[Deck] Death and Taxes [Archive] - Page 23

redtwister

01-05-2016, 01:06 PM

Hi guys,
Do you know a side in / side out article for Death and Taxes ?
Do you keep thalia MD against Elves ? Thx

There is no exact sideboard guide, since our sideboard is very meta-dependent (I know every sideboard is, but our deck is an anti-meta deck generally and so its sideboard is exceptionally fluid.) However, I can offer this:

Absolute Law - Burn, Goblins, Grixis Delver Aggro, UR Delver, Lands,

Armageddon - Miracles, Lands, Twelve-Post, Enchantress

Cataclysm - Miracles, Lands, Merfolk, Twelve-Post, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Stax, Enchantress, Infect

Celestial Flare - Sneak and Show, anywhere you want +1 removal, any deck with TNN, Affinity, Merfolk, Infect,

Chalice of the Void - High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, Elves, Belcher(?), Affinity, Oops All Spells, Belcher, Infect, Grixis Delver Aggro,

Choke - (Wg) Almost anything with Isalnds, but especially Miracles, Merfolk, High Tide,

Circle of Protection: Red - UR Delver, Goblins, Burn, Grixis Delver Aggro, Lands,

Containment Priest - Manaless Dredge, Elves, Reanimator, Merfolk, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Goblins, Forgemaster Combo/MUD, Death and Taxes,

Council's Judgment - Sneak and Show, OmniTell, any deck with TNN, Death and Taxes, UWR Delver, UR Delver, Goblins, Burn, Reanimator, Shardless BUG, Painter Grindstone, Maverick, Merfolk, Jund, Twelve-Post, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Stax, Infect, Lands, BANT Stoneblade, Grixis Stoneblade, Esper deathblade,

Disenchant - Death and Taxes, Affinity, Infect, Stoneblade\Deathblade, MUD, Merfolk, Goblins, Omnitell, Sneak and Show,

Ensnaring Bridge - Elves, Affinity, Maverick, Reanimator, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Merfolk, Sneak and Show, Omnitell,

Ethersworn Canonist - Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Manaless Dredge, Elves, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, Goblins, Burn, Merfolk, Infect, Belcher, Oops All Spells, Lands,

Enlightened Tutor - Omni-Tell, Miracles, Manaless Dredge, Elves, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, Burn, Reanimator, Painter Grindstone,

Grafdigger's Cage - Elves, Reanimator, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift,

Gaddock Teeg - (Wg) Typically a main deck in Wg, but post-Dig, less so. Great against every deck with X spells in their casting cost and 4cmc+ non-creature spells, namely Miracles, Elves, Nic Fit, Nic Shift, Sneak and Show,

Gut Shot - Death and Taxes, Elves, Affinity, Jund(?), Infect

Holy Light - Elves, Affinity, Goblins

Leonin Relic-Warder - Death and Taxes, MUD, Affinity, Infect, Deathblade\Stoneblade Decks, Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Merfolk, Goblins,

Manriki-Gusari - Death and Taxes, Affinity, Deathblade\Stoneblade Decks,

Meekstone - Affinity, Maverick, Reanimator, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Merfolk, Sneak and Show, Omnitell,

Mindbreak Trap - High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, Oops All Spells, Belcher

Oblivion Ring - Sneak and Show, OmniTell, any deck with TNN, Death and Taxes, RUG Delver, UWR Dlever, UR Delver, Goblins, Burn, Reanimator, Affinity, Painter Grindstone, Twelve-Post, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Stax, Infect, BANT Stoneblade, Grixis Stoneblade,

Path to Exile - RUG Delver, BUG Delver, UWR Delver, Burn, UR Delver, Affinity, Jund, Merfolk, Infect,

Pithing Needle - Sneak and Show, Omni-Tell, Miracles, Death and Taxes, Manaless Dredge, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, UWR Dlever, Painter Grindstone, Twelve-Post, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Infect, Lands, BANT Stoneblade, Esper deathblade,

Qasali Pridemage - (Wg) Death and Taxes, Affinity, Infect, Stoneblade\Deathblade, MUD, Merfolk, Goblins, Omnitell, Sneak and Show,

Ratchet Bomb - RUG Delver, TES, BUG Delver, RUG Delver, UWR Dlever, Affinity, UR Delver, Miracles, Dredge, Infect, Belcher,

Relic of Progenitus - Reanimator, Dredge, all Delver decks, Jund, Lands

Rest in Peace - Omni-Tell, RUG Delver, Manaless Dredge, TES/ANT, BUG Delver, RUG Delver, UWR Delver, Reanimator, Shardless BUG, Painter Grindstone, Maverick, Jund, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Stax, Lands, Deathblade\Stoneblade,

Seal of Cleansing - Death and Taxes, Affinity, Infect, Stoneblade\Deathblade, MUD, Merfolk, Goblins, Omnitell, Sneak and Show,

Serenity - Affinity, Painter Grindstone, MUD/Forgemaster Combo

Spellskite - Infect, Death and Taxes, Stoneblade\Deathblade, Burn (kind of),

Spirit of the Labyrinth - Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Miracles, RUG Delver, Elves, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, BUG Delver, RUG Delver, UWR Delver, BANT Stoneblade, Grixis Stoneblade,

Sudden Demise - Imperial Taxes, against Elves, Goblins, Merfolk, Dredge, Infect

Sunlance - RUG Delver, BUG Delver, UWR Delver, Goblins, Burn, UR Delver, Affinity, Jund, Merfolk

Sword of War and Peace - Death and Taxes, Goblins, Burn, RUG Devler, UR Delver, Jund(?), Lands, Miracles

Warmth - UR Delver, Goblins, Burn

Wilt-Leaf Liege - BUG Delver, Shardless BUG, Jund, Death and Taxes, Maverick(?), Lands

Cards that kind of, but not quite, do the same things
Council's Judgment has largely (though not entirely) replaced Oblivion Ring, and no one uses Celestial Flare at the moment because TNN isn't running wild.

Mindbreak Trap and Chalice of the Void often fight the same decks, but Chalice strikes me as more flexible, even if Abrupt Decay has made it a worse cards.

Cataclysm and Armageddon is tough. Geddon clearly ends their mana, meaning no cantrips into rebuilding, but 'Clysm blows out tribal decks, planeswalkers, and unfortunately resolved Entreat the Angels, which will be back.

5th/6th targeted 1cmc removal aka Sunlance vs. Gut Shot vs. Path to Exile. Path is more viable in a world with Tarmogofy + Gurmag Angler. Giving away a land is less important that dealing with very difficult fatties, but only marginally so.

Meekstone vs. Ensnaring Bridge Meekstone drops sooner, but it could allow for a swing through and some decks have ways to untap their creatures, so I prefer Bridge, but both continue to have issues with being blown up by Abrupt Decay, the most evil, stupid cards BUG and Jund ever got, except for Deathrite Shaman and Liliana of the Veil and Thoughtseize and Hymn to Turach.

RoP vs. RiP, in which the question is whether or not you troll your opponent's graveyard for a few turns one cards at a time, slowing their progression into Delve spells and making DRS a little worse or just chuck everything all at once and make them use Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip. RoP loses a little something with Dig Through Time. banned.

COP: Red vs. Warmth vs. Absolute Law. Depends on the red menace in your meta and what it is doing. COP and AbLaw seem to be most favored right now. Neither is great versus Jund since it can blow it up, but that's the problem with Jund.

Sudden Demise vs. Ratchet Bomb might seem odd, but really we don't have the colors for Explosives and Bomb is the closest thing WW has to something like a sweeper, compared to Sudden Demise, which as more of a real sweeper. Sudden Demise is much better against creatures, especially as it doesn't hit out creatures, but Bomb has versatility in hitting non-land permanents and once dropped it can be used instant speed, even if it is automatically an Abrupt Decay target. the difference in power in certain matches is insane, however, like Elves.

Leonin Relic-Warder vs. Disenchant vs. Seal of Cleansing vs. Qasali Pridemage. Disenchant vs. Seal is about whether or not you need it to sit out there for the optimal moment and having your mana free or holding up the 1W until the right moment because you don't want it getting blown up before it is used. Relic-Warder vs. both is about needing something vialed in or dropped in simultaneously with something else. A beast (pun intended) against Omniscience. If you go Wg, you just go with Pridemage. I will say, versus Sneak and Show, these are supplements to Phyrexian Revoker, whereas they are mandatory against Omnitell.

In my build, which is WW, splitting Vryn Wingmare and Spirit of the Labyrinth 3/2, I do this:
Elves: -4 Thalia, -3 Vryn Wingmare, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 <Removal Spell or Chalice of the Void>, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Containment Priest, +1 Enlightened Tutor
Revoker Targets Elves: Heritage Druid, Wirewood Symbiote, Quirion Ranger, Deathrite Shaman

If you are Imperial, you bring in 3 Sudden Demise or 2 and a Goblin Sharpshooter.
If you are WG, bring in your Gaddock Teegs.

Non-creature spell taxers do not help against Elves as much as they make our removal more expensive and we want to be using removal.

Barook

01-05-2016, 02:32 PM

Did some goldfishing with Eldrazi Displacer. Mana seems indeed iffy. Although it's just mere goldfishing, it seems more favorable in many positions to just use Port/Wasteland.

However, if it's going to find a home, Imperial Taxes seems like the most likely spot. Cavern can provide extra colorless (I ran 2 during my goldfishing) and Imperial Recruiter is another juicy value target. You're also mainly operating with Vial @3 anyway.

More testing in that regard is greatly appreciated.

iatee

01-05-2016, 03:43 PM

Gonna bring up some places where I disagree (mostly to foster discussion, not to be a jerk or cause there's a right answer).

Containment Priest - Manaless Dredge, Elves, Reanimator, Merfolk, Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Goblins, Forgemaster Combo/MUD, Death and Taxes

- I actually don't love Containment Priest in the mirror. Some games it might just straight up win because they kept a hand around Vial, but you never know what your opening hand will look like, and you can have a Vial-dependent start and then draw into this as a dead/bad card, or they can draw into their Flickerwisps.

Plus it's just a vanilla 2/2 on the field in a matchup where combat is gonna matter. I do bring it in vs Fish, where the upside with Flickerwisp seems like enough to make it a net positive.

Ethersworn Canonist - Sneak and Show, OmniTell, Manaless Dredge, Elves, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, Goblins, Burn, Merfolk, Infect, Belcher, Oops All Spells, Lands

- I don't think Ethersworn does much vs Lands. They don't cast a lot of spells in general, and the only one they love to cast multiple times a turn also kills this.

Vs. Merfolk, I think occasionally this might affect them for a turn if you cast it t2 on the play...but they're also a Vial deck that can cast 3 spells total and still win, a vanilla 2/2 is pretty weak in combat, and I'm not sure it's 'better' than any of the core D+T cards vs them.

Enlightened Tutor - Omni-Tell, Miracles, Manaless Dredge, Elves, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, Burn, Reanimator, Painter Grindstone,

I like E-tutor in the mirror and against Maverick or sometimes Fish as just another way to ensure you hit your equipment or Pithing Needle if they're ahead. I think it's worth the card disadvantage.

Path to Exile - RUG Delver, BUG Delver, UWR Delver, Burn, UR Delver, Affinity, Jund, Merfolk, Infect,

Also like this in the mirror, even as card disadvantage I think it's worth it to have removal for the right creature and I think giving them a land in a game that often goes long is okay. It's only really annoying if they have T1 mom and this is your only removal spell.

It's also good vs Painter (another thing to hit Servant) and Reanimator (another emergency copy of StP, sometimes even better since they don't gain a million life.)

Pithing Needle - Sneak and Show, Omni-Tell, Miracles, Death and Taxes, Manaless Dredge, High Tide, Storm, TES/ANT, UWR Dlever, Painter Grindstone, Twelve-Post, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Infect, Lands, BANT Stoneblade, Esper deathblade,

Don't think it's right to play this vs Storm just to gamble that it can hit a Delta. I know some people do, but on average it seems smarter to just have something that can actually attack, or has a more guaranteed impact.

Rest in Peace - Omni-Tell, RUG Delver, Manaless Dredge, TES/ANT, BUG Delver, RUG Delver, UWR Delver, Reanimator, Shardless BUG, Painter Grindstone, Maverick, Jund, Nic Fit, Nic-Shift, Stax, Lands, Deathblade\Stoneblade,

Vs. Omni I didn't even like this in the DTT days since it was often too slow, but now it obviously isn't good anymore.

Don't see what it does against UWR Delver either.

Against Painter is only really hits the Welder, which isn't enough I think. I don't think it's ever worth it to shut off Snapcasters in a Stoneblade deck, but even vs. an Esper Deathblade deck with a lot of Lingering Souls, I think the risk of drawing a slow/dead card if they have a hand that doesn't use the graveyard is too high - it's not like they can't play their deck with RiP in play.

There are definitely some other decks where I feel like there's not a clear yes/no on RiP - anytime the deck has a graveyard interaction but not so much that their whole gameplan depends on it.

iatee

01-05-2016, 03:57 PM

And to answer the original question - I take out Thalias, a lot of our key spells will be non-creature and elves will only have one or two turns where Thalia is going to matter, if they have an average draw it won't take long for her to affect us far more than them. There will be instances where Thalia keeps them off Natural Order for a turn, but there will be even more instances where we can't StP + Wasteland, cast Jitte and equip, etc. and we're more pressured to do something in time than they are and that something often involves using a lot of mana. The same is true for Infect, which is why - based on previous discussion - I've started to take Thalia out there too, and I've definitely come to believe that it's a good idea.

I also take her out in the mirror and vs Maverick, since the taxing effect isn't guaranteed to be good or in your favor and enough of the time they just have Karakas and she's a completely dead card.

I also sometimes side out some copies in grindy matchups like Nic Fit where they play x/1 hate and you aren't likely to prison them out.

tescrin

01-05-2016, 04:12 PM

I have a feeling that he's not good enough. Three mana is a lot when you want to be Porting/Wasting.
Comboing with Containment Priest means turning off your Vial in advance, making it difficult to take advantage of without an unrealistic amount of time for you to cast, untap with Priest, cast the guy, untap with him, and finally target something, which can still be responded to by killing Priest.

Does he replace Crusader? I doubt it.
Does he replace Wisp? I really doubt it.
Does he replace Mangara? Well.. I mean.. people barely play him anyway and he's far better on his own; even though he's typically a 1-of.
Do you run even more 3-drops? I doubt it.

When you run it, are you replacing 2-drops with Containment Priest for a mediocre version of Mangara-Combo?
Does it replace Stoneforge? Nope.
Thalia? Nope.
Serra Avenger? Lel + Kek.
Revoker? I guess..?

I'm all ears, but I can't think of what you replace other than making another clunky combo or a less reliable deck.

T-101

01-05-2016, 05:16 PM

http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/avatars/thumbnails/81/679/200/283/635875020627095236.png

Only playtesting can show how harsh the 2C activation actually is, but the potential synergy with the deck seems amazing.

To sum it up from the Salvation thread:

Hmm... if MTGSal is excited about it, that usually means it's unplayable.

Curby

01-05-2016, 06:44 PM

Does he replace Crusader? I doubt it.
Does he replace Wisp? I really doubt it.
Does he replace Mangara? Well.. I mean.. people barely play him anyway and he's far better on his own; even though he's typically a 1-of.
...
Does it replace Stoneforge? Nope.
Thalia? Nope.
Serra Avenger? Lel + Kek.
Revoker? I guess..?

These are each the best at what they do. You didn't mention Mom but I can't imagine replacing those with Displacers either when we compare cards head-to-head.

However, Displacer is a generalist, not a specialist. It's more Flickerwisp than Stoneforge, more Port than Cavern. It thrives off interactions with many other cards, and after all isn't that kind of the strength of this deck?

Perhaps the question isn't whether Displacer outguns each other card in a vacuum, but rather if Displacer makes sense in the context of the deck's overall goals. In other words, flip the deckbuilding around. Start with 1-3 in the maindeck and see how you end up at 60. Is that resulting deck better than an existing traditional build?

Tormod

01-05-2016, 09:47 PM

Hmm... if MTGSal is excited about it, that usually means it's unplayable.

I laughed :tongue:

studderingdave

01-05-2016, 09:59 PM

Hmm... if MTGSal is excited about it, that usually means it's unplayable.

Joined to say I also laughed.

redtwister

01-06-2016, 04:13 PM

@iatee
I wouldn't post if I didn't want feedback, and your points are thoughtful and obviously not trolling. Unlike, say, jokes about MTGSal, which true or funny or not, are actual trolling.

Containment Priest and the mirror: I like it because if I don't start with Vial out, it can be quite effective. And you are as likely to Flickerwisp them as they are you, so that's a draw IMO. I would not consider it essential in the match, however, and if I had two Wilt-Leaf Liege in the board, I would play those instead, hands down.

Ethersworn Canonist and Lands: Fair enough.

Ethersworn Canonist and Merfolk: If you take Vial away from them, this finishes slowing them down, and going long and not letting them kill you is great. I never want them casting 2+ spells a turn, and they can do that in the mid to late game with greater impact than we can.

Enlightened Tutor: I will add it to Maverick, mirror and Merfolk. Good points!

Path to Exile: Yeah, I just missed those. I always bring i in against Reanimator, it is great against Painter, and value in the mirror.

Pithing Needle: I typically want as much control as possible vs. Storm and this is not a bad turn 1 play on Polluted Delta, even if it is only partially effective. We have some truly dead cards in that match, so I find myself wanting everything useless out. Everything. That usually means I have a last slot that the 1-of Pithing Needle fills better than whatever is left.

Rest in Peace on Omnitell: Fair enough. I believe I first wrote this when we were battling DTT.

Rest in Peace and Painter: Yeah, I guess the issue is what do I have against them. If I have room, I bring one in to stymie Welder, but not two.

Rest in Peace versus the Rest: UWR Delver was an accident, I had done a copy and paste of a line without noticing it was in there. :frown: I want it against any deck using Deathrite Shaman, hence Deathblade, and I do like it against Stoneblade using Lingering Souls because those are a real pain.

I agree, the best way to use RiP is when it does significant damage to their core game plan. Hitting outlier effects is often not productive, unless those outlier effects are especially disruptive to our gameplan. That is my other consideration for when to bring it in.

iatee

01-06-2016, 05:11 PM

So this colorless counterspell removal spell is incredible for us. One sideboard card that deals with Natural Order, Show and Tell, Pyro, Bob...and makes a dude when you need a body. Surely the best legacy card in the set.

Also rewards a greedy manabase - the 3 cavern r/w build I've been playing can reliably cast this.

Finn

01-06-2016, 08:43 PM

Wow. Warping Wail is pretty out there. This is an actual counterspell that we can cast. What a powerful too it is. It counters Elves, the deck. Virtually that entire deck is tiny pukes and sorceries. It looks like it might be maindeck material.

Stevestamopz

01-07-2016, 05:50 AM

Yup, Warping Wail looks to be a very nice addition. Pretty much counters every important card in most combo decks. Definitely going to have this as a 4 of in the Goblins sideboard. Could even try 1 or 2 in the main as you suggested Finn.

iatee

01-07-2016, 10:07 AM

Match-by-match look at the card:

Miracles: Counters Terminus, Entreat, Council's Judgment. Instant speed body useful for late games / vs Jace if you have equipment out.
How good is it: 6/10?
Would you want it main? Seems better post-board than main, as they are less likely to have Counterbalance, which this is pretty bad against.

Grixis Delver: DRS, Unflipped Delver, Young Pyromancer, Clique. Will hit a few one-ofs like Forked Bolt, but it's definitely a removal spell in this matchup.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes.

Shardless: DRS, Baleful, Hymn, TS, Ancestral Vision
How good is it: 6/10. Hits random stuff, lets you save your STP for Goyf and not DRS, but doesn't do much against a T1 TS, Goyf, Lili hand.
Would you want it main? Hard to say. It does stuff, but they're going to win the attrition battle.

D+T Mirror: Kills pretty much every regularly played creature but the beaters
How good is it: 9/10
Would you want it main? Yes. Thank god no other T1 deck can actually play this.

Burn: Swiftspear, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Rift Bolt. Not insane, but trades for a card.
How good is it: 5/10
Would you want it main? It doesn't work well with a Thalia gameplan against them, especially since we're trading for cards that cost less mana. Is very bad if Eidolon is out. And generally they cast their sorceries early. Still, one-for-one'ing Burn is a generally solid strategy.

Storm: Infernal Tutors, PiF, Dark Petition. Probe/Therapy to protect your bear.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes.

SnS: Show and Tell obviously. Cantrips.
How good is it: 4/10
Would you want it main? I don't really think so, they're better equipped to protect their Show and Tell in a counterspell war than they are to deal with creatures + Karakas, and sometimes they'll have Sneak anyway.

Omni: Similar targets.
How good is it: 6/10 - better since they're always on the SnT plan
Would you want it main? Like Miracles, I think it becomes better post-board because they'll likely have boarded out some counterspells.

BUG Delver: DRS, Bob, Unflipped Delver. Occasionally a Ponder or a SB card.
How good is it: 8/10
Would you want it main? Yes, always having something in your hand for Bob/DRS would be nice.

Elves: Obviously a superstar here, hits most of their creatures and 100% of their maindeck spells.
How good is it: 10/10
Would you want it main? Yes.

Lands: Gamble, Loam.
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No. Wont be fast enough for a lot of their Gambles, Loam is not a great counterspell target. Does nothing else.

Fish: Early Cursecatcher or Silvergill.
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No. Removal for their weakest creatures that is live for one turn, if even.

Rug Delver: Unflipped Delver, Forked Bolt, Rough/Tumble out of the board
How good is it: 2/10
Would you want it main? No, pretty terrible here too.

Infect: All their creatures, but it's turned off by any of their pump.
How good is it: Kinda hard to judge. Obviously not bad to have tons of removal but it can be played around and is bad late or vs Pendlehaven. Maybe 6/10.
Would you want it main? Probably, bad removal is still removal.

Painter: More removal for Painter's Servant is always good, though weirdly uncastable with a Blood Moon in play. (RW taxes needs to remember this.)
How good is it: 5/10
Would you want it main? Bad main. Probably best for mono-W post-board where they'll have few to no Moons.

redtwister

01-07-2016, 04:57 PM

I would also add that it counters the following from BUG and Jund:
Hymn to Tourach
Thoughtseize
Toxic Deluge
Massacre

Finn

01-08-2016, 11:55 AM

Hmm. I am concerned that we have insufficient uncolor mana. What do you fellows think of Kor Haven to prop up the supply?

Nihils

01-08-2016, 12:40 PM

Hmm. I am concerned that we have insufficient uncolor mana. What do you fellows think of Kor Haven to prop up the supply?

I'm not a huge fan, unless we increase the number of lands we play. I would think upping the number of Cavern of Souls would be the first step.

cursecatcher

01-08-2016, 12:52 PM

I was already thinking about adding 1 Sea Gate Wreckage, so perhaps that's a worthy colorless source.

Warping Wail's dissynergy with thailia concerns me though. Boarding it in against a matchup like Elves where you want to take out thalia seems doable though.

iatee

01-08-2016, 12:55 PM

I think I'm going to test a list like this post-release:

23 Land:
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

25 Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare

12 Spells:
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Warping Wail
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 1 Fireslinger

Not sure any Wingmare are appropriate as a Thalia/Wingmare game gets more awkward w/ more of these.

Even if you're not playing RW, I think Cavern is a much stronger card than Kor Haven, and you can shift the deck to have more Humans / shared creature types.

SwordsToTimeshares

01-08-2016, 09:52 PM

iatee

01-08-2016, 11:01 PM

Would R/W Taxes be the only version that *couldn't* play Warping Wail, on account of Magus of the Moon? That ain't no pesky non-synergy, Wail is literally uncastable if you have a Magus out. Speaking from the point of view of a DnT color-splasher, noncreature spells probably require 9 or 10 sources of that color to work. First, when I was just running Gaddock Teeg in G/W, 6-7 green sources and 4 Vials felt like enough, but once I moved to adding 2x Sylvan Library, I was basically forced to go to 6-7 fetches and 3-4 Savannahs. The same applies for Warping Wail, except 4 of those sources are sometimes just "throwaways" in Wasteland, but to make it work, I think you'd need our regular 8 colorless + 2 Caverns at a minimum. And they need to *stay* able to produce colorless.

Wail is literally uncastable if you have Magus out, but if you have Magus out against most of the field and it lives you've probably won, so the one dead card in your hand matters about as much as the 6 dead cards in their hand. It seems probably - not definitely, but probably - maindeckable for the same reasons Magus is, which is that the upside is quite high, even if it's not hard to envision various situations you don't want to see that card in your hand.

Overall Wail is stronger in matchups where I usually take the Maguses out because they can survive on basics and other mana - Miracles, Reanimator, Storm, Elves, Omni, D+T - or vs 3 color BUG style decks where Kill DRS + Play Magus is the easiest two card wincon, and this serves as one of those two cards.

GoblinTurkey

01-09-2016, 11:01 AM

http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/matterreshaper.jpg

So I have both Goblins and D&T built and I personally am wondering if this card would be good in D&T. I often find that the part that I miss when playing this deck is the lack of card advantage. This card is 3/2 beater that will eventually have to be dealt with or blocked, and when it dies it either draws a card or just gives a free uncounterable permanent.

There's also this
http://mythicspoiler.com/ogw/cards/seagatewreckage.jpg

Again I find that drawing cards is the only reason why this deck suffers. If we can manage to get some card advantage the consistency of this deck increases.

I may be wrong as I play Goblins more often, but I personally have found that card advantage is the only reason I don't enjoy playing Death and Taxes that often.

I plan on experimenting! Happy testing!

Poron

01-09-2016, 12:51 PM

it says dies. Both StP and Terminus get rid of it without killing it.. if it was "leave play" like Sundering Titan, well, I would try it 4x

Finn

01-09-2016, 04:38 PM

iatee

01-09-2016, 05:45 PM

For decks splashing, another option for C is in the Filter Lands.

I like Matter Reshaper as a card, and I think it probably has a place somewhere but maybe only Modern, not Legacy, where you can't win games off a pile of value creatures. And yeah, as Poron mentioned, the fact that STP is the most played removal spell in the format and the most played control decks almost never actually kills your creatures means that death triggers are generally weak in Legacy.

Sea Gate is a more interesting card I think, but it might just be relevant too infrequently and against not enough of the field.

Thought Knot Seer is also a very strong card and a possible sideboard option. It's a 4 drop but a beater with a Thoughtseize attached that can't be bolted, abrupt decayed and gets extra value from Flickerwisp. Combo decks get slower g2/g3 and generally aren't boarding into answers that can touch this guy.

iatee

01-10-2016, 06:09 PM

Tested 4 Warping Wail against post-board Elves in a fairly large set of games. It was solid and casting it was not an issue with 11 C sources. It was hard to not show my hand when I was leaving a Port + Land up - Elves isn't really a matchup where you can afford to bluff and when you're not doing something, especially with those it's pretty suspicious - but that card always is going to do something relevant, even if they want to play around it. Still, even though it was quite easy to cast, I'm less sure of it as a maindeck card.

GoblinTurkey

01-10-2016, 06:55 PM

Tested with Sea Gate Wreckage today against Shardless BUG. It was so good I'm running a second. It pushed through many upkeep triggers and it was very easy to use. I won several games due to the fact I was able to draw two extra cards off of it before it was Wasted by my opponent.

I'm using Warping Wail as a 3 of in the sideboard. I'll report back as I play it more.

Poron

01-10-2016, 08:04 PM

Wreckage is great also in multiples.

If you respond the first acrivation with a second activation you draw 2 cards (there is no check on resolution only on activation)

Finn

01-10-2016, 08:22 PM

Yeah, Poron. But two activations requires 8 mana. I am not sure I have ever had 8 mana with this deck.

snorlaxcom

01-10-2016, 08:28 PM

I am nervous about including too many cards that require that uncolor mana. If there was such a thing as a dual that could make both those colors it would be different, but I can't think of one of those.

You could try pain lands or filter lands, but this deck has lots of colorless mana sources as is.

AsmodeusDM

01-10-2016, 10:02 PM

Got wrecked again tonight by Punishing Jund....

My list:

4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

4 Moms
4 Mystics
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia
3 Recruiters
3 Revokers
2 Magus
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Fiendhunter

4 Swords
4 Vials
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskul
1 Jitte

s/b:
2 Sudden Demise
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
2 Wilt-Leaf Lieges (additions for the last few weeks to try to fight Jund)
1 Sunlance
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I don't want to abandon the deck for my local Sunday tourney... but man.. between pfire+grove and bolts and decays.. and even main deck Toxic Deluges...it's so FREAKING tough trying to win. Post-board they have golgari charms (or pyroclasms)....I just feel like no matter what I do I get torn apart... I've considered going up to 4 wilt-leaf lieges... but unless it gets put out via discard it's probably not getting cast :(

My only wins come from a magus with mom and I have them basically on all nonbasics...

Now we have TWO guys running the deck on a regular basis...

Ughhh..

Tylert

01-11-2016, 03:38 AM

Yeah, Poron. But two activations requires 8 mana. I am not sure I have ever had 8 mana with this deck.

I already had 8 mana with this deck once.

It was a fight vs MUD: 10/10, lifelink vigilance wurcoil engine vs 8/8, double strike lifelink vigilance pro-red pro-blue mirran crusader.... that was a long game :)

Got wrecked again tonight by Punishing Jund....

My list:

4 Wastelands
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
3 Plains
2 Plateau
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand

4 Moms
4 Mystics
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia
3 Recruiters
3 Revokers
2 Magus
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Fiendhunter

4 Swords
4 Vials
1 SoFaI
1 Batterskul
1 Jitte

s/b:
2 Sudden Demise
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
2 Wilt-Leaf Lieges (additions for the last few weeks to try to fight Jund)
1 Sunlance
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I don't want to abandon the deck for my local Sunday tourney... but man.. between pfire+grove and bolts and decays.. and even main deck Toxic Deluges...it's so FREAKING tough trying to win. Post-board they have golgari charms (or pyroclasms)....I just feel like no matter what I do I get torn apart... I've considered going up to 4 wilt-leaf lieges... but unless it gets put out via discard it's probably not getting cast :(

My only wins come from a magus with mom and I have them basically on all nonbasics...

