[Deck] Death and Taxes

[BearsandSquires]

Well they are quite similar. I like them both but I'm sticking to Foil Darksteel Æther Vial, since my rule for how my deck should look is that it should be original series/art and foil.

+1 to that, though I occasionally chose the promo in regards to serra avenger and swords to plow shares

[JosephK]

What about Imperial recruiter ? DCI foil or White Border ? I hate both.

[Stevestamopz]

What about Imperial recruiter ? DCI foil or White Border ? I hate both.

English P3K, cos it's more expensive.

[Bahra]

What about Imperial recruiter ? DCI foil or White Border ? I hate both.

I went with the foil because it's foil.

[jake556]

What about Imperial recruiter ? DCI foil or White Border ? I hate both.

P3K not even close :cool:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u33/jake6986/9db646b0-234f-4c24-95d3-dfc679d18567_zpsrhrlzcw7.jpg

[BearsandSquires]

Since adding the red ive also have really liked the addition of fiend hunter and it seems pretty decent right now.

[Stevestamopz]

Had a small tournament today

2-0 W vs Manaless Dredge
1-1 D v Legend Miracles (Mangara <3)
0-2 L v Soldier Stompy
2-1 W v Punishing Jund.

2-1-1, good/bad for 5th overall.

Mangara blew up so many lands today, feelsgoodman

[Bahra]

Had a small tournament today

2-0 W vs Manaless Dredge
1-1 D v Legend Miracles (Mangara <3)
0-2 L v Soldier Stompy
2-1 W v Punishing Jund.

2-1-1, good/bad for 5th overall.

Mangara blew up so many lands today, feelsgoodman

Are we writing reports for standard lists of D&T in 4 round tournaments now? :tongue:

In that case:

I also played a small tournament with standard mono white D&T.

R1: ANT 2-1
R2: Infect 2-1
R3: Grixis Control 2-1
R4: Imperial Painter 2-1

I went 4-0 and managed to beat double Dread of Night on board vs. ANT because I had my 1 of Mindbreak Trap and he had boarded out all of his discard, I then killed him with Serra Avenger. VALUE TRAP!

[Stevestamopz]

Are we writing reports for standard lists of D&T in 4 round tournaments now? :tongue:

Haha, I appreciate how silly it is, but it's thanks to you guys that I'm working my way round this deck. Most of the matches were pretty boring honestly, but the Miracles match was fantastic to play, and following yours and others advice I "ground" out Game 1. Game 2 I mulled down to a terrible 4 card hand and sometimes there's not that much you can do but I was thrilled with the way Game 1 went, even though I made some pretty laughably bad mistakes in hindsight.

Oh yeah, and 4 round tournaments is how the Australian legacy scene roles...:cry:

[Bahra]

Haha, I appreciate how silly it is, but it's thanks to you guys that I'm working my way round this deck. Most of the matches were pretty boring honestly, but the Miracles match was fantastic to play, and following yours and others advice I "ground" out Game 1. Game 2 I mulled down to a terrible 4 card hand and sometimes there's not that much you can do but I was thrilled with the way Game 1 went, even though I made some pretty laughably bad mistakes in hindsight.

Oh yeah, and 4 round tournaments is how the Australian legacy scene roles...:cry:

Grinding down miracles always feels good. It's a match up that takes a lot of skill to play, but once you figured the match up out, you just crush them every time.

I just played first round of a daily with Imperial Taxes against Julian Knab on Omnitell and I completely crushed him. First game I get a turn 3 Thalia down via Æther Vial, and then buy a turn with Flickerwisp to swing for lethal. Next game I have Vial again and turn 2 Stoneforge. He turn 3 show and tells, I put in Ethersworn Canonist with Vial and then put in Imperial Recruiter off Show and Tell and get Leonin Relic-Warder. I untap and Relic-Warder his Omniscience + Equip Sword of fire and Ice to my Ethersworn Canonist, He casts Pyroclasm and passes I draw 2 more Ethersworn Canonists and cast 1 which gets FoW'd then I vial the other one and he untaps, casts Emrakul, attack, I sacrifice 5 lands and Æther Vial and then he concedes.

The whole deck just worked there. Imperial Recruiter for Relic-Warder was awesome.

[BearsandSquires]

Grinding down miracles always feels good. It's a match up that takes a lot of skill to play, but once you figured the match up out, you just crush them every time.

I just played first round of a daily with Imperial Taxes against Julian Knab on Omnitell and I completely crushed him. First game I get a turn 3 Thalia down via Æther Vial, and then buy a turn with Flickerwisp to swing for lethal. Next game I have Vial again and turn 2 Stoneforge. He turn 3 show and tells, I put in Ethersworn Canonist with Vial and then put in Imperial Recruiter off Show and Tell and get Leonin Relic-Warder. I untap and Relic-Warder his Omniscience + Equip Sword of fire and Ice to my Ethersworn Canonist, He casts Pyroclasm and passes I draw 2 more Ethersworn Canonists and cast 1 which gets FoW'd then I vial the other one and he untaps, casts Emrakul, attack, I sacrifice 5 lands and Æther Vial and then he concedes.

The whole deck just worked there. Imperial Recruiter for Relic-Warder was awesome.

Yeah I definitely think relic-warder could be the nuts right now.

[neddsaurus]

Yeah I definitely think relic-warder could be the nuts right now.

what has changed so much that omnitell is becoming more popular?

[BearsandSquires]

Relic-warder helps with the omni tell match up, but at least in the rw version where you can tutor him up it also helps in match ups where you had to cut some useful cards for the red ones. In the rw version you cut a karakas and go to 3 revokers so the snt match up is probably a little worse, so this is another cards for that and is probably also fine against miracles and esper stoneblade (all match ups where the new red cards are a little sub par)

[Barook]

what has changed so much that omnitell is becoming more popular?
They leave out the clunky Dream Halls and Enter the Infinite and run 4x Dig Through Time instead.

[neddsaurus]

They leave out the clunky Dream Halls and Enter the Infinite and run 4x Dig Through Time instead.

is RIP worth boarding in? i see lists running 3. in what scenario would you really want that many?

i see myself boarding in 1-2 for certain matchups, but not sure i'd want the 3rd copy

[Bahra]

Relic-warder helps with the omni tell match up, but at least in the rw version where you can tutor him up it also helps in match ups where you had to cut some useful cards for the red ones. In the rw version you cut a karakas and go to 3 revokers so the snt match up is probably a little worse, so this is another cards for that and is probably also fine against miracles and esper stoneblade (all match ups where the new red cards are a little sub par)

Only the Sneak and show match up gets slightly worse. And no one is on Sneak anymore, everyone is playing omnitell where revokers and karakas are useless. And you're wrong to say the red cards are not good against Miracles and stoneblade. Imperial Recruiter is nuts against miracles and Magus of the Moon is fine to fantastic in both match ups. I have had miracles lose to Magus of the Moon more than once.


is RIP worth boarding in? i see lists running 3. in what scenario would you really want that many?

i see myself boarding in 1-2 for certain matchups, but not sure i'd want the 3rd copy

I board 3 RiP against dedicated graveyard decks as well as against BUG and jund. I want at least 3 pieces of graveyard hate when I face stuff like dredge and ANT. I would never board in RiP against Omnitell. It's not what you want to spend your turn 2 on and if they don't have it turn 3 then you're good anyways.

[Barbed Blightning]

So, I know it's a long shot/maybe cute, but why not consider Jaya Ballard, Task Mage? I know discarding actual cards isn't so hot, but she is Recruitable and her first and second abilities have a lot of use across many matchups, including Omni and Miracles. She's also protected by Karakas, is a human for Cavern, survives Golgari Charm and the like, and fits well on the Vial curve.

Just a thought.

[BearsandSquires]

I wish there was a world where we could play hollowed spirit keeper, that card seems sweet, but doesnt really do enough

[Barook]

So, I know it's a long shot/maybe cute, but why not consider Jaya Ballard, Task Mage? I know discarding actual cards isn't so hot, but she is Recruitable and her first and second abilities have a lot of use across many matchups, including Omni and Miracles. She's also protected by Karakas, is a human for Cavern, survives Golgari Charm and the like, and fits well on the Vial curve.

Just a thought.
Double red plus red activation costs are an absolute no-go.

[Barbed Blightning]

Double red plus red activation costs are an absolute no-go.
Well the activations aren't so rough; if you cast her you can definitely activate her, and I think if I am trading a Revoker/land/extra Thalia for a Delver or Omni, I'm still on the better end of that deal. Obviously this won't always be the case; sometimes you won't be able to use her. However I think she gives us a lot of neat options at the cost of one slot in the deck--not enough to do any real damage to the usual business but still tutorable if we want.

The double red is rough, though
Can't really argue against that. Like I said, it's probably too cute, but I still want to test it out.

[redtwister]

@bahra
What is your list now? Is Leonin-Relic Warder main or side?

[Bahra]

@bahra
What is your list now? Is Leonin-Relic Warder main or side?

This is the list I'm currently playing:

http://i.imgur.com/Cb7RiAS.png

I've cashed both events I've played with Leonin Relic-Warder but then again, I've cashed +90% of the events I've played with the red splash.

Although I do believe that this is an improvement when it comes to playing in an Omnitell heavy meta, which we are in now.

[RingoDeathStarr]

So, I know it's a long shot/maybe cute, but why not consider Jaya Ballard, Task Mage? I know discarding actual cards isn't so hot, but she is Recruitable and her first and second abilities have a lot of use across many matchups, including Omni and Miracles. She's also protected by Karakas, is a human for Cavern, survives Golgari Charm and the like, and fits well on the Vial curve.

Just a thought.


Jaya is good in Painter because of Painter's Servant and Ensnaring Bridge, though she is far from an auto-include in that deck. Outside of the Dread of Night/Golgari Charm scenarios, wouldn't Mangara and finding room for the 3rd Karakas be more on color and effective if you even wanted something like this effect?

[BearsandSquires]

Like the list, but kinda want to play some number of containment priest/ fire walker. Do you think they're not needed now

[Bahra]

Like the list, but kinda want to play some number of containment priest/ fire walker. Do you think they're not needed now

Containment Priest would be nice, but I don't think Kor Firewalker is needed. Burn can be a little rough but if you want to consistently beat burn I suggest an E-tutor sideboard with Circle of Protection: Red.

I just played another daily event losing to Elves, then beating MUD, UB Tezzeret and Miracles (even on a mull to 5 I destroyed miracles (without Æther vial)).

I noticed Hill Giant also played the daily with Imperial Taxes, I saw him play against a streamer that was on Sylvan Plug (with so much D&T hate it was kind of ridiculous).

Hill Giant care to share your experience in the daily?

BTW, next time: Bounce Titania with the return land trigger on the stack, that way he doesn't get any tokens. I don't really understand why you bounced your own Thalia there.

[BearsandSquires]

Was thinking of running this as the sideboard for the Portland scg this weekend:
1 pithing needle
1 leonin relic-warder
1 cataclysm
2 kor firewalker
2 containment priest
2 rest in peace
3 sudden demise
1 council's judgment
2 Ethersworn canonist

[Bahra]

Was thinking of running this as the sideboard for the Portland scg this weekend:
1 pithing needle
1 leonin relic-warder
1 cataclysm
2 kor firewalker
2 containment priest
2 rest in peace
3 sudden demise
1 council's judgment
2 Ethersworn canonist

Not enough storm hate in my opinion. Or omnitell hate.

[MGB]

Not enough storm hate in my opinion. Or omnitell hate.

He plays 2 Canonists.. how much hate do you need?

[Tylert]

He plays 2 Canonists.. how much hate do you need?

2 cannonists without any way to find these.
I think 2 cannists is the right number when you also have 2 enlightened tutors in the sideboard (In this meta of course).
KorFirewalkers seems to be an overkill. It's good vs burn only (let's say goblins also), and I think the matchup vs burn is quite good with the mainboard Batterskull and jitte.
They could easily be replace by those 2 suplementary cannonists.

[Bahra]

He plays 2 Canonists.. how much hate do you need?

Are you new? Do you realize how much combo there is in legacy?

[Zirath]

This is the list I'm currently playing:

I've cashed both events I've played with Leonin Relic-Warder but then again, I've cashed +90% of the events I've played with the red splash.

Although I do believe that this is an improvement when it comes to playing in an Omnitell heavy meta, which we are in now.

The sideboard is interesting. You don't feel Containment Priest is necessary?

How is playing with 0 Serra Avenger? It's always been a card I can rely on.

Is Fiend Hunter better than Mangara?

[BearsandSquires]

So maybe cut the fire walkers for 2 more canonist, was thinking there could be more burn at a scg event then a more broad meta and yeah ive been liking fiend hunter a lot and dont really want to a mangara.

[Koke_MTG]

Hey guys!

I am following this thread for a few months every day but had written only once.

I really like the Imperial Taxes, but I have not enough money to get Imperial Recruiter so I am playing the classic D&T built. Firstly I would have to get the full set of Rishadan Port. I am playing 4x Ghost Quarter right now. I know, it is not the same but it is ok I think. The most notable differences are against control and combo decks but in the other hand, I have a really good matchup against RUG, BUG and 4-C Delver. It is an abuse run 8 Wasteland in these cases. I help them with 2 copies of Aven Mindcensor in mainboard too.

I agree with Bahra in reference to the number of Ethersworn Canonist in the board. It of course depends on the meta, but I think it's a mistake to run less than 3 copies right now. It is an improvement against Elves, Omnitell, Storm and Infect, and against these decks you need her as soon as posible.

Well, I leave here my current sideboard:

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Containment Priest
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Ratchet Bomb
3 x Rest in Peace

Thoughts? Improvements?

Thanks D&T players!

[RingoDeathStarr]

Little write up on Red DnT, and some other variants today @ http://brainstormbrewery.com/new-is-always-better-getting-tricksy-with-death-and-taxes/

[Curby]

Little write up on Red DnT, and some other variants today @ http://brainstormbrewery.com/new-is-always-better-getting-tricksy-with-death-and-taxes/

One red list, zero green lists, three blue lists. Seems like a misrepresentation of the splashes people are actually using and winning with.

[RingoDeathStarr]

To be clear, I didn't write this article or have any affiliation with the site.

[Krion]

One red list, zero green lists, three blue lists. Seems like a misrepresentation of the splashes people are actually using and winning with.

Misrepresentation? I don't believe that it stated anywhere that these are the most popular lists. It's just an article exploring some ideas.

[Curby]

Sure, misrepresentation may be a poor choice of words. But with quotes like:


remained the same for a long time. Until now.


this new take on Death and Taxes that popular MTGO streamer Bahra has been playing recently


the first time I’ve seen the red splash get this much attention.

I was expecting a more even-handed survey of recent developments before diving into experimental brews (i.e. the blue splash decks). That my expectations weren't meant doesn't mean the article is bad. :cool:

[hill_giant]

Containment Priest would be nice, but I don't think Kor Firewalker is needed. Burn can be a little rough but if you want to consistently beat burn I suggest an E-tutor sideboard with Circle of Protection: Red.

I just played another daily event losing to Elves, then beating MUD, UB Tezzeret and Miracles (even on a mull to 5 I destroyed miracles (without Æther vial)).

I noticed Hill Giant also played the daily with Imperial Taxes, I saw him play against a streamer that was on Sylvan Plug (with so much D&T hate it was kind of ridiculous).

Hill Giant care to share your experience in the daily?

BTW, next time: Bounce Titania with the return land trigger on the stack, that way he doesn't get any tokens. I don't really understand why you bounced your own Thalia there.

This was a few days ago, so I don't remember exactly, but I think that was the game where he had like a 9/9 kotr and my deck refused to cough up a third land for rip, so I was planning to bounce Thalia eot or during blocks that turn and use rip to make Thalia able to fight kotr, but he used kotr to get enough mana for Titania targeting a land without a sac ability, so I thought I'd bounce Thalia and use rip to shrink kotr and stop Titania from ever making dudes, so I let the trigger resolve, and then he played a wasteland from his hand and I was just screwed. Also I punted one of the games that round by not playing around rolling spoil when I could have afforded to do so. Round 2 of that DE I played reanimator, won g1 easily, failed to find hate g2, and lost to t1 griselbrand g3 (off of double petal so it didn't even cost life, so he easily countered my STPs and rip was too late)

[BearsandSquires]

For the rw version, how would you guys board against the non delver grixis deck

[koten]

Just wanted to find out why we choose Leonin Relic-Warder over something like War Priest of Thune?

[Bosque]

Relic-Warder can also get any problem artifacts like anything resembling MUD, or an opponent's equipment.

[Bahra]

For the rw version, how would you guys board against the non delver grixis deck

+3 Sudden Demise +2 Council's Judgement +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Leonin Relic-Warder
-4 Swords to Plowshares -3 Phyrexian Revoker

It's a very good match up, they can only win if they have Dread of Night + Null Rod. I've only lost the match up once, and that's when my opponent had Pithing Needle + Dread of Night + Null Rod and I had Thalia and Flickerwisp in hand and didn't draw a creature for literally 13 turns. The only thing I drew were lands and Æther Vials. It was pretty unreal and very tilting but it happens 1 out of a 100 games.

When you board in Demise and Judgement you don't have to rely on Swords to Plowshares to keep Young Pyromancer in check anymore. Ratchet Bomb is for TNN and Dread of Night, Leonin Relic-Warder is for Dread of Night and Null Rod.

[Finn]

Food for thought:

Leonin Relic Warder needs a very specific metagame (several problem artifacts and enchantments that do not get activated) to be any good. Back when it and Revoker came out, I did a rather protracted analysis of how the two affected games (they were competing for the same spots) and found Revoker to be better in a variety of ways. Think carefully about using them if you do not have 4 Revokers already.

[Bahra]

Food for thought:

Leonin Relic Warder needs a very specific metagame (several problem artifacts and enchantments that do not get activated) to be any good. Back when it and Revoker came out, I did a rather protracted analysis of how the two affected games (they were competing for the same spots) and found Revoker to be better in a variety of ways. Think carefully about using them if you do not have 4 Revokers already.

That's just what Dread of Night, Null Rod and Omniscience are: Powerful artifact/echantments that doesn't need to be activated to have an effect :)

[BearsandSquires]

Just finished the Saturday scg legacy challenge with rw dnt. Went 3-0-1, beating goblin prison, fish, and rug, and drawing with dreadnought

[hill_giant]

This just happened to me. Why on earth would he be wasting sideboard slots like this?

http://i.imgur.com/gniBUcf.png

[BearsandSquires]

Well went 5-2 at scg portland, getting 15. Will write what I played later.

[nevilshute]

This list made 13th at yesterday's IQ, notice the one-of main deck Ethersworn Canonist. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84362

What do people think? Is it too deep a stab at the omni deck? I currently run a singleton Spirit of the Labyrinth (that used to be a Mangara) to hedge a little bit against omni. Will Canonist do more work?

[Curby]

With regards to Canonist, let's not overlook the three Storm decks and one Elf combo deck in the top8.

Also red splash made 15th: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84360

[BearsandSquires]

So got 15th at the scg with rw dnt beating goblins, grixis delver, elves, omni tell, and 12 post, while losing to miracles and elves. After playing this event I can definitely say the red splash is absurd. All the red cards did a ton of work all weekend, with fiend hunter being another mvp. Would definitely advise people to at least try the rw version if they can.

[Barook]

Congratz on the finish.

Would you consider switching out 1 Magus for the extra utility of 1 additional Recruiter?

