[Deck] Death and Taxes

[c2232]

Very interested in your batterskull-as-sb and leonin main. Did you feel more punished or rewarded over the course of the tournament by those choices?

I have loved both choices for a long time, i have been running that setup for about 6 months now and have never regretted it.

[iatee]

Another question for you, bahra and any other w/r player - do we feel like the 3 magus 2 recruiter split is pretty locked in as optimal? I've been playing 2/2 but often feel like I want 2 magus 3 recruiters rather than the opposite. Magus does have its 'I'm a grey ogre' g1s, whereas recruiter is at worst, slow, and when you need it to be a magus, it's a magus.

[c2232]

Another question for you, bahra and any other w/r player - do we feel like the 3 magus 2 recruiter split is pretty locked in as optimal? I've been playing 2/2 but often feel like I want 2 magus 3 recruiters rather than the opposite. Magus does have its 'I'm a grey ogre' g1s, whereas recruiter is at worst, slow, and when you need it to be a magus, it's a magus.

i like the current split but i could see changing it, i have to play it a bit more but i am really interested in exploring a more tutorish type of style.

[xavidp]

Hello c2232,

You think the imperial recruiter is 100% necessary? Because i haven't got recruiters and i don't want to spend that money.

Thank you and Congrats!

[Bahra]

Hello c2232,

You think the imperial recruiter is 100% necessary? Because i haven't got recruiters and i don't want to spend that money.

Thank you and Congrats!

I would say that Imperial Recruiter is the most important part of the splash by now, but actually just all the pieces we splash for are super powerful. And Imperial Recruiter was just what the splash was missing. I would only play the red splash for fun if not for the Imperial Recruiters which makes it a powerful alternative to mono white.


Just gonna add that I've played 3 dailies now with the green splash and I am not impressed. I've gone a combined 3-5 with the dek cand I keep losing to the match ups that the red splash fixes or makes even, namely Elves and Infect.

[c2232]

I would say that Imperial Recruiter is the most important part of the splash by now, but actually just all the pieces we splash for are super powerful. And Imperial Recruiter was just what the splash was missing. I would only play the red splash for fun if not for the Imperial Recruiters which makes it a powerful alternative to mono white.


Just gonna add that I've played 3 dailies now with the green splash and I am not impressed. I've gone a combined 3-5 with the dek cand I keep losing to the match ups that the red splash fixes or makes even, namely Elves and Infect.

I agree that the recruiters are really good, i think you could run without them though if you really wanted to though i think just straight mono white is probably better than a splash for magus.

Please, tell me about this green splash

[redtwister]

@C2232
Congrats!

What would you replace for Fiend Hunter?

[c2232]

@C2232
Congrats!

What would you replace for Fiend Hunter?

i think i am going to toy around with the mindcensor, relicwarder, and 1 flickerwisp. the fiend hunter is probably great, i thought about it multiple time while holding a recruiter and needing to deal with a creature. i also kinda want to try the new 3cmc thalia, i doubt its very good but who knows.

[Curby]

Just gonna add that I've played 3 dailies now with the green splash and I am not impressed. I've gone a combined 3-5 with the dek cand I keep losing to the match ups that the red splash fixes or makes even, namely Elves and Infect.

Goes back to what I said a few days ago about build performance with respect to tourney size, pilot familiarity, etc. I wonder about the variety of decks and variety of opponents that you're likely to find, and the effects of 3-4 round tournaments on perceptions of deck performance.

If you've played 8 rounds and faced Elves and Infect more than once each, that says "skewed meta" to me, at least based on my understanding of a North American paper Magic meta or even global (i.e. GP-scale) meta. If Lille or Seattle are 50+% Elves+Infect, something's weird with Legacy.

8 rounds in an apparently skewed meta is an EXTREMELY small sample size upon which to base conclusions for performance in a larger context.

You've obviously more experience with the Red splash than the Green. Your results still make a valid data point, but it would be nice to hear from some more experienced Green splash players.

You're also a well-known proponent of the Red splash, which may affect the results. I'm not saying you're trying to sabotage your experiences with Green, but confirmation bias works in subtle ways. (Thoughts like "This can't possibly be as good as Red, can it?" can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.)

The only conclusions I can draw are:

1) The red splash has been quite effective in MTGO dailies. Conversely, if MTGO dailies are overrun with creature-based combo (that's what I'm calling Elves and Infect), green is likely the worse choice there.
2) Mono-white still has had the best track record in large paper magic events (say 8+ swiss rounds).

I'm not saying Red's bad or Green's better. But jumping to conclusions doesn't help advance the deck.

2c :cool:

[iatee]

Until more people are playing the red splash in large tournaments, the fact that mono-white continues to perform better is not very meaningful. Most people don't just have imperial recruiters sitting around at home and will be hesitant to spend that much money on something they're not sure about - this will likely limit the # of people testing this build for a long time.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

I would say that Imperial Recruiter is the most important part of the splash by now, but actually just all the pieces we splash for are super powerful. And Imperial Recruiter was just what the splash was missing. I would only play the red splash for fun if not for the Imperial Recruiters which makes it a powerful alternative to mono white.


Just gonna add that I've played 3 dailies now with the green splash and I am not impressed. I've gone a combined 3-5 with the dek cand I keep losing to the match ups that the red splash fixes or makes even, namely Elves and Infect.
I'm curious as to what you're losing against. I don't really see how losing to Elves even half the time is possible with the config green gets you. They are forced to go aggro, which more often than not, sucks for that deck. I'd like to take on some Infect pro to see what trouble besets the DnT player like you've mentioned. I can't get behind the fact that every Infect player I've beaten is, in fact, bad. The matchup is a challenge, but I never feel straight overwhelmed.

You obviously know how to pilot DnT, but damn, I've never not come away with a winning record with Wg. I have to assume something went horrible awry.

[matty]

Isn't this white and green deck you guys are talking about called Maverick?

[Barook]

Isn't this white and green deck you guys are talking about called Maverick?
Maverick is based around GSZ and mana dorks, while Wg Taxes uses Port and Vial, among other things.

[matty]

Maverick is based around GSZ and mana dorks, while Wg Taxes uses Port and Vial, among other things.

Ah ok I'm sorry. I've been out of Magic for about a year or so. Has the mono white version of this deck been performing poorly lately? Is that why there is so much talk of splashing red and green?

[redtwister]

Isn't this white and green deck you guys are talking about called Maverick?

No, it isn't. It started literally as a splash, primarily for 1-2 Gaddock Teeg, but now the builds (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?comment=12090) typically use 1-2 Qasali Pridemage in place of 1-2 Phyrexian Revoker thanks to OmniTell and maybe a 1-of Sylvan Library in the absence of something nifty like Recruiter. The sideboard (http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?comment=12096) uses a couple Choke, but nothing else G. That is a long way from Maverick and, despite predictions with the original build, which was a response to the introduction of Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise, it hasn't inevitably led to Maverick.

Is it better than Imperial Taxes? Aside from what has been said about specific match-ups, which is what we have to reckon, probably not. Turning your opponent's mana into Mountains only is pretty awesome. So is tutoring the right thing at the right time. Mana denial + tutor is a ton of power in a very clear way that can shut down whole decks (good luck casting anything in BUG at that point...), whereas Teeg + Qasali with a singleton Sylvan Library is more about the soft lock and some extra aggression. Unlike Imperial Taxes, a protectable Teeg finishes off Miracles if you play right, whereas against a smart Miracles player, turn 3 or 4 Magus may not be much of anything. Wg is also better against Omnitell. Against Elves, especially after siding into an excellent sweeper, well, as good as Teeg is there, you still have to fend off an endless array of weenies when you take away their tutors and you need to find equipment quickly. And again, against something like BUG, a resolved Magus with a Mom out is kinda GG since they can't fetch or cast their relevant removal.

I like them both, despite the inherent risk of the mana base, and even though no one has played it, the Mono-W version from the Big Magic Open (http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9124&d=252094&f=LE) in Japan is still an awesome build, and one I don't think any of us really tried out very much. There is something really nasty about locking down fetchlands turn 2 and then having 8 land destruction lands plus 4 Rishadan Port. I'm pretty sure Infect and Omnitell will have problems with that, and so will Elves, since they will have a hard time ever fetching. Oh yeah, and Ghost Quarter can destroy basics...

So for my part, I think Death and Taxes is not only still one of the strongest anti-meta decks in Legacy, it also has enormous variety right now, compared to when I started playing it in early 2013(?) when we talked about the 5 flex slots and everything else seemed locked.

@Everyone
I am very interested in Vryn Wingmare. I know 2W isn't great, but being able to stack Thalia's effect feels better against everything except Elves and Merfolk, and a flying 2/1 isn't bad.

For example, I would immediately take it as a 1-of over Aven Mindcensor because it stacks a specific, powerful taxing effect, and it would function like Mindcensor does with Leonin Arbiter. Making every cantrip after turn 3 cost 2U feels pretty good.

Not sure what comes out though or if it could be played outside the mono-W build.

DnT, the "Thalia rides a Wingmare, your argument is invalid" edition?
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Vryn Wingmare
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls

4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Grafdigger's Cage

Or going BMO...
7 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Flickerwisp
1 Serra Avenger

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Council's Judgment
1 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Council's Judgment
1 Grafdigger's Cage

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Is it better than Imperial Taxes? Aside from what has been said about specific match-ups, which is what we have to reckon, probably not. Turning your opponent's mana into Mountains only is pretty awesome.
I have to wonder what people are playing against. I mean, this ain't no pissing contest or anything, but I'm very confident about taking on any non-Belcher/Tin Fins matchup. Just as mentioned earlier, BUG with Toxic Deluge maindeck - somewhat rare - is the only fair deck I'm having to really struggle to grind out.

Keep in mind I'm approaching the meta are more or less GP decks to beat. That means Choke is viable A LOT of the time, and especially against decks like Miracles - by far the most winningest deck overall right now according to MTGTop8 - a superior option to Magus of the Moon. This shouldn't be about, 'does Wg or Wr do better against random deck X or deck y', it should be about 'which does better against the top of the field?'

Right now that is:

1. Miracles
2. OmniTell
3. Grixis
4. BUG Delver/Midrange
5. EsperBlade
6. ANT

Miracles is at about 15% and the rest hover at around 8-10%, which means this is over half of what you want to prepare to beat. For Miracles, OmniTell, and Grixis - top 3, mind you - Choke is better than Moon effects. For the first two, you're going to see a lot of basic Islands, and against Grixis, changing their lands into mtns with a deck full of Lightning Bolts might be very short lived.

BUG I'll concede is easy mode with Moon effects, and Wg has to play more like mono-DnT, which is still favorable. [A quick check of the most recent BUG lists, Delver, Cascade, or otherwise, shows very little maindeck Toxic Deluge, if included at all, as most favor playing True Name Nemesis.]

Esperblade, with Choke and Pridemage vs. Imperial Recruiter, we *have* to be talking a wash in favorability here, if Wg possibly more so, but as it pertains to ANT, Teeg is a much better option than Recruiter or Magus.

So there you have it. I don't doubt Wr is good against that field, but I have to believe Wg pulls off those particular matchups better. And those are the ones that matter most right now.

Also, you'd save about a grand not having to buy Recruiters.

[jrsthethird]

Also, you'd save about a grand not having to buy Recruiters.

Not if you play on MODO.

(Who am I kidding? I don't play this deck. I just saw your username on the latest posts and had to say I love it.)

[Bahra]

I have to wonder what people are playing against. I mean, this ain't no pissing contest or anything, but I'm very confident about taking on any non-Belcher/Tin Fins matchup. Just as mentioned earlier, BUG with Toxic Deluge maindeck - somewhat rare - is the only fair deck I'm having to really struggle to grind out.

Keep in mind I'm approaching the meta are more or less GP decks to beat. That means Choke is viable A LOT of the time, and especially against decks like Miracles - by far the most winningest deck overall right now according to MTGTop8 - a superior option to Magus of the Moon. This shouldn't be about, 'does Wg or Wr do better against random deck X or deck y', it should be about 'which does better against the top of the field?'

Right now that is:

1. Miracles
2. OmniTell
3. Grixis
4. BUG Delver/Midrange
5. EsperBlade
6. ANT

Miracles is at about 15% and the rest hover at around 8-10%, which means this is over half of what you want to prepare to beat. For Miracles, OmniTell, and Grixis - top 3, mind you - Choke is better than Moon effects. For the first two, you're going to see a lot of basic Islands, and against Grixis, changing their lands into mtns with a deck full of Lightning Bolts might be very short lived.

BUG I'll concede is easy mode with Moon effects, and Wg has to play more like mono-DnT, which is still favorable. [A quick check of the most recent BUG lists, Delver, Cascade, or otherwise, shows very little maindeck Toxic Deluge, if included at all, as most favor playing True Name Nemesis.]

Esperblade, with Choke and Pridemage vs. Imperial Recruiter, we *have* to be talking a wash in favorability here, if Wg possibly more so, but as it pertains to ANT, Teeg is a much better option than Recruiter or Magus.

So there you have it. I don't doubt Wr is good against that field, but I have to believe Wg pulls off those particular matchups better. And those are the ones that matter most right now.

Also, you'd save about a grand not having to buy Recruiters.

I think you're overlooking some things, so I'll just go over the DtB one by one;

1. Miracles

Gaddock Teeg is very good obviously, protect it with mother of runes and/or Karakas and that's probably game, Qasali Pridemage is mostly useless. More 2 drops means less resiliency to counterbalance without a vial draw.

Imperial Recruiter is absolutely unbeatable for miracles if coupled with equipment or even by itself sometimes. Imperial Recruiter finds Imperial Recruiter that sits in the hand until the first one is hit by Terminus, and you then fetch up the first one again etc. Magus of the Moon often shuts off double white and/or double blue, it shuts off fetches that miracles are very good at abusing with top. It can win games on its own but can also be completely useless or even detrimental to your gameplan

2. OmniTell

Gaddock Teeg is reasonable, Qasali Pridemage is good but keeping up the mana from turn 2 to blow up omniscience can be a pain. And even then they can still have Cunning Wish -> Trickbind or the Emrakul in hand.

Magus of the Moon does basically nothing. Imperial Recruiter finds Thalia, Leonin Relic-Warder or Ethersworn Canonist. Coupled with vials it makes for very versatile answers to the various problems that Omnitell presents.

3. Grixis

Gaddock Teeg shuts down Dig Through Time, that is it. Qasali Pridemage does nothing.

Magus of the Moon shuts down Dig Through Time and makes it so that they can only cantrip once a turn. Imperial Recruiter out grinds them and finds answers.

4. BUG Delver/Midrange

Gaddock Teeg does basically nothing, Qasali Pridemage does nothing.

Magus of the Moon wins the game on the spot, Imperial Recruiter does the same.


5. EsperBlade

Gaddock Teeg does very little, Qasali Pridemage is good against the equipment.

Magus of the Moon wins the game on the spot 90% of the time, Imperial Recruiter does the same.

6. ANT

Gaddock Teeg wins the game on the spot. Qasali Pridemage does nothing.

Magus of the Moon sometimes buys time and with Phyrexian Revoker it can lock the storm player. Imperial Recruiter is too slow.



I think that's a more fair assessment of the match ups. I didn't comment on the sideboard cards because I don't think you can argue that match ups are good based on 1 sideboard card that isn't even uncounterable OR tutorable unless you want to spend an Enlightened Tutor on it which is really bad if it gets countered.

If you instead played 3 Chokes then I'd give you that your stoneblade match up is probably pretty good. But you're still stonecold to Elves and Infect which also makes up a considerable amount of the meta.

[Bahra]

I'm curious as to what you're losing against. I don't really see how losing to Elves even half the time is possible with the config green gets you. They are forced to go aggro, which more often than not, sucks for that deck. I'd like to take on some Infect pro to see what trouble besets the DnT player like you've mentioned. I can't get behind the fact that every Infect player I've beaten is, in fact, bad. The matchup is a challenge, but I never feel straight overwhelmed.

You obviously know how to pilot DnT, but damn, I've never not come away with a winning record with Wg. I have to assume something went horrible awry.

Some pages back when infect was everywhere after Tom Ross one back to back invitationals and made top 8 at GP New Jersey, people where asking "what do you do about infect?" and "I keep losing to infect what should I do?".

I had problems with infect too, what I did was add 2 Gut Shots to the board and that seemed to magically fix all my problems. Now I have Magus of the Moon and Sudden Demise, and all of a sudden I'm never losing to infect.

Infect is such a problem because they're too fast and all their threats present a unique problem.

Glistener Elf comes down on turn 1 and you have to have Mother of Runes or Swords to Plowshares on turn 1 and even then you are still dead on turn 2 to the right combination of cards.

Inkmoth Nexus cannot be removed sorcery speed which means that a Vines of Vastwood is always great on it except if you play removal on it in the end step which means it connected.

Blighted Agent is almost impossible to interact with, it really takes advantage of the fact that we only have 4 removal spells and no way to find them. More than half the time we are just straight up dead to Blighted Agent.

Vial is mostly too slow, same for Jitte and they have tons of answers for Jitte after board which makes it a poor and expensive gameplan. Of the 3 threats Inkmoth Nexus is the easiest to deal with because we also have 4 Wasteland 4 Rishadan Port. But Blighted Agent is such a gigantic beating, and they do have Brainstorm and Ponder to find it as well.

[P-E]

could the new pegasus enters in the imperial taxes build Mark ?

[frenadol]

@Bahra:

I don't agree with many of your assessments with regards to Grixis and BUG, since apparently you completely overlooked what the opponent will do to fight you, especially post board. I'm not familiar with the MODO meta, but in paper most tempo/midrange black decks run multiples of -1/-1 sweepers (Dread of Night, Zealous Persecution, G. Charm, Sulfur Elemental) that Wr can be very weak against, seeing that you're running full sets of Flickerwisps and no way to interact with a Dread of Night in the mainboard (and only Warder in the SB, which can be killed easily and shuts off the rest of your creature base except the magi and SFM) for example.

One of the biggest strengths of Wg is how all of the creatures the green splash provides are resistant to these effects, and Qasali Pridemage is not only a mere piece of removal but also pushes for damage very early in the game, allowing you to go mor eaggressive than in other versions of DnT. You don't need to durdle around, just drop a Pridemage and a Serra Avenger and start beating and wait for the opponent to react. The deck can straight up race most of the field even when not disrupting the opponent's game plan at all, while still having the tools to do it just like mono-W does. Wg is less about spending the early game setting up the perfect lock than is to play a couple creatures and just clocking the opponent for 3-5 every turn and it's in the opponent's hand to find an answer while shutting down the most obvious ways for him to dig himself out of the hole (equipment, chumpblockers and high CMC spells) since you have the same mana denial package as mono-W does coupled with maindeck artifact removal.

The Grixis matchup is in fact very favorable thanks to the faster clock of the creature base, and having only 8-10 X/1's makes your matchup against BUG/Deathblade much easier than you might think looking at the cards alone. In these matchups more often than not the individual abilities of your creatures matter less than how beefy they are. You can straight up run 4 Pridemages and 4 Avengers without sacrificing much of the Wg gameplan and beat much harder than the opponent's puny Pyromancers and TNN's. And those creatures are very hard to kill especially when your opponents brings in all of the -1/-1 effects expecting an easy victory. Wg also has a slightly lower curve than mono-W or Wr, making you less susceptible to Daze and Wasteland effects if you don't have Vial.

Grixis/BUG also bring in artifacts post board to deal with our kit, namely Null Rod and Pithing Needle. So Qasali Pridemage with its activated ability is still a very relevant card in those matchups.

[ksmith]

Hi all, it has been spoiled yesterday I believe, but nobody is mentioning it. Do you think Hallowed Moonlight can replace Containment Priest?

[Finn]

Ksmith, some bits on how Death and Taxes (and most nonblue creature-centered decks) runs...

-You want to try hard not to let your opponent's turn end with any untapped lands on your side. That is, you want to be using all of your lands each turn. You can't be waiting around for an opponent who may or may not cheat a creature onto the battlefield that turn.
-You want to use creatures whenever possible to do the job of other kinds of cards. You need creatures to influence your opponent (and attack). Your creatures can be vialed in. Thalia makes noncreature spells painful. And so on.

This has been my long way of saying that Containment Priest is almost certainly the better choice.

[ksmith]

Maybe I was thrown off by the fact that it can exile Entreat tokens and draws a card.

[Curby]

Wg is less about spending the early game setting up the perfect lock than is to play a couple creatures and just clocking the opponent
...
In these matchups more often than not the individual abilities of your creatures matter less than how beefy they are.

Yeah, I commented on MTGS how Red's leaning more towards control and Green more towards aggro. Red seldom runs Avengers, usually has fewer Brimazi/Crusaders, c2232 dropped maindeck Batterskull, etc. Some can be explained away by Recruiter grabbing a late-game finisher, but sometimes D&T has to apply early pressure and chaining through recruiter takes pressure-sapping time (or mana).

A lot of Magic comes down to play style and preference. It's useful to develop both splashes, be honest about what their relative strengths and weaknesses are, and provide potential players with options. It's a good thing that the deck can be tuned to better fit the aggro or control roles. There doesn't have to be a single winner (but I like the debate just the same).


Maybe I was thrown off by the fact that it can exile Entreat tokens and draws a card.

I think so. :tongue: Sure it draws a card, but oftentimes costs more, isn't an enduring effect, doesn't come with a free 3/1, etc. Generally speaking, Moonlight is worse. But feel free to test it!

[c2232]

There doesn't have to be a single winner (but I like the debate just the same).

Exactly this!!! I really dig the red splash and will be looking to play it again in the DC Open. Im interested in the green splash and will probably try it out a few times...... As long as we have Thalia we have everything!

[MGB]

Exactly this!!! I really dig the red splash and will be looking to play it again in the DC Open. Im interested in the green splash and will probably try it out a few times...... As long as we have Thalia we have everything!

Was the red splash and/or Magus of the Moon a liability for you in the tournament at all? Where, say, the Plateau was worse than a Plains and/or the Magus was just a Grey Ogre?

[c2232]

Was the red splash and/or Magus of the Moon a liability for you in the tournament at all? Where, say, the Plateau was worse than a Plains and/or the Magus was just a Grey Ogre?

the plateaus were never a problem at all, i thought i would be hurting for double white but that was never the case. Magus has some effect in almost every game, burn, goblins and other mono colored decks probably wouldnt be bothered by it but you never see those at the top tables.