Now we have TWO guys running the deck on a regular basis...

Ughhh..

Yes, D&T looses most of the time vs jund.
Rest in piece, magus, mirran crusader are good against it, but you should not warp too much your deck to play against this deck.

redtwister

01-11-2016, 09:49 AM

@AsmodeusDM
You just need to let combo players know that your local is a free roll for them with two Jund players. That is more likely to improve your percentage against Jund by a) giving it losses round 1 more often so you are not getting paired against it and b) might dissuade people from playing Jund.

Otherwise, there is no good anti-Jund plan for this deck that doesn't warp it beyond all hope. As Imperial Taxes has shown, we can even create a build against Elves that still gives us a very powerful build (back-breaking against BUG decks without basics, actually), but there is no good answer to Jund because even magus leaves then with Punishing Fire and Bolt and Massacre if they have a single basic Swamp, and they typically run 2.

@Sea Gate Wreckage
Even as a one-of, I don't like this card because unlike Wasteland and Rishadan Port, if it is out early, it isn't helping your mana denial gameplan; unlike Cavern it isn't getting your Thalia past Daze turn 2; unlike man lands, it isn't a threat turn 2 or turn 3; and it remains a value target for Wasteland and Stifle.

I just don't want to pay 4 mana for a cantrip. Has anyone noticed that making cantrips cost 3-4 mana is what makes Vryn Wingmare + Thalia so good?

iatee

01-11-2016, 09:52 AM

Yeah there's no secret answer to Jund, the deck is nothing but removal and threats that have to be immediately answered. Unlike Shardless or other midrange decks, there are no durdly blue cards to get in the way.

I think Wilt-Leaf is not meant for the R/W manabase and I have always found the card too narrow to be worth a SB slot. I would suggest putting a 3rd Magus in the SB and maybe another RiP instead. You could also replace Fiend Hunter with another Mirran Crusader. I have never loved Fiend Hunter, but it's especially bad against a deck with so much removal. 3rd Magus and 3rd RiP are cards that will get more use than Wilt Leaf - and they might not even be worse in the matchup.

3 RIP, 3 Magus, 2 Crusader, 4 Mom gives you a decent shot at having a draw that locks them out in some way or another, even if you're still realistically not favored. There's really very little you can do to consistently beat maindeck Toxic Deluges. You can toss in Absolute Law and even more Crusaders/Maguses, but they have maindeck answers to all of our answers, so there's never going to be a build that can just ensure that you're not open to something or another. Crusader dies to red spells, Absolute Law and RiP get decayed, Mom gets Deluged/Charmed, Wilt-Leaf can easily get stuck in your hand if they don't have a discard-heavy opening or see it with a T1 Thoughtseize.

c2232

01-11-2016, 02:17 PM

Try surgical extraction, I run two in my sideboard and it is amazing against loam/punishing fire. I don't think it makes the matchup positive but it gets competitive once you remove the fire.

AsmodeusDM

01-12-2016, 03:01 AM

Try surgical extraction, I run two in my sideboard and it is amazing against loam/punishing fire. I don't think it makes the matchup positive but it gets competitive once you remove the fire.

Yeah; or just play my ANT deck :D

But I've really really been enjoying playing D&T with the red splash.. I just feel so much more in control of the game and have the opponent constantly gnawing in fear at a vial activation or the tapping of 3+ mana :cool:

Finn

01-12-2016, 04:30 PM

Yeah; or just play my ANT deck :D

But I've really really been enjoying playing D&T with the red splash.. I just feel so much more in control of the game and have the opponent constantly gnawing in fear at a vial activation or the tapping of 3+ mana :cool:

I completely agree with switching to ANT if the field is as openly hostile to DnT as your description indicates. As with all decks, it can be hated out. As with all Legacy players, you have time to allow the metagame to drift back into neutrality when that happens.

Benke

01-15-2016, 09:44 AM

iatee

01-15-2016, 12:43 PM

Miracles:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2-4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Mirran Crusader, 0-2 Wryn Wingmare

--- I don't really love Seal of Cleansing / disenchant effects, even if it can destroy a tapped top (at -1 card)...I would rather just have another creature that can put real pressure on them. I think I am in the minority here and most people bring in disenchant effects though.

I also take out zero StP vs Miracles these days, because you are so likely to see a Mentor or another creature that wrecks you like Izzet Staticaster and *always* having an answer in your hand is great. Also by siding out your Avengers and Crusaders, you're actually leaving yourself w/ a deck that's nothing but x/1s so if they happen to be playing multiple Izzet Staticasters post-board, you're really at risk to just autolose to the card. I might try something like: +2 cataclysm, +1 judgement, +1 mangara, +1 needle +1 bomb -1 jitte, -2 wingmare, -3 flickerwisp.

12 Post:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Vryn Wingmare

--- I usually keep 2 StP for Prime Times. You can still beat a Titan after one trigger, but you can't beat it if they get an attack in. Containment Priest should come in since SnT is their primary gameplan vs us and they often shut off our Vials anyway. Taking out a few Thalias vs them is also generally fine, she feels relevant for about one or two turns and you don't want to draw into multiples.

Bug Delver:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Rest in Peace
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker

--- I don't think you want 0 Revokers vs any DRS deck, you probably don't need 4, but you definitely don't want 0.

Jund:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 3 Flickerwisp, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker

--- I definitely wouldn't take out any Revokers and I don't think this is a great Cataclysm matchup - no matter what creature they keep, it'll be something we're not thrilled to see. I read someone suggest taking out Vials vs Jund once, I have never done it myself (and I've been playing the red splash, which wants to get a surprise Magus vs them anyway) - but it seems like a reasonable idea. Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Merfolk:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare

--- Mangara has won some games for me vs Merfolk in the past, and is obviously great vs Lords, but he is slow. It's worth noting that there are fairly different builds of Fish, and he might be stronger vs the slower builds rather than pure tempo builds that play Daze.

OmniTell:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte

--- I don't love Cataclysm, I think I would probably just rather have a vanilla 2/1 attacking. If your Thalia/Wingmare plan is going well then it's pretty hard to cast. It clears an Omni if they managed to SnT it but not win, but only if you can cast it and they don't have a counterspell. Or serves as a bad Armageddon that also requires sacrificing some creatures. That seems too narrow overall.

Infect:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Mirran Crusader

--- This one is up for debate and is referenced in earlier pages, but I have found taking out Thalias and Moms to be a successful strategy, as Thalia hurts our plan a little more than it hurts theirs. If you're on the Thalia+Wingmare plan, then your Council's Judgement is uncastable, and your Ratchet Bomb comes online wayyy too late to hit the only card we care about, Agent. Revokers hit Hierarch and Crusader can get past any blocker + blocks G Elf well and is the best Jitte holder. Sofi is worth keeping as a replacement Jitte and it's certainly better than Batterskull in a matchup where your life doesn't matter at all. Mangara is also good here.

So maybe something like - 4 Thalia, -2 Mom, -1 Batterskull, +2 Canonist, +2 Bomb, +1 Judgement, +2 Mangara

Reanimator:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Containment Priest,
Out: 2 Mirran Crusader, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 1 Swords to Plowshares

--- I think you never want to take out any StP, sometimes they go all in on a non-legendary creature and a StP just wins the game on the spot. There's no reanimation target that Mangara touches that StP doesn't also. Crusader is also very strong in my experience, as it can attack past a lot of reanimation targets (Gris, Grave Titan), can't be abrupt decayed, is a fast clock. I might take out Revokers instead here.

Svyelunite

01-15-2016, 02:51 PM

Miracles:
Infect:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Mirran Crusader

--- This one is up for debate and is referenced in earlier pages, but I have found taking out Thalias and Moms to be a successful strategy, as Thalia hurts our plan a little more than it hurts theirs. If you're on the Thalia+Wingmare plan, then your Council's Judgement is uncastable, and your Ratchet Bomb comes online wayyy too late to hit the only card we care about, Agent. Revokers hit Hierarch and Crusader can get past any blocker + blocks G Elf well and is the best Jitte holder. Sofi is worth keeping as a replacement Jitte and it's certainly better than Batterskull in a matchup where your life doesn't matter at all. Mangara is also good here.

So maybe something like - 4 Thalia, -2 Mom, -1 Batterskull, +2 Canonist, +2 Bomb, +1 Judgement, +2 Mangara

I'm an infect player and I definitely agree Skull comes out before SoFI. Ratchet bomb is decent, Council's Judgement is slow but functional. I think you'd be better off taking out the Moms and 2 Serra Avengers over Thalia. The only games I lose to DnT are the ones where I'm tightly constrained on mana and therefore can't both cast my cantrips/pump spells and hold up counters. I also advise you to keep Revoker in. Stopping Hierarch alone is enough reason to keep them IMO. Canonist is great against us and so is Flickerwisp (with Vial of course). Mangara feels way too slow to me, so I'd keep it boarded out.

Just 2 cents from the guy on the other side ;)

NeckBird

01-15-2016, 02:55 PM

I have a difficult time sideboarding as well, but I'm getting better at it. Any advice would be appreciated. Here's the list I'm playing:

Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare
Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Lands (23)
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Council's Judgment
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Cataclysm

Miracles
-1 Flickerwisp, -2 Mirran Crusader, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Plains; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +2 Cataclysm

Storm
-1(-2) Stoneforge (On Draw), -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +0(+1) Pithing Needle (On Draw), +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Seal of Cleansing

Shardless BUG
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, -2 Flickerwisp, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Council's Judgment

Grixis Delver
-2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Mangara of Corondor, -1 Horizon Canopy; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Rest in Peace, +1 Brimaz

Death & Taxes
-4 Thalia, -1 Vryn Wingmare; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace

Burn
-3 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Horizon Canopy; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +1 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace

Infect
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, -3 Mother of Runes, -1 Batterskull; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Seal of Cleansing

Elves
-4 Thalia, -1 Vryn Wingmare, -1 Plains; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Path to Exile, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Council's Judgment

Lands
-2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +2 Cataclysm

Esper Stoneblade
-1 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Plains; +2 Rest in Peace, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace, +2 Cataclysm

Deathblade
-3 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Mother of Runes, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment

Aggro Loam
-2 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Flickerwisp, -2 Thalia, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment, +1 Sword of War and Peace

BUG Delver
-3 Phyrexian Revoker, -1 Flickerwisp; +1 Path to Exile, +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Council's Judgment

Sneak & Show
-2 Mirran Crusader, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Sword of War and Peace,

MUD
-4 Mother of Runes, -2 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +2 Council's Judgment, +2 Cataclysm

Pox
-1 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -4 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Seal of Cleansing, +1 Brimaz, +2 Council's Judgment

Goblins
-1 Flickerwisp, -1 Vryn Wingmare, -1 Mangara of Corondor; +1 Path to Exile, +1 Brimaz, +1 Sword of War and Peace

Reanimator
-2 Stoneforge Mystic, -2 Mirran Crusader, -1 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Swords to Plowshares; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Relic of Progenitus, +2 Rest in Peace, +2 Council's Judgment

Koke_MTG

01-15-2016, 08:25 PM

Hello,

I'm playing a mono-white list and have a hard time working out a sideboard. The list looks like this and I'd like suggestions!

CREATURES (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Vryn Wingmare
2 Mirran Crusader
INSTANTS (4)
4 Swords to Plowshares
ARTIFACTS (7)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
LANDS (23)
12 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas

SIDEBOARD (15)
2 Cataclysm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Council’s Judgment
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Containment Priest
1 Absolute Law
1 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb

Wrote a little SB plan as well, would like some comments about that as well :)

Control

Miracles:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2-4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Mirran Crusader, 0-2 Wryn Wingmare
Death and Taxes:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Mangara of Corondor
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare
12 Post:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Vryn Wingmare
Lands:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Absolute Law
Out: 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Aggro/Midrange

Bug Delver:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Rest in Peace
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
Rug Delver:
In: 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Absolute Law
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Flickerwisp
Shardless Bug:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Mangara of Corondor
Out: 2 Flickerwisp, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Swords to Plowshares
Jund:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 3 Flickerwisp, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Goblins:
In: 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Cataclysm
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Maverick:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Councils Judgement, 1 Seal of Cleansing
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker
Esper Blade:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing
Out: 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Swords to Plowshares
UWR Blade:
In: 2 Cataclysm, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Absolute Law
Out: 2 Vryn Wingmare, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Mirran Crusader, 1 Swords to Plowshares
Merfolk:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 2 Vryn Wingmare
Affinity:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb, 2 Mangara of Corondor,
Out: 4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, 1 Mother of Runes, 2 Vryn Wingmare

Combo

Burn:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Absolute Law, 1 Seal of Cleansing
Out: 4 Phyrexian Revoker
Sneak and Show:
In: 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Absolute Law, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Containment Priest
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Mirran Crusader
OmniTell:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 2 Cataclysm
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte
ANT:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Ratchet Bomb,
Out: 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Flickerwisp
Elves:
In: 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Containment Priest, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Thalia, 2 Vryn Wingmare, 1 Flickerwisp
Infect:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 1 Pithing Needle, 2 Ratchet Bomb
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Mirran Crusader
Imperial Painter:
In: 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Seal of Cleansing, 1 Absolute Law, 1 Pithing Needle
Out: 2 Mirran Crusader, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Batterskull, 1 Flickerwisp
Reanimator:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Council’s Judgement, 2 Mangara of Corondor, 1 Containment Priest,
Out: 2 Mirran Crusader, 2 Serra Avenger, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 1 Swords to Plowshares
Dredge:
In: 2 Rest in Peace, 2 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Containment Priest
Out: 2 Serra Avenger, 2 Flickerwisp, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Best regards,
Benke

I run a similar list with some changes specially in the sideboard. I posted it some pages ago in this thread. I disagree with you in some points of the sideboard plan. I am going to talk about what to side out basically because as I said I have a bit different board and I never have played with some cards like Cleasing or Law:

- Miracles: I side out the full set of StP because I do not want dead draws. I want more and more gas to rebuild the field after a Terminus. I have CJ and Needles/Revokers for Izzet Staticaster that, in addition, is a marginal singleton of their boards, and have Ratchet Bomb and CJ for Monastery Mentor. Even with him, you can race with your flyers. I run SoWaP in the sideboard for this issue. So for these reasons, I do not want to side out too many creatures as you propose. I side out a white land too (Flagstones instead of a Plains to avoid Blood Moon) because I do not want to eat more lands than necessary.

- D&T: I think you should run all Needles in your list to close the game in your favor. It is really important when your opponent draws a key card of the matchup to which you have no access at the moment (Mother, Vial, Jitte).

- Cloudpost: I side out all Thalias in the deck because they generate a ton of mana with relatively little. They are useless when you opponent have a couple of Cloudpost in play.

- Lands: I suggest you to play all Thalias here. My favourite plan is to get they just can play Loam on each of their turns and have to pass turn. That way they lose the tempo of the game loaming and while you are racing him. So you have to be aggresive playing Wastelands and do not waste your time with StP... Usually they are really useless because they have the capacity of put Marit Lage token on each turn when they want to win and have all stuff down, so you do not have enough StP to survive and if they only can put Marit Lage token once, you are recognizing that you lost because you cannot race 20 more lifes... And it is another matchup in which is a dead draw. Apart from Fire, Explorations are crucial for the gameplan I propose too.

- BUG Delver: I think you should keep in a couple of Phyrexian Revoker and play Needle instead of one of them because of sweepers like Charm or Deluge.

- RUG Delver: Against them I prefer side out SoFaI over a Flickerwisp because it is probable that without Stoneforge you cannot play it, and often is the least equipment you want to search here. In addition, I would not side in Law here. I do not consider it necessary.

- [/B]Shardless BUG[/B]: I would side in both Cataclysm and CJ of course. I would not side out Revoker and Wisps. Flickerwisp is fundamental to recycle your Batterskull and play over a Null Rod or avoid a spot removal or sweeper to a key creature as Crusader is. Against them and Jund I side out all Thalias in the deck because they are full of sweepers and you cannot tax them because they have a solid manabase, that added to their card advantage makes that they play a land per turn, and they have DRS to reaffirm their manabase. Thalias are only useful to chumpblock Goyfs that usually are really big in this kind of matchups. I want all Flickerwisp in against those midrange decks full of hate cards.

- [/B]Burn[/B]: I would side in Council's Judgment because of Vortex and Bridge.

- [/B]Omnitell[/B]: Do not play Cataclysms. They are really bad here. Do not listen Craig Wescoe in this aspect please :tongue:. I would play Council's Judgment because added to Canonist or Thalia could be useful to exile Omniscience when he passes the turn. And I would play Needle for fetchlands too (Delta or Strand). Same against Storm: only for fetchlands practically (Delta basically in this case and probably Tarn too).

- Elves: Thalias are pretty bad. I would play CJ for Needles, Null Rod or Progenitus.

- Infect: Crusader provides a lot of preassure so I would not side it out. Same for Avenger, that provides preassure and a block for Nexus at the same time. I would not side out SoFaI, take Skull instead.

- Reanimator: I would take out a couple of Stoneforge Mystic plus Jitte because I do not think you need any equipment here to win, so I would keep 2 Mystic with SoFaI and Skull. Keep beaters that do not consume mana as Mystic does. Play Needle for Deltas and Griselbrand ability.

When I side in Needles for fetchlands (specially combo matchups obviously) it is because I have more dead cards maindeck than the number of useful cards in my sideboard so I bet for this way to tax. If you have sufficient knowledge, you will be amazed with the things you will do with this. I think I left nothing. I think I would explain better this kind of things if I had a better english :frown:. If you have questions make them please! Same tips for NeckBird of course! I think we should make a common sideboard guide for the thread as others have.

Black_Diamond

01-20-2016, 02:40 PM

Hi @ll,

I am very happy with my RW Death Taxes deck but in the last few days i got the idea to play a third colour. I have no idea if it works and if it is an improvement. I will try tomorrow in our weekly play round. Here´s my brew:

Imperial Taxes (Human Tribal :smile:)

Maindeck:
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Karakas
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Marsh Flats
3 Flooded Strand
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
2 Imperial Recruiter
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Æther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Σ 60

Sideboard:
2 Sudden Demise
3 Rest in Peace
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Council´s Judgment
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Containment Priest
2 Cataclysm
Σ 15

The manabase is really greedy now :smile:
I don´t know if mana acceleration is the right way or may black would be better with Dark Confidant. I will give you feedback in the next days.

Any thoughts by the other DNT players?

Cheers.

Keep Taxing.

Ralf

01-20-2016, 03:28 PM

For those who are wondering whether or not "vial" should be kept in against Jund:

We have playtested the MU quite a sheer amount and definitely, Vial x3 can be sided out. You want as much as creature density as possible.

My two cents.

iatee

01-20-2016, 03:49 PM

Black_Diamond, I've tested various 3c versions before. I think the manabase can handle it, I just don't actually know if there's a payoff card. The only truly powerful non-WR human is Dark Confidant and it feels kinda redundant w/ Recruiters / makes us even softer to thinks like Burn.

Barook

01-21-2016, 01:29 PM

So, has anybody tested Eldrazi Displacer yet?

Imho, it's way too mana-intensive to be any good - and I tried it in a modified Hierarch build (with some Brushlands for getting more C) which has tons of mana. Most of the times, it's a vanilla 3/3 that lacks board impact - and that's NOT where we want to be.

I enjoyed Warping Wail out of the sideboard, though. But I don't think we have the mana for that without Painlands.

nevilshute

01-21-2016, 01:53 PM

Patrunkenphat7

01-21-2016, 11:20 PM

When you guys are testing Sea Gate Wreckage I am specifically curious how it compares to Horizon Canopy. It has a higher ceiling, lower floor, but overall plays a somewhat similar role in the deck (trying to stretch some reach out of the manabase).

Barook

01-22-2016, 04:35 AM

I'm still waiting to get my copies of OGW cards, but I will be experimenting with WW, ED and Sea Gate Wreckage.
I think Sea Gate Wreckage might suffer from similiar issues. You can't really support it with our 8 mana denial lands alone and you also have to respect the count of 15 white sources. The only option I see is going up in the land count if that is your cup of tea.

GoblinTurkey

01-22-2016, 07:11 AM

I think Sea Gate Wreckage might suffer from similiar issues. You can't really support it with our 8 mana denial lands alone and you also have to respect the count of 15 white sources. The only option I see is going up in the land count if that is your cup of tea.

My personal list is running:

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
7x Plains

I have been consistently able to use SGW in this deck and it usually wins me the game. Drawing one to two cards extra when you're in the grindy matches of Miracles or Shardless is significant. Also I may be wrong, but I always find that there is a point where "taxing" the opponents lands is no longer efficient and you rather just draw gas.

I'm still working on the balance of lands because I feel that I am currently colorless heavy (Caverns technically could be both colorless and a white source). So I'll report back as I play more.

Side note: Warping Wail is the real deal. Great in the mirror match, great against the cheaty decks, great against fair decks.

Barook

01-22-2016, 09:04 AM

My personal list is running:

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
2x Flagstones of Trokair
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
7x Plains

I have been consistently able to use SGW in this deck and it usually wins me the game. Drawing one to two cards extra when you're in the grindy matches of Miracles or Shardless is significant. Also I may be wrong, but I always find that there is a point where "taxing" the opponents lands is no longer efficient and you rather just draw gas.

I'm still working on the balance of lands because I feel that I am currently colorless heavy (Caverns technically could be both colorless and a white source). So I'll report back as I play more.

Side note: Warping Wail is the real deal. Great in the mirror match, great against the cheaty decks, great against fair decks.
Only 12 white sources + Cavern? That sounds incredibly risky. E.g. SFM activations become alot harder like that.

Agreed on Warping Wail, though.

Stevestamopz

01-23-2016, 06:41 AM

Side note: Warping Wail is the real deal. Great in the mirror match, great against the cheaty decks, great against fair decks.

Would you mind elaborating a bit?

skyout

01-23-2016, 05:04 PM

Would you mind elaborating a bit?

Warping Wail give you extra ability to remove problem creatures like a Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman, etc. Also answering annoying sorceries like Natural Order, Terminus, Infernal Tutor, etc seems pretty good. The 1/1 ability gives you the reach to end of turn make a 1/1 to stick your stranded jitte/sword to.

Stevestamopz

01-23-2016, 05:44 PM

Warping Wail give you extra ability to remove problem creatures like a Young Pyromancer, Deathrite Shaman, etc. Also answer annoying sorceries like Natural Order, Terminus, Infernal Tutor, etc seems pretty good. The 1/1 ability gives you the reach to end of turn make a 1/1 to stick your stranded jitte/sword to.

Sorry for the confusion, I know what the card does, and I nearly hit the roof when I saw the card when it was spoiled because it looks so good on the surface.

What I want to know is how it plays.

TheRabbler

01-24-2016, 03:28 AM

Hello everyone, aspiring D&T player here. I just recently finished building Lands and found myself with nearly the entire list for my favorite archetype of all time. My question to you all is: how important is the 3x Karakas? It's been present as a 3x in nearly every list I've seen and I'm aware of many of the tricks Karakas lets you pull, but how often are those tricks vital to the winning of a game and would going down to a 1-2x (only have one right now) drastically impact my ability to win games in a competitive environment?

Another less important question I have is what cards do you view as important to have ready for D&T regardless of whether you're playing them at any one event? My goal is to eventually have a collection of D&T staples so that I can edit my decklist in the hour before any event I want to play the deck in. Quantities of these cards would also be appreciated, though I suspect many of them will simply be playsets.

I appreciate any and all advice in these regards.

from Cairo

01-24-2016, 09:59 AM

It's been present as a 3x in nearly every list I've seen and I'm aware of many of the tricks Karakas lets you pull, but how often are those tricks vital to the winning of a game and would going down to a 1-2x (only have one right now) drastically impact my ability to win games in a competitive environment?

Karakas is pretty important against Show and Tell, Reanimator/Tin Fins and Miracles. 1-2 copies would effect the win rate against those archetypes. Against most other archetypes it isn't hugely impactful.

Bosque

01-24-2016, 10:42 AM

Karakas is pretty important against Show and Tell, Reanimator/Tin Fins and Miracles. 1-2 copies would effect the win rate against those archetypes. Against most other archetypes it isn't hugely impactful.

Mostly comes down to bouncing their creatures, and/or how many legends of your own you are running to protect from removal or play tricks with (Thalia, Brimaz, Mangara).

Bosque

01-24-2016, 11:10 AM

Another less important question I have is what cards do you view as important to have ready for D&T regardless of whether you're playing them at any one event? My goal is to eventually have a collection of D&T staples so that I can edit my decklist in the hour before any event I want to play the deck in. Quantities of these cards would also be appreciated, though I suspect many of them will simply be playsets.

Sounds like we could put together a list of cards that frequently go in the deck that one might want to have handy for meta adaption.

I could take a first stab here, it will certainly be incomplete. I won't list cards that are considered a core starting point for the deck (Karakas, Wasteland, Port, Thalia, Mother of Runes, Flickerwisp, Stoneforge Mystic, Phyrexian Revoker, Aether Vial, Swords to Plowshares, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, Umezawa's Jitte). I have also included cards for Green and Red splashes, as well as some of the more interesting builds (Arbiter/Ghost Quarter and Restoration Angel/Dust Bowl).

Creatures:
Mangara of Corondor
Serra Avenger
Vryn Wingmare
Mirran Crusader
Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Restoration Angel
Ethersworn Canonist
Containment Priest
Kor Firewalker
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Leonin Arbiter
Aven Mindcensor
Leonin Relic-Warder
Fiend Hunter
Imperial Recruiter
Magus of the Moon
Cunning Sparkmage
Goblin Sharpshooter
Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage

Land:
Cavern of Souls
Ghost Quarter
Dust Bowl
Fetches
Plateau
Savannah

Spells:
Cataclysm
Armageddon
Sunlance
Path to Exile
Dismember
Disenchant
Council's Judgement
Oblivion Ring
Seal of Cleansing
Enlightened Tutor
Warping Wail
Pithing Needle
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb
Powder Keg
Grafdigger's Cage
Manriki-Gusari
Rest in Peace
Sword of War and Peace
Sword of Light and Shadow
Circle of Protection Red
Absolute Law
Chrome Mox
Holy Light
Relic of Proge
Choke
Sudden Demise
Forked Bolt

iatee

01-24-2016, 11:18 AM

Karakas is also insurance vs Marit Lage in Lands and pretty relevant in the mirror, at least g1.

Farone

01-25-2016, 10:38 AM

I used to play the mono white version when I had only 1 Karakas. I am glad I got 3 now, its good protection for your Legendary Creatures and vs Reanimator, Lands etc also very nice.

Btw anyone tried to play Warmth in the sideboard vs Burn/goblins?

Svyelunite

01-25-2016, 11:07 AM

Btw anyone tried to play Warmth in the sideboard vs Burn/goblins?

Kor Firewalker is likely better, especially vs. Goblins.

nevilshute

01-25-2016, 11:32 AM

Where do people stand on Vryn Wingmare? I continue to see anywhere from 0 to 4 copies in successful lists. Anyone care to weigh in?

Curby

01-25-2016, 06:08 PM

Where do people stand on Vryn Wingmare? I continue to see anywhere from 0 to 4 copies in successful lists. Anyone care to weigh in?

It's my sig. I mean, like many cards it can be great, but it always comes at the expense of others. So ask yourself what you want to do with the deck*, the matchups you're most worried about, and how to best meet those goals. Part of the reason you see so much variance is that these are considered flex slots, so there's no single answer that's best for all players and all metas. Some other flex slot options:

Mirran Crusader
New colorless-mana-cost cards (Displacer, Wail)
Splash-color cards (Recruiter, Teeg, Bob)
Rounding out playsets of existing choices (Avenger, Flickerwisp, Revoker)
Player favorites (Spirit of the Labyrinth, Restoration Angel, Mangara)

So ... that's pretty much where people stand. :tongue:

*EDIT: What I mean is, do you want to control mana costs? Disrupt permanents already on the field? Be, be aggressive? Add defense against Golgari Charm? Fly over your own Moat?

nevilshute

01-25-2016, 11:11 PM

TokenSoldier

01-26-2016, 11:08 AM

No that makes sense. Thanks for the reply :smile: I personally kind of feel like it's a little bit of a win-more card that doesn't fundamentally do anything that the deck isn't already doing, and it's weaknesses weigh too much (x/1, 3cmc).

But I want to acknowledge and consider it as I see that lists running 4 are doing well.

I'm not sure if you're disregarding it by calling it a win-more card. If you are, I would reconsider. Wingmare's effect is very strong, and when its paired with another copy or Thalia you can often shut out entire decks - this is the #1 priority of D&T. Meta depending it makes sense to run as many as 4 copies. I've had very good results with the card, and there are also times when it needs to come out after game one. That can be said about many of the cards we use, it all comes down to the metagame. Right now I'm on board with 2-4. We'll have to see where things go now that Oath has introduced us to Warping Wail. The only thing I've not enjoyed about the card is that it introduces another x/1 white body, which is often bad especially in postboard games.

Curby

01-26-2016, 01:25 PM

Pasted from a Merfolk thread:

I now realize that D&T is not as bad as a matchup as I felt it was before, a lot to do with the 4x vryn wingmare. Before, those were combat-oriented dudes that were a lot more of a pain.

I imagine Wingmare also doesn't do much against Elves, a perennial bad matchup for us. shrug.

Koke_MTG

01-26-2016, 03:12 PM

Merfolks still being one of our best matchups while Elves remains one of the worst. Vryn Wingmare does not have much to say here. And if it were not so, I prefer to keep improving other popular matchups instead of these not tier 1 decks actually.

redtwister

01-26-2016, 03:35 PM

RE: Vryn Wingmare (and keeping in mind kirbysdl's excellent sig that we should all, always think with)

IMO, it is the best option we have if you want to emphasize the prison aspect of the deck. Sure, it is bad against Elves. So are lots of other core cards we have. The cards that are better against Elves are frequently mediocre in other matches, as I indicate below.

I am only considering WW. RW and GW are different builds with different considerations.