[hill_giant]

This list made 13th at yesterday's IQ, notice the one-of main deck Ethersworn Canonist. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84362

What do people think? Is it too deep a stab at the omni deck? I currently run a singleton Spirit of the Labyrinth (that used to be a Mangara) to hedge a little bit against omni. Will Canonist do more work?

I like the one-of spirit in the mono w version, but canonist is pretty awesome against a lot of decks (and I know Bahra dislikes the spirit). Having a maindeck canonist sounds like it's at least worth testing.

[Tylert]

I'm tempted to play the red splash.
But I Have no imperial recruiters.

Would it be useless to play the red splash without imperial recruiter?
It looks really powerfull but a bit slow (and I can uderstand why we don't play the full 4).

[Barook]

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30766_Five-Decks-Five-Hands.html

What do you think about his decision to keep the hand on the draw?

Maybe I'm just getting rusty, but this hand seems slow, at least on the draw.

[Plague Sliver]

I wouldn't keep it. Falls hard to a lot of decks (Delver, Combo).

[Bahra]

Having thought about it a little, I think it's absolutely a mulligan. There's nothing for combo basically and this hand is only OK against an opponent who plays a dual land and then just passes every turn until we draw something.

"this hand perfectly executes the deck's primary mana denial gameplan"

That is just plain wrong and frankly a little disappointing out of Carsten Kotter. The mana denial plan is the primary plan yes, but this hand does not execute it well. A mana denial plan has to come with something else than just the denying of your opponents mana. Either pressure or a development of your own mana has to accompany the denying of your opponents mana. Denying your opponent of casting spells is only 1 part of the mana denial game plan. And it doesn't work with just 1 part.

Obviously if this hand had a mother of runes or an Æther Vial (preferably) I would snap keep.

If on the play I would probably keep it but it still wouldn't be a solid keep.

[Bahra]

I like the one-of spirit in the mono w version, but canonist is pretty awesome against a lot of decks (and I know Bahra dislikes the spirit). Having a maindeck canonist sounds like it's at least worth testing.

I dislike spirit in general but if there's a cantrip heavy meta (needs to be more than just ponder and brainstorm) then it can be good. And if omnitell gets as popular as miracles then I like spirit. I played 2x Spirits in the treasure cruise era.

I think 12 cantrips is the limit for Spirit being good and +12 and it starts to become main deckable. In the treasure cruise era there was 16 one mana draw spells usually so it was very good. Not stopping Dig through Time is such a major downfall for it though.

[neddsaurus]

for those playing bahra's r/w 75, what do you side in/out against a stoneblade deck like http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9656&d=255505&f=LE ?

i don't know if this is supposed to be a favorable matchup or not, but i tend to do poorly against this & uwr delver. i usually go for SOFI when SFM resolves. it's usually just like, i cast something and they bolt/stp it immediately. any pointers?

i boarded out 3x magus which might have been a mistake. a resolved magus can shut down their council's judgment and TNN if they only run 1 basic island

[commander0ion]

This list made 13th at yesterday's IQ, notice the one-of main deck Ethersworn Canonist. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=84362

What do people think? Is it too deep a stab at the omni deck? I currently run a singleton Spirit of the Labyrinth (that used to be a Mangara) to hedge a little bit against omni. Will Canonist do more work?

I personally love the Ethersworn Canonist and have been playing with 2 main deck since last August. I think that it matches up well against most of the field and even when it will not cripple them it can still choke them enough to let us press an advantage. ( Also I just really like vialing one in in response to a cantrip).

All that said I really really really don't like that list from the scg IQ.

[Bahra]

for those playing bahra's r/w 75, what do you side in/out against a stoneblade deck like http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9656&d=255505&f=LE ?

i don't know if this is supposed to be a favorable matchup or not, but i tend to do poorly against this & uwr delver. i usually go for SOFI when SFM resolves. it's usually just like, i cast something and they bolt/stp it immediately. any pointers?

i boarded out 3x magus which might have been a mistake. a resolved magus can shut down their council's judgment and TNN if they only run 1 basic island

Don't board out Magus, just board out Swords to Plowshares. They HAVE to have 3 basics out when Magus hits the field to avoid its effect. And they are playing 7 duals so they can easily have a dual heavy draw, I've won plenty of games against them with Magus of the Moon shutting them down completely or just enough.

I think it's a bad match up for mono white D&T, but positive for Gw with Choke and positive for Wr because of Magus and Imperial Recruiter being great.

[frenadol]

Against most Stoneblade decks you usually side out StP since their creatures have extremely low value once they hit the battlefield, and you can't target TNN with StP. You side in RIP against DRS, Snappers and DTT so there's no need to kill them with StP.

It's also a very bad idea to overload the deck with noncreature spells while taking creatures out, you want to keep the ratio as close to 1 for 1 as possible. 1 noncreature spell for 1 noncreature spell, and there's 4 StP flots free for whatever SB hate you might want to bring in.

[anakyn]

Against most Stoneblade decks you usually side out StP since their creatures have extremely low value once they hit the battlefield, and you can't target TNN with StP. You side in RIP against DRS, Snappers and DTT so there's no need to kill them with StP.

It's also a very bad idea to overload the deck with noncreature spells while taking creatures out, you want to keep the ratio as close to 1 for 1 as possible. 1 noncreature spell for 1 noncreature spell, and there's 4 StP flots free for whatever SB hate you might want to bring in.


Sorry, I don't get it: you side StP out against a deck which can:
- play a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker on 3rd turn (thx to Mystic)
- play a 3/1 unblockable protected from everything on 2nd turn (thx to Shaman)

?

[Darkgobs]

Sorry, I don't get it: you side StP out against a deck which can:
- play a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker on 3rd turn (thx to Mystic)
- play a 3/1 unblockable protected from everything on 2nd turn (thx to Shaman)?


As you said, TNN is protected from everything. As far as i know, that includes StP too. :wink:
I could miss StP for getting rid of an early DRS in G1, but in G2 you play RiP anyway.
And StP on batterskull's token is sub-optimal, since your opponent can just pay 3 and replay Batterskull via SFM or hardcast.

[razvan]

I think he means StP can kill the enablers, Mystic and Shaman, not the actual threats they produce.

[anakyn]

I think he means StP can kill the enablers, Mystic and Shaman, not the actual threats they produce.

Of course I did, it seemed pretty obvious to me.
Imho siding out StP against Stoneforge decks doesn't make any sense.

[Brentane]

Hey guys. I was curious and saw Abzan Deathblade. I noticed it's built like another hate bear deck but with 3 colours and plays Liliana. It has hard removal and discard to help hate. So here is my question. Why is it Death and Taxes (a mono-coloured deck) is doing better than something like Abzan Deathblade that seems to have more answers? I can't figure it out.

[endqwerty]

@brentane consistency and and better land base and not getting hit by wastelands.

[Brentane]

@brentane consistency and and better land base and not getting hit by wastelands.

Is that it? Just because D&T has more creatures and is hardly affected by wasteland? Seems like a few really small details. Interesting. Anyone want to add onto this? More information on this topic for me would be greatful.

[Bahra]

Of course I did, it seemed pretty obvious to me.
Imho siding out StP against Stoneforge decks doesn't make any sense.

Your honest opinion is wrong.





Is that it? Just because D&T has more creatures and is hardly affected by wasteland? Seems like a few really small details. Interesting. Anyone want to add onto this? More information on this topic for me would be greatful.

Just look at the difference between the decks. Junk blade is a value deck, D&T is a prison deck. We have an insane taxing package of Rishadan Port, Thalia, Wasteland and Revoker. And we have Æther Vial to get us ahead while we deny mana. So we consistently execute a strong mana denial plan while the Junk deck just sits around and try to gain incremental advantages in a field full of decks with powerful tools such as Ponder and Brainstorm (Which the Junk deck doesn't play) that ensures consistency and drawing the right number of lands/spells.

So basically Junk blade is trying to grind but does it poorly and D&T is trying to shut down the opponent via mana denial and it does it consistently and quickly.

[Brentane]

Your honest opinion is wrong.






Just look at the difference between the decks. Junk blade is a value deck, D&T is a prison deck. We have an insane taxing package of Rishadan Port, Thalia, Wasteland and Revoker. And we have Æther Vial to get us ahead while we deny mana. So we consistently execute a strong mana denial plan while the Junk deck just sits around and try to gain incremental advantages in a field full of decks with powerful tools such as Ponder and Brainstorm (Which the Junk deck doesn't play) that ensures consistency and drawing the right number of lands/spells.

So basically Junk blade is trying to grind but does it poorly and D&T is trying to shut down the opponent via mana denial and it does it consistently and quickly.
Alright, that helps a lot thank you.

[sdematt]

Hey guys. I was curious and saw Abzan Deathblade. I noticed it's built like another hate bear deck but with 3 colours and plays Liliana. It has hard removal and discard to help hate. So here is my question. Why is it Death and Taxes (a mono-coloured deck) is doing better than something like Abzan Deathblade that seems to have more answers? I can't figure it out.

Totally different deck. It's also Junk, not Abzan Deathblade. DnT is a resource denial hatebear deck, and Junk is a midrange deck that plays hatebears for bad matchups, generally. Different styles of play.

-Matt

[Barook]

Just look at the difference between the decks. Junk blade is a value deck, D&T is a prison deck. We have an insane taxing package of Rishadan Port, Thalia, Wasteland and Revoker. And we have Æther Vial to get us ahead while we deny mana. So we consistently execute a strong mana denial plan while the Junk deck just sits around and try to gain incremental advantages in a field full of decks with powerful tools such as Ponder and Brainstorm (Which the Junk deck doesn't play) that ensures consistency and drawing the right number of lands/spells.

So basically Junk blade is trying to grind but does it poorly and D&T is trying to shut down the opponent via mana denial and it does it consistently and quickly.
To add to that, while Junk might have a mana denial plan with KotR/Wasteland, they can't attack basics, which we can with Port. Vial is also strong because it provides uncounterable threats and instant speed against stuff like Terminus.

[RingoDeathStarr]

I'm by no means a good or experienced DnT player, but have picked up the deck and am playing the R/W splash Bahra is on, since I had recruiters already.

One thing I've been tinkering with is a 3/2 split of recruiter/magus, like Barook suggested, and the best upside I've found of this (and its a good one well known in painter lists) is the ability to recruiter chain against decks like miracles, ensuring you always have another threat if you get terminused in the late game. Having one on board, one in the hand, and one in the deck with an aether vial out is quite potent. I'm not sure if the miracles matchup alone warrants this, however, as I may just be playing less than optimally if it gets to this point. 3 recruiters also seems better against a slew of decks that don't necessarily care about Magus, I.e. any deck with Lightning Bolt. I realize having Mother of Runes changes this, but they're not always active on board.

Also, the pseudo-mirror against mono white seems abysmal, though again I'm not super familiar with it. I know councils judgement can hit Mom and anything else, but if the mirror is a concern, would anyone advocate increasing the number of judgements or perhaps playing something like Sudden Shock?

[anakyn]

Your honest opinion is wrong.

Or maybe YOU are wrong. Who knows for sure?

Anyway, statements like the one I quoted are just useless and arrogant, and you should avoid them if you don't wanna start a flame.

[frenadol]

Sorry, I don't get it: you side StP out against a deck which can:
- play a 4/4 vigilance lifelinker on 3rd turn (thx to Mystic)
- play a 3/1 unblockable protected from everything on 2nd turn (thx to Shaman)

?

Scenario 1: They play SFM fetching Jitte. You StP killing the SFM. Eh, yeah. No sane Stoneblade player will fetch a turn 2 Batterskull against Death and Taxes unless they already have Jitte in hand.
Scenario 2: They play turn 1 DRS. You StP it ipso facto while having stuff like Vial or Mom in hand. Unless you're on the play without a 1 drop (not very common) I completely fail to see the value in that. Especially when you have 2+ RIPs coming out form the sideboard. Turn 2 True Name Nemesis isn't even that threatening unless they equip it with a Jitte. If you stop the Jitte you can race it just fine. And Jitte is something you cannot stop with a Swords to Plowshares. Neither is TNN.

Sorry but I'm not seeing how can StP be good against Esper/WUR Stoneblade at all. Unless the opponent plays Monastery Mentor and is loaded with sideboard Containment Priests.

It seems that you're worrying about the wrong cards those enablers can power out. SFM fetches Jitte which can win the game by itself, Batterskull is pretty useless against DnT. DRS can power out a turn 2 Liliana which is the main reason for killing DRS against Jund, but TNN isn't something to worry about at all.

Also, you need many of the sideboard cards like RIP, C. Judgment, Disenchant, Choke if you play green, etc. What are you gonna side out if you want to keep those StPs? 4+ creatures? I bet that's gonna work wonders.

[Darkgobs]

Scenario 1: They play SFM fetching Jitte. You StP killing the SFM. Eh, yeah. No sane Stoneblade player will fetch a turn 2 Batterskull against Death and Taxes unless they already have Jitte in hand.
Scenario 2: They play turn 1 DRS. You StP it ipso facto while having stuff like Vial or Mom in hand. Unless you're on the play without a 1 drop (not very common) I completely fail to see the value in that. Especially when you have 2+ RIPs coming out form the sideboard. Turn 2 True Name Nemesis isn't even that threatening unless they equip it with a Jitte. If you stop the Jitte you can race it just fine. And Jitte is something you cannot stop with a Swords to Plowshares. Neither is TNN.

Sorry but I'm not seeing how can StP be good against Esper/WUR Stoneblade at all. Unless the opponent plays Monastery Mentor and is loaded with sideboard Containment Priests.

It seems that you're worrying about the wrong cards those enablers can power out. SFM fetches Jitte which can win the game by itself, Batterskull is pretty useless against DnT. DRS can power out a turn 2 Liliana which is the main reason for killing DRS against Jund, but TNN isn't something to worry about at all.

Also, you need many of the sideboard cards like RIP, C. Judgment, Disenchant, Choke if you play green, etc. What are you gonna side out if you want to keep those StPs? 4+ creatures? I bet that's gonna work wonders.

Well, i agree with almost everything you said...but saying TNN isn't a real threat seems a bit exagerated to me: this card can be a real pain in the ass, even if not equiped (if equpiped soon enough you've lost 90% of the time) and is one of the reason why playing Council's Judgment is really worth it in D&T.
But sure: StP against Esper/UWR Stoneblade sucks indeed.

[endqwerty]

I feel like if we're careful with sofi, our matchup against tnn decks is pretty positive. That and the backup plan or jitte/batterskull a flier. Overall, we provide decks that are playing a 1uu creature a hard to answer threat that can race true-name. Of course jitte witb counters on a tnn is near impossible to beat, but thats just the way jitte is.

[Plague Sliver]

Well, i agree with almost everything you said...but saying TNN isn't a real threat seems a bit exagerated to me: this card can be a real pain in the ass, even if not equiped (if equpiped soon enough you've lost 90% of the time) and is one of the reason why playing Council's Judgment is really worth it in D&T.
But sure: StP against Esper/UWR Stoneblade sucks indeed.

Playing Council's Judgment is not worth it.

[BearsandSquires]

Playing Council's Judgment is not worth it.

Just making sure, but did you just saying playing council judgment is not worth it in DnT

[Plague Sliver]

Yes. Your mileage may vary, but I've not had much success with the card.

Very situational, usually 4 CC with Thalia on the table, and there are better ways to beat/race TNN.

[Bahra]

Yes. Your mileage may vary, but I've not had much success with the card.

Very situational, usually 4 CC with Thalia on the table, and there are better ways to beat/race TNN.

"exile any nonland permanent" = "Very situational"

Yeah no.

[from Cairo]

Council's Judgment has been a house for me out of the board. I find it comes in over STP in a lot of midrange/control matches.

[hill_giant]

Yes. Your mileage may vary, but I've not had much success with the card.

Very situational, usually 4 CC with Thalia on the table, and there are better ways to beat/race TNN.

Council's judgment is great against every deck that doesn't kill you before turn 4. Unless your local meta is all combo, all the time, I'm not sure what makes you think this. Did you go back to o ring to beat omni or something?

[BKclassic]

Can anyone comment on the sideboarding against BUG Delver for the W/r version? There doesn't seem like a card I want to board out besides Sword of Fire and Ice, and I want to bring in Rest in Piece, Leonin Relic-Warder, Ratched Bomb and Council's Judgement.

[Wombo Combo]

Can anyone comment on the sideboarding against BUG Delver for the W/r version? There doesn't seem like a card I want to board out besides Sword of Fire and Ice, and I want to bring in Rest in Piece, Leonin Relic-Warder, Ratched Bomb and Council's Judgement.
I know that when I'm on the BUG side of this matchup I board out some number of daze and some number of FOW. Seems like aether vial isn't that great.

[KobeBryan]

Can anyone comment on the sideboarding against BUG Delver for the W/r version? There doesn't seem like a card I want to board out besides Sword of Fire and Ice, and I want to bring in Rest in Piece, Leonin Relic-Warder, Ratched Bomb and Council's Judgement.

you're over extending. You only really need to bring in RIP

[RingoDeathStarr]

Feel like the councils judgments too for Liliana and possible Dread of Night, but ratchet bomb and relic-warder seem like they might be hollow if you successfully answer one of the two when it matters.

[haymaker18]

I continue to have unsatisfactory results vs fast combo decks. The hate cards we are playing are great but i am dying on turn 1 or generally without getting my turn 2 way too often. Obviously my first thought is to add Mindbreak Trap. It has a certain number of advantages vs storm and "oops all spells" type decks and could certainly help (but is by no means a new idea). The second thought is finding a way to get our already perfect 2-drops into play on our turn 1. If we board in 3-4 lotus petal or mox diamond (think i prefer either to chrome mox), does that not allow us to play thalia/canonist/revoker/containment priest in time to compete with storm, reanimator, oops all spells, tin fins, etc? I realize we play this deck agreeing to lose percentages in these matchups; however, my recent tournament experiences are that i am losing too many matches without being able to cast any of my sideboard cards as they stare at me in my hand. For me, it's bad enough to try something drastic. Let me know if any have experimented with this.

[Wynk]

I continue to have unsatisfactory results vs fast combo decks. The hate cards we are playing are great but i am dying on turn 1 or generally without getting my turn 2 way too often. Obviously my first thought is to add Mindbreak Trap. It has a certain number of advantages vs storm and "oops all spells" type decks and could certainly help (but is by no means a new idea). The second thought is finding a way to get our already perfect 2-drops into play on our turn 1. If we board in 3-4 lotus petal or mox diamond (think i prefer either to chrome mox), does that not allow us to play thalia/canonist/revoker/containment priest in time to compete with storm, reanimator, oops all spells, tin fins, etc? I realize we play this deck agreeing to lose percentages in these matchups; however, my recent tournament experiences are that i am losing too many matches without being able to cast any of my sideboard cards as they stare at me in my hand. For me, it's bad enough to try something drastic. Let me know if any have experimented with this.

When my meta was 90% combo, I bit the bullet and placed 4 Elvish Spirit Guide (not dead as we can vial it in later) and 4 canonists in my 75 to deal with turn 1 and turn 2 "I win" decks. It worked like a charm. If over 50% of you meta is combo, this change can work. However, you will lose percentages vs. the fair matchups. What's your meta like?

[Plague Sliver]

Council's judgment is great against every deck that doesn't kill you before turn 4. Unless your local meta is all combo, all the time, I'm not sure what makes you think this. Did you go back to o ring to beat omni or something?