[Bahra]

Was the red splash and/or Magus of the Moon a liability for you in the tournament at all? Where, say, the Plateau was worse than a Plains and/or the Magus was just a Grey Ogre?

You could imagine that the plateaus being wastelandable plains, could be a liability from time to time and they are. But it is extremely rare, and having played a ton of matches with the deck by now I can assure you that you will not run out of red sources if you play your lands correctly. In my experience, people aggressively wasteland the Plateau(s) because they think they can take you off red, but that just doesn't happen if you play it right.

[iatee]

In my experience with the deck, I sometimes try to bait a wasteland w/ a plateau - that wasteland isn't hitting a more powerful land like a port or karakas, and you have relatively few red cards, all of which (g1) come on via vial at 3 anyway (or via a fetch you've been saving for when you actually need the red.)

You do have to play around stifle w/ your early fetches though, that's more relevant (it can affect your sequencing) than the plateaus themselves. But that's also not limited to the red splash.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

I think you're overlooking some things, so I'll just go over the DtB one by one;

1. Miracles

Gaddock Teeg is very good obviously, protect it with mother of runes and/or Karakas and that's probably game, Qasali Pridemage is mostly useless. More 2 drops means less resiliency to counterbalance without a vial draw.

Imperial Recruiter is absolutely unbeatable for miracles if coupled with equipment or even by itself sometimes. Imperial Recruiter finds Imperial Recruiter that sits in the hand until the first one is hit by Terminus, and you then fetch up the first one again etc. Magus of the Moon often shuts off double white and/or double blue, it shuts off fetches that miracles are very good at abusing with top. It can win games on its own but can also be completely useless or even detrimental to your gameplan

2. OmniTell

Gaddock Teeg is reasonable, Qasali Pridemage is good but keeping up the mana from turn 2 to blow up omniscience can be a pain. And even then they can still have Cunning Wish -> Trickbind or the Emrakul in hand.

Magus of the Moon does basically nothing. Imperial Recruiter finds Thalia, Leonin Relic-Warder or Ethersworn Canonist. Coupled with vials it makes for very versatile answers to the various problems that Omnitell presents.

3. Grixis

Gaddock Teeg shuts down Dig Through Time, that is it. Qasali Pridemage does nothing.

Magus of the Moon shuts down Dig Through Time and makes it so that they can only cantrip once a turn. Imperial Recruiter out grinds them and finds answers.

4. BUG Delver/Midrange

Gaddock Teeg does basically nothing, Qasali Pridemage does nothing.

Magus of the Moon wins the game on the spot, Imperial Recruiter does the same.


5. EsperBlade

Gaddock Teeg does very little, Qasali Pridemage is good against the equipment.

Magus of the Moon wins the game on the spot 90% of the time, Imperial Recruiter does the same.

6. ANT

Gaddock Teeg wins the game on the spot. Qasali Pridemage does nothing.

Magus of the Moon sometimes buys time and with Phyrexian Revoker it can lock the storm player. Imperial Recruiter is too slow.



I think that's a more fair assessment of the match ups. I didn't comment on the sideboard cards because I don't think you can argue that match ups are good based on 1 sideboard card that isn't even uncounterable OR tutorable unless you want to spend an Enlightened Tutor on it which is really bad if it gets countered.

If you instead played 3 Chokes then I'd give you that your stoneblade match up is probably pretty good. But you're still stonecold to Elves and Infect which also makes up a considerable amount of the meta.
You're definitely underselling Gaddock Teeg here. To say it does nothing vs. all those decks that run Dig Through Time, c'mon...

You mention Magus stops Dig Through time, presumably because it changes their Trops and Seas to Mountains, but only for those decks where they don't have a way to cast UU. In fact, with just one Island and a Deathrite Shaman, DtT is perfectly castable. Teeg just says "No".

Also let's go through all the rest Teeg is stopping in those decks.

1. Miracles - THE ENIRE DECK. Terminus, Entreat the Angels, Dig Through Time, Jace, Supreme Verdict... Mom + Teeg is GG on Turn 2. no additional tricks or durdling needed. Qasali is NOT useless here. Never needed to get rid of Counterbalance? Have an aggressive 3/3 attacker as a 2-drop?

2. Omni - One of the more common ways they get out of trouble is to cast their 3-4 Dig Through Times. Pre-Omni, Post-Omni, it doesn't matter. If they cast that card, they are setting themselves up to run you over.

3. Grixis - Dig Through Time shines here again. Teeg it out. Also, every Grixis list I just checked runs some combo of Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Dread of Night. Also those cards would definitely be sided in against DnT. Pridemage says "jog on" to your -1/-1 effects as well.

4. BUG Delver. Really though, if there's a problem beating BUG Delver without the use the of Moon-effects, there's a problem. Rest in Peace is still a fine enough card to beat these decks. Highlighting BUG here was only to show that Wr's best advantage against the top Decks To Beat is one that isn't a problem.

5. Stoneblade. Again, Teeg does not do "very little" here. Dig Through Time is always a huge problem, and they do have Jace to contend with, sometimes even Supreme Verdict. Also, stop their Mystics and you have uncastable Batterskull on their end, should it even stick with Pridemage out.

6. ANT. No disputes here, but just because Pridemage does "nothing" doesn't mean anything. Most DnT cards do "nothing" vs. Storm. Adding green in general is a way to bump up the 2-drop combo stopper body count. Short of making the commitment to Ethersworn Canonist maindeck (not always relevant), green splash is the only option for this endeavor.

Did I mention how Sylvan Library is mostly going to win any match if you land it? Smoothing out draws + extra cards is no slouch.

There's something to be said of Frenadol's point from earlier. When you play green, you might have half your bodies be x/2-or-better in games 2 and 3, which means all those -1/-1 sweepers opponents are fond of end up being very lackluster.

I'm confused about how I'm "stone cold" to Elves as well, to bring up your last point. I made Wg originally because I wanted a card that was good against both Miracles and Elves in one fell swoop and Teeg is the only one that fits that bill. Show me an Elves player who doesn't struggle against a deck where Teeg or Containment Priest is hitting the board on turn 2, and I'll show you a guy lighting a Black Lotus on fire for the plain fun of it.

[Barook]

Miracles does have outlets to Teeg + Mom, though, namely Karakas and Council's Judgment.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Miracles does have outlets to Teeg + Mom, though, namely Karakas and Council's Judgment.
While that's true, the majority of recent Miracles lists don't contain Council's Judgment in their 75, and if they do, it's one copy. Good luck.

And if they find the Karakas and get to use it once, good on them. One activation is usually all they get if you've saved your Wasteland for the right card (and Karakas is that right card).

[Farone]

Anyone got a up to date list for me with the green splash? cant seem to find a good one!

[Curby]

Something like the following. There's a lot more on green over at MTGS if you want to read up on design choices.


4 AEther Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Rishadan Port
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flickerwisp
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Serra Avenger
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Something like the following. There's a lot more on green over at MTGS if you want to read up on design choices.


4 AEther Vial
4 Mother of Runes
4 Rishadan Port
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
3 Flickerwisp
3 Karakas
3 Plains
3 Savannah
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Serra Avenger
1 Sylvan Library
1 Batterskull
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
That's my 60 right there from this GPT (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=17316&iddeck=130168), though I think you added the Canopy to make 24 lands. Subtract that or Cavern, personal preference. Mr. Kirby is also advocating for the 2nd Sylvan Library, which ya know, I can't argue with. You'd have to cut a land, a creature, or an equip to make room, and that's a hard choice.

[Whitefaces]

While that's true, the majority of recent Miracles lists don't contain Council's Judgment in their 75, and if they do, it's one copy. Good luck.


One MD one SB is pretty common actually.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

One MD one SB is pretty common actually.
Well I clicked on the last 5 or 6 placers in Top 8s at TheCouncil for tourneys in the 70+ range, saw one Council's judgment. And it wasn't in Losset's list so... Just gonna assume that's the thing as of now. Maybe not representative, perhaps.

[Curby]

Whoops, I was just playing around and added too many cards to the list. Go with StT's link, definitely.

[joande]

Nevermind, it got covered earlier. :really:

[haymaker18]

You could imagine that the plateaus being wastelandable plains, could be a liability from time to time and they are. But it is extremely rare, and having played a ton of matches with the deck by now I can assure you that you will not run out of red sources if you play your lands correctly. In my experience, people aggressively wasteland the Plateau(s) because they think they can take you off red, but that just doesn't happen if you play it right.

Bahra, still settled on your current 75 for this weekend? Any changes you are considering for the GP?

[Bahra]

Bahra, still settled on your current 75 for this weekend? Any changes you are considering for the GP?

I am not 100%

I am in France now staying in a castle with a lot of good legacy players. And I'm considering moving the relic warder to the main deck. I also briefly considered moving Canonist to the main (just 1 copy) but it seemed to weak against a lot of decks.

Probably gonna find room for the relic-warder main, but we'll see.

[Whitefaces]

Canonist seems like a fine MD card at the moment.

Just looking at the DTB it's weakest in the mirror. Against Miracles it's just fine, but stops Snapcaster and makes Ponder pretty weak. TA doesn't like playing against it, and that's it's a fine matchup already. Obviously it's great vs Omni. It's great vs Grixis Pyromancer too as they really rely on chaining cantrips together.

[Gheizen64]

For GW, is Voice of Resurgence a possible card? Or probably not, it just get chumpblocked to death. It's a pity because the effect is interesting.

[Bosque]

I don't know that Voice does anything we need. Against many decks it will either be Stp'd or become a chump blockable ground beater. I think I would rather have nearly any of our other beef (Avenger, Crusader, Brimaz), or possibly even Thalia's pony from the new set.

[MGB]

Welp, Bahra dropped from the Grand Prix after 6 rounds, going 3-3. I wonder what his matchups were like. I felt like the RW DnT was really well-positioned going into GP Lille too.I look forward to hearing what he has to say about this build right now and whether the mono-white build would have fared better or not for him.

[Whitefaces]

I don't think many DnT pilots are doing well.

[Tylert]

Probably too much Omnitell :(
went to a training tournament in Paris on Tuesday. Miracles and omnitell were everywhere :)

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Probably too much Omnitell :(
went to a training tournament in Paris on Tuesday. Miracles and omnitell were everywhere :)
That's a Teeg meta for sure. The commenters were saying the big takeaways were Probe/Cabal Therapy/Young Pyromancer and Dig Through Time. Not that Teeg does anything against the first combo, but I'm thinking of adding a third Teeg to the side, as Grixis is a 4x DtT deck now. Bring in your RiPs.

[Barook]

I'm interested what else Bahra did lose to, aside from Jund.

[frenadol]

We are going back to the TC meta, just that this time it's DTT the card that's warping the format and the deck strategies. If you guys look at some of those Grixis decks they can power up a DTT as soon as turn 3 with countermagic and removal backup, and once they resolve the first other will come and it's extremely difficult to stop it. I wouldn't say that line of play is particularly worrying for Death and Taxes, but it's certainly a strategy that can very easily outtrade us through sheer card advantage, just like we had trouble against many TC based decks way back when it was legal, even in matchups that are usually very favorable, like Patriot and UR Delver.

That of course is very problematic, people have finally figured out that DTT is an absolutely busted card that can do basically the same stuff as TC but even better because it's an instant and it's much, much better at digging backbreaking silver bullets or clutch spells to hand you the matchup in a silver platter. Want TNN and Jitte combo on demand? DTT has you covered! Opponent is playing DTT too? Get some red blasts, they're free! You got your nice equipment + creature + Mom setup nearly online and ready to smash the next turn? Get a Terminus and a Brainstorm and make it all go away no problem.

[Barook]

Considering DTT has a very good chance of getting banhammered in about a week, I don't think it's worth getting your panties in a bunch over it yet.

[Vandalize]

I've been away from Magic for a while now, and since I got back (1~2 weeks ago), I saw Death and Taxes splashing red and green.

Cmon guys, can we make the dream of AEther Vial + Imperial Recruiter + SFM + Knight of the Reliquary + Gaddock Teeg + Thalia happen?

Probably 24 lands with 1~2 basics, but it should work.

Pros:
+ Imperial Recruiter would fetch everything but Flickerwisp.
+ Knight is beef (DnT somewhat lacks a Tarmogoyf sized creature).
+ Teeg is great against matchups we usually struggle against (Miracles and Elves).
+ Red can open up our removal possibilities with Lightning Bolt (after Swords to Plowshares, of course).

Cons:
- Unstable/Greedy Manabase.
- Rest in Peace is weaker (due to KotR).
- Unable to run Magus of the Moon (due to 3-colored manabase).

[Bahra]

My first loss was to Jund which was a close match where I tried my hardest but that match up is just not winnable.

I was very demoralized.

I then played against miracles in the following round and the first game I mulligan and keep 2 plains, Karakas, 2 Swords to Plowshares and Mirran Crusader. I am on the draw and my opponent goes Sensei's Divining Top into Counterbalance and I have only drawn lands at that point so I just scoop on turn 3.

Next game I have a normal draw and completely crush him. The third game I have an OK hand and I start grinding and the game is going well, 3 Terminus later I have control over the game and he is down to just lands, a top and 1 card. The card is Dig Through Time. He finds more action, he has gone through 2 Vensers and 4 Swords to Plowshares. And again he's down to his last card, I have Stoneforge with Batterskull in hand he has destroyed my Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice and his last card is Dig Through Time again that he draws and play main phase. I think for a while and decide to play around Concil's Judgement rather than a second Vendilion Clique. He finishes resolving Dig Through Time and at the end of his turn (when I activate stoneforge) he has the second Vendilion Clique. He bottoms batterskull and I never find it again. It was a mistake I think, that I played around Council's Judgement. And I would've won for sure if I had just played around the 2nd Vendilion Clique.

Then in round 6 I play against Gold Digger. And at this point I am feeling super shitty about being 3-2 and I basically already counted myself out of the GP.

I easily crush him game 1. Game 2 he kills my first couple of creatures and I am stuck with 4 lands in hand and nothing on turn 3. I grind my way back in the game after getting flooded super hard and eventually I draw gas. He is down to less than 15 cards in his library after 4 Dig Through Times before I lose and I have yet to see a vial even though I went through more than half my deck as well. The next game I don't have Vial either and I am stuck on 2 lands and he plays Jace while I still have 5 cards and 2 lands and I can't play my cards fast enough to keep myself in the game.



So I lost to Jund which I believe is the absolute worst match up for the red splash (I also lost to Jund in the sideevent on Sunday). And then I lost to Dig Through Time. I didn't expect to lose to Miracles and especially not Gold Digger but without Dig Through Time that wouldn't have happened either.

If Dig Through Time is not banned I expect that I will start calling D&T my "pet deck" instead of being a deck I take seriously and play competitively.

The fact that no Death and Taxes decks did well at GP Lille reinforces me in that opinion.

[MrGlantz]

Are you still of the opinion that the Red Splash is the best overall version of the deck? It seems the most broadly powerful, although it also seems the slowest of pure white and GW splash.

I'm mostly interested because my meta is infested with blue decks and Elves and for the life of me I hate Elves!

[Fatal]

Pick Imperial Painter with 8 blasts MD ;-) if your meta is so bad.

[Stevestamopz]

@Bahra: Thank you for writing something candid and honest. It's a refreshing change of pace for the Source IMO.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Sorry to hear Bahra went 3-3 with red Death and Taxes. Bahra, did you have any byes?

[Bahra]

Sorry to hear Bahra went 3-3 with red Death and Taxes. Bahra, did you have any byes?

I had no byes.

[c2232]

Keep your head up brother, we all have shitty showings.

[lyracian]

The fact that no Death and Taxes decks did well at GP Lille reinforces me in that opinion.
What placing do you consider for a deck to do well? The Exemplar for D&T finished 44th ahead of Elves, Shardless, Merfolk
He is on 33 points (11-4 I guess) which is 1 win away form being top 16.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/day-2-exemplar-decklists-2015-07-05

[Madsk]

Mats went 7-2 day one and startet 4-0 day two but lost last two. One on camera

[Luca Grease]

If Dig Through Time is not banned I expect that I will start calling D&T my "pet deck" instead of being a deck I take seriously and play competitively.

The fact that no Death and Taxes decks did well at GP Lille reinforces me in that opinion.

I know a lot of posters here will dismiss this comment as something said in frustration after an unlucky tournament, but I have been feeling this way for a while. However, since I am not an established tournament player, I've been reluctant to say it because I would have been condescendingly told that I'm not playing the deck "right". I genuinely think that this deck was one of the strongest, if not the strongest in the meta until a couple of years ago. But other decks have evolved and gotten so many new powerful cards (hello, TNN) in the meantime while we are more or less stuck in the same place. Treasure cruise before and now Dig Through Time are really pushing us out of tier1 status, imo. Matchups that were traditionally very favorable (RUG, Sneak and Show) have been replaced by either even (BUG, Grixis) or unfavorable ones (Omni-Tell), and even decks that we used to crush carelessly have now learned how to play against us and adjusted their maindecks and sideboards accordingly.

Fortunately, I do think that Dig Through Time will soon get the axe, just like TC before it: the meta is just too homogenous and, frankly, boring right now. But until it doesn't, I wouldn't bring this deck to a large tournament and expect to do particularly well...

[Stevestamopz]

But other decks have evolved and gotten so many new powerful cards (hello, TNN) in the meantime while we are more or less stuck in the same place. Treasure cruise before and now Dig Through Time are really pushing us out of tier1 status, imo. Matchups that were traditionally very favorable (RUG, Sneak and Show) have been replaced by either even (BUG, Grixis) or unfavorable ones (Omni-Tell), and even decks that we used to crush carelessly have now learned how to play against us and adjusted their maindecks and sideboards accordingly.

Reminds me of this quote from Jim Davis on his article (http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27669_Funeral-For-A-Friend.html) talking about the death of Goblins



Cavern of Souls made our very good matchup against blue decks even better, and for a while the deck saw a mild resurgence.
However, every other deck got wave after wave of good new cards. First it was Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull, which was beatable with Tin Street Hooligan. Then came Emrakul, the Eons torn (and later Omniscience), which powered up the Show and Tell combo decks. After that Delver of Secrets gave blue decks a way to actually kill us quickly, which was often their biggest problem. Then came Deathrite Shaman, a Birds of Paradise almost any deck could play that for some unfathomable reason is a 1/2 and not a 1/1. After that the legend rule changed, and Elves got much more powerful Gaea's Cradles and Craterhoof Behemoth. Then came Abrupt Decay.
Still, we endured. Matchups that were once very easy were still favorable, but we had to work harder and harder for each win.
Then they printed True Name Nemesis

I really hope Death and Taxes doesn't become the next "Goblins", but if the blue decks keep getting more and more toys which make them faster and with more ways to outgrind us whilst we're left out in the dark...

[Ralf]

Hello,

Quick report with Imperial Tax @ GP Lille.

Round 1 vs Eternal Garden (Win 2/1)

G1= Magus equipped with SOFI sealed the deal
G2= EOT Marit Lage kicked my ass
G3= Same as G1

Round 2 vs Aggro Loam (Win 2/0)

G1= Early BSK with stone protected by Mom is enough
G2= Magus /kiss

Round 3 vs Burn (Loss 2/1)

G1= BSK for the win
G2= Flooded on land when my oppo was drawing gas
G3= Mull to 5. My only out was to play BSK when my oppo was @ 1 card in hand and it had to a "destructive revelry"

Round 4 vs BUG Delver (Win 2/0)

G1= Magus sealed the deal
G2= Same as G1

Round 5 vs Omni (loss 2/1)

G1= Lose
G2= Win with a T2 Cavern + Thalia
G3= Almost won that one after a mull to 5. Sudden shock on Canonist is real...

Round 6 vs Oops all spells (Win 2/1)

G1= lose without drawing my first card (lost the toss)
G2= Mother-> Thalia-> Canonist
G3= Chancellor of the Annex on T0, but luckily I had cavern in hands into Thalia G2 ! Ouch...

What a nightmare. I thought I was out of contention after the G1. But dream happens.

Round 7 vs Punishing Maverick (Loss 2/0)

G1= Made a couple of misplays which cost me a pretty easy game...
G2= Get flooded...

Drop.

Sunday -> @Bazar of Duals a friend borrowed the deck and went -> 5/1/1 and 650 BOM points.

Well, at least, somehow we made money.

[Barook]

I don't think we should be worried about getting a stream of new cards - Wizards loves white weenies and thus, hatebears. Whether or not they fit into your small frame of flex cards is a different topic.

That said, we should be hellbent on increasing the consistency of the deck as I still see it as one of our core problems. While blue decks can filter their crappy draws with cantrips, we're boned if our deck decides to give us crap.

I think we need to be more unconventional than before, like Bahra was with Magus of the Moon.

E.g. I wouldn't mind going deeper into green for Noble Hierarch, KotR and Sylvan Library (maybe even Evolutionary Leap) while still trying to strike a balance between colored and coloress lands. Is it going to suck? Probably - but we can't know until somebody tried to get the numbers right and has tested it throughly.

That, or joining the dark side with Brainstorm + other blue consistency tools without going full retard running :u::u: cards. Assuming Sensei's Divining Top doesn't get banned, I could see it being a thing alongside fetches/SFM - for all splashes. Roughly 20% (after calculating more exact numbers) of the meta run it on MODO, for example, which means in the rest of the 80%, it's fair game not be Revokered. And even then, we still have control over the point of time when we want to Revoker it.

[iatee]

That said, we should be hellbent on increasing the consistency of the deck as I still see it as one of our core problems. While blue decks can filter their crappy draws with cantrips, we're boned if our deck decides to give us crap.

Imperial Recruiter increases the consistency of the deck and even nets you a tiny bit of card advantage, which is why I'm considering toying with 3 or even 4. These guys + stoneforge actually give the deck a decent amount of card selection in total and I don't feel disadvantaged vs someone durdling around with brainstorms and ponders. But that's only until they hit DTT.

I know legacy moves slowly, but I'm kinda surprised that it's taken this long for people to be ringing the bell. I just hope wizards has been paying enough attention to the format that we can stop talking about this in a week. The card isn't interesting or particularly skill testing and it just swings any game in the caster's direction w/ very little downside. It grants a fairly mindless combo deck a permanent spot in the top tier.