What is Vryn Wingmare competing with in that slot?
Mangara of Corondor
Aven Mindcensor
Spirit of the Labyrinth
Mirran Crusader
Phyrexian Revoker.

Let's go through each option:
Mangara of Corondor is very soft to every Delver deck, Jund, and Combo. It is best against opposing fair control (Lands, Miracles) and midrange (Stoneblade) decks, but Wingmare is very good against Miracles, fair against Lands, and much better against Delver and Combo. Wingmare is also a flying attacker/defender, which is always value.

Aven Mindcensor is best against combo, but a bit slow, and not terrible against everything with fetch lands, but IMO making draw spells, non-creature combo pieces, and removal cost extra mana is generally superior. Mindcensor is generally only better against Elves.

Spirit of the Labyrinth is a remarkably situational card. It is either great or terrible. I think the perpetual tax of Wingmare is just better against everything except Elves. (Anyone notice a trend here?)

Mirran Crusader is a very different card. If GBx is your nemesis, Crusader is great, but it is not a prison card except where it can block or in matches where we are the aggro deck. I think this is a toss up, but I think you can have both in the deck.

Phyrexian Revoker is an issue only because IMO, if you want 3-4 Wingmare with 1 Mirran Crusader, you have to cut 1 Revoker. They are typically great in different matches and they don't overlap that much. IMO, you want at least 3 of each.

What are the positive features of Vryn Wingmare?
- Flying. This is serious value on attack and defense. It trades with Insectile Aberration and with equipment races almost everything.
- Non-Creature tax. Have you had this out with Thalia and watched people try to cantrip? That is way, way better than SotL, especially since it also taxes their removal, not simply their draw. Excellent against combo if you get to turn 3.
- Not legendary. Legendary is awesome with Thalia, but this allows us to stack our tax effect. Against most decks, Thalia and 2 Wingmare on the field is GG, Elves, Merfolk, Goblins, and DnT being notable exceptions (notice the Tribal theme?) Then again, if you have Wingmare in after sideboarding against those decks, you're not the brightest bulb in the socket.
- Combined with Serra Avenger and Flickerwisp, we are talking 10-11 flyers. Holy cow that is sweet sweetness in Legacy!

The most obvious downside is
- Toughness: 2/1.

RE: Warmth
I like Absolute Law better than it, Kor,, or CoP: Red. Making our creatures pro-R has been the absolute best for me, both against Goblins and Burn and against Jund and Lands.

nevilshute

01-27-2016, 06:33 AM

Regarding Wingmare I'm just not sure. Like when DTT was still in the format I think it made sense to run some number of Thalia 5 through 6, 7 or 8 just to try and up percentages vs Omnitell. With that deck gone I just don't know. And the reason I'm asking is that it is quite interesting when a card is both a 4-of and a 0-of in lists performing in big tournaments. I mean that's pretty unique, no? Usually the flex slots mean 0-2 of something while the core creatures are usually there in 4s (some people like to shave a flickerwisp or revoker so there's an exception).

For me I can't help but feel like it's a bit too much variance as to when it will pay off having wingmare and when it won't. Bahra made the very good point that Dread of Night wrecks this deck and that is more true the more X/1 white dudes we carry. Also, a 3CMC taxing effect is quite slow. And I guess what I meant by win-more is that when you do curve thalia into wingmare then sure, that can be absolutely soul crushing but I think often the thalia alone is doing enough work there and we could maybe do better with a less fragile 3CMC creature here. I get that it also, in a way, acts as redundant Thalias, and heck, she's probably the most quintissential creature in the deck so that makes total sense. Only if Thalia were 3CMC then it would be a completely different story. It goes back to my point about it being slow. Like sure sometimes storm won't have killed us, un-interrupted, by the time we get our 3rd turn, but quite often they will so it's important for us to be able to slam a hatepiece on turn 2, not turn 3.

Meh I don't know. I tried for a bit, like I said, during the DTT-era and it was sometimes-great, sometimes-not.

iatee

01-27-2016, 11:26 AM

I have gone up to 3 Wingmares recently w/ the RW build, replacing a 4th Flickerwisp. Thalia -> Wingmare g1 on the play is unbeatable for a lot of the format. Combined w/ Magus of the Moon, there are a lot of T2 Thalia T3 'effectively win the game' - T4 if this is all off Vial.

While you're weak to Dread of Night etc., the only great taxing creature that isn't is Ethersworn Canonist. This deck is called Death and Taxes not Death and Creatures-that-beat-Dread-of-Night. So I think using some of your SB space to make yourself less weak to -1/-1 effects post-board seems better than showing up with a weaker g1 deck.

Nina

01-27-2016, 06:36 PM

So I have been playing this nonsense...

3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic

4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 AEther Vial
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

7 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 Rugged Prairie

SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Mirran Crusader
SB: 1 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 1 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Council's Judgment

edit: Ok I'll say something about this. So I am a mad fan of Eidolon of the Great Revel. It is kinda Taxing the Opponent by making them pay life (instead of mana).
I am fully aware that this doesn't "stack" in terms of control over the game the same way Thalia and Wingmare Stack, or Eidolon of the Great Revel + Burn spells in a burn deck. But I thought I'd try it anyway. The List I strated with ran three Serra Avenger and a Mirran Crusader instead, so I didn't take any Taxes out, I cut on the Death.
Anyway It works, kinda. Funky and shit, I almost never cast the Eidolons, they get vialed in mostly (like the Serra Avengers would)...

edit2: Ok, the 2 Rugged Prairie 1 Wasteland 4 Spells openers make some kind of deckbuilding flaw obvious... :really:

Black_Diamond

01-28-2016, 04:08 AM

Hi @ll,

I want to give you a short "report” of my testing the 3-colour type of DNT (RW + G splash for Noble Hierarch).

I think the mana acceleration is what you want to have in DNT, but there aren´t enough card slots. I tried 3 Noble Hierarch but to get the full benefit you need 4 imho. But you lose so many tricks if you go for the 4 Noble Hierarch it´s not worth it. So I switched back to the “original” RW build with 1-off Fiend Hunter.

May be one of you guys has different experiences with the 3-colour build.

Cu

Finn

01-29-2016, 01:26 PM

3-color D+T really has not had a reason to exist for a number of years. Back when the available creatures in white were crappy (up until about 2011), there was a strong incentive to go for two or even three colors. But there are so many good creatures that have been printed in the last few years that we can not even come close to fitting in all of the ones in white alone, much less the best ones from other colors also.

So, when I read Nina's words, I have to strongly advise her (him?) to stop using the Eidolon or at least use more lands capable of producing red mana. Honestly, the Eidolon is a card that punishes decks by inflicting extra damage for their actions. None of the other cards in D+T do that since it is essentially a control deck. The Eidolon is even somewhat antithetical to the entire strategy at work here. Considering its prohibitive color requirements, and the fact that you have only four lands capable of producing that color, I don't know how it was not stuck in your hand most games. I would be petrified to even tick my vial to three with that deck.

*************

On another note, can anyone report experiences with Warping Wail yet? Have you been able to cast it when you need it? Has it lived up to its potential? My own testing has stalled as I am only able to play casual games atm.

iatee

01-29-2016, 02:22 PM

I played it at my last legacy weekly. Vs Burn and Rug Delver it didn't come in, vs Storm it won me games (we played some extra games for fun) and I felt very secure w/ it in my hand.

I lost vs Miracles but I was mana screwed / didn't have strong starts. But it still did some very relevant things g2 (countering a Council's Judgment, killing a Snapcaster that he was Jace-bouncing).

Finn

01-30-2016, 10:14 AM

I think that what we want with Warping Wail is for it to pull its weight, or nearly pull its weight against stuff like Delver decks, Jund, Shardless, and random while delivering a powerful tool to beating the decks it seems to shine against (Miracles, ANT, Elves, Show and Tell). Either a person or all of us together will need to report findings, even if piecemeal, to figure out if that is happening.

Ancestral

01-30-2016, 02:59 PM

movingtonewao

01-31-2016, 12:37 AM

the unhinged foils or the terese nielsen judge foils are both good choices.

ChemicalBurns

01-31-2016, 02:02 AM

Hey everyone, long time player but only very occasional poster here.

Been trying this stock list, featuring a main deck Wail + two in the sideboard:

Creatures:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Serra Avenger
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Vryn Wingmare

Non-Creature Spells;
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Warping Wail

Lands:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mutavault
9 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Cataclysm
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
2 Warping Wail
1 Pithing Needle

Wail has been solid. There have only been a few scenarios where I've actually been sad to see it and it had little application in the matchup, but otherwise it's pulled its weight overall, especially out of the sideboard. The only problem I've found with it is when using its countermagic mode - we tend to either deploy threats or use Waste/Port often, so it looks pretty bizarre when you're not Wasting/Port/attacking with Vault. I feel if Wail catches on, people could play around it easily... But it definitely limits the opponent's options, which is what D&T is all about. Also annoying is when you have Thalia and Wail as well. This is fine vs combo where it essentially locks up the game as long as you have three mana up (finally having a diversity of combo answers, rather than just being permanent-based feels kind of amazing), but in normal scenarios vs. fair decks it can be quite awkward. In another note, I've never had problems casting the card so far, but thoughts on how the optimal monowhite manabase to support Wail should look like is much appreciated.

My conclusions so far is that it's quite good, but it has just enough friction with the generic main deck plan that it should be relegated to the sideboard, but definitely at least as a two-of. Sideboarding it in vs. the mirror and Elves as you cut crappy Thalias feels great.

Marungo

01-31-2016, 12:32 PM

Hi everyone, I am a legacy player in the Baltimore area and although this is my first post, I have been a follower of the DnT forum for the past few months. I've been playing legacy consistently for almost a year now and play exclusively Death and Taxes and was wondering if it would be cool if I posted a tournament report here of my 18th place (missing top 16 on breakers) finish at a local legacy 5k? I had a decent range of match-ups and the tournament had roughly 90+ players so a pretty decent sample size.

nevilshute

01-31-2016, 12:44 PM

You don't need to ask permission for that! I'd, for one, enjoy reading it :smile:

Ancestral

01-31-2016, 01:18 PM

Marungo

01-31-2016, 01:43 PM

Thanks everyone! I'll post the report later tonight

Adan

02-01-2016, 06:51 AM

warping wail has been decent for me in some cases, counter a terminus, kill some random dudes like shaman or delver, but still didnt test it enought, i m using it only in the sideboard.

slightly off topic here, i´m getting my D&T 100% foiled ! but i can´t decide wich basics foils i m going to run :/ any ideas ? which one do you guys run ?

I honestly think Warping Wail is not that good at all since there are not that many relevant sorceries around at the moment. Sure, Storm has got tutors and SneakShow has got Show and Tell, but these are already quite good matchups and in addition to that, these are matchups in which you'll want to execute your denial-plan consistently, so you are likely to use your Ports and Wastelands aggressively, which in turn means you won't have your colorless sources available. And it costs 3 Mana under Thalia which is just bad.
The only matchup in which I think really shines is Elves because Port, Wasteland and Thalia are all quite useless and it's a matchups in which you don't want any sorcery to resolve (Climpse, Zenith and Natural Order will out-value you very fast or simply end the game). At the same time it doubles as a removal for Wirewood Symbiote which is just the worst card for you.
Same is true for the mirror match where it handles Mother of Runes (which is one of the things the mirror will revolve around).

If you want your DnT foiled-out, you obviously gotta get all them judge foils (Wastelands, Ports, Karakas and Plains). Good luck with that! :P

Ancestral

02-01-2016, 07:19 AM

I honestly think Warping Wail is not that good at all since there are not that many relevant sorceries around at the moment. Sure, Storm has got tutors and SneakShow has got Show and Tell, but these are already quite good matchups and in addition to that, these are matchups in which you'll want to execute your denial-plan consistently, so you are likely to use your Ports and Wastelands aggressively, which in turn means you won't have your colorless sources available. And it costs 3 Mana under Thalia which is just bad.
The only matchup in which I think really shines is Elves because Port, Wasteland and Thalia are all quite useless and it's a matchups in which you don't want any sorcery to resolve (Climpse, Zenith and Natural Order will out-value you very fast or simply end the game). At the same time it doubles as a removal for Wirewood Symbiote which is just the worst card for you.
Same is true for the mirror match where it handles Mother of Runes (which is one of the things the mirror will revolve around).

If you want your DnT foiled-out, you obviously gotta get all them judge foils (Wastelands, Ports, Karakas and Plains). Good luck with that! :P

The reason why i m Playing Only in sideboard os bevause i want my main plan consistent as possible, but for testing purpouses i tend to side them um as much as i can to see in wich situations they are Good or not. So far has been decent from sideboard, Maybe 2 its correct, dont know yet.

And Yes i m going to start with Those :p i m currently selling some extra stuff so upgranding the japanese /korean ports and wastelands are already easyer, but its going to be fun for sure :)

Marungo

02-01-2016, 10:17 AM

(I had already written 90% of the report last night and when I awoke my computer had restarted in the middle of the night :( Worst news!)

Some things to note before reading:
- This was my first tournament with Vryn Wingmare in the deck. I didn’t ever think it was bad but I struggled taking out some of my flex spot creatures, but finally decided it was time.
- Armageddon was a last second decision. Like, morning of the tournament.
- Doing this mostly based off of memory so specifics are sometimes had to recall.

Here was my decklist:
Creatures:
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Vryn Wingmare
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
Spells:
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Batterskull
Lands:
9 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadin Port
2 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
1 Warping Wail
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council’s Judgment
1 Absolute Law
1 Cataclysm
1 Armageddon

Onto the actual report!

R1: vs. 12 Post (L) (0-2)
Wasn’t 100% sure what I was playing against. Baltimore is a pretty tight Legacy community, but I did not recognize my opponent. I had never played vs. 12 Post before but I felt like I knew what I was doing
G1: I mulligan to 6 and keep a solid hand with Thalia and some other okay creatures, but with port being my only disruption. When he opens on Cloudpost, I know I’m in trouble. The game goes long and I actually beat him down to 5 with Thalia, Stoneforge, and Batterskull before Emerakul comes down, annihilates, and gets picked up by Karakas
Sideboard:
In – 1 Armageddon, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Council’s Judgment
Out – 2 StP, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 1 Mother of Runes
G2: No luck for me. I mulligan to 5 and while I apply pressure and knock him down to 8 before he stabilizes, I still don’t have a wasteland. Eventually he has a turn involving Amulet of Vigor that allows him to play Titan and Ulamog in one turn all while leaving up Eye and mana to activate. My first draw after he does that? My first Wasteland of the match.
Record: (0-1)
(Side Note: I don’t feel like the match-up is impossible or awful, I was caught off guard and also got slightly unlucky)

R2: vs. R/w Painter (W) (2-0)
I don’t know if this is the consensus, but this match-up feels like we are heavily favored as all we have to do is disrupt the combo and then our creatures outclass their creatures. As you will see in game 1 you can make a lot of mistakes (not recommended) and still win.
G1: I keep a 7 and establish a board of Thalia, Wingmare, Mother, Revoker (Grindstone) and Crusader. I knock him all the way down to 8 before doing everything possible to allow him time to win. I make poor attacks, completely miss the interactions Welder can get going with a Painter and an artifact in the graveyard, and don’t swing for lethal when there is no reason not to. Thankfully Port is there to rescue me, keeping him low on lands and eventually I alpha and win. I end the match by apologizing to my opponent for winning when he played far superior
Sideboard:
In – 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Warping Wail
Out – 1 Mother of Runes, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice (I think)
G2: I feel like they cannot win if I disrupt the combo, hence my sideboard decisions. He opens with a turn 2 Magus which I slightly bait by opening on Port. I then play a plains and a Thalia, followed by a Revoker, and the game is elementary from there. I get down beaters, keep him off of mana after I kill the Magus in combat, and vial in a Revoker on the top on board when he is hellbent without either combo piece on the board.
Record: (1-1)

R3: vs. MUD (splash red) (W) (2-1)
Before the tournament I noticed a few people in the room were playing the new “Eldrazi” MUD deck with Smasher and Thought-Knot Seer. Thankfully my opponent, a local player, was on normal MUD since the other version feels like a much worse match-up.
G1: I keep a solid hand with Vial, Thalia, and a Stoneforge. I use 2 Wastes and a Port to keep his dangerous plays off of Sol Lands to a minimum, and eventually get a Batterskull on a Flickerwisp to swing for lethal.
Sideboard:
In – 1 Council’s Judgment, 1 Pithing Needle
Out – 2 Mother of Runes
G2: Not used to boarding vs. MUD AND keep a shaky hand, but it’s all irrelevant. He has Sol Lands a plenty, Wurmcoil (which I do plow), followed by Lodestone and Forgemaster while I am stuck on 2 lands.
G3: I have a great 7 with Thalia, 2 Revokers, a Vial, and 3 lands (1 Port, 1 Waste and a plains). I revoker his turn 1 monolith, get a Stoneforge out, topdeck a Jitte, and really just dictate the whole game. It ends with a Crusader holding a Jitte swinging for far more than lethal.
Record: (2-1)

R4: vs. Lands (W) (2-1)
Again, unsure about the consensus, but playing in Baltimore I feel pretty good about the Lands match-up, especially post board.
G1: He keeps a hand without Loam or Exploration initially and I punish him with Thalia, Avenger, Crusader, and another beater. Unfortunately I only get him to 1 before a loam, fire, Tabernacle, and a maze of Ith slow me down. I still have a 5 turn window where a Waste, Port, or Flickerwisp (I had 3 of each remaining in the deck), just win me the game by removing maze, but I miss entirely, and he eventually cobbled together enough lands to kill off all my guys and swing 3 times total (blocked once) with Marit Leige.
Sideboard:
In – 1 Armageddon, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Absolute Law, 2 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Rest in Peace
Out – 3 Stp, 1 Umezawa’s Jitte, 4 Vryn Wingmare
I really don’t like plow in the match-up. I understand I’m in the minority, but I just don’t think we are consistently wing games where we plow a Leige.
G2: Not a particularly close game. Again he has no Exploration, and my Vial allows turns putting out Revoker on Diamond and playing Stoneforge. He actually whiffs on a loam and misses a land drop and it’s pretty easy to beat him down.
G3: Really tough and grindy game. He has Exploration finally and Loam while I have a Vial, Mom, Stoneforge, and an Avenger. I flood the board, using a Flickerwisp on a Maze to push him to 8 with a second Wisp in hand to help swing for lethal when he dredges into Chasm and Tabernacle and lands both in the same turn. The game from here is draw (play a land) go for a while with him dredging loam and eventually ending a turn with the combo on board and the aforementioned lands with him at 2 thanks to Chasm and the other Flickerwisp helping to push through damage. I untap, sacrifice the Wisp, tapping 2 to keep a Germ and Avenger alive, tap my 4 remaining lands (all plains) and cast ARMAGEDDON. People around the match silently freak out at how big a blowout it is and he nods and concedes.
Record: (3-1)

R4: vs. 12 Post (L) (0-2)
Ugh… I ran into 2/3 players in the 91 player tournament playing classic 12 Post and also get so close in 2/4 games.
G1: He mulls to 5 while I keep a loose hand in the dark with 2 wastes, a thalia, plow, and vial, and 2 other lands. He plays Glimmerpost which makes me happy, then crushes my dreams with a turn 1 needle on wasteland. The worst part in my first 5 draw steps are legitimately 5 lands and I never actually do anything.
Sideboard:
See round 1
G2: I apply pressure with Avenger, Vial, a Crusader, and Mom and aggressively Wasteland to try and kill him ASAP. It almost works, but 3 wastelands later and him at 3, he tops into needle on my port, chasm in the same turn with 2 cloudposts remaining. He then goes to 1, plays another Cloudpost, then sacrifices the Chasm, Glimmerposts up to 5 and plays Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. I put him to 2 with Avenger and just hope for one more turn, but All is Dust crushes that dream.
Record: (3-2)

R6: vs. Miracles (W) (2-0)
I know this sounds silly, but this was my first tournament win against Miracles. I know the match is not impossible, but you gotta play really tight to win and I would always make a mistake or get a little unlucky.
G1: He mulligans to 6 and doesn’t have top. I play really tight and super conservative, having a Thalia and Sword forced, but landing another Thalia with a Mom and Karakas. I beat him to 6 before I get Terminus’d and Clique’d in response to my Vial=2 activation. I topdeck an Avenger off of that though, and although the game grinds on for a while after that, eventually my slow deployment of creatures overwhelms him.
Sideboard:
In - 1 Armageddon, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Pithing Needle, 1 Council’s Judgment
Out – 4 StP, 1 Jitte
G2: He has top, but I play tight and really start to see how I have improved over the past year with the deck as I see him getting overwhelmed by my Sword of Fire and Ice, timely Wasteland on Volcanic Island, early disruption with Thalia, Wingmare, Waste, and Mom, and my own emphasis on protecting Thalia; something I was very poor with for a long time. I end up winning with a vial’d in Flickerwisp (those are so good in the match-up) that beats him to 2, forcing him to spin a top and terminus, to which I follow up with a Revoker on top and lock him out.
Record: (4-2)

R7: vs. Miracles (W) (2-1)
Didn’t really wanna follow one grindy match with another but thems the breaks! He had a fully altered Miracles deck and was a cool guy.
G1: I get shut down early on with 2 forces on both vial and Thalia. I get some threats down, but he has plows and snapcasters, and while I get him to 3 I run out of threats and he gets Counter/Top down with a Jace before I give in for time’s sake. He also blew me out at 1 point with main deck Spell Snare
G2: Tough and grindy game. I get a Cavern and Thalia down and follow-up with Karakas, and although he does blow me out with Snare again, I beat him to 6 before he is forced to Terminus. Eventually he gets Counter/Top down and manages to use 2 Plows to catch Thalia and I feel like the game is slipping away. However one turn he coucil’s judgments and only has 3 mana up. I draw and cast ARMAGEDDON with 1 floating. He tops, brainstorms, and tops, but it resolves, then I follow up with Vial and he has to decide if he wants to spin top to counter it. He does, but he misses land drops for several turns while I hit twice and land a Thalia. He never plays another land and I pull it out.
G3: Not as grindy or interesting a game. Basically he misses a land drop turn 4 and I waste him and play Thalia off of Cavern. Eventually I use a Vial to get Wingmare out too and despite having top, he never finds a third land and dies to the aforementioned creatures and a Flickerwisp on the last turn to move a Snapcaster out of the way to swing for lethal.
Record: (5-2)

Although I finished 18th (kinda salty a few days later haha!) I was really proud of how I played and how far I have come playing DnT. I love the deck and next time I’m aiming for Top 8.

Finn

02-02-2016, 04:49 PM

Hey, good report. You are a good story teller.

I happen to think that the 12-Post Eldrazi matchup is miserable with standard tech sideboards (and just as miserable in game 1 no matter what, obv). When I was more active in my local scene, this deck was rampant. So was D+T though. I found that a couple Armageddon combined with a single Winter Orb, which could be tutored for, was about as strong a sideboard as I could ask for without devoting lots of space. The matchup never went into purely favorable territory, but I did steal a number of matches by tutoring for Winter Orb to buy time. Then I had the option to stall until I top decked one of my Armageddons. Also, Mangara is very good in this one.

Miracles was not around then. I think this tactic is sound Miracles tech, honestly. I hear that deck is popular. I think you have to think about cataclysm for the broader meta though.

tescrin

02-02-2016, 04:58 PM

IMO, GW or GWx D&T is just maverick. They evolved the deck to be mana-denialy and embraced Green.

If you want acceleration, I'd probably just go Chrome Mox. 2x Chrome Mox in place of Plains would give you acceleration, usually not see 2, and doesn't dilute the deck.

iatee

02-02-2016, 06:34 PM

The 12-Post matchup is a walk for RW taxes. Not unloseable but probably something like 75%-25%.

tescrin

02-02-2016, 07:50 PM

I honestly think Warping Wail is not that good at all since there are not that many relevant sorceries around at the moment. Sure, Storm has got tutors [...]but these are already quite good matchups and in addition to that, these are matchups in which you'll want to execute your denial-plan consistently,P

No it's not? Hoping they don't discard your hate bear, Kill you T1, or just go off through your hate is very much in their favor.

Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.

Do I really need to go on?

I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.

monovfox

02-04-2016, 12:16 AM

I haven't had the opportunity to test wail. This being said I am very hyped to try it. It's 1-2 of in the 75 by just looking at it. I like having a mix of permanent and spell-based answers to decks, and the card definitely .

This is my 75 with flex spots removed. (-1 mainboard, -3 sideboard). My main 60 has been pretty solid for the past 2 years (occasional upheavals to try weird shit like wingmare, which I think is pretty bad still, regardless of results that people have put up with it).

I am thinking something like a maindeck wail, sideboard wail, sideboard trading post and a sideboard ensnaring bridge. I have wanted to try trading post in this deck for a while just because of all of our artifacts. It's probably terrible. Don't be me. Play good cards.

4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 AEther Vial
8 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Karakas
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Spellskite
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Serra Avenger
SB: 1 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Council's Judgment
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing

nevilshute

02-04-2016, 06:21 AM

No it's not? Hoping they don't discard your hate bear, Kill you T1, or just go off through your hate is very much in their favor.

Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.

Do I really need to go on?

I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.

It honestly feels like you're sugar coating things a bit here. In my opinion we shouldn't be looking at using a 2-mana instant to stop things like ponder but instead should looking at having a thalia-effect in play and having them under lock and key to an extent where them tapping 2 mana to cast Ponder is going to the most they can get to do. If we are to be succesful in this we will likely need stuff like ports and to have used our wastelands aggressively, not hold up 3 mana to counter things. It just seems less effective. Also, yes, countering a miracle can be great, but at the same time I feel like we beat miracles primarily by having enough threats and not over-committing them. Having 1-2 of these is 1-2 fewer creatures (unless you can persuade me that we are cutting plows, vials or equipment for this in our main deck?) we will have to recover from a terminus.

Look, I'm not trying to devalue the card, I'm feverishly looking forward to testing it out but I will be doing so from the sideboard and I'm quietly skeptical about it. There are plenty of unanswered questions that feel like they get lost in the feverpitch of this card. How often will the C-requirement be a problem? Like how often will you bring it in against the mirror in hopes of getting frisky with Mom but then see your only C-source wasted? How often will you be sitting with it in hand vs Storm with a mana base of port, plains, plains and not tapping their land for turn after turn while they cantrip and eventually discard your wail - that you have been signposting - and kill you? I could go on.

I hope to be proved wrong, and yeah once I get the chance I will be testing it out for sure. But yeah... color me skeptical.

Svyelunite

02-04-2016, 06:33 AM

I hope to be proved wrong, and yeah once I get the chance I will be testing it out for sure. But yeah... color me skeptical.

Or colorLESS you skeptical amiright?!?!

OK I'll shut up now...

nevilshute

02-04-2016, 06:38 AM

Or colorLESS you skeptical amiright?!?!

OK I'll shut up now...

Hahaha, where's the 'like' button when you need it :smile:

dmark312

02-04-2016, 02:35 PM

Hey all, relatively new D&T player here, been lurking for a while and I figured I’d put up a tournament report of the Super IQ that I got 4th at this past weekend.