That's right, there is a fair bit of fast combo around. I understand that CJ answers "everything," and that its run of the board, but here's more justification for why I don't like it:
- there are better answers. Sofi for TNN. Flyers for Jace. Canonist for combo. With SB being tight as it is, I prefer having more hateful answers.
- 3 CC is slow. For the same reason I don't like CJ in Miracles, there are better MD answers for most threats. And it's 4 with Thalia out.
- related to above, when you pay 3 to answer a Goyf or DRS or 2cc thing, it feels like a waste of resources.

So yes, I'm sure some folks love it, but I'm just not a fan. It probably edges the stoneblade matchup more in your favor, so yeah, if you have a lot of that in your meta run 2-3, more power to you.

[Brentane]

This is my current build:

4 Mother of Runes
1 Aegis of the Gods
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Flickerwisp

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
12 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Cataclysm

I swapped a Mangara of Corondor and Brimaz, King of Oreskos out for the Hexproof and Labyrinth enchantment creatures as I find to many white mana symbols a problem when building up a taxing board state. That and I wanted low mana cost creatures that do something to hate on the opponent.

On the topic of double white permenants, I deciding if I want to take the 2 Mirran Crusaders out and replace them with Aven Mindscensors, as they provide hate to fetchlands and tutors while providing me with evasion. The Crusaders seem to just be good if I am facing a lot of BGx strategies with creatures and the double strike has really only sped up my killing power a turn or two earlier, and in each of the situations I've killed with it, I would of killed the opponent any way from the control I had on them. Downside of taking out Crusader is the double activation of my equipments. Although flying with hate is better right?

[haymaker18]

When my meta was 90% combo, I bit the bullet and placed 4 Elvish Spirit Guide (not dead as we can vial it in later) and 4 canonists in my 75 to deal with turn 1 and turn 2 "I win" decks. It worked like a charm. If over 50% of you meta is combo, this change can work. However, you will lose percentages vs. the fair matchups. What's your meta like?
I played 6 rounds of a super IQ yesterday: ANT, RUG Delver, mirror, Sneak/Show, Oops All Spells, Reanimator. Pretty typical, really. There are lots of miracles too but it's uncomfortable that 3-4 of my matchups were trying to prevent my 2nd turn when they had the play. I would say that's representative of my area. Lots of random combo/unfair decks. It's enough for me to try something crazy like spirit guide!

[MGB]

So what do you guys suggest doing if you just want to beat Omnitell at all costs and don't care about weakening your deck in other matchups?

[Curby]

Teegs, Pridemages, Canonists, and Elvish Spirit Guides. The more you care, the more you put in the maindeck. The first two are maindeck staples for the green splash already. I've also used Ensnaring Bridge to good effect in the past against Sneak and Show, but that's much more narrow and gets hard to cast with Thalia.

[Bahra]

Can anyone comment on the sideboarding against BUG Delver for the W/r version? There doesn't seem like a card I want to board out besides Sword of Fire and Ice, and I want to bring in Rest in Piece, Leonin Relic-Warder, Ratched Bomb and Council's Judgement.

board out 3 Phyrexian Revoker board in 2 RiP and a ratchet bomb.

[Tylert]

board out 3 Phyrexian Revoker board in 2 RiP and a ratchet bomb.

Ratchet bomb? I can see why RIP is good (Tarmo+deathrite+tassigur) but they don't produce any tokens, and they have threats at all mana costs (1: Delver + deathrite, 2: Tarmo + confident, 3: Lilianna.... Let's not speak about tassigur :) ) and ratchet bomb is symetrical.
Can't you explain a little bit further?

[Bahra]

Ratchet bomb? I can see why RIP is good (Tarmo+deathrite+tassigur) but they don't produce any tokens, and they have threats at all mana costs (1: Delver + deathrite, 2: Tarmo + confident, 3: Lilianna.... Let's not speak about tassigur :) ) and ratchet bomb is symetrical.
Can't you explain a little bit further?

Ratchet Bomb is a catch all. It's super versatile and most of the time it'll kill a flipped delver or two, or two Deathrites, two Tarmos etc. and if they have Dread of Night then it's an answer for that. RiP doesn't deal with Delver which is basically the only way you can lose to BUG delver, and even with them drawing and flipping delvers, it's still hard to lose. Ratchet Bomb being symmetrical is not super relevant since you control the ability, and if you play with ratchet bomb you'll see that it's never a problem. Since if it's blowing up a stoneforge of yours, then it means that you had an active stoneforge (which is a win). If it's blowing up a mother of runes then it means you had active mom (which is also basically a win) etc.

[useL]

Ratchet bomb? I can see why RIP is good (Tarmo+deathrite+tassigur) but they don't produce any tokens, and they have threats at all mana costs (1: Delver + deathrite, 2: Tarmo + confident, 3: Lilianna.... Let's not speak about tassigur :) ) and ratchet bomb is symetrical.
Can't you explain a little bit further?

Delver costs 0 flipped. Which makes it dead directly with Ratchet Bomb. BUG plays alot of threats on low CMC which makes it easy to catch two of them at the same time.

[Tylert]

Thanks for the answer.

Another question: After all of your testing, is imperial recruiter a must have in the red and taxes version of this deck?

[BearsandSquires]

Thanks for the answer.

Another question: After all of your testing, is imperial recruiter a must have in the red and taxes version of this deck?

Probably, you could maybe play without it, depending how strong magus and sudden demise are in your meta alone, but it's really good.

[Bosque]

Teegs, Pridemages, Canonists, and Elvish Spirit Guides. The more you care, the more you put in the maindeck. The first two are maindeck staples for the green splash already. I've also used Ensnaring Bridge to good effect in the past against Sneak and Show, but that's much more narrow and gets hard to cast with Thalia.

If your meta is honestly 90% combo, you could try something like this. I'm fairly sure trying to jam in part of the ultra mana denial Arbiter build in is extra greedy but what the heck, I figure choking out fetches is useful as well. Transformational sideboard to go back to something resembling a build that might have a chance against fair decks. Warning, this is incredibly rough theorycrafting with no testing involved and it would straight up loose to Blood Moon.

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Mother of Runes
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Flickerwisp
1 Qasali Pridemage

1 Chrome Mox
4 AEther Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares

3 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
3 Razorverge Thicket


SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 4 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 2 Serra Avenger
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard

[hill_giant]

Thanks for the answer.

Another question: After all of your testing, is imperial recruiter a must have in the red and taxes version of this deck?

Recruiter is very, very good in that deck. If dropping $300 or so on a couple recruiters is too hard, you can try it without them (bahra thought it was worth the splash even before trying recruiter). I can't speak to the deck's performance without them (I tested it on modo first, where recruiters are only like 7 tix, then bought paper ones afterwards), but magus is pretty absurd against a large percentage of the field (bug decks crash and burn, infect often scoops to it on sight, blue decks can't shuffle off of their cantrips, etc). Just remember that when you're playing to win, never play a worse version of something else.

[Tylert]

Just remember that when you're playing to win, never play a worse version of something else.

I know that very well... My wife doesn't :)
I'm probably gonna start without the recruiters and see the results...
I Like Magus of the moon, even if I can understand very well the benefits of playing Imperial recruiters (Tutor of every card in our deck, Chaining them vs removal heavy decks, multiple activations with flickerwisp, etc...) and the versatily they bring.

[GoblinZ]

I don't play this deck for a while and just see the Wr version.

what is the point splashing red now? Is this a specific tech for current meta?

[hill_giant]

I don't play this deck for a while and just see the Wr version.

what is the point splashing red now? Is this a specific tech for current meta?

Lots of decks just fold to magus, recruiter is a powerful tool that we'd have been playing for years if it were white, and sudden demise gives us a legitimate blowout against elves (while also being strong against most decks that play creatures).

[GoblinZ]

Lots of decks just fold to magus, recruiter is a powerful tool that we'd have been playing for years if it were white, and sudden demise gives us a legitimate blowout against elves (while also being strong against most decks that play creatures).

But it seems magus is non-synergic with your port, wasteland and karakas?

[endqwerty]

But if we can still cast spells, we're in the game. Our opoonent maybe playing bug w/ no basics. At this point they can't even begin to play Magic anymore.

[Curby]

just see the Wr version.

FYI there's a bunch of talk about the green splash at salvation, which offers different utility (Teeg/Pridemage/Sylvan Library/Choke)... And mono-white still promises the most consistency with over ten basic plains. I'm quite interested to see how the splashes develop compared to the mono-white list.

[sdematt]

I had chirped the GW build a bit back in the Cruise meta, but Im no expert. Wr is likely better for various reasons.

[commander0ion]

I'm still loving the mono white build.
I don't get to play all that often (and in a fairly small meta) so I don't think my opinion carries much weight...... But that consistency.


On another note. Is 4 dedicated beaters too many?

[TalesofDawn]

Hoping to play Worcester this weekend with everyone's favorite deck. I'm personally still a fan of the mono W version over Wr. I value the consistency and fewer 3 drops over the Magus route, but I can see the appeal. Having game against elves is huge for us.

[Colin]

I played a 80 man tournament last weekend. I'm on pretty standard mono white right now. I did sleeve up 1 mangara in the main for this, which i usually don't do, but I didn't know the meta and played it safe. 1 mangara, 1 brimaz, 1 mirran crusader.

I played 7 rounds finishing 5-2. I played against miracles 4 of 7 rounds, with a storm deck, a hard U/W control deck and a RUG delver thrown in for variety. I lost to miracles/bomberman on drawing 14 lands and then drawing 3 total threats in game 2 (20 turns thanks to ports/waste/3x STP), and lost to a loose keep of waste port vial hand and never seeing another land against RUG and a second game of plains- port-threats and a STP, no land showed up to that party either.

One thing that I found increasingly difficult throughout the day was the sideboard plan of Monastary Mentor x3 out of the board from miracles. I usually side out STP for cataclysm and RIP (now that dig and snap are 2-3 in most miracles)

I was wondering how people are boarding for this match now, as it seems rough and you can't cataclysm through a mentor.....I would guess the W/r version would work better as fetches are key in aggressive miracles decks, I'm just not sure I want to be playing this.

thoughts?

[Finn]

Didn't you just say that you went 3-1 against Miracles, and that you only lost the one because of bad draws? What is making you feel uncomfortable about that?

[FoolofaTook]

Didn't you just say that you went 3-1 against Miracles, and that you only lost the one because of bad draws? What is making you feel uncomfortable about that?


At a guess it's the bad draws where he had no hope. That's the only significant weakness of D&T in a meta where the best lists avoid bad draws. It's the reason D&T bounces in and out of the DTB forum while Miracles is there every month.

[LeoCop 90]

Well, it's also the reason why blue is the best color in any given magic format, even more so in legacy where all best cantrips are legal. Unfortunately is very difficult for decks not playing blue to be consistently tier1 in legacy, and this is why i never play blue decks, i don't want to join the dark side.

[henweigh]

What are the best and worst decks against DnT?

[Charon]

What are the best and worst decks against DnT?

Elves feels unwinnable to me, but I like my delver matches almost always

[Finn]

Henweigh - awesome name, btw - almost anything with blue is going to be a good matchup. Stuff without blue starts to get crappy.



Worst:

Elves
Omni




also,

Jund
Belcher



I like my chances with against Miracles and anything with either the name Blade or Delver in it. I like facing Lands too.

[MGB]

The worst deck for Death n Taxes to face is "The Gate" aka Mono Black aggro/control with tons of -1/-1 effects, discard, and edict effects, plus a mono-colored, highly resilient manabase.

Of course, nearly nobody plays that deck anymore, but it was quite a cakewalk for the Gate pilot whenever he faced Death n Taxes.

[plowshares]

The worst deck for Death n Taxes to face is "The Gate" aka Mono Black aggro/control with tons of -1/-1 effects, discard, and edict effects, plus a mono-colored, highly resilient manabase.

Of course, nearly nobody plays that deck anymore, but it was quite a cakewalk for the Gate pilot whenever he faced Death n Taxes.

I keep hearing that "The Gate" has good matchups against various highly played legacy decks. It makes me laugh, if that deck could beat anything people would play it.

When it comes to real decks people play, Finn hit it on the nose, DnT wants no part of Punishing Jund or non-blue combo decks like Elves or Belcher.

[Koke_MTG]

I disagree a bit with your words, Finn.

Firstly, I do not consider Jund a really bad matchup. It is really close I think. It is difficult to deal with that amount of removal but they are sensitive to Stoneforge Mystic, our flyers and Mirran Crusader (this guy plus Mother of Runes could be GG). And we board in RiP, that hurts them a lot too.

So for me All Spells/Belcher decks, Elves and Omnitell are our worst matchups. Depending on the list we can balance a bit rounds against Elves and Omnitell, but the matchup is 40-60% generally in my opinion. Infect could be one of the worst too, at least with my sideboard that have not neither Sunlance nor Gut Shot or removal of this type.

Then I disagree a lot with best matchups. Because I do not qualify Miracles, Blade and Lands like good matchups. They are balanced, but I do not consider them as good matchups. In fact, Jeskai Blade is like a nightmare. I think best matchups are Delver decks (except Jeskai Delver), Reanimator, Merfolks, Sneak & Show (without Omniscience) and Shardless BUG could be too.

I am talking about matchups with mono-white version in my mind of course.

[neddsaurus]

Henweigh - awesome name, btw - almost anything with blue is going to be a good matchup. Stuff without blue starts to get crappy.



Worst:

Elves
Omni




also,

Jund
Belcher



I like my chances with against Miracles and anything with either the name Blade or Delver in it. I like facing Lands too.

i have a hard time with jeskai blade (mono white) - altho red splash helps a bit now. daze, spell pierce, stp, bolt, snapcasters etc. it's hard for me to gain traction when everything is being removed and then their stoneforge resolves and it's game over

[Echelon]

i have a hard time with jeskai blade (mono white) - altho red splash helps a bit now. daze, spell pierce, stp, bolt, snapcasters etc. it's hard for me to gain traction when everything is being removed and then their stoneforge resolves and it's game over

Then try to run stuff that wrecks artifacts... It isn't that hard. Or emulate Elves! and use Thalia + Karakas to stop Batterskull/Jitte dead in its tracks.

Or splash black and lol-troll the shit out of it with Cabal Therapies.

[Koke_MTG]

It is really hard to deal TNN + Equipment for D&T, and harder unable to develop our playstyle because of removal. In our mainboard only have Phyrexian Revoker (will be bolted/plowed instead) and the option to run with flyers... They can find multiples copies of removal with lots of cantrips and the ultimate power of DTT. Those cantrips help a lot finding other bombs like Jace, the Mind Sculptor too.

I think the best way to deal with Jeskai Blade is playing Wg D&T, with tools like Qasali Pridemage, Gaddock Teeg or Choke.

[Wasteland]

Against any stoneforge-based midrange-deck: Just make sure u play the manriki-gusari in the board + 1-2 council's judgement to get rid of annoying equipments. As long as you play enough flyers (4 flickerwisps + some avengers) a lonely TNN isn't that big problem as long as it's not equipped.
Facing death- or esperblade you might get problems vs. zealous persecution... Here the red splash for magus or the green splash for chokes indead helps a lot. But IF you play a splash (green or red) always be aware that your matchup against any tempodeck with wastelands gets worse...

[Colin]

Didn't you just say that you went 3-1 against Miracles, and that you only lost the one because of bad draws? What is making you feel uncomfortable about that?

Obviously the results were in my favor, however any match where a mentor stuck, I got run out of town. Also, I still wanted RIP, Cataclysm sided in, so leaving in STP means i need to cut other cards. We all know that threat density is key against miracles, you NEED to have a board presence, so have +4 spells thats don't attack is pretty rough. I sided jitte and either mirran or brimaz out (depending on if I saw karakas) and 1 or more flickerwisp/serra avenger (I play a 4/2 split), but I never felt 100% behind my sideboard choices.

I guess I'm just more interested in what people are thinking is optiomal?

[dcosiem]

Is Spirit of the Labyrinth justifiable in this deck? What are people's opinions and experience on using him? Is he worth playing in the 75?

[mrjumbo03]

Is Spirit of the Labyrinth justifiable in this deck? What are people's opinions and experience on using him? Is he worth playing in the 75?

In the Treasure Cruise era, yes. But right now, I don't think it's worth it.

[dcosiem]

In the Treasure Cruise era, yes. But right now, I don't think it's worth it.

Like a lot of these new lists that are "top-8ing" scg are running a lot of Mirran Crusaders. I really don't think we need him that badly because flying creatures are just better strategy overall in legacy. For instance, I've beaten Bug without them recently in a competitive tournament match. I really think nowadays, our only bad match up might be either elves or omnishow. I got a secret tech i'm using against elves is Cursed Totem since most of their creatures are utility creatures. I still happen to not have an effective gameplan against Omnishow. Does anyone has had any success against omnishow?

[Bahra]

Like a lot of these new lists that are "top-8ing" scg are running a lot of Mirran Crusaders. I really don't think we need him that badly because flying creatures are just better strategy overall in legacy. For instance, I've beaten Bug without them recently in a competitive tournament match. I really think nowadays, our only bad match up might be either elves or omnishow. I got a secret tech i'm using against elves is Cursed Totem since most of their creatures are utility creatures. I still happen to not have an effective gameplan against Omnishow. Does anyone has had any success against omnishow?

I'm at least beating omni +50% of the time. I am playing Leonin Relic Warder and 4 canonist in the board.

[CptHaddock]

Do any of you guys have any experience playing against plug There seem to be an increase of people playing it in my local meta and I have no real idea how to sideboard against it. I've been doing this: -2 Thalia, -1 Jitte, +2 Council's Judgement, +1 Ratchet Bomb. I figure that Jitte and Thalia don't really do much in this matchup, and that it's nice to have extra removal for whatever bomby creatures that they play and the ratchet bomb is pretty much for when Titania goes out of control. I figure in the postboard they take out things like chokes and bring in even more larger idiots and artifact hate. Am I thinking of this match in the right way? Are there cards that you would sideboard for this matchup? My sideboard is below for reference.

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gut Shot
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
2 Cataclysm
2 Council's Judgement
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Ethersworn Canonist

[haymaker18]

I'm at least beating omni +50% of the time. I am playing Leonin Relic Warder and 4 canonist in the board.

So another 3 round tourney at the LGS last night, another 3 combo decks! First round was Elves. Running your exact 75 at the moment.

Round 1: Elves 2-1
Game 1: I got crushed.
Game 2: I mulliganed and had double Swords into Stoneforge/Jitte and murdered a lot of little green men :)
Game 3: on the draw I resolved Sudden Demise for 2 and got 5 Elves. Just like Bahra drew it up!

Round 2: Tin Fins (yikes) 2-1
Game 1: I got obliterated. He even forgot to put Emrakul back into his maindeck from the last round (no decklists so not much I could do about his error), but he still won pretty easily.
Game 2: This was a classic. I have Revoker on Griselbrand and he's down to 8. He gets Emrakul into play and hits me with it: I sac all 6 of my permanents and drop to 4 (Emrakul is mercifully exiled at end of turn). I have 2 fetchlands in hand, so I hit land drops and ramp to 3 lands with third being Karakas. Play Flickerwisp untapping Karakas. Hit him to 5 and land a Thalia. I am at 1 life now from fetches. He fetches to go to 4 life, taps out to play a 5-mana Tendrils for 1 storm (he goes up to 6 life) and I Swords my Thalia to stay at 1 (I know he has a Child of Korlis, so I need the flying Flickerwisp in play instead of Thalia). Two more swings from Flickerwisp and I get him to exactly 0 while I am at 1. Taking an Emrakul hit and having 0 permanents in play but still winning: achievement unlocked!
Game 3: My hand is great--though being on the draw in this matchup is terrifying. He mulls and isn't thrilled with his hand. I go turn 1 Needle on Griselbrand, turn 2 RIP, turn 3 Canonist, turn 4 2nd RIP, and land a Thalia later soon after. I have Vial on 3 with Flickerwisp ready as well so I can't imagine what he can do (I was ready for a Massacre).

