[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive] - Page 2

marko

02-18-2008, 06:12 AM

My result of MC in Paris, France. 16/02/08
47 players

my list :
12 Plains
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Serra Avenger
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Silver Knight
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Weathered Wayfarer
2 True believer
4 Mana Tithe
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Cataclysm
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard:
1 Jotun Grunt
2 True Believer
1 Cataclysm
3 Tivadar of Thorn
4 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Ice floe

1st match : WG equipments- I loose the die roll.
Sword and creatures give me victory (2-0)

2nd match : Goblins R/b (finish 5th)- I loose the die roll
1 round : Wayfarer gives me recursive wasterland for destroying these bilands and Rishadan ports. Grunt kills.
2 round : Cataclysm+Tivadar+Jitte are too strong. (2-0)

3d match : Faery stompy (finish 7th)- I loose the die roll
1 round : I don't know what my opponent plays. I have Vial, sword, and one plains in my opening hand. He begins with City of traitors=>Chalice at one.
I can't do anything.
2 round : I begin with Vial. him, chalice at one. his knocks are stronger than mines, whith his flying creatures. I can't play my swords and no drawing my oblivions. (0-2)
Why I put a Ice floe in my side ? Maze of ith is better !

4th match : White stax- I loose the die roll.
Recursive wasteland and cataclysm (against his artefacts) do the job. (2-0)
In the first round he kept crucible of worlds on cataclysm, but after, i play grunt who replaces his lands under his library. Grunt is great against crucible !

5th match Faery stompy :frown:
I win the die roll (Yeahhh baby !!! )
1 round : Recursive wasteland and 3 serra avenger give me the victory.
2 and 3 round : I loose for the same reasons the 1st match against FS
I want Maze of ith !!!

6th match : Burn- I loose the die roll...again and again and...:mad:
1 round : he kills me on my turn 3, i have Jitte on board but no creature
2 round : he kills 3 True believer before me. I have Jitte on board but he kills my creatures when i equippe.

It's a bad day because i didn't have the mangara lock during this tournament. :cry:

Conclusion : D&T is a very good deck against control and aggro but aggro control is more difficult. The good cards in this tournment are :
1-Cataclysm
2-wayfarer+wasteland
3-oblivion ring
4-Grunt, because it's strong and it replaces my wastelands in my library.

The worst cards : True believer, Ice floe.

I'm going to cut the 2 true believer in maindeck for 1 maze of ith and 1 Epochrasite, to put one more true believer in the side and -1 ice floe.

Sorry for my bad translation french=>english

SouthAlly

03-26-2008, 12:17 PM

Hey guys, I have been tinkering with this deck for a couple of weeks, and I noticed some people around here have done away with the Jitte. It seems to make sense with the addition of Oblivion Rings, but I am wondering if that is a standard build.

Galroth

03-27-2008, 08:47 PM

Advice: don't do it if you're running the mono-w build. You can neglect it when you're running things like Goyf which is huge despite Jitte, or if you're cantripping into what you need. But Jitte on the mono-white weenie package is too good in D&T to let go. If possible Serra Avenger is almost always your best equip target. Isamaru often is a great target early on. Jitte is pretty much what allows you to outclass mid-range decks with your creatures.

I hate the card and think it's ruined alot of good game play. But I can't deny how good it is and even despite my inclinations to not run it when I have other options, it simply belongs in the mono-white builds. Just remember to keep your creature count high. It's what keeps death and taxes consistent. Try not to drop below 22 creatures, even that seems a bit few sometimes.

Versus

04-02-2008, 11:02 AM

Just remember to keep your creature count high. It's what keeps death and taxes consistent. Try not to drop below 22 creatures, even that seems a bit few sometimes.

I can't stress this enough. I was running 20 creatures at one point. Top decking lands and Mana Tithes with no way to dig is the suck!

Versus

04-02-2008, 11:03 AM

Joon

04-02-2008, 12:12 PM

What do you think is the best splash for D&T?

Green offers

- Gaddock Teeg MB/SB shuts off EE, Wrath, Force etc. Only thing that sucks is that he shuts off Cataclysm, too.
- Goyf.
- Krosan Grip in the Side to fight Deeds/random Enchantments/Artifacts you want to fight against

Black offers

- Dark Confidant, as teh Drawengine
- Thoughtseize
- Vindicate in the place of Oblivion Ring

Blue offers

- a bunch of cantrips
- Daze and FoW (only with heavy amount of Islands/Blue Spells)
- Meddling Mage SB

Did I forget anything?
Green seems kinda sweet but black and blue look nice, too.

Maybe we should not splash at all. Any suggestions?
And finally another question: What do you think are D&T good/average/bad Matchups...? This would help to decide which splash is the best :smile:

Thehunter820

04-02-2008, 12:29 PM

In the playing i've done with this deck, I perfer no splash, green is the best i've found. blue and black are ok, but green tends to run better for krosan grip, with all the artifacts and enchanments running around, and goyf is a nice beat for 2cc.

Kuma

04-02-2008, 01:31 PM

What do you think is the best splash for D&T?

None whatsoever. Splashing makes you vulnerable to Wastelands, Moons, B2B, and makes it harder to use Cataclysm, which is the nuts in this deck. Splashing also makes you run fetchlands, which really hurts the Dragon Stompy matchup.

In the black splash, Vindicate is only a slight upgrade over Oblivion Ring. Thoughtseize is nice, and Bob is pretty sweet, but I'm not sure what matchups black improves enough to warrent the splash.

The green splash is worse. Gaddock Teeg helps with Storm, but that matchup is always going to be bad, and there are already plenty of white/artifact cards that help: Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Mana Tithe, Glowrider, Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst. Tarmogoyf is a great beater, but is anti-synergistic with the graveyard denial strategies of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Jotun Grunt, and Stonecloaker. Krosan Grip does very little that Oblivion Ring, Disenchant, and Mangara don't do already.

Blue isn't that great either. Brainstorm, Ponder, Stifle, Meddling Mage, Leyline of Singularity was always fun, but I've never had a build that ran enough blue to use Force of Will or Daze, which is the biggest reason to add blue.

I just don't see how splashing adds to the deck. You make yourself more vulnerable to mana denial which hurts the Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, The Rock, and Vial Goblins matchups. Since the cards I've seen cut the most from these lists are Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain, which hurt the Ichorid, Threshold, and Loam/Confinement matchups to name but a few decks that use the graveyard, I have to ask all you guys who splash in D&T -- What do you gain that offsets these losses?

Finn

04-05-2008, 08:31 AM

I have tried that blue splash (the deck began blue/white) and black splash. I lik black the most, but I still play monowhite because I like disabling opponent disruption.

Ceridan

04-08-2008, 04:24 PM

Hi!
I have been playing DaT successfully on the local weekly tournament (the meta is like the t8 in most larger tournaments. I´m very interested in developing the deck further. Shadowmoore is comming, and I have found two interesting cards:

Order of Whiteclay cc3
Creature - Kithkin Cleric (R)
3 untap: Return target creature card with converted mana cost 3 or less from your graveyard to play.
1/4

Augury Adept cc3
Creature - Kithkin Wizard (R)
Whenever Augury Adept deals combat damage to a player, reveal the top card of your libary and put that card into your hand. You gain life equal to it's converted mana cost.
2/2

Do you think that any of these cards might be strong enough? DaTs largest weakness has been the lack of card drawing (even though the card economics is good), Augury Adept may fit the card drawing spot. The Order of White Clay may strengthen the card economics and bring back previously killed/countered creatures.

ssilver

04-12-2008, 11:17 PM

Both look interesting, especially the draw engine one that fits into the mono white package, but another better card just popped up in the enchantment category that helps the bad combo matchup:

Runed Halo
ww
Enchantment Rare
As Runed Halo comes into play, name a card.
You have protection from the named card. (You can't be targeted by it, and all damage that would be dealt to you by it is prevented)
#21/301

The only thing it doesnt help against is ETW, but ghostly prison sb fixes that. Plus, its an enchantment, protecting from creature hate, and is essentially a time-walk enchantment against tendrils while they waste time grabbing removal from their sb.

chmoddity

04-13-2008, 09:19 AM

That is very interesting. Considering that one and the recent Thorn of Amethyst, I think there are finally enough combo hate cards at reasonable costs to make that matchup good.

Curby

04-18-2008, 06:34 AM

I understand that Runed Halo is a sideboard card and people tend to run True Believer in the main, but is it that much better than existing sideboard options that we'd want to run the Halo too?

Whiteclay and Adept seem too slow: a Resurrecting Yotian Soldier seems fun-but-slow in this deck, and a non-evasive costly bear will attack on turn 4 (cast) or 5 (vial) and be blocked and killed by almost any other creature that's out on turn 2. Perhaps the question to ask is: what would you take out for these? D&T already runs a ton of 3-ofs, indicating that the deck is tightly packed as it is.

Zappa

04-23-2008, 03:09 AM

I have tried that blue splash (the deck began blue/white) and black splash. I lik black the most, but I still play monowhite because I like disabling opponent disruption.

Between the other colors, I'de have to say that black splash seems to help more. Confidant is a very nice engine, which can be pretty threatening once equipped with the jitte (then again what creature isnt? :laugh:).

Finn, when you made your D+T deck and splashed black, did we have the same build? Heres how I spashed black in D+T...

4X Karakas
4X Flooded Strand
4X Scrubland
3X Godless Shrine
2X Plains
1X Swamp
1X Volrath's Stronghold
3X Flagstones of Trokair

4X Aether Vial
3X cataclysm

4X Dark Confidant
4X Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4X True Believer
4X Mangara of Corondor

4X Swords to Plowshares
4X Thoughtseize
4X Cabal Therapy

3X Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 4 Mother of Runes
SB: 4 Warmth
SB: 4 Extirpate

Mother of Runes for me seems to warrant a side board in case I run into decks packing alot of removals. Other than that I think the rest ispretty self explanatory.

I really, really, would like to add vindicate in the list, however, I keep thinking to myself... is it really worth it? Just doesn't seem like it is needed.

Ceridan

04-23-2008, 03:47 AM

Hi!

I can´t really understand why people still play True Beliver. Every deck that he is good against got answers for it (Solidarity has like 5 cards in SB that the can fetch with Cunning Wish+ one or more echoing truth in main). Most of the time it´s just a 2/2 for WW, not very optimal.

DaT is NOT a 8-land stompy, it´s an aggro/controll deck. The deck does not win on fast damage, but boardcontroll and card economy (playing the stonecloakers/mangaras etc right).

Zappa

04-23-2008, 12:30 PM

While it is just a 2/2 for WW, he still does trades with quite a bit of creatures. Yes it is true that many decks has an answer for it, many decks has an answer or some form of a silver bullet against othe problems as well. Should that stop you from playing the card? They can find the answer all they want, like you said they can fetch an answer form their side board. But that just delays them even more. They used their tutor to find a way around the creature, instead of getting their win card.

True Believer has quite alot of use in my area. Many decks are packing hand destruction, few burn decks running around, and several combo decks running around. Granted I play an uphill battle against fast weenie decks, but it just comes down to who has the jitte, and can I stall long enough for cataclysm.

marko

04-24-2008, 01:15 PM

If you play True believer in main deck, i think Absolute law is better than Warmth in SB. True believer + Absolute law = victory against Burn (be careful at Anarchy). and Absolute law is better against Gob and Aggroloam RG.

In your deck list i don't like Flagstones of trokair with Samurai OTPC. Perhaps Jotun Grunt is better.

Mr Wiggl3s

05-03-2008, 07:38 PM

6. Reanimator - Is that a turn 1 Akroma? I play Karakas, gg.

Good reanimators are running akroma anymore... Just a FYI

Your better getting rid of mana base than creatures

Maëlig

05-16-2008, 06:45 AM

As you all know, one of the weakness of this deck are board-sweepers. In a meta full of EE, deed and devastating dreams, could kight of the holy nimbus be a viable option? I've been running him for a while now because of the mini-rebel engine, and I've found that he's actually quite good by himself. He gives you tempo advantage (which is an area where this deck doesn't really shine imho) and is great with jitte or cataclysm (and simply with wasteland/port). Your opinion?

loop

05-16-2008, 11:49 AM

I'm not so sure that D+T is so weak against sweepers (we're even running one ourselves); if you don't overcommit creatures, you shouldn't run out of steam against decks packing sweepers. Actually, most of the time I'm more concerned about losing Vial/jitte on a Deed than a few creatures.
Besides, what creature would you cut for KotHN ? In the build(s) proposed by Finn, the creature base seems tightly packed : 3 disruptive beaters, 2 vanilla-but-so-underpriced creatures (Isamaru and Serra Avenger), and 1 wild card (Stonecloaker). Cutting disruptive creatures for resilient beaters seems like an overall bad move to me (just like I'm now using Believer again, instead of Silver Knight)... so I'd say it's either Isamaru or Avenger. Avenger seems too good to cut, so I guess KotHN is competing with Isamaru for the slot.
Mmh, actually they seem equally good. Isamaru+Karakas tricks allow him to survive through trickery and he fits better in the curve, but KotHN just won't die in the first place, and you can have multiples... I guess it's up to personal preference. KotHN does get jitte counters tho, while a bounced Isamaru won't get any.
With the rebel engine you're using KotHN is awesome, but in Finn's build, I'm not sure...

Kuma

05-16-2008, 02:10 PM

KotHN is a decent option, but I wouldn't cut Isamaru for him. I run 4 Isamaru in my build and the problems with his legendary status are negligable. Isamaru does so much in D&T, sets the mana curve, gives you something to do with Aether Vial at 1, chump blocks all day with Karakas, stops turn 1 Goblin Lackey, eats non-threshed Mongooses for breakfast, and speeds up your damage clock.

I'd cut SotPC, Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, or True Believer for him if your meta is light on Thresh and Ichorid.

MTL10

05-16-2008, 02:18 PM

I realize that Karakas is really important in this deck, but how often do you have problems with the legendary rule with it running 4 of in the main deck? i could understand running 3, seeing as it's amazing with the creatures of this deck.

loop

05-16-2008, 02:32 PM

@ Kuma
I agree. And Isamaru being legendary is actually not a drawback at all here... of course you can't play multiples, but then again you don't want to overcommit anyway, since you should always think about your post-Cataclysm game.

@ MTL10
Multiple Karakas do happen a lot, but then I just sac the one in play to cataclysm and play the other afterwards... Or have a second one to play after wasteland. All in all, playing 4 is never a bad idea.

Melwis

06-25-2008, 08:51 PM

I've recently got my eyes on this deck and I think it is really fun to play! After several MWS games this is what my list looks now (going to bed after this post):

// Lands
4 [ARE] Plains (7)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ARE] Swamp (4)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Scrubland

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [UD] Phyrexian Negator
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [UL] Mother of Runes
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AP] Vindicate

I think the black splash is solid giving the deck some very needed card draw trough Confidant. Sensei's is what I added in the list most recently and it works really well combined with Confidant and fetches.

As you can see I don't include Cataclysm because has many others have said I think it's kinda situational and not very good versus lots of decks out there.

The most funny thing about this deck is there is so many cards that I really want to try out:

- All the 2cc creatures including Spectral Lynx now that I have black.

- Discard (Duress, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy)

- StP, Oblivion Ring, Bitterblossom, Exalted Angel (though risky with Confidant I know but with Sensei's it should work), Worship (why not?), Reverent Mantra (wincon or prot for your creatures sounds good?)

Tell me what you think about the list and these suggestions! :)

PS: I'm aware that the list is some mixture between Deadguy Ale and D&T (or something) but since I started developing it in this thread i'm posting here :)

ebbitten

06-25-2008, 09:17 PM

Melwis

06-26-2008, 05:16 AM

I hate to be a downer but you're running a lot of cards that were dismissed after a good deal of testing including: Negator, Weathered Wayfarer, Top and running Wasteland over Port. Catacylsm still seems like it should be good against enough of the decks to still run and STP always seemed like a staple to me.

Don't take these comments to hard though, innovate as long as you are willing to do legitimate testing.

Well sure, i'm not saying i've discovered the ultimate decklist here or anything but still it has been very promising. If you ask me Weathered Wayfarer is just nuts not to play since he can turn into a Wasteland softlock or get you Karakas when you need that. I haven't tried Port in the deck so far jsut because i'm not a big fan of the land. What makes it so much better than Wasteland in this deck exactly?

I must say that Negator is better than you think in this deck atleast as a 2-of since versus some decks you can just throw him out and end the match quickly without worrying about him taking damage. But with Mother of Runes in the field you don't have to worry at all about Negator's usual drawback.

StP might deserve a spot in the list I agree on that. But between your creatures, Mangara, Vindicate and Jitte you usually have some way to deal with them still.

ebbitten

06-26-2008, 06:20 PM

Melwis

06-26-2008, 07:35 PM

The problem with negator is two fold in my mind. First he isn't all that much bigger than goyf and he actually costs 1 more, and you can't reasonably dark rit him out 1st turn in a WB deck. Second His drawback is still aplicable a lot of the time, and having to have mother of runes to negate Negator's drawback takes away part of what made this deck so good: each creature is a legitimate threat without the help of other creatures. Still if its proving succesful you can continue to test it, just be objective in your testing and don't try to defend a card simply because once upon a time it was in your list.

I guess most things you mention are true but I still don't think 2 Negators in a list with 4 Mothers can be all that bad. It really is a surprise for your opponent aswell because they will certainly not suspect Negator. Even more so is it when you got Vial on 2 counters upping it to 3 and then BANG you throw out a 5/5 at end of opponents turn :)

But anyways. I decided to listen to what you said and cut both Negator and Mother. I did however stay with black because I really think I have something going here. This is how the list turned out this time:

// Lands
4 [ARE] Plains (7)
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [ARE] Swamp (4)
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
2 [AP] Spectral Lynx

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [AP] Vindicate
2 [A] Swords to Plowshares

I added 2 Stonecloakers and they did help so I understand why many lists include them (but 3 might be a bit to much unless you have LOTS of creatures imo). I decided to try out Lynx and the first opponent I faced was an Elf deck and I got Lynx + Jitte out so it was pretty sweet :) But I think the card should be a house versus Goyf which i've heard does see atleast some play in Legacy..? The regenerate is just a bonus the way I see it.

And Weathered Wayfarer is so stupid I just can't leave myself playing any less than 4. Especially since i'm running 2 colors he's another way to not make you go color screwed. Besides doing that he also fetches Karakas or works as Wasteland lock (sometimes atleast). I think 2-3 of these in every list more or less is a no brainer but in my I really want 4!

I'm not to sure about Sensei's Divinig Top anymore. It helps out dodging damage taken from Confidant but I just realised you are more likely winning anyways if you got a Confidant to stay so it might not be all that great. However it does give you some more card quality especially since iv'e got fetches. But these might get cut for 2 more Swords or something else.

I really want to have another Mangara, Jitte and Serra Avenger but right now there just isn't room. If Lynx turns out to be mediocre then I will swap them for Jitte + Avenger probably. Cutting 1 Vindicate for 1 Mangara might also be worth it perhaps?

That's it for now! Any help or suggestions with my list is appreciated alot :)

ebbitten

06-27-2008, 11:31 PM

Melwis

06-28-2008, 10:33 AM

just at a glance i would cut the SDTs for STPs, the swamp for the 4th karakas (i know its legendary but all the testing from this deck supports this) and maybe one of the vindicates for another avenger or something, the 3cc is just a little crowded. Active confident will never really make you worry because the average cc is incredibly low especially w/o tombstalker or catacylsm. Worst case scenario you remove a couple jitte counters for life.

Yeah just as I predicted (and as you suggest) the SDT's has been cut for STP's since Sensei's where more or less unnecassary. I have also cut the swamp because you really want WW in the deck but i'm not adding a 4th Karakas in the list. The reason 3 Karakas is enough in my list is simple; Weathered Wayfarer. Thanks to him I really don't think 4 Karakas is correct. I have also swapped 1 Wasteland for 1 Rishadan Port just for those times where Port is better than Wasteland (when you got Vial out for example). With Wayfarer Port is easily fetched for so just having 1 in the deck still lets you get it when you need it!

Spectral Lynx has been cut aswell just because the only thing it's really good against is Goyf but I think the cards that takes it's place, 1 Serra Avenger and 1 Jitte, is just strictly better. Besides, with 3 Jotun Grunts in the list Goyf isn't that scary as you might think!

I don't think running 8 cards with cmc 3 is gonna lose you the game thanks to Confidants more than it wins you the game. If you play any less this deck has a very hard time dealing with Chalice and/or Trinisphere (it still does) but having enough cards that costs 3 helps a bit. And as you said, you got Jitte as life gain to save you in those unlucky moments.

With all these changes this is how the list looks now:

// Lands
5 [ARE] Plains (7)
3 [TE] Wasteland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Scrubland
3 [LG] Karakas
1 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
4 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares

ebbitten

06-28-2008, 10:57 AM

looks about how i would make it (except i never had great success w/ wayfarer, just too often the oppenent can play around it) now you should probably start working on the sb, the biggest problem is definitely storm combo and then after that it really depends on your meta.

Kuma

06-28-2008, 11:36 AM

Why do people insist on splashing in this deck? I would like it if some of the splashers read my post #270 and answered my questions.

Melwis

06-28-2008, 12:20 PM

None whatsoever. Splashing makes you vulnerable to Wastelands, Moons, B2B, and makes it harder to use Cataclysm, which is the nuts in this deck. Splashing also makes you run fetchlands, which really hurts the Dragon Stompy matchup.

In the black splash, Vindicate is only a slight upgrade over Oblivion Ring. Thoughtseize is nice, and Bob is pretty sweet, but I'm not sure what matchups black improves enough to warrent the splash.

The green splash is worse. Gaddock Teeg helps with Storm, but that matchup is always going to be bad, and there are already plenty of white/artifact cards that help: Orim's Chant, Abeyance, Mana Tithe, Glowrider, Chalice of the Void, Thorn of Amethyst. Tarmogoyf is a great beater, but is anti-synergistic with the graveyard denial strategies of Samurai of the Pale Curtain, Jotun Grunt, and Stonecloaker. Krosan Grip does very little that Oblivion Ring, Disenchant, and Mangara don't do already.

Blue isn't that great either. Brainstorm, Ponder, Stifle, Meddling Mage, Leyline of Singularity was always fun, but I've never had a build that ran enough blue to use Force of Will or Daze, which is the biggest reason to add blue.

I just don't see how splashing adds to the deck. You make yourself more vulnerable to mana denial which hurts the Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy, The Rock, and Vial Goblins matchups. Since the cards I've seen cut the most from these lists are Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, and Samurai of the Pale Curtain, which hurt the Ichorid, Threshold, and Loam/Confinement matchups to name but a few decks that use the graveyard, I have to ask all you guys who splash in D&T -- What do you gain that offsets these losses?

The biggest reason I see in splasing black is simply because of Dark Confidant and the card advantage that he gives you (or the creature removal he soaks up). If you look at my list and remove Confidant, what white creature could possibly weight up the loss of Confidant?

I also think the SB gets better aswell since you now have discard against combo (I know you got True Believer in white but most combo decks can handle him). Plague is also available but not sure you need it vs. Goblins since you got Jitte but still, it's a choice.

And in my list I haven't cut either Grunt or Stonecloaker so I guess that point doesn't add in against me..

Valtrix

06-28-2008, 02:05 PM

I don't really think a (black) splash is neccessary. Generally, if you have enough creatures, you're going to be putting enough pressure on them already. If they could deal with all those creatures to begin with, then having a draw engine sometimes probably won't help out a ton. Adding a splash just begs for more inconsistency. However, because you have 4 vials, it really wouldn't be that hard to splash just for bob, and fetches do have some synergy with grunt. You open yourself up to a lot of nonbasic hate, which is run quite a bit in the metgame right now, so I don't think it'd be worth it. (I suppose you could get a scrubland off flagstones though.) It'd be manageable, but I don't think it would really make the deck "better" overall.

Kuma

06-28-2008, 02:45 PM

The biggest reason I see in splasing black is simply because of Dark Confidant and the card advantage that he gives you (or the creature removal he soaks up). If you look at my list and remove Confidant, what white creature could possibly weight up the loss of Confidant?

I also think the SB gets better aswell since you now have discard against combo (I know you got True Believer in white but most combo decks can handle him). Plague is also available but not sure you need it vs. Goblins since you got Jitte but still, it's a choice.

And in my list I haven't cut either Grunt or Stonecloaker so I guess that point doesn't add in against me..

I suppose having some card advantage helps with the board control matchups. That said, your list seems slightly better against board control and storm combo in exchange for significantly weakening your Goblin and Ichorid matchups. You're probably hurting your Thresh matchup too, because you only have nine creatures who can trade with or kill a Threshed mongoose, and five of them require you to jump through hoops to be effective (Stonecloaker and Jotun Grunt). The other problem I see is that you have only ten threats that don't have stipulations or conditions attached to them, six if you count Isamaru being legendary as a stipulation. Most decks have enough spot removal to make your life miserable.

I don't know what your metagame is like, so in that light some of your decisions may be justifiable, but you solve all the problems by playing mono-white and running some solid creatures.

Tanarin

06-28-2008, 07:45 PM

Why do people insist on splashing in this deck? I would like it if some of the splashers read my post #270 and answered my questions.

I dunno, but I can testify to the fact that Cataclysm is the nuts in this deck. While most decks can deal with a WoG or an Armageddon, almost none want to see what equates to a big fat reset button hit the stack. I was actually in a game this week where I was down to 2 life against a UW Fish build and topdecked one for the win. What was especially nice was the fact that most of that game I was locked out of my Serra Avengers (Meddling Mage) Aether vial, AND Jitte (Both on pithing needles.) Once this hit the board he had to sac the Mage as I had a SotP out to block/kill it anyway and hope he drew a 2nd land for the Sygg he basically had to leave out in order to win. Thankfully he didn't and it was promptly karakas'ed next turn.

Melwis

06-28-2008, 09:38 PM

Ok maybe it's alot different for you folks because the truth is i'm not playing in any Magic tournaments whatsoever so I don't have to think about "a certain meta" or SB for that matter. Just tought I'd let you know :)

That said, your list seems slightly better against board control and storm combo in exchange for significantly weakening your Goblin and Ichorid matchups.

Engineered Plague has to help against Goblins no? And both Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker should be solid against Ichorid if you ask me.