Here is the list I ran:
Creature
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
2 Vryn Wingmare
Spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
Land
8 Plains
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Warping Wail
1 Council's Judgment
2 Cataclysm
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege

There were 39 players, so 6 rounds of swiss:

R1 vs. Elves (Draw) (1-1-1)
I knew my opponent was on elves, having seen him top 8 an event last weekend. Was not excited about this matchup to start the tournament.
G1: I have a fine hand with a plow, Revoker, SFM and hope to be able to slow him down a little bit. He plays turn 1 GSZ for Dryad arbor, and on turn 2 he casts glimpse… uh-oh, but he only gets 2 draws after I plow the Birchlore Ranger with the Nettle Sentinel on the stack… phew. I fetch a Jitte then revoke the 2 Deathrites he plays. But the Wirewoods blank my Jitte and he draws a Cradle and GSZs for the Craterhoof.
G2: Really grindy game, He hardcasts a Ruric Thar on turn 4 or so, I take a few hits but stabilize with a Batterskull on Thalia, after Reclamation Sage killed my Jitte and Sword. I get there after a Cataclysm effectively wipes his board.
G3: We have about 2 minutes left in the round, and my hand is 2 land Canonist, Containment Priest, a Plow and some other cards that don’t matter. He Reclamation Sages the Canonist, and goes for Natural Order on T5 of turns, I flash in the Containment Priest and take the draw.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Pithing Needle (I think)
Out: Thalias, Vryn Wingmare, Mangara, and trimmed a Mom and a Vial

R2 vs. Omni-Tell L (0-2)
G1: He is on the play with mono islands and cantrips the first few turns. I have only a Mom, and Port him a few times but he draws lands and casts Show and Tell. he puts in Omniscience and I Flickerwisp it out. On my turn I attack for 4 and play a Flickerwisp on my Flickerwisp to keep his Omnisicience off the table for a turn. I attack him to 6, play a Mangara for an extra body, he Forces. I punt by not casting a vial for my 8th permanent, he attacks and I don’t have enough to crack back.
G2: I have a few hate bears but he gets to five lands or so and Shows an Emrakul. I have to attack into it and hope to draw something to get in for lethal after sacrificing my board. But I don’t get there.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, 1 Warping Wail, 1 Council’s Judgment,
Out: 1 Mom, 4 Plow, Mirran Crusader, Jitte

R3 vs. Esper Mentor W (2-1)
G1: Pretty back and forth, I eventually have a Plow for his Mentor and manage to whittle down the tokens and take the game with a few Sword hits.
G2: Gitaxian Probe into Cabal Therapy gets 2 Thalias, Deathrite and a Mentor comes down and he Probes and therapy something else. I die to Mentor and Monks shortly thereafter.
G3: We each plow a threat, and he casts Surgical Extraction on my Plows. The game goes really long, I attack him to 6 with a board of Mom, Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader, and Wilt-Leaf Liege. He has a Jace and tries to bounce my Crusader. I give it pro-blue, but he plows it and then Abrupt Decays my Flickerwisp. He is hellbent and attacks for 2 with his only blocker. I untap, ask: “How many cards?” “None” So I attack for lethal with my WLL and 2 power Mom.
SB: 1 Pithing Needle 1 Ratchet Bomb, 1 Rest In Peace, Council’s Judgment, 1 Cataclysm, 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
Out: Don’t remember exactly, I think I trimmed the Thalias, a Vial, and SFM,

R4 vs. Mono-red Sneak Attack W (2-0)
G1: I’m on the draw and he has turn 2 Seething Song, Lotus Petal, Spirit Guide, Sneak Attack, put in Emrakul and Inferno Titan. I could have plowed the Titan and gone to 2, and hope to rebuild before he hits another creature, but for some reason I had a brain fart and just scooped.
G2: He has turn one Chalice for one and Trinisphere, but Port, Waste and Hatebears get there. I preemptively Revoke the Sneak Attack. He drops a Pyromancy (2RR Enchantment: 3, Discard a card at random: Pyromancy deals damage to target creature or player equal to the cmc of the discarded card), which is a card I had never seen before, but I Flickerwisp to reset my Revoker and swing over the next couple turns.
G3: he has a chalice and a turn 3 or 4 Inferno Titan. I have a couple creatures out and attacks/Ancient Tombs have him down to 6 or so. I fetch up a Sword of Fire and Ice to get past the titan if he leaves it back. He attacks, kills a guy and plays a Spirit Guide to block, but the Pro-red gets my last creature through for the win.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Council’s Judgment, Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, Mirran Crusader

R5 vs. MUD W (2-0)
G1: He drops a turn 1 Chalice and shuts off my 2 Plows. At one point I think non-creature spells would have cost 4 more to cast, between Thalia, 2 Lodestones and a Vryn Wingmare. He fetches up a Blightsteel with one of his Forgemasters. I have a decent board, but the Colossus is going to grind me down unless I can kill the chalice. Just in time, I draw a Flickerwisp to clear the chalice and I plow the Colossus for 3 mana. Fliers finish the game.
G2: His turn 1 is two Grim Monoliths into Lodestone, I take a hit, plow it on turn 2 and then Revoke his Metalworker on turn 3. He plays a Coercive Portal and a Forgemaster that I Revoke. I am able to fly over with a Serra Avenger with a Sword of Fire and Ice before he drops anything else.
SB: In 2 Containment Priest, Pithing Needle, Council’s Judgment
Out: 4 Moms. (I don’t remember if I brought in Cataclysm for a Thalias, but it is possible I did)

R6 vs. 4-Color Loam W (2-1)
G1: We are both 3-1-1, so this match is a win and in for top 8. I’m on the play with turn 1 Mom, turn 2 Mom, Vial (Lucky to get these out as he had a T2 Chalice). 2 Moms protect my SOFI equipped Revoker and let me get hits through his Knights, while Port keeps his Maze of Ith down.
G2: I mull to 5 and keep Port, Mom, Plow, Avenger, Flickerwisp. I don’t draw a 2nd land until he wastes me. 2 Plains come of the top but I can’t hold off 3 5/5 Knights.
G3: I play turn 1 Vial, he plays 2 Mox Diamonds and Abrupt Decays it, and does not play a land for his turn. I untap and Revoke the Mox Diamonds, he laughs and only draws one land the rest of the game.
SB: In 1 Council’s Judgment, 1 Wilt-Leaf Liege, 2 Rest in Peace, 1 Containment Priest
Out: I think a Vial, a SFM, 2 Thalias, and the Vryn Wingmare

I end up in 8th place at 4-1-1 after a clean cut at 13 points for top 8.
Top 8 is as follows:
1st: Mono-Red Sneak Attack
2nd: BUG Delver
3rd: 12-Post
4th: Reanimator
5th: Maverick
6th: OmniShow
7th: Infect
8th: Me on D&T

Quarterfinals vs. Mono-Red Sneak Attack (different player than in the Swiss) W (2-1)
G1: He has turn 1 Chalice, shutting off the plow I have in hand, into turn 2 Inferno Titan. I lose quickly.
G2: He mulls and I have a vial into Revoker into Thalia with a port. But sol lands let him Pyroclasm. I think I get there with a SFM, SOFI, and a Flickerwisp before he is able to get a fatty down.
G3: he has a slow opener with 2 mountains and I have a Thalia on T2. He did not play his Petals on his first turns for some reason and has to pay 1 for two them on t3 and misses a land drop. I Revoke the Petals and Ports keep him from doing anything. He shows a hand with 2 Emrakuls, 2 Griselbrands and a Worldspine Wurm.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Council’s Judgment, Pithing Needle
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, Mirran Crusader

Semis vs. Reanimator L (1-2)
G1: I am glad I get a good matchup here, but being on the draw is still scary. I have Vial, Thalia, Revoker, and a Plow but no Karakas. I keep. He Dazes Thalia then Reanimates a Griselbrand. I don’t draw Karakas and he Forces my Plow, the demon kills me.
G2: I’m on the play with a Vial into Canonist into Thalia. He gets to 4 mana and casts Show and Tell. I have a Flickerwisp, Sword of Fire and Ice and a Karakas I was sandbagging in my hand. I tank for a bit and decide to put in the Sword, he puts in Empyrial Archangel. This will be tough. He hits me twice but then I draw a Mirran Crusader. Crusader plus a sword would be 8 damage, enough to kill the Archangel. I vial it in, untap and go to equip. He casts echoing truth on the crusader, so I vial a Flickerwisp on my crusader to not lose an extra turn to summoning sickness. Next turn I get enough through the angel to kill it and he scoops shortly.
G3: I mull to a hand with a Plow, Thalia, Revoker, Port and Plains, no sideboard hate, but not so bad that I want to mull further. He has turn 1 careful study binning a Griselbrand. I topdeck Karakas and play it (might have be a mistake) and pass with a plow/Karakas up. He plays a Pithing Needle on Karakas and reanimates Griselbrand. I Revoke the Griselbrand, but it is too late. He draws 14 and few attacks and an Elesh Norn later, I am dead.
SB: In 3 Canonist, 2 Containment Priest, Enlightened Tutor, 2 Rest In Peace, Warping Wail, Council’s Judgment
Out: 4 Mom, Jitte, Mangara, and some number of SFM, Vials, and Serra Avenger I believe.

I ended up in 4th, good for $100, which is my best finish with the deck, and I am pretty happy with list I ran.

I was testing the Sea Gate Wreckage, drew a total of 1 extra card all day, wished it was a white source a few times, and had the game end before I was empty-handed a few times as well. Going forward, I think I will try out an Eldrazi Displacer as well, Flickerwisp and Revoker were the MVPs all day and being able to reset them seems great.

Colin

02-04-2016, 04:25 PM

^Were you playing at Level up? for this IQ? I thought I was the only D&T player there.

Adan

02-04-2016, 05:05 PM

No it's not? Hoping they don't discard your hate bear, Kill you T1, or just go off through your hate is very much in their favor.

It is. Thalia is good, Phyrexian Revoker on LED is good, Spirit of the Labyrinth is good, Vryn Wingmare is nice if you play it, the denial plan is good since you can also attack their basiclands of which they play 2 or 3 at maximum while all other lands cna be wasted. Furthermore you have decent SB material (Rest in Peace is strong as it hoses PiF and Cabal Ritual, which in return also makes Thalia more effective) and obviously Ethersworn Canonist is very good and can also be tutored for.

How the matchup usually goes can be seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xticirLepB4

There is a reason why the experiences Stormplayer don't ever leave the house without either Massacre or Dread of Night in the board.

Additionally, helping with Elves, and stopping every kind of Miracle, while being an always relevant card is good. It stops Ancestral Visions, the ever present ponder, is an instant-speed dude to equip that dodges Mom, kills Liliana if she dropped and ate someone (or puts a dude out for her to eat.) It stops Reanimate and Exhume; stops Green Sun's Zenith and Painful Truths. Stops Forked Bolt.

Do I really need to go on?

Ancestral Visions is okay, but if you really board Warping Wail to counter Ponder, it's just not worth to listen to you any further. Not to mention that Spirit of the Labyrinth already stops these cards. Exiling Mother of Runes is good, but the Liliana argument is flawed, because any creature you drop via Aether Vial will kill Liliana when the opponent has no blocker. But if they have blockers, Warping Wail won't kill Liliana anyway, it can hose the sacrifice effect at best.

Against Reanimate it is actually quite shitty, Reanimator is extremely fast and leaving Warping Wail up to counter the 2nd Turn Reanimation spell and be cold to Daze is definitely not what you want to do.

I can understand arguing that it costs too much for D&T to function properly due to your lands being used to kill others' mana, but the idea that the card doesn't have a useful target in *literally every deck* is not correct.

So what? I mean, from this statement, playing this card effectively means abandoning the main lines of play and the very basic concept of the deck, so why are we still talking about it? The card is shit in DnT. The only thing where I'd want this is Elves because it literally does EVERYTHING in this matchup. But I would never want this against anything else.

iatee

02-04-2016, 06:55 PM

Massacre and Dread of Night are exactly why this card is good against Storm. You play your hate bears, they play towards their board wipe. This is the solid backup for the longer games.

nevilshute

02-05-2016, 02:14 AM

Massacre and Dread of Night are exactly why this card is good against Storm. You play your hate bears, they play towards their board wipe. This is the solid backup for the longer games.

No one (or at least not me) is writing this card off at this point. We're just trying to temper expectations and not just suck each other's dicks, bending every usage (like using how it counters ponder as an argument) the card has to be fantastic and not really looking at the opportunity cost of running the card (ie what comes out?).

dmark312

02-05-2016, 09:13 AM

^Were you playing at Level up? for this IQ? I thought I was the only D&T player there.

No, It was at Phantasy Hobbies

iatee

02-05-2016, 10:11 AM

No one (or at least not me) is writing this card off at this point. We're just trying to temper expectations and not just suck each other's dicks, bending every usage (like using how it counters ponder as an argument) the card has to be fantastic and not really looking at the opportunity cost of running the card (ie what comes out?).

Sure, I don't think countering a 1 mana blue spell with a 2 mana spell is how D+T wins, but claiming that this is bad against storm because we play Thalia is also ridiculous. I don't think you bring this in against every deck with at least one target. But I think it's good-to-great against a sufficient number of decks - including our very worst matchup.

As a SB card (I'm not arguing that anyone should run it main) - it provides functionality similar to Ratchet Bomb. It isn't an autowin very often but answers a lot of random hard to deal with things across a variety of decks. Mother of Runes, Show and Tell, Natural Order.

Finn

02-05-2016, 11:36 AM

...the card has to be fantastic and not really looking at the opportunity cost of running the card...OK, I logged on to say this because I think the misunderstanding of this concept has gone on long enough. Thanks for mouthing the words. Now that we are somewhat familiar with the scope of Warping Wail's application, none of us should be especially happy to see this card counter Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Chain Lightning, or largely inconsequential stuff like that. We should solely be interested in if the actual gameplay scenarios that matter tend to be of the type that allow this card to live up to its potential to give D+T real answers to stuff that we have hitherto just accepted as blowouts that we must weather. Or if it is just too narrow or too hard to cast or low impact or whatever.

nevilshute

02-05-2016, 12:47 PM

OK, I logged on to say this because I think the misunderstanding of this concept has gone on long enough. Thanks for mouthing the words. Now that we are somewhat familiar with the scope of Warping Wail's application, none of us should be especially happy to see this card counter Ponder, Gitaxian Probe, Chain Lightning, or largely inconsequential stuff like that. We should solely be interested in if the actual gameplay scenarios that matter tend to be of the type that allow this card to live up to its potential to give D+T real answers to stuff that we have hitherto just accepted as blowouts that we must weather. Or if it is just too narrow or too hard to cast or low impact or whatever.

Hey there. I'm not sure exactly how to enterpret this post. Are you saying that it is a mistake to be focusing on the cost of bringing out certain cards? In any case I'd just point to your quoting me: my sentence started on the paranthesis which isn't in your quote. Just to say that I wasn't stating that a card has to be "fantastic" be considered.

Finn

02-05-2016, 03:01 PM

Hey there. I'm not sure exactly how to enterpret this post. Are you saying that it is a mistake to be focusing on the cost of bringing out certain cards? In any case I'd just point to your quoting me: my sentence started on the paranthesis which isn't in your quote. Just to say that I wasn't stating that a card has to be "fantastic" be considered.
I did misunderstand your words then. I am actually concerned that Wail will not quite have the impact I am hoping it will...

(I wish people would be willing to maindeck it so that we can get more information. One or two in the side takes eons to analyze. I was thinking of maindecking two of them during this initial testing period. I figure that it does not want to be in a deck with Wingmares, so it would take those spots.)

...Doesn't it have to be stellar for any of us to want it over a disruptive creature? How important is it to have access to something like this? Does it make sense to lower the bar on power level for this spell because it is an actual hard counter? You get all "dunno" from me at this point. But every time I hear that it countered something small it leads me to believe that either the pilot felt he needed to get rid of it (for all kinds of unfortunate reasons) or he did not know quite what to do with it. Either way, that is not where we want to be with this card. Is it the better play to let Ponder resolve so that you can wait for Show and Tell, Infernal Tutor, or Terminus? I dunno!

If I am leaving Port mana open for this spell, I don't think I want to let Ponder resolve. But here is the important part. Is it best to just sit behind Warping Wail while I attack for a bit each turn? D+T wants to use its mana to heap on more bureaucracy. This would be something entirely new. It is not an organic fit.

iatee

02-05-2016, 05:49 PM

It's a worse fit g1 for a lot of reasons:
- As you mentioned, Wingmare (but also Thalia) make it harder to cast, it comes in vs matchups where they either come out (Elves) or might die to sb boardwipe effects (Storm)
- G2/G3 are longer and you're likely to have open mana for it late. G1 you are likely to either win quickly or lose quickly, and your easiest wins are gonna be in games where you could never cast Warping Wail.

Like I said this is like Ratchet Bomb - which can be fantastic but not maindeckable for similar reasons. This is a toolbox card and the fact that it 'cycles' to one-for-one a Ponder etc. is upside that Ratchet Bomb doesn't have, even if it doesn't feel powerful.

Adan

02-05-2016, 09:18 PM

iatee

02-05-2016, 09:40 PM

Dread of Night means our shields are usually down as the only good Hatebear that survives this is Ethersworn. Having one of these in hand means:
a. if they see it, they still have to get a discard spell before they can win, which gives us time to get damage in.
b. if they don't see it, they might attempt to go off and lose the game despite having the single best sideboard card against D+T in play

This is always going to be plan b vs storm - it's just nice to actually have a plan b.

iatee

02-05-2016, 09:43 PM

Incidentally, if this becomes played regularly, even D+T players who *don't* play it will have the option to bluff it once in a while.

monovfox

02-06-2016, 03:26 AM

I think warping wail's primary purpose will be similar to that of Red Elemental blast. Something to bring in against shardless (to counterr visions) to protect crusader and to bring in against storm and show and tell.

Fatal

02-06-2016, 07:01 AM

Terminus anyone ?

GoblinTurkey

02-06-2016, 09:26 AM

Terminus anyone ?

That...and Entreat, Ancestral Visions, Toxic Deluge, Maelstrom Pulse, Ponder, Preordain, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Cataclysm, Infernal Tutor, Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Merchant Scroll, Gamble, Exhume, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Dread Return, etc...

Also it exiles, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Swiftspear, Thalia, Goblin Lackey, Baleful Strix, Dryad Arbor, Heritage Druid, etc...

Also it never hurts to throw a sacrificable 1/1 in front of a Batterskull or Jitte to prevent lifelink or counters.

It's worth testing to say the least.

Adan

02-06-2016, 10:02 AM

That...and Entreat, Ancestral Visions, Toxic Deluge, Maelstrom Pulse, Ponder, Preordain, Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith, Cataclysm, Infernal Tutor, Show and Tell, Burning Wish, Merchant Scroll, Gamble, Exhume, Reanimate, Thoughtseize, Hymn to Tourach, Cabal Therapy, Rift Bolt, Chain Lightning, Lava Spike, Dread Return, etc...

Also it exiles, Mother of Runes, Deathrite Shaman, Vendilion Clique, Snapcaster Mage, Swiftspear, Thalia, Goblin Lackey, Baleful Strix, Dryad Arbor, Heritage Druid, etc...

Also it never hurts to throw a sacrificable 1/1 in front of a Batterskull or Jitte to prevent lifelink or counters.

It's worth testing to say the least.

It's easy to compile a list of cards that are worth countering, but you have to break it down to certain matchups. What I am saying is the density of threatening cards matter in order to make Warping Wail a good card. Then again you have to analyze what you actually are supposed to do against certain matchup. In most cases, you'll want to execute your denial-plan, i.e. getting Thalia online asap and using your Wastelands/Ports aggressively. In this line of play, Warping Wail has - in my opinion - no place here as neither contributes to the denial plan, nor does it speed up your clock (significantly, the 1/1 dork doesn't count, and even if, 2-3 Mana for a 1/1 "flash" dork is terrible).
Countering Ponder or Preordain is moronic. These cards already get really shitty when Thalia's online and can also be easily shut off with Spirit of the Labyrinth which also has a decent 3/1 body.
Terminus also gets mentioned frequently, but if you know your opponent plays it, adjust your lines of play accordingly.
And Cataclysm? Seriously? I can only see that happening in the mirrormatch, and boarding Cataclysm against the mirrormatch is something I'd consider as really stupid as the card essentially says "let's go to topdeckmode". The card has such a large variance to it, and once your opponent happens to play a Flagstones of Trokair (which appears and disappears randomly in and from lists respectively), you'll have this fml-moment and wishing Cataclysm was an actual good card that saves your ass.

The list of creatures is also quite stupid to be direct, cards like Clique, Snapcaster Mage and Baleful Strix create their value when they come into play, so it's usually irrelevant what happens with it afterwards, especially if creature battles against such creatues are easily won by having Mother active, any equipment or dude with evasion. Not to mention that you can still turn Thalia and Mirran Crusader into these dudes without hesitation. And the other relevant part of the list can also be shut down with Revoker.

As I said, it's the density of cards that matter. I won't board Warping Wail when my main plan is to screw my opponent. I won't board in Warping Wail if the only thing it hits are a few irrelevant dorks. I'll definitely want this against Elves as it has maximum value here (and the denial gameplan is actually shit here), but there is no other matchup I can think of that has a similar threat density.

It also does not contribute to the really bad matchups like Jund, Lands and that 4C Aggroloam (because Punishing Fire, yo).

The card is not as good as people are overhyping it here. But then again people don't seem to listen and are unable to think in matchups and gameplans, or just not seeing the basic concept of the deck. So far it's just "there is a list of sorceries this spell can counter and Death and Taxes has quite a few colorless manasources to cast it, ZOMG it's nuts and the real deal!!!111oneoneone"

iatee

02-06-2016, 10:35 AM

It's easy to compile a list of cards that are worth countering, but you have to break it down to certain matchups. What I am saying is the density of threatening cards matter in order to make Warping Wail a good card. Then again you have to analyze what you actually are supposed to do against certain matchup. In most cases, you'll want to execute your denial-plan, i.e. getting Thalia online asap and using your Wastelands/Ports aggressively. In this line of play, Warping Wail has - in my opinion - no place here as neither contributes to the denial plan, nor does it speed up your clock (significantly, the 1/1 dork doesn't count, and even if, 2-3 Mana for a 1/1 "flash" dork is terrible).
Countering Ponder or Preordain is moronic. These cards already get really shitty when Thalia's online and can also be easily shut off with Spirit of the Labyrinth which also has a decent 3/1 body.

Ratchet Bomb and Council's Judgement are also slow cards that don't contribute to mana denial or our clock - that have proven to be solid sideboard options. Why? Because they let us deal with a variety of hard to deal with threats and situations. This is similar.

Also every time you bring up Spirit of the Labyrinth you're undermining your argument since that card has proven to be - like Warping Wail - too match-up dependent to be a card you can reliably maindeck. Unlike WW it just also happens to be even worse post-sideboard. I have no doubt that a year from now there will be more Warping Wails in D+T 75s than Spirit of the Labyrinths - but that's not even much of an achievement.

redtwister

02-09-2016, 12:06 AM

nevilshute

02-09-2016, 12:52 AM

Anyone else seeing Edlrazi popping up? I'm expecting to see it in Philadelphia.

It's the Modern deck, but it uses 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Cavern of Souls, 4 City of Traitors plus Eldrazi lands, plus 2 Umezawa's Jitte, Phyrexian Revoker, and Endbringer to kill x/1's every turn or draw.

It seems soft to Lands, but it is very fast and Warping Wail is better in that deck that in ours. It brutalizes Miracles because it makes Counterbalance look really bad and it plays 4 Chalice of the Void, which it can play on 1 immediately, leaving FoW as the only out. Also very bad for Elves.

I'm not sure I want to warp my deck to accommodate it, but I think it will also be present in enough quantity to have to be prepared for.

I'm not suggesting it isn't beatable, but it's kind of MUD-like, but bigger and artifact hate is largely useless against it except for hitting their Chalice.

Mom is bad. Chalice on 1 is rough.

Ghostly Prison? Moat? Ensnaring Bridge?

Or back to Imperial Taxes with 3 Magus of the Moon? Not sure that is good enough.

What else are other people preparing for if you are going to the Open?

I am somewhat concerned about the Eldrazi menace. A friend of mine is 10-0 (20-2) at our LGS crushing mostly tier 1 decks in his path - bug delver, miracles, storm, D&T. Of course it's still early days but I think there's cause for concern. Other than what you mention I like exiling stuff via permanents to get around chalice and eschew reshaper's 'dies' clause. So stuff like mangara, fiend hunter and o-ring. I like bridge more than g-prison just for being a hard lock. Not dying to all is dust is nice too, they sometimes run that out of the board.

Would we bring in bridge against anything else? Elves? Does it just get rec. saged?

I'm worried about warping our deck to fight this one deck, at least until I know if my gut feeling is correct and it is in fact as strong as I fear.

From what I've seen so far it's just extremely fast out of the gate. Eye of Ugin for free turn 1 mimic(s) is a hell of a play when followed up by turn 2 and 3 heavy hitters like seer and smasher and our early game seems very susceptible to that onslaught. Thalia is mostly inconsequential and we really need equipment active to match them on the battlefield. Mana screwing them while plowing guys early could work while setting up but they also run chalice... Yeah, seems tough, hope I'm exaggerating

iatee

02-09-2016, 01:33 AM

Yeah I'll be in Philly, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's Eldrazi's coming out party in legacy. It's a real deck, and imo it's not going to be a favorable match-up for D+T overall. Taxing effects are dead, Mom is dead, they play huge creatures.

Ensnaring Bridge + E tutors isn't the worst idea since it has some utility against Sneak/Reanimator/Omni too. Moat is probably too slow but maybe not. Path to Exile is also good cause your StP's are gonna be taxed.

Imperial Taxes can go up to 4 Magus in the 75 without hurting the deck much. I'd still keep 3 Recruiters.

Probably a good tournament to be playing Painter - pretty much every conceivable sideboard option against Eldrazi is in the main. I have to imagine that ends up like D+T vs Elves, if not worse.

Marungo

02-09-2016, 09:54 AM

Yeah that eldrazi deck is legit. Running pretty well here in Baltimore and when I tested against it a few times the only main board games I won involved stoneforge for batterskull and getting that equipped on a flyer which needed the time StP bought. If they chalice on 1 it's so tough and feels next to impossible. Lotta local players are working on tuning the deck and will likely be in Philly

Adan

02-09-2016, 10:23 AM

Ratchet Bomb and Council's Judgement are also slow cards that don't contribute to mana denial or our clock - that have proven to be solid sideboard options. Why? Because they let us deal with a variety of hard to deal with threats and situations. This is similar.

Council's Judgment is an necessity because without it, you'll scoop some games to True-Name Nemesis. And other than that, it can double as a Disenchant effect because Null Rod is kind of evil against DnT. And the same goes for Ratchet Bomb and Holy Light, these are meta calls when you have to deal with Elves or decks that rely heavily on token strategies (decks with Young Pyromancer and Mentor). However, these cards are all more flexible than Warping Wail because Warping Wail - being in part a counter - is a reactive card. And this is something that does not fit into the deck's plan imo. It's certainly nice to have in the mirror and very good against Elves, but that's about it.

Also every time you bring up Spirit of the Labyrinth you're undermining your argument since that card has proven to be - like Warping Wail - too match-up dependent to be a card you can reliably maindeck. Unlike WW it just also happens to be even worse post-sideboard. I have no doubt that a year from now there will be more Warping Wails in D+T 75s than Spirit of the Labyrinths - but that's not even much of an achievement.

Spirit of the Labyrinth is huge, given that all blue DTBs have a Brainstorm-Ponder-backbone (Show and Tell, Storm, Reanimator) or Brainstorm-Jace(-Ancestral Visions; Miracles, Shardless BUG) and even against non-blue matchups it can randomly blank Griselbrand, Sylvan Library, Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionary shenanigans, cycling and so on.
When I was piloting Omnitell, Spirit is the worst card to play against. It's beside Thalia the absolute best drop you can make against High Tide. Dropping it in with Aether Vial in response to a Time Spiral is also GG, although that scenario is quite unlikely as you want to stick it asap in this MU, but it can happen when the opponent is firing off multiple Time Spirals amd your Vial on 2 is untapped.

There really is no matchup where he isn't completely useless (except for the mirror, duh). And he's got a decent body. But I can understand that Legacy as a format is beyond your scope and hence you don't see how good Spirit actually is.

Tylert

02-09-2016, 10:43 AM

Spirit of the Labyrinth is huge, given that all blue DTBs have a Brainstorm-Ponder-backbone (Show and Tell, Storm, Reanimator) or Brainstorm-Jace(-Ancestral Visions; Miracles, Shardless BUG) and even against non-blue matchups it can randomly blank Griselbrand, Sylvan Library, Glimpse of Nature, Elvish Visionary shenanigans, cycling and so on.
When I was piloting Omnitell, Spirit is the worst card to play against. It's beside Thalia the absolute best drop you can make against High Tide. Dropping it in with Aether Vial in response to a Time Spiral is also GG, although that scenario is quite unlikely as you want to stick it asap in this MU, but it can happen when the opponent is firing off multiple Time Spirals amd your Vial on 2 is untapped.

There really is no matchup where he isn't completely useless (except for the mirror, duh). And he's got a decent body. But I can understand that Legacy as a format is beyond your scope and hence you don't see how good Spirit actually is.

The Problem with Spirit of the labyrinth is that it is most of the time to late... Turn 2 your opponent has fired 1 cantrip on turn one and will brainstorm in response of SPirit of the labyrinth on turn 2... It's good, but not allways good and probably less good than the other cards that are played. It's been tried and not validated.

Adan

02-09-2016, 10:54 AM

The Problem with Spirit of the labyrinth is that it is most of the time to late... Turn 2 your opponent has fired 1 cantrip on turn one and will brainstorm in response of SPirit of the labyrinth on turn 2... It's good, but not allways good and probably less good than the other cards that are played. It's been tried and not validated.

You also pretty much ignored what I wrote, right? There are decks that rely heavily on digging through their library (Omnitell, SneakShow, Storm, High Tide), so Spirit is good, even if the opponent has played one or two cantrips during the first 2 Turns. Having Spirit usually blanks 1-2 cards that your opponent still has in hand or might topdeck.
Then there are matchups like Elves in which it shuts off all possible drawengines that you'll fold to instantly (Glimpse, Symbiote + Elvish Visionary).

There are games that I would have never won without it, so it's a stay for me. Oh, and back when I was playing Omnitell, this card was extremely painful to play against and it did cost me a lot of games in total over the period I was on Omnitell.

iatee

02-09-2016, 10:58 AM

High Tide? Did you happen to find the last surviving High Tide player on earth recently? Tell them I said hi.

Spirit of the Labyrinth is not a commonly played card in legacy D+T today. That's not an opinion you can disagree with, it's a fact - very few people play it. Maybe very few people play it because nobody understands legacy like you do, or maybe very few people play it because the card was test extensively and people got sick of playing Blade of the Sixth Pride. Here are a few decks that it's bad against: Burn, Jund, D+T, Maverick, Painter, Lands, Dredge, Merfolk, MUD, the new Eldrazi deck.

Legacy has a lot of blue cantrip decks - this is a good g1 card against them, but they are already good matchups. It also has non-blue cantrips decks - this is a terrible card against them, and they are often bad matchups. The only bad matchup that SotL helps with is Elves.

If your local meta is infested with High Tide - most likely related to some weird warping of the time space continuum - yes I highly recommend going overboard with SotL. Play 4. But there's a reason the card hasn't become a core part of the deck for people like me who have managed to escape your High Tide alternate universe and have to play against 2016 era legacy decks.

nevilshute

02-09-2016, 11:12 AM

You also pretty much ignored what I wrote, right? There are decks that rely heavily on digging through their library (Omnitell, SneakShow, Storm, High Tide), so Spirit is good, even if the opponent has played one or two cantrips during the first 2 Turns. Having Spirit usually blanks 1-2 cards that your opponent still has in hand or might topdeck.
Then there are matchups like Elves in which it shuts off all possible drawengines that you'll fold to instantly (Glimpse, Symbiote + Elvish Visionary).

There are games that I would have never won without it, so it's a stay for me. Oh, and back when I was playing Omnitell, this card was extremely painful to play against and it did cost me a lot of games in total over the period I was on Omnitell.

Of those four decks, Omni is dead, high tide is a joke, sneak and show is already an excellent matchup - and probably won't run 16 cantrips like omni does anyways - and storm can easily be done with their setup by the time Spirit comes down. It can be really nice vs elves (it can be really nice vs all the blue decks too) but won't solve the problem of them casting natural order. Sometimes they can do that without a glimppse or visionary chain first.

Look, Spirit has a high ceiling in terms of power level especially together with vial, but it has been disappointing for me most of the time I've played it. Most of the time it seemed to arrive after their second cantrip by which time it's too late to be effective in many games. And that's to say nothing of all the matchups where it's a vanilla 3/1 for 2 that dies to disenchant and reclamation sage.

Adan

02-09-2016, 11:34 AM

High Tide? Did you happen to find the last surviving High Tide player on earth recently? Tell them I said hi.