Round 3: Sneak/Show 1-2
Game 1: I know he's on some sort of Show/Tell list, but it's tough to tell which. I see Petals and assume Sneak/Show, but I'm not sure. I Revoker Petal (which is in play) and later Revoker Sneak Attack. I have a Vial on 3 with a Fiend Hunter ready all game as well and a Karakas up. I just attack with 2 revokers over and over for the win. I didn't see much of anything from his deck, so I'm still unsure of exactly how he will abuse Show/Tell.
Game 2: I bring in the Canonists, the Needle, the Relic Warder, and I think 1 Council's Judgment. The Judgment doesn't seem good, but I had a lot of stuff to take out and I figured he might be forced to play something scary and pass the turn (like Show and Tell in an Emrakul). My draw is OK but we get into a situation where I have Fiend Hunter and Canonist in hand. He Show/Tells and I put in Fiend Hunter (still figuring Sneak/Show). He has the Omniscience and it ends poorly for me.
Game 3: This time another Show/Tell resolves and I put in Thalia over Fiend Hunter to attempt to beat Omniscience only to find he has Griselbrand this time. He resolves a Sneak Attack later as well and I don't have quite enough to get it done.

This matchup felt very scary--turns out his Omniscience came in from the board as he was on Sneak/Show. Almost every opportunity I had to guess right in the matchup by putting in certain cards with Show/Tell, I guessed wrong--which was frustrating. Maybe Bahra has some advice? Perhaps it is common for Sneak/Show to transform a bit after board and bring in another scary card in the matchup. I certainly was missing Containment Priest, Oblivion Ring and the 3rd Karakas in the 75. And I know I can't win them all, but I had crushed this same player with the mono white build a week earlier and this was probably my BEST matchup of the 3, so it hurt a bit to feel like I screwed up left/right to find a way to lose. Not seeing Thalia early in any of the 3 games didn't help either. Deck is sweet though!

[frenadol]

The Jund matchup can be extremely difficult or practically free depending on how you build the deck. It just varies widely based on small and seemingly inconsequential card choices. If you make a conscious effort in preparing against Jund the matchup should be very easy.

There are a couple thing to keep in mind, the main one being to pay attention to the toughness of your creatures. Cut down on the X/1's in the maindeck and side more out after game 1. That usually involves getting rid of as many things like Flickerwisp and Revokers as you can afford. I also side out 2 Thalias after sideboard. 3-4 toughness fliers are beast here, like Serra Avenger and Restoration Angel. If you really want a build that destroys Jund here's the one I used a year ago when Jund was everywhere (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1214032). Right now I'm playing a green splash list (http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1240314) that has even less X/1's in the maindeck and I absolutely love how it dodges all those pesky Golgari Charm and Zealous Persecutions.

Also it's impossible for them to get rid of a Moat, so there's that if you want a free win :wink:



Do any of you guys have any experience playing against plug There seem to be an increase of people playing it in my local meta and I have no real idea how to sideboard against it. I've been doing this: -2 Thalia, -1 Jitte, +2 Council's Judgement, +1 Ratchet Bomb. I figure that Jitte and Thalia don't really do much in this matchup, and that it's nice to have extra removal for whatever bomby creatures that they play and the ratchet bomb is pretty much for when Titania goes out of control. I figure in the postboard they take out things like chokes and bring in even more larger idiots and artifact hate. Am I thinking of this match in the right way? Are there cards that you would sideboard for this matchup? My sideboard is below for reference.


Sylvan Plug folds to fast pushing with fliers. You may want a full set of Serra Avenger in the main. Put emphasis on keeping hands with Vial since they have Chalice and 3Sphere. Thalia into mana denial will prevent that deck from ramping up too quickly.

The deck is very similar to Jund in how you have to tackle the matchup in terms of deckbuilding and playstyle since they have largely the same kit when it comes to removal and curve.

I think Thalia is very important here still because they have a high density of noncreature spells (they rely on GSZ) and most of the disruptive spells are also noncreature. It's much better to force them to Abrupt decay for 3 mana to gain time.

[Bahra]

This matchup felt very scary--turns out his Omniscience came in from the board as he was on Sneak/Show. Almost every opportunity I had to guess right in the matchup by putting in certain cards with Show/Tell, I guessed wrong--which was frustrating. Maybe Bahra has some advice? Perhaps it is common for Sneak/Show to transform a bit after board and bring in another scary card in the matchup. I certainly was missing Containment Priest, Oblivion Ring and the 3rd Karakas in the 75. And I know I can't win them all, but I had crushed this same player with the mono white build a week earlier and this was probably my BEST matchup of the 3, so it hurt a bit to feel like I screwed up left/right to find a way to lose. Not seeing Thalia early in any of the 3 games didn't help either. Deck is sweet though!

Sneak and Show siding in a couple of Omniscience is a new thing. But I have never encountered it since you're better off just playing omnitell at this point, and most of the people I play against realize that.

My first instinct is to just ignore the omniscience plan since it's much more likely that they just have a big tough guy. Other than that, I'd watch how the game shapes up and then you can hopefully tell by what your opponent is doing, and how your board looks, which plan your opponent is on and react to that.

[clavio]

Any chance we can get an updated primer on this deck?

[MGB]

Question:

Has anyone given consideration to making a G/W Death n Taxes that plays 4 Collected Company? Yes, I know it's a 4cc noncreature spell, but it still is an insanely powerful card that generates card advantage and mana advantage all in one package. This seems like one of the shells in Legacy that could support it best, given the large number of 2cc-3cc creatures with powerful ETB effects that this deck plays.

[frenadol]

If you want a CA generator that dumps creatures into play from the library just play Yisan. He costs 1 mana less, is a creature himself, and is legendary.

[MGB]

If you want a CA generator that dumps creatures into play from the library just play Yisan. He costs 1 mana less, is a creature himself, and is legendary.

Except that Collected Company puts them into play the turn you cast it, puts two into play at once, isn't vulnerable to spot removal, and does it all at instant speed.

Kind of not even a comparison - Collected Company is like 10 power levels higher than Yisan.

[Bosque]

While CC is clearly a powerful card, it's unlikely that it fits in this deck. We should be using our land to mess with our opponents mana, or equipping, and our own key permanents make spells cost more to cast.

Perhaps something running mana dorks and less interested in creating a creature/land based prison might be a better fit? I could certainly see something that included Noble Hierarch, DRS of Veteran Explorer wanting to ramp into CC.

[Bahra]

If no one minds I'm gonna write a tournament report on the 3 dailies I played yesterday with Imperial Taxes. I'm gonna go over different hands I kept and lines of play, seems like it could generate some discussion now that there hasn't really been any for a few days.

[RingoDeathStarr]

Please do

[mort-]

If no one minds I'm gonna write a tournament report on the 3 dailies I played yesterday with Imperial Taxes. I'm gonna go over different hands I kept and lines of play, seems like it could generate some discussion now that there hasn't really been any for a few days.

As I've played against you yesterday, I'd really like to hear your thoughts on how / why you made some plays.

[Bahra]

So yesterday I had time to play 3 dailies. So it's almost like I played a 12 round tournament :tongue:

I will include a lot of details about the hands I kept and how the games played out, since I think it will help newer and experienced players alike, to see what hands are a keep and which are not, among other things.

The list I played:

Lands (23):

1x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
2x Plateau
3x Plains
3x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

Creatures (26):

4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x flickerwisp
2x Imperial Recruiter
3x Magus of the Moon
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Fiend Hunter

Non-creature spells (11):

4x Æther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15):

3x Sudden Demise
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Council's Judgement
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb

Here's how it went:

Round 1: Merfolk 2-0

Game 1: He's playing merfolk with main deck Jitte, Chalice, Echoing Truth among other things so it's definitely tougher than regular merfolk but he had to spend too many FoW's early and I ran him out of resources and killed him with flyers.

Game 2: I'm on the draw and this is the hand I kept, and I think it's a snap keep:

http://i.imgur.com/geEpPLN.png

Needless to say, I draw a Karakas in my first draw step and the first vial even resolves :cool:

The reason why you want to keep a hand like this though, is that basically all your draws are very good and you're very likely to stick a vial anyways, which merfolk can't deal with.

Round 2: Grixis Delver 2-1

Game 1: He has the triple delver backed up by forked bolts draw and with a solid hand I almost fight through it but lose in the end.

Game 2: I start off with Mother of Runes, he Probes into Cabal Therapy both my Stoneforge Mystics. I play a Thalia and next turn I draw another Stoneforge Mystic. Since he has no creatures on board yet, I get Sword of Fire and Ice and then the game is over.

Game 3: He has turn 1 swiftspear which I basically ignore and I wasteland him a couple of times and establish Flickerwisp + Mother of Runes to hold back his team and then I draw Jitte and he has no lands on board and the game is over

Round 3: Miracles 2-1

Game 1: I am on the draw but resolve Vial, after he deploys 3 basics he still is spending double swords to plowshares (through mother of runes) on a Magus of the Moon, that's how much it annoys miracles. I of course have another Magus of the Moon in hand. And later in the game I fetch Sword of Fire and Ice and end the game.

Game 2: I keep this hand:
http://i.imgur.com/oojln8g.png
By no means a great hand but it can certainly develop into something very good with average to good draws. Turns out he has Swords to Plowshares into Swords to Plowshares into Jace into Council's Judgement on the Revoker I drew + a Monestary Mentor on the same turn.

Game 3: He plays turn 1 Sensei's Divining top into Force of Will my turn 1 Æther Vial, then my turn 2 Æther Vial resolved, he then played Monastery Mentor into Jace, the Mind Sculptor. Pretty good start but Mother of Runes + Stoneforge Mystic + Sword of Fire and Ice deals with Monastery Mentor while he's tapped out for Jace. I then wait to his drawstep to see if he has Terminus, he doesn't, then I Vial in Flickerwisp to Exile Jace for a turn so he can't brainstorm again. From there I have Vial on 3 and 2 Imperial Recruiters in hand and the way to victory is pretty trivial.

Round 4: UR Delver 0-2

Game 1: He has an incredible nut draw, kills me on turn 4 (!!!) despite the fact that I get active Jitte on turn 3 and have Æther Vial into Mother of Runes.

Game 2: I have a solid hand with Mother of Runes, Swords to Plowshares a Ratchet Bomb and some other stuff, but for the rest of the game I only draw Mother of Runes and lands. So this happened:
http://i.imgur.com/g6msXJE.png

so 3-1, not bad but certainly not happy with the result.

On to the next one:

Round 1: Grixis Delver with Deathrite Shaman 2-0

Game 1: He mulligans to 4, probably because he's running only 18 lands including 4 wastelands.

Game 2: I keep this hand:
http://i.imgur.com/eL9Vuh1.png

And he goes Deathrite Shaman -> Young Pyromancer + Spell Snare my Ratchet Bomb -> Young Pyromancer + Brainstorm. But I port and wasteland him to give myself the opportunity to deploy Batterskull (I drew a white source during the first 4 turns) and he gets Sulfuric Vortex online after 1 Batterskull hit, we sit there for about 5 turns until I draw another Stoneforge Mystic and I get Sword of Fire and Ice and kill him.

Round 2: Miracles 2-1

Game 1: I lead off with Mother of Runes he Swords to Plowshares it and play a counterbalance. I have Cavern of Souls and Imperial Recruiter for Stoneforge Mystic that find Sword of Fire and Ice while I wasteland his white source and the game ends there.

Game 2: This happens: http://i.imgur.com/HsDVl8P.jpg

He hides behind Batterskull and brainstorms while I screw myself with Magus of the Moon. First and probably last time that has happened (was a misplay to play the Magus of the Moon in the first place).

Game 3: I grind him out with Flickerwisp and Stoneforge Mystic. I even save my Æther Vial from Disenchant by Vialing in Leonin Relic-Warder to exile it temporarily which made him never want to get rid of the Relic-Warder.

Round 3: Hall of Famer Olle Råde on Belcher 2-1

Game 1: He kills me with the cannon on turn 1

Game 2: He makes 14 goblins on turn 1 and I grind it out with turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic

Game 3: He doesn't have the kill before I get an Ethersworn Canonist down, I have Mother of Runes which protects the Ethersworn Canonist from Pyroclasm on turn 4. Eventually he dies.

Round 4: Esper Stoneblade 2-1

Game 1: I win the die roll and mulligan to 5 and get Thoughtseized on my opponent's turn 1. I concede in response to the Thoughtseize with this hand and a Karakas on board:
http://i.imgur.com/c4NBSXF.png

Might've been stupid to concede since he probably knows I'm on D&T anyways but he might not know about Magus of the Moon which could be crucial.

Game 2: After he goes Thoughtseize into Counterspell into Jace I feel super behind, I Council's Judgement the Jace and started grinding. I eventually manage to turn the situation and steal the game.

Game 3: My opponent goes turn 2 Stoneforge for Jitte but doesn't have a third land. I have port + wasteland + double vial and on my turn 4+5 I Imperial Recruiter for Magus of the Moon and the game is over.

So that's a 4-0, now we're talking :laugh:

On to another daily event!

Round 1: MUD 2-1

Game 1: He goes Lightning Greaves into Metalworker into Blightsteel Colossus and I lose

Game 2: I lead with Æther Vial and he plays turn 2 Metalworker which I revoker. I then deploy Magus of the Moon and he never gets more than 3 mana for the rest of the game.

Game 3: I keep this hand on the draw after my opponent mulligans to 6:
http://i.imgur.com/cwuoxoz.png

I think it's OK, if he has turn 1 Chalice then that's unfortunate but otherwise the hand is good with potential to be amazing.

As it turns out, my opponent mulligans further down to 5 cards and now even if he has chalice he is down on enough cards that he is likely unable to punish me for a slow start IF my vials gets stopped. He doesn't have Chalice but he again has an early Metalworker + Lightning Greaves but he also used a Grim Monolith to play the Metalworker so he's left with 1 card and it is not enough before I kill him with Stoneforge Mystic and the Mirran Crusader I drew.

Round 2: UR Omnitell 2-0

Game 1: I mulligan to 6 and start with Vial. I think he's on UWR stoneblade so I blind name Umezawa's Jitte and he Cunning Wishes for Electrikery and kill half my board. I then play a Magus of the Moon which shuts down my own karakas. I hope that then he will go for Show and Tell + Emrakul and I can Imperial Recruiter for Fiend Hunter then. And as I drew it up, it happens and he dies after losing his precious Show and Tell for no value.

Game 2: He dies to Mother of Runes + Ethersworn Canonist.

Round 3: Junk Maverick 2-1

Game 1: I play Æther Vial on turn 1, he has Pridemage for the Vial but is stuck on 2 lands. I am now stuck with 2 Flickerwisp in my hand as I Port him every turn. Eventually I draw a second white and start jamming flyers and he dies. This game took 15.5 min. for my opponent to complete while it took me about 7 min.

Game 2: I have a weak hand and die within a minute to Deathrite Shaman into wasteland into 2 Knight of the Reliquary.


Game 3: I have turn 1 Æther Vial but by turn 5 I have 5 lands in play and another 2 in hand and I haven't played a creature yet. Eventually I start drawing creatures and put up a fight but I have 11 lands in play at this point so I don't have a lot of cards to play just mostly lands and only 1 of those lands is a wasteland which I can't use due to the opponents Quirion Ranger. Eventually I stabilize at 6 life with opponent also on 6 life and a Sylvan Library in play and he times out. After the daily he messages me to tell me that he managed to 3-1 still and if I would give him a petty pack because he would've won against me (according to him).

Round 4: ANT 0-0-1

Round 4 I split versus an ANT player. It is 2 am. and I want to go to bed :tongue:

So 10-1-1 in 3 dailies I'm fairly happy with. Definitely gonna play this at GP Lille, looking forward to it!

Nothing obvious that I would change about the sideboard. Might cut 1 RiP for something else though.

[BearsandSquires]

Good job Marc. List continues to seem really good, cant wait for gp seattle this fall

[Tylert]

what do you think about the quality of players you played against?
You lost in round 4, and tied, nearly lost in the last 2 matchs of daily 3.
For the grand prix, it might mean an easy start 4-0, then better opponents...
I'm not saying that this itteration of the deck is not good... i'm just trying to assess a little bit more perfectly its powerlevel :)

[Bahra]

what do you think about the quality of players you played against?
You lost in round 4, and tied, nearly lost in the last 2 matchs of daily 3.
For the grand prix, it might mean an easy start 4-0, then better opponents...
I'm not saying that this itteration of the deck is not good... i'm just trying to assess a little bit more perfectly its powerlevel :)

I think the players I faced all played very well. They are also mostly all familiar with my list which makes it harder. The level of play online is just astounding compared to paper, so I am very happy with a result like this. I expect that the general level of play on day 2 of the GP will still be lower than it is online.

There's also a lot of the players from the dailies going to GP Lille actually, and I expect most of them to do well.

[Tylert]

I think the players I faced all played very well. They are also mostly all familiar with my list which makes it harder. The level of play online is just astounding compared to paper, so I am very happy with a result like this. I expect that the general level of play on day 2 of the GP will still be lower than it is online.

There's also a lot of the players from the dailies going to GP Lille actually, and I expect most of them to do well.

Ok :) Good luck then. I cannot make it to GP Lille, but I'll root for all D&T players (Mono white and Red and taxes players).
Did we agree on a name for this particular itteration? I like Red and taxes but you seem to use imperial taxes yourself.

[Stevestamopz]

Ok :) Good luck then. I cannot make it to GP Lille, but I'll root for all D&T players (Mono white and Red and taxes players).
Did we agree on a name for this particular itteration? I like Red and taxes but you seem to use imperial taxes yourself.

Vote Taxcake #1

[Kirika]

@Bahra
Thank you for the reports.

Is the red splash the preferred version for Death and Taxes now? Finally got my 3rd Karakas at GP Atlantic City. Now need to get Imperial Recruiters? I have one in a commander deck so just have to get a 2nd one.

[Bahra]

@Bahra
Thank you for the reports.

Is the red splash the preferred version for Death and Taxes now? Finally got my 3rd Karakas at GP Atlantic City. Now need to get Imperial Recruiters? I have one in a commander deck so just have to get a 2nd one.

I wouldn't say it's the preferred version. It's the preferred version for me though. I think it's better than mono white in general. But it's slightly worse against delver and significantly worse in the mirror.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Ok :) Good luck then. I cannot make it to GP Lille, but I'll root for all D&T players (Mono white and Red and taxes players).
Did we agree on a name for this particular itteration? I like Red and taxes but you seem to use imperial taxes yourself.

I have heard Team Denmark for this variant of Death and Taxes. I think Bahra prefers Imperial Taxes though just because the name is less nondescript.

[koten]

How are you guys dealing with Monastery Mentor out of Miracles' board? He's a real beating, I find.

[Grindsonic]

I am a long time player of the monowhite version of the deck but feel that the meta has shifted to a point where a light splash color may help fix some rougher matchups. The splash color I propose isn't red though, it's black. This is a working outline of what I had in mind along with card explanations:

Dead and Taxes

Lands (23):

1x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
2x Scrubland
3x Plains
4x Flooded Strand
3x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

Creatures (26):

4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Flickerwisp
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Athreos, God of Passage

Non-creature spells (11):

4x Æther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard (15):

4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Zealous Persecution
3x Cabal Therapy
2x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgement
1x Pithing Needle

Card Explainations:

Tidehollow Sculler: This guy lets us interact with the one zone we don't currently interact with, the hand, this should help with our combo matchups. He can act as instant speed targeted discard off of a vial, and can permanently exile a card for free when he is flickered with an instant speed 'Wisp.

