver might be a tad ambitious.

On a general sideboarding note, I've started to board in 1 Council's Judgment against almost most Delver decks as an out to potential sideboard True Name Nemeses, Sulfuric Vortex, or other random scary things. Its possible that I am playing too scared, but it has performed decently well when I've drawn it. Having another piece of spot removal to get rid of an Insectile Aberration is typically a welcome sight.

[Barbed Blightning]

@Barbed Lightning: My concern with cards like Warmth that are not threats themselves is that this gives UR delver more time to find Sulfuric Vortex, which blanks this type of effect entirely. At least Firewalker is a basically unkillable threat to hold a Jitte or Sword in this scenario? Also it contains Young Pyromancer quite well.

Sphere of Law is very enticing, but I think that boarding in 4 drops against Delver might be a tad ambitious.

On a general sideboarding note, I've started to board in 1 Council's Judgment against almost most Delver decks as an out to potential sideboard True Name Nemeses, Sulfuric Vortex, or other random scary things. Its possible that I am playing too scared, but it has performed decently well when I've drawn it. Having another piece of spot removal to get rid of an Insectile Aberration is typically a welcome sight.

I usually bring in both Judgments against Delver, over my copies of Mangara. Yes, it is expensive etc. but the Delver decks are morphing into weird midrangey things nowadays--like you said, Vortex, TNN, Lilly etc. Judgment provides a solid answer.

If Firewalker proves good (which he he probably shall if this UR Delver nonsense keeps picking up), please let me know. I have a few copies but I haven't been able to get out enough lately to try them.

[from Cairo]

Is Kor Firewalker better than Fiendslayer Paladin ?

It would seem, the opponent has to be casting more than 2 spells a turn to make +1 life per spell > Lifelink. Firststrike and immunity to Abrupt Decay certainly hold some value, and probably make the card boardable in more matches, idk if it makes it worth +1 mana versus the important matches in question - presumably Burn and Huang's UR deck.

[Barbed Blightning]

Is Kor Firewalker better than Fiendslayer Paladin ?

It would seem, the opponent has to be casting more than 2 spells a turn to make +1 life per spell > Lifelink. Firststrike and immunity to Abrupt Decay certainly hold some value, and probably make the card boardable in more matches, idk if it makes it worth +1 mana versus the important matches in question - presumably Burn and Huang's UR deck.
I think the one mana makes a pretty big difference. But having applications again Jund or even BUG Delver is a worthy consideration.

That said, I think Firewalker is better in the Burn matchup

[Warden]

Is Kor Firewalker better than Fiendslayer Paladin ?

It would seem, the opponent has to be casting more than 2 spells a turn to make +1 life per spell > Lifelink. Firststrike and immunity to Abrupt Decay certainly hold some value, and probably make the card boardable in more matches, idk if it makes it worth +1 mana versus the important matches in question - presumably Burn and Huang's UR deck.

Another issue is that Fiendslayer only has pro-R and pro-B in regards to spells. Fiendslayer is not Paladin-en-Vec -- and I had to look over this caveat.
Kor Firewalker can block red stuff until the end of time. By contrast, Fiendslayer will die to red creatures/permanents. This is relevant in what you're discussing, as the 1/2 UR delver is playing will kill Fiendslayer with any pre-damage pumps. If I wanted something to nerf red, I'd lean on Kor because 1) it's cheaper (relevant against burn and UR delver playing red) + 2) it has true pro-red, not just red spells.

[cursecatcher]

Tested some against UR Delver last night. It seems like it all comes down to how many Bolts they can find. It feels like we can beat 2-3 in a game, but any more than that gets rough. Also, the second Cruise is probably game over.

Kor Firewalker seemed quite potent, but gets trumped by Sulfuric Vortex pretty easily. That said, I think the firewalkers might be worth it to give us more of a fighting chance here and against Burn.

Another thing I saw on SCG (IQ decklists from a recent event in California), is that people are moving from Mirran Crusader to Brimaz. I love Crusader to death, but the BUG matchup is better than the Red ones, so maybe the switch is warranted. That being said, the BUG matchup is good in large part BECAUSE of Crusader, so removing it entirely might be a mistake. Perhaps a mix would be good.

Also, Spirit of the Lab has just been a lightning rod for removal. The games where it has actually screwed someone have been few. That said, keeping removal away from thalia isn't the worst. Yet adding yet another x/1 (and without flying), is not particularly ideal. Though perhaps a necessary evil in a Cruise world? I'm eager to see what happens in the SCG's between now and the GP.

[Madmankevinx]

Has anyone tried a singleton or maybe even a pair of Hero of Bleadeholds? I'm curious to hear. They beat A. Decay and Bolts? Seems good against miracles after a wipe too. Maybe I'm way out of line here and have no clue haha!

[Barbed Blightning]

Has anyone tried a singleton or maybe even a pair of Hero of Bleadeholds? I'm curious to hear. They beat A. Decay and Bolts? Seems good against miracles after a wipe too. Maybe I'm way out of line here and have no clue haha!
Brimaz or Restoration Angel are better in this deck

[Kayradis]

Brimaz is nuts.

[Mr. Froggy]

Brimaz is nuts.

I second this. Brimaz is my finisher of choice.

[cursecatcher]

You guys all like Brimaz over Mirran Crusader at this point? I presume because of all the lightning bolts floating around? (also the synergy with Karakas can be nice occassionally). I've liked Mirran Crusader for the longest time because of how great it is against BUG, but perhaps that's not the matchup that needs help at the moment?

Another idea recommended to me last night is trying to fit back in a couple Mangara, in an effort to go toe to toe late game with Cruise. Spirit of the Labyrinth has been pretty underwhelming for me (being an x/1 on the ground is just awful), so I am thinking to try other ways of handling the recent metagame shifts. I've never played with Mangara, so I will defer to other's opinions of it.

Heck, what if we just played 2 Baneslayer Angels in the board? Is that totally crazy?

[Finn]

I think a lot of people do not like Brimaz, actually. An opponent having access to Karakas is simply awful against this deck. Granted, that does not happen often, but when it does it is terrible. Brimaz is great against red for breaking parity and dodging removal. But Crusader is a major beating for UBG. He is so fast to end those games - in a way that this deck just does not get to do in any other circumstance - that it gives us a defining tool against one of the most popular decks in the format. Brimaz is arguably stronger in a test tube, but kinda vanilla in practice by comparison.

[cursecatcher]

I have been of the same mind for a long time, Finn. Its just started to feel like the rise of Red, particularly Red Cruise Delver decks make Brimaz sound a lot more attractive. Outside of this choice, I'd call BUG a better matchup than the red decks, so perhaps help should be skewed in that direction?

I also saw that Thomas Enevoldsen seems to have 1+ Relic of Progenitus in his 75 somewhere. Perhaps that is the flexible kind of card needed to fight Cruise? Jotun Grunt was recommended a page or two ago, and I am actually coming around to the idea, assuming 4 flickerwisp maindeck. Spirit of the Labyrinth has just been too fragile in my experiences thus far.

Hopefully DnT shows up at the SCG this weekend to give us some clues of what's best moving forward.