You're probably hurting your Thresh matchup too, because you only have nine creatures who can trade with or kill a Threshed mongoose, and five of them require you to jump through hoops to be effective (Stonecloaker and Jotun Grunt).

Exactly what creatures am I missing that you could fit in a mono-white build that handles a threshed Mongoose anyways? If I get a Grunt out vs Threshold that should help alot because in 1 perhaps 2 turns that Mongoose is no longer threshed. Stonecloaker being an instant play could handle Mongoose right away should your opponent attack with 7 cards in his GY.

Still. If you're worried about Threshold and you think going black hurts this matchup I could see Spectral Lynx being a SB card perhaps?

The other problem I see is that you have only ten threats that don't have stipulations or conditions attached to them, six if you count Isamaru being legendary as a stipulation. Most decks have enough spot removal to make your life miserable.

This might be true but this has nothing to do with the splash since Confidant is one of the creatures without a stipulation/condition. Stonecloaker and/or Jotun Grunt could be cut down (but 2 Grunts MD is solid). I haven't felt this to be a problem yet but if I do I will probably think about trying to fix this a bit!

Wargoos

06-29-2008, 12:55 PM

And both Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker should be solid against Ichorid if you ask me

They do exactly nothing against Icho, Icho wins in 1-2 Turns.
Removing one Card is not enough GY Disruption. They will just go off, and ran the Grunt over.
Solid GY hate is the Samurai of the pale curtain.

Kuma

06-29-2008, 09:41 PM

Engineered Plague has to help against Goblins no? And both Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker should be solid against Ichorid if you ask me.

Sure, Engineered Plague helps against Goblins, but not nearly as much as Silver Knight and Tivadar of Thorn. Playing those cards makes you somewhere around 70/30 vs Goblins.

Exactly what creatures am I missing that you could fit in a mono-white build that handles a threshed Mongoose anyways? If I get a Grunt out vs Threshold that should help alot because in 1 perhaps 2 turns that Mongoose is no longer threshed. Stonecloaker being an instant play could handle Mongoose right away should your opponent attack with 7 cards in his GY.

Samurai of the Pale Curtain. Stonecloaker can be hard to use vs Thresh. You have to get another creature in play through FoW/CounterTop/Fire/Pyroclasm/StP/Whatever in order for Cloaker to be able to stick. Then you have to worry about all the same cards again for Cloaker.

This might be true but this has nothing to do with the splash since Confidant is one of the creatures without a stipulation/condition. Stonecloaker and/or Jotun Grunt could be cut down (but 2 Grunts MD is solid). I haven't felt this to be a problem yet but if I do I will probably think about trying to fix this a bit!

Well, the last time I played D&T at a tournament, I didn't win a game with it, so that may be coloring my perceptions a little, but having too many creatures with stipulations/conditions is a real problem for the deck.

Oh yeah, and Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker do next to nothing vs Ichorid. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is your best weapon, followed by StP on Ichorid and Cataclysm if you can live long enough to use it.

Cataclysm is reason enough not to splash, IMO. That card is a house.

CleverPetriDish

06-30-2008, 10:24 AM

Oh yeah, and Jotun Grunt and Stonecloaker do next to nothing vs Ichorid. Samurai of the Pale Curtain is your best weapon, followed by StP on Ichorid and Cataclysm if you can live long enough to use it.This is occasionally true. I have played against ichorid soooo many times. After quite a few I discovered that I was using my Grunts the wrong way. Rather than putting all the Bridges back in his library, only to come out again, just don't pay the upkeep on Grunt - let the Grunt die to remove them.

And Stonecloaker, coming out a turn later than everything else will be sitting in your hand in some games while a lot of 2/2 zombies crush you. It usually can not win you the game on its own, but combined with any other disruption even something bad like a couple of stp's or mana tithe or something can keep him off balance long enough to get going. I have found that when I get to turn three with a cloaker in my hand, if he does not already have an army it is all over but the crying.

Considering what I have said, you may be thinking, "okay, so Stonecloaker is bad since it sometimes does not work. Ima take it out." Same with Grunt. That would be a colossal mistake. The deck has no perfect cards. It has never had many dynamite matchups. What it has is a lot of pretty good matchups. Most decks with a god draw will beat D+T. But those same decks, along with all the others, will get bogged down by one annoying creature after another beginning turn two. None of those creatures end the game on their own. But there are always others. That is how this deck wins. Swapping out those annoying [disruptive] creatures for stuff like Mother of Runes or Phyrexian Negator basically unravels the deck's advantage in the long run.

CleverPetriDish

07-21-2008, 07:39 PM

Hey crew, I actually won a pretty big tournament with this deck yesterday. I plan to write a report soon.

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
2 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Stonecloaker
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Cataclysm
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

Sideboard
3 Glowrider
1 Oblivion Ring
4 Orim's Chant
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Cataclysm

The Seals are for mostly for Painter Combo. But I found them pretty good all day.

Xurcks

07-21-2008, 09:09 PM

Congratulations on your win! Good to see D & T back on top xD
Was there any situation that you think wasteland could be better than rishadan port during the tourney?
Also , i was trying runed halo in my deck in the place you are using true believers. What do you think of it?

Brehn

07-22-2008, 06:14 AM

I still have no idea why anybody would consider playing a Grizzly Bear for WW main. Can you give your reasoning on that?

Shawon

07-22-2008, 11:12 AM

I still have no idea why anybody would consider playing a Grizzly Bear for WW main. Can you give your reasoning on that?
I guess True Believer is MD'd because it gives the sb more space for additional needed cards and it's a better MD than all the other sb cards as it's still a creature and you can occasionally catch the opponent off guard with a Vialed True Believer in response to one of their tricks.

FoolofaTook

07-22-2008, 11:55 AM

I still have no idea why anybody would consider playing a Grizzly Bear for WW main. Can you give your reasoning on that?

Grizzly Bears give you shroud?

Brehn

07-22-2008, 12:03 PM

Grizzly Bears give you shroud?

A WINRAR IS YOU

So which matchups does this improve? Combo? Playing two random Believers shouldn't mean that you have a serious chance preboard. What else?

Volt

07-22-2008, 12:24 PM

Brehn

07-22-2008, 07:08 PM

Meh. I don't really care about Believer's strength against janky Sui Black with Edicts or janky Scepter Chant. Unless you're preparing your list for an extremely specific meta, in which these decks are very likely to show up, True Believer should not be considered mainboard material. Let's have a look at some of the decks that see play in more than 2 places in the world:

Threshold - Against UGw it's a Grizzly Bear that gets killed by Mongoose. Against UGr it's a Grizzly Bear that gets killed by Mongoose and prevents their Burn from hitting you - but usually their burn aims for your creatures anyway. Against UGb it's a Grizzly Bear that gets killed by Mongoose (and Bob, lol) and prevents them from playing Thoughtseize, which is neat, but doesn't justify an inclusion of Grizzly Bear. You'd never set a Meddling Mage on Thoughtseize against UGb Thresh, would you?

Landstill - Against every variant it's a Grizzly Bear that can't swing if there's a Factory on the board. Not disruptive.

Goblins - It's a Grizzly Bear. It kills every swinging x/2 Goblin, because that's what Grizzly Bears do. Nearly any other creature would do the same job. Not disruptive.

Aggro Loam - It's a Grizzly Bear that's smaller than their creatures. Not disruptive.

Ichorid - It's a Grizzly Bear that prevents them from Therapying you. Well, what Ichorid-disrupting spell might they get with Therapy? The Samurai which is sitting in your hand? Well, why didn't you just play Samurai instead of Believer? The Grunt in your hand? Why didn't you just play Grunt instead of Believer? That Swords in your hand? Ok... but why didn't you just cast it in response to the Therapy or even before? If they're able to resolve Dread Return for a Fattie they've won anyway.

Dreadstill - It's a Grizzly Bear that gets killed by Trinket Mage, lol. Not disruptive.

Survival - it prevents them from Seizing and Therapying you after turn 2. It might actually be a little bit useful here. Not sure though.

Summary: Look at these 7 decks, the decks that are currently the Decks to Beat/Watch. Compare True Believer to Leonin Skyhunter. Would you run Leonin Skyhunter? I guess you wouldn't. Well, against 5 out of the 7 best decks (exceptions are Ichorid and Survival) Leonin Skyhunter is almost strictly better than True Believer. That said: Don't play True Believer main if you don't know your meta in and out. If it really asks for it (Sui Black + Scepter Chant Oo), sure, play him. But don't recommend it to others just because it worked in your extremely specific Meta. It won't do its job in a general meta.

And actually, that's why I asked CleverPetriDish. The Top 8 of the tournament he won consisted of Dragon Stompy, Ichorid, 2 Threshold, 2 Goblins and Aggro Loam. Believer is not good in any of these matchups. But who knows - maybe he got paired against Combo twice and won these matchups because of Believer? That's why I asked.

Volt

07-22-2008, 07:35 PM

Brehn

07-22-2008, 07:51 PM

A significant percentage of any sizable tournament is going to be comprised of "jank" such as Sui-Black and Scepter-Chant. And Burn. And Belcher. And Tendrils combo in all its incarnations. Also, given the proliferation of Thoughtseize, True Believer is at least a minor nuisance to a lot of decks.

If True Believer would reliably beat the shit out of "random" decks, it would be ok. But with every "random" deck you name that he is good against, I can name another one that he isn't good against. Sui Black you say? Reanimator. Scepter Chant? Aluren. Burn (is he really good here? I mean, he's just a Healing Salve for WW)? Enchantress. Belcher? Meathooks. TES? Fetchland Tendrils? Welder Survival. Rifter. See where this is going? He is not even good against a huge portion of the more "random" decks.

And seriously, if there's no better card to take its slot and you start playing "minor nuisances" - there can't be a more obvious sign that says "SPLASH A COLOR, NOW". Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf both cost 2 mana. They don't require 2 mana of the same color. And they are better in quite some matchups.

Galroth

07-23-2008, 12:49 AM

Death and Taxes always is, and has been a meta-game deck. That is to say, many of the cards which make the cut are based on ones particular meta-game. At one point Silver Knight was a staple because of the omni-present goblins. Jotun Grunt found its way in to combat Threshold and Ichorid. The 2cc creature spot the is commonly vied for by True Believer, Silver Knight, Jotun Grunt, etc. does not host one particular creature that is head over heels better than all other options. Otherwise we'd probably have identified it by now (see Serra Avenger).

I know that if we had an identified meta this would probably not be an issue. As is, I believe the question stands at 'what creature is best in this slot for an undetermined random meta'.

I for one have several other questions which I place above this (though I don't want to spurn discussion over it... I just think the inclusion or exclusion of True Believer is a question without an answer until more information about a meta is provided).

More Important Questions:

1) Should Mana Tithe be maindecked?
2) Are Rishadan Ports (and Wastelands) required?
3) Is Oblivion Ring really that good; and if so, how many should be run?

All replies welcome.

Curby

07-23-2008, 03:42 AM

And seriously, if there's no better card to take its slot and you start playing "minor nuisances" - there can't be a more obvious sign that says "SPLASH A COLOR, NOW". Dark Confidant and Tarmogoyf both cost 2 mana. They don't require 2 mana of the same color. And they are better in quite some matchups.

Yeah, and they screw up your manabase even worse. There's been quite a bit of development on MTG Salvation, where the point was made that many cards in D&T are situational, and some will be suboptimal in any matchup. However, the strength of D&T is its flexibility, and the cards are in that deck for a reason. Sure, I've replaced True Believers with Protction Knights and Knights of Meadowgrain from time to time, but True Believer is a solid inclusion.

I do think it's funny that while one person's taking out Grunts for Believers, someone else is doing the opposite. :tongue: Regarding poor synergy, Samurai has a lot. As another example, casting Cataclysm with a Samurai and Flagstones in play kind of sucks.

CleverPetriDish

07-23-2008, 07:05 AM

So which matchups does this improve? Combo? Playing two random Believers shouldn't mean that you have a serious chance preboard. What else?Thoughtseizes were everywhere. He was certainly handy. But I still would like to have something more along the lines of Aven Mindsencer, Meddling Mage, or Grim Lavamancer. Thing is, most of the two-drops in here aren't turn 2 two-drops. He is.

Alfred

07-23-2008, 10:12 AM

I think Brehn is right here. There isn't much in this format that True Believer is good against. I think it's basically just decent against combo.

I think Knight of the Holy Nimbus is better, hell, even without black in the deck, I think Spectral Lynx is better.

Misobizo

07-23-2008, 10:50 AM

Alfred

07-23-2008, 11:08 AM

Hello,

about the things that have just been sais about grunt, believer and stonecloaker.

These appear indeed as the weakest slot in the deck...but in fact it is really they very heart and soul of this deck. They all provide unexpect solution and are much better in real life than on the paper.

What? If you can't explain how something is useful, then it just seems to me like "the danger of cool things". You see it work once or twice and assume that it's much better than it actually is. Think about the real decks and situations where the card you're talking about is going to be good, and go from there.

the advantages of each of them are well known so I won't develop any further.

What we're saying is that the strengths of True Beleiver don't match up with the current metagame.

I think spirit of this deck is not to put big pressure on the opponent and beat for the win. it is to be annoying, yet developing your game plan progressively and have original and unexpected answers to random problems.

The spirit of any competative deck is to have good answers to relevant problems that you could encounter, not random solutions to irrelivant problems.

Now you may think random is really too random. I think legacy is good because of this freaking damn randomness.

True Believer isn't broad enough to be a solution to random decks. As Brehn pointed out, even among the "random" decks, True Believer doesn't have a broad enough application to warrant inclusion. Also, if you're preparing for the crap decks, you aren't going to do very well later on in the tournament when you start facing real, actually decent decks.

Guy I Don't Know

07-23-2008, 03:17 PM

These appear indeed as the weakest slot in the deck...but in fact it is really they very heart and soul of this deck.

If a card is weak, replace it, even if it leads you to a different kind of deck. Having weak cards is never a good thing unless they are so synergistic with the whole plan that they are needed. For instance, in flash, sky hussar was a necessary weak card when drawing it but is included because it wins games. True Believer doesn't win games. It doesnt really do anything. A deck that it would be good against has answers to it, and the decks that it is good against are few. It is very metagame dependent, but i would look elsewhere for a better creature.

Misobizo

07-24-2008, 11:23 AM

I think your analysis is relevant, no doubt.

As I said before, metagame in Japan is special, probably not as mature as in other countries. Lots of pikula and combo.

Having maindeck protection against discard and most combo kills (millstone, belcher, tendrills) seem pretty decent to me. You have very few relevant card against combo game 1 and discard is really annoying because it ruins your "trick" strategy.

Of course, true beliver is VERY often sided out is a bear in many machup.

Still, replacement suggested for him (holy nimbus, pale curtain, lynx ....) are really not convincing....

Grunt is one of the best answer to all deck based abusing the grave yard and is a solid beater. I admit it is not so good against ichorid giving a free turn before it does anything. But against survival, goyf, loam deck...he is a house. Not to mention amazing synergy with cataclysm.

Stonecloaker is very versatile, difficult to count the number of situation is will save your ass as well as the many situation he is completly useless. But again, what replacement for him ?

So my point is : yes you can find better beaters. but it will weaken the overall strategy and versatility of answers G1.

marko

08-04-2008, 03:24 PM

I have see the last list of Finn. There is Flickerwisp inside. I think there is a great tricks between Flickerwisp, Aether vial and oblivion ring. What do you think of that new creature in D&T ?

Brehn

08-04-2008, 03:39 PM

Flickerwisp is a good example of versatility. Not like True Believer, which is only "versatile" (more correctly: useful) if your opponent is playing a very specific deck, but actually versatile because there are like more than 5 different synergetic interactions within your own deck (Mangara tricks, Oblivion Ring tricks, Jotun Grunt reset, Aether Vial reset, Cataclysm evasion, ...) and it also has savage interactions with some cards played in the format (Dreadnought removal, reset Vial/Smokestack, X for 1 against a gangblock, remove potential blocker, mana denial, ...). I'm afraid however, that the curve becomes too much top-heavy - but I might be biased since I'm absolutely used to playing 20 lands, whereas Finn plays 22.

Shawon

08-04-2008, 03:39 PM

I think there is a great tricks between Flickerwisp, Aether vial and Stonecloaker.

Fix'd :cool:

Finn

08-05-2008, 02:17 PM

I think he probably meant Oblivion Ring, Shawon.

1. Play Oblivion Ring.
2. With it's removal trigger on the stack (targeting, say, a Siege-Gang Commander), activate Aether Vial.

stack = 1. remove SGC (O-ring trigger) 2. Vial activation

3. Vial resolves. Vial in the Flickerwisp. Put its ability on the stack targeting your own Oblivion Ring.

stack = 1. remove SGC 2. remove O-ring (wisp trigger)

4. Flickerwisp resolves removing Oblivion Ring. Oblivion Ring's second ability goes on the stack.

stack = 1. remove SGC 2. return SGC (O-ring trigger)

5. Oblivion Ring's second ability resolves, returning the Siege-Gang Commander to play, which, of course never left in the first place - so nothing happens. (Technically, I think this ability gets removed from the stack, but the result is the same)

stack = 1. remove SGC

6. Oblivion Ring's first ability then resolves, removing Siege-Gang Commander from the game never to return.
7. At the end of your turn, Flickerwisp's delayed trigger returns Oblivion Ring to play, removing another nonland permanent from the game as normal.

@Brehn: Oblivion Ring and now Flickerwisp have really toploaded the curve. It sucks that way. But I did not have problems in the one tournament I played it in. It is certainly not a done deal, especially considering the problems this deck has with turn two. But unlike most things I try in that slot that usually just suck, this one felt like it gave me options. Has anyone else tried this out yet?

Kuma

08-08-2008, 01:23 PM

The more I think about it, the more I wonder how good Cataclysm actually is. Looking through the Decks to Beat and Established Decks forum, I was underwhelmed.

Goblins: Good, but this is already a great matchup. The deck is on the decline anyway.

Threshold: Bad, we side this card out here anyway.

Landstill/ITF/VoroshStill: I'm not very experienced in this matchup, but it seems good here.

Enchantress: Good.

Aggro Loam/43 Land: Great if you have a SotPC. Otherwise bad against Aggro Loam and middling against 43 Land.

Burn: Bad

The Rock: Bad

Dreadstill: Bad

MUC: Bad

Storm: Could kill Warrens tokens, but that would require you to live to at least turn 4. Bad.

Ichorid: Mostly bad, could be decent if they get a slow roll.

Am I missing something here, or does Cataclysm seem like a sideboard card? I think I'm going to try it there for a while. My meta is Landstill light anyway.

On another note, Flickerwisp is awesome.

Here's what I'm currently running in my Goblins, Thresh, and random metagame.

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
11 [UNH] Plains
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
4 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
SB: 3 [EX] Cataclysm

Brehn

08-08-2008, 01:46 PM

MUC: Bad

nonononononono. Resolve Cataclysm and you win. MUC needs to have lands in play to work. Cataclysm and Aether Vial are the key spells for winning this matchup.

But I agree that Cataclysm is a sideboard card, and if it's only because it's horrible against Threshold. Bad thing is that the Landstill matchup gets even worse without mainboard Cataclysms.

Kuma

08-08-2008, 02:18 PM

nonononononono. Resolve Cataclysm and you win.

The operant word there being "resolve"

There's no MUC or Landstill in my metagame anyway. Good to see someone agrees with me in principle though.

Finn

08-19-2008, 09:38 AM

I have some testing results on this deck.

I think I am likely to adopt Flickerwisp permanently. It is awesome with Vial and underwhelming without. So you can expect to be siding it out against a lot of opponents. I am not happy about the growing mana curve. It is getting a little out of hand. But damn it is fun when you have an active Vial.

Last night I found another use. I Vialed it in at oponent's eot and removed Standstill during my entire turn.

Anyway
I am doing better against Stax, Threshold, and Landstill at the expense of nearly nonexistent combo with True Believer out.

Here is the list I am using it in. Any good advice from experienced players of the deck about how to fight the mana curve problem would be appreciated.

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial

3 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4 Serra Avenger

3 Oblivion Ring
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Flickerwisp

3 Cataclysm

4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
11 Plains

sb:
3 Tivadar of Thorn
3 Glowrider
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Orim's Chant
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Cataclysm
1 Samurai of the Pale Curtain

Kuma

08-19-2008, 01:31 PM

I think I am likely to adopt Flickerwisp permanently.

Me too. Flickerwisp is the best thing to happen to D&T in a long time. I want to fit a fourth one in somehow.

It is awesome with Vial and underwhelming without. So you can expect to be siding it out against a lot of opponents.

I disagree. Flickerwisp is indeed awesome with with Vial, but it is hardly underwhelming without it. For a long time, what D&T has needed is more 3 power creatures with useful abilities, and Flickerwisp has two useful abilities (flying and blinking a permanent). I've ran the deck with Flickerwisps in a few tournaments, and Flickerwisp makes it much easier to beat down your opponent. There were a few games where his 3 power and flying won me the game.

Flickerwisp does so much even without a Vial:
- Resets Jotun Grunt
- Lets you switch an O-Ring target
- Nullifies Engineered Explosives
- Kills Dreadnought
- Resets opposing Aether Vials
- Lets you remove a tapped land so you can have an untapped land ready to StP
- Mold Cataclysm to your advantage
- Remove blockers for a turn
- Remove Counterbalance/Meddling Mage for a turn to resolve a key spell

When you count all the things he does with a vial, Flickerwisp is an amazing card.

I am not happy about the growing mana curve. It is getting a little out of hand. But damn it is fun when you have an active Vial.

I'm not sure the growing mana curve is such a problem when there are Counterbalances running rampant. The average mana cost of a card in my list, including land, is 1.25, and without land 1.97. That dosesn't seem like a problem to me, especially when we run 22 land and Aether Vial.

I am doing better against Stax, Threshold, and Landstill at the expense of nearly nonexistent combo with True Believer out.

I'm with you on this one. As long as your meta has 0-1 combo decks, you probably don't need the undersized True Believer.

Here is the list I am using it in. Any good advice from experienced players of the deck about how to fight the mana curve problem would be appreciated.

Your average mana cost is 2.18. I'd put Cataclysm in the sideboard, but that's the only major change I'd make to your list. My list makes a few other small changes that reduce mana cost.

lunar_eternal_blue

08-19-2008, 04:44 PM

Although somewhat meta dependent, I believe one thing that wins games for Death and Taxes is its 3 cc dodging counterbalance. Flickerwisp is an amazing addition to this.

I also agree with boarding cataclysms, unless your meta is heavy aggro (I know it's good against control, but it is hard to get it through). It's just worthless against threshold, which is too common to be trying to mainboard cataclysm. If threshold ever takes a plummet like goblins did, then I could see this returning to the mainboard, but as of now the SB seems like its new home.

Another side note about flickerwisp, it makes the deck even more fun to play :)

CleverPetriDish

08-26-2008, 04:37 PM

I have my Cataclysms in the sideboard. My thinking goes like this: if you put all your disruptive creatures in the main, you have no truly dead cards. You can always board some of them out in favor of stuff like Cataclysm later.

Is Flickerwisp really that good? It does not seem to do very much. Maybe I should read a few of the posts since I last logged in.

Volt

08-26-2008, 04:42 PM

The_Red_Panda

08-26-2008, 05:05 PM

The more I think about it, the more I wonder how good Cataclysm actually is. Looking through the Decks to Beat and Established Decks forum, I was underwhelmed.

The Rock: Bad

Dreadstill: Bad

MUC: Bad

Am I missing something here, or does Cataclysm seem like a sideboard card? I think I'm going to try it there for a while. My meta is Landstill light anyway.

On another note, Flickerwisp is awesome.

Am I missing something or are all of these a little off?
I'm pretty sure I'd love to resolve Cata against The Rock. Dropping them down to one land is going to be a huge boost, even if they have loam recursion (which I'm not sure they do pre-board). After that you can just go back to creature beats while they're trying to dig up more land.

As a Dreadstill player, who's friend plays D&T, I can tell you that Cata is bad news for us unless we have dreadnought or goyf on the table. If that's the case, You really shouldn't be dropping Cata, unless you have removal. If we don't have an active creature, the reset on our lands is pretty ugly. It's not really a GG setup, but it sure stings. While Dreadstill plays out a lot like thresh, remember that we still do the Factory\Standstill thing, and barring the GGnought hand, we try to play control in this matchup.

Kuma

08-26-2008, 07:12 PM

Every Rock list I've played against runs discard, loam, and big creatures. It's hard to talk about the Rock matchup, because there's like 40,000,000 lists out there, but I'm sure that most of them have two or three of those things.

How could Cataclysm possibly be good against Dreadstill? The deck only needs two mana to function, and has the biggest creature around. Your choices for Cataclysm are ridiculous. Dreadstill can keep a board like Dreadnought, Goyf, Counterbalance, Land. Or maybe Dreadnought, Top, Counterbalance, Land. Never mind that the deck is packed with countermagic, so even resolving a Cataclysm could be difficult. I also run 12 mainboard answers to Dreadnought (4 StP, 3 Oblivion Ring, 2 Mangara, and 3 Flickerwisp) with two more answers in the board (1 Mangara and 1 Oblivion Ring). If you don't have a beater or a counterspell by turn 4-6, you've done something terribly wrong.

I honestly think I'd rather have three extra threats vs. MUC than Cataclysm, but I'm pretty unexperienced in the matchup.

Finn

08-27-2008, 09:53 AM

I honestly think I'd rather have three extra threats vs. MUC than Cataclysm, but I'm pretty unexperienced in the matchup.Cataclysm is usually gg in this one. It makes their Shackles worthless, and it sets them back so much more than you.

There is one thing I really like about taking out Cataclysysm - sorta. Volt was saying that he has removed his Ports. I think I would do the same. Once you do that, however, you don't need to put in more Plains. You could

a. Put Mishra's Factories in. This seems like it would have some real advantage, especially in the now VERY hard Landstill matchups.
b. Splash into black. This is something I have always toyed with. Oblivion Rings could become Vindicates (no more Flickerwisp hotness with O.Ring - do we really keep O.Ring over Vindicate because of this?). But then you have the awesome 2-drop we have all been clamoring for in Confidant. I have a bit of concern about this with all the 3-cost stuff. Perhaps we could trim some of the pricier creatures. You also have some pretty nice options for the sb in Duress, etc.
c. Something I have not thought of yet.