Athreos, God of Passage He lets us force our opponent to either give us back the creature lock piece they just removed or take 3 to the face, also he can be vialed in in response to a wrath effect. He often ends up being a huge indestructible beater due to the high number of colored mana symbols in the deck. Lastly he interacts favorably with the Cabal Therapy out of the board.

Zealous Persecution: Mainly a 2 mana instant speed wrath against elves and young pyromancer, but also is counter to golgari charm that kills Deathrite in the process. Can also anthem your team for game ending alpha strikes.

Cabal Therapy: The best and most skill testing discard spell ever printed, no explanation needed really, a house against combo. Can be cast as a followup to Sculler for perfect knowledge of an opponents hand. Makes Brimaz the best choice for our 3CMC beater since his tokens make perfect sac fodder for therapy flashbacks.

This is just a rough outline so any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Bahra]

How are you guys dealing with Monastery Mentor out of Miracles' board? He's a real beating, I find.

I haven't had any problems with him. Usually if they tap out on turn 3 they're pretty dead. Even if I know that my opponent is playing Monastery Mentor I still board out all my Swords to Plowshares. I have started not boarding out Jitte though, since that card is good if they have mentor.

[Finn]

I haven't had any problems with him. Usually if they tap out on turn 3 they're pretty dead. Even if I know that my opponent is playing Monastery Mentor I still board out all my Swords to Plowshares. I have started not boarding out Jitte though, since that card is good if they have mentor.

I board out the Jitte. They never bother to STP my Mystic when I fetch it in game one. That is a strong indicator to me. I have found that Sword of Fire//Ice is the weapon of choice in just about all Miracles matchups, Mentor or no. I can see the value in popping little dudes with counters, but I would be afraid of a response and prowess crapola.

Are you fetching Jitte before the sword?

[MGB]

So Finn, are you on the side of Imperial Taxes or plain white Death n Taxes? What are your latest thoughts / conclusions on splashing red?

[Bahra]

I board out the Jitte. They never bother to STP my Mystic when I fetch it in game one. That is a strong indicator to me. I have found that Sword of Fire//Ice is the weapon of choice in just about all Miracles matchups, Mentor or no. I can see the value in popping little dudes with counters, but I would be afraid of a response and prowess crapola.

Are you fetching Jitte before the sword?

I'm never fetching the Jitte, it's just that I'd rather draw that than any of the sideboard cards I have left. Always go Sword of Fire and Ice and then Batterskull. But then again I haven't really had problems against Monastery Mentor either.

[Finn]

So Finn, are you on the side of Imperial Taxes or plain white Death n Taxes? What are your latest thoughts / conclusions on splashing red?
Eh. I do not have the degree of insider knowledge on this stuff that I used to. I bet there are several posters in this thread who have better insight. I hope they are kind enough to make their thoughts known. That said, I have some generic information that you may find useful.


A long time ago, I complained that the color white did not have a practical finisher. Exalted Angel was the card of choice at the birth of Legacy. But it was only reasonable with sol lands, so not practical. We got Stoneforge Mystic. Not what I thought I was looking for, but D+T used this card for an amazingly long time before any of the Stoneblade decks came about - and it clearly works. Sometime after that I said that what this deck needs is a Glowrider that costs 2. We got it and, well, awesome. As the format has gotten stronger I have been hoping out loud that we would get a card that looks a lot like this:

white's wet dream
creature - thingie
:w:
When ~this~ enters the battlefield, you may discard a creature card. If you do, search your library for a white creature card and put it in your hand. If you don't, sacrifice ~this~.
1/1

Or something like that. It is aggressively priced, but probably not OP because of the strict requirements. We do not have it, but Imperial Recruiter is a sorta facsimile of it. Kinda. I am tickled that Bahra has begun this experiment. I have been wondering about it for quite some time, and never put in the time to find out if it can fly. Thing is though, green has some similar tools in Zenith, Teeg, and company. You could take the deck in that direction also, as many have. In the end you get Maverick. It is a good deck, to be sure. But it does not perform as well as D+T because you both gain and lose when you make the switch. The jury is still out on whether the gain from Imperial is worth the loss.

So I definitely want it to work. But there have been a lot of ideas that have come and gone to this deck. A lot of good ones, in fact. It is just that the bar is very high for Legacy. I am doubtful that the splash is straight-up better. The more likely scenario is that it is markedly improves some while diluting most others. Is that a net gain? I guess that depends on which of those decks have more format presence, which is a big, complicated topic.

[Luca Grease]

Hello everyone,

I haven't been able to play Magic in a couple of months, and I am looking to brush up my (mono-white) DnT list before getting back into the game soon. My main question concerns the use of anti-combo sideboard slots: do you guys think it's still worth it to pack a couple of Containment Priests and a singleton Spirit of the Labyrinth, or are we better served just maxing out on Ethersworn Canonist?

The idea is that Omni-Tell seems to have largely supplanted Sneak and Show as the Show and Tell deck of choice, and Canonist is probably better than SoTL against them now that they no longer go off through Enter the Infinite.
Against Elves, all three cards are good to the point that it could be considered a wash, although there are merits to diversifying your angles of attack.
Against ANT, Canonist is often our only saving grace in post-board games if they bring in Dread of Night, so more copies of it will directly and substantially improve the match-up.
Priest remains superior against S&S, Reanimator, and Dredge, but none of those seems to be particularly common right now, and we have a boatload of good stuff against the first two anyway. Infect is probably more common than any of those three, and once again Canonist is the clear winner there.

All in all, Canonist's stock relative to CP seems to be at an all time high, and, in the matches where Priest shines, we either remain quite strong, or Canonist works as a viable alternative. I was previously running a 2/2 split, but I will certainly at least try a 3/1 split in favor of Canonist, and take it from there. Spirit is probably the weakest of the three, but it has wide enough utility that I will probably keep the singleton for the moment, if only to increase my chances of attacking from different angles rather than having redundant multiples of the same hatebear (also, gotta keep the vial-in-response-to-brainstorm dream alive).

Thoughts?

BONUS QUESTION: would you side in some number of Ethersworn Canonists against Sneak and Show? Specifically, would you side them over part of the stoneforge package?

[carefulmug]

That said, I have some generic information that you may find useful.

I logged in just to say what followed is perhaps the most level and balanced post I've read in any forum. Cheers, Finn, and thank you!

[RingoDeathStarr]

I logged in just to say what followed is perhaps the most level and balanced post I've read in any forum. Cheers, Finn, and thank you!


Absolutely agree with this, thank you Finn.

[Bahra]

Just played an epic game 3 against MUD in which I had to fight through: Ugin, Ratchet Bomb, Platinum Empirion, 4 Wurmcoil Engines, 4 Lodestone Golems and a couple of turns of Trading Post + Spine of Ish Sah and almost decking :laugh:

He ended the game by playing Chalice on 15 and then conceding.

http://i.imgur.com/BLNEu66.jpg

[Finn]

That is epic.

I do not like games like that as much as I bet most do. We have tools, sure. I mean, you apparently got the guy to concede. But nothing does quite what is supposed to. I prefer the minimalist matches when every mana has to be spent properly and big plays are hard to come by.

Thanks for the feedback, fellas. I can be counted on to bore you with history lessons in place of tactical advice.

[lavafrogg]

Eh. I do not have the degree of insider knowledge on this stuff that I used to. I bet there are several posters in this thread who have better insight. I hope they are kind enough to make their thoughts known. That said, I have some generic information that you may find useful.


A long time ago, I complained that the color white did not have a practical finisher. Exalted Angel was the card of choice at the birth of Legacy. But it was only reasonable with sol lands, so not practical. We got Stoneforge Mystic. Not what I thought I was looking for, but D+T used this card for an amazingly long time before any of the Stoneblade decks came about - and it clearly works. Sometime after that I said that what this deck needs is a Glowrider that costs 2. We got it and, well, awesome. As the format has gotten stronger I have been hoping out loud that we would get a card that looks a lot like this:

white's wet dream
creature - thingie
:w:
When ~this~ enters the battlefield, you may discard a creature card. If you do, search your library for a white creature card and put it in your hand. If you don't, sacrifice ~this~.
1/1

Or something like that. It is aggressively priced, but probably not OP because of the strict requirements. We do not have it, but Imperial Recruiter is a sorta facsimile of it. Kinda. I am tickled that Bahra has begun this experiment. I have been wondering about it for quite some time, and never put in the time to find out if it can fly. Thing is though, green has some similar tools in Zenith, Teeg, and company. You could take the deck in that direction also, as many have. In the end you get Maverick. It is a good deck, to be sure. But it does not perform as well as D+T because you both gain and lose when you make the switch. The jury is still out on whether the gain from Imperial is worth the loss.

So I definitely want it to work. But there have been a lot of ideas that have come and gone to this deck. A lot of good ones, in fact. It is just that the bar is very high for Legacy. I am doubtful that the splash is straight-up better. The more likely scenario is that it is markedly improves some while diluting most others. Is that a net gain? I guess that depends on which of those decks have more format presence, which is a big, complicated topic.

I don't feel that the red splash adds anything that the main deck is lacking. Magus of the moon it redundant to what the mono white main board already does, tax opposing mana bases, and sudden demise helps against elves and other creature decks, but white has the best hatebears for combo.

Opening the deck to mana problems ie stifle/port/wasteland on a essentially 3 color manabase(wastes/ports/red and white) is going against one of the main reason death and taxes is so consistent.

The imperial recruiter is super cool and flashy to grab whatever techy card you need at the moment but I am not sure that a 3 cost tutor is what the deck needs to succeed.

The only splash I can see viable is green for gaddock teeg, the best hatebear, to help against control. Which is also protected by karakas and vial at 2.

[Curby]

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.

[lavafrogg]

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.

Teeg is just boss and pridemage helps keep Omnitell down, kills equipment and all of the random enchantments/artifacts you can see in legacy and at worst has exalted.

Salvation also keeps playing with Yidan and Fauna Shaman.... Both seem super slow... Just like recruiter. Side note: neither of them cost 200 dollars...

[Curby]

and Fauna Shaman

I don't think anyone's talked too seriously about that one, TBH. Searching the Legacy thread for "fauna" and "shaman" both yield zero results. I was interested in Yisan's promise, but it does indeed seem too slow. 2 mana more than Stoneforge to cast and activate, and no immediate card replacement.

[Bahra]

I don't feel that the red splash adds anything that the main deck is lacking. Magus of the moon it redundant to what the mono white main board already does, tax opposing mana bases, and sudden demise helps against elves and other creature decks, but white has the best hatebears for combo.

Opening the deck to mana problems ie stifle/port/wasteland on a essentially 3 color manabase(wastes/ports/red and white) is going against one of the main reason death and taxes is so consistent.

The imperial recruiter is super cool and flashy to grab whatever techy card you need at the moment but I am not sure that a 3 cost tutor is what the deck needs to succeed.

The only splash I can see viable is green for gaddock teeg, the best hatebear, to help against control. Which is also protected by karakas and vial at 2.

You are entitled to an opinion but saying that the red splash is not viable is obviously wrong. I have great results with it and turning the elves match up from atrocious to great is really nice. It also turns 12 post and shardless BUG into byes basically. Mono white also doesn't stand a chance against a good UWR stoneblade player, with Wr I've beaten it countless times.

[lavafrogg]

You are entitled to an opinion but saying that the red splash is not viable is obviously wrong. I have great results with it and turning the elves match up from atrocious to great is really nice. It also turns 12 post and shardless BUG into byes basically. Mono white also doesn't stand a chance against a good UWR stoneblade player, with Wr I've beaten it countless times.

I am not saying the list is not viable. I am saying that it is most likely not optimal in most metagames and that, as Finn said, you are sacrificing some matchups for others.

More specifically, elves can play around a sorcery speed sweeper, UWR has bolt to kill magus of the mokn(and also runs blood moon in many cases) and post is also very weak to the death and taxes ganeplan of wasteland/port already.

I do not feel that weakening the manabase, which I hVe always seen as a strength of the deck, for the red splash is not worth it. I do not feel like you gain enough.... Unless your metagames is all post and elves and this fits into your play style.

[Bahra]

I am not saying the list is not viable. I am saying that it is most likely not optimal in most metagames and that, as Finn said, you are sacrificing some matchups for others.

More specifically, elves can play around a sorcery speed sweeper, UWR has bolt to kill magus of the mokn(and also runs blood moon in many cases) and post is also very weak to the death and taxes ganeplan of wasteland/port already.

I do not feel that weakening the manabase, which I hVe always seen as a strength of the deck, for the red splash is not worth it. I do not feel like you gain enough.... Unless your metagames is all post and elves and this fits into your play style.

How does Elves play around a sorcery speed sweeper when it also has to deal with the threat of Jitte and getting killed in the air?

UWR stoneblade has 2 (!!) Bolts. And I have 4 Mother of Runes along with 3 Magus of the Moon. Even when they have basics out, they can't cast Council's Judgement and Supreme Verdict which is the 2 blow out cards they have.

[Barook]

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.
Choke is also an interesting SB card.


I don't think anyone's talked too seriously about that one, TBH. Searching the Legacy thread for "fauna" and "shaman" both yield zero results. I was interested in Yisan's promise, but it does indeed seem too slow. 2 mana more than Stoneforge to cast and activate, and no immediate card replacement.
The :g: activation cost kills it in my opinion. Creatures are easy to splash due to Vial while noncreature cards and creatures with activation costs are much harder to use. At least Choke has so much power that it's worth it - Fauna Shaman, not so much.

[Colin]

Won a local tournament yesterday. only 13 people, but whatever. Most notable, my last match is on camera. Kind of a free role against RUG delver.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7pIXxaL13Y&list=PLibhe7_Kj-1FwDpPmNzKig6ywvFrAcTlp last match in the playlist.

[Curby]

Congrats, nice to see Mono-white continuing to do well. Would you mind posting your creature complement (or full list)?

[Colin]

Congrats, nice to see Mono-white continuing to do well. Would you mind posting your creature complement (or full list)?

Sure, Very straightforward:

4 Mom
4 thalia
4 STM
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
2 brimaz
1 Aven Mindsensor

4 aether vial

1 jitte
1 SOFI
1 Batterskull

4 STP

4 port
4 wasteland
3 karakas
2 flagstones <--Ton's of miracles, and I probably end up having to cast cataclysm every other game.
1 cavern
9 plains

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn
1 Leonin Relic Warder
2 RIP
2 Cataclysm
1 Manriki <-I have tons of Deathblade etc in my area
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 councils judgement
1 pithing needle
2 containment priest
1 grafdiggers cage

[mishima_kazuya]

I took a break from casting Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals in the monthly Philadelphia area tournaments.

About 35 players registered, so 6 rounds of swiss and the winner receives two byes to the Legacy main event at Eternal Weekend. I won last month's tournament with AnT, so I had no plans for winning the tournament.

9 plains
3 karakas
1 flagstones of trokair
1 horizon canopy
1 cavern of souls
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraban
4 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
3 phyrexian revoker
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 ethersworn canonist
2 mirran crusader
4 flickerwisp

sideboard:
2 cataclysm
2 kor firewalker
2 rest in peace
1 grafdigger's cage
1 dismember
1 oblivion ring
1 council's judgment
1 ethersworn canonist
1 manriki-gusari
1 ratchet bomb
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 seal of cleansing

Round 1: UR Delver. Won 2-0.
I remember that my opponent was fond of casting Lightning Bolts and Goblin Guides in various formats. Unfortunately he kept a hand of Spell Pierces, Dazes and the assorted blue things that were not cantrips.

Round 2: UWr Miracles. Lost 0-2
Got paired against a friend that was not sure what I was playing, however that did not matter. I mulliganed both games, and my opponent buried me under removal spells and card advantage from draw spells.

Round 3: BURG Delver. Won 2-0.
Unlike my last Delver opponent, these games started out close. However I saved my removal spells for Delver and bricked his ground attackers with Mother of Runes and/or Thalia+Karakas.

Round 4: OmniTell Won 2-1
Drew running hate bears to end game 1 with a Thalia, Canonist and Spirit of the Labyrinth in play.
My opponent kept a 1 lander game 2 after I mulliganed on my end. My mulligan slowed me down long enough for my opponent to assemble his combo while I was stuck on two lands, however he had to Cunning Wish for Stifle to get around my Oblivion Ring trigger. It turned out his hand was full of removal in the form of Pyroclasm, Snuff Out and Engineered Explosives, which bought him enough Draw Steps to flip a Brainstorm into Dig Through Time into the win.
I had Thalia on the play for game 3, while my opponent forgot about the Karakas in play as he activated Engineered Explosives. That misplay along with me having Oblivion Ring again for his Show and Tell gave me enough time to close the game. I gave my opponent an extra out, by casting Phyrexian Revoker instead of Serra Avenger into a potential Pyroclasm, but luckily I did not get punished. :tongue:

Round 5: MUD. Won 2-0
My opponent admitted that he sequenced his plays poorly and mana screwed himself both games. I also did a dumb thing in the form of using a Flickerwisp to flicker his Cloudpost when he had City of Traitors in play, which of course did not work how I wanted it to. It was sloppy win, but a win is a win.

Round 6: ID

Quarterfinals: Omnitell. Concede
I already had two byes for Eternal Weekend and top 8 agreed to split the store credit prize. So I conceded and wished my opponent the best of luck as I went to pick up some sweet Cube foils.

[Bahra]

I took a break from casting Dark Rituals and Cabal Rituals in the monthly Philadelphia area tournaments.

About 35 players registered, so 6 rounds of swiss and the winner receives two byes to the Legacy main event at Eternal Weekend. I won last month's tournament with AnT, so I had no plans for winning the tournament.

9 plains
3 karakas
1 flagstones of trokair
1 horizon canopy
1 cavern of souls
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice
4 mother of runes
4 thalia, guardian of thraban
4 stoneforge mystic
3 serra avenger
3 phyrexian revoker
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 ethersworn canonist
2 mirran crusader
4 flickerwisp

sideboard:
2 cataclysm
2 kor firewalker
2 rest in peace
1 grafdigger's cage
1 dismember
1 oblivion ring
1 council's judgment
1 ethersworn canonist
1 manriki-gusari
1 ratchet bomb
1 spirit of the labyrinth
1 seal of cleansing

Round 1: UR Delver. Won 2-0.
I remember that my opponent was fond of casting Lightning Bolts and Goblin Guides in various formats. Unfortunately he kept a hand of Spell Pierces, Dazes and the assorted blue things that were not cantrips.

Round 2: UWr Miracles. Lost 0-2
Got paired against a friend that was not sure what I was playing, however that did not matter. I mulliganed both games, and my opponent buried me under removal spells and card advantage from draw spells.

Round 3: BURG Delver. Won 2-0.
Unlike my last Delver opponent, these games started out close. However I saved my removal spells for Delver and bricked his ground attackers with Mother of Runes and/or Thalia+Karakas.