Legacy is a diverse format and people are always plying their pet decks, and there is this one guy in my area who has got 2 or 3 Candelabras and enjoys to play them, so he's always on High Tide. And the matchup is hard to win without Spirit, similar to Elves, so I'll take my chances.

Spirit of the Labyrinth is not a commonly played card in legacy D+T today. That's not an opinion you can disagree with, it's a fact - very few people play it.

Well, I randomly browsed through these lists http://www.tcdecks.net/archetype.php?format=Legacy&archetype=Death%20and%20Taxes&page=1 and quite a few of them play Spirit, most notably these ones:

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19140&iddeck=145493

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19305&iddeck=146788

http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=19140&iddeck=145492

Christian and I also split Top2 a couple of weeks ago in a small tournament, playing the identical 75, I played against BUG Delver, Miracles and BURG Delver, and Spirit was good against all of them (even more against BURG than against BUG because they also need their long-term cantrips to fix their mana once you shut off DRS, that deck just can't work without it). And yeah, it was very good against Miracles as well.

And well, these are all pro-players and certainly also have done some testing. And most likely concluded that Spirit is a solid card.

Maybe very few people play it because nobody understands legacy like you do, or maybe very few people play it because the card was test extensively and people got sick of playing Blade of the Sixth Pride. Here are a few decks that it's bad against: Burn, Jund, D+T, Maverick, Painter, Lands, Dredge, Merfolk, MUD, the new Eldrazi deck.

This list is meaningless as it contains matchups that are either bad or good in general, independant from whether you are running Spirit or not. You can't win the bad ones by cutting Spirit anyway and on the other way around, Spirit does not make the favorable ones worse.

Legacy has a lot of blue cantrip decks - this is a good g1 card against them, but they are already good matchups. It also has non-blue cantrips decks - this is a terrible card against them, and they are often bad matchups. The only bad matchup that SotL helps with is Elves.

Actually most of the blue matchups are grindy as hell, and allowing the opponent to do whatever they like (i.e. cast cantrips and sculpt their hands and find their random bomb such as Toxic Deluge to screw you over) can turn the match into their favor.

02-09-2016, 11:41 AM

Spirit seems to be as randomly good (won me a game versus Reanimator where I Vialed it in to shut down Griselbrand) as it is randomly bad (I've been 2-1'ed before off Wear//Tear hitting Spirit and Equipment before). My conclusion is that it's fine, but I wouldn't ever run more than 2 really (I usually just run 1).

iatee

02-09-2016, 11:57 AM

Spirit makes almost all of those match-ups worse because you're not playing a stronger card in its place. There is no 'independent of whether you are running Spirit or not'.

The Brad Nelson/Todd Anderson deck was played in a small 16 person event where they could expect 100% of the field to be T1 decks. That's exactly the meta you'd want to play the card in. The chances of them facing any of the decks I listed above was very small, outside of perhaps Lands.

It feels like you highly overvalue your personal experience staring at Candelabras and the extensive knowledge of the format you gained from casting Show and Tell into Omniscience. It is perfectly reasonable to play SotL if you expect to face 100% blue decks like you did in your last tournament. Most people don't have that luxury. Legacy has an extremely broad meta and you are almost certain to face multiple non-blue decks in a large tournament. Get back to us once you've tested against the new Eldrazi deck a few times.

redtwister

02-09-2016, 02:12 PM

I’m not overly worried about overdoing the sideboard for Eldrazi because we don’t have much in the side as it is.

I do not think this is as bad as Elves. It is still (kind of) a fair deck with little deck manipulation, and susceptible to poor draws because they are, in the end, an overpowered Timmy deck. Yes, it can have a nut starting hand, but it can’t combo off into a win. Sometimes they don’t have a turn 1 or turn 2 creature, which isn’t our problem, most games. Equipment is huge, but sadly their removal is well-suited to killing Stoneforge Mystic. Mana denial is huge, keeping in mind they also run Wasteland because, why not? But if they are trying to Wasteland us, it is slowing them down. Do NOT waste Ancient Tomb unless it completely takes them off mana. They have to place big dummies, so let them kill themselves. It helps us race. Try to avoid x/1 creatures post board. Ethersworn Canonist is way better than Thalia, Guardian of thraben because they want to play more than one spell, especially creatures, each turn. Slow them down and take away Warping Wail as removal. Sorceries aren’t very good, but Mangara and some equipment are good.

Thalia and Mom come out games 2 and 3. 2 Canonist (slow them down), 2 Mangara (everything removal), O-Ring/Fiend hunter (general creature removal), Manriki-Gusari (they run Jitte), Ratchet Bomb (on 0 for Chalice, Endless One) come in. Keep 1 Mom for Dismember.

Council’s Judgment is actively mediocre against a deck that can and does run 4 Warping Wail and it is very expensive. Oblivion Ring is actually better and the Flickerwisp tricks are relevant. You might want to review that part of the Primer.

Moat is too slow.

Ensnaring Bridge stops us from attacking, and we really need to get through them before they get Endbringer online. If you haven’t died from that card yet, it is very, very annoying since it untaps on every upkeep.

Cataclysm hurts us more than them because their lone creature is probably better than ours and they run several artifacts, most importantly Jitte and Revoker, which also hurt us. Plus they often are stuck with an Eye of Ugin in hand, which they can now play.

Armageddon is strictly worse that Cataclysm.

Someone suggested Retribution of the Meek, which is okay. I wish I knew what other deck we used it against…

Ratchet Bomb on 0 destroys Chalice of the Void and Endless One, but not much else aside from us.

Path to Exile probably doesn’t get them a land, I don’t think they run basics in the Legacy build, which is why Blood Moon early is very good against them. However, Chalice on 1 is still a problem.

Mangara of Corondor dies to Warping Wail and is slow, but it is repeatable removal that ignores Reality Smasher’s self-protection. It also gets Chalice off the board and exiles lands.

Ghostly Prison seems okay, but it probably only slows them to one attack a turn rather than stopping them.

OMG, they’re gonna make me run Godsend, aren’t they? If the equip was one less, I would say this card is bonkers against them when equipped to Serra Avenger.

Thinking something like this for Philadelphia:

Lands 23
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Ghost Quarter

Creatures 26
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Mirran Crusader

Spells 11
4 Æther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Pithing Needle
1 Oblivion Ring or Fiend Hunter
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 Manriki-Gusari or Godsend (I’m not kidding…)

If players are expecting Eldrazi, then based on how the deck plays out…
- Miracles, Elves, Storm and possibly Sneak n Show are significantly worse thanks to a combination of Cavern, Chalice, Wail, and sheer speed.
- If they run Relic of Progenitus, which I believe is a 4-of in their sideboard, with the Chalices, Reanimator and Dredge are also in a lot of trouble.
- Burn seems soft, thanks to Chalice. Without Chalice, maybe. Eidolon hurts burn more than Eldrazi. After turn 1, they probably can’t attack with creatures and have to send burn to the face, but Eldrazi reliance on Ancient Tomb helps Burn out, so they can put themselves within kill range quickly. They also can’t afford to stumble against Burn.
- It’s pretty bad for BUG, Grixis, and 4 Color and RUG Delver and Shardless BUG because their removal looks pretty bad and their creatures don’t match up to 5/5 Haste, Trample on turns 2/3. Plus chalice on 1 is, once again, super effective.
- Jund seems to have a game that goes from mediocre to outright bad. Hurting themselves with Bob and mostly irrelevant removal.
- Stoneblade and Deathblade look mediocre because they can’t race and trample goes right through TNN, but a TNN with equipment is good if Eldrazi stumble.
- Infect has to not allow Eldrazi to resolve Chalice. If they do, then Eldrazi have removal for their creatures and can race. Since Infect uses it’s counterspells for tempo, not to stop creatures from being played, Cavern doesn’t help Eldrazi here.
- Merfolk has an average match in the absence of Islandwalk. It does have TNN and Phantasmal image, plus Meerow Reejerey to tap blockers, but if they don’t hit those, they can’t stonewall, either. A couple of lords turn a TNN with Jitte into a nightmare. 45/55 or 50/50.
- Dragon Stompy, a deck that does not impress me at all, should benefit from turn 1 Blood Moon/ Magus of the Moon and be a huge pain for Eldrazi using their own tricks. Plus 3 Ensnaring Bridge. It’s basically a prison deck with a way to finish.
- MUD is a toss up. Probably strong? Blightsteel Colossus and Wurmcoil Engine look real good, but not as fast. The longer the game goes, the better MUD’s chances.
- Lands seems strong against them because they play on the wrong angles for Eldrazi.
- Painter should demolish them. I’m expecting a lot of Painter’s Servant.

- I have no sense of how Goblins does. Can they go wide fast enough?

I expect decks with Blood Moon, which is fine for us. Thanks for wasting your slots against us.

If I had to make a guess, if people are hedging against being surprised like the Modern PT was, then I expect the following strategies:
- Merfolk from those trying to race with evasion
- Painter from combo
- MUD as a kind of direct frontal attack (sheer power versus sheer power)
- Lands from control
The biggest losers are probably many of the most popular decks in the meta: Miracles, Elves, Storm, Reanimator, Dredge, Delver, Burn, Jund, Show and Tell. Still, I expect combo decks trying to race them for the turn 2 kill, or at least getting out something that they can’t cope with (Griselbrand, Emrakul). Plus, people will play what they have and Storm, Reanimator and Sneak n Show are 21% of the meta and rising.

If this is right, we are better positioned than the biggest losers, maybe close to Merfolk or Dragon Stompy, but not better than 50/50. Mostly that is because Chalice on 0 or 1 does not ruin us, but a lot of decks fold to a deck that can do that and then kill you 2-4 turns later with big, aggressive creatures. That combination of lock-out plus aggression is very effective.

Thoughts? Alternative assessments? Philadelphia is going to be interesting. Or terrible.

Bonus Question: Modern Pro Tour even more boring than the 50th Super Bowl? Vote now!

iatee

02-09-2016, 02:39 PM

I don't think it's as bad as Elves either, this deck can still fold to mana denial and doesn't have card filtering. It also just has opening hands that probably can't be beat. Even the SB cards can be Thought-Knotted.

Godsend isn't the worst, though I think spending 6 mana (or 7 via SfM) + target will be too slow. What about Basilisk Collar? On a creature with First Strike it's equivalent to Godsend, but it also helps not lose the life race. It could also come in for more matchups. Meekstone seems better than Retribution of the Meek. I guess both Collar and Meekstone aren't great against Chalice-on-1. I guess 2 mana is the sweet spot.

Stevestamopz

02-09-2016, 06:10 PM

I played a few games against the Eldrazi deck last night with both Goblins and R/W Taxes and I'm pleasantly surprised to tell you that you should all stop worrying. I didn't change anything to either deck, I never saw a Magus of the Moon from either deck and it didn't matter because as is the usual case, DnT plays all these cards that are just incidentally good against every other deck in Legacy. Flickerwisp kills Endless One's whilst clocking, Revoker deals with their Sharpshooter, Stoneforge -> Jitte/Batterskull is backbreaking for them and Wasteland/Port is more effective than you think it would be. Even Thalia having first strike is a big deal against a deck with a lot of X/1s. Yes small sample size, all decklists are fairly untuned, whatever. A fairly nutty draw from that deck is still beatable because Batterskull is an absurd card.

As for Goblins, they just sit around chump blocking for the first few times before doing the fairly standard out of nowhere Warchief into Ringleader into Piledriver kill. Tomb activations do half the work for you.

Tldr, don't worry about it.

iatee

02-09-2016, 09:44 PM

Just another anecdote but a friend borrowed my deck tonight and 2-0'd Eldrazi. Magus made for pretty easy games.

KindGrind

02-09-2016, 10:10 PM

Just another anecdote but a friend borrowed my deck tonight and 2-0'd Eldrazi. Magus made for pretty easy games.

Red splash D&T will have a tough time losing to Eldrazi for that reason alone. I have not seen it being a problem.

Marungo

02-09-2016, 10:57 PM

2 things:
1) On the subject of spirit (as someone who routinely has main decked 2 for a long time until now) I agree that it's a card that's great and way better than people are giving it credit for. Don't act like it's not an option or absurd to suggest. That being said I don't think it is necessary by any means or an unbeatable card that's swings a matchup completely in our favor. It's certainly good and really helps a ton against elves (my games without it have been much less close than the ones I had with it) but it's mediocre vs blue midrange decks since it can't afford to attack and die in combat and is essentially just an enchantment at that point, and is a little late vs combo sometimes.
2) I don't think the sky is felling when I reference the eldrazi deck. All I am saying is I feel like we are a dog in the matchup, particularly game 1. That was just from my experience but it's certainly possible I am mistaken.

redtwister

02-10-2016, 11:08 AM

I agree Imperial Taxes should have a strong match-up against Eldrazi. It may also be that BUG Delver using a lot of hand destruction and Decay for Chalice is the best Delver option, and that seems to benefit Imperial Taxes as well. If I am right that Lands has a very strong game against them, Imperial is also good against Lands.

If my sense of how Eldrazi impacts the meta is right, it may actually significantly reduce the popularity of some of our worse match-ups. Unlike Cruise/Dig, I don't think it warps the meta because it doesn't make an existing deck or set of decks overbearing, nor is it itself without adequate answers, unlike in Modern, unless it has a severe negative impact on Aggro Combo decks, which it could. I think it will shake-up the meta, however, because it introduces a viable, powerful mid-range beatdown deck (unlike Jund, which is a control-oriented, "pure" mid-range deck) and that is potentially favorable for us.

I don't mind if this deck shrinks the presence of Jund and Elves, and forces Miracles to adapt in ways that maybe make it weaker to us (IMO, they have to go back to Batterskull/Entreat the Angels because Monastery Mentor is pretty soft to them.) I'm also okay if it hurts Burn so I don't have to sideboard for it.

WW will have to adjust more than Imperial, but it is possible.

Koke_MTG

02-10-2016, 12:04 PM

I think most of you guys are over worried about the impact of the Eldrazi deck in the format. Could be a decent option with a solid list in a near future (in fact, I like it more than a classic MUD deck for example) but we should not worry yet. I do not find the relationship between the Legacy format and the last PT. Do not let the hype eat.

If the Eldrazi deck becomes a solid archetype in Legacy I think Imperial Taxes completely eats it, and the mono-white version has a decent matchup while Reality Smasher does not hit the ground. This could be the main problem but I think we normally can lock them with our mana disruption in the early game. Warping Wail and Umezawa's Jitte would be problematic points as well. I think without Reality Smasher we can race them with our flyers if they do not draw too many hate cards to put it more difficult. So I think we would still be in positive against this kind of prison decks as we do against Dragon Stompy or especially MUD: a bit of disruption, a high clock and chumpblocking their beasts with useless creatures like Mother of Runes in this case.

Yesterday I play my first round against the Eldrazi deck and crushed it racing beasts with the help of SoWaP. I did not find it too hard to beat.

But again, I think the main thing is if this deck finally fits to the format because it lose against early Blood Moons and I do not think it has a decent matchup against R/G Lands and Show and Tell decks as well.

Mapson

02-10-2016, 03:35 PM

Hi guys. I don't usually post in this thread but I just wanted to let anyone know. Especially those interested in building this deck that a couple friends and I are starting a youtube page about magic and we recently posted our first deck tech video which is about Death and Taxes. Here's the link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HriXlgg7Ge8

Marungo

02-11-2016, 10:31 AM

More of a general Legacy thing but what are your guys' thoughts on this: https://mindsportslive.blob.core.windows.net/imageuploads/imageuploads/df5ba803-4e24-499b-923e-3e6d6129cbe5.jpg
Julian asked a bunch of great legacy players what their top 5 decks were. Death and taxes was not top 5 for the most part. Thoughts on the results as a whole?

iatee

02-11-2016, 12:13 PM

I think most people would agree that Miracles is the best overall deck in legacy, ANT is the best pure combo deck. Outside of that the lines between the top decks are kinda blurry and the relative success of decks can be pretty meta-dependent. Most of the other decks in the top 10 have one or two very bad matchups that are also t1 decks (Elves for D+T, Combo for Lands, D+T for Sneak etc.) whereas Miracles only has to play 12-Post once in a blue moon, and ANT doesn't have to face MUD/prison styles decks very often either. I think that's a good place to draw a line / core reason behind their long-term success.

redtwister

02-11-2016, 12:54 PM

I mean, we are an anti-meta deck, and that would mean we aren't likely ever the best deck based on Game 1 consistency and resilience to meta changes (in other words, it typically takes DnT some time to adjust because it has to learn the meta, as opposed to being powerful regardless of the competition.) Plus, how often is DnT overwhelmingly favored? It's not like it's an easy deck to play 15 rounds with over 2 days and it may be the best deck mentioned with no real deck manipulation. Overall, I'm pleased it made Top 5 for 5 players.

Koke_MTG

02-11-2016, 04:43 PM

The truth is that most of tier decks have an advantage over us playing 8 or more cantrips to find threats, hate cards or whatever... So these decks have more options to find key cards or whatever they need in a particular situation playing a regular or bad matchup, hiding here their weaknesses and, as a result, being more balanced and fighting bad matchups better. On the other hand, our deck sometimes spits us because our lack of manipulation. We have to draw better than the majority of our opponents seeing less cards from our library, so statistically we would have to win less games in a long term because of the lack of answers in specific situations. For this reason and because people, as a result, prefer blue decks and play them more often than decks like D&T, our deck is a bit hidden.

But sincerely, I am pleased with D&T a bit hidden. We eat less hate cards and often we keep winning Delver decks, which are a great percent of the metagame. This is fantastic because in a big tournament you would have to face them more than once, and very few archetypes have a matchup against Delver strategies as D&T has.

Colin

02-12-2016, 12:04 PM

In reading the main Eldrazi stompy forum

We tested with Death & Taxes, Miracles, and Goblins all pre-board.

Unsurprisingly, Death & Taxes is really difficult for Eldrazi to beat, though it has a better matchup than MUD or other Prison Stompy variants. The only card D&T cares about is Endbringer, which is absolutely insane. If you aren't playing four Endbringer already I would strongly consider playing four - it's insanely powerful and shores up otherwise poor fair matchups. Even after Ulamog exiled my Jitte and Serra Avenger and he attacked me, I won. You can't really do much about fliers (Endbringer can pacify or ping Flickerwisp, Warping Wail exiles Flickerwisp, Ulamog cast trigger) so an equipped Serra Avenger can just be GG.

This seemed like the common consensus in the thread. D&T does it's thing.

Sometimes we lose to the card in every deck that trumps us if we don't have the answer.

Marungo

02-12-2016, 11:37 PM

In reading the main Eldrazi stompy forum

This seemed like the common consensus in the thread. D&T does it's thing.

Sometimes we lose to the card in every deck that trumps us if we don't have the answer.

Let's just look at this objectively. The lists I am seeing and playing against aren't bothering with ulamog and are just playing the generically powerful eldrazi (smasher, thought-knot, endless, mimic, etc.). All of these guys are just strictly better in terms of power than any of our creatures. They're also a lot leaner than the normal MUD decks and not wasting time with monolith or lodestone golem and just killing people. Their disruption of chalice and sphere are good vs us (particularly chalice), and as for and LD plans versus them; they have 16 sol lands for their eldrazi. We can't reliably LD them. And when it comes to our "disruption" it's mostly based around shutting down noncreature spells which they aren't wasting their time with for the most part.

I am not saying the matchup is unwinnable nor and I saying flyers are not likely a problem for them, but how do people really see this as a "good" matchup? It just doesn't make sense. It might not be atrocious but it cannot be favored

Barook

02-13-2016, 12:23 AM

I'm currently working on an Eldrazi Stompy list. Vial is very vital for speed reason from what I've seen so far.

My first impression was that the match-up is somewhat even to slightly in favor of D&T. But it really depends on the list you're facing. E.g. my matches with D&T and other small creatures have caused me to adapt multiple Jittes into my Eldrazi 75 afterwards. How it changes the match-up is yet to be seen, but disruption into T3 active Jitte sounds terrifying. Endbringer can also be major pain in the ass if they run it (most don't run it because it's slow).

I wouldn't worry too much about it until the Eldrazi lists have their kinks worked out and have a more unified template.

redtwister

02-13-2016, 03:42 PM

For WW...
I think the essential thing is that Eldrazi will victimize Vryn Wingmare builds, so you have to go with a more aggressive 3/4 Serra Avenger and 3/4 Mirran Crusader build or shave 2 Crusader and add Mangara of Corondors. I'm not saying they don't have answers, but if they are spending time killing Mangara, they are not developing their board, and their deck is soft to Mangara + Avenger with equipment. Phyrexian Revoker calls Jitte early and Endbringer late.

I'm considering a Ghost Quarter as a utility land and an extra Plains, rather than our other two utility lands (typically Horizon Canopy, Cavern of Souls or Mishra's Factory.)

Sideboard, I am thinking Ratchet Bomb (kills Endless One and Chalice of the Void), Oblivion Ring because they can't counter it (against DnT, they go full 4 Warping Wail and it is easier to cast), and Manriki-Gusari or, if I want to stretch my deck uncomfortably, Godsend (not kidding, though it seems unlikely.)

Games 2/3 I'm thinking
-4 Mother of Runes
-3 Thalia, Guardian of thraben
+2 Mangara of Corondor
+2 Ethersworn Canonist (keeping them from abusing their mana to cast multiple spells per turn)
+1 Ratchet Bomb
+1 Oblivion ring
+1 equipment.

iatee

02-13-2016, 04:34 PM

Would Godsend come in for any other match-up in legacy? It's definitely a sweet card, but even if you have it in your opening hand, if they have a beat-face start on the play, you might not be able to live long enough to play it + equip, esp if they have a Warping Wail or something.

Isn't Meekstone just safer? I think I would rather see that in my opening hand, can't be t2 Thought-Knotted if you play it immediately, has some application vs TNN decks.

Colin

02-15-2016, 09:52 AM

Let's just look at this objectively. The lists I am seeing and playing against aren't bothering with ulamog and are just playing the generically powerful eldrazi (smasher, thought-knot, endless, mimic, etc.). All of these guys are just strictly better in terms of power than any of our creatures. They're also a lot leaner than the normal MUD decks and not wasting time with monolith or lodestone golem and just killing people. Their disruption of chalice and sphere are good vs us (particularly chalice), and as for and LD plans versus them; they have 16 sol lands for their eldrazi. We can't reliably LD them. And when it comes to our "disruption" it's mostly based around shutting down noncreature spells which they aren't wasting their time with for the most part.

I am not saying the matchup is unwinnable nor and I saying flyers are not likely a problem for them, but how do people really see this as a "good" matchup? It just doesn't make sense. It might not be atrocious but it cannot be favored

You just need to play the matchup man. After playing some games against a straight up "run you over" eldrazi build I was 13-7 preboard (on the play 50% and 11-4 post board (50% on the play), it became very clear that the have some definite "trump hands" against us. Turn 1 chalice, turn 2 mimic and 4/4 endless one, turn three fatty really hurts. However, stoneforge->batterskull is pretty much all I needed to pull the games out.

I would make a couple notes to think about in this match:

1) I found land disruption to be a waste (pun intended) unless they stumble very, very badly. If you hold up on wastelanding and porting and just play creatures you will be suprised how well a linear strategy works.

2)contrary to my first note, in my playtesting killing an eye of ugin is huge. all their sol lands are good, but turn 2-3 with an eye in play usually means the eye "taps" for 4-6 mana. if they have the second copy. fine. it's better than a giant hasty trampler.

3)Batterskull basically wins you the game, the only real thing to watch for is a sandbagged thought-knot seer. Which they basically cant do, because it's one of their heavy hitters and if they're not playing big dudes, they're not winning. My opponent tried holding up TKS a few games to try and catch the equipment. The only game he won doing this he had 2 reality smashers.

4) ratchet bomb is amazing. if this deck sees a lot of play I'd suggest 2 in the board.

This match feels a lot like mono-red sneak attack but with a way better mana.

Edit: Quick note on the last bolded line. I would say that the part that makes us "favored" in this match is our options. Everything in D&T is there for just that reason, it gives us options. Eldrazi may become something different in the future, but for right now it's just so mono-directional that we can out maneuver them regularly. Both decks live off the top, D&T can just continue to layer and grind out value.

Finn

02-15-2016, 03:10 PM

Thanks, Colin. You just wrote the Eldrazi matchup notes for the OP on Salvation.

Marungo

02-15-2016, 03:54 PM

You just need to play the matchup man. After playing some games against a straight up "run you over" eldrazi build I was 13-7 preboard (on the play 50% and 11-4 post board (50% on the play), it became very clear that the have some definite "trump hands" against us. Turn 1 chalice, turn 2 mimic and 4/4 endless one, turn three fatty really hurts. However, stoneforge->batterskull is pretty much all I needed to pull the games out.

I would make a couple notes to think about in this match:

1) I found land disruption to be a waste (pun intended) unless they stumble very, very badly. If you hold up on wastelanding and porting and just play creatures you will be suprised how well a linear strategy works.

2)contrary to my first note, in my playtesting killing an eye of ugin is huge. all their sol lands are good, but turn 2-3 with an eye in play usually means the eye "taps" for 4-6 mana. if they have the second copy. fine. it's better than a giant hasty trampler.

3)Batterskull basically wins you the game, the only real thing to watch for is a sandbagged thought-knot seer. Which they basically cant do, because it's one of their heavy hitters and if they're not playing big dudes, they're not winning. My opponent tried holding up TKS a few games to try and catch the equipment. The only game he won doing this he had 2 reality smashers.

4) ratchet bomb is amazing. if this deck sees a lot of play I'd suggest 2 in the board.

This match feels a lot like mono-red sneak attack but with a way better mana.

Edit: Quick note on the last bolded line. I would say that the part that makes us "favored" in this match is our options. Everything in D&T is there for just that reason, it gives us options. Eldrazi may become something different in the future, but for right now it's just so mono-directional that we can out maneuver them regularly. Both decks live off the top, D&T can just continue to layer and grind out value.

Thanks for the notes. I'll definitely reevaluate the matchup. I did test against the deck with a variety of players and came to my conclusion but have to agree on the batterskull sentiment. Card is really good in the matchup. I appreciate the well thought out evaluation though. Too many times I feel like people just say "it's good" or "it's bad" and don't explain and it leads to a lot of back and forth without progress so I appreciate the thoughts on the matchup

EDIT: Just wanted to note that all my testing was with Vryn Wingmare. I definitely feel that they hurt me a lot in the main board games. Should eldrazi get good or prevalent then I recommend a more "aggressive" version with crusaders instead

Colin

02-15-2016, 04:21 PM

Thanks, Colin. You just wrote the Eldrazi matchup notes for the OP on Salvation.

Awesome, it's an honor?!?

Thanks for the notes. I'll definitely reevaluate the matchup. I did test against the deck with a variety of players and came to my conclusion but have to agree on the batterskull sentiment. Card is really good in the matchup. I appreciate the well thought out evaluation though. Too many times I feel like people just say "it's good" or "it's bad" and don't explain and it leads to a lot of back and forth without progress so I appreciate the thoughts on the matchup

EDIT: Just wanted to note that all my testing was with Vryn Wingmare. I definitely feel that they hurt me a lot in the main board games. Should eldrazi get good or prevalent then I recommend a more "aggressive" version with crusaders instead

I should state that I have 1 wingmare in my 75. I have 2-3 avengers, 1 brimaz and 2 crusaders in flex, big fat 0 mangara right now

Marungo

02-15-2016, 04:52 PM

Colin

02-16-2016, 09:27 AM

I know it's been discussed over and over, but what are people thoughts on Wingmare vs more aggressive creatures? Baltimore's meta is really diverse with plenty of lands and miracles, but also a healthy amount of delver, shardless, deathblade, and a variety of combo decks. I am intrigued by a more aggressive based strategy but what is the consensus with such a diverse meta?

With the death of omni-tell I feel like wingmare falls back into the same slot as Aven Mindsensor, spirit of the Labyrinth and MAngara. They all "tax" differently and all die to pretty much every piece of Hate. They are also almost always played as a 1 or 2 of. You basically cant be worse off with any of them, it's mostly on how YOU want to play your deck.

I like Mindsensor and SotL in a meta full of delver. They have so much manipulation that a turn 2 spirit is a must kill and AMS trades with delver and threatens fetchlands.

I like Wingmare as a 1-2 against combo heavy, or Miracles heavy meta because they want to tap out so often and you want to be casting threats turn 1-4 then porting later. it's really hard to top, snap and plow something when you're being ported and have a thalia effect.

I like mangara in those weird local store metas where everyone is playing their "local meta deck" and you never know when someone is going to cast Grave pact, doubling season and lingering souls (personally the funniest local meta deck I've seen) so you need a answer to everything.

If you look through the list: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=319&meta=39&f=LE I'd read it as "it doesn't matter which ones you choose". So you should play what you feel most comfortable playing?

Marungo

02-16-2016, 10:11 AM

With the death of omni-tell I feel like wingmare falls back into the same slot as Aven Mindsensor, spirit of the Labyrinth and MAngara. They all "tax" differently and all die to pretty much every piece of Hate. They are also almost always played as a 1 or 2 of. You basically cant be worse off with any of them, it's mostly on how YOU want to play your deck.

I like Mindsensor and SotL in a meta full of delver. They have so much manipulation that a turn 2 spirit is a must kill and AMS trades with delver and threatens fetchlands.

I like Wingmare as a 1-2 against combo heavy, or Miracles heavy meta because they want to tap out so often and you want to be casting threats turn 1-4 then porting later. it's really hard to top, snap and plow something when you're being ported and have a thalia effect.

I like mangara in those weird local store metas where everyone is playing their "local meta deck" and you never know when someone is going to cast Grave pact, doubling season and lingering souls (personally the funniest local meta deck I've seen) so you need a answer to everything.

If you look through the list: http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=319&meta=39&f=LE I'd read it as "it doesn't matter which ones you choose". So you should play what you feel most comfortable playing?