I want to test out a naya build but I don't think teeg is enough. The problem with 'answers' to fair decks playing DTT is that you're gambling on whether or not you'll hit them before they have time to cast DTT and that's a pretty bad gamble against any deck playing the full blue cantrip package.

[Anarky87]

What placing do you consider for a deck to do well? The Exemplar for D&T finished 44th ahead of Elves, Shardless, Merfolk
He is on 33 points (11-4 I guess) which is 1 win away form being top 16.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gplil15/day-2-exemplar-decklists-2015-07-05

A Merfolk player placed 20th. That wasn't mentioned in the link.

I think DnT players should probably just wait and see what shakes out next Monday before we make any real statements. Pretty much what I'm doing.

[Barook]

Imperial Recruiter increases the consistency of the deck and even nets you a tiny bit of card advantage, which is why I'm considering toying with 3 or even 4. These guys + stoneforge actually give the deck a decent amount of card selection in total and I don't feel disadvantaged vs someone durdling around with brainstorms and ponders. But that's only until they hit DTT.

I know legacy moves slowly, but I'm kinda surprised that it's taken this long for people to be ringing the bell. I just hope wizards has been paying enough attention to the format that we can stop talking about this in a week. The card isn't interesting or particularly skill testing and it just swings any game in the caster's direction w/ very little downside. It grants a fairly mindless combo deck a permanent spot in the top tier.

I want to test out a naya build but I don't think teeg is enough. The problem with 'answers' to fair decks playing DTT is that you're gambling on whether or not you'll hit them before they have time to cast DTT and that's a pretty bad gamble against any deck playing the full blue cantrip package.
Recruiter is decent (that's why I suggested it in the first place), but it's still slow and off-color. It can't fully address potential issues like mana flood/screw or failing to find certain cards like cantrips can.

Between fetches, SFM and Recruiters, the red splash should have enough shuffle effects to make good use of SDT. Fitting it in might be a pain in the ass, but given that it can even operate with our colorless mana is noteworthy. Recruiter chains or Recruiter --> SFM for SDT shuffling in the later stages in the game doesn't sound too bad.

But as Anarky87 said, we should wait until next Monday. I'd be suprised if DTT didn't get banhammered, while SDT could go either way.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful. Those Aggro Loam decks did very well because they both ran Teeg from a Zenith package. They didn't ultimately win the thing, but making top 8 at a GP is such an accomplishment anyway, you can't say those decks could really be improved. I'm sure both of the Aggro Loam pilots beat plenty of Miracles throughout their days to get to Top 8.

Teeg is just the way to go right now. After the results of Day 1, I added a third to my sideboard. Obviously, no card makes another card completely unusable all the time, but for all the flex spots that decks like Miracles don't care about since they don't add a wrench in their plans - Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avenger - it's good to have more cards be attacking their value mechanics. Everything they play is a "must respond", so DnT's strategy ought to be, likewise, the same.

Jund is always going to be tough, and with all that Loam/Punishing Fire going on as well, Absolute Law looks VERY relevant.

[Bahra]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful. Those Aggro Loam decks did very well because they both ran Teeg from a Zenith package. They didn't ultimately win the thing, but making top 8 at a GP is such an accomplishment anyway, you can't say those decks could really be improved. I'm sure both of the Aggro Loam pilots beat plenty of Miracles throughout their days to get to Top 8.

Teeg is just the way to go right now. After the results of Day 1, I added a third to my sideboard. Obviously, no card makes another card completely unusable all the time, but for all the flex spots that decks like Miracles don't care about since they don't add a wrench in their plans - Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, Serra Avenger - it's good to have more cards be attacking their value mechanics. Everything they play is a "must respond", so DnT's strategy ought to be, likewise, the same.

Jund is always going to be tough, and with all that Loam/Punishing Fire going on as well, Absolute Law looks VERY relevant.

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

anyway I happen to associate with a lot of the people that played and did well with aggro loam. And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice. I dont even know which one is worst. But it feels like chalice is the worst one to fight. Gaddock teeg is so easily delt with without protection. And chalice stops all the cantrips as well as the removal.

If I don't go full out blue I will play a chalice deck. Unless dig through time is banned of course. And I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time. Teeg is not the answer to dig.through time. Spirit of the labyrinth was almost the perfect answer to treasure cruise because it stopped the full engine. Gaddock teeg only stops 1 part. Spirit of the labyrinth locked down 16 cards usually. Gaddock locks down at most 10 and that is in the match up he is at his best in.

Dig through time is way too powerful for legacy because it is so versatile and impossible to effectively disrupt without warping your deck in a specific way too be able to stop it.

[MGB]

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

anyway I happen to associate with a lot of the people that played and did well with aggro loam. And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice. I dont even know which one is worst. But it feels like chalice is the worst one to fight. Gaddock teeg is so easily delt with without protection. And chalice stops all the cantrips as well as the removal.

If I don't go full out blue I will play a chalice deck. Unless dig through time is banned of course. And I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time. Teeg is not the answer to dig.through time. Spirit of the labyrinth was almost the perfect answer to treasure cruise because it stopped the full engine. Gaddock teeg only stops 1 part. Spirit of the labyrinth locked down 16 cards usually. Gaddock locks down at most 10 and that is in the match up he is at his best in.

Dig through time is way too powerful for legacy because it is so versatile and impossible to effectively disrupt without warping your deck in a specific way too be able to stop it.

Hey, come join the Soldier Stompy legion, Bahra. We have Chalice and Thalia in the same deck! And you can play Magus of the Moon with the red splash if you choose, and play Uncounterable Magus as early as Turn 2 :) And this new set basically gave soldiers its own Stoneforge Mystic on a 3/3 body!

[lucksack_delver_flip]

Did Bahra go 3-3 with Imperial Taxes or traditional Death and Taxes?

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

anyway I happen to associate with a lot of the people that played and did well with aggro loam. And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice. I dont even know which one is worst. But it feels like chalice is the worst one to fight. Gaddock teeg is so easily delt with without protection. And chalice stops all the cantrips as well as the removal.

If I don't go full out blue I will play a chalice deck. Unless dig through time is banned of course. And I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time. Teeg is not the answer to dig.through time. Spirit of the labyrinth was almost the perfect answer to treasure cruise because it stopped the full engine. Gaddock teeg only stops 1 part. Spirit of the labyrinth locked down 16 cards usually. Gaddock locks down at most 10 and that is in the match up he is at his best in.

Dig through time is way too powerful for legacy because it is so versatile and impossible to effectively disrupt without warping your deck in a specific way too be able to stop it.I think we'll just have to fundamentally disagree then. Just because a card "dies to removal" is not a reason to not play it, unless of course it also nets the opponent back a card. This is why I've moved away from strategies involving Fiend Hunter, Leonin-Relic Warder, and Oblivion Ring, since you actually risk additional horrible things happening besides just losing a body.

Finn had an old joke in a Lands thread regarding people discussing card choices and why this or that was better or not, and someone was shooting down another's idea about a card because it was susceptible to Abrupt Decay, and he said something like "your argument is like saying Dark Confidant is bad because it dies to Lightning Bolt". Will Bob potentially just trade 1 for 1? Sure. But if left unanswered, he starts locking down the game. The entire reason for an anti-meta deck is about restricting opponents choices. Of course Teeg dies to removal. Why play anything but True Name Nemesis if that's your holdup?

So Absolute Law is bad because it dies to spot removal Jund carries. Hardly. That's now a Decay that WASN'T used on Serra Avenger, or a Golgari Charm that WASN'T used as a -1/-1 sweeper. And no one is arguing to not use Rest in Peace. I'm usually bringing in 2x and a Relic + Absolute Law against Jund. This isn't an either/or.

"I think you are so ridiculously wrong in your assertation of both gaddock teeg and dig through time."

I don't see how there is a possible disconnect here. Dig Through Time is a CMC4+ spell. Gaddock Teeg stops CMC4+ spells. How is this not an answer? It's the exact equivalent of Meddling Mage, except instead of having to name the "right" card for your situation - Terminus, Jace, DtT, Entreat, or GSZenith/NO for Elves - you just get to skip the naming and turn them off. Spirit of the Labyrinth was a far inferior product for maindeck consideration even when Treasure Cruise was a thing because of its almost wasted 3 power on a 1 toughness body, and for usually being too late to stop the cards it aimed to stop. At least with Teeg there's no common reality where you don't get a chance to cast it if in your opener before your opponent gets to cast Dig, or any other CMC4 spell for that matter.

"And I also play tested miracles v aggro loam with them and it is not just gaddock teeg that does it. They have choke, sylvan library and chalice."

This part I like the best because I'm only missing the Chalice. Yet I don't feel like I've ever "warped" my deck. If anything, it's way more subtle than red because it doesn't potentially turn off its own lands.

I highly encourage you to continue playing red splash if you're adamantly against green. One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

[Curby]

One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

Furthermore, it doesn't mean that another splash isn't viable. But yes, I've been warning about drawing conclusions from narrow results for awhile now.


8 rounds ... is an EXTREMELY small sample size upon which to base conclusions

... and even more so for 6 rounds.

[frenadol]

While I do think Teeg is a necessary card right now if you're playing Wg, I wouldn't go so far as to say Teeg solves all the CMC4+ problems. Given the low density of such cards in the vast majority of decks (but Teeg still wrecks Miracles hands down) you're most of the time just trading one card for the chance of blanking one card. That's a very low value trade because of the low pushing power Teeg himself has, although he's much more resilient that SotL ever was. That's the main reason why I'm reluctant to play more than 1 of him in the maindeck, and that's only if there's card selection in the form of Library or Yisan. Another one or even 2 in the sideboard are fine because he's very good in the matchups where he's relevant.

Changing topic, I'm really liking Containment Priest right now, even at the cost of Vial. She has flash which can be more important that it seems, blanks a lot of the Elves kit, completely demolishes Dredge and Reanimator without needing GY hate, and shuts down GSZ against Loam, which can be quite a difficult matchup for DnT. With Wisps it also provides a secondary source of removal when StP isn't available (Chalice Merfolk)

Also WotC just needs to stop printing X/1 hatebears.

[Ralf]

I highly encourage you to continue playing red splash if you're adamantly against green. One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

That is the perfect answer.
Imperial Tax was really a blast to play.
But as much competitive as you may be, variance/luck/bad pairings may happen and one should never draw conclusions based on ONE tournament result.

4/3 @ GP Lille.
Lend the deck to my sparing partner for a 5/1/1 @ Sunday Lille legacy (he drew the last one for money)

[c2232]

Absolute law is not good against jund. Sure, you board it in, but they have decays and golgari charms. Rest in peace is a lot better.

Try a 2 of Surgical extraction.

[Barook]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful.
DTT is more powerful than TC and has not only surpassed it in usage, but also lifting the blue meta to a new all-time high, even higher than during the TC era. Stating that it isn't too powerful seems like a bad joke.

[MGB]

I would be more than satisfied with a DTT + SDT ban in concert with this latest B&R announcement. Both of those things need to go, now.

[Luca Grease]

Neither Dig Through Time nor SDT should get banned as they aren't inherently too powerful. Those Aggro Loam decks did very well because they both ran Teeg from a Zenith package.

I generally respect your opinion as a DnT pilot and magic player in general, but this statement I just cannot agree with. Saying that blue DTT decks aren't too powerful because a dedicated hate deck running 5 virtual copies of Teeg + Chalice and Choke CAN beat them (but doesn't necessarily) doesn't make sense. If the only competitive options are playing a DTT deck (namely grixis/BURG Delver, Miracles or Omni-Tell) or a deck almost completely tuned to hate on DTT, then we definitely have a problem on our hands. That's the reason Treasure Cruise was banned in January: because it reduced the spectrum of viable competitive options and was bending the fundamentals of the game. Legacy has, for a long time, been the most diverse format in magic, but it is in a sorry state right now. When GP winning lists of the most controllish deck in the format are packing wasteland and daze, you know something's wrong...

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Well there were still 9 different decktypes in the Top 16. You might as well argue that Brainstorm should be banned; it was in way more of those decks than Dig Through Time was. Legacy might be slightly homogenous-looking to some, but it's probably because GP attendees are more risk-averse with their deck choices. I mean, this isn't a Survival vs. Anti-Survival meta quite yet. There's a good combo representation, control, and aggro in there.

Btw, just a side note, The winning Miracles list didn't have both Wasteland and Daze. I think some people just need to start taking on this meta with bold choices. Hell, maybe Burn is good right now? I wouldn't know. Perhaps Reanimator has its due. 12-Post? I know they are one of Miracles' worst nightmares traditionally. With the deck trending the way of Daze, that might be a recipe for disaster against a deck like that. Let's just wait for the next good-sized tourney before calling Legacy stale from DtT.

[Barook]

Food for thought:

I'm currently experimenting with the green splash including Noble Hierarch and KotR:

// Lands
2 [LG] Karakas
2 [10E] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [B] Savannah
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [NPH] Batterskull

It's just a rough list. Cavern of Souls might be good here, but I'm in general not the biggest fan due to colored mana requirements. I cut a Port since it's fetchable with KotR and to stabilize the manabase. 8 Fetches and no Canopy to have enough Plains for fetching and KotR activations.

I only goldfished so far for various reasons, but this looks quite workable so far. KotR actually has food for activations (which has been critized before for whatever reason) and the green requirements don't seem problematic (might change in actual games when facing Wastelands, but it looks solid).

Sylvan Library might be a great inclusion, but I haven't found any space for it so far.

Depending on how Vryn Wingmare turns out, 4 Noble Hiearch + 4 Wingmare alongside 4 Thalia could be another interesting direction to take the deck, since it does increase the number of potential T2 resistors.

[c2232]

Food for thought:

I'm currently experimenting with the green splash including Noble Hierarch and KotR:

I believe you are looking for the Maverick thread.

[Curby]

Pithy, but he really isn't. Look at the rest of the list to see what a small change it is to overall D&T. KOTR, much like Recruiter or Library, is just another way to provide library manipulation in a deck that desperately needs it. That it happens to be a great beater is just gravy. I'm less a fan of Hierarch though, as our important lock pieces all cost 2 (it would be better to have 2 mana turn 1 (even for a single turn) than 3 mana turn 2) and it competes with Vial and Mom for first-turn plays.

[MGB]

That deck just screams "play Collected Company for value" to me, for some reason.

[Barook]

I believe you are looking for the Maverick thread.
And I believe you shouldn't post unless you have something of value to contribute.


Pithy, but he really isn't. Look at the rest of the list to see what a small change it is to overall D&T. KOTR, much like Recruiter or Library, is just another way to provide library manipulation in a deck that desperately needs it. That it happens to be a great beater is just gravy. I'm less a fan of Hierarch though, as our important lock pieces all cost 2 (it would be better to have 2 mana turn 1 (even for a single turn) than 3 mana turn 2) and it competes with Vial and Mom for first-turn plays.
My reasons for trying out Hierarchs are:
a) provide mana fixing in combination with Vial,
b) be accel without card disadvantage and
c) provide utility (body for equipment + Exalted triggers).
In the current iteration, it still retains the typical 15 white sources, but increases the total mana source count to 25 thanks to mana dorks. Fetchlands thinning the deck is also way to reduce manaflood, but the statistical effect should be negligible.

Hierarch into 2 drop + Wasteland on T2 is pretty good, especially when it's Thalia on the play. Or just 2-drop plus another 1-drop/Daze-proofness. The T3 options with Hiearch branch way more out and are far more interesting (taking T2 Hierach off Vial into account), like Porting + 2-drop, or a T3 Jitte swing, or other stuff. There's alot more to it than you might initially think. Whether or not it's worth it is a subject to testing. And I wouldn't priorize a Hierarch over Mom and especially Vial (since you can drop a Hierach for free from it anyway).


That deck just screams "play Collected Company for value" to me, for some reason.
That would mean cutting into the creature count. I'm not a fan of that.

[Curby]

Has anyone given consideration to making a G/W Death n Taxes that plays 4 Collected Company?


If you're playing the green splash, could you just go ahead and play some Collected Company perhaps?


That deck just screams "play Collected Company for value" to me, for some reason.


Costs 5 with Thalia, unplayable with Teeg. Sylvan Library is a much better card advantage engine for the deck.

If you like it so much, against the recommendations of others, why not just play it yourself? Your results will show us how right you are and how wrong we are.

Or we could just wait till you suggest it again next month. I'll happily add that upcoming post to the quoted list of suggestions for the same card. :laugh:

Actually, are you trolling? If so, good one.

[MGB]

If you like it so much, against the recommendations of others, why not just play it yourself? Your results will show us how right you are and how wrong we are.

Or we could just wait till you suggest it again next month. I'll happily add that upcoming post to the quoted list of suggestions for the same card. :laugh:

Actually, are you trolling? If so, good one.

I'm sorry, I'm just really bored at work and forget that I'm probably repeating myself a bit too much in some of these posts.

[c2232]

And I believe you shouldn't post unless you have something of value to contribute.

I believe that it is valuable to point you in a better direction. The green "splash" has gone from 2 teeg and 2 pridemage (which I thought was interesting until I tested it) to basically a Maverick deck (not Maverick, but very very close). If you want quality responses and advice on your decklist you should post in the appropriate thread..... this is no longer it.

[Stevestamopz]

Is playing Batterskull, Jitte, Sofi and Sword of Light and Shadow all in the mainboard too much equipmen for mono white?

[c2232]

Is playing Batterskull, Jitte, Sofi and Sword of Light and Shadow all in the mainboard too much equipmen for mono white?

swords are awesome but you only get one!!! its unfair to everyone else if you have two, pick one and only one!!!!!!!!!! but seriously you should at least lose a sword.

[Barook]

I believe that it is valuable to point you in a better direction. The green "splash" has gone from 2 teeg and 2 pridemage (which I thought was interesting until I tested it) to basically a Maverick deck (not Maverick, but very very close). If you want quality responses and advice on your decklist you should post in the appropriate thread..... this is no longer it.
I don't care about your personal dislike of the green splash. Maverick is still a deck based around GSZ, while Gw D&T has Vial (total nonbo with GSZ), Port, Revoker and Flickerwisp, for starters.

As for quality responses, I urge you to improve your post quality. Out of your posts since your recent registration, we get a whole bunch of nothing like the post above or this one:

swords are awesome but you only get one!!! its unfair to everyone else if you have two, pick one and only one!!!!!!!!!! but seriously you should at least lose a sword.
You could at least explain why it's a bad idea instead of making unfunny jokes.


Is playing Batterskull, Jitte, Sofi and Sword of Light and Shadow all in the mainboard too much equipmen for mono white?
It's too many because when are you fetching for SoLaS? Jitte is faster and provides more lifegain while also having potential to be more aggressive in a damage race (2 vs 4 damage). The recur ability is quite conditional (and counters the lifegain if the targeted creature is removed, e.g. with DRS). So you would mainly play it for the pro white and +2/+2 bonus, which isn't too impressive. And too many equipments clock up the hand. For white Stoneforge decks, Manriki-Gusari is simply the better card in the sideboard, which is reason you normally don't see SoLas in any D&T 75.

[Stevestamopz]

It's too many because when are you fetching for SoLaS? Jitte is faster and provides more lifegain while also having potential to be more aggressive in a damage race (2 vs 4 damage). The recur ability is quite conditional (and counters the lifegain if the targeted creature is removed, e.g. with DRS). So you would mainly play it for the pro white and +2/+2 bonus, which isn't too impressive. And too many equipments clock up the hand. For white Stoneforge decks, Manriki-Gusari is simply the better card in the sideboard, which is reason you normally don't see SoLas in any D&T 75.

Long story short, I'm playing in a Legacy League, and I might have to go up against Soldier Stompy in the next round (I'm currently 3-1) and Suppression Field wrecks the shit out of Death and Taxes. So it was a super meta-gamey thought, possibly inspired by my 1 loss being against miracles where I got swords to plowshared 7 times :(

As you said however the bonus from it is pretty average and 4 equipment MB is hella clunky.
Thanks for the responses guys.

[c2232]

I don't care about your personal dislike of the green splash. Maverick is still a deck based around GSZ, while Gw D&T has Vial (total nonbo with GSZ), Port, Revoker and Flickerwisp, for starters.

As for quality responses, I urge you to improve your post quality. Out of your posts since your recent registration, we get a whole bunch of nothing like the post above or this one:

You could at least explain why it's a bad idea instead of making unfunny jokes.

It's nothing personal, I really thought the splash was interesting and I actually tested it.... Not in theory but in reality and the green splash turned out to not be very good.

I post here to help other/newer D&T players through my experience. There are no bad ideas here, if someone wants to play with two swords then he should and I encourage him to be innovative and test it himself. I don't force ideas on people and then tell them they are stupid or wrong when they don't agree with me.

My intent in my response to your post was to actually help and I want you to discuss your lighter green vial maverick deck in the maverick thread where they may have some insight to help improve it.

I understand that you are incapable of admitting that any idea you ever have is incorrect but you must know that not everyone agrees with you.

[iatee]

D+T and Maverick exist on the same spectrum...older versions of Maverick even played vial. I'm inclined to agree that even w/ ports and flickerwisp, if you are playing Noble Hierarch and Knight, you're playing a Maverick deck that is a little more disruptive and white rather than a D+T deck with a splash. When you have that # of green creatures and ramp, you might as well be playing GSZ so you can find that Teeg or relevant creature more reliably. And if you're playing manadorks, you might as well play DRS, which is the best one in legacy.

Splitting the difference between the two decks doesn't result in an unplayable deck, but you're giving up the disruptive consistency of D+T by playing relatively few hatebears and you're giving up the consistency that Maverick has by not playing GSZ or enough ramp to have 3 mana almost always available t2.

[Curby]

The best use for SoLaS I've seen is in the green splash, for recurring Pridemages blowing up their stuff. It's also useful to protect a guy from Abrupt Decay. That said, I'm into the green splash but not into SoLaS. I simply can't find the room.

Side note: SoLaS is unlikely to help you that much against Miracles. The problem isn't their StP (which is seen in other decks and you can use Mom/Flickerwisp to fight) but rather Terminus, which will remove your SoLaS-bearer and won't provide you graveyard fill to bring back with SoLaS.

P.S. I'm gonna talk about splashes until a moderator tells me otherwise. I welcome others to do the same.

[c2232]

P.S. I'm gonna talk about splashes until a moderator tells me otherwise. I welcome others to do the same.