[Barbed Blightning]

You guys all like Brimaz over Mirran Crusader at this point? I presume because of all the lightning bolts floating around? (also the synergy with Karakas can be nice occassionally). I've liked Mirran Crusader for the longest time because of how great it is against BUG, but perhaps that's not the matchup that needs help at the moment?

Another idea recommended to me last night is trying to fit back in a couple Mangara, in an effort to go toe to toe late game with Cruise. Spirit of the Labyrinth has been pretty underwhelming for me (being an x/1 on the ground is just awful), so I am thinking to try other ways of handling the recent metagame shifts. I've never played with Mangara, so I will defer to other's opinions of it.

Heck, what if we just played 2 Baneslayer Angels in the board? Is that totally crazy?


Brimaz's big butt is my main reason for including him, yes. Vigilance and spitting out kittens basically every turn is also a big plus, especially in the Young Pyromancer world we are living in (or soon will be, if GP NJ truly proves UR Delver's strength). He is good against more varied matchups (Miracles, Delver, Burn) as well.

I like where you are going with the Mangara comment. I have always enjoyed playing Mangara as it gives you a very solid alternative to combat.

I think Baneslayer, while cool, is a bit over the top. However, I'd still test it for the lulz.

I have a list with one Brimaz, one Restoration Angel if you're curious.


EDIT: here it is, anyway: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/death-taxes-classic/

[Pans-Advocate]

So I think Momme Grupp's top 4 list from Danish Masters (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8310&d=247778&f=LE) has the exact main deck I would play tomorrow in a blind meta, and 13/15 sideboard cards look perfect. What I'm not so sure about is the Kor Firewalker and the Runed Halo. I'm not sold on Firewalker mainly because it's a 1x that isn't tutorable, and it seems like since the list already has a tutor that maybe COP Red is just better? And Runed Halo is just a card that I haven't seen a truly convincing argument for yet ... What problems does it solve so thoroughly that it's worth the slot? I want to fit a Cataclysm or an Armageddon or two in somehow, and the rest of the cards in the board look kind of hard to cut. I've never actually played with Halo though so I might just be missing its value.

[Barbed Blightning]

So I think Momme Grupp's top 4 list from Danish Masters (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8310&d=247778&f=LE) has the exact main deck I would play tomorrow in a blind meta, and 13/15 sideboard cards look perfect. What I'm not so sure about is the Kor Firewalker and the Runed Halo. I'm not sold on Firewalker mainly because it's a 1x that isn't tutorable, and it seems like since the list already has a tutor that maybe COP Red is just better? And Runed Halo is just a card that I haven't seen a truly convincing argument for yet ... What problems does it solve so thoroughly that it's worth the slot? I want to fit a Cataclysm or an Armageddon or two in somehow, and the rest of the cards in the board look kind of hard to cut. I've never actually played with Halo though so I might just be missing its value.
Kor Firewalker is a 2/2. However, I'd run 2.

EDIT: Ah, derp. I see what you are saying.

Also: I don't see why he ran Halo as well. COP Red is decent, but not that great vs UR Delver (YP Tokens kinda defeat it).

[H]

Kor Firewalker is a 2/2. However, I'd run 2.

EDIT: Ah, derp. I see what you are saying.

Also: I don't see why he ran Halo as well. COP Red is decent, but not that great vs UR Delver (YP Tokens kinda defeat it).

I am guessing Halo was for True-Name?

I am trying to think of how my board should be constructed now, with Burn and UR Burn being as popular now as they are. I feel like COP: Red is almost a must, it lets you concentrate your removal on Pyromancer, since it can deal with the rest. Firewalker is good, he can be Vialed, but Price of Progress can still kill you handily.

That being said, I still want some number of Cataclysms versus Miracles (I think) and a couple of Ethersworns for combo along with at least one Grafdigger's Cage (Elves and Combo). I also always pack at least 2 Rest in Peace. It's been a little while since i've played Death and Taxes. How is everyone else's boards shaping up lately?

[Warden]

You have to hedge the % of your meta/room that's playing red. I agree white players should be concerned about red's rise in popularity -- especially for the upcoming GP that will house a billion participants. I expect lots of budget burn throughout day 1.

Kor is good if you sit across from burn and UR all day but do terribly against the rest of the field. COP: Red is a high-risk, high-return card. I'm a bit sour towards COP: Red because I've lost games where the burn player outright kills me without targeting -- flame rift and PoP turn 4/5 gets there. If you want to trouble burn and storm, Leyline of Sanctity has treated me well -- but it's a different approach to handling red.

[H]

You have to hedge the % of your meta/room that's playing red. I agree white players should be concerned about red's rise in popularity -- especially for the upcoming GP that will house a billion participants. I expect lots of budget burn throughout day 1.

Kor is good if you sit across from burn and UR all day but do terribly against the rest of the field. COP: Red is a high-risk, high-return card. I'm a bit sour towards COP: Red because I've lost games where the burn player outright kills me without targeting -- flame rift and PoP turn 4/5 gets there. If you want to trouble burn and storm, Leyline of Sanctity has treated me well -- but it's a different approach to handling red.

I don't understand what you mean by COP being bad because they "kill you without targeting." COP can stop both examples you provided, I don't see how targeting and COP are related. In fact, Circle of Protection doesn't even target the source of damage, you simply just choose one. I feel I probably only have 2 sideboard slots open to shore up the matchup, so I am looking for high impact cards. I feel like COP is probably one of them. I am not sure if the Kor is though, as a 1 of. A possibility is of course, Absolute Law in that spot, but there is the danger of them just going right to the dome with everything anyway and killing you.

The meta I am looking to beat up on is Miracles, Delver (mostly BUG and RUG), some Blade decks, UR and mono-R Burn and some Sneak and Show. That's what I am trying to hone in a board for.

[cursecatcher]

I am not a fan of CoP:Red because it is only really great if you have a Vial. Otherwise you waste turns worth of mana holding up for activations of CoP? It seems like against a good Burn player they will just play their lands and hold their spells. Whenever you tap mana to actually get a threat down, they will overload your CoP with a flurry of spells. Also, are people using E Tutor to find the CoP? If this is the case, turn sequencing seems to be all kinds of wonky. When do you play Vial if you are trying to get the CoP into play as fast as possible? It seems like Kor Firewalker just plays into the natural play patterns of DnT way better than CoP does. Also, Firewalker has utility against UR Delver, where CoP really does not.

This also relates to another question I've been considering regarding Enlightened Tutor. It seems like many people are bringing in this card in way more matchups than I did when I used to play the card. For example, I would never bring it in against BUG Delver to find RIP because I couldn't bear the card disadvantage. The only matchups where I really liked Tutor were against combo decks like Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, and I suppose Elves. Does Tutor continue to deserve its slot as a 1-2 of in the sideboard?

[tescrin]

COP: Red is a high-risk, high-return card. I'm a bit sour towards COP: Red because I've lost games where the burn player outright kills me without targeting -- flame rift and PoP turn 4/5 gets there. If you want to trouble burn and storm, Leyline of Sanctity has treated me well -- but it's a different approach to handling red.