Nihil Credo

08-27-2008, 01:00 PM

Or you could, you know, splash for Gaddock Teeg which is absolutely completely stone-fucking great in this deck, having massive synergy with Karakas and simultaneously filling up the hole against both combo and control. That you also get to run Tarmogoyf over the utility bear of your choice is just icing on the cake.

Or you could also go further. If one is willing to bastardize the mana base even more, there is a certain 3cc Legend which is pretty good at putting the beats on for a reasonable price. If I were to bring out D&T at a tournament right now, I'd go with the safer splash build, but I've also been trying out this list:

// Lands
4 [PR] Scrubland
3 [PR] Savannah
4 [PR] Windswept Heath
5 [UNH] Plains
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
3 [EVE] Figure of Destiny
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [PR] Tarmogoyf
2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [CHK] Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
2 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
2 [LRW] Doran, the Siege Tower

// Spells
3 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [PR] Cabal Therapy
3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
2 [AP] Vindicate

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg

The very small number of 4-ofs is completely intended. Some of them are awesome in singles and terrible in multiples, while not being critical to the game plan; others are just in testing, and running a mix of more cards allows me to test faster.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2008, 01:13 PM

Nihil Credo

08-27-2008, 01:23 PM

That seems more like 3C White Weenie with a few Karakas and Mangara thrown in. I'm not arguing whether or not that'd be better or worse, but certainly it gets rid of the frame that attempts to make this an actual unique deck.

Why not run Momentary Blink, though? Blue also has some other creatures that could be very powerful. Venser in particular screams to be used with Karakas.

What makes me like Karakas in the first place is that it's incredibly cheap for what it does. I've moved away from Stonecloaker because having 2W open to use it was terribly clunky and a blatant tell, and it made me vulnerable to removal about as often as it protected against it. But at least it worked great with Æther Vial, something Blink can't claim. Also, Blink does nothing against sweepers.

Also, if you want an SB slot that absolutely wrecks control, I recommend some combination of Karmic Guide and Reveillark. Either have potential by themselves, but together they make your board essentially Wrath-proof.
You mean Karmic Justice, right? That would be nice indeed, answering Deed and Wrath in one neat package. I've used Needle so far, but that card's purpose was hitting Deed and Explosives nine times out of ten anyway. Good pointer.

As for Reveillark, though, no way. A 5-6 mana card has no place in a deck with ~22 lands.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2008, 01:26 PM

No, I meant Karmic Guide. Ramp up to that 5cc slot on Aether Vial.

Nihil Credo

08-27-2008, 01:36 PM

But you'd need to ramp it up to five mana before the Deedhammer comes down, which looks unlikely. And it's even worse with Karmic Guide, since you need to play that one after the sweeper.

I think you might have stumbled upon something very very sexy for the Moat Stompy deck, though.

Finn

08-27-2008, 01:53 PM

@big creatures:Yeah, I think most players of this deck would agree that there is a real advantage to keeping the vial at 3 for most of the game. Unlike Goblins, which can up it to 4 and then 5 in successive turns because it is about to win with the creatures it drops, this deck is certainly slower and more controlling. That is, you have to activate the Vial over and over at 3.

@Worrying about Wrath effects: I don't. In fact, I commonly hold creatures back against some decks even if I do not fear Wrath simply because I am playing control with the creatures in play as they slowly beat. It's sort of a strange place to be, but the guys I am holding are meant to make certain that I maintain control if the ones in play are answered. Deed is often a different story because it takes out the Vial or Jitte along with the creature, thus removing my hold on control. This may change if I am to start playing without Cataclysm.

@Gutting the deck: I, for one, am not against this idea out of hand. As the format changes, so must its constituent decks. God knows I have looked for plenty of ways to get more mileage out of Mangara. But you really do sacrifice a lot to get there. So many of the guys we are running are of great utility. Now with Flickerwisp also, there are just buttloads of ways to deal with stuff. Sure, Doran is great, but he means you are in 3 colors (only 10 green sources btw, ouch) and you lose one more control element. And the only way you can even consider Tarmo is if you have Black and Green. He sucks in this deck with only white and green. So, you would be with Teeg and nothing else if you go just that way. This is why I am turning my attention to Black for the moment. Yet I still want to look at your 3 color version.

TheInfamousBearAssassin

08-27-2008, 02:47 PM

Moat Stompy

I am intrigued, and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

The_Red_Panda

09-01-2008, 12:04 AM

Dreadstill can keep a board like Dreadnought, Goyf, Counterbalance, Land. Or maybe Dreadnought, Top, Counterbalance, Land.

I can tell you that Cata is bad news for us unless we have dreadnought or goyf on the table. If that's the case, You really shouldn't be dropping Cata

Both of those cases have a dreadnought or a goyf in them. I said it was good when we didn't have creatures, not when we do. Not that it matters. Dreadstill really despises mana disruption, which to a degree cataclysm represents, that's what I'm really getting at. Our Factory Man-plan seems less awesome when all our lands are in the yard. It really doesn't do much vs. any of our other permanents, which you're correct in stating. But if we don't already have a goyf or a nought down, making us go to one land can really hurt. Even if Stifle-nought only costs 2, it still costs 2. Which is more than one. So as long as we don't have another land in hand we're off of most of our spells till we drop another. And if you happen to keep a wasteland to our dual (I'm unsure who chooses first, or when the choices are revealed) you can drop all our lands, and effectively screw us.

Has anyone considered a black splash with Maralen of the Mornsong? She makes just about every draw spell in the format suck, and shuts off dredge all on her own (though she's a little late for Ichorid. I'm more thinking of LFTL). She obviously kinda blows against combo, but turning off your opponents draw engines while easily setting up Karakas-Mangara seems pretty nice. Plus, who hasn't dreamed of vialing in that badboy in response to a brainstorm? Could be worth testing at least. With the black splash we get lots of other nifty tricks too (Duress, Thoughtseize, Extripate, ect). Lots of fun down that road.

Iranon

09-01-2008, 10:23 AM

I think too many things need to go right for Maralen to do something worthwhile. An opponent can usually get rid of her in their next turn, in which case we lost some tempo (or gained less than you would have otherwise if she came from a Vial).
If an opponent doesn't want to get rid of her, she naturally sucks.

Kuma

09-01-2008, 11:57 AM

Both of those cases have a dreadnought or a goyf in them. I said it was good when we didn't have creatures, not when we do. Not that it matters. Dreadstill really despises mana disruption, which to a degree cataclysm represents, that's what I'm really getting at. Our Factory Man-plan seems less awesome when all our lands are in the yard. It really doesn't do much vs. any of our other permanents, which you're correct in stating. But if we don't already have a goyf or a nought down, making us go to one land can really hurt. Even if Stifle-nought only costs 2, it still costs 2. Which is more than one. So as long as we don't have another land in hand we're off of most of our spells till we drop another. And if you happen to keep a wasteland to our dual (I'm unsure who chooses first, or when the choices are revealed) you can drop all our lands, and effectively screw us.

If I have creatures and Dreadstill doesn't, then I'm winning. I don't want to take an already favorable state and turn it into an even more favorable one, I want answers to Dreadstill's problem cards. I'd rather pack cards to answer CounterTop and Dreadnought, than play an overcosted Stone Rain. Dreadstill only needs 2-3 mana to function, and they can conceivably keep two lands after a Cataclysm by animating a Factory for their artifact. You could end up with essentially zero mana after Cataclysm, but the point of Cataclysm is to turn a bad situation into a good one, not a good one into a better one.

I'm not worried about your manlands, I'm worried about dealing with Dreadnought and CounterTop.

The_Red_Panda

09-02-2008, 12:35 AM

If I have creatures and Dreadstill doesn't, then I'm winning. I don't want to take an already favorable state and turn it into an even more favorable one, I want answers to Dreadstill's problem cards. I'd rather pack cards to answer CounterTop and Dreadnought, than play an overcosted Stone Rain. Dreadstill only needs 2-3 mana to function, and they can conceivably keep two lands after a Cataclysm by animating a Factory for their artifact. You could end up with essentially zero mana after Cataclysm, but the point of Cataclysm is to turn a bad situation into a good one, not a good one into a better one.

In the case that you have creatures and I don't, Cataclysm will essentially "seal the deal" by keeping me off the mana required to cast my blockers, so that you can finish dreadstill off easily. Yes, I realize this is turning a good situation into a better one, but dreadstill is very swingy. If we have stifle in hand and topdeck a nought no creature you have (barring mangara) is going to keep that dreadnought down. That's why it's important to cast cata. I would think of it more like a (weakened) armageddon than I would cataclysm in these cases. Cataclysm is actually helping you deal with our problem cards by keeping us off the required number of mana, not by forcing us to sacrifice them. I guess in the end it's still a situational card in that matchup, but I still don't think so poorly of them vs. dreadstill.

EDIT: In reading this I realized you're probably better off with just another spell to deal with Dreadnought, than using Cata to try and slow mana production. At the same time, I do like that Cata can get around CB pretty easily with a CMC of four.

In other news, Marlen of Mornsong was intended as sideboard material. I don't know if that came across right, but it seems like boarding her in against Solidarity/Anything with brainstorm could be nice. But Iranon is probably right, too few situations in which she's actually better than another creature. Although she would be somewhat difficult to deal with, condsidering she's black and karakas can bounce her. Still, probably only situationally great.

Galroth

09-02-2008, 08:32 PM

What's the verdict?

1) Cataclysm - Is this card finally relegated to the sideboard? Or is it still maindeck material?

2) Oblivion Ring - Has this become a standard for the maindeck? How many slots should be dedicated to it?

3) Mana Tithe - Sideboard material only? Or has this card lost its once maindeck status to no longer included anywhere?

Kuma

09-02-2008, 09:18 PM

1) Yes, unless your meta has a lot of Landstill, MUC, Random Aggro, Rock, and Enchantress.

2) Yes. 3-4 slots.

3) I see no reason to run Mana Tithe, sideboard or otherwise, unless you plan to be playing against a large amount of combo.

urdjur

09-10-2008, 07:37 AM

I second that Flickerwisp is awesome. Though a long term fan of Cataclysm, I first tried it in the board and liked the change, then modded the deck so heavily that I didn't even like it in the board anymore. Here's my monowhite version:

Mana (20)
4 Wasteland
4 Chrome Mox
8 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Nomad Stadium

1-cc (15)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

2-cc (11)
4 Samurai of the Pail Curtain
4 Serra Avenger
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3-cc (14)
4 Flickerwisp
4 Glowrider
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Pianna, Nomad Captain

SIDEBOARD (15)
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Auriok Champion
1 Maze of Ith
1 Kjeldoran Outpost
1 Gaea's Blessing

Card explanations:

Weathered Wayfarer: Was brought up previously in this thread. Allows a wasteland engine and 7 sources of Karakas (we drop the 4th legendary copy of course), plus a land toolbox and better mana consistency. Works best with moxen, vial, sacrificial land tricks and vialing flickerwisp on your own tapped land (also squeezes an EOT mana for StP) to always have "less" lands than your opponent. Easy to use turn 2, when D&T often has mana to spare. Using mangara as land destruction, this gives us 11 sources of targeted LD against landstill, loam (SotPC stops recursion), thresh etc. Together with the taxing of Glowrider, it makes Cataclysm obsolete as far as LD goes (exception: MWC such as rabid wombat, but see below). Removing Cataclysm changes the strategy and also means removing Stonecloaker, since you now have more reliable legend bounce and may want to flood the board at times.

Chrome Mox: The wayfarer synergy is noted above, but also allows for more explosive starts, including turn 2 Glowrider and turn 1 Thorn of Amethyst against storm combo. As you can see, this deck plays more like the fast aggro WW of old days (29 creatures, 3 being Anthem on legs), but keeps the broad spectrum disruption of D&T. The card disadvantage hurts less with 3x3 legends appearing in duplicates at times.

Glowrider: This may seem like an obvious main deck inclusion with 29 creatures, but there's more to it than simply "hurting other more". First, it keeps game 1 against storm combo from being an auto-loss, especially with chrome mox. Second, where D&T normally pre-empts a sweeper with Cataclysm, this now postpones it together with the wasteland engine. This deck has a fundamental turn of 4, making it faster than more standard lists, so postponing only for one turn can often be enough.

Pianna, Nomad Captain: I don't think she has ever been discussed? Obviously, a beater with anthem isn't first priority in the typical catch-all aggro-contral approach that normal D&T takes. Normally, the 3cc slot is also overburdened as is. I've found her to be great in this deck however, since I really want 3x3 legends (rather than 2x3) main deck to get a good use out of Karakas. Together with vial, mox, isamaru, samurai, avenger and jitte, you can really go for fast beatdown. Even turns wayfarer into a surprise beater in the mid-game.

Thorn of Amethyst: I went with this over Orim's Chant since I think the fit with the deck is better. The price I pay is being slighty slower against storm combo. 8 taxing effects + 11 LD sources = gg to most non-creature decks, whether combo or control.

Oblivion Ring: I put this in the sideboard since I think I have enough removal as is in the main. In this deck, Ring isn't really boarded in all the time though - I use it against creature rich decks with key enchantments/artifacts (goblins, FaerieStompy, affinity etc.) since the taxing effects don't work as well here.

Auriok Champion: Discussed before. I prefer her over Tivadar because she is useful against so many other decks too (burn, EtW, ichorid). Helps against the pure aggro MUs that are the most difficult (well built goblins and MBA with pro: W dudes).

Maze of Ith: Have you noticed how many decks running goyf can't handle lands? Also great agains Faerie Stompy and other equipment decks.

Kjeldoran Outpost: This is my answer to MWC like Rabid Wombat where wasteland won't work, and taxing alone might not be sufficient to win. Could even be useful against Landstill is you want something to do while waiting for him to break standstill (after you finish wasting his mana base with wayfarer that is).

Gaea's Blessing: I haven't encountered Imperial Painter yet, but if I do, I thought I could use a little extra protection since it's a good deck and all. You could put pretty much anything in this slot though. In fact, the whole SB is up for meta customization :)

So how does this compare to other D&T lists? The biggest problem with loosing Cataclysm for me has actually been mono-red goblins running Anarchy games 2-3. 4cc sweepers is typically not a problem for me, but I side out glowriders against goblins and the mono-red version is immune to wasteland.

Against all other decks where Cataclysm shined, I've found taxing + wasteland engine to be better. It's also a whole lot better in those games where catacysm didn't shine, such as threshold. Also, not having to factor in a sweeper that hits yourself into your game plan allows for the construction of a faster deck, while still having built in sweeper protection. The quicker clock helps against burn, combo - most decks really.

The lack of main deck Oblivion Rings makes the deck slightly less versatile, but I've really found that 3x Mangara and 4x Flickerwisp is all the generic removal I need (they are also 3cc and get past chalice or counterbalance just fine). Also, ORing can be countered while your utility creatures can enjoy vial protection, plus the Glowrider can make them 4cc if you stick them in the main.

Feel free to try out the list if you have some chrome moxen lying about!

saspook

09-10-2008, 10:13 AM

If you have the Wayfarer, why not Mox Diamond over Crome Mox?

urdjur

09-10-2008, 11:12 AM

You can't count it as a white source, but it does help keep your side of the table deficient in lands. That's about the only thing it does though. You can keep a hand of land + chrome mox, or - say - chrome mox + vial, but Mox Diamond would have you mulliganing instead. You could run it in addition to chrome mox, but then you'd have to cut creatures :/

smoky squirrel

09-10-2008, 11:22 AM

Running Moxen of any kind makes you even more susceptible to Pernicious Deed. And Deed is already a problem in the Mox-less list. Here is my list, I became third in the side event of the Belgian National Championschips:

11 Plains
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
3 Flagstones of Trokair

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Serra Avenger
4 Silver Knight
4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Mangara Of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Flickerwisp

Sideboard
4 Cataclysm
4 Orim's Chant
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn

I was very pleased with the list, and until Shards comes around (Awaiting those exalted cards) will not change a thing.

Mirrislegend

09-10-2008, 12:10 PM

Flickerwisp AND Stonecloaker MD? Seems like a little much to me. I would fear getting stuck with those guys in hand and nothing to bounce. Ripple effect of Deed or EE, which hurt enough as is.

smoky squirrel

09-10-2008, 01:06 PM

Flickerwisp is never dead, it can always be a 3/1 flyer for 2 mana. Stonecloaker flies too, and you just need another creature on the board. I play enough critters, so Stonecloaker almost never is a dead card.
Key to playing this deck is remembering that there are very cute tricks to be played, but mostly, you win with a Jitte'd flyer while removing something opposing with an Oblivion Ring or a Mangara, even if only activated once.

Mirrislegend

09-10-2008, 02:02 PM

Flickerwisp is never dead, it can always be a 3/1 flyer for 2 mana
How'd ya manage to do that?

Kuma

09-10-2008, 03:20 PM

Remove one of your lands with the CiP ability, thereby gaining an extra mana on your opponent's turn. It's not quite two mana for a 3/1 flying, but still...

urdjur

09-10-2008, 03:59 PM

I don't fear pern deed that much with 11 sources of LD and 4x glowrider in the main. It's not like he'll blow it up at 0 just to hit my mox :/ And if he leaves it on the table to await next untap, he risks getting it destroyed. If it's very common in the meta, I'd consider running Pithing Needle in the SB.

Maëlig

09-11-2008, 11:13 AM

Kuma

09-11-2008, 05:48 PM

Wayfarer is indeed a great choice, I have been playing it for quite a while now and must say I am very satisfied.

What does Weathered Wayfarer do except slow you down? You need to have less land than your opponent to use it's ability, which is contrary to where aggro decks want to be. You'll also draw toolbox lands when you don't want them leading to more mulligans, wasted turns, and moon/Wasteland vulnerability. On top of that, a 1/1 for W isn't an inspiring beater and can't really be counted as a threat.

Maybe your opponents don't "waste" their removal on it because it's a terrible card.

I still don't see why people are so excited about flickerwisp. A 3/1 flying with a marginal ability that gets better when you're already in a good situation (ie when you have vial @ 3) doesn't attract me.

Have you ever played with Flickerwisp? Being a 3/1 flier is kind of a big deal, and the useful non-combat ability puts it over the top.

Flickerwisp does so much even without a Vial:
- Resets Jotun Grunt
- Lets you switch an O-Ring target
- Nullifies Engineered Explosives
- Kills Dreadnought
- Resets opposing Aether Vials
- Lets you remove a tapped land so you can have an untapped land ready to StP
- Mold Cataclysm to your advantage
- Remove blockers for a turn
- Remove Counterbalance/Meddling Mage/Pithing Needle for a turn to resolve a key spell/ability
- Removes Maze of Ith to help you deal more damage

When you count all the things he does with a vial, Flickerwisp is an amazing card.

I'd much rather play mana tithe MD (yes, alongside oblivion ring) as an early-game surprise (considering the slowness of D&T compared to some of the most explosive decks in the format) and a tool against combo (a VERY bad MU now that TB left).

Mana Tithe?! Are you kidding me? Here's a piece of advice: PUNT THE STORM COMBO MATCHUP. Nobody plays Belcher, TES, SI, Fetchland Tendrils, and Solidarity anymore, and they're always going to be bad for us no matter what we run. Mana Tithe isn't even a good card against any of those decks. Death and Taxes is aggro/board control, and the last thing an aggro deck wants to do is pass the turn to maybe counter a spell.

To those who keep trying to turn D&T into a control deck, play Threshold instead.

urdjur

09-11-2008, 07:14 PM

About the mini land-toolbox I would add at least a single flagstones (even if you don't run cataclysm), move maze of ith to MD (it's rarely useless) and would remove nomad stadium (is it really usefull other than in the burn MU, where you won't be able to reach threshold in time?). I like kjeldoran outpost alot, but I wonder wheter a single mishra's factory MD wouldn't be better as a whole, without being as risky as the outpost.

Worthwhile considerations, but here's how I thought:
*LD in the format comes in Wasteland and Blood Moon effects. A plains is immune to both. Flagstones only to one. If you run Cataclysm, play Flagstones - otherwise, plains is better.
*Maze could be MD if you see lots of use for it. I'd probably take out one SotPC for it.
*Nomad Stadium is there because it sacrifices for a useful effect in the end game, allowing me to fetch another land (wasteland most likely) if I'm tied for # of lands. Against burn, you need an early Jitte or Auriok Champion from the board and/or delaying them with taxing effects.
*Outpost > Mishra too because it keeps the land total low. I suppose either could work well, but I think outpost does more.

Pianna looks nice, but it requires a creatures-heavy build, and I think this is not the way to go in the current format.

Unless you can protect important creatures against removal and have lots of utility in those creatures, for instance:
*Wayfarer = Wasteland #5-8, Karakas #4-7
*Mangara = reusable catch-all removal, potentially uncounterable
*Glowrider = potentially uncounterable Sphere of Resistance that is also a threat, can be vialed, and doesn't increase its own cost (like Thorn of Amethyst does).
The above aren't so much "creatures" as they are vialable disruption.

Also, the lack of evasion amongst your creatures makes Pianna too unreliable.

I have 8 fliers, 10 sources of permanent creature removal (6 of them reusable) and can bounce Pianna if a blocker is in the way. Flickerwisp can also remove a blocker if needed. That's plenty.

(a VERY bad MU now that TB left).

Why do people insist on believing that True Believer helps any combo match-up at all? Or that he helps against any deck at all except anecdotal crap like "this one time at band camp, my opponent had a scepter-chant lock and I managed to vial in True Believer while he was unlucky enough to not draw any removal at all, so that's why you should run true believer."

95% of all combo decks die a horrible death to taxing effects like glowrider and thorn of amethyst. Orim's Chant works well most of time too. Mana Tithe might. That's about it though, when it comes to generic answers (Rule of Law is great too, but you need acceleration like Tomb or Mox to use it before you loose it). And you need those, both because of limited SB space and because you simply cannot expect to draw the correct answer for each possible win condition. You need to hit them with the broad spectrum anti-combotics, or else they will play around it (only too easy with True Believer).

What does Weathered Wayfarer do except slow you down? You need to have less land than your opponent to use it's ability, which is contrary to where aggro decks want to be. You'll also draw toolbox lands when you don't want them leading to more mulligans, wasted turns, and moon/Wasteland vulnerability. On top of that, a 1/1 for W isn't an inspiring beater and can't really be counted as a threat.

I at least agree with the last part - Wayfarer isn't really a beater. I also agree that you shouldn't go overboard with the MD land toolbox. But it opens up the possibility for SB bombs and good use of those 15 card slots. Now, having less land isn't bad for an aggro deck if it also has mox or vial (or, you know, wayfarer). Having too much land isn't good either obviously, so Wayfarer allows for some flexibility there. Also, guess what - some decks will have more lands whether you like it or not, such as Landstill and Loam decks. Wayfarer will pawn these, being backed up by Vial and SotPC.

And in the match-ups where you don't want to use his ability and spend mana on something more aggressive, he's still a 1/1 for W that you can cast when you have nothing better to do.

On a side note, I think 4 is the correct number for Wayfarer, as landstill tends to force him as expediently as a turn 1 Vial if they can, or StP him immediately if they have any experience with the little bugger. Certain thresh builds hate him too. I also like having 7 possibilities to get Karakas running in the deck for the mid game (moar consistansy = bettar).

Maëlig

09-12-2008, 05:31 AM

What does Weathered Wayfarer do except slow you down? You need to have less land than your opponent to use it's ability, which is contrary to where aggro decks want to be. You'll also draw toolbox lands when you don't want them leading to more mulligans, wasted turns, and moon/Wasteland vulnerability. On top of that, a 1/1 for W isn't an inspiring beater and can't really be counted as a threat.
It can win the landstill MU on its own, which by itself should already be a good reason to play it. But as udjur said, it allows a nifty land toolbox which adds lots of flexbility and versatility to the deck, especially since it can function on low mana (with vial and such). Drawing toolbox lands (ie karakas, wasteland and flagstones, possibly maze and a man-land) isn't a problem since you already should be running most of these without wayfarer, and by reducing the number of karakas to 3 and of flagstones to 1, you actually DECREASE the inconsistencies in the deck by reducing the chances to be stuck with two. You could also mention the synergy with jotun grunt (which can be upped to 3 MD assuming you don't run SotPC since you play wasteland) which allows the lands in your GY to be fetched again.

Have you ever played with Flickerwisp? Being a 3/1 flier is kind of a big deal, and the useful non-combat ability puts it over the top.
Why is it that when you say you don't like a certain card in a deck people supporting it will either claim you didn't test it (or enough), or don't know how to play it? As I said, I have tested it and don't like it. I'm not saying it's useless, simply that I'd rather have something else in that spot. All the cases you have explained in which flickerwisp's ability is good (without vial) are either situational, or have a marginal impact on the game.

Mana Tithe?! Are you kidding me? Here's a piece of advice: PUNT THE STORM COMBO MATCHUP. Nobody plays Belcher, TES, SI, Fetchland Tendrils, and Solidarity anymore, and they're always going to be bad for us no matter what we run. Mana Tithe isn't even a good card against any of those decks. Death and Taxes is aggro/board control, and the last thing an aggro deck wants to do is pass the turn to maybe counter a spell.
Except the card isn't usefull only in those MU, but basically against any deck likely to win in the first 4 turns, and will still be usefull in the early-game in any case. Admittedly, it's not a GREAT card and it gets sided out quite often, but it's still a stonger MD option than flickerwisp imho. Oh and by the way, D&T has always been an aggro-control deck, don't start playing on words. Maybe what you meant is that you don't want to keep a land open for tithe during the opponent's turn, but between vial, wayfarer, stp and Lin (yes, I still run her), in my build you do.

*Nomad Stadium is there because it sacrifices for a useful effect in the end game, allowing me to fetch another land (wasteland most likely) if I'm tied for # of lands. Against burn, you need an early Jitte or Auriok Champion from the board and/or delaying them with taxing effects.
My criteria for running lands in the mini-toolobox has always been not to be burdened by them if I draw one at random. And actually, I think that's the case of nomad stadium. Overall, it's effect is just too marginal to justify the lifeloss and the vulnerability to non-basic hate. If you reach threshold against burn for example, I think you've already won (and in other case, the lifeloss can really harm you).
I'm still not sold on outpost / mishra, but what's for sure is that the former (if played) is SB material, while the former could be maindecked.