Absolutely, innovation makes us all better. However there is a point when it is no longer a splash..... When you start adding mana dorks, and then knights, and then force of nature you might have a different deck.

[Bosque]

Long story short, I'm playing in a Legacy League, and I might have to go up against Soldier Stompy in the next round (I'm currently 3-1) and Suppression Field wrecks the shit out of Death and Taxes. So it was a super meta-gamey thought, possibly inspired by my 1 loss being against miracles where I got swords to plowshared 7 times :(

As you said however the bonus from it is pretty average and 4 equipment MB is hella clunky.
Thanks for the responses guys.

And that's why sometimes what is right for a wider meta, isn't right for your local meta! If you're going up against lots of white or black decks I would encourage you to give it a shot. You could put the sword in the board for those matchup. If Suppression Field and other artifacts or enchantments is what is giving you fits however, might think about things like Leonin Relic-Warder, Qasali Pridemage (in green splash, works well with SoLaS), War Priest of Thune or even Disenchant since Suppression Field turns off equipping.

[Koke_MTG]

Hey guys!

I have a question about creature's removal in the sideboard for mono-white version.

I'm not a fan of taking sideboard slots for that but I want to improve mirror, Elves and Infect matchups. What is the best removal for these matchups? Gut Shot, Dismember...

If you need more information about my full sideboard for posible changes including creature's removal, here it is:

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Containment Priest
4 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Ratchet Bomb
3 x Rest in Peace

Thanks! :wink:

[LanciatoreDiBanane]

Food for thought:

I'm currently experimenting with the green splash including Noble Hierarch and KotR:

// Lands
2 [LG] Karakas
2 [10E] Plains
4 [TE] Wasteland
3 [MM] Rishadan Port
4 [B] Savannah
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Flooded Strand

4 [FNM] Mother of Runes
3 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [EVE] Flickerwisp
3 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary

4 [DS] AEther Vial
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [NPH] Batterskull


In this forum you will not find a good place for discussing the deep green splash. Maverick's players are too loyal to GSZ for considering seriously Aether Vial buids and you did see by yourself what happens if you discuss this in the D&T area.
I did top100 at GP Lille, top16 at Mkm and, consistently, good results at local events with the original Maverick. I'll post you the list here and if you are interested in exchanging ideas you can send me a PM.

2 Weathered Wayfarer
4 AEther Vial
3 Mother of Runes
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Windswept Heath
4 Savannah
1 Karakas
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Rishadan Port
1 Flooded Strand
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Rest in Peace

[ironclad8690]

Hey guys!

I have a question about creature's removal in the sideboard for mono-white version.

I'm not a fan of taking sideboard slots for that but I want to improve mirror, Elves and Infect matchups. What is the best removal for these matchups? Gut Shot, Dismember...

If you need more information about my full sideboard for posible changes including creature's removal, here it is:

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Containment Priest
4 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Ratchet Bomb
3 x Rest in Peace

Thanks! :wink:


Holy Light
Sunlance
Path to Exile

[Klirre]

Have anyone tried out Vryn Wingmare yet? Is it worth playing in the mono-w decks? I'm using one Aven Mindcensor atm, will problably try the horse-thalia in that slot. The big question is if it's good enough to run 2, or even 4?

[Fatal]

Tested last days this build with Vryn Wingmare. I add light splash which is probably unique (didn't see it before here):

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Meddling Mage
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Mother of Runes
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Flickerwisp
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
4 Vryn Wingmare
2 Phyrexian Revoker
//SB:
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist


Few words about build:
Vryn Wingmare is really great, taxing stp for 3+ is really great. It isnt rare when opponent can't cast Abrupt Decay on vial, you just play turn 2 thalia, then turn 3 Vryn + clones.
Yes clones when we look at legacy targeting options in current legacy tier decks we don't see too many options. Sure it has some downsides like you can't equip it, or protect with mom, but on the other side it's perfectly copy goyfs, or adding more taxing effects if needed, it's very universal and never dead in hand with best cmc - 2. More tricks with Flickerwisp (copy it and things get ugly for opponent).

Other big change was stp which goes to SB, with 12 taxing effect most time you can't cast even 1 cmc spell. For example in mirror for g2 I sided stp in, but after they cost 5 (2 thalia, 2 vryn, 1 Image as 3rd vryn) they where good only vs turn 1 mom.

Probably the worst card MD from tested was Glowrider - still looking good replacement -evansion is big difference (actually Meddling Mage) - maybe Aven Mindcensor testing different variants.
I'm not a big fan of Mirrian Crusader (just a beater with protections in my eyes and still can be stopped by TNN), Flying is key to race.

[Barook]

Tested last days this build with Vryn Wingmare. I add light splash which is probably unique (didn't see it before here):

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Meddling Mage
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Mother of Runes
4 Fiend Hunter
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Flickerwisp
2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
4 Vryn Wingmare
2 Phyrexian Revoker
//SB:
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist


Few words about build:
Vryn Wingmare is really great, taxing stp for 3+ is really great. It isnt rare when opponent can't cast Abrupt Decay on vial, you just play turn 2 thalia, then turn 3 Vryn + clones.
Yes clones when we look at legacy targeting options in current legacy tier decks we don't see too many options. Sure it has some downsides like you can't equip it, or protect with mom, but on the other side it's perfectly copy goyfs, or adding more taxing effects if needed, it's very universal and never dead in hand with best cmc - 2. More tricks with Flickerwisp (copy it and things get ugly for opponent).

Other big change was stp which goes to SB, with 12 taxing effect most time you can't cast even 1 cmc spell. For example in mirror for g2 I sided stp in, but after they cost 5 (2 thalia, 2 vryn, 1 Image as 3rd vryn) they where good only vs turn 1 mom.

Probably the worst card MD from tested was Glowrider - still looking good replacement -evansion is big difference (actually Meddling Mage) - maybe Aven Mindcensor testing different variants.
I'm not a big fan of Mirrian Crusader (just a beater with protections in my eyes and still can be stopped by TNN), Flying is key to race.
Cool idea, I like it.

Good thing you changed the Glowrider, that seemed underwhelming. But still, you run 12 three-drops and only 21 lands? :eyebrow: That seems questionable.

If you're looking for a flying beater, why not just run good old Serra Avengers? Doesn't seem too shabby as copy target, either.

A couple of other things:
- I would at least run 3 Revokers. Gw has Pridemages to compensate to a certain degree, Wu has not.
- You have given reasons for moving StP to the board due to heavy taxing, but I remain sceptical that Fiend Hunter can fill its role properly, due to speed, double white requirement and only being temporary if they have removal.

[Fatal]

Manabase is quite greedy that's right - I should probably shave some Fiend Hunter for land (still love them with flickerwisp/clone combo's) but they as you said - slow - but necessary evil - remember if you can't cast removal which cost 1 - opponent also can't. Fiend Hunter is the cheapest white removal on legs.
Build need heavy testing vs blind meta.

I can say it has much better MU vs OmniTell then standard build, Revokers was decreased due not many non-creature spells resolve anyway. Sure if opponent win the roll, and you don't have vial, he can manage every taxed one by one (for example Jund with bolt build - but it's quite rare nowadays). I keep revoker for MUD where you need to answer Metalworker ASAP (Fiend Hunter maybe to slow here same with Mangara).

Edit: Achievement earned - having own Griselbrand and bounce opponent one :-)

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Has anyone experience with Cavern of Souls? We are already running lots of humans and resolving thalia and sfm vs miracle and tempo decks seems good! + For the red splash its an actual dual land...

[frenadol]

Has anyone experience with Cavern of Souls? We are already running lots of humans and resolving thalia and sfm vs miracle and tempo decks seems good! + For the red splash its an actual dual land...

It's really good depending in what creatures you play in your maindeck. Works best in non green versions of the deck, especially WR because as you said it has more commonality in creature types. Having a high amount of Flickerwisps (3-4) is also recommended since it can bounce the Cavern to change creature types when needed, to prevent it from being another generic colorless land after you landed your first relevant spell of it. Although I woulnan't play more than 2 of it in any case, there's still enough variance with creature types in the deck (collides with Serra Avenger and Brimaz mainly, and can also affect SFM's white requirements) that make it not very convenient in large quantities.

[iatee]

I've been playing the RW version and found cavern to be one of my best lands (whereas I found it generally meh in classic mono-w). An opening 7 with cavern, mom, thalia and magus will be hard for a lot of decks to beat. I've been testing with more than 1 lately...it might just be objectively wrong given mana math, but I do think there's a lot of potential.

[frenadol]

It would seem that DTT is here to stay, along with the 3 big blue decks that spam it.

It also would seem that Death and Taxes has pretty dismal chances against Miracles when Monastery Mentor is involved. What would you guys do against the GP winner deck for example? Sideboarding paths mainly.

[Curby]

One more chance before GP Seattle.

Source: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/banned-and-restricted-announcement-2015-07-13

[Barook]

It would seem that DTT is here to stay, along with the 3 big blue decks that spam it.

It also would seem that Death and Taxes has pretty dismal chances against Miracles when Monastery Mentor is involved. What would you guys do against the GP winner deck for example? Sideboarding paths mainly.
Can't say much about Miracles Mentor, but I'll try to sell off my Ports at a reasonable price on MTGO now and buy some Lilianas to play Aggro Loam.

Despite the horrible promos for about a year now, I can't justify sitting on the ticking time bomb that are MOCS promos if I can't even play with my cards. RG Lands also use Ports, but I doubt it would be my cup of tea to be honest.

I'll follow the development of Fatal's Wu build, though.

[BearsandSquires]

This is so dumb, out of all the things wizards could do they just decide to make no changes to the ban list.

[Poron]

there is so real reason to. A very early Magus wins against both 4c Delver and Miracle. Green list can even pack Gaddock and Choke

[frenadol]

there is so real reason to. A very early Magus wins against both 4c Delver and Miracle. Green list can even pack Gaddock and Choke

That involves resolving a Magus and keeping him alive. All Miracles has to do is resolve a Mentor and they have countermagic/Countertop backup. They have card filtering and we don't. Teeg doesn't do jack shit against Mentor.

4c Delver isn't a problematic matchup, but the chances aren't great about the other 2 decks of the 3.

[Stevestamopz]

What would you guys do against the GP winner deck for example? Sideboarding paths mainly.

Put a Solas on something and sudden demise white? I didn't say it was a good plan...

[Curby]

I guess our outs are more of Cataclysm, Ghostly Prison, and point removal.

[frenadol]

I guess our outs are more of Cataclysm, Ghostly Prison, and point removal.

Yead I already have a Ghostly Prison. Cataclysm doesn't work because they keep Mentor, a basic land and a Top. And he rebuilds way faster than me.

In monowhite I can have a sideboard Moat but in GW there aren't that many fliers (you really need around 7)

[Luca Grease]

It would seem that DTT is here to stay, along with the 3 big blue decks that spam it.

It also would seem that Death and Taxes has pretty dismal chances against Miracles when Monastery Mentor is involved. What would you guys do against the GP winner deck for example? Sideboarding paths mainly.

Now, I admit I haven't seen it in action or tested against it, but my initial feeling is that the match-up isn't necessarily worse for us against that list. Equipment should still deal with the mentor easily, and Swords to Plowshares are no longer a dead card in game 1. Sure, we might no longer be able to freely apply pressure with stuff like Revoker, but them playing only 3 Plows and 3 Termini (as well as often being in a position where Terminus would wipe away their board as well) can't be bad for us.

As for sideboarding, I guess I would still take out at least some number of Stps and a Wasteland, and leave Jitte in, but for the most part it would remain unchanged with Mono-white. Perhaps drop cataclysm if everyone stops playing Jace/Entreat and concentrates on the Mentor. As I said, I have no experience against it but I feel like the match-up shouldn't get worse as a result...

[Stevestamopz]

If you're really worried about Mentor and you're playing R/W you could easily play a Goblin Sharpshooter in the sideboard.

[Barook]

If you're really worried about Mentor and you're playing R/W you could easily play a Goblin Sharpshooter in the sideboard.
That's some interesting tech, even for the mirror. Too bad it's too slow vs Elves, but I could see it doing some work against Pyormancer decks as well.

[Poron]

very good call.

Miracle plays x/1 creatures, 4c Delver plays Pyromancer, DnT plays many /1 creatures, TES plays Empty the Warrens, Infect plays just /1 creatures.

All top8 decks in GP Lille would be nerfed by this a lot..

[iatee]

I went 3-0-1 with my 4c brew last night

4 thalia
4 mom
4 sfm
4 flickerwisp
3 revoker
3 magus of the moon
2 imperial recruiter
1 mangara
1 mirran crusader

1 batterskull
1 sofi
1 jitte
4 stp
4 vial

4 wasteland
4 port
2 karakas
5 fetches
1 scrubland
2 plateau
2 plains
3 cavern of souls

sb
2 rest in peace
1 dark confidant
1 orzhov pontiff
1 savannah
1 gaddok teeg
1 ratchet bomb
1 cataclysm
1 pithing needle
1 sudden demise
3 ethersworn canonist
2 leonin relic-warder


m1 aggro loam (2-1)

g1 - lose to punishing fire / grove as I only draw a wasteland when it's way too late to matter. he had an early sylvan library and I couldn't keep up.
g2 - he scoops to t3 magus, not having seen it g1. he coulda fetched better.
g3 - he loses to magus / RIP / revoker for his mox / crusader with sword on it killing him in one swing. another early sylvan library but it didn't matter.

m2 miracles (1-1-1)

g1 lasts forever, I have pretty consistent pressure, two vials and a cavern-on-human, which makes his early counter-top lock not very scary. he eventually gets out a jace, and I still woulda been able to win if I drew into creatures, but it didn't happen and he wins w/ jace ult.
g2 is very quick, my hand is almost all lands, but they're the right ones - thalia plus karakas, wasteland and 3 ports for his 3 lands means he plays very few spells the whole game and she gets there almost on her own
g3 goes to time, I'm fairly sure I woulda won as I had thalia/crusader on board w/ vial at 3 and two flickerwisps + he had taken some damage. he was gonna race me w/ monastery mentor + double top + wear/tear for the vial. pretty sure flickerwisps + some flickerwisp tricks woulda got there we didn't actually do the math though.

m3 grixis delver (2-0)

g1 - opening hand w/ two maguses, he dazes the first and can't play around the second even w/ fetches as he has no basics. have mom, revoker for drs, magus and he has pyro w/ tokens from bolt and therapy, drs. I don't draw any action beyond more moms for something like 8 turns, so it gets close to the point where he coulda won with a series of bolts to the face. luckily I draw a few creatures finally and win.
g2 - I kept a 1 land vial hand, assuming he boarded out his counterspells (he had). he plays delver and young pyro, I have ratchet bomb to kill the flipped delver and the pyro tokens. he attacks w/ pyro into vial at 2 and I chump w/ a vialed SFM. win with vial at 3, two flickerwisps and jitte.

m4 miracles (2-1)

g1 - another endless miracles game - this time he had a (relatively) early entreat for 4, I had 3 flickerwisps in hand and a sword, so they munched on the angels and eventually he had to terminus. I drew recruiter later on a relatively empty board and picked thalia (as I had a karakas and wanted the resiliency). had I picked magus I probably woulda won, as he drew into his second entreat.
g2 - another long game, this one won by recruiter-for-teeg w/ karakas backup. he gets sulfur elemental, which extends the game a bit as I have some unplayable creatures in hand but ends up being a pretty ugly nonbo when he draws a mentor later. eventually get SFM for batterskull and win with the skull.
g3 - t1 vial gets forced, t2 vial plus mom, he wear/tears the vial, t3 doesn't hit his land drop and I waste + thalia, t4 have karakas, mangara, thalia, mom and he has 1 land in play and scoops.

overall
- 3 caverns were *consistently* good for me, but obv I played against 2 miracles players. pretty convinced that at least 2 is right for more conservative versions of the RW deck, often it just makes your opening hand super explosive.
- a red based deck w/ a single teeg but lots of recruiters will find that teeg more often than the straight GW deck.
- was always happy to see bob against miracles but he was mostly just removal-bait that sometimes cantripped. never had a chance to use pontiff but I brought it in against grixis delver.
- magus of the moon still continues to overperform, in this game stealing games from a pretty bad aggro loam matchup.
- obviously this very fragile manabase lowers your win % against some wasteland decks, but those matchups are generally so good that it's not the end of the world. also 3 caverns means you often will have some cavern/mom/thalia opening hand that just shuts off their early tempo counterspells, so it balances it out a bit.

[iatee]

the problem with goblin sharpshooter is that if they keep one spell in hand to trigger prowess, your sharpshooter isn't gonna actually kill the first token. and since it doesn't have haste, they'll have a turn to prepare for that.

cunning sparkmage / izzet staticaster are other options that help get around that. could also play bolts in the sb.

[Barook]

@iatee: I don't really see the benefit of running 4 colors. :really:

Black doesn't seem to really add anthing that justifies running it. 3 colors are already really stretching it. Adding the Savannahto the MD replacing Scrubland frees a SB slot.

Have you considered a 1/1 split between Leonin Relic-Warder and Qasali Pridemage since both are tutorable, but Pridemage being a more permanent solution?

[iatee]

I mean at this point I'm just brewing, but I like the idea of Pontiff as a 1-of recruitable answer to TNN decks or hoards of tokens. I'm going up to 3 recruiters soon and the goal is to have some a tutorable wishboard answer to any board state. It's possible a sb Pontiff could be played w/ zero actual black sources, given 3 caverns and the fact that a large % of the time you'll have fetched it with a recruiter coming off a vial on 3. But that might be too greedy.

Leonin Relic-Warder is a cat cleric rather than a cat wizard (along with Mom, Canonist, Pontiff) so there's some small can-be-cast-with-cavern upside. A one of Teeg as the *only* green card allows you to get away with a greedier manabase. I also just don't think Pridemage is that great - Relic Warder is actual card advantage for a deck that needs it, Pridemage is a beater w/ the upside of disenchant. Teeg, otoh, is obviously game over in some matchups and not an effect with any comparable card outside of green.

[limbo]

Here is a bit from the 'what's old is new again' file. My LGS hosts legacy every week. We have had a steady diet of Miracles, Aggro Loam, and lands as people try to keep the grixis control, various combo, and delver decks in check. I have taken to main decking a single enlightened tutor, rest in peace and spirit of the labyrinth in my mono-white D&T. Maindeck access to rest in peace has been quite helpful (goyf, deathrite, et al., loam, and delve). The tutor, while card disadvantage is versatile. It certainly won't fix all the problems, but I think it is worth trying out for those of you looking to improve against the slower decks.

[Stevestamopz]

That's some interesting tech, even for the mirror. Too bad it's too slow vs Elves, but I could see it doing some work against Pyormancer decks as well.
It's possible that Sharpshooter will be better in DnT than in Goblins, lackey/ringleader/warchief interactions aside. The ability to protect it with Mom and Flickerwisp is huge, which is something Goblins doesn't have access to. It alone is too slow against elves, but once it's active it's pretty hard to lose outside of NO-> Progenitus.


the problem with goblin sharpshooter is that if they keep one spell in hand to trigger prowess, your sharpshooter isn't gonna actually kill the first token. and since it doesn't have haste, they'll have a turn to prepare for that.

cunning sparkmage / izzet staticaster are other options that help get around that. could also play bolts in the sb.

Cunning Sparkmage/Izzet Staticaster can at best kill off 1 token at a time where Sharpshooter can literally kill infinite x/1s. The upside of being repeatable is better than the downside of not having haste IMO.

[Fatal]

Cunning Sparkmage/Izzet Staticaster can at best kill off 1 token at a time where Sharpshooter can literally kill infinite x/1s. The upside of being repeatable is better than the downside of not having haste IMO.

You should read Izzet Staticaster

Edit: Added perspective

[Tylert]

You should read Izzet Staticaster

I can read that Izzet staticaster mana cost contains UR and is unplayable in D&T. I see your point however :)

[Stevestamopz]

You should read Izzet Staticaster

Lel my bad.

I still prefer Sharpshooter on account of it being more versatile and only being :2::r:, but sure.

[iatee]

another out-there option that can be recruitered for and stops both token armies and true-name nemesis - droning bureaucrats

[Poron]

I can read that Izzet staticaster mana cost contains UR and is unplayable in D&T. I see your point however :)

Cavern of Souls can provide the U mana, also, if they have the same name and 1 thoughtness, Staticaster kills all of them.

Sharpshooter is just better even though no Haste is a big issue..

[iatee]

overall I think pingers are probably the wrong way to beat mentor, though they might be good for other matchups given some local meta (useful tutor target vs elves, mirror, etc.). vs mentor they only kill the tokens when 'you get there' and they don't have any extra prowess triggers - and even in that best case scenario they don't kill the mothership. and generally having to play purely defensive creatures against a slow control deck is not a great plan.

bolts/sudden shocks are pretty generic sb cards that kill the mothership and have upside of going to the face/jace in close games and are also good in the delver/drs/pyro/elves matchups. or just, idk, don't side out so many STPs. that's probably the real answer.

[neddsaurus]

I play bahra RW 75. I'm having a hard time with grixis delver and control lists. I believe its correct to side out all magus. YP can get out of control. Don't know a good way to deal with tokens aside from sudden demise

What do you think about red elem blasts in sideboard for DTT and Show and Tell? Most ppl side out counters. Would get rid of omni also, possibly. Also another form of removal against delver decks

Anyone try fiendslayer paladin In the side? Thoughts?

I like sudden shock. Takes care of mentor and YP

Or maybe add 1 path in the board

[iatee]

Totally disagree on taking out the maguses. Sure they have outs (bolt if you have no mom, unrevokered DRS) but if they don't happen to have the right out at the right time, they're locked out of the game, and even if you're behind on board at that point, you're the only one who gets to do anything. I have won a large % of my games vs grixis decks on the back of magus alone.

Ratchet bomb is great against the token army / flipped delver. Fiendslayer is pretty meh - it can be blocked by 4 pyro tokens and isn't great in very many other matchups. As I mentioned before I'm testing with a sb Orzhov Pontiff + 3 recruiters for exactly that board state but not everyone is gonna want to be so ambitious w/ their mana.

Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile is also tutorable and a legend, though 4 mana.

Circle of flame is a good permanent solution for pyro, but probably not good enough against anything else to merit a sb spot.