Wait.. so CoP bugs you even though it does block Flame Rift and PoP, but Leyline is what you use and it can't?

In D&T I think Leyline is reasonable, but I should mention that storm's likely plan is Gobbos T1/T2 (or later if they can't quite do it) to get around BSK, Thalia, and Cannonist. Also, chain of vapor is good and paying 4 to set leyline back down would be a sad time while Leylines make horrid topdecks.


In other news:
Aegis of Honor is a card and Absolute Law seems bad. I guess it helps you stick a BSK; but they brought in Smash anyway; so if they have the nuts, they have it. They may just not care and put down vortex as well.

[Fry]

I play two Burrenton Forge-Tender in my board as well as a SoLaS. Forege-Tender does not target so it can stop everything from a lightning bolt, to PoP, to Eidolon for a turn, to Progenitus, and the recursion/life gain from the SoLaS is amazing. Thinking of taking the Forge-Tender count back to three with the rise of red decks.

[Penguinizer]

I'm getting some serious Deja Vu here. I feel like I'm reliving a conversation that this thread had a year or two back. When BFT for Progenitus was a thing.

[H]

I think everyone's points are pretty valid. I guess that versus various types of Burn, Kor Firewalker is probably the best of a series of imperfect "solutions."

How would you guys feel about this sideboard?

2 Rest in Peace
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Wiltleaf Liege
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Cataclysm
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 ???

Again, looking to focus on Miracles, Delver (BUG and RUG), and UR Burn, for the most part.

[zulander]

Haven't read this completely but why aren't people playing CoP Red? I'm playing it in Zoo board and it just destroys Burn, especially since they don't proactively board in Needles.

[from Cairo]

Haven't read this completely but why aren't people playing CoP Red? I'm playing it in Zoo board and it just destroys Burn, especially since they don't proactively board in Needles.

Some players definitely do SB COP:Red especially if the SB shell is already running an ETutor or two. Outside Modo Idk that Burn makes up a large enough percentage of the metagame to devote slots to it. Curving out (Vial, Thalia, Mom off Vial, SFM off Vial) into Equipment can sometimes beat them too.

I think people are looking at the Pro:Red bodies (Kor Firewalker, Burrenton Forge-Tender), because they have application against UR Delver, Burn and of lesser importance Punishing Jund.

[Barbed Blightning]

Wait.. so CoP bugs you even though it does block Flame Rift and PoP, but Leyline is what you use and it can't?

In D&T I think Leyline is reasonable, but I should mention that storm's likely plan is Gobbos T1/T2 (or later if they can't quite do it) to get around BSK, Thalia, and Cannonist. Also, chain of vapor is good and paying 4 to set leyline back down would be a sad time while Leylines make horrid topdecks.


In other news:
Aegis of Honor is a card and Absolute Law seems bad. I guess it helps you stick a BSK; but they brought in Smash anyway; so if they have the nuts, they have it. They may just not care and put down vortex as well.

The issue with Aegis is the same with CoP, except it can't hit creatures and Vortex.

However, I am in general agreement about CoP, though I believe it is the best of the effects in terms of power.

Personally, I am trying some rogue tech in Auriok Champion. Like Firewalker, Champion has Pro-Red and gains us life; unlike Firewalker, we also gain life from our spells (and cards like Brimaz or opposing Young Pyromancer) and our flickers become useful too. Added to that the fact that she has protection from black as well (useful against Jund and BURG) and I really think Champion deserves some testing.

[Oreia]

Hey guys, i won a Legacy Regional with this DnT list and i think it is really good for the meta infested with Cruises

4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [LG] Karakas
10 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
1 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 [AVR] Silverblade Paladin
1 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm
SB: 1 [PLC] Sunlance
SB: 1 [CNS] Council's Judgment
SB: 1 [A] Armageddon
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
(BTW, i went undefeated to top 8 and only lost 2 games in the whole tournment)

These are the changes i've made after the champ: -1 Aven Mindcewnsor MB + 1 Spirit of the Labirinth MB, -1 Spirit of the Lab SB +1 Ethersworn Canonist(she is really good at softlocking the UR Swifstpear/Treasure Cruise decks that are running rampanth in the field.

I'll test the new list against the field, i'm planning on playing this list(with modifications) in the National this year, any thoughts of how good it is or what needs to be changed?

[Barbed Blightning]

Hey guys, i won a Legacy Regional with this DnT list and i think it is really good for the meta infested with Cruises

4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [LG] Karakas
10 [UNH] Plains
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
1 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
1 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 [AVR] Silverblade Paladin
1 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [SHM] Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 [SOM] Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm
SB: 1 [PLC] Sunlance
SB: 1 [CNS] Council's Judgment
SB: 1 [A] Armageddon
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
(BTW, i went undefeated to top 8 and only lost 2 games in the whole tournment)

These are the changes i've made after the champ: -1 Aven Mindcewnsor MB + 1 Spirit of the Labirinth MB, -1 Spirit of the Lab SB +1 Ethersworn Canonist(she is really good at softlocking the UR Swifstpear/Treasure Cruise decks that are running rampanth in the field.

I'll test the new list against the field, i'm planning on playing this list(with modifications) in the National this year, any thoughts of how good it is or what needs to be changed?
Matchups?

[Barook]

I would love to hear more about Silverblade Paladin. It makes stuff like Revoker and Spirit actually not suck in combat. Turning Avengers and Flickerwisps into 6 power beaters isn't too shabby, either.

Edit: The combo with Batterskull also seems pretty hilarious.

[Oreia]

Matchups?

First Round of the Regional: Mirror 2-1, this is where the Silverblades Shine, the Mom usually gets shut down by a revoker or needle so having a double striker is the most easy path to victory

Second Round: Reanimator 2-0, Reanimator is a really easy Matchup, your Spirits shuts down the Grizzys so they can't even reanim ate hi m just to draw 7

Third Round: Shardless Bug 2-0 , Game one was really easy and game two was tricky, all i have to say is that i ended up with a 3/3 Silverblade Paladin soulbounded with a 8/8 Liege equipped with Batterskull... pretty good, hum? hahaha

Fourth round: NO Rug(a friend of mine who ended up going to the finals with me) ID

Fifth Round: Infect: 2-0, Infect is not an easy Matchup but i was on the play on G1 and menaged to mana screw him with Thalia + triple Wasteland and i kept with 3 removals on gama 2,enough to save some time until i could connect with a Jitte

Sixth Round: ID, i can't remember what deck i faced since we ID'd

Top 8: Quarterfinals: Faced the same guy form the third round(a really close friend of mine) and at the end of game 1 my only permanents were a Soulbounded Silverblade Paladin with a Mother of Runes(i really mean those were the only permanents, he destroyed my vial and triple-wastelanded me, fortunately that wasn't enough to beat me)

Semifinals: RW Gobbos, i kept a loose hand on the play and got smashed by double lackey and a SGC, in game two i connected once with a SoFI and he never went back to game, and game 3 was a total trade off of removal spells until the poits where no one had creatures or cards in hand, i topdecked a silverblade paladin, equipped a Jitte in it and won by turnning sideways(i didn't draw a creature in 6 turns, i killed him with a no-bounded paladin! hahahaha)

Finals: NO RUG, he was playing with the deck i designed for him... we are both q'ued for the Legacy Nationals just by making the finals so we decided to ID and never know who is the real champion! hahahah


Final considerations: I removed the Aven from the deck, i love this lovely little birds but it wasn't doing enough to occupy that slot so i replaced him with a second Spirit of the Lab in the maindeck and replaced the Spirit in the board for another Canonist(she got a LOT better with all of those Cruise decks)
The Silverblades were the MVP's, i don't think i would play less than 2, of course he dies to eveything(like the rest of the deck) but if you play around removals during combat you should be in a good position.