The above aren't so much "creatures" as they are vialable disruption..
I see your point, and this is indeed the thinking behind D&T as a whole. But it makes you even more vulnerable to DD/EE/deed, and you'll still often be stopped on ground by a single goyf (assuming you run out of removal), unless you're really capable of overruning him (but you're not goblins either).

Why do people insist on believing that True Believer helps any combo match-up at all? Or that he helps against any deck at all except anecdotal crap like "this one time at band camp, my opponent had a scepter-chant lock and I managed to vial in True Believer while he was unlucky enough to not draw any removal at all, so that's why you should run true believer."
Notice that I haven't been advocating for running TB. Imho, it's SB material at best. And yes, it CAN help against combo, although sometimes only a little, and sometimes not at all. But this and the fact that it's usefull in other cases (burn and discard mainly) makes it a possible SB option, depending on your metagame.

On a side note, I think 4 is the correct number for Wayfarer, as landstill tends to force him as expediently as a turn 1 Vial if they can, or StP him immediately if they have any experience with the little bugger. Certain thresh builds hate him too. I also like having 7 possibilities to get Karakas running in the deck for the mid game (moar consistansy = bettar).
We're really nitpicking here, and it might just be a matter of personal preferences, but I have been stucked with a second (useless) wayfarer often enough for not wanting to run 4.

CleverPetriDish

09-12-2008, 10:09 AM

Ima say something here about Flickerwisp - if I have a vial out set to three I would rather rip a Flickerwisp off the top of the deck than any other card. It is incredibly versatile when it comes in off the vial. Without a vial, it is not stupid good, but so what? It's an aggressive, cheap threat with a CIP effect that occasionally is quite good. I can't remember who said what here, but lemme just say that the person who says he does not like it after trying it out did not give it its due. I have been following Finn with this deck since pretty close to the beginning and I can tell you that this guy is the best advancement since Mangara.

urdjur

09-12-2008, 03:29 PM

nomad stadium. Overall, it's effect is just too marginal to justify the lifeloss and the vulnerability to non-basic hate. If you reach threshold against burn for example, I think you've already won (and in other case, the lifeloss can really harm you).
I'm still not sold on outpost / mishra, but what's for sure is that the former (if played) is SB material, while the former could be maindecked.
[...]
We're really nitpicking here, and it might just be a matter of personal preferences, but I have been stucked with a second (useless) wayfarer often enough for not wanting to run 4.

You might be right. Again, I'm not counting Stadium as a useful card against burn at all, I run it because I can use it to keep my land count low in the mid game and get some life to boot (so I can get wayfarer activations). Still, the life loss CAN hurt, and it's non basic.

I'm gonna try:
-1 Wayfarer (+1 to the SB for the landstill/loam MU)
-1 Nomad Stadium (no SB either)
+1 Plains
+1 Mishra's Factory
and remove outpost from the SB.

The mentioned synergy with Grunt is nice, but how often do you need to pull more than 4 wastelands from your deck, really? I'm thinking "never", if you can disrupt THEIR recursion with SotPC instead. Overall, I find SotPC has more synergy with the deck than Grunt, since there are so many RFG effects and permanents, so not many things go the graveyard even if you don't run SotPC. The samurai makes sure wasted lands and jitte kills go the same way as mangarad permanents, stp:d and ORing:d targets (plus creature trades).

I see your point, and this is indeed the thinking behind D&T as a whole. But it makes you even more vulnerable to DD/EE/deed, and you'll still often be stopped on ground by a single goyf (assuming you run out of removal), unless you're really capable of overruning him (but you're not goblins either).

Glowrider + recurring wastelands makes me LESS susceptible to deed and friends than typical D&T. And if a goyf player is holding it back as a blocker, you're doing something right. I can race most aggro decks with that list, plus 8 fliers (not to mention the removal) means that ground fat won't bog me down.

Hmm... I might even consider running a Blinkmoth Nexus over mishra in the main to get a fetchable flier just to carry a jitte to the dome. It's not like 1 power difference on a single dude will matter. But flying might.

Flickerwisp
[...]
I can tell you that this guy is the best advancement since Mangara.

Yup, I'd agree. It's even a more significant addition than ORing IMO.

Kuma

09-12-2008, 04:06 PM

It can win the landstill MU on its own, which by itself should already be a good reason to play it. But as udjur said, it allows a nifty land toolbox which adds lots of flexbility and versatility to the deck, especially since it can function on low mana (with vial and such). Drawing toolbox lands (ie karakas, wasteland and flagstones, possibly maze and a man-land) isn't a problem since you already should be running most of these without wayfarer, and by reducing the number of karakas to 3 and of flagstones to 1, you actually DECREASE the inconsistencies in the deck by reducing the chances to be stuck with two. You could also mention the synergy with jotun grunt (which can be upped to 3 MD assuming you don't run SotPC since you play wasteland) which allows the lands in your GY to be fetched again.

The problem with Wayfarer is that it's slow and conditional. It is ineffective when you're on the play and when you have sufficient mana. It does nothing the turn you play it, and it's incredibly fragile. Before you tell me "so is Mangara", Mangara is one of the weakest slots in the deck, but his upside of remove a permanent each turn is much better than maybe find a land each turn. I would never run less of my important lands because of Wayfarer, because like I said earlier, he's too conditional to rely on to find land. "Nifty land toolbox" sounds like danger of cool things. What does Maze of Ith do that StP, Mangara, and O-Ring don't do better?

Do you frequently have low mana problems? I rarely do because D&T runs 20-22 lands plus four Aether Vial. Wayfarer seems like overkill.

You know what really has synergy with Jotun Grunt? Flickerwisp. You don't even need an Aether Vial.

Why is it that when you say you don't like a certain card in a deck people supporting it will either claim you didn't test it (or enough), or don't know how to play it? As I said, I have tested it and don't like it. I'm not saying it's useless, simply that I'd rather have something else in that spot. All the cases you have explained in which flickerwisp's ability is good (without vial) are either situational, or have a marginal impact on the game.

Because I don't see how you can dislike a three power flier with a useful non-combat ability. The number one reason Flickerwisp is awesome is that it ends games quickly if unanswered. I've won more games due to it's evasive beatdown abilities than because of it's flicker ability. Of course the flicker ability is situational, but it's not the best thing about the card and there are lots of situations for it. At worst, you can leave one mana open and bluff StP. Every time. At worst.

Except the card isn't usefull only in those MU, but basically against any deck likely to win in the first 4 turns, and will still be usefull in the early-game in any case. Admittedly, it's not a GREAT card and it gets sided out quite often, but it's still a stonger MD option than flickerwisp imho. Oh and by the way, D&T has always been an aggro-control deck, don't start playing on words. Maybe what you meant is that you don't want to keep a land open for tithe during the opponent's turn, but between vial, wayfarer, stp and Lin (yes, I still run her), in my build you do.

How does delaying your gameplan one turn to maybe delay your opponent one turn help you win? Maybe you'll hit a key Lackey or Vial and screw the goblin player, but that matchup is already incredible. Combo is also a terrible matchup that isn't helped much by Mana Tithe. What other significant decks in the format plan on winning in the first four turns. Ichorid? You have a very narrow window in which to use Mana Tithe, and there's far better cards you could run vs. them anyway. I want cards that do something every time I draw them.

Control = reactive answers to opponent's cards, i.e. countermagic, StP.

Board Control = a strategy that create large amounts of card advantage by pro-actively destroying multiple cards with individual cards, i.e. Cataclysm, Pernicious Deed, Mangara Combo.

Fair enough, I did play on words, but I think D&T is closer in spirit to Rock, Landstill, etc. than Threshold in it's controlling elements.

I'd like to see your build, because I doubt you have enough threats to have a legitimate aggro plan. Trying to be reactive goes against the main gameplan of D&T which is beatdown.

smoky squirrel

09-12-2008, 09:57 PM

Just to address to the Mana Tithe issue. You can always play one Mana Tithe in your sideboard, and 'accidentally' show it to your opponent at the start of a match. You'll get the same effect as playing 4 main deck. Not that I condone this sort of thing, but I just want to say, once the surprise is gone, Mana Tithe is not that effective. So you could win one game on its back, then lose the other two because you relied on it too much. I am even contemplating just giving up on the combo matchup all together and remove the Orim's Chant. But I am too much of a wussy to do so...

Kuma

09-12-2008, 10:30 PM

I'm probably going to cut Chant for Runed Halo. It's still good against combo plus a lot of other decks.

Maëlig

09-14-2008, 09:24 AM

The mentioned synergy with Grunt is nice, but how often do you need to pull more than 4 wastelands from your deck, really? I'm thinking "never", if you can disrupt THEIR recursion with SotPC instead. Overall, I find SotPC has more synergy with the deck than Grunt
It does happen once in a while, actually. And you can also recur a needed factory or maze if it has been wasted or discarded. Also, grunt is much better than SotPC overall imho, if only for the fact that it eats goyfs all day long. SotPC is often only good to stop recursion effects, and therefore pretty situational (in run it in the SB).

Glowrider + recurring wastelands makes me LESS susceptible to deed and friends than typical D&T.
You really shouldn't count on your disruption to prevent your opponent from playing 3cc spells. It might be the case once in a while, but you should be concerned about the case in which it doesn't.

Hmm... I might even consider running a Blinkmoth Nexus over mishra in the main to get a fetchable flier just to carry a jitte to the dome. It's not like 1 power difference on a single dude will matter. But flying might.
That's a nice idea, I will definitely test it.

Mangara is one of the weakest slots in the deck
What does Maze of Ith do that StP, Mangara, and O-Ring don't do better?
Are you serious? You realize the main advatange D&T has over classic WW is actually Mangara?

What does Maze of Ith do that StP, Mangara, and O-Ring don't do better?
If I could play an additional fetchable stp/mangara/o.ring, I would certainly do so. Having alot of spot-removal is the way to go in the current format imho. Also, maze is great against any deck playing equipments (such as FS), in particular SoLS.
To finish on wayfarer, it's true that it's not a great card in the combo and the aggro MU. In almost every other case, I prefer it to isamaru as a 1cc creature.

About flickerwisp, I never said it was a bad card in general. I just think there are better things to do than making your curve substantively higher for a three power flyer with a situational ability, that's all.

I'd like to see your build, because I doubt you have enough threats to have a legitimate aggro plan. Trying to be reactive goes against the main gameplan of D&T which is beatdown.
I posted my list a while ago, it hasn't changed very much since then.

// Lands
12 [IN] Plains (3)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [DK] Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
3 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 [TSP] Children of Korlis
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [PLC] Mana Tithe
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 3 [ON] True Believer
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst (this is mainly to replace chant for budget reasons)
SB: 3 [EX] Cataclysm

Kuma

09-16-2008, 06:18 PM

Are you serious? You realize the main advatange D&T has over classic WW is actually Mangara?

I disagree. The main advantages we have over classic WW are versatility and the ability to play control/board control. Mangara is a part of this, but the real advantage we have is the ability to answer more problems. Between cards like Glowrider, Stonecloaker, Cataclysm, Tivadar of Thorn, Rishadan Port, Flickerwisp, and Mangara we have the ability to answer strategies like Loam, Ichorid, Thresh, Dreadstill, Combo, and Goblins much better than traditional WW.

For all the talk of using Mangara over and over to great advantage, I've only done it in one or two games in the dozen-plus tournaments I've played D&T. Most of the time my Mangaras are one and done or killed before I can use them. He's fragile, and you can respond to a Karakas activation by killing him, or you can just counter/kill him while he's sick. He's also not a combat threat, which is why I consider him one of the worst slots in the deck.

If I could play an additional fetchable stp/mangara/o.ring, I would certainly do so. Having alot of spot-removal is the way to go in the current format imho. Also, maze is great against any deck playing equipments (such as FS), in particular SoLS.
To finish on wayfarer, it's true that it's not a great card in the combo and the aggro MU. In almost every other case, I prefer it to isamaru as a 1cc creature.

So would I, but the problem is you have to run a subpar card to do the fetching. I agree with you on spot removal, but Maze of Ith is not spot removal. What you're saying is that Wayfarer is good against Landstill/Rock/MUC etc.? Could be, of those I'm only experienced vs Rock. Still, it would have to be amazing there, because it seems very subpar everywhere else.

About flickerwisp, I never said it was a bad card in general. I just think there are better things to do than making your curve substantively higher for a three power flyer with a situational ability, that's all.

I don't know what your definition of "substansively" is, but I cut Cataclysms for Flickerwisps. Most people probably cut a two-coster for Flickerwisp, and that's not substansive in my book. Besides, having three-costers helps you play around Counterbalance, especially when said three-coster can remove it for a turn.

You're saying "three power flyer" like it's a bad thing.

list

Wow, you run even less threats than I thought you would. If we define threat as a creature with two power and a useful combat ability (for the sake of arguing, we'll call creatures with more than two power threats even if they don't have combat abilities) you're running 12 threats, and three of them (Jotun Grunt) are only going to be threats some of the time (when graveyards are full enough to keep him around). I'd count Lin Sivvi as half a threat because she can search up other threats even though she only has one power. How do you kill people? Spot removal will buy your opponent turns and turns. For comparison, my list runs 22 threats, three of which are conditional (seven if you count Isamaru as conditional on account of his legendary status). Your list seems slow and underwhelming in the late game -- a bad combination.

morgan_coke

09-17-2008, 01:26 AM

Ethersworn Canonist seems like an ideal card for this deck. For reference:

1W
Artifact Creature
Players can't play more than one non-artifact spell per turn.
2/2

It's the right color, the right casting cost, and this deck doesn't play lots of spells in one turn unless you count vialing stuff into play. Also severely hampers Storm Combo. Seems like it completely takes over the True Believer slot in the maindeck (if you were still running him that is).

Works with equipment, Vial @2, and more. Just seems like exactly the sort of card D&T was looking for to shore up some of its weaker matchups. The 1W cc is also much, much more friendly to Port and Wasteland than all the WW cc's in the deck.

Maëlig

09-17-2008, 05:45 AM

Just to address to the Mana Tithe issue. You can always play one Mana Tithe in your sideboard, and 'accidentally' show it to your opponent at the start of a match.
That's actually a very nice idea, I like those kinds of jedi mind tricks. If I wasn't already playing mana tithe MD, I would probably do that.

I'm probably going to cut Chant for Runed Halo. It's still good against combo plus a lot of other decks.
Combo cares very little about runed halo. It's comparable to TB in this MU, except TB has the advantage of surprise by being vialed in response to the kill.

I disagree. The main advantages we have over classic WW are versatility and the ability to play control/board control. Mangara is a part of this, but the real advantage we have is the ability to answer more problems. Between cards like Glowrider, Stonecloaker, Cataclysm, Tivadar of Thorn, Rishadan Port, Flickerwisp, and Mangara we have the ability to answer strategies like Loam, Ichorid, Thresh, Dreadstill, Combo, and Goblins much better than traditional WW.
The updated versions of WW already run glowrider/thorn (in the SB), stonecloaker, cataclysm or armageddon and port/wasteland. Really, the one card (but certainly not the only one) that makes the biggest difference between WW and D&T is Mangara for sure.

If we define threat as a creature with two power and a useful combat ability (for the sake of arguing, we'll call creatures with more than two power threats even if they don't have combat abilities) you're running 12 threats, and three of them (Jotun Grunt) are only going to be threats some of the time (when graveyards are full enough to keep him around).
It seems that our definition of "threat" is not the same. For instance, isamaru, SotPC and silver knight (basing myself on the last list you posted) might be threats stricto sensu, but what do they do in front of an opposing goyf / terravore / stalker / random critter? In the current format, your creatures either need evasion or a useful ability (or be of comparable size to a goyf, but that's not an option in white) to be relevant on the field. Besides, what good is it to have alot of threats if you are to concede to a single board-sweeper? Especially since you will HAVE to over-extend to get past opposing goyfs...
Lin can be protected with karakas (possibly fetched with wayfarer) and has to be answered rapidly otherwise she overwhelmes the field with critters protected from the most common mass removal in the format (deed, EE, DD). The CoK soft-lock is better than the spore-frog + genesis one in many cases (can be played as an instant and relevant against burn, although vulnerable to spot-removal), and can transform itself into a hard-lock against ichorid (removing bridges every turn) and tendrils-based combo if you manage to slow them down for a few turns.

Ethersworn Canonist seems like an ideal card for this deck. For reference:

1W
Artifact Creature
Players can't play more than one non-artifact spell per turn.
2/2

It's the right color, the right casting cost, and this deck doesn't play lots of spells in one turn unless you count vialing stuff into play. Also severely hampers Storm Combo. Seems like it completely takes over the True Believer slot in the maindeck (if you were still running him that is).

Works with equipment, Vial @2, and more. Just seems like exactly the sort of card D&T was looking for to shore up some of its weaker matchups. The 1W cc is also much, much more friendly to Port and Wasteland than all the WW cc's in the deck.
That does indeed look interesting. Invaluably better than TB against storm-combo, at least (although more restricted in its appliations). Probably not MD material, but I will certainly be testing it in the SB replacing TB.

Kuma

09-17-2008, 03:56 PM

Combo cares very little about runed halo. It's comparable to TB in this MU, except TB has the advantage of surprise by being vialed in response to the kill.

Why are you so pre-occupied with the combo matchup? Runed Halo may not win it on its own, but it has numerous applications beyond the combo matchup. I'll bet you'd resolve a Runed Halo vs. combo way more often than you'd vial in a True Believer.

The updated versions of WW already run glowrider/thorn (in the SB), stonecloaker, cataclysm or armageddon and port/wasteland. Really, the one card (but certainly not the only one) that makes the biggest difference between WW and D&T is Mangara for sure.

Some lists probably run those cards. The WW lists I've seen and played against run Armageddon and maybe Wasteland out of the cards I listed. Do you often abuse Mangara to great advantage?

It seems that our definition of "threat" is not the same. For instance, isamaru, SotPC and silver knight (basing myself on the last list you posted) might be threats stricto sensu, but what do they do in front of an opposing goyf / terravore / stalker / random critter? In the current format, your creatures either need evasion or a useful ability (or be of comparable size to a goyf, but that's not an option in white) to be relevant on the field.

So a creature has to be able to deal with goyf/Terravore/Tombstalker to be a threat? Isamaru can chump a goyf all day with Karakas out, SotPC makes goyfs and Terravores smaller, and Tombstalker harder to cast. Silver Knight doesn't do much to those creatures, but is great vs Goblins, Burn, Aggro Loam, and Red Thresh.

As for evasion or a useful ability, I think every creature in my list has one or the other. I don't get what you're saying.

By your definition of "threat" Goblins doesn't run any threats. Yet it is a DtB, and a fast and powerful deck. When you run numerous threats backed with disruption, you often win games before your opponent can stabilize their board. Death and Taxes does that well, while maintaining a good mid and late game plan on the backs of Mangara, Stonecloaker, Jotun Grunt, and Cataclysm.

Besides, what good is it to have alot of threats if you are to concede to a single board-sweeper? Especially since you will HAVE to over-extend to get past opposing goyfs...
Lin can be protected with karakas (possibly fetched with wayfarer) and has to be answered rapidly otherwise she overwhelmes the field with critters protected from the most common mass removal in the format (deed, EE, DD). The CoK soft-lock is better than the spore-frog + genesis one in many cases (can be played as an instant and relevant against burn, although vulnerable to spot-removal), and can transform itself into a hard-lock against ichorid (removing bridges every turn) and tendrils-based combo if you manage to slow them down for a few turns.

Running lots of creatures also helps you recover from board sweepers. Decks with board sweepers tend to run few creatures, allowing you to pressure them with only two or three creatures. You don't overextend. This is basic magic strategy.

You don't have to overextend to get around goyfs. You can remove them with StP, O-Ring, and Mangara, shrink them with Stonecloakers and Grunts, fly over them, or use Jitte to be bigger.

Your list is better than mine against board sweepers, I'll give you that. But I think you're worse just about everywhere else. While we're on the subject, Flickerwisp is also great vs. EE.

Stonecloaker, SotPC, and Jotun Grunt are already awesome vs. Ichorid. Besides, establishing CoK lock seems too slow to hurt Ichorid most of the time.

smoky squirrel

09-17-2008, 04:58 PM

Playing carefully against board sweepers also helps against them. Since the introduction of Flickerwisp, this is actually easier, since two fliers are usually a decent clock against decks that resort to sweepers. You don't need to cast more creatures.

I also have to agree with Kuma on just giving up the dedicated combo matchup. For now I will indeed switch out the Chants for Runed Halo (very good card). And maybe after shards, that new anti combo creature sounds great, in its place.

Maëlig

09-18-2008, 04:06 AM

OK, this is getting nowhere. I think we'll never fully understand each other's point of view, because we have a different vision of D&T as a whole. I see it more as an aggro-control deck, while you see it as an aggro with disruption and board control kind of deck. Is that right?

Why are you so pre-occupied with the combo matchup? Runed Halo may not win it on its own, but it has numerous applications beyond the combo matchup.
I never said I was, simply that the saying "halo is about as good against combo as chant is" isn't true.

I'll bet you'd resolve a Runed Halo vs. combo way more often than you'd vial in a True Believer.
You know you can also PLAY TB? The vialing in and the body (to increase the clock) is only a bonus over runed halo in the combo MU.
But you're right that halo has generally more applications and overall isn't a bad SB card. Only it does very little in the combo MU.

So a creature has to be able to deal with goyf/Terravore/Tombstalker to be a threat?
In aggro-control, I'd tend to say yes (or have evasion or a relevant ability, again).

SotPC makes goyfs smaller
That's a legend. SotPC does practicaly nothing against goyf, contrarily to grunt. The only thing SotPC is good against is recursion in the form of a waste-lock, ichorids or whatever.

By your definition of "threat" Goblins doesn't run any threats. Yet it is a DtB, and a fast and powerful deck.
Except goblins is pure aggro (with mana-denial and resiliency), and can easily overwhelm the board while recovering quite fast from a board sweeper. I don't think D&T can do this, at least not as good as goblins, while still getting all the hate if you go for a more aggro-ish build.

Stonecloaker, SotPC, and Jotun Grunt are already awesome vs. Ichorid. Besides, establishing CoK lock seems too slow to hurt Ichorid most of the time.
Stonecloaker is almost useless against ichorid (removing 1 card a turn for three mana, yepee), and grunt is usually too slow. SotPC is the main hoser in this MU. Without it, it's almost unwinnable. But it's not a piece of cake even with it (hello firestorm).

Kuma

09-18-2008, 02:08 PM

OK, this is getting nowhere. I think we'll never fully understand each other's point of view, because we have a different vision of D&T as a whole. I see it more as an aggro-control deck, while you see it as an aggro with disruption and board control kind of deck. Is that right?

Pretty much.

You know you can also PLAY TB? The vialing in and the body (to increase the clock) is only a bonus over runed halo in the combo MU.
But you're right that halo has generally more applications and overall isn't a bad SB card. Only it does very little in the combo MU.

Of course you can also cast True Beleiver. Casting True Believer vs combo is as "useless" as casting Runed Halo. My point is that Runed Halo's application in other matchups far outweighs being able to vial in True Believer vs. combo once in a blue moon. It sounds like you agree with me.

That's a legend. SotPC does practicaly nothing against goyf, contrarily to grunt. The only thing SotPC is good against is recursion in the form of a waste-lock, ichorids or whatever.

He helps keep Artifact, Enchantment, Creature, and Land out of the yard, but in general, you're right. However, I have had games where he kept goyf manageable.

Except goblins is pure aggro (with mana-denial and resiliency), and can easily overwhelm the board while recovering quite fast from a board sweeper. I don't think D&T can do this, at least not as good as goblins, while still getting all the hate if you go for a more aggro-ish build.

D&T is slower than Goblins, but more versatile. That's how I see it, and D&T tends to outperform Goblins in my meta.

Stonecloaker is almost useless against ichorid (removing 1 card a turn for three mana, yepee), and grunt is usually too slow. SotPC is the main hoser in this MU. Without it, it's almost unwinnable. But it's not a piece of cake even with it (hello firestorm).

Stonecloaker isn't the greatest card vs Ichorid, but it can help. I used to think Jotun Grunt was bad vs. Ichorid, but he becomes a lot better when you realize you can choose not to pay his cumulative upkeep to remove bridges.

loop

09-18-2008, 02:46 PM

He helps keep Artifact, Enchantment, Creature, and Land out of the yard
I think the odds of your opponent not having fetched by the time you land Samurai are quite small. Besides, your own Vial/Jitte and o. rings can be discarded / countered, so it doesn't even guarantee to keep those 2 types out of the yard. I get what you mean, it may happen once in a while, but you can't rely on it and REALLY can't bring it up as an arguement for SotPC.
Anyway, I think he belongs in the sideboard, honestly, since he doesn't do much against most decks.

Stonecloaker isn't the greatest card vs Ichorid, but it can help. I used to think Jotun Grunt was bad vs. Ichorid, but he becomes a lot better when you realize you can choose not to pay his cumulative upkeep to remove bridges.
I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the 'normal' use of Grunt was bad against Ichorid (you seem to imply it's too slow, right?), but that Stonecloaker 'can help'. Grunt removes 2 cards by turn 3, and then 2 more each time while Stonecloaker nails one/turn starting turn 3.
Besides, the way I see it, sac'ing him to remove Bridges doesn't seem like a great tech: if you're still alive by turn 3 they're probably slow playing (subpar hand), in which case removing 2+X cards/turn to lock them out of the game seems fine (starting with 2 Bridges if you're afraid of tokens; again, if you're still alive by turn3 it implies a rather slow start, so more than 2 Bridges is unlikely), or have already flashbacked Therapy for lots of tokens. Either way, it doesn't seem great.

Wargoos

09-18-2008, 04:17 PM

It's the right color, the right casting cost, and this deck doesn't play lots of spells in one turn unless you count vialing stuff into play. Also severely hampers Storm Combo. Seems like it completely takes over the True Believer slot in the maindeck (if you were still running him that is).

I think the guy takes the Glowrider slots as well and makes more space in the side. What do you think?

