[Deck] Death and Taxes

[iatee]

So I've been thinking about Pyrokinesis for the Imperial SB. It's a little more versatile than Sudden Demise and faster, and I think we could find a way to play up to 14 or 15 red cards post-board, which makes it roughly as safe as Sudden Demise is with ~7 red sources.

Pyrokinesis board would look something like:

not-red: 7
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn
1 Relic Warder
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
red: 8
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Magus
1 Manic Vandal
1 Cunning Sparkmage
4 Pyrokinesis

With 3 Recruiter / 3 Magus or 4 Recruiter / 2 Magus main that makes 14 red cards, which gives you an 80% chance of having two in your opening hand if you just dropped the whole red package in.

Obviously very good against Elves + Infect + the mirror, not bad vs Grixis Delver, kinda okay vs other DRS+Delver decks. Vs Eldrazi kills TKS and random small Eldrazi crap, though you'd really be wrecking your hand vs a TKS. Good vs all other random creature decks.

It seems like there's a way to fit it in if we really wanted to make it work, the question is whether it's worth warping your SB like that.

[Barook]

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/giselathebrokenblade.jpg

A legendary mini Baneslayer - kinda sucks that she still dies to Bolt. Thoughts on it?

[iatee]

I think it's pretty clearly playable for the Mono-W sb. BUG decks just can't kill it, it's a Karakas-able bomb vs Miracles. Good vs Eldrazi. You probably don't bring it in vs Bolt decks, but who cares if it's so strong against everything else?

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Hanweir-Garrison-Eldritch-Moon-Spoiler.png

I think Hanweir Garrison is potentially playable for Imperial, as a tutorable Hero of Bladehold. The meld stuff doesn't matter, maybe some other deck could actually use it though.

http://www.magicspoiler.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Blessed-Alliance.png

SB potential, good vs TNN, Burn, Eldrazi?

With these plus Thalia 2.0, seems like there will be a lot of new toys with this set. They've barely spoiled anything and I see 4 potentially playables already.

[redtwister]

@nevilshute
Good job! Do you have a deck list from Prague?

@iatee
If the mainboard of WW is "solved" as you say (though the flex slots fluctuate heavily around the meta as new tech comes in and goes out, e.g. Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brimaz, King of Oreskos, new Thalia, Vryn Wingmare), the sideboard has plenty of room for innovation with Gideon and the new cards you pointed out. Whatever build you are playing, DnT is much more exciting than say Delver.dec or Storm or Jund or Lands.

Wow, yeah, Hanweir Garrison. you are right, that is pretty exciting value right there. If they can't kill it, it will take over the board. I do wish it was Legendary, but on the other hand, it is 3 mana and only 2R, not 1RR, so it looks like a very solid 3 drop.

@everyone
I said it on MTGSalvation, and I will say it here:
Why aren't we a little more excited with 3 DnT decks in a Top 8? Sure, it's not a GP or an Open, but it's still quite a thing. No one expects that from DnT. I stopped watching coverage early yesterday and woke up to DnT Domination. Boo-ya!

Plus, NevilShute on TheSource went 6-0 on a side event at GP Prague with a build somewhat like the Arbiter build from BMO Japan a couple years ago.

More importantly, all four of these builds show how hard it might be now to build a sideboard against DnT because each one has some novel aspects (Imperial is less susceptible to anti-W effects like Dread of Night, can fetch answers, and attacks decks like Elves with a mana efficient sweeper; Arbiter attacks fetching very aggressively and has, in effect, 8 Wasteland; WW has it's usual array of tricks and is the more successfully aggressive build with a suite of Serra Avengers, Mirran Crusaders and Brimaz, King of Oreskos; The Displacer build can abuse flicker effects, resetting Revokers, avoiding spot removal, stopping attackers and removing blockers, etc.) And with sideboard innovations like Gideon, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Sword of War and Peace, Faerie Macabre, and the like, the deck is not easy to simply beat by being faster or more controlling.

Also, did anyone find it odd that the Displacer build didn't run any Containment Priest?

With how well players are doing and how engaged and innovative DnT players are, I feel like this is one of the most exciting decks to play and by far the best community of players to be in (regardless of the forum.)

[Marungo]

I'm certainly excited DnT did that well. I agree that it's not an open or a GP but it's still exciting to see a deck we all like and play so much so that well.

The one really important thing to note with this though is the many different ways that you can go with DnT and find success. There was a more classic build that the majority runs that won the tournament, an imperial build with some strange choices top 4'ing, and a displacer build that sees less play but had put up quite a few results lately and gets the advantage of running a few factories.

The important thing to note is that this highlights how important being skilled with the deck is moreso than the specific build that we should play. It's clear you can succeed with different builds but being able to play the deck optimally is most important. I do worry more that people will just randomly take these ideas and toss them into their deck without testing or thinking of reasons why the cards were added. Most people should not play restoration angel or 61 cards just because it succeeded (and 22 lands too?!). The player who played it was obviously skilled at playing DnT but the result alone I hope does not influence people too much. The main point; be willing to test these things and embrace the different ways you can take DnT but don't take these results as the end all be all on how the deck or that version of the deck should be built.

[AsmodeusDM]

re: pyrokinesis
Also card disadvantage is pretty rough in D&T....

[iatee]

It's rarely card disadvantage if you're doing it right. I think the math still doesn't add up though when it comes to red-card-count and I don't think wrecking the SB is worth beating Elves. But I think it's kinda close to being playable.

[DemonicDust]

Most people should not play restoration angel or 61 cards just because it succeeded (and 22 lands too?!). The player who played it was obviously skilled at playing DnT but the result alone I hope does not influence people too much. The main point; be willing to test these things and embrace the different ways you can take DnT but don't take these results as the end all be all on how the deck or that version of the deck should be built.


I am that player who played 61 cards and 22 lands....I have done the Resto 61st for a couple years now and have had quite a bit of practice with it...so I agree...don't just follow blindly...learn the deck before trying off the beaten track things,it works for me,but may not work for others.Also,the 22 lands was never an issue except the last game of the semi finals(yeah,the most important one)...so I feel the number works...for me anyhow.I will admit that although I played well,there were some lucky breaks during the day...like the miracles player never drawing white in game 3 round 8 which allowed me to get into top 8.I will say this,I don't expect to top 8 every tourney I play now because this happened...but it gives me more confidence that it CAN happen. PS...There is a great feeling when you tick vial to 4 and your opponent is visibly puzzled,then you ambush the delver coming at you for what they think is a win.

[saberoca]

I'm interested in what the forum thinks about the Burn matchup. Here are my thoughts and I'm curious what you think.

Overall, your role is generally to create some disruption (not as much as against ANT but still some) and to race your opponent. You can end the game with one Mirran Crusader hit with SoFI and a resolved Batterskull or active Jitte pretty much tie it up.

Your best cards are generally your equipment and Mom.

Your worst cards are SotL since Burn has no card draw.

Sideboard cards are your obvious anti-red hate like Absolute Law or CoP and also Council's Judgment for Sulfuric Vortex and/or Ensnaring Bridge.

I am okay siding out 1 Revoker if you run 4 but no more since I want to draw it to shut down Lavamancer.

Disenchant effects can also be strong since they hit Eidolon, Bridge, and Vortex.

Typically, the burn player will side out some number of Goblin Guides and Monastery Swiftspears since they do not match up well against many D&T creatures and lack evasion. They will likely bring in Vortex, Bridge, Smash to Smithereens, and Searing Blaze. Watch out for the Smash in response to equipping. While they generally lack sweepers, Disorder is a card and is a beating if it makes an appearence.

In terms of a mana denial plan, Wasteland is essentially a dead card against the burn player. You can use Rishadan Port and Thalia to limit the number of spells they can cast but ultimately their spells are so inexpensive that this plan seems unlikely to succeed in the long run.

What would you add to these thoughts? What do you disagree with? What do you agree with? If there are already posts I should read for this matchup, please let me know.

[from Cairo]

http://mythicspoiler.com/emn/cards/giselathebrokenblade.jpg

A legendary mini Baneslayer - kinda sucks that she still dies to Bolt. Thoughts on it?

I could be wrong, but on paper I like Resto Angel better. Resto matches up better against Bolt and feel like Flash is strong versus Shardless... guess this new angel is maybe better against Eldrazi due to First strike and 4 power and being Legendary might be enough upside to be prefered versus Miracles. I don't want to be ticking Vial to 4 in most cases anyway.

[Bahra]

So at GP Prague between rounds I was chatting with Michael Bonde who was also on mono white, and we both had just played against reanimator, him picking up a loss and I a win.

We talked about sideboarding in the matchup and we figured out that we were sideboarding completely differently and disagreed about the way to approach the matchup after board.

I'd like to hear the way some of you guys board and how you play the matchup after board, before I tell you how Bonde and I handle the match up and how we disagree.

[AsmodeusDM]

So post-board I typically expect reanimator to bring in:

Inkwell and/or Elesh Norn
Pithing Needle (for Karakas)


So our best cards (typically) are:

Rest in Peace (obv)
Karakas
Creature removal: Swords, Path, or Judgement

Phy Revoker can also be used to shut-off Griselbrand or Lotus Petal


Our worst cards are:

Mom -- No removal, doesn't protect vs. Elesh
Jitte -- Creatures in Reanimator are too big


So I'd probably play something like:

+2-3 RiPs
+0-1 Paths
+1-2 Council's Judgments
-4 Moms
-1 Jitte

[iatee]

In:
Containment Priest
Rest in Peace (+ E tutors)
Council's Judgment
Path to Exiles
Extra Mirran Crusaders
Surgical
For Imperial, obviously Faerie Macabre
Relic Warder (eats Needle / random Petals)
Any Fiend Hunter / Banisher Priests in the board

Side out:
Jitte
Magus is terrible w/ Imperial since it shuts off your own Karakas, so that's an easy side out
Some number of Revokers since it's generally a bit slow vs a fast Griselbrand / Lotus Petals
Usually one SfM since you don't want multiples
If it looks like they're playing Massacre/Dread of Night as their only DnT hate, then Moms, possibly all 4
Flickerwisp is only okay, a bit slow and weak to Dread of Night, so cutting some is fine


AsmodeusDM, Reanimator very frequently plays Abrupt Decay and often plays Disfigure or Echoing Truth. So Mom is often quite good. If you see a Green dual, then you definitely shouldn't be cutting Mom.

[AsmodeusDM]

I forgot about C Priest!

I still am iffy about keeping in mom's; adecay is likely for RiPs and Mom doesn't protect against that.

But maybe I'm off base here; I can definitely see cutting SFM... it's not like SoFI is a instant game-ending play anyways (and Jitte is coming out).

Phy Revoker may be too slow; but at least it does something (potentially game changing)...

[iatee]

Mom has been pretty good for me vs Reanimator. Protecting C Priest / Thalia, getting attackers past their board for the final damage, giving a flyer pro-Griselbrand so they can't gain life. Plus, you don't always have a Rest in Peace, and the Decays that they play are going to be looking for something to do.

[Cwoj]

Mono White (Using Enevoldsen's List for consistency +1 mom, -1 Spirit) -

OUT:
Jitte
4 Flicker
2 Crusader

IN:
Relic
2 RIP
2 Canonist
2 Containment

NMKS Imperial

OUT:
Jitte
3 Magus
4 Flicker

IN:
2 Surgical
1 Faerie Mac
1 Containment Preist
4 Canonist

I don't think you want additional spot removal, I see the match up being about tempo (from mana denial/disruption), we will never truly lock them out since they have answers to our hate. Being stuck with a bunch of removal in hand seems rough, although I could see a judgement or 2 if you have them to hedge against needle on Karakas (although more than likely they well be targeting their non-legendaries post board)

That is why I have always filled my remaining slots with canonists, seems like I am in the minority here but I see canonist as a bear that has the slight upside of possibly providing positive interaction, dodges -1/-1 whereas I have found the flicker ability to be rarely relevant, costs 3, and flying rarely seems to matter.

Seems like I am in the minority, however. Look forward to more weighing in.

[redtwister]

WW
In:
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
x Path to Exile
x Council's Judgment
x Relic of Progenitus

Out:
4 Flickerwisp
1 SfM
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
x Mom

Imperial
WW
In:
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace or 2 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Path to Exile
1 Relic-Warder

Out:
3 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Jitte

I don't care for Canonist at all in the match; it's not like playing Storm or High Tide. If they are casting two spells a turn, I feel like they did it turn 1 and you are in trouble anyway. And even if Revoker is slow, it is better than Canonist. I basically want extra removal and extra GY hate.

[iatee]

Cwoj, I think Crusader is actually quite good. It is a fast clock, dodges all of their removal (other than Massacre), attacks past Griselbrand/Grave Titan.

As per spot removal, I am always happy to have one in my opening hand since it gives a not-Karakas play against a lot of their fastest starts. To maximize the chances of having one in your opening hand, you need to play more than 4. You're not boarding out any STPs w/ Enevoldsen's list, which would imply that 4 one mana removal spells is exactly the right number. But even if '4 is just right' were true, Path is actually a bit stronger than STP so you would want to swap in 2 for 2, since giving them a bunch of life is really relevant, especially vs Griselbrand / Reanimate. But I think it's more likely that 4 is not right, and personally I would play up to 8 if I could. (I've been trying 3 Paths in the board lately so I might come close to doing that...)

The risk to playing a ton of Path/STP effects is if they manage to quickly find and reanimate something with shroud/hexproof/Iona then you have some dead cards, but they can't always have Entomb and often their best play is to just go for whatever they can get in their yard.

I don't generally play Council's Judgment, but I think that should be an even easier include than Path, because the go all-in on a shroud/hexproof dude plan is one of their easier routes to victory + you'll generally have enough time to cast it.

[redtwister]

What iatee said. There is no such thing as too much removal if they get a fatty out and Path is less painful than Swords, so it's a good one in this match. I generally want 6 or more pieces of removal, in whatever combination of StP + PtE + CJ + Banisher Priest/Fiend Hunter.

[AsmodeusDM]

I do agree with the idea that Flickerwisp is too slow and doesn't really have any targets in the match-up... and being a flyer is kinda unimportant except for potentially blocking a griselbrand.

[florenzo]

Hi all, I'm new as writer, but not as reader :) Good job to all DnT players, especially to @Medea and his new website. Regards from Spain.

@Bahra I think is a weird match. Massacre, Abrupt Decay, -1-1 effects. My SB would be:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
3 [LG] Karakas
9 [10E] Plains (3)
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)

// Creatures
2 [M13] Serra Avenger
4 [MMA] Flickerwisp
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [DKA] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
2 [MBS] Mirran Crusader
1 [BNG] Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 [BNG] Spirit of the Labyrinth

// Spells
4 [MMA] AEther Vial
1 [JGC] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [BRB] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 2 [CNS] Council's Judgment
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [M14] Banisher Priest
SB: 1 [BFZ] Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
SB: 1 [EX] Cataclysm

-4 STP
-1 Jitte
-2 Mirran
-2 Flickerwisp

+1 PTE
+3 RIP
+2 Containment
+1 Banisher Priest
+2 Councils

[Bahra]

So my list was:

http://i.imgur.com/Wk7j85y.jpg

And I boarded the following:

+3 Rest in Peace
+2 Council's Judgement
+1 Retribution of the Meek

-3 Mirran Crusader
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Umezawa's Jitte

Bonde played almost the exact same list but with 2 Retribution of the Meek. So he had 7 cards to board in and 7 to board out, he boarded out the full Stoneforge Mystic package which shows how our gameplan differs.

I believe the match up is about fighting through their initial "brokenness" and then establishing a board state that is insurmountable for the reanimator player. A combination of resilient creatures and disruptive permanents such as Rest in Peace and Karakas. For me it's a grindy match up after board and that is why I want Batterskull and Sword of Fire and Ice.

Bonde believes that it is about preventing them from "going off" and chooses to go the more disruptive route and cuts the best cards for grinding, namely the cards that make up the Stoneforge Mystic package.

I make the assumption that the reanimator player is gonna try to fight through karakas first of all, with Pithing Needle or non-legendary creatures like Inkwell Leviathan and Grave Titan. That is where spot removal and equipment comes in handy. Flickerwisp is excellent vs. a Pithing Needle preventing a Karakas activation or (with the help of Mother of Runes) at holding back a Griselbrand. Often the reanimator player can only afford to draw 7 once or not at all because of early pressure from the mono white player and the life loss of resolving Reanimate on a Griselbrand. Mirran Crusader is too expensive for being nothing but a beater that hits through Griselbrand (again I believe we're a control-lock deck vs. Reanimator moreso than an aggro-prison deck). Jitte is the worst of the equipment and Phyrexian Revoker doesn't do enough to warrant 6 copies of cards with the sole purpose of preventing griselbrand activations (we have 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth already and they are far more effective because of shutting down card drawing as well as cantripping, with 1 more power even).

That is my reasoning for how I sideboard and I am yet to be convinced by other players' reasoning that I am wrong or should adjust my sideboarding even a little.

[DemonicDust]

My tournament report from Dallas SCG Legacy Classic....not the most detailed,but...you get the gist.


http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30809-Dallas-SCG-Legacy-Classic-with-Imperial-Taxes&p=957516#post957516

[iatee]

Thanks for the report Demonic.

Bahra, I basically agree that the games will often be grindy, but for that reason I think that Mirran Crusader is great. You say you want resilient creatures in the matchup, but you're boarding out a card that's basically TNN against them. It also isn't an x/1, which barely matters for Dread of Night since you probably can't beat an early Dread of Night with that list, Crusader or no, but sometimes they'll have a one-of Golgari Charm.

With your deck I woulda dropped another Flickerwisp, Revoker and one SfM and kept the Crusaders. Flickerwisp/Revoker/SfM all provide useful but inconsistently useful effects, whereas Crusader is consistently a fast clock that they can't interact with.

I think you want some amount of the SfM package - Bskull gives you outs to racing Inkwell or Titan, Sofi is just good and draws you more hate + combined with Crusader you can race anything. But having multiple SfMs in your opening hand or one + an equipment is pretty awful since you're now going to be drawing Squires and you rarely will have the mana to be investing into multiple SfMs and multiple activations. So I think siding out one is fine. I've sided out everything but Sofi when I wasn't playing Bskull in the 75, since they're pretty awkward with just one piece of equipment.

[Bahra]

Thanks for the report Demonic.

Bahra, I basically agree that the games will often be grindy, but for that reason I think that Mirran Crusader is great. You say you want resilient creatures in the matchup, but you're boarding out a card that's basically TNN against them. It also isn't an x/1, which barely matters for Dread of Night since you probably can't beat an early Dread of Night with that list, Crusader or no, but sometimes they'll have a one-of Golgari Charm.

With your deck I woulda dropped another Flickerwisp, Revoker and one SfM and kept the Crusaders. Flickerwisp/Revoker/SfM all provide useful but inconsistently useful effects, whereas Crusader is consistently a fast clock that they can't interact with.

I think you want some amount of the SfM package - Bskull gives you outs to racing Inkwell or Titan, Sofi is just good and draws you more hate + combined with Crusader you can race anything. But having multiple SfMs in your opening hand or one + an equipment is pretty awful since you're now going to be drawing Squires and you rarely will mana to be investing into multiple SfMs and multiple activations. So I think siding out one is fine. I've sided out everything but Sofi when I wasn't playing Bskull in the 75, since they're pretty awkward with just one piece of equipment.

The thing is that Mirran Crusader is not good enough at grind and not good enough at disruption (it doesn't disrupt at all) to be worth 3 mana. And it also dies to Elesh Norn and Massacre. It's easy to ignore for reanimator and it doesn't have utility like Flickerwisp or Revoker, or is SUPER good at grinding like SFM.

[redtwister]

So your deck list makes a significant difference.

I see your point on Flickerwisp. I wasnt even thinking that a WW build with Avenger would take those out instead of 'Wisp anyway.

3 Mirran Crusader is a lot, I like keeping 1.

2 Spirit of the Labyrinth means you can cut a couple of Revoker and maybe you get to use them on mana rocks.

Also, you had Retribution of the Meek and a 3rd RiP, and no PtE, Containment Priest or Fiend Hunter, so yeah, I think you are all in on Flickerwisp to deal with a Needle, since you can't flash in Priest and you have somewhat limited removal options. At that point, I think your choices are reasonable.

In that case, I would have sided slightly differently given your options:
OUT:
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 SfM or Flickerwisp

IN:
3 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgement
1 Retribution of the Meek

I take it the argument wasn't over what comes in but what goes out?

[iatee]

I don't think SfM is better at grinding than Crusader - it takes a lot of turns and a lot of mana to set up anything, and a single Decay/Disfigure/anything can disrupt it and leads to a huge tempo loss. Crusader just comes down and is a guaranteed clock, they have a few turns to win now or find a Massacre. If you have a Vial, you never need to invest any mana into Crusader (unlike SfM) so you can Wasteland/Port/hold up Karakas / Containment Priest.

I also think that Revoker and Flickerwisps' disruptions are soft and inconsistent enough that the faster and more guaranteed clock is worth not having any disruption attached. Sure you *can* Flickerwisp a Needle and Karakas their legend when that board state is perfectly setup for that interaction, and sure Revoker can make Griselbrand 'only a 7/7 lifelink' or help cut them off mana if they were really dependent on Lotus Petal...but let's not pretend these guys are anywhere close to Thalia/SotL/Containment Priest in terms of disruption for this matchup.

I actually used to board out more Crusaders myself until one day I noticed how many games I seemed to be stealing with the ones I left in.

[Bahra]

So your deck list makes a significant difference.

I take it the argument wasn't over what comes in but what goes out?

Yes I should've have provided a decklist but I guess that I was mostly thinking about sideboarding philosophy and match up approach as opposed to card by card sideboarding.

Yes the discussion was about what to take out

[Finn]

Bahra, I always take out Flickerwisps and leave at least the Batterskull in for Mystic. I rarely play with Mirran Crusader, but I think I would pull those in favor of better disuption - though the Flickerwisps come out first. Avengers too. And Revokers. I tend to have lots of strong disruption for this opponent, so anything that smells like aggro is on the chopping block. So, I am more on Bonde's train.

But Reanimator's path against D+T is hard, sort of like ours against Elves. That is, they might get away with a lucky Elesh Norn or Iona - if D+T does not have Karakas, it is game over. (I think that Gitaxian Probe is incredibly strong for Reanimator on turn 1, telling them what to Entomb in this decision.) But the safe route for them is slow-rolling beat down with something we can't unsummon. So I keep the Mystics as a hedge, because just having Batterskull around prevents that from working. Take out Batterskull and they really do have a clear path. If they happen to choose that path, you have lost a would-be great matchup.

One more thing: I preordered Thalia, Heretic Cather today. I told myself I was done buying cards after having sold every card not in D+T. But I can't pass this one up.

[Svyelunite]

One more thing: I preordered Thalia, Heretic Cather today. I told myself I was done buying cards after having sold every card not in D+T. But I can't pass this one up.

If she's as good as we all think, you have still sold every card "not in D+T". :wink:

[ThomasEnevoldsen]

Against Reanimator:

in:

+2 Containment Priest
+2 RiP
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Relic of Progenitus

out:

-1 Jitte
-1 Sword of Fire and Ice
-2 Stoneforge
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Brimaz
-2 Mirran Crusader

On the draw I also add 1 Pithing Needle and a stoneforge and take out 2 Thalia

If you know they have Dread of Night/Massacre, boarding changes slightly, as you want to keep Brimaz and a mirran Crusader for 2 Flickerwisp. And if you are on the draw, Thalia might be bumped down to 1 for the 4th stoneforge, and probably try to find room for the sword of fire and ice again.

Flickerwisp is pretty good against reanimator in general, so I would be really hesitant to board those out, as they have wide applications. Once you establish control, reanimator is pretty awful deck, so any beaters will do, you do not need to end it fast. The Stoneforge light package is to have access to lifegain in batterskull for racing situations. But usually your removal should just trump them, but you can still lose to turn 1-2 griselbrand because of the advantages it gives you. That is why I am siding in needle on the draw, as I want more outs against turn 1/2 Griselbrand.

[iatee]

It's interesting how little consensus there is.

We have:
- Board out the whole package
- Board out just Jitte
- Board out 1 Sfm, Jitte
- Board out 2 SfM, Jitte, Sofi

I think I remember someone months ago saying that they even kept Jitte.

I don't really see the logic with Needle on the draw. If they have a t1 Griselbrand then they already get to draw their deck, so it's only doing anything vs a t2 Griselbrand. If anything I would side it in on the play, where you now have an additional t1 play and you can also use it to hit Polluted Delta. I also don't see the logic of -2 Thalia on the draw. I just want to keep cards with the maximum chance of having relevance in the matchup and Thalia has a higher chance of being relevant than say, Flickerwisp, even if she might be slow or awkward if they have a fast start or you have too many non-creature spells.