The legacy national is within a mounth, either am i playing with DnT or with Battle of Wits(just have to find 300 matching sleeves hahah), but i think DnT is the most favored deck against this cruise-field!

[cursecatcher]

It sounds like you managed to dodge playing against any Cruise decks though, no? I'd be pretty terrified of playing Silverblade against any of these decks with lots of instant speed spot removal.

[Richard Cheese]

I would love to hear more about Silverblade Paladin. It makes stuff like Revoker and Spirit actually not suck in combat. Turning Avengers and Flickerwisps into 6 power beaters isn't too shabby, either.

Edit: The combo with Batterskull also seems pretty hilarious.

Silverblade is a cool idea. I'm not sure if it's better or worse than Mirran Crusader, but double strike is definitely bonkers with any of the equipment this deck runs. Jitte especially allows for some really interesting tricks.

[tescrin]

The issue with Aegis is the same with CoP, except it can't hit creatures and Vortex.


I honestly haven't tried either. My burn MU is abysmal and basically depends on how bad the opposing player is. Once I realized I could be dedicating 4+ cards in the sideboard to it and probably still lose, I just said screw it.

My issue with CoP and (less so) with Aegis is of course holding mana open while they sandbag enough spells to power through it. The only real benefit with Aegis is that they have to potentially kill themselves to sandbag that many spells (and less mana is great.)

With an E Tutor board I'd probably do this or Sun Droplet. Champion does seem reasonable.

[Barbed Blightning]

I honestly haven't tried either. My burn MU is abysmal and basically depends on how bad the opposing player is. Once I realized I could be dedicating 4+ cards in the sideboard to it and probably still lose, I just said screw it.

My issue with CoP and (less so) with Aegis is of course holding mana open while they sandbag enough spells to power through it. The only real benefit with Aegis is that they have to potentially kill themselves to sandbag that many spells (and less mana is great.)

With an E Tutor board I'd probably do this or Sun Droplet. Champion does seem reasonable.

I would advise you that Smash to Smithereens is a common card in the Burn sideboard and Sun Droplet is and artifact.

Champion continues to impress me. I would advise others to test it if they expect heavy UR Delver or Burn.

[Pans-Advocate]

I'm not at Eternal weekend, but I heard my buddy's name mentioned in the coverage ... Apparently he went pretty deep (picked up his second loss in round 9 of 10 I think) with a nonzero number of Chalices in his D&T build? It was a surprise to me to hear and it's possible that the commentators were just mistaken, but I think that's what I heard. I'll see if I can confirm that with him somehow.

[MrShine]

@ Barbed Blightning - The Champion seems like some pretty sweet tech, definitely going to try it out next time I make it to a Legacy night out here. Definitely interested in testing the UR MU, haven't played since Cruise was released (!). Brimaz and Spirit also seem like they are gaining value in the new meta.

--

How much Delver would we need to expect to face to start to consider cutting Revokers? They do pretty much nothing in the Delver MUs; they are maybe at their best vs BUG when you can sort-of lock their DRS or Lili but I always find him underwhelming there anyway (2/1 dies to everything). Although I expect that they pull too much weight in the Miracles, Grieselbrand and random MUs to actually abandon completely...

[H]

I played D&T this weekend for a chance at a Lotus. There was a sharp drop off in prizes though, so I ended up losing in top 8, which didn't feel so bad, as after the last round I honestly thought I was out. Turns out I had the best breakers, as my two losses were top the 2nd and 5th seeds.

I played a fairly stock list, 23 lands with 2 Horizon Canopies. 26 creatures, 1 Mangara, 1 Crusader, 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth and the usual 2 equips (SoFaI, Jitte, BSkull).

Unfortunately, I did not trust my gut however, as I felt like there would be a good number of UR Delver and so my sideboard was a hot mess. I was on the fence about cutting a Judgment for a second Firewalker and ultimately did not. My loses were to the mirror (he had multiple board cards for the matchup and I had essentially none), to UR Delver in the swiss and to someone else on UR Delver in the top 8.

I was very lucky to make it as game 2 of round 4, Reanimator is up a game on me (turn 2 Reanimate Iona), he Force of Wills my RiP and again, Reanimates Iona on his turn 4 after a Careful Study to my board of a lone Mirran Crusader. I keep playing, hoping to find Vial and crawl back in to the game. After about 10 turns where I find double Port and am holding him off any mana, he begins to find lands, so he sets up for a SnT. I see it coming and since he has been frantically digging through his deck, I am wondering if he is going to try to land a Jin-Gitaxis. Am really worried about this, since if I am relegated to just top decks, I almost certainly can't race Iona. Instead, he plays Show and Tell, I put down Spirit he puts down Griselbrand. Well, now things are going to be real rough I think to myself. He then reaches for the Iona and swings. I look at the life totals and can't believe what I see. I am at 20, he is at 4. I untap, draw, he asks if he's dead. I say "protection from Black" swing with the Crusader and we are off to game 3.

Now, here is where it gets more nuts. Game 3, my opening 7 is 1 land, no Vial and I mull. 6 is 1 land, Vial, no action, which I debate, but feel it is too risky (probably should have kept though). 5 is zero lands. 4 is double Waste, 1 Relic, 1 Vial. Keep and resign myself to losing. I play Waste, Vial. He plays Sea, I believe on my turn Entombs Griselbrand in response to me wasting him. Either way, he has no land in play and a Grisel in the yard. Vial ticks to 2,I draw Swords to Plowshares, I play Relic and he Forces. He plays another Sea and Careful Studies, then passes. I waste him, tick Vail to 2. My draw is Spirit of the Labyrinth and I pass. He plays a Petal, plays Reanimate on Grisel. In response I Vial. Resolves and Spirit. He has Grisel and passes. My draw: Plains. Swords his Grisel. From there, he drew nothing, and Vial put in a derp every turn and I win.

The UR matchups were brutal wars of attrition. What cost me was not going with my feeling and having 2 Firewalkers and a COP: Red. 1 and 1 were just not enough. Both matches to 3 games, In my loss during the swiss I was broke off my multiple Smash to Smithereens. In my loss in the top 8, I was broke off by a Null Rod where I drew my 2nd and 3rd Equipment after Stoneforge for Batterskull. From there I drew land after land, so my prayer was for COP: Red (I had 8 mana). Unfortunately, Firewalker came too late to the party, I never found anything else, and died to Pyromancer tokens.