This is actually advice I give people all the time. "Play what you're comfortable with." That being said, I've played the deck for a year now. I've played the variations aside from a purely aggressive build (3 crusaders 4 avengers). I'm by no means a master or anything special but I also like playing what's optimal. I have had fun and success with more beaters and some combo hatebears and really have enjoyed playing Wingmare the past few weeks. I feel most comfortable with Wingmare, but I would like to hear opinions on what other people think is good

Koke_MTG

02-16-2016, 10:56 AM

Vryn Wingmare is also really good against Delver decks, especially first games. I used to run Aven Mindcensor in flex slots before the release of Vryn Wingmare and it was good, but I think we almost always want to be proactive unless we have a Vial in play or we are playing with our Mother of Runes, so Vryn Wingmare is better than Aven Mindcensor for this gameplan because sometimes you have to keep the bird in hand waiting to play it reactively but you have to put some pressure at the same time or disrupt your opponent's gameplan with your manabase... It is similar to why I am not playing Warping Wail at the moment. The only thing I do not want about the change is the deterioration of the Elves matchup, but it is profitable because you improve many others and I am not seeing a lot of Elves actually. I played SotL in the TC era too, but I think he does little for us: neither a real tax effect nor a big fit to run. Mangara of Corondor is good to have a mainboard catch-all but his combo is really slow. For this reason I prefer keep catch-all in the sideboard and in form of Cuncil's Judgment.

The thing with the flex slots is that you can play these hatebears or some type of beater. If you choose for X/1 hatebears probably you will be better in combo matchups but you will have to change your gameplan in second and third games vs non-combo matchups, especially against BGx decks to be less weak to Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, Dread of Night... So for example if you play D&T with Vryn Wingmare, the key question is to find the right way to keep the deck winning after game 1 and find the right configuration of the list if you have to change your gameplan after game 1. A good thing is that with 8 Thalias you generally increase the percentage of G1 wins, being more consistant and playing with a really clear gameplan. This is even more evident when you play against Delver decks.

iatee

02-16-2016, 11:06 AM

While I had mixed feelings about Wingmare early on, I really like it now. Thalia into Mindcensor doesn't compare to Thalia into Wingmare.

Warping Wail was again good for me against a 4c Aggro Loam deck yesterday, killed a Bob. I think it comes in vs any deck with 4 Bobs 4 DRS.

Finn

02-16-2016, 12:23 PM

I think it comes in vs any deck with 4 Bobs 4 DRS.This was my thought the moment I saw the card, well just after I dreamed of countering Ancestral Vision and Show and Tell. Seriously, Dark Confidant has always been a killer for DnT.

redtwister

02-16-2016, 12:53 PM

Marungo, where do you play? I am at Titan Games mostly.

Vryn Wingmare is a great addition and I don't think it is best run as a 1 or 2-of, but as a 4-of. I think it is much better than Aven Mindcensor and Spirit of the Labyrinth because against decks that want to cast non-creature spells, stacking the Thalia tax is simply more powerful than the other two angles. Now, you won't get the sneak blow-outs you get with the others, but when you think about it, how often do you really get those when you need them? Whereas, making every non-creature spell cost 2 more is frequently a solid prison.

That said, Wingmare is terrible, absolutely terrible, in the Eldrazi match. Wingmare hinders us a lot and them not at all. Mom and Thalia are also terrible. With those two alone, I side out 8 cards immediately, so do I want to have to side out even more? Eldrazi also change what we can expect to face, and therefore lower the meta value of the Wingmare build.

And the Eldrazi deck is a devastatingly bad match for Miracles. I play with several very aggressive, top tier Legacy players (most notably Paul Lynch) and they are developing and tweaking Eldrazi. The presence of Eldrazi will lower the presence of Miracles.

The best Delver decks against Eldrazi are BUG and Grixis, and you don't want Wingmare in those either, really. They are great game 1, and terrible after siding.

Combo decks susceptible to Chalice on 0 or 1 are also hurt because Eldrazi plays 4 main, combined with their insane speed. The exception is Infect, which seems quite good against it. However, I don't find Vryn as good against Infect as I would like because it is a little slow and I don't want to tax my removal too much. I want Canonist, not Wingmare.

Lands is very good against Eldrazi, but Wingmare is kind of so-so in that match as well.

So if, as I suspect, the Eldrazi decks are fairly well-tuned for Philadephia and out in some force, the Wingmare build will cost you far more matches than it will get you.

On the other hand, Serra Avenger and Mirran Crusader are very good against Bug and Grixis Delver, fine against Lands, good enough against Miracles, and better against Infect. You also, absolutely, want equipment on an Avenger or Crusader ASAP in that match.

I also don't think Batterskull closes out the game when they can play 5/5 and 6/6 and even 8/8 creatures. Crusader with Jitte is your best combination (Crusader blanks literally all of their removal except Ratchet Bomb) and the only thing fast enough. More often than people seem to think, if you Stoneforge Mystic for equipment, they are going to kill SfM immediately, one way or another and leave you with B-Skully in hand giving you the skully. And oddly like Goblins, they are far more afraid of Jitte than Batterskull. They play 4 Phyrexian Revoker and will happily call Batterskull all day long, but they also run Jitte in their build, so getting Jitte out is worse for them than for us.

The main loss with Wingmare out then are Miracles and non-creature combo decks, which is significant, but the Eldrazi are going to prey on those decks (except Sneak and Show, Painter and random Blood Moon shenanigans decks.) As a result, I am betting on a meta shift that will heavily favor the Avenger-Crusader build over the Wingmare-Thalia build.

Currently, I side out Mom and Thalia, immediately and bring in:
2 Council's Judgment (I like the idea of Mangara better, but in practice he came on line too slowly and was dealt with by Warping Wail just as often.)
1 Equipment (testing Manriki-Gusari)
1 Path to Exile (they run 0 basics in Legacy)
2 Ethersworn Canonist (they like casting multiple creatures per turn. Don't let them.)
2 Pithing Needle (Jitte if they land it, but Endbringer later. Even Ratchet Bomb, if you see it.)

I am considering siding out two Aether Vial and bringing in 2 Containment Priest because they bring in Needle for vial and I am not fighting over Vial with artifact hate. Plus a hard cast Flickerwisp with Priest is more removal.

FYI, if you didn't know it, Wisp is just huge value in the match.

RE: Ratchet Bomb
Yes, Ratchet Bomb is an option, but I find it underwhelming because I want it on 0 and at that point it has at most 8 targets, and typically I have seen them side out Chalice against us in favor of their own Ratchet Bomb and Pithing Needle because they know our removal runs out way before their creatures do, so stopping our equipment and Vials are way more important than stopping what are typically 4 1cmc spells. As a result, RB really only has 4 targets post-board that don't also hurt us.

Violence

02-16-2016, 01:05 PM

Marungo and redtwister, I'm the Blood and Taxes player at Amazing Spiral. I might've seen you guys around?

Anyway, with the supposed decline of Vryn Wingmare, I was wondering if you guys have tested Eldrazi Displacer. Sadly for me, it doesn't fit well as a tutor target for Recruiter, but I think it has a lot of potential for at least Mono White, to the point where I'm thinking about playing Mono White again.

It taps down any attacker, including things like Goyf, Reality Smasher, what have you. It resets Delver, kills Marit Lage(not really that relevant, I know), Angel tokens, I guess. It also lets you perpetually Stoneforge, Flickerwisp, Revoker, Mangara, save your guys from Warping Wails, doesn't die to Warping Wail or Punishing Fire...

I feel like there's a big upside to this guy, and for people running 2 Caverns in the main, that's 10 colorless sources maindeck for the ability, which seems pretty good to me. We can even add more with stuff like Mutavault, Tower of the Magistrate, etc.

As the meta moves toward a harsher environment for 3 mana flying Thalias, maybe we should be moving toward Displacer?

redtwister

02-16-2016, 01:17 PM

Violence

02-16-2016, 01:24 PM

I tried it and ended up hating it. Not because the idea isn't great, but because 2 and colorless was so hard to hit without really jazzing up the deck. Every time I got it out, it made me angry sitting there as a vanilla 3/3 because I didn't have colorless or I had better uses for it.

I'm also convinced that we ought to minimize non-Plains lands. I'm running 12 Plains because I expect Wasteland and Blood Moon to be out in force. Heck, if I was Merfolk, I would put 3 or 4 Back to Basics in the side.

Mmm, I haven't tested it myself, maybe it's too cute after all. I think the power level is definitely there though.

Also, if we need colorless sources(and I know how dumb what I'm about to propose sounds), adding a few Wastes that work through the non-basic hate might not be the worst?

I know, as the Imperial player I've locked myself out of Flickerwisp so many times before top decking it, white sources are precious. But if what we lack is colorless sources for Displacer to do work in the matchup he shines in, would Wastes be that bad?

Wynk

02-16-2016, 02:02 PM

Mmm, I haven't tested it myself, maybe it's too cute after all. I think the power level is definitely there though.

Also, if we need colorless sources(and I know how dumb what I'm about to propose sounds), adding a few Wastes that work through the non-basic hate might not be the worst?

I know, as the Imperial player I've locked myself out of Flickerwisp so many times before top decking it, white sources are precious. But if what we lack is colorless sources for Displacer to do work in the matchup he shines in, would Wastes be that bad?

I've playtested with Displacer with 10 colorless sources in a monowhite build. I've loved it as Flickerwisp 5-6. Having a 3/3 beater is honestly not that bad and it really shines when you have 3 lands up, stopping lethal Infectors, Removal, Flickering Flickerwisp against Terminus to save your team and Reusing Stoneforge multiple times. Its also not white which is relevant vs. Dread of Night. It think its fine as a mid/late game creature. I really want to try it vs. Eldrazi in combination with containment priest.

Marungo

02-16-2016, 02:50 PM

I play mostly at Games and Stuff on Tuesdays. I was really asking for more of a consensus on the deck since I'm aware where the options are good and where they're not. I also tend to agree wisp is good in the matchup. Funny you mention Paul though as he was the one I was referring to mainly with the "tuning and tweaking" of the deck. I really just wanted to see what people thought was better in the meta I described and with what we might be expecting in Philly.

As far as displacer goes I think it's pretty bad. He's a mana sink which I'm not a fan of, is just kinda worse than flickerwisp in most ways, and isn't really worth a combo slot with priest (Marungo and karakas is just better I think). I think I'll run a more crusader and avenger build tonight and see how it goes.

Bosque

02-16-2016, 02:56 PM

redtwister

02-16-2016, 03:57 PM

Violence

02-16-2016, 05:08 PM

If we want more colorless sources I would run Battlefield Forge over Wastes any day.

Yes, I know. I would never try to run Wastes in Imperial, because it's already difficult for me to play around Nonbasic hate like Blood Moon, BtB, and Wasteland, but redtwister was talking about Mono-white D&T wanting to maximize Plains because of all the non-basic hate things like Eldrazi Stompy might be bringing to the table. I'm just saying that Mono White can probably afford to run a Waste or two if Eldrazi Displacer is worth it(and he doesn't think it is), to have colorless source/s that survive hate.

And yeah, maybe we need to shift our focus.

I know I run two Cavern because of how damn amazing it is against Counterbalance, and I play Pia and Kiran against Miracles because it's absurdly hard for them to beat. But if the meta shifts to one where Eldrazi Stompy becomes a top tier deck, and Miracles wanes as a result, I think I would disassemble Imperial, make Painter, and return to Mono W D&T. The Red plan really doesn't help if we're facing an aggressive deck, it does a lot better in grindy matchups where we can set up a lock or find hate pieces easily.

iatee

02-16-2016, 10:12 PM

I played Eldrazi stompy w/ Imperial at a tournament tonight and beat it pretty easily. At this point I've seen / played enough Imperial/Eldrazi games to believe that it's a matchup you should be very happy to play. They play aggressively costed creatures, you play cards that just win on the spot. It's not unloseable, nothing ever is, but mana denial wrecks the deck, they play off the top so much that while you *can* lose to Reality Smasher ->Reality Smasher-> Reality Smasher, realistically a lot of their topdecks end up being poorly timed acceleration / prison pieces. If you're scared of the deck play 4 Magus in your 75 - but there's no way Mono-W has a better matchup overall.

Also won another game off Warping Wail today - this time vs Stormchaser Delver as a removal spell in a pinch.

Marungo

02-17-2016, 08:37 AM

@Marungo
Yeah, I went a little overboard, I suppose, but I think the question of whether or not Vryn Wingmare is good is one question people recently raised (and IMO it is very good in the right meta.) Whether or not Wingmare is good against Eldrazi is another question. Thirdly, not only is Wingmare bad against Eldrazi, but the Eldrazi decks may very well alter the meta (they will in Philadelphia for sure), and if they do, they mostly harm the decks that Wingmare was strong against, making the Wingmare build even worse at a large even like an Open because the decks it preys upon are in short supply.

Also, you called "Mangara" "Marungo", which is hilarious.

Yeah, Paul and another member of his team were up at Titan last night. Their build is improving in nuanced ways. I think they have their eyes on DnT as one of their problem matches.

Do not apologize for giving an in depth response. You went into detail on how eldrazi affects the meta and how that affects us so that's definitely something I encourage as opposed to short answer responses with no explanation.

In other news, I went 2-1 last night beating shardless BUG, burn, and losing to UWR delver. The additional crusaders and avengers didn't feel particularly impactful, but I obviously liked the increase in them vs shardless. I don't know where I'll go from here but I'm leaning towards just going back to Wingmare build because I like the impact it has game one.

Also I talked to Paul last night and he said he felt DnT is a great matchup for them like I expected. I watched him play test and stomp a pretty good DnT player several times. He said that as long as the eldrazi player boarded properly and didn't get completely screwed then it was really favored for them.

Finn

02-17-2016, 10:12 AM

Keep Mangara of Corondor in your deck to fight Eldrazi.

Marungo

02-17-2016, 10:53 AM

Keep Mangara of Corondor in your deck to fight Eldrazi.

I do agree that if you want to beat eldrazi then mangara is great in the matchup. I think I'll just kinda concede a little to the matchup until it gets popular, but it's good for us to establish what's good and what's not good versus them. If the deck eventually becomes big I think Wingmare builds will disappear and we will shift to a more board stall/board control build with mangara and more crusaders

Luca Grease

02-17-2016, 06:36 PM

Keep Mangara of Corondor in your deck to fight Eldrazi.

Ditto. I never took the singleton Mangara out of my deck and I've yet to regret it. Might consider going back to 2 if Eldrazi becomes huge. He might be slow but he's still got it. Also, I've abandoned the idea of switching my 2 SB Judgements for Warping Wails. Judgement is just what the doctor ordered against Eldrazi. As for the matchup in general, it doesn't seem bad at all from what games I managed to play against it on cockatrice. It's kinda like MUD in the sense that our cards are either completely useless or super awesome. Aside from the aforementioned Batterskull and Mangara, and the always reliable plows, ports and wastelands, Flickerwisp is another all-star, blanking chalice, resetting skull, and turning endless ones into comic relief. Combine it with containment priest post board for maximum ownage.

Hyped

02-18-2016, 12:40 PM

Hi! I went 2-1-1 at Redcap's Corners legacy event last night using the following list:

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
4 AEther Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Plateau
3 Arid Mesa
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Imperial Recruiter
2 Flooded Strand
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Mangara
2 Serra Avenger

SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Sudden Demise
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar

round 1 - bye. There were an odd number of players. Woo hoo. I got to do some trades with the shop.
round 2 - Draw vs. Thopter / tezzeret
g1 w I have the goods and go t1 cavern and mom, t2 thalia and begin port / wasteland harass. He has a couple of basics and uses force of will, baleful strix and toxic deluge to slow down my assault. I eventually swing for lethal after Swordsing a baleful strix
g2 L He has a fast start and gets thopter combo online fairly quickly. I survive long enough to use cataclysm and reset the boards a bit, but i run out of steam afterward and fail to rebuild after cataclysm. It was a long game but he eventually stuck a planewalker and gained momentum up to an ultimate with tezz for the kill
g3 Time. Game 3 went to time in another slow and grindy game. I had swords, he had toxic deluge and we trade removal for several turns before running out of time. He was running Abyss in his 75 and had a cool, tough deck.

round 3 - dredge 2-1
g1 W I keep a 7 with no 1 drop but thalia, port, SFM. After he takes a mull to 5 on his turn 1 he cabal therapies himself to get a dredger in the yard, but on his next draw when he goes for dredge he does not get a second dredge card in the GY and thalia / port shut him out of the game
g2 I mull to 6 and keep a pretty slow hand not wanting to mulligan further. he has an explosive game and combos out turn 2 cabal therapying me multiple times and I scoop quickly as to not reveal any SB cards.
g3 I have an end of turn 1 enlightened tutor into a turn 2 rest in peace which exiles half of his deck which he churned up on t1 I have a backup grafdigger's cage in play and he scoops after a few more turns.

round 4 - eldrazi 0-2
g1 He has a turn 1 eye of ugin and casts 2 endless ones and an eldrazi mimic for free. I stabilize at 5 life and start to gain life back with batterskull, but he has maindeck
revokers to shut off my equipment / sfm and eventually creatures bigger than my bskull
g2 repeat warping wails get rid of 3 of my creatures, thalia revoker and SFM. After a long game with multiple revokers on each side of the table and multiple wastelands on each side of the table
he has an eldrazi equiped with a jitte and a SoIF then phyrexian metamorphs copying SoIF to bury me in equipments and CA. I tried blocking with serra angels / mirran crusaders
but he kept big creatures coming everyturn which were generally bigger than my creatures.
I did not see enough of magus of the moon or flickerwisp in all 3 games vs. eldrazi but they really would have helped. Flickerwisp can kill an endless one by reducing it to 0 counters.
Afterwards my opponent agreed he is very soft to blood moon.

I may have set myself back by trading the shop during my bye round becauseI had price tags and all that goes along with trading on my brain instead of just playing, but I had a fun time and a good enough record to come out ahead. I saw lots of players at the shop excited about the upcoming SCG open at the end of the month.

Kayradis

02-19-2016, 03:29 PM

Alright.
Since I'm in Europe for the next few months, Julian convinced me to come to Ovino.
Having left my beloved Elves at home in Canada, I'll probably gonna be sleeving good old D&T.

I got the stock playlist with a handful of weird addition (Im known for out of the blue ideas....!) and Im looking at what's the stock list ATM in the European meta, and what's everybody else idea on the list.

Hope to see a bunch of you in Ovino!

nevilshute

02-21-2016, 12:45 PM

So, today I had a chance to grind some matches against Eldrazi against a friend of mine. I played the following list:

4x Mom
4x Thalia
4x SFM
4x Flicker
4x Revoker
2x Avenger
1x Mirran
1x Brimaz
1x Eldrazi Displacer
1x Mangara
4x plow
4x vial
3x equipment (jitte, bat, sofai)

7x plains
4x wasteland
4x port
3x karakas
1x cavern
1x canopy
1x flagstones
1x ghost quarter
1x sea gate wreckage

sb:
2x canonist
2x rip
2x liege
2x cataclysm
1x ghostly prison
1x disenchant
1x council's judgment
1x engineered explosives
1x warping wail
1x containment priest
1x path to exile

We played 2 non-sideboarded games that I won 2-0 and then played 21 games post board which ended 11-10 in Eldrazi's favour. So yeah, felt very even. I boarded like this:

+
ghostly prison (was good, not insane, but pretty good in conjunction with our mana denial. Would bring it in every time if I have it in board)
path to exile (great to have additional removal. Of course it sucks that it dies to chalice, but they won't have chalice all the time and won't prioritize it as highly vs us as vs other decks. My opponent's build didn't run basics so it was especially nice, but even with basics in their deck I like it).
councul's judgment (slow but good alround answer, would bring it in every time)
disenchant (drew it only a few times and never got to use it. Still think it's fine as an answer to chalice, revoker and jitte - bring it in)
engineered exposives (good to have an answer to chalice and endless one, can often 2-for-1 them)
containment priest (not that relevant against them but ultimately I decided that it would matter more than thalia. Remember I was playin displacer and displacer + priest is great. Also turns flickerwisp into plow. Not sure if thalia + karakas to chump isn't just better... though whenever I drew one of my remaining thalias I wasn't excited).

-
4 mom
2 thalia

Bolded stuff from my list was a test and neither card really did enough to warrant further testing I don't think. Of the two the Sea Gate Wreckage just felt too situational and I never in the 23 games got to activate it (not that that in and of itself means much). Displacer has an awesome effect and if the activation cost was W2 instead of <>2 then I'd be much more inclined to run it as a one of. As it is I don't think it's worth it. NB: I was also running a Ghost Quarter in the main, mostly to have another <> producing land that was somewhat in tune with our main deck. My opponent didn't run any basic lands and the GQ was very helpful, so take that as you will.

Some key points:

Higher Ceiling
When the Eldrazi deck draws the nuts then that beats us drawing the nuts. Like, their ceiling is higher than ours. There is almost no way we beat their eye into mimic + endless one into TKS into smasher whereas we don't have quite the same overwhelming draws. On the other hand, it feels like if both decks draw even-to-mediocrely then we come out on top.

Land Disruption and Equipment the Way to go
I ended up feeling like hands with neither Port, Wasteland or Stoneforge should be mulliganed. I didn't do this every time but it does feel like something to keep in mind. Equipment is very strong but Stoneforge is quite vulnerable to Warping Wail / Spacial Contortion so play accordingly. Wrecking their lands with port and waste was what won me most of the games.

Revoker a Necessary Evil
While it often felt unspectacular to draw I was rarely unhappy with my revokers. At worst it would trade with their revoker or mimic. At best it got to name Jitte and Endbringer.

Ancestral

02-21-2016, 08:17 PM

today i play the legacy final tournament ( 8 man all against each other ) so pretty fun afternoon of magic, 1 of the guys was missing so we played 6 rounds of magic and the 7 decks are : ANT, eldrazi stompy, MUD, Sneak and show, bug delver, shardless bug.

this was my first tournament with death and taxes, i decided to put it together because i always liked the deck and a few weeks ago me and my friend playtest a bit miracles (me) against D&T and i though about start playing it too because it was a lot of fun and felt really strong, and i´m going to put it all foil :D so its a work in progress but i feel like its going to be awesome.

I ended up 6-0 and the deck felt really good, i know i did some (a lot ) mistakes but still got it (!! ) Now its time to play more and improve !

this was the list i played, i suspect some of the matchups so i tryied to adjust a bit :

9 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
~
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth

SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Cataclysm
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Ghostly Prison
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Sunlance

so just some thoughts:

- SotL was just a metacall and it felt decent, gave me a clear win against a griselbrand via show and tell i end up plow it in my turn and other than that was a beater and agains bug was good because even if i didn´t caught any brainstorm with vial + SotL it borrow me a few turns before they could remove them and start cantriping.

- i put 1 mangara because of eldrazi/mud matchups but ended up not beeing relevant in none of the 6 rounds.

- ghostly prison, didn´t felt good either, because when i was in LD mode i won against eldrazi (2-1) and MUD (2-0) and dindt need prison, and when i lost a game he was so far head that even prison couldn´t save when i had 3 mana. seems slow to me against this matchups.

if i have some time i can writte more about the 6 rounds, but now its time to sleep.

thanks all for the thread that helped me a lot :)

any questions i´m pleased to answer

iatee

02-21-2016, 09:35 PM

T8'd a 33 person charity tournament today w/ Imperial. 3 Caverns + 3 Wingmare + Crusader main.

My SB was:
2 Warping Wail
2 RiP
3 Ethersworn
1 Containment Priest
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Mangara
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Fireslinger
2 Mirran Crusader

m1 Elves (2-0)

G1 He had a slow start (t1 Arbor Dryad) and I had a t2 SfM. Despite pretty much wiping his board each turn, it was still a game and he eventually had Natural Order w/ 3 creatures in play to Craterhoof for not-quite-enough. He also had 3 Gaea's Cradles, so was pumping out a decent amount of mana. But Jitte was enough in the end.
G2 He Abrupt Decay'ed my SfM when he needed to decay my Jitte - this was because he had a Green Sun's for Rec Sage. I had Containment Priest.

m2 Bug Delver (2-1)

G1 Opponent mulls to 5, has a T1 Delver which flips but doesn't draw another land or cast another spell as my deck plays a its normal game
G2 He has a TNN but I am slightly ahead with a Mirran Crusader + Batterskull in play and some other creatures. He draws Dread of Night which wipes my board save Crusader and eventually gets through with his flyers.
G3 Magus through Cavern while he's tapped out pretty much ends the game

m3 Eldrazi (0-2) - vs old school NY pro

G1 Keep a hand with no 1 drops, he t1 Chalices and I draw into my one drops. T2 Thought Knot is 'okay', T3 Endbringer is too much.
G2 Again, no 1 drops, not a great hand but lots of land disruption with wasteland + 2 port, and Flickerwisp. I can stop him from doing anything for a while. He T1 chalices again, I draw into Aether Vial t2 - had it been in my opening hand I definitely win this game. Eventually I have a Revoker + Batterskull in play, Magus in hand, he has a Thought Knot + Endbringer + Ratchet Bomb. I equip Batterskull to Revoker, he Ratchet Bombs to destroy his own Chalice, then Gut Shots my Revoker, then next turn plays another Chalice - and I draw into a StP. I coulda won with the same cards I drew if they were in a slightly different order. Still don't think it's a bad matchup FWIW.

m4 Storm (2-0) vs a local player 'Jon Finkel' (event was for his charity)

G1 on the play Mom -> Revoker for LED -> Wingmare -> Wingmare while he does nothing relevant.
G2 mull to 6, keep Wasteland, Thalia, Warping Wail, Rest in Peace, Recruiter, something else irrelevant - scry RiP to the bottom, draw a Plateau for t2 Thalia, draw an Ethersworn Canonist, hold up Warping Wail for the rest of the game.

m5 Reanimator (2-1)

G1 on the draw I kept a decent hand with two Karakas + one other land, he t2 Grave Titans. My first StP gets FoW'd, draw into another just in time to not die. I lose the game because I choose to Lotus Petal a Karakas to play my SfM around Daze. Daze would just mean I lose, so I'm not sure it was wrong, but he goes Iona -> Griselbrand and Reanimates my Mother of Runes and I don't have enough mana/life to deal with everything - I woulda if I had that second Karakas in hand.
G2 I have RiP but he t1 Inkwell Leviathans. I manage to outrace w/ Mirran Crusader + SoFi.
G3 He mulls and keeps a rough 6 with Lotus Petal as his only mana. I have RiP, Containment Priest and Mangara lock before he can do anything.

m6 ID w/ Rug Delver

T8 - Storm/Shardless/Jund/RUG Delver/Grixis Control/Me/Fish/Eldrazi

t8 vs a friend on Jund (1-2)

G1 StP his Bob, double Wasteland him and he doesn't draw into any more lands.
G2 I have relevant cards (RiP, WW for DRS, Magus) but I think I may have sequenced them poorly, I shoulda saved my RiP for later in the game instead of playing it as Abrupt Decay bait. He decays it and out values me.
G3 I'm ahead with a bunch of creatures in play vs Goyf/Bloodbraid including Mom, Magus, Revoker, Mirran Crusader, and he's down to 9 life. (He does have Forest+Swamp and two Grove/Mountains). He draws Golgari Charm to semi-wipe my board, but I'm still gonna win next turn if he doesn't draw a burn spell as I have Crusader + Jitte on board and he's at 5 now. Draws Punishing Fire, wipes my board in one turn.

Finals was Fish vs Jund, Jund won. I woulda been pretty happy w/ any of the matchups in the T8 except Jund.

I think I'm going to go down to 2 Flickerwisps main indefinitely. While it's great with Recruiter, Cavern of Souls is a more powerful and reliable card for Imperial and I think 3 Cavern is more important than 3 Flickerwisp. I also think I probably won't play Pia and Kiran next week in Philly, as much as I love that card. I've won a bunch of matches with it over time and it's the most fun card in the deck but it's probably not the right choice for serious tournaments. Other than that I was pretty happy with my SB - I like having the ability to go 3 Mirran Crusader post-board.

GrimoirePath

02-21-2016, 09:42 PM

Played to a meh finish at SCG louisville today. Im very new to D&T, so I didnt feel bad about my 3-4 finish (especially since I got exactly one turn each game against ANT) but wanted to quickly mention Eldrazi.

Basically, I lost in two games, the second being much closer than the first, with my OP left at two life and myself unable to charge through. We played a just-for-fun game afterwards, and it was close but I pulled off the win. Jitte was huge, and i misplayed during the competitive rounds in game two when I could have cast Mystic and didnt, and then lost her to a Thought Knot Seer which plucked her from my hand.

Mana denial didnt come on fast enough for me, even when i ported lands, etc. Flickerwisp on the chalice then equipped with Jitte was great.

GrimoirePath

02-23-2016, 04:04 PM

Bosque

02-23-2016, 04:23 PM

Finn

02-23-2016, 04:46 PM

So I am a total noob with DnT, and as i mentioned above, I got crushed by ANT, only getting one turn each game. I was kicking around ideas trying to figure out how to survive their nut draw post board, and seeing as our hate is all two drops (Thalia, canonist, rest in peace, revoker) with maybe the exception of a chalice on zero for petals and LED, I was wondering if a Healing Salve might not be a decent sideboard card. My thinking is that its a one drop that can be cast in response to Tendrils of Agony. Basically, the opponent will build a storm count of ten and then play tendrils. If we Salve in response, we gain three life, and live until the next turn while their hand is depleted.

Im just trying to think of a one drop that saves us until we get online and overwhelm them with taxation.

So this is a question that comes up from time to time. The short answer to your concern is that your ANT opponent got exceptionally lucky against you and you can get away with just doing nothing. ANT does not go off properly on turn 1 very often. Your opponent probably knew that letting you get to two lands was trouble for him, so he pushed it and apparently succeeded. If your opponent does not know you are playing D+T, you can start by trying to hide this fact on turn 1. Don't play a Plains if you can help it. Maybe start with Cavern of Souls and name Goblin! Or just lay down a Wasteland. Or motion that you have a response to his Ponder and make like you are considering Force of Will. I do that kind of thing all the time, and it occasionally pays off.

Myself, I have never bothered with any kind of turn 1 or turn 0 anti-ANT hate simply because it is too narrow. Legacy hate tends to work best when it is very broad because of the overwhelming variety of decks that are out there. That is especially true of D+T since it is based upon incremental advantage in general. That said, I have been packing a single Chalice of the Void for Elves for over a year now, and that definitely comes in against ANT (not that I even play much these days).