I think there may not actually be an optimal boarding strategy because most of the DnT cards have some % chance of being the exact card that wins a particular Reanimator game, but the ratio that these various situation occur isn't super predictable. How your opponent chooses to play the matchup also isn't predictable (go for a fast start that loses to a Karakas? Board out countermagic?) and that affects whether your boarding was correct. I've won with every card in the deck, SfM has been good for me, SfM has been very bad for me. Were we to test 1000 post-board games with stock DnT vs stock Reanimator, it's totally possible that the 'board out the SfM package' strategy wins roughly as often as the 'keep the SfM package' strategy, they just win different games, with the first strategy winning more games via lock pieces and the second strategy losing fewer grindy games or to racing. (I think the any 'don't board in all your removal' plan would almost certainly win fewer games though.)

[nmks]

iatee: Relic-Warder is surely a strong card, but almost everytime I had an option to search it, Mangara did the same trick. Sure it's a turn slower, but there's almost always been a way to play the game that I've had a turn to wait before it gets active. The decision to drop the Leonin gave me more space in the sideboard. Oh and the Miracles, I do admit that Pia and Kiran is powerful against them. I have just faced Terminus too often and without Karakas the couple won't have that big impact so I have decided to try some planeswalkers as they're more resilient. Or I might just have been playing wrongly against the deck which gives me the feeling of a not-too-good match up.


I also see it quite interesting how the thoughts differ about sideboarding, but here's how I would board:

Bahra's mono W:
+ 3 Rest in Peace
+ 2 Council's Judgment
+ 1 Pithing Needle
+ 1 Retribution of the Meek

- 4 Stoneforge Mystic
- 1 Batterskull
- 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
- 1 Umezawa's Jitte


My Imperial:
+ 1 Containment Priest
+ 1 Faerie Macabre
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Path to Exile

- 3 Magus of the Moon
- 2 Stoneforge Mystic


Play or draw doesn't matter.

I think you have to have a Karakas/Swords/Judgment or t2 SotL, Revoker, Thalia or RiP to even try to battle the deck. This means you won't usually have time to play t2 Mystic. Because of that I like more Mirran Crusaders as grinders as it's a better option after t2. Of course having a Vial in play does reflect here, but still I like the Crusaders more. It also gets past Griselbrand for the win if the opponent is already at 4 points of life or less. After all I don't know if this is really the right way to sideboard as I haven't played the mono white version for months, but I kinda see the game the same way as Bonde does.

So I'd play all the disruption that is available because I think the game's over if the opponent gets to animate with us having no immediate answer to it. So for me the main thing is to either have an answer to the creatures they animate or graveyard hate, but it's also important to disrupt their game otherwise so we'd have a chance to remove the creature they could animate. Though it's fun how Karakas can win the game on it's own.

With the Imperial version I think it's a clear choice that Magus' come out. Reanimator usually searches for basics early and has Petals so the Moon effect doesn't really disrupt them. And also, Karakas doesn't like. I left one Mystic in as a Recruiter target if you for some reason want to get a faster clock. It's easier to avoid a Massacre with this build as you have an option to Waste your own Plateau after you don't need it anymore, but it's not always the right line of play.

I think there was also a discussion about Canonists. I don't think it disrupts the opponent in any meaningful way.

[iatee]

Yeah I think you might be approaching the Miracles match-up from a wrong angle, or maybe just had bad luck. I feel like our g1 vs Miracles is extremely, extremely favorable, which in turn makes the matchup favorable regardless of how you board. Countertop is weak vs Mono-W, but it can still spike g1s. But vs. 3 Cavern + human tribal, countertop is just dead, along with most of the rest of their countermagic, so they just have so many dead cards in their deck g1.

Terminus is less of a threat if you just constantly Recruiter-for-Recruiter until you absolutely need something else. I board very lightly for the match and make sure I keep a decent number of StPs to not die to an early Mentor, then force them to earn a win via their SB cards. You basically play the match as a true control mirror - you have just as much inevitability and even card advantage (with Recruiters) and just need to ensure they don't spike a win with an early Jace/Mentor. I would feel even better with your board, since having Ratchet Bombs also means you're less concerned about them ever finding Entreat. Pia+Kiran + Karakas is eventually our version of Entreat, and doesn't have to come out quickly.

As per Relic, Mangara is good but can't deal with an active Jitte, is pretty slow vs Chalice and doesn't deal with Dread of Night - and those are really the cards I'm most concerned with. I have also won an inordinate number of games vs Dnt/Merfolk with a V1 Vial, t2 Relic your Vial. I am a huge fan of Relic-Warder, only issue is WW on t2 often means burning a Cavern on Cleric.

[colo]

For the record, I tried Mirror Entity as a one-of mainboard last wednesday, and won against Aggro Loam on the back of it (from Vial) by swinging a Recruiter, a Stoneforge Mystic and a Mother of Runes into my opponent for 15. I think it could also have made a huge difference in the mirror (which I lost due to not seeing a single Recruiter or StP or Mother of Runes in ~30 cards over two games). I think I'll stick with it for a while and see how it goes.

[Plague Sliver]

I interviewed Thomas Enevoldsen today for a Magic podcast. We talked about his Magic-playing career, and also discussed his experiences with Death and Taxes.

Although we focused on general Magic and life topics, I couldn't help but ask him a bunch of Death and Taxes questions :) They didn't make the final recording, but I've captured the Q&A here:

https://writtenbyjames.com/2016/07/02/magic-talk-with-thomas-enevoldsen/

Thomas was a great guy to talk to, and I hope you'll give the recording a chance (it's in the link above).

[DisgruntledElk]

Thomas,

I apologize if this has already been addressed, but is there a reason you are playing the mono-white version as opposed to Imperial? I have played both and between blood moon, demonic tutor the creature (Recruiter), and superior SB options, I have trouble going back to Mono White. I've been playing the deck for about 4 years now, so I'm just curious as to your thoughts.

[zebhillard]

Just took down a local monthly with mono-white. 5 rounds into a top 8 with 74 of the 75 I played at GP Columbus. I'll put together a short report a bit later this weekend.

[Finn]

I got some good testing with Thalia, Heretic Cathar today.

It was highly relevant against every deck I tried it against, and moved up to crippling in longer games. The number of mistakes my opponents made simply in miscalculating the board state has been pretty high.

Highlights:
-I played four games against 3-color Mentor Miracles (all preboard). The one I had THC out was laughable. His expansion was anemic compared to mine, and I crushed him easily. When he hit me with Terminus, I saved TGT instead of THC and he said it was a mistake (I had another in hand that he did not know about).
-I faced Elves, and the game I got THC was unbelievable: Me first: Aether Vial, him land Llanowar Elf. Me:TGT, him: land Zenith for an Elf - Heritage I think. Me:THC, Mystic for Jitte. He looks at his hand and can't believe what the board state is now. He Hoofed on his turn three, but it did not do much because only two Elves were untapped and I had my first strike wall. I missed my next land drop, but I got Jitte on the turn after and it was over soon after.

Looking pretty solid, boys.

[DisgruntledElk]

I got some good testing with Thalia, Heretic Cathar today.

It was highly relevant against every deck I tried it against, and moved up to crippling in longer games. The number of mistakes my opponents made simply in miscalculating the board state has been pretty high.

Highlights:
-I played four games against 3-color Mentor Miracles (all preboard). The one I had THC out was laughable. His expansion was anemic compared to mine, and I crushed him easily. When he hit me with Terminus, I saved TGT instead of THC and he said it was a mistake (I had another in hand that he did not know about).
-I faced Elves, and the game I got THC was unbelievable: Me first: Aether Vial, him land Llanowar Elf. Me:TGT, him: land Zenith for an Elf - Heritage I think. Me:THC, Mystic for Jitte. He looks at his hand and can't believe what the board state is now. He Hoofed on his turn three, but it did not do much because only two Elves were untapped and I had my first strike wall. I missed my next land drop, but I got Jitte on the turn after and it was over soon after.

Looking pretty solid, boys.

I have also tested her in the Imperial build, tweaking it like this:
-1 Magus of the Moon (down to 2)
-1 Kor Skyfisher
-1 Pia and Kiran
+3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

I'm running 3 to maximize the testing. If it turns out that 3 is too many, I'll tick her down to 2.

Anyway, I also tested her:
-Vs Miracles: She was fantastic. It was the legends build, so shutting down flash blockers was nuts
-Vs Eldrazi: 3 power first strike is fantastic, especially when coupled with OG Thalia. That, and making Reality Smasher come in tapped is insane
-Vs BUG delver: Their mana being even further cut, in addition to daze being made much worse due to the time walk on their lands makes it even worse against us.

Obviously she still needs more testing, but I have the inkling that she is going to become the next staple 3-of

[Sparkii]

I got some good testing with Thalia, Heretic Cathar today.

It was highly relevant against every deck I tried it against, and moved up to crippling in longer games. The number of mistakes my opponents made simply in miscalculating the board state has been pretty high.

Highlights:
-I played four games against 3-color Mentor Miracles (all preboard). The one I had THC out was laughable. His expansion was anemic compared to mine, and I crushed him easily. When he hit me with Terminus, I saved TGT instead of THC and he said it was a mistake (I had another in hand that he did not know about).
-I faced Elves, and the game I got THC was unbelievable: Me first: Aether Vial, him land Llanowar Elf. Me:TGT, him: land Zenith for an Elf - Heritage I think. Me:THC, Mystic for Jitte. He looks at his hand and can't believe what the board state is now. He Hoofed on his turn three, but it did not do much because only two Elves were untapped and I had my first strike wall. I missed my next land drop, but I got Jitte on the turn after and it was over soon after.

Looking pretty solid, boys.

What did you end up cutting to make space for her?

[Finn]

What did you end up cutting to make space for her?It's on the front page. A place to start.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor

Just note that this deck smokes the legendary crack pipe kinda hard. So you are going to have duplicates in hand kinda often. It's what I am testing. Do as you will with the rest.

Hey also, can one of you imperialists give us an up-to-date 75 for me to post on the OP.

[Stevestamopz]

Hey also, can one of you imperialists give us an up-to-date 75 for me to post on the OP.

NMKS' GP Prague list looks like a good place to start (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273420)

[mykatdied]

It's on the front page. A place to start.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor

Just note that this deck smokes the legendary crack pipe kinda hard. So you are going to have duplicates in hand kinda often. It's what I am testing. Do as you will with the rest.

Hey also, can one of you imperialists give us an up-to-date 75 for me to post on the OP.

I usually post on the mtgsalvation dnt forum. But I figured that I would chime in since new thalia is being posted about.

I was considering a very similar build to this and recently acquired a 4th karakas. Do you think it would make sense to try and swing a brimaz in place of 1 heretic? Do to the increase in the amount of times you will draw multiples of legendary creatures and since you are heavier on threes vial seems like it will go there often and 4 new thalia seems a bit much. I may be wrong in thinking this, but it seems like there could be a lot of points where splitting up your legendary creature suite a bit more could be a better route to take.

[Finn]

NMKS' GP Prague list looks like a good place to start (http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12671&d=273420)

Thanks. I posted that. Is that person a poster on this thread, so that I can give credit?

Also, I saw Crackdown there. That seems like a mean card with THC.

[Barook]

Also, I saw Crackdown there. That seems like a mean card with THC.
Don't forget to test Winter Orb in the board. Hokori would be fetchable with Recruiter, but is too expensive imho.

[iatee]

Finn, the poster goes by nmks.

Hokori almost seems playable, but there are so many better 4 drops. It doesn't even have flying, and it feels like it should.

I tested Imperial with 3 Thalia 2.0 vs UR Delver and Lands pre-board.

Vs UR Delver - Thalia 2.0 was generally too slow to be relevant, which is probably to be expected.

Vs Lands - Thalia 2.0 was a pretty solid way to buy time, Magus was still the follow up card that eventually won the games so I don't know how those games translate for Mono-W - but I was generally happy to see her.

[zebhillard]

I ran the same list as I did in Columbus (on page 307, post #6129) -1 Serra Avenger main, +1 Flickerwisp. -1 Path to Exile -1 Cataclysm in the board, +1 Gideon, +1 Sword of War and Peace (our last big Legacy event had 4 Death and Taxes players and multiple Maverick). Also, I'm typing this up from memory, having left my sideboard notes in my bag.

Round 1: Jund (2-0, 1-0 Matches)
Game 1 we jockeyed for position for a while before I was able to close things up with a Batterskull. Game 2 wasn't even magic. He mulled to 6 and I kept a Wasteland x3, Vial, Plains, Swords, Thalia hand. He was never in it and I just dispensed dorks through Vial until I draw Port on turn 6 or 7.
SB - In: Gideon, Path, WLL, 2 RiP. Out: 2 Mangaras, 2 Avengers, one Revoker
Round 2: UG Titan 12 Post (2-1, 2-0 Matches)
He's on a somewhat budget build, as I saw Breeding Pools and not a full set of Trops. Game one turn 1 he Needles Wasteland and I failed to shut down his lands adequately enough and he hardcast Emerakul with Karakas in play. Game two and three I am able to stifle his development with Revoker on Map and Judgement away his Needle on Wasteland to go nuts destroying his development while deploying threats via vial and removing Primeval Titans as they're cast.
SB - In: Needle, 2 C Judgement, Out: 2 Avengers, 1 Displacer

Round 3: Reanimator (2-0, 3-0 Matches)
I had Karakas in hand g1 and knew what he was on, he also Mulled to 4. A non-interactive game. Game 2 he mulled again, but I had all the hate.
SB: In: 2 RiPs, Cage, 2 Priests, Needle, Out: 2 SfM, Jitte, SoWaP, 2 Mom

Round 4: Shardless (0-2, 3-1 Matches)
I was paired down against a 2-1 this round, so we had to play. Luck had to run out at some point. I mulligan into oblivion both games and despite Swords on both of his turn 1 Deathrites and Wasteland follow-ups, he was able to grind me out in short order.
SB: In: 2 Gideon, 2 RiP, WLL, Path, Out: 1 StP, 2 Mangaras, 3 other Cards

Round 5: I was still able to ID into the Top 8 as 5th Seed (3-1-1 Matches)

Top 8: Eldrazi (2-1, 4-1-1 Matches)
Game 1 he runs me over with t1 Mimic, t2 Reality Smasher, t2 Smasher and I can't fight against it. Game 2 I am able to fight the early game and his Matter Reshapers don't give him anything good. Flickerwisp closes out the game with a Jitte after removing troublesome Endless Ones. Game 3 he starts blazing fast, but I am able to suffer the initial assault and he starts drawing dead. I board into big guys but don't get the chance to live the dream by putting WLL in off a Reality Smasher removal spell. I continue my streak of winning out over Eldrazi.
SB: In: Path, 2 Gideon, 2 Judgments, Needle, WLL, Out: 4 Moms, 2 Thalia

Top 4: Maverick ((2-0, 5-1-1 Matches)
Honestly, I just drew the absolute nut in both games, and his draws weren't able to keep up. Game 1 was finished by Voltroning up a Batterskull with both Sword and Jitte, and in game 2 I kept a very risky 1 Land + Vial hand that could have fell apart if he had accelleration into Pridemage. He had one, but not the other, and I just drew everything that I needed when I needed it. I close out game two after he Sudden Shocks in response to an equip up having the 4th land necessary to reequip Sword and swing into killing his board. Displacer is an all-star in this match.
SB: In: 2 C Priest, Cage, Needle, Path, Out: 4 Thalia, 1 Mangara

Finals: Omni-Sneak
I was watching their t4 match play out and he managed to win over Lands. I'm so very happy because I would much rather play a game I'm exceptionally favored in than run up against combo lands, which I haven't played as of yet.
Game 1 I manage to get a quick start and Karakas into play naturally on t2, with a second in my hand just in case. He isn't able to do anything and I never tap my Karakas to do anything, living off of vial and a few value lands, swinging for 4 a turn with Factory and Thalia. Game 2 I make a huge punt, and instead of winning the game, let him through for 7 with Griselbrand once, he then cheats in Emerakul and I can't stop the Annihilator. Game 3 is another example of me having it all. T1 Vial, T2 Priest (he Forces), T3 Thalia with Karakas open. He plops blood moon and then Intuitions for 3 Omni at the end of my t3 and shows on his t4 and I put in Flickerwish for his Omniscience, then Vial in Mangara. My turn I kill Omni and just keep swinging for 5 to win with plenty of ways to remove moon when necessary.
SB: In: 2 C Priest, 2 Canonist (he was running the Omni wish cantrip board package), 1 C Judgment, Out: 2 Avenger, 1 SfM, 2 Mom

All in all, I left with a sweet custom playmat showcasing last months winner, the knowledge my beautiful mug will be on next months playmat, and a decent amount of store credit, some of which I used to pick up a swanky Winter Mishra's Factory from the store the event was held in.

[Finn]

Thanks for the report, Zeb. I fear those Omniscience decks. I have not faced the hybrid ones with Sneak attack though. Does anyone have anything to report on that matchup? how does it go?

----------

I got some more testing with Thalia, Heretic Cathar.

1. Only particularly good against Elves g1 if you also have Swords to Plowshares. G2/3, you also need another speedbump, but there are a lot more in your deck.
2. This card is just stupid mid-late. Wasteland on a fetchland - that would otherwise save an opponent - is just backbreaking. I can't say enough for how powerful it is to destroy a land that they have not used yet.
3. I am running four proxies. Interestingly, four feels wrong mostly because she costs three, not because of the legend issue. I'm always happy to have it in my opening 7, but two copies has been kinda topheavy for the mana curve. Not sure what to do about that.

[Vandalize]

Thalia 2.0 is so good! It's another annoying creature for the ultimate AnnoyingCreatures.dec, she'll replace other three drops for sure.

My list will most likely be:

Lands [22]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand

Creatures [27]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Mangara of Conrodor/Kor Skyfisher
1 Mirran Crusader

Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard [15]
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Rest in Peace
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgement
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Containment Priest
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Wear/Tear

Sudden Demise was removed from sideboard due to the low count of Elves in my meta, but it's a great card.

[Barook]

3. I am running four proxies. Interestingly, four feels wrong mostly because she costs three, not because of the legend issue. I'm always happy to have it in my opening 7, but two copies has been kinda topheavy for the mana curve. Not sure what to do about that.
Maybe add accel like Chrome Mox, which can also get rid off excess legends?

One could also try to dig out my Noble Hierarch build again (both Neo Thalia and Hierarch are humans for Cavern and Exalted on a 3/2 First Striker sounds sexy).

[zebhillard]

Thanks for the report, Zeb. I fear those Omniscience decks. I have not faced the hybrid ones with Sneak attack though. Does anyone have anything to report on that matchup? how does it go?

The 4th Flickerwisp helped alleviate a lot of my concern in the match, and along with Displacer gave me the potential line of blinking their Omniscience out during their upkeep if it became necessary to take that route. My wins have all had some luck factor in with with (having Karakas in my opener, them not having a counter for my CJ on my turn when Omni comes back into play, no Wish for a removal spell to get rid of Containment Priest or Revoker that is shutting off Sneak Attack). I generally just try my best to keep them off of double-red by Revoker on Lotus Petal or forcing them to use mana during their upkeep so there's less surprise from two monsters swinging in on the same turn and overloading a Karakas.

All that goes out the window if they manage to stick a Omniscience, though. Just keep the fingers and toes crossed.

[iatee]

I played Imperial to 6-3 at Worcester, missed d2. This tournament was not a great field for DnT, nobody t32d and I didn't see any DnT near the top tables. I had a friend on Mono-W who was unlucky enough to play Elves both r1 and r2, I played it once. In addition to Elves, Infect and Lands were also everywhere and there was relatively little Delver to prey on.

My main had 3 SfM + 3 equipment, flex spots were Wingmare, Skyfisher, Fiend Hunter, Mangara.

Sb:
3 Path
Relic Warder
Mirran Crusader
Fiendslayer Paladin
Cunning Sparkmage
Faerie Macabre
Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
Pia/Kiran
2 Ethersworn
1 extra Magus

Put the extra Magus in expecting Lands/Eldrazi but didn't see either once. Counting the 15 I played at Columbus and the 9 I played at Eternal Extravaganza, I've now gone 33 rounds without seeing Storm. Not that it has totally disappeared (I was staying with 2 Storm players actually) but it kinda shows what Eldrazi has done to the format. Only 2 copies of Storm made d2.

r1 Burn (1-0)

Won g1 off Recruiter for SfM. Fiendslayer in my opening hand g2 seemed promising, but lost to Ensnaring Bridge, Ensnaring Bridge + empty his hand + play lots of lands. Boarded back into 4 Recruiters + Mangara + Relic Warder...if Burn wants to durdle, I know how to durdle...G3 I kept a loose 6 off an Aether Vial and managed to get there off mana denial + Recruitering for a Fiendslayer Paladin.

r2 Zoo (2-0)

Guy playing his friend's deck - second matchup that is bad (any Chain Lightning matchup is bad) but he didn't play optimally since he was new to the deck. Won g1 by racing with flyers and Fiend Hunter blocking + eating Kird Apes. Lost g2 to Goyf + Ghor-Clan Rampager + Bolt Bolt. Won g3 with Jitte + Fiendslayer Paladin. Having 3 Paths was nice. Fiend Hunter not being Banisher Priest was important for keeping Kird Apes at bay.

r3 Miracles (3-0)

Won g1 with an early Magus keeping him off white. Lost g2 to Counterbalance-lock cause I never drew a Cavern or Vial, scooped to Jace so I would have enough time to win g3. Won g3 after he Forced my t1 Vial because Counterbalance lock is really bad when I actually do have a Cavern, which is most of the time...

r4 Sneak and Show (4-0)

Won g1 without a Karakas or Revoker by just having a lot of mana denial. He boarded into Monastery Mentor/Nahiri/Jace and had a t2 Jace, which really didn't matter because Brainstorming every turn isn't particularly scary when you're drawing cards that aren't powerful against DnT. He tapped out for a Sneak Attack then I Sfm'd a Batterskull, Sfm'd a Sofi and killed him.

r5 Stoneblade/Miracles hybrid w/ 4 TNN 4 SFM (4-1)

Won g1 with Flickerwisps keeping him off Batterskull and tempoing him out. Lost g2 to a TNN+Batterskull. G3 I had him at effectively 1 life before he had TNN + Jitte. Whenever you get someone to 1 life in a grindy game you wonder if there was a spot you coulda played differently, but I don't think there was. 4 SFM 4 TNN is very good against us and he played well. At one point g2 I was 90% he had a Terminus on top of his library, so I Flickerwisp targeting Flickerwisp on my main phase, hoping to blank his white source next turn, but he saw the play and STP'd the targeted Flickerwisp and the Terminus next turn was a one-for-one.

He had a lot of SB cards for the matchup and brought in Back to Basics, which I saw g2/3, a little annoying, didn't really matter g2 because TNN+Batterskull is impossible to race, but mattered a little g3 as I couldn't Port him and my Vial was Needled.

r6 Elves (4-2)

A friend played him previously so I knew I was playing Elves. Lose g1 on the draw before I take my third turn. G2 I have a strong hand - Aether Vial, STP, Canonist, Magus. Magus slowed him down a lot and the game went to something like t10, but I drew almost nothing but lands. Eventually drew a Sfm but he had Wirewood + Rec Sage and I drew nothing to interact with it. I think I was actually quite favored from turn 3 on if you looked at the board (Vial/Canonist/Magus) there were probably about 5 draw steps where I needed to draw one of ten cards to start pressing an advantage - sometimes you just draw poorly.

r7 12-Post (4-3)

I'd played this guy before, so again I knew what I was playing. 12-Post is a very favorable matchup but you have to know what their list looks like to play optimally and they always switch things up. That is an real advantage to decks that haven't been or can't be optimized, but it disappears as soon as you actually know what their list looks like.

I have a Vial g1 that gets shut off by a Pithing Needle and I never draw a red card. Eventually SfM in a Sofi instead of porting him, which gives him the chance to play a Titan. I think I still had to do it since I just can't sit there doing 1 damage a turn and I wasn't drawing Wastelands or red cards. G2 my first Magus gets Song of Dryad'd, marking the first time I've seen that card played outside of cube. I Recruited for another and kill him with a bunch of creatures.