Kuma

09-18-2008, 04:58 PM

I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that the 'normal' use of Grunt was bad against Ichorid (you seem to imply it's too slow, right?), but that Stonecloaker 'can help'. Grunt removes 2 cards by turn 3, and then 2 more each time while Stonecloaker nails one/turn starting turn 3. Besides, the way I see it, sac'ing him to remove Bridges doesn't seem like a great tech: if you're still alive by turn 3 they're probably slow playing (subpar hand), in which case removing 2+X cards/turn to lock them out of the game seems fine (starting with 2 Bridges if you're afraid of tokens; again, if you're still alive by turn3 it implies a rather slow start, so more than 2 Bridges is unlikely), or have already flashbacked Therapy for lots of tokens. Either way, it doesn't seem great.

What I meant was that Grunt's upkeep can be good vs Ichorid, but against faster starts, you're usually better off just letting him die to zap Bridges.

Ichorid, on average, kills turn 3.something if left unmolested, so you'll likely still be alive by turn three, even if you didn't do anything to them early. For all the talk of turn one kills, it doesn't happen often, especially as the deck adapts to deal with hate.

Mordel

09-18-2008, 07:33 PM

I'm going to be the random guy that generally reads without saying anything, but I have to cast in my vote on Samurai being far better than grunt in the dredge match. The reason being that samurai outright solves a situation unconditionally unless he is killed, period. Grunt will penalize a slow hand and have the conditional use of removing a bridge and the cost of saccing...Perhaps I missed something, but I fail to see why the merits of either card are being argued because Maëlig runs both.

The only card I see as suspect to any sort of debate is stonecloaker, which performs the a similar function as grunt in the dredge match(aka: penalizing a slow start). As far as overall utility is concerned grunt will empty a graveyard faster and allows you to do the really rare wayfarer+wasteland recycling thing if things actually move in that direction...which they do pretty rarely in my realm of experience.

Stonecloaker could fit in some metagames, I suppose, but they seem strictly inferior to other options for a build that intends to go against a largely undefined metagame.

That's just what I think though.

loop

09-18-2008, 09:04 PM

Ichorid, on average, kills turn 3.something if left unmolested, so you'll likely still be alive by turn three
Arguing over the average kill turn is pointless. What I meant was that if there's actually a threatening number of Bridges in their 'yard, the damage is probably done already, since you can't remove them at instant speed, so they can just flashback Therapies to produce tokens during their turn, and pass. You'll remove Bridges but that won't save you from the tokens.

My point being: Grunt is probably at its best to fight off slow hands from Ichorid, and seal the deal; removing dredgers/ichorids, and preventing them from getting their engine going. It's NOT an answer to Bridges, it's too slow/not instant speed.

I have to cast in my vote on Samurai being far better than grunt in the dredge match.
I'm sorry, but has ANYONE said otherwise? It's obvious that Samurai is king against Ichorid, it's in this MU that it shines most.

I fail to see why the merits of either card are being argued because Maëlig runs both.
Maybe you should read the thread before replying. Kuma argued that SotPC, Grunt and Stonecloaker were good against Ichorid and Maelig answered that Stonecloaker was meh at best in this MU. Kuma replied that Stonecloaker was a bit useful but that he thought Grunts didn't help much except to remove Bridges, and I found that weird. Hence the discussion.
The fact that Maelig runs Samurai too doesn't mean we shouldn't try to evaluate the other creatures' value in this match up, does it?

Stonecloaker could fit in some metagames, I suppose, but they seem strictly inferior to other options for a build that intends to go against a largely undefined metagame.
Stonecloaker isn't in the deck to fight Ichorid or Breakfast. And it's not competing with Grunt or Samurai for the slot, what are you on about? It's a good all around utility creature, period. (Mangara bounce, combat tricks, save a creature from removal, etc.)

whitescorpion

09-19-2008, 08:22 AM

I tried Eijango Castle from Kamigawa vs the burn matchup, can potentially force them to overextend vs isamaru and mangara. Mostly Isamaru, since they woudl at that point need to fireblast him.

Kuma

09-19-2008, 01:20 PM

Burn doesn't care about your creatures. Burn aims all its burn at you until you force it to do otherwise.

I went 4-0-1 Wednesday with Death and Taxes only to lose to Burn in the first round of the playoffs, ending with no store credit. I beat EPIC Painter, a Uwg Painter list, Rbg Goblins, and WG LoamSlide. I drew into finals with White Weenie.

Burn is a sucky matchup for D&T, as they're usually a little bit faster. You need a Jitte or a really fast hand to have a prayer. Sideboarding should be something like -4 StP, -2 Mangara, +3 Tivadar, +3 Jotun Grunt. If you're sure they don't have Pithing Needles, you can side out O-Rings for Runed Halos.

Mordel

09-19-2008, 01:25 PM

Maybe you should read the thread before replying. Kuma argued that SotPC, Grunt and Stonecloaker were good against Ichorid and Maelig answered that Stonecloaker was meh at best in this MU. Kuma replied that Stonecloaker was a bit useful but that he thought Grunts didn't help much except to remove Bridges, and I found that weird. Hence the discussion.
The fact that Maelig runs Samurai too doesn't mean we shouldn't try to evaluate the other creatures' value in this match up, does it?

I actually have read almost every single page of the thread, thanks.

If you actually read their debate thoroughly as someone that pays attention to syntax and so forth, it seems that the concern that was/is central to debate is the comparison of the two creatures' utility. I suppose I could have read a number of replies wrong though (NOT sarcasm) ?

While stone cloaker has utility in little tricks and his cip effect, I think he falls into a similar role as flickerwisp, though their direct uses do very obviously.
They still belong to a three mana evasion/utility/beater slot. There is nothing wrong with running either necessarily, but as far as my preferences with the deck's creature roster, I prefer to have a more streamlined build, as opposed to extra random utility.

I am just stating my opinion here based off of builds of the deck that I have played around with. I have found that lists that are akin to Maelig's most recently posted list suit my needs better which is against a largely undefined metagame, where dragon stompy and random homebrews show up a lot. For what it is worth, the stonecloaker/flickerwisp would be very nice in matches where Mangara tricks get disrupted by wastelands and their ilk...maybe I'll squeeze some of either into my sideboard for that reason.

Finn

09-19-2008, 02:29 PM

Hey ppl. I am kinda excited about the Ethersworn Canonist. The short version is that I figure we will all be using this chick over:

Glowrider
Amethyst thingie
Runed Halo

Initially I had been thinking that she is a sb card only, but for anyone taking out Cataclysm, she has to look tempting in the contentious 2cc slot since Flickerwisp is head and shoulders better than True Believer.

@Kuma: I think it would be a mistake to take out STP while leaving O.Rings in against Burn. Certainly the matchup has gone downhill with the last few changes.

@Whitescorpion: I would not waste my time with the Castle. Karakas does more for us, and having a lot of basic lands is a big plus.

Opening post partially updated.

Kuma

09-19-2008, 03:36 PM

@Kuma: I think it would be a mistake to take out STP while leaving O.Rings in against Burn. Certainly the matchup has gone downhill with the last few changes.

Why? StPing your own creature postpones losing, but doesn't help you turn the corner. O-Rings are useful for removing Cursed Scrolls and Pithing Needles on Jitte.

I'll give you that there's the odd situation where you have enough damage on the board to kill them plus a litle extra, and you need to turn some of it into life to swing for the kill. But is that more often then needing to zap a Needle or Scroll, etc.

I don't think Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp serve the same purpose, because I don't think the term "three mana evasion/utility/beater slot" is useful. Stonecloaker protects your creatures from removal, does cute things with Mangara, swings tempo, and removes problem cards in the graveyard.

Flickerwisp only does the first two if you have a vial at three, and doesn't do the second two at all. Flickerwisp's primary role is beatdown, its secondary role is random utility like I've outlined earlier. I see no reason to have to pick one or the other.

I wouldn't take Maelig's list into an unknown metagame. His list is fine-tuned for Landstill, Rock, and Combo, and I'd run his list in a meta made of those decks. But I feel like my list is better suited to beat random decks, because it has more options.

Mantis

09-19-2008, 04:13 PM

The Canonist doesn't look like a mainboard card. It only looks good against combo and to lesser extent Aggro Loam.
But anyway it's a 2/2 creature with a quite relevant ability, and while usually not gamebreaking it can hurt the gameplan of some decks.

loop

09-19-2008, 06:15 PM

Initially I had been thinking that she is a sb card only
I think they could be quite good in the main. I mean, aren't they overall more useful than Samurais, for example? I could see myself maindecking 3, with the last one in the board, and having all 4 Samurais in the SB.

O-Rings are useful for removing Cursed Scrolls and Pithing Needles on Jitte.
Wouldn't burn deal with the jitte with removal like Spree or Smash to Smithereens most of the time anyway?

I don't think Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp serve the same purpose, because I don't think the term "three mana evasion/utility/beater slot" is useful. Stonecloaker protects your creatures from removal, does cute things with Mangara, swings tempo, and removes problem cards in the graveyard.
Yup, I totally agree :)

The Canonist doesn't look like a mainboard card. It only looks good against combo
Obviously it should be good against combo, but I see it more as some kind of anti-tempo card, so it should also be good against Thresh and other tempo driven decks. As I said, it's probably useful against more decks than Samurai which only really hurts Ichorid, don't you think?

Maëlig

09-20-2008, 04:13 AM

Burn is a sucky matchup for D&T, as they're usually a little bit faster. You need a Jitte or a really fast hand to have a prayer. Sideboarding should be something like -4 StP, -2 Mangara, +3 Tivadar, +3 Jotun Grunt. If you're sure they don't have Pithing Needles, you can side out O-Rings for Runed Halos.
I've always found burn to be a favorable MU, as you have quite a few valuable options against it. The Lin+CoK soft-lock helps alot in this MU, as does TB post-board (yes, I still think he's decent in the SB). I wouldn't side out stp, you can always use it in response to a burn on TB or a jitted creature, or even a grunt that is about to die. It's also a time-walk (sometimes two) in the face of the opponent, which can give you time to kill.

I think they could be quite good in the main. I mean, aren't they overall more useful than Samurais, for example? I could see myself maindecking 3, with the last one in the board, and having all 4 Samurais in the SB.
Canonist would certainly be better than SotPC MD, if only for the thresh MU. But I think its place is in the SB, as is SotPC.

Mantis

09-20-2008, 04:22 AM

First of all, I haven't tested this deck extesively like most of the posters here have, so if I'm completely off just tell me. Otherwise, an outsider can sometimes give some valuable information you wouldn't notice as it's common to fall in love with a deck and therefore lose objectivity.

Obviously it should be good against combo, but I see it more as some kind of anti-tempo card, so it should also be good against Thresh and other tempo driven decks. As I said, it's probably useful against more decks than Samurai which only really hurts Ichorid, don't you think?
Yes, I agree. I wasn't familiar with the deck, but it just seems that running a 2/2 vanilla (because that's what it is in a lot of matchups) in general looks kind of bad. I don't see Samurai in Maeligs list either, Knight of the Holy Nimbus seems much better for starters.

Although the card is testworthy my gut tells me it's bad. But hey, give it a shot and if it works out that's great, if it doesn't there are plenty of other good options available.

CleverPetriDish

09-20-2008, 08:52 AM

I proxied for Canonist last night and tried it out against Goblins and Thresh. And I hated it.

It acts like a Standstill, and it gets in the way of tricks with Stonecloaker and Karakas. I would have preferred a Gizzly Bear.

Kuma

09-20-2008, 11:52 AM

I've always found burn to be a favorable MU, as you have quite a few valuable options against it. The Lin+CoK soft-lock helps alot in this MU, as does TB post-board (yes, I still think he's decent in the SB). I wouldn't side out stp, you can always use it in response to a burn on TB or a jitted creature, or even a grunt that is about to die. It's also a time-walk (sometimes two) in the face of the opponent, which can give you time to kill.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't establish the lock any earlier than turn three, and not likely until turn four or five. It requires Lin and four lands. If I'm playing burn, I just bolt your Lin while she's sick and watch you fumble for another one. If you're waiting for Karakas to protect her, we're looking at turn five or six, and by then you should be dead.

True Believer helps, but it's only a speedbump. Sometimes that's all you need, sometimes it isn't enough.

I dunno, maybe you guys are right about StP, but the best Burn list in my meta runs Cursed Scroll and Pithing Needle, and I don't follow the Burn thread. With the slowing of D&T, the deck has lost a step against Burn. I don't think it's favorable for us anymore.

The thing people forget about SotPC is that it's a 3/3 in combat, which is huge when you want to trade with a Mongoose or block 2/2 goblins. That's why I maindeck him.

Cannonist doesn't have any application outside of the combo matchup, and you know how I feel about preparing for combo.

CleverPetriDish

09-20-2008, 01:08 PM

I'm with you on all of these points, Kuma. Canonist has to prove itself before I will remove a Samurai for it.

And D+T HAS slowed a bit. And few people play Silver Knight or True Believer in it anymore. And importantly, Burn has gotten a lot better. The threats are more varied and efficient. I recall never being afraid of Burn, but not any more.

But you are loco not to play STP.

kensook

09-20-2008, 01:59 PM

The key cards to winning the Burn MU are Rishadan Port and StP. These buy you time to get things like life gain via jitte or land removal via mangara, etc. The problem is though, I play burn also and there is a D&T player in my local meta that still plays TB (he also plays cannonist & wasteland) and I have won every match I've had with him (4 or 5). Maybe its a matchup we need to improve on. Just my personal info on the MU, might not apply to all of you guys.

Kuma

09-20-2008, 03:05 PM

How would anyone ever get a significant number of Mangara activations to resolve vs Burn? If you burn Mangara in response to Karakas, he dies instead of being bounced. Plus the Burn player always has a chance to hit him while he's sick. Always.

How does Rishadan Port hurt a deck that's almost all Instants?

I'm 1-2 vs Burn, so it's small sample size, but it seems other people are having problems with the match too.

Galroth

09-20-2008, 05:09 PM

I maindeck Auriok Champion... Burn has never been an issue.

kensook

09-20-2008, 05:51 PM

How does Rishadan Port hurt a deck that's almost all Instants?

The fact is that it's not all instants. Burn generally has creatures consisting of Mogg Fanatic/Keldon Marauders/Ball Lightning/Spike Elemental, and then 4 of Chain Lightnings, Rift Bolts, Lava Spikes, and then some number of Flame Rifts and Flamebreaks. I'm sure these are enough sorceries/creatures to slow them off with Rishadan Port. This plus removing even one mountain that they have with Mangara (I wasn't really referring to Mangara and Karakas combo, just Mangara removing 1 land has enough effect on them because of their land count) and life gain from StP and Jitte will buy you time to beat them.

Pienterekaak

10-02-2008, 06:13 AM

Hi all, im new to D&T and i read through the entire thread.
i want to enter a tournament in a month and i wonder if D&T is the right choise for that. the meta would probally be:
landstill,dreadstill,ichorid,TES,threshold,painters combo and aggro elf.
i almost have D&T complete, but i can also play with Goyf Sligh. what would you guys suggest?

Kuma

10-02-2008, 12:21 PM

D&T (Traditional list) is bad against Landstill and TES, and solid against Dreadstill, Ichorid, and Thresh. Painter is generally solid, but it depends on their list. I have no idea how good D&T is vs Aggro Elf, but it's probably not a terrible or amazing matchup.

I don't know Goyf Sligh's matchups, so I can't tell you which is the better deck to play in that meta. D&T seems like a solid, but not amazing choice in that meta.

If I expected to play against those decks, I'd play Ichorid.

Dark_Cynic87

10-02-2008, 01:50 PM

Burn isn't almost all instants. It's instants are:

Fireblast (port has no bearing on this)-4x
Lightning Bolt-4x
Price of Progress-2x MDed if played
Magma Jet-2x-4x played
Incinerate-2x/3x/4x played

it's sorceries are:
Rift Bolt-4x played
Lava Spike-4x played
Chain Lightning-4x played
Browbeat-3x played
Browbeat-2x/3x played
Flamebreak-3x played
Flame Rift-2x/4x played if played
Mogg Fanatic/Marauders-4x played of one (most of the time just one).

Sorceries are much more prevalent in burn lists.

However, if they do it right they can save their instants for your Port activations to work around the mana screw. I'm not sure one land would matter in reference to Mangara. Maybe paired with a Port, but they run between 19-20 lands. I've only ever seen one build with lower than that. They have Browbeat (I don't care what people say about it never working the way you want it to, this card is good in Burn if you know how to play it) and Magma Jet (Instant)to find more lands if need be. Game 2 you will see Needles go into the burn list, so your Ports will become useless.

I don't play D&T but I thought I'd give a bit of insight on burn...

Pce,

--DC

Kuma

10-02-2008, 03:12 PM

Yeah, but when you look at the mana cost of those sorceries, port isn't going to do much. Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, and Mogg Fanatic cost one, Flame Rift and Marauders cost two, and the rest cost three. The smart burn player will just tap the land you ported to play instants and use the one(s) you didn't tap for sorceries. Port might keep Burn off their Browbeats and Flamebreaks, and be randomly awesome when they draw two or fewer lands, but I've found the card to be underwhelming vs Burn most of the time.

Pienterekaak

10-03-2008, 05:09 AM

i played burn for a long time, and port doesnt really do much agianst it. it happend more than once that i killed a opponent with only 1 land (so with port in play they need 2 lands).
and i have a quesion about Samurai of the pale curtain.. how much does this card actually do? it does not stop dredging or instant/sorceries going to graveyards. And i agree that true beliver is not worth the trouble, TES and Belcher just win on tokens and solidarty bounces him. At the moment i took out the samurai's and replaced them with epochasite.
which is a fine card, which i would like to test. but the problem is, i dont have any good 2 drops anymore.. so what card could fill this slot best?
my current list after reading this topic is:
4x Æther Vial
3x Umezawa’s Jitte
4x Epochrasite
3x Flickerwisp
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Jotun Grunt
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Serra Avenger
3x Stonecloaker
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Karakas
11x Plains(A)
3x Rishadan Port
3x Cataclysm

edit- is knight of medograin a option?

Kuma

10-03-2008, 12:19 PM

Samurai of the Pale Curtain is probably the most underrated card in the deck. He eats goblins and mongeese all day, stops Bridges from Below from triggering, removes Ichorids from the game, hurts Survival decks, sometimes shrinks goyfs and makes threshold a little harder to achieve. A must for the Ichorid matchup and useful vs Goblins and Thresh.

Knight of the Meadowgrain is an option, but an inferior one. I'd rather have Knight of the Holy Nimbus, and I don't even run him.

Finn

10-03-2008, 02:39 PM

It's still pretty early, but has anyone else tried out Ethersworn Canonist as something other than just a storm hoser?

Also, like with all the other hosers in this deck, taking a small sample size and saying that such and such a creature is subpar is pretty useless. I mean this for the tried and true ones only here. Since most of the critters ever tried in this deck have been really good at some times, and something like a vanilla at others, you just have to stick to what works in your meta. I bet the new knight could be good against stuff that kills your lands. But is that more common than graveyard decks?

Pienterekaak

10-03-2008, 07:13 PM

your right, i talked alot with a some friends of mine, and epochasite is just a big beater, samurai is good.
Personally i think we need 2 drops. my favorite deck to play, is my casual soldier deck, i play it for years now and improved it along the way. My soldier deck plays almost the same as this deck, relying on combat tricks to win. It could play defencive with these tricks, but also had a aggo mode in case that was needed. With alot of 3 drops and trick cards, we dont have that. thats why i think some good 2 drops are neceserry.

Also, i want to enter the Dutch open Championships with this deck. and i expect alot of combo thanks to addie (Ad Nauseam). thats why i play glowriders and knight of mediograin main. (instead of oblivion rings) so i am thinking of playing this list:

// Lands
11 [9E] Plains (3)
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LE] Glowrider
3 [LRW] Knight of Meadowgrain
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 4 [WL] Abeyance

and 4 more sideboard cards. which im not sure about yet, does anyone have a good idea for that?

btw :) goblin matchup is very good, played 5-1 against it yesterday.

Pienterekaak

10-06-2008, 10:51 AM

What about this sideboard card:

Wheel of Sun and Moon

it improves:
Solidarity
TES
Painters combo
ichorid
aggro loam
Landstill
Thresh
reanimator
+ any other mill or graveyard based deck

against alot of these matches, cataclysm can be boarded out for wheel.

loop

10-06-2008, 12:31 PM

Judging from the list of match ups you think this card will affect, I'm not sure you've given this a lot of thought.
Let's go over it step by step.

Solidarity/Painter's combo: Strictly worse than True Believer, which is already meh at best. You don't hurt their setup, you just cut them off their wincon... which means they'll just have to bounce/REB it once they're ready to win. Terrible.

Ichorid: You may steal a game just thanks to the WTF?! effect and your opponent having sideboarded for another hate piece, but once your opponent knows what to expect it won't help you much. Cabal Therapy or Ray of Revelation (or Chain of vapor?) will take care of this. Meh.

TES: .... I suppose this does cut them off IGG. Tough break. Now they'll just have to Diminishing Returns (or Ad Nauseam?) ftw. Useless.

Loam: Maybe the one that makes the most sense out of your list... but Loam has so many ways to handle this, I doubt it'll hurt them that much. Then again, I don't play loam, so what do I know. Still, strictly worse than any other GY hate?

Reanimator: I don't know reanimator. Still, unless I'm mistaken they only need 1 beater, so turn 1 Putrid Imp, discard in resp should circumvent this?

Landstill/Thresh: What? Strictly worse than Crypt, which already sucks terribly against Thresh. And... yeah, you're preventing Landstill from recurring Factories if they do run Crucible. Still, pretty useless.

I'm not sure about every MU but it really seems terrible. Besides, if you're dedicating sideboard slots to GY hate (which most D&T lists don't do), WHY would you play this over anything else? Crypt and Relic make a ton more sense.

urdjur

10-10-2008, 10:46 AM

I have a slightly more favorable verdict on Wheel. I run it as a one-of in my ETutor list, but I wouldn't recommend it in straight D&T. Relic of Progenitus is the more versatile GY hate, and I run 2 of those myself.

Wheel is better when it's important to stop things going to the GY at all, but it's worse if you actually care what's in it. For example:
*Ichorid's zombie token generation
*Affinity's modular mechanic and Disciple
*Countryside Crusher's growing in Aggro-Loam

It also SHUTS DOWN LOAM. Completely. Yes, they can wish for an answer or whatever, but making them spend wishes on hate is a good thing since they also use wishes for business and keeping their deck from falling apart.

It's still pretty early, but has anyone else tried out Ethersworn Canonist as something other than just a storm hoser?

I just wanted to comment quickly on this too. I've tried it in a D&T-ish variant and I'm pretty happy with it. I run 3x ETutor + 1x Canonist in the main, with the extra copies in the board.

It adds a little bit in the Thresh MU, but most importantly (besides anti-Storm of course), it puts those fast tempo decks more on par with the vial white weenie plan. For example, Eva Green can't Dark Ritual in to a turn 2 Tombstalker after having robbed you of StP etc.

So basically it slows down other decks just enough for you to deal with them as you had planned. I love it, and the fact that you can play around it pretty well yourself (with Vial, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker etc).

And it's not to be underestimated against Painter when you run 4x StP as well. Since you run StP, Painter is forced to play Grindstone first and then servant. Then, they must mill you on their turn. Now, if they are forced to REB Wheel first, you can StP servant in response.

I think all this makes it worth 1 SB slot if you play with tutors. Otherwise, just go with Relic - it's awesome.

leander?

10-14-2008, 06:03 PM

Also, I want to enter the Dutch open Championships with this deck, and I expect a lot of combo thanks to Ad Nauseam. Thats why I play glowriders.

Why dont just run some true believers then? Unlike glowrider, they dont hurt you at all and he is even a turn faster (Turn 3 answer to combo wont give you such a big chance, you know). The only downside to believer is that it easier to bounce and that it doesnt stop EtW. But since TES has acces to ADN, EtW isnt played that much anymore becouse you will be able to win with tendrill more often. And as I said, Glowrider's cmc makes it way less impressive for TES.

Another point: Doesnt Grunt work crappy together with Samurai? I'd say play Grunt ór Samuarai, but both seems a bit shaky..

Kuma

10-14-2008, 07:06 PM

A bit, which is why you keep one of them in the sideboard and only side it in when you're playing a deck that puts a lot of cards in the graveyard, or when you really need to affect the graveyard.

Pienterekaak

10-15-2008, 06:01 AM

well my choise for glowriders was indeed becouse TB doesnt really do anything. it almost does nothing against non storm combo decks, becouse all the combo decks have maindeck answer to the guy (with wishes).
Glowrider is harder to get rid of (since they need to dig for answers, and glowrider prevents that) and is decent against other decks (and as a free bonus, it brings the tax back in death and taxes :p). i havnt got any trouble from it myself untill now. so ill keep testing it. only had it against me once, and then i just use stonecloacker to put it back in my hand again at EOT and do my thing next turn. (also, depending on the situation, it can be a good creature after clysm)

and yes, grunt and samurai dont work that well together. thats why i only run 2 of each, in my opinion you cant run more than 2 grunts main, even without samurai on the board i had a hard time maintaining them, since almost nothing goes to my graveyard. so are you suggesting to take 2 grunts out (since samurai can help at game 1 vs combo) and put those to the side?
and how many samurai should i play main then, couse they are bad with flagstones too.

btw, thank you for your opinion about the deck, i could really use any advise to make my list stronger.

Kuma

10-15-2008, 10:27 AM

The Samurai/Flagstones interaction isn't a big deal, especially since Cataclysm has moved to the sideboard in most lists. The rare game where you're stuck with an extra Flagstones in your hand because of SotPC isn't worth running an inferior creature. Besides, you can always Flickerwisp or Stonecloaker the SotPC if you're desperate.

chmoddity

10-22-2008, 12:29 PM

Hey, you guys know the trick you can do by Vialing in a Flickerwisp in response to the comes-into-play effect of Oblivion Ring, right?

Anyway, does that work when you play a Flickerwisp and then Vial in a Stonecloaker in response to it's remove-from-game ability? Can we keep the permanent out of the game this way?

Kuma

10-22-2008, 01:43 PM

No, because Flickerwisp's ability doesn't care if Flickerwisp is still in play when it resolves.

whitescorpion

10-23-2008, 02:29 PM

porcupinetreeman

10-23-2008, 04:53 PM

Maybe a little off topic. But I was wondering if anyone has ever considered Guardian of the Guildpact as a pretty much 100% surefire way of pushing through damage?

slap a jitte on this thing and it's gg! :)

but seriously maybe 1/2 tested in the side. it's like the only (non-flying) creature that never fears to attack ito a goyf

At four mana I don't think he will see play.