[neddsaurus]

Totally disagree on taking out the maguses. Sure they have outs (bolt if you have no mom, unrevokered DRS) but if they don't happen to have the right out at the right time, they're locked out of the game, and even if you're behind on board at that point, you're the only one who gets to do anything. I have won a large % of my games vs grixis decks on the back of magus alone.

Ratchet bomb is great against the token army / flipped delver. Fiendslayer is pretty meh - it can be blocked by 4 pyro tokens and isn't great in very many other matchups. As I mentioned before I'm testing with a sb Orzhov Pontiff + 3 recruiters for exactly that board state but not everyone is gonna want to be so ambitious w/ their mana.

Brigid, Hero of Kinsbaile is also tutorable and a legend, though 4 mana.

Circle of flame is a good permanent solution for pyro, but probably not good enough against anything else to merit a sb spot.

how do u side vs grixis?

Maybe I need to run a 2nd bomb in sb. I might try pontif next week.

[ESG]

I play bahra RW 75. I'm having a hard time with grixis delver and control lists. I believe its correct to side out all magus. YP can get out of control. Don't know a good way to deal with tokens aside from sudden demise

If you need supplementary removal, how about Marrow Shards?

[iatee]

since you're using his 75, looking back on the thread bahra suggested -4 swords -3 revoker for 3 sudden demise, 2 council's, ratchet bomb, leonin relic-warder (for dread and null rod) vs grixis control.

[kombatkiwi]

Scalding Salamander is another Staticaster/Sharpshooter alternative:
-Isn't 2 colours
-Can wipe a board of 1/1s
-Can attack for 2

[mrjumbo03]

I got 2nd in a 30-man (I think) 5-round tourney. Finishing first in the swiss at 4-1. I rocked 3 Vryn Wingmares and they were great the whole day (the 3rd one, I sleeved upside down, so I can monitor the times I draw it, and compare it to the card it replaced, which was the 2nd Serra Avenger, for that specific situation). Here's a fairly long report from what I can remember. I wanted to write a report because this is probably one of the first tournaments that Vryn Wingmare is played in a legacy event.

R1 Burn 2-0 (1-0)
R1G1 I managed to stick a Batterskull before I died. He had a lot of Price of Progresses (I think 3) and they hit for 4 but the problem is it allowed my Stoneforge to put the Batterskull into play.
R1G2 He gets turn 1 Guide, but I had Swords for it. He flooded too. He ended with 4 lands in play, even after Fireblasting. I had Thalia and Wingmare in play at 1 point.

R2 Grixis 2-0 (2-0)
R2G1 Very grindy. I win the race against his TNN with my Flickerwisp and Wingmare, even as he had 3 deathrites giving him some life. Thalia was also in play and during the penultimate turn, I had to make the correct play of not attacking and not blocking with it that would've put a deathrite in his graveyard, which would've given him 2 more life and another turn, and certain death for me. Finished at 3 life after his final swing.
R2G2 He mulls into a land light hand, that gets wrecked by double Wingmare and Wasteland.

R3 Mentor Miracles 0-1 (2-1) *Tilted this round*
R3G1 Make an epic misplay of not putting Jitte counters after he blocked my Jitte wielding mom. Total brainfart which allowed him to play his Mentor on curve, and from there, I was on the ropes as he killed all my creatures. Of note, I got dazed this game. We both realized the Jitte misplay while shuffling for G2.
R3G2 Long game. I was still on tilt from the Jitte misplay, but I managed to put him on the backpedal. Mom, Thalia and Wingmare action annoyed him but he eventually Terminused. I also got dazed this game, which was something I expected to be boarded out after G2 and with me on the play (he told me he had some other cards like Pyroblast that got boarded out). 1st misplay here was, me going aggressive by swinging my Thalia AND Stoneforge (which tutored for a Jitte) with me having 4 lands, one of which is a Karakas. The correct play was to sit on the Stoneforge and just vial in the Jitte. He lands a Mentor, so I was forced to Vial in a the Jitte, equip Karakas, and swing so I can kill his Mentor that turn. That left my Thalia unprotected for a turn and that led to its death. Tilt mode! Another misplay that cost me the game was tapping the wrong mana during a certain turn. With 2 vials out (2 and 3 counters), I swung with a Jitte equipped Brimaz, which he STP'd so I Karakas'ed, he responded by Disenchanting the Vial on 3, I looked down and lo and behold, I tapped my 2nd plains while equipping, when I had a bunch of ports and wastelands out there, doing nothing because he had like 7 lands, so I couldn't play my Brimaz on that turn (later on he told me that had I played it that turn, he had daze). I think time was called during his turn, and while I was still on tilt from the last turn's wrong tap of lands, I forgot to tick up the Vial to 3 on my next turn. It mattered because I drew Flickerwisp. He had a mentor in play, so I was forced to play the Flickerwisp (over Brimaz, because flying, he was at 2 life) main phase instead of Vialing it in on his end step had I tick the Vial up, and just flying in over the air for the last 2 points of damage. Because of that, he dug (with brainstorm, ponder and top), and got an EE at 3 and blows it up on my next swing. I managed to draw another Flickerwisp, but he found his STP during the 5th turn of turns, to preserve his 1-0 win.

R4 2-0 (3-1)
I was paired down against a teammate who only had 2 wins, and he just gave me the win as I had a better chance of making it. The break did a lot of good, because I managed to move past my misplays from the last round.

R5 Omnitell 2-1 (4-1) He was at 5, me at 6. We were forced to play because my breakers were so low and there was a big chance I drop to 9th if we draw in.
R5G1 Mulled to 5, got him down to 4, before he gets mana to win via Omni and Emrakul. Managed to make a game of it with Wingmare (Thalia got countered) and porting. There was an interesting line in this game when he Show and Tell'ed and I had to decide between Revoker and Stoneforge. I chose Stoneforge, thinking if I can just draw a land, I could drop the Batterskull, and continue to port him (I think I couldn't risk not porting his City because he wins on the same turn if I did). Alas, I didn't so I was forced to swing for 1 twice, instead of Revoker twice for 2 more damage that could've mattered. Also of note, I could've won had I gotten the Batterskull in play, because I would've had enough permanents to survive Emrakul.
R5G2 Thalia (countered), Wingmared (killed, with a Mom - on this note, I was fairly aggressive today with swinging with Mom, and I wasn't sure it was correct all the time, because it got pyroclasmed with Wingmare here), and another Wingmare which sticks is too much for him after I drop another creature (can't remember if it was Wisp or Brimaz). He also mulled.
R5G3 Ethersworn Canonist slowed him down, and after he answered the first one, I got another one via Enlightened Tutor, Horizon Canopying and responding to his Ponder with Vial for Canonist (essentially Time Walking him). I continue to nip away, and when he was down to 5, he goes for Intuition for Show and Tell on my turn, and put an Omniscience into play. With no cards in hand, I was at the mercy of my topdeck, and true enough I topdeck a Council's judgement (1 of my only 2 outs). He was forced to Cunning Wish in response for a Sudden Shock to kill my Canonist on his turn. I draw a Thalia, and with Karakas backup, I win when he didn't draw gas (he already lost 3 of his Show and Tells to his intuition. Of note, I put in 1 of my Rest in Peaces to replace a useless Revoker (I boarded out 4 Revokers and 4 Swords), and he was forced to FoW it because he had Dig in his hand. Thoughts on boarding in Rest in Peaces to stop Dig?

T8 Reanimator (2-0)
T8G1 He couldn't draw into a reanimation spell, and I won again on the back of Thalia and Wingmare (He also lacked blue sources in this game when I wastelanded him, forcing him to use his Lotus Petal just to Brainstorm).
T8G2 He goes turn 1 Entomb, turn 2 Exhume Griselbrand. I play Karakas on my turn, and he draws 7 and I bounce, he didn't draw another 7. He entombs on his turn again and gets Ashen Rider via Reanimate leaving him at 3, to kill my Karakas. I vial in a Mother. On his turn, he swings with the Ashen Rider, and Show and Tell's Griselbrand and I drop a Vryn Wingmare. I vial Flickerwisp to remove his Griselbrand, and swing for exactly 3. He had some misplays that could've changed the outcome of the game.

T4 Mentor Miracles 2-0 (Different play from R3)
T4G1 I got a great curve of Vial, into Mom (which got Swords'd), into Thalia into Brimaz, with Karakas backup, as I was porting him. He kept a 3 STP hand which were quite bad to my Karakas-able legends. He went from, 16 (Thalia) to 10 (Thalia and Brimaz and Token) to 0 (Thalia and Brimaz and 2 Tokens and Flicker).
T4G2 He mulls into oblivion (mull to 3 - aside from the 6-hander, which had 1 Tundra, he didn't draw any hands with lands). It wasn't much of a game because of Mom, 2 Wingmares and Flickerwisp.

T2 Dredge (0-2) Horrible misplays :(
T2G1 I mull to 5 to a not so good 3 land hand with Revoker and Flickerwisp. His hand was not explosive because I manage to catch his LED with my Revoker. At one point, he was at 8. 1st misplay, 5 lands (3 ports) in play and I had a Revoker, Batterskull, and Flickerwisp, to his lone Zombie, and City of Brass (which pinged him everytime I tapped it) and LED (revoked). I could've put the Batterskull on Flicker, remove 3 of his bridges (the last one is stuck in his hand) and swing for 7, leaving him at 1, so I can just tap his City on my turn and I win. While, this was the 1st line that I thought of, I brainfarted and talked myself into fearing his Dread Return for Griselbrand (I didn't figure out that I could just tap his City on my turn for the win). So instead of doing that, I swing with my Flickerwisp and my Batterskull, and left my Revoker back because he can block with his Zombie, which makes his LED active. This was mistake number 2 because I didn't realize that he was forced to block the Batterskull, because if he didn't, he was dead to me tapping his City on his upkeep. So instead of going down to 3, he goes down to 5 because I left my Revoker back. After attacking, I play the freshly drawn Wingmare, leaving 2 mana to tap his City to lock him out. In my mind, I can still swing in the air for the win with both Flickerwisp and Wingmare for the win, and he was locked out from casting his spells this way, still a perfectly good play. On his turn, I port (he goes down to 4), him but he gets back 2 Ichorids, and dredges, and the worst thing happened because he got 2 Narcomeoba's from the flip! So now, I can't even swing for the win. In my mind, I'm still good because even though both of us can't swing, he's still locked out because of my port, and he needs to naturally draw the only 1-2 lands (out of around 7 cards in his library) before he dies to his own City of Brass. On my turn, I draw something irrelevant and pass the turn. I port again, he's goes down to 3, and he naturally draws. He draws his Cephalid Coliseum!(so sad) He plays it, and pays 1 via the Coliseum to Dread Return (he goes down to 2! Had I swung with the Revoker earlier, I would've already won!). Knowing this, I tilt even further and made my worst misplay. He sacrificed both Narcomoebas and an Ichorid to his Dread Return, and before he targets his Flame-Kin Zealot with his Dread Return (which I was anticipating because that was the win on board - and he also said after the game, that he was going to do), I immediately returned my Batterskull to hand, killing out his bridges. And then I realized that I acted too fast, and so he got a Griselbrand into play. I was screaming invectives in my head, but I tried to calm myself down and started thinking of the outs. I had a lot of them for my last turn (4 Karakas, 3 more Flickerwisps (to flicker his Griselbrand), 4 Swords to kill off whichever flyer he blocked to stop the lifelink, 2 Horizon Canopies so I can dig more), but my topdeck was a Plains. :( I tap his City on his turn and he goes to 1. But I'm dead from his swing. I look at my next draw, and a Karakas was mocking me. Extreme tilt mode!
T2G2 I keep a wonderful 7, with RIP, Thalia and Revoker and 4 lands. My opponent mulled. While he was shuffling, I proceed to Kibbler Shuffle my hand and I freaking fumbled, and the card that I dropped was the RIP for my opponent to see (I usually don't Kibbler shuffle, but the last game really affected me). Land Go. He drops a Putrid Imp. On my 2nd turn, because I know he knows of my RIP, and because I feared him getting it with a Cabal Therapy, I quickly lay it out even if he doesn't have anything on his yard. This proves to be my undoing, because on his upkeep, he Nature's Claims it, and discards a dredger and goes off from there. Had I done the better and correct play of going Thalia (I also drew a Wasteland for my 2nd turn), then playing RIP, or even Revoker and Wasting before playing the RIP, I probably would've won.

Just some final points, my initial assessment of Vryn Wingmare is that it's really good. Pre-Origins, a lot of games are won on the back of Thalia and Wasteland and Rishadan Port. With the addition of Wingmare, you increase the chance of that scenario to happen. Even in situations that you don't live the dream and get both of them into play, you're still hurting your opponent. Wingmare also gets to swing in the air (sometimes Thalia, just sits there against an opposing Mongoose or Goyf), and while I didn't get to block a delver this tournament, I'm sure it'll come up a lot of times in the future. 8 Flyers was great for me all day. All the times I drew the upsidedown Wingmare, I never wanted the Avenger in that situation because it didn't pressure the opponent enough. The Wingmare also improves the OmniTell matchup. While it's true that you are more susceptible to -1/-1 effects, in my case I removed 2 1/1's and an Avenger, so it's almost a wash. Even if the Avenger survives the -1/-1, outside of having an equipment, the 2/2 flying angel probably won't win you games anyway.

Another thing to note, the recent shift in some Miracles builds to include Mentors might be bad for us, not necessarily because it's a bad matchup per se, but because it will probably mean an increase of Dread of Nights and Sulfur Elementals in sideboards.

TLDR: Wingmare is good. Monowhite folks should go ahead and give it a try. As always, keep on taxing!

[Farone]

allways nice to read, thnx for that!

I am currently trying to put 3 Vryn Wingmare into my mono White D&T deck, lets see how it goes:)

[BearsandSquires]

Though I'm still a fan of the wr dint list, what do you guys think of this mono white version(rough sketch):
4 flicker wisp
4 stoneforge mystic
3 vryn wingmare
1 archangel of tithes
4 thalia
3 serra avenger
4 mom
1 spirit of the labyrinth
2 revoker
4 vial
1 sofi
1 jitte
1 bskull
4 swords
1 flagstones
1 canopy
1 cavern
9 plains
4 wastelands
4 ports
3 karakas
sb:
1 cataclysm
1 oring
1 disenchant
1 needle
3 canonist
2 rest in piece
1 relic-warder
2 judgments
2 containment priest
1 ratchet bomb

[iatee]

if we're gonna be playing a 4 drop, it's not gonna be archangel of tithes. the additional taxing effect is nice when you've locked their mana down, but if you've locked their mana down you probably don't have 1WWW yourself, and knocking port to 4 is basically throwing it away. and as far as beaters go, 3 damage a turn is not that scary on its own.

as far as 4 drops from the new set go, for the wr version I might try a 1 of w/ pia and kiran nalaar in the sb as a finisher for grindy matchups. vial on 4 plus karakas gives you a thopter engine, and it's tutorable w/ recruiter. (plus direct damage / reach). the karakas interaction seems like it could be a lot of fun, but playing any 4 drop ever seems like it's probably wrong.

[Curby]

Given that this is a competitive Legacy deck, I hope we're not actually making it a goal to awkwardly fit cards from a new set. New and shiny isn't a reason for inclusion.

As for 4-drops, Frenadol swears by a 1-of Restoration Angel in his Yisan builds. The single-colored mana, Flash, resistance to Decay and Bolt, and deep interactions with the rest of the deck make it a much better fit. I can certainly see the benefits but am not yet convinced personally. I'd run Resto over any 4-drops in Origins though.

[c2232]

Given that this is a competitive Legacy deck, I hope we're not actually making it a goal to awkwardly fit cards from a new set. New and shiny isn't a reason for inclusion.

It is a reason for testing though.

[iatee]

the w/r version has proven to be a (new) competitive legacy deck but has still had relatively little testing done w/ it, might as well try all kinds of stuff.

and wingmare is almost certain to be a one-of at min in most decks so it's a weird time to be knee jerk reacting against new cards. they've been pushing creatures in magic and printing new hate bears every year. there's always gonna be stuff to test with.

[mikerickson12]

if we're gonna be playing a 4 drop, it's not gonna be archangel of tithes. the additional taxing effect is nice when you've locked their mana down, but if you've locked their mana down you probably don't have 1WWW yourself, and knocking port to 4 is basically throwing it away. and as far as beaters go, 3 damage a turn is not that scary on its own.

as far as 4 drops from the new set go, for the wr version I might try a 1 of w/ pia and kiran nalaar in the sb as a finisher for grindy matchups. vial on 4 plus karakas gives you a thopter engine, and it's tutorable w/ recruiter. (plus direct damage / reach). the karakas interaction seems like it could be a lot of fun, but playing any 4 drop ever seems like it's probably wrong.

I the red splash decks if you find yourself in a grindy game you will most likely have a magus out and your karakas will be a mountain. also why I shy away from playing mangara in the red splash list.

[iatee]

sure, and you're also gonna have fewer karakas in the deck anyway. there are benefits to having a tutorable vindicate w/ mangara though there are very few flex spots left once you have maguses and recruiters.

[c2232]

I encourage people to test as many things as possible... It makes it easier for me when they come here and tell me it sucked. I don't get a chance to play often, and when I do it is usually competitive but I still like new ideas....... For example, I had never really thought about Resto Angel in legacy D&T but your mention of it has me thinking it could be really good and I will likely test it a bit this week before running in the Richmond IQ.

[Stevestamopz]

Having a tutorable Mangara in R/W is still a good catch-all answer to most everything. It's done a lot of work for me in my playing of R/W.

[iatee]

yeah I've been going back and forth on it, but it's rarely been bad for me. I've also gone deep on caverns and he's another human.

the r/w version is even more pure control/resource denial than tempo and having a (slow) get out of jail free card is nice, but you def give up some of your g1 advantage vs the aggressive tempo decks if you use one of the flex spots for another 1/1.

[Curby]

It is a reason for testing though.


I encourage people to test as many things as possible... It makes it easier for me when they come here and tell me it sucked. I don't get a chance to play often

I agree with, and am in the same boat as, everything stated above. I'd just rather the testing take place before the forum post, so there's something more constructive than "ooh, shiny." Of course, one man's noise is another man's signal. :tongue:

Anyway, I've been having the same debate about Mangara. Vryn Wingmare and beefy beats like Crusader and Brimaz make a serious play for Mangara's slot(s) He does seem to better fit the Red build, where a 1-of tutor target can still further the strong mana denial plan. Running a single copy in mono-white or green makes drawing him at precisely the right times a total crapshoot.

[ksmith]

i agree with, and am in the same boat as, everything stated above. I'd just rather the testing take place before the forum post, so there's something more constructive than "ooh, shiny." of course, one man's noise is another man's signal. :tongue:


qft!

[c2232]

qft!

Wha???

[Quasim0ff]

Wha???

QFT = Quoted for Truth :)

[neddsaurus]

Anyone try wear tear in rw? I have 2 council judgment, wondering if I should swap one out. Or maybe instead of relic warder

[SwordsToTimeshares]

QFT = Quoted for Truth :)See, I always thought QFT means "Quit Fucking Trolling". A new day is upon us.

[Curby]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=QFT says "quoted for truth" is often seen on forums, whereas "quit fucking talking" is MMO-speak. I'm not a MMO person so I didn't know that one. It's also #8 on their definitions list so I guess forum-speak wins. :tongue:

Anyway, there was a recent discussion on MTGS about Containment Priest vs Spirit of the Labyrinth, with most people including me siding with Priest (assuming you don't have room to run both). Any dissenting opinions here?

In other news, how about Mirran Crusader vs Brimaz? Crusader dodges Abrupt Decay and loves equipment, whereas Brimaz dodges Bolt, loves Jitte (like Avenger) and helps a lot against Pyromancer strategies (and to a lesser extent Mentor strategies) by spitting out 1/1s. I've been pretty happy with Crusader in my green splash, but am wondering if I should run Brimaz instead now that we have more tokens in the meta. Which do you run when you have room for it, and why?

[iatee]

I think both priest and spirit have proven to be pretty mediocre. even if I were playing the mono-white version I think I would play none - more ethersworn canonists are almost always better than spirit or priest, even against the decks spirit and priest are supposed to wreck. priest does barely anything against the best cheat-stuff-into-play deck and spirit does nothing against the best draw spell.

brimaz def doesn't have a place in the red splash lists as crusader is a tutorable finisher.

[neddsaurus]

I think both priest and spirit have proven to be pretty mediocre. even if I were playing the mono-white version I think I would play none - more ethersworn canonists are almost always better than spirit or priest, even against the decks spirit and priest are supposed to wreck. priest does barely anything against the best cheat-stuff-into-play deck and spirit does nothing against the best draw spell.

brimaz def doesn't have a place in the red splash lists as crusader is a tutorable finisher.
I'm thinking for my 2 flex in rw to do mirran and ethersworn instead of fiend hunter. Have u tried wear tear? Any thoughts on red elem blast in sb? Most decks side out counters post board so I would imagine red elem resolves

[iatee]

wear tear seems bad when you have leonin which is tutorable, vialable, and is a body. dnt is always gonna prefer to play the creature version of an effect but the red splash rewards that more than the others w/ the recruiter multiplier.

I've tried a one of red blast in my sb a few times but still haven't actually drawn it. it's probably not terrible and can hit a dig or cast-TNN in the best cases, but I get the sense that in a lot of games you'd end up having to toss it at whatever.

[neddsaurus]

wear tear seems bad when you have leonin which is tutorable, vialable, and is a body. dnt is always gonna prefer to play the creature version of an effect but the red splash rewards that more than the others w/ the recruiter multiplier.

I've tried a one of red blast in my sb a few times but still haven't actually drawn it. it's probably not terrible and can hit a dig or cast-TNN in the best cases, but I get the sense that in a lot of games you'd end up having to toss it at whatever.

Leonin is only temporary removal. I prefer permanent, but lrw tutorability makes it more likely to hit when needed

Red elem hits omni, jace as well. I was thinking of 2x but probably wrong. I'll give it a shot tho

[Sarterus]

After a few months of playing Death and Taxes I did a video intro for new players. Death & Taxes 201 with a companion article at

https://youtu.be/LB0z9-UfUQg

Death & Taxes 201 @moxboardinghouse (http://www.moxboardinghouse.com/media/death-taxes-201/)

[mrjumbo03]

[url]In other news, how about Mirran Crusader vs Brimaz? Crusader dodges Abrupt Decay and loves equipment, whereas Brimaz dodges Bolt, loves Jitte (like Avenger) and helps a lot against Pyromancer strategies (and to a lesser extent Mentor strategies) by spitting out 1/1s. I've been pretty happy with Crusader in my green splash, but am wondering if I should run Brimaz instead now that we have more tokens in the meta. Which do you run when you have room for it, and why?