G3 I have a strong hand, t2 Relic Warder I have to choose between eating Candelabra and Map - I take the map because I have t3 Magus and can take him off colored mana now - based on what I knew, he needed colored mana to interact with Magus. Candel is dangerous though, so it's not an easy choice. But this time he had Dismember in hand for my Magus, and could Candelabra out an Ugin before I could get another Magus in play. I tutor for a Revoker, since my 2nd Magus in hand will just die to Ugin, and he Crop Rotates/Candles/Eye of Ugins for Emrakul. I almost certainly win that game with a t1 Mom or t1 Vial, also pretty sure I win if I'm on the play since I could get a second Magus out before he had time to have fun, similar to g2. It would have been a different game if I ate his Candel but I think he still could come up with the mana for Ugin with a million Posts.

r8 Pox (5-3)

Two uncompetitive games, g1 was just a bunch of land destruction vs me after I had a clock, g2 he played a t1 Chalice into Trinisphere but never drew black sources and I killed him with Mirran Crusader.

r9 Bug Delver (6-3)

I think I played fine all day, I boarded out a copy of Mom vs 12-Post when I probably should have kept all 4, but other than that I wouldn't have made any decision differently.

I spoke with well known DnT player M Derczo a little bit, he was playing Imperial. He thought 3 SfM was crazy (as did hill_giant when I saw him at GP Columbus) and I think they're probably right. Both of those guys were playing Sword of War and Peace in the board and I get the sense that I should probably give that card more of a chance. Derczo was also playing Gideons and said the card was great. I don't know if we need it as much as Mono-W does, but maybe the card is too good not to play? I just hate SB cards that can't be tutored for, and I don't feel like I need to patch up slow matchups as much as I need to patch up fast ones.

[deucegg]

Hey guys, what's your sideboarding plan vs Shardless? (+/- Enevoldsen list)

Do you board out couple Mother of Runes and Revokers and Spirit of the Lab for RiP, Relic, CJ, Path?

[iatee]

On page 308 Enevoldsen posted his SB plan for Shardless.

[Klirre]

I played Imperial to 6-3 at Worcester....

Thanks for the report, great read as always.

If you would go up to 4 sfm main again, what would you cut? I really want to make room for the 4th, but at the same time I like having Fiend Hunter, Skyfisher and Mangara main. It's also hard cutting something from the SB, I suppose my 2nd Crusader could be the least necessary card. You only played one, was that enough vs. BUG-decks?

[Barook]

I'd like to point out that nonland mana source + Thalia 2.0 + Winter Orb + Port is a very strong lock. Not unbeatable (Wasteland and cheap instant speed removal could still beat it), but might be something interesting against decks where you want to bring in Winter Orb anyway.

Magical Christmasland would look like this (on the play):

T1 Cavern, Noble Hierarch
T2 Port Thalia 2.0
T3 Winter Orb, land, start tapping down their lands with Port

[iatee]

Winter Orb + Port is not actually the greatest combo...

Klirre, I dunno what to cut, it's tough. There's tension between wanting to play the reliable DnT game and having access to a great tutorboard main. Perhaps Mangara or Bskull could be SB.

It looks like I accidentally deleted my 9th round, here's what I meant to write about BUG Delver, relates to your question on Crusader:

"G1 I have the perfect hand on the play with t1 vial into Mom, Thalia, Magus, with Fiend Hunter for his Goyf. G2 I get Hymn'd but had removal for all his creatures, RiP + Magus. Post-board with this build I have 4 STP, 3 Path, 2 RIP, 3 Magus, Crusader, Paladin and the tutors which just makes this particular matchup super lopsided. I board'd out every white x/1 that wasn't Mom. (Protects Magus.) This is the second time I've played Bug Delver w/ 3 Paths in the board and it just feels like the single relevant card they could play is True Name Nemesis. I played it last week and pretty easily won through a t2 Dread of Night because he couldn't stick a threat."

Overall Magus is scarier for BUG decks than Crusader since one of them is a TNN and the other is just game over. Because of that, playing multiple Crusaders has actually more relevant for my non-BUG matchups where the protection doesn't matter and you really want a fast clock (Merfolk, Miracles).

[Stevestamopz]

Good report as usual Iatee.

I don't think 3 SFM is that crazy, on the contrary I think it makes perfect sense with 3 Recruiters; there comes a point when SFM become squire, and we hit that point a lot more in Imp Taxes than WW does. Also the deck needs less 1/X creatures, (it's glutted with them already) so SFM #4 is the perfect shave.

Imperial Taxes kills a lot of sacred cows, and I think this is just another one.

I've been playing a Sword of Light and Shadow in the sb with the usual 3 maindeck equipment, and I like it quite a lot. Arguments can of course be made for the War and Peace but I quite like rebuying creatures I've either thrown under the bus on purpose or I've killed with my own equipment to rebuy.

On the topic of another sacred cow to fry up, I'm trying 2 Kor Skyfishers, cutting the 3rd Revoker (which everyone seems to have done). That card has been phenomenal so often that I wanted a 2nd one.

[MasterBlaster]

I'm slowly buying into a D&T build. Angel Stompy was my 1st good magic deck back in the day and I look forward to playing the new top white weenie deck of Legacy. With that being said I have some questions for people familiar with the deck.

For the decks that have 4 Karakas and 8 Thalia, how often are you left with dead cards in hand?

Does Flickerwisp seem lackluster without an Aether Vial at 3?

What are the most broken/memorable plays you have had with this deck?

Any unusual deck choices that you swear by?

Thanks ahead of time for answers!

[Tylert]

I'm slowly buying into a D&T build. Angel Stompy was my 1st good magic deck back in the day and I look forward to playing the new top white weenie deck of Legacy. With that being said I have some questions for people familiar with the deck.

For the decks that have 4 Karakas and 8 Thalia, how often are you left with dead cards in hand?

Does Flickerwisp seem lackluster without an Aether Vial at 3?

What are the most broken/memorable plays you have had with this deck?

Any unusual deck choices that you swear by?

Thanks ahead of time for answers!

Fickerwisp is never dead. It's a 3 power flyer that can hold equipement and cost effectively 2 if you don't have a target for it. It allows you to port your opponent when you have only 4 mana available.

Most broken play: Surviving 3 show and tell in row (my opponent dropped Emrakul each time) with back to basics on the battlefield and an attack from Emrakul :) (It includes drawing 3 karakas and a flickerwisp)

[Bosque]

For the decks that have 4 Karakas and 8 Thalia, how often are you left with dead cards in hand?

I haven't played with Heretic yet, so I can't say.


Does Flickerwisp seem lackluster without an Aether Vial at 3?

It's certainly less good, but I've definitely hardcast it to disable a Chalice on 1 so I could StP something, or to remove a blocker for a turn so I could swing, or to play a 3 drop flier and still Port with 4 land out by blinking a land. It gets way better with vial though.


What are the most broken/memorable plays you have had with this deck?

Most fun I can remember is surviving an Emrakul swing, then winning by Flickerwisping it out of the way for 3 turns and racing. Also had some hillariously good times playing hour long grindfests against RIP/Energy Field Miracles, and the same against BUG Nic Fit with Pod. None of our plays are actually that broken, we just eek things out. Unless it's UR Delver, and then boy what we do is broken a lot of the time.


Any unusual deck choices that you swear by?

I still like Mangara.

[zebhillard]

For the decks that have 4 Karakas and 8 Thalia, how often are you left with dead cards in hand?
I haven't made the move to additional Thalia's yet, but when I do it'll likely only be 2 after trimming a Displacer and going down to one Mangara.


Does Flickerwisp seem lackluster without an Aether Vial at 3?
Previously I only ran 3 Flickerwisp, but recently made the move up to 4 after Eldrazi started becoming more prominent in my area. Resetting Chalice and killing Endless One/Hangarback Walker is always nice, and there are some moments where you can kill off a Mox Diamond or just cast it on turn 3 while still ending up with W free for StP or giving yourself an untapped Karakas against Sneak and Show.


What are the most broken/memorable plays you have had with this deck?
I don't recall ever doing anything 'broken' as it's normally defined. There are just times where the deck fires on all cylinders and does what it's supposed to do in buying you enough time to attach an equipment to a creature, or establish a Mangara-lock on an opponent, and the game ends up feeling very unfair or one-sided. Putting together Displacer + Containment Priest is a wondrous feeling, however.


Any unusual deck choices that you swear by?
I'm running almost entirely the 3 Displacer / 2 Mangara build that won the Classic in Atlanta with a Ghost Quarter in the main and 2 Path to Exile in the board. Sometimes they're great, but rarely are they just meaningless.[/QUOTE]

[Finn]

MasterBlaster, Brad Nelson did a cool video against Goblins a long time ago. I enjoyed hearing him cackle.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26666_Video-Death-And-Taxes-In-Legacy.html

I could not get the video to load. Hrmph

EDIT: I mention this because the deck was entirely unfair to the Goblins player.

[colo]

I just posted a few lines over at mtgsalvation, and since the two sites have a somewhat disjunct audience, I thought I'd dish up some copypasta in here:

I piloted a list of Imperial Taxes to a 3-0 finish at our local Sunday Legacy yesterday, beating Elves! (2-1), Elves! (2-1), and Lands (2-1). My list, subtly tweaked to the expected metagame:


4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Kor Skyfisher
1 Fiendslayer Paladin
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Flooded Strand
3 Plateau
2 Plains
3 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Windswept Heath


Sideboard:

3 Sudden Demise
2 Rest in Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Cataclysm
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
1 Containment Priest


A few new things became apparent to me while battling through the hordes of green woodfolk, and I thought I might share: It's positively _amazing_ how much a Land->Aether Vial->Rishadan Port start can do for you in this matchup. I know this is pretty much what you wish for against most opponents, but I won three games mostly on the back of this kind of disruptive start against the two elves players, without actually seeing StP (but Equipment later on) in these games at all. Once you have a Vial at three, don't hesitate to flicker lands away as a means of temporary mana denial to hamper their board development during your end step or their upkeep. Don't get too greedy with Sudden Demise; trading 2-for-1 can absolutely be enough to set up a win. Aven Mindcensor does a lot in this matchup (virtually guarantees Jitte counters due to flying, cripples their Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith and Fetchlands, and catches them by surprise).

Lands was, of course, totally dominated by Magus of the Moon. The fact that Magus off of Vial in response to Punishing Fire shuts off that one copy's recursion is back-breakingly important for both players to keep in mind. As an aside, my favourite moment of the match: Opponent's board consisting of Grove of the Burnwillows, Thespian's Stage and another Land, with a Punishing Fire in the graveyard that's threatening to deal with all my threats. My board: 2 Plains, 1 Cavern. Play Wasteland, sac to destroy his Grove - opponent responds by copying Grove via Stage. Stack resolves. Cast Flickerwisp, targeting the Stage-acting-as-if-it-were-Grove - his eyes widened a fair bit at that point :)

[iatee]

That's a cool list, I like the deep tutorboard main.

[colo]

Thanks, it's mostly based off one of those awesome lists you posted earlier in this thread :)

I found myself having vast amounts of trouble lately with beating Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay and Sylvan Library, which is why I opted for Leonin Relic-Warder and Fiendslayer Paladin (also helps against burn, at least if you're on the play) main. Both admittedly didn't do much in the games I played on Sunday, but I think I'll continue with this configuration for now; I'm pretty sure it's the right call for my local meta.

What I'm still unsure about is whether or not I want to replace the third Plateau with a third Cavern of Souls. I haven't seen Counterbalance a lot here lately, and esp. post-board, it really pays off to have non-critter-only red mana sometimes (and I'm thinking I'll never leave the house again without at least three Sudden Demise!). That being said, have you guys ever used the built-in shock that Pia and Kiran's Thopter tokens come with?

[iatee]

Yeah I've been seeing a lot of Elves lately too, dunno why, the deck seems poorly positioned. In any case I might be breaking out the Sudden Demises too. Imperial can win that matchup, I just hate using so much of my sideboard space for it.

2 Caverns is fine if you're not seeing a lot of Miracles. I like going up on fetches more than going up on Plateaus though. Having no basics in your opening hand leaves you weak to Wasteland and you don't need a red source until late most games, sometimes never.

I've mostly used Pia/Kiran's shock to do damage to the face, though I've killed some creatures here and there. Generally if that card resolves you're gonna win one way or another, it's just such a powerhouse and it affects the game on so many dimensions. Flyers, direct damage, legendary, going wide.

[Curby]

For the decks that have 4 Karakas and 8 Thalia, how often are you left with dead cards in hand?

Are there such decks? Most folks run 3 Karakas these days, though I can imagine Legends-heavy decks in Reanimator-heavy metas that might choose to run 4. Anyone?


Winter Orb + Port is not actually the greatest combo...

It really isn't, but I have a coolstorybro. Forgot what the deck was, but they dropped Worb against me. I raised my eyebrows in surprise since I was the mana denial deck, and proceeded to take over the game by untapping Port and laying a land each turn, and using Vial to land creatures and Port to keep them off mana. Then when I ran out of land, I Flickered his Worb to allow me to untap. Using an opponent's sideboard card against them feels really good. Anyway.


MasterBlaster, Brad Nelson did a cool video against Goblins a long time ago. I enjoyed hearing him cackle.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26666_Video-Death-And-Taxes-In-Legacy.html

I could not get the video to load. Hrmph

They're hosting the video on blip.tv, which is no longer a thing: https://variety.com/2015/digital/news/disney-owned-maker-studios-shuts-down-pioneering-video-site-blip-1201575041/

Teach them to not use youtube. :tongue:

[infiniteJ]

I have a big tournament this weekend with no time to test :( does anyone have any experience with the new Thalia? Great or not much better than other disruptive 3s? I really liked displacer the one time I used it and I'd have to cut some for new Thalia.

[iatee]

It's probably not worse than Displacer, at the very least.

Tonight I had an interesting keep, wondering what people think of it.

Vs. Unknown deck. Friend who lately plays mostly Grixis Delver, sometimes Reanimator, MUD a while back, known for playing Stax (recently Eldrazi Stax) in Vintage.

I'm on the play. I mull one land hand to 6, he mulls too. My 6 is Vial Vial SFM Thalia Flickerwisp STP. I keep, scry non-land to the bottom, pass. He's playing Eldrazi and t1 Chalices me, game over. (I did draw a land t2.)

So is that keep greedy or actually a pretty rational decision? 42% of the rest of my deck is lands, I get a scry - so I have a high likelihood to have one on the top two. I also have 2 Vials, so if one is Forced, Dazed, whatever, I still can cast a backup. In the best case scenario I have double Vial going, which is super powerful with Imperial, which has a higher curve and can cheat on a ton of mana. I'm also on the play, so I'm not really falling behind by missing one land drop. Even if I play no lands for the first 2 turns I'm not totally out of the game.

The alternative is mull to 5. Mulling to 5 on the play gives you a good chance at having an unplayable hand, the chances of Vial + at least one land is down to something like 25%. Lots of potential garbage hands in a 5 (no lands, Bskull in hand, no white sources, double Thalia, etc) And even when you have a playable fair hand the card disadvantage comes to haunt you. Mulliganing is its own form of greediness.

So I *think* the keep was correct vs unknown opponent. It might even be correct vs Eldrazi, even with the risk of t1 Chalice, since if they don't have it double Vial gives you a lot of game, but I'm less sure there. This isn't the first 0 land Vial hand I've kept on the play thanks to the scry rule. G2/G3 or against any deck that maindecks Needle or Revoker that keep is probably too risky, but g1 on the play I think I like it even though I got super punished. It's also possible that this keep is more rational with Imperial than Mono-W, as Vial on 3 + drawing into Recruiter lets you do pretty powerful things, whereas Mono-W is a little less dependent on Vial and can attempt to grind out some fair game off 5 cards with Serra Avengers or whatever.

[subzero]

hi guys!!

i m new with this deck!!

someone have already studied a list with new thalia,
i think is great card for this nice deck,
especially against lands and eldrazi,

also, i started play, but still not palyed against some match up,

how is match up against eldrazi, ?

[redtwister]

@iatee
I'm going with "super greedy". Sure, we run a lot of lands, but we also mulligan very well (well, I haven't actually mulliganed as frequently with Imperial, but WW mulligans very well and not being willing to mulligan aggressively is a common mistake with DnT.)

Also, IMO the mulligan scry is never a good reason to keep a hand you wouldn't have kept before the scry rule. I always ask myself if I would keep it without the scry, and if I say no, I mulligan.

[iatee]

That logic doesn't make any sense to me. The scry rule changes the game's statistics so drastically that pretending like it doesn't exist is just not playing optimally. Without the scry rule, the top card of my deck is 42% to be a land. So the majority of the times that keep would result in me being punished and the keep would be extremely loose. With the scry rule, I have something closer to a 70% chance at hitting a land. And Land Vial Vial Thalia STP SFM Flickerwisp would be a pretty decent keep if we just pretend I'm on the draw - plus my opponent mulliganned. So it's a 70% chance at a pretty solid double vial hand on the draw vs a 100% chance of having a 5 card hand on the play.

[MTGeezy]

It's probably not worse than Displacer, at the very least.

Tonight I had an interesting keep, wondering what people think of it.

Vs. Unknown deck. Friend who lately plays mostly Grixis Delver, sometimes Reanimator, MUD a while back, known for playing Stax (recently Eldrazi Stax) in Vintage.

I'm on the play. I mull one land hand to 6, he mulls too. My 6 is Vial Vial SFM Thalia Flickerwisp STP. I keep, scry non-land to the bottom, pass. He's playing Eldrazi and t1 Chalices me, game over. (I did draw a land t2.)

So is that keep greedy or actually a pretty rational decision? 42% of the rest of my deck is lands, I get a scry - so I have a high likelihood to have one on the top two. I also have 2 Vials, so if one is Forced, Dazed, whatever, I still can cast a backup. In the best case scenario I have double Vial going, which is super powerful with Imperial, which has a higher curve and can cheat on a ton of mana. I'm also on the play, so I'm not really falling behind by missing one land drop. Even if I play no lands for the first 2 turns I'm not totally out of the game.

The alternative is mull to 5. Mulling to 5 on the play gives you a good chance at having an unplayable hand, the chances of Vial + at least one land is down to something like 25%. Lots of potential garbage hands in a 5 (no lands, Bskull in hand, no white sources, double Thalia, etc) And even when you have a playable fair hand the card disadvantage comes to haunt you. Mulliganing is its own form of greediness.

So I *think* the keep was correct vs unknown opponent. It might even be correct vs Eldrazi, even with the risk of t1 Chalice, since if they don't have it double Vial gives you a lot of game, but I'm less sure there. This isn't the first 0 land Vial hand I've kept on the play thanks to the scry rule. G2/G3 or against any deck that maindecks Needle or Revoker that keep is probably too risky, but g1 on the play I think I like it even though I got super punished. It's also possible that this keep is more rational with Imperial than Mono-W, as Vial on 3 + drawing into Recruiter lets you do pretty powerful things, whereas Mono-W is a little less dependent on Vial and can attempt to grind out some fair game off 5 cards with Serra Avengers or whatever.

Super greedy. Even if I was drunk I wouldn't keep that.

[iatee]

Well, do you have any reasoning to back it up?

Anyway, that's the 3rd time I've kept a Vial mull with no land post-scry rule. In all cases it was on the play, I don't think you can ever do it on the draw.

First time - beat Eldrazi.

Second time - lost to Infect by a turn, but would have won easily if I drew a white source in my top 3. (Hand was something like 3 STP Vial, Fiend Hunter, something).

This time - punished by Chalice, would have been interesting to see how the game went otherwise.

In all cases my alternative was going to 4 or 5, where your general expected win percentage is already down to like 20/25%. Even though it seems like a cowboy move, the cost of taking this risk is actually not that high.

[Curby]

That logic doesn't make any sense to me. The scry rule changes the game's statistics so drastically that pretending like it doesn't exist is just not playing optimally. Without the scry rule, the top card of my deck is 42% to be a land. So the majority of the times that keep would result in me being punished and the keep would be extremely loose. With the scry rule, I have something closer to a 70% chance at hitting a land. And Land Vial Vial Thalia STP SFM Flickerwisp would be a pretty decent keep if we just pretend I'm on the draw - plus my opponent mulliganned. So it's a 70% chance at a pretty solid double vial hand on the draw vs a 100% chance of having a 5 card hand on the play.

/shrug. You asked a question, people answered. I agree with their take. I wouldn't keep a 0-land 6-card hand either, even if it had three 1-drops. FWIW you have a 92% chance of opening on at least 1 land out of 23 if you mull twice.

People have different takes on risk, and what they like to get out of a game. If you had ripped a land, you might well have gone on to win that game, and had a cool story to tell. That's not my style, so I wouldn't do it, but I'm not bothered if you'd do it the same way again.

You asked, we answered. Our answers don't have to agree. :cool:

[iatee]

I mean I just don't think "I always ask myself if I would keep it without the scry, and if I say no, I mulligan." is a particularly rational decision for someone looking to maximize the number of games they win.

While you do have a pretty high likelihood of hitting at least one land on a mull to 5, you only have a 25% shot of hitting a land + Vial, which is really the only powerful mull to 5 and even then you've given up some of the advantage of Vial because your hand is pretty empty.

I know we don't have to agree, and maybe there is some amount of risk profile here, but I'm genuinely not even sure what I'm doing is more risky than what you're doing if you tally everything up.

[iatee]

After talking about this with some friends I realized I was wrong about the 'worse on the draw' aspect of this for a few reasons:

1. For some reason I was visualizing them hitting two land drops before you hit one if you do this on the draw, but that's just not true. You're (70% of the time) drawing and playing a land at normal tempo if you do this on the draw
2. One thing you're doing when you do this on the play is giving up 'the play' which is almost painfully valuable in legacy and in some matchups (e.g. Storm) worth more than a card.

[mykatdied]

I don't think I would ever keep a 0 land 6 card hand with taxes. My reasoning is
1. I want to get vial down asap, our deck operates much better the earlier we get vials online.

2. I want land as well. In my experience with death and taxes I have found many times that not having the correct amount of land to play threats, cast non creature spells like swords through a thalia or suit up with equipment then my deck is running slow and I'm only making things worse by giving my opponent time.

3. Top deck non basic into vial can easily lead to daze your first vial into wasteland your land, then you are back to square 1 minus 2 cards. Even if you top deck a basic and your opponent is in fact on a delver variant they could potentially turn 1 delver, daze your vial, turn 2 flip delver with force/pierce/daze back up for your second vial if you are still stuck on land, then you are really behind and climbing back is a concern.

4. This last one kind of shoots any reasoning you might have had in keeping that hand since you know your opponent. If I am against a known prison player he is very likely going to turn 1 a chalice at 1 or Trinisphere which locks you our for at least 2 if not 3 more turns. The more time you give those decks to set up, the worse things can get for you. In my experience against stompy or stax variants, they usually will keep a hand that either puts a chalice at 1 turn 1, or a Trinisphere by turn 2. The fact that you know your opponent favors those kind of decks is an even worse reason to ever keep a hand like that. The fact that you are on the play and guaranteed to not draw a land for turn 1 makes it even worse for you.

On a side note:
I keep a lot of really appealing 1 land hands and get punished regularly whether I play 23, 24 or even 29 lands when I'm on post. Playing the odds like that will get you countless game losses that are unnecessary in a deck that, as redtwister stated, mulligans very well.

[iatee]

I don't think I would ever keep a 0 land 6 card hand with taxes. My reasoning is
1. I want to get vial down asap, our deck operates much better the earlier we get vials online.

That's my logic too, which is why I think a 70% chance at a t2 Vial is better than a 25% chance of a t1 Vial. (And If this keep were on the draw it would be a 70% chance at a t1 Vial.)



2. I want land as well. In my experience with death and taxes I have found many times that not having the correct amount of land to play threats, cast non creature spells like swords through a thalia or suit up with equipment then my deck is running slow and I'm only making things worse by giving my opponent time.

Sure, lands are good, everyone likes lands, but card advantage is also relevant in legacy, and we don't have many ways to make up for starting a game with 2/3 fewer cards. (Imperial has far more, but also is more punished for being land light.)



3. Top deck non basic into vial can easily lead to daze your first vial into wasteland your land, then you are back to square 1 minus 2 cards. Even if you top deck a basic and your opponent is in fact on a delver variant they could potentially turn 1 delver, daze your vial, turn 2 flip delver with force/pierce/daze back up for your second vial if you are still stuck on land, then you are really behind and climbing back is a concern.

This is a risk for sure (and I was even guessing he was playing Delver) but mulliganing to 5 is also a risk. If the numbers I've seen from other formats are anything to go by, your EW % is already down to something like 20-25% when you go to 5 on the play. It's not that you *can't* win off 5s and have great hands, but you're not throwing away some huge chance at winning when you keep these bet-the-house-on-Vial hands. That's my key point - I don't think I'm favored to win the game when I keep this hand, but I also don't think I'm favored to win the game with an average mull to 5. Both cases involve getting lucky, the question is which one involves more luck.