I feel going forward, I think I want 2 Firewalkers and a COP: Red in the board for the UR matchup. I feel it is absolutely winnable, but only with some preparation. Also, life totals are too important, I only wanted to run 1 Canopy, but ran 2. Drawing a Canopy in game 3 of my UR swiss matchup really cost me, as the 2 points of life I had to pay to have double white twice, cost me the game as I had lethal on board, but he hit me with enough tokens and the Bolt for the win.

[Kayradis]

So,
finished 11th at a 40 players events yesterday running my own tweak on the list. Overall?
UR Delver is powerless against us. Spirit suited up with SoFaI is a lock by itself almost.
My only losses were against 12 Post (1-0) and Pox(WTF?!) running Empty the Pits.

Im only running 2 Revoker MD, but the list still requires some tuning.
The Firewalkers in the board were amazing.
Ill post my list tonight!

[Barbed Blightning]

@ Barbed Blightning - The Champion seems like some pretty sweet tech, definitely going to try it out next time I make it to a Legacy night out here. Definitely interested in testing the UR MU, haven't played since Cruise was released (!). Brimaz and Spirit also seem like they are gaining value in the new meta.

--

How much Delver would we need to expect to face to start to consider cutting Revokers? They do pretty much nothing in the Delver MUs; they are maybe at their best vs BUG when you can sort-of lock their DRS or Lili but I always find him underwhelming there anyway (2/1 dies to everything). Although I expect that they pull too much weight in the Miracles, Grieselbrand and random MUs to actually abandon completely...

Champion is definitely good; mostly because you gain off your own creatures too. I would love to hear your results with it.

I have already cut a Revoker for some more power, Delver-focused cards; my list can be found on my blog here: http://enlightenedtutor.wordpress.com

Also, will you be attending the GP, Mr. Shine? If so I would like to see you again!

@H: sorry to hear about the bad beats; that Reanimator match was off the hook, though! I would recommend Auriok Champion for the UR Delver match, personally, maybe alongside a Firewalker.

[Kayradis]

The UR matchups were brutal wars of attrition. What cost me was not going with my feeling and having 2 Firewalkers and a COP: Red. 1 and 1 were just not enough. Both matches to 3 games, In my loss during the swiss I was broke off my multiple Smash to Smithereens. In my loss in the top 8, I was broke off by a Null Rod where I drew my 2nd and 3rd Equipment after Stoneforge for Batterskull. From there I drew land after land, so my prayer was for COP: Red (I had 8 mana). Unfortunately, Firewalker came too late to the party, I never found anything else, and died to Pyromancer tokens.

I feel going forward, I think I want 2 Firewalkers and a COP: Red in the board for the UR matchup. I feel it is absolutely winnable, but only with some preparation. Also, life totals are too important, I only wanted to run 1 Canopy, but ran 2. Drawing a Canopy in game 3 of my UR swiss matchup really cost me, as the 2 points of life I had to pay to have double white twice, cost me the game as I had lethal on board, but he hit me with enough tokens and the Bolt for the win.

I ran 2 Firewalker in the board.
Thalia is pretty bonkers against them.
Im seeing that MU as positive for us at this point IMHO, but im open to more in depth discussion.

[H]

I ran 2 Firewalker in the board.
Thalia is pretty bonkers against them.
Im seeing that MU as positive for us at this point IMHO, but im open to more in depth discussion.

I think I had some subpar luck, indeed, out of 6 games, I was force to mull in 3 of them, one of those to 5. Also, my opponents were prepared for D&T, they had multiple Smash to Smithereens at all times. I think they actually boarded 3 copies to be honest. I even had one guy Vapor Snag one of my creatures. I think the matchup is indeed positive for us, but only with a board designed to beat them. I am weary of cutting too many Revokers though, in game one I played one, jokingly naming Grim Lavamancer. In game 3, he played Grim Lavamancer (I had boarded out my Revokers), :cry:

[Finn]

I don't think we should be shy about going for fewer Revokers. There are a few better creatures right now that we are not playing due to lack of room.

[Barook]

I'm currently running 3 Revoker and 3 Spirits in the MD with another Revoker in the board and like that new configuration so far.

Went 7-1 in the two DEs I played today, only dropping a match to Elves (what else) with Jitte in the sideboard. :eyebrow:

[Zombie]

Went 7-1 in the two DEs I played today, only dropping a match to Elves (what else) with Jitte in the sideboard. :eyebrow:

Riley Curran top8'd with a sideboarded Jitte at the Elf Top4 Open. It's unorthodox, but reasonable enough. Extra removal for fair matchups, turns any random dork into a threat, and is thus annoying for Miracles too. It's the kind of card that does work in a ton of matchups even if it isn't super bonkers in many. But SB space is really tight, so sometimes cards like Jitte is what you have to play.

Oh, and it kills Pikula.

[MrShine]

Champion is definitely good; mostly because you gain off your own creatures too. I would love to hear your results with it.

I have already cut a Revoker for some more power, Delver-focused cards; my list can be found on my blog here: http://enlightenedtutor.wordpress.com

Also, will you be attending the GP, Mr. Shine? If so I would like to see you again!

@H: sorry to hear about the bad beats; that Reanimator match was off the hook, though! I would recommend Auriok Champion for the UR Delver match, personally, maybe alongside a Firewalker.

Interesting list (and nice blog!), I like the direction you are going with Brimaz and your new SB strat. I still don't know about Resto although as with most things it probably warrants being tested before being discarded outright. I still think I'd want the 4th Wisp before any 4 drop, though.

@ Barook, Finn, BB, all - glad to hear positive feedback on the idea of trimming Revoker. Spirit main does seem pretty good although I see the logic behind Barbed leaving them in the side (they just do nothing in the "fair" MUs).

What else could we use some space for? I feel like testing a Grunt in that slot might not be such a bad idea...

EDIT: And No, unless something miraculous happens in the next 2 weeks I don't think I'm going to make it to the GP :( Damn these jobs that give you money for your time!

[Kayradis]

Alright.
So here's my list

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Brimaz
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Flickerwisp

Spells
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
4 STP
4 Aether Vial

Lands
3 Karakas
4 Ports
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains

SB
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Runed Halo
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest In Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Cataclysm
1 Makiri Gusari
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Oblivion Ring


Im still tuning the SB, but Im pretty happy with the MD
I can only foresee some slight changes before NJ

[Kayradis]

Alright.
Julian simply hit me with a brick.
Why did nobody thought about it ahead.

Ghostly. Motherfucking. Prison.

Turns our UR Delver matchup into a joke.
Helps us against Elves.
Could possibly hinder Sneak and Show
An extra piece of hate against Dredge

[Barook]

We are already extremely favored against Sneak & Show.

Dredge is also very positive as long as you bring in proper GY hate.

Ghostly Prison does nothing as they either use Sage or AD to destroy it or just chain DRS activations.

Might work for UR Delver, but 3 mana seems like alot.