I've long been a proponent of going Brimaz over Crusader. You forgot to note the Karakas interaction which makes it a much better creature in a non-RW build (others are correct, RW should go Mirran for tutotrability and a ton of humans makes it more appealing for Caverns). That alone makes it a much better threat against Miracles by a big margin (outside of the times they draw their Karakas, which we can deal with anyway). Mirran dodges Abrupt, but dies to bolt. Brimaz dodges bolt, but dies to Abrupt, BUT is protect-able by Karakas so it dodges a lot more stuff. On an empty board, and outside of equipment, Brimaz deals more damage over turns than Mirran does (3+1, 3+2, 3+3 vs 4). The only matchup where Mirran is clearly better is BUG, but even in that match Brimaz ain't too bad.

[Stevestamopz]

I think both priest and spirit have proven to be pretty mediocre. even if I were playing the mono-white version I think I would play none - more ethersworn canonists are almost always better than spirit or priest, even against the decks spirit and priest are supposed to wreck. priest does barely anything against the best cheat-stuff-into-play deck and spirit does nothing against the best draw spell.

brimaz def doesn't have a place in the red splash lists as crusader is a tutorable finisher.

^^ +1

[c2232]

Alright green splash enthusiast, I am going to be running the Richmond Premier IQ this weekend and I have decided to sleeve up the Teeg (unable to get recruiters this time around). Please flood me with your decklist ideas and match-up nuances. I will try and provide a tourny report on monday. time to get first this time..... second sucks.

[Curby]

@Sarterus great article, but Batterskull is actually the newest addition to the Stoneforge package. We used to run Jitte and SoFI+SoLS. Enevoldsen and I were championing the inclusion of Batterskull here a few years back AFAIK.

Also, I think this is a playstyle choice but I don't dig the singletons in your list at the end of the article. In a deck without search and sift, I feel you'll too often draw the wrong card at the wrong time. I keep railing against decks chock full of 1-ofs and 2-ofs though, seemingly to deaf ears. So I probably have it wrong, but that's my 2c. :cool:

Historical note: I went fact-checking myself, and there were other early supporters of Batterskull too, but a lot of skeptics. One benefit of adding Batterskull was getting a boltproof beater outside of Jotun Grunt, allowing us to free up 1-2 slots (3 maindeck Grunts were the norm at that time). Thomas undervalued SoFI and only ran colorless equipment (Jitte+Batterskull), which seemed like an odd choice both then and now. However, he was one of the first to drop the Tutor package from the side.

[lilevo]

So I haven't had much success playing my usual choice of decks and decided to play D & T last night in the daily if you watch the video you can see it was the right choice for the event.

http://www.twitch.tv/romariovidal/v/8368996

[DisgrunteldElk]

@c2232 I've been playing DnT for a few years now, and about a month ago I started testing the G splash in the current DTT/Miracles meta. Here is what I've been killing people with:

Creatures: 26
4 Mother
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
3 Revoker
2 Teeg
2 Pridemage
3 Serra Avenger
4 Wisp

Spells: 11
4 Vial
4 STP
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Batterskull

Lands: 23
4 Port
4 Waste
3 Karakas
4 W Fetch
4 Savannah
4 Plains

SB: 15
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Choke
1 Sylvan Library
1 Teeg
1 Pridemage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Path to Exile
1 CoP: Red
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 E Tutor
1 Canonist

Matchup Changes:

Miracles: Much better
Between the addition of 2 Teeg and 2 Pridemage in the main, and a Teeg, Pridemage, Choke, Library, and SoWaP post board, the matchup gets much better. Having hard answers to their miracles while having 7 highly disruptable creatures you can protect with Karakas makes the matchup feel much better. Moreover, having Pridemage to blow up CB or vialing one in to blow up a top to draw a card is a beating. On top of that, the SoWaP helps a ton against the Mentor builds, making your clock huge and their creatures unable to block. Finally, Sylvan Library and Choke can actually win the game on their own more often than not.

Elves: Better
Having Teeg to stop both GSZ and NO means that Jitte can often actually go to work without them getting their 1-2 Rec Sages. While the matchup is still rough, it gives a huge advantage as opposed to the Mono White version.

Storm: Much Better
Having Pridemage to blow up Dread of Night and any Petals/LEDs they throw down pre-emptively is huge. Teeg stops their win conditions as well as wished/SB'ed massacres. Choke is big too, and the rest of the deck still has a ton of hate for the deck. Teeg just makes the matchup much better.

Sultai Control/Shardless: Better
The matchup stays the same with the exception of a couple parts: pridemage and teeg as x/2s make you much more resilient to Golgari Charm, and shutting off FoW/DTT is huge. On top of that, being able to grind hard with Library and taxing their ADs with Choke makes for a tough time. Pridemage is phenomenal mostly post board when they bring in hate like Dread of Night (or more likely Null rod). Being able to answer these cards while simultaneously pressure them is huge while they durdle around.

Omni: Better
Having access the the same green hate cards pulls some weight in this matchup: Teeg shuts off DTT and FoW, Pridemage forces them to go off exactly the turn they play Show and Tell, Choke... chokes their mana. The matchup certainly gets better, though not in any big percentage.

Stoneblade variants: Much Better
Qasali Pridemage providing permanent answers to equipment is huge, since we all know that a naked 3/1 TNN is easily raced. Once again, bringing in Choke/Library are incredibly helpful for when the game goes long, and SoWaP blanks all their removal.

Jund: Better
Having Pridemage as a x/2 that makes attackers bigger and provides answers to their potential Jitte/Library/Null Rod/Dread has felt important every time I've played the matchup. While the matchup is still in their favor it has certainly gotten better.

Delver Variants: Slightly Worse
This matchup is really the only one where you take some percentage points. Having a rougher manabase makes their wastes relevant occasionally, but with Thalia, some fliers, and creatures with bigger butts, the matchup is still certainly in our favor.

A point on the sideboard 2 WLL. I was testing out Sigarda as my anti-attrition card, but ultimately found that 5 mana was too rough. Also, WLL pumping Teeg and Pridemage to 4/4s is nothing to sneeze at.

As a final point: if you haven't tried the G splash, I would try it out. The meta has never been better for it, and I'm confident enough in the list to bring it to the Washington DC SCG open in a couple weeks from Texas.

*The matchup analysis is admittedly quick. I'm just trying to get the important information across. If you have any SB questions, just let me know.

[Stevestamopz]

Played in a small 4 round with r/w yesterday.

Round 1: Punishing Jund: 1-1 Draw
Round 2: Four Horsemen sideboard into Show and Tell: 2-1 Win.
Round 3: Elves: 2-1 Win
Round 4: Dredge 1-2 Loss (In game 3 with him on the play he hit me for exactly 20 on turn 2 :cry:)

The deck I played is posted in my signature but it's pretty much Bahra's with Mangara and a worse sideboard. I need something to replace the SoLaS, any ideas?

[Bosque]

Interesting D&T in 11th place at an SCG IQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=88270).

22 land, the full 4 Karakas, 3 Mangara of Corondor (28 creatures) and no Sword of Fire and Ice in the main is certainly a shift from the majority of recently placing lists.

This list and some other discussion recently makes me wonder if a full on tax environment (4 Thalia 4 Wingmare, possibly some number of Phantasmal Image?) might work well with Mangara and Fiend Hunter as removal rather than StP (probably would want to run some Cavern of Souls on Human).

[Fatal]

It can exist but with few condition:
1. Opponent doesn't start with Delver, counter vial, then waste your land.
2. Opponent doesn't play Jund and have dark confidants.
3. Opponent doesn't play MUD and just played turn 1 Metalworker.

Those conditions aren't so common in world of DTT, where most decks abandon wasteland just to play more cantrips / DTT.

Anyway after testing I can say that Fiend Hunter is turn faster then Mangara. Sure Mangara has more application in taxing but this turn can change a lot.

About Phantasmal Image - it's very good card which is scalable on your skill vs opponent skill. Winning vs elves after he tried to hoof me (Flicker vialed to break the math, and block with BSkull), then cast Image coping Hoof, for Lethal was really hilarious. After that I realized that If opponent use his Symbiote better (not to block but to remove hoof in resp to etb trigger) that would change all game.

[Luca Grease]

Hoof isn't an elf, so there's no way he could bounce it with symbiote...

[Fatal]

..sorry if I wasn't write it enough easy:

Opponent bounce some random elf to untap his hoof to block my weenies boosted by Phantasmal Image (Hoof), instead of answer etb which Phantasmal create to target it with Symbiote.

[c2232]

Played the Richmond Premier IQ with the green splash..... I feel like a have been trolled. The green splash did little to nothing and sometimes less. I will not be playing the green splash again.

[Luca Grease]

..sorry if I wasn't write it enough easy:

Opponent bounce some random elf to untap his hoof to block my weenies boosted by Phantasmal Image (Hoof), instead of answer etb which Phantasmal create to target it with Symbiote.

I still don't understand... Target what in response to the image's etb trigger? The hoof? Isn't that what he did anyway?

[Bosque]

It can exist but with few condition:
1. Opponent doesn't start with Delver, counter vial, then waste your land.
2. Opponent doesn't play Jund and have dark confidants.
3. Opponent doesn't play MUD and just played turn 1 Metalworker.

Those conditions aren't so common in world of DTT, where most decks abandon wasteland just to play more cantrips / DTT.

Anyway after testing I can say that Fiend Hunter is turn faster then Mangara. Sure Mangara has more application in taxing but this turn can change a lot.

About Phantasmal Image - it's very good card which is scalable on your skill vs opponent skill. Winning vs elves after he tried to hoof me (Flicker vialed to break the math, and block with BSkull), then cast Image coping Hoof, for Lethal was really hilarious. After that I realized that If opponent use his Symbiote better (not to block but to remove hoof in resp to etb trigger) that would change all game.

I guess I should have qualified this with some statement of "I think running more 3 cmc creatures looks really slow but..." ;)

[from Cairo]

I think what's being said is that when Fatal cast Phantasmal Image copying Craterhoof Behemoth his elves opponent responded to the +X/+X trigger by using Symbiote to untap Image triggering it to sac and the Behemoth trigger then resolves for +X-1/+X-1, where instead if they'd used Symbiote to untap Craterhoof as a blocker it might have been better... I fail to see how though.

[redtwister]

@C2232
So what happened?
What decks did you play?
What was your list?

[c2232]

@C2232
So what happened?
What decks did you play?
What was your list?

yeah sorry but not really in the mood to give a huge tourny report on it.... i ended up losing to the jeskai deck that won, lands, and goblins.... the jeskai guy was just on a heater though the teegs are pretty piss poor against hiim and every other stoneblade deck, the lands match up is horrible, and i cant even explain goblins other than i had pointless green cards in my deck and fetchlands dealing damage to me for no reason.

[CptHaddock]

yeah sorry but not really in the mood to give a huge tourny report on it.... i ended up losing to the jeskai deck that won, lands, and goblins.... the jeskai guy was just on a heater though the teegs are pretty piss poor against hiim and every other stoneblade deck, the lands match up is horrible, and i cant even explain goblins other than i had pointless green cards in my deck and fetchlands dealing damage to me for no reason.

Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.

[Luca Grease]

I think what's being said is that when Fatal cast Phantasmal Image copying Craterhoof Behemoth his elves opponent responded to the +X/+X trigger by using Symbiote to untap Image triggering it to sac and the Behemoth trigger then resolves for +X-1/+X-1, where instead if they'd used Symbiote to untap Craterhoof as a blocker it might have been better... I fail to see how though.

Oh, so symbiote can target your opponent's creatures, I had missed that. Still, hardly a compelling argument for running phantasmal image

[nevilshute]

So, how have people been liking the new Pegasus? Is it the real deal? A 1, 2, 3 or 4 of? I haven't been playing much D&T lately, but will probably take it for a spin soon (monoW).

[c2232]

Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.

I would say that mono white is just as good as the green splash if not better. I did beat omni-tell, D&T, and a weird pox/lands mash up...... Again though I had useless cards in the D&T and Pox matches.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.Absolutely not. Pridemage, Teeg, and Sylvan Library are all relevant against Goblins, Teeg mainly because every Goblins player will side in Pyrokinesis against DnT. Pridemage blows up their Vials, and they plain don't have an answer to Library.

Against Lands, you absolutely want Sylvan Library, and an early Pridemage is great against Exploration, often a reason to keep an otherwise mediocre hand for them. The most relevant cards are still Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle, and Wasteland, but there isn't any discernible net-loss from playing green splash against Lands.

I think Disguruntled Elk is right from before: the only matchups you lose a few % points to is Delver, and those are generally very positive already. I'm of the mind that "loss" might be negligible with Choke coming in, but basically your only real concern is Stifle.

[c2232]

Absolutely not.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. I don't see myself trying the green splash again but that's me, I wish you luck with it.

[Curby]

I guess it comes down to personal preference. I don't see myself trying the green splash again but that's me, I wish you luck with it.


[a] small sample size upon which to base conclusions for performance in a larger context.

You've obviously more experience with the Red splash than the Green. Your results still make a valid data point, but it would be nice to hear from some more experienced Green splash players.

You're also a well-known proponent of the Red splash, which may affect the results. I'm not saying you're trying to sabotage your experiences with Green, but confirmation bias works in subtle ways. (Thoughts like "This can't possibly be as good as Red, can it?" can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.)



I highly encourage you to continue playing red splash if you're adamantly against green. One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

Roughly how many total games have you played with Green, vs. how many with Red and mono-white? Pilot familiarity is an important factor. It's natural to be discouraged with a poor result, but to let that cast an overly pessimistic view of the deck doesn't do you (or the deck) any favors.

Given that there are a lot of red splash fans here, I'm certainly interested in its further developments. Have you been able to find a way to fit Vryn Wingmare into your builds? If so, how has it performed? Mono-white fans have been going nuts over it, and I think I can fit up to two in the Green splash, though I'm hesitant about what it will do to my susceptibility to sweepers and removal, as they are yet more x/1 creatures.

[c2232]

Roughly how many total games have you played with Green, vs. how many with Red and mono-white? Pilot familiarity is an important factor. It's natural to be discouraged with a poor result, but to let that cast an overly pessimistic view of the deck doesn't do you (or the deck) any favors.

Given that there are a lot of red splash fans here, I'm certainly interested in its further developments. Have you been able to find a way to fit Vryn Wingmare into your builds? If so, how has it performed? Mono-white fans have been going nuts over it, and I think I can fit up to two in the Green splash, though I'm hesitant about what it will do to my susceptibility to sweepers and removal, as they are yet more x/1 creatures.

Mono White I have thousands of matches, green I would say close to 100 or so (I tested it pretty hard in the little time I had), with red I actually have the PIQ I played in Baltimore and that's it. It's not a pessimistic view at all, I gave it a legitimate run and I personally believe it performed poorly in the vast majority of games I played.... I think Teeg should be moved to the sideboard as he is just plain useless in a lot of games, and was usually the first thing I sided out. I'm currently busting my ass to get one more recruiter so I can run red in the DC Open and I feel confident in it, I will be testing the shit out it for the next 1.5 weeks just to make sure I know a bit better.

[Morzas]

So, how have people been liking the new Pegasus? Is it the real deal? A 1, 2, 3 or 4 of? I haven't been playing much D&T lately, but will probably take it for a spin soon (monoW).

I ran it as a 4-of last week at Card Kingdom and went 3-1. Being able to have it and Thalia in play, or even better, two copies of it and a Thalia felt very strong. I didn't miss my Serra Avengers or my one-of Mangara at all. The card strengthens my game against unfair decks, which are the ones I'm more worried about. Serra Avenger is very strong against fair decks but my real haymaker in those games is Stoneforge Mystic, not Avenger.

[Barook]

After Fatal brought it up a few pages ago, I'm going to test the following list:

4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Vryn Wingmare

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares

3rd Revoker could be the 4th StP, this is subject to change, same for the exact manabase distribution between fetches, duals and basics. I haven't taken a real look on the SB so far.

Image is a quite interesting card, but I need more playtesting to really judge it. Fiend Hunters might be SB material.

[nevilshute]

After Fatal brought it up a few pages ago, I'm going to test the following list:

4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phantasmal Image
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Vryn Wingmare

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

SB: 4 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares

3rd Revoker could be the 4th StP, this is subject to change, same for the exact manabase distribution between fetches, duals and basics. I haven't taken a real look on the SB so far.

Image is a quite interesting card, but I need more playtesting to really judge it. Fiend Hunters might be SB material.

3 Images as the sole :u: seems... Not worth the added cost of running Tundra.

What about Meddling Mage?

[from Cairo]

What about Meddling Mage?

Maybe dropping something like a Wingmare and a Image for 2 Meddling Mage?
Having Mage seems like big game against OmniTell hitting SnT, Miracles hitting Terminus, and can do some work against other combo or engine fueled decks - Dig, Loam, PFire, etc.

[Barook]

3 Images as the sole :u: seems... Not worth the added cost of running Tundra.

What about Meddling Mage?
It's 4 Images, not 3. And as I said, the manabase is just a rough draw - could easily be something like 3 Tundra/5 fetches. I would definitely try to go with 8 blue sources, though.

I'm aware of Medding Mage since Fatal's base list had 2 MD, but I don't think it's MD material. SB, yeah, that could work. But I haven't seen anybody running Pikula outside of SBs in a long time, probably with good reason.

Edit. For shit and giggles, I'm going to test this greedy monstrosity:

2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Tundra
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Pithing Needle
2 Council's Judgment
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sudden Demise
1 Mirran Crusader

I also wonder how good Geist of Saint Traft would be as Recruiter target here.

[Barook]

Sorry for the double post, but since there is barely any discussion right now anyway, I'd like to throw this in:

I'm back to testing my Wg Noble Hierarch build. Exalted has been pretty excellent so far. While Wg has some attractive options that red lacks, it doesn't have the raw hate power the red splash could provide with Magus of the Moon and Sudden Demise. 3 colors at the same time are definitely undoable in D&T. However, what about a transformable sideboard? Theorycrafting lead me to this: (And before people ask, KotR and SDT are currently flexslots that need testing. They could be easily something else like other beaters, Wingmare, Teeg, Revoker or Pridemage.)

2 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Plateau

4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
2 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
1 Plateau
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Sudden Demise

Before you wonder about the weird 1/1 Plateau split: Both the green and red splash require at least ~9 colored sources to operate smoothly. Since I already made heavy compromises with the SB, I don't have the space to put in a second Plateau. On the other hand, I don't want to go below two basics or duals for the respective splashes, hence the current split. If you decide to side out Hierarchs, the Plateau is also the standard 23rd land, bringing you back to 23 lands/15 white sources.

I admit it's very unconventional, but unlike the joke deck I've posted above, this is crazy enough that it might actually work. As long as you don't try to force tri-color post-board, you should be able to draw from the strength of either splash post-board, depending on the match-up.

[frenadol]

Interesting list, but I see some glaring problems about that deck:

1. Hierarch doesn't add red mana for the Magus and especially Sudden Demise. KotR + Vial is not going to be enough to reliably drop them. I'd run BoP rather than Hierarch in that case, the bird also flies to get in for extra evasion. You lose the Exalted trigger but adding red mana is more important IMO since Magus is going to be relevant in a lot of matchups. You could take out the sideboard Plateau that way.

2. With a KotR kit and 25+ creatures I would want a Cradle somewhere in the mana base. Helps a lot with the 3 equipment and activating Top and Port.

[Barook]

Interesting list, but I see some glaring problems about that deck:

1. Hierarch doesn't add red mana for the Magus and especially Sudden Demise. KotR + Vial is not going to be enough to reliably drop them. I'd run BoP rather than Hierarch in that case, the bird also flies to get in for extra evasion. You lose the Exalted trigger but adding red mana is more important IMO since Magus is going to be relevant in a lot of matchups. You could take out the sideboard Plateau that way.

2. With a KotR kit and 25+ creatures I would want a Cradle somewhere in the mana base. Helps a lot with the 3 equipment and activating Top and Port.

As long as you don't try to force tri-color post-board
1. Emphasize mine.

You don't run green alongside red. That's the whole point of being a transformable sideboard. You swap out one splash for the other. I'm currently testing Hierarch because it gives you a higher mana source density/accel without card disadvantage while the Exalted trigger makes even meek creatures into sizeable threats (instead of being another dead mana source draw). A 0/1 flyer by itself isn't too impressive until you slap a SoFaI on it. And fetching a green source to play a mana dork that can produce red seems like a questionable plan when you could just fetch a red source in the first place.

2. I'm not a fan of adding more off-color, potentially dead lands for 2 lousy KotR that might be changed into Wingmares if they fail to impress me.

[Curby]

As you've said it's awkward to run manadorks that don't produce the colors of your deck, but it's also awkward to fetch color A to produce color B a turn later. This points to the idea that there's simply no way to effectively shove three colors into the 75, but I'll be interested to hear if something pans out.

I'd suggest replacing the maindeck Plateau with a Taiga, and Flooded Strand with Arid Mesa, to alleviate splash issues. Maybe add the 8th fetch to return to 23 land. Attempting a 22-card manabase with heavy color requirements and 8 brown land may be too greedy. Hierarch could become the land. You'd end up with better color support (14 land that can produce white, 11 that can produce green, 10 postboard that can produce red). The single color splashes have tried a single off-color basic. Again it's awkward when you draw that and two brown land, but at least this time it can be used to cast a Hierarch/BoP, and concessions must be made when you get this greedy.

You'll be right in the bullseye of anyone running Stifle, and will be further disadvantaged against Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc. I'm really not convinced that the extra vulnerability and inconsistency is worth the added power, but it's an interesting idea.

[Barook]

As you've said it's awkward to run manadorks that don't produce the colors of your deck, but it's also awkward to fetch color A to produce color B a turn later. This points to the idea that there's simply no way to effectively shove three colors into the 75, but I'll be interested to hear if something pans out.