4. This last one kind of shoots any reasoning you might have had in keeping that hand since you know your opponent. If I am against a known prison player he is very likely going to turn 1 a chalice at 1 or Trinisphere which locks you our for at least 2 if not 3 more turns. The more time you give those decks to set up, the worse things can get for you. In my experience against stompy or stax variants, they usually will keep a hand that either puts a chalice at 1 turn 1, or a Trinisphere by turn 2. The fact that you know your opponent favors those kind of decks is an even worse reason to ever keep a hand like that. The fact that you are on the play and guaranteed to not draw a land for turn 1 makes it even worse for you.

Hadn't seen him on MUD in legacy forever. But he knew he was playing against DnT, and I don't think Chalice style decks can keep hands against DnT on the draw simply because they have an early prison piece (since those hands just lose to T1 Aether Vial). Were I to mull to 5 against what my opponent did end up playing (Eldrazi, t1 Chalice) about 1/4 of my deck contained 'bad cards' (Thalia, Mom, STP, any copy of Vial after t1) and he had a TKS in hand in case I did have anything relevant. I was losing that game, absent some ridiculous draw.




On a side note:
I keep a lot of really appealing 1 land hands and get punished regularly whether I play 23, 24 or even 29 lands when I'm on post. Playing the odds like that will get you countless game losses that are unnecessary in a deck that, as redtwister stated, mulligans very well.

Post revolves around its lands, DnT revolves around Aether Vial. I also don't agree that the deck mulligans well, at least not relative to other T1 legacy decks, most of which have cantrips to clean up their hand or sol lands that easily make up for the card disadvantage. It mulligans well if you hit an Aether Vial (which is similar to Sol lands in providing virtual card advantage with extra mana) but Wastelands/Ports are only strong when you're ahead or at par on resources.

I think ultimately this decision is close and if I'm wrong I'm not wrong by a lot, and if I'm right I'm not right by a lot. But it is a strategy I think people should at least think about, and only because of the new mulligan rule.

[mykatdied]

I only referenced 12 post on 29 lands. I sometimes run dnt with 23 or 24 if I am using a similar mana base to a user on mtgsal that has a 24 lands version with dust bowl and flagstones. On more lands I sometimes get hurt on 1 land vial hands when I either can't resolve a vial and don't draw another land or I do resolve vial but don't have the mana to actually cast any non creature spell. Death and taxes is definitely a vial deck, but we're much better when we have land to do other things whether it be port down an opponent stuck on 2 lands while we have thalia in play, be able to run out wasteland and punish out opponent. I don't think you can take 3 good 0 land keeps where you got lucky and use that as the rule. If that is how you want to look at it, I can't fault you for that. It's worked for you, so you are going to do it. Maybe in your local LGS it pays off and your opponent can't punish you for it. At higher level legacy if you make a habit of those keeps you will get punished regularly. It will be the difference between cashing out and missing out.

[iatee]

Actually my local game store is more competitive than most rounds at Opens/GPs, e.g. the player I lost to is an ex-Eternal Weekend Legacy champ. In any case, I've won countless games off 1 land Vial hands at competitive REL. The fact that sometimes it doesn't work out doesn't mean that it's wrong to often keep a high-risk high-reward hand. Sometimes mulliganing doesn't work out, that doesn't mean it's wrong ever mulligan.

[redtwister]

@iatee

A 1 land hand with Vial is a completely different animal from 0 lands with 2 Vial. I agree with you on 1 Land (especially a Plains) and a Vial being a viable keep, especially if your spells are good.

I think you overlook that even though we do not have a source of CA and deck manipulation beyond SfM, the redundancy of DnT makes it a very consistent deck in mulligans. And your build actually has more manipulation thanks to Recruiter, while having a weaker mana base, so that alone makes me doubtful vis-a-vis 0 land hands.

"Without the scry rule, the top card of my deck is 42% to be a land. So the majority of the times that keep would result in me being punished and the keep would be extremely loose. With the scry rule, I have something closer to a 70% chance at hitting a land. And Land Vial Vial Thalia STP SFM Flickerwisp would be a pretty decent keep if we just pretend I'm on the draw - plus my opponent mulliganned. So it's a 70% chance at a pretty solid double vial hand on the draw vs a 100% chance of having a 5 card hand on the play."

You do have a 68% chance of hitting some land with the scry rule, but you only have a 35% chance of hitting a land that produces white mana, but a much worse chance of hitting one of your 3 Plains (including your 5 fetches, around 25%), which is your most best land because it cannot be hit by Wasteland.

Also, important to a mulligan is whether or not you asked yourself what your chance of winning the game was if you missed? And if you missed twice? The chance of hitting a land by itself is not sufficient. You have to consider what happens if you don't hit a land, or if you hit a land and it is destroyed.

Summing up, I agree that the scry rule, especially for lands, is a significant change in the game, but it does not magically make a very greedy keep good and a hand with 0 land and 2 Vial is very greedy because it has to 1) hit a land drop in your first two draw steps (68%) or lose, and 2) preferably hit a land drop that can cast StP (35%) not susceptible to Wasteland (25%), 3) not face Chalice on 1 turn 1 or some other disruption. Especially given your knowledge of the player in front of you, while I agree that your basic % chance of hitting a land is significantly better with the scry rule than without it, the chances are still not great and the chance of hitting a Plains make it look much worse, alongside the fact that the second Vial is likely simply redundant, and without a Plains you can't cast StP at all. Chalice on 1 simply shut the door.

Therefore, for me, the 0 land hand is a riskier keep than the mulligan to 5 with a scry because I am not just calculating the chance of hitting a land in the first two turns, but also how bad my chance of winning at all becomes each turn I miss a land drop.

[iatee]

See, I think the fact that you think the second Vial is redundant is where we differ - I see it as the huge upside in the scenario, Vial into Vial means I can possibly win the game without even needing a second land or casting a spell not called Aether Vial. Again, this argument might ultimately be due to how differently Imperial plays, as once you have Vial on 3 + Vial on 2 the deck is going to either a. quickly draw into some very powerful things b. draw into lands, which are fine too.

[Finn]

I have been doing some thinking about the Wr version of this deck. Waaay back when I was first trying to figure out what a deck featuring Mangara and Aether Vial would look like, I had a more controllish version as my start point. It was Wu, and I messed with it for about two weeks before swapping in a bunch of creatures and staying just in white. The point is that I used Sensei's Divining Top because it was so important for the role of control. Well, Wr seems to play a similar role. You get one activation - or possibly two with a fetchland - before turn 3 to help you land your best creature on that turn. This was my thinking back then, and it appears relevant with the toolbox here. I copied this from the OP and made some guesses to accommodate this plan. Tell me what you think.

2 Cavern of Souls
4 Flooded Strand
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

3 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
1 Kor Skyfisher
3 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4 Swords to Plowshares

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Æther Vial

[iatee]

It's an interesting idea, I might try it. Top is a non-Mom one drop, so it does help justify -1 Moms. That build has a 74% chance at having a T1 play on 7 cards, vs normal DnT's 65%.

I feel like 3 is probably too many, maybe 2 is safer. We do have a *lot* of shuffle effects though. Fetches obviously, but also SfM, Recruiters and Flicker effects - counting everything we actually have more than most blue decks. Recruiter for Recruiter gives you as many as you want. There are probably some interesting tricks with Top too, the obvious one is activate to draw a card, Vial-Flickerwisp or Skyfisher the Top for a free card.

I have noticed myself siding out Thalias more and more with Wr, mostly because I expect the games to go long and want to limit my x/1 exposure. So I don't think that 3 Thalias is heresy, especially with Eldrazi pushing a lot of Storm out of the meta. Still, going down to only 5 relevant t2 hatebears vs combo seems like you're giving up a lot g1. Recruiters help, but generally only if you have a Vial (t1 Vial, t2 Port, t3 Recruiter -> Thalia).

One awkward thing about playing Tops is that it means you can't name them with Revoker, which makes the Miracles matchup a little worse. But the Miracles matchup is already insanely good, especially with Pia/Kiran main. This build seems very powerful against midrange decks but soft to aggro and fast combo. Unlike Miracles we don't have a reset button vs aggro, so I think you need to still play Batterskull to make up for it.

[TokenSoldier]

@Finn
Tomorrow I'm testing all day with my usual group so I'll sleeve this up and see what we can do. This looks like a fun list to try out.

I also wonder if the new Thalia can be tested in this list as well. She's not a recruiter target, but utilizing Top might help manage that as we can draw and vial her in when needed. Like in response to something like a reality smasher. Maybe 2 copies?

Finally the current meta is chalice heavy, so adding three more one drops might be rough.

[colo]

Frankly, from merely pondering the list Finn posted, I don't really see this happening/working out (haven't tested it though, and I'll let empiricism happily trump my musings ;)).

First, where's all the mana for Top going to be coming from? Then there's only six sources of shuffle effects that do not require a mana investment of any kind. The six additional shuffles require either Aether Vial to be active, or cost 2 or 3 mana. That's just vastly inferior compared to 4 Ponder plus 10 Fetchlands, and weakens the effectiveness of Top a lot, I'm afraid. Furthermore, the usual suspects for running Top use it to smooth their draws in a way that provides them with their game-breaking bombs at the precise moment they require them - Terminus against a problematic board state, Jace to inevitably close out the game after a sweeper, Mentor to go for a wide kill fast, Entreat to smash the opponent to pieces out of nowhere, etc. - I'd argue that D&T's reliance on incremental advantage and Lingchi-like nature of it bringing the opponent down make it work fundamentally different enough that Top can't pull its weight for us enough: You're not going to find that bomb, because it just isn't there. And playing the draw-landdrop-top-go-game is something we can't afford to play, since scultping our hand isn't as important as is establishing a (taxing) board presence.

I've picked up Imperial Taxes a few weeks ago, and I'd say that I have extensive experience with the mono-W version (also some with the Wg and a little with the Wb variant), whis is why I think that I'm well aware of the relative weaknesses and strenghts of the archetype's different flavours. My impression, from having played some 30 to 40 games with the R splash, is that Recruiter (esp. combined with Flickerwisp and Kor Skyfisher) alone already solves many of the problems that Top could help alleviate: That you end up stranded in the late game without relevant threats, relying on your (blind) draw step to hopefully turn the tide. I don't remember having been in this situation any more since starting to run Imperial, while it's somewhat common to happen when playing mono-W.

[korstructure]

Just spotted this deck from MTGO:


Eldrazi Temple takes the place of Rishadan Port. Your thoughts on this direction? TKS and Displacer are so strong.
Is there a chance this is a budget choice due to the price of Ports on MTGO?
I LOVE Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in here. Anyone else?
Does this build have merit as a reasonable candidate to test?


CLYDE THE GLIDE DREXLER (5-0)

Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands (23)
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
9 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Just spotted this deck from MTGO:


Eldrazi Temple takes the place of Rishadan Port. Your thoughts on this direction? TKS and Displacer are so strong.
Is there a chance this is a budget choice due to the price of Ports on MTGO?
I LOVE Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in here. Anyone else?
Does this build have merit as a reasonable candidate to test?


CLYDE THE GLIDE DREXLER (5-0)

Creatures (26)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
3 Thought-Knot Seer

Spells (11)
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Lands (23)
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory
9 Plains
4 Wasteland

Sideboard (15)
2 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
1 Containment Priest
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

I'm surprised a list like this hasn't been tested yet due to the popularity of Eldrazi and Taxes in modern. Maybe it has been tested in which case it hasn't turned out to be so good. The Eldrazi in this deck compete with the new Thalia, Heretic Cathar and the proven Rishadan Port and Mirran Crusader, so there's that. Also, Thought-Knot Seer seems kind of slow without drawing Eldrazi Temple.

[Barook]

Since I love both D&T and White Eldrazi, I'll give it a spin. It seems mainly a budget solution due to the insane online price of Port.

Edit: Played a few games with the list. Wasn't really impressed by it.

On a different note: I'm going to test my old Wg build with Noble Hierarchs again to power out Thalia HC earlier, despite the weakness to -1/-1 effects. Having both Thalias on the field is rather impressive.

Don't nail me down on the numbers, especially the sideboard:

3 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Flickerwisp

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
2 Council's Judgment
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Winter Orb
1 Crackdown

What I really want to give a spin the E-Tutor board with Crackdown and Winter Orb in combination with Thalia HC.

[colo]

If you run Wg, you should definitely include Qasali Pridemage. It dominates the mirror and provides so much utility beyond that (maybe a 2-1 split between Revoker and it; but I'd try to get it up to two copies.)

I quite like the thought of Exalted + Crackdown on your side :)

[Barook]

If you run Wg, you should definitely include Qasali Pridemage. It dominates the mirror and provides so much utility beyond that (maybe a 2-1 split between Revoker and it; but I'd try to get it up to two copies.)

I quite like the thought of Exalted + Crackdown on your side :)
Pridemage: Maybe, but I like the idea of setting Cavern to Human and just stop caring.

Crackdown + Exalted isn't really a combo since every creature except Revoker (and Batterskull) are white anyway.

I'm more interested how Port + Noble + Winter Orb play out, especially with Thalia HC out.

[iatee]

Barook, fetches are stronger than 4x duals in splash builds. The ability to fetch basics is relevant. I think your list should be +2 fetches -2 Savannah.

[Barook]

Barook, fetches are stronger than 4x duals in splash builds. The ability to fetch basics is relevant. I think your list should be +2 fetches -2 Savannah.
As I said, the numbers aren't settled. I see your point, but too many fetches aren't good either when you run out of stuff to fetch.

[Medea_]

Hey all, after a couple of weeks of relative inactivity due to internet issues, I'm back home and am back to updating my website. I've added sections on Shardless BUG and Burn if those are of interest to you, check it out. http://www.thrabenuniversity.com

[iatee]

Medea, you want to make sure you don't end up suggesting that DnT has a 50%+ matchup against every tier 1 deck. It probably feels that way for you because you play the deck a lot, but I don't think everyone on ANT/Miracles/etc. threads would necessarily agree with your assessments of the matchups.

Barook, when you run out of things to fetch, your real problem is not "I've run out of things to fetch", your problem is "It's super late game and I'm still drawing lands..." Access to basics early is what keeps your hands Wasteland-proof (and Price of Progress-proof) and that comes up 10x as often. More fetches leave you a tiny bit open to Stifle, but Stifle is played by 6.5% of legacy decks right now while Wasteland is played by 50.8%.

What do people think of Selfless Spirit? Trades with Delver, decent clock as a fast flyer, tutorable for WR. Useless against Miracles' removal, decent against Decay/Bolt.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

Well, it is a strictly better 2mana counter target Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, or Damage based sweeper... It isnt dead in any matchup and can be used as a combat trick with AEther Vial... Seems okay

[Curby]

Might be a good question to ask Selfless Spirit vs Warping Wail. Both are big on utility, but not many people are playing Wail, so Spirit would have to be better to merit consideration.

[Finn]

Iatee, I kinda like Selfless Spirit, actually. I wish it gave protection instead of indestrucitble. I guess that could be better against Eldrazi. Even All is Dust says sacrifice though. Massacre is -1/-1. So is Dread of Night. Terminus. Swords to Plowshares. Pyroclasm. There. Against Pyroclasm you gain actual card advantage.

I think I may have just talked myself out of liking it.

[iatee]

I think it's primarily just a beater - so the effect is the upside rather than the real reason to play it. It is most likely not great, I agree, though I don't think it's far from playable and it might be an effect we want around at some point.

[Barook]

Finally got to test Gideon vs Miracles. He seems really strong against them as they don't have many ways to deal with him. And once they're tapped out of removal mana, swinging for 5 isn't too shabby either.

@iatee: I'll test your suggested configuration to get an impression.

[Svyelunite]

Hey there everyone. I haven't seen it mentioned for a few pages and I wanted to mention that the new Thalia is pretty sweet in DnT. I'm normally an Infect player, but I decided to run some WW this past weekend at a 70ish person event in Atlanta and a had 2 Thalia HC in the MD. Everytime I had her I was impressed. She was awesome against Sneak Show, the Mirror, Shardless, and Eldrazi. If you haven't tried her or aren't considering her, I definitely encourage all of you to give it a try. I'm not a DnT expert, but I'm competent and I think she's very likely to become a mainstay in the deck in the future.

[DisgruntledElk]

Hello everyone! I have played DnT for years now but have recently been tinkering with White Eldrazi, and let me say that THC (Thalia, Heretic Cathar) is absolutely bonkers in the deck. The current list I am running with is:

Creatures: 22
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem (I am currently testing these to accompany the THCs, but it is possible he should just be Reality Smasher. It's a testing phase)

Spells: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
3 Mox Diamond

Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
3 Plains
2 Karakas

SB: 15
2 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Warping Wail
3 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Disenchant

The deck has been really smooth since the addition of THC, and it provided the extra hate piece the deck desperately needed. I'll keep testing the list and post results once I have some more to work with.

[Finn]

I have reduced my gushing on this site in the past weeks because I do not want to get preachy, but the card really hoses nearly the entire format. It only takes a few games to see it. Seriously, get yours.

Disgruntled Elk, your list is very compelling. It makes me wonder if there is a natural convergence present between this deck and Eldrazi; sort of like a scale that exists between the two - i.e. "How close to Eldrazi is your D+T deck?". A different way to look at it is that there are a sufficient number of powerful cards in this archetype - disruptive creatures/creature prison or whatever you want to call it - that there is growing room for several variations to exist. Wr is an example as an offshoot. Your deck is another interesting one, one which I bet Barook has toyed with in some fashion. (I bet you guys have a lot to talk about.) We have had the same phenomenon with cantrips for years. That is, with enough powerful cards that push design in a particular direction, there are bound to be a variety of ways to flesh those decks out.

[iatee]

White Eldrazi did seem a underpowered before this - it wasn't the best Eldrazi deck and it wasn't the best DnT deck, so what exactly did it do best? But it could be the best Thalia HC deck. That card is pretty busted t2 on the play.

[MasterBlaster]

I have reduced my gushing on this site in the past weeks because I do not want to get preachy, but the card really hoses nearly the entire format. It only takes a few games to see it. Seriously, get yours.

I got mine in the mail today after preordering at Star City Games. Unfortunately I still need to buy like 15 more cards for the deck including 3 more Port and 2 or 3 more Karakas. Can't wait to play D&T.

[tarmogoat]

Hello, I started building this deck a couple months ago, finally got my Ports, Canopy, cavern and the 3 Karakas. So it's on, this weekend I'll be playing D&T and I'll be staying in the deck for the future.

Now, as I started building the deck, I started playing a version of it in modern, splashing black (no eldrazi) for Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler in the main and Zealous Persecution in the board. The deck performs great (completely different format and power level, I know), but it left me wondering now that I come back here and I see people talking about splashing green or adding Eldrazi to the deck. Why not black? The color provides Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman and helps on SB with Persecution against Elves. It also encourages to add more Horizon Canopy to the main, which can be great too as by Confidant's side it draws you more cards in grindy games. Deathrite can be mainboard hate against reanimator and lands/punishing jund and makes our Ports and Wastelands better. Idk, I'm not a legacy expert, but seeing people considering adding 4/5drops (eldrazi) and Green splash really made me pop the question for black, which seems really solid.

Anyway, I have 0 experience on legacy's D&T (at least on the pilot's side) so won't be wasting my time testing a color splash when I don't even have confidence in mono white.

This is where I'm at at the moment:

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Æther Vial
3x Mother of Runes

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Serra Avenger
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Flickerwisp
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Crackdown
2x Council's Judgment
1x Cataclysm
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar

[MasterBlaster]

Path to Exile actively works against the decks mana denial. Should definitely be replaced by Swords to Plowshares.

[tarmogoat]

Path to Exile actively works against the decks mana denial. Should definitely be replaced by Swords to Plowshares.

I meant swords, just copy pasted the modern list and edited the creatures and equipments :p, fixed!

[mykatdied]

Hello, I started building this deck a couple months ago, finally got my Ports, Canopy, cavern and the 3 Karakas. So it's on, this weekend I'll be playing D&T and I'll be staying in the deck for the future.

Now, as I started building the deck, I started playing a version of it in modern, splashing black (no eldrazi) for Dark Confidant and Tidehollow Sculler in the main and Zealous Persecution in the board. The deck performs great (completely different format and power level, I know), but it left me wondering now that I come back here and I see people talking about splashing green or adding Eldrazi to the deck. Why not black? The color provides Dark Confidant and Deathrite Shaman and helps on SB with Persecution against Elves. It also encourages to add more Horizon Canopy to the main, which can be great too as by Confidant's side it draws you more cards in grindy games. Deathrite can be mainboard hate against reanimator and lands/punishing jund and makes our Ports and Wastelands better. Idk, I'm not a legacy expert, but seeing people considering adding 4/5drops (eldrazi) and Green splash really made me pop the question for black, which seems really solid.

Anyway, I have 0 experience on legacy's D&T (at least on the pilot's side) so won't be wasting my time testing a color splash when I don't even have confidence in mono white.

This is where I'm at at the moment:

4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Æther Vial
3x Mother of Runes

4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Serra Avenger
1x Umezawa's Jitte

4x Flickerwisp
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Cavern of Souls
9x Plains

2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Crackdown
2x Council's Judgment
1x Cataclysm
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar


There is a user on mtgsalvation that has been playing with a lack splash. It's mostly for dark confidant, thoughtseize and some hate out of the board like orzhov pontiff. He had a couple decent appearances in top 8 if you look it up on mtgtop8

[Medea_]

@Iatee
Yeah, I need to write up some of the bad matchups like Jund, Elves, Food Chain, or Belcher so that it doesn't look like D&T has a positive matchup to even matchup versus every deck in Legacy. I'm also aware that my experience level biases me a certain amount when evaluating matchups, which is why I've tried to give a text summary of my thoughts rather than just some simple numbers and percentages.

@tarmogoat
My site has a section for each one of the splashes, written by pilots that specialize in that color. Feel free to check it out if you need some ideas.

[Svyelunite]

@Iatee
Yeah, I need to write up some of the bad matchups like Jund, Elves, Food Chain, or Belcher so that it doesn't look like D&T has a positive matchup to even matchup versus every deck in Legacy.

You forgot Infect... :tongue:

Really liking the new site by the way Phillip. Keep up the good work!

[Medea_]

(repost of a comment from MTGS)

Alrighty, I'm starting to do some serious testing again. I have two thoughts thus far:

1. THC seems really good. It pretty easily will warp a game in your favor, especially when both of the taxing effects are relevant. I'm not sure the correct way to adjust the rest of the deck to supplement the plan, but I'm pretty such THC is here to stay. I'm currently testing a build without Serra Avengers, but I have mixed feelings about that.

2. I don't think the Eldrazi matchup is necessarily favorable anymore [for mono-white]. In the early days of the deck, the main was often loaded with Spirit Guides/Lotus Petal, Thorns, and Trinisphere. That meant that many of the matches played out like MUD, and we were quite favored as their hands filled up with clunky cards that had relatively low impact. These days, those same slots now tend to be filled with Warping Wail, Dismember, an additional Umezawa's Jitte, and Phyrexian Metamorph or Endbringer. All of those changes are bad news for us. I went 2-7 in preboard games and 2-7 in post board games today. I frequently found myself on my back foot, and I never got to bounce a Batterskull in the 18 games I played; when I first started testing this matchup, recurring Batterskull was the route to stabilizing and victory. Now I don't feel like we have time for that to necessarily happen. Thoughts?

@Svyelunite
Yeah, I think Infect should be next. That matchup is tricky, and every little edge matters.

[Vandalize]

Crackdown is interesting, never seen that card before. I'll definetly try it. I've been using a secret tech Silent Artiber as a 1-of silverbullet in sideboard against Eldrazi and Young Pyromancer decks.

Yeah, Thalia 2.0 is SO GOOD. I can't even comment how much work this lady has been doing. I've been tracking my matchups against competitive decks in MWS and Cockatrice for some weeks, so far this is it:

W-L-D
UWr Miracles: 6-3-1
Grixis Tempo: 11-1-0
Reanimator: 1-4-0
BUG Delver: 3-0-0
Shardless BUG: 5-1-0
Sneak and Show: 5-0-0
GWb Maverick: 1-0-0
Aggro Loam: 2-2-0
Canadian Threshold: 2-0-0
Eldrazi Stompy: 3-4-0

List:

Lands [23]
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
3 Plains
2 Plateau

Creatures [26]
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Mirran Crusader

Spells [12]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard [15]
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgement
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Silent Arbiter -> Crackdown
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Wear//Tear

Don't give up on Magus of the Moon, dudes. He's boss.