Don't play Healing Salve. If you truly want a card for this, try Mindbreak Trap.

GrimoirePath

02-23-2016, 06:54 PM

Thanks for the pointers. Haha, i know that salve is a weak ass card, i was just scraping for something thats one white and instant. Mindbreak is a great idea. I formerly was playing lands, and its so easy to get several lands and a mox down and to drop a sphere.

Ancestral

02-23-2016, 08:19 PM

So this is a question that comes up from time to time. The short answer to your concern is that your ANT opponent got exceptionally lucky against you and you can get away with just doing nothing. ANT does not go off properly on turn 1 very often. Your opponent probably knew that letting you get to two lands was trouble for him, so he pushed it and apparently succeeded. If your opponent does not know you are playing D+T, you can start by trying to hide this fact on turn 1. Don't play a Plains if you can help it. Maybe start with Cavern of Souls and name Goblin! Or just lay down a Wasteland. Or motion that you have a response to his Ponder and make like you are considering Force of Will. I do that kind of thing all the time, and it occasionally pays off.

Myself, I have never bothered with any kind of turn 1 or turn 0 anti-ANT hate simply because it is too narrow. Legacy hate tends to work best when it is very broad because of the overwhelming variety of decks that are out there. That is especially true of D+T since it is based upon incremental advantage in general. That said, I have been packing a single Chalice of the Void for Elves for over a year now, and that definitely comes in against ANT (not that I even play much these days).

Don't play Healing Salve. If you truly want a card for this, try Mindbreak Trap.

i would agree, if worries you too much turn 1 kill , mindbreak trap its way to go, i thought about that too if my local meta becomes more ANT oriented, since not only (possibly) prevents turn 1 kill but give us more resilience after a massacre or DoN.

but talking about elfs, i´m going to play BOM this weekend and i was in MKM madrid too a saw a lot of elves players, if i consider a bit more slots for this matchups wich are the best cards for this? chalice prove to be good enough to stick with a 1 of ?

iatee

02-23-2016, 11:02 PM

Looks like someone made Eldrazi Displacer work:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378056#online

Cwoj

02-23-2016, 11:28 PM

Looks like someone made Eldrazi Displacer work:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/378056#online

That was me. Only drew it once against burn in that league, 3/3 body was fine and the ability never came up. No idea if it is any good still

iatee

02-23-2016, 11:34 PM

Ah that's a shame. How was your sideboard and what were your matches?

Sandro95

02-24-2016, 12:28 PM

Maybe start with Cavern of Souls and name Goblin![/cards].

I remember one time I was on Goblins & lead with Cavern on Merfolk because I thought my opponent was on belcher. Turns out he was on BUG Delver! Good times! ;)

Marungo

02-24-2016, 02:57 PM

For what it's worth, we wreck ANT all the time. Yes sometimes, we just lose, but most times we get a turn 2 to mess with them.

Yeah for what it's worth I disagree with this. Main deck we have 1 card they care about and post board yes we get a ton of pieces and sweet stuff but they have massacre which lots of times you just can't play around, and sometimes dread of night or bounce cards like echoing truth. I'm not saying I've never won or that I don't know what I'm doing in the matchup, I just disagree with your assessment that we "wreck" ANT. I think overall they're favored

Bosque

02-24-2016, 03:31 PM

Fair enough, I didn't mean to imply it's a 12 Post vs Miracles type of situation because it isn't. I meant that sometimes we get the cards that make life difficult for them and it works, but sometimes they get a good hand and we get nothing and they win. For what it's worth I've won at least 2/3 of my games against ANT though, and I'm pretty terrible at this game.

In addition to Thalia, Revoker is a perfectly relevant mainboard card in the match (on LED), so is Flickerwisp out of vial on their turn to disable land for a turn, many folks are running Vryn Wingmare in the main, and Port and Wasteland can give you time to attack and win. Post board you're right they get more hate that can ruin us.

iatee

02-24-2016, 04:02 PM

Marungo

02-24-2016, 04:23 PM

We feel helpless when they have T2 wins on the play, but they feel pretty helpless when they are on the draw g1 and have to face a T2 Thalia. The match-up is probably about 50-50, and the dice roll is *very* heavy for the aforementioned reasons.

In the dark? Sure it's 50-50, but if they know we're DnT then I think they're a little favored like 60-40. Even on the draw they just cabal therapy Thalia and we lose. Plus the odds we have t2 Thalia are not really that high. Game 1 is not our best game. We have a better shot g2 or G3 and even then I'm not overconfident. I'm not saying it's an awful matchup, but it's not one of the ones I'm happy to run into because much of the time it's just a question of "do they have it?"

iatee

02-25-2016, 10:11 AM

Colin

02-25-2016, 10:22 AM

It works the other way around too though - if you know they're on ANT g1, you don't keep Vial, SFM, Mom, StP, Port, Plains, Wasteland - a very balanced hand vs fair creature decks, and one that you'd blind keep. It is frustrating to lose matches where you had zero ability to interact and I think those losses 'feel worse' and you remember them. But for better or worse that's an accepted part of the format and it's not like Thalia+Wasteland doesn't create those situations for other people.

on the play against ANT this is a very keepable hand? plains->vial->start porting and vialing threats, wasteland them etc. ANT is good, but typically needs lands during their main phase to function and isnt drawing into many of them (16 in the main?) I'd snap keep this hand.

Marungo

02-25-2016, 10:26 AM

It works the other way around too though - if you know they're on ANT g1, you don't keep Vial, SFM, Mom, StP, Port, Plains, Wasteland - a very balanced hand vs fair creature decks, and one that you'd blind keep. It is frustrating to lose matches where you had zero ability to interact and I think those losses 'feel worse' and you remember them. But for better or worse that's an accepted part of the format and it's not like Thalia+Wasteland doesn't create those situations for other people.

That's fair. You can't prepare for everything and of course advanced knowledge on what the opponent is playing is always positive. I think that if both players know what the other is playing ANT is favored, if both are in the dark they're favored, and if ANT is aware alone then they're favored. So I think most scenarios they're favored overall. Again I think it's winnable but not one of our "good" matchups. I think overall it's only slightly in their favor.

iatee

02-25-2016, 10:52 AM

on the play against ANT this is a very keepable hand? plains->vial->start porting and vialing threats, wasteland them etc. ANT is good, but typically needs lands during their main phase to function and isnt drawing into many of them (16 in the main?) I'd snap keep this hand.

If you're porting then you have basically no clock unless you draw well, and your disruption in the meantime is limited to one land. If you're playing 4 Thalia 3 Revoker X Wingmare as the really relevant cards - you don't have a great chance at drawing into one of those within just 3-4 turns, but you have a fantastic chance at drawing into one w/ 6 new cards + scry + further draws. Plus a StP means you're already playing with a 6 card hand. The only appealing thing the hand has is a Vial and I would consider keeping only if they mulliganed.

iatee

02-25-2016, 11:01 AM

But I would be interested to hear if other people also disagreed, FWIW.

iatee

02-25-2016, 11:08 AM

Also, for people playing Imperial Taxes, Recruiters count as +3 relevant draws for both keep and mull, but are somewhat better for the initial opening hand because there's a guaranteed Vial.

Marungo

02-25-2016, 12:41 PM

But I would be interested to hear if other people also disagreed, FWIW.

100% agree. Discussion and consensus are the best way to better understanding and getting better

GrimoirePath

02-25-2016, 01:26 PM

Is surgical extraction a reasonable sideboard card for ANT? It could also come into play against Lands or other decks where StP gets boarded out.

Ancestral

02-25-2016, 01:49 PM

That's fair. You can't prepare for everything and of course advanced knowledge on what the opponent is playing is always positive. I think that if both players know what the other is playing ANT is favored, if both are in the dark they're favored, and if ANT is aware alone then they're favored. So I think most scenarios they're favored overall. Again I think it's winnable but not one of our "good" matchups. I think overall it's only slightly in their favor.

I Have less expirience playing this matchup from D&T side but Back when i played ant the matchups Always seemed in D&T favour. Its Always close but thalia and wingmare are almost unwinnable and revoker its Pretty good, sometimes they just Have it but oh well, still more uncommon than us cant find interaction i would assume.

After board they Have massacre/DoN maybe a couple CoV but if they bring all that they dilude the deck and we Have multiple hate from diferent angles. In my point of view, D&T has an edge here.

Marungo

02-25-2016, 02:09 PM

Is surgical extraction a reasonable sideboard card for ANT? It could also come into play against Lands or other decks where StP gets boarded out.

It's certainly a good card but you gotta be able to know what to hit and read a situation appropriately. Sometimes they'll go off casting one spell at a time and it's mediocre. It's not my flavor of sideboard card but is it viable and likely good? Yes.

TLK

02-25-2016, 03:02 PM

Played the Dark & Taxes version at my LGS last night, and was a bit disappointed. I think adding a second color weakens the deck, as it makes it much more susceptible to Wasteland.

Round 1 I beat Esper Blade/Thopter Foundry combo. This was fairly easy. 2-0

Round 2 I got demolished by Shardless BUG. I mean, this wasn't even close. Is this typically a hard matchup? Seemed miserable. 0-2

Round 3 I got unlucky with mana against Punishing Jund (Punishing Fire seems like a nightmare for this deck). 1-2

Dropped after that. One thing to note was that Flickerwisp seemed horrible all night. Sided it out in every match. Just never seemed relevant.

Jonathan Alexander

02-25-2016, 03:03 PM

I Have less expirience playing this matchup from D&T side but Back when i played ant the matchups Always seemed in D&T favour. Its Always close but thalia and wingmare are almost unwinnable and revoker its Pretty good, sometimes they just Have it but oh well, still more uncommon than us cant find interaction i would assume.

Beating one Sphere effect is easy. It slows the Storm player down, but not by much. Less than two full turns. Two Sphere effects are very hard to beat though. Revoker can be annoying but is lower impact than Sphere effects overall because it allows the Storm player to continue sculpting.

After board they Have massacre/DoN maybe a couple CoV but if they bring all that they dilude the deck and we Have multiple hate from diferent angles. In my point of view, D&T has an edge here.

It's not actually true that the Storm deck gets diluted. Usually discard gets swapped for more direct cards like Massacre and Dread of Night, as you pointed out. You also don't have different angles of attack. Apart from Canonist, all you do only interacts with the Storm player's mana, and some of it is very indirect (Revoker when they don't have LED) or inefficient (Port).

I get I am saying this as a person who has been playing Dread of Night ever since 2012, but I feel very confident when I'm on the Storm side of the matchup. In the last 2 1/2 years of playing Storm, I can only remember one loss against Death & Taxes, although I do think there was at least one more. Especially with Dread the matchup is really good, but it is worse if the Storm player runs Massacre instead.

Regarding Surgical, I don't think people should board it against Storm. I have won way more games because my opponent had Surgical than I have lost to it.

Colin

02-25-2016, 03:55 PM

If you're porting then you have basically no clock unless you draw well, and your disruption in the meantime is limited to one land. If you're playing 4 Thalia 3 Revoker X Wingmare as the really relevant cards - you don't have a great chance at drawing into one of those within just 3-4 turns, but you have a fantastic chance at drawing into one w/ 6 new cards + scry + further draws. Plus a StP means you're already playing with a 6 card hand. The only appealing thing the hand has is a Vial and I would consider keeping only if they mulliganed.

A couple of points, you have 2 creatures to guarantee your turn 2-3 vial threats (i start swinging with mom in this match), you have a port for their first fetch to basic, you have a wasteland for the underground sea they probably have. I consider live draws as thalia, revoker,, 1-3 flex slots, port and wasteland. In that order FYI. On your first draw, that's 30% to draw an interactive card. I like those odds, even if I'm only swinging for 1 or 2 a turn for a few turns.

I'd put money down this hand is 60% at least against storm.

I'd like to hear other's breakdown of this though?

iatee

02-25-2016, 04:26 PM

Yeah you're definitely attacking w/ Mom game 1, but realistically that's 4 points of damage over the course of the game. It helps, but if you don't draw another real creature, Mom+SfM beats aren't gonna do it, and Batterskull will require not porting them for a turn, after they've presumably had some time to set up.

I don't consider another Port or Wasteland live draws, and especially without a serious clock in place. If you keep that hand, there's no way you're happy to see a Wasteland as your next draw. They can fetch multiple basics and you're not double porting until you have 4 lands. 2nd Port+Wasteland aren't even interactive cards for the next few turns because you already have the effect in your hand. (Exception would be if they have duals in hand or fetch for U Sea twice.)

And even if you give yourself 30% chance to draw an interactive card - with 6 cards + scry, you have a much larger than 30% shot at a hand with 1+ cards that can win upon resolution. Getting a Thalia alone is almost 40% if you count the scry as a draw.

iatee

02-25-2016, 04:42 PM

It's not actually true that the Storm deck gets diluted. Usually discard gets swapped for more direct cards like Massacre and Dread of Night, as you pointed out. You also don't have different angles of attack. Apart from Canonist, all you do only interacts with the Storm player's mana, and some of it is very indirect (Revoker when they don't have LED) or inefficient (Port).

Regarding Surgical, I don't think people should board it against Storm. I have won way more games because my opponent had Surgical than I have lost to it.

Warping Wail is actually another angle of attack and as a SB card is applicable far outside of the Storm matchup. (Partly due to this card I predict a pretty rough near future for Storm - the new Eldrazi deck is just a much better MUD.)

If a D+T player has Surgical, I think they should almost definitely bring it in. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it gives you a better chance than a lot of creatures or STP. There's a difference between 'This card doesn't reliably beat Storm.' and 'This card is bad against Storm.'

Colin

02-25-2016, 04:46 PM

Something else to consider: if they are able to make land drops outside of the basic you are porting and a nonbasic that you can wasteland, then they are not drawing live either?

I'd still keep the hand that guarantee's me 2+ turns then mull to 6 or 5 and run a risk. But that's just how I play the deck.

iatee

02-25-2016, 04:55 PM

I think the new mulligan rule seals the deal for me, as you're less likely to be mulling into oblivion.

Jonathan Alexander

02-25-2016, 05:32 PM

Warping Wail is actually another angle of attack and as a SB card is applicable far outside of the Storm matchup. (Partly due to this card I predict a pretty rough near future for Storm - the new Eldrazi deck is just a much better MUD.)

If a D+T player has Surgical, I think they should almost definitely bring it in. It doesn't guarantee a win, but it gives you a better chance than a lot of creatures or STP. There's a difference between 'This card doesn't reliably beat Storm.' and 'This card is bad against Storm.'

Oh, Warping Wail is certainly a great card against Storm for decks that mostly interact through permaments. But I don't think this is the place to discuss the Eldrazi deck? I also don't think it works very well in the context of Death & Taxes vs. Storm, mainly because you naturally can't cast it as easily as they can (your lands tap for one mana each) and your other interaction eats into both players' mana, i.e. you have a hard time casting it after using a Wasteland while you have Thalia on board.

I also disagree with the statement that Surgical is better than most creatures, although it is less bad than Swords. Note how I said that I have won more games because of Surgical, not despite Surgical. The number of games where Surgical contributes to a win is very, very low.

I agree with your last sentence, but that's not what I'm saying. No single card beats Storm on its own (okay, maybe Slaughter Games effects against some lists). That's not what I'm expecting of a card. What I'm expecting of a card it that it pulls its weight by buying turns consistently. Surgical does not do that. I have played a lot of Storm, beating Surgical Extraction (and Mindbreak Trap, for that matter) is an afterthought - you find a winning line, then tweak it to beat that card.

I'm definitely willing to discuss this more, but I feel like this is derailing the thread. Feel free to pm if you want to discuss it further and also feel it doesn't belong here. If you think it does, I don't mind talking here.

iatee

02-25-2016, 06:15 PM

I think Surgical vs ANT and Warping Wail in the D+T sb are pretty on-topic subjects!

Against D+T storm players often feel confident going off on T1 or T2 without a Probe/Discard effect - those are the kind of hands that can lose to a well-timed Surgical. You're a fan of Dread of Night and say that D+T is easy because we only play one-dimensional hate - this is hate from another angle that isn't stopped by Dread of Night.

Honestly, I think Surgical is a pretty bad card overall and I never play it. But I still would bring it in 100% of the time if I did.

Wasteland

02-26-2016, 04:23 AM

If you want a different angle, just board in your rest in peaces... They shut down completely their past in flames, which hurts them quite much, since they can only win via ad nauseam / goblin-tokens... In my opinion rip is just much more better then extraction for D&T in general, except if you play vs theese t1 oops-all-spells crap-piles or perhaps reanimate with an extreme fast start...

Jonathan Alexander

02-26-2016, 06:42 AM

If I go off blind turn one or two, I always go for Ad Nauseam rather than Past in Flames, unless I have a line that beats Surgical (Infernal into Petition, different rituals). The potential presence of Surgical actually does more here than Surgical itself.
Rest in Peace is also only mildly annoying to me as a Storm player. The effect is much better than Surgical though, and it is a card I would board over random 3-drop creatures or vanilla like Serra Avenger.
Warping Wail is the effect you want, but I'm not sure it's the card you want. It is very clunky, especially if you have Sphere effects. Nothing worse than having your opponent go off through Thalia and not being able to cast your counter. Please note that I can only speak for the Storm matchup here, I'm not sure how good of an idea it is to have the card in D&T in general.
In general, if you want to be able to beat Storm, you have to start with game one; you can't rely on your sideboard to fix the matchup. You are certainly capable of fixing it with your sideboard, but I think that just takes up too much space. If you manage to build a sideboard that has like ten actual good cards vs. Storm while branching out into interaction in forms other than white creatures (preferably not creatures at all, because Massacre), then you will find yourself with a decent matchup.
But if you're serious about beating Storm, I think it starts with maxing out on Vryn Wingmares, I'm not sure how many of you guys do that.

nevilshute

02-26-2016, 06:59 AM

Just thought I'd chime in here as I've played both decks a lot (mostly storm). I feel, regardless of new tech like Wail, that Storm is just slightly favored. I see a lot of (newer) storm pilots bemoan how they just can't beat D&T and I can't help but feel that it's down to inexperience / being overly confirmation biased on too small a sample size (i.e. you've faced D&T 3 times at your LGS in the past month and lost all 3 = it's impossible to beat!).

That said I'm never bummed about playing the D&T side of things. I feel like both decks can give each other a real game. If both decks draw a medium hand I think it's fairly even. If both decks draw a mediocre-to-poor hand I think D&T is favored. If both decks draw their best hands then Storm wins every time.

Finn

02-26-2016, 09:18 AM

Heya, this is an interesting conversation.

@Jonathan Alexander: I really appreciate your honest input. I am just going to add that Death and Taxes does not and never has had a killer "gotcha" card against storm or really any opponent (well, one time I somehow got Thalia out against Belcher and Wastelanded his one land in the deck - that was funny) But the point is that we are glad to take any disruption we can get because each opponent is a puzzle. Each bit of disruption is a piece of that puzzle. That is how this deck (and no other deck ever) works. It is very hard to appreciate until you have piloted it for awhile or maybe watched a lot of video coverage. That is why the deck was around for so long with so few people playing it. That is the reason you would get dismissive reactions from opponents followed by rage when you beat them. I am not accusing you of inexperience. In fact you clearly know what you are talking about. This is just something EVERYONE has to get past to be able to evaluate the deck.

Anyway, I have faced ANT so many times. I have lost with Canonist still on the table. I have won through two Dread of Night with two Revokers and a Rest in Peace. I have seen the life gain from Jitte make the difference. I have been the victim of not getting a turn in two straight. So, what I can tell you is that *everything* matters.

Jonathan Alexander

02-26-2016, 09:44 AM

iatee

02-26-2016, 10:35 AM

While you may not feel as pressured to squeak in an early win because you have Dread of Night to draw into, Storm players that have targeted instants as the exit plan are going to be more pressured to go off before we get into a Mom+Thalia or Vial on 2 + Thalia + Karakas type situation. I think it is 100% correct to go off on T1 or T2 without knowing DnT's hand because the chances of a Mindbreak Trap or Surgical are *so low*. And because it's correct to ignore the 2% chance they have one of those cards, it's also correct for the DnT player to play them if they have them. (Again, I'm not arguing that they're actually *worth* a spot in the SB.) Even if it only beats 30% of Storm's T1/T2 kills, it still has the potential to win the game on its own. Even if they see it in your hand, if the Storm player is 'playing around it', then it is having some taxation effect, and buying a marginal amount of time.

And let's be honest - if a Storm player wants to have a +75% win rate vs DnT, they could play 4 Dread of Nights in their SB. If *any* deck that plays black wants to rarely lose to DnT they can do that. I think people like Jon who play multiple copies are not exaggerating when they say they have a very favorable win %. By playing Dread of Nights over more general SB cards, they're giving up %s elsewhere, so not everyone does it.

Curious to hear if Jon or Finn would keep the Vial+Plains+Port+Wasteland+Mom+SfM+StP hand on the play vs ANT. Or I guess, from Jon's perspective, you get to choose whether your opponent mulligans that hand.

Colin

02-26-2016, 11:32 AM

Curious to hear if Jon or Finn would keep the Vial+Plains+Port+Wasteland+Mom+SfM+StP hand on the play vs ANT. Or I guess, from Jon's perspective, you get to choose whether your opponent mulligans that hand.

I'm hoping the same, I feel like we're having a conversation in a void here

Bhara?

Finn

02-26-2016, 11:43 AM

Mulligan if I am playing 4 Revokers and 4 Thalia in the main. If that is a postboard 7, mulligan no matter what.

Fry

02-26-2016, 09:07 PM

I would definitely mull that hand, it doesn't really do much of anything, at least not against storm decks in general. There's no taxer, no revoker, no cannonist, nothing that really hates against them. Waste and Port are decent, but Storm doesn't need land to make mana and go off, so they help a little, but they don't do nearly enough without any back up hate.

Jonathan Alexander

02-26-2016, 09:32 PM

You should probably mull because I am happy to play against that kind of hand. That being said, if your deck only has Thalia and Revoker (no Wingmares, Canonists, whatever) I don't think you can expect much more from a mulligan. By keeping you at least get to gamble on your opponent not making sufficient land drops.
This is exactly why I think the matchup favours Storm though; even your above average hands are not very good. But take this all with a grain of salt, I have only played the matchup from the Storm perspective.

Luca Grease

02-27-2016, 03:20 PM

so with all the hype about Eldrazi porting into legacy and people scrambling to include extra removal in their sideboards, what are your thoughts on Intrepid Hero? Kills all of their big dudes, and would also be pretty good against Show and Tell, Reanimator, and Knight of the Reliquary decks. The real question is, would it also be a reasonable inclusion against tarmogoyf decks? The one toughness stinks, but I've always felt that big creatures like Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary can be a problem for DnT... Thoughts?

Stuuch

02-27-2016, 04:08 PM

Mangara allready does the same thing and is a better card overall so there is no need for the hero.

Luca Grease

02-27-2016, 04:37 PM

Mangara allready does the same thing and is a better card overall so there is no need for the hero.

Yes, I had thought about that, and I am in fact still playing 1 Mangara of Corondor maindeck, which has never disappointed me. However, let's not ignore the fact that hero can just use his ability repeatedly without needing Karakas and a ton of extra mana or vial on 3 to re-cast it. Against aggro decks filled with huge creatures, that can make a huge difference. However, I do agree that Mangara is a better overall card and I might just decide to go back up to 2 maindeck copies.

redtwister

02-28-2016, 04:13 PM

Went 4-3-1 at Philadelphia SCG Open. I was staying in at X-3 as long as possible, but then I went 3-3-1 and played until my partner (who was grading papers in our hotel room on a Saturday night because teachers rock) was ready for dinner.

Creatures 26
4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mangara of Corondor

Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa’s Jitte

Lands 23
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Kor Haven
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan port
4 Wasteland
10 Plains

2 Containment Priest
2 Council’s Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Path to Exile
1 Warping Wail
1 Enlightened Tutor

Card notes:
Ratchet Bomb was not needed with everything else I ran. Absolute Law, Seal of Cleansing, Grafdigger's Cage or Mindbreak Trap would have been better. Given what I face, it will be Cage or Trap.

Warping Wail was amazing. I got to live the DnT dreams. Warping Wail countering Reanimate FTW. Warping Wail to kill Metalworker. Warping Wail to counter Terminus. Warping Wail countering Massacre. This card is money.

Kor Haven would have saved me in games against Reanimator, but I kept drawing Karakas. However, Kor did allow me to cast Warping Wail 1x, which was the point. Ultimately, it was here to mess over Lands and Reanimator and I felt okay because there were a fair amount of both. Will I keep it in? Not sure.

Brimaz, King of Oreskos is the card I HATE the most. I know it has good matches, but it hates me and I hate it back. Never again. Mirran Crusader and Serra Avenger forever!!!!!

Matches
Round 1 vs. Merfolk 2-0
This match was never really close. Game 1, I had vial, he did not, and I was able to overwhelm him with Serra Avengers. Game 2, He has Mutavault, Aether Vial, and Island, but I Wasteland his Mutavault and Revoker his Aether Vial and beat him to death.

Round 2 vs. Storm 1-2
I played a tight game 1 and then made crucial mistakes games 2 and 3. Game 2, I knew I screwed up immediately. I had Vial on 2, Revoker and Brimaz in hand, had him at 6 and if I vial in Brimaz, I kill him. However, Revoker stops his only out, Lion's Eye Diamond, but I was not paying attention and auto-ticked Vial to 3. Needless to say, I lose to LED. Game 3, I mulligan to 5, but have Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Rest in Peace in hand with 2 mana on the board and no other lands in hand and I have to choose which one to cast. I played RiP, thinking I would want that immediately and then cast Thalia next turn, which was exactly wrong. Talked with Medea and AntiquatedNotion (MTGSalvation names) and they confirmed it. So I lost this match entirely on my own mistakes.

Round 3 vs. MUD 2-0
Played a great guy I have played before at Eternal Extravaganza. Fun games, but a fast set. Not sure I needed it, but I killed Metalworker with WW game 2. I got the Mangara Lock game 1, which was super sweet.

Round 4 vs. Shardless BUG 0-2
This should be better, but he has the nut game 1 and I have a soft hand and flood out, while he gets Liliana of the Veil. Game 2, I mulligan to 5, keeping 4 lands and StP. He does turn 2 discard and I lose Rishadan Port and StP. I should have played Port turn 1 to protect it, instead of Wasteland, but otherwise it was bad. I made a game of it, but never really found any gas. I wasn't quite out of it either game and he had to hit exact answers each game to my weak board, which he did. I feel like this was just variance.

Round 5 vs. MUD 0-2
Because I can't play MUD in my first 5 games often enough. This is three major tournaments in a row with at least 2 games versus MUD in my first 5 rounds. Unlike the first round where I found all the important cards, this time I can't find anything. Game 2 mulligan into oblivion. Nothing exceptional, for better or worse, in my game.

Round 6 vs. vs. No show
I beat this player mercilessly. The first game was over as soon as the round started and ten minutes later I won the round.

So now I am 3-3 and every game counts because 6-3 might get me in.

Round 7 vs. Miracles 1-1
I played a very tight game 1, keeping him off of his usual. The guy seems a little unusual because he isn't really making efficient use of every Top activation, but okay. Game 2, I have a weakish hand, but not unkeepable (no vial, which came back to bit me in the butt), with Mom and Thalia and Warping Wail. He gets a Jace lock that I can't quite get through, but I get an opening where he still doesn't have Counterbalance, but he does have 2 mana and Jace is on 1, so I cast Wail to make a a token, swing in with the token and he flashes in Containment Priest and kills it on the block. I will end up severely regretting this, even though killing Jace would allow me to play Mirran Crusader and Mangara of Corondor, so I don't think it was bad. Turn 0 of time, he miracles Entreat the Angels for 5 angels to kill me to force the draw. Warping Wail would have given me a chance to stop that and win and had my clock awareness been stronger, I would have ignored Jace and kept up mana to Wail Entreat as his only viable wincon. Then I did not think to ask for a concession so one of us could go on.

Round 8 vs. Reanimator 2-1
Game 1 was simply him not finding answers to Karakas. Game 2, he gets Archetype of Endurance on the board and I have exactly zero pressure. AoE is a very strong creature against us. Game 3 is sheer beauty. He puts AoE in the yard, I Warping Wail his Reanimate, Wasteland his Underground Sea, and cast Rest in Peace. Now, the game is not over. I have only a Phyrexian Revoker, so he has time. I find Karakas and then I get to do something I have wanted to do for a long time. He plays Verdant Catacombs and passes. I play Pithing Needle and he actually allows it to resolve, I call Catacombs and he never finds a red source to burn my threats. He said at the end he literally did not think I would call his land. His friends gave him a lot of (hilarious) grief for that fail. I have to say, I played My Karakas' very carefully.

I really felt like, except for the Storm match, and maybe that Warping Wail decision in the Miracles match, I played very cleanly and made good decisions. Outside those two games, none of my plays would have made a difference in winning versus losing from what I could see and in fact, I made games out of very bad mulligans to 5 in two of them. My best big Legacy tournament so far.

EDIT:
Great to see Medea and Gary and meet AntiquatedNotion and his friend (sorry, I am the absolute worst with names). Saw a ton of people I know and met some new people. As always, big events are wonderful and the DnT community is really awesome. Studderingdave, we'll keep an eye out for you next time, shame we didn't meet.

Stevestamopz

02-28-2016, 06:50 PM

Iatee is this you? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99298

This list absolutely reeks of you :tongue:

Ancestral

02-28-2016, 08:01 PM

Actually, this is exactly my point, although I think you got it across better. Every card has to matter, and I think Surgical Extraction is too low impact; in fact lower impact than most equipment, creature and even land.
Also, the bolded part is super important and something players should always keep in mind in all combo matchups ever. Combo decks are so focused and proactively powerful, they always have room for interaction; thus, they can beat any single card you throw their way. Multiple cards, however, become exponentially harder to deal with.

thats the multplie angles of attack i was talking about, small pieces of disruption, and RIP helps, canonist survive dread of night, revoker too, massacre sometimes can play around, i still think its a close matchup but i understand you opinion and i didn´t play this matchup for that many times like most of the people here for sure, so with more test can help a little more, i hope.

iatee

02-28-2016, 10:27 PM

Iatee is this you? http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99298

This list absolutely reeks of you :tongue:

Ha yeah, that was me. The other Imperial Taxes player in d2 was my friend who was running my list w/ minor changes. I'll post a write-up later.