[Finn]

Actually I have been thinking about Ghostly Prison myself. If we are going to be meeting up with Young Pyromancers (and Swiftspears) and Elves in the same format, I want a card like this. I was leaning more toward Windborn Muse. But the idea is the same. With big creatures taking a back seat to little creatures, that is the kind of card you want in a deck that limits mana supply.

Barook, you know full well that "they can just kill it with x" is not a good argument. In this case, that is particularly true since the Craterhoof bonus only lasts the one turn. I bet a resolved Prison would gum up the works nicely. Now all you have to do is survive to turn 3.

[Kayradis]

Windborn Muse
Pro:
-Can be vial'd
-Can be protected by mom
-Flyer

Cons:
-CMC of 4

Ghostly:
Pro:
-CMC of 3
-Can be tutor'd
-Can be used in multiple match ups

Cons:
-Non creature spells
-20$ for a foil? FML

[H]

Windborn Muse
Pro:
-Can be vial'd
-Can be protected by mom
-Flyer

Cons:
-CMC of 4

Ghostly:
Pro:
-CMC of 3
-Can be tutor'd
-Can be used in multiple match ups

Cons:
-Non creature spells
-20$ for a foil? FML

You forgot a plus versus Elves is that Muse costs 4, they may well have no way to get rid of it. A minus versus Young Pyromancer is the fact that Muse's butt isn't big enough to live through a Bolt, while they have no way to remove a Ghostly Prison. At least, no list I've seen yet can do anything but counter it.

[Kayradis]

I think a full revision of the SB in regards to GP NJ meta is due.

AFAIK,
2 Tutors
2 Firewalker
2 Rest In Peace
are locked in.
That gives us 9 pieces to play with

[Gheizen64]

I'll probably be trying a couple of Harm's Way for UR and Elves, it should be particularly good vs UR at least i think.

[H]

If I were to play this at the GP, I'd be inclined to go with:

2 Tutors
2 Firewalker
2 Rest In Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sunlance
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Cataclysm
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari

Sunlance is probably pretty lose, but I really feel like versus Pyromancer, he must be answered either as soon as he drops, or on your first turn after he drops. With this, I can save my Swords for him and use Sunlance to pick off random Delvers and Swiftspears as I need to. If they pump the Swiftspear in response, it's not the end of the world, that would be 2 spells they used on your turn and not on their own, so that's less damage your way.

The one card I am really not sold on is Manriki, but I don't know what else to make that last spot.

[Kayradis]

If I were to play this at the GP, I'd be inclined to go with:

2 Tutors
2 Firewalker
2 Rest In Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Sunlance
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Cataclysm
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Manriki-Gusari

Sunlance is probably pretty lose, but I really feel like versus Pyromancer, he must be answered either as soon as he drops, or on your first turn after he drops. With this, I can save my Swords for him and use Sunlance to pick off random Delvers and Swiftspears as I need to. If they pump the Swiftspear in response, it's not the end of the world, that would be 2 spells they used on your turn and not on their own, so that's less damage your way.

The one card I am really not sold on is Manriki, but I don't know what else to make that last spot.

-1 Sunlance
+1 Marrow Shards

It's pretty lose, but I like it.

Edit:
What about Abolish instead of Seal?

[H]

-1 Sunlance
+1 Marrow Shards

It's pretty lose, but I like it.

Edit:
What about Abolish instead of Seal?

I'd try the Shards, sure. I don't think I'd want Abolish, one good thing about Seal is you can Tutor for it, plus you can play it proactively.

[Kayradis]

The neverending quest for foils...!

[T-101]

Windborn Muse seems pretty sweet. What I really like about it is that it can be Vial'd in. That can throw off Elves' mana numbers and basically brick wall a Craterhoof plan.

Against U/R, the bolt sized body is kind of a bummer, but at least it's probably another must-kill, and Forked Bolt doesn't do it. 4 Mana is significantly more than 3, but being that Thalia is a 4-of, Prison will frequently cost the same amount to hard cast.

I'm looking forward to seeing how Prison or Muse pans out for the veteran DnT players here before the GP.

[Kayradis]

I dont know.
I really have to run a gauntlet and run the math for it.
I slightly prefer prison, but I could be wrong.
People also used to say I was crazy of cutting Revoker 4-5 months ago to jam Brimaz and SoFaI MD

[Barbed Blightning]

Interesting list (and nice blog!), I like the direction you are going with Brimaz and your new SB strat. I still don't know about Resto although as with most things it probably warrants being tested before being discarded outright. I still think I'd want the 4th Wisp before any 4 drop, though.

@ Barook, Finn, BB, all - glad to hear positive feedback on the idea of trimming Revoker. Spirit main does seem pretty good although I see the logic behind Barbed leaving them in the side (they just do nothing in the "fair" MUs).

What else could we use some space for? I feel like testing a Grunt in that slot might not be such a bad idea...

EDIT: And No, unless something miraculous happens in the next 2 weeks I don't think I'm going to make it to the GP :( Damn these jobs that give you money for your time!

Too bad you won't make it. :/ However, I know of these jobs you speak of; all of my PTO is going to my GP trip.

Spirit is fine in the main, I think, given that Brainstorm makes up a solid 70% of decks right now. My issue is that I have never seen her perform as spectacularly as others have. Unlike Thalia, where the addition was at first slow then caught on very fast, Spirit has been out for half a year now and is still "pretty meh."

I sideboard them mostly as supplemental hate, not as primary. This Ghostly Prison talk has me thinking, though.



I dont know.
I really have to run a gauntlet and run the math for it.
I slightly prefer prison, but I could be wrong.
People also used to say I was crazy of cutting Revoker 4-5 months ago to jam Brimaz and SoFaI MD

Did you cut all of your Revokers, or just 1-2?

Prison being cheaper is certain a plus; I think if Windborn Muse was a 2/4 I would spring for her. My (personal) problem with Prison is that it requires the Tutor board, and I am not thrilled at the prospect of casting Tutor against Delver decks all day. Obviously against anything like Elves it is nice to have the selection.

Maybe if I cut Resto in my main I can fit Muse...

[MrShine]

I dunno guys, Muse is both CMC4 AND removable by Bolt... I don't think its going to pull much if any weight vs UR. Ghostly Prison on the other hand is pretty much solid once on board. As for the "upside" of being able to Vial in Muse... are we ever going to tick up to 4 against Elves? I'd always want to hold it at 2 to at least threaten Canonist or Spirit. Muse just seems loose. I'd rather have Grafdigger's Cage anyway (not to mention its even better vs Dredge than either of these options).

I think this is very much in "danger of cool things" territory.

[T-101]

I think this is very much in "danger of cool things" territory.

I do have a weakness for "cool things," I'll admit that.

The idea was that with MoM, Thalia, Spirit of the Lab, and Stoneforge threatening a Batterskull, that they aren't going to have a ton of bolts left when Muse shows up... theoretically.

I have next to no experience with this deck, and I was pondering the idea. I'm just desperate to find a way to wreck Pyromancer :(

[Bahra]

No one is playing Gut Shot? I think it's way better than Sunlnce, since you only lose if you get aggro'd out by UR. And Gut Shot makes the infect match up a joke, and gives you a chance vs. elves.