I was wondering if D+T should be more of a WG deck. I've been tinkering around with it and it shines with Teeg and Goyf.

// Lands
4 Karakas
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Rishadan Port
1 Forest
3 Plains
3 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath

// Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
4 Serra Avenger
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Figure of Destiny

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial

//SB
3 Cataclysm
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Glowrider
4 Orim's Chant

The deck shines with three different maindeck legendary creatures. Cataclysms had to come out because of the poor synergy with Teeg. FOD worked out really good for vial at 1.

Mana Tithe maindeck would be really good, but I don't know how I would fit it in.

urdjur

10-26-2008, 02:18 PM

I've been working on improving the Landstill and combo MU and I think I've finally found a list I'm happy with. It features two things that have been discussed before without really reaching a consencus: Wayfarer and Tutor.

LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland

CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

You know how Aether Vial is what makes the Landstill MU winnable? Well, Weathered Wayfarer does pretty much the same thing. It too brings in land removal or threat under standstill while thwarting counters. Wayfarer also lets us run juicy 1-ofs like Maze of Ith to help against other MUs, and works extremely well with the single Crucible in the ETutor (for instance sac Flagstones to Dust Bowl -> fetch Mistveil Plains + repeat to draw out plains; replay horizon canopy to draw cards etc).

Epochrasite is such a great 1-of when you play 4x Vial + 4x Flickerwisp + 3x Tutor in the main. He's a tough threat to deal with - only StP works, and there's always the Vial+Flickerwisp to prevent that. Recurring the singleton Mishra (through crucible or grunt/mistveil + wayfarer) also spells trouble for control decks.

The ETutor toolbox gives you game 1 options against every deck in the field:
*Ethersworn Canonist: Fetch as soon as you realize you're playing against storm combo. Good against Eva Green, Thresh and Landstill too, to name a few (though hardly fetch worthy in these MUs).
*Runed Halo: Covers A LOT! Combo win cons (belcher, tendrils, grindstone etc), scepter/chant lock, Pro:W or shrouded dudes like Troll Ascetic, expected discard/burn - or just use it to take out a creature such as Tarmogoyf.
*Umezawa's Jitte: Crucial against burn game 1, but useful against almost anything. Don't expect this to help much games 2-3 against burn though (they almost certainly have SB artifact hate). CoP: Red however, will.
*Aura of Silence: Very good against Deed, Disk and to a lesser extent Explosives. Silver bullet game 1 against enchantress/affinity/stax. Also very useful to just remove something, like Counterbalance or Needle.
*Crucible of Worlds: Good against LD to protect Karakas, but just generally neat with Wayfarer and the land toolbox.
*Ghostly Prison: Game 1 silver bullet against Ichorid! As always, they can steal games if they get 20+ power on the board turn 1-2, but all Ichorid players know that GP/Propaganda is bad news game 1 (that's why Ray of Revelation comes in games 2-3, but then you have more hate). Of course, GP is good against almost every aggro deck - often even more useful than Cataclysm. Also a silver bullet against Empty the Warrens.
*Oblivion Ring: Not really needed against any deck, but not really bad against any deck either (except perhaps burn). Against Landstill, this and Aura of Silence are your only game 1 outs to Humility (since it thwarts Mangara). Anyway, too good not to include since you can 2-for-1 it with Flickerwisp.

The sideboard features Boseiju (!) together with Cataclysm, Abolish and Mine Excavation - all of these hate on Landstill, but of course have lots of uses in other MUs as well. I side in Mine Excavation in maybe 50% of all matches, since opponents always side in art/ench hate if they can. This also makes me prefer Crypt over Relic, since I can recur it. Wheel is a wicked card against anything with Dredge, and is good against the Modular mechanic in affinity too (it's much like a stronger SotPC that works with ETutor/Excavation).

I'm extremely happy with this deck now, even its performance against Landstill, combo and ichorid. It's all about tweaking it to your specific meta, and it will run like a well-oiled machine. Kudos to Finn and all you others who keep this archetype alive.

P.S. If you think this list is very different from the standard version, it really isn't. For example, instead of running 3x Oblivion Ring, I run
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Aura of Silence
1x Runed Halo
1x Maze of Ith

Instead of 3x Cataclysm main deck, I run these tutor targets for mass permanent control, and keep the clysms in the board:
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Aura of Silence

Instead of Stonecloaker and SotPC, I have Ghostly Prison for Ichorid hate (with more hate in the SB), and Wayfarer to give me more effective Karakas slots to compensate for Stonecloaker's bouncing etc. The added benefit of running tutors is that you get more versatility without loosing consistency. But it makes an already complex deck even harder to play since you now have two toolboxes to consider as well...

Maëlig

10-26-2008, 04:13 PM

Good to see your ideas incorporated in a D&T shell, urdjur. This list looks very interesting and refreshing.
I have also been advocating for the inclusion of wayfarer for a while now. He helps in problematic MU (great against landstill for eg) and adds alot of versatility to the deck.
I am not as enthusiastic on the enlighted tutor idea, however. The CD seems too harmfull against decks with counters or ways to deal with your silver bullets (ie around 75% of the field, I would say). But I guess I should give it another try. It DOES help alot against aggro and combo.
Sticking with your concepts, I would still make a few comments on your list.
I would like to see some more wastelands in there. That's the n°1 reason why I play wayfarer myself. You can argue dust bowl somehow compensates for wasteland n° 2-4, but it doesn't actually allow the same crazy plays (eg preventing a landstill player to get past his 2nd land while droping threats through vial). Other than that, you land toolbox seems fine (I'm not sure if mistveil plains is worth the trouble but well).
You play 17 1cc spells (amongst which 10 are permanents). Apart from the mana-curve problem, I think chalice and EE must be major banes. Why not try epochrasite n° 2-4 instead of isamaru? It really works well with vial, flickerwisp and cataclysm in the SB. In fact, I think it could possibly replace SotPC in classic D&T lists, but I'm drifting away.
Without SotPC, you could maybe try the 3rd grunt MD. It's such a great cards against many of the top decks at the moment (and you're missing some GY-hate MD without stonecloaker).
Is the 4th flickerwisp really needed? Do you not miss stonecloaker in that slot (just a question, I'm not too sure on this myself).
About the toolbox, I don't think I like runed halo (too defensive anyways), aura of silence and ghostly prison MD. They are all great cards but do nothing against certain decks, so I think they belong to the SB. You could include needle (you should have one in the SB at the very least) and relic of progenitus (despite the few disynergies), however.
Not much to say on the SB, except that I don't really see what abolish is doing here. Is it really better than o.ring competing for that slot?

urdjur

10-26-2008, 09:10 PM

Many good questions! I have rationales for them all, but YMMV. Here goes:

I am not as enthusiastic on the enlighted tutor idea, however. The CD seems too harmfull against decks with counters or ways to deal with your silver bullets (ie around 75% of the field, I would say). But I guess I should give it another try. It DOES help alot against aggro and combo.

You're right, but look more closely:
*All the MD silver bullets are directed towards decks that do NOT run counters.
*The cards that DO work against counters (Vial, Wayfarer) are run in redundant copies.
*The silver bullets are redundant. I wouldn't actually play ETutor against Threshold if it can be helped, but I wouldn't be unhappy to just draw AoS (against counter/top), ORing, Runed Halo etc. just as I wouldn't mind to draw an StP - it's all good Tarmogoyf hate.
*The additional SB silver bullets, again, are against decks that can't handle them. For example, Burn will not handle CoP:Red 90% of the time, and goblins have a hard time at it too. You can't rely on just silver bullets in the SB, because it only works against a few decks - but against those, it is a bye. Against the others, you need redundancy.

I would like to see some more wastelands in there. That's the n°1 reason why I play wayfarer myself. You can argue dust bowl somehow compensates for wasteland n° 2-4, but it doesn't actually allow the same crazy plays (eg preventing a landstill player to get past his 2nd land while droping threats through vial).

That would require you to be on the play, play T1 wasteland+vial, and then follow up with Wayfarer. The thing is, T1 vial in itself is very bad for landstill, so that sounds like win more. It's a neat 3 card combo when it happens, but is it worth giving up 3 more white sources?

I don't fear landstill hitting 2 mana, I fear them hitting 4 mana. Dustbowl is actually stronger than Wasteland, not only because all your lands turn into wastelands, but because you can use it with Flagstones for free. The 1x Wasteland is run for redundancy so I can ignore Pithing Needle on Dustbowl. It also gives the option to destroy a land early, but I'd really prefer to hit 3-4 mana anyway so I can do a recursive lock.

(I'm not sure if mistveil plains is worth the trouble but well).

It's not so hot in your hand, true, but tutoring for it with Flagstones (sacced to Dustbowl) makes the CIPT moot. It's a bit mana intensive to use for recursion, but I like to have it there. I'm a bit undecided though: when I take it out, I miss it. When I put it in, I sometimes grone over having it as my only white source in my opening hand.

You play 17 1cc spells (amongst which 10 are permanents). Apart from the mana-curve problem, I think chalice and EE must be major banes.

T1 Chalice@1 when I'm on the draw sucks. On the play, I can either tutor for Aura of Silence in response, or drop T1 Vial. At least, I have 5 3cc outs to Chalice in the main, meaning it slows me down but doesn't kill me.

EE@1 is often a 2-for-1. I have no reason to drop 2 Vials, or 2 Isamarus, and the latter can be save with Karakas. But yeah, killing Vial + Wayfarer on T3 does happen. EE@2 can be seriously delayed by Aura of Silence, backing up with land destruction in the late game. I've also taken care to spread out the cc's in the deck, so that there are about 10 permanents @1,2,3 each, to minimize EE damage.

Still, all this considered, I wouldn't call it a "major bane".

Why not try epochrasite n° 2-4 instead of isamaru? It really works well with vial, flickerwisp and cataclysm in the SB. In fact, I think it could possibly replace SotPC in classic D&T lists, but I'm drifting away.

Having a nice spread among creature cc's is important to optimize Vial's efficiency. Also, Isamaru is almost as good against control with Karakas as Epochrasite is. The real problem however would be supporting 4x Epochrasite. One as a tutor target is perfect with 8 "outs" to grow him. Running 4 would be like running 4 force of will in a deck with 8 other blue cards - he'd be a 1/1 for 2 most of the time. I almost never have that problem now. If I have Vial/Wisp, I fetch or play him. If I don't, I save the tutor for something else.

It could work with Epochrasite #2 in the sideboard to bring in with the clysms though. That would probably be supported.

Without SotPC, you could maybe try the 3rd grunt MD. It's such a great cards against many of the top decks at the moment (and you're missing some GY-hate MD without stonecloaker).

I am, that's true, but in the MUs where that particular GY-hate is relevant (Landstill and Ichorid mostly), I have taken steps to compensate. Playing 3 grunts MD means that I'll occasionally sit with 2 unplayable threats against some decks. Adding a singleton Stonecloaker would probably be better, but what to take out for it? I find nothing I'm willing to ditch for him.

Is the 4th flickerwisp really needed? Do you not miss stonecloaker in that slot (just a question, I'm not too sure on this myself).

How I've anguished over the correct number of cloakers/wisps! They are somewhat overlapping, but both have specific strength/weaknesses depending on what else you run. Here's the gist:
*Epochrasite = focus on wisps. Wisp+Epochrasite is good even without Vial, and Stonecloaker + Epochrasite is just bad, unless you have vial@2 (not likely) and opponent is using StP.
*Ethersworn Canonist = focus on wisps. As Finn observed, Canonist halves the effectiveness of Stonecloaker. Playing that creature again is all you can do the next round if Canonist is in play. Also, Vialing in Wisp targeting your own Canonist lets you bypass him momentarily, which can set your opponent's calculations way off :)
*Optimizing ORing = focus on wisps: If you run lots of ORings or have ETutor, you can more often 2-for-1 your opponent with it if you run the maximum number of wisps.
*Protecting non-creature permanents = focus on wisps: If you rely on non-creature permanents (like ETutor decks do), Vial+Flickerwisp can protect them from spot removal, wheras Stonecloaker can't.

however,

*Optimizing Mangara = focus on cloakers: Stonecloaker doesn't need Vial to save Mangara when you don't have Karakas (this is less important when you run Wayfarer).
*Protect creature permanents = focus on cloakers: Same rational here.
*You need the graveyard hate = focus on cloakers: Obviously.

So there you have it. The final consideration is also that Stonecloaker can target Flickerwisp and vice versa! So if you run 4 Flickerwisp and think that's just grand, you might as well run 1-2x Stonecloaker too, just because it's a good card that might let you reuse a wisp effect. And with a cloaker in play, you could wisp it and put the wisp back in your hand end of turn etc. I'd never cut a wisp for stonecloaker in this particular list however. (Tangent: I also think running 3 cloakers is pretty dangerous unless you have, say, at least 24 creatures - none of which you dislike picking up to your hand).

Bottom line: I wouldn't mind running 1-2 Stonecloakers, but I can't find the room.

About the toolbox, I don't think I like runed halo (too defensive anyways), aura of silence and ghostly prison MD. They are all great cards but do nothing against certain decks, so I think they belong to the SB.

Runed Halo affects every deck. It's even broader than StP, and there's no argument to not have it MD... Aura of Silence - true, there might be an occasional deck that includes no artifacts or enchantments, but I think they are about as rare as MUs where StP is useless. Ghostly Prison is good against pretty much every deck that runs 16+ creatures (including some Threshold builds), and works against EtW (where StP doesn't help) and gives me a game 1 against Ichorid (but on its own it wouldn't help games 2-3) - all these things qualifies for 1 MD slot I think.

You could include needle (you should have one in the SB at the very least) and relic of progenitus (despite the few disynergies), however.

Someone will probably smack me for this, but I've tried Pithing Needle and I'm unimpressed. It's a great card for many other decks - it's Trinket Mage's #1 trinket. But mono white has so many better ways to handle permanents - it's what we do best after all.

Pithing Needle is expected and almost all decks can handle artifacts game one. And you know it's only getting worse games 2-3, because they WILL board in artifact removal. There's also the problem of running all the best Pithing targets yourself! Vial? Wasteland? Mishra? And you also have to anticipate the problem. What if you pithe Deed, and he drops EE instead? Then it would have been lots better to drop Aura of Silence instead - a much tougher card to deal with.

Pithing Needle belongs in a deck that doesn't have better SB answers, doesn't risk pithing itself and doesn't advertise lots of artifacts game 1. This deck doesn't fit that bill.

Relic vs. Crypt is a tough choice. As long as you run Mine Excavation, I'd go with Crypt, mostly since you have so many ways to handle Tarmogoyf already.

Not much to say on the SB, except that I don't really see what abolish is doing here. Is it really better than o.ring competing for that slot?

I don't know if the other D&T player's have noticed, but when you run 4x Vial and 3x ORing + Jitte etc, people board in Krosan Grip and friends. I think it's a mistake to run additional copies of enchantments/artifacts in the board, when there's an instant/sorcery that will probably do just as well.

The only thing ORing has on Abolish is the possibility for creature spot removal. This is not necessary since the MD features:
4x StP
3x Mangara
1x Maze of Ith (+3 Wayfarer)
1x Oblivion Ring (+3 Enlightened Tutor)
+flickerwisp (against dreadnought), bouncable blockers (isamaru), non-targeted control (runed halo), mass creature control (ghostly prison, jitte + clysm SB) and several 4/4s or flying vigilant 3/3s to deal with smaller dudes.

Abolish, otoh, is an instant that can - for instance - kill scepter/chant lock or equipment on equipping, AND can be used with Boseiju if hard cast, OR cast turn 0 against various shenanigans. I think it's a really strong complement to mangara and ORing/AoS.

Phew, that took a long while to write, but I'm happy that I had to put my thoughts down in words. Basically, I wouldn't mind fitting Stonecloaker in the main somewhere, but I'm not really sure what to cut. I'm pretty fine without him though.

Maëlig

10-27-2008, 09:05 AM

*All the MD silver bullets are directed towards decks that do NOT run counters.
*The silver bullets are redundant. I wouldn't actually play ETutor against Threshold if it can be helped, but I wouldn't be unhappy to just draw AoS (against counter/top), ORing, Runed Halo etc. just as I wouldn't mind to draw an StP - it's all good Tarmogoyf hate.
I think your toolbox is well thought and pretty optimal, but the fact stands that against decks playing counters you will have a bunch of sub-optimal cards (tutor + part of the toolbox). Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are playing cards that have a variable impact depending on the MU (the toolbox cards obviously, but also tutor and wayfarer themselves), rather than having (or trying to have) versatile cards that are solid (but not great) in most MUs. Now, I'm not saying this is necessarly a bad thing, but you have to realize it does make the deck somehow less consistent (if you draw the wrong cards for a certain MU, or if the good cards get detroyed/discarded/whatever).

That would require you to be on the play, play T1 wasteland+vial, and then follow up with Wayfarer. The thing is, T1 vial in itself is very bad for landstill, so that sounds like win more. It's a neat 3 card combo when it happens, but is it worth giving up 3 more white sources?
That was only an ideal situation example, but even at 3/4/5 lands on their side and even without vial on yours, I find wayfarer + waste a great tool against landstill (and other non-basic control decks, in fact).

Having a nice spread among creature cc's is important to optimize Vial's efficiency. Also, Isamaru is almost as good against control with Karakas as Epochrasite is. The real problem however would be supporting 4x Epochrasite. One as a tutor target is perfect with 8 "outs" to grow him. Running 4 would be like running 4 force of will in a deck with 8 other blue cards - he'd be a 1/1 for 2 most of the time. I almost never have that problem now. If I have Vial/Wisp, I fetch or play him. If I don't, I save the tutor for something else.
You forgot to mention it's also great to recover from sweepers, something that D&T has always had a problem with. It is also one of the only 2-drop you can actually play on turn 2, which smoothes out the curve.

I am, that's true, but in the MUs where that particular GY-hate is relevant (Landstill and Ichorid mostly), I have taken steps to compensate. Playing 3 grunts MD means that I'll occasionally sit with 2 unplayable threats against some decks. Adding a singleton Stonecloaker would probably be better, but what to take out for it? I find nothing I'm willing to ditch for him.
You forgot to mention loam decks, which is the 1st reason to play stonecloaker imo (grunt is also decent in this MU). Also, with all the goyfs around, having an extra grunt is rarely a bad thing.

*Ethersworn Canonist = focus on wisps. As Finn observed, Canonist halves the effectiveness of Stonecloaker. Playing that creature again is all you can do the next round if Canonist is in play. Also, Vialing in Wisp targeting your own Canonist lets you bypass him momentarily, which can set your opponent's calculations way off :)
Not necessarly. It also means you can play/vial stonecloaker in resp to an anti-creature (on canonist or another target) and your opponent won't be able to respond to it.

I do agree with you that it's either wisp OR cloaker (in your build, not the classic D&T one). Your have enough 3cc spells, and running 1-2 random cloakers seems a bit janky.

Runed Halo affects every deck. It's even broader than StP, and there's no argument to not have it MD...
It does, but it's also alot more defensive than stp. I guess that you can make an argument for it since you run 8 flyers, but I'm still not sure about MDing it.

Ghostly Prison is good against pretty much every deck that runs 16+ creatures (including some Threshold builds), and works against EtW (where StP doesn't help) and gives me a game 1 against Ichorid (but on its own it wouldn't help games 2-3) - all these things qualifies for 1 MD slot I think.
Do you see alot of thresh builds with 16+ creatures? oO
It is true that it's rarely useless (although quite often sub-optimal I would guess), but with the mana-denial strategy as a complement it might earn its MD slot.

I don't know if the other D&T player's have noticed, but when you run 4x Vial and 3x ORing + Jitte etc, people board in Krosan Grip and friends. I think it's a mistake to run additional copies of enchantments/artifacts in the board, when there's an instant/sorcery that will probably do just as well.
So what? If you can't avoid krosan grip, you might as well disregard it and play the best options available. If your o.ring doesn't get hit, it will be another of your artifacts/enchantments. Deed is alot more dangerous against it than grip is.

The only thing ORing has on Abolish is the possibility for creature spot removal.
And planewalkers. Besides, having some extra creature spot removal is never a bad thing in the current meta.

Anyways, don't take those comments/criticisms too harshly. I have to reiterate that I love your build, and will be testing it in the near future.

urdjur

10-27-2008, 11:34 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are playing cards that have a variable impact depending on the MU (the toolbox cards obviously, but also tutor and wayfarer themselves), rather than having (or trying to have) versatile cards that are solid (but not great) in most MUs. Now, I'm not saying this is necessarly a bad thing, but you have to realize it does make the deck somehow less consistent (if you draw the wrong cards for a certain MU, or if the good cards get detroyed/discarded/whatever).

Yup, I quite agree. That about sums it up - in fact, I think it applies to all toolbox strategies. To make a parallel:

"Normal" Death and Taxes is like a swiss army knife. It's compact, multi purpose and handles most things excellently. Sometimes, using that small saw to cut a big log is gonna be a hassle, but it will work.

My version is like a real heavy duty toolbox. It has a real wrench and a big saw. They will really get the job done easily, but sometimes they will be a lot more clunky than the slim line SAK.

That was only an ideal situation example, but even at 3/4/5 lands on their side and even without vial on yours, I find wayfarer + waste a great tool against landstill (and other non-basic control decks, in fact).

I do too, but I find 1x Wasteland, 1x Dustbowl and 1x Crucible of Worlds to be an optimum split for this version.

You forgot to mention it's also great to recover from sweepers, something that D&T has always had a problem with. It is also one of the only 2-drop you can actually play on turn 2, which smoothes out the curve.

Yup, I think it could definetely be run in the SotPC slot in the standard list, as long as you run 4x Vial, 4x Flickerwisp and 3x Cataclysm + enough creatures and artifacts to enable you to sacrifice Epochrasite readily while keeping board advantage. You'd be trading Ichorid MU against Landstill MU, which sounds like a good trade for my meta at least.

You forgot to mention loam decks, which is the 1st reason to play stonecloaker imo (grunt is also decent in this MU). Also, with all the goyfs around, having an extra grunt is rarely a bad thing.
[...]
Not necessarly. It also means you can play/vial stonecloaker in resp to an anti-creature (on canonist or another target) and your opponent won't be able to respond to it.

I do agree with you that it's either wisp OR cloaker (in your build, not the classic D&T one). Your have enough 3cc spells, and running 1-2 random cloakers seems a bit janky.
[...]
It does, but it's also alot more defensive than stp. I guess that you can make an argument for it since you run 8 flyers, but I'm still not sure about MDing it.

I still can't decide if 2 Stonecloakers should be run anyway. It's a good card with wisp/grunt/mangara, helps against Loam/Landstill and gives me even more flyers for Halo synergy. I don't think 2 of them would be that random - in fact, I think running 3 will sometimes make you cry. It would simply mean a 4/2 wisp/cloaker split instead of the usual 3/3. It also puts that Vial@3 to better use. And more 3cc threats is good against chalice/counterbalance.

But what to cut? The only thing I could think of last night was:
*Swap Maze of Ith for Kor Haven (I still haven't decided which is better).
*Another mana producing land lets us cut a land.
*Also cut Mistveil Plains - since it CIPT, I haven't counted it as a mana producer so I'm actually running 1 land too many. I basically count it as a Soldevi Digger, but I'm not sure it's really needed.

This would give 2 free slots for 2x Stonecloaker, and still leave me with 20 sources (plus vial, wayfarer), which is optimal for a curve that tops at 3cc. What do you think? It makes me more dependent on Crucible for land recursion, but in practice I probably was already since Mistveil is so clunky.

Do you see alot of thresh builds with 16+ creatures? oO

Sorry, what I meant was 16+ creatures decks AND threshold (though not as much as gobbos obviously) despite that they don't run that many creatures, since their draw spells give them more effective creatures and limited land + need for cantripping makes GP hurt more than one would think against such a threat light deck. Hope that clears it up.

Deed is alot more dangerous against it than grip is.

Yet another reason not to run more than the single MD copy then.

Anyways, don't take those comments/criticisms too harshly. I have to reiterate that I love your build, and will be testing it in the near future.

No worries, I wouldn't post on these forums if I didn't want people to comment and give input :) It all contributes to making a strong deck.

Kuma

10-27-2008, 03:19 PM

@ those of you radically altering D&T to beat Landstill and Storm combo.

Why?

Let's face it, We're never going to have a better than 30/70 Storm matchup, especially with Ad Nauseum making Storm faster than ever. I've never played D&T vs Landstill, but you're all convinced it's a terrible matchup that needs improvement.

If my meta consisted of Landstill and Storm combo, I'd run Dragon Stompy. Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

D&T is a fine deck with a highly favorable Goblin matchup, favorable Aggro Loam and Dreadstill matchups, and a roughly even match with Thresh, Ichorid, and Painter. Why run it at all in a hostile meta?

Ikurei,TheGodsSlayer

10-27-2008, 03:46 PM

Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?

PD: I have edited a huge error caused by my poor english, sorry

Maëlig

10-27-2008, 04:40 PM

Yup, I think it could definetely be run in the SotPC slot in the standard list, as long as you run 4x Vial, 4x Flickerwisp and 3x Cataclysm + enough creatures and artifacts to enable you to sacrifice Epochrasite readily while keeping board advantage. You'd be trading Ichorid MU against Landstill MU, which sounds like a good trade for my meta at least.
Well, you would still be running 4xSotPC in the SB obviously (otherwise you can say goodbye to the ichorid MU), but I would think epochrasite is better against a random opponent (ie g1) than SotPC. The only problem then is the reduced flexibility caused by the cuts in the SB.

@ those of you radically altering D&T to beat Landstill and Storm combo.

Why?

Let's face it, We're never going to have a better than 30/70 Storm matchup, especially with Ad Nauseum making Storm faster than ever. I've never played D&T vs Landstill, but you're all convinced it's a terrible matchup that needs improvement.

If my meta consisted of Landstill and Storm combo, I'd run Dragon Stompy. Why try to fit a square peg into a round hole?