Round 4: OmniTell Won 2-1
Drew running hate bears to end game 1 with a Thalia, Canonist and Spirit of the Labyrinth in play.
My opponent kept a 1 lander game 2 after I mulliganed on my end. My mulligan slowed me down long enough for my opponent to assemble his combo while I was stuck on two lands, however he had to Cunning Wish for Stifle to get around my Oblivion Ring trigger. It turned out his hand was full of removal in the form of Pyroclasm, Snuff Out and Engineered Explosives, which bought him enough Draw Steps to flip a Brainstorm into Dig Through Time into the win.
I had Thalia on the play for game 3, while my opponent forgot about the Karakas in play as he activated Engineered Explosives. That misplay along with me having Oblivion Ring again for his Show and Tell gave me enough time to close the game. I gave my opponent an extra out, by casting Phyrexian Revoker instead of Serra Avenger into a potential Pyroclasm, but luckily I did not get punished. :tongue:

Round 5: MUD. Won 2-0
My opponent admitted that he sequenced his plays poorly and mana screwed himself both games. I also did a dumb thing in the form of using a Flickerwisp to flicker his Cloudpost when he had City of Traitors in play, which of course did not work how I wanted it to. It was sloppy win, but a win is a win.

Round 6: ID

Quarterfinals: Omnitell. Concede
I already had two byes for Eternal Weekend and top 8 agreed to split the store credit prize. So I conceded and wished my opponent the best of luck as I went to pick up some sweet Cube foils.

Could you explain the sideboard especially?

I find the Dismember and Seal of Cleansing a bit odd over cards like Path to Exile and Disenchant.

[mishima_kazuya]

Could you explain the sideboard especially?

I find the Dismember and Seal of Cleansing a bit odd over cards like Path to Exile and Disenchant.

Dismember was originally a Sunlance, but I decided to mix things up a bit to have more outs to x/5s. I figured the Seal of Cleansing played better with Rishadan Port in theory, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[Barook]

So, back on topic, if the Gideon spoiler I've just seen is legit, he might actually fight for a spot in Death and Taxes. Apologies if the images are huge; they're the only ones I've seen so far.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHqOuzyUEAEPOfW.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHqOu1BUEAE5-WP.jpg
Thoughts about the new Gideon?

It's cheap, but the flipped mode seems unimpressive.

[Brentane]

Thoughts about the new Gideon?

It's cheap, but the flipped mode seems unimpressive.

As much as I would love to use the new Gideon, we have to think, when will his abilities be relevant? His first one. He is probably gonna be hit by Delver of Secrets or Tarmogoyf or something else that is big right? But then again, you can force a Dark Confidant to attack and block with Thalia. His second ability helps keep our Stoneforge Mystic on the battlefield or any other crucial hatebear till your next turn. His Ultimate just allows him to become our Tarmogoyf. Now all his abilities are OK, but flipping him is the hard part. When are we attacking with more than 1-2 creatures? Usually on the final swing for life right? That's the big downside I see to him.

EDIT: Forgot to add that Karakas with him is hilarious.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.
Just want to say, the water's nice over there regarding the green splash. I had called for Teeg after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time came out, and I think we can safely say DtT has staying power after TC's ban. That kind of advantage is what you get blown out by, or lose a game you had within grasp, something the Wg build aims to stop.


I think it's better than mono white in general. But it's slightly worse against delver and significantly worse in the mirror ... Mono white also doesn't stand a chance against a good UWR stoneblade player, with Wr I've beaten it countless times.
This is pretty much my assessment too, inserting "Wg" in place of "Wr". Stoneblade folds to Moon effects, and I'm taking them on with Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Sylvan Library and Choke. Stoneblade will just beat mono-DnT now more often than not with True-Name Nemesis and Dig Through Time to contend with; one of those cards may be fine for mono, but both is just trouble.

So we're approaching it with the opposite opponents of blue: red and green. I think it's safe to say black and blue are inferior choices for a splash far as the weaknesses of mono and what a splash color intends to correct.

Btw Wg is nasty good against the mirror. Recruiter and Moon, I can see why they don't jive as much when someone is playing mono-white tempo back at you, but while Teeg is dead in the mirror, Pridemage and Sylvan are usually game deciders. I can tell you with many games of Wg under my belt now that the only real weakness for Wg is hardcore BUG control with maindeck Toxic Deluge, which mono would lose to as well. I assume Wr has some fun here with the Moon effects.

Mono, I fear, lacks oomph against Stoneblade, OmniTell, and to a lesser extent, Miracles, which are all big deals now. Elves is less popular, but green takes the cake there (red also does quite well I'm sure). Green definitely pads the % points against other combo that mono-DnT isn't necessarily lacking against like Dredge, Sneak Show, and ANT, but better is better. I'm more than willing to concede a few % points to one of the best matchups in RUG Delver for all those other advantages.

[Bahra]

Just want to say, the water's nice over there regarding the green splash. I had called for Teeg after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time came out, and I think we can safely say DtT has staying power after TC's ban. That kind of advantage is what you get blown out by, or lose a game you had within grasp, something the Wg build aims to stop.


This is pretty much my assessment too, inserting "Wg" in place of "Wr". Stoneblade folds to Moon effects, and I'm taking them on with Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Sylvan Library and Choke. Stoneblade will just beat mono-DnT now more often than not with True-Name Nemesis and Dig Through Time to contend with; one of those cards may be fine for mono, but both is just trouble.

So we're approaching it with the opposite opponents of blue: red and green. I think it's safe to say black and blue are inferior choices for a splash far as the weaknesses of mono and what a splash color intends to correct.

Btw Wg is nasty good against the mirror. Recruiter and Moon, I can see why they don't jive as much when someone is playing mono-white tempo back at you, but while Teeg is dead in the mirror, Pridemage and Sylvan are usually game deciders. I can tell you with many games of Wg under my belt now that the only real weakness for Wg is hardcore BUG control with maindeck Toxic Deluge, which mono would lose to as well. I assume Wr has some fun here with the Moon effects.

Mono, I fear, lacks oomph against Stoneblade, OmniTell, and to a lesser extent, Miracles, which are all big deals now. Elves is less popular, but green takes the cake there (red also does quite well I'm sure). Green definitely pads the % points against other combo that mono-DnT isn't necessarily lacking against like Dredge, Sneak Show, and ANT, but better is better. I'm more than willing to concede a few % points to one of the best matchups in RUG Delver for all those other advantages.

Did the Wg list win anything? I mean, is there a solid list? I want to try it out in a daily.

[Barook]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter* :1::w:
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

[Tylert]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter* :1::w:
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

you already know the answer :) SMF is better because it does not require Vial and mother of runes to be sure to get card advantage. Also, it can put the equipement into play, avoiding counterspells.
I like the card, but not for D&T (nor legacy in general).
And do we really want 6 stoneforge mystic in the deck?

[Mackan]

Just some thoughts regarding the green splash...

If you are to play green to have access to Gaddock to beat decks with DTT I have some cards which you could also consider.

1) Winter Orb. In a low-curved deck with Aether Vial this is an awesome tool to take advantage of ppl running tops and cantrips to filter their draws.
2) Carpet of flowers. In combination with the above to more or less get a one-sided effect out of the orb.
3) Sword of feast and famine. Maybe this is win-more but the untap-effect is actually pretty good if you can't use your mana otherwise.

Thoughts?

[Finn]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter* :1::w:
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.
I have a thought on Relic Hunter. I think we can all agree that it is not as good at fetching equipment as Mystic. I think that this is a different card though. It hits once and then it is a 3/3 - one of the bigger dudes in the deck. The opponent has to block it. D+T does not have much in that realm at the moment. Mom can of course help out plenty by deploying the equipment he fetches. I think this guy works along side Mystic too.

I think the card is not as powerful as Mystic. It's just that D+T has the foundation to make him work well.

[Curby]

Just some thoughts regarding the green splash...

If you are to play green to have access to Gaddock to beat decks with DTT I have some cards which you could also consider.

1) Winter Orb. In a low-curved deck with Aether Vial this is an awesome tool to take advantage of ppl running tops and cantrips to filter their draws.
2) Carpet of flowers. In combination with the above to more or less get a one-sided effect out of the orb.
3) Sword of feast and famine. Maybe this is win-more but the untap-effect is actually pretty good if you can't use your mana otherwise.

Thoughts?

My sig. Where do you find the room? Splash lists are really tight, and we're already cutting staples like beef (Brimaz/Crusader/Avenger) and tricks (Flickerwisp/Mangara/Revoker) to fit the off-color cards. More specifically:

Worb effectively invalidates Port, a key part of our tax strategy.

Carpet of Flowers could only be in the side due to matchup requirements. I'd rather run Choke, and my sig prevents us from running both.

[Barook]

I have a thought on Relic Hunter. I think we can all agree that it is not as good at fetching equipment as Mystic. I think that this is a different card though. It hits once and then it is a 3/3 - one of the bigger dudes in the deck. The opponent has to block it. D+T does not have much in that realm at the moment. Mom can of course help out plenty by deploying the equipment he fetches. I think this guy works along side Mystic too.

I think the card is not as powerful as Mystic. It's just that D+T has the foundation to make him work well.
Assuming we play it on T2, we can clear the way with a StP on T3 and then play the fetched Jitte, or clear the way with a Flickerwisp. Both aren't unrealistic scenarios.

It might have potential in the MonoW list, but I would wait for testing results first since it doesn't make sense to look at it in a vacuum. For Imperial Taxes, Recruiter should be better as CA engine since it can also grab SFM.

[dcosiem]

I haven't been on the forums in a long time. I hear some chit chat about splashing colors. If people really want to splash colors in this deck try making a new threat and leave the talk out cause its pointless to talk about it here. On second note, congrats to Evan Smith on the 2nd place finish in Indy. I really love his deck. It's almost similar to mine but mine is probably better. I would definitely run Absolute Law over Circle Protection from Red because Circle of Protection from Red doesn't guarantee you a win. I've lost against burn with it on the field because simply he had more spells to play and it constricted me of resources to play my own spells. Dnt is such a limited mana source deck. I may want to run 24 lands some time. Aven Mindscensor so good right now. I can see the Armageddon for Lands but I rather run the 2 of Cataclysm and a playset of Flagstone in the main to thin out my deck on draws instead. But, I suppose it Armageddon works. Good job though. Has anyone thought of running Cursed Totem in the side against Elves? That's what I'm doing.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Did the Wg list win anything? I mean, is there a solid list? I want to try it out in a daily.
Unfortunately for everyone in the Southwest, SCG has abandoned the Legacy scene here, so what we get are smaller tourneys, though I will be taking Wg to GP Seattle. In the meantime, I took 2nd of 37 at a SCG IQ in March with a less refined version of the deck here (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16392&iddeck=122571).

Last week I placed 8th with a way better build at a 42 man tourney at Knight-Ware. Results from those usually get posted to The Council and MTGTop8.com, but this one hasn't yet, so here's the list (http://www.knight-ware.com/ccg/magic/tourney/06_14_2015legacy.html#GarretRoosa) directly from the store site.

The second list is much much better than the first. I was knocked out of the playoffs by Merfolk, which is somehow like my one nemesis deck even though most other DnT players agree it's pretty even matched to favored. I just always get hit with 2-3 TNNs per game, just my luck.

[Bahra]

I just swapped the plateaus for savannahs and the magus of the moon with Qasali Pridemage, the Imperial Recruiters with Gaddock Teeg, the Sudden Demise with Chokes and the Leonin Relic-Warder with Sylvan Libary.

I 3-1'd the daily losing to Omniscience in 3 games where I feel like I got pretty lucky throughout the match and I still lost. Beat Esper Deathblade, ANT and Manaless dredge.

Even though I've only played 4 matches the deck seems powerful, I am just worried that it doesn't fix the match ups I was trying to fix with the red splash, namely infect and Elves.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

I just swapped the plateaus for savannahs and the magus of the moon with Qasali Pridemage, the Imperial Recruiters with Gaddock Teeg, the Sudden Demise with Chokes and the Leonin Relic-Warder with Sylvan Libary.

I 3-1'd the daily losing to Omniscience in 3 games where I feel like I got pretty lucky throughout the match and I still lost. Beat Esper Deathblade, ANT and Manaless dredge.

Even though I've only played 4 matches the deck seems powerful, I am just worried that it doesn't fix the match ups I was trying to fix with the red splash, namely infect and Elves.
I mostly have a field day with Elves now. Short of the Turn 2 Heritage Druid Glimpse win, Teeg+Priest and Canonist+Spirit are slowing them down mightily.

I'm sure Sudden Demise is great vs. Infect, which can be tricky but is not a "problem" matchup for even mono-DnT imo. Pridemage kills Inkmoth Nexus, remember, and we can block Glistener Elf. Just leaves dealing with Blighted Agent.

[Stevestamopz]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter* :1::w:
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

Obviously it's not close to SFM (it's pretty much Dark Confidant vs Pain Seer) but being a human is pretty nice.
Something to test, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for this one.

[Bahra]

I mostly have a field day with Elves now. Short of the Turn 2 Heritage Druid Glimpse win, Teeg+Priest and Canonist+Spirit are slowing them down mightily.

I'm sure Sudden Demise is great vs. Infect, which can be tricky but is not a "problem" matchup for even mono-DnT imo. Pridemage kills Inkmoth Nexus, remember, and we can block Glistener Elf. Just leaves dealing with Blighted Agent.

Actually Infect is a problem match up for mono white. We're too slow and they have enough tricks that we're often dead to either of their threats. I'm not gonna go into a deep discussion about why infect is a bad match up for mono white. But if you're not having problems with infect I assure you it's because the infect players you are facing are bad. Simple as that.

[frenadol]

I just swapped the plateaus for savannahs and the magus of the moon with Qasali Pridemage, the Imperial Recruiters with Gaddock Teeg, the Sudden Demise with Chokes and the Leonin Relic-Warder with Sylvan Libary.

I 3-1'd the daily losing to Omniscience in 3 games where I feel like I got pretty lucky throughout the match and I still lost. Beat Esper Deathblade, ANT and Manaless dredge.

Even though I've only played 4 matches the deck seems powerful, I am just worried that it doesn't fix the match ups I was trying to fix with the red splash, namely infect and Elves.

I've been playing the green splash for a while, with a couple tweaks and stuff. The green version is significantly better against decks like Patriot, Esper, RUG, Miracles, etc, blue based decks that rely on board pressure or control. It enhances your even or slightly favorable matchups while not really sacrificing any matchup other than maybe Burn. GW also destroys the mirror because you have access to maindeck artifact removal and heavier hitting creatures, while AFAIK the red version is weaker. With GW I recommend you go 4 Serra Avenger and cut the number of Flickerwisp since you rely more on a stable clock and not soft locks. I also cut the Revokers altogether and replaced them with 4 Pridemage (keeping a sideboard Needle), and it has served me well, you may try it and see if you like it that way. Exalted is a really good mechanic in this deck and the cats are much more resilient, plus still very useful against Delver decks. Pridemage also can destroy Omniscience, where Revoker would just sit there doing nothing because the time for Sneak Show has passed. BUG in particular brings in a ton of artifacts post board, like Needle and Null Rod. Library is also maindeckable as a one-of, and I'm always happy to see it.

I think we don't see many people taking Wg to tournaments because of a feedback loop of "Wg doesn't have tournament results so I don't want to risk it in a real tournament so I'll just bring monowhite" but I'm pretty sure in the current meta Wg is truly much more powerful than monowhite. Unless you lose your first two rounds and get in the loser bracket elohell of $100 burn decks and that guy who still plays Oops, all spells.

If cheese is your thing (I do certainly like it!) green also has Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. It autowins you the game if he survives for more than a turn, which is pretty doable if you have a Mom in play. He's also legendary and at 2G very easy to cast and pretty hard to kill at 2/3. I also did a pretty detailed explanation of the diverse stuff you can do with the Wg version of DnT over at MTGS a while ago, including Yisan shenanigans. If you want decklists, of whatever type, I believe I can at least point you in the right direction.

[Bahra]

I've been playing the green splash for a while, with a couple tweaks and stuff. The green version is significantly better against decks like Patriot, Esper, RUG, Miracles, etc, blue based decks that rely on board pressure or control. It enhances your even or slightly favorable matchups while not really sacrificing any matchup other than maybe Burn. GW also destroys the mirror because you have access to maindeck artifact removal and heavier hitting creatures, while AFAIK the red version is weaker. With GW I recommend you go 4 Serra Avenger and cut the number of Flickerwisp since you rely more on a stable clock and not soft locks. I also cut the Revokers altogether and replaced them with 4 Pridemage (keeping a sideboard Needle), and it has served me well, you may try it and see if you like it that way. Exalted is a really good mechanic in this deck and the cats are much more resilient, plus still very useful against Delver decks. Pridemage also can destroy Omniscience, where Revoker would just sit there doing nothing because the time for Sneak Show has passed. BUG in particular brings in a ton of artifacts post board, like Needle and Null Rod. Library is also maindeckable as a one-of, and I'm always happy to see it.

I think we don't see many people taking Wg to tournaments because of a feedback loop of "Wg doesn't have tournament results so I don't want to risk it in a real tournament so I'll just bring monowhite" but I'm pretty sure in the current meta Wg is truly much more powerful than monowhite. Unless you lose your first two rounds and get in the loser bracket elohell of $100 burn decks and that guy who still plays Oops, all spells.

If cheese is your thing (I do certainly like it!) green also has Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. It autowins you the game if he survives for more than a turn, which is pretty doable if you have a Mom in play. He's also legendary and at 2G very easy to cast and pretty hard to kill at 2/3. I also did a pretty detailed explanation of the diverse stuff you can do with the Wg version of DnT over at MTGS a while ago, including Yisan shenanigans. If you want decklists, of whatever type, I believe I can at least point you in the right direction.

I don't like cutting the Revokers, they still do a lot against a lot of decks, and they are awesome in the mirror. 4x Pridemage seems like a lot. I played the legacy event on Sunday at GP Copenhagen and there was a ton of elves, and if that's in anyway indicative of the GP Lille meta, then I want to play the red splash. I agree that Wg is better than mono white, and I will add that I also believe that Wr is better than mono white. So I'm definitely playing a splash at GP Lille and almost certainly Wr since I believe in making most match ups even if not favoured, rather than play blow out match ups every round.

[MGB]

If you're playing the green splash, could you just go ahead and play some Collected Company perhaps?

[Curby]

If you're playing the green splash, could you just go ahead and play some Collected Company perhaps?

Costs 5 with Thalia, unplayable with Teeg. Sylvan Library is a much better card advantage engine for the deck.

[haymaker18]

I don't like cutting the Revokers, they still do a lot against a lot of decks, and they are awesome in the mirror. 4x Pridemage seems like a lot. I played the legacy event on Sunday at GP Copenhagen and there was a ton of elves, and if that's in anyway indicative of the GP Lille meta, then I want to play the red splash. I agree that Wg is better than mono white, and I will add that I also believe that Wr is better than mono white. So I'm definitely playing a splash at GP Lille and almost certainly Wr since I believe in making most match ups even if not favoured, rather than play blow out match ups every round.
Is there any way to keep the red splash but add 1-2 Teeg in the 75 (possibly a Pridemage)? Maybe 1 Savannah (main or board)? Can search for both creatures with Recruiter and you have Vial to put into play if finding green mana is hard. Maybe an extra green mana in board and a Sylvan Library. Don't think you really need Choke, but you could play 1 in board. There are matchups where you can't get Magus out of your deck and into your board quickly enough. Bringing Teeg in seems like it may help in some of those matchups.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

[Nihils]

Is there any way to keep the red splash but add 1-2 Teeg in the 75 (possibly a Pridemage)? Maybe 1 Savannah (main or board)? Can search for both creatures with Recruiter and you have Vial to put into play if finding green mana is hard. Maybe an extra green mana in board and a Sylvan Library. Don't think you really need Choke, but you could play 1 in board. There are matchups where you can't get Magus out of your deck and into your board quickly enough. Bringing Teeg in seems like it may help in some of those matchups.