[mrjumbo03]

No one is playing Gut Shot? I think it's way better than Sunlnce, since you only lose if you get aggro'd out by UR. And Gut Shot makes the infect match up a joke, and gives you a chance vs. elves.

What's your latest list Bahra?

[Sereon]

No one is playing Gut Shot? I think it's way better than Sunlnce, since you only lose if you get aggro'd out by UR. And Gut Shot makes the infect match up a joke, and gives you a chance vs. elves.

As of right now I have 2 Gut Shot in my board, not 100% on those but gonna test em tonight. My local meta is literally swarming with UR atm...

[Kayradis]

No one is playing Gut Shot? I think it's way better than Sunlnce, since you only lose if you get aggro'd out by UR. And Gut Shot makes the infect match up a joke, and gives you a chance vs. elves.
I've looked at it.
Every time I played against Infect, I felt our deck was well suited to hinder their battle plan (Thalia and other taxing effects). I've only played the matchup twice (won both matches)

Also, was watching you play the DE on Monday(?) night and your list is pretty similar to mine + or - 2-3 cards

Also, for those asking, I cut 2 Revoker MD a while ago. Never regretted it

[Bahra]

What's your latest list Bahra?


http://www.mtgo-stats.com/decks/123789

But I'm playing 1x Brimaz for a Mirran Crusader now, and there should be 1 Horizon Canopy but they're expensive on modo, I'll get them now though, been doing extremely well lately with this list.

[cursecatcher]

Do you think that you'd alter your list at all for a large paper tournament (like GP NJ)?

[Bahra]

Do you think that you'd alter your list at all for a large paper tournament (like GP NJ)?

Yes. I am going to GP NJ, and my list is currently tuned for MODO meta, which is close to paper meta right now it seems but I am not playing this list for GP NJ. For example, there won't be a lot of miracles at the GP I think so I won't be playing 2x Cataclysm, there will probably be a decent amount of burn because a lot of people who are not familiar with legacy are playing so the COP: Red might stay. There will be more UWR Delver than I've met online so I have to play a Manriki-Gusari and maybe a Disenchant too, along with Council's Judgement.

[Bahra]

I've looked at it.
Every time I played against Infect, I felt our deck was well suited to hinder their battle plan (Thalia and other taxing effects). I've only played the matchup twice (won both matches)

Also, was watching you play the DE on Monday(?) night and your list is pretty similar to mine + or - 2-3 cards

Also, for those asking, I cut 2 Revoker MD a while ago. Never regretted it

2 times is not a lot of times you've played that match up. I've played the match up close to a 100 times and D&T is definitely the dog in the match up, just ask any good Infect player too. The problem is beating a fast Glistener Elf, a couple of Inkmoths or a Blighted Agent. They're very likely to have either so it will be difficult. With 2x Gut Shots I have a hugely positive record against Infect, it seems to just put it over the edge and make the match up very good instead of unfavorable.

I've known Olle Råde for a while and he used to play Infect online, so I've played against him a lot. And then just before Khans, the winning MODO meta was more than 10% Infect. And basically every delver player was playing Infect (now they're all playing UR Delver).

[Barbed Blightning]

I am going to post this here: http://puremtgo.com/sites/default/files/u2206/master.jpg

So, it's probably just a junk rare for us, but I figured it is so far the only thing out of CMD2014 that is even remotely good for us.

[T-101]

That equipment from Commander is cute, but the obvious problem is that it requires another equipment in play.

I'd say it's best hope would be if the deck decides to run a 2nd Batterskull somewhere, and even then, the 2nd actual Batterskull is likely better. Merits testing, but I don't have high hopes for it :(

[H]

Two problems I see with that card is, first, the natural draw of it when you have no equipment out. Second, when you play it and they pop your equipment in response (you could Stoneforge this in so that doesn't happen). The cost you save casting this probably doesn't make it worth these draw backs.

[Barbed Blightning]

White's weenie card for CMD2014 has been spoiled I think: http://cdn.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Hallowed-Spiritkeeper.png

[Pans-Advocate]

It kind of just looks like a bad Brimaz, but if it activates for 3+ (which shouldn't be too hard to engineer) that could be solid value. The fact that it does nothing to interact with the opponent and turns on every single piece of removal in the format is probably a deal breaker though, especially when you consider that Plows and Terminus don't trigger it and it's unplayable vanilla garbage if you have RIP in play. I think it's probably going to stay on the bench in favor of more versatile and impactful 3-drops.

[Barbed Blightning]

GUYS. HOLY SHIT. http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_j7p2zy504e.png

[Kayradis]

I've been on the Brimaz plan since its release now. He can create a lot of tempo for us.

Im trying Ghostly Prison in the board. Also, I am now running only 1 Cataclysm (same argument that Bahra raised)
Will let you know more.

[danyul]

GUYS. HOLY SHIT. http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_j7p2zy504e.png

http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_j7p2zy504e.png

Seems pretty good against Elves and Show and Tell decks. But isn't the nonbo-ness of this with Aether Vial kinda unsexy?

[zeagle]

http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_j7p2zy504e.png

Seems pretty good against Elves and Show and Tell decks. But isn't the nonbo-ness of this with Aether Vial kinda unsexy?

The combo with flickerwisp out-sexies the unsexiness of the aether vial nombo. Also good against reanimator and dredge.

[HammafistRoob]

Is that Tyra Banks?

[Barbed Blightning]

Is that Tyra Banks?

I saw Zoe from Firefly.

I agree, we can always use Flickerwisp to get around her. But the fact she basically invalidates a few strategies on her own (in addition to really helping the Elves match up) means she's a great sideboard option. And Flash is so damn good, too

[HammafistRoob]

I saw Zoe from Firefly.

I agree, we can always use Flickerwisp to get around her. But the fact she basically invalidates a few strategies on her own (in addition to really helping the Elves match up) means she's a great sideboard option. And Flash is so damn good, too

You don't use Flickerwisp to get around her... you use Flick as permanent removal.

[Barbed Blightning]

You don't use Flickerwisp to get around her... you use Flick as permanent removal.
Yeah I just got that. Holy shit.

[danyul]

I'll be honest. I was trying to reverse psychology you guys into thinking this card sucked. But I'm not very sneaky. BRB while I register www.iscontainmentpriestbannedyet.com

[Barbed Blightning]

I'll be honest. I was trying to reverse psychology you guys into thinking this card sucked. But I'm not very sneaky. BRB while I register www.iscontainmentpriestbannedyet.com
Lol.

[Madmankevinx]

Against Elves, how reasonable would it be as a SB option to slam Island Sanctuary after we get an Avenger or Flickerwisp in play and sit back hitting them for 3 a turn??

[Barbed Blightning]

Against Elves, how reasonable would it be as a SB option to slam Island Sanctuary after we get an Avenger or Flickerwisp in play and sit back hitting them for 3 a turn??
They Decay/recsage it and Hoof curb stomps you.