[c2232]

Anybody here gonna hit up Baltimore this Sunday?

[iatee]

I'm going to this thing near Philly instead: https://www.facebook.com/events/1748495045437257/

Prob gonna run a main that looks similar to Vandalize's (having never played THC) + more of a tutorboard.

[deucegg]

How would you guys board vs grixis pyromancer? Do you bring in rip for drs/ angler?
I used to board out a couple of revokers, but with the lastest trend of 1-2 jitte in their board i think its risky.
How about path/ cj?

Ive recently swapped to a 1 off absolute law sb, do you think its worth it? Considering lightning/ forked bolt and lavamancers tend to be their only removal, and that way you can also stop a yp token to get counters from jitte by Jumpblocking

Also, what would you board out?

[Marungo]

@c2232
I will definitely be there barring some unforeseen circumstance

@medea
This is a serious question, you weren't always facing lists that were configured that way? I was from pretty early on, hence why I thought the matchup was not nearly as good as everyone else did. I still think it favors us though if we have the right configuration of cards, particularly sideboard with some path to exiles. Overall it's gonna be a tough and close matchup but I'd say it's like 55-45 in our favor

[Curby]

This is a serious question, you weren't always facing lists that were configured that way?

He lists the cards he used to face, and the cards he faces more now, so I guess the answer is no, it hasn't always been the same from his PoV. In a larger context, there have been a few different Eldrazi strategies in Legacy, so as things shake out and some designs see more consistent success, I'm not surprised to see this relatively new archetype evolve and change.

[Medea_]

@c2232
@medea
This is a serious question, you weren't always facing lists that were configured that way? I was from pretty early on, hence why I thought the matchup was not nearly as good as everyone else did. I still think it favors us though if we have the right configuration of cards, particularly sideboard with some path to exiles. Overall it's gonna be a tough and close matchup but I'd say it's like 55-45 in our favor

I was not. The majority of the testing I did was for the couple of big events immediately around the release of the new wave of Eldrazi. In some cases, I was testing with Eldrazi decks that I or the others locals had put together The lists weren't really standardized or optimal then. Gerry's list from Philly, for example, had 4 Thorn, 4 Chalice, and two Mox Diamond; that "dead weight" often meant I was winning an absurd percentage of game one scenarios. The newer lists are more refined and have better sideboards. I took about 3 weeks off from playing Magic while I was teaching an intensive Latin course, and I came back only to get wrecked by what I thought was a very positive matchup.

I'm something like 7-2 in matches against Eldrazi in sanctioned play, but my testing yesterday was nearly opposite of that. It just caught me off guard, and I think I need to reevaluate the matchup a bit in my primer now that the deck has evolved a bit.

[iatee]

Eldrazi's hard to test against because the deck has a certain % of insane hands that will beat pretty much anything and a certain % of pretty fragile hands that lose to a Wasteland or SfM. You need to account for those things + the number of removal spells main, which can really vary. The difference between 'beating Eldrazi' and 'not beating Eldrazi' often comes down to opening hands and topdecks on both sides.

[redtwister]

There may be a new deck in Legacy to deal with, if Paul Lynch and some of his grinders here in Baltimore work it out: UW Spirits and Taxes. It is using a lot of the new Spirits from the last couple sets, especially with Spell Queller, Mausoleum Wanderer, and Rattlechains plus Drogskoll Captain and Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, combined with Mom, Stoneforge Mystic, Phyrexian Revoker, Swords to Plowshares, Aether Vial, 3-4 Cavern of Souls, Wasteland, Rishadan Port, Force of Will, and some other things I have not seen.

If they can make it work, it is going to be a very difficult deck to deal with, with a lot of flyers and powerful effects. I'm not sure how well we would match-up against that...

As for my build, I'm excited by THC and I am going to be going down to 4 flyers in order to accommodate her. My only question is, 2 or 3? I currently have 2/2/1 THC/Mirran Crusader/Brimaz, but I think I want a 3rd. Does Brimaz go?

Sadly, I have not gotten nearly enough play time in because pauper has overshadowed Legacy here recently.

[colo]

I don't think the Spirit tribe will work out to be stronger than what D&T has in store.

Speaking of new toys, has anyone tried the practical applicability of Hanweir Garrison in Imperial yet? I really like the prospect of turning one body into three (while I'm pretty certain that that Meld thingie can be safely ignored).

[iatee]

Spirit tribal seems like something in-between DnT and Merfolk. Slower clock than Merfolk, lower taxes than DnT. It is probably a playable legacy deck that can win some games, but I'm not sure if it would be better than Merfolk in general, at least with the Spirits we have right now.

I haven't tried Garrison yet. I think my problem with it is that it's hard to imagine situations where I'd want it but Pia/Kiran wouldn't just be better. It's a little easier to maindeck I guess.

[colo]

The most attractive property of Garrison relative to Pia nad Kiran is its casting cost. Ticking up Vial to four is a hard decision to make; Garrison just fits the Imperial curve so well... I guess I'll just test it when the opportunity next arises.

[Stevestamopz]

The most attractive property of Garrison relative to Pia nad Kiran is its casting cost. Ticking up Vial to four is a hard decision to make; Garrison just fits the Imperial curve so well... I guess I'll just test it when the opportunity next arises.

I see what you're saying but if P&K didn't exist, I wouldn't consider playing Garrison at all.

P&K = Karakas-able army in a can (with an army that flies), that also provides reach and can clear the ground.

Garrison = A shitty Hero of Bladehold.

[Finn]

So, Thalia has gone heretic and I just had to take her for a spin. A word before I begin. Nobody last night, including me, could seem to get the words "Heretic Cathar" or even "Guardian of Thraben" out of our mouths. This is a real issue - a silly one - but it is something. Cabal Therapy required me to clarify with which one. I heard "little Thalia" and "old Thalia" referring to TGT, for example.

This was at Cool Stuff Games in Hollywood, Florida. The place is very big and gets packed on Friday nights. I think we had 24 players.

I could not get hold of 2 Fiend Hunter. The Oblivion Ring and the Cataclysm are the replacements. Eldrazi is peculiarly under-represented in South Florida. I have faced it exactly once in paper cards. But the Fiend Hunters are for that and Sneak/Show, which a friend told me is popular at Cool Stuff.


4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire//Ice
1 Batterskull

4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

sideboard
2 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest


Rd1 versus Miguel
A moment earlier I had seen him borrow the deck, so I knew he was on Enchantress. Over the years, I have had pretty good success against that deck, so I generally knew how to fight it. But it had been a few years. I admitted to Miguel that I did not even know what his wincon was.
-g1 I scooped to Solitary Confinement. This may have been a mistake, but I do not think so. He had Sterling Grove, so I had to topdeck two wisps before he got to his kill. And of course I did not know what that was or how to prevent it. I made a bad guess on ticking my Vial to 3. At game's end I was holding a fist full of twos, and of course I never drew a single three. This was important because I got an attack in past Elephant Grass, but it was not for lethal.
-g2 He got himself hiding behind Elephant Grass again while I seriously Ported him. Little Thalia and Flickerwisp made quick work of him. I hit Argothian Enchantress with Council's Judgment and he put up solitary again. But I had another wisp for that and swung for lethal. A note on this. On his upkeeps I was always porting lands. Unlike Divining Top, you want to let Elephant Grass trigger and resolve (and get paid) before porting or he can use the land for the grass. This issue came up.
g3, poor Miguel mulled to three and...well...you know how that goes.

1-0
No Heretic Cathar sightings.

Rd2 versus Bobby
-g1 I went first with just Plains. I had seen Force of Will in his graveyard from the previous round. But he played t1 Divining Top leaving no doubt it was Miracles. I was holding Revoker, but my turn 2 play was TGT because I had two of her in my hand. Resolved. He durdled. Revoker on my next turn. He shuffled away his Top, but then drew a plow for the Revoker. Thalia hit him a few times and was joined by Mangara. He had gotten a Monastery Mentor, but was having trouble feeding it (yes, this is what D+T does). He cast Jace, the Mind Sculptor and for three straight turns he unsummoned Mangara <---still love that card for its effect on opponents. I sent the Mentor famring, but then he blind topdecked Terminus. I saved Mangara with Karakas and deployed the other Thalia and Mystic on the reload. We carried on in this fashion for a bit longer, with Miracles never really getting off the ground. He scooped when I cast Mangara again, but we went very long.
-g2 was very strange. Little happened until we were both at 8 lands. I topdecked Batterkull and he had no immediate answer. At nine lands he Brainstorms on his turn and I kinda figured something was amiss just because it was Miracles. Sure enough, at my eot he Brainstorms again. OK, he had three untapped fetchlands here and I had three Wastelands. He otherwise had all basics. I wasted a fetch with Brainstorm on the stack. He let it happen. Another. Same. Third one. Again he refused to fetch. Got this? Bobby is good and he knows that he can fetch with the miracle trigger on the stack. But this left him with four mana and he made two angel tokens instead of five. We traded blows for awhile, getting essentially nowhere. I topdecked the single Cataclysm though. Heh. Jace comes down and kills the token. I return Batterskull to hand. On my turn I recast it and have just enough mana to Cataclysm. I plowed the remaining angel and was porting his land while I finished the job with the big battering ram.

2-0
Still no big Thalia. Strange. BTW, I got kinda lucky on the big miracle trigger. I was not sure what he was up to. I just did not want his Brainstorm to be profitable.

Rd3 versus Mike
-g1 Mike is on BUG and he lays down Ancestral Vision on turn 1 and 2 with plenty of lands. You can guess how this went. I did some stuff, but I did not see any real disruption, and he had good answers. Mike played well and I was never really in this game.
-g2 Mike started with Vision again, but this one went better. I started strong and was able to set up well and saw several StP for his threats. Mike had brought in eleven sb cards against me though. I saw Toxic Deluge twice, Pithing Needle and Null Rod in just the first few turns. This was a lot and I could not dig out. The game ended with him Fatesealing me with Jace and using Sylvan Library on himself. I had gotten him down in life, but he was certainly in control in the end.
I may have paid here for not having a sideboard for this matchup.

2-1
I actually cast Thalia, Heretic Cathar against Mike, but he met it immediately with Liliana of the Veil, and she was my only creature.

Rd4 versus Kevin
-g1 He was definitely on Grixis. Turn 1 he casts Delver of Secrets. I did...something. Turn 2, it does not flip, but attacks and he casts two more. Yeah. Turn 3 Brainstorm on upkeep, I take 9. I go to StP one, he Forces. I had to tap Horizon Canopy for this. That brings me to nine. I pass the turn and... As Kevin put it, sometimes Delver just happens.
-g2 He Forces Vial. My turn 2 is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben to his Deathrite Shaman. He cast Young Pyromancer on his turn, but was having trouble feeding it (yes, this is what D+T does). I finally get Thalia, Heretic Cathar and the game is on. After a couple turns of my straight jacket, he bolts little Thalia. I don't know if that was correct, given his options of the two of them. Because Big Thalia controlled the game from then on and I won handily.
-g3 I went to six. He t1 Therapies me blind and nabs 2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. My turn 1 Mother of Runes gets Dazed. Yeah. I had like a Flickerwisp, a Mystic, and a land in my hand at the end of my first turn and Plains on the field. On turn 3 landed Big Thalia and I convincingly blew him out despite his monstrous head start. He already had threats on the battlefield and he landed several more, but it did not matter. He just could not maneuver enough to make good use of them. <--That is what I am talking about this card doing.

3-1

Rd 5
ID
3-1-1

Top 8 versus Ryan
-g1 Ryan played Bayou into Top. Then Swamp. Uhh, Nic Fit? wtf. I revoked the Divining Top. He stormed me out the next turn. Pfffft.
-g2 I play Plains on my turn. He Gitaxian Probes me to see little Thalia and Enlightened Tutor. Guys, tutor is so strong here. I got to see his play before deciding on what to fetch. If he had hit me with Cabal Therapy I could simply put my hate card on top. Well, he made 10 goblins. I was going to get Chalice, but I went for Canonist instead because of this. I did some math, and on my turn I played Thalia. Attacks me to 11 (9 remaining). I play Mystic for Batterskull. Attacks me to 4 (7 remaining). Cast Canonist. He attacks, I vial in the big ram and block three more to stabilize. I added Rest in Peace and Chalice to take the game with more good stuff in hand.
-g3 Ryan mulls to 5 and blind Therapies me to get 2x Thalia. Crap. I cast mother of Runes and was left really with only Big Thalia for disruption. Ryan had crap too though, and I topdecked Canonist on turn 2. My turn 3 Big Thalia followed by Mystic went essentially unanswered. I do not think Big Thalia is all that strong against storm, actually. But she slowed him down on lands when whatever she replaced would not have. At any rate, I put a weapon on Canonist the turn he drew into Massacre, but I did not even have any Plains.

4-1-1

Top 4 split. Thank God. It was past 1 AM.

Thalia, Heretic Cathar was a serious bitch in the few games I got her to stick.

You are playing her or you are doing it wrong.

[iatee]

I tried new Thalia in Imperial (a list fairly similar to Vandalize's) at an event yesterday and did way worse than I've ever done at a real event. I got fairly unlucky a few times, there were a lot of games where I was one card away from winning, or just needed to be on the play. I'm not going to conclude that THC is unplayable, but I don't think she's so powerful that not including her is ridiculous. In almost every situation I had her Mirran Crusader would have been about as good or better. I didn't play a 4th Recruiter (which I missed) or a Batterskull (which I didn't really.)

Eldrazi r1 W
g1 I won the die roll and Vial -> Mom -> Magus. Decent chance I lose the same game on the draw. (Why I hate this matchup.)
g2 Can't beat T1 Jitte t2 TKS.
g3 I keep 2 Wasteland 1 Port on the play, draw a 3rd Wasteland and just Wasteland him every turn until I draw into real plays. Eventually trade THC + SfM for a TKS. Second THC gets Dismembered. Recruiter for a Magus after he's spent a ton of Dismembers already and doesn't have a board.

Grixis Delver L
g1 I keep a fair Mom/Thalia/Magus hand but get tempo'd out by a fast DRS/double Delver start
g2 He has Needle for my Vial but I still have a bunch of flyers for a better clock and Magus him out.
g3 Cabal Therapies wreck my otherwise good hand + he plays a fast Gurmag. I have Mom and THC but it doesn't look so powerful vs Gurmag, and I can't even block because I am pretty sure he has Bolt. (He does.) Draw a Fiendslayer Paladin so he now can't attack with Gurmag anymore, but eventually die to Delvers.

12-Post W
g1 He SnTs a Titan, I put in Mangara and have a Karakas in play. Don't end up needing to use Karakas lock because I draw a Recruiter and just play Magus through Cavern.
g2 He draws mostly non-post lands and removal. STPs my first Magus, SnTs a Titan and I have another Magus. Flickerwisp + Sofi kills him quickly.

Grixis Delver L
g1 I saw this guy playing my friend earlier and I thought he was on BUG - unfortunately not. He has a fast double Delver + DRS start. I have Fiend Hunter for one Delver, get a Jitte online, but my life total is exactly low enough that he can win with a Delver hit and 2 DRS activations. I would have won on the play or if I had drawn into Flickerwisp or Magus.
g2 Mull to 6, one land and a Vial/Mom/high curve. He finds his Needle after a few turns and I go like 7 turns without drawing a land. I most likely would have won if he didn't find his one Needle.

Miracles L
One of my friends I came to the event with. I have a very good lifetime record against him.
g1 I have a decent start, he Miracles his Entreat (with enough mana for 2) and I poker face activate Vial on 3 hoping he won't think too much about it - have a Magus and he can't cast the Entreat. Kill him soon after.
g2 Wear/Tears my t1 Vial, I have lots of legends but no Karakas and get attritioned out.
g3 No Vial, get a Sword of War and Peace + THC in play, do a ton of damage in one hit, but he Terminuses next turn and gets a Jace out. Don't draw a Vial or enough land to play multiple cards a turn and can't come back from resolved Jace.

Maverick L
g1 I have new Thalia and it slows him down a turn but he still casts KotR and I don't have or draw into any way to deal with it.
g2 Similar game. I used my STPs early on DRS, hoping to slow him down + cut him off mana/colors before a Magus. Didn't work, drew THC which was bad again vs his board.

So vs Eldrazi - THC was a good body and a fine effect, but probably not better than Mirran Crusader. He was playing Karakas which added downside potential. Unlike Mirran Crusader it gets Dismembered and doesn't trade for TKS on its own. I had to leave myself open to getting destroyed by a Dismember when I blocked a TKS with SFM + THC.

Vs Grixis Delver - THC was too slow for the effect to ever matter. Mirran Crusader would have been much better at blocking an early Gurmag Angler. Both are 3 drops that can get bolted, so not really fantastic, especially on the draw.

Vs 12-Post - THC was probably equivalent to Mirran Crusader, slowing them down is nice but Crusader + equipment is a generally better clock. Plus Crusader attacks past Titan. (This matchup plays out a lot differently for Imperial Taxes than Mono-W, and you care less about disruption/clock since a resolved Magus basically wins.)

Vs Miracles - I never actually had a THC + Karakas game. It was fine, probably marginally better than Mirran Crusader, but Crusader + SoWaP would have been better than THC + SoWaP.

Vs Maverick - THC was pretty terrible. These games go long and you want something with evasion, not something that can be blocked by anything in their deck + bounced by their Karakas.

I might try it a little more at my local tonight + also try lowering the deck's curve a bit. I'm already weaker to fast decks. I only played 2 Paths in my SB and regretted it since I didn't see a lot vs Delver. I might try 4 Paths in the SB.

[AsmodeusDM]

D&T had a fairly reasonable showing at the LEgacy CLassic this weekend; no Imperial lists...but one of the Top8 lists featured 3 THC.

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=3&start_date=07/31/2016&end_date=07/31/2016&city=Baltimore&state=MD

Going to GenCon this week and I may try playing her in a monowhite shell and an imperial shell (although more un recruitable targets doesn't sound like what I want in that deck).

[Marungo]

That was me with the 3 THC. I'll probably write a report when I get the opportunity later tonight and if not then then tomorrow. Went 6-0-1, was 1st seed, lost in T8 to poor draws.

[Barook]

That was me with the 3 THC. I'll probably write a report when I get the opportunity later tonight and if not then then tomorrow. Went 6-0-1, was 1st seed, lost in T8 to poor draws.

List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105819)

I do like this list alot. The MD numbers seem very well-balanced and doesn't completely forsake Crusader and Serra Avenger for THC. Even the SB looks pretty good.

[Manipulato]

List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105819)

I do like this list alot. The MD numbers seem very well-balanced and doesn't completely forsake Crusader and Serra Avenger for THC. Even the SB looks pretty good.

Were you guys happy with the new Thalia in the MD? A buddy of mine made the 1st place in our locals last weekend with 2 copies in the MD but he sided her out alot but when she resolved she was absurd powerful!
My only Problem with her ist the cc3 which is very slow. I think Maverick is a better home for her with DS & Zenith into Arbor T1.

[iatee]

I don't think there's any question that she's a scarier card in decks that can t2 her, maybe even one of the best cards in those decks . The question is more 'How good are the decks that can t2 her?'

As per DnT - which already is a t1 deck in its various incarnations - when I was behind or there was a board stall she felt like...not really what you want out of a 3 drop. No evasion, no value, just a 3/2 first strike. And t3 on the draw, you will very often find yourself behind.

[Marungo]

List (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105819)

I do like this list alot. The MD numbers seem very well-balanced and doesn't completely forsake Crusader and Serra Avenger for THC. Even the SB looks pretty good.

Thanks. I'll be sure to share my thoughts on the deck and THC in the report

[Fl0do]

Were you guys happy with the new Thalia in the MD? A buddy of mine made the 1st place in our locals last weekend with 2 copies in the MD but he sided her out alot but when she resolved she was absurd powerful!
My only Problem with her ist the cc3 which is very slow. I think Maverick is a better home for her with DS & Zenith into Arbor T1.

Death & Taxes is a perfect fit for the new Thalia, my list is very similar to Marungo's (just some lands off) and my testing is very promising (I started with 2 copies too). Thalia, Heretic Cathar is really good for closing out games after trading some creature and land. Without THC it was more likely that your opponent could crawl back after a topdecked Tarmogoyf, land etc. With THC it's so much harder for your opponent to draw out of equal or worse board positions, which I really like in a deck with no carddraw or library manipulation at all.

Maverick may be the overall better home for THC deckbuilding-wise, but Death & Taxes is the better deck in the current metagame (or just in general).

[Finn]

Death & Taxes is a perfect fit for the new Thalia, my list is very similar to Marungo's (just some lands off) and my testing is very promising (I started with 2 copies too). Thalia, Heretic Cathar is really good for closing out games after trading some creature and land. Without THC it was more likely that your opponent could crawl back after a topdecked Tarmogoyf, land etc. With THC it's so much harder for your opponent to draw out of equal or worse board positions, which I really like in a deck with no carddraw or library manipulation at all.

Maverick may be the overall better home for THC deckbuilding-wise, but Death & Taxes is the better deck in the current metagame (or just in general).
Well, you have to take some cards out to make room for this one, of course. I took out my beaters. They have been at various times Brimaz, Serra Avenger, and Mirran Crusader. Those guys all stack up kinda well against a Tarmogoyf. All better than Big Thalia. I do not care to lose to Tarmos. But there is a lot more to the picture. Opponents are made less able to do the other things their deck does to get them to the point of D+T staring down a Tarmo with no resources to avoid it.

I do not view the cost of 3 to be much of a down side, honestly. If it cost 2, it would probably be a 2/1. We simply could not reasonably replace offense with a card like that (not to mention how soft the deck would be to Golgari Charm and friends). We would be forced to decide what disruption to cut, and that is much harder.

[Abantau]

After 1 1/2 year of MtG haitus; back read the forum and now playtesting and liking this build with Thalia 2.0 & Displacer

*SB plan copied from Yamashita Taiki's 7/02/2016 1st place list tweaking -1 Eidolon of Rhetoric for +1 Ethersworn Canonist

Creatures
4 mother of runes
4 thalia 1.0
4 flickerwisp
4 phyrexian revoker
4 stoneforge mystic
2 serra avenger
2 thalia 2.0
2 eldrazi displacer
1 mangara

Spells
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
1 batterskull
1 SoFI
1 umezawa's jitte

Lands
4 rishadan port
4 wasteland
2 horizon canopy
3 karakas
1 flagstone of tokair
8 plains

SB
2 warping wail
2 ethersworn canonist
2 cataclysm
2 RiP
1 surgical extraction
1 ratchet bomb
1 pithing needle
1 containment priest
2 council's judgement
1 manriki gusari

At first it was 4 Thalia 2.0 and -2 Avenger, -2 Displacer, +1 Mangara, +1 Karakas and didn't like multiple Thalia 2.0 in hand stuck all the time. Liking the Warping Wail against the mirror, hitting Thalia 1.0, mom, Revokers, Flickerwisp and against Mentor Miracles countering a crucial Terminus, Council's Judgement or going for broke EotA.

With Thalia 2.0 & Displacer in play is just bonkers against Reality Smasher.

[iatee]

Tried THC again last night vs Eldrazi/Reanimator/Grixis Delver/Lands but she only came into play as a relevant creature vs Grixis Delver. It slowed down his Abrupt Decay (which I knew about from a Delver) and was a good clock but ultimately got hit by the Decay (whereas Mirran Crusader wouldn't be).

I put Kor Skyfisher back in the deck and proceeded to win multiple games off it. Vs Eldrazi Recruitered for Kor Skyfisher to bounce a Fiend Hunter to eat an Endbringer and in that same attrition-y Delver game I tutored for it to block a Delver. 4 Paths in the sideboard worked out pretty well, definitely won a game vs Delver off that, though my Eldrazi opponent was awkwardly playing a Wastes. I think if I'm going to keep up the 8 STP strategy I'll need to toss in more anti-Chalice stuff too, like a Ratchet Bomb.

Can anyone think of any not-Relic Warder 2 drops in W or R that destroy/blink/mess up a Chalice?

[Stevestamopz]

Can anyone think of any not-Relic Warder 2 drops in W or R that destroy/blink/mess up a Chalice?

Time for our good friend Manic Vandal to come to play. He's a human to boot.

I wish Viashino Heretic was a bit more playable, that card is sick.

Edit: Misread your question. Manic Vandal is still the most playable shatter dude though.

[H]

Can anyone think of any not-Relic Warder 2 drops in W or R that destroy/blink/mess up a Chalice?