Sent from my SM-N910P using Tapatalk

Not a great interaction, but it is notable that Imperial Recruiter and Teeg are both Advisors for Cavern.

[Curby]

Amoebasinger over on MTGS was championing a very light splash, using Canopy, Vial, and Cavern for casting green creatures while maintaining the traditional, stronger mono-white manabase with around 10 basic plains (8-11 in most mono-white builds).

As we add colors, it's important to keep in mind that consistency is itself a form of power, and increasing the power level of spells and creatures at the expense of consistency is not necessarily a net improvement. Consistency provides two unmentioned reasons why mono-white builds continue to do well in capable hands: (1) a deck that loses to its own inconsistency seldom does well, and (2) a pilot's depth of knowledge and experience with an older build can account for some lack of relative power compared to a newer build. Both of those factors compound their effects as the size/length of a tournament grows, hopefully for obvious reasons.

[Barook]

I tried out the tri-color manabase a while ago with the same thought. It was terrible and not something I would try to pursue.

[Bosque]

The 2 color manabases are funky enough with our need to maintain 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Port, I think adding a 3rd color would be rough and not worth the trouble.

I think it would be better to decide if a splash is worth it for your metagame, then figuring which one rather than considering multiple splash colors at once. There's good tools to be had in other colors, but the question is which holes does it fill that mono white struggles with, and what does it weaken us against in return?

[Barook]

As for splashes, can we talk about what blue brings to the table, too?

I initially threated it as a joke after somebody on MTGSalvation made a list with Clique and TNN since :u::u: is horrible, but then it dawned to me: Since most splash builds do (or should) run 7 fetches, why not add Brainstorm? Thalia alone isn't reason enough to not play one of the most broken cards in the format - and we are in dire need of cards that improve our consistency.

I still think that the :u::u: are too much to handle for the mana base. Invisible Stalker seems meh since it's only good with equipment, but Looter il-Kor might interesting by providing an evasive body + additional card filtering (which we currently lack). Getting rid of excess legends, Vials, lands, etc. with both Looter and Brainstorm feels pretty good so far. Brainstorm + Vial also have a nice synergy going.

Sideboard options might include Meddling Mage, Flusterstorm, Swan Song, but what else?

Edit: Geist might also be a thing in the beater slot, but those are premium as it stands.

[Bragi]

As for splashes, can we talk about what blue brings to the table, too?

I initially threated it as a joke after somebody on MTGSalvation made a list with Clique and TNN since :u::u: is horrible, but then it dawned to me: Since most splash builds do (or should) run 7 fetches, why not add Brainstorm? Thalia alone isn't reason enough to not play one of the most broken cards in the format - and we are in dire need of cards that improve our consistency.

I still think that the :u::u: are too much to handle for the mana base. Invisible Stalker seems meh since it's only good with equipment, but Looter il-Kor might interesting by providing an evasive body + additional card filtering (which we currently lack). Getting rid of excess legends, Vials, lands, etc. with both Looter and Brainstorm feels pretty good so far. Brainstorm + Vial also have a nice synergy going.

Sideboard options might include Meddling Mage, Flusterstorm, Swan Song, but what else?

That's a great idea, man!

Why don't we also add a playset of Ponder? And while we are at it, Dig Through Time and Jace, the Mind Sculptor? And Snapcaster Mage! We could also splash red for Lightning Bolt then! Or Counterbalance?

We're onto something, I smell it!

[Barook]

That's a great idea, man!

Why don't we also add a playset of Ponder? And while we are at it, Dig Through Time and Jace, the Mind Sculptor? And Snapcaster Mage! We could also splash red for Lightning Bolt then! Or Counterbalance?

We're onto something, I smell it!
Keep your sarcasm for yourself if you can't contribute anything productive.

If we're exploring the two-color options, we should at least be open for all options until it's proven by playtesting that they aren't good.

And that's coming from somebody who hates Brainstorm for what it does to the format.

[Finn]

Whoa, hold on. Somebody read Kirby's signature out loud and take a breath or something.

Barook, I remember the tri-color bit from a few months back. I recall not really understanding why it went poorly though. Did you try to keep the Ports? I think they have to go. With so many creatures made available to the deck in three colors, I have to wonder if the deck should not start with Recruiters. That way you can have a little of everything with common overlaps. I am not even going to post a 60-card attempt. The task is truly monumental to figure out exactly which cards to run in which quantities. And it really is a different deck that smells a lot like a Zoo.

I'm fairly certain that the blue splash is destined for failure. Thalia is the best card in the deck and it pulls you in a diametrically opposed direction. I have tried this one. Every strong blue spell you add takes away from Thalia. Clique is very attractive, and doable. But due to the mana base, you will have trouble keeping it and Flickerwisp in the same deck, especially with Karakas, to say nothing of Port or Wasteland. And you have to use Karakas with Clique. Cut Wisps? Eh. Is Clique really worth that? No. It is a solution without a problem.

By contrast, Teeg and Sudden Demise are solutions to specific problems. That is why the tri-color is so interesting to me at least.

Great ideas. Please report results so that we can discuss it with hard facts. The conversation between Bahra and SwordstoTimeshares taught us these sorts of details. But most of this other stuff has been tried, and the devil is definitely in the details.

[iatee]

I've been playing with the red splash (2 recruiters, 2 maguses) for some time now and finding it very strong. One nice thing about the red splash is that as long as you fetch a basic plains you're not open to blood moon effects yourself (even had the rare case where someone's blood moon allowed me to cast a red spell).

Cavern is on 'human' so much that sometimes it feels like you're playing legacy-humans. I wonder if there's room to go in that direction, w/ upping the multi-colored humans and caverns. Orzhov pontiff, for example, is a tutorable human that could solve the TNN problem (less of an issue lately).

It is quite unfortunate that the green-splash cards aren't human.

[Barook]

Whoa, hold on. Somebody read Kirby's signature out loud and take a breath or something.

Barook, I remember the tri-color bit from a few months back. I recall not really understanding why it went poorly though. Did you try to keep the Ports? I think they have to go. With so many creatures made available to the deck in three colors, I have to wonder if the deck should not start with Recruiters. That way you can have a little of everything with common overlaps. I am not even going to post a 60-card attempt. The task is truly monumental to figure out exactly which cards to run in which quantities. And it really is a different deck that smells a lot like a Zoo.

I'm fairly certain that the blue splash is destined for failure. Thalia is the best card in the deck and it pulls you in a diametrically opposed direction. I have tried this one. Every strong blue spell you add takes away from Thalia. Clique is very attractive, and doable. But due to the mana base, you will have trouble keeping it and Flickerwisp in the same deck, especially with Karakas, to say nothing of Port or Wasteland. And you have to use Karakas with Clique. Cut Wisps? Eh. Is Clique really worth that? No. It is a solution without a problem.

By contrast, Teeg and Sudden Demise are solutions to specific problems. That is why the tri-color is so interesting to me at least.

Great ideas. Please report results so that we can discuss it with hard facts. The conversation between Bahra and SwordstoTimeshares taught us these sorts of details. But most of this other stuff has been tried, and the devil is definitely in the details.
If you're not running Port, you're not playing D&T. Simple as that, as they're integral to our mana denial strategy.

About the blue splash: I think you're tackling the splash completely the wrong way, which in turn will make it a failure. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. First off, if you want to keep the Ports (as you should), then Clique's double blue requirement becomes the very opposite of doable. Karakas + Clique is cute, I don't feel like it's worth of opportunity cost, especially when you combine it with your suggestion of cutting Flickerwisps, one of the most powerful cards of the deck.

What I'm trying to do here increasing the consistency of deck (which does plague the deck to a certain degree) while staying true to its strategy instead of completely altering it for an arguably weaker plan. Brainstorm costing :1::u: at times is hardly an issue. What I'm interested in are SB cards that can improve our otherwise terrible match-ups. That's where the splashes will truly shine or fall.

[deucegg]

been playing the green splash for a while, heres my List:

4x mother of runes
4x thalia
4x stoneforge mystic
4x flickerwisp
3x serra avenger
3x phyrexian revoker
1x mirran crusader
1x gaddock teeg
1x ethersworn canonist
1x qasali pridemage

4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x batterskull
1x jitte
1x sword of fire and ice

4x wasteland
4x rishadan port
3x karakas
1x cavern of souls
2x horizon canopy
3x savannah
6x plains

Sb:
2x canonist
1x gaddock
1x containment priest
1x spirit of the lab
2x councils judgment
1x gut shot
1x rip
1x cage
1x relic of progenitus
1x absoute law
1x choke
1x sylvan library
1x pithing needle

Not sure about the manabase. I tried running fetchlands, but I just felt it was bad. I dont want to decrease the amount of 'real' lands. We need those to maintain the denial provided by rishadan port (4 lands in addition to 4 ports) while still keeping mana open for sfm/equipping/spells or whatever. Despite that I still feel that the manabase is debatable. Fetchlands provide 'Safety' vs wasteland by fetching up basic plains, while running savannahs/ canopies kind of expose us to potentially getting screwed over. But I feel we're the stronger 'manadenial' deck anyway (4 thalia port waste), so getting a savannah wastelanded might as well keep us a port alive, which might be good for us. Dont see too many bloodmoons or b2bs anyway. Feel free to criticize me if im talking bullshit!
One canonist main helps a lot g1 vs omnitell and elves while also being usefull vs many other lists (snapcaster/Mentor/yp). I feel like im sacrificing some consistency in good, fair matchups in order to get some advantage or even surprise factor in definitely bad matchups (g1!). One might argue gaddock teeg would do better here as he shuts down natural order/dig while also being usefull vs almost every other deck (even if its just a fow hes preventing); I however feel like canonist is better vs omnitell as she at least slows it down most of the time. Sure, teeg stops dtt from being cast, but doesnt help against st- omni- wish- eladamris call - emi, while canonist at least buys us a turn. It also shuts down Snapcaster mage! Summed up its basically nothing but a preference.
Ive been switching pridemage and library back and forth, not sure about that either.
Too tired to check my post or comment on my board, but nothing too unusual there anyway. Might add some comments tomorrow. Good Night!

[frenadol]

If you're not running Port, you're not playing D&T. Simple as that, as they're integral to our mana denial strategy.

About the blue splash: I think you're tackling the splash completely the wrong way, which in turn will make it a failure. It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. First off, if you want to keep the Ports (as you should), then Clique's double blue requirement becomes the very opposite of doable. Karakas + Clique is cute, I don't feel like it's worth of opportunity cost, especially when you combine it with your suggestion of cutting Flickerwisps, one of the most powerful cards of the deck.

What I'm trying to do here increasing the consistency of deck (which does plague the deck to a certain degree) while staying true to its strategy instead of completely altering it for an arguably weaker plan. Brainstorm costing :1::u: at times is hardly an issue. What I'm interested in are SB cards that can improve our otherwise terrible match-ups. That's where the splashes will truly shine or fall.

Please forgive me for saying it, but I think you just have a preconceived idea of something and you're basically telling people how they should play their decks. Like if you're not playing this or not doing this you're wrong and that's the end of the discussion, without even trying them beforehand and having a good grasp of why would other people do it in the first place. I personally simply don't give any opinions of stuff I haven't played, like Imperial Taxes, it may be a good deck or it may be bad but as long as I still haven't played that deck I'm not qualified to give any opinions about it.

And what is Death and Taxes anyways? It was a control deck that exploited the Mangara combo. By that definition none of the current decks we are discussing nowadays qualify as Death and Taxes. Yet nobody is throwing a fit over it. Legacy is a very fluid environment with a lot of card choices and ways to build a deck, there's a spectrum of choices you can make and not predetermined "slots" you must fill in to get a deck that works. Take Patriot for example. Is there an "official" definition of what cards make Patriot and what don't? Of course not, you pick cards that work well together, sleeve the 75 and play. It may work or it may not, but it's still a legal Legacy deck however you may call it.

What I mean by all of this is that the so called "blue splash" wasn't even meant as a mere splash (at least by me, which is the MTGS post you're probably referring to in an earlier post), it's just another deck, you may call whatever you want and I don't presume of calling it Death and Taxes either, that's left to each individual's choice. I just posted it because it was a Legacy deck that I felt worked well and it shared a lot of mechanics and interactions with "normal" Death and Taxes so it thought was worth sharing with the community. I didn't even post it here but on the Noble Fish thread over at Development so I don't see why it should deserve such dismissive comments in this thread.

Brainstorm is certainly a viable card choice, and I agree that it increases the consistency of the deck, I tried many builds that included it in the past, and what I saw is that Brainstorm in a vacuum, even with shufflers, doesn't provide too much of an advantage. Other blue decks use Brainstorm as a way to fill up the graveyard to power up stuff like DTT, Young Pyro/Mentor, Miracles and Snappers, or to fish for 1-ofs. Those aren't viable strategies for this particular deck IMO so it would just be a cantrip with some upside if you have a shuffler in hand. You would be sacrificing Vial effectiveness by doing that, because of the lowered density of creatures in the deck (you could cut down to 21-22 lands in a Port-less build but with Port like you're proposing I don't think less than 23 is too advisable). Is it worth it? Might be, I haven't played UW Fish decks with Brainstorm in a while so I might try it in the next few days. But my experience tells me that I don't really care if I draw beef or land in much of the early and midgame since everything can be put to use, unlike most of the other low threat density blue decks that rely on goldfishing for specific cards to further their gameplan.

That's why we don't usually see Brainstorm in Merfolk either (and they don't even run Thalia), even though it's a powerful card that's always useful, there's simply not much of a specific need for it. In this kind of decks beef is beef and land is land (aside from the occasional 3rd Vial that clogs your hand). You're drawing 3 cards that might be beef or land and shuffling away other beef and land. There are no specific cards you must need to win and no cards are completely useless in any scenario. You have multiple copies of the same legend in hand? Play more aggresively with it, see if you can bait a removal from the opponent. I personally don't see that scenario where legends are so redundant that costs me the game an enough common one to warrant having dedicated tools to deal with it. But yeah, I will still test it and see if it works in the end. It does provide more sideboard flexibility so I give you that.

[Bahra]

Please forgive me for saying it, but I think you just have a preconceived idea of something and you're basically telling people how they should play their decks. Like if you're not playing this or not doing this you're wrong and that's the end of the discussion, without even trying them beforehand and having a good grasp of why would other people do it in the first place. I personally simply don't give any opinions of stuff I haven't played, like Imperial Taxes, it may be a good deck or it may be bad but as long as I still haven't played that deck I'm not qualified to give any opinions about it.


Well I think you're wrong in that. And let me tell you why.

First of all Barook is just saying that a fundamental strategy of D&T is mana denial and by not playing rishadan port you're basically giving up on that entirely. Rishadan Port is arguably the most powerful form of mana denial we have access to, because it even locks down basic lands and helps vs. creature strategies. If you're not playing a mana denial plan, you're not playing D&T.

Second of all, you certainly can give your opinion of something you haven't played before. It's called theorizing, and it is well and alive in MTG discussions. It's also a valuable tool to save time, there's a reason we're not testing a blue splash for Storm Crow. And that reason is theorizing.

I'll argue that anyone skilled in playing D&T is qualified to discuss potential includes in the deck as well as potential splashes. The reason being that such a person is well aware of what makes the deck able to win, and why it loses when it does.

[frenadol]

Well I think you're wrong in that. And let me tell you why.

First of all Barook is just saying that a fundamental strategy of D&T is mana denial and by not playing rishadan port you're basically giving up on that entirely. Rishadan Port is arguably the most powerful form of mana denial we have access to, because it even locks down basic lands and helps vs. creature strategies. If you're not playing a mana denial plan, you're not playing D&T.

Second of all, you certainly can give your opinion of something you haven't played before. It's called theorizing, and it is well and alive in MTG discussions. It's also a valuable tool to save time, there's a reason we're not testing a blue splash for Storm Crow. And that reason is theorizing.

I'll argue that anyone skilled in playing D&T is qualified to discuss potential includes in the deck as well as potential splashes. The reason being that such a person is well aware of what makes the deck able to win, and why it loses when it does.
And I'm not saying that so and so deck is Death and Taxes and that one isn't because we are free to draw our own conclusions about what is considered part of what archetype and whatnot. I myself don't regard any blue version with Clique and TNN as Death and Taxes because as you said it gives up most of the mana denial plan in favour of other disruption paths, but that's only my own opinion on the matter. And precisely because of that I didn't want to bring it here but instead I posted it in Noble Fish since I received some PMs of people interested in seeing a Vial build with Thalia. It was only after I saw people talking about it here that I decided to give my opinion on the matter.

And I didn't mean to confront anyone about what should and shouldn't be discussed here, as that was certainly not my intention at all. I'm myself all for theorizing and discussing potential cards to add to the deck, that's what I and surely most of you guys spend a large amount of time doing because we all share the same passion for succeeding with this deck. What I meant is that it isn't conductive to a constructive discussion to draw conclussions about anything and regarding things as "this and this are bad and shouldn't be played because it wouldn't be Death and Taxes". I understand that much of the stuff discussed can seem far fetched and removed from the usual workings of the deck but that shouldn't stop us from doing what you're saying, theorizing, and even better, getting actual gameplay with them. Moon effects may be a nombo with Wasteland and Port at a first glance, but you went ahead and built the deck and played it and saw that it worked.

[Nihils]

I don't know if it's a factor or not for GP Lille, but Philipp outs the red splash here:

http://www.mtgmintcard.com/articles/writers/philipp-sch%C3%B6negger/legacy-lessons-top-6-decks-top-6-recommendations

[Black_Diamond]

Hi @ll,

I want to give you a short report of a 29-man monthly tournament I won with Imperial Taxes here in Germany two weeks ago. I played Bahra´s List with one little change in the sideboard: I dropped 1 x Ethersworn Canonist for 1 x Cataclysm. Let me start with this: Magus of the moon is “da man” in Legacy, he won me so many games now, it´s incredible.

Round 1: Omnitell 2-0
Game 1: He can´t find his combo pieces fast enough, Flickerwisp on his Emrakul wins me the game.
Game 2: Ethersworn Canonist + show and telled Leonin Relic-Warder on Omniscience win me the game

Round 2: UW-Control 2-1
Game 1: Thalia + Mana denial + Magus of the moon is game for me
Game 2: TNN kills me pretty fast
Game 3: Mom + Mirran Crusader with Jitte = win

Round 3: Maverick 1-1-1
Game 1: Jitte with counter + Magus of the moon is the game win for me
Game 2: Connected Jitte for my opponent is the win for him
Game 3: Both of us have a connected Jitte and I had a revoker on Quasali Pride Mage, so the game timed out with both of us still pretty healthy

Round 4: Reanimator 2-0
Game 1: Turn 1 Aether Vial for me, Turn 2 Iona (calling white) for my opponent, with 7 life left I could play Flickerwisp by Aether Vial and top decked Karakas in my turn and can steal the game
Game 2: Opponent has turn 2 Iona again (with Animate Dead), I can find Aether Vial, with 3 life left I found Fiendhunter and can steal the game again.

Round 5: MUD 2-1
Game 1: Trinisphere and 2 Wastelands by my opponent kill me
Game 2: Leonin Relic Warder + Magus of the moon are money in this game and I win
Game 3: Pretty close game here, with a lot of Wastelands on both sides, I had an active Aether Vial and can finally cast Cataclysm (with Ugin Planeswalker on his side of the table), he can´t recover and I win in the third or fourth extra turn

Round 6: BUG Delver 2-1
Game 1: Aether Vial for me turn 1, Magus of the moon played by Aether Vial is game
Game 2: He´s too fast with Delver and can counter some of my keycards
Game 3: Sudden Demise his Delver, can resolve Rest in Peace and finally Magus of the moon, that´s game.