Check out the new card we got if you want to see some good Elves hate

[Pans-Advocate]

I don't know if I can bring myself to run a card that invalidates Aether Vial in a deck where Vial is otherwise the best card. I don't think we really need the help vs the decks that cheat stuff into play (Dredge, Sneak/Show, Reanimator) and Cage does the same work against elves for cheaper. The Flickerwisp synergy is cool for sure but Flickerwisp is SO much worse when you can't Vial it in that it feels like a wash. Honestly I feel like the existence of this card is actually more of a problem for us than a solution ... Stoneblade and Miracles decks now have a weapon that both makes them better against decks that we usually prey on, AND has significant utility against us.

I am curious to hear about how this card playtests, but I am very pessimistic.

[cursecatcher]

Yeah, I find this pretty scary as well. It seems like Deathblade and UWR Delver would both love this card. Why must a new, powerful white 2 drop Human potentially harm, not help us?

[Barbed Blightning]

I don't know if I can bring myself to run a card that invalidates Aether Vial in a deck where Vial is otherwise the best card. I don't think we really need the help vs the decks that cheat stuff into play (Dredge, Sneak/Show, Reanimator) and Cage does the same work against elves for cheaper. The Flickerwisp synergy is cool for sure but Flickerwisp is SO much worse when you can't Vial it in that it feels like a wash. Honestly I feel like the existence of this card is actually more of a problem for us than a solution ... Stoneblade and Miracles decks now have a weapon that both makes them better against decks that we usually prey on, AND has significant utility against us.

I am curious to hear about how this card playtests, but I am very pessimistic.

So, you've never used Needle or Revoker on a Vial in the mirror or against tribal decks?

We need to stop thinking that Vial is the only card that makes this deck work. It's just poor thinking. We often lose Vials to countermagic or destruction spells and yet we can win anyway--how is this card any different? We basically sacrifice the ability to cheat on mana so that our opponent cannot cheat a lot on their mana. Not to mention this card has Flash--we can run out our Vial creatures first then slam her once the time is right, softening the blow as much as possible on our side.

I also really disagree with Wisp being bad outside a Vial, especially if we are exiling creatures permanently with it.


Yeah, I find this pretty scary as well. It seems like Deathblade and UWR Delver would both love this card. Why must a new, powerful white 2 drop Human potentially harm, not help us?

Really? I doubt it will see play in those decks but, even if they do, we have ways to deal with the card. Shutting off Vial helps them (Blade, UWR Delver), yes, but by playing this card they turn our Flickerwisps into removal. I doubt that they will want that.

I also doubt Miracles will play this card, a creature that will easily get swept up by their removal, when they can cast Pithing Needle and laugh all the way to the finish line.

[cursecatcher]

Yeah, you're right Barbed Lightning. This is just a really confusing card.

[Barbed Blightning]

Yeah, you're right Barbed Lightning. This is just a really confusing card.

Some common things (I think) we should understand about the card:

-We can pop her in off a Vial and she won't exile herself.

-Against an opposing Vial, they can elect to not put a creature into play with her in play. This is still great for us.

-If we choose this as our card for Show and Tell or Exhume, our opponent gets to keep their creature, too.

-Priest essentially invalidates Dryad Arbor. If they fetch it, Arbor gets exiled; if they attempt to play it while Priest is in play, Arbor is exiled. Only if they play it before Priest is in play can they get around her

-This also stops Goblin Welder and Kuldotha Forgemaster, at least from sneaking in creatures.

-Her ability is a replacement effect; the creatures never hit play and there's no trigger to respond to, either.

-Again, she has Flash. This mean extra surprise blockers, more flexibility in Combo matchups and pseudo-Haste.

I understand that she does hurt us somewhat, but I really believe that, with testing, she'll prove a worthy piece of hate for some of our more troubling matchups.

[H]

On "getting" a fetched Arbor with the Priest, that just isn't going to happen, unless your opponent is clueless. The same goes for exiling their Craterhoof. In both cases, you have to flash in the Priest in response to them activating the fetch or casting Natural Order. In the case of a fetch, they will just get a land. In the case of NO, they will either fail to find, or let you exile some useless creature (like a Llanowar or something they don't want to top deck).

[Richard Cheese]

In the case of NO, they will either fail to find, or let you exile some useless creature (like a Llanowar or something they don't want to top deck).

Isn't this still a lot better than just losing on the spot?

[H]

Isn't this still a lot better than just losing on the spot?

Absolutely, I apologize if I came across as scoring this card, I was just trying to clarify how us using this card would look.

Making Elves play fairly will buy us time. More time means better chance we can put a Jitte on a flyer and do some work. I still feel we're going to be a dog in the match-up, but I think we might move from almost certainly losing to maybe winning and honestly that's a big upgrade.

[Tylert]

It's probably sideboard material only.
Wondering if we should side it in, in place of Vial :)

[MrShine]

GUYS. HOLY SHIT. http://media.wizards.com/2014/c14/aakdfnppleih2/en_j7p2zy504e.png


OooOo Baby this one is sweet! Tons of creative ways to use it. Love that it has built in flash. Grieselbrand Decks definitely have what's coming to them now! Gonna be tough to beat Revoker + Spirit + THIS GUY (Gal?)

And Dat Flickerwisp tech!

I'm especially stoked about having a catch-all hatebear that hits both Elves AND the Cheaty decks :)

I agree that its unfortunate what it does to Vial but I'm looking forward to seeing how it works in practise.

Yay for new toys!!!

[ESG]

I saw Zoe from Firefly.

I saw Rosario Dawson. Will be picking up 4 of this card.

[cursecatcher]

So, do people think Containment Priest is strictly a sideboard option? Its clearly potent against Elves, Reanimator, SnS, and Dredge. Against any fair deck with creatures it teams up with Flickerwisp as hard removal. Against Miracles its a flash threat that can be Cavern'ed to be uncounterable. Its also simply an x/2 in a format full of Forked Bolts and Young Pyromancer tokens. Just some thoughts, card is very interesting.

[FieryBalrog]

So, do people think Containment Priest is strictly a sideboard option? Its clearly potent against Elves, Reanimator, SnS, and Dredge. Against any fair deck with creatures it teams up with Flickerwisp as hard removal. Against Miracles its a flash threat that can be Cavern'ed to be uncounterable. Its also simply an x/2 in a format full of Forked Bolts and Young Pyromancer tokens. Just some thoughts, card is very interesting.
It seems awful vs. Delver. Which is everywhere right now.

[Barbed Blightning]

So, do people think Containment Priest is strictly a sideboard option? Its clearly potent against Elves, Reanimator, SnS, and Dredge. Against any fair deck with creatures it teams up with Flickerwisp as hard removal. Against Miracles its a flash threat that can be Cavern'ed to be uncounterable. Its also simply an x/2 in a format full of Forked Bolts and Young Pyromancer tokens. Just some thoughts, card is very interesting.
Yes it is a sideboard card. Nowhere near broad enough in application for the main.

[ThePrevailer]

I don't think you need to board out Vial, you can play both and just not use it after this is in play. Vial this in is way better, and harder to play around, than always leaving 1W up. You usually have worse cards to board out, and removing Vial makes your deck clunky in games where where you don't draw this early.