You do make a point, but what I attempt to do with my list (I'll speak in my name here, but I would guess that the situation is similar for urdjur) is not tweaking D&T against landstill. The improved landstill MU is one of the consequences of this altered list, and certainly something I've had in mind while constructing it, but by no means the only one. Rather, it's partly based on different concepts (making it almost a different deck, but with enough similarities to be classified under "D&T"), which is not exactly what I would call "tweaking". You end up with different MU results (both positively and negatively) all across the field and a deck that sometimes plays out very differently from a normal D&T.
Also,

D&T is a fine deck with a highly favorable Goblin matchup, favorable Aggro Loam and Dreadstill matchups, and a roughly even match with Thresh, Ichorid, and Painter. Why run it at all in a hostile meta?
In a meta composed only of those decks I would certainly play the classic build, but
a) it's not always possible to know what the meta will be like (and there's always the possibility to encounter the random black sheep)
b) landstill (as well as intuition-control) is regularly present in a developed meta where the decks you listed would appear

Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?

As a rule of thumb, I would say that the further your opponent deck is from an aggro-control template, the better cataclysm gets. Now, this is obviously a simplification, so apply it smartly. But in general, I would side in cataclysm mostly against aggro (goblins mostly) and control (MUC, landstill, intuition-control, enchantress).

urdjur

10-27-2008, 06:06 PM

I second the answers from Maëlig to Kuma. It's also pretty difficult to define Death and Taxes. Finn has previously said that D&T is basically MW aggro-control with Mangara. Maëlig commented on my "aggro-parfait" list previously in the N&D forum, and I thought that was sufficiently different to merit its own thread.

Now I've basically taken what I learned there and stuck it in the Karakas/Mangara shell that is D&T. If you want to call it something else than D&T to separate the builds, I'm calling it Value Added Taxes (a bit cheeky, but wtf).

Sorry for this newbbie question: in a decklist more or less like the one urdjur has posted, how would you use the SB Cataclysms? I mean, against who and what would you take off, superficially?

SB Cataclysms work normally against decks that typically overextends one permanent type on the board (land.dec, goblins, enchantress, affinity, landstill - to name a few). Sometimes you also need GY hate to make it count. The only added benefit is that Boseiju works as a "silver bullet land" with Cataclysm against landstill, since Cataclysm is probably the least resolved spell ever against landstill.

But landstill is pretty unique in its ability to run counters AND overextend a permanent, and that's the only time we need clysm + boseiju. Against other decks running counters, boseiju works well with Abolish and Mine Excavation however.

The most important thing with the sideboarded sorceries/instants is change of strategy. Landstill will see wasteland/dustbowl game 1 and react as they sideboard. Goblins will see Ghostly Prison and react. Faerie Stompy will see Aura of Silence and react. They will guess wrong, because game 2 doesn't bring more of the same, it brings more of something new that accomplishes similar things - which is something else entirely. That's my plan at least - of course, when testing in small groups, the trick looses its novelty value quickly. But I think it's solid thinking for a tournament.

Finn

10-28-2008, 03:15 PM

As a rule of thumb, I would say that the further your opponent deck is from an aggro-control template, the better cataclysm gets. Now, this is obviously a simplification, so apply it smartly. But in general, I would side in cataclysm mostly against aggro (goblins mostly) and control (MUC, landstill, intuition-control, enchantress).You are spot-on here, Mealig. And I am glad you brought that up because I had not thought to put it in those terms. You may remember that a lot of people have been removing Cataclysm from their decks. I had been doing this myself for awhile, but I have since returned them. The main reason revolves around what decks it hoses and what decks D+T is strong against. They are opposites. So Cataclysm gives you a powerful out against an opponent that would otherwise pound you.

Elves
Enchantress
Stax
BGw control
Intuition control
Goblins
MUC
Mono-white control - I have been seeing on MWS
Landstill
etc...

Kuma

10-29-2008, 01:29 PM

I have to take objection with the "White aggro-control with Mangara" definition of D&T. Adding Mangara & Karakas to a deck doesn't make it "Death & Taxes" any more than adding Mogg Fanatic to a deck makes it a "Goblin deck".

The primary difference between WW & D&T is WW focuses on speed while D&T focuses on utility. D&T does tricks with Stonecloaker, Flickerwisp, Mangara, and Karakas, while WW goes straight for the throat with Geddon/Cataclysm to seal the deal. That said, D&T is still very much an aggro deck that can bring the pain turn after turn.

I define aggro as a deck that tries to do as much damage to the opponent as quickly as possible, usually through playing efficient creature(s) almost every turn, while clearing out blockers. Examples of pure aggro decks are Vial Goblins, Goyf Sligh, Elf Aggro, BDW, Zoo, and Burn.

Under this definition of aggro, I can't call Maelig and urdjar's lists "aggro." There just isn't a concerted effort to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. I think D&T is at its best when it's swinging with creatures first and pulling tricks second. The idea of a Weatered Wayfarer/Enlightened Tutor toolbox is contrary to an aggro plan. Finding silver bullets is nice, but when they come with tempo and/or card disadvantage, they usually aren't worth it. When you only have one solution to a deck, they only need one answer to beat you.

I'm fine with Trinket Mage toolboxes, as they take up few cards, don't have card disadvantage, and because Trinket Mage can be useful as soon as you play it. I'm fine with ITF's Intuition toolbox because the cards are useful in almost every match. Wishboards are fine because they don't take up maindeck space and don't cause card disadvantage. But I can't get behind a deck that uses two seperate toolboxes, one of which has card disadvantage, while the other one requires you to be behind in tempo. urdjar's list runs 18 cards that are extremely situational, or that find extremely situational cards.

Right now, these decks are a mile wide and an inch deep. Having silver bullets is no replacement for a solid gameplan, because one of these is stopped by a single removal card/counterspell, while the other can withstand several such cards.

You may have a solid Landstill/Combo matchup, but I think you've severely weakened yourselves against the rest of the field. The idea looks good on paper, but I don't think it will translate into results.

Look, I know D&T is all about tweaking it to your metagame, but you'd be better off in some metagames with a different deck. If you want to have strong matchups against Landstill, Storm, and Ichorid, why not run Dragon Stompy?

Ceridan

11-04-2008, 05:10 PM

Hi!

What would you guys recommend boarding against Merfolk-decks? Seems to be the winning deck in my meta right now.

Kuma

11-04-2008, 06:15 PM

Cataclysm seems like a good choice, but you shouldn't have too much trouble with Merfolk to begin with. Their creatures are generally worse in combat than yours, they can't Islandwalk you easily, and their mana denial plan is mostly inneffective. We also run enough spot removal to make their lives miserable.

Finn

11-05-2008, 01:23 PM

Right now, these decks are a mile wide and an inch deep. Having silver bullets is no replacement for a solid gameplan, because one of these is stopped by a single removal card/counterspell, while the other can withstand several such cards.

You may have a solid Landstill/Combo matchup, but I think you've severely weakened yourselves against the rest of the field. The idea looks good on paper, but I don't think it will translate into results.

Look, I know D&T is all about tweaking it to your metagame, but you'd be better off in some metagames with a different deck. If you want to have strong matchups against Landstill, Storm, and Ichorid, why not run Dragon Stompy?Yeah. Trying to have silver bullets and aggro at the same time is a time-honored impossibility. Just ask ATS or Welder Survival.

The unfortunate truth here is that you are going to have a category of opponents that will beat you. If you go with the creatures I have chosen, traditional Landstill and fast combo will be an issue while most other opponents will be in your favor. If you swap some of them out for Glowrider and Hokori, you will have improved your game against probably Landstill and Enchantress and some other stuff at the expense of some of the decks you can currently roll. You can go with Children of Korlis and True Believer in the main to be hard on combo. But then all the other matchups get weaker. It's really a matter of what you are planning to see. Also, remember that Legacy decks are fantastic at finding answers. So the one factor that seems to remain important, is the ability to apply life total pressure while these disruptors are on the table. Otherwise you are playing a Jack Elgin deck.

Oh, and try spot removal for those merfolk. Sunlance or Condemn should be nice.

Kuma

11-28-2008, 02:58 PM

After some tinkering, here is my current list:

// Lands
4 [LG] Karakas
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
13 [UNH] Plains
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Stonecloaker
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 [SC] Silver Knight
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [A] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [SHM] Runed Halo

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [PLC] Stonecloaker
SB: 1 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 1 [SC] Silver Knight
SB: 1 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 3 [TSP] Tivadar of Thorn
SB: 3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 4 [PS] Orim's Chant

The biggest problem I have with it is the one-of cards in the sideboard. They came as a result of me working Runed Halo into the main deck on account of glowing reports from another D&T player in my meta. There's lots of flexibility here, and few truly dead cards while maintaining a decent aggro plan.

Sideboard strategies ATM, are:

Aggro Loam: -3 Isamaru, -3 SotPC, +2 Jotun Grunt, +1 Silver Knight, +2 Tivadar of Thorn, +1 Oblivion Ring

Goblins: -3 Runed Halo, -1 Flickerwisp, +3 Tivadar, +1 Silver Knight

Dreadstill: -3 Silver Knight, -3 Isamaru/SotPC, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Runed Halo, +4 Orim's Chant

Ugr Swan Thresh: -3 Isamaru, -2 Stonecloaker, -1 Flagstones, +3 Jotun Grunt, +1 Runed Halo, +1 Silver Knight, +1 Oblivion Ring

Storm: -4 StP, -1 Stonecloaker, +4 Orim's Chant, +1 Runed Halo

Armageddon Stax: -2 Runed Halo, +1 SotPC, +1 Oblivion Ring

Painter (non Imperial): -2 Silver Knight, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Runed Halo

Ichorid: -3 Oblivion Ring, -3 Mangara of Corondor, -3 Runed Halo, +3 Jotun Grunt, +1 SotPC, +1 Silver Knight, +4 Orim's Chant

Suggestions?

Ceridan

12-01-2008, 05:25 PM

Hi!

What would you say is the best SB-card against burn?

Kitchen Finks
Auriok Champion
Circle of Protection: Red
Warmth
Silver Knight
Other?

Helpfull cards vs Devastating Dreams would also be nice.

Tip: Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law is gold vs Counter Balance, Deed, Survival etc.

Pienterekaak

12-02-2008, 07:13 AM

Tip: Ronom Unicorn/Kami of Ancient Law is gold vs Counter Balance, Deed, Survival etc.

I was thinking of playing one of those, but the problem is, counterbalance will just counter it since its CC = 2. and deed will blow up without giving you priority. so i dont think it will work that well to be honest.

I played this deck on a big dutch tournament (142 players) and ended 44th. (went 4-3-1) i also lost 2 matches becouse of play errors, which were really stupid :p

i played the following list:
// Lands
12 [9E] Plains
2 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
4 [LG] Karakas

// Creatures
3 [CHK] Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 [CS] Jotun Grunt
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [PLC] Stonecloaker
3 [CHP] Serra Avenger
3 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [LE] Glowrider
3 Epochrasite
2 [CHK] Samurai of the Pale Curtain

// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Cataclysm
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 [WL] Orim's Chant
SB: 4 Wheel of Sun and Moon

Cataclysm goes side, rings go in, i sided clysm out many times for ring.
further more, epochrasite is going out. it is not good in this deck.
Wheel of Sun and Moon is going to stay in for a while, it helped me alot vs Aggro Loam and Team America (tarmogoyf which only feeds on my.. almost empty grave and good luck hardcasting that tombstalker..)

How about chalise as a sideboard card?
it helps vs combo and burn

And why do people play runed halo? is this card that good in this deck? and which card do you often name?

ohyeah, i found out that humility is a very very strong card against this deck..

Ceridan

12-02-2008, 08:30 AM

Well, the thing about unicorn is that you don´t have to hold it in your hand the whole game. People usually dont play their Counterbalance turn 2 but wait until the game is more stable. I also think that playing 1 is not enough, Death and Taxes is not a deck full of silver bullets but rely on stability.

Kuma

12-02-2008, 11:22 AM

And why do people play runed halo? is this card that good in this deck? and which card do you often name?

Yes, Runed Halo is that good; it's the ultimate silver bullet. I frequently name Grindstone, Tarmogoyf, Tendrils of Agony, Countryside Crusher, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Terravore, and Goblin Charbelcher. Or you can just name their biggest creature in play.

It's amazing against any deck with a limited number of kill conditions. Vs stuff like Goblins, you side it out.

On a side note, between Aether Vial, Oblivion Ring, Mangara, and to a lesser degree Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker, Counterbalance can often be dealt with. But active Countertop is almost always gg.

Pienterekaak

12-02-2008, 11:56 AM

mmm maybe its worth to test it if it has enough targets main deck.
i might play it instead of glowrider, which serves almost the same function.
and countertop can be played around with D&T, its not always easy, but countertop combo isnt always game against it.

Kuma

12-02-2008, 01:27 PM

Well, let me put it this way: I've won one or two games against active countertop (Sensei's + Counterbalance + mana). While we have answers like Oblivion Ring, Aether Vial and Mangara, they also have extra counterspells, and often burn for Mangara and Krosan Grip for Ring and Vial.

Maëlig

12-04-2008, 04:21 PM

Yes, Runed Halo is that good; it's the ultimate silver bullet. I frequently name Grindstone, Tarmogoyf, Tendrils of Agony, Countryside Crusher, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Terravore, and Goblin Charbelcher. Or you can just name their biggest creature in play.

I would argue the opposite. Runed halo is not reliable enough to be run MD, and not game-breaking enough to be included in the SB.
It's versatile obviously, but also very reactive, which goes against the strategy of the deck. You want to play disruptive creatures, not defensive enchantments.
Also, if you include this to stop combo: don't, it won't work. Canonist, orim's chant and even glowrider are much better fitted for that role. Runed halo is even worse against combo than true believer, that's how bad it is.

As for

What would you say is the best SB-card against burn?

Kitchen Finks
Auriok Champion
Circle of Protection: Red
Warmth
Silver Knight
Other?

The ones you listed are all good options imo, don't forget true believer.
I would go with one of the most versatiles, ie that is not only usefull in the burn MU. So probably not cop: red (again, too defensive, gobs will just overrun you) or warmth.

Kuma

12-04-2008, 07:15 PM

I would argue the opposite. Runed halo is not reliable enough to be run MD, and not game-breaking enough to be included in the SB.
It's versatile obviously, but also very reactive, which goes against the strategy of the deck. You want to play disruptive creatures, not defensive enchantments.

How is Runed Halo any more unreliable than Oblivion Ring, or any other permanent in the deck? As for game breaking, ask Threshold how it like a Halo naming Tarmogoyf. Or Dreadstill how it likes a Halo naming Dreadnought. In fact, most of the top decks in the format run 1-3 win conditions.

All answer cards are, by definition, reactive. Do StP, Oblivion Ring, and the Maze of Ith you insist on running go against the strategy of the deck? I agree that Runed Halo would be better if it came with a 2/2 body and didn't leave creatures around to block, but one of the best things about D&T's aggro plan is that we run fliers and equipment, so mucking up the ground isn't a huge deal.

Also, if you include this to stop combo: don't, it won't work. Canonist, orim's chant and even glowrider are much better fitted for that role. Runed halo is even worse against combo than true believer, that's how bad it is.

Orim's Chant and Ethersworn Cannonist are the two best cards we have against combo. But they have no applications outside of the combo match, while Runed Halo at worst stops a creature from attacking or puts four dead draws in an opponent's deck.

I don't see how a two mana card that shuts off combo's primary win conditions is bad against combo. The fact that it has nearly unlimited other uses makes it far better in D&T than Cannonist, Chant, Glowrider, and True Believer.

Seriously, punt the storm combo matchup already. There's no good reason to feebly shake your fists at storm with D&T when you could run something with a positive storm matchup.

saspook

12-04-2008, 07:35 PM

How is Runed Halo any more unreliable than Oblivion Ring, or any other permanent in the deck? As for game breaking, ask Threshold how it like a Halo naming Tarmogoyf. Or Dreadstill how it likes a Halo naming Dreadnought. In fact, most of the top decks in the format run 1-3 win conditions.

All answer cards are, by definition, reactive. Do StP, Oblivion Ring, and the Maze of Ith you insist on running go against the strategy of the deck?

As you pointed out, Halo leaves creatures behind to stop ours from getting through. That is a huge difference.

Kuma

12-05-2008, 11:40 AM

As you pointed out, Halo leaves creatures behind to stop ours from getting through. That is a huge difference.

...one of the best things about D&T's aggro plan is that we run fliers and equipment, so mucking up the ground isn't a huge deal.

I run nine three power fliers in my list. D&T has the best air game in Legacy outside of Faerie Stompy, so leaving their creatures on the ground isn't terrible.

Oblivion Ring and Runed Halo compliment each other nicely.

O-Ring

- Stops artifacts, enchantments, and creatures.

Runed Halo

- Stops instants, sorceries, and lands (and most creatures, some artifacts, and some enchantments).

Give Runed Halo a shot, I doubt you'll be disappointed. Those of you who like to pretend D&T is a control deck have no excuse as it fits your strategy even better than mine.

Pienterekaak

12-06-2008, 10:17 AM

to be honest, i dont think runed halo is very effective against combo, you name tendrills, they go with empty the warrents, or bounce it back with solidarity. so combo has mainboard answers against it. so then its mostly creature removal, which oblivion ring is better at. but i might give it a try just to see how it works.

georgjorge

12-06-2008, 10:42 AM

Few combo lists run Empty the Warrens anymore, either sideboard or mainboard. The reason is that they use Ad Nauseam or Doomsday, and those decks don't want to pass the turn at two or three life, even with twenty Goblins in play. Also, for the nth time, the fact that an opponent can get rid of a card somehow doesn't make it bad (because that would apply to EVERY CARD OUT THERE).

Maëlig

12-06-2008, 12:17 PM

Also, for the nth time, the fact that an opponent can get rid of a card somehow doesn't make it bad (because that would apply to EVERY CARD OUT THERE).
Yes it does. There is a key difference between true believer and runed halo on the one side and canonist, chant and glowrider on the other, which makes the latter category invaluably better. True believer and runed halo don’t prevent combo from going off, it just stops the kill. The only problem is that once combo HAS gone off, it usually has at its disposition a number of options to get rid of this (not to mention the alternate win cons). It might help against belcher or spanish inquisition, but not much else. My point is, your best chance against combo is not to block off its kill conditions, but to prevent (read: delay) it from going off.

Finn

12-06-2008, 12:52 PM

Some thoughts on this topic:

1. I have recently been playing a version that pretends Goblins does not exist. It has 4x Canonist, 4x Chant, and 3x Glowrider in the side. I have been testing against all the Tendrils combo decks, and here is my initial finding. Orim's Chant sux if the opponent is playing Duress. However, many of them prefer Orim's Chant instead of Duress. If the opponent is doing that, your odds are significantly better.

In all Tendrils games, g1 is close to an autoloss. You have to get pretty darned lucky, so your build HAS to win games 2 and 3 consistently to ever get a bonafide good matchup against combo. Let me spoil the suspense for you. It will never happen in a monowhite deck no matter what Jack Elgin may ever claim.

With the build I described (having that significant combo defense in the board) I still only take about half of the matches against quality opponents playing the top Tendrils combos. Any two of Canonist, Chant, and Glowrider in the same game should pretty much spell victory. But you have to draw them and that is that.

2. Runed Halo is NOT gigantically effective against combo. It is, however, generally a pain in the ass. True Believer never was not a proper combo hoser either. But we put that card in the main because it was an attacker. But much more importantly, because it was a generalist. As mediocre is he was in most matchups, he always did something, and he typically bought a few turns on the key ones. That is why I would never put a card like that in the sb. You need real hosers in the board. The deck is full of generally annoying stuff that can attack. If you are arguing that Runed Halo is generally good, it does not belong in the sb. It goes in the main.

Pienterekaak

12-08-2008, 01:22 PM

I am going to try a build with 2 glowrider and 3 canonist main. to see how much it affects me, and how much it disrubs my opponent. It would certainly give me alot more chance vs combo.
canonist also slows down decks,
aggro elf can only play 1 elf each turn.. i can handle that with mangara :),
thresh etc gets a hard time cantripping,
burn can only burn me once a turn (ofcourse, canonist gets a burn first..),
combo really hates that card
and i can dodge it with vial :)
and untill now i rarely play more than 1 spell during a turn. so i think its worth a try. Also ill test chalise in side.

Forbiddian

12-10-2008, 06:22 PM

I thought I would mention this, because people are flooding our thread with Death and Taxes themed suggestions (Karakous, Mangara, Stonecloaker even, Isamaru, etc.) based on Wayfarer, alone.

Sorry this is one of those, "Here's a suggestion, but I didn't playtest it or anything." suggestions, but you seem light on one-drops and DnT is infinitely better with Karakous, so it's probably worth trying.

Without Wasteland, it won't be as good, but you still run Cataclysm, right?

Maëlig

12-10-2008, 07:54 PM

@ Forbiddian : you're absolutely right to mention wayfarer. It's one of those cards that's been considered almost since the beginning, but that's been dismissed for lack of aggressivity or combat tricks. If you ask me, the possibility of establishing a wasteland soft-lock (as well as fetching karakas when needed and to a lesser extent possible toolbox cards such as maze and factory) is well worth that lost of aggressivity. This is especially true since it helps alot in problematic MUs (intuition-control, landstill). But of course, you need an appropriate build. It first means replacing port by wasteland (port-lock doesn't work as well as waste-lock, surprisingly...), which might also push you to move cataclysm to the SB. You should also adapt you manabase accordingly, I play this (same total number of lands, although maze doesn't produce mana) :
12 [IN] Plains (3)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
Next step : play Lin... :tongue:

Pienterekaak

12-15-2008, 07:51 AM

Ceridan

12-15-2008, 09:23 AM

Btw, i was wondering, why doesnt D&T play top with fetchlands to make it more consistent? or any fetchland at all?
I had to board out cataclysm alot, so i moved to my side as a 2 off now. Thus i dont need that much lands anymore. Im also cutting flagstones, becouse MUC is very populair here these days, and it plays 4 back to basics main.

One of the best things about DaT is it´s stabile mana-base. Fetch makes you vulnerable against stifle etc. To have a stabile mana-base is also vital if you are planning on running Cataclysm.

Pienterekaak

12-15-2008, 09:30 AM

clysm is in my side and ill see how much i need to board it in again, and a few decks play stifle.. but then again, plz stife my fetch land and not my vial/mangara/karakas?

Ceridan

12-15-2008, 10:01 AM

clysm is in my side and ill see how much i need to board it in again, and a few decks play stifle.. but then again, plz stife my fetch land and not my vial/mangara/karakas?

Many of the cards in DaT is cc3 and WW, this makes the mana-base very important since we don´t have any diggers like Brainstorm or Top.

How many stifles people run is a meta question. It seems like the popularity is rising again.

Pienterekaak

12-15-2008, 10:07 AM

true, but i wonder how much my manabase will be disturbed by stifles, since i play alot of other tricks which are stifable. and im thinking of 6 fetch land, which still gives me non fetch 15 lands. and like you sad, my spells are pretty cheap, and i have vial. i think its worth testing, since im going to try Sensei’s Divining Top

Maëlig

12-15-2008, 12:59 PM

clysm is in my side and ill see how much i need to board it in again, and a few decks play stifle.. but then again, plz stife my fetch land and not my vial/mangara/karakas?
If he does, you probably won't get to play mangara until a while anyways. :wink: Also, it'll set you back on tempo. Not to mention stiflying vial isn't usually a great play.
I don't really see the point in adding fetches without a splash, though going Wb or Wg might justify the inclusion of top.

Kuma

12-15-2008, 02:43 PM

Adding Fetches + Top seems like an interesting idea to revisit, but I can't think what to cut for Top. I can see this helping in the Thresh matchup to give us the edge we need to overcome the stalemate we often end up in. At the same time, we're opening ourselves up to Armageddon and Blood Moon. Honestly, we're already packed pretty tight, and I don't think adding Top + Fetches is going to improve the overall package, but I could be wrong...

Pienterekaak

12-15-2008, 04:52 PM

well i dont know either :) thats why im going to try to find out how much it does. the idea is, that its quite a allround deck, so is thresh, but thresh is good becouse of its cantrips, its ability to find answers to everything. if this would work out good, it might make D&T more consistent

Enigma

12-17-2008, 01:46 PM

Hi guys,

There's a D&T player in my metagame who is pretty good. I play aggro-control and was questionning myself what's good against him. Sure, mass removal can be good, as removales for flyings, but what else?

If you feel like not wanting to give tips about how to fight your deck, I would understand.

PM

Kuma

12-17-2008, 02:40 PM

Depends on what kind of aggro-control you're playing. Non-red, non-tempo Thresh lists tend to work best against D&T. Counterbalance is probably your best weapon against D&T, followed by Engineered Explosives. Engineered Explosives at two can be devestating against D&T, but it's best to wait until you can play and use it in one turn, or else they might O-Ring or Flickerwisp it.

Aggro Loam and Dreadstill aren't the best choices to beat D&T, especially Aggro Loam. D&T runs too many basics, too many protection from red creatures, too much graveyard hate, and too much spot removal.

I have no idea how good Team America is vs D&T. Never had that matchup.

Chalice at one is decent, and Chalice at two is tough for D&T to work around. But neither of these cards are game-breaking.

That's the thing about D&T. There isn't an easy way for aggro-control to shut it out. My games vs aggro control tend to last a long time, often until the end of the round.

The matchups are very close, but winnable for either side. You have to play very tight to get the edge, and the game usually goes to the better player.

CleverPetriDish

12-24-2008, 08:05 AM

Has anyone thought of trying out black again with Tidehollow Sculler? It has good interactions with many parts of the deck.

Pienterekaak

12-24-2008, 08:13 AM

No offence, but in what way does it interact with the deck then?
if i bounce it, he gets his card back..

edit: ahh i see, come into play ability on stack, then bounce it, still.. seems like alot of trouble to get 1 card out of the hand of my opponent (since to play and bounce i need atleast 5 mana, or vial @3 + black splash)

CleverPetriDish

12-24-2008, 02:01 PM

It's exactly the same thing we have been doing with Oblivion Ring. On its own, it is a fine card. Against the combo matchups, he provides reliable disruption piggybacked on a 2/2 body for game 1. After all, what creature removal does combo pack in their main? But if you get the right stuff going on, it is a 2-for-1 for every Stonecloaker and Flickerwisp you combine it with.