Not much that would be ideal, I don't think:

Capashen Unicorn (Substantial mana investment, needs to tap and sac itself, but can hit Enchantments)

Goblin Tinkerer (lower mana investment, can live through killing a chalice but still needs to tap)
Hammer Mage (needs to tap, could kill your own artifacts and have to discard a card)
Hearth Kami (worse than Reckless Reveler)
Reckless Reveler (less mana, but sacrifices itself)
Torch Fiend (Same card as Reckless Reveler)

Utility wise, Torch Fiend/Reckless reveler can hit anything, but if the aim is direct at Chalice, Tinkerer sticks around.

All of them are rather bad though.

[iatee]

Problem with Manic Vandal is it's a must. It might ultimately be the best option since it's not actually a terrible card.

Here's something else I found, probably too niche:

http://magiccards.info/scans/en/shm/230.jpg

[Marungo]

Tournament Report of my 5th place finish at the SCG Baltimore Classic:

DECKLIST (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=105819)

I’ll be honest, almost didn’t make it to this event, but a last minute ride offered by a friend and fellow Death and Taxes pilot got me there. I was super tired and was playing my deck untested with new Thalia so I joked with friends I was hoping for the ‘ol 0-3 drop get food. Turned out better than expected.

R1: vs. Shardless BUG (W) (2-0)
G1: My opponent keeps his hand and opens on Underground Sea into Deathrite Shaman. I have Vial, but my opponent has no fetches and just follows up with a swamp. I take advantage of the stumble as any good Death and Taxes player does and begin playing and vial’ing out threats. Mom came out, Stoneforge into Batterskull followed, Thalia was backbreaking, and Crusader was just cruel. The final turn he resolved an Ancestral with one mana up after paying the Thalia tax and just died.
Sideboard:
In: 3 Rest in Peace, 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Out: 4 Flickerwisp, 2 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Mother of Runes
G2: Mom is good and all, but postboard Shardless has a lot of random -1/-1 effects so I felt 4 was too many. Game 2 was more of the same mana troubles for my opponent. He had out Underground Sea and Swamp and the Underground Sea got wasted while Vial pumped out threats like Thalia, Stoneforge, and Crusader. Swamp, swamp, Bayou is not a successful manabase either, but he followed up with wasteland Toxic Deluge going to 2 and sweeping my board. Unfortunately for him, I followed up with Land, Rest in Peace, Gideon to sweep up the game

(1-0)

R2: vs. Maverick (W) (2-0)
G1: My opponent has some good cards like Deathrite and Knight of the Reliquary but it stuck on 2 lands after a wasteland. Vial does work again as Mirran Crusader and friends provide too much of an offense to overcome after the Knight gets Plowed and my opponent has no follow up threats.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Rest in Peace
Out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 Flickerwisp
G2: Yeah Revoker on Knight doesn’t seem all that great. Game 2 saw mana flood for my opponent and an appearance from THC. She died almost immediately, but she made a brief appearance. Regardless, Stoneforge Mystic, Rest in Peace, and Crusader all did work and my opponent found himself with a lot of lands and not a lot of action. He did answer things here and there but Mother of Runes came down and he had no sweepers to answer a hefty board.

(2-0)

R3: vs. Shardless BUG (W) (2-0)
G1: My opponent was very nice. Most of my opponents were but I felt the need to highlight him because he was a particularly cheerful fellow. Regardless game one saw Vial take over. A main phase Thalia, followed by a vialed in Stoneforge at endstep spelled bad news for my opponent. He had little offense or defense and was just brainstorming a bunch. Eventually Flickerwisp moved a guy out of the way and I attacked for a bunch then played THC. He Shardless’d into Ancestral, dead on board, then scooped.
Sideboard: Same as before
G2: Oh man Gideon was MVP this game by a country mile. I kept a real slow hand with answers but not a lot of action, although a Thalia did get a chance to hold a Jitte briefly. A turn one thoughtseize took my Crusader though and from there I fell behind. He had Goyf, Strix, Tarpit, and Deathrite. That’s a lot to handle. But Gideon came down and saved the day, providing a consistent chump blocker for Goyf until I found a plow while Port kept his Tarpit at bay until I found a wasteland. He kept attacking me with Strix trying to end the game, realizing I was pulling away. Eventually though he ran out of Instants and Sorceries that could keep a Goyf big and I was playing threats while Gideon provided blockers. Stoneforge got a Batterskull, and Rest in Peace did a number on him. Eventually he had to Deluge killing all creatures but leaving me a Gideon, who does a solid job of making an army without any help. Gideon eventually picked up the Jitte and a Knight picked up a Batterskull and it was GG.

(3-0)

R4: vs. Death and Taxes (W) (2-1)
Man oh man. You know I complained I hadn’t played the DnT mirror in months on the car ride up since I think it’s a really interesting matchup. After this match, I don’t think I could take playing it too many times.
G1: I knew what he was playing since I sat next to him Round one. I kept a hand with Vial and Revoker while he had 2 Vials. I have the play though so I have a turn where I play a Thalia into Revoker on Vial, and the game really isn’t too close after that. He was all in on the vials and had mana trouble.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Council’s Judgment, 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Path to Exile, 1 Containment Priest
Out: (on the Draw) 4 Thalia, 1 THC, 1 Sword of Fire and Ice, 1 Cavern of Souls
(on the play) Same except land goes back in and a Path went out
G2: I misplayed. I overvalued Jitte in this game from my end. I had Revoker out on Vial again and had a turn where I attacked with an equipped Revoker into into death with my only follow up being THC. He vialed in Avenger, and his Jitte took over the game. My opponent played well and recognized the value of his vials and used Flickerwisp to stay on top.
G3: This was the most stressful and difficult game I’ve played in a while. I had 2 moms in my opener, so even though one got plowed, the other stuck. I then get a Flickerwisp out as the only flier as well as Revoker on Jitte and feel like I might run away with things, getting my opponent to 9. This is where things got rough. My opponent had cobbled his own board while I was beating, including Mom, Revoker on Vial and the Avenger he played. The board stalled. He attacked a few times with Avenger and found another mom while I was too afraid he had plow to move. Eventually I got down a crusader and my own Jitte and started Mom protected my Wisp to block and we were at a dead lock.
The turning point came after he added a Brimaz to the board. He attacked with Brimaz and Avenger and I had to find a way to win this game. I tanked for a while realizing if I could just remove that Revoker and my Revoker, my Crusader could pick up a Jitte, get protection, and swing for lethal. I decided now was the time to make a move. Wisp blocked Avenger, Crusader blocked Brimaz, my Revoker blocked Cat token. He protected the Avenger and was surprised I decided to protect Crusader. He decided not to use the second mom, and played a third post combat. It was really now or never. I went to plow the Revoker, and he calmly protected it. When I untapped and equipped, he went, “Oh.” And I knew I was about to take over.
New mom blocked Crusader, and now I had to play the odds. The one way this could get taken away was if he got a Jitte on his Avenger. I double ported him on upkeep, and hope he didn’t draw a land. He didn’t. It was a vial which he played. Next turn I untapped, gave protection, pumped, and sung for lethal.

(4-0)

R5: vs. BUG Delver (W) (2-0)
G1: This guy made top 8 as well. He had a slow start game one with Deathrite but no threat until he played a mongoose. At this point he had just wasted me and played a trop so I thought this was RUG Delver. Once he fetched an Underground Sea, I was confused but happy overall. I had a vial, mom, THC came down as did Stoneforge. THC did work keeping his guys tapped and forcing bad chump blocks and eventually got a Jitte. By the time Mongoose got Threshold I had added a batterskull and he was done.
Sideboard:
In: 3 Rest in Peace, 2 Path to Exile
Out: 3 Phyrexian Revoker, 1 THC,1 Sword of Fire and Ice
G2: Pretty happy that he was playing Goose. Made R.I.P. all the better. Didn’t matter actually since, even though I kept a land light hand and got wasted twice, I drew lands and my opponent had a bunch of answers but no pressure. I had a hand full of threats and eventually the answers ran out. I had Crusader, Flickerwisp, Thalia, and eventually overran him. Goose is good. Not very good against a Crusader.

(5-0)

R6: vs. Bant Deathblade (W) (2-1)
G1: My opponent wants to draw but isn’t sure if we can and not have to play next round. I was there mostly just to play magic so I said let’s play. Game one my opponent plays just a little sloppy and I’m able to jump on it and take advantage. THC is MVP here. She keeps True Names down their first turn out as well as mana dorks and cause mana troubles for my opponent. I even waste his Flooded Strand. Eventually THC with Jitte and SoFI, a vial on 3, and a Karaks overwhelm my opponent. Tough game one.
Sideboard:
In: 2 Pithing Needle, 2 Council’s Judgment
Out: 3 Flickerwisp, 1 Swords to Plowshares.
G2: Uh… Anyone know how to board vs Bant Deathblade? I didn’t. Regardless game 2 isn’t good for me. I try desperately to get Jitte online but can’t. Game goes real long and I don’t have a lot of recollection of it, but I remember a pair of True Name’s came down and spelled game over for me.
G3: Man this was a tough match overall. Again I don’t recall too much about this, but I do remember The turning point was an end step Vial on 2 activation which forced him to plow my Stoneforge to play around Thalia. Unfortunately for him it was another Stoneforge, and I found Jitte after getting SoFI the first time. I played and equipped and he never found a True Name so all his guys met the same fate and Jitte Controlled the game until it got Grip’d. Then SoFI and THC overwhelmed him

(6-0)

Round 7: ID

(6-0-1)

Top 8: vs. Bant Stoneblade (L) (0-2)
G1: Game one he found a True Name and got Jitte on it before I could get mine online thanks to Noble Hierarch and it totally took over the game.
G2: I drew atrocious. I drew 10 lands and 4 guys all game and although I had needle on his 3 deathrites, they literally killed me. I was really frustrated cause he dazed my T2 Stoneforge which I played without Cavern cause who keeps Force or Daze in vs. Death and Taxes?! Later he Forces my THC pitching True Name. All the disrespect. Didn’t help he had plow and Path for my other guys, but I just hope I never have to Council’s Judgment a Deathrite ever again.

(6-1-1)

Not really that upset to be honest, plus I now have $300 in store credit that I have to figure out how to use.
Final Thoughts: Thalia, Heretic Cathar is the real deal in my opinion. Yeah I played all fair decks but we aren’t exactly great vs. most combo decks despite what many of our long time players will have you believe. She totally warped the game states she got stuck on or just ate a removal spell which I can’t be too unhappy with either. I boarded one out a lot because she is best on the play, but I wouldn’t go down one since you want to maximize those chances of hitting her T3 on the play. Overall she was great, and even though I feel Crusader is better, I feel like she is so much better early game that the 3rd copy is worth it. Still haven’t figured out how good she is in the mirror though since she can be Karakas’d.

As for the list as a whole it felt great. Did I get a little lucky here and there? Yeah. That’s magic. I also got unlucky in Top 8. That’s magic too. I probably left out some Wastelands and Port activations here and there that mattered but slipped my mind, please don’t hold it against me. Gideon earned his keep with those matches vs. Shardless BUG, but while he earned his spot, one card has certainly lost there’s.
Look I know it’s good vs. Reanimator, Dredge, the mirror, etc. but Containment Priest has overstayed its welcome. I’m tired of playing with a 14 card sideboard. I don’t see any of the aforementioned decks around me (literally haven’t played them in a year aside from the mirror and haven’t played elves in 6 months) and it’s debatable how good it is in the mirror since sometimes you have vial and it’s just dead. I understand everyone has a different metagame and I don’t blame you at all for playing Priest, but I think I’m done with Priest, at least for now. With Sneak and Show Moving towards a more Omni-hybrid deck I think I’ll find a different card to fill the spot. Maybe Seal of Cleansing.

Regardless had a total blast, felt I played really well, was really happy with the list, and totally recommend Thalia, Heretic Cathar. Is this her best deck to be in? Possibly not. Does that mean we shouldn’t play her? Absolutely not.

[iatee]

Congrats on the t8.

I think the key thing to remember when evaluating the card is not just that you didn't play against combo, you played against a lot of midrange with greedy mana. No doubt THC is good there, but those decks don't make up the majority of the legacy meta. And as you noted - Crusader would have been as much of a beast on board (if not more) vs all the BUG decks + Maverick too.

As per sideboarding, vs Maverick you should take out your small Thalias (they play Karakas, have a lot of mana, are a creature based deck...) and definitely keep Revokers and maybe even bring in Needles. There are lot of targets beyond Knight - equipment that will just win the game, SfMs, mana dorks, their own Moms. etc. Also I'm guessing you have a typo and didn't side in RiPs vs DnT and brought in Needles.

[Finn]

I just found this article from June.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/deck-tech-death-and-taxes-thomas-enevoldsen-2016-06-12

Olle Rade starts with this:


In a time when people usually pick their decks based on what they have seen someone else win with, or from the internet, it's refreshing to hear stories of a deck genesis with more depth to them. When I asked Thomas Enevoldsen how he started playing the mono-white deck going by the name of "Death and Taxes," the answer was more of a fairytale.

"In Denmark, back in 2012, a guy put up a Mox Pearl as prize for anyone who could build a deck with certain restrictions and still win a Legacy tournament. It had to be mono-colored, to have a certain curve, and there was a list of cards you couldn't use. My friend Andreas Petersen designed a white deck and ended up winning the Mox Pearl, and that shell evolved into the Death and Taxes deck that I have been playing ever since," he said.

I have heard Thomas say before that he got it from Andreas when asked where the deck came from. But now he has moved on to claiming that Andreas designed the deck for this event, and that is flatly false. You have Olle Rade praising the originality of it all. And Thomas has again perpetuated the fairy tale with this response when he knows perfectly well that it is untrue.

To make this entirely clear, Andreas Petersen got that deck off the net. He got it from me. He did not design it. I did. I tested it against my friend Travis at my kitchen table. I named it. When I had the first working version I posted it on MtgSalvation in 2006. In near total obscurity I lead this deck's formation in the face of a community that largely panned it because it used cards like Flickerwisp, Plains, Mangara of Corondor, and Serra Avenger. Along with people who came and went over the years, I adapted the deck as new cards came along. Years of work figuring out everything not to do had already been figured out by 2012.

Thomas, you know this. Anyone who has been a member of the online Legacy community long enough knows this. There is a written history online. Every post is time stamped. When Olle Rade focused an article on the mothership about how original your creation is, that would have been a good time for you to come clean. Now you are even more trapped in this lie.

[Marungo]

Congrats on the t8.

I think the key thing to remember when evaluating the card is not just that you didn't play against combo, you played against a lot of midrange with greedy mana. No doubt THC is good there, but those decks don't make up the majority of the legacy meta. And as you noted - Crusader would have been as much of a beast on board (if not more) vs all the BUG decks + Maverick too.

As per sideboarding, vs Maverick you should take out your small Thalias (they play Karakas, have a lot of mana, are a creature based deck...) and definitely keep Revokers and maybe even bring in Needles. There are lot of targets beyond Knight - equipment that will just win the game, SfMs, mana dorks, their own Moms. etc. Also I'm guessing you have a typo and didn't side in RiPs vs DnT and brought in Needles.

Upon thinking about it you're probably right about the Maverick matchup, but thankfully the matchup is pretty good so I avoided punishment. You were also correct about the typo.

I do however think you're off about your current evaluation of the format which I feel I mostly midrange, delver, and whatever you wanna classify Eldrazi as. As for THC sure Crusader is/was good against those decks but she singlehandedly beat Bant Deathblade for me and won G1 against DnT. It's not like it was bad versus all the midrange decks I listed either. Was Crusader better? Yes. Substantially better? I don't think so. Was Thalia better than the cards I would have had there? (Brimaz, Crusader #3, Revoker #4) Definitely the Brimaz and 4th Revoker.

[iatee]

Eldrazi's an aggro deck. It's more comparable to Delver decks when looking at THC. She can be good if they have a slow start, but she also can eat a 1 mana spell for a huge tempo loss / be too slow to tax them meaningfully / be smaller than their dudes + unable to race a Delver/TNN/Goyf.

I wasn't suggesting that it was bad vs the midrange decks - I was suggesting that that's where it's going to be most consistently good since those are decks where your taxing effects are still very relevant turns 4-6. Anyway, I've played THC against a lot of aggro/tempo decks and exactly 0 blue midrange decks at this point. All I can say is I haven't found her consistently good vs aggro/tempo and those decks do make up a lot of the format.

PS Finn, I don't think anyone actually questions your history (which as you say, is mostly timestamped and online anyway), my guess is Enevoldsen genuinely wasn't aware that his friend got his deck from the internet.

[Marungo]

Eldrazi's an aggro deck. It's more comparable to Delver decks when looking at THC. She can be good if they have a slow start, but she also can eat a 1 mana spell for a huge tempo loss / be too slow to tax them meaningfully / be smaller than their dudes + unable to race a Delver/TNN/Goyf.

I wasn't suggesting that it was bad vs the midrange decks - I was suggesting that that's where it's going to be most consistently good since those are decks where your taxing effects are still very relevant turns 4-6. Anyway, I've played THC against a lot of aggro/tempo decks and exactly 0 blue midrange decks at this point. All I can say is I haven't found her consistently good vs aggro/tempo and those decks do make up a lot of the format.

PS Finn, I don't think anyone actually questions your history (which as you say, is mostly timestamped and online anyway), my guess is Enevoldsen genuinely wasn't aware that his friend got his deck from the internet.

Fair. Seems like we will have to agree to disagree on this point since I found her pretty good in some play test games I did and the one time I played vs delver

[Medea_]

@Iatee

I saw you musing about trying a third Path in the sideboard. Did you ever do any testing with that? I'm considering running the third to improve Eldrazi and Infect.

[MasterBlaster]

Ranting and raging.


I agree. It's shitty they aren't giving you props. But he might have forgotten it started as a list online. Easy to do if he got the deck from a friend.

Was there a D&T thread that existed before this current one?

[Fry]

I just found this article from June.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/gppra16/deck-tech-death-and-taxes-thomas-enevoldsen-2016-06-12

Olle Rade starts with this:


I have heard Thomas say before that he got it from Andreas when asked where the deck came from. But now he has moved on to claiming that Andreas designed the deck for this event, and that is flatly false. You have Olle Rade praising the originality of it all. And Thomas has again perpetuated the fairy tale with this response when he knows perfectly well that it is untrue.

To make this entirely clear, Andreas Petersen got that deck off the net. He got it from me. He did not design it. I did. I tested it against my friend Travis at my kitchen table. I named it. When I had the first working version I posted it on MtgSalvation in 2006. In near total obscurity I lead this deck's formation in the face of a community that largely panned it because it used cards like Flickerwisp, Plains, Mangara of Corondor, and Serra Avenger. Along with people who came and went over the years, I adapted the deck as new cards came along. Years of work figuring out everything not to do had already been figured out by 2012.

Thomas, you know this. Anyone who has been a member of the online Legacy community long enough knows this. There is a written history online. Every post is time stamped. When Olle Rade focused an article on the mothership about how original your creation is, that would have been a good time for you to come clean. Now you are even more trapped in this lie.

Whenever someone asks me about the deck, I say a guy in Florida developed the deck to the point he felt comfortable sharing it and it grew from there into the several iterations that it now supports by a guy named Finn on The Source and I give them the website and tell them to check out the primer and if it's under the Decks to Beat or Established at the time.

I'm sorry that you aren't getting credit for the creation/innovation that your baby has done for the Legacy format. It sucks not getting the credit when you're obviously the innovator. Anyone who knows their stuff knows YOU brought this deck forth from love and commitment to making it great. There have been other champions of the deck, but I don't think anyone has been as passionate about it than you.

You have my props for bringing to light one of my favorite decks that I've ever had the privilege to play. Heck it even won me a Black Lotus the first time I ever played the deck! At Jupiter Games back when it was the best place to play in the North East... Proceeded to sell it back to the store for a lot of the deck foil, so I've retained the value (3 Karakas, 3 MPR Wastelands, 1 Guru Plains for the friend who lent me the entire 75, 4 Foil SFM, etc.)

[Stevestamopz]

@Finn

Sure seems shitty for others to take credit for DnT, but it's the story Tomas has said many times. It's more than likely his friend took your deck and took credit for it without telling him. That said, it sure would be nice if people actually credited you for it. The evidence is quite clearly there. The closest I've ever seen you to being directly credited for it was Ari Lax's segment on the "Inside the Deck" segment on DnT, even though the narrator ignored that and went with "no one knows who designed the first DnT deck"... absolute horseshit.

In any case, everytime Sean and I (cohost on our podcast (https://thesaltminesite.com/)) play DnT at sanctioned events, we always write "Finn" as the deck's designer. It's sort of like with classic cars. Your 2+2 Mustang looks to the layman no different than a GT350 Fastback, but those in the know what time it is, and I think everyone here is in the same boat.

[iatee]

@Iatee

I saw you musing about trying a third Path in the sideboard. Did you ever do any testing with that? I'm considering running the third to improve Eldrazi and Infect.

I really like 3 and have even been testing 4. Sometimes you just need a removal spell, and even if you're going to 5-6 you're going to have games where you don't draw them. 7-8 and you now get to side into a Jund deck when you feel like it. I also take out Thalia more and more when I'm playing these games - you don't need to tempo them out, you just kill literally every threat they play.

Infect is a bad matchup, but one that can actually be turned into a totally fine matchup with your sideboard - which is generally not true for bad matchups. Path is usually fantastic against Eldrazi, though going deep on it does make you a bit softer to Chalice.

Also really like having 3 Path vs:

All Delver
Lands (protection from a fast combo without giving them 20 life)
Mirror (feels unfair to have 2x the removal)
Reanimator
Burn

I feel like that's enough of the field that it's really not that hard to justify using 3 SB spots for it.

[Scott]

I agree. It's shitty they aren't giving you props. But he might have forgotten it started as a list online. Easy to do if he got the deck from a friend.

Was there a D&T thread that existed before this current one?

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/legacy-archives/184486-deck-death-and-taxes

[Finn]

Iatee, Thomas knows. I must suck at using the search feature on this site because I can not turn up any results. But he and I have spoken about it on this very thread or possibly Salvation's. We just hadn't in years.

Thing is, he likes being associated with the deck and it is apparently against the narrative that the deck's origins have nothing to do with him.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent, fellas.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marungo, I am so pleased you had a good experience with THC - especially against BUG. I was unable to see her effect except during tests. Congratulations on your placing.

[iatee]

I think this is what you were referring to:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/control/179856-deck-death-and-taxes?page=186#c4664

[Bahra]

Iatee, Thomas knows. I must suck at using the search feature on this site because I can not turn up any results. But he and I have spoken about it on this very thread or possibly Salvation's. We just hadn't in years.

Thing is, he likes being associated with the deck and it is apparently against the narrative that the deck's origins have nothing to do with him.


Ugh, it's painful to read that excerpt from that article. It's just straight up lying. Very dishonest and bad mannered. I would've grown tired from legacy did I not stumble upon D&T that I enjoyed playing so much and still do, and you deserve a lot of the credit for that.

[Jon]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160805/ebe857139b51bc30ed6e5fea3a30e9e6.jpg

New Thalia plus Crackdown was hard for RUG Delver to beat lastnight.

New to the deck but went 3-1 at a local.

Beat Enchantress ( Port is good ), NicFit, and RUG Delver. Lost to shardless who drew 4 decay plus Deluges .

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk

[Coinman1863]

List for Reference:http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-05-16-imperial-taxes/

I was wondering what your thoughts on Grand Abolisher in Imperial Taxes was? I tried many other things in the slot and nothing really has worked well. The reason I chose Abolisher is that it can be fetched with Recruiter as well as be cast off of Cavern on Human like many other things in the deck. It also has the added benefit of not dying immediately to Dread of Night. In legacy, I think Abolisher's ability is really strong because it prevents your opponent from doing most things on your turn, which slows down many decks by a lot.

So, What are all your thoughts?

[iatee]

It seems pretty narrow. Okay against Miracles, but most of the Delver counterspells we care about are going to be t1 or t2 FoW / Daze. And making the opponent's removal sorcery speed isn't worth a card.

If you want a tutorable flex 2 drop, I'd say the following are the only ones powerful enough (and with broad enough application) to deserve consideration:

Relic-Warder
Containment Priest (meta call)
Ethersworn Canonist (meta call)
Kor Skyfisher (this card is no joke and I think everyone should play it)

[colo]

I really like Kor Skyfisher for it being an evasive beater with decent stats that you can rather carelessly tutor up with Imperial Recruiter, since you'll probably be abl to bounce it anway. It's one of the first threats I go for whenever the board state and matchup don't make a more definite answer or threat necessary.