I'd suggest replacing the maindeck Plateau with a Taiga, and Flooded Strand with Arid Mesa, to alleviate splash issues. Maybe add the 8th fetch to return to 23 land. Attempting a 22-card manabase with heavy color requirements and 8 brown land may be too greedy. Hierarch could become the land. You'd end up with better color support (14 land that can produce white, 11 that can produce green, 10 postboard that can produce red). The single color splashes have tried a single off-color basic. Again it's awkward when you draw that and two brown land, but at least this time it can be used to cast a Hierarch/BoP, and concessions must be made when you get this greedy.

You'll be right in the bullseye of anyone running Stifle, and will be further disadvantaged against Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc. I'm really not convinced that the extra vulnerability and inconsistency is worth the added power, but it's an interesting idea.
Taiga in the MD does absolutely nothing as the deck runs zero red cards before boarding - it would simply be a nonbasic Forest. As for sideboarding, you might have a point, as there might be odd cases where you want Magus alongside green cards, e.g. Teeg, for specific match-ups. Swaping the SB Plateau for a Taiga is something I'll keep in mind, but I need to see more testing results before making any hasty decisions because that is really greedy.

That said, the 22-mana base with Hierarchs has been pretty smooth so far. Vial contributes a great deal to that. As it stands now, I don't see any reason to cut Hierarchs for more lands.

Yes, Stifle (http://www.mtggoldfish.com/format-staples/legacy/full/spells), B2B and PoP are going to hit hard, but their numbers are rather low in the general metagame. Blood Moon is also a thing and probably the most relevant. Hierarchs should help to migate some of the that damage, though. Be aware that the manabase isn't all too different from Imperial Taxes. The only thing they got going for them is 3 basics vs 2 basis here, which is only a minor difference with 7 fetches each.

[LanciatoreDiBanane]

I think that you should give a shot to Gaea's Cradle, as already suggested.
Since you like playing with mana dorks, I believe that you will no regret it. Your gW build has more mana and is one turn faster than standard mono W (one of the main reasons for playing the G spash, imho). Cradle helps you a lot at playing an equipment and equipping in the same turn and you will find this useful in many games.

I would try -2 top, -1 port, +1 KotR, +1 cradle, +1 G producing land (savannah, cavern of souls, canopy).
In particular, I would cut the 4th port in favour of a colored land because you have green 1 drop and 9 sources is really a low count (I believe that 11 green sources are required in this deck). KotR is good a finding ports when you need them :).
Finally, tops are really good at improving the consistence of the deck but I would cut them when testing the G splash. In fact, I suggest you to focus on evaluating green cards (KotR, ramp cards, bears, whatever you like) first. Then, when you are convinced of the green splash and once you have figured out the cards that you want, you could start toying with tops.

My 2 cents

[Barook]

I cut the KotRs for 2 Wingmares (since I want immediate impact on the board instead of waiting for a turn; also 4 flyers aren't enough). Top is alright, but I'll try out a 3rd Wingmare and a 3rd Revoker in its slots instead and see how it goes.

Also trying out the Taiga in the board instead to Plateau.

If anybody wants to test KotRs with Cradle, feel free to do so. The more data, the better.

I still see no need to adjust the manabase. I haven't had much chance to test the red splash so far since I rarely had matches where it came up, but the green side is running like a charm. Vial acts technically as green mana source for all intents of purposes.

[DisgrunteldElk]

Hey everyone, I got to play my green splash (I posted it a couple pages ago) in a just-shy of 50 people tournament yesterday, and won the whole thing, going 4-1-1 in swiss and then crushing the top 8. I played against miracles 4 times (3 in swiss, and then again in finals). I'll give a more detailed report later, but I played:

Round 1: Mono W DnT 2-0
Round 2: Omni-show 0-2
Round 3: Miracles 2-1
Round 4: Dredge 2-1
Round 5: Miracles 2-0
Round 6: Miracles 1-1-1

Top 8:
Quarters: Merfolk: 2-1
Semis: Arbiter/Prison DnT: 2-0
Finals: Miracles: 2-0

All-in-all, I went 7-1-1 (15-6-1 games), and the list felt very strong. I tweaked the board a bit before the event, but I felt very ahead in most match-ups.

Also, if anyone has any interest, I'd be happy to post a tournament report I have.

[Barbed Blightning]

Idk about these color splashes, guys.

I mean, I can see the merit of Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg/Magus and bomby shit like TNN and Recruiter, but is this really worth it at the end of the day? Like, where/when has the monowhite version really gone so wrong? I think we can either play better or find more unique solutions within the mono-color restraint.

My main is pretty stock. 4 Avenger, 2 Mangara, 2 Revoker and 2 Wingmare round out the flexes. This is my board right now:


3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus


More dudes with useful abilities. Four outs, more or less, to Omni, and some decent hate against these Dig decks. Fiend Hunter is the only one I really question, but he's still an out to Emrakul. And, if you want to get cute with him (and I mean real cute), you can use him to keep one of your own creatures tucked away against Miracles.



I will say, however, that the red splash so far brings the most actual value to the table, via Recruiter. Until we see a properly color-shifted version of him, I feel like he is the only reason to splash (with Magus and Demise simply being icing on the cake).

[c2232]

Idk about these color splashes, guys.

Don't bother bringing it up, it's a lost cause.... Stick with the mono-white version (Recruiters aren't the easiest card to get). I Believe mono-white is still very solid and consistent, There may be a few bad matchups (very few in comparison to most decks) but intelligent play and knowledge of the matchup helps alot.

[iatee]

I feel like the recruiter $ has held this splash at bay for years, but it really does solve the deck's biggest problem (having basically no card selection). but it's very good and the full potential is still fairly unexplored - again, mostly just because people don't want to shell out for recruiters.

[cursecatcher]

Has anyone accumulated much experience with Vryn Wingmare? My inclination is to think jamming 4 is correct and that's the version I currently have put together, but I haven't had the chance to play many test games yet.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Don't bother bringing it up, it's a lost cause.... Stick with the mono-white versionhttp://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?comment=12407

Yea, "lost cause". Very easy to dismiss something when you have no true knowledge of what you're doing with it.

[Barbed Blightning]

Has anyone accumulated much experience with Vryn Wingmare? My inclination is to think jamming 4 is correct and that's the version I currently have put together, but I haven't had the chance to play many test games yet.

This is my main right now:


4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Vryn Wingmare
2x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor

4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

1x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Snow-Covered Plains


I've found with my testing that Wingmare is... ok. Not terrible, just redundant--which is huge vs something like Delver where you want to keep its effect out and they are doing all the can to kill it. The loss of the revokers has be negligible; everything nowadays is spell-centric anyway, and he's pretty weak vs Miracles.

Ultimately, Wingmare flies and that is a big deal. When compared to its contemporary candidate in Aven Mindcensor, I think I'll take Wingmare almost any day.


But would I run four? No. The benefits don't outweigh the loss, especially if you are digging into the Avenger count (which should be four).

[c2232]

This is my main right now:

Looks pretty solid. I tested a four of and it seemed a little too much, I'm gonna try three but I'm sure I will end up at two. Now if your meta is nothing but miracles and modern decks I would strongly recommend the green splash, I have heard it does well in that meta.

[Fatal]

Note about Blue splash on long term testing:

Maddling Mage is very, very good in current meta. Correct naming is key of this powerful card, it's like UW Cabal Therapy on legs. Specially from Vial. Miracle ability triggers so it gives window to use vial in response.

I cut 1 Phantasmal Image since it's not great vs heavy removal MU, it's dead draw from top and add 1 more MM.

Added Spell Pierce to SB add catch all answer.

[Stevestamopz]

I did some tweaking on the R/W list and jammed a few games against Mentor Miracles yesterday, going 5-1 against it yesterday.

6 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
1 Cavern of Souls

4 Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge
4 Mum
4 Flickerwisp
3 Revoker
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mangara
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
3 Sudden Demise
2 Council's Judgement
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Manic Vandal (Flex slot)

Any thoughts/ideas/critiques? The deck just feels so good right about now.

[Barook]

How good had been Goblin Sharpshooter for you so far?

[Tristin183]

I have tested a little with winter orb and ensnaring bridge, they both seem to be uncommon and not as useful as I wish. How has your luck been with the orb? Where do you use it? And sharpshooter looks awesome at a glance. Taking out mirror creatures, mentor and pyro tokens seems awesome for us to use. I can't wait to hear more!

[Stevestamopz]

It's probably too early to give a judgement on Sharpshooter, but it has exceeded expectations so far. It is such a good card in Goblins (probably the only good card in the whole deck) and now with ways to protect it (flickerwisp, mum) it's much more resilient.

It's probably a terrible top-deck, but in long grindy games it can make a huge difference whether it's pinging your opponent each time a creature dies, combining with jitte counters or the fire+ice shock to take down creatures, or just wiping a whole deck off of x-1s. Also stoneforge can get a basilisk collar for it if you want to be super cute :laugh:

As for Winter Orb, I wanted an armageddon effect, but geddon/cataclysm doesn't synergise too well with a 2 colour deck with very limited red sources, so I figured people used to play winter orb back in the day and it fits the bill nicely for what I'm after. Sick combo with Rishadan Port too :cool:

I went T1 Vial into T2 Winter orb, into T3 Thalia (through the Vial) against Miracles and it was just game over. Their deck is so mana-hungry that only giving them 1 land a turn is just super back-breaking, especially as most don't play too many lands and instead rely on spinning top and cantripping to find their lands.

I'm super super super excited to take this list a tournament! Unfortunately Australia doesn't seem to enjoy Legacy as much as Europe does :(
Oh, and R/W Taxes (the bahra list) took me to the top 8 (4th seed) in the Melbourne Legacy League. The splash is indeed very good in my humble opinion.

Among many things I'm not sure on, should I play 3 plateaus or 3 karakas'? I kinda want both, but that's probably a bit too greedy.

[TokugawaEdo]

Is there like a rule of thumb when it comes to what equipment to fetch with stoneforge?

[Koke_MTG]

I played yesterday a Legacy tournament in my LGS with 30 players there. I played mono-white D&T with a couple of Vryn Wingmares. Here is the list I played:

4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
2 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Vryn Wingmare

4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
7 x Plains
3 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Karakas
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Cavern of Souls

SB:

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
1 x Pithing Needle
2 x Chalice of the Void
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
2 x Ratchet Bomb
3 x Rest in Peace

I finished 4-1 with this list, but I am getting pretty good results here with mono white. Last tournaments I played with the deck I made 4-1-0 and another 4-1 but with different lists. Changes I did for yesterday tournament were:

-2 Aven Mindcensor
+2 Vryn Wingmare

-1 Containment Priest
-1 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Chalice of the Void

My matchups yesterday were:

Round 1: RUG Delver --> 2-0
Round 2: TES --> 0-2
Round 3: Elves --> 2-1
Round 4: Grixis Delver with DRS --> 2-0
Round 5: Reanimator --> 2-0

I wondered with Vryn Wingmare. I won power especially against Delver with them, but it is great against combo too (Except Elves obviously). It's pretty good force opponent to play Braintorms by 3 mana with Thalia in play too. I will meditate play the third Vryn Wingmare because represents the pure style of the archetype.

Chalice of the Void was pretty good too. Had a great impact onto the battlefield, sideboarding it in in all rounds except against Reanimator. With Vryn, Chalice and the rest of the staff, Delver decks are pretty easy to win. It is close to a bye, especially with this list.
I tried Chalice of the Void because I wanted to minimize DTT's impact in game trying to cancel the rest of spells like Ponder, Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe... In this situation DTT supose less advantage for opponents I think. I did the same in TC era and I thought was the time to try it again.
With Chalice you play relaxed because you will not eat any Bolt/StP too, and against Delver, in addition, you avoid opponent to play Delver and DRS. They are forced to destroy it, so it is possible yo can play and equip your equipment in a clean field without Decay or Grip. I think Chalice is one of the most underrated cards in the format and I am watching here in Europe an increase of Chalice with MUD and 4C-Loam to counter the hostile format.

Personally, I do not understand D&T lists with 3 colors. It is crazy. Mono-white remains very strong, can be adapted to the metagame. Imperial Taxes seems really good and I want to try it, but I already tried Teeg & Taxes and it is not better than mono-white. It is better against Miracles and Blade, but it is worse against Delver and Lands for example. So I do not understand the disappearance of the mono-white version from this forum. It is at least at the same height as the other 2 versions.

[hotlikedimes]

I played my esper thopters against mono white DnT the other day and it was brutal. Mangara of Corondor was huge for him with karakas. not sure what the opinions are on him, but he was brutal in the early game coming down t3 after land -> vial, waste -> karakas + Mangara. Kept me off all my lands :(

I agree that mono white seems to be extremely strong and with access to chalice and some other really good hate cards, seems like it's the go to choice.

[Plague Sliver]

If Merfolk can run Vial and Chalice in their 75, we could definitely give it a try here.

I'm pretty convinced that the meta today is defined by the new pillars Chalice, LED and DTT. To not run any of the 3 puts the Legacy player at a disadvantage.

[Stevestamopz]

Is there like a rule of thumb when it comes to what equipment to fetch with stoneforge?

Sword of Fire and Ice: control matchups when you want to start drawing cards e.g miracles (and obviously against decks where the protection clause is relevant)
Batterskull: when you want to gain a tonne of life or get something that can't be abrupt decayed (although remember that the germ token can be)
Jitte - Creature decks: elves, goblins, the mirror etc or when you want to kill your own creatures e.g. dredge.

I've over simplified this because there's no way to answer your question properly because what you search for should be determined by the board-state and what's in your hand first and foremost.

[Barook]

If Merfolk can run Vial and Chalice in their 75, we could definitely give it a try here.
That disregards that they have no relevant 1-drops aside from Vial. Cursecatcher is meh anyway and could be cast through a Cavern.

We, on the other hand, have Mom, StP and Vial. Depends on the match-up how relevant those are.

[CptHaddock]

I played at the SCG DC Open yesterday, sadly I went 3-4 and ended up dropping. My matches were as following:

0 - 2 Storm (ANT)
2 - 1 D&T
2 - 0 Thopter Miracles
2 - 0 Burn
1 - 2 Grixis Delver (Lost this game because I didn't identify his game until G3. G1 he showed me only a volcanic, G2 he showed me only an underground/tropical with a delver and a deathrite. I found G3 that he was actually grixis and not 4 color, so my deck wasn't really prepared for a mass amount tokens made from young pyro.)
1 - 2 Ponder Miracles
0 - 2 Omni

Walking around there was a good mix of everything but I saw a lot of burn, d&t and lands. There were a few sneak and show players in the top 32ish area (sadly didn't get to play against those). Some of the miracles players I saw playing seemed to have sulfur elementals in their board if they weren't running mentor. Is this a common thing to do now?

[neddsaurus]

I played at the SCG DC Open yesterday, sadly I went 3-4 and ended up dropping. My matches were as following:

0 - 2 Storm (ANT)
2 - 1 D&T
2 - 0 Thopter Miracles
2 - 0 Burn
1 - 2 Grixis Delver (Lost this game because I didn't identify his game until G3. G1 he showed me only a volcanic, G2 he showed me only an underground/tropical with a delver and a deathrite. I found G3 that he was actually grixis and not 4 color, so my deck wasn't really prepared for a mass amount tokens made from young pyro.)
1 - 2 Ponder Miracles
0 - 2 Omni

Walking around there was a good mix of everything but I saw a lot of burn, d&t and lands. There were a few sneak and show players in the top 32ish area (sadly didn't get to play against those). Some of the miracles players I saw playing seemed to have sulfur elementals in their board if they weren't running mentor. Is this a common thing to do now?
It's for mentors and monks. What version of dnt did u play

[CptHaddock]

It's for mentors and monks. What version of dnt did u play

Played a pretty stock mono white d&t list. There was some slight spiciness in the sideboard.


4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Serra Avenger
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Aether Vial

4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
10 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard

2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Gut Shot
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Cataclysm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment

[Barook]

Has anybody else running the green splash tested out Noble Hierarch yet? It has been excellent so far in my testing and I'm considering adding a 4th copy.

My main concern with the green splash is still the lack of decent additional creature removal. Any ideas how to tackle that?

[Finn]

Has anybody else running the green splash tested out Noble Hierarch yet? It has been excellent so far in my testing and I'm considering adding a 4th copy.

My main concern with the green splash is still the lack of decent additional creature removal. Any ideas how to tackle that?

With four Hierarchs it may make sense to include some Engineered Explosives in the board. At three colors you start to nab True Name Nemesis as a very nice side effect.

[iatee]

I've been thinking of testing 3 stoneforge mystics and putting batterskull in the sb. playing w/ 3 recruiters ensures you can still get one in a fair matchup, and it gives more space for a 1-of wishboard main. what do people think of this list?

lands - 23
5 Fetch
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
3 Cavern of Souls

spells - 10
4 Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Jitte
4 Swords to Plowshares

creatures - 27
4 Thalia
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
3 Stoneforge
3 Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vryn Wingmare

sb
1 Savannah
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Batterskull
2 Sudden Demise
2 Rest in Peace
1 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Containment Priest

[c2232]

Any thoughts/ideas/critiques? The deck just feels so good right about now.

No Jitte? Please enlighten me.

[Stevestamopz]

No Jitte? Please enlighten me.

Oops, that was a typo. Jitte is in the mainboard.

I played some games against Reanimator, 4 Colour Delver, Aggro Loam, Mentor Miracles and Omnitell today, and the deck just seemed to cut right through them like a buzz-saw.

I changed the mana-base to the full greed (3 Karakas, 3 Plateau, 6 Fetches, 2 Plains, 4 Waste, 4 Port, 1 Cavern) and it was just awesome. It's obviously much easier to get punished but so far it's felt so good having the maximum "power" from the land-spells.

[Barook]

Oops, that was a typo. Jitte is in the mainboard.

I played some games against Reanimator, 4 Colour Delver, Aggro Loam, Mentor Miracles and Omnitell today, and the deck just seemed to cut right through them like a buzz-saw.

I changed the mana-base to the full greed (3 Karakas, 3 Plateau, 6 Fetches, 2 Plains, 4 Waste, 4 Port, 1 Cavern) and it was just awesome. It's obviously much easier to get punished but so far it's felt so good having the maximum "power" from the land-spells.
How do you feel about your current creature base? Do you like losing the additional Magi in the MD for the 3rd Recruiter? How did Sharpshooter perform in the meantime?

[Stevestamopz]

How do you feel about your current creature base? Do you like losing the additional Magi in the MD for the 3rd Recruiter? How did Sharpshooter perform in the meantime?

I really love the creature base right now honestly. I know one should never get too caught up in results based thinking, especially when we're in relatively un-chartered waters, but so far it has just been crushing for me.

Sharpshooter combo's really well with creature's dying (duh), but it is just bananas, especially with Mother of Runes. Sword of fire and Ice can shoot down one deathrite, and then with the untap trigger on the stack, you can shoot another deathrite, let the trigger resolve, and then shoot it again. It just makes combat math super unfavourable for your opponent, and it can even ping Planeswalkers when the board-state gets clogged up. I'm not even being hyperbolic when I say that Goblin Sharpshooter is better in R/W Taxes than it is in Goblins.

One thing I do miss are the extra fliers from mono-white. I was never particularly fond of Serra Avenger because she's just a somewhat slow vanilla beater, but not having it makes me realise why she's in mono-white in the first place.

As for Magus, I'm a huge fan of the card, but it's no longer the absolute crusher it was a few months ago when BUG decks were all the rage. Now it's just a Silver Bullet to tutor for with an additional copy in the sideboard for those matchups where it is just insane. Overall I've been very pleased with the 3rd copy of Recruiter, especially with the various silver bulllets I have in my maindeck and sideboard. It's such a pity Recruiter can't get Flickerwisp :laugh:

[iatee]

I like the idea of sharpshooter and it might be right for the sideboard...but it still seems bad-to-god awful in so many games.

[Nihils]

I really love the creature base right now honestly. I know one should never get too caught up in results based thinking, especially when we're in relatively un-chartered waters, but so far it has just been crushing for me.

Sharpshooter combo's really well with creature's dying (duh), but it is just bananas, especially with Mother of Runes. Sword of fire and Ice can shoot down one deathrite, and then with the untap trigger on the stack, you can shoot another deathrite, let the trigger resolve, and then shoot it again. It just makes combat math super unfavourable for your opponent, and it can even ping Planeswalkers when the board-state gets clogged up. I'm not even being hyperbolic when I say that Goblin Sharpshooter is better in R/W Taxes than it is in Goblins.

One thing I do miss are the extra fliers from mono-white. I was never particularly fond of Serra Avenger because she's just a somewhat slow vanilla beater, but not having it makes me realise why she's in mono-white in the first place.

As for Magus, I'm a huge fan of the card, but it's no longer the absolute crusher it was a few months ago when BUG decks were all the rage. Now it's just a Silver Bullet to tutor for with an additional copy in the sideboard for those matchups where it is just insane. Overall I've been very pleased with the 3rd copy of Recruiter, especially with the various silver bulllets I have in my maindeck and sideboard. It's such a pity Recruiter can't get Flickerwisp :laugh:

For reference: my main is basically the list you posted but -1 Recruiter (only own two) -1 Sharpshooter (he's in the SB) +1 Vryn Wingmare (more fliers; more combo hate) +1 Magus of the Moon (none in the side).

I haven't taken a serious look at it yet, but I've been considering trading out 2-3 Revokers (and/or maybe move 1 Magus of the Moon to the SB) for 2-3 Avengers. Avenger has always been solid for me, and I do love the additional fliers. Revoker's utility seems to be at a low at the moment (I'm expecting a lot of Omni so I'd rather have the extra clock). I've also been concerned about the number of x/1s that this list plays. If I do the switch, I'd fit in another Pithing Needle in the board.

[Barook]

For reference: my main is basically the list you posted but -1 Recruiter (only own two) -1 Sharpshooter (he's in the SB) +1 Vryn Wingmare (more fliers; more combo hate) +1 Magus of the Moon (none in the side).

I haven't taken a serious look at it yet, but I've been considering trading out 2-3 Revokers (and/or maybe move 1 Magus of the Moon to the SB) for 2-3 Avengers. Avenger has always been solid for me, and I do love the additional fliers. Revoker's utility seems to be at a low at the moment (I'm expecting a lot of Omni so I'd rather have the extra clock). I've also been concerned about the number of x/1s that this list plays. If I do the switch, I'd fit in another Pithing Needle in the board.
I was just about to discuss Revokers. There seems to be a new trend to completely cut Revokers from the MD due to the current meta. While I'm not a fan of that, how about cutting it down to 1 copy MD? With 3 Recruiters, we should still have a high enough density in the MD, plus packing probably more in the SB. I was also about to suggest Wingmare since it seems to be the real deal, plus it's a tutorable flyer.