As a long time mono-white player I am really convinced by the red splash and really like to make cool things with Imperial Recruiter, Magus of the Moon and my personal favorite Flickerwisp. I am really looking forward to play this list in Lille and for sure I will have some interesting games with it.

Cheers

[Curby]

@Black_Diamond congrats on the win! As a sort of not-very-constructive general thought, it would be awesome to see some Red splash and Green splash decks at Lille and see how they do at a large event. How bout a top 16 with some of each? Mostly I just want the debates about relative power level to continue. With more viable builds/strategies come higher chances for better longevity!

@Nihils in the comments for that article, he also mentions a lower density of Wastelands. If people build greedy, that increases the usefulness of our taxes. Though we're kind of trying to have it both ways by being greedy ourselves and not playing basic Mountains and Forests in our splash builds.

[iatee]

here's an attempt at a cavern-based multicolor splash. 4 recruiters main allows for the sb to operate like a creature-wishboard.

humans, advisors and taxes

26 creatures
4x mother of runes
4x thalia
4x stoneforge mystic
4x flickerwisp
4x imperial recuiter
2x magus of the moon
2x revoker
1x gaddock teeg
1x ethersworn canonist

11 spells
4x swords to plowshares
4x aether vial
1x batterskull
1x jitte
1x sword of fire and ice

23 lands
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port
4x cavern of souls
4x fetch
2x karakas
3x plains
1x plateau
1x savannah



sb

3 rip
2 sudden demise
2 canonist
2 leonin relic-warder
1 containment priest
1 gaddock
1 meddling mage
1 orzhov pontiff
1 sin collector
1 mirran crusader

[Barook]

4 Cavern seems excessive. As soon as you want to cast a colored spell or use SFM, you're going to run into trouble. I even don't like Cavern outside of Imperial Taxes for this very reason.

On a different topic:
I'm still brainstorming what else could be good cards for the blue splash. Gilded Drake might be a potential SB card.

[Whitefaces]

4 Cavern seems excessive. As soon as you want to cast a colored spell or use SFM, you're going to run into trouble. I even don't like Cavern outside of Imperial Taxes for this very reason.

On a different topic:
I'm still brainstorming what else could be good cards for the blue splash. Gilded Drake might be a potential SB card.

Gilded Drake doesn't necessarily make you play Blue. If it's for SnT, then I guess you're hoping they put in Emmy. I'd prefer to have Confusion in the Ranks

What cards have been suggested so far? I assume Meddling Mage?

[Stevestamopz]

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11050782_915035588537601_6559137190034020221_n.jpg?oh=e50da033bebb43319ae2241dcb34b2c5&oe=563214F4

Thoughts?

CMC of 4 with WWW is probably a bit optimistic, but the taxing effects combined with the usual Port/Waste/Thalia sound decent in grindy matchups.

[Barook]

The critical part is the CC. Tripple white is no joke with our mana base (much harder than Resto for those who ran it) and I can rarely see us wanting to tick up our Vials to 4 just for this angel. That's the bad side.

As for the good side, it's AD-immune and Bolt-proof. It can also block Delvers, Batterskull, even 4/5 Goyfs like a champ.

It also fits very well our taxing theme. Aside from stopping them from alpha-striking, it can also prepare our alpha-strike when you tap down their lands during their upkeep and our following upkeep to leave them without mana. Sadly, the card is too slow to stop Elves from stomping us (and they have insane amounts of mana anyway).

The effect is definitely powerful, but only testing can determine whether or not it's worth the high investment cost.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Consistency provides two unmentioned reasons why mono-white builds continue to do well in capable hands: (1) a deck that loses to its own inconsistency seldom does well

#1 is certainly something I was always keeping in mind, especially on the landbase. Bahra and I arrived at very similar landbases, though I think without Moon effects, 5 fetches - with 3 of each Plains and Savannah - is the way to go with green. With only 3 Savannahs, I've not yet been in a situation where I'd needed to worry "this is the last one I have in the deck, hope it doesn't get Wastelanded." I think you need to use Cavern of Souls in either build. I think Horizon Canopy is tempting for Wg, but ultimately wrong.

Regarding consistency, you should know me as the warrior of the prevention of deck-building"unforced errors". It's the reason I'd never run 4 Avengers. It's the reason why CMC4 is a big no-no. Why to not run Leonin Arbiter with Mystic. Why not to run Avenger with Restoration Angel. Why not to run spells that aren't certified topdecks. Why not to run 3+ of a non-essential legendary creature. Why not to run <15 white source lands. "Scumbag Deck" is the worst person you can meet at a tournament.

Fetchlands are not a net-loss for consistency, especially if your power gains offset major weaknesses, otherwise we'd see a lot less of them in the format. You could say inconsistency is not being able to filter your cards nor search your library for the one right tool, attributes that splash versions contain.

In a format FULL of Moon effects, you're right, Mono is absolutely more consistent with it's manabase. Ditto for an insane amount of Stifle and perhaps Burn. In a format like now, with hardcore blue control, grindfest decks, and too-cruel-to-be-true combo decks, fetchlands are about right.

[Bosque]

https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/11050782_915035588537601_6559137190034020221_n.jpg?oh=e50da033bebb43319ae2241dcb34b2c5&oe=563214F4

Thoughts?

CMC of 4 with WWW is probably a bit optimistic, but the taxing effects combined with the usual Port/Waste/Thalia sound decent in grindy matchups.

If we're going to 4 CMC I think I'd consider Hokori, Dust Drinker or Restoration Angel before this one. WWW is really hard to cast for us sometimes, but I see where you're going with the utility in grindy creature matchups.

[Bosque]

http://i.imgur.com/BcYLXD4.png

Glowrider just turned into a flying horse.

New spoiler.

[MGB]

New spoiler.

Compared to Glowrider this one might be playable MD due to flying. Seems as if this guy in addition to Thalia would improve the Omnitell matchup considerably.

Or you could just go all-in with 4 Thalia, 4 Glowrider, and 4 of this new guy and really take it to those pesky combo decks.

[Barook]

Seems really good and can go into our flexspots. It also serves as another evasive beater.

The only thing I dislike about it that it's another X/1 creature, making us even weaker to -1/-1 effects.

[Curby]

Or you could just go all-in with 4 Thalia, 4 Glowrider, and 4 of this new guy and really take it to those pesky combo decks.

EDIT: This made me think: if this effect was so sorely lacking in D&T, why didn't we play Glowrider*? Flying is big for combat, but if that's the only thing that makes Wingmare playable, it's faint praise for the disruptive effect. In other words, saying "it's nice disruption, but only if it flies" doesn't say much for the disruption. If we're putting this in the sideboard and only bringing it in for combo/S&T, flying doesn't matter. If we're maindecking it and relying on its Flying for combat, I can better see the benefit over Glowrider but I wonder if it's better than Brimaz and Crusader, i.e. resilient beats. I certainly don't see it pulling more weight than Magus/Recruiter or Pridemage/Teeg in those respective builds, but it makes a stronger case for mono-white with its more resilient manabase.

tl;dr does maindecking Wingmare let mono-white maintain the title of best overall D&T build?

(*Before anyone complains, I know D&T used to play Glowrider years ago when Thorn effects and Orim's Chant were all we had against combo. There are no notable recent builds that ran Glowrider.)

[cursecatcher]

On first impression, the flying seems enormously significant to me, giving another creature that carries equipment well and also can trade with delver when needed. Replacing slots like brimaz and crusader with another x/1 is concerning, but perhaps that can be made up for with the remaining slots.

Just a quick initial idea for a new creature base with this pegasus:

4 mom
4 thalia
4 sfm
4 revoker
4 flickerwisp
4 pegasus
2 serra avenger

This lets us maintain the standard eight 3-drops, have a ton of fliers, and keep serra avenger as the 'meaty beater' role. I might be totally off-case thinking the pegasus could be a 4-of, but it seems worth exploring.

[mikerickson12]

another upside is unlike Thalia you can play multiples of Wingmare to increase the taxing affect. agree that flying is awesome. at least it's not human so it's 2/1 body most likely would dodge a engeinered plague.

[Barook]

As for Mono-W, I might start trying out the following configuration:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Vryn Wingmare

That's at least what my gut feeling are telling me.

[CheddarOps]

if this effect was so sorely lacking in D&T, why didn't we play Glowrider*? Flying is big for combat, but if that's the only thing that makes Wingmare playable, it's faint praise for the disruptive effect. In other words, saying "it's nice disruption, but only if it flies" doesn't say much for the disruption.


It only being playable because it has flying does not diminish the usefulness of the disruptive ability. This will see play, in my opinion, where glowrider did not because of the flying. It can't be blocked by a goyf or TNN. The taxing affect is great, but only if the card actually helps you kill the opponent. Glowrider did not against legitimately any creature in the game. That's also why you don't see many, if any, successful D&T decks playing mainboard Thorn of Amethyst. It taxes, but it doesn't pressure them. You need both.

[kkkant]

Besides being awesome vs combo, the fact that it can trade for a delver or (equiped)-racing a tnn is huge.

[Farone]

I think the Archangel of Tithes will be to expensive with 4CMC and cost of 1WWW.
But the Vryn Wingmare sounds good to try out, only problem I think is the 1 toughness, but more tax effects and being able to trade with Delver sounds good to me

[delcameron]

Omni-Tell is a regular at my local store and I'd like more meat against it. Upping the Canonists to 4 seems good against those running red for Bolts and Pyroclasm (since we have Mom), but those running black for Massacre seem to have me beat. Is there a tech I'm missing, aside from keeping a vial at 2? I play either mono-W or Wg.

[Finn]

A very simple solution to the issue with Massacre is to not have any Plains on the battlefield. Try swapping out four Plains for four Flagstones of Trokair and manage your lands well.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Hey Bahra, quick question about Wr regarding Infect. You were saying it was a problem matchup for mono (though I seem to do alright with Wg), but I was wondering what the main draw is: Magus of the Moon or Sudden Demise? Demise seems like less so the solution because it's sorcery speed and wouldn't get rid of Inkmoth Nexus, so does that leave you mulling to get a Recruiter or Magus? Seems like it's still slow-going to need to rely on getting to turn 3 or 4 unscathed. Just hope you also had a Plowshares and a Thalia along the way, then turn all their lands into a pile of poop so they are just forced to concede short of topdecking the one basic Forest?

[LeoCop 90]

Well, i suppose nexus i not that much of a problem when you have 4 wasteland, 4 ports, 4 plows and magus of the moon.
Sudden demise is of course excellent to get rid of any other creature they have on the field.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Well, i suppose nexus i not that much of a problem when you have 4 wasteland, 4 ports, 4 plows and magus of the moon.
Sudden demise is of course excellent to get rid of any other creature they have on the field.
Correct, but you still have to pay with X. You could tap out with X being 4 and they still save their 1/1 dork with Invigorate, Vines of Vastwood, Become Immense, etc.

[Luca Grease]

Correct, but you still have to pay with X. You could tap out with X being 4 and they still save their 1/1 dork with Invigorate, Vines of Vastwood, Become Immense, etc.

Not only it doesn't kill the nexus, but they'll often have multiple green critters on the field between hierarchs and glistener elves, and you'll still be forced to name blue because blighted agent is the one you absolutely need to get rid of. As absurd as that sounds, Holy light is probably a better card against infect.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Not only it doesn't kill the nexus, but they'll often have multiple green critters on the field between hierarchs and glistener elves, and you'll still be forced to name blue because blighted agent is the one you absolutely need to get rid of. As absurd as that sounds, Holy light is probably a better card against infect.
Does Wr DnT want to play Electrickery as a result or does Magus pretty much end the game if you make it to turn 3?

[Bahra]

I of course don't mulligan to Magus of the Moon against infect. The fact that I have blow out cards like Magus of the Moon and Sudden Demise against Infect means that a lot more hands are keepable than before. So after board I have 6 cards that are fantastic against them and I still have swords to plowshares, thalia, jitte etc.

So the likelihood that I get a draw that gives me a great chance of winning is much higher than with mono white or Wg where there's a lot of mediocre cards.

[Ayiluss]

I have a question regarding WR version. I was thinking of trying that red splash version and I'm wondering if it's still playable or at least worth without Imperial Recruiters. I know it's a good card and deck will probably be less consistent but I don't have and really can't afford them. Thanks in advance for any kind of answers.

[c2232]

I know nobody gives two squirts about my opinion but I figured I would throw it in anyway. I have been playing D&T for about two years now with reasonable success, yesterday at the Baltimore Super IQ I tried the red splash for the first time....... Holy shit! I had a blast and it felt as though my bad matchups were not much of a worry anymore. I destroyed infect twice (both Magus and Sudden Demise did major work), I took down lands in a really grindy match, and continued to generally beat faces. I lost one match (Miracles.... loss later revenged against the same guy) and also lost in the finals due to bad keeps, poor draws, and even worse play (long day). I cannot recommend the red splash enough, it felt ultra powerful and crazy fun. Thanks to Bahra for being innovative. Let me know if you have any questions, I would write a tourney report but that sounds like work.

[Stevestamopz]

I know nobody gives two squirts about my opinion but I figured I would throw it in anyway. I have been playing D&T for about two years now with reasonable success, yesterday at the Baltimore Super IQ I tried the red splash for the first time....... Holy shit! I had a blast and it felt as though my bad matchups were not much of a worry anymore. I destroyed infect twice (both Magus and Sudden Demise did major work), I took down lands in a really grindy match, and continued to generally beat faces. I lost one match (Miracles.... loss later revenged against the same guy) and also lost in the finals due to bad keeps, poor draws, and even worse play (long day). I cannot recommend the red splash enough, it felt ultra powerful and crazy fun. Thanks to Bahra for being innovative. Let me know if you have any questions, I would write a tourney report but that sounds like work.

Congrats!

I really like your Mystic Crusader tech (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87177):cool:

[Tylert]

I know nobody gives two squirts about my opinion but I figured I would throw it in anyway. I have been playing D&T for about two years now with reasonable success, yesterday at the Baltimore Super IQ I tried the red splash for the first time....... Holy shit! I had a blast and it felt as though my bad matchups were not much of a worry anymore. I destroyed infect twice (both Magus and Sudden Demise did major work), I took down lands in a really grindy match, and continued to generally beat faces. I lost one match (Miracles.... loss later revenged against the same guy) and also lost in the finals due to bad keeps, poor draws, and even worse play (long day). I cannot recommend the red splash enough, it felt ultra powerful and crazy fun. Thanks to Bahra for being innovative. Let me know if you have any questions, I would write a tourney report but that sounds like work.

We care about your opinion.
Report plz.

[Barook]

Congrats!

I really like your Mystic Crusader tech (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87177):cool:
Was it actually a Mystic Crusader and not just a typo of Mirran Crusader?

[c2232]

Congrats!

I really like your Mystic Crusader tech (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=87177):cool:

Yeah that would be sweet, it was actually a mirran crusader though :)

[Bahra]

I know nobody gives two squirts about my opinion but I figured I would throw it in anyway. I have been playing D&T for about two years now with reasonable success, yesterday at the Baltimore Super IQ I tried the red splash for the first time....... Holy shit! I had a blast and it felt as though my bad matchups were not much of a worry anymore. I destroyed infect twice (both Magus and Sudden Demise did major work), I took down lands in a really grindy match, and continued to generally beat faces. I lost one match (Miracles.... loss later revenged against the same guy) and also lost in the finals due to bad keeps, poor draws, and even worse play (long day). I cannot recommend the red splash enough, it felt ultra powerful and crazy fun. Thanks to Bahra for being innovative. Let me know if you have any questions, I would write a tourney report but that sounds like work.

Gratz on the result. I would love to read a report.

[c2232]

Quick down and dirty

Rd1: -vs- a black/green hexmage +reanimator deck
game 1 he made a misplay that helped me win. Game 2 he turn 1ed iona…… that’s difficult. Game 3 he thoughtsiezed me 3 time getting a surgical extraction and 2 flickerwisps and the did the depths thespian combo for his 20/20…… I topdecked one of two remaining flickerwisp….. I actually felt pretty bad about that.

Rd2: -vs- infect
He got me game 1 with stuff on stuff with some stuff. Game 2 magus of the moon blew him out. Game 3 sudden demise on his glistner elf, next turn magus of the moon finished the job.

Rd3: -vs- infect
Game 1 he attempted become immense on his blue infect dude but I had flickerwisp then magus. Game 2 sudden demise on his 2 nobles and glistner elf (he saved the elf with a pump spell) next turn magus of the moon finished the job.

Rd4: -vs- lands
Game 1 I got the magus in and equipped it with SOFI, he scooped. Game 2 was really grindy with him knowing I had the magus and me knowing he had the punishing fire, there was a lot of small damage here and there but eventually he busted crop rotation into the 20/20 and killed me. Game 3 was about the same as game two with him coming one mana short of pulling it out….. basically he activated thespians stage to copy dark depths and I vialed in magus, turns out everything still happens as usual except he doesnt get the 20/20 until he kills the magus, he was 1 mana short of gamble + punishing fire.

Rd5: -vs- black/white stoneforge, bob, lingering souls thing
This match was kind of a blow out in my favor, I have played this guy before and it usually get pretty grindy but this time jitte threw down game 1 and manriki was dominant game 2

Rd6: -vs- miracles
I really cant remember much about this match, it was really super crazy grindy…. He had top a bunch of times which tilts me super hard because it add so much time to everything……………….. #bantop. I got the 2nd game but he had top balance thing the other two games along with counter for my early vial attempts.

Rd7: r/w/u controlish stoneforge non-delver
Game one I got a magus out while he had nothing but tundras, that really surprised him…. he bolted it, that really surprised me, I ended up getting there with thalia and SOFI. Game 2 double vial thaila and some porting/wasting slowed him and I was able two apply small beats for awhile, he was forced to verdict, I vialed in recruiter for stoneforge and vialed in stoneforge EOT SOFI & Jitte carried home.

Rd8: ID

QF: -vs- Miracles……. Same guy that beat me round 6
Unfortunately I don’t remember much about this again, top makes my brain shut off #bantop. i got there game 2 and in game 3 triple vial got crazy.

SF: -vs- dredge
Ummmm yeah luck….. game 1 he mulled to 4 and still made a close game out of it. Game 2 I got mirran crusader with jitte….. cant stop wont stop.

F: -vs- BUG
We don’t talk about this, easily the most embarrassing match I have ever played. I kept aweful hands that did nothing, drew into garbage, and made multiple mistakes.

Once again I cannot recommend the red splash enough, when magus did flat out win games for me he caused my opponent to play super conservative to get around it. As you can see I have a few different choices, let me explain.
No cavern of souls – forgot it at home
No fiend hunter – I didn’t think it would be good and I thought I would have a problem with double white…. I am an idiot and will be adding him, the double white was never a problem
Main deck relic warder – this has been amazing for me for the past 6 months or so, the stoneblade decks work so hard for that equipment and this dude is a huge blow out, it had rarely been bad.
Main deck aven mindcensor – hard to let go, I am a fucking assassin with this card.
Batterskull in the side – I moved it there about 6 months ago and have never missed it.
Surgical extraction in the side – realy good against loam and punishing fire (these two have given me a lot of problems in the past) also quality against some combo like storm and obviously dredge.

[iatee]

Very interested in your batterskull-as-sb and leonin main. Did you feel more punished or rewarded over the course of the tournament by those choices?