Curby

12-28-2008, 11:04 AM

Some thoughts on this topic:

1. I have recently been playing a version that pretends Goblins does not exist. It has 4x Canonist, 4x Chant, and 3x Glowrider in the side.
...

With the build I described (having that significant combo defense in the board) I still only take about half of the matches against quality opponents playing the top Tendrils combos.

In short, we only get to 50% with 11/15 sideboard cards being dedicated to combo. If I'm not expecting much combo in a given meta, I could free up a ton of space for additional hate against landstill, burn, etc. and clinch the victory against decent matchups. For this type of meta, what sideboard changes would you consider? I really like Hokori, and would likely add the fourth copy of some of the 3-ofs currently in the main, esp. Cataclysm. In my somewhat casual meta, getting rid of their land is often worth the game. Counter to what a lot of people have been attempting, I very seldomly side out Cat, and very often bring in the 4th. I wonder if it's just that I see fewer Goyfs and 'Stalkers, or am I playing the deck wrong?

P.S. I know I'm playing the deck wrong. I was holding Mangara and two Plains with an untapped Vial at 3 and I let him take Mangara with a Thoughtseize. Stupid stupid stupid...

P.P.S.: Wisping their Figures of Destiny is kinda fun.

Finn

01-06-2009, 09:50 AM

Maëlig

01-07-2009, 07:37 AM

I'm currently fooling around with what is probably a poor concept, but you never know until you've tried, right?
The idea is to try to fit meekstone in D&T. It's a card I've always loved but never quite managed to make use of it in legacy. I'm sure it has potential in the current meta though, against all the noughts, goyfs and stalkers running around.
I quickly decided to go with the rebels and taxes (my version of D&T featuring wayfarer and Lin Sivvi) rather than the classic shell, for it has more synergies and doesn't feature flickerwisp and stonecloaker which don't go well with meekstone.
Here's a first shot:
// Lands
12 [IN] Plains (3)
3 [LG] Karakas
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
1 [4E] Mishra's Factory

// Creatures
4 [TSP] Serra Avenger
3 [TSP] Mangara of Corondor
3 [ON] Weathered Wayfarer
4 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 [ON] Whipcorder

// Spells
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
4 [DS] AEther Vial
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [6E] Meekstone
3 [SHM] Niveous Wisps

Some explanations.
First of all, I have to point out that this is largely untested. I'm just throwing an idea to think about, it might very well turn out not to work great. I don't pretend to have achieved anything here, don't get me wrong.
I've removed isamaru and grunt from the deck. This will seem like an heresy to many of you, but I think they are the right cuts. The former isn't so much needed since the deck as a whole isn't so aggro-ish, and I already have quite alot of 1cc spells. The latter is doubly anti-synergic with meekstone: it stays tapped under it obviously, but it also partly holds the same role (handling goyfs and stalkers). I'm a bit worried that those cuts make the number of threats in the deck too low, though.
This made space to fit a single whipcorder fetchable with Lin (which I've also upped to 4, since it is the key card of the deck and has a giant "kill me" sign on top of its head) to tap creatures under meekstone. You'll also notice the niveous wisps which can at worst be cycled eot on one of our creatures if you have no other target. What I like about this concept is that just as the rebel and land engines, no cards are dead on their own (except for meekstone agaisnt certain decks obviously). On the other hand, it is largely a metagame guess which might turn out to be a bad one (basically, if your opponent isn't playing aggro-control).

Thoughts and comments?

chmoddity

01-12-2009, 01:34 PM

So the control matchup is probably improved by these changes. But are you actually beating Landstill? Are there any other control decks you are beating with this design? There seem to be only the angels and knights to attack with. Everything else is a support card. I dunno, it just looks like it is very slow.

Also, I am used to randomly screwing opponents who use their graveyards. You don't get any of that here. Whatever the benefits, I am pretty sure you are not going to improve the majority of matchups.

But you were talking about Meekstone. If I were using it I would have Goldmeadow Harrier instead of Niveous Wisps.

Curby

01-12-2009, 02:18 PM

Kirby, you make a pretty good point about just letting the combo matchup go. I have to say that Glowriders are certainly not dedicated to combo, though. But if we were to just cede this one, what sorts of things would you replace those spots with?

I'd round out the sets of

Grunt
Samurai
Cataclysm
Oblivion Ring

and probably keep trying Hokori. Kataki might be good in an Artifact-heavy meta.

As we've said, this deck is very customizable to any given meta, so uses for the extra slots will vary. My main interest is keeping aggro down and improving control matchups. I'm open to suggestions!

Btw, Canonist should also do quite well against Tribal decks (Gobs! Elves! Merfs!) that like to draw and cast a ton of critters a turn. Gobs gets around this the easiest, and merfs have Vial, but you hamstring their countermagic when they want to cast a threat. With the option of 4 Cataclysms in the deck though, I'm not sure that critter swarms are quite so dangerous, but again, the side is all about making MUs better. (I guess what I'm saying here is that Canonist might find uses aside from anti-combo.)

Finn

01-19-2009, 11:22 AM

Actually, I am about ready to shelve my Tivadars in favor of Glowriders permanently. Glowrider is just useful in such a wide range of matches where Tivadar, although a bomb, only works in that one. And Gobs just aren't as popular as they were. If that works out then the combo matches could be decent. You have to be foolish to take a monowhite deck like this into a combo dominated meta, but I don't mind using 8 slots to make it winnable against the occasional opponent. For something like Chicago, this would almost certainly be my plan.

Charlatan

01-19-2009, 06:34 PM

@ Finn:
I'm a new member of this forum, and I love your deck. Congratulations.
Well, and about combo: I've win some matches against combo decks using 4x Ethersworn Canonist and 4x Orim's Chant.

It's no an ease match, but you still having a chance to win.
And as you were talking, there is glowrinder to help. I wouldn't care use 10 sb's slots for combo, because the deck has very good matches against aggro-control/aggro decks.

Ty you all!!

CaptShetz

01-21-2009, 06:57 PM

I'm also new to these forums, but I am starting to break into using D&T. I ran it in a local 20 man and came out on top. Now I want to see D&T at the top at GP: Chicago... even if it's not me. :)

I'm a bit reluctant to completely pitch my SB plan against combo. Yes, 11 of my SB cards come in against combo, and it is my worst MU (4 Canonist, 4 Chant [I'm running Abeyance out of necessity atm], 3 Glowrider). But, I've also won combo MUs on the back of this disruption. With some added luck, I've won entire matches against things like CRET Belcher.

Also, I think 4 Canonist is something we should consider boarding in for the burn MU. I know some people seem to think they are only good in the combo MU, but I've seen too many games end with triple bolt or a bolt into fireblast or something like that, and a turn or two can make the difference (especially if I am able to swords a Grunt or something). The Glowriders are also useful against Burn (and other aggro-control and control decks).

So really, the only dedicated slot for combo is the 4 Orim's Chant. I don't think that is so bad.

Now, the other 4 cards for the SB seem pretty obvious, rounding out the playsets of Oblivion Ring, Samurai, and Grunt (unless you don't maindeck Cataclysm).

georgjorge

01-24-2009, 10:09 AM

I don't know how often you use Oblivion Ring on big creatures, but if it's often, maybe this card could be considered...

Intrepid Hero 2W
Creature - Human Soldier

Tap: Destroy target creature
with power 4 or greater.

Vial-able and resuable, but a turn slower. Should be pretty good against Aggro Loam, Dreadstill, Faerie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Team America, and Goyfs or 'Stalkers in general. If your early game is already VERY good, you might even cut a Swords for one of those...

Also, the new card from Conflux

Knight of the Reliquary 1GW
Creature - Human Knight

Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1
for each land card in your graveyard.
Tap, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains:
Search your library for a land card,
put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

might be worth a green splash since I saw some lists using Weathered Wayfarer, and this gives you the effect unconditionally. You'd use fetchlands anyway to at least make it 3/3 when it enters play, and have it grow each turn.

Tanarin

01-24-2009, 02:11 PM

Knight of the Reliquary 1GW
Creature - Human Knight

Knight of the Reliquary gets +1/+1
for each land card in your graveyard.
Tap, Sacrifice a Forest or Plains:
Search your library for a land card,
put it into play, then shuffle your library.
2/2

might be worth a green splash since I saw some lists using Weathered Wayfarer, and this gives you the effect unconditionally. You'd use fetchlands anyway to at least make it 3/3 when it enters play, and have it grow each turn.

Hmm...well plays well with Flagstones, that's for sure, though it doesn't play well if you run SotPC. If you run Teeg though, that means you probably lose Cataclysm due to that interaction. I guess if you ran this route, maybe run Goyf as an additional beater.

I don't know about D&T running it to TBH. If anything I could see this n some sort of new Aggro Loam variant if anything.

Barook

01-24-2009, 02:20 PM

Hmm...well plays well with Flagstones,

Except that Flagstones is neither a Plains nor a Forest...

Tanarin

01-24-2009, 03:15 PM

Except that Flagstones is neither a Plains nor a Forest...

I never said you would sac it to the card, but you could definitely fetch for it depending on what you have on board already.

CaptShetz

01-25-2009, 09:48 AM

I never said you would sac it to the card, but you could definitely fetch for it depending on what you have on board already.

Flagstones also plays well with the Knight if you run x4, since you can double sac them to the legendary rule and give your guy +2/+2.

I am a bit leery of adding him to D&T though, since D&T typically strives to remove as much GY as possible (MD Samurai and Grunts, for example).

I also don't think Intrepid Hero is very good. I can see drawing him and needing the removal NOW, not next turn (and that is assuming he survives). How is he better than Mangara? He only kills big creatures, Mangara can remove anything from the game, and the deck is built around abusing Mangara. I don't see the same potential in Intrepid Hero.

uberfrank

01-28-2009, 05:13 PM

It might not be the right deck to fit that trick because of mono white and all, but Tidehollow Sculler has some crazy interaction with getting bounced/flickered as it comes into play. You get the same 2 for 1 as the O-ring if I'm not mistaken. Food for thoughts... :smile:

Hmm, already suggested!

CleverPetriDish

01-29-2009, 03:48 PM

I play Tidehollow Sculler, Dark Confidant, and Thoughtseize in my Wb D+T build. The only problem I have come across is that I really want to do this in the conversion:

Oblivion Ring -> Vindicate
Flickerwisp -> Tidehollow Sculler
Samurai -> Dark Confidant
Cataclysm -> Thoughtseize

But then I lose a lot of the cool interactions this deck can do. Flickerwisp is one of the best cards to combine with Oblivion Ring and Tidehollow Sculler. So I had to take Serra Avengers out instead. That isn't exactly perfect either. The bottom line is that there are just too many guys to fit into the deck. I will say that my combo matchup is probably the best of any D+T deck out there. And my control matchup has improved since I made the switch. But a lot of the previously "pretty good" matchups have slid into "not so good" range.

Finn

01-30-2009, 04:58 PM

Yeah, Petri. I have noticed the same annoying problems trying to play black. In a sense, Dark Confidant is the perfect addition to this deck. And black is the perfect color to splash. And I have splashed for black twice. But then, there are all these tiny nitpicks that prevent me from keeping it. grrr

CleverPetriDish

02-02-2009, 01:03 PM

No thanks on the Knight of the Reliquary. It's a cool card, but I don't think it is going to work out. Gaddock Teeg, yes. Tarmo, possibly. But not this guy. D+T's creatures have to remain by and larg disruptive or you just have Angel Stompy w/out the Angel.

Does anyone plan on trying out Path to Exile?

memnarch

02-03-2009, 08:33 PM

First thanks too Finn and all the early developers of the deck. Its a blast to play, it feels like white weenie back in mirrodin kamigawa T2 era. I have been having great success with it against a wide range of decks. Good threshold decks, especially with countertop can prove troublesome. But Aether Vial and Flicker bouncing helps much, along with O-rings and Mangara. Other type of aggro control can be troublesome like Merfolk. Storm combo is difficult but I don't get much of that in it seems. I was surprised how well it can bounce back from stacks, dragon stompy and even goblins pre board. I really like Circle of Protection Red. It just helps against burn a lot which would otherwise be fairly difficult, glow rider helps with that too. What I really like most is the stability of the basic lands and I would feel confidant taking against a diverse field in a tournament. But please offer any suggestions in what I have a D&T deck tweaked to a largely control and aggro field. I do get goblins enough to where I like having ghostly prison and circle of protection. And enough bastard elf aggro decks where I really enjoy the sweeper: keg.
:wink:

15 plains
4 karakas

4 mangara
3 isamaru
2 jotun grunt
4 serra avenger
4 figure of destiny
4 flickerwisp

4 umezawa's jitte
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
4 oblivion ring
4 powder keg

SB:

1 tormod's crypt
2 jotun grunt
4 ghostly prison
4 circle of protection red
4 glowrider

here is color breakdown

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k256/djgiga4/colorbreakdown.jpg

Curby

02-04-2009, 03:38 AM

But please offer any suggestions in what I have a D&T deck tweaked to a largely control and aggro field.

Have you tried Finn's list? It's made expressly for aggro and control, and has a very tough time against combo. You gave some reasons that the cards you added are good, but I'm not convinced that they're better.

Keg is great for killing large swarms of stuff, but so is Cataclysm, and the original list can better exploit that, with cards such as Flagstones. The deck can cast Cataclysms two turns in a row with nothing but land!

Once you have 4 Cats between the maindeck and side, tribal swarms of all types become easier to handle as well. I wonder if you really need those CoPs. Between your point removal, combat tricks, sweepers, and Tividar in the side, Goblins shouldn't be too difficult to handle. If burn is a problem you've probably still got better options.

Figure of Destiny is huge, but not very tricky, and the deck revolves around tricks. Having more grave hate in the form of maindecked Samurai and Stonecloaker would mean you don't need random stuff like a single Crypt in the side, plus Samurai and Stonecloaker can help out in the first game.

4 Jittes could work in a aggro-heavy/burn-heavy meta, but you'll probably end up seeing more than you want to. 4 Mangaras are certainly too many.

I wonder if you chose these cards based on available resources, or if you think they're superior. In the end you shouldn't change something that works for you, but only if you're sure nothing would work better. If you haven't tried a more traditional list, I'd give it a shot. =)

Maëlig

02-04-2009, 05:24 AM

Have you tried Finn's list? It's made expressly for control
Uh-uh, control is one of the worst MU with the classic build. At least against combo you have some very effective hate (which isn't always enough, admitedly).

I agree with everything else kirbysdl said on your build though. Looks a bit strange to me, ESPECIALLY the lack of cataclysm MD in what you describe as a "largely control and aggro field". Also, seems to me that you're a bit low on lands.

memnarch

02-04-2009, 12:13 PM

OK yes I did start out with Finn's build. Then after every game I thought what would have been good against that and I add or change something. All the creatures in there are fairly large. Figure grows to 4/4 and sometimes 8/8. I see alot of fatties so thats why I put them in Goyf, Tombstalker, Doran. The build only has 19 lands but 15 are basic. I actually like this low ratio because later in the game you constantly draw answers and there is enough one drops where you can keep 1 land hands. I did have cataclysm in the side. But the land still match up is beatable. Powder keg is much quicker and solves alot of the same problems like armies of elves or Ichord. Teamed up with ghostly prison the deck has plenty of answers to aggro. The flagstones were just throwing off my tempo when I had to play two. That was my main problem it was happening often enough that the effect just isn't worth it to me. Also just giving another wasteland target. I feel like if your going to play one color might as well play basics to get around non-basic hate, which is everywhere. Stuff dies so frequently in Legacy that I really don't mind running 4 of something if its good. I almost feel like it just wins the attrition war playing more creatures then the opponent has answers too.

Curby

02-04-2009, 10:26 PM

Powder keg is much quicker and solves alot of the same problems like armies of elves or Ichord.

I can see it being better and faster against EtW/Bridge swarms, but how is it better against Elves or Goblins, which have threats everywhere between 1 and 4? Blowing away 3-drops takes 5 turns with Keg, vs 4 with Cat.

P.S. Powder Keg doesn't do much against land recursion decks and misses enchantments entirely. Samurai with Cataclysm hit everything.

GGoober

02-05-2009, 04:18 AM

Cataclysm HIT Planeswalker.

You each choose 1 artifact, 1 creature, 1 land, 1 enchantment, and sacrifice the rest i.e. the rest including Planeswalkers lol

kensook

02-05-2009, 04:53 AM

Wait I can't tell if that was sarcastic or not...

The oracle for Cataclysm: Each player chooses from the permanents he or she controls an artifact, a creature, an enchantment, and a land, then sacrifices the rest.

So they would have to sacrifice their planeswalkers?

Zir

02-05-2009, 05:04 AM

Yes they would. Planeswalkers aren't covered in Cataclysm's wording, and since it requires them to sacrifice all other permanents, any Walkers die.

Curby

02-05-2009, 10:38 AM

Whoops, too used to thinking in terms of Deed. Thanks for the clarification. This is of course even better reason to use the kitty.

Teumie

02-18-2009, 09:31 AM

Hi (since this is my first post on the source),

I have been playing D&T some while now, but I am not happy with cataclysm (in my meta at least).
Does anyone have a decent decklist which does not run cataclysm main? I encountered someone at a rather big tourney in Utrecht (NL) but i did not yet get his decklist.

Thanks

Finn

02-18-2009, 01:28 PM

Funny you should mention this:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=50057&page=62

Teumie

02-18-2009, 01:52 PM

hmm, interesting.
at the moment, i wanted to stay monowhite or maximum included one color.
with all the stiffles around here, getting three colors of mana in a deck like this sometimes gets you screwed ...
i hadn't thought about the comments you made on removing the cataclysms ... They are however in the current meta no good ...

anyway, appears i got to check the mtgsalvation forums more often then :laugh:

including an exalted angel is no option imo, however, i was considering of revisiting the old angel stompy again (well, a new version ofcourse), but will have to test that first ...

anyway, thanks for the link ;-)

ChillerKiller0815

02-20-2009, 10:37 AM

DEATH & TAXES

Lands (22):
3x Karakas
3x Flagstones of Trokair
4x Rishadan Port
12x Plains

Creatures(21):
4x Serra Avenger
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1x Jotun Grunt
3x Flickerwisp
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Stonecloaker

Others(17):
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Oblivion Ring
3x Umezawa´s Jitte
3x Cataclysm

Graveyard ->6 (Samurai, Stonecloaker, Jotun)
Burn ->5 (9) (Jitte, Finks (Swords))
Spot-Removal (Creature) ->13 (Mangara, Jitte, Swords, O-Ring)
Swarm-Removal (Creature) ->6 (Cataclysm, Jitte)
Problem Cards (Enchantments….) ->6 (Mangara, O-Ring)
Mana intensive strategies ->10 (Mangara, Port, Cataclysm)
Counter ->8(10) (Vial, Port, (Stonecloaker))
Evasion ->9 (Serra, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker)

ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh:
ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh plays 4 Mongoose and 4 Goyf plus 1-2 others from time to time. We have 6 MD cards that should keep Goyf small and keep the opponent from reaching threshold. We have 13 removals for the goyfs and the 1-2 others (swan, predator, dragon, enforcer) and basically 15 creatures that trade with the mongoose. Counterspells can be dodged with the Vial. Counterbalance can be dealed with mangara/vial or well timed O-Ring/Port.

MUC:
Call the Skybreaker -> Flickerwisp
Shackles -> O-Ring, Mangara
Lands -> Ports, Mangara, Cataclysm

Burn:
Aside the fact we play pro red stuff and true believer in the side, we play Jitte and Swords for lifegain. The Kitchenfinks main in combination with Flickerwisp is a solid preboard gameplan (Finks +2 -> Flickewisp +2 -> apply pressure until he tries to kill Flickerwisp -> respond with Swords +3 or Stonecloaker; if he tries to kill Finks -> recursion + 2) Postboard Tivadar, CoP:R and Silver Knight are pretty solid.

Other common problemcards/-decks:
Dreadnought -> Swords, Flickerwisp, Mangara
Painter -> Cataclysm, Swords, Mangara, Flickerwisp/Vial, O-Ring
Standstill -> Vial, Response Stonecloaker, Port
Loam -> Samurai, Jotun, Stonecloaker
SotF -> See Loam + O-Ring, Mangara
Solitaire -> Port, Cataclysm, Mangara, Flickerwisp -> Enchanted Lands, Gravehate, Karakas on Serra´s Sanctum……….
Lackey (first turn) -> Swords, Isamaru
Aluren -> Mangara, Jitte with Counters, Swords, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker
Crystalline Sliver -> Cataclysm and strong creatures with Jitte
Raffinity -> Cataclysm is a house, Swords make sure you get there

Combo:
We basically need to get really lucky.

I believe one of the most underestimated cards in this deck is Flickerwisp. It constantly wins me game after game. I would like to even play 4.

Flickerwisp can do:
+ Tricks with Mangara and Vial
+ Combattricks with Vial
+ Tricks with Vial and O-Ring
+ with Vial it safes every card you have from a spot removal
+ Makes sure you get to keep an extra beater/land when playing cataclysm
+ Changes O-Ring Targets
+ Reset Grunt
+ Reuse Stonecloaker -> Reuse Flickerwisp
+ Reset Kitchen Finks and Lifegain
+ Free the way from Blockers
+ Good against: Isochron Scepter, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond
+ Disconnects Equipments (Jitte, Cranial Plating,….)
+ Avoids being attacked for a turn -> against creaturelight decks with big beaters it is basically a fog (Goyf, Tombstalker, Doran).
+ Solution against: Smokestack, Chalice, Dreadnought, Engineered Explosives, Vial, Powder Keg, Counterbalance, Crusher, Sea Drake
+ On top of that Flickerwisp is a 3/1 beater with evasion that needs to be dealt with and even trades with mongoose. Evasion + Jitte is a good thing as well. Even it is pretty easy to remove I don´t care if it does happen, because Flickerwisp does it´s primary job when it hits the ground. If it gets to beat I consider it as a bonus and if it gets handled it ate up removal and resources which is fine too  good for my mangara´s and serra´s.

Synergies the deck has:
Kitchenfinks + Flickerwisp
Kitchenfinks + Cataclysm
Kitchenfinks + Stonecloaker
Flickerwisp + Jotun Grunt
Flickerwisp + Vial + Mangara
Flickerwisp + Vial
Flickerwisp + Vial + O-Ring
Cataclysm + Port
Cataclysm + Flagstones
Cataclysm + Mangara
Cataclysm + Flickerwisp
Karakas + Mangara
Karakas + Isamaru
Serra + Vial
Stonecloaker + Mangara
Stonecloaker + Kitchenfinks
Stonecloaker + Jotun Grunt
Stonecloaker + Flickerwisp
Stonecloaker + Blocker

Concerning SB:
The SB varies depending on the meta I play in. Cards that see play are:

Glowrider
True Believer  (Not as useful in a bigger variety of decks -> not in MD)
CoP:R
CoP:G  Zoo, Goyf, Nimble, Mystic Enforcer, Loxodon Hierarch, Terravore, Pumped Elves, Some Slivers, Green Stompy, Doran, Troll Ascetic…..Stops every Critter from TreshDeck except Fledgling and Swan.
Orim´s Chant
Abeyance
CotV
Silver Knight (White Knight -> Got to see some Zombies, Suicide, TA, Tombstalker Decks + Snuff Out and similar removal spells are pretty common around here)
Tivadar of Thorn
O-Ring
Runed Halo
Disentchant / Seal of Cleansing
Wrath of God/Cataclysm
Thorn of Amethyst

Just wanted to ask if you see some of the stuff pointed out above a little different or if you have different thoughts and want something to add.

havi

02-22-2009, 05:36 PM

This is my first real post in a thread that has nothing to do with Tournament reports or announcements so you can take anything I say with a grain of salt. (Had to get that out of the way). I've been testing different builds of D&T for about three months and right now I've been pretty happy with my most recent build. I noticed some posts suggesting some really interesting cards and I decided to test them ALL. After a lot of blood, sweat, and Phyrexian Dreadnoughts tooling on me I came up with this list.

Critters [21]

4x Serra Avenger
4x Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3x Mangara of Corondor
2x Isamaru
2x Viridian Shaman
2x Stonecloaker

Sorcerizzles [3]

3x Cataclysm

Instanities [4]

4x Swords to Plowshares

Artifacts [7]

4x Aether Vial
3x Jitte

Enchantifiers [3]
Oblivion Ring

Landscapes [23]

6x Plains
2x Forests
1x Savannah
3x Flagstones of Troikair
4x Wastelands
3x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Windswept Heath
1x Flooded Strand
1x Wooded Foothill

Sideboard [15]

4x Aethersworn Cannonist
4x Abeyance
3x Krosan Grip (the card not the set)
3x Tormods Crypt
1x ?
I figure I should explain some of the card choices I made, so here it goes. First off is shaman in the main. It may seem counter intuitive to run a card that has the possibility of blowing up any one of 7 main deck cards but its also just as likely to blow up opposing jittes, vials, dreadnoughts, cranial platings, lion's eye diamonds, ravagers, master of etheriums, lotus blooms, engineered explosives, powder kegs, null rod, etc etc. Every card I've listed so far I've blown up with shaman by either playing her or vialing her out. Not once have I had to blow up one of my trinkets. And blowing up a dreadnought is priceless, it really is.

Now onto Knight of the Reliquary. When I first caught this card in the spoiler I thought it was neat but useless. But then someone brought up the idea of its inclusion in the deck and it got the wheels turning. Shes not a tarmogoyf but its easy for her to get unmanageable and then you combine that with her ability to tutor for lands like Flagstones, Wastelands, and Maze of Ith she becomes even more amazing. I cannot count how many times she has saved my ass from a huge fatty that I could not deal with by keeping them in check with Maze until I drew my answer. So far I've been more than happy with her inclusion and I couldn't fathom cutting her from the list.

And then theres Knight of the White Orchid. He fetches lands. When I need them. And he has first strike, which oddly enough, becomes relevant. Thats all that I have to say about him.

I've considered Teeg, but he shuts down Cataclysm. I don't have Tarmogoyfs and KOR has eaten enough goyfs that I don't really miss his unsightly looking face. My side is a mess, but so am I so that works out for me.

In my gauntlet for testing there is Dreadstill, Sui B, Affinity, TEPS, Ichorid, Team America, and other randoms. So far this list has been testing pretty well so tell me what you think.