I also love the one-of Fiendslayer Paladin I decided to run mainboard a few weeks ago. I've had it dominate Lands, Punishing Rock, Burn, and RUG Delver since then.

[Stevestamopz]

Tournament report with Imperial Taxes: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/comments/4woqvy/imperial_taxes_tournament_report/

[KingOfThePanda]

My friend plays D&T and I was wondering how the new Thalia was working for you guys. I played the deck in a locals and didn't see her all tournament. I was trying 1 or 2 main (can't really remember) . In theory, it should be busted. The only thing I see wrong would be her cost. 3 mana is a lot outside of vial, and she could take up a whole turn.

[Medea_]

My friend plays D&T and I was wondering how the new Thalia was working for you guys. I played the deck in a locals and didn't see her all tournament. I was trying 1 or 2 main (can't really remember) . In theory, it should be busted. The only thing I see wrong would be her cost. 3 mana is a lot outside of vial, and she could take up a whole turn.

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=466

Here are my condensed thoughts on THC. It's probably nothing new to most of you, as I and others have already pretty much discussed everything in here or on MtG:S to some degree.

[Zombie]

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=466

Here are my condensed thoughts on THC. It's probably nothing new to most of you, as I and others have already pretty much discussed everything in here or on MtG:S to some degree.

Seems pretty much in line with what I expected. She's a brutal haymaker and having a bunch of dorks to power her out T2 should be great. Not to mention the Exalted triggers in Maverick. Who's going to block 5/4 first strike? Not many. Those decks also have some outs to the problems you outlined - KOTR, big Oozes and the like. GWx Heretic sounds really lovely atm.

[Finn]

Phil, enjoying your site.

Re: THC fitting better into something with accel, sure that is ideal. In the long run though, she will probably still find her home in D+T primarily simply because she fits in perfectly with what this deck wants to do, and D+T is clearly well-positioned in the meta to take advantage of her utility.

More on that; let us not forget that this deck does not need to win in a landslide. The caveat of course, is that you are going to die to Elves and Sneak Attack and Reality Smasher from time to time before you get to three mana. I am happy to give a few of those away in exchange for the all the wins we get from having so many angles of disruption all in the same deck.

Also, my testing feels light against Miracles and Eldrazi. Anyone have data on how THC impacts those matchups?

--PandaKing, I hope this conversation has answered your questions in some fashion.

[kellysandall]

Whats your guys opinions on containment priest vs hallowed moonlight? Moonlight hits entreat the angels and only last a turn while priest blocks up our vials indefinitely?

[Farone]

Whats your guys opinions on containment priest vs hallowed moonlight? Moonlight hits entreat the angels and only last a turn while priest blocks up our vials indefinitely?


Priest can be vialed in, so you wont have to have 2 mana open. The fact that it shuts down afterwards is irrelevant for me, since most decks you want to play it against ,after priest enters the battefield, you are so far ahead it should be ok to finish the game.

[Svyelunite]

Also, my testing feels light against Miracles and Eldrazi. Anyone have data on how THC impacts those matchups?

I'm primarily a dirty Infect player, but I run me some DnT on occasion. I tried a pretty stock list with 2x THC in the 3 CMC Flex slots (along with 2x Mirran Crusader) at a 70 person Win a Mox event in Atlanta a few weeks ago. I played Eldrazi 2x during the event and she was pretty good, especially when you are on the play, she can be really devastating against them. Honestly, the best part about her I found was that when you get the flavor-fail combo of her and her other self, nothing in the Drazi deck can attack you. 5 power First strike is a beating. Also, any of the equipment on her makes her impossible to single block, even with Reality Smasher, which IMO is a big deal. It seems we can usually hold parity against all but the Eldrazi nut hand, and having a creature that can attack safely with a SoFI or Jitte is pretty baller.

I agree with Finn's assessment that she will almost certainly become a mainstay of the deck in some capacity. She seems to fill a role much like Mirran Crusader, but against different decks. Crusader obviously being better against Rock decks (not to say THC is a slouch in those matchups), and THC being better against Drazi and various combo decks (Storm, Dredge, Sneak and Show). Long term, I bet we see her a bunch as she just fits so well with the deck's gameplan.

[kellysandall]

Priest can be vialed in, so you wont have to have 2 mana open. The fact that it shuts down afterwards is irrelevant for me, since most decks you want to play it against ,after priest enters the battefield, you are so far ahead it should be ok to finish the game.

With miracles being such a large presence and perceivably a bad match up you dont think hallowed moonlight is worth it?

[mykatdied]

Personally I don't think that effect is worth it. If you even resolve it. If hallowed moonlight is going to make or break that game, you likely already lost.

[deucegg]

Are you guys playing Eiganjo Castle now? Making Thalia 2.0 Lightning Bolt proof seems pretty good, especially with the amount of Grixis Delver around nowadays. Apart from that, I'm currently trying 3 Cavern of Souls. I feel consistently dropping a Thalia 1.0 or 2.0 turn 2/3 vs Delver Decks through Fow/ Daze is pretty damn good, to the point that it can win you the game itself. Thalia 2.0 being human also helps with having enough actual humans to cast with Cavern (alongside with Mom, Thalia 1.0, Crusader).
I've dropped lands like Flagstones of Trokair/ Horizon Canopy for them order to have enough basics to play (8 currently), and while I've had games with 2 Caverns and 0 Plains, I feel like 3 Caverns is still pretty good. What are your thoughts?

[iatee]

3 Caverns has been great in Imperial, but it has the extra bonus of color fixing + the deck is more than 50% humans. I think it's viable even in Mono-W, but only if you play exactly 0 Serra Avengers. Flickerwisp also can be a little awkward, but you do have the option of resetting the Cavern with it.

[deucegg]

3 Caverns has been great in Imperial, but it has the extra bonus of color fixing + the deck is more than 50% humans. I think it's viable even in Mono-W, but only if you play exactly 0 Serra Avengers. Flickerwisp also can be a little awkward, but you do have the option of resetting the Cavern with it.

True, I think its pretty good in Imperial Taxes. However, I think we can still play 3 alongside with Avenger/ Flickerwisp. Most of the time, you'll only need one Cavern on human (maybe two if one gets wastelanded). You can set the other two Caverns on Angel/ Elemental, depending on the situation. You still have 8 basics, 3 Karakas, Eiganjo Castle and Vials to cast/ get into play Flicker or Angel. The main idea behind playing 3 Caverns is getting Thalia 1.0/2.0 safely into play turn 2 or 3, which makes her crucially better. Having to wait an extra turn for Vial can easily be punished, especially by tempo-oriented decks.

[iatee]

I have played literally thousands of games with your manabase (3 Caverns / 12 pure white sources) and I can tell you the Cavern will definitely cost you some games over time if you run Avenger. Try it if you don't believe me, but 3 Caverns stretch the manabase to the limits for Imperial already. (Otherwise I'd be playing 4.)

Cavern's a very powerful card, I've been pushing it as much as anyone...but you have to be willing to give up some of your dependency on WW and non-humans if you want to get away with such a greedy (and high-powered) manabase.

[deucegg]

True, Ive had games where double cavern fucked me up and even made me lose the game. It definitely is greedy, but imo still worth it.

What about Eiganjo Castle?

[Marungo]

Eiganjo castle is far from unreasonable and is probably worth a shot. I just have never wanted it in the matchups where it's good cause it requires mana up and bolt decks (typically delver) are typically good matchups anyhow. Worth testing? Definitely. I just don't like too many wasteable or blood moonable white lands.

Other thing I want to discuss is the miracles question. Not hallowed moonlight, I think the card is terrible and cost 3 with Thalia, but the idea that miracles is a bad matchup. Do you guys agree with that cause I feel once you get good with the deck we're slightly favored? Nothing huge but slight favorites

[mykatdied]

Eiganjo castle is far from unreasonable and is probably worth a shot. I just have never wanted it in the matchups where it's good cause it requires mana up and bolt decks (typically delver) are typically good matchups anyhow. Worth testing? Definitely. I just don't like too many wasteable or blood moonable white lands.

Other thing I want to discuss is the miracles question. Not hallowed moonlight, I think the card is terrible and cost 3 with Thalia, but the idea that miracles is a bad matchup. Do you guys agree with that cause I feel once you get good with the deck we're slightly favored? Nothing huge but slight favorites

With experience miracles is laughable at best, even at worst. If you listen to TEs recent interview that was how he guaranteed top 8 at gp Strausburg. He got into the draw bracket and beat miracles 3 or 4 matches after that. I think with enough experience we can make miracles a very favored match up to slightly favored at worst

[Stevestamopz]

If you want to stick it to Entreat the Angels/Tokens, play Ratchet Bomb. That card is really really good against quite a lot of decks, Miracles included.

Containment Priest is miles better than Hallowed Moonlight.

[Marungo]

With experience miracles is laughable at best, even at worst. If you listen to TEs recent interview that was how he guaranteed top 8 at gp Strausburg. He got into the draw bracket and beat miracles 3 or 4 matches after that. I think with enough experience we can make miracles a very favored match up to slightly favored at worst

Yeah I've won my last 8 matches or so in tournaments to miracles. I was just wondering cause I know some people have differing views on things like matchups (such as people who say we are favored against ANT). I love playing miracles but didn't want to assume everyone had the same experience

[Medea_]

For every colorless mana-producing land you run, you reduce your ability to cheat in equipment with Stoneforge, cast StP in a timely fashion, and cast double white cards (including Council's Judgment, Cataclysm, Gideon). I don't think it's worth going too deep to improve the Miracles matchup (it's already even to good to start with). Cavern is, I'd argue, actively bad in most matchups that aren't Miracles. I've said time and time again that the card would likely be unplayable if Miracles wasn't a thing. Our deck is mathematically light on white sources. Vial lets us cheat a bit, but there is no reason to push it. Once you start factoring in Wastelands, Blood Moons, and the like, extra non-basics start to seem less appealing. In order for a huge number of Caverns to be appealing, you have to be darn close to tribal, something along the lines of what Iatee et al. have been playing with the splash.

Hallowed Moonlight is probably unplayable. Containment Priest is so much better against things like Dredge, Reanimator, Elves, and Sneak and Show that the upside of being able to hit Entreat is just not worth it. I know that I'm certainly not holding up mana for that all game; I'd rather have a Warping Wail at that point so it could hit Terminus as well. It also doesn't play well with Vial and Thalia.

[Adan]

With experience miracles is laughable at best, even at worst. If you listen to TEs recent interview that was how he guaranteed top 8 at gp Strausburg. He got into the draw bracket and beat miracles 3 or 4 matches after that. I think with enough experience we can make miracles a very favored match up to slightly favored at worst

I played Miracles a couple of times now and I think the matchup is by far not as good as you state it to be. You have to take into account that Miracles is per default the best deck in the format. Hence, people (including me) pick it up sometimes but have no idea what to do against certain matchups.

In my experience it all really boils down to Aether Vial. Against Miracles I tend to mulligan very aggressively to Aether Vial because otherwise Counterbalance is live. But other than that, it's difficult to win against multiple sweepers and spotremoval if you don't happen to be able to bounce your legendary creatures around with Karakas and Vial, or simply stick Mother of Runes which is also rather mediocre in that matchup. But multiple StoPs with multiple Snapcasters are extremely annoying.
I won almost all the games where I had Aether Vial and I can just recall winning one game without. I lost one game with Aether Vial because Sulfur Elemental (and then he had StoP, StoP, Snapcaster for Batterskull that I flickered 3 times).

But I realized that I underrated Sword of Fire and Ice in that matchups as it transforms every creature into a serious threat (Jace-proof and can't be chumped by Snapcasters) which allows you to apply pressure without overextending.

[Next_rim]

Just debuted my new THC tech at a weekly - 8x thalias and 3x ancient tombs maindeck. Clean 4-0 sweep, turn 2 THC wins games on the spot.

Additional benefit of turn 1 revoker, turn 1 warping wail and general speed boost felt good. Will keep on testing. I cut 1x port, cavern and mishra factory for the tombs, and cut leonin relic-warders and serra avengers for thalias.

[Barook]

Just debuted my new THC tech at a weekly - 8x thalias and 3x ancient tombs maindeck. Clean 4-0 sweep, turn 2 THC wins games on the spot.

Additional benefit of turn 1 revoker, turn 1 warping wail and general speed boost felt good. Will keep on testing. I cut 1x port, cavern and mishra factory for the tombs, and cut leonin relic-warders and serra avengers for thalias.
Can you post your list? I'm also interested in your SB.

[Bosque]

Just debuted my new THC tech at a weekly - 8x thalias and 3x ancient tombs maindeck. Clean 4-0 sweep, turn 2 THC wins games on the spot.

Additional benefit of turn 1 revoker, turn 1 warping wail and general speed boost felt good. Will keep on testing. I cut 1x port, cavern and mishra factory for the tombs, and cut leonin relic-warders and serra avengers for thalias.

Have you tried Soldier Stompy?

[Next_rim]

Can you post your list? I'm also interested in your SB.

Here is the list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legacy-death-and-taxes-copy-3/


Have you tried Soldier Stompy?

No. Why would I? Its a different deck. I just tested some alternative ways to land a turn 2 thc.

[Barook]

Here is the list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/legacy-death-and-taxes-copy-3/
How good has been MD Warping Wail for you? I wonder if it's better than Eldrazi Displacer in that slot, given the number of colorless sources you have.

[zebotc]

I was introduced to this deck about two years ago and immediately was drawn towards it because I always enjoy playing different and unique kinds of strategies. So far every time I've played it I've had a blast and I've never had more fun playing magic than with this deck. So recently I've decided to finally get serious and build the deck for real. I was just wondering what you guys think of the list that I've worked out using the new Thalia, is there anything that you guys might consider changing?

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Rishadan Port
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Serra Avenger
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage

[Farone]

I was introduced to this deck about two years ago and immediately was drawn towards it because I always enjoy playing different and unique kinds of strategies. So far every time I've played it I've had a blast and I've never had more fun playing magic than with this deck. So recently I've decided to finally get serious and build the deck for real. I was just wondering what you guys think of the list that I've worked out using the new Thalia, is there anything that you guys might consider changing?

4 Flickerwisp
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
11 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 AEther Vial
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Rishadan Port
1 Mangara of Corondor
2 Serra Avenger
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage


seems fine with me! Maybe Mishra's Factory over a Plains:) But that is just my personal preference.

[Next_rim]

How good has been MD Warping Wail for you? I wonder if it's better than Eldrazi Displacer in that slot, given the number of colorless sources you have.

I like it. Poops on grixis and shardless, and gives an edge against miracles game 1. It always finds a target in every matchup.

[DisgruntledElk]

Good evening everyone,

I have been playing a bunch (though not as much as I'd like) to test the new White Eldrazi/Thalia Stompy list I have. As it is neither Eldrazi nor DnT, I figured I'd post it here and see what y'all think. I've had 1 bad league (I do most of my testing on MODO) where I was on the draw 5 matches in a row with horrendous draws and 2-3'ed, but otherwise I have had numerous 4-1s and 5-0'ed last night.

The list is currently:

Creatures: 22
2 Stoneforge
2 Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem

Spells: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Mox Diamond

Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors (though right now I have 1 Crystal Vein online because of dignity :P)
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Karakas

SB: 15
2 Disenchant
3 RIP
3 STP
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warping WailM
2 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest

This has felt like the best Thalia, Heretic Cathar shell I have seen or played. A few posts back a player commented on how his testing with Ancient Tomb to power out a turn 2 THC was gamebreaking. While I 100% agree, having the turn 1 THC will often put your opponent so far behind they will lose on the spot. For example, against Miracles to finish out 5-0, I ran out THC turn 1 into Thorn + Thalia GoT turn 2. He was dead in 3 turns and couldn't cast a removal spell until turn 4 :P.

What I really like about this deck though(despite loving the nut draws), is that it has the pros of a traditional stompy list with a lot less of the downside. The upside in my experience of a traditional stompy list is that they can have insane turn 1-3 plays, but if your opponent can get out of/disrupt the lock, they often win handily because you now either can't cast the rest of your cards (wasteland'ed out), or run out of gas. Th is deck is fine not having a nut draw and just playing a turn 2 Thalia, GoT or SFM and does just fine.

While I am not arguing that this deck is strictly better than DnT (I have played the deck for years and love my altered Moms, Thalias, SFMs, and equipment), I will put forth the reasons you may want to try this out.

Compared to DnT:
1. You can play hate pieces on turn 1. I'm sure we all know how miserable it is to lose to a lame combo deck because we simply didn't have a turn 2. Being able to run out a Chalice, Thalia, Revoker, Warping Wail, or post board RIP, thorn, or Containment priest feels so good and it really leads to a much more favorable matchup against these degenerate decks.
2. You don't lose to a single piece of designated hate Dread of night became a staple in my meta due to my success with DnT, and it was so incredibly frustrating to lose to. While I know we don't just fold 100% to a dread, it is often incredibly difficult to beat. -1/-1 effects (as well as punishing fire) also have very little impact on this deck (literally just killing 5 of the creatures in the deck) which is a nice change of pace
3. Kill speed is much, much faster It is very nice to be able to just run through games killing people at good speeds. At larger tournaments especially, it is nice to be able to have a break between rounds, and it is even nicer to be able to save the mental energy that is required in a 40-50-minute match.

Anyway, it is quite late so please excuse anything I may have left out. I love the deck thus far and am very excited to discuss it!

[Fatal]

Actually I'm playing similar D&T/Eldrazi Stompy mix, just evolve a little:
Hey, it's W/g Eldrazi


3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Endbringer
3 Blade Splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer

4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Mox Diamond
4 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
4 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Savannah
//SB
3 Warping Wail
4 Reclamation Sage
4 Rest in Peace
2 Tsunami //could be Collar or something vs meta call
2 Constant Mists


Few words about build -

I'm very happy not running any removal except Jitte MD, I also resolve Batterskull problem with 5/3 First Strike Golem thanks to Blade Splicer which is really very nice. It's a solid double creature more over ppl mostly kill token (bolt ect) since it gives a clock even better then Mattery Reshaper (which isn't my favorite since it dies to STP/Terminus with no benefits)

If you lose to flipped Delver, this mean opponent had too many wastelands - it happens, but most time you DON't need to kill that delver - you race it. Have jitte/Displacer if things get messy.

Golems are great vs Goyfs as more "Smashers" additional gives more egde against combo, specially with mentioned Blade Splicer.

Blade Splicer has also one more advantage - it's great vs BUG, Strix, Liliana ect.. It's not a problem just sacrifice token if needed, then Eldrazi Displacer gives you unlimited number of Tokens - just 2C x 3/3 Token with First Strike.

New Thalia proven in many other builds so it's not a surprise to running it.

Since SFM get popular again in many variants actually I omit it in my build since, it's slow and not good vs Combo. Maybe some SB slots if needed.

SB:

Reclamation Sage is probably best 2-for-1 creature - I wanted something which can't be hit by spell pierce, or get taxed by my own Thalia, additional Sage is best to S&T/Omni answer.

Rest in Peace - doesn't need to be explain.

Tsunami - that is probably interesting - it's mostly vs slow control decks - also miracles, but also a BUG Control (not shardless variants) with a lot of removal like innocent blood/Decay on chalice ect) - it's rather a meta call - not having any burn in meta - too many miracles.

Constant Mists - that's a new tool vs Mirror/Elves/Lands - since they can't interact with spells mostly, you can easily deny their Hoofs/Marit token turn, repeatable fog effect can give easily egde over opponent specially with so many first strike creatures (3 Splicer / 4 Golem - with spilcer / 3 Thalia / 3 Thalia 2.0 - gives 13 first strike creatures).

I would be very happy when WotC would print white version of Sage - just a disenchant on legs..

[Medea_]

Welp, if the cat is out of the bag that this strategy is insane, I guess I'll post my list as well. I've done some slight tweaking, but I got this from a pair of guys at Gen Con who were crushing side events. I've only got around 80 games in with it so far, but it seems pretty nutty. I'm not 100% convinced that all my numbers are correct or that I have the correct creature suite, but the general strategy feels amazing.

Creature (26)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Reality Smasher
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Karakas
7x Plains
4x Wasteland
Artifact (10)
1x Batterskull
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lotus Petal
1x Umezawa's Jitte

Sideboard (15)
2x Pithing Needle
4x Rest in Peace
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Warping Wail
1x Armageddon

[Richard Arschmann]

How does 8Thalia.dec deal with something like Sneak & Show with only 1 Karakas?

[Nihils]

How does 8Thalia.dec deal with something like Sneak & Show with only 1 Karakas?

With the Displacers in the main, I could see 3-4 Containment Priest being pretty nasty in the SB. Otherwise, T1 new Thalia, early TKS, Chalice hurting cantrips, etc.

[DisgruntledElk]

How does 8Thalia.dec deal with something like Sneak & Show with only 1 Karakas?

I have been running 2 karakas as protecting your own Thalias is a nice bonus. On top of that I have 2 Revokers. But really being able to shut off their mana with Lodestone, Thalia 1 & 2, and 4 wasteland in conjunction with chalice is often enough. Oh, and I have 2 main warping wail to counter show and tell.

So, answers to SnS:

Sneak attack: Revoker, Thalia HC, mana denial, needle, disenchant, and Containment Priest Post-board
Show and Tell: Warping Wail, mana denial, Karakas, Containment Priest and another warping wail post board

[mykatdied]

I have been running 2 karakas as protecting your own Thalias is a nice bonus. On top of that I have 2 Revokers. But really being able to shut off their mana with Lodestone, Thalia 1 & 2, and 4 wasteland in conjunction with chalice is often enough. Oh, and I have 2 main warping wail to counter show and tell.

So, answers to SnS:

Sneak attack: Revoker, Thalia HC, mana denial, needle, disenchant, and Containment Priest Post-board
Show and Tell: Warping Wail, mana denial, Karakas, Containment Priest and another warping wail post board

Further defense of your list against sneak and show. Chalice shuts down their cantrips. If they have half the combo they now have to naturally draw the other half with brainstorm or ponder to fix their draws

[Barook]

As an avid D&T and White Eldrazi player, I'm happy to finally see hybrid lists pop up. And since they don't run Port, even I can use them on MTGO. :tongue:

The main appeal of White Eldrazi compared to D&T was the brutal speed in combination with possible T1 disruption, both elements D&T is lacking.

Elements I would definitely keep from White Eldrazi when building a hybrid list with are the Displacers, at least 2 Karakas copies and TKS. Reality Smasher would also be nice, if supportable. Thorn is imho only a SB card, especially with GoT already in the maindeck. Warping Wails should definitely be in the 75 - whether or not they're MD material depends on the list.

It's also debatable which direction to take from here. Should we go for the really tax-heavy approach with Lodestone Golem? Or for a strategy more focused on beatdown with Reality Smasher?

As for white mana accel, I personally prefered Lotus Petal over Mox Diamond in my White Eldrazi list, although things could turn out different since the basics are different.

Those mana artifacts bring me to another, interesting point: With THC, Moxen and Sol Lands, Winter Orb becomes alot more feasible (and brutal). That's why I might lean towards a more tax-heavy approach initially.

As for Containment Priest, when I still had more white in my deck, I ran a 3/3 split of Priest/RiP in the board. Felt pretty good.

Edit: Given the amount of hate it can pack for S&T in the 75, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Eldrazi Displacer alone is already pure hell for them.

Edit #2: If we run at least 3 SFM, I would definitely suggest trying to run multiple Swords of X & Y in the 75 to cover all 5 colors in protection. When I ran the "Xenoblade" plan in my more white-heavy Eldrazi list, I used Fire & Ice, Feast & Famine and War & Peace. Not sure if works here as well, but that would be 3 slots at best for potentially quite nutty gains in several match-ups.

[Finn]

I am kinda partial to the mystic-free builds. It frees up a lot of spaces to try out other stuff.

For example, I like the shitty things you can do with Thought-Knot Seer, Eldrazi Displacer, and Spirit of the Labyrinth or having Lodestone Golem, Thalia, and Thalia out at the same time. Or just make the freed up slots into removal. (Also, Reality Smasher seems to not quite fit.)

One more thing: With the effective curve of the deck moved up one whole mana symbol, there are a lot of hitherto weakly considered white spells that start to look good, though there is the cozy agreement that the first Cavern of Gemstones goes to human to consider. This might stretch the manabase too much.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Restoration Angel
Voidstone Gargoyle
etc

[NeckBird]

I am kinda partial to the mystic-free builds. It frees up a lot of spaces to try out other stuff.

For example, I like the shitty things you can do with Thought-Knot Seer, Eldrazi Displacer, and Spirit of the Labyrinth or having Lodestone Golem, Thalia, and Thalia out at the same time. Or just make the freed up slots into removal. (Also, Reality Smasher seems to not quite fit.)