I'm thinking about a creature base like this:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 flex-spot (Mangara, Sharpshooter, Leonin Relic-Warder, Fiend Hunter, Canonist etc.)

[iatee]

If you cut the revokers entirely, an early DRS can often blank your magus auto-win. Guess that's less of an issue if you're only playing one magus.

Wingmare definitely seems worth playing and perhaps in multiples. I think I'm going up to 2 with my list. With recruiters you can tutor up a stack of them + thalia.

[Nihils]

I was just about to discuss Revokers. There seems to be a new trend to completely cut Revokers from the MD due to the current meta. While I'm not a fan of that, how about cutting it down to 1 copy MD? With 3 Recruiters, we should still have a high enough density in the MD, plus packing probably more in the SB. I was also about to suggest Wingmare since it seems to be the real deal, plus it's a tutorable flyer.

I'm thinking about a creature base like this:

4 Mom
4 Thalia
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 flex-spot (Mangara, Sharpshooter, Leonin Relic-Warder, Fiend Hunter, Canonist etc.)

Looks good to me. Like I had said, I am missing the 3rd Recruiter so I would personally run that same creature base (with Mangara in the flex) with -1 Recruiter +1 Avenger/Magus/Wingmare (probably Avenger with the extra Magus in the side).

I'll try out the list at the Super IQ in Charlotte this weekend. I haven't had the opportunity to play Legacy in a couple of months (played the green splash) so I'm probably rusty enough that the trip will be more fun than competitive. :P

[redtwister]

@Barbed Blightning
I'm pretty close to your build. I went with 1 Spirit of the Labyrinth and +1 Vryn Wingmare over the 2 Mangara of Corondor because in my locals that feels like a better option. I'm also feeling Vryn needs to be a 3-4 of to get the value.

I've moved away from Wg because I think the format is more punishing to multi-color manabases right now, especially with Lands so big in the format and the Delver decks going back to 4 Wasteland. If I had the $$, I would do more than test Imperial Taxes, and if we end back up in an Elf format, I'll figure out how to pony up the cash for Imperial Tutor.

In the meantime, my 75 is this (yes, I was tweaking from the near-time post on MTG.)

4x Flickerwisp
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Vryn Wingmare
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth

4x AEther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte

1x Cavern of Souls
1x Mishra's Factory
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Snow-Covered Plains

Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Cataclysm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Path to Exile
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Containment Priest

[groombug]

Long-time lurker here...

Played this to 6-1, 6th place at Eternal Weekend Legacy Champ Trials:

16x The Usual Suspects (SFM, MoR, Thalia, Flickerwisp)
3x Wingmare
3x Serra Avenger
2x Revoker
2x Aven Mindcensor
1x Mirran Crusader

4x Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x SoFaI
1x Jitte

10x Plains
8x WastePorts
3x Karakas
1x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Mishra's Factory

Sideboard
3x RiP
3x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x Pithing Needle
1x Path to Exile
1x Absolute Law
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Council's Judgment
1x SoLaS


Played:
UR Delver (2-1)
Omni-Tell (0-2)
Shardless BUG (1-0-1)
Dredge (2-0)
Lands (1-0-1)
Omni-Tell (2-1)
RUG Delver (2-1)
Top 8: Omni-Tell from R2 (1-2)


Thinking of the following mods for tomorrow's main event:

-2 Aven Mindcensor
+2 Spirit of the Labyrinth

-1 Plains
+1 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard's a bit of a mess, but I never got to drop Cataclysm or any of the onesies. Any suggestions?

[jdc5011]

But would I run four [Vyrn Wingmare]? No. The benefits don't outweigh the loss, especially if you are digging into the Avenger count (which should be four).

Has this been a recent shift back to a faster, less taxing version of MW?

I run this currently:

Core (4x: SFM, Thalia, Mom, Flickerwisp)
3x Avenger
4x Revoker
1x Brimaz
2x Crusader

4x S2P
4x Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Jitte
1x SoFaI

4x Port
4x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern
3x Karakas
10x Plains

Side:
1x Canonist
1x RiP
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Pithing Needle
2x Cataclysm
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege (lots of BUG locally)
1x Manriki
1x Surgical
2x Council's Judgment
1x Null Rod
1x O-Ring
1x G-Cage


2 Crusader MD and 2 WLL on the SB is a local meta call as I see A LOT of BUG. I want to fit in the Wingmare and I've seen a lot of discussion on numbers. I'm thinking that I will try out the following next week:

+4 wingmare, -1 Avenger, -2 Revoker, -1 Crussader (I'm not sold on removing Brimaz from the 75 as he is a total house and seeing my op's face when he sticks off vial is priceless).

[MrGlantz]

Went 5-3 with the Brainstorm Show's List at eternal weekend before dropping to get food and drink since all my friends were out far earlier than I was.

List was:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Flickerwisp
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

3 Karakas
4 Wastland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Horizon Canopy
8 Plains

SB
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
3 Holy Light
2 Armageddon
2 Path to Exile
1 Disenchant

I was pleased with it. I just didn't like most of the matchups that I was forced to play all day, which was a lot of burn and elves.. Vryn Wingmare is strong I was happier with it than I have been with lots of three drops I've tried in the past.

I also was able to trade a bunch of enemy fetches I never use in order to snag 2 Imperial Recruiters so I'm likely going to try testing the red splash soon. I'm most excited and optimistic about that splash over any other because Elves! is a massive problem and I'm honestly sick of being destroyed by that deck.

[Stevestamopz]

R/W with a small green splash made top 32 at Champs! (http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/legacychamp15/top-32-decklists-2015-08-22)

4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Vryn Wingmare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Æther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
2 Plateau
2 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Savannah

Sideboard (15)
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Rest in Peace
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sudden Demise

3 Cavern's main seems a bit risky but the payoffs must be immense. I'll definitely be trying 2, probably cutting a fetch or the 3rd karakas.

[nevilshute]

Playing the MonoW-taxes deck what is your impression on the matchup vs Mentor-Miracles? I always felt comfortable playing against pre-mentor miracles but have not tried vs Mentor. In the abstract it seems worse for us, as we need to keep on plowshares etc. Does it massively tilt the matchup in their favor? Is it still roughly the same as before? Any specific tech to use to combat it?

[iatee]

So I finished 25th of 744, 8-2-1. Stevestamopz posted my list. I'm pretty convinced that the R/W version is miles ahead of the other versions in consistency and power at the moment. This was the first time I had a 3rd recruiter to play with and having a 3/2 split in that direction absolutely won me some games.

Here's my super long writeup:

Overall:

Lands 2-0, Jund Depths 0-2, Miracles 1-1-1, Reanimator 2-0, Miracles 2-0, Esper control, 2-0, 4c Delver 2-1, Miracles 2-1, Miracles 1-2, D+T 2-1, 4c Stoneblade 2-0

Round 1 Lands (2-0)

- G1 I start with Vial into Mother of Runes x 3. He gets a Tabernacle out, I absentmindedly forget the trigger because I also was thinking about whether I wanted Vial on 2 or 3 (w/ no 3 drops in hand but more relevant 3 drop draws). Worst mistake of the day and shoulda cost me the match but hey. Draw into Magus, cast Ethersworn Canonist as Punishing Fire bait and activate Vial at 3. He Punishing Fires Canonist in response and Magus comes in. If I had 2 active Mother of Runes into Magus I would have been essentially 100% to win at that point, instead he still had outs, but didn't find them. I had sandbagged my fetches/duals so that he wouldn't be expecting Magus - even gave up my 3rd MoR to Tabernacle instead of playing a 3rd land - and it worked. These kind of wins probably have an expiration date though.

SB in the Rest in Peaces, Ratchet Bomb, 3rd Magus, sb'd out some copies of STP and some mix of Canonist (not really relevant), Revoker (only hitting Mox isn't that great), Wingmare (slow).

- G2 See my Rest in Peace(s), Ratchet Bomb his Pithing Needle / Exploration, hook up SoFi to Magus and he scoops.

R2 Jund Depths (0-2)

- G1 was a grindfest, it took me a few turns to figure out what he was playing and I could have saved my t1 Wasteland-your-Bayou for his much-later Grove in retrospect and been more aggressive. Long grindy game, eventually lose to Punishing Fire combo and Liliana. Never drew a red creature.
SB in Rest in Peaces, Magus, Revoker, Ratchet Bomb, Crusader, SB out Wingmares, Canonist, forget what else.

- G2 Kept Stoneforge, RIP, wasteland, Port, Port, fetch, Plains. Which was land heavy, but contains two very good cards in the matchup so I kept. He then t1 Inquisitions me, takes a long time to decide which one to take (he had a graveyard dependent hand), took Stoneforge hoping I wouldn't draw another creature, which more or less happened. Died to a Young Pyromancer and tokens before I drew into anything relevant.

R3 Miracles (1-1-1)

G1 was the longest game I played all day, taking something like 45 minutes and was my favorite win of the day. I won past 4 Terminus 4+ Swords to Plowshares (I believe he snapped 2 back too). 3 recruiters in the deck was 100% the only reason I won that game, as I just kept vial on 3 and coming at him w/ a new one every turn, hooking it up w/ SoFi and making him answer it immediately. He had an active Jace, but literally ran out of answers and didn't find his one Entreat, his only other out.
He was playing Ruination main, which extended the game for him as I would have had more opportunity to Port him but I was ahead on board when it happened and had active Aether Vials, so it wasn't that punishing.

SB'd out Batterskull, Magus and something else for Revoker, Teeg, Ratchet Bomb

G2 I kept a Thalia, Teeg, some other stuff hand. He mulled to 6. I turn 2 Thalia, he turn 3 Karakases it. Thalia/Teeg hand basically wrecked by him having his Karakas in his opening hand. He plays Jace, Mentor, creates a billion tokens and kills me when we're on turns. He wouldn't have had time to win if I had drawn a STP or a Wasteland for the Karakas.
Asks me if I'll concede the match and the answer was obviously 'lol'. (He asked someone I knew the same thing later after drawing a miracles mirror).
Anyway, now I was doomed to the miracles bracket, which wasn't the worst as far as match-ups were concerned, but was the worst because I had 8 more rounds.

R4 Reanimator (2-0)

G1 Wasted his only land, drew Karakas anyway even if he had managed to get something out.
SB'd in the RIPs, out some slow stuff

G2 He reanimated Gris, I had Karakas in hand again (magic is game of skill), he drew 7 but didn't have much life to work with after that and I finished him with an attacking Mother of Runes.

R5 Miracles (2-0)

G1 Double Vial plus multiple Ports and a steady supply of creatures, wasn't close

G2 Had Teeg through Cavern (my only 'advisor'-cavern of the day) + Karakas, and other creatures, his hand was filled w/ miracles. He wouldn't have been able to miracle-cast them anyway because I was porting him off white and he didn't have a top or any fetches left.

R6 Esper control (2-0)

G1 Got a Jitte out and loaded it up with counters. Killed every Lingering Souls token he made. His only other win cons were his on board Jace+Lili and was running low on answers. One turn late in the game I cast Recruiter into Recruiter into Revoker for Lili. He cast DTT 3-4 times and was left with maybe 20 cards in his library when the game was over, but it never felt close thanks to the early Jitte.

SB took out STPs, Canonist, put in a RIP, Teegs, Revoker

G2 was much shorter, Vial, Recruiter+Flickerwisp value were impossible for him to keep up with.

R7 4C Delver (2-1)

G1 He had a slow opening with Deathrites as his only real pressure and lots of cantripping, I had equipment and he couldn't keep up.

SB brought in Magus, Ratchet Bomb but didn't bring in any RIPs as it seemed possible he was grixis w/ a trop for DRS.

G2 He found his Darkblast, which did a lot of work, and had a Goyf I couldn't answer. Brought in a few RIPs.

G3 Kept a risky but high-payoff one land hand w/ Wasteland, Vial, Mom, Revoker, Recruiter and I forgot what else, maybe STP and another creature. He didn't have a Force for the Vial (I figured he probably took most out) or way to destroy it, I drew a Karakas t2 anyway. Vialed Mom into Revoker for DRS into Recruiter for Magus and he scooped.

R8 Miracles (2-1)

G1 He was playing Mentors main and tapped out for one t3. I had enough mana to cast my Jitte in hand and needed to draw a 4th land t4 to equip it, attack with something and kill the Mentor. Didn't draw the land (or STP) and he won very quickly w/ double Top + Mentor
SB'd in the normal stuff plus brought in Sudden Demise too cause it seemed like his build was pretty mentor-heavy/

G2 The normal 'Miracles can't beat Thalia+Karakas' game

G3 Another Imperial Recruiter chain w/ Sword of Fire and Ice game.

R9 Miracles (1-2)

G1 Opponent mulled, kept one land, I had Wasteland

G2 I mulled and was short on land for a long time, he hit his Izzet Staticaster before I could do much

Sb'd out more x/1s than usual and brought in more Ethersworn Canonists

G3 I was fairly ahead and he was at 5 life with 3 lands, 2 cards and a top. Hit a Terminus iirc, DTT'd for his Izzet Staticaster and eventually played a second one too.

R10 Mono-W D+T (2-1)

G1 I start out with a Stoneforge for Jitte, he plays a t3 Brimaz, which was gonna be hard to answer even w/ Jitte, but I drew Karakas and his aggressive Brimaz/Thalia keep became very slow. I eventually get in with Flickerwisps.
SB in Relic-Warders, Revoker, Ratchet Bomb, Sudden Demise

G2 Equipment/Revoker battle, eventually he gets all 3 of his pieces on board before I draw anything relevant

G3 Fast game as we were short on time, I hit a lot of my SB cards, recruiting for Relic-Warder on his vial. STP'd his mom to tap it then Sudden Demised his board, and became inevitable w/ an active Jitte.

R11 4C Stoneblade (2-0)

R1 Vial game, Thalia into Wingmare, which actually wasn't that amazing because he was creature heavy, but had Revoker for his Stoneforge'd Jitte. I drew fairly well and had the right creatures vs him. He was fetching for basics aggressively to play around magus, which also hurt his mana.

Brought in another Magus, Revoker, Relic-Warders, took out Wingmares, Canonist, forgot what else.

R2 He Stoneforge'd for Jitte again, I double recruitered for Relic-Warder, Revoker both on Jitte. Had Karakas for his Clique, which was his only real pressure.


Overall

- 11 straight rounds of magic is seriously exhausting, esp if 4 of them are miracles grind-fests. I had a headache afterwards.

- 3 Recruiters is really, really good against miracles and just in general. This card is Demonic Tutor in this build, an instant speed Demonic Tutor if you have a vial. While 3/2 Recruiter/Magus means you're marginally less likely to get a out-of-nowhere Magus win g1, Magus also has its bad matchups like miracles and omni, whereas Recruiter is rarely bad in a situation where Magus would have been good. And at worst you get a Magus one turn later.
The difference between playing off the top vs cantrip decks vs playing w/ Demonic Tutor vs cantrip decks is huge. The D+T game shifts from 'you try to punish them from cantripping so much for their answers' to 'you just get your own answers, and you don't have to rely on getting lucky w/ a Ponder shuffle.' If (when) DTT were (is) banned, this build would be even more insane because DTT is the only thing that allows fair+control decks to keep up or get ahead the in the attrition game.

- Don't cut your maindeck Revokers

- Being in the x-x-1 bracket definitely affected my matchups, e.g. not playing a single omni or storm deck. My main and sb were built to deal with those decks but omni is still 50-50 at best, even w/ a million specifically targeted hate bears and a recruitable Canonist main. I also didn't get many easy greedy-manabase-Delver matches.

- The green splash just isn't worth it, at least not for Teeg and vs miracles, because good miracles players have all realized that Mentor is the best win-con. Teeg might have even cost me one game vs the miracles player w/ Karakas, as it was a dead card. Dealing with Mentor is still the real issue post-sb and it's the only way miracles beats you. Always keeping in 4 STP seems like it should be a rule.
I might try a Lightning Bolt or two in the sb, which have the upside of surprise hitting Jace or finishing them off and also are nice vs Delver/DRS decks. I thought 2 Teegs and having a good maindeck vs miracles meant I could drop Cataclysm from the sb, but I ended up missing them, and I'm definitely keeping at least one.

- As much as the Teeg splash isn't worth it, I think 3c is totally viable in this meta and am gonna keep experimenting with other colors. Playing 3 recruiters increases the incentive for playing weird non-white tutor targets.

- The downside of 3 Caverns has very very infrequently come up whereas the upside has been huge. I think any R/W player should never play fewer than 2.The big decks that can punish your greedy manabase (RUG Delver, Lands, Painter) are already good matchups and only Lands seems in vogue right now. Match one vs Lands the two players to the right of me were also on Lands. And the R/W D+T is miles ahead of the G/W and W versions in the Lands matchup.

- I won an insane number of games off having Karakas when I needed it, and it might be worth trying to put in a 3rd again. Karakas is an unfair magic card and I wish there were a way to tutor for it that was more reliable than Weathered Wayfarer. Tutoring for KotR seems super slow too.

- Wingmare is slow and an x/1 and I sided it out constantly. But I played against only one pure combo deck so I am probably biased. I might keep one as a Recruiter target when I specifically want to oppress a blue deck, but I definitely don't want two. The mono-white versions are playing a different game than the R/W versions and 2/3/4 might even be right, but you're really loading up in one direction when you do that, and you're gonna lose every game where Thalia/Wingmare aren't actually relevant. Also you insta-lose to Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemenetal etc, whereas I easily beat the Dread of Night I saw the next day. Izzet Staticaster is also getting to be a more popular answer.

- I think this deck is super well-placed vs the meta but still has rough match-ups. All forms of jund, early TNNs and Blighted Agent are still hard to deal with w/ this build. I don't think any amount of SB hate is gonna make Omni much better than a 50-50 matchup. Miracles is probably 55-45 in our direction but would be 75-25 w/ this naya list if only mentor didn't exist.

- This deck is also worse than the mono-w version vs burn or almost-burn u/r delver due to fewer beaters and maindeck Grey Ogre of the Moon. Also Price of Progress is a beating w/ this manabase. As far as the mirror goes, Magus of the Moon is once again a Grey Ogre or worse g1 and they are more aggressive but 3 Recruiters means you're playing 7 Stoneforge plus more copies of your anti-equipment hate, so I actually think the matchup is considerably in the R/W's favor in 3 games (so especially post sb) - but a blind hard control keep (Thalia, Moon etc.) against an aggressive mono-w build will probably lose g1.

[Finn]

Iatee, I think everyone would agree that three color DnT is fantastically powerful. It is a question of consistency versus that raw power. You had your two Karakas when you needed , apparently did not drop a lot of games to mana issues, and you did not end up with a Plow and no white due to overstocking Caverns. You simply can't expect those three things to happen on the same day very often.

[iatee]

So I have 12 white sources, which according to this math:
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

is a 90% chance by t3. I've played 100+ games with this mana build and can't recall a single game I've lost because I didn't have a white source for swords. T1 swords is rarely a do-or-die and often even wrong.

There have been one or two games over this period where I've had an uncastable sudden demise. It's true that this build opens itself up to mana-screw and is super greedy, but the white version opens itself up to losing to turn one top turn two counterbalance or your Thalia being dazed. Nothing is free, it's just a question of where you want to park your risk.

[iatee]

And I did admit that I got very lucky with Karakas over the day, but Karakas also causes its own mana-issues and with no Mangara or Brimaz the upside of a 3rd doesn't seem worth the downside of double Karakas-lotus-petal hands. Playing 3 has its own risks and I've lost games to it too as I'm sure everyone here has.

[Barook]

@iatee: Thanks for the report.

What changes would you make to your list? You didn't sound too happy about Teegs or more than one copy of Wingmare. What would you put into said slots?

As for Karakas tutors, technically, there's Expedition Map, but that seems not really like it's worth it.

[Finn]

@Karakas tutoring:

Crop Rotation on Flagstones of Trokair is about as good as it gets, fellas.


...is a 90% chance by t3. I've played 100+ games with this mana build and can't recall a single game I've lost because I didn't have a white source for swords. T1 swords is rarely a do-or-die and often even wrong.

There have been one or two games over this period where I've had an uncastable sudden demise. It's true that this build opens itself up to mana-screw and is super greedy, but the white version opens itself up to losing to turn one top turn two counterbalance or your Thalia being dazed. Nothing is free, it's just a question of where you want to park your risk.Yes. That is what I said. Just don't forget that the calculations do not take into account Rishadan Port and Wasteland. You faced DnT and Lands, so I am honestly astonished that this was not an issue for you. Keep up the fun.

[iamajellydonut]

@Karakas tutoring:

Crop Rotation on Flagstones of Trokair is about as good as it gets, fellas.

Holy fucking shit.

Every fiber of my being wants to build this right now.

[iatee]

@Karakas tutoring:

Crop Rotation on Flagstones of Trokair is about as good as it gets, fellas.

Yes. That is what I said. Just don't forget that the calculations do not take into account Rishadan Port and Wasteland. You faced DnT and Lands, so I am honestly astonished that this was not an issue for you. Keep up the fun.

I mean Port isn't relevant if we're talking about white sources for STP as I can STP in response. In a 1000 game set I'm sure mono-w D+T and Lands will port me to death once in a while when I kept a greedy hand with no vial, but they're still so far behind from not playing main deck Demonic Tutor and Blood Moon that it's worth giving up some % in that direction and to improve your match-ups against the counterspell decks, of which there are vastly more. Mana consistency is only one element of consistency in this game, this deck gives up some of that and but gains massively in other directions. Being a vial deck also helps here.

[iatee]

@iatee: Thanks for the report.

What changes would you make to your list? You didn't sound too happy about Teegs or more than one copy of Wingmare. What would you put into said slots?

As for Karakas tutors, technically, there's Expedition Map, but that seems not really like it's worth it.

KotR also works, and is Recruiter-tutorable and a beater...and a human for my pet card Cavern, but I'm guessing it's probably terrible.

I would probably just put in Crusader/Revoker for Wingmares, cut the Savannah for a plains, put two Cataclysm and a Pithing Needle and put some other tutorable creature in the last sb spot. Maybe another Mirran Crusader.