Koke_MTG

02-29-2016, 10:04 AM

So after a 4-1 (2nd place) two weeks ago at my LGS weekly Legacy tournament with 34 players, this past friday I made a 4-1-0, winning the 22 players weekly tournament with a classic list mine:

MAINDECK (62):

4 x Mother of Runes
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
2 x Serra Avenger
4 x Flickerwisp
4 x Vryn Wingmare
2 x Mirran Crusader

4 x Aether Vial
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Batterskull
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
1 x Umezawa's Jitte

4 x Wasteland
4 x Rishadan Port
7 x Plains
4 x Flagstones of Trokair
3 x Karakas
1 x Cavern of Souls

SIDEBOARD (15):

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Mirran Crusader
3 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Sword of War and Peace
3 x Rest in Peace

Facing this time against:

R1: Golddigger changing DTT by Impulse (1-1 // 0-1-0):

In game 1 I tried to elude their removals until he cleaned the field with a Supreme Verdict and played a Jace, the Mind Sculptor the turn after. I had no answer. He started looking my topdeck and I conceded. I didn't have much more to say there and wanted to win the round. Game 2 was pretty similar but this time I was the guy who reset the game with a Cataclysm, destroying 6 of his lands and a Jace, the Mind Sculptor with 7/8 counters. I was waiting the 4th land a couple of turns while my opponent got advantage from his Jace. With the Cataclysm I kept Plains + Vial and my opponent Plains and Pithing Needle (on Vial, played on turn 2). I started drawing more lands and he cannot hold the next 3 creatures I played. In game 3 we were near the time out so I tried to play beatdown because I was the one who had a chance to win, but it wasn't enough.

R2: Infect (2-0 // 1-1-0):

I opened a great hand in game 1 with Umezawa's Jitte included, which won me the game. As game 1, I won through Umezawa's Jitte again in addition to StP, Ethersworn Canonist and a Wasteland to Inkmoth Nexus. I was very lucky this game because he didn't draw enough meat even with an early Sylvan Library in both games.

R3: Sneak & Show (2-0 // 2-1-0):

Game 1 he bet for a slow game. He didn't have the pieces of the combo and I put him a really high clock with Thalia + Wingmare + SoFaI. He only played a Brainstorm. A turn before concede he made a mistake fetching for a Mountain so I could side accordingly to the matchup. In game 2 he kept a very risky hand. He started with Island + double Lotus Petal + Show and Tell + Emrakul. I put a Mirran Crusader and in my turn bounce his Emrakul with Karakas. He conceded instantly.

R4: BG Dark Depths (2-0 // 3-1-0):

I won game 1 through a couple of Tarmogoyf and a DRS racing with a Mirran Crusader, the Batterskull germ token and a couple of Mother of Runes. In game two he didn't have enough time to get the combo off and I won racing him with a couple of flyers and the help of his Dark Confidant.

R5: Jund (2-1 // 4-1-0):

Game 1 was poorly. Typical game you lose by a lucky Hymn to Tourach. When he played it I had Stoneforge Mystic in play with Batterskull, Phyrexian Revoker and 3 lands in hand. He took Revoker and Batterskull. Next turn a Goyf hit the ground. I was going to the topdeck in turn 4... Draw a couple of lands and concede when I was at 5. In game 2 I had the game with Vial + flyers + RiP. He played Pernicious Deed. I played very risky this game and ate it entirely. We had no cards in hand after Deed. He suddenly played a Tarmogoyf and a Sulfur Elemental from the topdeck. I played a Revoker on Liliana of the Veil, equiped him the Batterskull and won game 2 with this. Game 3 was really similar. I had to play around a Deed and Engineered Explosives this game. He played the Sulfur Elemental as well. I killed him with two Jitte counters. After he cleaned the board I played Flickerwisp to Batterskull and could win with this advantage.

Last round was really hard because it was a really hateful Jund list without Dark Confidant and probably even more removal than a classic Jund: Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil, Bolts, Sulfur Elemental...

I couldn't play BoM but even so I could get more conclusions about my actual list for upcoming events.

Right now I don't know if I have to adapt the list to the new metagame as other archetypes do... I think we can win Eldrazi deck "easily" even with Wingmares without the need to play Mangaras or other options. I think Eldrazi deck could be a good point for D&T in reference to face the metagame. I mean, Lands and 4C Loam have a good matchup against them so it is good for us if these archetypes become even more popular. Miracles and Storm probably will have to adapt a bit their lists to the Eldrazi deck. Even it is probably that we stop watching some hateful sideboard cards like Izzet Staticaster on Miracles or Dread of Night/Massacre on Storm, replacing it by Moat and Hurkyl's Recall respectively.

Finn

02-29-2016, 10:58 AM

I don't see a way for these Eldrazi decks to get past Ensnaring Bridge. I think they would need Ulamog or something. I would certainly like some method that did not have to let them land their threats though. And forget reactive answets. They will rip them from your hand. Ghost Quarter?

iatee

02-29-2016, 11:04 AM

It depends on the list. Ratchet Bomb and TKS-your-Bridge are two pretty easy ways for them to beat the card. It is still good against them, just like Magus is, but there aren't any guaranteed ways to punish them when they regularly have T2 Thoughtseize. The fact that it's so hard to punish is one of the most annoying features of the deck, and it's due to the fact that there isn't a history of cards that deal with colorless.

Finn

02-29-2016, 11:14 AM

Not a history of ways to deal with colorless is so true. I could not find a single card. It seems peculiar that they printed no hosers at all with such obviously powerful aggro cards in the set.

redtwister

02-29-2016, 11:18 AM

Congrats on a strong finish, iatee!

From conversations with other DnT folks at the tournament, I feel like as a community nearly all of us were on the verge of Day 2. I threw away my Storm match, but that would have put me at 5-2-1 going into the last round, which would have been a win-and-in. Two other players went 6-3 and just missed getting in. iatee and his friend made Day 2. I think this is a reasonably strong showing for DnT given the uncertain format going in and it shows that DnT is well-positioned.

If you look at the top 32, the only openly bad match was the 1-of Elves, and if Eldrazi is really here and the other bid decks are Miracles, Lands, and Grixis Delver, Elves is going to get worse and Storm probably retains its popularity. Of course, this depends on what adjusting for the Eldrazi decks does to the format and maybe Eldrazi are a stompy blip.

7 Eldrazi
6 Lands
4 Miracles
4 Grixis Delver
2 Infect
2 Storm
1 UR Delver
1 Elves
1 Imperial Painter
1 Burn
1 DnT
1 Maverick
1 BUG Delver

I would not be surprised if the decks in bold are going to dominate the format in the short term. The other decks that made top 32 are obviously viable, but these condition our sideboard choices at big events.

For example, if we are facing Grixis Delver, as much as I want to shore up my deck versus -1/-1 effects, they don't have a lot of discard, especially randomized discard, unlike BUG Dlever, so Wilt-Leaf Liege is actually harder to play than Veteran Armorer, BUT if you look at the Grixis Delver builds, they are so focused on Eldrazi and Lands that they ran virtually no -1/-1 hate for us: only 1(!) Dread of Night in all four builds in Top 32.

Now, WLL may have some amusing applications against Eldrazi ("Sure, I'm very happy to pay the discard cost with this WLL"), and it increases our clock in that match and the mirror, but if BUG is not our main Delver opponent and Grixis Delver is, and they are going light on -1/-1 effects, then we should rethink the best sideboard options.

This is even more interesting if you look at the Day 2 breakdown as a whole:
Colorless Eldrazi – 9
Lands – 8
Miracles – 7
Grixis Delver – 4
U/R Delver – 4
Infect – 4
Enchantress – 3
Storm – 3
Esper Deathblade – 3
Death and Taxes – 3
Imperial Taxes – 2
Burn – 2
Elves – 2
Four-Color Delver – 1
Sultai Delver – 1
MUD – 1
Sultai Depths – 1
Shardless Sultai – 1
Imperial Painter – 1
Esper Mentor – 1
Omni-Tell – 1
Maverick – 1
Sultai Landstill – 1

BUG decks were few (3 total and all entirely different decks), all the Grixis Delver players made Top 32, most of the Eldrazi, Lands, Storm, and Miracles players made Top 32. DnT had 5 decks in Top 64, but only 1 in top 32.

At least for the moment, this is the meta I am inclined to prepare for in tournaments.

iatee

02-29-2016, 11:24 AM

I think it's ultimately because they wanted to push these cards for Standard and don't test for Modern/Legacy. A very strong, easily accessible hoser would ensure that there's no Eldrazi deck in Standard. They might have that hoser sitting around in an upcoming set, but it would have to be *very* strong (easily cast) to be Modern/Legacy playable.

Finn

02-29-2016, 12:01 PM

Hall of gemstone
Green. Hrmph

iatee

02-29-2016, 12:59 PM

I don't believe that works, because there is not a 'color' being replaced.

GrimoirePath

02-29-2016, 01:21 PM

Came across this guy on the gatherer:

Mistmeadow Skulk (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=158690)

Protection from CMC three or higher. Can chump block reality smasher, matter reshaper, oblivion sower, and TKS. Mimic and endless one get by.

iatee

02-29-2016, 01:25 PM

Reality Smasher does 3 damage, as the protection sucks up one, you gain a life, and 4 tramples through. It dies to their removal and doesn't really change a race unless you put a Sword on it. Most of the time it wouldn't be much different from playing a 0/6 wall, since it's too small to change a race on the attack but can't really kill anything but a suicidal Mimic.

GrimoirePath

02-29-2016, 01:30 PM

Finn

02-29-2016, 01:31 PM

Funny card. You actually can't put Batterskull or Sword on it. Only Jitte. Thanks for the angle, Grimoirepath, but this one is not the answer.

iatee

02-29-2016, 01:36 PM

Ha right, yeah, forgot about that when I said it was only good with a Sword.

GrimoirePath

02-29-2016, 01:55 PM

Funny card. You actually can't put Batterskull or Sword on it. Only Jitte. Thanks for the angle, Grimoirepath, but this one is not the answer.

Ah, yes. Well sheeeit. Painters servant and mom?

iatee

02-29-2016, 02:01 PM

Painter's Servant doesn't do enough when they have countless other Sol lands, Mom doesn't protect it from Warping Wail and is a terrible card in the matchup regardless.

redtwister

02-29-2016, 03:32 PM

Eldrazi is worse for Imperial than WW. 4 Serra Avenger + 4 Flickerwisp can race them relatively well, especially if you are flickering Endless One and Chalice of the Void.

It's not an easy match, but it isn't really a bad match. I still think WW is favored slightly.

Wilt-Leaf Liege from the side is also extra-hateful, since it increases our clocks, improves our blocks, and works to get cheated onto the field when targeting Reality Smasher with removal. That said, not convinced it is necessary and if BUG Delver is not a major nemesis, probably not worth it.

iatee

02-29-2016, 04:35 PM

That's crazy talk. If they have T1 Chalice and you don't get a Vial, Serra Avenger isn't a clock at all. Both Flickerwisp and Avenger can't trade for any of their key creatures if necessary. Imperial Taxes has the ability to get an early lock out win - you can't reliably race Reality Smashers with Avengers that sometimes can't even be cast, and can almost never profitably block.

Marungo

02-29-2016, 04:59 PM

So upon doing more testing vs eldrazi without Vryn Wingmare and instead with crusader, avenger, and a mangara, I think the matchup is far more reasonable. Playing Wingmare instead of those cards is awful if you expect a lot of eldrazi. I ended up winning more main board games than I lost (something like 8-4 or so), but I think those numbers are probably slightly skewed due to some bad luck for the eldrazi deck.

I will say that personally I felt that wastelanding any of there "sol lands" if given the opportunity was correct. They are more reliant on having 2 of those than you'd think and mana denial on them actually isn't as hard as you might expect. I don't know what the matchup is like post board but I certainly don't think it's as bad game 1 of your deck is more prepared for it

Kagehisa

02-29-2016, 05:28 PM

I was thinking of Riders of Gavony and Crackdown.

One naming Eldrazi and is cool only if you have lots of humans and the other hating colorless (non-white). Note that Batterskull germ token dodges it (vigilance) and Phyrexian Revoker by being 2/1.

They're both expensive, and plus Crackdown is taxed by Thalia and End Bringer dodges it.

:(

iatee

02-29-2016, 05:28 PM

Alright, here's my SCG Philly report. I went 10-4-1.

My friend who also D2'd played my list with fewer Crusaders in the SB + Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, maybe one or two other SB changes. He's playing an Ethersworn main over a Revoker and only one Plateau + one Plains. I don't think the Ethersworn over Revoker swap is right, but going down to 1 Plateau might be. Over a fairly long period of playing this build, having only two Plains has generally been more relevant than getting cut off a Plateau, and you generally aren't thrilled to see the Plateau in your opening hand.

Didn't see any other Imperial Taxes player around, but I wasn't looking too hard. Anyway I think there's never been a better time to have a tutorable Blood Moon effect somewhere in your maindeck.

Here's my list:

Creatures (26)
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vryn Wingmare
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

Lands (23)
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Arid Mesa
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas

Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Was pretty content with my maindeck, would go into another tournament with the same one right now, Mangara won a game on his own once, and was a useful effect to have around a few other times, even when I lost the game he gave me an out. Going down to 2 Flickerwisps didn't feel painful, even though it combos so well with Recruiter, that's generally win-more and is the hardest card in the deck to cast. There was one game where a topdecked Flickerwisp woulda won me the game and that was also a game where I had (most likely correctly) sideboarded out all of my Flickerwisps.

I managed to dodge most of the bad matchups - Burn, Elves, Infect - but I think Chalices everywhere might have been eating a lot of those players in early rounds and there weren't a lot left on d2.

Sideboard
3 Ethersworn Canonist - I sideboarded these guys in 0/15 times, just weird set of matches overall.
1 Containment Priest - Bring this in for 'serious tournaments' and it feels like a responsible choice, especially when you can fetch it with Recruiter, but he really comes in so infrequently.
1 Fireslinger - Came in vs D+T, was useful.
1 Leonin Relic-Warder - Came in a few times. Manic Vandal woulda been better for me this tournament in most but not all of the games I played. (Vial on 2 to steal a Jitte was the exception.)
1 Magus of the Moon - Came in a lot. Could even go up to 4 in the 75 if Eldrazi and Lands stay so popular.
3 Mirran Crusader - Came in a lot. Going from an x/1 prison build g1 to a beater build g2 worked really well in general against BUG and Miracles.
2 Rest in Peace - Came in a lot
1 Path to Exile - Came in a lot. BUG Delver w/ no basics, D+T as extra removal, 3 Lands decks as a way better option than StP for Marit Lage.
2 Warping Wail - Came in a few times vs Miracles and D+T, never got to use it but woulda if the 3rd D+T game went longer or if the Miracles games weren't so one sided.

R1 - Shardless BUG (2-0 games) (1-0 matches)

G1 - Was pretty happy when I realized he was on a BUG deck, this build is naturally oppresssive for slow 3c decks, and I had 3 Mirran Crusader in the SB too. He played some things G1 and but was eventually Magused + Mom'd. I did this while he had a DRS with a few activations left, and I had no basics out, but I did have a Batterskull to match his goyf and a live Vial. He eventually naturally drew into a basic Forest, but he was never going to kill the Magus and couldn't pressure my life at all.

G2 - He mulled, then double Thoughseized me, took Mirran Crusader each time. I draw into the 3rd within the first few turns of the game.

R2 -Maverick (1-1-1 games) (1-0-1 matches)

G1 - I have a Vial/Thalia/Wingmare/Wingmare/Flickerwisp opening hand, and all I see out of his deck are 2 Scavenging Ooze, a Wasteland and a basic Forest (which he played T1). Not entirely sure what he's on, could be Jund, Aggro Loam, Maverick, some weird brew. I don't SB heavily, just bring in the Mirran Crusaders and take out the Maguses and a flyer. My game 1 plan seemed to have stopped him, regardless.

G2 - Turns out it was Maverick, which was really unfortunate cause I woulda sideboarded way differently. Took out Thalias for sure. This unfortunate situation was compounded when he E-tutored for Engineered Plague-on-human, and I drew into a bunch of Thalias. I had a Mirran Crusader to keep me alive on defense for a decent amount of time, but eventually he had too many threats and I drew too many dead cards.
G3 - Sideboarded properly, have a strong Vial hand, but he has a T1 Pithing Needle. Eventually my Mirran Crusader takes him to 1 life on turns, but he has a StP. He makes a Marit Lage token via KotR but I StP it and have enough blockers to force a draw.

R3 - BUG Delver (2-0 games) (2-0-1 matches)

G1 - We get a deck check. Opponent (from Europe) keeps an eye on the judge to ensure he doesn't sneak off with our decks. He mentions someone did that once in Europe at a Vintage tournament. I'm happy he cares about a judge not stealing his deck, because that means he's not playing Burn or Dredge. Deck check comes back fine, I StP his Delver and hold him off until Magus lands. Bring in the Crusaders, RiP, Path, take out some x/1s.

G2 - This is more of a game and he gets a Golgari Charm off that wipes my strong board. He has a Clique in play as a clock - I draw Recruiter for Magus, have Karakas to bounce his Clique when he doesn't have enough mana to recast it, then cast cavern'ed Magus into Rest in Peace for the lock. We play a G3 for fun and it's another blowout.

R4 - UWR Stoneblade (2-0) (3-0-1 matches)

G1 - I see plateau and blue duals, his mana gets pressured and he doesn't get anywhere. I think he bolted something or another, there was enough evidence that I knew he was on Stoneblade not Miracles. Bring in Relic Warder, Crusaders, take out StPs.

G2 - Fairly long game, he gets out a Batterskull early and I let it hit me down to a fairly low life total. He gets a Dack Fayden in play, steals my Vial on 3, luckily I didn't have any equipment in play yet. Eventually I get Sofi on a Wingmare, kill his Dack and take back control of the game.

R5 - Esper Mentor (1-2) (3-1-1)

G1 - Turn 1 he plays basic Island, Ponder. I put him on Miracles. Turn 2 Cabal Therapy for Thalia (which I didn't have, but then draw into) - now I put him on Storm and attack with Mom. I have a vial on 2 and reallly hope he's on Storm cause the topdecked surprise Thalia would wreck his turn. Instead he fetches for a white dual and StP's my tapped Mom - yikes, okay, bad read. But Thalia + more pressure ends up taking the game without him playing much else. Now I put him on Esper Stoneblade (misreading his deck for the 3rd time) with Lingering Souls+Cabal Therapy, take out the StPs for Crusaders and Relic Warder, but don't actually bring in RiP since I'm not 100% sure how graveyard dependent he is gonna be after board.

G2 - Nope, turns out it was a very graveyard dependent Esper Mentors / tokens deck, with Bitterblossom. I still woulda had a fine game if it weren't for Null Rod shutting off all my equipment. He eventually wrecks me with a large board of creatures. Sideboard properly after this game, bring back all the StPs for Mentors and whatever else.

G3 - Have a very strong Vial hand if he doesn't have T2 Null Rod - which he does. Game goes very long - I end up drawin all 4 Vials throughout the game. Eventually the board is cleared and we're both topdecking, I have a RiP to match his Null Rod - both of us playing with pretty nerfed decks. He draws a Clique and a Strix and starts pressuring my life, I draw Relic Warder for Null Rod, attach Jitte to it, trade to get temporary Jitte counters / kill them both. He draws into Mentor -> Lingering Souls, I draw StP, he Disenchants something for another Mentor token. I draw 2 Mirran Crusaders and put him to 4. My last turn of the game is I have two Mirran Crusaders, he has two tapped Lingering Souls tokens + 2 Mentor tokens to chump block, I'm at 2 life, he's at 4. A Flickerwisp would win on the spot, if I draw another Flyer or StP he has to draw something live to not lose. I believe I sideboarded out almost all of the flyers, since he had Bitterblossom + Lingering Souls. I draw a land and concede. If any of my 4 Aether Vials had been *any* creature, I win the game.

R6 - Miracles (2-0) (4-1-1)

G1 - Happy to get a Miracles matchup after being in the Miracles bracket for so long. This build is very heavily favored against Miracles unless they have a super hateful sideboard. G1 I have a Vial + Mangara lock hand, he unfortunately has his own Karakas which means I'm gonna have to wait until he taps it on his turn or I draw an answer before I get the lock going. I durdle around and stop him from doing much until I get a Wasteland for his Karakas and get the lock going, cutting him off white mana, he scoops. Put in Mirran Crusaders and a Warping Wail, take out Maguses, Flickerwisp, StP.

G2 - He has another slow hand and I have another Vial hand, he just never draws into anything relevant, despite having sideboarded a lot of relevant stuff.

R7 - D+T (2-1) (5-1-1)

G1 - Sat near this guy all day and he kept joking about how we'd play - so we both know what we're facing. He's on the play and T2 SFM. I have some things I can do to avoid it getting online immediately but eventually it's online and I can't come back. Bring in Warping Wails, Path, Relic Warder, Fireslinger, Mirran Crusaders. Take out Thalias / Wingmares.

G2 - Long game, he has a Batterskull + 2 Moms out early and starts getting ahead on life. He gets a Sword of War and Peace into play, which seems like it should be insane against me but it actually does quite little in the end, since life swings don't matter as much as the board state and I don't mind when he hits me with it. I Revoker his Moms, Firesling them, eventually Firesling my own Revoker to get my own Mom back online, and take over the game.

G3 - Short game, goes to time, I am heavily ahead and get a Mirran Crusader + equipment out to kill him in turns.

R8 - Miracles (2-0) (6-1-1)

G1 - He keeps a loose 1 land Ponder hand, fetches for a Tundra, gets punished by Wasteland.

G2 - I have a reasonable Vial hand and have a fast enough clock that his Terminus doesn't do it.

R9 - BUG Control (2-0) (7-1-1)

G1 - This is for D2, so I'm very happy to be paired against another BUG deck. Durdly start, but eventually Magus him. Bring in Crusaders, RiPs.

G2 - Tutor for Crusader early, he gets a TNN and they just sit across from each other, he can't attack because he's behind on life. Eventually I get RiP and some taxing effects, have a turn where I can equip SoFI to Crusader and attack for the win - but would lose to Abrupt Decay - so I just wait and pressure his mana until he literally can't cast it.

R10 - MUD w/ Thought Knot Seer (2-0) (8-1-1)

G1 - His first 3 lands were Posts, so I was leaning towards him being on 12 Post, I have a Vial and Ports, mostly pressure his mana but leave him open for a turn so I can build pressure - then he Thought Knots me - I have two Revokers and a Wingmare. He casts Metalworker, which gets Revokered. He Wastelands one of my Ports, leaving me with Cavern, Plains, Port, I draw Recruiter and Recruiter + Magus on T4, essentially ending the game. Bring in Relic Warder, Magus, Path.

G2 - I don't remember the details but it wasn't close, another Vial plus early Magus I think.

R11 - Lands (1-2) (8-2-1) (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99299)

G1 - Well known SCG grinder who T8'd. I beat him last time we played at Eternal Weekend and he remembered it, so I wasn't gonna get a surprise Magus win. Anyway, 7 card hand is only Wasteland/Port, 6 card hand is only a Fetch, 5 card hand is passable but slow and he's on the play, so he has enough time to set up before I can do anything relevant. Take out 3 StP, Thalia, Jitte, bring in RiPs, Path to Exile, Relic Warder.

G2 - I have an okay 7, no Vial and no Red cards, but enough action to keep. We play early Wasteland for Wastelands. He plays an early Molten Vortex, and my internal expected win % calculator goes down to like 20% since the rest of my hand involves casting creatures that immediately die to Molten Vortex, and if he has anything else going for him he probably wins. But he's low on Lands in hand and in play because he has to keep tossing them to kill my creatures - stuck on Taiga and Port - and I have two Wingmare so he can never cast a Loam. Cast Relic Warder for the Vortex and he scoops.

G3 - I mull to 6, he has an exploration -> combo hand with a 20/20 attacking me on T3. I had a generically strong 6 card hand (something like Vial, Mom, Thalia, Sfm, two lands) and woulda been able to survive and maybe win if I drew a Karakas, removal spell, or Wasteland. I kinda left myself open to this by only keeping 2 removal spells in the deck, but I am pretty sure that keeping all 4 StP is wrong, since two in your opening hand is so terrible.

R12 Hexmage Depths (2-0) (9-2-1) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99297

G1 - T1, Urborg, Inquisition, not sure what he's on, most likely Pox. T2 Exploration Map...still not really sure until he gets a Dark Depths with it. He goes for the combo early with Hexmage but I've drawn a StP in the two turns since he saw my hand. Sorta makes up for the previous game. Side in Crusaders, Magus I think I left 2 Stp + Path this time since this deck is more aggressive about going for the combo and I'm the one with inevitability.

G2 - Another T1 Inquisition, sees a clear hand and goes for an early combo, I topdeck Karakas. Pop his Marit, Recruit for Mangara lock. He had double Pithing Needle for Mangara and Vial, but not much else. His deck has almost zero ways to deal with a resolved Magus, so attempting to combo with imperfect information was the right play.

R13 Eldrazi (0-2) (9-3-1) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99291

G1 - I knew he was on Eldrazi since he was playing an Eldrazi mirror next to me during a previous match. I keep a reasonable hand, T1 Aether Vial and Wasteland, Mom flashes in to block his Mimic and gets Dismembered. Odd sequence. He then double Thought Knot Seers me and I can't keep up the race. Take out Moms, Thalia, Wingmare put in Path to Exile, Relic Warder, Crusaders, Magus.

G2 - Another strong hand, Vial + STP + Wasteland + Recruiter = I have a lot of the cards I want. T1 Vial, he T1 Mimics, I T2 Wasteland, StP his Mimic. He plays t2 Ratchet Bomb and kills my Vial. Plays his miser's Waste (!!) so my Recruiter for Magus game is dead. Hook up SFM with SoFI to try to get my own clock, it gets dismembered. Recruit for Mangara (with Karakas in play) instead of Magus. I leave myself open to him having a Reality Smasher - which he did - but Karakas lock was my only way to not lose the race. This matchup is no worse than 50-50 for Imperial but he really had everything exactly when he needed it and nobody is gonna beat Double TKS through Wasteland hands.

R14 Mono Red Painter (0-2) (9-4-1) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=99302

G1 - Fetch for basic Mountain - ew Burn, really? Okay no, painter, and I have a pretty decent hand vs it, with Vial, Revoker, Mom, Wasteland, some other nonsense. He gets a Servant, Welder out but only has one Mountain in play and appears to be stuck on lands. I have 2 Vials Grindstone targeted with Revoker, a Flickerwisp, and SfM brings in a Jitte. He Red Blasts the Jitte then tries to swap the Jitte in the graveyard wiht my Revoker. I mom protect it, so he does the same thing on his turn. I mentally check out and don't instantly vial in my new Revoker for Grindstone. He double SSG, Grindstone activates. I was trying to play around my second Revoker getting Red Blasted by Vialing in a Thalia EOT turn and I wanted the Revoker to not be open to any other Red Blasts in hand, cause then I'd have no Revokers in play. But he has way more ways to make 2 mana in a turn (4 SSGs, 7 more sol Lands) than remaining Red Blast effects (5). He might have even had another Blast in hand, and it wouldn't have mattered (he didn't remember when we talked after), but it was objectively a mistake, and I mighta thrown the game away. Bring in Path, Relic Warder, some Crusaders I think take out Sofi, Maguses and a Thalia probably shoulda brought in Warping Wails since it looked like he was heavily SBing and taking out his Moons (he did), but wanted to be conservative.

G2 - I have a fairly strong hand with Revoker, Recruiter, some other stuff, he has an early Top and Recruiters for Manic Vandal on T3, which is unfortunate cause he suggests he was sandbagging a Servant. I Relic Warder his Grindstone, tutor for Mangara and will have Mangara lock, have to leave him open for exactly one turn where he needs to have Painter in hand + Red Blast for Relic Warder + mana acceleration. But he has it (double SSG again). I think I played this game well. Painter's not a terrible matchup overall but he had a very good SB for D+T, so I'm not sure I'd even be favored G3.

R15 Lands (2-0) (10-4-1)

G1 - I have a slow opening hand with just Mom, Thalia, Vial he gets a Loam going pretty quickly and starts building a huge board. I do 0 damage to him and have a Vial on 3, just mentally knocking on the top of my deck for Magus. I draw it at most likely the last possible opportunity. He didn't have a Punishing Fire lock going yet. However, he did have Riftstone Portal in the yard plus double Tranquil Thicket, Loam. So he had as much Green mana as he wanted, and could dredge and draw a lot each turn. I see zero Punishing Fires in his graveyard during this period, even after he's probably churned through maybe half his deck. I did see one Molten Vortex (had he drawn that he woulda won.) I have one key decision in the game - is he playing zero Punishing Fires and just playing Molten Vortex (my previous Lands opponent was) - if so I can Recruiter for Revoker for Vortex, and can't lose next turn. Or I can hold the Recruiter + Vial on 3, cast a 4 mana (thanks Thalia...) SoFI with 4/5 of my lands and hook it up for a near lock next turn. His turn, he Dredge+Draws a bunch one last time - eventually has exactly enough mana to Punishing Fire the Magus twice in a row with the two Punishing Fires he has in hand. I Recruiter for Magus EOT, vial it in on my turn, hook up SoFI and it's game. Board as I did for previous Lands games.

G2 - He goes all in on an early combo, I have Path to Exile. I think I had some other ways to not die this time, like Mom + a Flyer? Anyway, he needs to topdeck Loam to do anything relevant, gets eventually, gets a Glacial Chasm loop going while at 7 life, but I Waste the Chasm and attack with a large board. I hadn't noticed, but G1 took so long that we were about to go to time anyway, and there was no way he'd be able to turn that boardstate into a win soon enough.