One more thing: With the effective curve of the deck moved up one whole mana symbol, there are a lot of hitherto weakly considered white spells that start to look good, though there is the cozy agreement that the first Cavern of Gemstones goes to human to consider. This might stretch the manabase too much.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Restoration Angel
Voidstone Gargoyle
etc

This is the list that I've been working on.

Creatures (26)
4 Endless One
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
Spells (9)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
2 Plains
Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
75 Cards Total


Definitely agree with you on no Stoneforge Mystic. She, unfortunately, takes up too much deck space and doesn't synergize well with the deck as she's a third creature type to name with Cavern of Souls. I'd rather keep the deck as streamlined as possible and not have anything other than Human or Eldrazi in the 75 with the exception of Revoker cause Revoker is a beast. For this reason, I don't like Lodestone Golem in the 75 or Phyrexian Revoker maindeck. Besides, Thought Knot Seer is, for all intents and purposes, the same thing as Lodestone. Don't know how good Matter Reshaper is. Could definitely see it becoming extra Mox Diamond's or even a white Talisman.

[Barook]

I am kinda partial to the mystic-free builds. It frees up a lot of spaces to try out other stuff.

For example, I like the shitty things you can do with Thought-Knot Seer, Eldrazi Displacer, and Spirit of the Labyrinth or having Lodestone Golem, Thalia, and Thalia out at the same time. Or just make the freed up slots into removal. (Also, Reality Smasher seems to not quite fit.)

One more thing: With the effective curve of the deck moved up one whole mana symbol, there are a lot of hitherto weakly considered white spells that start to look good, though there is the cozy agreement that the first Cavern of Gemstones goes to human to consider. This might stretch the manabase too much.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Restoration Angel
Voidstone Gargoyle
etc
If you want to go for Spirit of the Labyrinth shenanigans, I would also consider both Geier Reach Sanitarium and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea for card advantage. Sanitarium also gives you another way to completely draw-lock your opponent out of the game aside from instant speed removal. Sanitarium could also help you filter your deck of redundant dead cards. Problem is, without Spirit in play, your opponent can do the same, so it's a double-edged sword.

But maybe that's just too cute and the more tax-heavy approach is more promising. Spirit and a few land slots shouldn't taking away that much deck space for that other angle of attack, though.

[Fatal]

Few words about manabase in W/g lists, mostly Lotus Petal vs Mox Diamond:
Lotus Petal doesn't disadvantage your land count so virtually some hands will be playable in short term. Mox Diamond is more long term mana source, since you want running at as much as possible Sol lands (conting Eldrazi Temple) this mean you want be able to have constant white source.

I'm actually rnuning 12 cards which require white (3 of them are Eldrazi other are Humans - which helps). Since most SB are spells or not humans (Sage looking at you), Cavern of Souls can't be used so spreadly to have options to play SB cards.

So
12 White cards, 10 Eldrazi (C require), and 10 Colorless (non-C require) gives mix of Sol lands and white/green mana:

4 Eldrazi Temple - one of the best land
4 Ancient Tomb,
4 City of Traitors - it's necessary evil
2 Wasteland
1 Eye of Ugin - it's probably debatable - maybe 3th wasteland/Sea Gate Wreckage/Colored source ?
------------------
15 C source

4 Brushland
2 Savannah
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
-------------------
10 W source / 8 G source

Little inbalance vs colors required, but it's needed to still have exposive starts, that's why I fix them with 3 Mox Diamonds - it's good to replace 2nd City, or Karakas. Longer I think I should replace Eye of Ugin for wasteland, I never use it's ability. I would rather use Sea Gate Wreckage, since you can empty hand faster with Moxes.

Last debatable lands are 2 savannah's since I'm running quite a lot of green cards I need to keep as much as possible Green sources, even with Mox those are only 11 ones, which not always come, specially when needed as soon as possible / Bridge /Skull etc.

I was also thinking about changing 1 brushland, 2 savannah and Eye for 2 fetchlands two basics to fight moon effects. Adding Moxes it would give 7 turn 1 play vs moon (on play), and 4 exits to moon turn 1 on draw.

I don't like SotL at all it feeds goyf (add here artifact and you have problems), it can be champed very easy, and last one - it does the same as chalice, but worst. Only advantage which I'm seeing is negate TKS draw trigger in their turn. Revoker seems better in this slot - still not a fan of it.

[Barook]

@Fatal: I think you're too greedy trying to force green and white while having various creature types for Cavern. I'm also not a fan of 4x City. Yes, it's a necessary evil, but 4 is really pushing it. I don't see a point in running Eye with your current set-up.

I like what DisgruntledElk and Medea are aiming for better. The should definitely aim to have a better manabase than regular Eldrazi as that is one of the deck's big weak points.

[Sisyphos]

The list is currently:

Creatures: 22
2 Stoneforge
2 Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem

Spells: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Mox Diamond

Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors (though right now I have 1 Crystal Vein online because of dignity :P)
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Karakas

SB: 15
2 Disenchant
3 RIP
3 STP
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warping WailM
2 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest

Played your list in a small local tourney with some small changes:
+1 Revoker +1 SFM -1 THC -1 Dismember

Went 3-0-1, winning against Storm, Nic Fit and Elves, drawing against Miracles. Finished the third extra turn with a lethal attack lined up for turn 5 with him empry handed, but he topdecked a random creature to chump on his turn. Felt bad, but looking back on it, he had a lot of outs.

Liked the list a lot, had a lot of good synergy, though I sometimes got stuck with a bunch of 4-drops in hand. Also I have to admit against Miracles I was really missing something with haste to pressure him after a sweeper or to kill his Jace. I'll probably try to get 2-3 Reality Smasher into the board.

[Fatal]

@Fatal: I think you're too greedy trying to force green and white while having various creature types for Cavern. I'm also not a fan of 4x City. Yes, it's a necessary evil, but 4 is really pushing it. I don't see a point in running Eye with your current set-up.

I like what DisgruntledElk and Medea are aiming for better. The should definitely aim to have a better manabase than regular Eldrazi as that is one of the deck's big weak points.

I already replaced Eye - building list with evolving each game, playing for a while with 2 fetchland 2 basics.

[monovfox]

Me and a local player have been testing Dnt splash blue for spell queller. I think it's very good, but the manabase is a bit fragile so your sequencing has to be perfect. His list features 3 eldrazi displacer, 1 aven mindcensor, and 3 queller as the 3 drops while mine is 4 wisp and 3 queller.


I think both versions are valid as displacer and wisp are very unique cards with different functions. The idea behind the UW list is that it is a disruptive tempo deck. In my version when vial is ticked up to 3 you are essentially threatening flickerwisp and spell queller (which acts a lot like flickerwisp, so essentially the list is 7 flickerwisps) for the rest of the game (huge tempo plays). Queller does a really good job at protecting equipment and stopping low-cost "fuck white creatures" spells. I don't know if I would take the list to a major tournament, but it has been quite fun. I recommend you guys test out the card (and possibly a spellskite with it?) and play the UW splash with meddling mage. Queller + mage have a lot of synergy with each other.

Hope others feel inspired to go along with the splash. I'm very excited about it, and for those you who know me you'll know I HATE splashes in this deck with a burning passion, so make of that what you will.

[mykatdied]

Me and a local player have been testing Dnt splash blue for spell queller. I think it's very good, but the manabase is a bit fragile so your sequencing has to be perfect. His list features 3 eldrazi displacer, 1 aven mindcensor, and 3 queller as the 3 drops while mine is 4 wisp and 3 queller.


I think both versions are valid as displacer and wisp are very unique cards with different functions. The idea behind the UW list is that it is a disruptive tempo deck. In my version when vial is ticked up to 3 you are essentially threatening flickerwisp and spell queller (which acts a lot like flickerwisp, so essentially the list is 7 flickerwisps) for the rest of the game (huge tempo plays). Queller does a really good job at protecting equipment and stopping low-cost "fuck white creatures" spells. I don't know if I would take the list to a major tournament, but it has been quite fun. I recommend you guys test out the card (and possibly a spellskite with it?) and play the UW splash with meddling mage. Queller + mage have a lot of synergy with each other.

Hope others feel inspired to go along with the splash. I'm very excited about it, and for those you who know me you'll know I HATE splashes in this deck with a burning passion, so make of that what you will.

I've been running a blue splash for a while now. I have only tested spell queller out of the board, where I saw it working best was against lands. I only got to test it once as I've been playing around with brews in legacy the past few weeks. Focusing mostly on new thalia. What have your experiences with queller been like? Any plays that really stuck out? Maybe specifically what spells do you generally try to hit with it. I love hitting an abrupt decay with it. I have found with 4 Flickerwisp and 2 restoration angel it was a lot of fun using spell queller. I have loved having vial on 3 and 4 mana for resto to have the curve of queller into resto on a key spell.

[monovfox]

Queller is really good when the lock is down regardless of vial's ticks. I got to exile my opponent's toxic deluge for 4 life which was pretty sweet. I also got to exile a snapcaster mage which was pretty sweet. I dunno, basically he's just pretty neat and exiles annoying stuff and beats for 2. Perfect fit IMO, and the only creature really worth splashing for (besides meddling mage, which by itself was never worth the splash due to it being so delicate)

[colo]

Perfect fit IMO, and the only creature really worth splashing for

It's been a while since I last toyed with the U splash, but I don't think you should so readily dismiss at least Geist of Saint Traft, Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique and True-Name Nemesis (not saying they should all get a spot, but they are worth considering in general, depending on what you want your build to do). I also always felt an urge to try Thassa, God of the Sea for her Scry trigger and synergy with Geist, for example.

[mykatdied]

It's been a while since I last toyed with the U splash, but I don't think you should so readily dismiss at least Geist of Saint Traft, Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique and True-Name Nemesis (not saying they should all get a spot, but they are worth considering in general, depending on what you want your build to do). I also always felt an urge to try Thassa, God of the Sea for her Scry trigger and synergy with Geist, for example.

Did you ever toy with ephara? The uw god? I thought having access to vial she might be really good against miracles dropping in a creature once a turn possibly to draw some cards?

[Bosque]

Did you ever toy with ephara? The uw god? I thought having access to vial she might be really good against miracles dropping in a creature once a turn possibly to draw some cards?

I tried that for awhile in UW Taxes in modern. It never quite really worked out there, so I think we'd have a much harder time justifying it in legacy.

[colo]

No, never considered her; imho doesn't seem strong enough of an effect to warrant a 4-mana investment (or Vial at four).

Fwiw, there's a Blue and Taxes list with a recent top8 finish posted here: http://www.azmagicplayers.com/event-coverage/azmagicplayers-com-2016-legacy-series-tempe-city-championships-top-8-decklists/ (8th place).

[mykatdied]

As much as I am a big fan of Clique I like the simple splash in that list. A lot more UW in costs. I will say UU is awkward at times. Geist is a house. Suit him up with a sword and you just win quickly. Against enchantress I had a 16 point swing with him using sword of war and peace.

As for ephara many players have been toying with gideon and other 4 drops against miracles and shardless. Especially against shardless she seems like she could help us keep up with cards.

[iatee]

Ephara is a 4 drop that does literally nothing on its own / when it resolves. That's not strong enough for any format, let alone legacy. I think UW taxes does need to find some source of card selection+advantage (the other splashes have Recruiter, Library, Bob) but that's not gonna be it.

[mykatdied]

Ephara is a 4 drop that does literally nothing on its own / when it resolves. That's not strong enough for any format, let alone legacy. I think UW taxes does need to find some source of card selection+advantage (the other splashes have Recruiter, Library, Bob) but that's not gonna be it.

I'll let you know.

[monovfox]

The whole point of that blue has the most effective lock protection and the most ways to generate tempo on turn 2 compared to the other splashes. You don't need CA if you're 2-3 turns ahead

[Rmosto]

Hi All,

First time posting. I have been brewing white stompy nonstop since Thalia 2.0 was spoiled and have settled on a list during the last month that I am very happy with. The deck ended up taking a turn more towards prison, so I thought I would post it here to add to the discussion. I am by no means a death and taxes purist, so I apologize if I am breaking some rules posting a deck that has no ports or vials in this thread.

The deck is very strong against miracles, delver and storm.. and even the current form of eldrazi stompy.

Lands: 26

6 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

Spells: 10

3 Mox Diamond
1 Warping Wail
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void

Creatures: 24

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Thalia 2.0
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

SB: 15

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Rest in Peace
3 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
2 Winter Orb

If interested, I can post my sideboard plan. This list is currently 16-3 against miracles on mtgo 2 man tournaments and it feels great having the miracles so much in my favor. Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Also if I shouldn't post this here, let me know.

Cheers,

Rmosto

[Ciubulu]

Hi All,

First time posting. I have been brewing white stompy nonstop since Thalia 2.0 was spoiled and have settled on a list during the last month that I am very happy with. The deck ended up taking a turn more towards prison, so I thought I would post it here to add to the discussion. I am by no means a death and taxes purist, so I apologize if I am breaking some rules posting a deck that has no ports or vials in this thread.

The deck is very strong against miracles, delver and storm.. and even the current form of eldrazi stompy.

Lands: 26

6 Plains
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Karakas
3 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland

Spells: 10

3 Mox Diamond
1 Warping Wail
1 Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void

Creatures: 24

4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia 1.0
4 Thalia 2.0
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher

SB: 15

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Rest in Peace
3 Dismember
2 Warping Wail
2 Winter Orb

If interested, I can post my sideboard plan. This list is currently 16-3 against miracles on mtgo 2 man tournaments and it feels great having the miracles so much in my favor. Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated. Also if I shouldn't post this here, let me know.

Cheers,

Rmosto

Nice list!
I'd like to try something similar...
Have you tested displacers?
I'm interested in the manabase too: have you tried different configurations? are the temples efficient enough?




Inviato dal mio iPad utilizzando Tapatalk

[iatee]

There should probably be a White Eldrazi thread. The deck is almost exactly 50% DnT, 50% Eldrazi, so it's not a great fit for either thread. Overall I think it's a little closer to Eldrazi than DnT because it's still a Chalice stompy deck and not an Aether Vial deck.

[Dice_Box]

I agree. If someone is willing to write up a primer I will place it where it needs to be.

[Barook]

We could also open up a new thread. My name suggestion is "Eldrazi Taxes", or short, "E.T.", which fits the alien theme of the Eldrazi, :tongue:

@Rmosto: Interesting list, but a couple of questions:

- Are 2 Wastelands enough?
- Have you tried out Eldrazi Displacer? It's one of the strongest Eldrazi cards and should be in there, too, imho.
- How has Winter Orb been in the SB, especially with Thalia 2.0?

[NeckBird]

Oh my fucking god

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33482_.html

Recruiter of the Guard

2W

Creature- Human Soldier

When Recruiter of the Guard enters the battlefield, you may search your library for a creature card with toughness two or less, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

She is going to make mono white D&T absolutely insane.

[iatee]

Yep, that card is stronger than Imperial Recruiter even. Gets Flickerwisp and new Thalia, among other things.

[Medea_]

Welp, I will now likely be ceasing testing Eldrazi taxes to work on the new mono white list. XOXOXOX <3 You, WotC.

[Barook]

Yep, that card is stronger than Imperial Recruiter even. Gets Flickerwisp and new Thalia, among other things.
I can't even fathom yet how good that card is.

It can summon a flyer army all by itself by grabing Flickerwisp --> flicker it --> grabing Flickerwisp, etc. and helps rebuilding easily after a Terminus. Not to mention Mangara as tutor target is alot more viable now that you don't have to gimp your manabase with red.

[hill_giant]

That card is insane. I haven't played D&T for a while, but that is so good that I'll have to try it.

[Finn]

Tee Hee. This is going to be fun.

[iatee]

Hope you guys all realize that your Miracles matchup just went to like 75%-25%.

People need to start doing research on powerful x/2s at the 1/2/3 spots.

Also I think the benefits of a splash are still there, but while Red was pretty clearly the most powerful splash until now as it was the only one with this effect, it might not be the best splash color now. When you splash you gain access to thousands of new tutor targets, so the question is what colors have the strongest x/2s.

[Cire]

People need to start doing research on powerful x/2s at the 1/2/3 spots.
.

Literality this entire Deck :laugh:

[Barook]

Hope you guys all realize that your Miracles matchup just went to like 75%-25%.

People need to start doing research on powerful x/2s at the 1/2/3 spots.

Also I think the benefits of a splash are still there, but while Red was pretty clearly the most powerful splash until now as it was the only one with this effect, it might not be the best splash color now. When you splash you gain access to thousands of new tutor targets, so the question is what colors have the strongest x/2s.
Green has access to Noble Hierarch to power it out faster. KotR and Pridemage are the most important targets. Reclamation Sage is also nice to have in the board, as is Gaddock Teeg somewhere in the 75.

Blue has V. Clique, TNN (both very blue heavy), Meddling Mage, Geist of Saint Traft.

Black has Bob, Tidehollow Sculler and Orzhov Pontiff. Edit: It also grabs Shriekmaw or those 3/1 all players sac a creature Zombies for :2::b:.

[MasterBlaster]

People need to start doing research on powerful x/2s at the 1/2/3 spots.

The on color cards that came to mind to run as a singleton maindeck are Aven Mindcensor, Ethersworn Canonist, Samurai of the Pale Curtain, True Believer, and maybe a Glowrider so we can functionally have 2 little Thalias in play at once.

A green splash would certainly give some good pieces.

[colo]

The new Recruiter is obviously completely bonkers. I can see this pushing D&T over the (or at least some kind of) top.

Red still gives Magus of the Moon, which can end games on the spot. However, Blue provides a number of tutrable 3CMC critters that do much of what D&T wants additional creatures to do...

These are damn interesting times.

[Barook]

It also fetches Spirit of the Labyrinth. Can't wait for the Vial @3 Recruiter fetching Spirit with a second Vial @2 in response to an opposing Brainstorm. :eek:

[Dice_Box]

Tee Hee. This is going to be fun.

Says you... I am a little bit fearful of what this will do now you can find that new Thalia more often.

[NeckBird]

Hope you guys all realize that your Miracles matchup just went to like 75%-25%.

People need to start doing research on powerful x/2s at the 1/2/3 spots.

Also I think the benefits of a splash are still there, but while Red was pretty clearly the most powerful splash until now as it was the only one with this effect, it might not be the best splash color now. When you splash you gain access to thousands of new tutor targets, so the question is what colors have the strongest x/2s.

Potential Cards:

Celestial Crusader (tutorable -X/-X protection, while being a flyer and essentially uncounterable)

Kor Skyfisher (absolutely insane, but unfortunately can't be tutored)

Whitemane Lion (Kor Skyfisher that can be tutored and no flying)

Blade Splicer (Just good value)

Hokori, Dust Drinker (What? Is Tutorable Winter Orb good in a mana denial deck?)

Stonecloaker (Exile a card, and bounce recruiter for value)

[colo]

Stonecloaker is a real possibility; it's a Flickerwisp on steroids for this card. It's one of those critters I always wished for being 2/2 while playing Imperial.

[iatee]

I've tried most of those in RW by now. The Kor Skyfisher effect is quite good, Hokori, Dust Drinker not so much.

I think Stonecloaker is absolutely a card you want a one-of in your 75 now, that's a good catch.

[RobNC]

The new Recruiter has already sold out of preorders on SCG. Article went up at 11:00; by 11:30 there were 23 left at $15, by 12:00 there were 12 left at $18, and now at 12:05 there are none :frown:

At least it's at normal rarity and not Mythic, hopefully it comes down a bit after launch.

[Dice_Box]

http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=1259875

31 on offer for 18.

[Finn]

For mana curve and playability purposes, we should try to have as many 2-drops as possible for our targets. This card is already going to clog up the high end. We have an awful lot of pruning to do. What to cut?

Well, taking my list from the OP as a starting point...


4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull


Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest In Peace
2 Enlightened Tutor


...I am going to start off trimming:

-1 Mangara (it sure seems like 1 Mangara of Corondor is now the obvious number for this deck)
-1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
-1 Flickerwisp
-1 Phyrexian Revoker
+3 Recruiter of the Guard
+1 Banisher Priest

Yes, I am starting out conservatively. I like trimming Flickerwisp actually. It is a great topdeck and not nearly as strong earlier in the game. Naturally there are lots of silver bullets that deserve consideration, even just in white. We are going to have to figure out which ones are handy to tutor for - and not just to have in your opening grip. All the talk of this card making a splash more valuable is the reverse of true. This card makes a splash less necessary.

[Barook]

Stonecloaker is a real possibility; it's a Flickerwisp on steroids for this card. It's one of those critters I always wished for being 2/2 while playing Imperial.
Excellent catch - another flyer, doesn't die to -1/-1 effects, recycle-bounce AND GY hate in one nice package. Back to the roots!

The real problem with the new Recruiter is fitting in all the cool cards into a single deck, though.

@Finn: No tutorable Crusader?

[Dice_Box]

Are you sure that 4 Karakas is the right number? Sorry if it feels like I am barging in and asking a noob question since this is not my deck, but 4 lands than kill themselves seems like a conflict.

[RobNC]

Are you sure that 4 Karakas is the right number? Sorry if it feels like I am barging in and asking a noob question since this is not my deck, but 4 lands than kill themselves seems like a conflict.

He grabbed the list from the original post which has 4.

[iatee]

For mana curve and playability purposes, we should try to have as many 2-drops as possible for our targets. This card is already going to clog up the high end. We have an awful lot of pruning to do. What to cut?

Yes, I am starting out conservatively. I like trimming Flickerwisp actually. It is a great topdeck and not nearly as strong earlier in the game. Naturally there are lots of silver bullets that deserve consideration, even just in white. We are going to have to figure out which ones are handy to tutor for - and not just to have in your opening grip. All the talk of this card making a splash more valuable is the reverse of true. This card makes a splash less necessary.

Having played with 3/4 Recruiters for more than a year now, I can say I disagree on the 2 drop targets. The powerful situation is Vial at 3, Vial in the Recruiter, Vial in the target. If your silver bullet is a 2 drop that you have to cast, it risks getting countered, which is a huge tempo blowout. Caverns help mitigate this risk, so human targets are also better.

At least one Flickerwisp should be replaced with Stonecloaker I think. THC does not need to be a 4-of or Mangara a 2-of.

Here are things I think should be one-ofs in the main for potential lists:

Banisher Priest
Stonecloaker
Mangara
Wingmare
Mirran Crusader

That's roughly what my RW main-tutorboard looks like now, with a Skyfisher instead of a Stonecloaker and a Fiend Hunter instead of a Banisher Priest. Worth noting that the deck is going to get a little softer to Punishing Fire since you don't really want to play x/3s.

[Hencules]

I'll try:
4 mom

4 thalia gt
4 sfm
2 revoker
1 leonin relic-warder

3 flickerwisp
3 new guy
1 mirran crusader
1 banisher priest
1 mangara
2 thalia hc

4 plow
7 artifacts

2 cavern
10 plains
4 waste
4 port
3 karakas


As I'm looking at it right now, the curve sucks :(

[iatee]

That curve sucks for non-Vial games but is actually much stronger for Vial games. It roughly evens out.

[iatee]

Here's my first attempt at a mono-w list:

3 mom
4 thalia gt
4 sfm
2 revoker
1 spirit of the lab
1 stonecloaker
2 flickerwisp
4 recruiter
1 mirran crusader
1 banisher priest
1 mangara
1 thalia hc
1 wingmare

Could see squeezing 1 Magus of the Moon in this list off 3 Caverns and 0 Plateau. 4 Vial + 3 Cavern is 7 'red sources' (rarely use my Plateau anyway) and Magus solves a lot of problematic matchups (12-Post, Lands). It's a little greedy but the payoff is huge.

[Bahra]

welp there goes Imperial Taxes. Anyways, nice card! That is busted.

[Barook]

Here's my first attempt at a mono-w list:

3 mom
4 thalia gt
4 sfm
2 revoker
1 spirit of the lab
1 stonecloaker
2 flickerwisp
4 recruiter
1 mirran crusader
1 banisher priest
1 mangara
1 thalia hc
1 wingmare

Could see squeezing 1 Magus of the Moon in this list off 3 Caverns and 0 Plateau. 4 Vial + 3 Cavern is 7 'red sources' (rarely use my Plateau anyway) and Magus solves a lot of problematic matchups (12-Post, Lands). It's a little greedy but the payoff is huge.
List looks pretty good, although I'm not sure if you want to drop to only 2 Flickerwisp, even when they're tutorable. Maybe -1 SFM +1 Flickerwisp?

Edit: But then you're still missing out on THC.